September 5, 2025 • 39 mins
Philippa Perry has spent years helping people understand their inner lives, but she believes that something fundamental has shifted in the way we connect. Lockdown, she says, left many young people struggling with social confidence, while the dominance of phones and texting has created “fantasy relationships” that don’t prepare us for the realities of face-to-face communication.
In this episode of Ways to Change the World, Philippa joins Krishnan Guru-Murthy to discuss the hidden costs of social media, the pressures of cancel culture, and why we are so easily drawn to bad news. She explores the dangers of overdiagnosis, the challenge of parenting in a digital age, and why building genuine, flexible relationships matters more than ever in an anxious world.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
People have now got a relationship with their
computers, with their phones. Instead of relating to the
person in front of us, we relatewith the fantasy we have of that
person in our heads. And I worry about that.
You talked about sort of social contagion.
People seem to want a diagnosis for things or a or a label to
(00:21):
give things. I don't think we are any better
since we've had this whole plethora of labels.
Talking about ADHD and what we call neurodiversity.
Social anxiety. We used to call it shy.
(00:43):
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Krishna Guru Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest today is a psychotherapist, broadcaster,
agony aunt and best selling author who helps people untangle
their inner lives with wit and wisdom.
You may know Philippa Perry fromher bestseller The Book You Wish
(01:06):
Your Parents Had Read, her TV appearances alongside her artist
husband Grayson Perry, or from her widely read advice columns
where she explores everything from family dynamics and
emotional resilience to the wayswe connect, or fail to connect
rather, with the people closest to us.
Philippa, welcome. Thank you for having me.
If you could change the world, how would you change it?
(01:28):
That's a very big question. You know, when people write to
me on my column, they come with very specific questions like how
can I get on with my mother-in-law better?
And sometimes I think that how we change the world is in this
these microscopic ways because if we are, say, kind and give
(01:51):
our mother-in-law the benefit ofthe doubt, that will change the
world in a very tiny way, which might then have repercussions.
It might be a Pebble in the pond, but how to change the
world? That's a big one.
I mean, it's a bit like saying how do you change human nature
or how to change the planetary systems or?
(02:14):
Did you think we are getting better or worse at
relationships, as you know, as aspecies, or is it that we talk
about the problems more or that we are actually getting?
Worse, we talk about problems more, and I think there's an
element of social contagion in that, in that people think, oh,
I've got that too. So I'm not sure whether talking
about it more is making it better.
(02:36):
Are we getting better or worse relationships?
I'd say some of us are getting better and a lot of us are
getting worse. And where we're getting worse is
that people have now got a relationship with their
computers, with their phones, with their video games.
(02:56):
And I think sometimes it feels easier to have an evening in
with your screens playing Fortnite or whatever it is you
play. Then it is sort of going to an
event where you'll you'll go into a room and you may only
know two people and they're busy.
And I think people will do what's easiest.
(03:18):
And that can happen to anyone, can't it happen to?
Anyone. Yeah.
Of. Course, yeah, people will do
what's easiest. So it's easier maybe to do quasi
socialising online than it is todo real socialising.
And I worry about that because Ithink we need to keep flexing
(03:39):
our social muscle in real life because as we found out in the
lockdowns, if we don't flex it, it atrophies and we become shyer
and we become less tolerant of that awkwardness.
When you go into the room, you don't think you know anyone.
It took me a while to build up resilience again after lockdown.
(04:01):
I was so looking forward to the first event, which I think was a
book launch I was going to afterlockdown.
I was so looking forward to it. I thought I'm not going to drink
because I want to remember everylittle bit of it.
And I lasted 45 minutes. It was completely overwhelming.
I, I, I couldn't cope. I was so overstimulated after 45
(04:22):
minutes I just had to go for a walk.
And it took me months until I was comfortable flexing my
social muscle again. And I, I know what that
experience was like for me. So imagine a young person who it
was locked down, say, during their university years when they
(04:43):
should have been really learning.
Yeah, and therefore doesn't really know what flexing
socialism. Is I knew at least I had a
groove I could get back into. But if you haven't formed that
groove and this makes me worry about some young people and
relationships, but all people actually, not just young people
because I think when we're face to face with someone, it's
(05:07):
harder to have a fantasy about them because what we tend to do
is instead of relating to the person in front of us, we relate
with the fantasy we have of thatperson in our heads and that
makes us go further apart. And if you talk about how do you
change the world, well, perhaps we have a fantasy about our
(05:29):
enemies as well, rather than getting to know them.
And then we are fighting the demons in our heads and we're
thinking that there are enemy out there.
What sort of things should we dothen?
I mean, you know, if you, if youare that young person who hasn't
got a history of remembering what it was like to socialize
normally, if you like and and you're suddenly sort of your
(05:52):
post pandemic, you're locked in your phone and your devices and
you're in an office, you know, what do you do?
You feel the fear and do it anyway.
You, you can't get over the awkwardness.
You can't get over how unpleasant it feels to feel
awkward, to feel that everybody else has got this except for
you. Because what we tend to do is we
(06:14):
judge our inner world, how we feel inside ourselves by by
comparing it with people's external world.
So I go into a room and I see you looking very competent and
chatting like to a lot of people.
And I think, oh, Chris has really got this.
And I can't do that. But you know, for all I know
(06:36):
you're going, oh God, I don't know what to say.
You know as well. So do.
You think we should be forced tospeak to people rather than text
them? I don't think we should be
forced. I have a daughter who, you know,
who hates being on the phone andshe'd much rather text.
And I kind of go, no, no, no, you've got to speak.
I think if you speak, there's the if you, if you see somebody
(06:59):
face to face, there's less room for making assumptions that are
wrong. If you speak to someone on the
phone, there's more. You can't read somebody's face,
but you can hear their tone. So, you know, there's more, more
chance of getting it wrong. And if you text, well, it's just
practically a fantasy that you're having with the other
(07:21):
person because you can't read what they're saying.
I mean, how many misunderstandings have you had
with a text message? And e-mail same.
Thing. Yeah, yeah.
But that that's a very modern problem, isn't it?
Because people are communicatingmuch more by text than face to
face. I expect it is, yeah.
You talked about sort of social contagion and people, you know,
(07:43):
wanting or or saying I've got that too.
Yeah. I mean, you've, you've written
about this as well, haven't you,That, that people kind of seem
to want a diagnosis for things or, or a label to give.
I don't think that many of the, oh, I've got to be so careful
what I say because people get very upset because their labels
are part of their identity. And I don't want to rub out
(08:05):
anybody's identity, but I don't think we are any better since
we've had this whole plethora oflabels.
I don't think it's making us anybetter.
I think what people are doing are putting themselves in boxes
and thinking I've got that and then that's a full stop.
(08:28):
Whereas if you go, I feel like this and I have this experience,
you can then work on all. How can I make that experience
work for me or be better for me?What sort of things are you
talking about? You talking about ADHD?
What we call social anxiety, we used to call it shy social
(08:48):
anxiety. Anything with disorder or
syndrome I'm a little bit sceptical about because as
Doctor Simi IMI said in his bookSearching for Normal, if you put
disorder behind word, it makes it sound like it's a proper
(09:09):
thing, but it's nothing you can see under the microscope.
It's, it's just a set of behaviours that people have have
clubbed together and decided it's a thing.
