August 1, 2025 • 36 mins
Morgan McMonagle is an Irish trauma and vascular surgeon who has been to the heart of some of the world’s most harrowing conflicts. Twice, he has traveled to Gaza, working in hospitals under constant bombardment since the conflict began.What he witnessed goes beyond medicine — it raises questions about humanity, the moral cost of war, and the toll it takes not just on the bereaved and wounded, but on those trying to save them as well.
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(00:00):
Nothing can justify what's goingon in Gaza right now.
No running water, no St. lights,the no food, the horrific
infections, the children waking up paralyzed on one side of
their body from shrapnel. Children waking up and crying
for their mothers labels, wounded child, no surviving
family. This is immoral.
This is unlawful. This needs to be stopped.
(00:21):
The driver we had who brought usout on the last day, he was
Palestinian and his last words to me were anyone left in Gaza
now is either dead or will be dead very soon.
Very chilling words. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Krishna Gurumurthy, and this
is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about
(00:42):
the big ideas in their lives andthe events that have helped
shape them. My guest this week is Morgan
Mcmonagle, an Irish vascular trauma surgeon who's recently
returned from Gaza, where he worked in hospitals under
bombardment. What he witnessed there goes
beyond medicine, raising questions about humanity,
morality and the toll war takes on everyone involved.
(01:02):
Morgan's also been involved in dealing with the aftermath of
major incidents, including the Westminster Bridge attack and
the Grenfell Tower disaster. Welcome.
Thank you for coming. Thank you for having.
Me If you could change the world, how would you change it?
Oh, tough question. I think equity.
I think to create a world that everybody was equal in,
(01:23):
regardless of race, religion, nationality, background, but
also economic equity. I'm I'm a firm believer that the
root of all prejudice and racismis really economic prejudice and
economic racism. What did?
Equity feel like in Gaza when you were there.
Well it it felt non existent. I mean, I'm, I, I can fully see
(01:47):
that I come from an elite part of the world.
I'm a white Caucasian male that gives a certain birth elitism.
And going into Gaza, seeing the world from the other side from
inside out was very eye opening.We have a population of people
in a, in a land roughly the sizeof Manhattan with the, with the
density of roughly London that can't leave without permission.
(02:11):
There's no airport that's functioning.
They are surrounded by a anotherstate that controls what they
do, what they eat, what they drink, where they go.
And yet, and yet they are certainly before the war they
were thriving. So there's a mismatch in the
(02:33):
it's, it's disproportionate, themismatch in how the Palestinian
people have been treated for a long time and are continuing to
be treated compared to the rest of the world.
Do you think this you've been toGaza twice?
Yes. In this conflict, Yes.
Do you think this time you were there when you came under
bombardment? We spoke to you on the news.
(02:55):
Did it politicize you a bit more?
Yes, and it's always a concern when you're a healthcare worker
or a humanitarian worker and yougo in because the four pillars
are independence, humanity, impartiality, and neutrality.
And regardless of who you are orwhere you are, you're there to
provide humanitarian assistance to relieve the suffering of the
population, regardless of your own.
(03:16):
And everyone has prejudices. But regardless of that, you try
to set them aside, and you should set them aside.
The problem is people like you, journalists, are the experts at
bringing back evidence from any conflict zone around the world
and they're not allowed in. So I felt when I left that there
was an element of, well, I'm notgoing to advocate for right or
(03:37):
wrong, but what I can advocate, advocate for is the truth.
And that's where I feel is the responsibility of a lot of
healthcare workers. And I'm not the only one that we
do feel the need to speak up and.
We put you in that position, I suppose, because we're not
there. We've relied a lot on healthcare
workers to try and give us an impartial view of the the
realities. But not just that, but if you
(03:59):
look at any human rights situation, the right to freedom,
free speech is always held very high in in human rights and in
civil rights in this country as well.
And journalism always gets a very special corner of the right
to free speech. Yet that's been denied.
And therefore you are denying anentire population of people the
right to, to, to say what's going on.
(04:20):
And all you can do is report thefacts.
All you can do is report what you see.
As regards blame, that's something that should be left to
the courts in any situation. But certainly as regards
evidence, I can, I can certainlyspeak for the truth as to what I
saw and to what I was told. When you got there and started
living there, did you feel that you hadn't heard the truth?
(04:42):
You know, did did you get there and go, gosh, people don't
actually know what's going on here?
I had been there in 2024 and I was in a field hospital in Rafa
and that was before the Israeli forces had occupied southern,
southern Gaza. So we were a little bit remote,
although the Israeli forces werevery close to the field hospital
we were in. When I went back, I couldn't
believe the amount of destruction that had happened.
(05:04):
And really, and, and even thoughI I have a video and
photographic evidence, it doesn't do justice to what the
human eye can see and take in. Now.
There was a ceasefire arm when Iwent in in February.
And so some supplies had come in, some medical supplies, some
food and some water had come in.And things seemed to be changing
slowly. The Palestinian population were
getting on the things. They were on their third wave of
(05:27):
polio and measles vaccination atthat stage.
So there were very industrial type type of people.
We took a drive from Kan Yunis up to Gaza City.
And I really, I really can't emphasize just how destroyed
everything was, with the exception of the main roads.
Some Palestinians had said to meat the time that they're not
allowed, despite being allowed to bring in medical supplies and
(05:48):
clothes and food. They weren't allowed to bring in
anything to fix things, to fix electricity, to fix the roads,
to fix St. lighting. So there was a certain
foreboding that was still there that the conflict was going to
restart again as a result. And what does it make you feel
about humanity when you see destruction on that scale as a
(06:10):
humanitarian? It, it makes me feel angry that
we, the Western world, are standing by allowing and
allowing it to happen. I think Europe, not just the
European Union, but Europe and Britain, I think we've let
ourselves down. I mean, you have to remember
that many of the of the sort of charters and laws and agreements
(06:33):
that we've reached since World War 2, because on the mantra
that we'll never allow this happen again, we are allowing to
happen again. And even even recently that the
High Court in Britain said it was, it was, they didn't find
any fault that it was perfectly lawful to send components for
(06:53):
weaponry to be used in Gaza. Now they are paying deference to
parliamentary superiority to a certain degree.
And I'm certainly in no positionto call out a learner judge on
the right or wrong of that law. But I what I would ask the
listeners is, is it moral or is,is any law, is the law any law
(07:14):
at all if it's not moral? So if you look at the morality
of what these components have been used for in the Middle
East, it's certainly not moral. You know, one of the one of the
greatest things to come out of this country, not just The
Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen,
David Bowie, one of the greatestthings is actually the common
law because the common law is based on reasonability and
(07:36):
proportionality. So I would love to stand up in
Westminster and ask people, do you think it's reasonable and
proportionate what is happening regardless of who's right and
who's wrong part that just look at the responsibility.
Is it proportionate? Is it reasonable and is it
moral? And if the answer to those three
questions is no, then something has to be done.
(07:59):
People have to stop what's goingon in Gaza at the moment, call a
ceasefire and then sort out the right and wrong after.
When you come back and life is getting on as normal and people
are wandering into cafes and drinking coffee and going on
holiday and buying, you know, suntan cream.
Yeah. What?
(08:20):
What? How do you react to that?
You know, how do you deal with that?
Yeah. When you come from such a
dystopian. You can very quickly you can.
You can very quickly get on withyour life and forget about it.
But I did on on this occasion. I felt compelled, along with a
lot of my colleagues who were there.
We felt compelled. We had to speak up for the
truth, for what's going on because things are so bad or so
(08:41):
poor. I mean, nothing can, can
justify, nothing can justify what's going on in Gaza right
now. So when you see people getting
on I, I, I think there's a certain naivety because life
goes on with mortgages to pay, with bills to pay, with kids to
drop the school relationships toget on with, work to get on
with. So it's very quickly things can
(09:02):
get forgotten about. And like Gaza isn't the only
conflict going on around the world.
