April 17, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, I chat with Valerie Fenchel, CEO and founder of Fenchel Family Law PC. Valerie shares her journey from early career doubts to building a thriving family law practice in San Francisco that empowers both her clients and her team. We explore how she’s approached law firm leadership, cultivated a powerhouse team, and created a firm culture aligned with her values.
If you’ve ever wondered how to lead with integrity while scaling your practice—or what it takes to truly own your identity as a law firm CEO—this episode is for you. Valerie’s perspective on hiring, growth, and high-stakes client relationships will leave you inspired and energized.
Don’t miss it!
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To learn more about Valerie and Fenchel Family Law PC, visit fenchelfamilylaw.com or connect with Valerie on LinkedIn.
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Ready to scale your law firm and build a practice that aligns with your values? Book a call with Davina.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:43):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
here's Devina.
Davina (00:49):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the wealthy
woman lawyer podcast. I'm yourhost, Devina Frederick. And my
guest today is Valerie Finchell.Valerie is the CEO and founder
of Finchell Family Law, whereshe empowers clients to navigate
marriage and divorce toward morevibrant futures. As an
experienced negotiator andlitigator, she has presented
winning arguments beforeCalifornia's Court of Appeal and
(01:12):
continues to advocate for herclient's custodial rights and
financial relief.
Valerie, who graduated pi BetaKappa from UC Santa Barbara and
earned her JD from UC DavisSchool of Law, has been
recognized as a Super LawyersRising Star from 02/2018 through
02/2024. With extensiveexperience helping families in
(01:34):
crisis, she focuses on craftingtailored strategies that protect
children's best interests whiletreating her clients with the
same care and attention shewould give to family. So please
join me in welcoming Valerie tothe Wealthy Woman Lawyer
podcast. Hi, Valerie. It's sogood to have you here.
Valerie (01:51):
Hi, Dania. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm happy
to be here.
Davina (01:54):
Good. I've seen a few of your posts on social medias, and
I thought you would be a greatguest because you've been
talking about growing your lawfirm and how you have
successfully grown your lawfirm. You were telling me that
when you started out, you wereyou felt kind of young, starting
out at 30 to grow your law firm.Tell me what your journey was to
(02:14):
becoming a lawyer, and then whatmade you make a decision to
start your own firm.
Valerie (02:19):
Yeah. I I grew up with a family law attorney mom, and,
you know, my dad's a CPA, and,you know, dinner, and I heard
non confidential discussions offamily law topics, and I thought
I would never wanna do that. ButI yeah. I guess I was an
argumentative little girl. Myparents told me I should go to
(02:40):
law school, so I ended up going.
I thought I wanted to be a DA,but I didn't really like the
gender dynamics in the DA'soffice. So I kinda tried a few
other things, and eventually, Ilanded in family law where I
didn't think I would be, but I Ireally loved it. I loved helping
people in that personal leveland providing that kind of
(03:02):
personal value that I didn'tthink I could get working with
companies or that I didn't feellike I got from before. And, you
know, I had a really amazingmentor eventually, Esther
Lerner. I'm at a boutique familylaw firm in San Francisco, and I
learned how to build up my ownbiz you know, my own caseload,
development activities under amentorship, and eventually, I
(03:23):
kind of spread my wings anddecided to apply.
Davina (03:27):
You mentioned something about gender dynamics. What give
me an idea of what you mean bythat.
Valerie (03:33):
I think when you're a young woman, and I don't know. I
always had, like, a higher boy,then I get kind of I don't know.
More, I don't know, informalmaybe mannerisms. I didn't fit
the mold of a kind of seriousDA, and I think, you know, I I
(03:55):
think that was a part of it,kind of, but that maybe was in
my own head. I don't know.
I interned at the prosecutor'soffice in the Capitol case unit
in DC, and I thought what theywere doing was really cool and
interesting, even though a bitdisturbing. But, yeah, I just
felt this kind of dynamic thereand in other DA's offices where
I interviewed, where it was likea boys club kind of. And I
(04:20):
didn't eventually, I decided Ididn't really wanna be in a boys
club. I didn't want thatadditional struggle to the
struggle of just becoming aseasoned deterrent when law
school hasn't taught you much.So I didn't want kind of the
double whammy.
I decided to kind of goelsewhere, even though I, you
know, did feel passionately atthe time about, you know, making
our community safer and puttingon trial kind of thing.
Davina (04:42):
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think
that's a common, you know,difference between men and
women. Oftentimes, women arekind of in these situations
where we didn't anticipate wewould be in these sort of
situations, and then we have tolook at it and say, okay. What
battles do I wanna fight? AndI'm sure there are a lot of
women lawyers who are listeningto this who can really resonate
(05:03):
with that and probably have hadtheir own experiences.
So I'm glad that you found kindof your home and somebody that
would guide you and mentor you.You went out on your own. You
started your own firm. Whatwould what did that feel like
when you first did that? I mean,what were the thoughts that were
going through your head if youcan think back that far and
remember?
Valerie (05:22):
Yeah. I know that at the time, my you know, my I was
engaged at the time, and myfiance at the time was an
entrepreneur, and he was reallyencouraging of me, which was a
big deal. I think that was a bigreason why I, you know, did it
so soon. And I also had a lot offriends that had started their
(05:43):
own firms and people from my lawschool. And it all kinda helped
me believe it was possible aswell as my mom having her own
law firm.
And so that kind of brought alittle bit of a script for me,
but it was very scary. I reallydidn't wanna disappoint my boss,
my mentor. And I would you know,I was nervous. Am I actually
gonna do this? Or am I gonna endup starting my own firm and then
(06:05):
just laying around and watchingNetflix and not doing anything
because I don't know.
You know? So yeah. There's ainto my head. But I think mostly
it was really exciting to me.Like, all of a sudden, I don't
have to color within the lines.
I can do whatever I want, and Ican become an entrepreneur,
like, on Shark Tank. And I wasjust so excited
Davina (06:21):
to get to
Valerie (06:21):
create something of my own and get to hire whoever I
wanted, and it just felt reallyliberating.
Davina (06:28):
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So tell me how you
started out. Did you start outimmediately? Were you kind of a
solo to begin with and kind ofbuilt to a certain point, or did
you immediately sort of investin it and start hiring people
right away?
Or what did you do? What wasyour approach?
Valerie (06:44):
Yeah. I had a bunch of really high conflict intent
cases that were going to trialor in trial that had been
referred to me personallythrough networking groups I was
in, and all the clients weregonna come with me. So I had a a
pretty significant book ofbusiness just for me, and I I
needed help. And that was partof why I started my own firm.
They really needed an associateattorney where I was at.
(07:06):
I needed a lot of help. So I wasalready kinda on a mission to
find people at the time. I usedCraigslist, which sounds silly,
but I found some really amazing,extremely experienced, like,
multi decade of experiencedattorneys to kinda help me
manage the caseload. And then Ithink a month in, I I found an
associate attorney and aparalegal and a legal assistant,
(07:28):
and I kind of put the firmtogether pretty quickly because
otherwise I would have drowned.And I think that I knew that I
wanted to be more doing the CEOkind of work of creating the
business and developing theteam, And I couldn't do that
with, my boots on the ground,you know, in in the war of
litigation.
Davina (07:48):
That's interesting. What I let me ask you about this
because I've had conversationswith many women law firm owners
who, if particularly if they'reyounger, they have a reticence
to hiring people who are moreexperienced because they are
afraid that there will be somejudgment on them as a lawyer,
(08:12):
that they won't measure up. Theyfeel like they need to know more
than their employees know. Howam I gonna manage somebody who's
older than me or moreexperienced than me? Did you
ever have those thoughts, or didyou consider that, or have any
fear around that?
And if you did, how did you dealwith that?
Valerie (08:30):
Yeah. I think that managing people older than me
can be, you know, a strugglewith impostor syndrome, that
kind of thing. Like, I'm a boss,but, you know, I feel like I
could be her kid or, you know,whatever. But at the same time,
I think the power of startingyour own business is the level
(08:54):
of the people that you hire. Andif you are capping the talent
and abilities at your own, thenI just I can't imagine doing
that because I I really tried toremove my ego from my business.
It's it's not about me. It'sabout serving the clients. And I
think that I'd much rather haveattorneys with thirty plus years
(09:17):
of experience or that arekilling it in court time after
time, or that their true passionis going into battle, you know,
litigating. Then someone like mewhose passion is growing and
managing the business. You know?
Like, I don't want someone likeme, and I don't want someone
less experienced than me. I dothink there is value in hiring
(09:38):
someone with less experiencethat's really gonna look towards
you as a mentor. And I thinkthat's a lot easier done when
you're older for whateverreason. So, yeah, I think my
junior associates have alwaysbeen younger than me. I mean, I
don't think I did thatintentionally, but I think
that's what's worked out.
