October 31, 2025 • 33 mins
Lynsey Addario is a Pulitzer Prize-winning American photojournalist who has spent two decades covering conflicts and humanitarian crises across the globe. Travelling to the frontlines of some of the world’s most dangerous countries, including Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan and Ukraine.
She has a string of alarming personal stories to go with it. She has been detained by the Libyan army, forced to go through an X-ray scanner three times by Israeli forces who knew she was pregnant at the time.
She once said, “I realise with every assignment I do, there is a chance I might not come home.”
On this episode of Ways to Change the War, Addario speaks to Krishnan Guru-Murthy about her life as a conflict journalist, wife and mother, as well as her latest feature documentary Love+War.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I've been kidnapped twice. I've been thrown out of a car on
a highway in Pakistan, I've beenin a Taliban ambush, I've been
ambushed by the Iraqi insurgents.
It goes on and on, and I think that somewhere I have to
convince myself that I will comehome.
I don't know how many men who dothis job with children.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World, the podcast in
(00:22):
which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in
their lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest today is Lindsay Addario, A Pulitzer Prize
winning American photojournalistwho has spent two decades
covering conflict and humanitarian crises across the
globe, travelling to the front lines of some of the world's
most dangerous countries, including Afghanistan, Iraq,
(00:43):
Sudan and Ukraine. She has a string of alarming
personal stories to go with it. She's been detained by the
Libyan army, forced to go through an X-ray scanner three
times by Israeli forces who knewthat she was pregnant at the
time. She's now the subject of a
featured documentary about her life as a conflict journalist,
wife and mother called Love and War.
(01:05):
She once said, I realise with every assignment I do, there is
a chance I might not come home. Lindsay, welcome.
Thank you. If you could change the world,
how would you change it? I guess I'm working on that
right now with my work as a journalist, as a conflict
photographer. With every assignment, I set out
to try to change the world just a little bit for the better.
(01:27):
I'm trying to enlighten people, educate people, show them a
different perspective, maybe change their minds and foreign
policy, and that's sort of the little part I can play in
changing the world. Yeah, I mean, you're, you're
very upfront about that in the in the film, but obviously
you're a journalist. Yeah, you work for the New York
Times. Freelance.
Yeah. And you know, and and and
(01:49):
journalists don't necessarily take defined positions on
things. So when you say you want to
change the world, what do you really mean?
I mean, do you do you, do you? Do you go to a place and go I
want this to stop, I want them to win.
Or what do you mean by that? Well, I think what I'm trying to
do more than anything is inform the world, right?
I'm trying to show what's happening on the ground from any
(02:12):
perspective, from all perspectives that I'm given
access to as a journalist. As you know, a lot is determined
in our coverage by what we can access.
And I think in Ukraine, we've been covering the side of the
Ukrainians because as we see ourcolleagues who try to cover from
the side of Russians or sometimes and often detained or
disappeared. And so I think for me, it's
(02:34):
always about informing the public.
It's about not taking a side personally, but really about
sort of showing what's happeningand documenting.
Now, I, I think the thing that'sperhaps different about you as a
photojournalist compared to a lot of us who go to these same,
same places, is that you, you, you really want to get to the
front. You know, if I go to a war zone,
(02:57):
my aim is not necessarily to getto the shooting bits of the
frontline. You definitely want to be there,
don't you? Well, I trust my mother is not
listening to this podcast because she's in America.
But yeah, I think often the mostinteresting and compelling
stories are happening at the front and happening in the most
dangerous places because they'reoften the stories that are being
(03:20):
under covered or that are more difficult to cover.
So I think it's not always I want to go right to the front,
but certainly in the beginning of the war in Ukraine, for
example, that's where I wanted to be because I wanted to show
what was happening in the impactof the conflict.
But now, for example, three years in, a lot of the stories
I'm doing in Ukraine are pulled back.
(03:41):
You know, they're they're on regular people and how three
years of war has affected lives around the country and not
necessarily on the frontline. So I was documenting a young
girl with retinoblastoma who which would have been treatable,
but her chemotherapy was interrupted by the full scale
invasion. And she died last August.
(04:02):
And I spent the last three months of her life with her.
And so to me, that is a consequence of the full scale of
eight invasion and it's important to cover that.
What's your approach then to thephotography?
I mean, you know, there are somephotographers who just who go
around sort of spraying and thenfind the image they want.
Are you do do you compose more? Do you take?
(04:23):
Your time. So I think when there's news
evolving and breaking news and you're at the beginning, the
first week or few weeks of a war, so much is happening
everywhere. So it's really sort of reacting
to what's happening. And of course, I've covered war
for 2 1/2 half decades now. So I know kind of what to
anticipate, you know, and that'sin the sense that there will be
(04:43):
this frenzy to evacuate. I knew that would be some
indication of the fear. And so I'm looking to convey
emotion. I'm looking to convey the fear.
I'm looking to look at the civilian toll of a conflict.
Certainly as the war goes on, I'm making sort of mental
tallies of, of ways I'd like to tell the story.
And I, I'm always doing reporting.
I'm always looking at what's being published and I'm always
(05:06):
thinking it's not. It's not just about going out
and taking a photograph. It's really about thinking,
researching, reporting, and thenfiguring out how to convey the
story. I think the other thing that
comes over really strongly in the film is, is what your role
is. And I think maybe you should
explain that because I think a lot of people think that there
are journalists and there are photographers, you know, and the
(05:28):
photographer just takes the pictures and obviously those
visiting the industry know that you are the journalist.
Just explain how you work. I mean, what's your role?
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't knowif the way I work is unique to
other photographers, but I know it's, it's definitely how I've
developed my profession is that I'm largely A journalist.
(05:51):
I mean, I, I, I am a journalist.I do a lot of reporting and I do
a lot of interviewing and I photograph, of course, but my
photographs are not that. They're secondary, but they,
they're in tandem with the reporting, you know, and a lot
of the reporting I do informs how I photograph.
So it really depends on the assignment and the war.
(06:13):
For example, I was recently in Sudan for The Atlantic and I was
working with Anne Applebaum, whois a very celebrated journalist,
very respected journalist. And so she did the reporting and
I was just a photographer. So I went along.
I took pictures I had, I had ideas in my head of the
important themes that I wanted to cover.
(06:33):
And so we worked sort of together to make compromises on
where we went each day. But it was really about she did
the reporting. When I'm on my own, I'm often
pitching stories. So I'm finding stories, I'm
pitching them, I'm reporting them, I'm doing long interviews
and I'm photographing them and often shooting video as well.
So it's really comprehensive, but it depends on the
(06:56):
publication. It depends on the assignment.
And yeah, but I think overall, I'm definitely not just a
photographer. I'm really a photojournalist and
I'm doing both. But this whole question of risk,
I mean, you know, when you, whenyou say things like, well,
you're aware you might not come home.
I mean, in a way that's true of all journalists and all wars.
(07:18):
But, but I think it's it's perhaps more acute for you
because you want, you do seek out the front lines and the the
dangerous places. Do you, do you think about it or
is it just, is it only in reflection?
