May 1, 2025 • 48 mins
On this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, I sit down with Isabelle Fortin, a former Royal Canadian Air Force member turned international speaker and consultant, who is anything but ordinary. Drawing from decades of military and business experience, Isabelle helps organizations transform their leadership by uncovering and leveraging the individual strengths of each team member.
If you've ever wondered what it really takes to build a high-performing team—or why traditional leadership methods fall short—this episode will make you rethink everything. We’re talking leadership that goes deeper than just managing tasks. Isabelle believes in building teams one person at a time... and she’s not afraid to challenge the status quo.
You don’t want to miss this inspiring, eye-opening conversation that might just change the way you lead forever.
LINKS TO LOVE:
To learn more about Isabelle and her mission to go Against the Ordinary, visit her website at againsttheordinary.org or connect with her on LinkedIn (look for the one with the purple hair!).
Want to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts? We’d love it! Here’s the link.
Imagine: scaling your law firm to multiple millions, working less, and enjoying the freedom and flexibility you deserve. It's possible, and I can show you how. For over a decade, I've helped hundreds of women law firm owners achieve this dream with my proven blueprint. Now, you can get your hands on this same blueprint for just $27. But don't wait, this offer won't last forever. Inside the "Solo No More" Blueprint, you'll discover:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:06):
Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more. Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:27):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:48):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams.
Now here's Davina.
Davina (00:55):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy
Woman Lawyer podcast. My guesttoday is Isabel Fortin. Drawing
on her unique experience in theRoyal Canadian Air Force and the
business world, Isabeltransforms how organizations
approach leadership. As aninternational speaker and
consultant, she helps leadersoptimize their teams by
leveraging the power ofindividuality. An expert in the
(01:18):
art of uncovering each person'sunique talents, Isabelle teaches
leaders how to extract andleverage those personal
strengths for the benefit of theteam because great teams are
built one person at a time.
Her approach is personalized andadapted to each client's
individual needs, encouragingencouraging them to go against
(01:39):
the ordinary. Please join me inwelcoming Isabel Fortin to the
Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.Hi, Isabel. It's so good to see
you. How are you today?
Isabelle (01:48):
I'm fantastic. So great to be here, Davina. Thank
you for the invitation.
Davina (01:52):
Good. Good. So tell us I've I have, introduced you, but
I'd love to hear from you howyour background and what led you
to this sort of field ofexpertise.
Isabelle (02:06):
Well, the biggest clash right out of high school,
I joined, the air force, and itwas the family business. That's
just what we did in the family.So both my parents have had
served. And when I joined in1989, and now I'm showing my
age, my brother was an Air Forcepilot at the time. So I didn't
(02:27):
really question.
It didn't really dawn on me thatthere was other opportunities
out there. I just went, okay.This is what you do. So I joined
the Air Force where I served fora decade. And the biggest clash
of my life, professional life, Ishould say, is when I got out of
the military and I get my firstjob and the first boss I ever
(02:49):
had, and I go, oh, okay.
So she's back. This this is andonly lasted for five months
because, you know, I I took whatI thought I could get. It never
dawned on me that what I haddone in the military could
maybe, you know, transfer tocivilian life. So I took the
(03:10):
first job I could find and Ididn't question. And then when I
got to my second job, which Istayed there for three years, I
went, oh, okay.
So this is this is more of thesame lack of leadership and, you
know, like, real leadershipskills to speak of. And and by
(03:32):
the third job by the third job,I went, oh, okay. So this is how
corporate world works. And ittook me a while because I was
facing other pressing matter inmy personal life, things that I
needed to heal from. And butafter about a decade of working
(03:53):
in what I call corporateAmerica, it just dawned me that
the biggest thing with thecorporate world is the lack of
leadership training.
So I'm like, the first boss andthe second boss that I had, I
was kinda looking at them,judging them. But when I got to
the first the the third one, Iwent, no. Okay. So it's not
(04:16):
their fault. They just theyaren't provided the tools to be
good leaders.