The Ranga population are, are still being terrorised.
Sudan has been terrorised. The war is still going on in
Ukraine and you can quickly get on with just ordinary life and
you can forget very quickly. And I think it's our job as
healthcare workers because the media aren't there to try and
keep it alive, to try and keep it alive in the hope and, and,
(09:26):
and I, I am losing a certain amount of hope that Europe will
do something about it. I, I, I don't think America is
and they should because again, going back to that birthright
elitism that we have in the West, we have a responsibility.
We're the ones who made the agreements.
We're the ones who made the Romestatues, the the Geneva
(09:46):
Conventions, European Convention, human rights.
We made, we are the ones who made them to agree to.
And yet we're not really in a ina meaningful way, ensuring that
they are being upheld around theworld.
Why? Why do you do this?
It's I think. Maybe we should start with what?
Why? Why you a vascular trauma
(10:07):
surgeon? I mean that that is literally
the blood and guts work of dramatic medicine, yes.
So I train, I train as a vascular surgeon in the West
Midlands here in the UK and thenin Australia.
And then I went to America and did a a trauma fellowship in
Philadelphia. And I think it takes a certain
amount of grit, certain a certain style to your
personality that you want to work in a situation where you
(10:29):
have to make big, bold decisionsvery rapidly to get, you know, a
good outcome. And I had worked in Queen
Elizabeth Hospital in, in Birmingham in, I think it was
2008, 2009, at the height of thenumber of British, young British
soldiers coming back injured from the Afghan Iraqi war that
had happened at that time. And I, I do remember thinking
(10:51):
that, that a, it's not right. These young men and women were
coming back with the most horrific injuries that were,
that were life changing. They're absolutely life
changing. And I was certainly very
supportive of, of them, even though I was not necessarily
supportive of the war and the conflict.
You, you can support the warriors that are supporting the
(11:12):
war. And I think from there it, it
just lit a spark. And when I went to Saint Mary's
Hospital, I met one of my mentors, David Knott, who has
been a huge influence on the, on, on doing this style of work.
And you get for me, you, I do get a great sense of
satisfaction being involved in something bigger than myself.
(11:33):
And I and, and that's, that goesback to maybe the original
question of equity, that maybe if all of us looked at doing
something that was bigger than ourselves, the world might be a
better place. I mean, I suppose if I was your
dad, I might say yes. But son, you know, every life is
the same. You can, you can save a life,
you know, run over by a car in Waterford and it has the same
(11:57):
value as the life you're saving in Gaza.
But you, you've chosen to go to dangerous places.
And, and we do both, you know, whether it's a life in London or
life in Ireland or life in Gaza.So, yeah, I have chosen to put
myself in a situation that brings me a certain level of
satisfaction because everybody wants to a good job no matter,
(12:18):
no matter what. But the devastate, I mean, the
injuries I, I, I was seen in Gaza amongst children and women
were as horrific, if not more horrific than the injuries I was
seeing in the young soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and
Iraq in Selyoke Hospital. So I think it's important, I, I
think it's really important thatthe world realizes that because
(12:39):
you can very easily forget, you can call it propaganda if you
wish. And it goes back again to what I
said is, is a law, any law at all, if it's not a moral law?
Because don't forget every single law that was passed by
the 3rd Reich in, in late 1930s Germany was lawful.
Everything was lawful because the executive needed to ratchet
(13:01):
the courts within their own goals and aims.
They needed to justify and make lawful anything they did to the
Jewish population and and more in Central Europe in the 1930s.
It was lawful. We need to stand up for that.
Going back to again what I said about the common law, what would
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a reasonable person think? Would a reasonable person
believe that it's OK to have to open a four year old child's
abdomen and and chest at the same time?
Stop bleeding and they die? Wave after wave of children
coming in, mostly dead, cold anddead, some in parts, some in
tact. The gender based violence, the
dehumanisation, the debasement, The no running water, no St.
(13:45):
lights, the no food, the horrific infections.
The children waking up paralysedon one side of their body from
shrapnel. Children waking up and crying
for their mothers labeled a, youknow, wounded child.
No surviving family, you know, WCNSF, but no surviving family,
no parent or crying for their mothers and and they're now an
orphan as well on top of everything else.
(14:06):
If a reasonable person can standback and say this is immoral,
this is unlawful, this needs to be stopped.
You don't need to be a legal mind to do it.
You don't need to be humanitarian, you just need to
be a reasonable person. The man and woman and the clap
and omnibus. People always wonder how medics
in that situation, the, the, youknow, the Palestinian medics as
(14:27):
well as visiting medics, you know, don't collapse from PTSD
or just go mad from what they'redealing with.
I mean, how do you explain that?Is it that you are basically so
busy doing what you're doing, doing your job?
So you're in survival mode. And so the the night that
National Hospital was was targeted, I was there.
I was on the 4th floor. I was in the intensive care unit
(14:47):
and the entire building shook. Looked out the window and saw
there was fire on the 2nd floor.So the first thing I did was
when it went into survival mode,check where the fire escapes
were, make sure my friends and colleagues I was with were OK.
The Palestinians couldn't have been nicer.
They were more concerned for us than than anything else.
That gave me a glimpse into the life of a regular, everyday
(15:09):
Palestinian. For the last 20 months, 21
months, They've been living in that same survival mode every
single day since then. I don't recall being scared.
I definitely had an element of anticipatory anxiety, but I was
in survival mode. I was focused.
Situational awareness is probably the best, the best way
to put it, which is something that you do in surgery,
especially vascular surgery and trauma surgery, because disease
(15:33):
is very unpredictable. Things can go wrong very
quickly. So you need to maintain
situational awareness. So that was, that's probably the
best, the best way to describe what I was in.
People do react differently afterwards.
It's only afterwards when you come out of a force majeure that
you and, and we were warned thatby some of our clinical
psychologists who were part of our team said to us that when
(15:53):
there's a ceasefire, and remember we went in while the
ceasefire was still holding. A lot of the Palestinians will
now start to suffer mental health issues because they look
back and think how much their lives have changed, how much
they've lost, how much destruction, how much they have
to do. But while the war is going on,
everyone's in survival mode, looking for food, looking to
protect your children, looking to get on with everyday life
shelter. I think when healthcare workers
(16:15):
come out of a healthcare zone ora conflict zone like that, they
do react in different ways. I know some people have been
very upset and they want to go back.
I think my go to has been a combination of anger and guilt.
I felt quite angry that we are allowing it to happen.
And I say we, you know, I'm partof the Western world as well.
And a lot of guilt that I was leaving a lot of very good
colleagues behind. I was leaving human beings
(16:37):
behind. I mean, human rights are based
on one premise, 1 premise only, the fact that we are human, that
is it, that is it. And everything else stems from
that. And they too are also human
beings. And the driver we had who
brought us out on the last day, we were exiting into, into
Israel from Gaza. His last words to me were, and
it was kind of tongue in cheek, but kind of not.
(16:59):
And he had a diplomatic passportbut wasn't allowed to leave.
He worked for the UN. He was Palestinian.
And his last words to me were anyone left in Gaza now was
either dead or will be dead verysoon.
Very chilling words. How are you able to think about
the humanity of the people who are sending the bombs over the
Israelis? Well.
(17:19):
Europe is also supplying arms, North America is supplying arms.
So I think we have a shared responsibility.
I don't think it's not just Israel, although they may be
launching them, but we're supporting it.