I think it is harder at least tosometimes to give a lawyer kind
of feedback if someone's olderthan you. So usually if
(10:00):
someone's older than me and theyhave, you know, different
mission or values or differentway of practicing that I don't
like, that that doesn't workout. Right? But I think the goal
is to find people that are thathave your same mission and
values, but are extremely moreexperienced and gifted than you
are so that you can provide thatlevel of value to clients rather
than capping yourself out.
Davina (10:20):
Yeah. No. I think that's great advice. I and it's and and
it surprises me that more peopledon't do that or think that way.
The other thing that sort ofcomes up for a lot of women
lawyers, when they're startingtheir own firm and they're
they're looking at hiring moreexperienced people, they're
going, how can I afford them?
Can I afford them? Because we'retalking, you know, well into 6
figures, you know, sometimes, ahundred and 50, 2 hundred, 3
(10:44):
hundred. Like, there's there's arange of salaries that people
look at, and they sort of freakout. How can I, be sure I'm
gonna be able to pay them? Didthat enter into your thoughts?
And, how did you handle that?
Valerie (10:57):
Yeah. I remember my first associate attorney when
she came when she went frombeing a contract hourly to full
time, I was terrified becauseall of a sudden, her pay wasn't
gonna be capped by her hours. Itwas just gonna be this
guaranteed salary, and what if Istopped bringing in business?
And I think that's when Idiscovered it was really just
about my confidence and mybelief in myself, and the rest
was gonna pan out and be okay.But I think the moment you kind
(11:20):
of tighten up and you believeyou can't do it, that's when you
can't do it.
So I think it's just believingthat it's possible and doing
everything you can withmarketing and business
development and whatever else tokeep it going. But I do think
the more you pay someone, thebetter talent you'll get and the
more buy in you'll get. I don'tthink that's the entire piece of
(11:41):
having a successful employee,but I think that's a pretty big
piece.
Davina (11:45):
What are I just, created a podcast on employee retention.
So I'd love to hear yourthoughts on that. What do you
think are some of the some ofthe factors that go into sort of
getting that buy in and loyaltyfrom your employees?
Valerie (12:00):
Yeah. It's hard because I'm not the person most
knowledgeable, right, that theywould be. Mean, I'm always
guessing what they're thinking,and I don't actually know. But I
think that for me right now, Ihave this team of really high
performing lawyers andparalegals and administrative
staff. And for me, I just try toapproach everything with
(12:22):
curiosity, kindness, andrespect.
And I don't think I have all theanswers. And I I try really hard
not to micromanage or givecritical feedback unless I
really need to. And I try tocelebrate their win. I think
it's been hard for me to reallyput together this high caliber
team, and, you know, you can'tdo that if you have people that
(12:44):
don't share your mission andvalues or aren't practicing in a
manner that you trust. Right?
But I think once you develop asense of trust with people, I
think for me, it's about, youknow, loosening my grip on
everything in order to let themreally thrive and and shine and
feel like they're piece of thesuccess of the business.
Davina (13:03):
Right. Right. You talk about your mission and values.
Tell me a little bit about that.What do you think sets you apart
from other family law firms inyour area in terms of your
values and your your philosophy?
Valerie (13:17):
Yeah. Think that I mean, there's all different ways
to practice family law. I thinkthere's all different kinds of
family law firms. For me,personally, I get really excited
to help people with reallyfamily law issues or really high
stakes where the average firmisn't gonna cut it. And it's
(13:39):
about, you know, puttingtogether a a legal team that is
as passionate about helpingthose kind of people and
equipped to do so.
And I I think that's how westand apart. We don't we don't
just do the average family lawcase. You know, we have
relationships with privatejudges, and everyone that works
for me is, you know, extremelytalented as far as handling
(14:03):
these complex financial cases.It's just where I feel like I've
I've attracted a different kindof caliber of attorney, and
we're in a different league. Butat the same time, I think
there's a big myth in law firmsthat are focused on these
complex, high asset cases wherethey they're so formal that they
(14:24):
stop treating family law clientslike like humans going through
the hardest time in their life.
And so I think it's critical tonot just have the acumen and,
you know, sophistication andlitigation ability to handle
these cases, also have thebedside manner. And I don't
think every family law attorneyis created equally. I think
there's a lot of family lawattorneys that nerd out on
drafting briefs and, you know,that kind of thing and fighting
(14:46):
a chord, and then don't know howto speak with compassion to a
client. And I've interviewed alot of the people, and they
sound great on paper, but youwant someone that can speak to
you how they've handled a clientthat complained about them, or
how they have dealt with someonewith a difficult personality or,
you know, I want clarity that Iwanna know how many domestic
(15:06):
violence cases they've handledbecause there's some firms that
refuse to talk about domesticviolence with clients. Doesn't
mean they haven't helped theclient with domestic violence.
It just means they haven't beenasking the right questions. So I
think it's, you know, reallytaking a more human approach to
knowing kind of the subjectmatter of the kinawa we
practice.
Davina (15:23):
Right. So let's shift gears a little bit and talk
about you your businessdevelopment. Because when you
started out, this is alsosomething that, you know, when
people are starting out, how amI gonna get business? What am I
gonna do? Do I need to be onTikTok all the time?
What what do I need to getbusiness? And I'd like if you
could share with us kind of someof the things you did when you
first started, and then howmaybe that's changed over the
(15:46):
years as you've grown and gottenmore sophisticated and more
sophisticated in your marketingstrategies and also develop this
team? What like, because I thinksometimes people start out, and
it's them, and they're marketingone way, but then they start to
find as I've developed thisteam, how do I leverage that? So
how did you start, and where howare you now with in terms of
(16:06):
your business developmentstrategy?
Valerie (16:09):
Yeah. I think, you know, when I started, was just
so excited. You know? So I I hadbuilt or I, you know, I had a
caseload from the referralsources I'd gotten to know from
a few different, you know,networking groups. So I that
that was kind of what I did.
(16:30):
But I also I think I leveraged,like I don't think Instagram was
around yet. Don't think maybe Idon't think I was using But on
Facebook, you know, I I would,you know, do announcements, I
was excited about my firm. I hada newsletter on Mailchimp from
the beginning just to giveupdates, but I would write it
myself, and I would justoverthink everything. I'd write
my own blogs and overthinkeverything. They were all
(16:51):
terrible.
But, you know, I just I just didthe best I could because I no
idea what I was doing. But Ihad, you know, parties for when
I opened my firm or when I movedto a bigger building. I had,
like, a tropical holiday partyaround, you know, Hanukkah
Christmas every year. I don'tknow. You know, I would just
kind of do whatever I could thatI could think of, but I don't
(17:17):
think there was really a methodto my madness.
Those are sporadic. But after, Ithink, my first year, I I
started using vendors, and Ilearned that the quicker I would
be able to delegate those kindof responsibilities, the better
the content would be becauseit'd be someone that was paying
to have a regular cadence. Evenif it wasn't perfect, it was
better to get something outthere. And I learned that
(17:39):
someone that's not an attorneyand not me is generally gonna
probably have a better, moreengaging social media content or
even newsletter content than I'mgonna have because I'm a boy
that's gonna overthinkeverything and make it too
intellectual. So that's kindathe beginning.
Davina (17:55):
Right. How do you think that contrasts with sort of your
business development strategiesnow that you have a team and
you're sort of promoting notjust you, but the team?
Valerie (18:06):
Yeah. I think, you know, it's changed over time.
You know, when I when I startedmy firm, even though I had a
team, I was still the face ofthe operation, and I just had
kind of a contract help orassociate help behind the scenes
doing drafting, but I was kindof the warrior. Mhmm. And then
as I found as I groomed myassociate attorneys and I found
(18:29):
more experienced, talented, fulltime people, I was able to kinda
take a backseat and focus on,you know, more of the business
side.
And, you know, once I starteddoing that and I kind of talked
to other friends of mine thatwere getting high up in big law
firms, I started to learn whatthe big law firms do that the
family law firms aren't doing,which is really be champions to
(18:52):
their attorneys and to reallypromote them and to really make
them feel special because noone's making attorneys feel
special. We feel terrible aboutourselves all the time. So I
just really saw that as thevital element of being a good
employer and attracting toptalent and keeping good folks,
you know, with my firm. And Ijust think that's really
(19:14):
critical because, you know, theattorneys that work for me now,
they're the first one toundercut something that
happened, and they gettremendous results in court. And
I feel like, you know, applyingPingo up and down and kind of
how they talk to you.
