April 3, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, I sit down with Stacy Ennis, a best-selling author, book coach, and speaker on a mission to help leaders harness the power of their story. With a background in publishing, ghostwriting, and editorial leadership, Stacy brings a deep understanding of what it takes to not only write a book—but use it as a vehicle for transformation.
We explore what makes book writing a personal growth journey, how it can elevate your brand, and why authorship is a powerful strategy for attorneys looking to amplify their impact. We even get into how AI is affecting the world of book writing and why Stacy believes human-led storytelling still reigns supreme.
Whether you’ve been sitting on an idea for years or are just beginning to imagine yourself as an author, this conversation will get you thinking—and inspired to take that next step.
Don’t miss it!
Go here to listen:
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To learn more about Stacy and her work, visit stacyennis.com or connect with her on LinkedIn or Instagram.
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Ready to scale your law firm and build a practice that aligns with your values? Book a call with Davina.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
Davina (00:05):
if
Intro (00:05):
you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
(00:25):
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
(00:48):
here's Devina.
Davina (00:49):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealth to
Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm yourhost, Devina Frederick, and my
guest today is Stacy Ennis.Stacy is a bestselling author,
book coach, and speaker on amission to help other leaders
clarify their ideas and harnesstheir unique story to make an
impact. Her background includesinvolvement in the creation of
more than a hundred books in herfifteen plus years in
(01:11):
publishing, ghostwriting for aNobel Prize winner in medicine,
and leading as an executiveeditor of Sam's Club's Healthy
Living Made Simple, apublication that reached more
than 11,000,000 readers. Stacy'swork and writing have been
featured in Yahoo, Inc, Insider,Publishers Weekly, Katie Couric,
and on the TEDx stage.
(01:32):
Stacy is also the host of thepodcast Beyond Better and holds
a master's in writing andediting from the University of
Cincinnati. Please join me inwelcoming Stacy Ennis to the
Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.Hi, Stacy. Welcome to the
Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.
Stacy (01:47):
Hi, Davina. Thanks so much for having me.
Davina (01:50):
I am glad to have you here. So we you and I were
talking before the call, and youare in Portugal.
Stacy (01:55):
Yeah. It's in the South. It's sunny and beautiful here
today.
Davina (01:59):
I I know a lot of women lawyers law firm owners have a
dream of living and working inanother country outside The US.
What is your what has been yourexperience? You've been doing
this for a while now.
Stacy (02:13):
Yeah. I mean, I started my business in 02/2009. And when
I started it, I I had thisvision of being able to move my
business around the world withme. I didn't know at the time
that I was building a locationindependent business. There that
didn't really exist as a term,but that's what I've built.
Mhmm. And it's pretty incredibleto have that freedom to be able
(02:38):
to move. Actually, a lot ofpeople have more freedom than
they realize to be able to livelocation independent. But this
is our fourth country outside ofThe US, and I feel like I've
grown so much in every differentculture that I've lived in.
Yeah.
I just feel like I've I'vereally gotten to experience the
world, which has beenincredible.
Davina (02:59):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a different experience, imagine,
than just going on vacationsomeplace because you're really
immersed into the daily livingof that culture. But tell us
about this business that youhave that is an independent
location independent business.That's what we're here to talk
about today.
So tell us about that.
Stacy (03:18):
Yeah. I'm a book coach, so I help authors on their
journey of writing their book.And I I say journey specifically
because I do see the bookwriting process as a journey. I
approach it a little bitdifferently than other people in
my in my area. Because a lot oftimes when people go to write a
book, they will come acrossmessaging around getting it done
(03:40):
fast.
Get it done in thirty days orsixty days and get it to market.
And they're often taken througha process that is not very fun,
not very transformative. And atthe end of it, sometimes will
come out with a book thatthey're they're proud of, but
not deeply proud of. It iscertainly not shelf stable. It's
(04:03):
not a sustainability tool fortheir business.
Mhmm. And so the work that I dois really centered on book
strategy and book coaching. Sohelping people unearth the
messaging, unearth the storiesthat that really need to be
central to how they share theirmessage. And then really embark
(04:24):
on a a journey of deepintrospection that helps them
not only craft a book that willstand the test of time and
really help them build theirbrand or their movement or their
business, whatever the thing isthat they're looking to build.
But we'll also take them on apersonal growth journey along
the way, which is which isreally cool and a really
(04:44):
exciting part of what I get todo.
Davina (04:47):
That's so interesting. So how long does it usually take
for people to working with youto write a book?
Stacy (04:53):
When I coach authors, it takes six months. So I have a
six month process that I takeauthors through. We spend about
a month to a month and a half onthe ideation and outlining
process. And for anyonelistening that's thinking about
writing a book, probably,especially for lawyers, you have
a million ideas and they'realways just kind of buzzing
(05:14):
through your head. And sometimesyou just kinda wish you could
reach out into the sky and grabthem all together and somehow
give order to it.
So the process that I takepeople through starts with
really wide messy ideation Andthen slowly refines into a
really detailed book outline.And then from there we spend
(05:35):
about four and a half to fivemonths in the draft, in the
draft phase. And I have to say Ilove working with attorneys
because y'all are great writersand you have also honed that
skill. So it's a really niceit's a really nice area of
practice to come into bookwriting because you already have
(05:56):
a skill of writing. You alreadyhave a practice of writing
typically through your work.
Where I see the lawyers that Iwork with really evolve is
through tapping into theirauthentic voice and really
getting to bring some of theirunique uniqueness into it. And
maybe it's humor. Maybe it's alittle bit of sass. Maybe it's
(06:19):
energy. May you know, whateverit is.
So we end up focusing on that alot in the writing process over
the over that six month journey.
Davina (06:28):
Yeah. Yeah. That's you you talk about, book writing as
a growth journey. Tell me alittle bit more about how it
helps us as a growth journey.
Stacy (06:41):
In our everyday lives, we are our attention is pulled
outward so much. Right? From themoment we wake up, typically,
it's often pulled to ourscreens. And all day long, we
are pulled outward to ourfamily, to our, you know,
clients, to whoever it is thatthat demands our attention. And
if it's not there, it's usuallyon something else.
(07:02):
It's on something that's pullingour attention. A book requires
focus and it requires deepintrospection, which requires
time and silence. And then fromthat space, you have to then
translate that into somethingthat other people will be
impacted by and will be able touse in whatever way you want
(07:24):
them to use it, whether it's tobe changed by the story or to
implement the thing, whateverthat is. And if if for nothing
else than that, the fact thatyou are deeply introspective for
a long period of time, for sure,that is huge. But the other
piece of it that I'd say is soimportant is that this is a huge
(07:47):
life goal for so many people.
And there is a confidence and areal anchoring in your own
expertise and your own valuethat you have to offer the world
that comes about through thisprocess of really author status
of stepping into that authorstatus. And stepping into that
space of authorhood happens overtime. It happens as you start
(08:09):
the ideation process and as youwrite the draft. And I've talked
about those six months,certainly have longer after that
to get it to market. But thereis something that happens
through that journey of goingthrough all of these steps and
realizing this big huge goal andthen arriving at this new place
(08:30):
that really does allow you tolevel up.
And it's not necessarily I mean,there is, of course, there's
outward signs of that, but Ithink a lot of it really is
mindset related and how you showup in your work.
Davina (08:43):
Mhmm. That's that's interesting that you say that.
I've written two books. And,what amazed me about the process
is the first one was a lot moredifficult than the second one.
And it's it for for me, Irealized by the time it was
(09:05):
done, by the time it waspublished, and I was talking
about it, and it was out there,I had grown so much beyond that
book.
And I think that's another piecethat's kind of interesting when
you you write a book is that youit's part of your growth journey
as well. And then you sort of goto that next level after you've
(09:27):
kind of put that out there. And,and I, and, and it's a little
bit like, oh yeah, I read thisbook. It's, you know, it's out
there. Read it.
It's good. But I'm like overhere now. And, but I have to
remember that there are peoplewho don't even have the
knowledge that I share in thatbook. And I think that's one of
the, that's one of the,illuminating things about
(09:50):
writing books too, is that you,with each one, you sort of go
you get that out. And now mybooks were a little bit more of
a they're practical guides.
So a a lot less we were talkingabout a Rivi Vargas Vargas on
the show earlier. She was on theshow earlier, she's one of your
authors. And her book was a lotof It was about burnout, and it
(10:13):
was a lot of exploration of herown experience with burnout, and
then how she now coaches peoplein dealing with burnout. And I
think, when you talk aboutthought leadership, that really
comes through in a in a booklike hers when she's talking
about this really personalexperience of how you know? And
(10:34):
you get the sense.
This is a real emotional journeyfor her and awakening for her.
Can you give me some examples ofother authors that are attorneys
who've written books for you andkind of what sort of topics they
tackle? Because I think this isa question a lot of lawyers are
asking. Should I write, youknow, a book about this area of
the law? Should I write it withan eye toward other lawyers as
(10:57):
an audience?
Should I write it with an eyetoward, you know, by prospective
clients as an audience? What isthe approach that you help
people take to sort of figurethat out?