Somebody asks you thinking aboutthe risk and and the implication
of the risk is you're a mother of two.
(07:38):
No, I think about it all the time.
I mean, I, I think when I'm packing for a trip, it's sort of
in the forefront of my mind. You know, I'm thinking about it
all the time. I'm thinking about why do I feel
the need to tell the story? What can I contribute to the
story that is not being told? Or what angle can Ioffer that's
not being done. You know, what will happen if I
(08:01):
don't come home? How will my kids react?
And I think that it's a, it's a constant dialogue in my head.
And I think I have to, on a sortof, on one hand, I have to just
accept that that's a part of my job.
And that is a decision I've madein in leading this life and
having a family and thinking I can sort of have it all.
(08:23):
And on the other hand, I just tuck it away and I say, you
know, this is a reality and I have to move forward.
But how, how do you get to the point where you say, well,
that's just a reality and I might not come home and my kids
might be without a mother? Well, I think I've been doing
this so long and I've had so many close calls, and yet I keep
coming home. I mean, I I've been kidnapped
(08:44):
twice. I've been thrown out of a car on
a highway in Pakistan. I've been in a Taliban ambush.
I've been ambushed by the Iraqi insurgents.
I've been, I mean, you in Ukraine, I had a mortar land 20
meters from me and killed the family on the other side of the
spray. I mean, it's just it goes on and
on. And I think that somewhere I
have to convince myself that I will come home and I do.
(09:05):
It's not like I'm out in the field taking these insane risks
that are not calculated. I mean, I'm constantly working
with my colleagues, with security advisors to minimize
risk. And I think that I think that
there is a reason I'm still alive because I'm not just
making sort of these careless decisions to go to the front
line with no sort of forethought.
(09:26):
You know, I think there's a, a, a real series of steps we take
to minimize the risk. And that is the reason I think
I'm still here. What what taking part in the
documentary has revealed, though, is that the decision is
perhaps more acute for the family you leave behind.
Correct. I mean, I think, look, there
(09:47):
are, I don't know how many men who do this job with children.
And I, I, it does fascinate me that no one really fixates on
men that have children that thatare frontline correspondents.
But the fact is, I'm a mother and I'm a woman, and it's
natural to wonder how a woman could do this.
And I think. But that that conversation does
happen with men. I mean, it happens with all
(10:07):
journalists. Not very often.
Not as often as with women, I mean.
Not as often. Not as often certainly.
I mean, it's a question that I've been asked since like 3
months after I gave birth. I'm saying, you know, I'm, I'm
always asked that question and Ithink it's fine.
It's a absolutely valid questionand I think it's important.
But the fact is my husband and Iare are a team and we're
(10:30):
partners. And when we decided to have
children, this is how we set it up that he would be the person
at home in the primary caregivercaregiver.
And I think I definitely, since I decided to become a mother, I,
my risks have sort of lessened them.
Certainly before I had kids. I'm not working on frontline
(10:51):
bases as much as I as I was. But war has changed.
You know, we US doesn't have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq
and on the front line anymore. So I'm not doing those military
embeds in Ukraine, for example. It's like drone warfare.
So for me, the risk calculation is not really worth it because,
for example, if there's something I want to do, you
(11:14):
can't. Drones can go 20 kilometers away
from the front line. So everywhere is a risk.
And so it's really, I often I'vesort of pulled back from working
on the front line in Ukraine because you can't make those
calculations. And so I'm constantly thinking
about it. It's really, it's, it's not like
I'm just sort of throwing myselfinto every trench I see.
(11:35):
You know, I think for me, it's really about what is the story I
want to tell? How can I tell it in a way that
is the most safe and in a way that I can come home as a mother
to my children? I mean, I should say I'm I'm
only asking you about this because you've revealed so much
in the documentary. About these?
Things and the way you've been asked about it in the past, how
much of A conscious decision hasthat been on your part to
(11:56):
embrace this within the dock? I don't know how much control
you've had over the dock itself or whether they just made the
film that they wanted to make. They made the film they wanted
to make. I mean, I'm a journalist.
You're a journalist. And, you know, when we cover a
subject, the subject doesn't have a say in in what we do.
And, and that's sort of how I approach this.
When I agreed to do this documentary, I agreed to do it
(12:17):
as a subject. And I wanted to enlighten people
as to the nuances of this job and, and why I do this work.
I wanted to have the the protagonist be a woman rather
than a man because we've seen inso many fictional depictions as
well as nonfiction that that the, the person in focus is
(12:39):
often a man. And so I thought, well, it's
nice that for once it's a woman and that they can see how hard
it is. They can see that I come home
from 7 weeks in Ukraine and my kids are sort of throwing
stuffed animals in my head and telling me they don't like me.
You know, some of that's not in the movie, but that is the
reality, you know, and I think the reality is it's it's life.
(12:59):
And I would do no service to menor women by showing that it's
easy. You know, I think that it is a
difficult life and it's a life I've chosen and I'm volunteering
to do it. It's not like, you know, I was
born into war like so many people around the world who
don't have that choice. And so it's a real privilege for
me to make this decision and to have the ability to go in and
(13:21):
out and to have a family. And that's something that my
husband has been incredibly supportive of.
And so that's, that's why I thought it would be interesting.
And it's also interesting for people to see a man in a
different role. You know, he's the one staying
at home with the kids. And I think that's also
important. I mean.
How comfortable were you being the subject of the of the
portrait rather than the person behind the?
(13:43):
Camera, you know, I, I was fine so long as the the people I was
covering were not implicated or didn't feel uncomfortable.
I think for me, once my husband,me, my children, once everyone
sort of said they felt comfortable, then it was fine.
I mean, I really, I am very blessed to have been raised with
parents who taught me to be comfortable in my skin and to
(14:06):
really believe in my decisions. And so I'm sure there will be
judgement, but that's OK. So to.
Talk a little bit about where you were born into then.
So. How you became a photographer.
So I was raised in Connecticut. I was I my parents are
hairdressers. My dad came out as gay when I
was 8 years old. He left with my mom's best
(14:27):
friend, Bruce, and they've been married for 45 years.
They're still together and we'rea very close family.
I have three older sisters and we're still, we still spend
Christmases together and vacations together, all of us.
And we were raised in this very open household, a household
(14:48):
where there were constantly people coming in and out of the
house, people from all walks of life.
There was never any judgement. It was very much sort of, we
embrace people, certainly peoplewho live on the margins of
society. And I think that's only taught
me to be a better journalist because for me it's really about
meeting people and, and listening to them and providing
(15:09):
them with a voice without judgement.
So. Was that ever a possible of you
being a hairdresser? Never, never.
I just had no interest. I think because I was raised in
such a creative family, I thought, Oh no, I'm going to
have a very intellectual profession.
So I thought I'd be sort of working at the UN or traveling
and doing something. And when I graduated from
(15:32):
university, I studied international relations in
Italian. And when I graduated, the only
thing I wanted to do is photograph.