But I think as an employer, ifyou have people that are really
performing well, it's good tokind of focus on those elements
(19:34):
and not just to them as aemployee employer kind of
management, but also in yourmarketing and business
development because it justcomes so naturally when you're
when you're really proud of, youknow, what they've achieved and
who they are and what what theycould bring to the table.
Davina (19:49):
Right. Right. So you had you're a mom of young children.
Tell me about your children.What ages are they?
Valerie (19:57):
Yeah. Noah is almost one and a half, and Emma will be
three in two weeks.
Davina (20:04):
And you were telling me that things, sort of shifted for
you when you became a mom, andin terms of how you what you do
in your business. Tell me alittle bit about what changed
for you.
Valerie (20:16):
Yeah. I think that, you know, one of the another reason
why I started my firm back in02/2017, I think, was my just
knowledge that once I became amom, I'd wanna be all about
being a mom. And I wouldn'twanna have to be a full time
litigator. That'd be toostressful. So it kind of I think
it wasn't really a consciousthought, but I think it's just
always something in the back ofmy head, like, this is part of
(20:38):
my plan.
So I when I decided I was readyto get pregnant, I had really my
firmest pen to set up so Icould, you know, have my
daughter and not have to be in astressful situation and get to
really focus on her. And thatwas glorious. I just got to
raise her for six months with areally great team behind me. But
(21:01):
then I had two attorneys give menotice that they were starting
their own firm when I waspregnant with my son. And so
everything kind of, you know,burned down.
And so I had to or chose torebuild my firm, you know,
during the first year of hislife. And that was really
challenging because, you know,I'm still kind of discovering
(21:26):
who I am. You think youdiscovered who you are after
your first kid, and then youjust got the mum thing down. But
really, I learned after thesecond that I was gonna figure
it out all over again. Sofiguring out kind of who I am
and what I need and thenfiguring out how the law firm
should be built to kinda supportme and make sure, like, my
mission and values andeverything is kinda elevated and
(21:46):
a part of it.
But while it was not the besttiming in my mind as far as
having to rebuild my firm, itdid kind of force me to, you
know, recruit a high performingteam, which I wouldn't have
spent all the time and energydoing had I not had this Phoenix
reelection. Yeah.
Davina (22:06):
Yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned I'm glad that you
brought that up because that isanother fear that people have is
I'm gonna hire these attorneys,and they are going to steal my
clients and go open their ownfirm. What how did you get
through that phase in yourbecause it happens it happens,
(22:27):
to a lot of people, and thensometimes it happens more than
once. But how do you think yougot through that phase
emotionally, and what are someof the things that you did? And
you talk about recruiting, youknow, better talent.
And then also, what kinds ofthing do you think you're do
there's anything that you'redoing now that's different that
might put in place somethingthat it would be unlikely for
(22:49):
that to happen again?
Valerie (22:51):
Yeah. I hate making any decision based fear. And if I'm
making a decision based on fear,I make myself read, like,
mindset books, or I just getirritated with myself, or I go
to therapy. I don't I don'twanna make any decisions based
on fear. Then I'm gonna blow itup anyway.
So I try to just make decisionsbased on love or something
(23:12):
excited to create. But, yeah, II just had that feeling that
this attorney I hired wouldeventually leave because I, you
know, I kinda had to convinceher to work for bit from the
beginning. You know, people whenpeople tell you they are,
believe them. Right. So I I kindof was waiting for the shoe to
drop, and that probablyprevented me from really
(23:32):
building out my firm because itkind of felt this unsettled
feeling.
And now, honestly, afterrebuilding my firm and doubling,
if not more, its size during myson's first year of life, I
think I can do anything. Like,try me. Try your own firm. I'll
(23:53):
be just fine. Like, I I know.
I think for me, what's mostimportant more than how, you
know, seasons will change, youknow, people will leave, people
will stay, cases will go, caseswill stay, everything's a moving
target. But the one thing I cancontrol is my own behavior and
(24:15):
how I'm gonna feel about it. SoI think just always making sure
whatever I'm doing is withintegrity and kindness and
respect, and that that's all Ican do. And if if someone decide
that they're no longer for me,you know, I can just I can only
hope through my own behaviorthat they'll mirror it and be
respectful and kind in themanner they leave, and then I
(24:36):
can wish them, you know, all thebest because in life, not
everyone's with you for ever.Right?
Most people are with you firstthen, and, you know, I I don't
really I have a really hard timebeing angry at people or having
any kind of hate. I just kind ofalways wish them the best and,
you know, like, you That
Davina (24:54):
is that is wonderful advice. And I I I always I often
tell people, you know, if youplan on having a business for
ten, twenty, thirty years,people are going to come and go.
You have to expect people aregonna come and go for all kinds
of reasons that may or may nothave anything to do with you.
And you'll still be there doingyour thing. And, you know, so I
love that you shared your storybecause I think that a lot of
(25:16):
people, if you hadn't sharedthat with thought, oh, well,
just built it and it went greatfor her from the beginning to
the end.
But you had to overcome thischallenge, and you had to do it
at a time when you were a mom ofa toddler and an infant. So
you're, you know, that isreally, quite challenging. Tell
me what kind of you talk aboutbeing the CEO of your business
(25:39):
and sort of running the businessside. Tell me some of the things
that you think are really yourjob to do and some of the things
that you think obviously, thehiring other lawyers, you're
letting go of some of thatlawyering and running the
business. Tell me what are someof the things that you do?
(26:01):
Because a lot of people think tothemselves, well, what would I
do if I were passing off all mywork to people who work for me?
Then what would I do? So tell mewhat are some of the things that
fill your day that you think areimportant for you as the CEO to
do.
Valerie (26:15):
Yeah. I think it's changed over time. When I had
three attorneys working for me,and I was maybe a more green
business owner, you know, Ireviewed every single email that
went out of my firm. I I sawabsolutely everything. And, you
know, for better or for worse,that's just how I ran the
(26:38):
business for a really long time.
And since I've I've grown itwith kind of, you know, these
seasoned high performingattorneys, I, you know, I still
can see every email, because Istill can help break. But I've
tweaked our processes, so Idon't. And I think building that
(26:59):
level of trust to give them thethe banquet to really practice
in the manner that feels mostauthentic to them. But at the
same time, as the businessowner, everyone has to practice
with my value. So I took time todraft, you know, policies and
procedures related to how wecommunicate with clients, with
(27:20):
the cadence, like, what's thetone?
When do clients receivecommunications? How quick is you
know, everything that I youknow, there's certain things
that you assume it's, you know,common knowledge and it never
is. Right? And so it's reallylike writing the script of
what's expected. So then anytimesomeone that works for me
doesn't we don't have a meetingof their minds, then I know, oh,
(27:41):
I need I need to draft a new SOPso they understand because no
one can read my mind, not evenmy husband.
You know? So that's kind ofsomething that I think is really
critical is not just draftingthe policies and procedures
because then no will read them,but really reiterating them and
forcing them and making sureeveryone's trained on them.
Also, still lead our weeklymeetings and go over every
(28:02):
single case. And if anyone hadany possible issue, we discuss
it because I take a personal, Iguess, I still take personal
responsibility for making sureall of our clients have a, like,
you know, five star premierexperience. And if anything's
going on, wanna hear about it.
That's that's really critical tome, I guess. It's probably
(28:23):
something maybe I'll loosen upabout over time, but right now,
I I they'll kinda go throughthat. I feel like I'm
responsible for the brand of myfirm and and how our footprint
on the community and, you know,online. And I'm responsible for
ensuring my attorneys havesupport staff that are
effective, efficient, diligentthat they can rely on. Also,
(28:47):
know attorneys just are tend toburn out and overwork
themselves.
So I take personalresponsibility to check-in with
everyone that works for me tomake sure they're doing okay and
make sure they're takingvacations and see if they need
more support, see if they mightneed an expert on a case that
they haven't thought to use orif they can delegate something
to a consultant or kind of helpthem maybe project manage when
(29:08):
they have too many high conflictintent trials coming up, you
know, because attorneys are kindof perfectionist sometimes in
that regard.
Davina (29:16):
Yeah. Do you have a your billing model, do you have a
billable hour requirement foryour lawyers? Or and do you
charge flat fees, or do you dobillable hours? What do you what
do you do? Because I I a lot oflawyers growing their firms
struggle to hike to get peopleto understand billable hour
(29:37):
requirements and follow billablehour requirements, especially,
you know, if they're givingunlimited PTO or or vacation of
any kind.
Is that anything that you'veever had an issue with? Do you
have a billable hourrequirement? What does that look
like for you?