I, I don't know, I'm not a security expert, but I don't
believe they could do it withoutthe support of the West of
(17:39):
Europe and North America. Not just to supply them with the
equipment to do it, but also with the political permission,
permission slip. So I think we all have a certain
element of responsibility there and it comes and there's a lot
of people making a lot of money off the arms trade, I suppose.
What I mean is, as somebody who deals with the situation when a
(18:00):
life is lost, do do you think the people who take the
decisions to take a life potentially or support it?
Yeah. As part of their national
identity? Yeah.
Understand what it is that. Is happening, they know oh for
sure they know. I mean it's not an even fight.
(18:21):
It's it's not a war, it's conflict.
So you've got a population essentially of civilians and you
might say there are terrorists amongst the civilians versus
what is considered a sovereign state that is a nuclear state.
That is the most sophisticated army in the world next to maybe
North America and the USA. They know what they're doing and
(18:43):
they know the destruction that those bombs can do and are
doing. Absolutely.
I do also believe that when you get into a situation like that,
that both sides become dehumanized.
There's no doubt whatsoever thatthe aggressors have dehumanized
the Palestinian population. And that's what happens.
(19:03):
It's it's kind of natural. If you look at any genocide that
has happened like Rwanda or a genocide of World War 2 or
happened in the former Yugoslavia, you dehumanize, You
don't look at the population as humans anymore, but you also to
a certain degree, dehumanize yourself to be able to do it, to
be able to go in there and kill people and not care and almost
(19:26):
get, get a thrill out of it. Because like I said, everybody
comes to work to do a good job and a good job there is to kill
the enemy. And, and again, that goes back
to to what I said about about equity.
If, if the whole world was equal, we wouldn't dehumanize
each other, you know, we wouldn't look at a population as
being somewhat subhuman. And, and I mean, you, you
(19:50):
mentioned the Hamas operation inGaza while you were there.
I mean, again, people, people say, well, what's the, what's
the truth about this? You know, when you're there and
you're being asked by journalists, are there Hamas
people in the hospital? And you say no.
Is that the truth or is that what you have to say because
they are there? No, look, I don't know.
We go in impartial Nobody, nobody comes up to me to up to
(20:14):
me, up to anybody and say hi. I'm a commander in this
terrorist organization. I mean, that's, that's the whole
idea of being part of an organization.
It's all a bit, you know, subverted and it's all a bit
underhanded and covert. So I don't, I don't know.
But that still doesn't justify targeting healthcare workers and
a population of civilians. Nothing justifies that.
That's a slightly different question.
(20:35):
What I suppose I'm getting at isdid you also find yourself
blaming and being angry with theHamas pillars within Gaza that
you know, to some degree a part of what's going on?
Yeah, to, to a certain degree again, the, the proportion of
(20:55):
how much they're now now responsible is should come out
in the evidence. Evidence can only be gathered if
people are allowed in who are expert at gathering evidence,
whether it's United Nations or journalists.
So, so I don't know. It's not really my role to
gather at that level of evidence.
All I can say is the injuries I saw were caused by the Israeli
(21:17):
forces. The the blame is something that
that needs to be done by a much at a much higher level in this
country. It would be the judiciary.
I guess in a international conflict, it should be the
International Criminal Court. But of course, compliance with
the International Criminal Courtmeans you have to agree to it.
(21:38):
And the two most powerful, the three most powerful nations in
the world right now are not signed up to it.
So, so there's no compliance. So, so it gives people almost a
carte blanche to do what they want with, with impunity when it
comes to terrorism. I mean, there's no actual
definition of terrorism. I mean, probably, I think it's
the United Nations and I, I, I could be wrong on this, uh,
(21:59):
General Assembly resolution. I think it's 4960.
It talks about if you intentionally or or calculatedly
create a state of terror amongsta population or a group within a
population for whatever reason, religion, national, idealistic,
ethnic, whatever your whatever your reason is, I'd ask you
which side is causing terror right now.
(22:23):
How many foreign doctors would have been in Gaza when you?
Were there, oh God, in Gaza in total, I don't know in, in my
group in NASA hospital at that time, there was probably about
16 of us at that time from a combination of USAUK and Jordan.
(22:45):
They were mostly from Islamic backgrounds who obviously felt a
need and a calling to go back toGaza.
And that's understandable. There were so many non Islamic
people like myself there. But I think if I think if word
got out properly showing the destruction that's going on, I
(23:06):
think people will be morally obliged to sign up and go and go
to Gaza. I mean, I saw a lot more people
in Ukraine when I was there fromthe NHS in North America.
And I can't really understand why, why are, and I'm, I'm a
great believer in supporting Ukraine.
I've been there and I'm involvedin training Ukrainian surgeons
(23:27):
and war surgery. But it's very disproportionate,
the West's response to Ukraine than it is to Gaza.
And I think I feel my own, just purely my opinion.
There's an element of prejudice.And then maybe again goes back
to your original question, if there's more equity in the
world, then we wouldn't be seeing this disproportionate
(23:50):
response. Prejudice against Muslims or
Arabs or all of the above I. Think prejudice.
I mean, it depends what you meanby prejudice.
Prejudice against anybody who doesn't look like us, who
doesn't behave like us, who doesn't believe in the same
beliefs. No idea of equity is that you
can live your life and I can live mine, within reason of
(24:10):
course. You can't just do whatever you
want. I think it's very, very
unfortunate that if you speak out for the truth and you speak
out for humanity against what's going on in Gaza, you can very
quickly get tarnished with the stain of being an anti Semite.
And that stain is very appears to be indelible.
In my own country, Ireland is already being labeled as an anti
(24:34):
anti-Semitic country, which is absolutely not true.
If you go back and look at the facts and our history, it is
absolutely not true. We used to have in our
constitution used to be one of the articles in our constitution
that specifically made referenceto the Jewish congregation in
Ireland, just as a as an aside as an example.
But yes, we think it's very easyto name.
(24:55):
Call. Are you being accused of
anti-Semitism having spoken out?Not directly.
I, I haven't, I haven't receiveda huge amount of backlash.
I must say. I've looked on social media and
in general, if somebody says they must stop what they're
doing at the moment, call a ceasefire immediately somebody
(25:16):
is labeled an anti Semite or a supporter of Hamas.
I mean it, it's a supporter of humanity.
It's a supporter of human rights, which is a completely,
completely separate subject thanthan the issue of blame.
It's about truth. And, and So what, what do you
think is going on there in termsof the, the, the the, the
(25:37):
labeling of people as anti-Semitic if they speak out?
I think it's disingenuous. I think it's lazy.
It's easy. I think it's part.
I think it's part of of us. Nobody likes to admit they're
wrong. Nobody, nobody likes to face
certain truths about themselves.And if you believe, if you have
a, if you carry a certain beliefand somebody shows you evidence
(25:59):
to the contrary, it is difficultas human beings for us to turn
around and say, yes, you're right, I am wrong.
So it's easier. I think it's easier not to
mention lazy, just just to say, well, you must be an anti
Semite. You know, I think that's what it
is. I think it's human nature.
I think, I think we like to protect our own prejudice
because it's something that's formed part of our characters
(26:19):
for a long, long time, not sincebirth, usually since becoming
adults. And how how different is the
situation for you in in Ukraine then?
Does it throw up the same moral questions?
Well, as regards human. Behaviour, you know, I suppose.
Human behaviour. Well, first of all, it it is a
(26:40):
different situation that Ukraine.
Russia is a, is a is a war. It's two sovereign states, both
have armies and both have arms and both the the actual playing
field, the pitch is, is a lot more level.
The infrastructure is still standing in in Ukraine.
There's still rows, there's still St. lighting, there's
still food, there's still hospitals and healthcare.
That is not the situation in Gaza.
(27:01):
So I do think there is a huge moral difference in what's going
on in Ukraine than what's going on in Gaza because there seems
to be a purpose to wipe out the civilian population in Gaza.