So I realized with photojournalism I could sort of
combine both. And and how did you, how did you
learn to be a photojournalist? Because that is a particular
type of photography, isn't? It, yes, and it is one of the
(15:53):
few professions where you can still have mentors, you can
really still learn from mentors.And so in the beginning I was
living in Argentina. I went there to study Spanish
and I started kind of taking pictures on the street and then
went into the local English newspaper, the Buenos Aires
Herald, and basically begged them for a job.
And they kept sending me away saying get out of here, get out
(16:15):
of here, you don't speak Spanish.
I learned Spanish. I went back and these two guys
who just sort of chain smoked were the photo department.
They would just pull pictures off the AP wire and fight.
And I kept going back. And then finally one of them
look to me and he's like, OK, you want a job?
If you can sneak on the set of Madonna filming Evita at the
(16:35):
Casa Rosada, get a picture of Madonna, we'll give you a job.
And I was like, OK, so that was my big challenge.
And I went, I remember I went tothe Casa Rosada in Buenos Aires,
and there was like a perimeter of New York bouncers,
essentially. And I went up and I basically
begged my case. I said, you know, can you let me
through? And he's like, you have a press
(16:56):
pass. And I was like, no, but let me
explain to you, if you let me in, I'm going to get a picture
of Madonna and I'm going to be areally famous photographer one
day. And he kind of looked at me and
he's like, you are so pathetic. And he just let me in.
So I got the picture and I got ajob.
And so I stayed there for a year.
And then I went back to New Yorkand I did the same thing
essentially for The Associated Press and I freelanced and, and,
(17:19):
and then I had this incredible mentor, Bibito Matthews, who
every Saturday, he was a photographer for the AP, but
every Saturday who worked as an editor.
And he would call me in every Saturday, send me deep into the
Bronx and all over New York to set to take pictures.
And when I came back, he would just sit with my negatives and
go through them one by one and say, like, you're too far away,
(17:41):
get closer. What's his composition?
Where's the light? Where's the light source?
You know? And, and he taught me.
And so it was like 3 years of working at the AP that really
taught me. So what is the essence then of
of photojournalism photography and how does it differ from art
photography? The essence is telling stories
with pictures, right? It's it's you.
(18:03):
It can be anything really. I mean, some people focus on
news, some people focus on sports.
For me, it's humanitarian crises, conflict, women's
issues. And so it's about going in and
documenting a story the way you would with words but with
photographs. Now given you, you're very open
about wanting to change the world with your work, then I, I
(18:25):
guess people are going to say, well then how how much is in the
control of your composition and what are you leaving out?
And do you come to your photographs with with an agenda?
I think, I think some things arein my control, some things are
out of my control. I mean, I sometimes I'm sent on
(18:46):
assignments or I was for most ofmy career that I would just go
and document because the New York Times said go and do the
story. And I did, of course, because I
would do anything for the New York Times.
And so I, I think now when I'm sent to Ukraine, if I'm watching
a missile strike on a school or a missile strike on a
residential building, obviously I will go in there.
(19:10):
My agenda will be to cover civilian casualties, right?
Because that is a byproduct of war.
Now, whether that makes me biased toward the Ukrainians or
the Russians, I don't think so. I think that just makes me a
human being, right? Because I'm always looking at
the human toll and I'm always looking at sort of a
humanitarian crises like in in Chad and Sudan, right?
(19:31):
So we're seeing a fair amount ofmalnutrition, starvation.
We're seeing people displaced, hundreds of thousands of people
displaced from Sudan because of the ongoing fighting.
And so I'm looking to tell what are the byproducts of that.
So it's malnutrition, displacement, families torn
apart, sexual violence, rampant sexual violence.
(19:52):
And so I go in there knowing that there are certain tenants
of a story and I'm trying to tell them and document them.
And how, what's the way in with people and, and do you get
access to some things that's male photographers are gonna
struggle with thinking about Afghanistan and access to women
(20:14):
in Afghanistan? Sure.
I mean, I've actually made a film in Afghanistan about
violence against women and I filmed in woman's shelters and I
spoke to women in these places. But I would imagine it would
have been a lot easier had I been.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think would you,
Afghanistan is sort of the extreme case, right?
Because it's a society totally segregated by gender.
(20:36):
And so it's very difficult for men to get into those closed
spaces. Whereas for me, I'm allowed in.
I'm a woman. I'm, you know, I'm they're open.
It's not to say women will automatically speak to me
because I think people, especially in the age of social
media, are much more conscious of what they show and reveal to
the world because they know it can be everywhere, you know?
(20:58):
And so I think that's a whole other discussion.
Would women in Afghanistan take the burqa off with you in a way?
Yeah, Oh, yeah. I mean, in fact, what happens
when I go, when I enter a home, no one has failed.
But when I take my camera out, everyone flips A burqa down
because they can't be photographed showing their faces
(21:19):
or their brothers and husbands or fathers would be very angry.
And so to say the least. And so I think that that it
really depends on where I am, mygender.
I use my gender as an asset where I can.
And sometimes it's a hindrance in the sense that when I'm doing
a military embed, certainly there is the initial skepticism
(21:39):
when I show up and they sort of see a woman.
And women are not traditionally on the front lines, especially,
you know, the Pentagon for yearsdid not allow women on the
frontline, although I would say women are on the frontline.
You know, they're they're flyingBlackhawks into hot zones.
They're I mean, they're constantly on the front lines.
So I would say that, you know, for me, I have to prove myself.
(21:59):
I have to show that I can I can keep my cool under fire, I can
keep up physically. And once I do that then it's
fine is. That still the case where he's
got a reputation then? I don't no, I mean, because U.S.
troops are not really on the frontline anymore.
When I've been in Ukraine, Ukraine is, I mean, Ukrainian
women are all over the frontline.
(22:21):
Actually, Ukrainian women are, I, I think some of the toughest
women I've ever seen, you know, and I think.
Is it unique in that respect? I think I think it.
Probably is. It is.
I mean, for me it's I, I've not except for the women fighters in
northern Iraq, Syria, the Kurdish fighters.
I mean, I've not seen women on the frontline as much, yeah.
(22:44):
And, and how you know, what do you, what do you take from the
differences in Ukraine? I mean, look, the, the, the
nature of war is changing so much and it's changing through
the lens of Ukraine right now. And so it's hard to say.
I mean, I think all the tools, at least from my perspective as
a war photographer, all the tools that we have developed
(23:07):
over the years to know how to cover frontline fighting and to
be able to tell these stories have disappeared with drones
because you cannot, there's no way to stay safe.
You know, you really, there's, there's nothing you can do.
I mean, there's Russians have eyes and Ukrainians have eyes
from above. And so you really can't, you
can't walk around positions. You can't do what we used to do.
(23:31):
What difference has everyone having a mobile phone done for
your job and and photojournalismin general?
You know the the proliferation of images from citizen
journalists and just ordinary people.
