February 27, 2025 • 54 mins
In today’s episode of the *Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I chat with Juliet Peters, founder of Framework Legal, a boutique transactional law firm based in Scottsdale, Arizona. Juliet launched her firm in 2014 with a mission to provide business owners with strategic legal solutions, particularly in fractional general counsel services and business transitions, including mergers and acquisitions (M&A).
With a background in journalism and public sector work before entering law, Juliet’s career has spanned multiple industries, giving her unique insights into the challenges entrepreneurs face when growing and exiting their businesses. She has built a firm that prioritizes client collaboration, risk minimization, and business success.
Listen in as Juliet and I discuss:
- How fractional general counsel services help businesses navigate contracts, risk, and employment challenges.
- The evolving M&A landscape for small businesses and why many business owners struggle to sell.
- The unique challenges of Arizona’s Alternative Business Structures (ABS), allowing non-lawyer ownership in law firms.
- Why many business owners undervalue or overvalue their companies and how proper legal structuring impacts an exit strategy.
- How women lawyers can think beyond solo practice and explore growth through acquisition.
- The importance of mentorship, community, and resilience in building a sustainable and profitable law practice.
Go here to listen.
Go here to watch.
LINKS TO LOVE:
To learn more about Juliet Peters and Framework Legal, visit frameworklegal.com or connect with Juliet on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram.
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Ready to scale your law firm and build a practice that aligns with your values? Check out our new training: "3 Beliefs Preventing You From Attaining Your $1M+ Law Firm and Millionaire Lifestyle" (And How to Turn it All Around in 90 Days and Finally Get What You Want Most).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What if
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers? Ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more. Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Davina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove.
Davina is founder and CEO ofWealthy Woman Lawyer, and her
goal is to give you theinformation you need to scale
your law firm business from 6 to7 figures in gross annual
revenue so you can fully fundand still have time to enjoy the
(00:45):
lifestyle of your dreams. Now,here's Divina.
Davina (00:51):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy
Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm yourhost, Divina Frederick. And my
guest today is Juliette Peters.Juliette started framework legal
in 02/2014 with the mission ofbuilding a client center
business law firm that wouldwork in lockstep with its
clients, providing them with thestrategy solutions and
confidence they needed to scaletheir businesses. Building a
(01:14):
business that scales can bedifficult and Juliet understands
the challenges of growing abusiness because she runs one
herself.
Framework legal's process startswith open dialogue. They invest
in understanding your theirclients' unique teams and goals
and guide them in creating theright vehicle for success. They
also work to minimize risk totheir clients' businesses and
(01:36):
maximize benefits for bothroutine and transformative
transactions. Juliet's firm isbased in Scottsdale, Arizona,
where they serve businessclients throughout the state.
Hi, Juliette, and welcome.
I'm so glad to have you herefrom Phoenix, Arizona. I'm so
grateful to be here. Good. Good.So I have, introduced you, but
(01:59):
I'd like to hear a little bitmore from you.
Let's start with, just your lawfirm and the clients you serve
and the type of services youprovide for them.
Juliet (02:10):
So, I am a boutique transactional firm, and, the
name of the firm is FrameworkLegal, and I focus mostly on
kind of two verticals. One isoutside or fractional general
counsel work, and that'severything from helping, you
know, companies do all of theircontracts, derisk, light
(02:32):
employment, anything that abusiness owner might face day to
day. And, typically, those arebusinesses that, you know,
exceed about a million dollarsin revenue. They're not big
enough that they have an inside,counsel. Right?
So they have frequent needs, butthey don't have somebody in
(02:54):
house. And then the second partof the business is really
focused on business transitions.And so that's mergers and
acquisitions, that is internalsales, that might be identifying
and finding some kind ofinternal successor or whether or
not someone might go down theESOP road. So those are kind of
(03:18):
the the, you know, areas that Iprobably focus the most of my
attention on. Sometimes I helpexecutives when they have
executive employment agreements,and those come with, any kind of
an option or something likethat.
I have a group of employmentattorneys I work with who are
uncomfortable diligencing theinternal investment thing, but I
(03:40):
would say that's a pretty smallpart of the practice.
Davina (03:43):
Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about the verticals that you
serve. What industries do youtend to work with?
Juliet (03:49):
So I am pretty much industry agnostic. I really
don't have, you know, anyindustries that I serve more
than any others. I would say theonly thing I really don't do is
deep doctor medical practices.So I have you know, there are a
couple of people in Phoenix whoreally do that work. And, so I
(04:12):
but I do have home health careproviders, dentists, you know,
and those sort of ancillarypractice components, just not
doctors themselves.
But I have people in allindustries, you know, software
as a service, all kinds ofprofessional service providers.
In Arizona, we have, specialtylawyer things called alternative
(04:35):
business structures or ABSs,which allow non lawyers to have
ownership interests. So in inlaw firms, and so I do some of
that.
Davina (04:45):
Different from most other states.
Juliet (04:48):
Hugely different. There's only a handful of states
doing it, and, we have a hundredI I was just looking, like, we
have a hundred and seven, lawbusinesses that have nonlawyer
ownership. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.Yeah.
It's really interesting.
Davina (05:05):
Yeah. It is. I think I think that's something that,
lawyers are always concernedabout when they when they see
that. But I can see wherethere's a there's a market for
it. Certainly, there are peoplewho might be, business investors
or Yeah.
People even people who aremarried to lawyers who own the
(05:27):
firm or something might havesome interest or whatever that
they wanna protect. It's it'sit's a fascinating area, I'm
sure. And you guys are probablyforging the path a little bit
Yes.
Juliet (05:37):
In that. Absolutely. Yeah. Washington kinda started.
They did some experimentation,then Arizona, and and and Utah
has what's called a sandbox.
Right? So they allow some ofthat to go on, but Arizona is
really I mean, we took a a rule,away, that, you know, since you
(05:58):
have lawyers who listen to yourpodcast, the rule that would
allow us to fee share is gone.So we can share fees with non
lawyers and other lawyers do feesplits. And then we have this
whole ABS thing. And then inaddition to that, we have what
are called paraprofessionals whoare working in, you know,
(06:21):
criminal family, and they workunder the supervision of a
lawyer, but it's essentially aparalegal who is doing the heavy
lifting and will even appear incourt.
So it's really kind ofinteresting. And that the whole
purpose of this was to kindaopen the playing field for
access to justice. Whether ornot that's actually doing that,
(06:42):
I'm not exactly sure yet becausea lot of the ABSs are not in the
access to justice universe. So
Davina (06:51):
Right. Right. Exactly. What what yeah. What is access
to justice?
What does that include? Right?So Right. What was there, and
and we're we're gonna come backbecause Yeah. I don't wanna
spend too long on this, but Ijust I'm curious now.
Was there a a perceived shortageof lawyers, is kind of what led
to this? Well, I mean,
Juliet (07:11):
it so nationwide, the statistic isn't there's a
perceived shortage of lawyers.Right? And we definitely don't
have a shortage of lawyer,lawyers in Arizona. What it is
is a, shortage, an actualshortage in cost effective
lawyers for people in areas likelandlord tenant, certain
(07:32):
criminal cases, and family law.Right?
People end up having to go italone because they can't afford
a lawyer. Right? And so this wassupposed to be one of the ways
that you would deal with that,kind of a gap, if you will,
between legal services thatreally are needed in the
community, and the cost of legalservices generally. What's
(07:57):
happened, at least from where Isit is, it's a lot of, it's a
lot of class action. It's a lotof, you know, personal injury.
It's those things where therealready are players that are
nonlawyers. You know, there'smarketing companies and all of
(08:17):
this. So that's kind of I wouldsay, based on what I just saw,
that's probably the vastmajority of these. Now there are
some that are really interestinglike lawyers. This has been a
godsend for lawyers who are bothCPAs, right, and lawyers because
they were having to run twodifferent businesses.
(08:38):
Right? And so this allows themto have everything they do, CPA
services and law services underone platform. And I just noticed
also KPMG was just approved. Soit's really gonna change the
practice. And the bigger playerslike KPMG or, you know, there
were a number of, what used tobe called alternative legal
(09:00):
service providers or all sets,who now have, firms in Arizona.
And their goal is to drive alltheir legal work through Arizona
because then that opens up or atleast they believe it opens up
50 state practice. So it's it'sinteresting. It's a fascinating
area. So
Davina (09:18):
Yeah. And I think there's gonna be a lot of,
unintended consequences that maycome out of that Yeah. As a
result of that. Because, youknow, they could have limited if
the access to justice was theycould have said in these areas
of practice.
Juliet (09:31):
Yeah. I know. Yeah.
Davina (09:32):
As a lawyer and a business owner, how are you
finding it, to have this kind ofcompetition in your state?
Juliet (09:41):
I haven't really felt it personally yet. I think there
are a lot of things that arechanging the way we practice
law. Right? So, AI is a hugeone. Right?
And what that is gonna looklike, how that will shake out,
it's fundamentally going todepress the price of what I
would call documents. Right? Ido believe that, you know, I've
(10:08):
always been one who isinterested in new things and new
delivery methods. I do thinkthat there is some upside to all
of these. And, you know, I thinkfor creative lawyers, we were
always kind of hemmed in by therules.
And I don't mean, you know, justbreaking the rules to break
them. I mean, you know, if youwanted to take an interest in a
(10:32):
company instead of get paid, youknow, you have to do all of
these disclosures very statespecific. Right? Mhmm. But I
think that, it hasn't I haven'tseen it yet as a negative.
I don't think up until thispoint, most of these service
providers have not gotten a lotof traction. It'll be
(10:53):
interesting to see what happenswith a KPMG level, somebody
coming in who really, you know,is already heavily involved in a
professional services across theboard, what that begins to look
like. But I think at lawyers, wealways kinda have to be
sensitive to how the market ischanging, and the market is
(11:13):
changing rapidly. It's changingfor those of us who have been in
practice for a while, and it'sit's also on the other end
changing for people who arecoming out of law school and
simply don't have the training,or access to the training
resources that they really needto become practitioners. That
was always something that wasleft to firms, and further to
(11:38):
stop hiring at the level theywere hiring.
And even when they do, thepressure for their associates to
perform quickly and be bringingmoney in the door sort of has,
you know, really impactedtraining programs and the day to
day way that I learned, forexample, in a large firm to be a
(11:58):
lawyer. Right? Right. Right.It's different.
And that the great thing is I'ma huge proponent of starting
your own practice. I believe forwomen particularly, that is the
key to the kingdom. Having saidthat, I think that it's I see a
lot of younger lawyers who justdon't have the practice skill
(12:20):
set because that wasn'tdeveloped in them. Yeah.
Davina (12:25):
Yeah. Well, I think there's a, there's this issue of
young lawyers too. I don'treally know that all big firms
train young lawyers. I think alot of them put them in the
backroom, throw them meat, andsay, bill, bill, bill, bill,
bill.