This is just from what I can seethat people who are in
humanitarian protected, deconflicted zones are still
(27:22):
being bombed, are still being shot by quad coppers.
They're being starved out. We're seeing we're seeing the
effects of starvation. Things I read about in books in
medical school that only existedin sub-Saharan Africa in the 70s
and 80s are now being seen in Gaza.
So it is not it is not the same situation.
What would you say then to people who are considering
(27:44):
careers in medicine? I mean, are you a particular
type or or or or is this within all doctors?
No, there's, there are so many branches of medicine and there
and this, you know, it it all personalities can do medicine.
I mean, if you, even if you're interested in humanitarian
(28:06):
medicine, you don't have to go to a conflict zone.
I mean, if you look at the big 5killers in sub-saharan
advocates, it's hunger, dirty water and sanitation,
tuberculosis, measles and malaria.
You don't need, you don't need to be a conflict surgeon to to
manage those. And HIV, of course, is a big one
now as well. But the Western world again is
cutting back on funding for those again, our own moral high
(28:29):
horse that we have created, thatwe, that we've described our own
sanctimonious high horse and Tartu free that we've created.
We're not living by, so I would say anybody wants to do
medicine, do it it. There's a certain hunger for
people who want to do medicine that won't go away if you don't
do it. And as you progress through your
career, if you have a draw to humanitarianism, then I would
(28:51):
say there's a huge amount of self satisfaction in this.
You don't have to go to a conflict zone, but if you do, go
with an NGO group that's responsible.
I certainly felt very supported by the NGO group I was with,
notwithstanding the fact that you're still relying on human
error and that you are taking a certain risk by going in,
especially especially in the current conflict, because the
(29:14):
classic standards of humanitarianism that you do not
target, healthcare facilities are not being adhered to.
They're not being adhered to in Ukraine either, but you.
But Gaza is a very small, very small zone in comparison.
In your in your sort of quiet moments now, now that time has
passed, I mean, in interviews you will talk about the four
year old child who you open up and who dies.
(29:36):
I presume that's a very traumatic thing to to witness.
And when you were involved in it, when you're there touching
this child, trying to save him or her, how does that kind of
thing sit with you with time, you know, does it haunt you it?
Does it haunt me? It doesn't go away?
(29:59):
I think every, every healthcare,every doctor and nurse has their
own sort of internal quiet placeof contemplation.
And I've had patients over the years I've I've often thought
about my regular work that doesn't go away.
And that's OK. That's to be expected.
I guess the the level of destruction and inhumanity and
(30:19):
inhuman suffering I saw in Gaza was on a different scale and the
sort of supports you have are always with people who share the
same experience. It's the same as groups that are
designed for maybe you know, people who've had a history of
drug abuse or alcohol abuse or, or violence or how to force
majeure. You get a huge amount of shared
(30:42):
experience support because your loved ones, your family, your
friends, partners, they'll neverreally understand on a visceral
level what you saw or went through.
So that's, that's the first thing I'd say it does help doing
things like this. It helps speaking out about it,
just like people who've gone through a force majeure, for
example, maybe alcohol abuse in the past.
They often go on to careers to help other people from their
(31:04):
experience. So I think speaking out, I, I
honestly, when I went to Gaza last year, I did not think I'd
still be sitting here speaking about it over a year later.
I thought the whole thing would be done and dusted and there
would be a peace process of somesort.
And that doesn't seem to be on the horizon.
If anything, the world seems to be getting worse.
Unfortunately, worse is now in the hands of 3 white Caucasian
(31:26):
men who don't seem to want meaningful peace.
You know, meaningful peace like,like where your, where your
actions reflect your words and, and, and that's a great fear
right now. That's a great fear for all of
us, for all of us. Europe as well.
So will you go back? I would go back, yes.
(31:47):
I don't know if I get back because I've spoken out, you
know, the fact that journalists can't get in.
Healthcare workers have now beenput in a situation to advocate
for what's going on. So.
So. You need to be approved, do you,
by Israel. You need to be before you can go
into Gaza. Yes, yeah.
And they, it's controlled very tightly and we, we don't get a
reason. If you're refused, you're not
(32:07):
given a reason why. So we don't know what the, if
there was any principles of policy attached to it could just
be random. I don't, I don't know.
But yes, I would go back. I think there's a greater need
now than ever for Gaza. If you were to ask me what they
need tonight, other than a ceasefire, they need food and
(32:28):
clean the water. They don't even need healthcare
right now. You know, yes, they need
healthcare, but right now, tonight, they need food.
They're being starved out of it.And again, it's, it's the cynic
in me. It's not even a cynic in me.
But while I was there, I, I should point out that they were
on their third round of measles and, and polio vaccination.
(32:51):
And yes, they couldn't get otherequipment in.
Why would it allowed have those vaccinations?
Well, we know from COVID that infectious diseases does not
respect international barriers. So the cynic in me would say,
well, we're doing polio and measles spilling into Israel so
we better have a vaccination campaign.
(33:13):
But meanwhile, children were dying of hypothermia because
that won't contaminate internationally.
Children are dying of of lack offood.
We were seeing mothers because it's still a very high birth
rate in Gaza and Palestine in general.
We were seeing babies born early, lot of premature babies
and babies small for dates. Classic, classic sort of
(33:34):
signposts of malnutrition and stress, stress of war.
I'll also point out as well, andand this can be fact checked,
that before the war, if you lookat maternal mortality and
neonatal mortality, the death ofyoung babies is also considered
a fairly good signpost of how well the healthcare system is
doing. The maternal mortality after
birth or during birth and the neonatal mortality were better
(33:56):
in Palestine compared to the USAbefore the war.
Well, they they have a very theyhad a very highly.
Educated, very high population, very high high literacy rate,
which is a great reflection on on on can do itness.
So so you know, if if it was a ceasefire, I've no doubt the
Palestinians would manage to rebuild, but it's going to take
(34:18):
a long time. One of the things I did notice
that driving around last year inthe field hospital, we had
scores and scores and scores of children with amputations, some
both legs gone, some both legs and upper limb gone.
I driving around Canyonis in theGaza City, I didn't see any
amputees. So where are they?
They're at home. So the, the entire society has
(34:39):
been turned upside down where where the children as they grow
up would look after elderly patients, The parents, that's
now turned upside down because the parents are now at home
looking after disabled children,while the other children are
having lots of limbs of the onesgoing out collecting water and
food and doing jobs to try and make, you know, get by.
So I think it's going to take a very, very long time if Gaza
(35:01):
survives. And my big fear is it won't I?
Mean we, we haven't even had time really to talk about the
fact that you were involved in the aftermath of the Westminster
Bridge attack and the Grenfell fire and these sort of terrible
disasters as, as I suppose just by virtue of being a specialised
trauma surgeon. Yeah.
In a, in a, in a high sensor, should I, you know, have you
(35:23):
sort of become the, the Kate ad of, of, of travelling doctors?
Do you know, do you, do you attract trouble?
Do I attract? God, I hope not.
I suppose if you put yourself out there enough, you'll,
you'll, you reap what you sow toa certain degree.
(35:45):
I'm, I'm, you know, absolutely happy.
I don't want to say proud because pride is something
that's very elite, very elite for it.
I would say I'm very happy to beinvolved in something bigger.
Like, you know, when some like, like I, I'd rather Westminster
didn't happen or Grenfell didn'thappen.
But being a, you know, it's goodto be, be a part of something
where it does happen. And unfortunately, we live in a
(36:06):
world where we're going to continue to see, you know, major
conflicts and major disasters with climate change and
conflict. And in fact, even WHO have put
out figures that show that there's in the last five years,
there's been a 20% increase in the number of people exposed to
war and conflict in the world. And that goes back to my
(36:26):
original comment, that the biggest form of prejudice and
racism in the world is actually economic.