And unfortunately, although thiswas twenty five years ago,
unfortunately, it still appliesto this day. I think that in The
US, I read this somewhere, andI'm not going to quote it
because I can't remember quiteaccurately enough. But it was a
(04:41):
study, and it's like only 6% ofof managers and leaders in
corporations actually gotleadership training, and that's
incredibly low. And the biggerthe the the company, the more
likely they will train theirleaders like, you know, Meta or
(05:01):
or Google or because theyunderstand the impact that the
leaders have.
Davina (05:07):
Mhmm.
Isabelle (05:08):
So that's where I come from. And in the military, that
was one of the things that mademe clash with the corporate
world was in the military, ifyou're up to a promotion, for up
for a promotion, and you'regoing to be in a leadership
position, well, you are noteligible for that promotion
(05:29):
unless you have leadershipcourses, unless you get trained
as a leader. Because the skillsof, let's say, sales, well, what
it takes to be the bestsalesperson in a company, that's
one set of skills. But leadingthat team of sales, it's another
(05:52):
kind of skills. Right?
So we train it for one, but wedon't train for the other one.
So why is that?
Intro (05:59):
Is that?
Isabelle (06:01):
Well, that's an I I unfortunately don't have the
real answer to that. Myobservation is that people think
that if they're a goodsalesperson or let's say since
we're talking two lawyers, soyou're a good lawyer, you're
(06:22):
good at either draftingcontracts or you're a good
litigator, well, then you'regonna be good at leading that
team. But it's it's completelydifferent. It's another set of
skills. And I think that slowlybut surely, people are becoming
aware or companies and or andCEOs and managers are becoming
(06:46):
aware that leadership is a wholeanother ballgame.
It's not the same thing, butit's a slow process, and they're
not doing it quickly. Right. Theother thing I am I'm sad to
report is that, well, mostreally, really, really great
(07:07):
leaders are the ones that keepon being a student of
leadership, and those who aren'tgood at it don't know enough to
know they're not good at it. Oh,yes. I could see that.
Yeah. It's a double negative.They don't know what they don't
know.
Davina (07:25):
So our audience is made up of women law firm owners. One
of the challenges that I see,and this is why I've introduced
some leadership training in someof my programs, is because when
we're scaling the business, westart out hiring staff usually.
And then some people stay atthat and they never hire
lawyers. And they feel like anokay boss to their staff until
(07:49):
there's some you know,personality clashes and things,
then they often have problems.But then they're hesitant to
hire lawyers.
When they finally start hiringlawyers, then they really start
having a lot of I call it kindof this lack of confidence and
maybe maybe blaming theemployees for not performing the
way they perform. They only havethemselves to compare to. Right?
(08:12):
Or maybe if they've workedsomeplace else, old bosses or
something. But I think one ofthe issues is that a lot of
people don't even look atthemselves first and say, Well,
wait a minute.
Am I being a good boss? Am Ibeing a good leader? Do I have
management skills? Do I know thedifference between leaders and
(08:33):
managers? So could you talk tome about some of the issues that
you have encountered when you'reworking with your clients that
you see people do before theyrealize they need to develop
leadership skills?
Isabelle (08:51):
The biggest and most common mistake I encounter is
exactly that, is not I I eitherit is the lack of willingness to
look at their own thing, at theway that they lead and the way
(09:12):
that they're communicating. And,well, and, you know, how come
they don't understand what Ijust said? Well, because you're
not speaking their language. Andit's not because somebody is a
lawyer and talking about thelaw. That means that the other
lawyer is understanding exactlywhat how that person is is what
that person is communicating.
(09:32):
So the lack of of willingness orthe lack of self awareness is
one of the biggest thing. Andthe other one that's the most
common is expecting everyone tojust basically guess. Well, you
know, this is this is what I didwhen I, you know, came out of
high of law school. So, like,why aren't they just doing that?
(09:56):
Well, because we don't world asit is.