I mean, a lot of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, the DSM,
the, the, the big fat textbooks that psychiatrists use was sort
(09:32):
of made-up by a group of about 12 men that would do 4 disorders
before lunch and maybe 3 or 4 after lunch as well.
I think it was like 12 men and one woman coming up with all
these terms for things that go in and out of fashion.
Like homosexuality was in the book to start with.
(09:56):
And you know, things go in and out of fashion because there
isn't any. Proper evidence So.
So why do you think people are often so pleased to be diagnosed
with something? Because it makes sense of how
they feel and it's a a sort of story in a judgement.
And sometimes I think it might be an excuse as well.
(10:18):
For what? For putting my keys in the
fridge, right? Which I have done on occasions
and so if that explains that behaviour then I feel like I'm
not the only one who puts their keys in the fridge when they
should have put them on the peg by the door.
So does this stop us taking responsibility for our own?
(10:38):
Behaviour. I'm worried about that, yeah,
I'm, I'm worried that it does. And it it's, I mean, I don't
know, I mean. It's funny you you said.
You've got to be very careful what you're saying.
And I can feel your tension almost.
Because. Because I got.
Why are you so worried about that?
I got cancelled last time. Why?
What happened? Well, I I talked a bit about one
particular diagnosis and I thought it was being overused.
(11:01):
And then people with that diagnosis, I had a pile on on
social media and said I'm not going to buy her books anymore.
But did it make you think you were wrong?
It made me think I was wrong in the way I did it.
I don't think I was wrong to go.Shall we not question these
diagnosis a bit? And This is why it's so great
(11:24):
that people are now, people thatknow about these things better
than me, are talking a lot more about overdiagnosis, and I'm
very pleased that that is happening.
Because there are. What are the consequences of
overdiagnosis? Because I mean, this is an
argument that sort of spreads way beyond the sort of the, you
know, the, the pages of a, of anagony aunt, you know, in a
(11:45):
newspaper. I mean, it's about the NHS and
resources and benefits and government and all those sorts
of things. I mean, is this a much bigger
issue? Actually, if you give a child,
say, a label, they think and they think there's something
wrong with them. It sort of comes down on them
like a judgement sometimes. And then if we have a judgement,
(12:09):
that's like a full stop. And if we don't have a
judgement, then we can explore and we can go on to, you know,
finding good coping mechanisms or, or growing out of things.
But if you've got a label, you might believe you're incapable
(12:30):
of growing out of something or or growing through it.
Is is there such a thing as normal or or is normal in fact a
range of behaviours? It's very interesting.
I wrote a book called How to Stay Sane.
When I was researching for that book, I found thousands of
(12:52):
definitions of insanity, ways ofbeing abnormal.
I didn't find one definition of normal and what you can do with
all those definitions. You could roughly divide them
into two, and one is leaning towards chaos and the other is
(13:14):
leaning towards rigidity. And I thought, well, maybe the
definition of normal or sane is somewhere between the two, you
know, and I'd like to call it flexible.
So that means that you're not chaotic and all over the place,
but on the other hand your notesnot so rigid that you can't
(13:38):
change a plan if you know something external happens.
So I think of normal and sanity as the ability to organise your
life but not over organise it. Be able to respond in the
moment, but not be in a perpetual state of drama and
(14:03):
chaos. So, so, but are we creating
problems as well in, in the workplace, in in, in healthcare
with the use of these? I'm worried about it.
I've got a friend who is an employer.
She's runs a large publishing house and she takes graduates,
(14:25):
very clever graduates in as you know, trainee editors and
things. And they do very well in
interview. And then once they've done their
three months of whatever it is before you've got your
employment contract, then they have, then they get a diagnosis
of ADHD and then they go, it's not my fault if I'm late because
(14:50):
I've got, I've got this diagnosis.
So you're discriminating againstme if I, if you sack me for
being late, I mean. This is a very common tale
amongst employers and managers now, but it's it's seen as sort
of dreadful, unsympathetic. Yeah, and I behaviour and I
(15:13):
think as well there are, you know, there's people that's that
are really mentally unwell. They're climbing up the walls.
They're bashing their head against the wall.
They're screaming. And there are people who find it
(15:35):
difficult, more difficult than than others to, say, organize
their life. You know, they're a bit on the
chaotic spectrum. The trouble is they're taking up
the resources from people who, you know, can't leave their room
without collapsing or screaming or hurting themselves.
(16:00):
So I feel like it's putting an off.
All these labels are putting a huge strain on the NHS.
Do you? Think we need to toughen up?
Don't like toughen up as a word?I think we need a different way
of thinking about it rather thandiagnosis.
I I want to be sympathetic to people that are, are are having
(16:20):
difficulties, but I'm not sure that putting them in a box and
saying this means that is the way to do it.
Do you think we as a as, as a society respond to, you know,
what's going on outside in termsof our personal happiness?
A lot. You know, we're going through a
very, very chaotic phase in the world at the moment, wars in the
Middle East, Ukraine, Africa, and and that's encroaching on
(16:43):
British politics and the conversation and social media a
lot. Does that 'cause people to be
unhappy and anxious and. We've always found things to be
unhappy and anxious about and whatever period we are in
history, it seems to me that we're not very good at
remembering that quote of you'venever had it so good because,
(17:07):
you know, if it, if it was, you know, it used to be the Cuban
missile crisis. It used to be the Cold War.
I mean, that was terrifying, theCold War when we thought any
minute now we would have to hideunder the table.
Why when a, a nuclear bomb went off.
And now we are worried about, you know, these wars escalating
(17:28):
and, and travelling all over theworld and, and affecting
everyone. And we are devastated about
people starving because some cruel people won't let them get
the food. It is devastating.
But I think if we've got the capacity to be miserable, we
will find an outside justification for that misery.
(17:55):
So I think our misery and our happiness is sort of internal to
quite an extent, and then we find an object external to
ourselves to put it on. So we are the miserable ones,
but we're looking for something to be miserable about.
Yes. What?
Why? Why do we do that Well, And is
it all of us, or is it just someof us?
(18:16):
Oh, I think it is more or less all of us.
I think you are to blame actually.
With your yeah, catastrophizing.It's if you can find the most
catastrophizing headline that isthe one we're going to click on
because we'll get more emotionalmovement from something that's
(18:42):
horrific. I mean, the the reason that the
dog on the skateboard stories happen at the very end is that
they're never going to grab someone to start watching the
news with that. Why?
Why do we have that negativity bias?
Because it's, it's, it's sort of, I think it's because we are
wired to look for ginger becausethere we are, you know, in the,
(19:06):
in the, in the desert, in the Seren, whatever it was called.
The Serengeti. That's.
The one there we are in the Serengeti, this is where we've
evolved from and it's no good looking out for the pretty
flowers. We've got to look out for when
the pack of lions is coming downon us.
We've got to look out for peoplethat and animals that see us as
(19:28):
easy meat. So we are wired to look for
danger. But in a walking here along
Grazing Rd., nobody was going tojump me, you know, Not in broad
daylight anyway. So we so we need to adapt to.
So, so I'm looking out for the headlines or I'm, you know,
scrolling, looking for, we're still looking for danger because
(19:51):
that's what we're sort of evolved to do.
That's how we have survived. That's how we have evolved.