It's economic apartheid, you know.
Morgan, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. And that's it for this episode
of Ways to Change the World. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
Nothing can justify what's goingon in Gaza right now.
No running water, no St. lights,the no food, the horrific
infections, the children waking up paralyzed on one side of
their body from shrapnel. Children waking up and crying
for their mothers labels, wounded child, no surviving
family. This is immoral.
This is unlawful. This needs to be stopped.
(00:21):
The driver we had who brought usout on the last day, he was
Palestinian and his last words to me were anyone left in Gaza
now is either dead or will be dead very soon.
Very chilling words. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Krishna Gurumurthy, and this
is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about
(00:42):
the big ideas in their lives andthe events that have helped
shape them. My guest this week is Morgan
Mcmonagle, an Irish vascular trauma surgeon who's recently
returned from Gaza, where he worked in hospitals under
bombardment. What he witnessed there goes
beyond medicine, raising questions about humanity,
morality and the toll war takes on everyone involved.
(01:02):
Morgan's also been involved in dealing with the aftermath of
major incidents, including the Westminster Bridge attack and
the Grenfell Tower disaster. Welcome.
Thank you for coming. Thank you for having.
Me If you could change the world, how would you change it?
Oh, tough question. I think equity.
I think to create a world that everybody was equal in,
(01:23):
regardless of race, religion, nationality, background, but
also economic equity. I'm I'm a firm believer that the
root of all prejudice and racismis really economic prejudice and
economic racism. What did?
Equity feel like in Gaza when you were there.
Well it it felt non existent. I mean, I'm, I, I can fully see
(01:47):
that I come from an elite part of the world.
I'm a white Caucasian male that gives a certain birth elitism.
And going into Gaza, seeing the world from the other side from
inside out was very eye opening.We have a population of people
in a, in a land roughly the sizeof Manhattan with the, with the
density of roughly London that can't leave without permission.
(02:11):
There's no airport that's functioning.
They are surrounded by a anotherstate that controls what they
do, what they eat, what they drink, where they go.
And yet, and yet they are certainly before the war they
were thriving. So there's a mismatch in the
(02:33):
it's, it's disproportionate, themismatch in how the Palestinian
people have been treated for a long time and are continuing to
be treated compared to the rest of the world.
Do you think this you've been toGaza twice?
Yes. In this conflict, Yes.
Do you think this time you were there when you came under
bombardment? We spoke to you on the news.
(02:55):
Did it politicize you a bit more?
Yes, and it's always a concern when you're a healthcare worker
or a humanitarian worker and yougo in because the four pillars
are independence, humanity, impartiality, and neutrality.
And regardless of who you are orwhere you are, you're there to
provide humanitarian assistance to relieve the suffering of the
population, regardless of your own.
(03:16):
And everyone has prejudices. But regardless of that, you try
to set them aside, and you should set them aside.
The problem is people like you, journalists, are the experts at
bringing back evidence from any conflict zone around the world
and they're not allowed in. So I felt when I left that there
was an element of, well, I'm notgoing to advocate for right or
(03:37):
wrong, but what I can advocate, advocate for is the truth.
And that's where I feel is the responsibility of a lot of
healthcare workers. And I'm not the only one that we
do feel the need to speak up and.
We put you in that position, I suppose, because we're not
there. We've relied a lot on healthcare
workers to try and give us an impartial view of the the
realities. But not just that, but if you
(03:59):
look at any human rights situation, the right to freedom,
free speech is always held very high in in human rights and in
civil rights in this country as well.
And journalism always gets a very special corner of the right
to free speech. Yet that's been denied.
And therefore you are denying anentire population of people the
right to, to, to say what's going on.
(04:20):
And all you can do is report thefacts.
All you can do is report what you see.
As regards blame, that's something that should be left to
the courts in any situation. But certainly as regards
evidence, I can, I can certainlyspeak for the truth as to what I
saw and to what I was told. When you got there and started
living there, did you feel that you hadn't heard the truth?
(04:42):
You know, did did you get there and go, gosh, people don't
actually know what's going on here?
I had been there in 2024 and I was in a field hospital in Rafa
and that was before the Israeli forces had occupied southern,
southern Gaza. So we were a little bit remote,
although the Israeli forces werevery close to the field hospital
we were in. When I went back, I couldn't
believe the amount of destruction that had happened.
(05:04):
And really, and, and even thoughI I have a video and
photographic evidence, it doesn't do justice to what the
human eye can see and take in. Now.
There was a ceasefire arm when Iwent in in February.
And so some supplies had come in, some medical supplies, some
food and some water had come in.And things seemed to be changing
slowly. The Palestinian population were
getting on the things. They were on their third wave of
(05:27):
polio and measles vaccination atthat stage.
So there were very industrial type type of people.
We took a drive from Kan Yunis up to Gaza City.
And I really, I really can't emphasize just how destroyed
everything was, with the exception of the main roads.
Some Palestinians had said to meat the time that they're not
allowed, despite being allowed to bring in medical supplies and
(05:48):
clothes and food. They weren't allowed to bring in
anything to fix things, to fix electricity, to fix the roads,
to fix St. lighting. So there was a certain
foreboding that was still there that the conflict was going to
restart again as a result. And what does it make you feel
about humanity when you see destruction on that scale as a
(06:10):
humanitarian? It, it makes me feel angry that
we, the Western world, are standing by allowing and
allowing it to happen. I think Europe, not just the
European Union, but Europe and Britain, I think we've let
ourselves down. I mean, you have to remember
that many of the of the sort of charters and laws and agreements
(06:33):
that we've reached since World War 2, because on the mantra
that we'll never allow this happen again, we are allowing to
happen again. And even even recently that the
High Court in Britain said it was, it was, they didn't find
any fault that it was perfectly lawful to send components for
(06:53):
weaponry to be used in Gaza. Now they are paying deference to
parliamentary superiority to a certain degree.
And I'm certainly in no positionto call out a learner judge on
the right or wrong of that law. But I what I would ask the
listeners is, is it moral or is,is any law, is the law any law
(07:14):
at all if it's not moral? So if you look at the morality
of what these components have been used for in the Middle
East, it's certainly not moral. You know, one of the one of the
greatest things to come out of this country, not just The
Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen,
David Bowie, one of the greatestthings is actually the common
law because the common law is based on reasonability and
(07:36):
proportionality. So I would love to stand up in
Westminster and ask people, do you think it's reasonable and
proportionate what is happening regardless of who's right and
who's wrong part that just look at the responsibility.
Is it proportionate? Is it reasonable and is it
moral? And if the answer to those three
questions is no, then something has to be done.
(07:59):
People have to stop what's goingon in Gaza at the moment, call a
ceasefire and then sort out the right and wrong after.
When you come back and life is getting on as normal and people
are wandering into cafes and drinking coffee and going on
holiday and buying, you know, suntan cream.
Yeah. What?
(08:20):
What? How do you react to that?
You know, how do you deal with that?
Yeah. When you come from such a
dystopian. You can very quickly you can.
You can very quickly get on withyour life and forget about it.
But I did on on this occasion. I felt compelled, along with a
lot of my colleagues who were there.
We felt compelled. We had to speak up for the
truth, for what's going on because things are so bad or so
(08:41):
poor. I mean, nothing can, can
justify, nothing can justify what's going on in Gaza right
now. So when you see people getting
on I, I, I think there's a certain naivety because life
goes on with mortgages to pay, with bills to pay, with kids to
drop the school relationships toget on with, work to get on
with. So it's very quickly things can
(09:02):
get forgotten about. And like Gaza isn't the only
conflict going on around the world.
The Ranga population are, are still being terrorised.
