March 27, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, I sit down with Rose Moran, founder of Crafted Identities, a business development and marketing implementation company serving law firms exclusively. Rose brings more than 15 years of experience in helping attorneys and law firms build impactful business development strategies, develop strong personal and firm identities, and optimize their presence both online and off.
Listen in as Rose and I discuss how law firm owners can create authentic, differentiated brands without following a cookie-cutter formula. You’ll hear insights on showing up online with intention, making strategic use of content, and embracing platforms in a way that aligns with your personality. Plus, we dive into how to balance personal branding with firm growth and how to incorporate your values into your visibility strategy.
This conversation is for every law firm owner who’s ever wondered how to stand out in a crowded market—and do it in a way that feels real.
Don’t miss it!
LINKS TO LOVE:
To learn more about Rose and Crafted Identities, visit craftedidentities.com or connect with Rose on LinkedIn.
Want to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts? We’d love it! Here’s the link.
Ready to scale your law firm and build a practice that aligns with your values? Book a call with Davina.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
Davina (00:05):
if
Intro (00:05):
you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
(00:25):
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
(00:48):
here's Devina.
Davina (00:50):
Hello, and welcome back to the wealthy woman lawyer
podcast. I'm your host, DevinaFrederick, And my guest today is
Rose Moran, founder of craftedidentities, a business
development strategy andmarketing implementation company
that works exclusively with lawfirms and lawyers on business
development. With more thanfifteen years of marketing and
business development experience,Rose helps law firms refine
(01:12):
their business development andstrategic marketing
communications. Throughout hercareer, she has successfully
managed and executed every stageof the marketing and sales
funnel. Her MBA in financeallows her to bridge data and
execution.
With experience leading large 40plus and small teams, Rose is
skilled at driving results andmaking things happen. She's led
(01:35):
business development andstrategic marketing efforts for
one of the fastest growing AMLaw one hundred firms. And she's
advised at the firm practice andindividual attorney level for
intellectual property, labor andemployment, litigation,
healthcare, corporatetechnology, real estate law, and
other business law areas. Shehas also collaborated with legal
(01:57):
recruiting and new lateralattorneys to support law firm
growth, developing the attorneyand business development and
marketing plans to ensure aseamless and profitable
transition. Rose's passion forwords and relationships led her
to marketing.
An avid reader, she knows how totell a story and that words
matter. Words clarify, inspire,and build the foundation for a
(02:19):
story that urges action andbuilds relationships. Words can
make or break your marketingmessage and your client
relationships. So please join mein welcoming Rosemarie Anne to
the Wealthy Woman Lawyerpodcast. Hi, Rose.
It's so good to have you here.
Rose (02:33):
Thanks for having me, Devina. I'm excited to be here.
Davina (02:37):
So I introduced you, in, before we got started, but I'd
like for you to tell me a littlebit about your background and
how you came to do this kind ofbusiness development work for
law firms.
Rose (02:51):
Sure. Sure. Of course. So funny enough, I fell into it. It
was just life.
So I've been in corporatemarketing for twenty years,
fifteen of which in legal. I wasat a job working for a
manufacturer and felt like I hitmy limit. So I applied for a law
firm job and I got it and didn'tlook back. I was at a big law
firm for ten years, dideverything from biz dev pitch
(03:14):
proposal work to events tosponsorships to strategic
communications. And then I movedover to a trial graphics
company.
So night and day different onthe legal spectrum from b to b
corporate to primarily personalinjury, med mal, construction
defect. And then I decided, youknow what? It's time to take the
leap. And I went out on my ownto use the skills I learned to
(03:35):
help so many other law firms.
Davina (03:37):
Yeah. Yeah. You and I have that in common. I worked in
house for a law firm. It waskind of a medium size.
It was the largest law firm inour area, but it was kind of a
medium sized law firm. And I wasthe you know, when you're the
marketing manager, you kind ofdo special events. You handle
corporate tables. You do PR. Imean, you sort of do it all,
(03:58):
wear all the hats.
Right? But it's a great it's agreat experience and great
education on legal marketing. Sotell us about your company now
and how you serve clients.
Rose (04:09):
Sure. So we help bridge business development strategy
and strategic communicationsbecause you can't have the
strategy without the strategiccomms. Because the first thing
anyone does is they Google youafter you meet them. So you can
have a great plan and a greatstrategy and know who you're
targeting. And sometimes thatdoes need a little help and we
can step in and help you figureout how you find your edge and
what makes you unique and builda positioning statement to help
(04:31):
you get focused on how you talkto people, where you network,
what you do.
But then you also have to havethat digital presence anymore.
It's not enough to just be greatat what you do and tell people
that. You have to prove itonline. So how do we help make
your LinkedIn profile look greatand coincide with your website?
How do we make sure your websitebio, your practice pages all
align?
(04:51):
And then how do we make surethat the thought leadership
you're putting out is alignedwith all of that as well? So
it's sort of a multi tierapproach to make sure that you
show up strongly online. Andthen what we also try to do with
our thought leadership isoptimize it for SEO because
there's no reason to do it ifnobody can find it.
Davina (05:08):
Okay. Alright. So let's so the name of the business is
Crafted Identities. How what doyou what does that mean to you?
We say when we say CraftedIdentities, is kind of tell me a
little bit more about that.
Rose (05:21):
Yeah. So the name does have sort of a a deeper meaning
to me because I I really feellike our identity is who we are.
It's tied up into our business,especially if we're our own
business owner. We can't reallydivorce ourselves from the work
that we do, and our our personalbrand is really tied to our
company brand. And as much as wewant to say you've got a big
firm platform, if you're at anAMA firm or a mid sized firm,
(05:42):
it's still a people business.
So how do we make sure that youas a person are represented in a
way that feels comfortable andauthentic to you, but also
aligns with your practice andwith your firm identity? And so
it really all has to be craftedand put together in a really
cool package that resonates atall levels of the firm.
Davina (06:00):
Right. And so you work with, individual attorneys
within a law firm to help themdevelop their own presence, as
well as working overall with thelaw firm with kind of what the
mission is. Right? Yep.Absolutely.
Rose (06:15):
They both have work together.
Davina (06:18):
So tell me a little bit more about that. How does that
work?
Rose (06:21):
Well, typically if you've in a larger firm with a lot of
attorneys, you have a strategyand you know what that strategy
is, but sometimes as anindividual, I don't want to say
contributor, but I'm gonna saybusiness developer, you have to
find a way to tell that strategyin a way that's unique to you.
And not everybody wants to writearticles. Not everyone wants to
speak at events. Not everyonewants to go to networking
events. But there is somethingthat feels right to you.
(06:44):
And so what we do is we helpfind what that is, that avenue,
and we use your firm strategy.And if it's your own firm,
that's super easy because it'svery much tied to what you do
every day to get out there andhelp you share that message with
people. And then also use thatstrategic communication piece to
make sure that it shows uponline in the
Davina (07:02):
way that you're showing up offline. Right. You you
touched on something that isvery important. It's very
important to me in the way thatI talk with people about their
marketing. And that is to kindalet people off the hook that you
don't have to go do things thatfeel unnatural to you to be able
to develop and grow yourpractice.
Right? Right. You, in fact, it'snot going to be very effective.
(07:24):
And I think a lot of people getlocked into this idea of it has
to look a certain way. And Iknow this comes from this
traditional law firm mindset ofwhere we used to have to go to
networking meetings, and we hadto write articles and be
published and all this kind ofstuff.
What are you finding now in themarket, that some of the things
(07:45):
that lawyers are doing to standout and connect with potential
clients and bringing businessfor other firms? What types of
things are they doing?
Rose (07:54):
The activity that they're doing are really built around
credibility and authority. Andso, you know, as I mentioned
earlier, it has to resonate andfeel authentic to who you are
and how you practice law. ButI've really found building your
personal brand within thecontext of your firm is a big
help. And everybody does that adifferent way. LinkedIn, I feel
like it's still very powerfuland it's a great way to share
your firm message and yourindividual message.
(08:17):
But you don't have to alwayswrite content about your firm.
You can showcase the morepersonal aspects of your life
and create those connectionsonline that you do in the
personal world. Because when yougo to a networking event, you
don't only talk about the casesyou work on. You talk about your
family. You talk about yourhobbies.
You build a relationship. And sowhat we try to tell people is
when you're talking online andwhen you're talking offline,
(08:39):
what are the things thatresonate with you that you like
to talk about that help youbuild those relationships? And
so we try to infuse that in yourbio, infuse that in talking
points, help you use that whenyou send outreach messages to
potential clients or even toclients to check on them to see
how they're doing. Becauseeverybody wants to build a
relationship, whether it's legalor, you know, personal. I really
(09:00):
feel like what we do in thelegal space is very personal.
And so let's capitalize on that.And then let's make it feel
authentic to you. Another thingthat really helps is still the
the writing. Being in front ofpeople, whether it's through
email, through social media, orthrough that very strategic
thought leadership builds yourcredibility. It helps you show
(09:20):
up in search.
And it also sometimes helps youget your ideas around topics for
you to talk about offline. Iswhat we really like to recommend
is the legalese topics aregreat. The law review topics are
great, but those aren'tnecessarily the ones that people
are looking for to help themmake a buying decision. And so
how can we talk about the biggerpicture topics that resonate
with people as they make adecision on what law firm to go
(09:43):
to and how credible andauthoritative you are?