Valerie (29:51):
Yeah. I like to meet people where they are. So I
don't have some rule of federalfamily law where you have to
bill x amount. If I thinksomeone's the right fit for my
firm and they have experiencehandling, you know, complex high
stakes litigation as well asnegotiating settlement, blah
blah blah, you know, I feel likewe're we have meeting of the
mind. I wanna hire them.
(30:13):
I'll ask them what what theywanna bill. Like, what what do
you usually do? What are youcomfortable with? And they'll
kinda set their salary based onwhat they how they wanna
perform. I don't wanna put asquare peg in a round hole.
Generally, it's a hundred andfifteen hours a month, I think,
but I've I've done less. I'vedone more if they want more
money, and they have a historyof billing more hours. I also do
(30:35):
monthly and quarterly bonuseswhere if they blew it out of the
park and made way more than theythought, then I think they
should make more money becausethe firm's gonna make more
money.
Davina (30:43):
Right. Right. That's that's good to know because I
think that's something that alot of people struggle with if
they've never worked in anenvironment where they're
required to bill, and then theystart a firm, and then they're
like, okay. What do I how do Imeasure what I'm making from
this attorney versus what I'mpaying this attorney, and sort
of setting that. So the billablehour, even if they're flat
(31:04):
feeing, they're using that as aguide.
It's good to hear what somebodyelse is doing with that. So if
you were, you have gone afterspecifically, high conflict
cases, high net worth cases. Isthere a reason why you've sort
of chosen that area?
Valerie (31:25):
Yeah. I think that wasn't really my plan, but I
have just found that the mostkind of sophisticated, high
caliber attorneys that I've metor that I've interviewed with
me, they enjoy solvingcomplicated problems, and they
don't wanna be bored. And so Iwanna attract those kinds of
(31:48):
cases to keep, you know, to keepto keep the legal team wanting
to work for me. It's not that wedon't, you know, do prenups and
postnups and, you know,occasionally, we get an
uncontested divorce. But I I dothink that if you're not you're
not prioritizing those kinds ofcases, then you're probably not
(32:11):
handling them in the expertmanner they need.
And I think those are the mostdifficult kind of cases to
handle as as a family law firm,in my opinion. So I wanna make
sure that, you know, the peopleI hire and what we do is our
best to work specifically withthose kind of cases, because
then I know the rest will be,like, small potatoes.
Davina (32:27):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're networking in certain circles to
attract those cases. Right? Whatwhat are what what are some of
the things that you're doing toget visible among your ideal
client?
How do they find out about you?
Valerie (32:44):
I mean, I've been investing in SEO for a really
long time. So most people justGoogle San Francisco Divorce
Attorney, I think, and they landon my firm and they schedule a
consult. But, yeah, honestly,since I had kids, I haven't done
a lot of the networking stuffthat I used to do, but I am kind
(33:06):
of resurfacing. But it's reallyhonestly just for my own
enjoyment more than bringing inmore business, but I'm sure that
will be the result. I think thatwhen you network from a position
of what will make be fun foryou, I think you do end up
meeting people that, you know,like, interest you in your free
business versus just going tostuff to try to get referrals
(33:29):
because some of your stuff canbe so boring and painful.
So I think it's just figuringout what actually lights you up.
Like, I'm speaking at a thingfor the Bar Association on how
to be a rainmaker, which is socool. It's, like, four other
women that are, like, killing itat their firms, and that's,
like, exciting to me. You know?So it's just kind of that kind
of stuff that I just, like, getexcited to do in general.
Davina (33:49):
Yeah. Yeah. I find it interesting because a lot of
first of all, there's the familylawyer. People say that you I
had a mentor who said to me,people either love it or they
hate it. Right?
So it's it's a very divisivesort of practice area in terms
of people practicing it. But Ifind it interesting because I, I
know a lot of women lawyers,they're like, oh, I really don't
(34:09):
want these high conflict cases.If somebody comes into me and
says their ex is a narcissist, Iimmediately do not want them as
a client. So I find itinteresting for you that this is
something that really lights youup and something that you really
enjoy having for your law firmand that your team really enjoys
from the aspect of the legalcomplexity of it. Right?
(34:30):
Sounds like that you that's thewhere you guys are coming from
is this idea that this is a thisis a legally interesting case
when we have high net worth,high conflict situation going
on.
Valerie (34:43):
I think it's legally interesting, but it's also the
amount of value you can providesomeone from a human level is
staggering. I guess I completelydisagree with this whole belief
that when a when a clientcomplains about their spouse
being they're kind of full ofit. Like, I kind of I hear it
(35:05):
all the time, and I just I feelcompletely the opposite. It's
not to say that we haven't hadcalls with people that have
unrealistic expectations and,you know, are complaining about
their spouse's behavior andlabeling it in a manner that's
inappropriate. But I I do reallybelieve that, you know, some of
the situations that make me feelthe most, that make me feel like
(35:27):
I'm gonna help this personrelate to when there's an
imbalance in power dynamics in arelationship where, you know,
whether it's the man or thewoman, one person is really
feeling unsafe and takenadvantage of.
And often mental health issuesare at play, and often it is a
very difficult personality. AndI think that in order to have a
soft spot in your heart forthese kind of cases, you likely
(35:49):
need some kind of back personstory. Right? But I think if you
have one, then you can be sopowerful and really have such a
dramatic impact, you know, on aclient's life that that they'll
never forget.
Davina (36:02):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think really the takeaway from this is
getting really understandingwhat you want to do and how you
wanna serve and how you wannashow up and help your clients
and what is gonna be create themost impact for you in your life
in in through your law firm, youknow, and choosing that. And it
sounds like you've really pickedsomething that you are really
(36:23):
passionate about and reallylove. So you're gonna be on this
panel talking about rainmaking.
Give us a couple of rainmakingtips.
Valerie (36:31):
Okay. I think, to me personally, I think it's
important to just be yourauthentic self, as far as how
you show up in social media oryour newsletter or how you
communicate with other, youknow, lawyers or referral
sources. I think that's reallyimportant. The second one is I
(36:51):
think it depends on the size ofyour business. I really hate to
see, you know, solopractitioners.
Maybe they're making, like,$200, and they're investing in,
like, crazy expensive Google Adsand SEO and that kind of stuff.
I I think you have to do themarketing you could afford. And
in until you really have abusiness with associates
(37:13):
generating revenue for you, I Ithink it's better to do, like,
kind of boots on the groundmarketing that's not gonna, you
know, make you poor and gounder. I think another thing
that's important for brainmaking is being really strategic
and thinking about who your, youknow, target client is. There's
(37:33):
there's just so many things youcan do.
Right? You have podcasts. Youcould do YouTube series. You
could do webinars. You know?
But I think if you make itsimple and you try to find what
you can do to attract your, youknow, your favorite kind of
clients, I think that's usuallythe best. And also, look into
what the ROI is on on whatyou're doing. A lot of people do
webinars, and they get they getknocked and back. It's just busy
(37:55):
work. Yeah.
Yeah. So You know, I Idefinitely something to think
about. And I think the lastthing is just look at try to
find firm throughout the countrythat are killing it and doing
five times better than you are.And I think that, at least,
that's always given me hope andalso kind of excitement about
(38:16):
what it could be doing andhelped me not be I don't know.
Not have a ceiling to my dreams,you know, seeing for me, I think
other women that are doingreally cool, big things with
their law practices.
Because I think winning your ownlaw firm is one of the, I think,
few opportunities for lawyerwomen to really get to practice
(38:39):
law on their own terms, whetheryou wanna practice or not, and
really create a customizedexperience, not just for your
clients and not just for youremployees, but more for for
yourself.
Davina (38:51):
Right. Right. I think it's a you know, for so long,
women haven't had opportunities.They've had to work up a ladder
in a world that doesn't servethem. And I think we're seeing a
shift in that, especially sincethe pandemic.
A lot more women are graduatingfrom law school and starting
their own businesses right outof law school or shortly out of
law school. And they're creatingthe kinds of businesses that
(39:12):
they want to be a part of andwant to see. And it sounds like
that's something you've done. SoI really appreciate you sharing
your story with us. I know a lotof people are gonna be inspired
by hearing it.
Tell us how we can connect withyou if we want to, reach out to
you.
Valerie (39:27):
Yep. You can find me on LinkedIn, Valerie Central. You
can go to my website, I don'tknow, www.centralfamilylaw.com.
You can find me there. You couldemail, I guess,
admin@VentoFamilyLaw.com, and myoffice manager will make sure we
respond to you.
Yeah. But, yeah, it's it'sreally been a pleasure speaking
(39:50):
on your podcast, Sabina. Ialways love working out what
you're doing on social media andeverything else to to grow your
business and everything you haveto say to empower, you know,
other women lawyers to reallytake control of their lives and
build out their own firm.