Stacy (11:08):
Well, first of all, I love that you shared your
experience because I knowthat'll be really helpful for
listeners who are thinking aboutwriting a book themselves. And
certainly there is that elementof capturing the book, the right
book for right now, but thenthere's another right book for
right now. And, that's what Icall a catalyst book. So what I
what I'm helping authors thinkabout, how how do I figure out
(11:31):
what book to write? Becauseagain, when I'm meeting people,
there's usually two sides.
One is I wanna write a book. Ireally don't know what I wanna
write about, but I know it's agoal and I need to figure out
what that's about. Okay. Thenthe other side is I wanna write
a book. Here are my 10 ideas.
And I think I can fit them allin one book. And here's how I'm
thinking about it. And so whatwe're often trying to find
(11:54):
together is first we aredefining their vision. So we're
starting with, okay, I'm heretoday and here's my big vision
for impact. I only work withimpact makers.
I work with people who areputting good into the world and
they have a mission and amessage that is beyond the book.
The book is a tool for them. NowI'm also deep I have deep
(12:20):
respect for books. So I alsobelieve in putting great books
out into the world. But theclients that I work with they
believe in both.
They see I wanna write the bestbook I can write and that I'm
proud of. And I know that thisbook is a tool that's gonna help
me achieve my big vision. So ifwe look at that trajectory, I'm
(12:41):
here today and here's my liketen plus year vision of what I
wanna do in the world. Sometimesit's really clear. Sometimes
it's a little fuzzier, but atleast we know what the the
mission element usually is.
We have an idea of that. There'sprobably, you know, at least two
or three books. Maybe for somepeople there's like five plus
books along this line for themthat could extend well well into
(13:04):
their future. We don't need toknow what all those books are.
We'll probably get some ideasabout them.
But we just needed to find whatis that book for right now that
is moving you toward that futurevision that you see for
yourself. And so we start there.We start with the vision. And
(13:24):
then we work through theideation process that I talked
about a little bit earlier. AndI also teach them about the
different types of bookstructures.
So we explore, are you writing anarrative book? Is this really
anchored to your personal story?Are you writing more of a
prescriptive how to book? Thoseare very different books. You're
it sounds like the one that youwrote is the two that you wrote
(13:47):
are more in that category.
Are you writing a big idea bookor maybe kind of a big idea
narrative blend? So we'relooking at how do these
interact? How does your storyplay big? Or is it an kind of
underpinning? Are we bringing inother stories?
How story heavy is this? Sowe're starting to explore some
(14:09):
of those elements to it. And weanswer those questions based on
the vision and what you arebuilding from the book. There's
a lot to it, of course, but I'dsay that that's the core of it.
That's where we start.
Davina (14:23):
Right. Right. Do you have any, examples of
Stacy (14:27):
Oh yes.
Davina (14:27):
You. Yeah.
Stacy (14:29):
Thank you for teeing that back up. Cause I I, when I took
in your I had like all of theselayers.
Davina (14:33):
Oh, you have all the I know this a lot. I usually ask
compound questions too, whichare
Stacy (14:38):
Yeah. So I think I'll start with, Otto V. Otto V
Vargas, is just an amazing humanand I think a really lovely
example for your listeners to goback and listen to the episode
that you did with her.
Davina (14:52):
Is read the book.
Stacy (14:54):
Yes. Yes. Of course. Of course. Yes.
Davina (14:56):
Read the book as well.
Stacy (14:57):
But her book's called Your Time to Rise. It just came
out recently earlier this year.And I think Adovi is a great
example of somebody who had theexperience as a coach and the
personal experience as a humanbeing. And in her book she was
able to bring in her story. Andalso when you're a coach or
(15:18):
you're you're in an area ofexpertise, it's really important
if you are using an you'rewriting an expert positioning
book that is really meant toelevate your position within
your industry that you'rebringing in those other stories.
And so she did a really nice jobof bringing in examples of
clients and painting those thosepictures throughout, know, as
(15:41):
she's as she wrote the book. Andfor her, now she's really early
still in her launch, but she dida really nice job, I think
building behind the scenes. Soshe built a lot of excitement
around the book. Executed everysingle step. So she was really
thoughtful in who she hired asan editor.
(16:01):
Who she worked with as apublisher. Her cover design. Her
cover is beautiful and it fitsperfectly with her her brand
presence. And the result of allof this is that she was able to
really elevate her brandimmediately as this and actually
even before the book wasreleased because she started
including the book oneverything. Right?
(16:22):
As soon as the cover was done.So I think she's a really lovely
example. Another example I canthink of is a client named Joel
Perez. Now he's not an attorney,but he is a DEI consultant. And
when we met, he was working onhis book to help grow his
consulting and coaching practiceas as a DEI coach.
(16:43):
He wrote a a book called DearWhite Leader, which is a very
disruptive title.
Davina (16:48):
Oh, wow.
Stacy (16:49):
Yeah. A very brave title, I think, and was very purposeful
in purposeful in choosingsomething that would garnish
gain attention. And for him,that book actually, like Adarvi,
I didn't say this, but verysimilarly, Adarvi has already
really been on so many stages asa keynote. Joel as well. He has
(17:11):
had so many speakingopportunities.
I feel like every time I talkwith him, he's en route to
another speaking opportunity ora workshop. He's just really
driven the demand for his work.I'll give one more quick
example. This is a financialexpert. Her name is Giovanna
Gonzales.
And she already had a followingon social. So she's a little bit
(17:35):
of a different example for thatreason. But for her, she was an
influencer that really wanted toshe she was an influencer, but
because she was legitimate. Youknow, she knew what she was
talking about. And she reallywanted to build in this other
kind of layering to how sheshowed up in the world and offer
really kind of move into thisthought leadership space, which
(17:58):
she deserved to be in.
But sometimes with thatinfluencer title, you don't
always get the same, I think,credibility maybe in people's
eyes. And so she wrote this bookthat has hit multiple bestseller
lists. She's now it's now usedin curriculum at the University
of Illinois. She four x'd herspeaker fee. And she's also
(18:20):
grown new revenue streams in herbusiness as a result of that.
Again, Joel did the same thing.Really good at early marketing.
So a lot of people make amistake of waiting until the
book is nearly out. And youstart marketing that baby the
second you start writing it. Whynot?
Right? It's an opportunity to tostart establishing that status.
Davina (18:41):
Yeah. I think where a lot of people get scared about
that is they say, well, I'mdoing this project, but I don't
know if I'll finish it, if itwill see the light of day. And
so I don't wanna put it outthere and start talking about it
till it's actually a realconcrete thing. And I think it
takes a certain level ofconfidence to, to put things out
(19:02):
there and say, this is my dreamand I'm working on it and making
it come true. And, you know, I,I I'll social media has made it.
So I think a lot more people aresharing those, their journey in
the process a lot more than theyused to. You know, you we're
always seeing people, you know,I bought a house. I'm renovating
(19:23):
it. And then they're sharingthat whole process with you, the
good, the bad, and the ugly. Andso I think we start to see that
with a lot more authors too asthey're they're going out.
They're putting it out there.They're going, I'm doing this
thing, and they're sharing thejourney with you as they're
doing it. And I think that takesa certain amount of bravery to
do that because I also know somany people who have pieces and
(19:43):
parts of books that they've hadfor years that have never made
it, which is where I think agood book coach comes in. I had
a book coach, with for me withboth of my books and a team that
helped helped to do the coversand all that kind of stuff. So
talk to me about what one of thethings I wanna discuss with you
(20:05):
is AI, Because I think a lot oflawyers right now are talking
about artificial intelligenceand how to use them in their
practice.
And one of the big I'm I'm amember of the lawyer community,
obviously, but I'm also a memberof the copywriter community. I'm
a lot I'm in a lot ofcopywriting groups because I'm a
(20:26):
trained copywriter and have adegree in writing. And it the
copywriters in the world arelooking at going, okay. Well,
how do we keep working in theface of AI? I imagine that
people who are talking to peopleabout writing a book also are
having to think about are arethe are the authors going to
(20:50):
want to use AI?
How is that going to impact whatwe're doing? That kind of thing.
Have you had those thoughts? Andwhat have you done about it?
Stacy (21:01):
Yeah. I love I love talking about AI because I have
a very hopeful viewpoint aroundAI. I did wanna I'm gonna come
back in just a sec. I did wannajust piggyback on what you said
about the bravery of sharing.And I think that is a really
nice point to make thatsometimes when you're in a big
(21:21):
big hairy project, feels huge.
It feels overwhelming. Andsometimes you also don't know
how to do it. So then announcingthat you're doing something can
feel maybe foolish sometimes.You're like, I don't really know
if I'm gonna get done or how.And I I love your point about
coaching.
I think whether you have a pureaccountability person, you have
(21:43):
a coach like me, or whatever itis, having that built in
accountability makes a hugedifference. But also bear in
mind that your online communitygets to be your accountability,
which will drive you to itactually is really motivating
when people start asking youabout your book. So I would just
encourage anybody that's like alittle bit of the way in to
(22:03):
consider if they'd be willing toannounce it because it does
drive does like light a fireunder you a little bit.
Davina (22:09):
There's pressure too. I had, I had someone say to me,
you've been talking about thisbook for years.
Stacy (22:16):
Yep. And I was like, yeah, I guess I'm gonna get it
done. I do something new. New.