Davina (09:47):
Yeah. And I think this can be an a sticking point for a
lot of lawyers who have this,you know, idea that, I remember
when blogging was a thing. Mhmm.And a lot of lawyers would a
blog, and you would read whatthey're writing, and it's like a
legal brief. And I'm like,nobody wants to read this,
especially even other lawyersdon't wanna read it because, you
know, when you're scrollingsocial media, the last thing you
(10:10):
wanna do is get into this deeplegal analysis.
And, yeah, the lawyers are well,that shows my expertise, and
then I know what I'm talkingabout and the credibility. Have
you noticed a shift in thatmindset as particularly as
younger generations are cominginto the workforce and maybe
getting into rainmakingactivities? I think it's
starting. There's definitelystill this idea that you have to
(10:32):
be super technical to show yourability and your skill,
Rose (10:34):
But someone's talking to you knows you have the ability
and the skill. You are a goodlawyer. That should be table
stakes and it is table stakes ina lot of conversations. But
being able to speak business, tohave a personal conversation, to
not necessarily use legalese inevery marketing avenue, I think
is a benefit. And I I do see itstarting to to turn.
Davina (10:56):
Right. Right. So how how are older lawyers taking to
social media? What kinds ofthings are they struggling with?
And what kinds of things are youseeing that are going really
well?
Rose (11:11):
I think people always struggle about what to share
that's not work related. Becauseeveryone says, oh, LinkedIn is
only to showcase my wins and howgreat we're doing and promote
client deals and successes. Butyour firm culture, personal life
outside of work to a point, ofcourse, is what really does
resonate with people. What areyour experiences? What are your
(11:32):
opinions?
What are your thoughts oncurrent events, you know, within
reason that resonate with otherpeople that help you make those
connections and showcase who youare as a person. For the maybe
older generation of attorneysthat didn't ever have to use
LinkedIn and relied on more oftheir offline BD activities.
It's it sometimes is a mindsetshift. But those that embrace it
(11:54):
and understand that the worldlooks at the digital presence
now so much more than they usedto. They are seeing traction and
it is a win for them.
But it very much is a mindsetshift. I mean, for myself
talking about not just my work,but what I do outside of work
and what my thoughts andopinions are. It's hard and
doing it for yourself is hard.But once you get over that
(12:15):
initial hurdle, the ball doesstart to roll.
Davina (12:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I I struggle with that. I'm a I'm a Gen Xer,
and so and I really value myprivacy. So I really I agree.
I hear you. Yeah. I also came upin a culture where you didn't
talk about your personal beliefsand your personal life outside
of work. You were to leave thatoutside of work and you're
(12:38):
explicitly told leave thatoutside of Nobody cared what you
were doing other than if you didsomething that reflected
negatively on the firm, on thebusiness. Right?
So if there were pictures Imean, if there were pictures of
you out partying and they cameup on social media, I mean, that
was a negative sort of thing. SoI've noticed there's a real
(12:58):
shift. A lot of young lawyers,particularly starting their own
businesses, are putting theirwhole selves out there. I have a
client who, dances. She dances.
Rose (13:07):
Oh, cool.
Davina (13:08):
After, after hours, that's what she does for
hobbyists and she loves it. It'sa passion of hers. Dances in
heels. And so it's very sexydancing and she's very good at
it. And she puts that out thereand then she also puts out
content related to her, freeupsand divorce and her brands
(13:29):
around that.
And she says, you know, for her,it's about putting her whole
self out there so that peoplesee I'm a person, not just this
talking head lawyer who'stelling you what to do. And, and
for me that, you know, I look assomebody who was brought up in a
culture where that was theopposite. That's the opposite of
what you do. Yeah. But I see alot more lawyers are bracing
(13:52):
that and doing so successfully.
Yeah. I've got a client who gets98% of her business off social
media and her brand is singlemom attorney. And she developed
that as a showcase of shedeveloped that to develop
community when she was a singlemom going through law school and
it has grown into a huge brandand she's been able to open
(14:15):
multiple offices in her state asa result of the work doing that.
And for those of us who kindacame up in a law firm culture,
we look at that and go, oh mygosh. Are you kidding me?
I would never like put myselfout there that way. But it's so
it's kind of refreshing to seepeople doing this and becoming
so successful at it. And just tosee that mindset shift. What do
(14:37):
you tell people, like me who arelike, you know, I really don't.
I didn't really wanna share, youknow, that me playing with my
dog or hanging out with myhusband or going for like, my
life's not very exciting.
It's all reading and playingwith the dog.
Rose (14:49):
I think that's very exciting. Right? I know that's
very exciting.
Davina (14:53):
What do what do people like us do, who are you know? I
I certainly know with womenlawyers get older, people are
like, I don't wanna be oncamera. Are you kidding me?
Like, what do you how do youhelp them sort of overcome that
reluctance to be more visibleand share more of their personal
lives?
Rose (15:11):
I I would say it's baby steps. I mean, you're not gonna
go from sharing nothing tosharing pictures of yourself
dancing overnight. And so, whatare those milestones and what
are those smaller things thatare relatable that you might
think are boring, but otherpeople would love? Like you have
a dog and you're passionateabout, let's say, fostering
dogs. That's an amazing thing toshare.
(15:31):
That's personal, not superpersonal, but also very
relatable. So I think havingthat conversation and
understanding of what you love,what your passions are, what
other people talk about andwould find interesting and that
you would wanna talk about withthem too is where we like to
start.
Davina (15:47):
Yeah. I mean, I do think the there is this idea now that
everybody wants to feel likethey know somebody. And I think
one of the advantages of socialmedia, whatever platforms you're
on, is the know, like, and trustfactor kind of occurs, before
you even know people. And it's alittle creepy sometimes because
people are like, oh, you know, Ijust I know you so well. How's
(16:07):
your mother-in-law doing in inyour move to Colorado?
And you're like, oh, yeah. Iforgot I did talk about that on
the podcast. And then you knownothing about them. But, I it's
a very powerful whereas we usedto have to develop that know,
like, and trust after they hiredus. Mhmm.
You know? Now we have to developit. We developed it before, and
(16:29):
it makes the hiring piece a loteasier.
Rose (16:31):
Mhmm. Yeah. It does. And, you know, for a lot of business
owners, they have started theirown business. I'm sure this is
probably true for a lot of yourlisteners because they wanna
select and work with the clientsthey wanna work for.
And by putting your whole selfout there and being authentic in
your messaging on social media,it helps you attract those
people as well. And you don'thave to go to the extreme and
(16:52):
talk about very Politics.Politics. Exactly. I take the
words out of my mouth.
But you can talk about thingsyou're passionate about. Like,
if it's dog rescue or if it'sdance or if it's advocacy in
some other way shape or form oryour kids. I mean, all of these
things are relatable topotential clients to those in
your community. And one thing Ireally like to stress when we
(17:12):
think about content and socialmedia is the social part. Like,
it's turned into a big marketingmachine, which is great and it
does help.
But by being social, it helpsbuild that know, like, and trust
factor for the people get toknow you, wanna hire you before
knowing you, and maybe when theyonly sort of know you.
Davina (17:31):
Right. Right. Right. Currently, now, I'm binging on
content for from a realtor who'sin another state. But I'm
thinking I might invest in realestate in that and just hire her
because I love her so much andlove her content.
And I'm, I, I am looking at itgoing, man, how do I create this
kind of content? Part of it is Ilove her topic. Right? Oh yeah.
(17:52):
So I gravitate to that and I, Idon't, you know, wouldn't
couldn't talk about that topic,but it's she's so compelling as
a speaker and a person and soreal.
And Yeah. I could see how, youknow, like and I think a lot of
attorneys it used to be thatattorneys, and, and I still is
to some degree, particularlywith bigger law firms with male
(18:14):
attorneys. I know there's a lotof this idea that, like with
doctors, lawyers used to behere. We were the keeper and
holder of this claim ofknowledge that other people
didn't have. And so we werelooked at as these trusted
advisors on a, on a level where,you know, what my doctor says is
(18:36):
sacrosanct.
Well, my lawyer says issacrosanct. And now that's not
really how we're functioning inthe world. So much information
is available to people outthere. It really does come down
to kind of a personalrelationship more than this
going and putting your CV on thewebsite. Well, I went to Harvard
(18:56):
and I graduated here and I didthat.
And, you know, I'm on theseboards and all that. I remember
in the late nineties, we wereputting a lot of, we were
creating a lot of websites forlawyers and they were all like
that. They were all green andgold or blue and gold, and they
all had the every lawyer'sresume on there. And that was
(19:16):
the important thing. Are weseeing a shift in that now?
And what kinds of things are weseeing?
Rose (19:21):
Yeah. I I think the resume part is still important, but how
many people graduated fromHarvard? You know, how many
people have won this type oflitigation case? And I think
taking all that and blending itwith some of the more personal
is what we're starting to see inmore and more firm bios, big or
small. Because those personalfacts are really what connect
you to a client.
(19:43):
And what I've heard talking withclients is the feedback they get
from their clients is the biosthat are a little more personal
are the ones that are fun toread and the ones that help them
seal the deal and make theconnection with the prospect.