Davina (40:05):
Thank you. I was really inspired by your story, so I'm
so glad you decided to come onand share it with us. And, this
will be coming out in the nextcouple of weeks, so listen for
it. Everybody's gonna wanna loveto hear hear this story.
Valerie (40:17):
Perfect. Thank you.
Intro (40:18):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:43):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
here's Devina.
Davina (00:49):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the wealthy
woman lawyer podcast. I'm yourhost, Devina Frederick. And my
guest today is Valerie Finchell.Valerie is the CEO and founder
of Finchell Family Law, whereshe empowers clients to navigate
marriage and divorce toward morevibrant futures. As an
experienced negotiator andlitigator, she has presented
winning arguments beforeCalifornia's Court of Appeal and
(01:12):
continues to advocate for herclient's custodial rights and
financial relief.
Valerie, who graduated pi BetaKappa from UC Santa Barbara and
earned her JD from UC DavisSchool of Law, has been
recognized as a Super LawyersRising Star from 02/2018 through
02/2024. With extensiveexperience helping families in
(01:34):
crisis, she focuses on craftingtailored strategies that protect
children's best interests whiletreating her clients with the
same care and attention shewould give to family. So please
join me in welcoming Valerie tothe Wealthy Woman Lawyer
podcast. Hi, Valerie. It's sogood to have you here.
Valerie (01:51):
Hi, Dania. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm happy
to be here.
Davina (01:54):
Good. I've seen a few of your posts on social medias, and
I thought you would be a greatguest because you've been
talking about growing your lawfirm and how you have
successfully grown your lawfirm. You were telling me that
when you started out, you wereyou felt kind of young, starting
out at 30 to grow your law firm.Tell me what your journey was to
(02:14):
becoming a lawyer, and then whatmade you make a decision to
start your own firm.
Valerie (02:19):
Yeah. I I grew up with a family law attorney mom, and,
you know, my dad's a CPA, and,you know, dinner, and I heard
non confidential discussions offamily law topics, and I thought
I would never wanna do that. ButI yeah. I guess I was an
argumentative little girl. Myparents told me I should go to
(02:40):
law school, so I ended up going.
I thought I wanted to be a DA,but I didn't really like the
gender dynamics in the DA'soffice. So I kinda tried a few
other things, and eventually, Ilanded in family law where I
didn't think I would be, but I Ireally loved it. I loved helping
people in that personal leveland providing that kind of
(03:02):
personal value that I didn'tthink I could get working with
companies or that I didn't feellike I got from before. And, you
know, I had a really amazingmentor eventually, Esther
Lerner. I'm at a boutique familylaw firm in San Francisco, and I
learned how to build up my ownbiz you know, my own caseload,
development activities under amentorship, and eventually, I
(03:23):
kind of spread my wings anddecided to apply.
Davina (03:27):
You mentioned something about gender dynamics. What give
me an idea of what you mean bythat.
Valerie (03:33):
I think when you're a young woman, and I don't know. I
always had, like, a higher boy,then I get kind of I don't know.
More, I don't know, informalmaybe mannerisms. I didn't fit
the mold of a kind of seriousDA, and I think, you know, I I
(03:55):
think that was a part of it,kind of, but that maybe was in
my own head. I don't know.
I interned at the prosecutor'soffice in the Capitol case unit
in DC, and I thought what theywere doing was really cool and
interesting, even though a bitdisturbing. But, yeah, I just
felt this kind of dynamic thereand in other DA's offices where
I interviewed, where it was likea boys club kind of. And I
(04:20):
didn't eventually, I decided Ididn't really wanna be in a boys
club. I didn't want thatadditional struggle to the
struggle of just becoming aseasoned deterrent when law
school hasn't taught you much.So I didn't want kind of the
double whammy.
I decided to kind of goelsewhere, even though I, you
know, did feel passionately atthe time about, you know, making
our community safer and puttingon trial kind of thing.
Davina (04:42):
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think
that's a common, you know,difference between men and
women. Oftentimes, women arekind of in these situations
where we didn't anticipate wewould be in these sort of
situations, and then we have tolook at it and say, okay. What
battles do I wanna fight? AndI'm sure there are a lot of
women lawyers who are listeningto this who can really resonate
(05:03):
with that and probably have hadtheir own experiences.
So I'm glad that you found kindof your home and somebody that
would guide you and mentor you.You went out on your own. You
started your own firm. Whatwould what did that feel like
when you first did that? I mean,what were the thoughts that were
going through your head if youcan think back that far and
remember?
Valerie (05:22):
Yeah. I know that at the time, my you know, my I was
engaged at the time, and myfiance at the time was an
entrepreneur, and he was reallyencouraging of me, which was a
big deal. I think that was a bigreason why I, you know, did it
so soon. And I also had a lot offriends that had started their
(05:43):
own firms and people from my lawschool. And it all kinda helped
me believe it was possible aswell as my mom having her own
law firm.
And so that kind of brought alittle bit of a script for me,
but it was very scary. I reallydidn't wanna disappoint my boss,
my mentor. And I would you know,I was nervous. Am I actually
gonna do this? Or am I gonna endup starting my own firm and then
(06:05):
just laying around and watchingNetflix and not doing anything
because I don't know.
You know? So yeah. There's ainto my head. But I think mostly
it was really exciting to me.Like, all of a sudden, I don't
have to color within the lines.
I can do whatever I want, and Ican become an entrepreneur,
like, on Shark Tank. And I wasjust so excited
Davina (06:21):
to get to
Valerie (06:21):
create something of my own and get to hire whoever I
wanted, and it just felt reallyliberating.
Davina (06:28):
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So tell me how you
started out. Did you start outimmediately? Were you kind of a
solo to begin with and kind ofbuilt to a certain point, or did
you immediately sort of investin it and start hiring people
right away?
Or what did you do? What wasyour approach?
Valerie (06:44):
Yeah. I had a bunch of really high conflict intent
cases that were going to trialor in trial that had been
referred to me personallythrough networking groups I was
in, and all the clients weregonna come with me. So I had a a
pretty significant book ofbusiness just for me, and I I
needed help. And that was partof why I started my own firm.
They really needed an associateattorney where I was at.
(07:06):
I needed a lot of help. So I wasalready kinda on a mission to
find people at the time. I usedCraigslist, which sounds silly,
but I found some really amazing,extremely experienced, like,
multi decade of experiencedattorneys to kinda help me
manage the caseload. And then Ithink a month in, I I found an
associate attorney and aparalegal and a legal assistant,
(07:28):
and I kind of put the firmtogether pretty quickly because
otherwise I would have drowned.And I think that I knew that I
wanted to be more doing the CEOkind of work of creating the
business and developing theteam, And I couldn't do that
with, my boots on the ground,you know, in in the war of
litigation.
Davina (07:48):
That's interesting. What I let me ask you about this
because I've had conversationswith many women law firm owners
who, if particularly if they'reyounger, they have a reticence
to hiring people who are moreexperienced because they are
afraid that there will be somejudgment on them as a lawyer,
(08:12):
that they won't measure up. Theyfeel like they need to know more
than their employees know. Howam I gonna manage somebody who's
older than me or moreexperienced than me? Did you
ever have those thoughts, or didyou consider that, or have any
fear around that?
And if you did, how did you dealwith that?
Valerie (08:30):
Yeah. I think that managing people older than me
can be, you know, a strugglewith impostor syndrome, that
kind of thing. Like, I'm a boss,but, you know, I feel like I
could be her kid or, you know,whatever. But at the same time,
I think the power of startingyour own business is the level
(08:54):
of the people that you hire. Andif you are capping the talent
and abilities at your own, thenI just I can't imagine doing
that because I I really tried toremove my ego from my business.
It's it's not about me. It'sabout serving the clients. And I
think that I'd much rather haveattorneys with thirty plus years
(09:17):
of experience or that arekilling it in court time after
time, or that their true passionis going into battle, you know,
litigating. Then someone like mewhose passion is growing and
managing the business. You know?
Like, I don't want someone likeme, and I don't want someone
less experienced than me. I dothink there is value in hiring
(09:38):
someone with less experiencethat's really gonna look towards
you as a mentor. And I thinkthat's a lot easier done when
you're older for whateverreason. So, yeah, I think my
junior associates have alwaysbeen younger than me. I mean, I
don't think I did thatintentionally, but I think
that's what's worked out.
I think it is harder at least tosometimes to give a lawyer kind
of feedback if someone's olderthan you. So usually if
(10:00):
someone's older than me and theyhave, you know, different
mission or values or differentway of practicing that I don't
like, that that doesn't workout. Right? But I think the goal
is to find people that are thathave your same mission and
values, but are extremely moreexperienced and gifted than you
are so that you can provide thatlevel of value to clients rather
than capping yourself out.