So we are wired to look for danger.
We don't look for the happy stories because the happy
stories aren't a threat. And if we don't look out for
threats, then maybe it will be dangerous.
(20:13):
And do you find yourself lookingout for danger evolved to a
higher plane? I'm not saying it's a higher
plane, but I've got very low tolerance for bad news, so I
tend to get my news from lookingat Have I got news for you or?
So you've you've become a news avoider.
I am a news and do you think? News avoidance is a good state
(20:35):
to be in then as a result. For your, I can't speak for
other people, but I know I get over stimulated by it and
frustrated that it's talking about terrible things that I
feel powerless to do anything about.
And there's two sorts of worry. There's productive worry when we
(20:56):
think about something problem solve, and there's neurotic
worry that goes round and round in circles and just makes us
miserable. And I think if I listened or
watched too much news, I'd get stuck in a neurotic worry cycle.
I could worry about it, but whatcould I do about it?
So what? Why?
(21:17):
Why don't? Why am I able to exist in the
world in which it doesn't bring me down but.
Because some of us are orchids and some of us are dandelions,
and an orchid needs special soil, special climate in order
(21:38):
to thrive. And it doesn't hasn't got that
it it won't thrive. A dandelion can come up in the
crack in the pavement and thrive.
And we need both types. You're calling me a Hardy weed?
We need Hardy weeds. We need both types.
And the other thing is, I think you probably feel like you have
(21:59):
a purpose when you're doing the news.
You know, you've, there's a reason why you're telling us the
news. You're informing us you're,
you're doing a sort of a useful job.
I don't know if I can be that useful if I listen to it, but
I'm sure other people can. Other people can decide to go on
a March about it or or feel likethey're doing something too.
(22:21):
You do that, don't you? I mean you.
You demonstrate about things. I do demonstrate sometimes.
I demonstrated against the Iran Iraq war Fat lot of good that
did, but it made me feel useful for a day maybe.
Well, what? Yes, So what?
So what is demonstration about making you feel better?
Or do you think it makes a difference?
(22:43):
I don't know, but it does make one feel like you're doing
something so it doesn't feel so hopeless.
So it's a good thing to do regardless.
It's a nice day out, nice day out with your friends.
When was your last nice day out to demonstrate?
Oh, when I was I'm demonstratingagainst the Observer being taken
(23:04):
over by Tortoise Media, right? I waved a placard.
And why were you so against that?
Because I didn't understand the deal.
I didn't understand why. It's looked to me like the
Guardian were giving away a partof the paper that was actually
(23:26):
not losing any money, but they weren't investing in it and they
had the funds to invest in it, so it could have done better.
And I also did not understand how Tortoise Media were going to
do it properly. And I didn't understand who half
the backers were. And and do you, do you still
(23:47):
feel the same way about it now that?
I do, yeah. Because you.
Because you, you've, you know, that was the sort of end of view
on the newspaper. I was going to move with them.
Oh, right. But I, I was, I got, I said
those things I've just told you in public and I was summoned to
the headmaster's office, or so it felt like.
(24:08):
And I was told we're going to hold your column this week until
you and I have had a little chatcome into my office.
And I thought, I don't get, I'm I'm 67.
You can't. You can't summon me into the
headmaster's office and give me a telling off.
So I said you can telephone me if you want.
And if you hold my column this week, which was all ready to go
(24:29):
on the page, if you hold my column this week, I will walk.
And I walked across the street to Substack, where I've been
very happily esconced ever since.
And do you think Substack, whichis which is really interesting.
I mean, you know, people are building big communities and
getting people to pay to read their stuff.
I don't know what you know, how how it's going for you yet.
But I mean, do you think that isa replacement for newspapers?
(24:51):
Well, the consumer can decide precisely who they read.
So if something. That's good and bad, isn't it?
Yes, it's good and bad. So if somebody used to get the
Observer, because I was in the back of the magazine and that
was their favorite bit and they bought that, they also got some
(25:14):
very good recipes and some WorldNews and some opinions, but they
might not have wanted that. Now they just get what they pay
for. Yeah, what they want.
They can hone in on individual contributors, as it were.
But. It isn't that also in the same
way as social media kind of going to build hyper engaged
(25:37):
communities around particular ideas, movements which some of
which may be completely bonkers,yeah.
Better society may have a substance, I don't know, but if
people are interested in psychology and how people solve
their problems then they can subscribe to.
Me, yes. And, and do you know, do you
(26:00):
think social media is as bad forour mental health as a lot of
people do? Somebody suggested that all
social media platforms should shut down at 7:00 every night
until the following. Morning so people can watch
Channel 4 News. Yeah.
But I thought that was such a genius idea.
Do you remember when the television used to go off at,
(26:22):
you know what, it was midnight or something?
And I just thought that is such a good idea.
We should have no X or Facebook or anything after.
Let's be more flexible, 8:00 at night.
I just thought that was such a great idea, obviously
impractical. Do I think I think it's good in
some ways. I mean, I think I've made
(26:43):
friends through social media that I wouldn't otherwise have
met. The other thing is, if you meet
someone enough to vent and you swap Instagram pages or
something, you can keep in touchwith them or get in touch with
them in a very sort of informal way.
But you've you've, you've, you know, in this conversation you
should have admitted how you feel a bit policed by us as
(27:03):
well, by the by the threat of being cancelled.
Yeah, that's not very good for you, saying what you think, is
it? Some people are braver than me
and they say what they think anyway and I've got huge
admiration for them. But what I did was I just didn't
(27:25):
go on it for a month, Just peep in.
Oh, they've forgotten about me. I can come back in do.
You think that's the answer generally?
I don't know. Sort of.
I think some people aren't goingto change their mind, whatever
you say, and so it might be bestjust not to bother say it.
(27:53):
That that can also be true of very close personal
relationships, can't it? And you've written about parents
and children. Yeah, I have.
Quite a lot. Now, one of the things, you
know, one of the themes, I suppose, of your advice is to
communicate, Yeah, between parents and, you know, between
generations. Yeah.
You know, a lot of parents struggle with children who you
(28:15):
know don't want to communicate. They when you when you ask them
how they feel, when you say children talk to them and they
don't want. To children are born wanting to
communicate. And you, you, you have a baby of
about 3 months on your knee likethat and you naturally begin
turn taking, yeah, you know, they'll stick out their tongue
(28:38):
and then you will find yourself mirroring that.
And you play this game of swapping facial expressions,
rhythm of looking away, looking back.
And that develops into people and children are born wanting
this contact, wanting to communicate.
(29:00):
And if we have the time to put in and talk to them all the
time, they won't suddenly want to stop.
But if we haven't done that and then we suddenly want them to
talk to us, we've we've got to learn to listen first.
(29:21):
So it's so it's not that kids get to about 16 and just decide.
They Oh yeah, they do at 16. At six, they don't.
Yeah, I don't want to talk a little.
Bit older, I mean, oh, 16 is that is delightful because what
happens when a child hits puberty and adolescence is that
they are biologically programmedto sort of want to separate from
(29:42):
the family of origin and find their new tribe.
And in order to do that, sometimes they they haven't got
the skills to sort of distance politely.