Because again, it's all aboutrelationships. And your firm
platform is very important andyou shouldn't disregard that,
But it's you still have a verypersonal, intimate relationship
(20:04):
with the client. So sometimesbeing a little bit vulnerable
does pay off to build that know,like, and trust factor.
Davina (20:11):
So have I don't know if you've worked with, smaller
firms, but one of the strugglesof small firm owners is a lot of
them are really good at buildingthe brand around their personal
identity, and they're the faceof the brand. Then they start
growing and they start hiringteam members. Then there's this
push pull of, I want to involvemore people and have this team
(20:34):
involved, but everybody wants tohire me. And so how do you help
them sort of overcome thatthrough their crafted identity
of their law firm and their teamand all that? What kinds of
things, what advice would youhave for people in that
situation?
Rose (20:50):
I think that's actually super common. What I tell people
is it comes down to values. Andso when you hire people and you
grow your team, oftentimes youhire people with a similar value
set and a similar skill set. Solike, while they may not be
getting you the owner of the lawfirm, they're getting someone
else that is a representation ofyou and your brand. And so that
they can rest assured and knowthat you've onboarded this
(21:13):
person.
They have the skill sets. Theyhold the same beliefs. They
reflect the firm's values, andthey'll be in just as good
hands. And you're also overhere. Should anything happen, it
won't, but you're all you'restill there.
And so you work as a team. Yousupport each other, and you're
all a reflection of what thefirm stands for from what you
built.
Davina (21:31):
Yeah. And how do you bring them into the visibility
piece of it? How do you bring inother team members to if you're
the face of the brand, whatkinds of things are you doing
with clients to help them getsome of the other lawyers on
their team to be a part of thatwithout appearing to be distinct
from them?
Rose (21:51):
Right. I I think a lot of it comes down to your strategy.
And so what are those values?And how do we infuse that
language in the content thatthey're creating both for your
firm, whether that's articles,blogs, what have you, podcasts,
or individual social media postson on LinkedIn or another
platform? And then also, taggingand talking and connecting with
each other on the platform toshow that you are a team.
(22:13):
You do work together. You sharesimilar ideas. But it it does
have to feel connected andcohesive. You can't have one
person talking about, you know,a and somebody else is talking
about w. It's gotta gotta worktogether in your plan.
Davina (22:28):
Yeah. You talk a lot about LinkedIn. I know that a
lot of my clients don't likeLinkedIn. They prefer Facebook.
And they say, well, I've beendoing Facebook attorney moms
groups.
Yep. Since 02/2007, I don't likeLinkedIn or I found Instagram to
be much more fun. Are we seeingthat? Because I know a lot of
(22:50):
people think of LinkedIn andthey think professional, and I
know we see that with a lot oflarger firms. Are we seeing that
a larger firm sort of alsocoming out on some of these
other social media sites, or isLinkedIn the place?
Rose (23:02):
So I I like LinkedIn. I feel like the algorithm is more
in favor of the person puttingcontent out there. You're gonna
get more views. You're gonna getmore interactions just because
of how meta Facebook, Instagramhas evolved over time. That's
not to say you shouldn't useFacebook and Instagram.
But for me, when I think aboutthe person coming to those
platforms and where their mindis, typically for Facebook and
(23:25):
Instagram, it's a more socialplatform. You wanna see what
people are doing. You wannaunderstand where they are,
what's happening in their livesor their work lives. And so what
we do is if you wanna have aspecific strategy for each
social channel, Facebook,Instagram are great to showcase
your people, your culture, andwhat you're doing in the
community. That gets a ton oftraction.
(23:47):
Or if you've been on a lawyermom group since 02/2007, you've
probably unknowingly been veryvulnerable, very personal, and
built those relationships andconnections that way. But those
that are just starting or wannathink about doing something
different, LinkedIn is shifting.It's no longer just your CV.
It's no longer just workupdates. People are sharing more
(24:07):
personal information.
And so being on there whensomeone is in more of a work
mind frame can be very helpfulfor an attorney building a book
of business.
Davina (24:16):
Okay. And, I mean, give me some sort of, insight into
the best way to sort of buildrelationships on LinkedIn
because I know there's a lot ofthis anybody who signed up for
LinkedIn knows that you sign up,and you're gonna get all these
inbox spamming things. Yeah.Yeah. People will get lost
trying to connect with youbecause you get so many.
(24:39):
So how do people use LinkedIn ina way to really build those
relationships if we're gettingif if it has this problem and it
does have this problem with
Rose (24:49):
Yeah. So I it's a I think it's about being social. So
social media, you have to have asocial component to it. And so
if you don't feel comfortableposting your own content,
comment on people's posts whosecontent aligns with your values,
with your work, with yourpassions. And so if someone else
is a another female mom lawyerposting about mom life in the
(25:11):
law firm, comment on that.
Send them a message. But whenyou comment on their post, it
doesn't show up in the inbox ofa whole bunch of spam that you
get. I understand I've beenapproached by probably like 12
VA companies this week alone.And that's wonderful and it
works for them and there's areason they do it. But if you're
there to build relationships andcommunity, you're gonna get that
more through interacting andengaging with people's posts and
(25:33):
then sending them a message.
But also making sure that yourprofile is optimized because
people do search on there forspecific individuals, law firm
services. So making sure thatyour headline, your about really
aligns with what you do, you'reeasy to find, and then it also
aligns with your website.
Davina (25:49):
Yeah. I think Sales Navigator is a a good tool that
LinkedIn has added where you canuse that tool to help you, sort
through kind of and look exactlywhat you're looking for. And I
know a lot of, our lawyers havebeen using that to help connect
with people for recruitingpurposes because Absolutely. You
(26:11):
know, they're they we also haveto approach recruiting in a lot
of the same way we recruit weapproach business development.
Mhmm.
And that you have to kind oflook from more of a relationship
standpoint, start buildingrelationships with people who
might know people who may belooking to make a change and
stuff like that. So they'restarting to use that kind of
tool in LinkedIn as well. Goback. Let's go back and talk
(26:36):
about your business. And I knowat the beginning you sort of,
told us the.
How you make that, how youbridge that gap. Right? But I'd
like to go in a little bit moredetail because I know a lot of
may not understand what, youknow, communications are and
what strategic plans are, youknow, and how that all fits
(26:56):
together. Right? Because we areapproached as lawyers, we're
approached by a lot of companieswho say, I'm a marketing
company.
Yeah. A marketing company couldbe selling us Google ads. They
could be selling us social mediaservices just for Instagram.
They could be so I really wantedpeople to get clear, on exactly
what are what you do so thatthey can understand the services
(27:18):
you provide. I think what'sunique about what you do is that
if you've come up in theprofessional services
businesses, you know that thereare business developers or
rainmakers within a business.
And then there are marketingfolks who kind of do a lot of
implementing and things likethat. Right? So there's
different levels, marketingcoordinators and marketing
managers and marketing directorsand business developers and ring
(27:40):
makers, and there's alldifferent kinds of names for
different things. So if youcould provide some clarity on
how you fit into that picture, Ithink you're gonna help people.
Rose (27:49):
Sure. Sure. So I've had the privilege in my career of
doing both. And I really thinkto do both well, you have to do
both together. You can't have abusiness development plan to
figure out what you're gonnatalk about, who you're gonna go
after, how you're gonna approachpeople separate and apart from
how you talk about yourself.
And that's really what marketingcommunications is, is how do you
talk about yourself online? Andso what we do is we help you if
(28:11):
you don't already have one.Figure out what is your
strategy. Who are your targetclients? What is your audience
worried about?
What are the pain points thatyou solve for them? And once you
really clearly understand thatand you know where they are
offline and how you're gonnaconnect with them in that way,
you've got your businessdevelopment strategy. But the
first thing anybody does whenyou meet them offline or they're
(28:32):
referred to you by anothercolleague or friend is they
Google you. And so they're gonnalook at your firm bio. They're
gonna look at your firm website.
They're gonna look at anycontent that you've authored.
They're going to look at yourLinkedIn profile most of the
time too. And so we like to makesure that that is all shored up
as well. And it aligns withwhat's being said offline and
even ladders back up anotherlevel to your firm strategy.
(28:55):
Because your personal businessdevelopment strategy should tie
to your firm strategy becauseeverybody wants to grow.
And so when we all grow, it'swhat's the saying rising tides
lifts all boats. Yeah. And so wewanna make sure that that
happens. And what we do on theonline part is we really like to
look at your SEO because someonecan Google your name and it can
show up with all of this we do.But sometimes they forget who
(29:16):
you are and they just know, ohmy god, was referred to this
really specialized biotechpatent attorney in North Dakota
who focuses on this.
And so how do we make sure thatthe content that we produce not
only positions you to align withwhat you've said about yourself
and what people have said aboutyourself and what your website
says about you, but it shows upwhen people are looking for the
(29:38):
services that you provide. Andso by combining those three
areas, we really set you up tobe successful, to make those
connections, to build thattrust, and to build the
authority and the credibility.
Davina (29:49):
Right. Right. So really, once you help them do the deep
work of Mhmm. Your core values,your ideal client, where they
hang out, then you're helpingthem work on that messaging,
which
Rose (29:59):
really takes it
Davina (30:00):
down to that level of what a cohesive message of what
we're putting out there.
Rose (30:05):
Right.