We see the world as we are.Yeah. We're completely biases.
All of us. We're all biased.
Right? We all have cognitivebiases, and we tend to think
that the way that we see theworld is the way the world is,
but it's not. So you we need asleaders and you're so right,
(10:19):
Debina, is that there's a hugedifference between management
and leadership, and we confusethe two. It's like, oh, I'm not
managing my people. Okay.
So maybe you're a manager. ButI'm thinking that in most kind
of corporations that I've workedwith, which is pretty industry
(10:43):
agnostic. Right? Because humanI'm dealing with humans, so it
doesn't it doesn't matter whatkind of industry they're in, is
it doesn't look sexy to say thatyou're the manager. It looks
much better if you say you'reyou led that team.
Right? So we started callingthem leaders. But leadership is
about taking care of people.It's not about getting things
(11:05):
done. Right.
That's the biggest that's thebiggest misconception I find.
Davina (11:11):
Yeah. I I kind of distinguish it by saying leaders
inspire. They inspire people tofollow their vision. They have a
vision, and they are inspiringpeople and galvanizing people
around that vision. Managers arereally focused on the day to day
execution of that vision.
And and so when you own a lawfirm or a small business of any
(11:33):
kind, you are probably both atat some point. You're growing
it. You're managing. You'releading. You're doing both.
And understanding thedistinction really helps so you
know which role that you need tobe in at any given time. Right?
You you talk about your whatpeople what kind of happens
(11:58):
before they become leaders. Oncethey sort of recognize I need to
lead or I need to managewhatever it is that they're
thinking, what are some of themistakes that you see, first
time leaders making in abusiness type of environment?
Isabelle (12:17):
They don't listen enough. I think it's regardless
of how high up they get in theorganization, it's it's a lack
of of being willing to actuallylisten. Ask your direct reports.
Let me I don't know if you have10 or 20 or five. Ask them meet
(12:39):
them on their if not in youroffice, in their office.
Or if they don't have an office,go for coffee with them. Ask
them how they are. And thenshush. Shut up. Just listen.
And at the beginning, try tomake it not about work. Care
(12:59):
about the individual. And ifyou're someone that, you know,
you maybe you have a lot of thereports and that you need to
write notes, write notesafterwards. Okay. So and so's
mother is sick, and so and so isconcerned about this, and so and
so is having a spat with aneighbor, and she's concerned
about, you know, because it usedto be a great place to live, and
(13:22):
now, like, her everyday life ismessed up with by by this
neighbor and so on and so forth.
And let them talk aboutthemselves and not work. And
after after they're done abouttheir day and telling you who
they are and what they careabout, what they do as a hobby,
and what what tickles theirfancy, what they wanted to be
(13:44):
when they grew up, then they'regoing to be much more open about
the tools that they need at workbecause they feel like you're
valuing them, like they havevalue and they know they have
value because you're investingtime. And time is some things we
only have a limited amount of.So that's the best way to care
(14:08):
and truly care about someone. So
Davina (14:12):
go ahead. I'm just going play devil's advocate here
because there are three thingsthat sort of come to mind when
you're saying this. One is lawoffices are very fast, busy
places. They are you're you'remaking money by the billable
hour. You have to be highly,skilled to work and function and
(14:36):
work well in a law firmenvironment.
I'm when I go back to men andwomen and the dynamic, also, I
mentioned that I'm a Gen Xer. SoI came up in corporate America
at the time when women came intopatriarchal environments and
adapted. And so I never had aboss who pulled me aside and
(14:56):
said, Devina, how are youfeeling today? What is going on
in your life? There was none ofthat.
There was an expectation that Icome in and do my job, I got
paid to do the job. So that incontrast. And then also, I
really can't imagine that in themilitary that you had people
pulling you aside asking you ifyou were okay. So I hear all of
(15:18):
these women lawyers who werealready sort of likely to do
that. They're likely to say, howare you?