So it's not I hate you, you know, the typical Kevin and
Perry speech. I hate you and what that's about
(30:06):
is they don't hate you but they need to hate you in the moment
so that they can find their own tribe otherwise they'd be comfy
forever. And they are going to live
longer than us so it's not safe for them to be just stuck in the
family of origin forever. They have to find a tribe,
another tribe to join that's their age, that they can form a
(30:29):
community with and find a mate from.
And then when they have got thattribe, you know, when they do
come back from university and they have got a girlfriend or a
boyfriend or a partner or whatever, then they're really
nice again and they've forgottenall about, oh, hey, you.
They've forgotten about how to do.
(30:49):
That so it's just hang in there.It's just hang in there and and
what happened when my daughter aged about 14, she told me to F
off and you know, me all knowingPR JS stages of development and
things like that. I was so pleased I went, Oh
(31:10):
darling, you're separating. Which wasn't the wasn't the most
tactful thing I could have said,because it infuriated her even
further. I had AI had a similar moment.
I remember when my son was 18 months old and he he he bent
down to pick something up and then got up and banged his head
on the door knob and rubbed his head and said oh shit.
And I thought he's very advanced.
Yeah, brilliant. Oh shit, he's also he's got self
(31:32):
soothing down to AT there. Beautiful.
I just wanted to ask you finallyabout about being Lady Perry.
Oh yes, which? Is what you are now I'm doctor
Lady Perry or Lady? Or am I?
Lady Doctor, A lady doctor? Sounds like I want to look at
your bits, doesn't it? So, no.
So. Doctor.
Lady So. How, how do you feel about, I
(31:52):
mean, people normally ask you about, you know, what's it like
being married to a transvestite?I sort of wanted to ask you
about sort of what's it like getting a title because your
husband got got the knighthood? Makes admin really difficult,
like you've got miss misses any other title and so admins are
(32:15):
difficult. What what else?
It hasn't really made much difference.
Do you use it? Do you use it on?
Do you use airline tickets and restaurant reservations and.
No, I don't use it on restaurants, reservations,
airline tickets. Well, I think it's on my credit
card my my bank card. So I probably is on an airline
(32:38):
ticket, yes, and that that's quite useful because I said,
would you like a glass of champagne, Lady Perry?
So that is quite. I quite like that do.
Do you feel you're sort of more establishment than you perhaps
would have been comfortable with20 years ago?
Oh, it's a very nice place to beestablishment, as you well know.
(33:00):
Well, yeah, of course I like total hands up, but you know,
you're you're one step ahead, aren't you?
I mean you I. Don't feel like I'm one step
ahead. I mean if.
I'm more than one step ahead because, I mean, you're already
sort of, you're already the darlings of the establishment
and you're invited to every wonderful party everywhere.
Now you've got the titles as well.
(33:21):
I don't think it makes any difference really.
I think it is is. I don't think going from miss to
misses made any difference. I don't think going from misses
to ladies. Do do you mean that about the
establishment though? That it's nice to be part of.
Oh, it's lovely because I do enjoy going to parties and if
you want to be a little bit naughty and push against, it's
(33:43):
much easier to do that from the inside than it is from the
outside. Yes, we do get invited to things
and it it's very nice. But I think I also get invited
to things because I've got a best selling book, so it's very
nice to be invited to Booker events and things like that.
But I think as you get older andyou get known in your
(34:03):
profession, I think this happensto a lot of people.
And so and So what? What's next?
Because like your career, you'vebeen a bit of not a late
starter, but a late. No, I'm a late starter.
I'm a really late starter because I was terrible at
school, not academic at all, couldn't spell, still can't
spell. And when I was at school, things
(34:24):
like spelling mattered because I'm 67, so I was at school in
the 60s. And so they wanted you to spell
more than express yourself. So I did really badly at school
and then I never took myself seriously at work.
I sort of like, I didn't have a career.
I had jobs and then I was lucky enough to inherit some money so
(34:47):
I could go to art school. And at art school I was much
older than the other students. So I spent my time being a bit
of a cougar, which was quite fun.
And then then what happened? Oh yeah.
Then my first marriage, see above, my first marriage failed
(35:11):
and and then I met Grayson and that's gone very well.
And I think when we had a child,time becomes so precious that
you want to spend it so it counts.
You have so little free time because you're going most of the
time with the baby. And so that's when I trained to
(35:35):
be a psychotherapist and start to take work seriously.
So I was a really late starter. I, I, I don't think am I, I
don't think I started taking clients till I was 38.
And I suppose you've become famous in your 60s.
I came, I wrote my first book inmy 50s, which was called Couch
(35:56):
Fiction. And that was like a calling
card. It was about psychotherapy.
It, it was a graphic novel aboutpsychotherapy.
And that became a calling card. So then I became a, what is
known as, I think, as a lifestyle journalist, which
meant that I then got a job on Red Magazine as an agony aunt.
(36:16):
And, you know, this was my calling.
I absolutely loved it. And then I moved on to the
Observer. So I didn't start doing anything
in public until I was in my 50s,you know, writing books and
things. So I'm a really late start.
And do you think being a psychotherapist is the thing
that makes you qualify to be an agony aunt?
(36:37):
Or would you have been an agony aunt anyway?
The. Thing that makes you qualify to
be an agony aunt is being a goodwriter because you are.
You want to get the reader's attention and you want to keep
it. And so I think there are some
very good agony aunts that are just excellent writers.
(36:57):
Graham Norton, for instance, or,you know, people like that.
And I think they just offer something different.
It's another person's point of view, the fact that I am a
qualified psychotherapist. I don't know if that that gives
me a little bit more weight. I have a little bit more
background to draw on for my answers and.
(37:19):
And do you feel sure about your answers or do you or do you
think I might be getting this wrong?
Yeah, I do. I think I might be getting this
wrong. I think if I felt sure about my
answers, I'd be in big trouble. Because I let you know when
you've got it wrong. Do they write to you and say,
well, I did what you said and. No what my?
Husband left me. Can't help that, I'm afraid.
(37:39):
What I usually do is I have somecorrespondence with the person
whose letter I'm going to use, and I go, this strikes me like
that, Does that fit for you? And they go, no, it's not like
that at all. And they put me right.
I go, oh, so we have a little bit.
Of. Yeah, usually.
Sometimes I just get straight inthere but.
(38:01):
So what we read is sort of the end of a process.
Yeah, quite often, yeah. And do people stay in touch?
Yes, some of them do, yeah. And is that is it always
positive or do you get, I mean like do people?
Yeah, it's usually positive. Yes, it's usually positive.
I mean, I had a wonderful one ofa woman who wrote to me who had
(38:25):
just four months to live. You know, she'd got advanced
stage cancer and she wanted to know whether she should leave a
manual for her husband's next wife.
You know, would it be bad for meto write this manual?
And I just thought, this is whatyou want to do, Do it.
And it made a wonderful column because it was mostly her sort
(38:50):
of working stuff out. And I only wrote a very little
bit going. You go, girl, you're teaching us
everything. So quite often my columns are
actually written by the people that write in.
It's the easiest job in the world.
It's half done by the public. And what was wonderful about
that is that I kept in touch notonly with her, but with the
Hospice and her husband as well for a while.
(39:13):
Her widower, Yeah. So there's things like that that
I'll I'll remember because they,they touched me.
Well, and people can get a hold of you on Substack now.