Davina (10:20):
Yeah. No. I think that's great advice. I and it's and and
it surprises me that more peopledon't do that or think that way.
The other thing that sort ofcomes up for a lot of women
lawyers, when they're startingtheir own firm and they're
they're looking at hiring moreexperienced people, they're
going, how can I afford them?
Can I afford them? Because we'retalking, you know, well into 6
figures, you know, sometimes, ahundred and 50, 2 hundred, 3
(10:44):
hundred. Like, there's there's arange of salaries that people
look at, and they sort of freakout. How can I, be sure I'm
gonna be able to pay them? Didthat enter into your thoughts?
And, how did you handle that?
Valerie (10:57):
Yeah. I remember my first associate attorney when
she came when she went frombeing a contract hourly to full
time, I was terrified becauseall of a sudden, her pay wasn't
gonna be capped by her hours. Itwas just gonna be this
guaranteed salary, and what if Istopped bringing in business?
And I think that's when Idiscovered it was really just
about my confidence and mybelief in myself, and the rest
was gonna pan out and be okay.But I think the moment you kind
(11:20):
of tighten up and you believeyou can't do it, that's when you
can't do it.
So I think it's just believingthat it's possible and doing
everything you can withmarketing and business
development and whatever else tokeep it going. But I do think
the more you pay someone, thebetter talent you'll get and the
more buy in you'll get. I don'tthink that's the entire piece of
(11:41):
having a successful employee,but I think that's a pretty big
piece.
Davina (11:45):
What are I just, created a podcast on employee retention.
So I'd love to hear yourthoughts on that. What do you
think are some of the some ofthe factors that go into sort of
getting that buy in and loyaltyfrom your employees?
Valerie (12:00):
Yeah. It's hard because I'm not the person most
knowledgeable, right, that theywould be. Mean, I'm always
guessing what they're thinking,and I don't actually know. But I
think that for me right now, Ihave this team of really high
performing lawyers andparalegals and administrative
staff. And for me, I just try toapproach everything with
(12:22):
curiosity, kindness, andrespect.
And I don't think I have all theanswers. And I I try really hard
not to micromanage or givecritical feedback unless I
really need to. And I try tocelebrate their win. I think
it's been hard for me to reallyput together this high caliber
team, and, you know, you can'tdo that if you have people that
(12:44):
don't share your mission andvalues or aren't practicing in a
manner that you trust. Right?
But I think once you develop asense of trust with people, I
think for me, it's about, youknow, loosening my grip on
everything in order to let themreally thrive and and shine and
feel like they're piece of thesuccess of the business.
Davina (13:03):
Right. Right. You talk about your mission and values.
Tell me a little bit about that.What do you think sets you apart
from other family law firms inyour area in terms of your
values and your your philosophy?
Valerie (13:17):
Yeah. Think that I mean, there's all different ways
to practice family law. I thinkthere's all different kinds of
family law firms. For me,personally, I get really excited
to help people with reallyfamily law issues or really high
stakes where the average firmisn't gonna cut it. And it's
(13:39):
about, you know, puttingtogether a a legal team that is
as passionate about helpingthose kind of people and
equipped to do so.
And I I think that's how westand apart. We don't we don't
just do the average family lawcase. You know, we have
relationships with privatejudges, and everyone that works
for me is, you know, extremelytalented as far as handling
(14:03):
these complex financial cases.It's just where I feel like I've
I've attracted a different kindof caliber of attorney, and
we're in a different league. Butat the same time, I think
there's a big myth in law firmsthat are focused on these
complex, high asset cases wherethey they're so formal that they
(14:24):
stop treating family law clientslike like humans going through
the hardest time in their life.
And so I think it's critical tonot just have the acumen and,
you know, sophistication andlitigation ability to handle
these cases, also have thebedside manner. And I don't
think every family law attorneyis created equally. I think
there's a lot of family lawattorneys that nerd out on
drafting briefs and, you know,that kind of thing and fighting
(14:46):
a chord, and then don't know howto speak with compassion to a
client. And I've interviewed alot of the people, and they
sound great on paper, but youwant someone that can speak to
you how they've handled a clientthat complained about them, or
how they have dealt with someonewith a difficult personality or,
you know, I want clarity that Iwanna know how many domestic
(15:06):
violence cases they've handledbecause there's some firms that
refuse to talk about domesticviolence with clients. Doesn't
mean they haven't helped theclient with domestic violence.
It just means they haven't beenasking the right questions. So I
think it's, you know, reallytaking a more human approach to
knowing kind of the subjectmatter of the kinawa we
practice.
Davina (15:23):
Right. So let's shift gears a little bit and talk
about you your businessdevelopment. Because when you
started out, this is alsosomething that, you know, when
people are starting out, how amI gonna get business? What am I
gonna do? Do I need to be onTikTok all the time?
What what do I need to getbusiness? And I'd like if you
could share with us kind of someof the things you did when you
first started, and then howmaybe that's changed over the
(15:46):
years as you've grown and gottenmore sophisticated and more
sophisticated in your marketingstrategies and also develop this
team? What like, because I thinksometimes people start out, and
it's them, and they're marketingone way, but then they start to
find as I've developed thisteam, how do I leverage that? So
how did you start, and where howare you now with in terms of
(16:06):
your business developmentstrategy?
Valerie (16:09):
Yeah. I think, you know, when I started, was just
so excited. You know? So I I hadbuilt or I, you know, I had a
caseload from the referralsources I'd gotten to know from
a few different, you know,networking groups. So I that
that was kind of what I did.
(16:30):
But I also I think I leveraged,like I don't think Instagram was
around yet. Don't think maybe Idon't think I was using But on
Facebook, you know, I I would,you know, do announcements, I
was excited about my firm. I hada newsletter on Mailchimp from
the beginning just to giveupdates, but I would write it
myself, and I would justoverthink everything. I'd write
my own blogs and overthinkeverything. They were all
(16:51):
terrible.
But, you know, I just I just didthe best I could because I no
idea what I was doing. But Ihad, you know, parties for when
I opened my firm or when I movedto a bigger building. I had,
like, a tropical holiday partyaround, you know, Hanukkah
Christmas every year. I don'tknow. You know, I would just
kind of do whatever I could thatI could think of, but I don't
(17:17):
think there was really a methodto my madness.
Those are sporadic. But after, Ithink, my first year, I I
started using vendors, and Ilearned that the quicker I would
be able to delegate those kindof responsibilities, the better
the content would be becauseit'd be someone that was paying
to have a regular cadence. Evenif it wasn't perfect, it was
better to get something outthere. And I learned that
(17:39):
someone that's not an attorneyand not me is generally gonna
probably have a better, moreengaging social media content or
even newsletter content than I'mgonna have because I'm a boy
that's gonna overthinkeverything and make it too
intellectual. So that's kindathe beginning.
Davina (17:55):
Right. How do you think that contrasts with sort of your
business development strategiesnow that you have a team and
you're sort of promoting notjust you, but the team?
Valerie (18:06):
Yeah. I think, you know, it's changed over time.
You know, when I when I startedmy firm, even though I had a
team, I was still the face ofthe operation, and I just had
kind of a contract help orassociate help behind the scenes
doing drafting, but I was kindof the warrior. Mhmm. And then
as I found as I groomed myassociate attorneys and I found
(18:29):
more experienced, talented, fulltime people, I was able to kinda
take a backseat and focus on,you know, more of the business
side.
And, you know, once I starteddoing that and I kind of talked
to other friends of mine thatwere getting high up in big law
firms, I started to learn whatthe big law firms do that the
family law firms aren't doing,which is really be champions to
(18:52):
their attorneys and to reallypromote them and to really make
them feel special because noone's making attorneys feel
special. We feel terrible aboutourselves all the time. So I
just really saw that as thevital element of being a good
employer and attracting toptalent and keeping good folks,
you know, with my firm. And Ijust think that's really
(19:14):
critical because, you know, theattorneys that work for me now,
they're the first one toundercut something that
happened, and they gettremendous results in court. And
I feel like, you know, applyingPingo up and down and kind of
how they talk to you.
But I think as an employer, ifyou have people that are really
performing well, it's good tokind of focus on those elements
(19:34):
and not just to them as aemployee employer kind of
management, but also in yourmarketing and business
development because it justcomes so naturally when you're
when you're really proud of, youknow, what they've achieved and
who they are and what what theycould bring to the table.
Davina (19:49):
Right. Right. So you had you're a mom of young children.
Tell me about your children.What ages are they?