Are you okay? And then they feelbad. Well, she's called in sick
four times, but her mother issick, and this is a problem.
That's a problem. Instead ofsaying, well, you know, at some
point, we're grown ups.
We gotta come here, we gottawork. So how does that square
(15:39):
with what you were just talkingabout?
Isabelle (15:42):
I love everything you just said because you're right
on all counts. First of all
Davina (15:48):
You're right. I just need to be I need to understand
Isabelle (15:50):
what you're saying. I I hear that. I understand. Okay.
So I'm gonna adjust the militaryissue first because that's easy
for me.
You're right. In the military, Ihad very few bosses take me
aside and ask me how my damn daywas going. But where if there's
a place where command andcontrol actually works, it is in
the military. However andthere's a huge however, is in
(16:15):
the military, the mission comesfirst. So what does that mean in
the practicality of things?
It's regardless of how longyou've been doing a job, if the
recruit, the newbie in thesquadron that shows up is better
doing that job on mission.They're getting that job because
(16:37):
the mission comes first. So whatdoes that do? It makes it so
every single individual knowexactly what they are
contributing to the team that noone else does quite like they
do. The military is shamelessabout tapping into the unique
(16:59):
abilities of each and everyindividual.
And that's how the individualsfeel feel like they are seen,
heard, and valued because theyknow what it is, that special
something that they contributeto the team. Mhmm. So that's
that part of the answer. Theother part of the answer is
you're absolutely right. You andI are about the same age.
(17:23):
I'm yeah. Nobody asked me how Iwas doing my first my first
civilian job either. But youknow what? The new generations,
they are the future. And whetherwe like it or not, we have to
adapt to that because they arethe one that in twenty years
when we retire, they're gonna dothe the job.
(17:44):
Is it gonna work? Is it notgonna work? Did is it better? Is
it worse? Some things areextremely better and some things
are extremely worse.
And, you know, the pendulum isgonna swing one way or another.
However, one of the things thatI find about the the generations
after us is that they come tothe office with the expectation
(18:10):
of of a sense of belonging. Youwant to belong. They need to
know what it is about them thatmakes them special. Is it
egocentric?
Maybe. I don't know. I don'thave that I don't have that
expertise. But if we wantsomething out of these people,
(18:33):
we have to tap into who theyare, and we have to tap into
what motivate them. One of thethings that I always say to
leaders is unless you use forceor violence, which obviously is
illegal in both our countries,to have people do things for
you, you cannot know human beingcan motivate another human be to
(18:59):
do anything at any time for anyreasons.
What we can do very easilythough is tap into their
motivations and bring them withus. What is it about what I'm
doing that's beneficial for youthat you're gonna want to do it?
And back to your third point,which is actually the first
(19:21):
thing that you said was, youknow, lawyer firms are, you
know, extremely fast paced andit's like, go, go, go, go, go,
go. I totally get that. But andthat was in the last McKinsey
report.
If you show empathy towards anemployee, the engagement goes
up. Engagement equalsproductivity. It equals bottom
(19:47):
line. It increases retention.How is that good for business?
It increases the bottom line by86% just by investing fifteen
minutes a week and actuallycaring. So I understand the the
the even though I'm not a lawyerand I'm thank goodness I have
(20:13):
not had to hire lawyers much inmy life except when I bought and
sold the business, I stillfifteen minutes per employee
just to care. Just care. Andwatch what that's going to do
you to your bottom line. Justwatch it.
No. Actually, you know what?Don't believe me. Try it. And
(20:33):
see how quickly these people aregonna be more engaged.
And I will add and shut up afterthat. And I will add, well, you
know, maybe taking a break oncein a while would be good for you
too as a as an individual intaking care of your people.
(20:54):
Humans are not designed to go gogo go go go go That's why people
die eighteen months after theyretire at 58.
Davina (21:02):
That is the nature of the industry, And I think there
are a lot of people who arechanging the industry. We have a
new generation of lawyers thatare coming in that are changing
the industry. We're seeing a lotmore people start their own
firms and try to create abusiness environment that they
want to have. And that's wherewe're seeing a lot more women.