Juliet (12:42):
Yep.
Davina (12:42):
And I think a lot of young lawyers are going out and
immediately starting theirpractice because they might try
to work someplace, and they getshocked at what it means to be a
lawyer. And the requirementsbeing lawyer, it's not an
hourly. I get to leave at 05:00.I'm hearing a lot of stories
about this. People saying I'mhiring a baby lawyer.
They're coming in and they'recrying because they've never
(13:04):
worked before and they have nosoft skills and they don't
understand the work ethic or therequirement of the job or
whatever. And they're wanting toleave early to go to the gym if
they work one day late. Andthese are true actual, you know,
Juliet (13:17):
stories that people told me.
Davina (13:19):
And so then you have these young lawyers who are
saying, well, I'm gonna go startmy own law firm. And because I
want work life balance, and Iand I think there's a, I'm a
huge advocate of work lifebalance for lawyers, but I my
particular method is aroundbuilding a firm and then putting
(13:39):
yourself in that position asopposed to being the worker in
the firm. Right? Building yourown firm. But I also think there
is a, you know, there is adanger of people, you know, not
being the best lawyers when theystart, and not having anybody
there as a safeguard of them.
But on the flip side, I've seenpeople work at a firm for years
(14:00):
and then go out and try to starttheir own, and they literally
don't know how to they know howto do one thing that they
learned at that firm. So I don'tthink there's a broad spectrum
of training that a lot of firmsprovide anyway. It's a gap. And
I think ultimately, lawyers areresponsible for getting as it
has always been, we'reresponsible for getting our own
training Yes. And making surethat we are competent to
(14:22):
practice in our area, you know,and that may require a little
extra homework, a little extrawork to do it, you know.
Yes. And I wanna go back andtell your story because so
people understand yourframework, where you come from.
So Right. Let's talk about howyou started your legal career.
Juliet (14:38):
So law is a second career for me, not even my first
career. I went to uni thecollege just thinking that I was
going to, take a really greatpre, law set of courses, which
was journalism. Right? Mhmm. Andthen I fell in love with
journalism, and I thought tomyself, well, if I'm gonna do
(15:00):
that, I have to do that when I'myoung, and I can move around a
lot, and I don't have, you know,a lot of things tying me down.
I can get to law school, youknow, when I'm a little bit
older. And that's what I did. Iworked for a decade as a working
journalist, and then in my midthirties, I went back to law
school. And, you know, I wouldsay for me, a couple of things
(15:23):
happened. Number one, I youcould have the only thing I was
ever around as a lawyer wasprosecutors.
Right? And so I expected I wasgoing to become a prosecutor.
That is what I went in for.Right? And nobody was more
shocked than I was that I endedup, you know, in a civil
litigation firm doing civillitigation.
(15:45):
Right? And I just really lovedthe business thing. And so I
litigated for, around six years.I had an opportunity to go into,
the, attorney general's officein Arizona doing a hybrid, you
(16:06):
know, journalism and, andspecial counsel role. So I did
that, and then I worked in housein a company, for a big
franchise company.
And then I went back into theattorney general's office for a
cleanup. They had, their largestdivision, which was what served
(16:27):
child and family protection, inArizona, had a bar complaint
because of the way they werewriting their petitions. And so
I had a real cleanup and that,you know, I supervised, like,
380 people there. Oh, wow. Andso when I was finishing up there
because the AG was turned out, Iknew that I could go back into a
(16:49):
firm, but I was gonna have topick litigation or
transactional.
And I wasn't that lawyer anymorebecause I had just come out of
two Fairlink high level stints,one in a private company, one in
a public company, and I didn'twanna go back to just being a
litigator. Not that there'sanything wrong with litigation.
I love litigation. You justevolved. Right.
(17:10):
But I wanted to do kind of abroader level. And I have, you
know, fam family members in mybackground who were
entrepreneurial, when I was akid and owned a company, and I'd
always been kind of attracted tothat. So I started, my firm
first with two other dudes. Thatwas a bad scene. That only
(17:35):
lasted about ninety days.
Oh, wow.
Davina (17:39):
Oh, wow.
Juliet (17:39):
And then I went in with another partner who I worked
with in house, another guy. Thatwas that was actually a good
experience, but it was clear hedidn't really wanna grow. He
didn't really enjoy, a smallfirm. And so oddly enough, you
(17:59):
know, I I went on and started myown solo firm, which I've been
doing for a decade now, and hewent in house with or I'm sorry,
into a law firm. Actually, myfirst law firm.
Very strange. Oh, wow.
Davina (18:13):
It's so wow. Oh, wow. Connected.
Juliet (18:15):
But, yeah, I came out no clients. Started from scratch.
Yeah. Yeah. From the ground up.
Davina (18:22):
I know what that's like. And you have when I started my
firm, I I was one of thosepeople that came out of lawful
law school and started my firm,but I was also 42 at the time.
And I had a whole career. Likeyou, I have a journalism degree.
Unlike you, I did not go intojournalism because where I live,
there weren't a lot ofopportunities and I made the
mistake of getting married to myfirst husband and getting stuck
(18:44):
there.
So I, I went into marketinginstead, but I know what that's
like to have another career andthen to go into the law. And I
love what I love about yourstory is that I think so many of
us get locked into our head thatonce we start down a path, we
have to stay on the path. And Ilove that your story really
(19:05):
includes all of these publicsector, private sector, large
companies, small, you know, likein house Yep. And law firm. And
so you've had all these, andthat really makes for a really
interesting career, doesn't it?
Juliet (19:18):
It does. And I I think that would be the one thing I
would say to people, you know,who don't know a % what they
wanna be when they grow up. Istill struggle with that
sometimes. Right? But I thinkthe the issue is if you focus on
your why, right, that reallydrives you, and you keep
(19:42):
yourself open for opportunities,you will find your why on other
paths where you did not expectto be or go.
And I think that lawparticularly because it it
attracts, I would say, a moreconservative in terms of
changeability. Lawyers, not alllawyers, but, you know, we're
(20:05):
not, like, ones to super embracechange right away. And I think
one thing I've learned, probablyreally hard over the last
fifteen years is the onlyconstant, honestly, is change.
And so if you can getcomfortable with shifting sand
beneath your feet, you will knowand learn how to stand on it.
(20:28):
Right?
I think that will be even morecritical as the decades go on
now because the pace of changeis dizzying. And I think that it
is learning what skill set doyou have, what's your secret
sauce, what are you really goodat, and how do you apply that in
(20:50):
different areas. And I thinkwhen I look back, I go, gosh. It
it was a lot of fun to stretch.
Davina (20:59):
In the
Juliet (20:59):
moment, you know, you don't realize you're doing it
until after it's done. Right? Ican't use but I think it yeah. I
think it's that being open toexploring other things that
maybe don't fit on that in thatbox that you made for yourself.
(21:20):
I think that's where the realgrowth and really joy comes in.
Yeah.
Davina (21:27):
Yeah. I would you mentioned that, you know, you
think people who think sort ofconservatively come are
attracted to the law. And I Ithink there's also the training
aspect of it. We're trained tobe so cautious and to for our
clients, we have to knoweverything that could possibly
happen. We see liabilityeverywhere we look.
Even if you don't do torts,you're going out to a restaurant
(21:49):
going liability. If you see acrack and it's all like, there's
there's all that is part of itis our training as well. When it
comes to our own careers andparticularly when you become an
entrepreneur and you start andown a law firm, you really are
are saying I'm, I haven't I haveto also think like a CEO. I also
(22:10):
have to think like a businessowner. I also have to think like
an entrepreneur, and thatrequires a little more risk
taking.
That requires making decisionsmore quickly based on the best
information you have at thetime. Yep. And I think that's
that's powerful throughout acareer no matter what is just
saying and forgiving yourselffor mistakes in the past saying,
(22:30):
well, I've made the bestdecision I could make at that
time based on the information Ihad at the time. Because I think
every lawyer has workedsomeplace that they were like,
oh, yuck. Can't believe I everworked there or I dealt with
that or I had that businessrelationship or whatever.
And so that, that also, I think,you know, that embracing change
and also just saying thedecision I made was the right
(22:55):
decision for me at that time.Absolutely. You making those
decisions right for you, whetherthey you now judge them as right
or wrong. Well, you know, I madethe best decision I could at the
time. Tell me about what led youto opening your own firm.
Like, what was the moment whereyou said, this is what I'm gonna
do instead of
Juliet (23:16):
So I think that, I lacked the courage of my
convictions when I first decidedto, go into business with,
first, it it started to be firstof all, it was three other guys
and me. One of them was a longtime, very close, law school
(23:36):
classmate, and I lost afriendship over that first
thing. So, it it but I thinkwhat I was attracted to about
that is I knew I had it in me toto do it, but I liked having the
safety net that came with threeother lawyers who were coming
(23:57):
out of private practice, right,and me coming out of a public
practice. I thought, you know,that will give me some access to
referrals and clients. Wrong.
Wrong.
Davina (24:10):
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It did not.
Juliet (24:13):
Right? So, and then the second you know? And and so I it
took me till starting my ownfirm, which I did still very
trepidatiously because I waslike, can I make a go of this by
myself? But I had this idea ofwhat I wanted to see the firm
be, and it was just wasn't gonnawork the way we were doing it
(24:34):
then. I was doing all of theadministrative work and no
compensation work.
When have you heard that storybefore? Right? Awesome. So, I
decided, look, I'm already doingI mean, I I really think that I
came to the decision because itwas like, well, I'm already
doing all the administrativework. And if, you know, I can
(24:57):
outsource some of that, right,and focus on biz dev, I'm gonna
be really okay.
And I absolutely was, in shortorder, okay. And so it really
was, I think, a decision of, youknow, circumstance. I mean, I
(25:18):
didn't wanna go back into afirm, and I was like, well, it's
sink or swim. I mean, that'sreally how I felt. Right?
Davina (25:26):
So And you're touching on a very common, issue that I
see with women lawyers when theywanna go, particularly if
they've worked in a firm. Idon't see it as much with people
who sort of come out and starttheir firm. But people who've
worked in a firm, there's oftenthis feeling of I need partners
to make me feel. And it's mostoften, it is just a it's a, it's
(25:50):
a emotional thing. I needsomebody because emotionally I
need somebody to share the highsand lows and the burdens of this
and all of that.
And we don't look, I mean, forinstance, with you, you're in
there running the firm rightfrom the beginning. And that's
another thing too. I wonder whatit is about women that we often
just jump in and start doing allthe things. Right. And the guys
(26:14):
just kind of like expect it andgo along with it.
And don't, you know what it isthat's compelling for us to, you
know, do this. Is it control? Isit, we're just expected to be
the ones to do the admin stuffor what it, what is it you
think?