Valerie (19:57):
Yeah. Noah is almost one and a half, and Emma will be
three in two weeks.
Davina (20:04):
And you were telling me that things, sort of shifted for
you when you became a mom, andin terms of how you what you do
in your business. Tell me alittle bit about what changed
for you.
Valerie (20:16):
Yeah. I think that, you know, one of the another reason
why I started my firm back in02/2017, I think, was my just
knowledge that once I became amom, I'd wanna be all about
being a mom. And I wouldn'twanna have to be a full time
litigator. That'd be toostressful. So it kind of I think
it wasn't really a consciousthought, but I think it's just
always something in the back ofmy head, like, this is part of
(20:38):
my plan.
So I when I decided I was readyto get pregnant, I had really my
firmest pen to set up so Icould, you know, have my
daughter and not have to be in astressful situation and get to
really focus on her. And thatwas glorious. I just got to
raise her for six months with areally great team behind me. But
(21:01):
then I had two attorneys give menotice that they were starting
their own firm when I waspregnant with my son. And so
everything kind of, you know,burned down.
And so I had to or chose torebuild my firm, you know,
during the first year of hislife. And that was really
challenging because, you know,I'm still kind of discovering
(21:26):
who I am. You think youdiscovered who you are after
your first kid, and then youjust got the mum thing down. But
really, I learned after thesecond that I was gonna figure
it out all over again. Sofiguring out kind of who I am
and what I need and thenfiguring out how the law firm
should be built to kinda supportme and make sure, like, my
mission and values andeverything is kinda elevated and
(21:46):
a part of it.
But while it was not the besttiming in my mind as far as
having to rebuild my firm, itdid kind of force me to, you
know, recruit a high performingteam, which I wouldn't have
spent all the time and energydoing had I not had this Phoenix
reelection. Yeah.
Davina (22:06):
Yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned I'm glad that you
brought that up because that isanother fear that people have is
I'm gonna hire these attorneys,and they are going to steal my
clients and go open their ownfirm. What how did you get
through that phase in yourbecause it happens it happens,
(22:27):
to a lot of people, and thensometimes it happens more than
once. But how do you think yougot through that phase
emotionally, and what are someof the things that you did? And
you talk about recruiting, youknow, better talent.
And then also, what kinds ofthing do you think you're do
there's anything that you'redoing now that's different that
might put in place somethingthat it would be unlikely for
(22:49):
that to happen again?
Valerie (22:51):
Yeah. I hate making any decision based fear. And if I'm
making a decision based on fear,I make myself read, like,
mindset books, or I just getirritated with myself, or I go
to therapy. I don't I don'twanna make any decisions based
on fear. Then I'm gonna blow itup anyway.
So I try to just make decisionsbased on love or something
(23:12):
excited to create. But, yeah, II just had that feeling that
this attorney I hired wouldeventually leave because I, you
know, I kinda had to convinceher to work for bit from the
beginning. You know, people whenpeople tell you they are,
believe them. Right. So I I kindof was waiting for the shoe to
drop, and that probablyprevented me from really
(23:32):
building out my firm because itkind of felt this unsettled
feeling.
And now, honestly, afterrebuilding my firm and doubling,
if not more, its size during myson's first year of life, I
think I can do anything. Like,try me. Try your own firm. I'll
(23:53):
be just fine. Like, I I know.
I think for me, what's mostimportant more than how, you
know, seasons will change, youknow, people will leave, people
will stay, cases will go, caseswill stay, everything's a moving
target. But the one thing I cancontrol is my own behavior and
(24:15):
how I'm gonna feel about it. SoI think just always making sure
whatever I'm doing is withintegrity and kindness and
respect, and that that's all Ican do. And if if someone decide
that they're no longer for me,you know, I can just I can only
hope through my own behaviorthat they'll mirror it and be
respectful and kind in themanner they leave, and then I
(24:36):
can wish them, you know, all thebest because in life, not
everyone's with you for ever.Right?
Most people are with you firstthen, and, you know, I I don't
really I have a really hard timebeing angry at people or having
any kind of hate. I just kind ofalways wish them the best and,
you know, like, you That
Davina (24:54):
is that is wonderful advice. And I I I always I often
tell people, you know, if youplan on having a business for
ten, twenty, thirty years,people are going to come and go.
You have to expect people aregonna come and go for all kinds
of reasons that may or may nothave anything to do with you.
And you'll still be there doingyour thing. And, you know, so I
love that you shared your storybecause I think that a lot of
(25:16):
people, if you hadn't sharedthat with thought, oh, well,
just built it and it went greatfor her from the beginning to
the end.
But you had to overcome thischallenge, and you had to do it
at a time when you were a mom ofa toddler and an infant. So
you're, you know, that isreally, quite challenging. Tell
me what kind of you talk aboutbeing the CEO of your business
(25:39):
and sort of running the businessside. Tell me some of the things
that you think are really yourjob to do and some of the things
that you think obviously, thehiring other lawyers, you're
letting go of some of thatlawyering and running the
business. Tell me what are someof the things that you do?
(26:01):
Because a lot of people think tothemselves, well, what would I
do if I were passing off all mywork to people who work for me?
Then what would I do? So tell mewhat are some of the things that
fill your day that you think areimportant for you as the CEO to
do.
Valerie (26:15):
Yeah. I think it's changed over time. When I had
three attorneys working for me,and I was maybe a more green
business owner, you know, Ireviewed every single email that
went out of my firm. I I sawabsolutely everything. And, you
know, for better or for worse,that's just how I ran the
(26:38):
business for a really long time.
And since I've I've grown itwith kind of, you know, these
seasoned high performingattorneys, I, you know, I still
can see every email, because Istill can help break. But I've
tweaked our processes, so Idon't. And I think building that
(26:59):
level of trust to give them thethe banquet to really practice
in the manner that feels mostauthentic to them. But at the
same time, as the businessowner, everyone has to practice
with my value. So I took time todraft, you know, policies and
procedures related to how wecommunicate with clients, with
(27:20):
the cadence, like, what's thetone?
When do clients receivecommunications? How quick is you
know, everything that I youknow, there's certain things
that you assume it's, you know,common knowledge and it never
is. Right? And so it's reallylike writing the script of
what's expected. So then anytimesomeone that works for me
doesn't we don't have a meetingof their minds, then I know, oh,
(27:41):
I need I need to draft a new SOPso they understand because no
one can read my mind, not evenmy husband.
You know? So that's kind ofsomething that I think is really
critical is not just draftingthe policies and procedures
because then no will read them,but really reiterating them and
forcing them and making sureeveryone's trained on them.
Also, still lead our weeklymeetings and go over every
(28:02):
single case. And if anyone hadany possible issue, we discuss
it because I take a personal, Iguess, I still take personal
responsibility for making sureall of our clients have a, like,
you know, five star premierexperience. And if anything's
going on, wanna hear about it.
That's that's really critical tome, I guess. It's probably
(28:23):
something maybe I'll loosen upabout over time, but right now,
I I they'll kinda go throughthat. I feel like I'm
responsible for the brand of myfirm and and how our footprint
on the community and, you know,online. And I'm responsible for
ensuring my attorneys havesupport staff that are
effective, efficient, diligentthat they can rely on. Also,
(28:47):
know attorneys just are tend toburn out and overwork
themselves.
So I take personalresponsibility to check-in with
everyone that works for me tomake sure they're doing okay and
make sure they're takingvacations and see if they need
more support, see if they mightneed an expert on a case that
they haven't thought to use orif they can delegate something
to a consultant or kind of helpthem maybe project manage when
(29:08):
they have too many high conflictintent trials coming up, you
know, because attorneys are kindof perfectionist sometimes in
that regard.
Davina (29:16):
Yeah. Do you have a your billing model, do you have a
billable hour requirement foryour lawyers? Or and do you
charge flat fees, or do you dobillable hours? What do you what
do you do? Because I I a lot oflawyers growing their firms
struggle to hike to get peopleto understand billable hour
(29:37):
requirements and follow billablehour requirements, especially,
you know, if they're givingunlimited PTO or or vacation of
any kind.
Is that anything that you'veever had an issue with? Do you
have a billable hourrequirement? What does that look
like for you?
Valerie (29:51):
Yeah. I like to meet people where they are. So I
don't have some rule of federalfamily law where you have to
bill x amount. If I thinksomeone's the right fit for my
firm and they have experiencehandling, you know, complex high
stakes litigation as well asnegotiating settlement, blah
blah blah, you know, I feel likewe're we have meeting of the
mind. I wanna hire them.