Davina (22:21):
Had pieces and parts of books, you know, and, to have
that push. I had a coach that,you know, helped sort of push
the first one. And it's and it'snot, like I said, when you know,
once I did the book, I was like,is that the book that I really
wanted to write?
Stacy (22:37):
I don't
Davina (22:38):
know at the time, but that's at the time it was
though, when I first started it.And then number of years went by
before I got finished with it.And that's, that's, that's where
I think the, we talk about theprocess of getting things done
quickly when something occurs toyou, because that's where you
are now. Whereas if you sort oflet it drag on, you're evolving
and changing, and then you'regoing back to that book and
(23:01):
trying to finish it. It'sharder.
You're somebody who's been theredone that. It's harder because
you're like, oh, I'm kind ofover this now. You know?
Stacy (23:09):
Yeah. And the momentum is hard to re to restart. So I'm
glad you added that. That'sgood. Okay AI.
So I love to talk about thisbecause I firmly believe that at
some point we are going to havea creative renaissance. I don't
know when that's gonna happen.But I believe that the work that
(23:29):
I do and other practitionersthat are at a extremely high
level, highly trained, will behugely valued and hugely in
demand. I think our pendulum'sgonna have to swing and swing
back. That's okay.
That's just my prediction. WhereI get a little worried or a lot
worried is that we're missing atraining level to get to
(23:51):
mastery. So where I see AI as aproblem is in critical thinking,
in development of craft. And soI worry that our next generation
of writers are gonna miss out onsome of what I went through to
develop mastery in my craft. Andmastery quote unquote, I mean
(24:12):
we're all in a work in progressbut you know Always same thing.
Don't really like reach masteryI don't think. With my
perspective on AI and I actuallyhad my legal contracts redone
about a year ago with a littleAI clause in there. I do not use
(24:36):
generative AI. I will not workwith people who use generative
AI in their books and that is inmy legal agreements. I think
that AI is a great tool for asI've heard it the term used as a
thought as thoughts.
What did they say? Sparringpartner. A thought sparring
partner. And so it's, I thinkit's a great tool to help you
(25:00):
with like your initial layer ofresearch or help you think
through a stuck point or, youknow, give you a different
perspective. Or if you're reallystuck on a metaphor, can go in
and get some ideas.
The metaphors are usually prettybad by the way from AI, but it's
a tool. Right. And where I havehad to step away from potential
(25:23):
industry partnerships or realizethat somebody is just not the
client for me is when they seeit as a replacement for their
own critical thinking and theirown thought leadership is
leadership of thoughts. You haveto think. Right.
To be a thought leader. And soyou cannot replace that. There
(25:44):
is no shortcut to to reachingthat true thought leadership.
Now you can look like a thoughtleader through fancy branding
but that's gonna fall flat whenyou get into a real life
scenario where you need to speakabout your area of mastery, area
of expertise and thoughtleadership. So I think it's a
(26:05):
great tool.
I think that I don't feel anysense of threat in my specific
area because I work with peoplewho value this and who, really
wanna put meaningful work intothe world. There are tons of
(26:25):
people out there who are, youknow, following different
methods to write their book anda different philosophy than I
have about the process. Andthat's okay. We're all
different. We can all do thingsdifferently.
But I think in the niche thatI've chosen to focus and you
know our our number one criteriawhen I have somebody that
(26:46):
reaches out about their project,the first question I ask is, is
this book putting good into theworld? That's number one. Has to
be a yes. I that necessitates apurposefulness to somebody's
whole existence in their work,in their mission. You know?
So I don't know if that was likea very specific answer, but
(27:09):
that's my
Davina (27:10):
That was a good answer. And I and I I know that every
all all the lawyers up listeningto this are sending you little
heart emojis right now becauseof that you got your contracts
redone to include AI language.That's something that a lot of
people aren't thinking aboutwith, AI, and how does it impact
my business, and should I beaddressing that in my contract?
(27:30):
So that was very interesting tohear you say that. Also, that
leads me though to this kind ofthought about ghost writers.
So as someone who has written myown books, be they good or bad,
right? And there are people whowill, you know, I criticize
(27:51):
them, right? I look back on themand I go, oh, you know, I had a
terrible proofreader for thefirst one and mistakes got
through, you know, stuff likethat. And I'm a different person
now, all those things, but Iwrote them. And so it always
kind of is a little bitoffensive to me for people to
say, I wrote a book and theydidn't write the book.
Somebody else wrote the book,but it's their story or their
(28:14):
words, and that's ghostwriting.And a lot of people do that. So
it's a little AI might be alittle bit like ghostwriting
when we think of the future. Andas AI develops more and more and
more, we'd have might have moreand more people use it as their
ghostwriter. Right now, don'tthink it's there, but I can see
(28:35):
a day where it might get there,where you might start having,
you know, people like, you know,Donald Trump didn't write the
art of the deal.
Somebody wrote that for him.And, you know, I can see that
being, in the future. And forpeople who are actually writing
their own books, it's a reallychallenging creative endeavor.
(28:55):
But I think it's just like withanything else in the industry.
There's artistry, and thenthere's commercialism.
So a lot of it depends on whatyour goals are, like you said,
what your vision is, what yourgoals are, what you're planning
on, what you want to put out inthe world. And that's, you get
(29:15):
to choose who you work with inthat regard. But I see it a lot
like you might have an AIghostwriter in the future. There
might be somebody something tothat level that can come around.
Stacy (29:29):
Yeah. I I think that we will, arrive there, and I'm
curious to see the marketresponse to that. If you know, I
think that I feel it when I geta right now an AI generated
pitch or something like that. Iwill say and it's it's funny.
It's it's it's funny to me alittle bit to share this because
(29:51):
knowing your opinion onghostwriters, but I spent a good
chunk of my career as aghostwriter.
Being in my career I've
Davina (29:57):
been a ghostwriter. Let me just say that. I did a
ghostwriter. So Not as an not asan author, but not as a not for
books, but for articles andthought pieces and stuff like
that. Yeah.
Stacy (30:07):
So Yeah. And it's interesting because I I think it
depends on the kind of, like theapproach of the ghost writer
too. When I because I've I'vepersonally either authored, co
authored, or ghost written 18books. And the ones that I've
strictly ghost written, There isstill a real depth of the
(30:33):
approach with those. I mean,would travel either most of the
time I would travel to them.
Sometimes they would travel tome. We would spend a whole week
together, morning to night. Wewould whiteboard. We would I
mean, it was a real, reallycollaborative and deep process.
(30:54):
And so and so for an example, Iworked with a Nobel Prize winner
in medicine for four years ashis ghostwriter.
And also his business partnerwho was a naturopath. It would
never make sense for a NobelPrize winner to learn how to
write a book. That was my life'squest was to become a really
(31:15):
wonderful writer and to masterthat skill. His was to isolate
nitric oxide and win the NobelPrize for that. So I think that
there's it depends.
Like, there's times where youcan marry two life like, you've
spent your whole livesdeveloping these skills and
bringing them together createssomething really incredible that
(31:37):
neither of you could havecreated on your own. I would
imagine that Becoming, MichelleObama's book, probably had a
ghostwriter involved in that.Beautifully written book. So I
think that there's there's somenuance there where I struggle.
It's like the same.
I feel like I'm like tooting thesame horn. There is the ghost
(32:00):
writer that comes in and justlike edits the transcripts and
gets the book out to market. Andit's just not a good book. Or
there's the approach where it'slike an artistry to it and
there's collaboration andthere's you're developing
frameworks together or, youknow, it's and it can be really
beautiful and really exciting.And those are very different
creative experiences andcreative product at the end as
(32:22):
well.
Davina (32:24):
And so I think that for for AI that puts out the
question. Let's just put it thisway. There are nurses who are
protesting because now there arerobo nurses that are collecting
data, checking on vitals. Iguess I don't really know how a
robo nurse works, but we havehuman nurses who are saying,
(32:45):
this is a problem. We don't wantrobo nurses because that's, it's
not the same thing as having ahuman.
Yeah. But you can very easily, Imean, picture a movie on the
topic of having robo nurses tothe point that they are like,
you know, replacing, theirandroids or whatever. They're
(33:08):
replacing nurses. So you wonderthen if, if AI can evolve to
such a point that it canparticipate as a collaborative
partner on that level ofcreativity. You know?
Yeah. It's just a, it's just athought for the future, like out
there, I mean, because we dohave, we do have people who, you
know, hire other people towrite, help them write their
(33:30):
books or write their books forthem entirely. Yeah. And so it
there is a place, but I don'twe're nowhere near that at this
point. I don't think anybodyneeds to be scared of that right
now, but I can envision, youknow, maybe ten years from now.
I mean, that's that's the thing.Who knows? Right? It is
Stacy (33:46):
interesting. It's really interesting to consider. And
it's also interesting for me toconsider what couldn't it do
better. I mean, with the exampleof the the nurses, there I I
believe there are aspects ofmedicine that I would prefer AI
support. Like I would ratherhave a really well trained AI
than a doctor that's not payingattention to me and dismissing
(34:08):
my symptoms and doesn't give meanything useful.