They can get a hold of me on substackaskphilippa@yahoo.com as
well. Great.
Well, thank you very much indeedfor coming in and telling us all
about it. Thank you.
Philippa Perry, Lady Doctor. Philippa Perry.
(39:34):
That's right. Thank you very much for sharing
your way to. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. That's it for this episode of
Where to Change the World. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
People have now got a relationship with their
computers, with their phones. Instead of relating to the
person in front of us, we relatewith the fantasy we have of that
person in our heads. And I worry about that.
You talked about sort of social contagion.
People seem to want a diagnosis for things or a or a label to
(00:21):
give things. I don't think we are any better
since we've had this whole plethora of labels.
Talking about ADHD and what we call neurodiversity.
Social anxiety. We used to call it shy.
(00:43):
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Krishna Guru Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest today is a psychotherapist, broadcaster,
agony aunt and best selling author who helps people untangle
their inner lives with wit and wisdom.
You may know Philippa Perry fromher bestseller The Book You Wish
(01:06):
Your Parents Had Read, her TV appearances alongside her artist
husband Grayson Perry, or from her widely read advice columns
where she explores everything from family dynamics and
emotional resilience to the wayswe connect, or fail to connect
rather, with the people closest to us.
Philippa, welcome. Thank you for having me.
If you could change the world, how would you change it?
(01:28):
That's a very big question. You know, when people write to
me on my column, they come with very specific questions like how
can I get on with my mother-in-law better?
And sometimes I think that how we change the world is in this
these microscopic ways because if we are, say, kind and give
(01:51):
our mother-in-law the benefit ofthe doubt, that will change the
world in a very tiny way, which might then have repercussions.
It might be a Pebble in the pond, but how to change the
world? That's a big one.
I mean, it's a bit like saying how do you change human nature
or how to change the planetary systems or?
(02:14):
Did you think we are getting better or worse at
relationships, as you know, as aspecies, or is it that we talk
about the problems more or that we are actually getting?
Worse, we talk about problems more, and I think there's an
element of social contagion in that, in that people think, oh,
I've got that too. So I'm not sure whether talking
about it more is making it better.
(02:36):
Are we getting better or worse relationships?
I'd say some of us are getting better and a lot of us are
getting worse. And where we're getting worse is
that people have now got a relationship with their
computers, with their phones, with their video games.
(02:56):
And I think sometimes it feels easier to have an evening in
with your screens playing Fortnite or whatever it is you
play. Then it is sort of going to an
event where you'll you'll go into a room and you may only
know two people and they're busy.
And I think people will do what's easiest.
(03:18):
And that can happen to anyone, can't it happen to?
Anyone. Yeah.
Of. Course, yeah, people will do
what's easiest. So it's easier maybe to do quasi
socialising online than it is todo real socialising.
And I worry about that because Ithink we need to keep flexing
(03:39):
our social muscle in real life because as we found out in the
lockdowns, if we don't flex it, it atrophies and we become shyer
and we become less tolerant of that awkwardness.
When you go into the room, you don't think you know anyone.
It took me a while to build up resilience again after lockdown.
(04:01):
I was so looking forward to the first event, which I think was a
book launch I was going to afterlockdown.
I was so looking forward to it. I thought I'm not going to drink
because I want to remember everylittle bit of it.
And I lasted 45 minutes. It was completely overwhelming.
I, I, I couldn't cope. I was so overstimulated after 45
(04:22):
minutes I just had to go for a walk.
And it took me months until I was comfortable flexing my
social muscle again. And I, I know what that
experience was like for me. So imagine a young person who it
was locked down, say, during their university years when they
(04:43):
should have been really learning.
Yeah, and therefore doesn't really know what flexing
socialism. Is I knew at least I had a
groove I could get back into. But if you haven't formed that
groove and this makes me worry about some young people and
relationships, but all people actually, not just young people
because I think when we're face to face with someone, it's
(05:07):
harder to have a fantasy about them because what we tend to do
is instead of relating to the person in front of us, we relate
with the fantasy we have of thatperson in our heads and that
makes us go further apart. And if you talk about how do you
change the world, well, perhaps we have a fantasy about our
(05:29):
enemies as well, rather than getting to know them.
And then we are fighting the demons in our heads and we're
thinking that there are enemy out there.
What sort of things should we dothen?
I mean, you know, if you, if youare that young person who hasn't
got a history of remembering what it was like to socialize
normally, if you like and and you're suddenly sort of your
(05:52):
post pandemic, you're locked in your phone and your devices and
you're in an office, you know, what do you do?
You feel the fear and do it anyway.
You, you can't get over the awkwardness.
You can't get over how unpleasant it feels to feel
awkward, to feel that everybody else has got this except for
you. Because what we tend to do is we
(06:14):
judge our inner world, how we feel inside ourselves by by
comparing it with people's external world.
So I go into a room and I see you looking very competent and
chatting like to a lot of people.
And I think, oh, Chris has really got this.
And I can't do that. But you know, for all I know
(06:36):
you're going, oh God, I don't know what to say.
You know as well. So do.
You think we should be forced tospeak to people rather than text
them? I don't think we should be
forced. I have a daughter who, you know,
who hates being on the phone andshe'd much rather text.
And I kind of go, no, no, no, you've got to speak.
I think if you speak, there's the if you, if you see somebody
(06:59):
face to face, there's less room for making assumptions that are
wrong. If you speak to someone on the
phone, there's more. You can't read somebody's face,
but you can hear their tone. So, you know, there's more, more
chance of getting it wrong. And if you text, well, it's just
practically a fantasy that you're having with the other
(07:21):
person because you can't read what they're saying.
I mean, how many misunderstandings have you had
with a text message? And e-mail same.
Thing. Yeah, yeah.
But that that's a very modern problem, isn't it?
Because people are communicatingmuch more by text than face to
face. I expect it is, yeah.
You talked about sort of social contagion and people, you know,
(07:43):
wanting or or saying I've got that too.
Yeah. I mean, you've, you've written
about this as well, haven't you,That, that people kind of seem
to want a diagnosis for things or, or a label to give.
I don't think that many of the, oh, I've got to be so careful
what I say because people get very upset because their labels
are part of their identity. And I don't want to rub out
(08:05):
anybody's identity, but I don't think we are any better since
we've had this whole plethora oflabels.
I don't think it's making us anybetter.
I think what people are doing are putting themselves in boxes
and thinking I've got that and then that's a full stop.
(08:28):
Whereas if you go, I feel like this and I have this experience,
you can then work on all. How can I make that experience
work for me or be better for me?What sort of things are you
talking about? You talking about ADHD?
What we call social anxiety, we used to call it shy social
(08:48):
anxiety. Anything with disorder or
syndrome I'm a little bit sceptical about because as
Doctor Simi IMI said in his bookSearching for Normal, if you put
disorder behind word, it makes it sound like it's a proper
(09:09):
thing, but it's nothing you can see under the microscope.
It's, it's just a set of behaviours that people have have
clubbed together and decided it's a thing.
I mean, a lot of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, the DSM,
the, the, the big fat textbooks that psychiatrists use was sort
(09:32):
of made-up by a group of about 12 men that would do 4 disorders
before lunch and maybe 3 or 4 after lunch as well.
I think it was like 12 men and one woman coming up with all
these terms for things that go in and out of fashion.