(30:13):
I'll ask them what what theywanna bill. Like, what what do
you usually do? What are youcomfortable with? And they'll
kinda set their salary based onwhat they how they wanna
perform. I don't wanna put asquare peg in a round hole.
Generally, it's a hundred andfifteen hours a month, I think,
but I've I've done less. I'vedone more if they want more
money, and they have a historyof billing more hours. I also do
(30:35):
monthly and quarterly bonuseswhere if they blew it out of the
park and made way more than theythought, then I think they
should make more money becausethe firm's gonna make more
money.
Davina (30:43):
Right. Right. That's that's good to know because I
think that's something that alot of people struggle with if
they've never worked in anenvironment where they're
required to bill, and then theystart a firm, and then they're
like, okay. What do I how do Imeasure what I'm making from
this attorney versus what I'mpaying this attorney, and sort
of setting that. So the billablehour, even if they're flat
(31:04):
feeing, they're using that as aguide.
It's good to hear what somebodyelse is doing with that. So if
you were, you have gone afterspecifically, high conflict
cases, high net worth cases. Isthere a reason why you've sort
of chosen that area?
Valerie (31:25):
Yeah. I think that wasn't really my plan, but I
have just found that the mostkind of sophisticated, high
caliber attorneys that I've metor that I've interviewed with
me, they enjoy solvingcomplicated problems, and they
don't wanna be bored. And so Iwanna attract those kinds of
(31:48):
cases to keep, you know, to keepto keep the legal team wanting
to work for me. It's not that wedon't, you know, do prenups and
postnups and, you know,occasionally, we get an
uncontested divorce. But I I dothink that if you're not you're
not prioritizing those kinds ofcases, then you're probably not
(32:11):
handling them in the expertmanner they need.
And I think those are the mostdifficult kind of cases to
handle as as a family law firm,in my opinion. So I wanna make
sure that, you know, the peopleI hire and what we do is our
best to work specifically withthose kind of cases, because
then I know the rest will be,like, small potatoes.
Davina (32:27):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're networking in certain circles to
attract those cases. Right? Whatwhat are what what are some of
the things that you're doing toget visible among your ideal
client?
How do they find out about you?
Valerie (32:44):
I mean, I've been investing in SEO for a really
long time. So most people justGoogle San Francisco Divorce
Attorney, I think, and they landon my firm and they schedule a
consult. But, yeah, honestly,since I had kids, I haven't done
a lot of the networking stuffthat I used to do, but I am kind
(33:06):
of resurfacing. But it's reallyhonestly just for my own
enjoyment more than bringing inmore business, but I'm sure that
will be the result. I think thatwhen you network from a position
of what will make be fun foryou, I think you do end up
meeting people that, you know,like, interest you in your free
business versus just going tostuff to try to get referrals
(33:29):
because some of your stuff canbe so boring and painful.
So I think it's just figuringout what actually lights you up.
Like, I'm speaking at a thingfor the Bar Association on how
to be a rainmaker, which is socool. It's, like, four other
women that are, like, killing itat their firms, and that's,
like, exciting to me. You know?So it's just kind of that kind
of stuff that I just, like, getexcited to do in general.
Davina (33:49):
Yeah. Yeah. I find it interesting because a lot of
first of all, there's the familylawyer. People say that you I
had a mentor who said to me,people either love it or they
hate it. Right?
So it's it's a very divisivesort of practice area in terms
of people practicing it. But Ifind it interesting because I, I
know a lot of women lawyers,they're like, oh, I really don't
(34:09):
want these high conflict cases.If somebody comes into me and
says their ex is a narcissist, Iimmediately do not want them as
a client. So I find itinteresting for you that this is
something that really lights youup and something that you really
enjoy having for your law firmand that your team really enjoys
from the aspect of the legalcomplexity of it. Right?
(34:30):
Sounds like that you that's thewhere you guys are coming from
is this idea that this is a thisis a legally interesting case
when we have high net worth,high conflict situation going
on.
Valerie (34:43):
I think it's legally interesting, but it's also the
amount of value you can providesomeone from a human level is
staggering. I guess I completelydisagree with this whole belief
that when a when a clientcomplains about their spouse
being they're kind of full ofit. Like, I kind of I hear it
(35:05):
all the time, and I just I feelcompletely the opposite. It's
not to say that we haven't hadcalls with people that have
unrealistic expectations and,you know, are complaining about
their spouse's behavior andlabeling it in a manner that's
inappropriate. But I I do reallybelieve that, you know, some of
the situations that make me feelthe most, that make me feel like
(35:27):
I'm gonna help this personrelate to when there's an
imbalance in power dynamics in arelationship where, you know,
whether it's the man or thewoman, one person is really
feeling unsafe and takenadvantage of.
And often mental health issuesare at play, and often it is a
very difficult personality. AndI think that in order to have a
soft spot in your heart forthese kind of cases, you likely
(35:49):
need some kind of back personstory. Right? But I think if you
have one, then you can be sopowerful and really have such a
dramatic impact, you know, on aclient's life that that they'll
never forget.
Davina (36:02):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think really the takeaway from this is
getting really understandingwhat you want to do and how you
wanna serve and how you wannashow up and help your clients
and what is gonna be create themost impact for you in your life
in in through your law firm, youknow, and choosing that. And it
sounds like you've really pickedsomething that you are really
(36:23):
passionate about and reallylove. So you're gonna be on this
panel talking about rainmaking.
Give us a couple of rainmakingtips.
Valerie (36:31):
Okay. I think, to me personally, I think it's
important to just be yourauthentic self, as far as how
you show up in social media oryour newsletter or how you
communicate with other, youknow, lawyers or referral
sources. I think that's reallyimportant. The second one is I
(36:51):
think it depends on the size ofyour business. I really hate to
see, you know, solopractitioners.
Maybe they're making, like,$200, and they're investing in,
like, crazy expensive Google Adsand SEO and that kind of stuff.
I I think you have to do themarketing you could afford. And
in until you really have abusiness with associates
(37:13):
generating revenue for you, I Ithink it's better to do, like,
kind of boots on the groundmarketing that's not gonna, you
know, make you poor and gounder. I think another thing
that's important for brainmaking is being really strategic
and thinking about who your, youknow, target client is. There's
(37:33):
there's just so many things youcan do.
Right? You have podcasts. Youcould do YouTube series. You
could do webinars. You know?
But I think if you make itsimple and you try to find what
you can do to attract your, youknow, your favorite kind of
clients, I think that's usuallythe best. And also, look into
what the ROI is on on whatyou're doing. A lot of people do
webinars, and they get they getknocked and back. It's just busy
(37:55):
work. Yeah.
Yeah. So You know, I Idefinitely something to think
about. And I think the lastthing is just look at try to
find firm throughout the countrythat are killing it and doing
five times better than you are.And I think that, at least,
that's always given me hope andalso kind of excitement about
(38:16):
what it could be doing andhelped me not be I don't know.
Not have a ceiling to my dreams,you know, seeing for me, I think
other women that are doingreally cool, big things with
their law practices.
Because I think winning your ownlaw firm is one of the, I think,
few opportunities for lawyerwomen to really get to practice
(38:39):
law on their own terms, whetheryou wanna practice or not, and
really create a customizedexperience, not just for your
clients and not just for youremployees, but more for for
yourself.
Davina (38:51):
Right. Right. I think it's a you know, for so long,
women haven't had opportunities.They've had to work up a ladder
in a world that doesn't servethem. And I think we're seeing a
shift in that, especially sincethe pandemic.
A lot more women are graduatingfrom law school and starting
their own businesses right outof law school or shortly out of
law school. And they're creatingthe kinds of businesses that
(39:12):
they want to be a part of andwant to see. And it sounds like
that's something you've done. SoI really appreciate you sharing
your story with us. I know a lotof people are gonna be inspired
by hearing it.
Tell us how we can connect withyou if we want to, reach out to
you.
Valerie (39:27):
Yep. You can find me on LinkedIn, Valerie Central. You
can go to my website, I don'tknow, www.centralfamilylaw.com.
You can find me there. You couldemail, I guess,
admin@VentoFamilyLaw.com, and myoffice manager will make sure we
respond to you.
Yeah. But, yeah, it's it'sreally been a pleasure speaking
(39:50):
on your podcast, Sabina. Ialways love working out what
you're doing on social media andeverything else to to grow your
business and everything you haveto say to empower, you know,
other women lawyers to reallytake control of their lives and
build out their own firm.
Davina (40:05):
Thank you. I was really inspired by your story, so I'm
so glad you decided to come onand share it with us. And, this
will be coming out in the nextcouple of weeks, so listen for
it. Everybody's gonna wanna loveto hear hear this story.
Valerie (40:17):
Perfect. Thank you.
Intro (40:18):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
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