Yeah, I mean. In a conflict in in terms of
telling the story. It used to be that people were
totally reliant on foreign correspondents and photographers
(23:54):
to tell stories, right? I mean, the first time I went to
Afghanistan in 2000, so 25 yearsago, there were no mobile
phones, there were no phones at all.
There was no television, no nothing.
And so I would go there and essentially re emerge a month
later and it's like I'd been on Venus, you know?
And so all of the stories I gathered there I had a
(24:14):
responsibility to put out to thepublic as these platform, you
know, and I think now people aretelling their own stories.
Look at Gaza. I mean, no international media
has been allowed into Gaza. And so we are totally relying on
Palestinian and journalists, which is incredible that they've
taken such risks and done such an amazing job.
But it's also unfair because they're documenting the funerals
(24:37):
of their own families. They're they're photographing
and and reporting with no food, they're being displaced.
And so, you know, and it's also easy for the Israeli government
to dismiss them as Hamas. So when you don't allow
international media into a place, it's easy to discredit
local journalists, which is ridiculous obviously, because we
(24:57):
know that we've been completely reliant on local journalists to
tell that story. And had you been allowed into
Gaza, do you think journalists would have been targeted in the
same way? In other words, would you?
Would you? Do you think the risk to us
being there would have been much, much greater than any
(25:17):
other conflict because journalists were clearly being
targeted? Or do you think that would have
just changed the behaviour? I think the risk would have been
there because we've seen that journalists have been killed all
over West Bank, Gaza, Israel, for many, many years in the
region. But I, I think, and I could be
(25:40):
wrong, that it would have been less, I think that there would
have been a lot more international backlash if
international media had been killed and targeted.
But I could be wrong. So what?
What difference do you think nothaving international journalists
in Gaza has made to the conflict?
Well, I think that it's been easy for the Israeli government
(26:02):
to be dismissive of the coverageand just say it's fake news or
it's not, it's bias. But obviously we know that's not
the case because we've seen the footage.
I mean, we've seen the how Gaza has been decimated and we've
seen the civilian casualties. We've seen the numbers that it's
over 67,000 people. And there are names and faces to
every one of those people. And so I don't know if I think
(26:25):
if international media had been there, there probably would have
been less collateral damage, there would have been less
targeting of journalists specifically.
Do do you think journalists are more targeted now?
Yes, generally. Than before 100%.
I think when I first started out25 years ago, we used to tape TV
on our cars and announce ourselves as press.
(26:47):
And I think in 2004 journalists started getting kidnapped.
I myself was kidnapped for the first time in 2004 and I think
that there's been a wave since then.
I think journalists are routinely targeted with
impunity. I think Marie Colvin was killed
intentionally by Assad and his forces.
I think, you know, we see journalists targeted, targeted
(27:09):
for their coverage to silence the voices.
And so I think that it's it's pretty clear it's rare that
those cases are actually tried. And so people who do not want
journalists in positions where they will tell stories they
don't want told, they kill them or they silence them.
And. What?
What? What do you think?
(27:30):
But I suppose you're, you're, you're talking over a longer
period of time because if you include Marie Colvin, which was
quite a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
I mean, I suppose I, I think back to Bosnia where people were
also saying for the first time the TV markings and the press
fest don't matter. You know, you, you'll be shot
anyway. But I suppose over the long
periods you're talking about an increase in, in targeting.
(27:53):
What? What do you think that means for
international journalism and your ability to tell the story?
Well, it's one thing to say TV marking yourself as a journalist
doesn't matter. It's another thing to do
anything to not look like a journalist, you know, because
you know that you will be targeted.
You know, it's not just it may happen and now it's a, it is
(28:16):
sort of a they're deliberately targeted.
And so I don't, you know, I don't.
Know you have to sort of act undercover effectively or hide.
I mean, I sometimes I just go low profile and I just go in a
low profile vehicle or I wear, if I'm in the Middle East, I'll
wear hijab. Like I just try to blend in.
And I think that that's sort of the best way for me to work is
(28:38):
to just work as a, as a regular person.
So I suppose what, what what I'mgetting at is, is, is how you
see the future of your trade, you know, do do you think it's
being closed down or do you think there's still.
I don't think it's being closed down.
I think that there are obstaclesand I think that we need to just
(29:00):
work harder to tell, but it's harder to do.
It is harder. It is harder, definitely.
It's harder. And I think access is harder.
I think people are more scared. I think that because there's,
you know, when we are working incertain places, I can say I'm
going there to represent the NewYork Times.
But then that those those stories, those images can go
(29:21):
viral on social media. And then the people feel like
they they realize they have to be very judicious about what
they share with the world because it does.
It's not just contained to a publication anymore where as it
used to be. And in and in terms of changing
the world and changing the way people view a particular
conflict, I mean, do you see yourself as able to affect
(29:46):
change yourself or are you, are you a cog in a machine?
You know, how should you know people who aspire to be in your
job? Think of you know what the goal
is? You know, it's like, can you
change the world as one person or is it being part of a bigger
thing? I think it's both.
I think it's both. I think I'm definitely a cog in
(30:09):
the machine. You know, I'm definitely one of
many people doing this work and one of many extraordinary people
doing this work. I have incredible colleagues,
but I also think that, of course, with every story, I'm
trying to not so much change theworld, but change the open
people's minds, create perspective, educate people,
(30:32):
flip some misconceptions on their head, you know, just
really. And maybe ultimately that leads
to changing the world. And are there any moments you
could talk about the way where you feel you've done that?
Or that you've, I mean, in the, in the documentary, for example,
there's a, there's a scene whereI've photographed Mama C, say a
woman who dies in childbirth andshe hemorrhages and she
(30:53):
hemorrhages on camera. I mean, I'm filming.
And at one point I realized thatI thought she was bleeding too
much and I ran to get the doctor.
The doctor was in surgery. I put on scrubs.
I go into surgery, he's busy. I come back, they take her blood
pressure, it's 60 / 40 or 60 / 30.
They carry her to the doctor, she dies.
(31:14):
And that story that I documentedfrom start to finish, I went
back to the village with her andher family photographed the
funeral. She, she had given birth to
twins and then she died. So that story was published
across 8 pages in Time magazine,and it coincided with a very big
(31:35):
women's conference in Washington, DC So Time magazine
sent 3000 copies of the magazineto the conference.
Someone at Merck, the pharmaceutical company, saw the
story, was so impacted by it that brought it, brought that
and I don't know how many copiesto the board meeting where they
were discussing corporate responsibility.
And at the end of the meeting, they decided not only based on
(31:57):
that story, but in part art to start Merck for mothers and they
put aside $500 million to fight maternal death.
And so that was one of those moments where maybe I changed
the world a little bit. I certainly hope that that story
prevented further maternal deaths.
And and the maternal death rate has gone down by like 40% I
think since 2010. There's a little moment in the
(32:20):
film where your son, I think, isplaying with a camera and you
hear your husband saying you're going to be a photographer like
mommy, and you hear you shoutingoff camera.
He's not going to be a photographer.
Yeah, I barely even let him go to the playground.