Davina (30:05):
And, so from a practical standpoint, are you working on
if you're doing SEO, are youworking on developing websites
and doing SEO, or are youlooking at SEO of other types of
content and making sure thereare keywords, or what kind of
things are you doing there?
Rose (30:22):
All of the above. Okay. So we can help with websites. We
can also help you create thecontent. So so many times
attorneys just don't have timeto do it.
It's a nice to have for them,not a need to have, but really
it's a need to have, when peopleare looking for you. So we can
go straight the content. It'ssuper easy. We interview you
usually at one of the morebroader topics, not a very
(30:44):
in-depth case, analysis or legalbrief type article. And write
the content, work with you,optimize it for SEO.
So look at those keywords thatpeople are searching for. Make
sure they're in there. And thendo some more technical stuff on
the back end, to make sure youshow up in search. And make sure
that your message is resonatingand being found by the people
that need to find you. Becauseif you are not doing that, your
(31:07):
competitor's doing that.
So we want you to be in controlof your brand and your brand
story, and what's being foundonline should be dictated by
you, not by someone else.
Davina (31:16):
Right. Right. Do you have pushback from attorneys who
say, you're a non attorney. Howcan you write for me? Of course.
Rose (31:25):
Of course.
Davina (31:25):
How do you respond to that?
Rose (31:27):
I can say, well, I have lived and breathed legal for so
many years. The people that workon our team have legal
experience as well. I think Butmy
Davina (31:36):
special my special edit area. I know.
Rose (31:39):
I get it.
Davina (31:39):
Nobody else does.
Rose (31:41):
I get it. But how we do ghost written content is it's
based on an interview. Superpainless. We look at what people
are looking for in the internetrelated to what you do, And then
we pick a topic based on thosekeywords or that idea. And we
ask you a whole bunch ofquestions about it.
And then we come back to youwith an article that's done for
you to say, yes, this looksgreat. No, tweak this word, that
(32:02):
word, the other word. It's verypainless. And it helps get your
name out there, the firm's nameout there, and it helps you show
up in search and kinda controlyour message. Right.
Right. You can then use that forclient emails and for social
media. So it's really a a verygood way to do something once
and use it a gajillion times.
Davina (32:21):
Right. Good. So do we have to be on video? Because I
know this comes up a lot forpeople who are like and and I
don't know if you've experiencedit, but I've experienced some
people that no matter Yes. I hada client one time who was so
great when she was talkingspontaneously, but the minute
you put a front a camera infront of her, she went into
(32:41):
attorney mode, very and it wasvery robotic kind of thing.
She just froze up. And she hadthe most compelling personality
when she was just talking. Therewas no camera in the room. So
what do you think? Because we'rehearing
Rose (32:55):
a lot
Davina (32:56):
of of marketers out there saying, you really
everybody needs to be on videonow. That's what we need to be
doing. What are where do youland on that spectrum? I think
that
Rose (33:04):
goes back to what we talked about earlier and finding
what feels authentic and genuineto you. If you don't wanna do
video and it doesn't land withyou, don't do video is what I
tell people. If it's better todo shorter content on LinkedIn,
let's do that. If we're gonnahave a firm focus for a specific
area to show up for search andreally push for growth, let's do
(33:25):
that. If you love video and youwanna talk, let's figure out how
to do video for you.
So I I think it really has totie back to not only the firm
strategy with what you're doing,but at the individual attorney
level, it it has to be what'scomfortable for you. Because if
you make a video and you youawkward in it and you hate doing
every second of it, it's notgonna land with your your target
audience.
Davina (33:45):
Yeah. Yeah. I recently had something. So I've been
doing this podcast for sixyears, and I've done a lot of
videos. But I I recently wasexperimenting with something,
and they wanted me to write ascript and, do this presentation
with a script.
And I had somebody else who'slistening to it. I'm like, you
know, and script just isn'tthere. Like, oh my god. Yes,
Devina. Never use a script.
(34:05):
Just talk about things. Like,this is not you at all. And I
think it's really, important towe're not gonna change our
personalities No. In to domarketing. We really have to
find a way to work within ourpersonality Yeah.
In a place that fits. But Ialways tell people, like, there
(34:26):
are so many options out therenow for marketing. It used to
be, like, you had to go tonetworking events, and you had
rubber chicken dinners, and youhad to buy the corporate tables.
Rose (34:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Davina (34:36):
All of these things. Absolutely. That that's why
small firms couldn't get a lotof traction because it was they
were going to chamber meetings,you know? Yeah. Right.
And even the chamber was dividedinto like, here are the really
legitimate people and here arethe small potatoes over here.
Right? And so now it's with theinternet, with social media,
(34:56):
like it's really leveled theplaying field. Just thinking
back when we were doingwebsites, starting out, you, a,
a, a small firm can put up awebsite even more amazing than
what a big firm had. Yeah.
And you, you would see people'screativity come through and
their, how they differentiatedthemselves would come through.
Yeah. And so I'm that excitesme, and I think we're getting a
(35:18):
lot more of that. Let's talkabout AI for a minute. Oh, yeah.
What are your what are yourthoughts on AI? What do you have
you encountered, people say,well, I could use AI for that.
Or have you said, you know, howcan we use AI in our business to
help our clients better? Right.Right.
What kinds of things, thoughtsdo you have around AI?
Rose (35:40):
I have a love hate relationship with AI. Okay. I I
think if you use AI as it is,it's terrible. I tell people AI
is a great starting point,terrible ending point. And so I
if you don't use it to help withyour efficiency in some way
shape or form, you have a screwloose.
But I don't think you can relysolely on it. People have become
(36:02):
very aware of AI. And so whatcomes out of chat GPT,
perplexity, Claude, you can readit and based on sentence
structure, you know, triggerwords, you know that it's AI. So
I tell people, please don't dothat because it it sometimes
does more harm than good. Youknow, the rocket ship emoji.
It it's like a telltale sign forme. But use it to help you
(36:24):
brainstorm. Use it to figure outa calendar. Use it to put
together an outline and thenflush it out yourself. Because
when you do that, you add thathuman emotional experience story
into your content that you willnever get using AI.
No matter how good you programit, you won't have it. So Mhmm.
And that's the stuff that reallybuilds the relationships is the
(36:45):
the more vulnerable, the morepersonal. Like, AI can't talk
about the specific details thatyou did with a client that would
relate to another client about acase. And that's the interesting
stuff.
Yeah. So I know I I like it, butI don't love it.
Davina (37:01):
Yeah. It's interesting because I've used it recently
for something, and it workedreally well. But then I was
thinking about my I just thisyear started this monthly
newsletter, and I've beenremiss, and and March has not
been the best consistency monthfor me. But April there'll be
another one in April. And, I wasthinking about my newsletter, I
was thinking, really can't useAI for my newsletter in because
(37:22):
of the way that I write mynewsletter.
My newsletter is very personal.Me sharing personal story in
that or personal stories of myclients. And I was thinking, how
could I use AI for this? And AIis a great tool in a lot of
ways, but for what I want toaccomplish, that I was, I was, I
was thinking about that going,how would I use this? What could
(37:45):
I do that get part of the workdone for me?
And then I could go in and sortof put my own personal touch on
it. So I think, I know that alot of attorneys are embracing
AI. I've been asking a lot ofquestions about that lately
among my colleagues, and a lotof them really are loving it.
Like, it's front leading edge,and they're using it in a lot of
(38:06):
ways in their law firm toincrease efficiencies. And then
I'm also members of all thesecopywriter communities.
And my copywriter friends aregoing, oh my god. No. Like,
years of the work that we'vedone to be able to be such
persuasive copywriters. And thenwe're seeing people just go, oh,
well, Lily, we can just use AIfor that. And you're like, no.
It's really not the same thing.So I definitely, definitely
(38:29):
agree with you on that. Beforewe wrap up today, could you
share with, our audience ofwomen law firm owners maybe, two
or three pieces of advice, goldnuggets, so they can go away
with when it comes to not onlydeveloping their brand strategy,
but actually, getting their messtheir unique differentiators out
(38:53):
in the world. Because I think alot of lawyers struggle to say,
well, how am I different fromthe lawyer down the street who's
also offering estate planningservices or or whatever? So what
kinds of things do you tell themto help pull that out of them?
Rose (39:10):
The first thing I say is don't aff don't be excuse me.
Don't be afraid to be yourself.And I think that's really what
sets so many of us apart. No onehas our experiences. No one has
done the work we've done.
No one looks at the world theway that we do. And so how do we
take those things and marry themand put them out into the world
in a way that is trulyreflective of who you are. But
(39:30):
if you are a bright bold person,let's use bright bold language
and bright bold colors. If youare a more conservative
individual, let's make sure thatthat's reflective in your
language and who you are. Andyou're going to attract the
people and the businesses thatalign with that.
And those ideally, for many ofthe law firm owners, are the
ones you want to work withanyway. So I I always say lean
into who you are and embrace it.And I know it can feel very
(39:53):
scary to do that because it's alevel of openness and
vulnerability that most of usare not used to. But doing so
really does pay off enormously.
Davina (40:01):
Right. Right. I think that's great advice. Alright. So
how can we connect with you ifwe wanna connect with you and
find out more about craftedidentities?