(21:22):
Kind of my mission is to getmore women to start their own
law firms, grow their own lawfirms, and create the kind of
work environments that they wishwere available that are not
available in traditional biglaw, which moves very slowly and
changes very slowly.
So one of the things that reallystood out to me was this mission
(21:44):
oriented leadership because wewere talking about the military.
The military, it's about themission, right? And the military
does a great job in trainingleaders because they're mission
focused. And so I wonder, in ain a when we're talking about
(22:05):
leadership in a private vision,one of the things that I think
is important is to have amission that is bigger than the
money. Right?
So we have lawyers are out therein all different kinds of
practice areas, are doing reallypowerful work where they're
really giving back to people.They're either helping them get
(22:27):
divorced or they're saving themfrom life in prison or they're
helping them leave a legacy fortheir family so their family
doesn't struggle when they dieor, you know, just any time
personal injury, they're reallyhelping people get the resources
that they need to recover from alife debilitating injury. So
they're doing very meaningful.Of course, with the immigration
(22:49):
stuff that's going on, ourimmigration lawyers are just
really of saviors for a lot ofpeople right now. So there's a
lot of amazing work that lawyersare doing.
And I think there's often a lackof conveying that mission to
people and and helping them andand tapping into instead of,
(23:12):
like, the you know, you'repersonally about your trials and
troubles and things that aregoing on in your family, but
tapping into that gift that theyhave. Then you talk about how
the military is very good attapping into that gift and say,
what is it that you bring to theteam, and why is that special
and important? So I see a lot ofroom there in that way. So how
(23:34):
might we do that with ouremployees and sort of tapping
into what makes them such animportant contributor to the
team so that they fired in themission, in accomplishing the
mission?
Isabelle (23:49):
It's a great question. There's two ways. The way that I
do my practice, there's twoways, and I really strongly
encourage both and and actuallythe the first one that I'll talk
about I not only encourage Iimpose when working with me that
(24:09):
is. The first one is apsychometric assessment. So I
use an assessment that's fromSwitzerland.
It's called NOVA, and it's trulyabout how is that person's brain
connected. So the particularthings about NOVA is not only
(24:31):
will it tell you how thatperson's natural abilities are,
what's their, cognitivepreference, their behavioral
preferences, their communicationpreferences, but also what areas
have they adapted? So meaning,what areas are they completely
natural? In what areas of theirlives are you dealing with the
(24:54):
persona? So I when I work with ateam or a leader, I I do that.
That's that's the entry levelthing that they get because I
wanna be efficient, and I wannaknow who I'm speaking with so
that I can better provide theright tools for that person. But
adding to that is that they alsoget the reports for everybody on
(25:19):
their team. So this is how youcommunicate with this person.
And this is the kind of, youknow, work that this person
would be best at. So if you I'mthrowing things out there.
If you have one person that'sdata oriented or extremely
structured in the way that theirbrain is wired, why not give
(25:42):
that person all of the data,task management that there is to
be done in that particular lawfirm? So that's the first thing.
The second thing, other than thepsychometric assessment, is
actually giving them the toolsto really find out what is the
(26:04):
best thing for that individual.How do you communicate
effectively with that person?And it doesn't have to be having
them having every team memberconfide in you.
That doesn't it you know,sometimes you're their boss, and
it's it's okay if it's friendly.It doesn't mean that you're
gonna, you know, invite them allto your house for dinner. That's
(26:25):
not what I'm saying. It's justhow do you get to the human
behind the guy or the girl doingthe job? Right?
So how do you recognize or howdo you get connected on a human
level? And that's all there isto it. And you know what,
Davina? Most people, men, women,I know this is more women
(26:47):
centric, and that's beautiful,but we need to be recognized as
an individual. We all do.