Is that how you really feel? No, I, I mean, the gift that my
(32:41):
parents gave me and my sisters was to empower us to let us do
what we believed in. And really the thing that the
thing that they said to us from when we were very little is
follow your heart and do what you love and you'll be
successful. And so for me, it's it's I hope
that I can only do that with my children.
Lindsay Daria, thank you very much indeed.
(33:03):
Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your ways
to change the world. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
I've been kidnapped twice. I've been thrown out of a car on
a highway in Pakistan, I've beenin a Taliban ambush, I've been
ambushed by the Iraqi insurgents.
It goes on and on, and I think that somewhere I have to
convince myself that I will comehome.
I don't know how many men who dothis job with children.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World, the podcast in
(00:22):
which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in
their lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest today is Lindsay Addario, A Pulitzer Prize
winning American photojournalistwho has spent two decades
covering conflict and humanitarian crises across the
globe, travelling to the front lines of some of the world's
most dangerous countries, including Afghanistan, Iraq,
(00:43):
Sudan and Ukraine. She has a string of alarming
personal stories to go with it. She's been detained by the
Libyan army, forced to go through an X-ray scanner three
times by Israeli forces who knewthat she was pregnant at the
time. She's now the subject of a
featured documentary about her life as a conflict journalist,
wife and mother called Love and War.
(01:05):
She once said, I realise with every assignment I do, there is
a chance I might not come home. Lindsay, welcome.
Thank you. If you could change the world,
how would you change it? I guess I'm working on that
right now with my work as a journalist, as a conflict
photographer. With every assignment, I set out
to try to change the world just a little bit for the better.
(01:27):
I'm trying to enlighten people, educate people, show them a
different perspective, maybe change their minds and foreign
policy, and that's sort of the little part I can play in
changing the world. Yeah, I mean, you're, you're
very upfront about that in the in the film, but obviously
you're a journalist. Yeah, you work for the New York
Times. Freelance.
Yeah. And you know, and and and
(01:49):
journalists don't necessarily take defined positions on
things. So when you say you want to
change the world, what do you really mean?
I mean, do you do you, do you? Do you go to a place and go I
want this to stop, I want them to win.
Or what do you mean by that? Well, I think what I'm trying to
do more than anything is inform the world, right?
I'm trying to show what's happening on the ground from any
(02:12):
perspective, from all perspectives that I'm given
access to as a journalist. As you know, a lot is determined
in our coverage by what we can access.
And I think in Ukraine, we've been covering the side of the
Ukrainians because as we see ourcolleagues who try to cover from
the side of Russians or sometimes and often detained or
disappeared. And so I think for me, it's
(02:34):
always about informing the public.
It's about not taking a side personally, but really about
sort of showing what's happeningand documenting.
Now, I, I think the thing that'sperhaps different about you as a
photojournalist compared to a lot of us who go to these same,
same places, is that you, you, you really want to get to the
front. You know, if I go to a war zone,
(02:57):
my aim is not necessarily to getto the shooting bits of the
frontline. You definitely want to be there,
don't you? Well, I trust my mother is not
listening to this podcast because she's in America.
But yeah, I think often the mostinteresting and compelling
stories are happening at the front and happening in the most
dangerous places because they'reoften the stories that are being
(03:20):
under covered or that are more difficult to cover.
So I think it's not always I want to go right to the front,
but certainly in the beginning of the war in Ukraine, for
example, that's where I wanted to be because I wanted to show
what was happening in the impactof the conflict.
But now, for example, three years in, a lot of the stories
I'm doing in Ukraine are pulled back.
(03:41):
You know, they're they're on regular people and how three
years of war has affected lives around the country and not
necessarily on the frontline. So I was documenting a young
girl with retinoblastoma who which would have been treatable,
but her chemotherapy was interrupted by the full scale
invasion. And she died last August.
(04:02):
And I spent the last three months of her life with her.
And so to me, that is a consequence of the full scale of
eight invasion and it's important to cover that.
What's your approach then to thephotography?
I mean, you know, there are somephotographers who just who go
around sort of spraying and thenfind the image they want.
Are you do do you compose more? Do you take?
(04:23):
Your time. So I think when there's news
evolving and breaking news and you're at the beginning, the
first week or few weeks of a war, so much is happening
everywhere. So it's really sort of reacting
to what's happening. And of course, I've covered war
for 2 1/2 half decades now. So I know kind of what to
anticipate, you know, and that'sin the sense that there will be
(04:43):
this frenzy to evacuate. I knew that would be some
indication of the fear. And so I'm looking to convey
emotion. I'm looking to convey the fear.
I'm looking to look at the civilian toll of a conflict.
Certainly as the war goes on, I'm making sort of mental
tallies of, of ways I'd like to tell the story.
And I, I'm always doing reporting.
I'm always looking at what's being published and I'm always
(05:06):
thinking it's not. It's not just about going out
and taking a photograph. It's really about thinking,
researching, reporting, and thenfiguring out how to convey the
story. I think the other thing that
comes over really strongly in the film is, is what your role
is. And I think maybe you should
explain that because I think a lot of people think that there
are journalists and there are photographers, you know, and the
(05:28):
photographer just takes the pictures and obviously those
visiting the industry know that you are the journalist.
Just explain how you work. I mean, what's your role?
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't knowif the way I work is unique to
other photographers, but I know it's, it's definitely how I've
developed my profession is that I'm largely A journalist.
(05:51):
I mean, I, I, I am a journalist.I do a lot of reporting and I do
a lot of interviewing and I photograph, of course, but my
photographs are not that. They're secondary, but they,
they're in tandem with the reporting, you know, and a lot
of the reporting I do informs how I photograph.
So it really depends on the assignment and the war.
(06:13):
For example, I was recently in Sudan for The Atlantic and I was
working with Anne Applebaum, whois a very celebrated journalist,
very respected journalist. And so she did the reporting and
I was just a photographer. So I went along.
I took pictures I had, I had ideas in my head of the
important themes that I wanted to cover.
(06:33):
And so we worked sort of together to make compromises on
where we went each day. But it was really about she did
the reporting. When I'm on my own, I'm often
pitching stories. So I'm finding stories, I'm
pitching them, I'm reporting them, I'm doing long interviews
and I'm photographing them and often shooting video as well.
So it's really comprehensive, but it depends on the
(06:56):
publication. It depends on the assignment.
And yeah, but I think overall, I'm definitely not just a
photographer. I'm really a photojournalist and
I'm doing both. But this whole question of risk,
I mean, you know, when you, whenyou say things like, well,
you're aware you might not come home.
I mean, in a way that's true of all journalists and all wars.
(07:18):
But, but I think it's it's perhaps more acute for you
because you want, you do seek out the front lines and the the
dangerous places. Do you, do you think about it or
is it just, is it only in reflection?
Somebody asks you thinking aboutthe risk and and the implication
of the risk is you're a mother of two.
(07:38):
No, I think about it all the time.