Rose (40:09):
Reach out to me on LinkedIn, Rose Moran, or send me
a note on my website. My emailis also it's easy. It's
Rose@CraftedIdentities.com.Wonderful.
Davina (40:18):
Thank you so much, Rose, for
Rose (40:20):
being here.
Davina (40:20):
I really enjoyed our conversation. I always love to
talk shop with fellow marketers.So me too. Great.
Rose (40:26):
Alright. Yeah.
Davina (40:27):
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Intro (40:30):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
Wealthywealthywomanlawyer.com tolearn more about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
Davina (00:05):
if
Intro (00:05):
you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
(00:25):
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
(00:48):
here's Devina.
Davina (00:50):
Hello, and welcome back to the wealthy woman lawyer
podcast. I'm your host, DevinaFrederick, And my guest today is
Rose Moran, founder of craftedidentities, a business
development strategy andmarketing implementation company
that works exclusively with lawfirms and lawyers on business
development. With more thanfifteen years of marketing and
business development experience,Rose helps law firms refine
(01:12):
their business development andstrategic marketing
communications. Throughout hercareer, she has successfully
managed and executed every stageof the marketing and sales
funnel. Her MBA in financeallows her to bridge data and
execution.
With experience leading large 40plus and small teams, Rose is
skilled at driving results andmaking things happen. She's led
(01:35):
business development andstrategic marketing efforts for
one of the fastest growing AMLaw one hundred firms. And she's
advised at the firm practice andindividual attorney level for
intellectual property, labor andemployment, litigation,
healthcare, corporatetechnology, real estate law, and
other business law areas. Shehas also collaborated with legal
(01:57):
recruiting and new lateralattorneys to support law firm
growth, developing the attorneyand business development and
marketing plans to ensure aseamless and profitable
transition. Rose's passion forwords and relationships led her
to marketing.
An avid reader, she knows how totell a story and that words
matter. Words clarify, inspire,and build the foundation for a
(02:19):
story that urges action andbuilds relationships. Words can
make or break your marketingmessage and your client
relationships. So please join mein welcoming Rosemarie Anne to
the Wealthy Woman Lawyerpodcast. Hi, Rose.
It's so good to have you here.
Rose (02:33):
Thanks for having me, Devina. I'm excited to be here.
Davina (02:37):
So I introduced you, in, before we got started, but I'd
like for you to tell me a littlebit about your background and
how you came to do this kind ofbusiness development work for
law firms.
Rose (02:51):
Sure. Sure. Of course. So funny enough, I fell into it. It
was just life.
So I've been in corporatemarketing for twenty years,
fifteen of which in legal. I wasat a job working for a
manufacturer and felt like I hitmy limit. So I applied for a law
firm job and I got it and didn'tlook back. I was at a big law
firm for ten years, dideverything from biz dev pitch
(03:14):
proposal work to events tosponsorships to strategic
communications. And then I movedover to a trial graphics
company.
So night and day different onthe legal spectrum from b to b
corporate to primarily personalinjury, med mal, construction
defect. And then I decided, youknow what? It's time to take the
leap. And I went out on my ownto use the skills I learned to
(03:35):
help so many other law firms.
Davina (03:37):
Yeah. Yeah. You and I have that in common. I worked in
house for a law firm. It waskind of a medium size.
It was the largest law firm inour area, but it was kind of a
medium sized law firm. And I wasthe you know, when you're the
marketing manager, you kind ofdo special events. You handle
corporate tables. You do PR. Imean, you sort of do it all,
(03:58):
wear all the hats.
Right? But it's a great it's agreat experience and great
education on legal marketing. Sotell us about your company now
and how you serve clients.
Rose (04:09):
Sure. So we help bridge business development strategy
and strategic communicationsbecause you can't have the
strategy without the strategiccomms. Because the first thing
anyone does is they Google youafter you meet them. So you can
have a great plan and a greatstrategy and know who you're
targeting. And sometimes thatdoes need a little help and we
can step in and help you figureout how you find your edge and
what makes you unique and builda positioning statement to help
(04:31):
you get focused on how you talkto people, where you network,
what you do.
But then you also have to havethat digital presence anymore.
It's not enough to just be greatat what you do and tell people
that. You have to prove itonline. So how do we help make
your LinkedIn profile look greatand coincide with your website?
How do we make sure your websitebio, your practice pages all
align?
(04:51):
And then how do we make surethat the thought leadership
you're putting out is alignedwith all of that as well? So
it's sort of a multi tierapproach to make sure that you
show up strongly online. Andthen what we also try to do with
our thought leadership isoptimize it for SEO because
there's no reason to do it ifnobody can find it.
Davina (05:08):
Okay. Alright. So let's so the name of the business is
Crafted Identities. How what doyou what does that mean to you?
We say when we say CraftedIdentities, is kind of tell me a
little bit more about that.
Rose (05:21):
Yeah. So the name does have sort of a a deeper meaning
to me because I I really feellike our identity is who we are.
It's tied up into our business,especially if we're our own
business owner. We can't reallydivorce ourselves from the work
that we do, and our our personalbrand is really tied to our
company brand. And as much as wewant to say you've got a big
firm platform, if you're at anAMA firm or a mid sized firm,
(05:42):
it's still a people business.
So how do we make sure that youas a person are represented in a
way that feels comfortable andauthentic to you, but also
aligns with your practice andwith your firm identity? And so
it really all has to be craftedand put together in a really
cool package that resonates atall levels of the firm.
Davina (06:00):
Right. And so you work with, individual attorneys
within a law firm to help themdevelop their own presence, as
well as working overall with thelaw firm with kind of what the
mission is. Right? Yep.Absolutely.
Rose (06:15):
They both have work together.
Davina (06:18):
So tell me a little bit more about that. How does that
work?
Rose (06:21):
Well, typically if you've in a larger firm with a lot of
attorneys, you have a strategyand you know what that strategy
is, but sometimes as anindividual, I don't want to say
contributor, but I'm gonna saybusiness developer, you have to
find a way to tell that strategyin a way that's unique to you.
And not everybody wants to writearticles. Not everyone wants to
speak at events. Not everyonewants to go to networking
events. But there is somethingthat feels right to you.
(06:44):
And so what we do is we helpfind what that is, that avenue,
and we use your firm strategy.And if it's your own firm,
that's super easy because it'svery much tied to what you do
every day to get out there andhelp you share that message with
people. And then also use thatstrategic communication piece to
make sure that it shows uponline in the
Davina (07:02):
way that you're showing up offline. Right. You you
touched on something that isvery important. It's very
important to me in the way thatI talk with people about their
marketing. And that is to kindalet people off the hook that you
don't have to go do things thatfeel unnatural to you to be able
to develop and grow yourpractice.
Right? Right. You, in fact, it'snot going to be very effective.
(07:24):
And I think a lot of people getlocked into this idea of it has
to look a certain way. And Iknow this comes from this
traditional law firm mindset ofwhere we used to have to go to
networking meetings, and we hadto write articles and be
published and all this kind ofstuff.
What are you finding now in themarket, that some of the things
(07:45):
that lawyers are doing to standout and connect with potential
clients and bringing businessfor other firms? What types of
things are they doing?
Rose (07:54):
The activity that they're doing are really built around
credibility and authority. Andso, you know, as I mentioned
earlier, it has to resonate andfeel authentic to who you are
and how you practice law. ButI've really found building your
personal brand within thecontext of your firm is a big
help. And everybody does that adifferent way. LinkedIn, I feel
like it's still very powerfuland it's a great way to share
your firm message and yourindividual message.
(08:17):
But you don't have to alwayswrite content about your firm.
You can showcase the morepersonal aspects of your life
and create those connectionsonline that you do in the
personal world. Because when yougo to a networking event, you
don't only talk about the casesyou work on. You talk about your
family. You talk about yourhobbies.
You build a relationship. And sowhat we try to tell people is
when you're talking online andwhen you're talking offline,
(08:39):
what are the things thatresonate with you that you like
to talk about that help youbuild those relationships? And
so we try to infuse that in yourbio, infuse that in talking
points, help you use that whenyou send outreach messages to
potential clients or even toclients to check on them to see
how they're doing. Becauseeverybody wants to build a
relationship, whether it's legalor, you know, personal. I really
(09:00):
feel like what we do in thelegal space is very personal.
And so let's capitalize on that.And then let's make it feel
authentic to you. Another thingthat really helps is still the
the writing. Being in front ofpeople, whether it's through
email, through social media, orthrough that very strategic
thought leadership builds yourcredibility. It helps you show
(09:20):
up in search.
And it also sometimes helps youget your ideas around topics for
you to talk about offline. Iswhat we really like to recommend
is the legalese topics aregreat. The law review topics are
great, but those aren'tnecessarily the ones that people
are looking for to help themmake a buying decision. And so
how can we talk about the biggerpicture topics that resonate
with people as they make adecision on what law firm to go
(09:43):
to and how credible andauthoritative you are?
Davina (09:47):
Yeah. And I think this can be an a sticking point for a
lot of lawyers who have this,you know, idea that, I remember
when blogging was a thing. Mhmm.And a lot of lawyers would a
blog, and you would read whatthey're writing, and it's like a
legal brief. And I'm like,nobody wants to read this,
especially even other lawyersdon't wanna read it because, you
know, when you're scrollingsocial media, the last thing you
(10:10):
wanna do is get into this deeplegal analysis.