We all need that. So but itdoesn't take much for us to have
that feeling that we were seenand heard and valued. It doesn't
have to be, you know, I my bosssends me on vacation for a week
(27:12):
every every year. That itdoesn't have to be that.
Sometimes just remembering theirtheir kids' names, their
spouse's name, what they didover over the weekend, how long
they've been in their houses,and etcetera, etcetera,
etcetera, that's enough.
And how they do what they do atwork and what tools they need to
do it better.
Davina (27:31):
Mhmm. I think the challenge, as somebody who's
been working with women law firmowners for over a decade, one of
the challenges I see with womenas they become bosses, and this
is common with small businessowners, is, you know, they start
out they're they're family.Like, I'm starting out. I'm
(27:54):
scared. So I hire people, andthen they become I get to know
them very well.
They get to know me, and there'salmost this little blending of
personal and business. But,really, that next level piece is
what I'm talking about here iswhen we're like, I think
oftentimes we tend to go too farwith it, and then suddenly we're
(28:16):
in a situation. So I guessthat's why I'm kind of pulling
at this thread a little bitbecause I think that's really a
challenge that a lot of peoplehave is they're too emotionally,
invested as though the peopleworking for them are their
friends. And then when they'renot getting sort of growing,
(28:36):
getting to the next level,they're sort of going, wait a
minute. I'm the boss.
How do I I'm let now I'm leftout of happy hours. And now
people are talking about me, andnow things are going. And so
they have to reframe and relearntheir position in the in the
business. So that's why I'm kindof pushing back on this idea of
(28:56):
kind of getting to know peoplebecause I don't think that's the
problem with the women I'mworking with. They know all
about everybody.
They know all about what's goingon and they're great. But then
if they're not performingbecause they're family, We're
all family here, right? This iswhere we struggle with
(29:20):
leadership. I don't see womenlawyers, and again, this is a
generalization because there arecertainly some out there who are
like, no, I don't want to knowabout your business. But
generally speaking, the clientsI work with, that's not the
problem.
The problem is is the leadershippro it's the stepping and
saying, and I see this thisdynamic show up particularly
(29:42):
with women working with women. Ihave worked in environments
where I've seen men will say towomen who are subordinate to
them, do this, do that. They go,yes. Okay. Okay.
Okay. And women working forwomen will will have this
little, like, who do you thinkyou are to tell me what to do?
(30:05):
Well, I'm the one who writesyour checks. And this dynamic
comes up a lot with womenworking with women. So as a
woman boss, a woman leader of anorganization, how do we break
that sort of cycle of and Ithink it's just a cultural
thing.
Like, women are brought up tocompete with each other on a one
(30:25):
on one sort of level. You know?We play games that are one on
one sort of level. We you havethe best friend, and if you have
a third friend in the bestfriend dynamic, it doesn't go
well. And so, you know, I Ithink there's a particular
challenge of for women bossesbeing you're either, you know,
you're either one of the gang orwho does she think she is.
Isabelle (30:52):
Well, I love that you pushed back. That's the first
thing because this is youraudience, and you you know their
reality better than I do. Ofcourse, I work again, I work
with it's very industryagnostic, what I do for a
living. Right? Right.
Excuse me. That one caught meoff guard. I I think that women
(31:18):
as leaders, what I'veencountered often, when dealing
with, women leaders is that,yeah, they wanna be part of the
gang. It's like, you know, theycare, and they sometimes scare.
I don't wanna say too muchbecause I don't believe there's
such a thing.
It's excuse me.
Davina (31:44):
Need to stop me. Grab some water, you can.
Isabelle (31:47):
Yeah. Thank you. There you go. I'm just gonna pause for
a second so you know where tocut. So I think that for women
leaders, it's not that theydon't care.
It's not that they don't investthe time. It's not that they
(32:09):
don't know who's doing what onthe weekends or whatever. Is
they want to be liked. They wantto be part of the gang. And I
love your example where, well,you know, if they hire just one
assistant and then or paralegaland then another, and then it
becomes a little tramp.