Like homosexuality was in the book to start with.
(09:56):
And you know, things go in and out of fashion because there
isn't any. Proper evidence So.
So why do you think people are often so pleased to be diagnosed
with something? Because it makes sense of how
they feel and it's a a sort of story in a judgement.
And sometimes I think it might be an excuse as well.
(10:18):
For what? For putting my keys in the
fridge, right? Which I have done on occasions
and so if that explains that behaviour then I feel like I'm
not the only one who puts their keys in the fridge when they
should have put them on the peg by the door.
So does this stop us taking responsibility for our own?
(10:38):
Behaviour. I'm worried about that, yeah,
I'm, I'm worried that it does. And it it's, I mean, I don't
know, I mean. It's funny you you said.
You've got to be very careful what you're saying.
And I can feel your tension almost.
Because. Because I got.
Why are you so worried about that?
I got cancelled last time. Why?
What happened? Well, I I talked a bit about one
particular diagnosis and I thought it was being overused.
(11:01):
And then people with that diagnosis, I had a pile on on
social media and said I'm not going to buy her books anymore.
But did it make you think you were wrong?
It made me think I was wrong in the way I did it.
I don't think I was wrong to go.Shall we not question these
diagnosis a bit? And This is why it's so great
(11:24):
that people are now, people thatknow about these things better
than me, are talking a lot more about overdiagnosis, and I'm
very pleased that that is happening.
Because there are. What are the consequences of
overdiagnosis? Because I mean, this is an
argument that sort of spreads way beyond the sort of the, you
know, the, the pages of a, of anagony aunt, you know, in a
(11:45):
newspaper. I mean, it's about the NHS and
resources and benefits and government and all those sorts
of things. I mean, is this a much bigger
issue? Actually, if you give a child,
say, a label, they think and they think there's something
wrong with them. It sort of comes down on them
like a judgement sometimes. And then if we have a judgement,
(12:09):
that's like a full stop. And if we don't have a
judgement, then we can explore and we can go on to, you know,
finding good coping mechanisms or, or growing out of things.
But if you've got a label, you might believe you're incapable
(12:30):
of growing out of something or or growing through it.
Is is there such a thing as normal or or is normal in fact a
range of behaviours? It's very interesting.
I wrote a book called How to Stay Sane.
When I was researching for that book, I found thousands of
(12:52):
definitions of insanity, ways ofbeing abnormal.
I didn't find one definition of normal and what you can do with
all those definitions. You could roughly divide them
into two, and one is leaning towards chaos and the other is
(13:14):
leaning towards rigidity. And I thought, well, maybe the
definition of normal or sane is somewhere between the two, you
know, and I'd like to call it flexible.
So that means that you're not chaotic and all over the place,
but on the other hand your notesnot so rigid that you can't
(13:38):
change a plan if you know something external happens.
So I think of normal and sanity as the ability to organise your
life but not over organise it. Be able to respond in the
moment, but not be in a perpetual state of drama and
(14:03):
chaos. So, so, but are we creating
problems as well in, in the workplace, in in, in healthcare
with the use of these? I'm worried about it.
I've got a friend who is an employer.
She's runs a large publishing house and she takes graduates,
(14:25):
very clever graduates in as you know, trainee editors and
things. And they do very well in
interview. And then once they've done their
three months of whatever it is before you've got your
employment contract, then they have, then they get a diagnosis
of ADHD and then they go, it's not my fault if I'm late because
(14:50):
I've got, I've got this diagnosis.
So you're discriminating againstme if I, if you sack me for
being late, I mean. This is a very common tale
amongst employers and managers now, but it's it's seen as sort
of dreadful, unsympathetic. Yeah, and I behaviour and I
(15:13):
think as well there are, you know, there's people that's that
are really mentally unwell. They're climbing up the walls.
They're bashing their head against the wall.
They're screaming. And there are people who find it
(15:35):
difficult, more difficult than than others to, say, organize
their life. You know, they're a bit on the
chaotic spectrum. The trouble is they're taking up
the resources from people who, you know, can't leave their room
without collapsing or screaming or hurting themselves.
(16:00):
So I feel like it's putting an off.
All these labels are putting a huge strain on the NHS.
Do you? Think we need to toughen up?
Don't like toughen up as a word?I think we need a different way
of thinking about it rather thandiagnosis.
I I want to be sympathetic to people that are, are are having
(16:20):
difficulties, but I'm not sure that putting them in a box and
saying this means that is the way to do it.
Do you think we as a as, as a society respond to, you know,
what's going on outside in termsof our personal happiness?
A lot. You know, we're going through a
very, very chaotic phase in the world at the moment, wars in the
Middle East, Ukraine, Africa, and and that's encroaching on
(16:43):
British politics and the conversation and social media a
lot. Does that 'cause people to be
unhappy and anxious and. We've always found things to be
unhappy and anxious about and whatever period we are in
history, it seems to me that we're not very good at
remembering that quote of you'venever had it so good because,
(17:07):
you know, if it, if it was, you know, it used to be the Cuban
missile crisis. It used to be the Cold War.
I mean, that was terrifying, theCold War when we thought any
minute now we would have to hideunder the table.
Why when a, a nuclear bomb went off.
And now we are worried about, you know, these wars escalating
(17:28):
and, and travelling all over theworld and, and affecting
everyone. And we are devastated about
people starving because some cruel people won't let them get
the food. It is devastating.
But I think if we've got the capacity to be miserable, we
will find an outside justification for that misery.
(17:55):
So I think our misery and our happiness is sort of internal to
quite an extent, and then we find an object external to
ourselves to put it on. So we are the miserable ones,
but we're looking for something to be miserable about.
Yes. What?
Why? Why do we do that Well, And is
it all of us, or is it just someof us?
(18:16):
Oh, I think it is more or less all of us.
I think you are to blame actually.
With your yeah, catastrophizing.It's if you can find the most
catastrophizing headline that isthe one we're going to click on
because we'll get more emotionalmovement from something that's
(18:42):
horrific. I mean, the the reason that the
dog on the skateboard stories happen at the very end is that
they're never going to grab someone to start watching the
news with that. Why?
Why do we have that negativity bias?
Because it's, it's, it's sort of, I think it's because we are
wired to look for ginger becausethere we are, you know, in the,
(19:06):
in the, in the desert, in the Seren, whatever it was called.
The Serengeti. That's.
The one there we are in the Serengeti, this is where we've
evolved from and it's no good looking out for the pretty
flowers. We've got to look out for when
the pack of lions is coming downon us.
We've got to look out for peoplethat and animals that see us as
(19:28):
easy meat. So we are wired to look for
danger. But in a walking here along
Grazing Rd., nobody was going tojump me, you know, Not in broad
daylight anyway. So we so we need to adapt to.
So, so I'm looking out for the headlines or I'm, you know,
scrolling, looking for, we're still looking for danger because
(19:51):
that's what we're sort of evolved to do.
That's how we have survived. That's how we have evolved.
So we are wired to look for danger.
We don't look for the happy stories because the happy
stories aren't a threat. And if we don't look out for
threats, then maybe it will be dangerous.
(20:13):
And do you find yourself lookingout for danger evolved to a
higher plane? I'm not saying it's a higher
plane, but I've got very low tolerance for bad news, so I
tend to get my news from lookingat Have I got news for you or?