And, yeah, the lawyers are well,that shows my expertise, and
then I know what I'm talkingabout and the credibility. Have
you noticed a shift in thatmindset as particularly as
younger generations are cominginto the workforce and maybe
getting into rainmakingactivities? I think it's
starting. There's definitelystill this idea that you have to
(10:32):
be super technical to show yourability and your skill,
Rose (10:34):
But someone's talking to you knows you have the ability
and the skill. You are a goodlawyer. That should be table
stakes and it is table stakes ina lot of conversations. But
being able to speak business, tohave a personal conversation, to
not necessarily use legalese inevery marketing avenue, I think
is a benefit. And I I do see itstarting to to turn.
Davina (10:56):
Right. Right. So how how are older lawyers taking to
social media? What kinds ofthings are they struggling with?
And what kinds of things are youseeing that are going really
well?
Rose (11:11):
I think people always struggle about what to share
that's not work related. Becauseeveryone says, oh, LinkedIn is
only to showcase my wins and howgreat we're doing and promote
client deals and successes. Butyour firm culture, personal life
outside of work to a point, ofcourse, is what really does
resonate with people. What areyour experiences? What are your
(11:32):
opinions?
What are your thoughts oncurrent events, you know, within
reason that resonate with otherpeople that help you make those
connections and showcase who youare as a person. For the maybe
older generation of attorneysthat didn't ever have to use
LinkedIn and relied on more oftheir offline BD activities.
It's it sometimes is a mindsetshift. But those that embrace it
(11:54):
and understand that the worldlooks at the digital presence
now so much more than they usedto. They are seeing traction and
it is a win for them.
But it very much is a mindsetshift. I mean, for myself
talking about not just my work,but what I do outside of work
and what my thoughts andopinions are. It's hard and
doing it for yourself is hard.But once you get over that
(12:15):
initial hurdle, the ball doesstart to roll.
Davina (12:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I I struggle with that. I'm a I'm a Gen Xer,
and so and I really value myprivacy. So I really I agree.
I hear you. Yeah. I also came upin a culture where you didn't
talk about your personal beliefsand your personal life outside
of work. You were to leave thatoutside of work and you're
(12:38):
explicitly told leave thatoutside of Nobody cared what you
were doing other than if you didsomething that reflected
negatively on the firm, on thebusiness. Right?
So if there were pictures Imean, if there were pictures of
you out partying and they cameup on social media, I mean, that
was a negative sort of thing. SoI've noticed there's a real
(12:58):
shift. A lot of young lawyers,particularly starting their own
businesses, are putting theirwhole selves out there. I have a
client who, dances. She dances.
Rose (13:07):
Oh, cool.
Davina (13:08):
After, after hours, that's what she does for
hobbyists and she loves it. It'sa passion of hers. Dances in
heels. And so it's very sexydancing and she's very good at
it. And she puts that out thereand then she also puts out
content related to her, freeupsand divorce and her brands
(13:29):
around that.
And she says, you know, for her,it's about putting her whole
self out there so that peoplesee I'm a person, not just this
talking head lawyer who'stelling you what to do. And, and
for me that, you know, I look assomebody who was brought up in a
culture where that was theopposite. That's the opposite of
what you do. Yeah. But I see alot more lawyers are bracing
(13:52):
that and doing so successfully.
Yeah. I've got a client who gets98% of her business off social
media and her brand is singlemom attorney. And she developed
that as a showcase of shedeveloped that to develop
community when she was a singlemom going through law school and
it has grown into a huge brandand she's been able to open
(14:15):
multiple offices in her state asa result of the work doing that.
And for those of us who kindacame up in a law firm culture,
we look at that and go, oh mygosh. Are you kidding me?
I would never like put myselfout there that way. But it's so
it's kind of refreshing to seepeople doing this and becoming
so successful at it. And just tosee that mindset shift. What do
(14:37):
you tell people, like me who arelike, you know, I really don't.
I didn't really wanna share, youknow, that me playing with my
dog or hanging out with myhusband or going for like, my
life's not very exciting.
It's all reading and playingwith the dog.
Rose (14:49):
I think that's very exciting. Right? I know that's
very exciting.
Davina (14:53):
What do what do people like us do, who are you know? I
I certainly know with womenlawyers get older, people are
like, I don't wanna be oncamera. Are you kidding me?
Like, what do you how do youhelp them sort of overcome that
reluctance to be more visibleand share more of their personal
lives?
Rose (15:11):
I I would say it's baby steps. I mean, you're not gonna
go from sharing nothing tosharing pictures of yourself
dancing overnight. And so, whatare those milestones and what
are those smaller things thatare relatable that you might
think are boring, but otherpeople would love? Like you have
a dog and you're passionateabout, let's say, fostering
dogs. That's an amazing thing toshare.
(15:31):
That's personal, not superpersonal, but also very
relatable. So I think havingthat conversation and
understanding of what you love,what your passions are, what
other people talk about andwould find interesting and that
you would wanna talk about withthem too is where we like to
start.
Davina (15:47):
Yeah. I mean, I do think the there is this idea now that
everybody wants to feel likethey know somebody. And I think
one of the advantages of socialmedia, whatever platforms you're
on, is the know, like, and trustfactor kind of occurs, before
you even know people. And it's alittle creepy sometimes because
people are like, oh, you know, Ijust I know you so well. How's
(16:07):
your mother-in-law doing in inyour move to Colorado?
And you're like, oh, yeah. Iforgot I did talk about that on
the podcast. And then you knownothing about them. But, I it's
a very powerful whereas we usedto have to develop that know,
like, and trust after they hiredus. Mhmm.
You know? Now we have to developit. We developed it before, and
(16:29):
it makes the hiring piece a loteasier.
Rose (16:31):
Mhmm. Yeah. It does. And, you know, for a lot of business
owners, they have started theirown business. I'm sure this is
probably true for a lot of yourlisteners because they wanna
select and work with the clientsthey wanna work for.
And by putting your whole selfout there and being authentic in
your messaging on social media,it helps you attract those
people as well. And you don'thave to go to the extreme and
(16:52):
talk about very Politics.Politics. Exactly. I take the
words out of my mouth.
But you can talk about thingsyou're passionate about. Like,
if it's dog rescue or if it'sdance or if it's advocacy in
some other way shape or form oryour kids. I mean, all of these
things are relatable topotential clients to those in
your community. And one thing Ireally like to stress when we
(17:12):
think about content and socialmedia is the social part. Like,
it's turned into a big marketingmachine, which is great and it
does help.
But by being social, it helpsbuild that know, like, and trust
factor for the people get toknow you, wanna hire you before
knowing you, and maybe when theyonly sort of know you.
Davina (17:31):
Right. Right. Right. Currently, now, I'm binging on
content for from a realtor who'sin another state. But I'm
thinking I might invest in realestate in that and just hire her
because I love her so much andlove her content.
And I'm, I, I am looking at itgoing, man, how do I create this
kind of content? Part of it is Ilove her topic. Right? Oh yeah.
(17:52):
So I gravitate to that and I, Idon't, you know, wouldn't
couldn't talk about that topic,but it's she's so compelling as
a speaker and a person and soreal.
And Yeah. I could see how, youknow, like and I think a lot of
attorneys it used to be thatattorneys, and, and I still is
to some degree, particularlywith bigger law firms with male
(18:14):
attorneys. I know there's a lotof this idea that, like with
doctors, lawyers used to behere. We were the keeper and
holder of this claim ofknowledge that other people
didn't have. And so we werelooked at as these trusted
advisors on a, on a level where,you know, what my doctor says is
(18:36):
sacrosanct.
Well, my lawyer says issacrosanct. And now that's not
really how we're functioning inthe world. So much information
is available to people outthere. It really does come down
to kind of a personalrelationship more than this
going and putting your CV on thewebsite. Well, I went to Harvard
(18:56):
and I graduated here and I didthat.
And, you know, I'm on theseboards and all that. I remember
in the late nineties, we wereputting a lot of, we were
creating a lot of websites forlawyers and they were all like
that. They were all green andgold or blue and gold, and they
all had the every lawyer'sresume on there. And that was
(19:16):
the important thing. Are weseeing a shift in that now?
And what kinds of things are weseeing?
Rose (19:21):
Yeah. I I think the resume part is still important, but how
many people graduated fromHarvard? You know, how many
people have won this type oflitigation case? And I think
taking all that and blending itwith some of the more personal
is what we're starting to see inmore and more firm bios, big or
small. Because those personalfacts are really what connect
you to a client.
(19:43):
And what I've heard talking withclients is the feedback they get
from their clients is the biosthat are a little more personal
are the ones that are fun toread and the ones that help them
seal the deal and make theconnection with the prospect.
Because again, it's all aboutrelationships. And your firm
platform is very important andyou shouldn't disregard that,
But it's you still have a verypersonal, intimate relationship
(20:04):
with the client. So sometimesbeing a little bit vulnerable
does pay off to build that know,like, and trust factor.
Davina (20:11):
So have I don't know if you've worked with, smaller
firms, but one of the strugglesof small firm owners is a lot of
them are really good at buildingthe brand around their personal
identity, and they're the faceof the brand. Then they start
growing and they start hiringteam members. Then there's this
push pull of, I want to involvemore people and have this team
(20:34):
involved, but everybody wants tohire me. And so how do you help
them sort of overcome thatthrough their crafted identity
of their law firm and their teamand all that? What kinds of
things, what advice would youhave for people in that
situation?