Sudan has been terrorised. The war is still going on in
Ukraine and you can quickly get on with just ordinary life and
you can forget very quickly. And I think it's our job as
healthcare workers because the media aren't there to try and
keep it alive, to try and keep it alive in the hope and, and,
(09:26):
and I, I am losing a certain amount of hope that Europe will
do something about it. I, I, I don't think America is
and they should because again, going back to that birthright
elitism that we have in the West, we have a responsibility.
We're the ones who made the agreements.
We're the ones who made the Romestatues, the the Geneva
(09:46):
Conventions, European Convention, human rights.
We made, we are the ones who made them to agree to.
And yet we're not really in a ina meaningful way, ensuring that
they are being upheld around theworld.
Why? Why do you do this?
It's I think. Maybe we should start with what?
Why? Why you a vascular trauma
(10:07):
surgeon? I mean that that is literally
the blood and guts work of dramatic medicine, yes.
So I train, I train as a vascular surgeon in the West
Midlands here in the UK and thenin Australia.
And then I went to America and did a a trauma fellowship in
Philadelphia. And I think it takes a certain
amount of grit, certain a certain style to your
personality that you want to work in a situation where you
(10:29):
have to make big, bold decisionsvery rapidly to get, you know, a
good outcome. And I had worked in Queen
Elizabeth Hospital in, in Birmingham in, I think it was
2008, 2009, at the height of thenumber of British, young British
soldiers coming back injured from the Afghan Iraqi war that
had happened at that time. And I, I do remember thinking
(10:51):
that, that a, it's not right. These young men and women were
coming back with the most horrific injuries that were,
that were life changing. They're absolutely life
changing. And I was certainly very
supportive of, of them, even though I was not necessarily
supportive of the war and the conflict.
You, you can support the warriors that are supporting the
(11:12):
war. And I think from there it, it
just lit a spark. And when I went to Saint Mary's
Hospital, I met one of my mentors, David Knott, who has
been a huge influence on the, on, on doing this style of work.
And you get for me, you, I do get a great sense of
satisfaction being involved in something bigger than myself.
(11:33):
And I and, and that's, that goesback to maybe the original
question of equity, that maybe if all of us looked at doing
something that was bigger than ourselves, the world might be a
better place. I mean, I suppose if I was your
dad, I might say yes. But son, you know, every life is
the same. You can, you can save a life,
you know, run over by a car in Waterford and it has the same
(11:57):
value as the life you're saving in Gaza.
But you, you've chosen to go to dangerous places.
And, and we do both, you know, whether it's a life in London or
life in Ireland or life in Gaza.So, yeah, I have chosen to put
myself in a situation that brings me a certain level of
satisfaction because everybody wants to a good job no matter,
(12:18):
no matter what. But the devastate, I mean, the
injuries I, I, I was seen in Gaza amongst children and women
were as horrific, if not more horrific than the injuries I was
seeing in the young soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and
Iraq in Selyoke Hospital. So I think it's important, I, I
think it's really important thatthe world realizes that because
(12:39):
you can very easily forget, you can call it propaganda if you
wish. And it goes back again to what I
said is, is a law, any law at all, if it's not a moral law?
Because don't forget every single law that was passed by
the 3rd Reich in, in late 1930s Germany was lawful.
Everything was lawful because the executive needed to ratchet
(13:01):
the courts within their own goals and aims.
They needed to justify and make lawful anything they did to the
Jewish population and and more in Central Europe in the 1930s.
It was lawful. We need to stand up for that.
Going back to again what I said about the common law, what would
(13:22):
a reasonable person think? Would a reasonable person
believe that it's OK to have to open a four year old child's
abdomen and and chest at the same time?
Stop bleeding and they die? Wave after wave of children
coming in, mostly dead, cold anddead, some in parts, some in
tact. The gender based violence, the
dehumanisation, the debasement, The no running water, no St.
(13:45):
lights, the no food, the horrific infections.
The children waking up paralysedon one side of their body from
shrapnel. Children waking up and crying
for their mothers labeled a, youknow, wounded child.
No surviving family, you know, WCNSF, but no surviving family,
no parent or crying for their mothers and and they're now an
orphan as well on top of everything else.
(14:06):
If a reasonable person can standback and say this is immoral,
this is unlawful, this needs to be stopped.
You don't need to be a legal mind to do it.
You don't need to be humanitarian, you just need to
be a reasonable person. The man and woman and the clap
and omnibus. People always wonder how medics
in that situation, the, the, youknow, the Palestinian medics as
(14:27):
well as visiting medics, you know, don't collapse from PTSD
or just go mad from what they'redealing with.
I mean, how do you explain that?Is it that you are basically so
busy doing what you're doing, doing your job?
So you're in survival mode. And so the the night that
National Hospital was was targeted, I was there.
I was on the 4th floor. I was in the intensive care unit
(14:47):
and the entire building shook. Looked out the window and saw
there was fire on the 2nd floor.So the first thing I did was
when it went into survival mode,check where the fire escapes
were, make sure my friends and colleagues I was with were OK.
The Palestinians couldn't have been nicer.
They were more concerned for us than than anything else.
That gave me a glimpse into the life of a regular, everyday
(15:09):
Palestinian. For the last 20 months, 21
months, They've been living in that same survival mode every
single day since then. I don't recall being scared.
I definitely had an element of anticipatory anxiety, but I was
in survival mode. I was focused.
Situational awareness is probably the best, the best way
to put it, which is something that you do in surgery,
especially vascular surgery and trauma surgery, because disease
(15:33):
is very unpredictable. Things can go wrong very
quickly. So you need to maintain
situational awareness. So that was, that's probably the
best, the best way to describe what I was in.
People do react differently afterwards.
It's only afterwards when you come out of a force majeure that
you and, and we were warned thatby some of our clinical
psychologists who were part of our team said to us that when
(15:53):
there's a ceasefire, and remember we went in while the
ceasefire was still holding. A lot of the Palestinians will
now start to suffer mental health issues because they look
back and think how much their lives have changed, how much
they've lost, how much destruction, how much they have
to do. But while the war is going on,
everyone's in survival mode, looking for food, looking to
protect your children, looking to get on with everyday life
shelter. I think when healthcare workers
(16:15):
come out of a healthcare zone ora conflict zone like that, they
do react in different ways. I know some people have been
very upset and they want to go back.
I think my go to has been a combination of anger and guilt.
I felt quite angry that we are allowing it to happen.
And I say we, you know, I'm partof the Western world as well.
And a lot of guilt that I was leaving a lot of very good
colleagues behind. I was leaving human beings
(16:37):
behind. I mean, human rights are based
on one premise, 1 premise only, the fact that we are human, that
is it, that is it. And everything else stems from
that. And they too are also human
beings. And the driver we had who
brought us out on the last day, we were exiting into, into
Israel from Gaza. His last words to me were, and
it was kind of tongue in cheek, but kind of not.
(16:59):
And he had a diplomatic passportbut wasn't allowed to leave.
He worked for the UN. He was Palestinian.
And his last words to me were anyone left in Gaza now was
either dead or will be dead verysoon.
Very chilling words. How are you able to think about
the humanity of the people who are sending the bombs over the
Israelis? Well.
(17:19):
Europe is also supplying arms, North America is supplying arms.
So I think we have a shared responsibility.
I don't think it's not just Israel, although they may be
launching them, but we're supporting it.
I, I don't know, I'm not a security expert, but I don't
believe they could do it withoutthe support of the West of
(17:39):
Europe and North America. Not just to supply them with the
equipment to do it, but also with the political permission,
permission slip. So I think we all have a certain
element of responsibility there and it comes and there's a lot
of people making a lot of money off the arms trade, I suppose.