So you've you've become a news avoider.
I am a news and do you think? News avoidance is a good state
(20:35):
to be in then as a result. For your, I can't speak for
other people, but I know I get over stimulated by it and
frustrated that it's talking about terrible things that I
feel powerless to do anything about.
And there's two sorts of worry. There's productive worry when we
(20:56):
think about something problem solve, and there's neurotic
worry that goes round and round in circles and just makes us
miserable. And I think if I listened or
watched too much news, I'd get stuck in a neurotic worry cycle.
I could worry about it, but whatcould I do about it?
So what? Why?
(21:17):
Why don't? Why am I able to exist in the
world in which it doesn't bring me down but.
Because some of us are orchids and some of us are dandelions,
and an orchid needs special soil, special climate in order
(21:38):
to thrive. And it doesn't hasn't got that
it it won't thrive. A dandelion can come up in the
crack in the pavement and thrive.
And we need both types. You're calling me a Hardy weed?
We need Hardy weeds. We need both types.
And the other thing is, I think you probably feel like you have
(21:59):
a purpose when you're doing the news.
You know, you've, there's a reason why you're telling us the
news. You're informing us you're,
you're doing a sort of a useful job.
I don't know if I can be that useful if I listen to it, but
I'm sure other people can. Other people can decide to go on
a March about it or or feel likethey're doing something too.
(22:21):
You do that, don't you? I mean you.
You demonstrate about things. I do demonstrate sometimes.
I demonstrated against the Iran Iraq war Fat lot of good that
did, but it made me feel useful for a day maybe.
Well, what? Yes, So what?
So what is demonstration about making you feel better?
Or do you think it makes a difference?
(22:43):
I don't know, but it does make one feel like you're doing
something so it doesn't feel so hopeless.
So it's a good thing to do regardless.
It's a nice day out, nice day out with your friends.
When was your last nice day out to demonstrate?
Oh, when I was I'm demonstratingagainst the Observer being taken
(23:04):
over by Tortoise Media, right? I waved a placard.
And why were you so against that?
Because I didn't understand the deal.
I didn't understand why. It's looked to me like the
Guardian were giving away a partof the paper that was actually
(23:26):
not losing any money, but they weren't investing in it and they
had the funds to invest in it, so it could have done better.
And I also did not understand how Tortoise Media were going to
do it properly. And I didn't understand who half
the backers were. And and do you, do you still
(23:47):
feel the same way about it now that?
I do, yeah. Because you.
Because you, you've, you know, that was the sort of end of view
on the newspaper. I was going to move with them.
Oh, right. But I, I was, I got, I said
those things I've just told you in public and I was summoned to
the headmaster's office, or so it felt like.
(24:08):
And I was told we're going to hold your column this week until
you and I have had a little chatcome into my office.
And I thought, I don't get, I'm I'm 67.
You can't. You can't summon me into the
headmaster's office and give me a telling off.
So I said you can telephone me if you want.
And if you hold my column this week, which was all ready to go
(24:29):
on the page, if you hold my column this week, I will walk.
And I walked across the street to Substack, where I've been
very happily esconced ever since.
And do you think Substack, whichis which is really interesting.
I mean, you know, people are building big communities and
getting people to pay to read their stuff.
I don't know what you know, how how it's going for you yet.
But I mean, do you think that isa replacement for newspapers?
(24:51):
Well, the consumer can decide precisely who they read.
So if something. That's good and bad, isn't it?
Yes, it's good and bad. So if somebody used to get the
Observer, because I was in the back of the magazine and that
was their favorite bit and they bought that, they also got some
(25:14):
very good recipes and some WorldNews and some opinions, but they
might not have wanted that. Now they just get what they pay
for. Yeah, what they want.
They can hone in on individual contributors, as it were.
But. It isn't that also in the same
way as social media kind of going to build hyper engaged
(25:37):
communities around particular ideas, movements which some of
which may be completely bonkers,yeah.
Better society may have a substance, I don't know, but if
people are interested in psychology and how people solve
their problems then they can subscribe to.
Me, yes. And, and do you know, do you
(26:00):
think social media is as bad forour mental health as a lot of
people do? Somebody suggested that all
social media platforms should shut down at 7:00 every night
until the following. Morning so people can watch
Channel 4 News. Yeah.
But I thought that was such a genius idea.
Do you remember when the television used to go off at,
(26:22):
you know what, it was midnight or something?
And I just thought that is such a good idea.
We should have no X or Facebook or anything after.
Let's be more flexible, 8:00 at night.
I just thought that was such a great idea, obviously
impractical. Do I think I think it's good in
some ways. I mean, I think I've made
(26:43):
friends through social media that I wouldn't otherwise have
met. The other thing is, if you meet
someone enough to vent and you swap Instagram pages or
something, you can keep in touchwith them or get in touch with
them in a very sort of informal way.
But you've you've, you've, you know, in this conversation you
should have admitted how you feel a bit policed by us as
(27:03):
well, by the by the threat of being cancelled.
Yeah, that's not very good for you, saying what you think, is
it? Some people are braver than me
and they say what they think anyway and I've got huge
admiration for them. But what I did was I just didn't
(27:25):
go on it for a month, Just peep in.
Oh, they've forgotten about me. I can come back in do.
You think that's the answer generally?
I don't know. Sort of.
I think some people aren't goingto change their mind, whatever
you say, and so it might be bestjust not to bother say it.
(27:53):
That that can also be true of very close personal
relationships, can't it? And you've written about parents
and children. Yeah, I have.
Quite a lot. Now, one of the things, you
know, one of the themes, I suppose, of your advice is to
communicate, Yeah, between parents and, you know, between
generations. Yeah.
You know, a lot of parents struggle with children who you
(28:15):
know don't want to communicate. They when you when you ask them
how they feel, when you say children talk to them and they
don't want. To children are born wanting to
communicate. And you, you, you have a baby of
about 3 months on your knee likethat and you naturally begin
turn taking, yeah, you know, they'll stick out their tongue
(28:38):
and then you will find yourself mirroring that.
And you play this game of swapping facial expressions,
rhythm of looking away, looking back.
And that develops into people and children are born wanting
this contact, wanting to communicate.
(29:00):
And if we have the time to put in and talk to them all the
time, they won't suddenly want to stop.
But if we haven't done that and then we suddenly want them to
talk to us, we've we've got to learn to listen first.
(29:21):
So it's so it's not that kids get to about 16 and just decide.
They Oh yeah, they do at 16. At six, they don't.
Yeah, I don't want to talk a little.
Bit older, I mean, oh, 16 is that is delightful because what
happens when a child hits puberty and adolescence is that
they are biologically programmedto sort of want to separate from
(29:42):
the family of origin and find their new tribe.
And in order to do that, sometimes they they haven't got
the skills to sort of distance politely.
So it's not I hate you, you know, the typical Kevin and
Perry speech. I hate you and what that's about
(30:06):
is they don't hate you but they need to hate you in the moment
so that they can find their own tribe otherwise they'd be comfy
forever. And they are going to live
longer than us so it's not safe for them to be just stuck in the
family of origin forever. They have to find a tribe,
another tribe to join that's their age, that they can form a
(30:29):
community with and find a mate from.