I mean, I, I think when I'm packing for a trip, it's sort of
in the forefront of my mind. You know, I'm thinking about it
all the time. I'm thinking about why do I feel
the need to tell the story? What can I contribute to the
story that is not being told? Or what angle can Ioffer that's
not being done. You know, what will happen if I
(08:01):
don't come home? How will my kids react?
And I think that it's a, it's a constant dialogue in my head.
And I think I have to, on a sortof, on one hand, I have to just
accept that that's a part of my job.
And that is a decision I've madein in leading this life and
having a family and thinking I can sort of have it all.
(08:23):
And on the other hand, I just tuck it away and I say, you
know, this is a reality and I have to move forward.
But how, how do you get to the point where you say, well,
that's just a reality and I might not come home and my kids
might be without a mother? Well, I think I've been doing
this so long and I've had so many close calls, and yet I keep
coming home. I mean, I I've been kidnapped
(08:44):
twice. I've been thrown out of a car on
a highway in Pakistan. I've been in a Taliban ambush.
I've been ambushed by the Iraqi insurgents.
I've been, I mean, you in Ukraine, I had a mortar land 20
meters from me and killed the family on the other side of the
spray. I mean, it's just it goes on and
on. And I think that somewhere I
have to convince myself that I will come home and I do.
(09:05):
It's not like I'm out in the field taking these insane risks
that are not calculated. I mean, I'm constantly working
with my colleagues, with security advisors to minimize
risk. And I think that I think that
there is a reason I'm still alive because I'm not just
making sort of these careless decisions to go to the front
line with no sort of forethought.
(09:26):
You know, I think there's a, a, a real series of steps we take
to minimize the risk. And that is the reason I think
I'm still here. What what taking part in the
documentary has revealed, though, is that the decision is
perhaps more acute for the family you leave behind.
Correct. I mean, I think, look, there
(09:47):
are, I don't know how many men who do this job with children.
And I, I, it does fascinate me that no one really fixates on
men that have children that thatare frontline correspondents.
But the fact is, I'm a mother and I'm a woman, and it's
natural to wonder how a woman could do this.
And I think. But that that conversation does
happen with men. I mean, it happens with all
(10:07):
journalists. Not very often.
Not as often as with women, I mean.
Not as often. Not as often certainly.
I mean, it's a question that I've been asked since like 3
months after I gave birth. I'm saying, you know, I'm, I'm
always asked that question and Ithink it's fine.
It's a absolutely valid questionand I think it's important.
But the fact is my husband and Iare are a team and we're
(10:30):
partners. And when we decided to have
children, this is how we set it up that he would be the person
at home in the primary caregivercaregiver.
And I think I definitely, since I decided to become a mother, I,
my risks have sort of lessened them.
Certainly before I had kids. I'm not working on frontline
(10:51):
bases as much as I as I was. But war has changed.
You know, we US doesn't have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq
and on the front line anymore. So I'm not doing those military
embeds in Ukraine, for example. It's like drone warfare.
So for me, the risk calculation is not really worth it because,
for example, if there's something I want to do, you
(11:14):
can't. Drones can go 20 kilometers away
from the front line. So everywhere is a risk.
And so it's really, I often I'vesort of pulled back from working
on the front line in Ukraine because you can't make those
calculations. And so I'm constantly thinking
about it. It's really, it's, it's not like
I'm just sort of throwing myselfinto every trench I see.
(11:35):
You know, I think for me, it's really about what is the story I
want to tell? How can I tell it in a way that
is the most safe and in a way that I can come home as a mother
to my children? I mean, I should say I'm I'm
only asking you about this because you've revealed so much
in the documentary. About these?
Things and the way you've been asked about it in the past, how
much of A conscious decision hasthat been on your part to
(11:56):
embrace this within the dock? I don't know how much control
you've had over the dock itself or whether they just made the
film that they wanted to make. They made the film they wanted
to make. I mean, I'm a journalist.
You're a journalist. And, you know, when we cover a
subject, the subject doesn't have a say in in what we do.
And, and that's sort of how I approach this.
When I agreed to do this documentary, I agreed to do it
(12:17):
as a subject. And I wanted to enlighten people
as to the nuances of this job and, and why I do this work.
I wanted to have the the protagonist be a woman rather
than a man because we've seen inso many fictional depictions as
well as nonfiction that that the, the person in focus is
(12:39):
often a man. And so I thought, well, it's
nice that for once it's a woman and that they can see how hard
it is. They can see that I come home
from 7 weeks in Ukraine and my kids are sort of throwing
stuffed animals in my head and telling me they don't like me.
You know, some of that's not in the movie, but that is the
reality, you know, and I think the reality is it's it's life.
(12:59):
And I would do no service to menor women by showing that it's
easy. You know, I think that it is a
difficult life and it's a life I've chosen and I'm volunteering
to do it. It's not like, you know, I was
born into war like so many people around the world who
don't have that choice. And so it's a real privilege for
me to make this decision and to have the ability to go in and
(13:21):
out and to have a family. And that's something that my
husband has been incredibly supportive of.
And so that's, that's why I thought it would be interesting.
And it's also interesting for people to see a man in a
different role. You know, he's the one staying
at home with the kids. And I think that's also
important. I mean.
How comfortable were you being the subject of the of the
portrait rather than the person behind the?
(13:43):
Camera, you know, I, I was fine so long as the the people I was
covering were not implicated or didn't feel uncomfortable.
I think for me, once my husband,me, my children, once everyone
sort of said they felt comfortable, then it was fine.
I mean, I really, I am very blessed to have been raised with
parents who taught me to be comfortable in my skin and to
(14:06):
really believe in my decisions. And so I'm sure there will be
judgement, but that's OK. So to.
Talk a little bit about where you were born into then.
So. How you became a photographer.
So I was raised in Connecticut. I was I my parents are
hairdressers. My dad came out as gay when I
was 8 years old. He left with my mom's best
(14:27):
friend, Bruce, and they've been married for 45 years.
They're still together and we'rea very close family.
I have three older sisters and we're still, we still spend
Christmases together and vacations together, all of us.
And we were raised in this very open household, a household
(14:48):
where there were constantly people coming in and out of the
house, people from all walks of life.
There was never any judgement. It was very much sort of, we
embrace people, certainly peoplewho live on the margins of
society. And I think that's only taught
me to be a better journalist because for me it's really about
meeting people and, and listening to them and providing
(15:09):
them with a voice without judgement.
So. Was that ever a possible of you
being a hairdresser? Never, never.
I just had no interest. I think because I was raised in
such a creative family, I thought, Oh no, I'm going to
have a very intellectual profession.
So I thought I'd be sort of working at the UN or traveling
and doing something. And when I graduated from
(15:32):
university, I studied international relations in
Italian. And when I graduated, the only
thing I wanted to do is photograph.
So I realized with photojournalism I could sort of
combine both. And and how did you, how did you
learn to be a photojournalist? Because that is a particular
type of photography, isn't? It, yes, and it is one of the
(15:53):
few professions where you can still have mentors, you can
really still learn from mentors.And so in the beginning I was
living in Argentina. I went there to study Spanish
and I started kind of taking pictures on the street and then
went into the local English newspaper, the Buenos Aires
Herald, and basically begged them for a job.