You know, which is a lot offemale experience in the medical
office and has been, you know,as a parent with a child who has
a lot of health issues and spentfour years traveling around to
different doctors. Like itprobably would have been better
for me to go to an to an AIdoctor in that situation and
(34:30):
gotten faster answers. So I'msure there are things in my
industry as well that maybe wecan improve, like research, for
example, or fact checking. Ormaybe in the future, there are
some areas that we can reallygrow and that will push us to be
better at what we do. I hopethat's true.
(34:50):
I hope that there are some ofthose things ahead.
Davina (34:52):
That's really the piece that I think is so interesting
is that how does AI challenge usto be better? And to be able to
differentiate and say, well, arestill you still need humans. You
still need it for what? Andreally thinking about what that
(35:15):
is and what that looks like. Andyou you're you were talking
about, you know, seeing an AInurse and thinking, well, maybe
that is.
Think about how much I mean, Iwas around before there was a
Google, and so you couldn't justGoogle your symptoms. You there
was no WebMD. You couldn't go inand look up your symptoms and
think about how that has changedthe doctor patient experience.
(35:39):
When I look at my parents whoare in their eighties, doctors
are still if you're wearing thewhite coat, what you say is
sacrosanct. It's it's, you know,doesn't matter if it's wrong.
And it is in a lot of cases nowbecause their doctors are their
age. And versus, you know,Google, doctor Google. My sister
(36:01):
and I joke because anytime we'retalking about any sort of
ailment, both of us, while we'retexting each other, we're
googling. Right? And now we'regonna be getting AI answers.
Right? So it's already, like,infiltrating every part of our
our work. And I think writing isa place where a lot of lawyers
are telling me, oh, I'm using AIfor my writing, for my
(36:25):
marketing, for their marketing,you know, campaigns. They're
using AI. They're not going tocopywriters.
And I think part of that is theydon't understand the difference.
They don't understand, whenyou're talking content writing
versus sales copywriting, right,is two very different things.
(36:47):
And people who are trainedcopywriters know there's a huge
difference in being able towrite copy that will make you a
lot of money versus writesomething that sounds good.
Right? It's two very differentthings.
So I think there's a, with withbooks, with any kind of writing,
there's some education that hasto be done with an audience. Or
(37:08):
like you said, just having anaudience that just attracting
people that already have ashared value with you in terms
of what it is that you're doingfor for them, for their work,
putting it out there. Because Icould see that I can see we're
gonna be seeing people write abook, and it will be something
that they've generated from usedAI and then gone in and just it
(37:28):
up a little bit. You know? Idefinitely see that out there.
Stacy (37:32):
Oh, 100%. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately.
Davina (37:35):
Yeah. So, before we end, give me some idea of what the
why why should people considertaking action on that thought of
writing a book? And inparticular, this audience is
made up of women law firmowners. So a lot of them may be
(37:56):
looking at it in terms of theirlaw firm business. What can it
do?
What is the return on myinvestment to write a book that
would help me grow my business?
Stacy (38:09):
I always love the question of ROI because it's
really what a lot of people wantto know, right? Like I'm going
to not only invest money intothis process because certainly
there are expenses if you selfor hybrid publish. Even if you
don't, you still likely aregonna hire a coach of some kind
or invest in a program orthere's gonna be some
investment. But your time andyour energy are hugely valuable
(38:31):
especially as a lawyer. You thatthat takes away from the time
that you can put into yourbusiness or work with clients.
So it's a really importantquestion to ask before you
embark on any project, butcertainly on a book project. I
know we've already talked aboutsome of the internal benefits.
Right? That process of personalgrowth and really kind of
(38:56):
stepping into your next level. Ialso just wanna touch back on
that mindset piece because thereis a huge piece of that writing
process that does help youemerge into or grow into a new
mindset that is going to 100support your business growth.
It just really does help youlevel up and change you in such
(39:18):
a profound way. But the otherpart of this is really opening
up new opportunities. So someways that that can take place
is, for example, if you have aspecific framework that you use
to work with people, a lot oftimes people do have a
framework. They just don't knowthey have a framework yet. And
so as we go through this processof organizing their book, we are
(39:42):
often pulling together theirunique process and we're putting
it into something that's reallysimple and really clear that
then becomes their uniqueframework that they use for all
of their work.
And it becomes then this kind oflike, it's like their foundation
for everything else. And it justbrings so much more clarity to
(40:03):
their business. It also can openup other opportunities such as
revenue streams that may be morescalable than one to one work,
for example. Open up speakingopportunities, whether that's
paid keynote opportunities orpaid corporate workshops, or
perhaps getting you speaking opsthat maybe don't pay but are
huge client lead generators. Soopening, having that book is
(40:28):
really your ticket to be able topitch some of those really big
opportunities.
It's also a really nice kind ofin to, to have this author
status to connect with otherpeople. It's a great way to
reach out to a potential leadwithout selling them. So just
reaching out and saying, Hey, Iwould love to send you a copy of
(40:49):
my book. If you send me yourmailing address, I'll put it in
the mail for you. Those arereally easy ways that you can
pretty low cost because books toprint a book, it's usually
around $3 to $4 and then there'smail.
You can do, media mail shipping.So it's pretty inexpensive to
print and mail a book. And ifyou have a potential really high
(41:11):
quality lead, that's a reallynice way to just get you in
front of them. You're now ontheir shelf. It's also a huge
marketing attention opportunity.
So a book launch has so much toit. It's it's long, if you do it
well. And if you decide to hirePR as part of that process, it
opens you up to media, whichwill hopefully and usually send
(41:36):
traffic your way for a reallylong time. So some of if you
have a nice media hit or youknow Devina we're doing this
interview I'm not on herebecause I just wrote a book but
this interview that we're doingwill probably send people my
direction for a long time. Andit would be the other way around
if you're on my podcast.
So there's this there's thiskind of planting of seeds all
(41:57):
over the place that will getthose eyes back on your brand
and create a lot ofsustainability. And then lastly,
I'd say you have a lot ofopportunities for mini launches
for your book. So a lot of timespeople will launch their book
and they're like, that was myone opportunity to get
attention. Well, a lot of myclients now will stagger their
(42:18):
audiobook release by about sixmonths or so. So they'll have
another launch opportunity.
And then maybe let's say theirbook gets chosen for an awards.
They have another opportunity.For me, my last book, we had our
book in airports across The USabout a year after it came out.
So that was another, you know,attention opportunity. So it
(42:42):
does create a lot ofopportunities for you.
Plus, it's like a content, justmagic trove of goodness that you
can pull from quotes, stories,excerpts, and use on social
media forever.
Davina (42:56):
Right. Right. Right. One last question about I wanna ask
about publishing. Do you helpyour authors sort of figure out
what their avenue is going to befor publishing?
Is it gonna be self published?Is it gonna be you mentioned
hybrid. Are they gonna try toseek a publisher? Do you help
(43:16):
with that process as well orgive them some guidance in that?
Stacy (43:20):
In the process that I take authors through, we focus.
We really focus on the writingprocess in the first draft. But
I provide them with educationand support. And for my my
clients, I also have a lot ofpartners that I've made over the
last fifteen years of being inbusiness that I will directly
connect them to for publishing.People that I trust that I've
worked with in the past.
(43:43):
Most of my clients end up sellfor hybrid publishing. The main
reason for this without thiswould be like a whole other
episode if we wanted to divedeep. But the traditional
publishing route is a reallylong route. And so if you wanna
go that route, you're looking atprobably three years to market
if your book gets selected andit's on like a typical
(44:04):
timeframe. You know, two tothree years, but it's going to
edge maybe on that upward end.
If you're, if you are self orhybrid publishing eighteen
months is the timeframe that Iusually recommend, but you can
tighten that up to twelve monthswith if you're very if you have
good momentum withoutsacrificing quality. So there's
(44:25):
that's a lot more attractive forpeople that are looking to use
the business in the moreimmediate in the more immediate
term. I don't, I'm not like apublishing coach per se, but I
advise my clients as they'regoing through. So as an example,
all of my private coachingclients, I stay with them as
they're, we finish our coaching,but we stay in what I call a
(44:47):
mentorship. So as they're goingthrough their publishing
journey, I'm giving them titlefeedback.
We're looking at the covertogether. We're discussing PR
options. I'm getting on callswith them often. So I am that
seasoned expert that comes inand helps them make decisions
along the way. Never in a legalcapacity, though.
Always refer to attorneys forthat decision. Yeah. I'm very
(45:10):
clear about that.
Davina (45:11):
Absolutely. It's so important to be clear about what
your boundaries are. I find thatwith coaching with coaching as
well. I'm like, I'm not atherapist. Yes.
I'm a coach. I'm a businesscoach. Thank you so much for
being here, Stacy. Tell us whathow how can we get in touch with
you if we need to get in touchwith you and and maybe sign up
for your program.
Stacy (45:31):
Yeah. So I'm at StacyEnnis.com. And on that on
my site, I have informationabout my private coaching and
also my group coaching programIdea to Draft, which is a six
month program. And I'm alsoreally active on Instagram. I
post more about Portugallocation independence on on
Instagram and also on LinkedInwhere I share more of my book
writing advice and, get to shareconversations that I have with
(45:55):
people in the industry.