And then when they have got thattribe, you know, when they do
come back from university and they have got a girlfriend or a
boyfriend or a partner or whatever, then they're really
nice again and they've forgottenall about, oh, hey, you.
They've forgotten about how to do.
(30:49):
That so it's just hang in there.It's just hang in there and and
what happened when my daughter aged about 14, she told me to F
off and you know, me all knowingPR JS stages of development and
things like that. I was so pleased I went, Oh
(31:10):
darling, you're separating. Which wasn't the wasn't the most
tactful thing I could have said,because it infuriated her even
further. I had AI had a similar moment.
I remember when my son was 18 months old and he he he bent
down to pick something up and then got up and banged his head
on the door knob and rubbed his head and said oh shit.
And I thought he's very advanced.
Yeah, brilliant. Oh shit, he's also he's got self
(31:32):
soothing down to AT there. Beautiful.
I just wanted to ask you finallyabout about being Lady Perry.
Oh yes, which? Is what you are now I'm doctor
Lady Perry or Lady? Or am I?
Lady Doctor, A lady doctor? Sounds like I want to look at
your bits, doesn't it? So, no.
So. Doctor.
Lady So. How, how do you feel about, I
(31:52):
mean, people normally ask you about, you know, what's it like
being married to a transvestite?I sort of wanted to ask you
about sort of what's it like getting a title because your
husband got got the knighthood? Makes admin really difficult,
like you've got miss misses any other title and so admins are
(32:15):
difficult. What what else?
It hasn't really made much difference.
Do you use it? Do you use it on?
Do you use airline tickets and restaurant reservations and.
No, I don't use it on restaurants, reservations,
airline tickets. Well, I think it's on my credit
card my my bank card. So I probably is on an airline
(32:38):
ticket, yes, and that that's quite useful because I said,
would you like a glass of champagne, Lady Perry?
So that is quite. I quite like that do.
Do you feel you're sort of more establishment than you perhaps
would have been comfortable with20 years ago?
Oh, it's a very nice place to beestablishment, as you well know.
(33:00):
Well, yeah, of course I like total hands up, but you know,
you're you're one step ahead, aren't you?
I mean you I. Don't feel like I'm one step
ahead. I mean if.
I'm more than one step ahead because, I mean, you're already
sort of, you're already the darlings of the establishment
and you're invited to every wonderful party everywhere.
Now you've got the titles as well.
(33:21):
I don't think it makes any difference really.
I think it is is. I don't think going from miss to
misses made any difference. I don't think going from misses
to ladies. Do do you mean that about the
establishment though? That it's nice to be part of.
Oh, it's lovely because I do enjoy going to parties and if
you want to be a little bit naughty and push against, it's
(33:43):
much easier to do that from the inside than it is from the
outside. Yes, we do get invited to things
and it it's very nice. But I think I also get invited
to things because I've got a best selling book, so it's very
nice to be invited to Booker events and things like that.
But I think as you get older andyou get known in your
(34:03):
profession, I think this happensto a lot of people.
And so and So what? What's next?
Because like your career, you'vebeen a bit of not a late
starter, but a late. No, I'm a late starter.
I'm a really late starter because I was terrible at
school, not academic at all, couldn't spell, still can't
spell. And when I was at school, things
(34:24):
like spelling mattered because I'm 67, so I was at school in
the 60s. And so they wanted you to spell
more than express yourself. So I did really badly at school
and then I never took myself seriously at work.
I sort of like, I didn't have a career.
I had jobs and then I was lucky enough to inherit some money so
(34:47):
I could go to art school. And at art school I was much
older than the other students. So I spent my time being a bit
of a cougar, which was quite fun.
And then then what happened? Oh yeah.
Then my first marriage, see above, my first marriage failed
(35:11):
and and then I met Grayson and that's gone very well.
And I think when we had a child,time becomes so precious that
you want to spend it so it counts.
You have so little free time because you're going most of the
time with the baby. And so that's when I trained to
(35:35):
be a psychotherapist and start to take work seriously.
So I was a really late starter. I, I, I don't think am I, I
don't think I started taking clients till I was 38.
And I suppose you've become famous in your 60s.
I came, I wrote my first book inmy 50s, which was called Couch
(35:56):
Fiction. And that was like a calling
card. It was about psychotherapy.
It, it was a graphic novel aboutpsychotherapy.
And that became a calling card. So then I became a, what is
known as, I think, as a lifestyle journalist, which
meant that I then got a job on Red Magazine as an agony aunt.
(36:16):
And, you know, this was my calling.
I absolutely loved it. And then I moved on to the
Observer. So I didn't start doing anything
in public until I was in my 50s,you know, writing books and
things. So I'm a really late start.
And do you think being a psychotherapist is the thing
that makes you qualify to be an agony aunt?
(36:37):
Or would you have been an agony aunt anyway?
The. Thing that makes you qualify to
be an agony aunt is being a goodwriter because you are.
You want to get the reader's attention and you want to keep
it. And so I think there are some
very good agony aunts that are just excellent writers.
(36:57):
Graham Norton, for instance, or,you know, people like that.
And I think they just offer something different.
It's another person's point of view, the fact that I am a
qualified psychotherapist. I don't know if that that gives
me a little bit more weight. I have a little bit more
background to draw on for my answers and.
(37:19):
And do you feel sure about your answers or do you or do you
think I might be getting this wrong?
Yeah, I do. I think I might be getting this
wrong. I think if I felt sure about my
answers, I'd be in big trouble. Because I let you know when
you've got it wrong. Do they write to you and say,
well, I did what you said and. No what my?
Husband left me. Can't help that, I'm afraid.
(37:39):
What I usually do is I have somecorrespondence with the person
whose letter I'm going to use, and I go, this strikes me like
that, Does that fit for you? And they go, no, it's not like
that at all. And they put me right.
I go, oh, so we have a little bit.
Of. Yeah, usually.
Sometimes I just get straight inthere but.
(38:01):
So what we read is sort of the end of a process.
Yeah, quite often, yeah. And do people stay in touch?
Yes, some of them do, yeah. And is that is it always
positive or do you get, I mean like do people?
Yeah, it's usually positive. Yes, it's usually positive.
I mean, I had a wonderful one ofa woman who wrote to me who had
(38:25):
just four months to live. You know, she'd got advanced
stage cancer and she wanted to know whether she should leave a
manual for her husband's next wife.
You know, would it be bad for meto write this manual?
And I just thought, this is whatyou want to do, Do it.
And it made a wonderful column because it was mostly her sort
(38:50):
of working stuff out. And I only wrote a very little
bit going. You go, girl, you're teaching us
everything. So quite often my columns are
actually written by the people that write in.
It's the easiest job in the world.
It's half done by the public. And what was wonderful about
that is that I kept in touch notonly with her, but with the
Hospice and her husband as well for a while.
(39:13):
Her widower, Yeah. So there's things like that that
I'll I'll remember because they,they touched me.
Well, and people can get a hold of you on Substack now.
They can get a hold of me on substackaskphilippa@yahoo.com as
well. Great.
Well, thank you very much indeedfor coming in and telling us all
about it. Thank you.
Philippa Perry, Lady Doctor. Philippa Perry.
(39:34):
That's right. Thank you very much for sharing
your way to. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. That's it for this episode of
Where to Change the World. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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