Juliet (26:33):
I think, well, in my particular instance, I think
what it was is I had, the personwho I was partnered with had a
very, you know, he was nevergonna be the one to do any
administrative work. It justwouldn't get done. And so for
me, I can't live like that. Ineed a more, you know,
(26:56):
regimented I need my, you know,I need the the books to be
clean. I need all I needed thatfor me.
Right? And so as a result, thatwas a void, and somebody had to
step in and certainly wasn'tthere.
Davina (27:11):
That's kind of interesting though because the
converse you could have had aconversation that says we need
this. Who's going to do it? Andand and it does in and we just
go, we're going to do itbecause, you know, and and I
think that's a common commonthing with women owners to do
that. So tell me where onceeverybody's out, it's you. What
(27:33):
what was the plan?
What did you do with regard to,business development?
Juliet (27:38):
Network might took us off is what I did. I mean, I,
you know, I Arizona has, or atthat time, ten years ago, had a
very good, kind of startupecosystem that was happening.
And, Arizona had long time beena boom and bust town for real
estate. Right? And so after thelast real estate crash, 02/2008,
(28:03):
you know, everyone kinda lookedaround and said, we cannot do
this.
I mean, we've done it everydecade since the nineteen
eighties. We have to stop this.We need to diversify the
economy, you know, of the area.And so I started by doing a lot
of, you know, startup kind ofwork. And, while I love start up
(28:27):
entrepreneurs, it just was not arecipe to get paid.
And so I probably figured thatout. I'm also fortunate that
land Arizona is the land ofsmall businesses. 90% of our
businesses have less than 20employees. So there's ample
amount of, you know, work outthere and entrepreneurs who need
help. And so what I did was justreally start joining groups,
(28:50):
start, you know, networking,and, really started, you know,
working the, circle of peoplethat I had, and building from
there.
And I was quite anxious aboutmaking the pivot into mergers
and acquisitions because it'snot an area that I loved
(29:15):
initially. When I was in housewith a company, we were a
franchise company, and so wealways we were not necessarily
doing the acquisitions. Theywere among franchisees, but we
were always involved inapprovals and things like that.
And I just it wasn't where Ispent the most amount of my
time. And so I was fearful, ofthat, but it's turned out to be
(29:42):
really once I got over and didthe first one, you know, it's an
area I love because there's somuch psychological work in it.
Tons. I mean, the the psychologyof people who are selling their
business is a really interestingplace to be. And Right. My, you
(30:03):
know, ability to be able to helppeople and educate in a
nonthreatening way has beenvery, very, you know, helpful
there to entrepreneurs who whoare get get by a lot of times
by, you know, faking it a littlebit. And I don't mean that, you
know, as a as pedantically.
(30:25):
I mean, that's what they'rethey're really good at. Right?
And so but what you don't know,you can't fake your ways through
a transaction. You will reallybe in deep doo doo if you do. So
you have to find a way to beable to work with entrepreneurs
and, make them so that they'renot their ankles aren't up when
(30:50):
you're talking to them aboutthings they don't understand or
don't know about.
Right?
Davina (30:55):
Yeah. Yeah. I can see that's a challenge. I could see
it. And also from an you know,you when you're getting to the
point where you're gonna sell abusiness or merge or something,
you have to have financialdocuments that back up what you
say.
Juliet (31:10):
Yes.
Davina (31:11):
And if you're dealing with a lot of, you know, family
owned businesses, people who'vebeen in business for years,
they've been doing it the waythat they do it. I imagine that
that really comes up. We'relike, this is where we have to
understand compliance and do thethings to be compliant. And
that's probably a real challengefor Yep. Work in that area of
practice.
Juliet (31:30):
I think anybody who works in the space of selling,
buying, and selling businesseswill tell you the number one
deficiency that we see acrossthe board. And I don't care if
you're a lawyer or a CPA or whatend of the pipeline you're in,
is people do not understandtheir financials, and they're
typically a mess. So and youhave these, you know,
(31:50):
conversations all the time. Ihad one last week with, you
know, a very nice husband andwife team. And, but they have
this idea of what their businessis worth, but it's not at all
tied to what the numbers are.
So so that's always kind of youknow, that's difficult
(32:10):
conversations that have to be,you know, that have to be had.
And that's a reason why so manybusinesses don't end up selling
and then close instead becauseyou, as an owner, either have to
adjust your expectations and tiethem to the real metrics of your
business, or you have to admit,hey. I don't have what it takes
(32:31):
to hit to sell an enterpriselevel business because I don't
have a structure in place. It'sdependent on me. You know,
there's a bunch of factors thatmake certain businesses risky,
and they won't sell.
Right? So,
Davina (32:46):
yeah. We're always, my husband and I are always looking
at businesses for sale when, youknow, we've kind of checked
things out, you know, and and itit it it is a challenge. It's
one of the things I'm alwaystelling women lawyers though is
that, it's it's one of my issueswith solo for life. I had so
(33:07):
many women friends that weresolo for thirty years, and then
they get to the point wherethey're like, oh, I need to
start thinking about the future,and I don't have enough safe or
invested. I haven't turned thisinto an asset that I can sell.
You know, there are a lot ofthings. And so that's why I'm
always encouraging women inparticular to start looking at
(33:31):
your law firm as building a lawfirm instead of staying solo for
so long for that reason.Because, when you go to, when
you, you get to the end, you'remost people just close-up shop.
That's really truly what lawyersoften do is just close-up shop
if you've been solo for years orthey might transition it to an
associate. And I have seen someassociates make bad deals
(33:53):
because they didn't understandwhat they were doing.
And suddenly, they're saddledwith all of these dead files
Juliet (34:01):
Right.
Davina (34:02):
That don't result in business and, you know, and and
all the burdens that go alongwith it. So, it it really is
critical to have to have asomebody who understands that
kind of thing. Yeah. So tell meabout
Juliet (34:14):
oh, sorry. I had to
Davina (34:15):
go ahead.
Juliet (34:15):
Stop on you. I I just had a thought about that. I
think for women who own theirown law firms, I mean, I would
say two two things. Right? Onething is that, not everybody
does wanna grow, and so you haveto know if you don't wanna grow
and why you don't wanna grow.
Right? You have to know thatyou're making a decision not
(34:35):
wanna to not wanna grow and whatthe consequences of that growing
is one one path, right, which iscompletely appropriate to take.
You wanna maximize your revenue.Right? But you don't necessarily
wanna have a big staff and hirea bunch of lawyers, and that's
not why you're doing it.
Right? And then the other pathis I think that women business,
(34:59):
women lawyers should look atacquiring other practice areas,
again, with help. Right? BecauseI think it's an underutilized,
and law firms are not, you know,they are not priced the same way
that a regular business wouldbe. Meaning, you don't take your
bottom line and multiplymultiply it towards a multiple
(35:22):
because there's just, you know,we have ethical reasons why
clients don't transfer, andthere's all kinds of things.
But there's ways to do that.Right? So if you think that you
wanna grow through acquisition,that is actually a strategy that
I think is underutilizedgenerally in law except among
the Am Jur group. Right? And sothat's really something, you
(35:45):
know, to look at as a womanlawyer.
And I I also wanna say that Ithink, for women business
owners, particularly lawyers,community is everything. You
have to have a community ofpeople around you. You need a
coach. You need somebody who'sgonna get you out of your own
(36:07):
head, because it's, you know,it's a lot. Right?
And Right. You know, running alaw firm, particularly with the
stress of the law part of it, isnot what anyone would really
sign up for if someone's if comeand buy this business. Right? So
so I think that for, you know,that that's that that is really
(36:32):
important to get clear on whyyou're doing what you're doing
and what your path is. And donot think you can go it alone
because you absolutely cannot.
I made that mistake for, youknow, a few years. It was
stupid. But, you know, you don'tknow what you don't know. And
also women are brain ofbootstrapping and, you know
Davina (36:52):
Yeah. And I think there's I think there's also
this feeling of everybody elsehas got it together but me. I
think we often feel that littleparanoia of, because I will have
people say to me, they'll hireme and we'll start our work and
should I hire a lawyer right nowor should I I wanna get my
systems all in place before Ihire a lawyer. And I'm like,
why? And they said, well, Idon't want them to see my mess.
(37:13):
And I'm like, you're hiring themto help you so you can have the
time to clean up the mess.Right? And there's this idea
that other people are going tobe judging us. If they look
behind the curtain, they'regonna judge what they see. And I
think high it's a high achievingwoman curse because high
achieving women and also, we'rein a competitive environment
(37:35):
with men, and that can be usedagainst us in a lot of ways if
people, you know, opposingcounsel perceive something about
us or whatever.
And especially if you're dealingwith nasty ones. Yeah. Men and
women. So I I I completelyunderstand where that where that
comes from. And I think despitethat, you gotta you gotta find
(37:58):
some people to trust, that youcan bring in and, to help you
because everybody I mean, I'vehad I've had plenty of coaches
because I they we all have blindspots.
Yep. We all have things thaterror we may even see them and
still not know how to overcomethem. Even if intellectually, we
(38:18):
know. Emotionally, we might notknow how to overcome a thing.
Right?
So I think it's very, veryimportant. I agree with you to
have community. And I just wrotean article for the women on law,
newsletter. And I was talkingabout my experience when I first
hung out my shingle. And one ofthe mistakes that I made was I
didn't have, I didn't haveenough mentors.
(38:43):
I didn't really cultivate thosementor relationships. I was
fortunate in that I had some whosort of adopted me, but I didn't
talk with them enough, you know,really pick their brains enough,
really spend enough time. Ididn't, cultivate more
relationships like that, bothfor the subject matter and for
(39:05):
business. And there was nobodyfor business for me back then. I
didn't have anybody that waslike a model for me for business
and how to run a business.
I just kind of thought, and Ithink this is common. I just
kind of thought I can do this. Ican run a business. And I didn't
realize till I was in the thickof it, like, what that meant. I
knew how to get because since Icame from a marketing
background, I knew how to getwork.
(39:26):
That was no problem. But thenhow do I run all the other
aspects of the business? Andcoaching really changed that for
me, really helped me learn that.So and so but it's not just
coaches. It can be mentors whojust Absolutely.
Subject matter mentors or justyour network in terms of
business too. When you talkabout that's when you worked
your butt off, going out andgetting that network of people.
(39:50):
And it takes some time. We don'talways get in with the right
people to begin with. There'sgonna be a lot of people who
don't understand what we do andrefer us leads that we don't
want or need or spent, you know,in business formation.
We get a lot of the, you know, alot of the ones who are just
starting a business. They've gotno money, you know, versus that
level that we're looking for. SoI I agree with you completely on
(40:12):
that. What do you what are someof the things that you First of
all, I wanna hear about yourbiggest sort of, challenge that
you had to overcome. And thenI'd like to hear about your what
you think is that you've donereally, really well.