And they kept sending me away saying get out of here, get out
(16:15):
of here, you don't speak Spanish.
I learned Spanish. I went back and these two guys
who just sort of chain smoked were the photo department.
They would just pull pictures off the AP wire and fight.
And I kept going back. And then finally one of them
look to me and he's like, OK, you want a job?
If you can sneak on the set of Madonna filming Evita at the
(16:35):
Casa Rosada, get a picture of Madonna, we'll give you a job.
And I was like, OK, so that was my big challenge.
And I went, I remember I went tothe Casa Rosada in Buenos Aires,
and there was like a perimeter of New York bouncers,
essentially. And I went up and I basically
begged my case. I said, you know, can you let me
through? And he's like, you have a press
(16:56):
pass. And I was like, no, but let me
explain to you, if you let me in, I'm going to get a picture
of Madonna and I'm going to be areally famous photographer one
day. And he kind of looked at me and
he's like, you are so pathetic. And he just let me in.
So I got the picture and I got ajob.
And so I stayed there for a year.
And then I went back to New Yorkand I did the same thing
essentially for The Associated Press and I freelanced and, and,
(17:19):
and then I had this incredible mentor, Bibito Matthews, who
every Saturday, he was a photographer for the AP, but
every Saturday who worked as an editor.
And he would call me in every Saturday, send me deep into the
Bronx and all over New York to set to take pictures.
And when I came back, he would just sit with my negatives and
go through them one by one and say, like, you're too far away,
(17:41):
get closer. What's his composition?
Where's the light? Where's the light source?
You know? And, and he taught me.
And so it was like 3 years of working at the AP that really
taught me. So what is the essence then of
of photojournalism photography and how does it differ from art
photography? The essence is telling stories
with pictures, right? It's it's you.
(18:03):
It can be anything really. I mean, some people focus on
news, some people focus on sports.
For me, it's humanitarian crises, conflict, women's
issues. And so it's about going in and
documenting a story the way you would with words but with
photographs. Now given you, you're very open
about wanting to change the world with your work, then I, I
(18:25):
guess people are going to say, well then how how much is in the
control of your composition and what are you leaving out?
And do you come to your photographs with with an agenda?
I think, I think some things arein my control, some things are
out of my control. I mean, I sometimes I'm sent on
(18:46):
assignments or I was for most ofmy career that I would just go
and document because the New York Times said go and do the
story. And I did, of course, because I
would do anything for the New York Times.
And so I, I think now when I'm sent to Ukraine, if I'm watching
a missile strike on a school or a missile strike on a
residential building, obviously I will go in there.
(19:10):
My agenda will be to cover civilian casualties, right?
Because that is a byproduct of war.
Now, whether that makes me biased toward the Ukrainians or
the Russians, I don't think so. I think that just makes me a
human being, right? Because I'm always looking at
the human toll and I'm always looking at sort of a
humanitarian crises like in in Chad and Sudan, right?
(19:31):
So we're seeing a fair amount ofmalnutrition, starvation.
We're seeing people displaced, hundreds of thousands of people
displaced from Sudan because of the ongoing fighting.
And so I'm looking to tell what are the byproducts of that.
So it's malnutrition, displacement, families torn
apart, sexual violence, rampant sexual violence.
(19:52):
And so I go in there knowing that there are certain tenants
of a story and I'm trying to tell them and document them.
And how, what's the way in with people and, and do you get
access to some things that's male photographers are gonna
struggle with thinking about Afghanistan and access to women
(20:14):
in Afghanistan? Sure.
I mean, I've actually made a film in Afghanistan about
violence against women and I filmed in woman's shelters and I
spoke to women in these places. But I would imagine it would
have been a lot easier had I been.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think would you,
Afghanistan is sort of the extreme case, right?
Because it's a society totally segregated by gender.
(20:36):
And so it's very difficult for men to get into those closed
spaces. Whereas for me, I'm allowed in.
I'm a woman. I'm, you know, I'm they're open.
It's not to say women will automatically speak to me
because I think people, especially in the age of social
media, are much more conscious of what they show and reveal to
the world because they know it can be everywhere, you know?
(20:58):
And so I think that's a whole other discussion.
Would women in Afghanistan take the burqa off with you in a way?
Yeah, Oh, yeah. I mean, in fact, what happens
when I go, when I enter a home, no one has failed.
But when I take my camera out, everyone flips A burqa down
because they can't be photographed showing their faces
(21:19):
or their brothers and husbands or fathers would be very angry.
And so to say the least. And so I think that that it
really depends on where I am, mygender.
I use my gender as an asset where I can.
And sometimes it's a hindrance in the sense that when I'm doing
a military embed, certainly there is the initial skepticism
(21:39):
when I show up and they sort of see a woman.
And women are not traditionally on the front lines, especially,
you know, the Pentagon for yearsdid not allow women on the
frontline, although I would say women are on the frontline.
You know, they're they're flyingBlackhawks into hot zones.
They're I mean, they're constantly on the front lines.
So I would say that, you know, for me, I have to prove myself.
(21:59):
I have to show that I can I can keep my cool under fire, I can
keep up physically. And once I do that then it's
fine is. That still the case where he's
got a reputation then? I don't no, I mean, because U.S.
troops are not really on the frontline anymore.
When I've been in Ukraine, Ukraine is, I mean, Ukrainian
women are all over the frontline.
(22:21):
Actually, Ukrainian women are, I, I think some of the toughest
women I've ever seen, you know, and I think.
Is it unique in that respect? I think I think it.
Probably is. It is.
I mean, for me it's I, I've not except for the women fighters in
northern Iraq, Syria, the Kurdish fighters.
I mean, I've not seen women on the frontline as much, yeah.
(22:44):
And, and how you know, what do you, what do you take from the
differences in Ukraine? I mean, look, the, the, the
nature of war is changing so much and it's changing through
the lens of Ukraine right now. And so it's hard to say.
I mean, I think all the tools, at least from my perspective as
a war photographer, all the tools that we have developed
(23:07):
over the years to know how to cover frontline fighting and to
be able to tell these stories have disappeared with drones
because you cannot, there's no way to stay safe.
You know, you really, there's, there's nothing you can do.
I mean, there's Russians have eyes and Ukrainians have eyes
from above. And so you really can't, you
can't walk around positions. You can't do what we used to do.
(23:31):
What difference has everyone having a mobile phone done for
your job and and photojournalismin general?
You know the the proliferation of images from citizen
journalists and just ordinary people.
Yeah, I mean. In a conflict in in terms of
telling the story. It used to be that people were
totally reliant on foreign correspondents and photographers
(23:54):
to tell stories, right? I mean, the first time I went to
Afghanistan in 2000, so 25 yearsago, there were no mobile
phones, there were no phones at all.
There was no television, no nothing.
And so I would go there and essentially re emerge a month
later and it's like I'd been on Venus, you know?