What I mean is, as somebody who deals with the situation when a
(18:00):
life is lost, do do you think the people who take the
decisions to take a life potentially or support it?
Yeah. As part of their national
identity? Yeah.
Understand what it is that. Is happening, they know oh for
sure they know. I mean it's not an even fight.
(18:21):
It's it's not a war, it's conflict.
So you've got a population essentially of civilians and you
might say there are terrorists amongst the civilians versus
what is considered a sovereign state that is a nuclear state.
That is the most sophisticated army in the world next to maybe
North America and the USA. They know what they're doing and
(18:43):
they know the destruction that those bombs can do and are
doing. Absolutely.
I do also believe that when you get into a situation like that,
that both sides become dehumanized.
There's no doubt whatsoever thatthe aggressors have dehumanized
the Palestinian population. And that's what happens.
(19:03):
It's it's kind of natural. If you look at any genocide that
has happened like Rwanda or a genocide of World War 2 or
happened in the former Yugoslavia, you dehumanize, You
don't look at the population as humans anymore, but you also to
a certain degree, dehumanize yourself to be able to do it, to
be able to go in there and kill people and not care and almost
(19:26):
get, get a thrill out of it. Because like I said, everybody
comes to work to do a good job and a good job there is to kill
the enemy. And, and again, that goes back
to to what I said about about equity.
If, if the whole world was equal, we wouldn't dehumanize
each other, you know, we wouldn't look at a population as
being somewhat subhuman. And, and I mean, you, you
(19:50):
mentioned the Hamas operation inGaza while you were there.
I mean, again, people, people say, well, what's the, what's
the truth about this? You know, when you're there and
you're being asked by journalists, are there Hamas
people in the hospital? And you say no.
Is that the truth or is that what you have to say because
they are there? No, look, I don't know.
We go in impartial Nobody, nobody comes up to me to up to
(20:14):
me, up to anybody and say hi. I'm a commander in this
terrorist organization. I mean, that's, that's the whole
idea of being part of an organization.
It's all a bit, you know, subverted and it's all a bit
underhanded and covert. So I don't, I don't know.
But that still doesn't justify targeting healthcare workers and
a population of civilians. Nothing justifies that.
That's a slightly different question.
(20:35):
What I suppose I'm getting at isdid you also find yourself
blaming and being angry with theHamas pillars within Gaza that
you know, to some degree a part of what's going on?
Yeah, to, to a certain degree again, the, the proportion of
(20:55):
how much they're now now responsible is should come out
in the evidence. Evidence can only be gathered if
people are allowed in who are expert at gathering evidence,
whether it's United Nations or journalists.
So, so I don't know. It's not really my role to
gather at that level of evidence.
All I can say is the injuries I saw were caused by the Israeli
(21:17):
forces. The the blame is something that
that needs to be done by a much at a much higher level in this
country. It would be the judiciary.
I guess in a international conflict, it should be the
International Criminal Court. But of course, compliance with
the International Criminal Courtmeans you have to agree to it.
(21:38):
And the two most powerful, the three most powerful nations in
the world right now are not signed up to it.
So, so there's no compliance. So, so it gives people almost a
carte blanche to do what they want with, with impunity when it
comes to terrorism. I mean, there's no actual
definition of terrorism. I mean, probably, I think it's
the United Nations and I, I, I could be wrong on this, uh,
(21:59):
General Assembly resolution. I think it's 4960.
It talks about if you intentionally or or calculatedly
create a state of terror amongsta population or a group within a
population for whatever reason, religion, national, idealistic,
ethnic, whatever your whatever your reason is, I'd ask you
which side is causing terror right now.
(22:23):
How many foreign doctors would have been in Gaza when you?
Were there, oh God, in Gaza in total, I don't know in, in my
group in NASA hospital at that time, there was probably about
16 of us at that time from a combination of USAUK and Jordan.
(22:45):
They were mostly from Islamic backgrounds who obviously felt a
need and a calling to go back toGaza.
And that's understandable. There were so many non Islamic
people like myself there. But I think if I think if word
got out properly showing the destruction that's going on, I
(23:06):
think people will be morally obliged to sign up and go and go
to Gaza. I mean, I saw a lot more people
in Ukraine when I was there fromthe NHS in North America.
And I can't really understand why, why are, and I'm, I'm a
great believer in supporting Ukraine.
I've been there and I'm involvedin training Ukrainian surgeons
(23:27):
and war surgery. But it's very disproportionate,
the West's response to Ukraine than it is to Gaza.
And I think I feel my own, just purely my opinion.
There's an element of prejudice.And then maybe again goes back
to your original question, if there's more equity in the
world, then we wouldn't be seeing this disproportionate
(23:50):
response. Prejudice against Muslims or
Arabs or all of the above I. Think prejudice.
I mean, it depends what you meanby prejudice.
Prejudice against anybody who doesn't look like us, who
doesn't behave like us, who doesn't believe in the same
beliefs. No idea of equity is that you
can live your life and I can live mine, within reason of
(24:10):
course. You can't just do whatever you
want. I think it's very, very
unfortunate that if you speak out for the truth and you speak
out for humanity against what's going on in Gaza, you can very
quickly get tarnished with the stain of being an anti Semite.
And that stain is very appears to be indelible.
In my own country, Ireland is already being labeled as an anti
(24:34):
anti-Semitic country, which is absolutely not true.
If you go back and look at the facts and our history, it is
absolutely not true. We used to have in our
constitution used to be one of the articles in our constitution
that specifically made referenceto the Jewish congregation in
Ireland, just as a as an aside as an example.
But yes, we think it's very easyto name.
(24:55):
Call. Are you being accused of
anti-Semitism having spoken out?Not directly.
I, I haven't, I haven't receiveda huge amount of backlash.
I must say. I've looked on social media and
in general, if somebody says they must stop what they're
doing at the moment, call a ceasefire immediately somebody
(25:16):
is labeled an anti Semite or a supporter of Hamas.
I mean it, it's a supporter of humanity.
It's a supporter of human rights, which is a completely,
completely separate subject thanthan the issue of blame.
It's about truth. And, and So what, what do you
think is going on there in termsof the, the, the the, the
(25:37):
labeling of people as anti-Semitic if they speak out?
I think it's disingenuous. I think it's lazy.
It's easy. I think it's part.
I think it's part of of us. Nobody likes to admit they're
wrong. Nobody, nobody likes to face
certain truths about themselves.And if you believe, if you have
a, if you carry a certain beliefand somebody shows you evidence
(25:59):
to the contrary, it is difficultas human beings for us to turn
around and say, yes, you're right, I am wrong.
So it's easier. I think it's easier not to
mention lazy, just just to say, well, you must be an anti
Semite. You know, I think that's what it
is. I think it's human nature.
I think, I think we like to protect our own prejudice
because it's something that's formed part of our characters
(26:19):
for a long, long time, not sincebirth, usually since becoming
adults. And how how different is the
situation for you in in Ukraine then?
Does it throw up the same moral questions?
Well, as regards human. Behaviour, you know, I suppose.
Human behaviour. Well, first of all, it it is a
(26:40):
different situation that Ukraine.
Russia is a, is a is a war. It's two sovereign states, both
have armies and both have arms and both the the actual playing
field, the pitch is, is a lot more level.
The infrastructure is still standing in in Ukraine.
There's still rows, there's still St. lighting, there's
still food, there's still hospitals and healthcare.
That is not the situation in Gaza.
(27:01):
So I do think there is a huge moral difference in what's going
on in Ukraine than what's going on in Gaza because there seems
to be a purpose to wipe out the civilian population in Gaza.
This is just from what I can seethat people who are in
humanitarian protected, deconflicted zones are still
(27:22):
being bombed, are still being shot by quad coppers.