Juliet (40:27):
So I would say professionally, my biggest
challenge, was a lawsuit. Andlawyers don't talk about
lawsuits. Wow. They happen to alot of people. Yeah.
I was particularly
Davina (40:41):
They happen to a lot of lawyers.
Juliet (40:43):
They do. And, mine was particularly cloying, because it
was, really not based onanything that I did or didn't
do. So, and it went on for sixyears. It just recently ended,
(41:03):
as we were preparing for trial.I think what it has been my
biggest point of heartburn andalso my biggest teacher because
I had to learn how to run aroundit.
And I'll never forget one of myyou know, one of the best pieces
of advice I got was, from, thelawyer that helped me with some
(41:29):
stuff at the beginning prior to,you know, to all this going, you
know, the way it went was hesaid, you're gonna, you're gonna
put this in a box and you'regonna put the box on the shelf.
And you're only gonna take thebox down and look at it when
there's something you have todo. And then you're gonna put it
back, lid back on.
Davina (41:49):
That's wonderful.
Juliet (41:50):
I have thought I thought of that over six years, three
million times when I wanted tospin out of control.
Davina (41:56):
Yeah. Because it would just eat at you. I imagine. It
just eat away at you if you letit.
Juliet (42:00):
It's very and like I said, this one was particularly
if you let your head spin intosomeone fair or what the hell,
You know? At the end of the day,I did I was able to put it in a
box up on a shelf, only take itdown when I need to. I got some
(42:22):
good, you know, expertise ontestifying out of the deal. And,
I think that the fact that Icould do that and carry on with
my life and my business and havesome of my best years despite
that, I if you had told me thatten years ago, I would have
(42:44):
laughed in your face. But, youknow And if they told you that
Davina (42:48):
you would have a six year law, like, at the
beginning, you would have beenlike, oh my god. I can't do
this. And So crazy. It'sincredible. It's interesting
because you also got theperspective of a client.
Right. Right? Yep. It goesthrough such a thing. I I was
involved in a lawsuit with, saleof a business Yeah.
(43:08):
Years ago. And, definitelymistakes. I made the I didn't
hire the best lawyer for it. Butfortunately, we were able to
resolve it pretty quickly, butour biggest mistake is we didn't
vet the people buying thebusiness. Yeah.
I understand. You know, stuffstuff so we should have probably
hired more help at the beginningwhen we were selling
(43:28):
representation. But you learnyou learn things. And I think a
lot of lawyers, that's somethingthat we don't talk about in in
the law of malpractice lawsuits.We don't talk about grievances.
I mean, I've I've worked withsome of the best lawyers and had
them as clients and they've beengrieved. And it's devastating
when they're grieved. And mostof the times, it they prevailed
(43:50):
because there's nothing to it.Right. But it those kinds of
things.
I think that's one of thescariest things to me about
being a lawyer. I used to say inthe beginning, I was like, it's
like the only career where theytake away your whole career
Right. If you screw up. If youmake the wrong mistake, they'll
take it they'll take away yourbar license, you know. But it
you know, they don't do that ifyou own a restaurant or
(44:11):
whatever.
Juliet (44:12):
Right? Exactly.
Davina (44:13):
And so, well, so that was your biggest challenge, and
that's some great advice forpeople to be able to car
compartmentalize like that ishuge. And and probably the only
way you were able to emotionallysort of survive. Yep.
Juliet (44:25):
Yeah. So Learn some hard lessons about insurance through
that. I mean, there were a lotof learning lessons. Right?
Yeah.
I would say my biggest, I wouldsay my biggest success, is, not
necessarily directly tied to thebusiness. It's where I've gone
personally in the last twelveyears. I've had some incredibly
(44:48):
challenging personal times witha lot of death, illness, and,
you know, to family members and,really, really rough rough go.
And I think that, for me, beingable to continue to swim in very
(45:10):
choppy water is, really thething I'm the most proud of and
have done the work as I wasgoing through it to really
excise a lot of mental barriersthat I had that I didn't know I
had. And there's a huge amountof resilience that I've built,
(45:34):
you know, and that has shownitself in my business as an and
as I'm ready to pivot again alittle bit, do a little bit more
coaching and training and alittle bit more, you know,
writing and speaking and all ofthose kinds of things.
I think I wouldn't necessarilyhave been able to do that if I
was the same person I was twelveyears ago. So, I think that,
(46:01):
embracing things that I'm scaredof I mean, I definitely was
nervous about m and a. And, youknow, if I had not embraced that
fear and kind of push throughit, I would not have had the
gift of all of the transactionsI've done, you know, after that.
(46:22):
Right? Which have given me a lotof richness in terms of having
personal, really have, having,you know, personal, you know,
good job.
Right? I I get that the serve isit the service aspect of helping
people sell their businesses hasreally been a gift for me. And,
(46:46):
you know, at its core, that'salways what I wanted to do is
serve. My service has justlooked differently at different
times of my life. Right?
But it's, if I had not gonethrough that fear and really
said I can learn what it takesto do that, I would not be where
(47:06):
I am. And it isn't easy. Right?I mean, you've gotta do the you
have to do the work. And, youknow, you backslide.
Right? I mean, I was I wastalking to someone a couple of
weeks ago. I was like, wait aminute. You mean it isn't a
destination?
Davina (47:22):
It's like you leave your no, you're gonna get to a point
Juliet (47:26):
and then you're just gonna stop and
Davina (47:27):
it's gonna all be good. That is not how life works.
There's always a challenge.There's always something facing
us that that that revealsanother part of ourselves that
we maybe don't wanna look at or
Juliet (47:38):
that
Davina (47:38):
we don't wanna talk about or didn't even know
existed. So yeah. Yeah. That istrue. And I do think some of
this is it's the beauty of,aging too.
It's the beauty of gettingolder, and then you start to see
a lifetime's career and a bodyof work. And looking back at
that and saying, I'm I'm proud.It wasn't where I thought I was
gonna go or what I thought itwould look like, but, wow, I'm
(47:59):
very proud of that and what I'veaccomplished. And for me, I
think it I feel a a stronger andmore capable just because of
years of the experiences I'vehad and things I've had to learn
and, you know, that I neverthought I would have to learn
and all of that. And then youjust feel like, okay.
(48:20):
Well, I'm, you know, I'm the$6,000,000 woman now or
whatever. Right? And thensomething else challenges that,
but nonetheless, there are thoseand I think that you mentioned
earlier about joy and findingjoy in our lives. Even as you're
going through this, you'reyou're finding joyful
(48:41):
experiences in your life even asyou're kind of being attacked
and feel like you're having tofight. There's things there that
felt joyful for you.
So give me an example of, like,some of those things.
Juliet (48:53):
So it's funny because I have such a complicated
relationship with the word joybecause I used to have, like, a,
every year, I would set a, youknow, a phrase that I would
meditate on that would come tome for the for the following
year. And I, think it was eitherin one one of these particularly
(49:14):
bad years, and it might havebeen right before the pandemic I
had set. The message I hadgotten was joy and ease, and
then the year proceeded to benothing about joy and nothing
about ease. But now that I lookback, I think that was the
point. Right?
It's finding I I really do thinkthat was the point. Finding joy
(49:37):
and ease is of this thing. It'sinternal. You're not gonna find
it external. And it's it's beingable to see that when you're in
the darkest hours.
Right? That is where where youcan then look back and say, you
(49:58):
know, wow. There was joy, and Inow know, you know, I will now
know what ease feels likebecause maybe I didn't know, and
I had to go through what uneaseor disease felt like for a long
time before I can see it. So forme, joy, I'm really focusing on
(50:20):
the joy in the little things,particularly because I feel
right now we're in a verychaotic period of the world.
Mhmm.
Chaotic. And I think thatwhatever your ideas are, right,
you cannot help if you're athinking people person to feel
(50:40):
the churn. The churn. The churn.The churn.
Right?
Davina (50:43):
Right.
Juliet (50:43):
So I think, you know, for me, it's remembering to look
at the sunrise, look at thesunset to, you know, be grateful
for, you know, a coffee or Imean, I have gone really micro
because I think we've beenfooled, you know, into thinking
(51:06):
joy is big. Right?
Davina (51:07):
Right.
Juliet (51:08):
I can't hear you. Those big moments when you have a
baby, when you when you, youknow, when you get married. And,
yes, those are all wonderful,but that is not day to day. And
if you expect that, you're gonnabe sorely disappointed because
that is not what the daily tasksof living look like.
Davina (51:25):
Yeah.
Juliet (51:26):
Right? I agree with you. I agree with you.
Davina (51:28):
And that's something, been having that discussion with
my husband lately because we're,you know, talking about various
things going on in the world andthings going on with family and
all sorts of things. And I and Isaid, you know, and he gets into
this and I'm like, we have tostop and look where we are or
what we have, what today isgonna look like, what because
really, we're so blessed. We'reso fortunate. We're so, you
(51:51):
know, and and it can be hardwhen you're seeing the
suffering, you know, going onaround you or whatever. But the
trigger word for me is fun.
That's a fun I can't people saymy mother always says, did you
have fun? What did you do tohave fun this week? And I'm
like, I literally work. Right?That's my fun.
(52:12):
I work. I talk to people. Iwork. Right. And so it's
something that she doesn'tunderstand.
Yeah. Fun is a thing that it'salways been that way with me
with people. We're gonna go dosomething like ride a roller
coaster. Well, to me, that's notfun. Right?
So my idea of fun and if you'rean introverted person or a
cerebral person or whatever,your idea of fun is different
(52:34):
from others. So when I hear theword fun, I'm like, can we
choose a different word? Whatdoes that look like? Did I hear
you?
Juliet (52:41):
I agree with you on that. Fun. That's a hard word.
Also, hobby. That's the worstword for me.
Davina (52:46):
Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Hobbies. One of my hobbies are
my hobbies are starting anotherbusiness.
My hobbies are talking withpeople about business. Right. My
hobbies are going to the gym,which, you know, how sad is
that? But that is my hobby isgoing to
Juliet (52:59):
the gym. Actually a
Davina (53:00):
good hobby. Yeah. It's a good hobby. I've
Juliet (53:02):
yes. Well wish I had that hobby. I'm always working
on that hobby, and it alwaysfeels more like a chore than a
hobby. But, oh,
Davina (53:09):
I I had to do a lot of work to change my mindset around
that because for years I mean, Igrew up with two sisters, and we
were never encouraged to playsports or do anything like that.
And, I I've never, I've alwaysbeen a head head, hard person
and body last. And so over theyears, I happen to be married to
somebody who is athletic andhe's a fitness coach through the
(53:33):
years. We owned a gym. I mean,so I have that person who is,
you know, always encouraged me.
And I look at it now, especiallyin our age and I go, I'm so
grateful that I'm with somebodywho promotes my health and
well-being because it'ssomething, you know, years ago,
I didn't consider it that. I wasalways about aesthetics. Yeah.