And so all of the stories I gathered there I had a
(24:14):
responsibility to put out to thepublic as these platform, you
know, and I think now people aretelling their own stories.
Look at Gaza. I mean, no international media
has been allowed into Gaza. And so we are totally relying on
Palestinian and journalists, which is incredible that they've
taken such risks and done such an amazing job.
But it's also unfair because they're documenting the funerals
(24:37):
of their own families. They're they're photographing
and and reporting with no food, they're being displaced.
And so, you know, and it's also easy for the Israeli government
to dismiss them as Hamas. So when you don't allow
international media into a place, it's easy to discredit
local journalists, which is ridiculous obviously, because we
(24:57):
know that we've been completely reliant on local journalists to
tell that story. And had you been allowed into
Gaza, do you think journalists would have been targeted in the
same way? In other words, would you?
Would you? Do you think the risk to us
being there would have been much, much greater than any
(25:17):
other conflict because journalists were clearly being
targeted? Or do you think that would have
just changed the behaviour? I think the risk would have been
there because we've seen that journalists have been killed all
over West Bank, Gaza, Israel, for many, many years in the
region. But I, I think, and I could be
(25:40):
wrong, that it would have been less, I think that there would
have been a lot more international backlash if
international media had been killed and targeted.
But I could be wrong. So what?
What difference do you think nothaving international journalists
in Gaza has made to the conflict?
Well, I think that it's been easy for the Israeli government
(26:02):
to be dismissive of the coverageand just say it's fake news or
it's not, it's bias. But obviously we know that's not
the case because we've seen the footage.
I mean, we've seen the how Gaza has been decimated and we've
seen the civilian casualties. We've seen the numbers that it's
over 67,000 people. And there are names and faces to
every one of those people. And so I don't know if I think
(26:25):
if international media had been there, there probably would have
been less collateral damage, there would have been less
targeting of journalists specifically.
Do do you think journalists are more targeted now?
Yes, generally. Than before 100%.
I think when I first started out25 years ago, we used to tape TV
on our cars and announce ourselves as press.
(26:47):
And I think in 2004 journalists started getting kidnapped.
I myself was kidnapped for the first time in 2004 and I think
that there's been a wave since then.
I think journalists are routinely targeted with
impunity. I think Marie Colvin was killed
intentionally by Assad and his forces.
I think, you know, we see journalists targeted, targeted
(27:09):
for their coverage to silence the voices.
And so I think that it's it's pretty clear it's rare that
those cases are actually tried. And so people who do not want
journalists in positions where they will tell stories they
don't want told, they kill them or they silence them.
And. What?
What? What do you think?
(27:30):
But I suppose you're, you're, you're talking over a longer
period of time because if you include Marie Colvin, which was
quite a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
I mean, I suppose I, I think back to Bosnia where people were
also saying for the first time the TV markings and the press
fest don't matter. You know, you, you'll be shot
anyway. But I suppose over the long
periods you're talking about an increase in, in targeting.
(27:53):
What? What do you think that means for
international journalism and your ability to tell the story?
Well, it's one thing to say TV marking yourself as a journalist
doesn't matter. It's another thing to do
anything to not look like a journalist, you know, because
you know that you will be targeted.
You know, it's not just it may happen and now it's a, it is
(28:16):
sort of a they're deliberately targeted.
And so I don't, you know, I don't.
Know you have to sort of act undercover effectively or hide.
I mean, I sometimes I just go low profile and I just go in a
low profile vehicle or I wear, if I'm in the Middle East, I'll
wear hijab. Like I just try to blend in.
And I think that that's sort of the best way for me to work is
(28:38):
to just work as a, as a regular person.
So I suppose what, what what I'mgetting at is, is, is how you
see the future of your trade, you know, do do you think it's
being closed down or do you think there's still.
I don't think it's being closed down.
I think that there are obstaclesand I think that we need to just
(29:00):
work harder to tell, but it's harder to do.
It is harder. It is harder, definitely.
It's harder. And I think access is harder.
I think people are more scared. I think that because there's,
you know, when we are working incertain places, I can say I'm
going there to represent the NewYork Times.
But then that those those stories, those images can go
(29:21):
viral on social media. And then the people feel like
they they realize they have to be very judicious about what
they share with the world because it does.
It's not just contained to a publication anymore where as it
used to be. And in and in terms of changing
the world and changing the way people view a particular
conflict, I mean, do you see yourself as able to affect
(29:46):
change yourself or are you, are you a cog in a machine?
You know, how should you know people who aspire to be in your
job? Think of you know what the goal
is? You know, it's like, can you
change the world as one person or is it being part of a bigger
thing? I think it's both.
I think it's both. I think I'm definitely a cog in
(30:09):
the machine. You know, I'm definitely one of
many people doing this work and one of many extraordinary people
doing this work. I have incredible colleagues,
but I also think that, of course, with every story, I'm
trying to not so much change theworld, but change the open
people's minds, create perspective, educate people,
(30:32):
flip some misconceptions on their head, you know, just
really. And maybe ultimately that leads
to changing the world. And are there any moments you
could talk about the way where you feel you've done that?
Or that you've, I mean, in the, in the documentary, for example,
there's a, there's a scene whereI've photographed Mama C, say a
woman who dies in childbirth andshe hemorrhages and she
(30:53):
hemorrhages on camera. I mean, I'm filming.
And at one point I realized thatI thought she was bleeding too
much and I ran to get the doctor.
The doctor was in surgery. I put on scrubs.
I go into surgery, he's busy. I come back, they take her blood
pressure, it's 60 / 40 or 60 / 30.
They carry her to the doctor, she dies.
(31:14):
And that story that I documentedfrom start to finish, I went
back to the village with her andher family photographed the
funeral. She, she had given birth to
twins and then she died. So that story was published
across 8 pages in Time magazine,and it coincided with a very big
(31:35):
women's conference in Washington, DC So Time magazine
sent 3000 copies of the magazineto the conference.
Someone at Merck, the pharmaceutical company, saw the
story, was so impacted by it that brought it, brought that
and I don't know how many copiesto the board meeting where they
were discussing corporate responsibility.
And at the end of the meeting, they decided not only based on
(31:57):
that story, but in part art to start Merck for mothers and they
put aside $500 million to fight maternal death.
And so that was one of those moments where maybe I changed
the world a little bit. I certainly hope that that story
prevented further maternal deaths.
And and the maternal death rate has gone down by like 40% I
think since 2010. There's a little moment in the
(32:20):
film where your son, I think, isplaying with a camera and you
hear your husband saying you're going to be a photographer like
mommy, and you hear you shoutingoff camera.
He's not going to be a photographer.
Yeah, I barely even let him go to the playground.
Is that how you really feel? No, I, I mean, the gift that my
(32:41):
parents gave me and my sisters was to empower us to let us do
what we believed in. And really the thing that the
thing that they said to us from when we were very little is
follow your heart and do what you love and you'll be
successful. And so for me, it's it's I hope
that I can only do that with my children.
Lindsay Daria, thank you very much indeed.
(33:03):
Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your ways
to change the world. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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