And then, you know, it's it'sthe the personal and the
(32:32):
professional gets allintertwined in that as soon as
the law firm grows and grows andgrows, well, eventually, you
are, you know, left out. And Ican certainly understand why
women would go, okay. So all ofa sudden, I'm the boss. Well,
no. You've been the boss allthis time.
It's just that it is easier. Thethe familiarity of things is
(32:56):
easier for a smaller group ofpeople. Right? So one of the
things that I encounter is womentend to want to be like liked
more than they want to lead, andit is unkind, and it actually
(33:20):
lack empathy lacks empathy tonot have the difficult
conversations when they need tobe had. So if somebody needs to
be fired or let go don't likethe word discipline or yeah.
Thank you. I like that wordbetter. It is your job and your
(33:46):
responsibility as a leader tosay, okay. You and I are
friendly, and I love our, youknow, personal relationship, and
you are part of my my family.But here, I am also the boss,
and I do need to make sure thatthis is aligned with where I'm
I'm taking my firm and that youare aligned with the, quote,
(34:10):
unquote, company culture.
And I recently had to coachsomeone to actually fire someone
they love. And the only thingthat I and it's a woman firing
another woman. And I said, youare not giving her the
opportunity to grow outside ofyour organization because she's
(34:33):
being extremely well paid andshe may not leave. But you don't
know long term if that's gonnabe bad or good for her. You're
presuming or you're assumingthat firing someone is bad for
them.
But you know what? I've beenfired once in my life, and,
Davina, thank god. Yeah. Becauseat the time, I didn't see that I
(35:00):
didn't fit. Right.
But you know what? If you don'tfit in an organization, it is
impossible that the reverse notbe the same thing. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Right?
Davina (35:13):
I once had a mentor say to me, he said, if you have
decided that there is no placewithin your organization for
this person to go because thetide has already turned in how
you feel about it, you're doingthem a disservice by not letting
them go so they can go findopportunity elsewhere. And that
(35:33):
was such a powerful, statementwhen I heard it. And I've shared
it many times over with myclients when they're struggling
with that because I think thereis that sort of feeling of, and
it's a little bit, patronizing.You know? And we don't mean it
to be.
But but I think they're going,you know, oh, I feel so bad
about firing this person becauseI worry about they've got kids
(35:56):
and they won't you know, and allthis kind of stuff. And it's
like, yes. But if they don't ifthey're not if they're not
excelling in their job here,there's a struggle for them, and
they need to go find the placewhere they really shine. And
that's not gonna be in yourorganization for whatever. And
so you're really doing them adisservice.
And and I have been fired. I'vebeen fired more than once. And
(36:18):
it it's one of those things thatit's I I tend to have a
personality where I stay toolong at the party anyway. Know
something's not good for me, butI tend to stay. I'm very loyal.
I like routine. There's a lot ofthings. So I've had people kick
me out of the nest and say, Youneed to go. Because I'm acting
(36:41):
out in a way, in anorganization, by not conforming
or not agreeing or not being onboard with something. And then
they're going, this isn't foryou because I'm not behind the
mission, basically.
And I never had anybody say thatto me in that way. It's always a
different you know, people putthings in different ways. But
reflecting back on a career andsaying all the times that I've
(37:03):
been fired has been somebodytelling me what I knew in my gut
but didn't have the courage todo for myself. Right?
Absolutely.
And it's always hindsight. Know,in the moment, it hurts. It's
never fun and all of that kindof stuff. But I think as a boss,
we really have to keep in mindand one of the things that I
(37:25):
talk to my clients about rightwhen we start is your business
is not your baby. You are thesteward of this business.
It is you are the steward, andyou have to make decisions, like
like, not what is best forDevina, but what is best for the
business. Right? Those are twovery different things. If you're
sitting here, you and I are in aconversation, what may be best
(37:50):
for me personally is to have youlike me, to go along to get
along, to not disrupt things.Way I can just disengage and go
on about my business.