So it's very interesting how youchange as you get a little bit
(53:54):
older about that. Alright.
So Yep. Go ahead. Oh, no. Yougo. I was gonna say we need to
end.
I probably could talk to youinto the next hour, but let's go
ahead and end. And why don't youtell us where we can get in
touch with you and find out moreabout the work you're doing
there in Arizona?
Juliet (54:09):
So you can, go to the website, which is
frameworklegal.com. And I ampersonally on LinkedIn at
Juliette Peters. I frameworklegal also is on LinkedIn and
Facebook and Instagram. You canfind me, everywhere pretty much,
but TikTok. Not yet on TikTok.
Davina (54:29):
So same. Alright, Juliet. Thank you so much for
being here. I really enjoyed ourconversation.
Juliet (54:35):
This was awesome. Thank you.
Intro (54:37):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What if
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers? Ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more. Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Davina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove.
Davina is founder and CEO ofWealthy Woman Lawyer, and her
goal is to give you theinformation you need to scale
your law firm business from 6 to7 figures in gross annual
revenue so you can fully fundand still have time to enjoy the
(00:45):
lifestyle of your dreams. Now,here's Divina.
Davina (00:51):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy
Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm yourhost, Divina Frederick. And my
guest today is Juliette Peters.Juliette started framework legal
in 02/2014 with the mission ofbuilding a client center
business law firm that wouldwork in lockstep with its
clients, providing them with thestrategy solutions and
confidence they needed to scaletheir businesses. Building a
(01:14):
business that scales can bedifficult and Juliet understands
the challenges of growing abusiness because she runs one
herself.
Framework legal's process startswith open dialogue. They invest
in understanding your theirclients' unique teams and goals
and guide them in creating theright vehicle for success. They
also work to minimize risk totheir clients' businesses and
(01:36):
maximize benefits for bothroutine and transformative
transactions. Juliet's firm isbased in Scottsdale, Arizona,
where they serve businessclients throughout the state.
Hi, Juliette, and welcome.
I'm so glad to have you herefrom Phoenix, Arizona. I'm so
grateful to be here. Good. Good.So I have, introduced you, but
(01:59):
I'd like to hear a little bitmore from you.
Let's start with, just your lawfirm and the clients you serve
and the type of services youprovide for them.
Juliet (02:10):
So, I am a boutique transactional firm, and, the
name of the firm is FrameworkLegal, and I focus mostly on
kind of two verticals. One isoutside or fractional general
counsel work, and that'severything from helping, you
know, companies do all of theircontracts, derisk, light
(02:32):
employment, anything that abusiness owner might face day to
day. And, typically, those arebusinesses that, you know,
exceed about a million dollarsin revenue. They're not big
enough that they have an inside,counsel. Right?
So they have frequent needs, butthey don't have somebody in
(02:54):
house. And then the second partof the business is really
focused on business transitions.And so that's mergers and
acquisitions, that is internalsales, that might be identifying
and finding some kind ofinternal successor or whether or
not someone might go down theESOP road. So those are kind of
(03:18):
the the, you know, areas that Iprobably focus the most of my
attention on. Sometimes I helpexecutives when they have
executive employment agreements,and those come with, any kind of
an option or something likethat.
I have a group of employmentattorneys I work with who are
uncomfortable diligencing theinternal investment thing, but I
(03:40):
would say that's a pretty smallpart of the practice.
Davina (03:43):
Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about the verticals that you
serve. What industries do youtend to work with?
Juliet (03:49):
So I am pretty much industry agnostic. I really
don't have, you know, anyindustries that I serve more
than any others. I would say theonly thing I really don't do is
deep doctor medical practices.So I have you know, there are a
couple of people in Phoenix whoreally do that work. And, so I
(04:12):
but I do have home health careproviders, dentists, you know,
and those sort of ancillarypractice components, just not
doctors themselves.
But I have people in allindustries, you know, software
as a service, all kinds ofprofessional service providers.
In Arizona, we have, specialtylawyer things called alternative
(04:35):
business structures or ABSs,which allow non lawyers to have
ownership interests. So in inlaw firms, and so I do some of
that.
Davina (04:45):
Different from most other states.
Juliet (04:48):
Hugely different. There's only a handful of states
doing it, and, we have a hundredI I was just looking, like, we
have a hundred and seven, lawbusinesses that have nonlawyer
ownership. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.Yeah.
It's really interesting.
Davina (05:05):
Yeah. It is. I think I think that's something that,
lawyers are always concernedabout when they when they see
that. But I can see wherethere's a there's a market for
it. Certainly, there are peoplewho might be, business investors
or Yeah.
People even people who aremarried to lawyers who own the
(05:27):
firm or something might havesome interest or whatever that
they wanna protect. It's it'sit's a fascinating area, I'm
sure. And you guys are probablyforging the path a little bit
Yes.
Juliet (05:37):
In that. Absolutely. Yeah. Washington kinda started.
They did some experimentation,then Arizona, and and and Utah
has what's called a sandbox.
Right? So they allow some ofthat to go on, but Arizona is
really I mean, we took a a rule,away, that, you know, since you
(05:58):
have lawyers who listen to yourpodcast, the rule that would
allow us to fee share is gone.So we can share fees with non
lawyers and other lawyers do feesplits. And then we have this
whole ABS thing. And then inaddition to that, we have what
are called paraprofessionals whoare working in, you know,
(06:21):
criminal family, and they workunder the supervision of a
lawyer, but it's essentially aparalegal who is doing the heavy
lifting and will even appear incourt.
So it's really kind ofinteresting. And that the whole
purpose of this was to kindaopen the playing field for
access to justice. Whether ornot that's actually doing that,
(06:42):
I'm not exactly sure yet becausea lot of the ABSs are not in the
access to justice universe. So
Davina (06:51):
Right. Right. Exactly. What what yeah. What is access
to justice?
What does that include? Right?So Right. What was there, and
and we're we're gonna come backbecause Yeah. I don't wanna
spend too long on this, but Ijust I'm curious now.
Was there a a perceived shortageof lawyers, is kind of what led
to this? Well, I mean,
Juliet (07:11):
it so nationwide, the statistic isn't there's a
perceived shortage of lawyers.Right? And we definitely don't
have a shortage of lawyer,lawyers in Arizona. What it is
is a, shortage, an actualshortage in cost effective
lawyers for people in areas likelandlord tenant, certain
(07:32):
criminal cases, and family law.Right?
People end up having to go italone because they can't afford
a lawyer. Right? And so this wassupposed to be one of the ways
that you would deal with that,kind of a gap, if you will,
between legal services thatreally are needed in the
community, and the cost of legalservices generally. What's
(07:57):
happened, at least from where Isit is, it's a lot of, it's a
lot of class action. It's a lotof, you know, personal injury.
It's those things where therealready are players that are
nonlawyers. You know, there'smarketing companies and all of
(08:17):
this. So that's kind of I wouldsay, based on what I just saw,
that's probably the vastmajority of these. Now there are
some that are really interestinglike lawyers. This has been a
godsend for lawyers who are bothCPAs, right, and lawyers because
they were having to run twodifferent businesses.
(08:38):
Right? And so this allows themto have everything they do, CPA
services and law services underone platform. And I just noticed
also KPMG was just approved. Soit's really gonna change the
practice. And the bigger playerslike KPMG or, you know, there
were a number of, what used tobe called alternative legal
(09:00):
service providers or all sets,who now have, firms in Arizona.
And their goal is to drive alltheir legal work through Arizona
because then that opens up or atleast they believe it opens up
50 state practice. So it's it'sinteresting. It's a fascinating
area. So
Davina (09:18):
Yeah. And I think there's gonna be a lot of,
unintended consequences that maycome out of that Yeah. As a
result of that. Because, youknow, they could have limited if
the access to justice was theycould have said in these areas
of practice.
Juliet (09:31):
Yeah. I know. Yeah.
Davina (09:32):
As a lawyer and a business owner, how are you
finding it, to have this kind ofcompetition in your state?
Juliet (09:41):
I haven't really felt it personally yet. I think there
are a lot of things that arechanging the way we practice
law. Right? So, AI is a hugeone. Right?
And what that is gonna looklike, how that will shake out,
it's fundamentally going todepress the price of what I
would call documents. Right? Ido believe that, you know, I've
(10:08):
always been one who isinterested in new things and new
delivery methods. I do thinkthat there is some upside to all
of these. And, you know, I thinkfor creative lawyers, we were
always kind of hemmed in by therules.
And I don't mean, you know, justbreaking the rules to break
them. I mean, you know, if youwanted to take an interest in a
(10:32):
company instead of get paid, youknow, you have to do all of
these disclosures very statespecific. Right? Mhmm. But I
think that, it hasn't I haven'tseen it yet as a negative.
I don't think up until thispoint, most of these service
providers have not gotten a lotof traction. It'll be
(10:53):
interesting to see what happenswith a KPMG level, somebody
coming in who really, you know,is already heavily involved in a
professional services across theboard, what that begins to look
like. But I think at lawyers, wealways kinda have to be
sensitive to how the market ischanging, and the market is
(11:13):
changing rapidly. It's changingfor those of us who have been in
practice for a while, and it'sit's also on the other end
changing for people who arecoming out of law school and
simply don't have the training,or access to the training
resources that they really needto become practitioners. That
was always something that wasleft to firms, and further to
(11:38):
stop hiring at the level theywere hiring.
And even when they do, thepressure for their associates to
perform quickly and be bringingmoney in the door sort of has,
you know, really impactedtraining programs and the day to
day way that I learned, forexample, in a large firm to be a
(11:58):
lawyer. Right? Right. Right.It's different.
And that the great thing is I'ma huge proponent of starting
your own practice. I believe forwomen particularly, that is the
key to the kingdom. Having saidthat, I think that it's I see a
lot of younger lawyers who justdon't have the practice skill
(12:20):
set because that wasn'tdeveloped in them. Yeah.
Davina (12:25):
Yeah. Well, I think there's a, there's this issue of
young lawyers too. I don'treally know that all big firms
train young lawyers. I think alot of them put them in the
backroom, throw them meat, andsay, bill, bill, bill, bill,
bill.
Juliet (12:42):
Yep.
Davina (12:42):
And I think a lot of young lawyers are going out and
immediately starting theirpractice because they might try
to work someplace, and they getshocked at what it means to be a
lawyer. And the requirementsbeing lawyer, it's not an
hourly. I get to leave at 05:00.I'm hearing a lot of stories
about this. People saying I'mhiring a baby lawyer.
They're coming in and they'recrying because they've never
(13:04):
worked before and they have nosoft skills and they don't
understand the work ethic or therequirement of the job or
whatever. And they're wanting toleave early to go to the gym if
they work one day late. Andthese are true actual, you know,
Juliet (13:17):
stories that people told me.