And anybody that listens tothis, please let me know that
you heard me through thisconversation with Divina. Sure
to, take great care of youknowing you came. Well, I would
anyway, but certainly I'll get,like, a little extra love coming
from Divina.
Davina (46:10):
Great. Thank you so much. I know my audience
appreciates a little extra love,so we appreciate it. Thank you
so much for being here. I'vereally enjoyed our conversation
today.
Stacy (46:19):
Thanks, Davina. I appreciate you having me.
Intro (46:22):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywealthywomanlawyer.com tolearn more about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
Davina (00:05):
if
Intro (00:05):
you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
(00:25):
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
(00:48):
here's Devina.
Davina (00:49):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealth to
Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm yourhost, Devina Frederick, and my
guest today is Stacy Ennis.Stacy is a bestselling author,
book coach, and speaker on amission to help other leaders
clarify their ideas and harnesstheir unique story to make an
impact. Her background includesinvolvement in the creation of
more than a hundred books in herfifteen plus years in
(01:11):
publishing, ghostwriting for aNobel Prize winner in medicine,
and leading as an executiveeditor of Sam's Club's Healthy
Living Made Simple, apublication that reached more
than 11,000,000 readers. Stacy'swork and writing have been
featured in Yahoo, Inc, Insider,Publishers Weekly, Katie Couric,
and on the TEDx stage.
(01:32):
Stacy is also the host of thepodcast Beyond Better and holds
a master's in writing andediting from the University of
Cincinnati. Please join me inwelcoming Stacy Ennis to the
Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.Hi, Stacy. Welcome to the
Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.
Stacy (01:47):
Hi, Davina. Thanks so much for having me.
Davina (01:50):
I am glad to have you here. So we you and I were
talking before the call, and youare in Portugal.
Stacy (01:55):
Yeah. It's in the South. It's sunny and beautiful here
today.
Davina (01:59):
I I know a lot of women lawyers law firm owners have a
dream of living and working inanother country outside The US.
What is your what has been yourexperience? You've been doing
this for a while now.
Stacy (02:13):
Yeah. I mean, I started my business in 02/2009. And when
I started it, I I had thisvision of being able to move my
business around the world withme. I didn't know at the time
that I was building a locationindependent business. There that
didn't really exist as a term,but that's what I've built.
Mhmm. And it's pretty incredibleto have that freedom to be able
(02:38):
to move. Actually, a lot ofpeople have more freedom than
they realize to be able to livelocation independent. But this
is our fourth country outside ofThe US, and I feel like I've
grown so much in every differentculture that I've lived in.
Yeah.
I just feel like I've I'vereally gotten to experience the
world, which has beenincredible.
Davina (02:59):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a different experience, imagine,
than just going on vacationsomeplace because you're really
immersed into the daily livingof that culture. But tell us
about this business that youhave that is an independent
location independent business.That's what we're here to talk
about today.
So tell us about that.
Stacy (03:18):
Yeah. I'm a book coach, so I help authors on their
journey of writing their book.And I I say journey specifically
because I do see the bookwriting process as a journey. I
approach it a little bitdifferently than other people in
my in my area. Because a lot oftimes when people go to write a
book, they will come acrossmessaging around getting it done
(03:40):
fast.
Get it done in thirty days orsixty days and get it to market.
And they're often taken througha process that is not very fun,
not very transformative. And atthe end of it, sometimes will
come out with a book thatthey're they're proud of, but
not deeply proud of. It iscertainly not shelf stable. It's
(04:03):
not a sustainability tool fortheir business.
Mhmm. And so the work that I dois really centered on book
strategy and book coaching. Sohelping people unearth the
messaging, unearth the storiesthat that really need to be
central to how they share theirmessage. And then really embark
(04:24):
on a a journey of deepintrospection that helps them
not only craft a book that willstand the test of time and
really help them build theirbrand or their movement or their
business, whatever the thing isthat they're looking to build.
But we'll also take them on apersonal growth journey along
the way, which is which isreally cool and a really
(04:44):
exciting part of what I get todo.
Davina (04:47):
That's so interesting. So how long does it usually take
for people to working with youto write a book?
Stacy (04:53):
When I coach authors, it takes six months. So I have a
six month process that I takeauthors through. We spend about
a month to a month and a half onthe ideation and outlining
process. And for anyonelistening that's thinking about
writing a book, probably,especially for lawyers, you have
a million ideas and they'realways just kind of buzzing
(05:14):
through your head. And sometimesyou just kinda wish you could
reach out into the sky and grabthem all together and somehow
give order to it.
So the process that I takepeople through starts with
really wide messy ideation Andthen slowly refines into a
really detailed book outline.And then from there we spend
(05:35):
about four and a half to fivemonths in the draft, in the
draft phase. And I have to say Ilove working with attorneys
because y'all are great writersand you have also honed that
skill. So it's a really niceit's a really nice area of
practice to come into bookwriting because you already have
(05:56):
a skill of writing. You alreadyhave a practice of writing
typically through your work.
Where I see the lawyers that Iwork with really evolve is
through tapping into theirauthentic voice and really
getting to bring some of theirunique uniqueness into it. And
maybe it's humor. Maybe it's alittle bit of sass. Maybe it's
(06:19):
energy. May you know, whateverit is.
So we end up focusing on that alot in the writing process over
the over that six month journey.
Davina (06:28):
Yeah. Yeah. That's you you talk about, book writing as
a growth journey. Tell me alittle bit more about how it
helps us as a growth journey.
Stacy (06:41):
In our everyday lives, we are our attention is pulled
outward so much. Right? From themoment we wake up, typically,
it's often pulled to ourscreens. And all day long, we
are pulled outward to ourfamily, to our, you know,
clients, to whoever it is thatthat demands our attention. And
if it's not there, it's usuallyon something else.
(07:02):
It's on something that's pullingour attention. A book requires
focus and it requires deepintrospection, which requires
time and silence. And then fromthat space, you have to then
translate that into somethingthat other people will be
impacted by and will be able touse in whatever way you want
(07:24):
them to use it, whether it's tobe changed by the story or to
implement the thing, whateverthat is. And if if for nothing
else than that, the fact thatyou are deeply introspective for
a long period of time, for sure,that is huge. But the other
piece of it that I'd say is soimportant is that this is a huge
(07:47):
life goal for so many people.
And there is a confidence and areal anchoring in your own
expertise and your own valuethat you have to offer the world
that comes about through thisprocess of really author status
of stepping into that authorstatus. And stepping into that
space of authorhood happens overtime. It happens as you start
(08:09):
the ideation process and as youwrite the draft. And I've talked
about those six months,certainly have longer after that
to get it to market. But thereis something that happens
through that journey of goingthrough all of these steps and
realizing this big huge goal andthen arriving at this new place
(08:30):
that really does allow you tolevel up.
And it's not necessarily I mean,there is, of course, there's
outward signs of that, but Ithink a lot of it really is
mindset related and how you showup in your work.
Davina (08:43):
Mhmm. That's that's interesting that you say that.
I've written two books. And,what amazed me about the process
is the first one was a lot moredifficult than the second one.
And it's it for for me, Irealized by the time it was
(09:05):
done, by the time it waspublished, and I was talking
about it, and it was out there,I had grown so much beyond that
book.
And I think that's another piecethat's kind of interesting when
you you write a book is that youit's part of your growth journey
as well. And then you sort of goto that next level after you've
(09:27):
kind of put that out there. And,and I, and, and it's a little
bit like, oh yeah, I read thisbook. It's, you know, it's out
there. Read it.
It's good. But I'm like overhere now. And, but I have to
remember that there are peoplewho don't even have the
knowledge that I share in thatbook. And I think that's one of
the, that's one of the,illuminating things about
(09:50):
writing books too, is that you,with each one, you sort of go
you get that out. And now mybooks were a little bit more of
a they're practical guides.
So a a lot less we were talkingabout a Rivi Vargas Vargas on
the show earlier. She was on theshow earlier, she's one of your
authors. And her book was a lotof It was about burnout, and it
(10:13):
was a lot of exploration of herown experience with burnout, and
then how she now coaches peoplein dealing with burnout. And I
think, when you talk aboutthought leadership, that really
comes through in a in a booklike hers when she's talking
about this really personalexperience of how you know? And
(10:34):
you get the sense.
This is a real emotional journeyfor her and awakening for her.
Can you give me some examples ofother authors that are attorneys
who've written books for you andkind of what sort of topics they
tackle? Because I think this isa question a lot of lawyers are
asking. Should I write, youknow, a book about this area of
the law? Should I write it withan eye toward other lawyers as
(10:57):
an audience?
Should I write it with an eyetoward, you know, by prospective
clients as an audience? What isthe approach that you help
people take to sort of figurethat out?
Stacy (11:08):
Well, first of all, I love that you shared your
experience because I knowthat'll be really helpful for
listeners who are thinking aboutwriting a book themselves. And
certainly there is that elementof capturing the book, the right
book for right now, but thenthere's another right book for
right now. And, that's what Icall a catalyst book. So what I
what I'm helping authors thinkabout, how how do I figure out
(11:31):
what book to write? Becauseagain, when I'm meeting people,
there's usually two sides.
One is I wanna write a book. Ireally don't know what I wanna
write about, but I know it's agoal and I need to figure out
what that's about. Okay. Thenthe other side is I wanna write
a book. Here are my 10 ideas.