Rose (20:50):
I think that's actually super common. What I tell people
is it comes down to values. Andso when you hire people and you
grow your team, oftentimes youhire people with a similar value
set and a similar skill set. Solike, while they may not be
getting you the owner of the lawfirm, they're getting someone
else that is a representation ofyou and your brand. And so that
they can rest assured and knowthat you've onboarded this
(21:13):
person.
They have the skill sets. Theyhold the same beliefs. They
reflect the firm's values, andthey'll be in just as good
hands. And you're also overhere. Should anything happen, it
won't, but you're all you'restill there.
And so you work as a team. Yousupport each other, and you're
all a reflection of what thefirm stands for from what you
built.
Davina (21:31):
Yeah. And how do you bring them into the visibility
piece of it? How do you bring inother team members to if you're
the face of the brand, whatkinds of things are you doing
with clients to help them getsome of the other lawyers on
their team to be a part of thatwithout appearing to be distinct
from them?
Rose (21:51):
Right. I I think a lot of it comes down to your strategy.
And so what are those values?And how do we infuse that
language in the content thatthey're creating both for your
firm, whether that's articles,blogs, what have you, podcasts,
or individual social media postson on LinkedIn or another
platform? And then also, taggingand talking and connecting with
each other on the platform toshow that you are a team.
(22:13):
You do work together. You sharesimilar ideas. But it it does
have to feel connected andcohesive. You can't have one
person talking about, you know,a and somebody else is talking
about w. It's gotta gotta worktogether in your plan.
Davina (22:28):
Yeah. You talk a lot about LinkedIn. I know that a
lot of my clients don't likeLinkedIn. They prefer Facebook.
And they say, well, I've beendoing Facebook attorney moms
groups.
Yep. Since 02/2007, I don't likeLinkedIn or I found Instagram to
be much more fun. Are we seeingthat? Because I know a lot of
(22:50):
people think of LinkedIn andthey think professional, and I
know we see that with a lot oflarger firms. Are we seeing that
a larger firm sort of alsocoming out on some of these
other social media sites, or isLinkedIn the place?
Rose (23:02):
So I I like LinkedIn. I feel like the algorithm is more
in favor of the person puttingcontent out there. You're gonna
get more views. You're gonna getmore interactions just because
of how meta Facebook, Instagramhas evolved over time. That's
not to say you shouldn't useFacebook and Instagram.
But for me, when I think aboutthe person coming to those
platforms and where their mindis, typically for Facebook and
(23:25):
Instagram, it's a more socialplatform. You wanna see what
people are doing. You wannaunderstand where they are,
what's happening in their livesor their work lives. And so what
we do is if you wanna have aspecific strategy for each
social channel, Facebook,Instagram are great to showcase
your people, your culture, andwhat you're doing in the
community. That gets a ton oftraction.
(23:47):
Or if you've been on a lawyermom group since 02/2007, you've
probably unknowingly been veryvulnerable, very personal, and
built those relationships andconnections that way. But those
that are just starting or wannathink about doing something
different, LinkedIn is shifting.It's no longer just your CV.
It's no longer just workupdates. People are sharing more
(24:07):
personal information.
And so being on there whensomeone is in more of a work
mind frame can be very helpfulfor an attorney building a book
of business.
Davina (24:16):
Okay. And, I mean, give me some sort of, insight into
the best way to sort of buildrelationships on LinkedIn
because I know there's a lot ofthis anybody who signed up for
LinkedIn knows that you sign up,and you're gonna get all these
inbox spamming things. Yeah.Yeah. People will get lost
trying to connect with youbecause you get so many.
(24:39):
So how do people use LinkedIn ina way to really build those
relationships if we're gettingif if it has this problem and it
does have this problem with
Rose (24:49):
Yeah. So I it's a I think it's about being social. So
social media, you have to have asocial component to it. And so
if you don't feel comfortableposting your own content,
comment on people's posts whosecontent aligns with your values,
with your work, with yourpassions. And so if someone else
is a another female mom lawyerposting about mom life in the
(25:11):
law firm, comment on that.
Send them a message. But whenyou comment on their post, it
doesn't show up in the inbox ofa whole bunch of spam that you
get. I understand I've beenapproached by probably like 12
VA companies this week alone.And that's wonderful and it
works for them and there's areason they do it. But if you're
there to build relationships andcommunity, you're gonna get that
more through interacting andengaging with people's posts and
(25:33):
then sending them a message.
But also making sure that yourprofile is optimized because
people do search on there forspecific individuals, law firm
services. So making sure thatyour headline, your about really
aligns with what you do, you'reeasy to find, and then it also
aligns with your website.
Davina (25:49):
Yeah. I think Sales Navigator is a a good tool that
LinkedIn has added where you canuse that tool to help you, sort
through kind of and look exactlywhat you're looking for. And I
know a lot of, our lawyers havebeen using that to help connect
with people for recruitingpurposes because Absolutely. You
(26:11):
know, they're they we also haveto approach recruiting in a lot
of the same way we recruit weapproach business development.
Mhmm.
And that you have to kind oflook from more of a relationship
standpoint, start buildingrelationships with people who
might know people who may belooking to make a change and
stuff like that. So they'restarting to use that kind of
tool in LinkedIn as well. Goback. Let's go back and talk
(26:36):
about your business. And I knowat the beginning you sort of,
told us the.
How you make that, how youbridge that gap. Right? But I'd
like to go in a little bit moredetail because I know a lot of
may not understand what, youknow, communications are and
what strategic plans are, youknow, and how that all fits
(26:56):
together. Right? Because we areapproached as lawyers, we're
approached by a lot of companieswho say, I'm a marketing
company.
Yeah. A marketing company couldbe selling us Google ads. They
could be selling us social mediaservices just for Instagram.
They could be so I really wantedpeople to get clear, on exactly
what are what you do so thatthey can understand the services
(27:18):
you provide. I think what'sunique about what you do is that
if you've come up in theprofessional services
businesses, you know that thereare business developers or
rainmakers within a business.
And then there are marketingfolks who kind of do a lot of
implementing and things likethat. Right? So there's
different levels, marketingcoordinators and marketing
managers and marketing directorsand business developers and ring
(27:40):
makers, and there's alldifferent kinds of names for
different things. So if youcould provide some clarity on
how you fit into that picture, Ithink you're gonna help people.
Rose (27:49):
Sure. Sure. So I've had the privilege in my career of
doing both. And I really thinkto do both well, you have to do
both together. You can't have abusiness development plan to
figure out what you're gonnatalk about, who you're gonna go
after, how you're gonna approachpeople separate and apart from
how you talk about yourself.
And that's really what marketingcommunications is, is how do you
talk about yourself online? Andso what we do is we help you if
(28:11):
you don't already have one.Figure out what is your
strategy. Who are your targetclients? What is your audience
worried about?
What are the pain points thatyou solve for them? And once you
really clearly understand thatand you know where they are
offline and how you're gonnaconnect with them in that way,
you've got your businessdevelopment strategy. But the
first thing anybody does whenyou meet them offline or they're
(28:32):
referred to you by anothercolleague or friend is they
Google you. And so they're gonnalook at your firm bio. They're
gonna look at your firm website.
They're gonna look at anycontent that you've authored.
They're going to look at yourLinkedIn profile most of the
time too. And so we like to makesure that that is all shored up
as well. And it aligns withwhat's being said offline and
even ladders back up anotherlevel to your firm strategy.
(28:55):
Because your personal businessdevelopment strategy should tie
to your firm strategy becauseeverybody wants to grow.
And so when we all grow, it'swhat's the saying rising tides
lifts all boats. Yeah. And so wewanna make sure that that
happens. And what we do on theonline part is we really like to
look at your SEO because someonecan Google your name and it can
show up with all of this we do.But sometimes they forget who
(29:16):
you are and they just know, ohmy god, was referred to this
really specialized biotechpatent attorney in North Dakota
who focuses on this.
And so how do we make sure thatthe content that we produce not
only positions you to align withwhat you've said about yourself
and what people have said aboutyourself and what your website
says about you, but it shows upwhen people are looking for the
(29:38):
services that you provide. Andso by combining those three
areas, we really set you up tobe successful, to make those
connections, to build thattrust, and to build the
authority and the credibility.
Davina (29:49):
Right. Right. So really, once you help them do the deep
work of Mhmm. Your core values,your ideal client, where they
hang out, then you're helpingthem work on that messaging,
which
Rose (29:59):
really takes it
Davina (30:00):
down to that level of what a cohesive message of what
we're putting out there.
Rose (30:05):
Right.
Davina (30:05):
And, so from a practical standpoint, are you working on
if you're doing SEO, are youworking on developing websites
and doing SEO, or are youlooking at SEO of other types of
content and making sure thereare keywords, or what kind of
things are you doing there?
Rose (30:22):
All of the above. Okay. So we can help with websites. We
can also help you create thecontent. So so many times
attorneys just don't have timeto do it.