Davina (13:19):
And so then you have these young lawyers who are
saying, well, I'm gonna go startmy own law firm. And because I
want work life balance, and Iand I think there's a, I'm a
huge advocate of work lifebalance for lawyers, but I my
particular method is aroundbuilding a firm and then putting
(13:39):
yourself in that position asopposed to being the worker in
the firm. Right? Building yourown firm. But I also think there
is a, you know, there is adanger of people, you know, not
being the best lawyers when theystart, and not having anybody
there as a safeguard of them.
But on the flip side, I've seenpeople work at a firm for years
(14:00):
and then go out and try to starttheir own, and they literally
don't know how to they know howto do one thing that they
learned at that firm. So I don'tthink there's a broad spectrum
of training that a lot of firmsprovide anyway. It's a gap. And
I think ultimately, lawyers areresponsible for getting as it
has always been, we'reresponsible for getting our own
training Yes. And making surethat we are competent to
(14:22):
practice in our area, you know,and that may require a little
extra homework, a little extrawork to do it, you know.
Yes. And I wanna go back andtell your story because so
people understand yourframework, where you come from.
So Right. Let's talk about howyou started your legal career.
Juliet (14:38):
So law is a second career for me, not even my first
career. I went to uni thecollege just thinking that I was
going to, take a really greatpre, law set of courses, which
was journalism. Right? Mhmm. Andthen I fell in love with
journalism, and I thought tomyself, well, if I'm gonna do
(15:00):
that, I have to do that when I'myoung, and I can move around a
lot, and I don't have, you know,a lot of things tying me down.
I can get to law school, youknow, when I'm a little bit
older. And that's what I did. Iworked for a decade as a working
journalist, and then in my midthirties, I went back to law
school. And, you know, I wouldsay for me, a couple of things
(15:23):
happened. Number one, I youcould have the only thing I was
ever around as a lawyer wasprosecutors.
Right? And so I expected I wasgoing to become a prosecutor.
That is what I went in for.Right? And nobody was more
shocked than I was that I endedup, you know, in a civil
litigation firm doing civillitigation.
(15:45):
Right? And I just really lovedthe business thing. And so I
litigated for, around six years.I had an opportunity to go into,
the, attorney general's officein Arizona doing a hybrid, you
(16:06):
know, journalism and, andspecial counsel role. So I did
that, and then I worked in housein a company, for a big
franchise company.
And then I went back into theattorney general's office for a
cleanup. They had, their largestdivision, which was what served
(16:27):
child and family protection, inArizona, had a bar complaint
because of the way they werewriting their petitions. And so
I had a real cleanup and that,you know, I supervised, like,
380 people there. Oh, wow. Andso when I was finishing up there
because the AG was turned out, Iknew that I could go back into a
(16:49):
firm, but I was gonna have topick litigation or
transactional.
And I wasn't that lawyer anymorebecause I had just come out of
two Fairlink high level stints,one in a private company, one in
a public company, and I didn'twanna go back to just being a
litigator. Not that there'sanything wrong with litigation.
I love litigation. You justevolved. Right.
(17:10):
But I wanted to do kind of abroader level. And I have, you
know, fam family members in mybackground who were
entrepreneurial, when I was akid and owned a company, and I'd
always been kind of attracted tothat. So I started, my firm
first with two other dudes. Thatwas a bad scene. That only
(17:35):
lasted about ninety days.
Oh, wow.
Davina (17:39):
Oh, wow.
Juliet (17:39):
And then I went in with another partner who I worked
with in house, another guy. Thatwas that was actually a good
experience, but it was clear hedidn't really wanna grow. He
didn't really enjoy, a smallfirm. And so oddly enough, you
(17:59):
know, I I went on and started myown solo firm, which I've been
doing for a decade now, and hewent in house with or I'm sorry,
into a law firm. Actually, myfirst law firm.
Very strange. Oh, wow.
Davina (18:13):
It's so wow. Oh, wow. Connected.
Juliet (18:15):
But, yeah, I came out no clients. Started from scratch.
Yeah. Yeah. From the ground up.
Davina (18:22):
I know what that's like. And you have when I started my
firm, I I was one of thosepeople that came out of lawful
law school and started my firm,but I was also 42 at the time.
And I had a whole career. Likeyou, I have a journalism degree.
Unlike you, I did not go intojournalism because where I live,
there weren't a lot ofopportunities and I made the
mistake of getting married to myfirst husband and getting stuck
(18:44):
there.
So I, I went into marketinginstead, but I know what that's
like to have another career andthen to go into the law. And I
love what I love about yourstory is that I think so many of
us get locked into our head thatonce we start down a path, we
have to stay on the path. And Ilove that your story really
(19:05):
includes all of these publicsector, private sector, large
companies, small, you know, likein house Yep. And law firm. And
so you've had all these, andthat really makes for a really
interesting career, doesn't it?
Juliet (19:18):
It does. And I I think that would be the one thing I
would say to people, you know,who don't know a % what they
wanna be when they grow up. Istill struggle with that
sometimes. Right? But I thinkthe the issue is if you focus on
your why, right, that reallydrives you, and you keep
(19:42):
yourself open for opportunities,you will find your why on other
paths where you did not expectto be or go.
And I think that lawparticularly because it it
attracts, I would say, a moreconservative in terms of
changeability. Lawyers, not alllawyers, but, you know, we're
(20:05):
not, like, ones to super embracechange right away. And I think
one thing I've learned, probablyreally hard over the last
fifteen years is the onlyconstant, honestly, is change.
And so if you can getcomfortable with shifting sand
beneath your feet, you will knowand learn how to stand on it.
(20:28):
Right?
I think that will be even morecritical as the decades go on
now because the pace of changeis dizzying. And I think that it
is learning what skill set doyou have, what's your secret
sauce, what are you really goodat, and how do you apply that in
(20:50):
different areas. And I thinkwhen I look back, I go, gosh. It
it was a lot of fun to stretch.
Davina (20:59):
In the
Juliet (20:59):
moment, you know, you don't realize you're doing it
until after it's done. Right? Ican't use but I think it yeah. I
think it's that being open toexploring other things that
maybe don't fit on that in thatbox that you made for yourself.
(21:20):
I think that's where the realgrowth and really joy comes in.
Yeah.
Davina (21:27):
Yeah. I would you mentioned that, you know, you
think people who think sort ofconservatively come are
attracted to the law. And I Ithink there's also the training
aspect of it. We're trained tobe so cautious and to for our
clients, we have to knoweverything that could possibly
happen. We see liabilityeverywhere we look.
Even if you don't do torts,you're going out to a restaurant
(21:49):
going liability. If you see acrack and it's all like, there's
there's all that is part of itis our training as well. When it
comes to our own careers andparticularly when you become an
entrepreneur and you start andown a law firm, you really are
are saying I'm, I haven't I haveto also think like a CEO. I also
(22:10):
have to think like a businessowner. I also have to think like
an entrepreneur, and thatrequires a little more risk
taking.
That requires making decisionsmore quickly based on the best
information you have at thetime. Yep. And I think that's
that's powerful throughout acareer no matter what is just
saying and forgiving yourselffor mistakes in the past saying,
(22:30):
well, I've made the bestdecision I could make at that
time based on the information Ihad at the time. Because I think
every lawyer has workedsomeplace that they were like,
oh, yuck. Can't believe I everworked there or I dealt with
that or I had that businessrelationship or whatever.
And so that, that also, I think,you know, that embracing change
and also just saying thedecision I made was the right
(22:55):
decision for me at that time.Absolutely. You making those
decisions right for you, whetherthey you now judge them as right
or wrong. Well, you know, I madethe best decision I could at the
time. Tell me about what led youto opening your own firm.
Like, what was the moment whereyou said, this is what I'm gonna
do instead of
Juliet (23:16):
So I think that, I lacked the courage of my
convictions when I first decidedto, go into business with,
first, it it started to be firstof all, it was three other guys
and me. One of them was a longtime, very close, law school
(23:36):
classmate, and I lost afriendship over that first
thing. So, it it but I thinkwhat I was attracted to about
that is I knew I had it in me toto do it, but I liked having the
safety net that came with threeother lawyers who were coming
(23:57):
out of private practice, right,and me coming out of a public
practice. I thought, you know,that will give me some access to
referrals and clients. Wrong.
Wrong.
Davina (24:10):
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It did not.
Juliet (24:13):
Right? So, and then the second you know? And and so I it
took me till starting my ownfirm, which I did still very
trepidatiously because I waslike, can I make a go of this by
myself? But I had this idea ofwhat I wanted to see the firm
be, and it was just wasn't gonnawork the way we were doing it
(24:34):
then. I was doing all of theadministrative work and no
compensation work.
When have you heard that storybefore? Right? Awesome. So, I
decided, look, I'm already doingI mean, I I really think that I
came to the decision because itwas like, well, I'm already
doing all the administrativework. And if, you know, I can
(24:57):
outsource some of that, right,and focus on biz dev, I'm gonna
be really okay.
And I absolutely was, in shortorder, okay. And so it really
was, I think, a decision of, youknow, circumstance. I mean, I
(25:18):
didn't wanna go back into afirm, and I was like, well, it's
sink or swim. I mean, that'sreally how I felt. Right?
Davina (25:26):
So And you're touching on a very common, issue that I
see with women lawyers when theywanna go, particularly if
they've worked in a firm. Idon't see it as much with people
who sort of come out and starttheir firm. But people who've
worked in a firm, there's oftenthis feeling of I need partners
to make me feel. And it's mostoften, it is just a it's a, it's
(25:50):
a emotional thing. I needsomebody because emotionally I
need somebody to share the highsand lows and the burdens of this
and all of that.
And we don't look, I mean, forinstance, with you, you're in
there running the firm rightfrom the beginning. And that's
another thing too. I wonder whatit is about women that we often
just jump in and start doing allthe things. Right. And the guys
(26:14):
just kind of like expect it andgo along with it.
And don't, you know what it isthat's compelling for us to, you
know, do this. Is it control? Isit, we're just expected to be
the ones to do the admin stuffor what it, what is it you
think?
Juliet (26:33):
I think, well, in my particular instance, I think
what it was is I had, the personwho I was partnered with had a
very, you know, he was nevergonna be the one to do any
administrative work. It justwouldn't get done. And so for
me, I can't live like that. Ineed a more, you know,
(26:56):
regimented I need my, you know,I need the the books to be
clean. I need all I needed thatfor me.
Right? And so as a result, thatwas a void, and somebody had to
step in and certainly wasn'tthere.
Davina (27:11):
That's kind of interesting though because the
converse you could have had aconversation that says we need
this. Who's going to do it? Andand and it does in and we just
go, we're going to do itbecause, you know, and and I
think that's a common commonthing with women owners to do
that. So tell me where onceeverybody's out, it's you. What
(27:33):
what was the plan?
What did you do with regard to,business development?