And I think I can fit them allin one book. And here's how I'm
thinking about it. And so whatwe're often trying to find
(11:54):
together is first we aredefining their vision. So we're
starting with, okay, I'm heretoday and here's my big vision
for impact. I only work withimpact makers.
I work with people who areputting good into the world and
they have a mission and amessage that is beyond the book.
The book is a tool for them. NowI'm also deep I have deep
(12:20):
respect for books. So I alsobelieve in putting great books
out into the world. But theclients that I work with they
believe in both.
They see I wanna write the bestbook I can write and that I'm
proud of. And I know that thisbook is a tool that's gonna help
me achieve my big vision. So ifwe look at that trajectory, I'm
(12:41):
here today and here's my liketen plus year vision of what I
wanna do in the world. Sometimesit's really clear. Sometimes
it's a little fuzzier, but atleast we know what the the
mission element usually is.
We have an idea of that. There'sprobably, you know, at least two
or three books. Maybe for somepeople there's like five plus
books along this line for themthat could extend well well into
(13:04):
their future. We don't need toknow what all those books are.
We'll probably get some ideasabout them.
But we just needed to find whatis that book for right now that
is moving you toward that futurevision that you see for
yourself. And so we start there.We start with the vision. And
(13:24):
then we work through theideation process that I talked
about a little bit earlier. AndI also teach them about the
different types of bookstructures.
So we explore, are you writing anarrative book? Is this really
anchored to your personal story?Are you writing more of a
prescriptive how to book? Thoseare very different books. You're
it sounds like the one that youwrote is the two that you wrote
(13:47):
are more in that category.
Are you writing a big idea bookor maybe kind of a big idea
narrative blend? So we'relooking at how do these
interact? How does your storyplay big? Or is it an kind of
underpinning? Are we bringing inother stories?
How story heavy is this? Sowe're starting to explore some
(14:09):
of those elements to it. And weanswer those questions based on
the vision and what you arebuilding from the book. There's
a lot to it, of course, but I'dsay that that's the core of it.
That's where we start.
Davina (14:23):
Right. Right. Do you have any, examples of
Stacy (14:27):
Oh yes.
Davina (14:27):
You. Yeah.
Stacy (14:29):
Thank you for teeing that back up. Cause I I, when I took
in your I had like all of theselayers.
Davina (14:33):
Oh, you have all the I know this a lot. I usually ask
compound questions too, whichare
Stacy (14:38):
Yeah. So I think I'll start with, Otto V. Otto V
Vargas, is just an amazing humanand I think a really lovely
example for your listeners to goback and listen to the episode
that you did with her.
Davina (14:52):
Is read the book.
Stacy (14:54):
Yes. Yes. Of course. Of course. Yes.
Davina (14:56):
Read the book as well.
Stacy (14:57):
But her book's called Your Time to Rise. It just came
out recently earlier this year.And I think Adovi is a great
example of somebody who had theexperience as a coach and the
personal experience as a humanbeing. And in her book she was
able to bring in her story. Andalso when you're a coach or
(15:18):
you're you're in an area ofexpertise, it's really important
if you are using an you'rewriting an expert positioning
book that is really meant toelevate your position within
your industry that you'rebringing in those other stories.
And so she did a really nice jobof bringing in examples of
clients and painting those thosepictures throughout, know, as
(15:41):
she's as she wrote the book. Andfor her, now she's really early
still in her launch, but she dida really nice job, I think
building behind the scenes. Soshe built a lot of excitement
around the book. Executed everysingle step. So she was really
thoughtful in who she hired asan editor.
(16:01):
Who she worked with as apublisher. Her cover design. Her
cover is beautiful and it fitsperfectly with her her brand
presence. And the result of allof this is that she was able to
really elevate her brandimmediately as this and actually
even before the book wasreleased because she started
including the book oneverything. Right?
(16:22):
As soon as the cover was done.So I think she's a really lovely
example. Another example I canthink of is a client named Joel
Perez. Now he's not an attorney,but he is a DEI consultant. And
when we met, he was working onhis book to help grow his
consulting and coaching practiceas as a DEI coach.
(16:43):
He wrote a a book called DearWhite Leader, which is a very
disruptive title.
Davina (16:48):
Oh, wow.
Stacy (16:49):
Yeah. A very brave title, I think, and was very purposeful
in purposeful in choosingsomething that would garnish
gain attention. And for him,that book actually, like Adarvi,
I didn't say this, but verysimilarly, Adarvi has already
really been on so many stages asa keynote. Joel as well. He has
(17:11):
had so many speakingopportunities.
I feel like every time I talkwith him, he's en route to
another speaking opportunity ora workshop. He's just really
driven the demand for his work.I'll give one more quick
example. This is a financialexpert. Her name is Giovanna
Gonzales.
And she already had a followingon social. So she's a little bit
(17:35):
of a different example for thatreason. But for her, she was an
influencer that really wanted toshe she was an influencer, but
because she was legitimate. Youknow, she knew what she was
talking about. And she reallywanted to build in this other
kind of layering to how sheshowed up in the world and offer
really kind of move into thisthought leadership space, which
(17:58):
she deserved to be in.
But sometimes with thatinfluencer title, you don't
always get the same, I think,credibility maybe in people's
eyes. And so she wrote this bookthat has hit multiple bestseller
lists. She's now it's now usedin curriculum at the University
of Illinois. She four x'd herspeaker fee. And she's also
(18:20):
grown new revenue streams in herbusiness as a result of that.
Again, Joel did the same thing.Really good at early marketing.
So a lot of people make amistake of waiting until the
book is nearly out. And youstart marketing that baby the
second you start writing it. Whynot?
Right? It's an opportunity to tostart establishing that status.
Davina (18:41):
Yeah. I think where a lot of people get scared about
that is they say, well, I'mdoing this project, but I don't
know if I'll finish it, if itwill see the light of day. And
so I don't wanna put it outthere and start talking about it
till it's actually a realconcrete thing. And I think it
takes a certain level ofconfidence to, to put things out
(19:02):
there and say, this is my dreamand I'm working on it and making
it come true. And, you know, I,I I'll social media has made it.
So I think a lot more people aresharing those, their journey in
the process a lot more than theyused to. You know, you we're
always seeing people, you know,I bought a house. I'm renovating
(19:23):
it. And then they're sharingthat whole process with you, the
good, the bad, and the ugly. Andso I think we start to see that
with a lot more authors too asthey're they're going out.
They're putting it out there.They're going, I'm doing this
thing, and they're sharing thejourney with you as they're
doing it. And I think that takesa certain amount of bravery to
do that because I also know somany people who have pieces and
(19:43):
parts of books that they've hadfor years that have never made
it, which is where I think agood book coach comes in. I had
a book coach, with for me withboth of my books and a team that
helped helped to do the coversand all that kind of stuff. So
talk to me about what one of thethings I wanna discuss with you
(20:05):
is AI, Because I think a lot oflawyers right now are talking
about artificial intelligenceand how to use them in their
practice.
And one of the big I'm I'm amember of the lawyer community,
obviously, but I'm also a memberof the copywriter community. I'm
a lot I'm in a lot ofcopywriting groups because I'm a
(20:26):
trained copywriter and have adegree in writing. And it the
copywriters in the world arelooking at going, okay. Well,
how do we keep working in theface of AI? I imagine that
people who are talking to peopleabout writing a book also are
having to think about are arethe are the authors going to
(20:50):
want to use AI?
How is that going to impact whatwe're doing? That kind of thing.
Have you had those thoughts? Andwhat have you done about it?
Stacy (21:01):
Yeah. I love I love talking about AI because I have
a very hopeful viewpoint aroundAI. I did wanna I'm gonna come
back in just a sec. I did wannajust piggyback on what you said
about the bravery of sharing.And I think that is a really
nice point to make thatsometimes when you're in a big
(21:21):
big hairy project, feels huge.
It feels overwhelming. Andsometimes you also don't know
how to do it. So then announcingthat you're doing something can
feel maybe foolish sometimes.You're like, I don't really know
if I'm gonna get done or how.And I I love your point about
coaching.
I think whether you have a pureaccountability person, you have
(21:43):
a coach like me, or whatever itis, having that built in
accountability makes a hugedifference. But also bear in
mind that your online communitygets to be your accountability,
which will drive you to itactually is really motivating
when people start asking youabout your book. So I would just
encourage anybody that's like alittle bit of the way in to
(22:03):
consider if they'd be willing toannounce it because it does
drive does like light a fireunder you a little bit.
Davina (22:09):
There's pressure too. I had, I had someone say to me,
you've been talking about thisbook for years.
Stacy (22:16):
Yep. And I was like, yeah, I guess I'm gonna get it
done. I do something new. New.
Davina (22:21):
Had pieces and parts of books, you know, and, to have
that push. I had a coach that,you know, helped sort of push
the first one. And it's and it'snot, like I said, when you know,
once I did the book, I was like,is that the book that I really
wanted to write?
Stacy (22:37):
I don't
Davina (22:38):
know at the time, but that's at the time it was
though, when I first started it.And then number of years went by
before I got finished with it.And that's, that's, that's where
I think the, we talk about theprocess of getting things done
quickly when something occurs toyou, because that's where you
are now. Whereas if you sort oflet it drag on, you're evolving
and changing, and then you'regoing back to that book and
(23:01):
trying to finish it. It'sharder.