They're being starved out. We're seeing we're seeing the
effects of starvation. Things I read about in books in
medical school that only existedin sub-Saharan Africa in the 70s
and 80s are now being seen in Gaza.
So it is not it is not the same situation.
What would you say then to people who are considering
(27:44):
careers in medicine? I mean, are you a particular
type or or or or is this within all doctors?
No, there's, there are so many branches of medicine and there
and this, you know, it it all personalities can do medicine.
I mean, if you, even if you're interested in humanitarian
(28:06):
medicine, you don't have to go to a conflict zone.
I mean, if you look at the big 5killers in sub-saharan
advocates, it's hunger, dirty water and sanitation,
tuberculosis, measles and malaria.
You don't need, you don't need to be a conflict surgeon to to
manage those. And HIV, of course, is a big one
now as well. But the Western world again is
cutting back on funding for those again, our own moral high
(28:29):
horse that we have created, thatwe, that we've described our own
sanctimonious high horse and Tartu free that we've created.
We're not living by, so I would say anybody wants to do
medicine, do it it. There's a certain hunger for
people who want to do medicine that won't go away if you don't
do it. And as you progress through your
career, if you have a draw to humanitarianism, then I would
(28:51):
say there's a huge amount of self satisfaction in this.
You don't have to go to a conflict zone, but if you do, go
with an NGO group that's responsible.
I certainly felt very supported by the NGO group I was with,
notwithstanding the fact that you're still relying on human
error and that you are taking a certain risk by going in,
especially especially in the current conflict, because the
(29:14):
classic standards of humanitarianism that you do not
target, healthcare facilities are not being adhered to.
They're not being adhered to in Ukraine either, but you.
But Gaza is a very small, very small zone in comparison.
In your in your sort of quiet moments now, now that time has
passed, I mean, in interviews you will talk about the four
year old child who you open up and who dies.
(29:36):
I presume that's a very traumatic thing to to witness.
And when you were involved in it, when you're there touching
this child, trying to save him or her, how does that kind of
thing sit with you with time, you know, does it haunt you it?
Does it haunt me? It doesn't go away?
(29:59):
I think every, every healthcare,every doctor and nurse has their
own sort of internal quiet placeof contemplation.
And I've had patients over the years I've I've often thought
about my regular work that doesn't go away.
And that's OK. That's to be expected.
I guess the the level of destruction and inhumanity and
(30:19):
inhuman suffering I saw in Gaza was on a different scale and the
sort of supports you have are always with people who share the
same experience. It's the same as groups that are
designed for maybe you know, people who've had a history of
drug abuse or alcohol abuse or, or violence or how to force
majeure. You get a huge amount of shared
(30:42):
experience support because your loved ones, your family, your
friends, partners, they'll neverreally understand on a visceral
level what you saw or went through.
So that's, that's the first thing I'd say it does help doing
things like this. It helps speaking out about it,
just like people who've gone through a force majeure, for
example, maybe alcohol abuse in the past.
They often go on to careers to help other people from their
(31:04):
experience. So I think speaking out, I, I
honestly, when I went to Gaza last year, I did not think I'd
still be sitting here speaking about it over a year later.
I thought the whole thing would be done and dusted and there
would be a peace process of somesort.
And that doesn't seem to be on the horizon.
If anything, the world seems to be getting worse.
Unfortunately, worse is now in the hands of 3 white Caucasian
(31:26):
men who don't seem to want meaningful peace.
You know, meaningful peace like,like where your, where your
actions reflect your words and, and, and that's a great fear
right now. That's a great fear for all of
us, for all of us. Europe as well.
So will you go back? I would go back, yes.
(31:47):
I don't know if I get back because I've spoken out, you
know, the fact that journalists can't get in.
Healthcare workers have now beenput in a situation to advocate
for what's going on. So.
So. You need to be approved, do you,
by Israel. You need to be before you can go
into Gaza. Yes, yeah.
And they, it's controlled very tightly and we, we don't get a
reason. If you're refused, you're not
(32:07):
given a reason why. So we don't know what the, if
there was any principles of policy attached to it could just
be random. I don't, I don't know.
But yes, I would go back. I think there's a greater need
now than ever for Gaza. If you were to ask me what they
need tonight, other than a ceasefire, they need food and
(32:28):
clean the water. They don't even need healthcare
right now. You know, yes, they need
healthcare, but right now, tonight, they need food.
They're being starved out of it.And again, it's, it's the cynic
in me. It's not even a cynic in me.
But while I was there, I, I should point out that they were
on their third round of measles and, and polio vaccination.
(32:51):
And yes, they couldn't get otherequipment in.
Why would it allowed have those vaccinations?
Well, we know from COVID that infectious diseases does not
respect international barriers. So the cynic in me would say,
well, we're doing polio and measles spilling into Israel so
we better have a vaccination campaign.
(33:13):
But meanwhile, children were dying of hypothermia because
that won't contaminate internationally.
Children are dying of of lack offood.
We were seeing mothers because it's still a very high birth
rate in Gaza and Palestine in general.
We were seeing babies born early, lot of premature babies
and babies small for dates. Classic, classic sort of
(33:34):
signposts of malnutrition and stress, stress of war.
I'll also point out as well, andand this can be fact checked,
that before the war, if you lookat maternal mortality and
neonatal mortality, the death ofyoung babies is also considered
a fairly good signpost of how well the healthcare system is
doing. The maternal mortality after
birth or during birth and the neonatal mortality were better
(33:56):
in Palestine compared to the USAbefore the war.
Well, they they have a very theyhad a very highly.
Educated, very high population, very high high literacy rate,
which is a great reflection on on on can do itness.
So so you know, if if it was a ceasefire, I've no doubt the
Palestinians would manage to rebuild, but it's going to take
(34:18):
a long time. One of the things I did notice
that driving around last year inthe field hospital, we had
scores and scores and scores of children with amputations, some
both legs gone, some both legs and upper limb gone.
I driving around Canyonis in theGaza City, I didn't see any
amputees. So where are they?
They're at home. So the, the entire society has
(34:39):
been turned upside down where where the children as they grow
up would look after elderly patients, The parents, that's
now turned upside down because the parents are now at home
looking after disabled children,while the other children are
having lots of limbs of the onesgoing out collecting water and
food and doing jobs to try and make, you know, get by.
So I think it's going to take a very, very long time if Gaza
(35:01):
survives. And my big fear is it won't I?
Mean we, we haven't even had time really to talk about the
fact that you were involved in the aftermath of the Westminster
Bridge attack and the Grenfell fire and these sort of terrible
disasters as, as I suppose just by virtue of being a specialised
trauma surgeon. Yeah.
In a, in a, in a high sensor, should I, you know, have you
(35:23):
sort of become the, the Kate ad of, of, of travelling doctors?
Do you know, do you, do you attract trouble?
Do I attract? God, I hope not.
I suppose if you put yourself out there enough, you'll,
you'll, you reap what you sow toa certain degree.
(35:45):
I'm, I'm, you know, absolutely happy.
I don't want to say proud because pride is something
that's very elite, very elite for it.
I would say I'm very happy to beinvolved in something bigger.
Like, you know, when some like, like I, I'd rather Westminster
didn't happen or Grenfell didn'thappen.
But being a, you know, it's goodto be, be a part of something
where it does happen. And unfortunately, we live in a
(36:06):
world where we're going to continue to see, you know, major
conflicts and major disasters with climate change and
conflict. And in fact, even WHO have put
out figures that show that there's in the last five years,
there's been a 20% increase in the number of people exposed to
war and conflict in the world. And that goes back to my
(36:26):
original comment, that the biggest form of prejudice and
racism in the world is actually economic.
It's economic apartheid, you know.
Morgan, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. And that's it for this episode
of Ways to Change the World. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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