Juliet (27:38):
Network might took us off is what I did. I mean, I,
you know, I Arizona has, or atthat time, ten years ago, had a
very good, kind of startupecosystem that was happening.
And, Arizona had long time beena boom and bust town for real
estate. Right? And so after thelast real estate crash, 02/2008,
(28:03):
you know, everyone kinda lookedaround and said, we cannot do
this.
I mean, we've done it everydecade since the nineteen
eighties. We have to stop this.We need to diversify the
economy, you know, of the area.And so I started by doing a lot
of, you know, startup kind ofwork. And, while I love start up
(28:27):
entrepreneurs, it just was not arecipe to get paid.
And so I probably figured thatout. I'm also fortunate that
land Arizona is the land ofsmall businesses. 90% of our
businesses have less than 20employees. So there's ample
amount of, you know, work outthere and entrepreneurs who need
help. And so what I did was justreally start joining groups,
(28:50):
start, you know, networking,and, really started, you know,
working the, circle of peoplethat I had, and building from
there.
And I was quite anxious aboutmaking the pivot into mergers
and acquisitions because it'snot an area that I loved
(29:15):
initially. When I was in housewith a company, we were a
franchise company, and so wealways we were not necessarily
doing the acquisitions. Theywere among franchisees, but we
were always involved inapprovals and things like that.
And I just it wasn't where Ispent the most amount of my
time. And so I was fearful, ofthat, but it's turned out to be
(29:42):
really once I got over and didthe first one, you know, it's an
area I love because there's somuch psychological work in it.
Tons. I mean, the the psychologyof people who are selling their
business is a really interestingplace to be. And Right. My, you
(30:03):
know, ability to be able to helppeople and educate in a
nonthreatening way has beenvery, very, you know, helpful
there to entrepreneurs who whoare get get by a lot of times
by, you know, faking it a littlebit. And I don't mean that, you
know, as a as pedantically.
(30:25):
I mean, that's what they'rethey're really good at. Right?
And so but what you don't know,you can't fake your ways through
a transaction. You will reallybe in deep doo doo if you do. So
you have to find a way to beable to work with entrepreneurs
and, make them so that they'renot their ankles aren't up when
(30:50):
you're talking to them aboutthings they don't understand or
don't know about.
Right?
Davina (30:55):
Yeah. Yeah. I can see that's a challenge. I could see
it. And also from an you know,you when you're getting to the
point where you're gonna sell abusiness or merge or something,
you have to have financialdocuments that back up what you
say.
Juliet (31:10):
Yes.
Davina (31:11):
And if you're dealing with a lot of, you know, family
owned businesses, people who'vebeen in business for years,
they've been doing it the waythat they do it. I imagine that
that really comes up. We'relike, this is where we have to
understand compliance and do thethings to be compliant. And
that's probably a real challengefor Yep. Work in that area of
practice.
Juliet (31:30):
I think anybody who works in the space of selling,
buying, and selling businesseswill tell you the number one
deficiency that we see acrossthe board. And I don't care if
you're a lawyer or a CPA or whatend of the pipeline you're in,
is people do not understandtheir financials, and they're
typically a mess. So and youhave these, you know,
(31:50):
conversations all the time. Ihad one last week with, you
know, a very nice husband andwife team. And, but they have
this idea of what their businessis worth, but it's not at all
tied to what the numbers are.
So so that's always kind of youknow, that's difficult
(32:10):
conversations that have to be,you know, that have to be had.
And that's a reason why so manybusinesses don't end up selling
and then close instead becauseyou, as an owner, either have to
adjust your expectations and tiethem to the real metrics of your
business, or you have to admit,hey. I don't have what it takes
(32:31):
to hit to sell an enterpriselevel business because I don't
have a structure in place. It'sdependent on me. You know,
there's a bunch of factors thatmake certain businesses risky,
and they won't sell.
Right? So,
Davina (32:46):
yeah. We're always, my husband and I are always looking
at businesses for sale when, youknow, we've kind of checked
things out, you know, and and itit it it is a challenge. It's
one of the things I'm alwaystelling women lawyers though is
that, it's it's one of my issueswith solo for life. I had so
(33:07):
many women friends that weresolo for thirty years, and then
they get to the point wherethey're like, oh, I need to
start thinking about the future,and I don't have enough safe or
invested. I haven't turned thisinto an asset that I can sell.
You know, there are a lot ofthings. And so that's why I'm
always encouraging women inparticular to start looking at
(33:31):
your law firm as building a lawfirm instead of staying solo for
so long for that reason.Because, when you go to, when
you, you get to the end, you'remost people just close-up shop.
That's really truly what lawyersoften do is just close-up shop
if you've been solo for years orthey might transition it to an
associate. And I have seen someassociates make bad deals
(33:53):
because they didn't understandwhat they were doing.
And suddenly, they're saddledwith all of these dead files
Juliet (34:01):
Right.
Davina (34:02):
That don't result in business and, you know, and and
all the burdens that go alongwith it. So, it it really is
critical to have to have asomebody who understands that
kind of thing. Yeah. So tell meabout
Juliet (34:14):
oh, sorry. I had to
Davina (34:15):
go ahead.
Juliet (34:15):
Stop on you. I I just had a thought about that. I
think for women who own theirown law firms, I mean, I would
say two two things. Right? Onething is that, not everybody
does wanna grow, and so you haveto know if you don't wanna grow
and why you don't wanna grow.
Right? You have to know thatyou're making a decision not
(34:35):
wanna to not wanna grow and whatthe consequences of that growing
is one one path, right, which iscompletely appropriate to take.
You wanna maximize your revenue.Right? But you don't necessarily
wanna have a big staff and hirea bunch of lawyers, and that's
not why you're doing it.
Right? And then the other pathis I think that women business,
(34:59):
women lawyers should look atacquiring other practice areas,
again, with help. Right? BecauseI think it's an underutilized,
and law firms are not, you know,they are not priced the same way
that a regular business wouldbe. Meaning, you don't take your
bottom line and multiplymultiply it towards a multiple
(35:22):
because there's just, you know,we have ethical reasons why
clients don't transfer, andthere's all kinds of things.
But there's ways to do that.Right? So if you think that you
wanna grow through acquisition,that is actually a strategy that
I think is underutilizedgenerally in law except among
the Am Jur group. Right? And sothat's really something, you
(35:45):
know, to look at as a womanlawyer.
And I I also wanna say that Ithink, for women business
owners, particularly lawyers,community is everything. You
have to have a community ofpeople around you. You need a
coach. You need somebody who'sgonna get you out of your own
(36:07):
head, because it's, you know,it's a lot. Right?
And Right. You know, running alaw firm, particularly with the
stress of the law part of it, isnot what anyone would really
sign up for if someone's if comeand buy this business. Right? So
so I think that for, you know,that that's that that is really
(36:32):
important to get clear on whyyou're doing what you're doing
and what your path is. And donot think you can go it alone
because you absolutely cannot.
I made that mistake for, youknow, a few years. It was
stupid. But, you know, you don'tknow what you don't know. And
also women are brain ofbootstrapping and, you know
Davina (36:52):
Yeah. And I think there's I think there's also
this feeling of everybody elsehas got it together but me. I
think we often feel that littleparanoia of, because I will have
people say to me, they'll hireme and we'll start our work and
should I hire a lawyer right nowor should I I wanna get my
systems all in place before Ihire a lawyer. And I'm like,
why? And they said, well, Idon't want them to see my mess.
(37:13):
And I'm like, you're hiring themto help you so you can have the
time to clean up the mess.Right? And there's this idea
that other people are going tobe judging us. If they look
behind the curtain, they'regonna judge what they see. And I
think high it's a high achievingwoman curse because high
achieving women and also, we'rein a competitive environment
(37:35):
with men, and that can be usedagainst us in a lot of ways if
people, you know, opposingcounsel perceive something about
us or whatever.
And especially if you're dealingwith nasty ones. Yeah. Men and
women. So I I I completelyunderstand where that where that
comes from. And I think despitethat, you gotta you gotta find
(37:58):
some people to trust, that youcan bring in and, to help you
because everybody I mean, I'vehad I've had plenty of coaches
because I they we all have blindspots.
Yep. We all have things thaterror we may even see them and
still not know how to overcomethem. Even if intellectually, we
(38:18):
know. Emotionally, we might notknow how to overcome a thing.
Right?
So I think it's very, veryimportant. I agree with you to
have community. And I just wrotean article for the women on law,
newsletter. And I was talkingabout my experience when I first
hung out my shingle. And one ofthe mistakes that I made was I
didn't have, I didn't haveenough mentors.
(38:43):
I didn't really cultivate thosementor relationships. I was
fortunate in that I had some whosort of adopted me, but I didn't
talk with them enough, you know,really pick their brains enough,
really spend enough time. Ididn't, cultivate more
relationships like that, bothfor the subject matter and for
(39:05):
business. And there was nobodyfor business for me back then. I
didn't have anybody that waslike a model for me for business
and how to run a business.
I just kind of thought, and Ithink this is common. I just
kind of thought I can do this. Ican run a business. And I didn't
realize till I was in the thickof it, like, what that meant. I
knew how to get because since Icame from a marketing
background, I knew how to getwork.
(39:26):
That was no problem. But thenhow do I run all the other
aspects of the business? Andcoaching really changed that for
me, really helped me learn that.So and so but it's not just
coaches. It can be mentors whojust Absolutely.
Subject matter mentors or justyour network in terms of
business too. When you talkabout that's when you worked
your butt off, going out andgetting that network of people.
(39:50):
And it takes some time. We don'talways get in with the right
people to begin with. There'sgonna be a lot of people who
don't understand what we do andrefer us leads that we don't
want or need or spent, you know,in business formation.
We get a lot of the, you know, alot of the ones who are just
starting a business. They've gotno money, you know, versus that
level that we're looking for. SoI I agree with you completely on
(40:12):
that. What do you what are someof the things that you First of
all, I wanna hear about yourbiggest sort of, challenge that
you had to overcome. And thenI'd like to hear about your what
you think is that you've donereally, really well.
Juliet (40:27):
So I would say professionally, my biggest
challenge, was a lawsuit. Andlawyers don't talk about
lawsuits. Wow. They happen to alot of people. Yeah.
I was particularly
Davina (40:41):
They happen to a lot of lawyers.
Juliet (40:43):
They do. And, mine was particularly cloying, because it
was, really not based onanything that I did or didn't
do. So, and it went on for sixyears. It just recently ended,
(41:03):
as we were preparing for trial.I think what it has been my
biggest point of heartburn andalso my biggest teacher because
I had to learn how to run aroundit.
And I'll never forget one of myyou know, one of the best pieces
of advice I got was, from, thelawyer that helped me with some
(41:29):
stuff at the beginning prior to,you know, to all this going, you
know, the way it went was hesaid, you're gonna, you're gonna
put this in a box and you'regonna put the box on the shelf.