You're somebody who's been theredone that. It's harder because
you're like, oh, I'm kind ofover this now. You know?
Stacy (23:09):
Yeah. And the momentum is hard to re to restart. So I'm
glad you added that. That'sgood. Okay AI.
So I love to talk about thisbecause I firmly believe that at
some point we are going to havea creative renaissance. I don't
know when that's gonna happen.But I believe that the work that
(23:29):
I do and other practitionersthat are at a extremely high
level, highly trained, will behugely valued and hugely in
demand. I think our pendulum'sgonna have to swing and swing
back. That's okay.
That's just my prediction. WhereI get a little worried or a lot
worried is that we're missing atraining level to get to
(23:51):
mastery. So where I see AI as aproblem is in critical thinking,
in development of craft. And soI worry that our next generation
of writers are gonna miss out onsome of what I went through to
develop mastery in my craft. Andmastery quote unquote, I mean
(24:12):
we're all in a work in progressbut you know Always same thing.
Don't really like reach masteryI don't think. With my
perspective on AI and I actuallyhad my legal contracts redone
about a year ago with a littleAI clause in there. I do not use
(24:36):
generative AI. I will not workwith people who use generative
AI in their books and that is inmy legal agreements. I think
that AI is a great tool for asI've heard it the term used as a
thought as thoughts.
What did they say? Sparringpartner. A thought sparring
partner. And so it's, I thinkit's a great tool to help you
(25:00):
with like your initial layer ofresearch or help you think
through a stuck point or, youknow, give you a different
perspective. Or if you're reallystuck on a metaphor, can go in
and get some ideas.
The metaphors are usually prettybad by the way from AI, but it's
a tool. Right. And where I havehad to step away from potential
(25:23):
industry partnerships or realizethat somebody is just not the
client for me is when they seeit as a replacement for their
own critical thinking and theirown thought leadership is
leadership of thoughts. You haveto think. Right.
To be a thought leader. And soyou cannot replace that. There
(25:44):
is no shortcut to to reachingthat true thought leadership.
Now you can look like a thoughtleader through fancy branding
but that's gonna fall flat whenyou get into a real life
scenario where you need to speakabout your area of mastery, area
of expertise and thoughtleadership. So I think it's a
(26:05):
great tool.
I think that I don't feel anysense of threat in my specific
area because I work with peoplewho value this and who, really
wanna put meaningful work intothe world. There are tons of
(26:25):
people out there who are, youknow, following different
methods to write their book anda different philosophy than I
have about the process. Andthat's okay. We're all
different. We can all do thingsdifferently.
But I think in the niche thatI've chosen to focus and you
know our our number one criteriawhen I have somebody that
(26:46):
reaches out about their project,the first question I ask is, is
this book putting good into theworld? That's number one. Has to
be a yes. I that necessitates apurposefulness to somebody's
whole existence in their work,in their mission. You know?
So I don't know if that was likea very specific answer, but
(27:09):
that's my
Davina (27:10):
That was a good answer. And I and I I know that every
all all the lawyers up listeningto this are sending you little
heart emojis right now becauseof that you got your contracts
redone to include AI language.That's something that a lot of
people aren't thinking aboutwith, AI, and how does it impact
my business, and should I beaddressing that in my contract?
(27:30):
So that was very interesting tohear you say that. Also, that
leads me though to this kind ofthought about ghost writers.
So as someone who has written myown books, be they good or bad,
right? And there are people whowill, you know, I criticize
(27:51):
them, right? I look back on themand I go, oh, you know, I had a
terrible proofreader for thefirst one and mistakes got
through, you know, stuff likethat. And I'm a different person
now, all those things, but Iwrote them. And so it always
kind of is a little bitoffensive to me for people to
say, I wrote a book and theydidn't write the book.
Somebody else wrote the book,but it's their story or their
(28:14):
words, and that's ghostwriting.And a lot of people do that. So
it's a little AI might be alittle bit like ghostwriting
when we think of the future. Andas AI develops more and more and
more, we'd have might have moreand more people use it as their
ghostwriter. Right now, don'tthink it's there, but I can see
(28:35):
a day where it might get there,where you might start having,
you know, people like, you know,Donald Trump didn't write the
art of the deal.
Somebody wrote that for him.And, you know, I can see that
being, in the future. And forpeople who are actually writing
their own books, it's a reallychallenging creative endeavor.
(28:55):
But I think it's just like withanything else in the industry.
There's artistry, and thenthere's commercialism.
So a lot of it depends on whatyour goals are, like you said,
what your vision is, what yourgoals are, what you're planning
on, what you want to put out inthe world. And that's, you get
(29:15):
to choose who you work with inthat regard. But I see it a lot
like you might have an AIghostwriter in the future. There
might be somebody something tothat level that can come around.
Stacy (29:29):
Yeah. I I think that we will, arrive there, and I'm
curious to see the marketresponse to that. If you know, I
think that I feel it when I geta right now an AI generated
pitch or something like that. Iwill say and it's it's funny.
It's it's it's funny to me alittle bit to share this because
(29:51):
knowing your opinion onghostwriters, but I spent a good
chunk of my career as aghostwriter.
Being in my career I've
Davina (29:57):
been a ghostwriter. Let me just say that. I did a
ghostwriter. So Not as an not asan author, but not as a not for
books, but for articles andthought pieces and stuff like
that. Yeah.
Stacy (30:07):
So Yeah. And it's interesting because I I think it
depends on the kind of, like theapproach of the ghost writer
too. When I because I've I'vepersonally either authored, co
authored, or ghost written 18books. And the ones that I've
strictly ghost written, There isstill a real depth of the
(30:33):
approach with those. I mean,would travel either most of the
time I would travel to them.
Sometimes they would travel tome. We would spend a whole week
together, morning to night. Wewould whiteboard. We would I
mean, it was a real, reallycollaborative and deep process.
(30:54):
And so and so for an example, Iworked with a Nobel Prize winner
in medicine for four years ashis ghostwriter.
And also his business partnerwho was a naturopath. It would
never make sense for a NobelPrize winner to learn how to
write a book. That was my life'squest was to become a really
(31:15):
wonderful writer and to masterthat skill. His was to isolate
nitric oxide and win the NobelPrize for that. So I think that
there's it depends.
Like, there's times where youcan marry two life like, you've
spent your whole livesdeveloping these skills and
bringing them together createssomething really incredible that
(31:37):
neither of you could havecreated on your own. I would
imagine that Becoming, MichelleObama's book, probably had a
ghostwriter involved in that.Beautifully written book. So I
think that there's there's somenuance there where I struggle.
It's like the same.
I feel like I'm like tooting thesame horn. There is the ghost
(32:00):
writer that comes in and justlike edits the transcripts and
gets the book out to market. Andit's just not a good book. Or
there's the approach where it'slike an artistry to it and
there's collaboration andthere's you're developing
frameworks together or, youknow, it's and it can be really
beautiful and really exciting.And those are very different
creative experiences andcreative product at the end as
(32:22):
well.
Davina (32:24):
And so I think that for for AI that puts out the
question. Let's just put it thisway. There are nurses who are
protesting because now there arerobo nurses that are collecting
data, checking on vitals. Iguess I don't really know how a
robo nurse works, but we havehuman nurses who are saying,
(32:45):
this is a problem. We don't wantrobo nurses because that's, it's
not the same thing as having ahuman.
Yeah. But you can very easily, Imean, picture a movie on the
topic of having robo nurses tothe point that they are like,
you know, replacing, theirandroids or whatever. They're
(33:08):
replacing nurses. So you wonderthen if, if AI can evolve to
such a point that it canparticipate as a collaborative
partner on that level ofcreativity. You know?
Yeah. It's just a, it's just athought for the future, like out
there, I mean, because we dohave, we do have people who, you
know, hire other people towrite, help them write their
(33:30):
books or write their books forthem entirely. Yeah. And so it
there is a place, but I don'twe're nowhere near that at this
point. I don't think anybodyneeds to be scared of that right
now, but I can envision, youknow, maybe ten years from now.
I mean, that's that's the thing.Who knows? Right? It is
Stacy (33:46):
interesting. It's really interesting to consider. And
it's also interesting for me toconsider what couldn't it do
better. I mean, with the exampleof the the nurses, there I I
believe there are aspects ofmedicine that I would prefer AI
support. Like I would ratherhave a really well trained AI
than a doctor that's not payingattention to me and dismissing
(34:08):
my symptoms and doesn't give meanything useful.
You know, which is a lot offemale experience in the medical
office and has been, you know,as a parent with a child who has
a lot of health issues and spentfour years traveling around to
different doctors. Like itprobably would have been better
for me to go to an to an AIdoctor in that situation and
(34:30):
gotten faster answers. So I'msure there are things in my
industry as well that maybe wecan improve, like research, for
example, or fact checking. Ormaybe in the future, there are
some areas that we can reallygrow and that will push us to be
better at what we do. I hopethat's true.
(34:50):
I hope that there are some ofthose things ahead.