It's a nice to have for them,not a need to have, but really
it's a need to have, when peopleare looking for you. So we can
go straight the content. It'ssuper easy. We interview you
usually at one of the morebroader topics, not a very
(30:44):
in-depth case, analysis or legalbrief type article. And write
the content, work with you,optimize it for SEO.
So look at those keywords thatpeople are searching for. Make
sure they're in there. And thendo some more technical stuff on
the back end, to make sure youshow up in search. And make sure
that your message is resonatingand being found by the people
that need to find you. Becauseif you are not doing that, your
(31:07):
competitor's doing that.
So we want you to be in controlof your brand and your brand
story, and what's being foundonline should be dictated by
you, not by someone else.
Davina (31:16):
Right. Right. Do you have pushback from attorneys who
say, you're a non attorney. Howcan you write for me? Of course.
Rose (31:25):
Of course.
Davina (31:25):
How do you respond to that?
Rose (31:27):
I can say, well, I have lived and breathed legal for so
many years. The people that workon our team have legal
experience as well. I think Butmy
Davina (31:36):
special my special edit area. I know.
Rose (31:39):
I get it.
Davina (31:39):
Nobody else does.
Rose (31:41):
I get it. But how we do ghost written content is it's
based on an interview. Superpainless. We look at what people
are looking for in the internetrelated to what you do, And then
we pick a topic based on thosekeywords or that idea. And we
ask you a whole bunch ofquestions about it.
And then we come back to youwith an article that's done for
you to say, yes, this looksgreat. No, tweak this word, that
(32:02):
word, the other word. It's verypainless. And it helps get your
name out there, the firm's nameout there, and it helps you show
up in search and kinda controlyour message. Right.
Right. You can then use that forclient emails and for social
media. So it's really a a verygood way to do something once
and use it a gajillion times.
Davina (32:21):
Right. Good. So do we have to be on video? Because I
know this comes up a lot forpeople who are like and and I
don't know if you've experiencedit, but I've experienced some
people that no matter Yes. I hada client one time who was so
great when she was talkingspontaneously, but the minute
you put a front a camera infront of her, she went into
(32:41):
attorney mode, very and it wasvery robotic kind of thing.
She just froze up. And she hadthe most compelling personality
when she was just talking. Therewas no camera in the room. So
what do you think? Because we'rehearing
Rose (32:55):
a lot
Davina (32:56):
of of marketers out there saying, you really
everybody needs to be on videonow. That's what we need to be
doing. What are where do youland on that spectrum? I think
that
Rose (33:04):
goes back to what we talked about earlier and finding
what feels authentic and genuineto you. If you don't wanna do
video and it doesn't land withyou, don't do video is what I
tell people. If it's better todo shorter content on LinkedIn,
let's do that. If we're gonnahave a firm focus for a specific
area to show up for search andreally push for growth, let's do
(33:25):
that. If you love video and youwanna talk, let's figure out how
to do video for you.
So I I think it really has totie back to not only the firm
strategy with what you're doing,but at the individual attorney
level, it it has to be what'scomfortable for you. Because if
you make a video and you youawkward in it and you hate doing
every second of it, it's notgonna land with your your target
audience.
Davina (33:45):
Yeah. Yeah. I recently had something. So I've been
doing this podcast for sixyears, and I've done a lot of
videos. But I I recently wasexperimenting with something,
and they wanted me to write ascript and, do this presentation
with a script.
And I had somebody else who'slistening to it. I'm like, you
know, and script just isn'tthere. Like, oh my god. Yes,
Devina. Never use a script.
(34:05):
Just talk about things. Like,this is not you at all. And I
think it's really, important towe're not gonna change our
personalities No. In to domarketing. We really have to
find a way to work within ourpersonality Yeah.
In a place that fits. But Ialways tell people, like, there
(34:26):
are so many options out therenow for marketing. It used to
be, like, you had to go tonetworking events, and you had
rubber chicken dinners, and youhad to buy the corporate tables.
Rose (34:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Davina (34:36):
All of these things. Absolutely. That that's why
small firms couldn't get a lotof traction because it was they
were going to chamber meetings,you know? Yeah. Right.
And even the chamber was dividedinto like, here are the really
legitimate people and here arethe small potatoes over here.
Right? And so now it's with theinternet, with social media,
(34:56):
like it's really leveled theplaying field. Just thinking
back when we were doingwebsites, starting out, you, a,
a, a small firm can put up awebsite even more amazing than
what a big firm had. Yeah.
And you, you would see people'screativity come through and
their, how they differentiatedthemselves would come through.
Yeah. And so I'm that excitesme, and I think we're getting a
(35:18):
lot more of that. Let's talkabout AI for a minute. Oh, yeah.
What are your what are yourthoughts on AI? What do you have
you encountered, people say,well, I could use AI for that.
Or have you said, you know, howcan we use AI in our business to
help our clients better? Right.Right.
What kinds of things, thoughtsdo you have around AI?
Rose (35:40):
I have a love hate relationship with AI. Okay. I I
think if you use AI as it is,it's terrible. I tell people AI
is a great starting point,terrible ending point. And so I
if you don't use it to help withyour efficiency in some way
shape or form, you have a screwloose.
But I don't think you can relysolely on it. People have become
(36:02):
very aware of AI. And so whatcomes out of chat GPT,
perplexity, Claude, you can readit and based on sentence
structure, you know, triggerwords, you know that it's AI. So
I tell people, please don't dothat because it it sometimes
does more harm than good. Youknow, the rocket ship emoji.
It it's like a telltale sign forme. But use it to help you
(36:24):
brainstorm. Use it to figure outa calendar. Use it to put
together an outline and thenflush it out yourself. Because
when you do that, you add thathuman emotional experience story
into your content that you willnever get using AI.
No matter how good you programit, you won't have it. So Mhmm.
And that's the stuff that reallybuilds the relationships is the
(36:45):
the more vulnerable, the morepersonal. Like, AI can't talk
about the specific details thatyou did with a client that would
relate to another client about acase. And that's the interesting
stuff.
Yeah. So I know I I like it, butI don't love it.
Davina (37:01):
Yeah. It's interesting because I've used it recently
for something, and it workedreally well. But then I was
thinking about my I just thisyear started this monthly
newsletter, and I've beenremiss, and and March has not
been the best consistency monthfor me. But April there'll be
another one in April. And, I wasthinking about my newsletter, I
was thinking, really can't useAI for my newsletter in because
(37:22):
of the way that I write mynewsletter.
My newsletter is very personal.Me sharing personal story in
that or personal stories of myclients. And I was thinking, how
could I use AI for this? And AIis a great tool in a lot of
ways, but for what I want toaccomplish, that I was, I was, I
was thinking about that going,how would I use this? What could
(37:45):
I do that get part of the workdone for me?
And then I could go in and sortof put my own personal touch on
it. So I think, I know that alot of attorneys are embracing
AI. I've been asking a lot ofquestions about that lately
among my colleagues, and a lotof them really are loving it.
Like, it's front leading edge,and they're using it in a lot of
(38:06):
ways in their law firm toincrease efficiencies. And then
I'm also members of all thesecopywriter communities.
And my copywriter friends aregoing, oh my god. No. Like,
years of the work that we'vedone to be able to be such
persuasive copywriters. And thenwe're seeing people just go, oh,
well, Lily, we can just use AIfor that. And you're like, no.
It's really not the same thing.So I definitely, definitely
(38:29):
agree with you on that. Beforewe wrap up today, could you
share with, our audience ofwomen law firm owners maybe, two
or three pieces of advice, goldnuggets, so they can go away
with when it comes to not onlydeveloping their brand strategy,
but actually, getting their messtheir unique differentiators out
(38:53):
in the world. Because I think alot of lawyers struggle to say,
well, how am I different fromthe lawyer down the street who's
also offering estate planningservices or or whatever? So what
kinds of things do you tell themto help pull that out of them?
Rose (39:10):
The first thing I say is don't aff don't be excuse me.
Don't be afraid to be yourself.And I think that's really what
sets so many of us apart. No onehas our experiences. No one has
done the work we've done.
No one looks at the world theway that we do. And so how do we
take those things and marry themand put them out into the world
in a way that is trulyreflective of who you are. But
(39:30):
if you are a bright bold person,let's use bright bold language
and bright bold colors. If youare a more conservative
individual, let's make sure thatthat's reflective in your
language and who you are. Andyou're going to attract the
people and the businesses thatalign with that.
And those ideally, for many ofthe law firm owners, are the
ones you want to work withanyway. So I I always say lean
into who you are and embrace it.And I know it can feel very
(39:53):
scary to do that because it's alevel of openness and
vulnerability that most of usare not used to. But doing so
really does pay off enormously.
Davina (40:01):
Right. Right. I think that's great advice. Alright. So
how can we connect with you ifwe wanna connect with you and
find out more about craftedidentities?
Rose (40:09):
Reach out to me on LinkedIn, Rose Moran, or send me
a note on my website. My emailis also it's easy. It's
Rose@CraftedIdentities.com.Wonderful.
Davina (40:18):
Thank you so much, Rose, for
Rose (40:20):
being here.
Davina (40:20):
I really enjoyed our conversation. I always love to
talk shop with fellow marketers.So me too. Great.
Rose (40:26):
Alright. Yeah.
Davina (40:27):
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Intro (40:30):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
Wealthywealthywomanlawyer.com tolearn more about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
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