And you're only gonna take thebox down and look at it when
there's something you have todo. And then you're gonna put it
back, lid back on.
Davina (41:49):
That's wonderful.
Juliet (41:50):
I have thought I thought of that over six years, three
million times when I wanted tospin out of control.
Davina (41:56):
Yeah. Because it would just eat at you. I imagine. It
just eat away at you if you letit.
Juliet (42:00):
It's very and like I said, this one was particularly
if you let your head spin intosomeone fair or what the hell,
You know? At the end of the day,I did I was able to put it in a
box up on a shelf, only take itdown when I need to. I got some
(42:22):
good, you know, expertise ontestifying out of the deal. And,
I think that the fact that Icould do that and carry on with
my life and my business and havesome of my best years despite
that, I if you had told me thatten years ago, I would have
(42:44):
laughed in your face. But, youknow And if they told you that
Davina (42:48):
you would have a six year law, like, at the
beginning, you would have beenlike, oh my god. I can't do
this. And So crazy. It'sincredible. It's interesting
because you also got theperspective of a client.
Right. Right? Yep. It goesthrough such a thing. I I was
involved in a lawsuit with, saleof a business Yeah.
(43:08):
Years ago. And, definitelymistakes. I made the I didn't
hire the best lawyer for it. Butfortunately, we were able to
resolve it pretty quickly, butour biggest mistake is we didn't
vet the people buying thebusiness. Yeah.
I understand. You know, stuffstuff so we should have probably
hired more help at the beginningwhen we were selling
(43:28):
representation. But you learnyou learn things. And I think a
lot of lawyers, that's somethingthat we don't talk about in in
the law of malpractice lawsuits.We don't talk about grievances.
I mean, I've I've worked withsome of the best lawyers and had
them as clients and they've beengrieved. And it's devastating
when they're grieved. And mostof the times, it they prevailed
(43:50):
because there's nothing to it.Right. But it those kinds of
things.
I think that's one of thescariest things to me about
being a lawyer. I used to say inthe beginning, I was like, it's
like the only career where theytake away your whole career
Right. If you screw up. If youmake the wrong mistake, they'll
take it they'll take away yourbar license, you know. But it
you know, they don't do that ifyou own a restaurant or
(44:11):
whatever.
Juliet (44:12):
Right? Exactly.
Davina (44:13):
And so, well, so that was your biggest challenge, and
that's some great advice forpeople to be able to car
compartmentalize like that ishuge. And and probably the only
way you were able to emotionallysort of survive. Yep.
Juliet (44:25):
Yeah. So Learn some hard lessons about insurance through
that. I mean, there were a lotof learning lessons. Right?
Yeah.
I would say my biggest, I wouldsay my biggest success, is, not
necessarily directly tied to thebusiness. It's where I've gone
personally in the last twelveyears. I've had some incredibly
(44:48):
challenging personal times witha lot of death, illness, and,
you know, to family members and,really, really rough rough go.
And I think that, for me, beingable to continue to swim in very
(45:10):
choppy water is, really thething I'm the most proud of and
have done the work as I wasgoing through it to really
excise a lot of mental barriersthat I had that I didn't know I
had. And there's a huge amountof resilience that I've built,
(45:34):
you know, and that has shownitself in my business as an and
as I'm ready to pivot again alittle bit, do a little bit more
coaching and training and alittle bit more, you know,
writing and speaking and all ofthose kinds of things.
I think I wouldn't necessarilyhave been able to do that if I
was the same person I was twelveyears ago. So, I think that,
(46:01):
embracing things that I'm scaredof I mean, I definitely was
nervous about m and a. And, youknow, if I had not embraced that
fear and kind of push throughit, I would not have had the
gift of all of the transactionsI've done, you know, after that.
(46:22):
Right? Which have given me a lotof richness in terms of having
personal, really have, having,you know, personal, you know,
good job.
Right? I I get that the serve isit the service aspect of helping
people sell their businesses hasreally been a gift for me. And,
(46:46):
you know, at its core, that'salways what I wanted to do is
serve. My service has justlooked differently at different
times of my life. Right?
But it's, if I had not gonethrough that fear and really
said I can learn what it takesto do that, I would not be where
(47:06):
I am. And it isn't easy. Right?I mean, you've gotta do the you
have to do the work. And, youknow, you backslide.
Right? I mean, I was I wastalking to someone a couple of
weeks ago. I was like, wait aminute. You mean it isn't a
destination?
Davina (47:22):
It's like you leave your no, you're gonna get to a point
Juliet (47:26):
and then you're just gonna stop and
Davina (47:27):
it's gonna all be good. That is not how life works.
There's always a challenge.There's always something facing
us that that that revealsanother part of ourselves that
we maybe don't wanna look at or
Juliet (47:38):
that
Davina (47:38):
we don't wanna talk about or didn't even know
existed. So yeah. Yeah. That istrue. And I do think some of
this is it's the beauty of,aging too.
It's the beauty of gettingolder, and then you start to see
a lifetime's career and a bodyof work. And looking back at
that and saying, I'm I'm proud.It wasn't where I thought I was
gonna go or what I thought itwould look like, but, wow, I'm
(47:59):
very proud of that and what I'veaccomplished. And for me, I
think it I feel a a stronger andmore capable just because of
years of the experiences I'vehad and things I've had to learn
and, you know, that I neverthought I would have to learn
and all of that. And then youjust feel like, okay.
(48:20):
Well, I'm, you know, I'm the$6,000,000 woman now or
whatever. Right? And thensomething else challenges that,
but nonetheless, there are thoseand I think that you mentioned
earlier about joy and findingjoy in our lives. Even as you're
going through this, you'reyou're finding joyful
(48:41):
experiences in your life even asyou're kind of being attacked
and feel like you're having tofight. There's things there that
felt joyful for you.
So give me an example of, like,some of those things.
Juliet (48:53):
So it's funny because I have such a complicated
relationship with the word joybecause I used to have, like, a,
every year, I would set a, youknow, a phrase that I would
meditate on that would come tome for the for the following
year. And I, think it was eitherin one one of these particularly
(49:14):
bad years, and it might havebeen right before the pandemic I
had set. The message I hadgotten was joy and ease, and
then the year proceeded to benothing about joy and nothing
about ease. But now that I lookback, I think that was the
point. Right?
It's finding I I really do thinkthat was the point. Finding joy
(49:37):
and ease is of this thing. It'sinternal. You're not gonna find
it external. And it's it's beingable to see that when you're in
the darkest hours.
Right? That is where where youcan then look back and say, you
(49:58):
know, wow. There was joy, and Inow know, you know, I will now
know what ease feels likebecause maybe I didn't know, and
I had to go through what uneaseor disease felt like for a long
time before I can see it. So forme, joy, I'm really focusing on
(50:20):
the joy in the little things,particularly because I feel
right now we're in a verychaotic period of the world.
Mhmm.
Chaotic. And I think thatwhatever your ideas are, right,
you cannot help if you're athinking people person to feel
(50:40):
the churn. The churn. The churn.The churn.
Right?
Davina (50:43):
Right.
Juliet (50:43):
So I think, you know, for me, it's remembering to look
at the sunrise, look at thesunset to, you know, be grateful
for, you know, a coffee or Imean, I have gone really micro
because I think we've beenfooled, you know, into thinking
(51:06):
joy is big. Right?
Davina (51:07):
Right.
Juliet (51:08):
I can't hear you. Those big moments when you have a
baby, when you when you, youknow, when you get married. And,
yes, those are all wonderful,but that is not day to day. And
if you expect that, you're gonnabe sorely disappointed because
that is not what the daily tasksof living look like.
Davina (51:25):
Yeah.
Juliet (51:26):
Right? I agree with you. I agree with you.
Davina (51:28):
And that's something, been having that discussion with
my husband lately because we're,you know, talking about various
things going on in the world andthings going on with family and
all sorts of things. And I and Isaid, you know, and he gets into
this and I'm like, we have tostop and look where we are or
what we have, what today isgonna look like, what because
really, we're so blessed. We'reso fortunate. We're so, you
(51:51):
know, and and it can be hardwhen you're seeing the
suffering, you know, going onaround you or whatever. But the
trigger word for me is fun.
That's a fun I can't people saymy mother always says, did you
have fun? What did you do tohave fun this week? And I'm
like, I literally work. Right?That's my fun.
(52:12):
I work. I talk to people. Iwork. Right. And so it's
something that she doesn'tunderstand.
Yeah. Fun is a thing that it'salways been that way with me
with people. We're gonna go dosomething like ride a roller
coaster. Well, to me, that's notfun. Right?
So my idea of fun and if you'rean introverted person or a
cerebral person or whatever,your idea of fun is different
(52:34):
from others. So when I hear theword fun, I'm like, can we
choose a different word? Whatdoes that look like? Did I hear
you?
Juliet (52:41):
I agree with you on that. Fun. That's a hard word.
Also, hobby. That's the worstword for me.
Davina (52:46):
Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Hobbies. One of my hobbies are
my hobbies are starting anotherbusiness.
My hobbies are talking withpeople about business. Right. My
hobbies are going to the gym,which, you know, how sad is
that? But that is my hobby isgoing to
Juliet (52:59):
the gym. Actually a
Davina (53:00):
good hobby. Yeah. It's a good hobby. I've
Juliet (53:02):
yes. Well wish I had that hobby. I'm always working
on that hobby, and it alwaysfeels more like a chore than a
hobby. But, oh,
Davina (53:09):
I I had to do a lot of work to change my mindset around
that because for years I mean, Igrew up with two sisters, and we
were never encouraged to playsports or do anything like that.
And, I I've never, I've alwaysbeen a head head, hard person
and body last. And so over theyears, I happen to be married to
somebody who is athletic andhe's a fitness coach through the
(53:33):
years. We owned a gym. I mean,so I have that person who is,
you know, always encouraged me.
And I look at it now, especiallyin our age and I go, I'm so
grateful that I'm with somebodywho promotes my health and
well-being because it'ssomething, you know, years ago,
I didn't consider it that. I wasalways about aesthetics. Yeah.
So it's very interesting how youchange as you get a little bit
(53:54):
older about that. Alright.
So Yep. Go ahead. Oh, no. Yougo. I was gonna say we need to
end.
I probably could talk to youinto the next hour, but let's go
ahead and end. And why don't youtell us where we can get in
touch with you and find out moreabout the work you're doing
there in Arizona?
Juliet (54:09):
So you can, go to the website, which is
frameworklegal.com. And I ampersonally on LinkedIn at
Juliette Peters. I frameworklegal also is on LinkedIn and
Facebook and Instagram. You canfind me, everywhere pretty much,
but TikTok. Not yet on TikTok.
Davina (54:29):
So same. Alright, Juliet. Thank you so much for
being here. I really enjoyed ourconversation.
Juliet (54:35):
This was awesome. Thank you.
Intro (54:37):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
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