Davina (34:52):
That's really the piece that I think is so interesting
is that how does AI challenge usto be better? And to be able to
differentiate and say, well, arestill you still need humans. You
still need it for what? Andreally thinking about what that
(35:15):
is and what that looks like. Andyou you're you were talking
about, you know, seeing an AInurse and thinking, well, maybe
that is.
Think about how much I mean, Iwas around before there was a
Google, and so you couldn't justGoogle your symptoms. You there
was no WebMD. You couldn't go inand look up your symptoms and
think about how that has changedthe doctor patient experience.
(35:39):
When I look at my parents whoare in their eighties, doctors
are still if you're wearing thewhite coat, what you say is
sacrosanct. It's it's, you know,doesn't matter if it's wrong.
And it is in a lot of cases nowbecause their doctors are their
age. And versus, you know,Google, doctor Google. My sister
(36:01):
and I joke because anytime we'retalking about any sort of
ailment, both of us, while we'retexting each other, we're
googling. Right? And now we'regonna be getting AI answers.
Right? So it's already, like,infiltrating every part of our
our work. And I think writing isa place where a lot of lawyers
are telling me, oh, I'm using AIfor my writing, for my
(36:25):
marketing, for their marketing,you know, campaigns. They're
using AI. They're not going tocopywriters.
And I think part of that is theydon't understand the difference.
They don't understand, whenyou're talking content writing
versus sales copywriting, right,is two very different things.
(36:47):
And people who are trainedcopywriters know there's a huge
difference in being able towrite copy that will make you a
lot of money versus writesomething that sounds good.
Right? It's two very differentthings.
So I think there's a, with withbooks, with any kind of writing,
there's some education that hasto be done with an audience. Or
(37:08):
like you said, just having anaudience that just attracting
people that already have ashared value with you in terms
of what it is that you're doingfor for them, for their work,
putting it out there. Because Icould see that I can see we're
gonna be seeing people write abook, and it will be something
that they've generated from usedAI and then gone in and just it
(37:28):
up a little bit. You know? Idefinitely see that out there.
Stacy (37:32):
Oh, 100%. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately.
Davina (37:35):
Yeah. So, before we end, give me some idea of what the
why why should people considertaking action on that thought of
writing a book? And inparticular, this audience is
made up of women law firmowners. So a lot of them may be
(37:56):
looking at it in terms of theirlaw firm business. What can it
do?
What is the return on myinvestment to write a book that
would help me grow my business?
Stacy (38:09):
I always love the question of ROI because it's
really what a lot of people wantto know, right? Like I'm going
to not only invest money intothis process because certainly
there are expenses if you selfor hybrid publish. Even if you
don't, you still likely aregonna hire a coach of some kind
or invest in a program orthere's gonna be some
investment. But your time andyour energy are hugely valuable
(38:31):
especially as a lawyer. You thatthat takes away from the time
that you can put into yourbusiness or work with clients.
So it's a really importantquestion to ask before you
embark on any project, butcertainly on a book project. I
know we've already talked aboutsome of the internal benefits.
Right? That process of personalgrowth and really kind of
(38:56):
stepping into your next level. Ialso just wanna touch back on
that mindset piece because thereis a huge piece of that writing
process that does help youemerge into or grow into a new
mindset that is going to 100support your business growth.
It just really does help youlevel up and change you in such
(39:18):
a profound way. But the otherpart of this is really opening
up new opportunities. So someways that that can take place
is, for example, if you have aspecific framework that you use
to work with people, a lot oftimes people do have a
framework. They just don't knowthey have a framework yet. And
so as we go through this processof organizing their book, we are
(39:42):
often pulling together theirunique process and we're putting
it into something that's reallysimple and really clear that
then becomes their uniqueframework that they use for all
of their work.
And it becomes then this kind oflike, it's like their foundation
for everything else. And it justbrings so much more clarity to
(40:03):
their business. It also can openup other opportunities such as
revenue streams that may be morescalable than one to one work,
for example. Open up speakingopportunities, whether that's
paid keynote opportunities orpaid corporate workshops, or
perhaps getting you speaking opsthat maybe don't pay but are
huge client lead generators. Soopening, having that book is
(40:28):
really your ticket to be able topitch some of those really big
opportunities.
It's also a really nice kind ofin to, to have this author
status to connect with otherpeople. It's a great way to
reach out to a potential leadwithout selling them. So just
reaching out and saying, Hey, Iwould love to send you a copy of
(40:49):
my book. If you send me yourmailing address, I'll put it in
the mail for you. Those arereally easy ways that you can
pretty low cost because books toprint a book, it's usually
around $3 to $4 and then there'smail.
You can do, media mail shipping.So it's pretty inexpensive to
print and mail a book. And ifyou have a potential really high
(41:11):
quality lead, that's a reallynice way to just get you in
front of them. You're now ontheir shelf. It's also a huge
marketing attention opportunity.
So a book launch has so much toit. It's it's long, if you do it
well. And if you decide to hirePR as part of that process, it
opens you up to media, whichwill hopefully and usually send
(41:36):
traffic your way for a reallylong time. So some of if you
have a nice media hit or youknow Devina we're doing this
interview I'm not on herebecause I just wrote a book but
this interview that we're doingwill probably send people my
direction for a long time. Andit would be the other way around
if you're on my podcast.
So there's this there's thiskind of planting of seeds all
(41:57):
over the place that will getthose eyes back on your brand
and create a lot ofsustainability. And then lastly,
I'd say you have a lot ofopportunities for mini launches
for your book. So a lot of timespeople will launch their book
and they're like, that was myone opportunity to get
attention. Well, a lot of myclients now will stagger their
(42:18):
audiobook release by about sixmonths or so. So they'll have
another launch opportunity.
And then maybe let's say theirbook gets chosen for an awards.
They have another opportunity.For me, my last book, we had our
book in airports across The USabout a year after it came out.
So that was another, you know,attention opportunity. So it
(42:42):
does create a lot ofopportunities for you.
Plus, it's like a content, justmagic trove of goodness that you
can pull from quotes, stories,excerpts, and use on social
media forever.
Davina (42:56):
Right. Right. Right. One last question about I wanna ask
about publishing. Do you helpyour authors sort of figure out
what their avenue is going to befor publishing?
Is it gonna be self published?Is it gonna be you mentioned
hybrid. Are they gonna try toseek a publisher? Do you help
(43:16):
with that process as well orgive them some guidance in that?
Stacy (43:20):
In the process that I take authors through, we focus.
We really focus on the writingprocess in the first draft. But
I provide them with educationand support. And for my my
clients, I also have a lot ofpartners that I've made over the
last fifteen years of being inbusiness that I will directly
connect them to for publishing.People that I trust that I've
worked with in the past.
(43:43):
Most of my clients end up sellfor hybrid publishing. The main
reason for this without thiswould be like a whole other
episode if we wanted to divedeep. But the traditional
publishing route is a reallylong route. And so if you wanna
go that route, you're looking atprobably three years to market
if your book gets selected andit's on like a typical
(44:04):
timeframe. You know, two tothree years, but it's going to
edge maybe on that upward end.
If you're, if you are self orhybrid publishing eighteen
months is the timeframe that Iusually recommend, but you can
tighten that up to twelve monthswith if you're very if you have
good momentum withoutsacrificing quality. So there's
(44:25):
that's a lot more attractive forpeople that are looking to use
the business in the moreimmediate in the more immediate
term. I don't, I'm not like apublishing coach per se, but I
advise my clients as they'regoing through. So as an example,
all of my private coachingclients, I stay with them as
they're, we finish our coaching,but we stay in what I call a
(44:47):
mentorship. So as they're goingthrough their publishing
journey, I'm giving them titlefeedback.
We're looking at the covertogether. We're discussing PR
options. I'm getting on callswith them often. So I am that
seasoned expert that comes inand helps them make decisions
along the way. Never in a legalcapacity, though.
Always refer to attorneys forthat decision. Yeah. I'm very
(45:10):
clear about that.
Davina (45:11):
Absolutely. It's so important to be clear about what
your boundaries are. I find thatwith coaching with coaching as
well. I'm like, I'm not atherapist. Yes.
I'm a coach. I'm a businesscoach. Thank you so much for
being here, Stacy. Tell us whathow how can we get in touch with
you if we need to get in touchwith you and and maybe sign up
for your program.
Stacy (45:31):
Yeah. So I'm at StacyEnnis.com. And on that on
my site, I have informationabout my private coaching and
also my group coaching programIdea to Draft, which is a six
month program. And I'm alsoreally active on Instagram. I
post more about Portugallocation independence on on
Instagram and also on LinkedInwhere I share more of my book
writing advice and, get to shareconversations that I have with
(45:55):
people in the industry.
And anybody that listens tothis, please let me know that
you heard me through thisconversation with Divina. Sure
to, take great care of youknowing you came. Well, I would
anyway, but certainly I'll get,like, a little extra love coming
from Divina.
Davina (46:10):
Great. Thank you so much. I know my audience
appreciates a little extra love,so we appreciate it. Thank you
so much for being here. I'vereally enjoyed our conversation
today.
Stacy (46:19):
Thanks, Davina. I appreciate you having me.
Intro (46:22):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywealthywomanlawyer.com tolearn more about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
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