But if I'm the leader ofbusiness, I have to think first
as a fiduciary, a steward ofthat business, and go, what does
(38:11):
this business need? And I needto be strong enough to give it
what it needs. And that's a verydifferent mindset, in terms of
of leading a business.
Isabelle (38:23):
Were talking not your friends either. You can be
extremely friendly with them,but your employees aren't
supposed to be your friends.Like, kids aren't supposed to be
your friends either. Yeah. Yeah.
They a loving, absolutelyphenomenal relationship with
your daughter, your son. Itdoesn't matter, whichever. But
you're still that person'sparent, and your job is to be
(38:47):
their parent. And their parent.And, you know, maybe when
they're 40, you're 60.
Okay. That's another ballgame.That's an adult win an adult.
But your employees, you signtheir checks, or you're in a
position of authority, period.
Davina (39:05):
Right. Right. And I think that is the challenge for
a lot of people as they grow. Sothis is why it's so important to
really invest in some trainingso that you're able to because
it's hard to be objective aboutyourself. We all have that blind
spot about ourselves.
When we engage in training,we're like having, oh, okay. I
(39:27):
hire people to help me hirepeople because I do not like to
go through the hiring process.And what I tend to do if I'm
meeting people for the firsttime and nobody else has pre
interviewed them is I will findsomething to like about
everybody. So I will be sittinghere going, I wanna hire them
all, or I will find somebodywith a personality that's
(39:51):
completely the opposite of minethat just immediately turns me
off. And it could be thatthey're the exact person I need
because I need somebody that'scompensating for my weaknesses
or the weaknesses on the team orwhatever.
So, I think knowing yourself,the only person you can control
(40:11):
is yourself. So the onlyperson's behavior you can
actually control is yourself. Sothen taking a look at yourself,
I think is critical. So if we'relooking at ourselves as kind of
assessing our leadership skills,what are just one or two things
that we should probably beasking ourselves in terms of our
(40:34):
leadership and finding kind ofthose weak spots in our
leadership.
Isabelle (40:40):
No, we shouldn't be asking ourselves. We should be
asking anonymously our directreports. And how do we do
Davina (40:49):
that? How do we do that if we have a small Create
Isabelle (40:52):
a create a a survey where they answer questions, no
name, piped, just and it's youneed the real answers and for
the same reason that you are nottheir friends because you're
signing their paycheck they needto do it in an anonymous way so
(41:15):
that you get the truth or atleast a direction towards the
truth. Of course, it's easier ifyou're dealing with an outside
coach because if I'm meetingwith your team, they're going to
tell me the truth. Right? Right.Because when I when I work with
a team, I meet with every singleindividual when I do their
(41:37):
either their debrief, but andand I tell them whatever you're
going to share with you with meis go you're you have complete
amnesty.
I am not sharing what you'regoing to tell me with anyone.
But if, you know, a team offive, if four people out of five
were telling me the same thing,well, then I know how what
(41:59):
exactly to address leads to.
Davina (42:02):
So that brings me to another question. Yep. When you
said four out of five aretelling me, so my question is,
you got one person telling yousomething. Is there ever a
moment when the employee iswrong? Yes.
Because I have seen where ofcourse, I'm working with the
(42:27):
CEOs of the law firm. I'mworking with the people who own
the law firm. Sometimes theywill say, So and so said this
about me as she was leaving, youknow, or said I'm toxic, or I
said this, or I did that, orwhatever. And most of the people
I work with are very they takeit to heart. They really
(42:50):
reflect.
What did I do? Did I dosomething? Am I this way or
what? And so I wonder, becausesometimes I think we could hire
the wrong people as well. Right?
There's that side of it whereI've hired the wrong person, but
I don't know enough what to lookfor. When you're kind of doing
(43:14):
this anonymous assessment, whatkinds of things are you pattern,
obviously, is something thatyou're looking for. Is there a
pattern?
Isabelle (43:24):
Is there a pattern? Is the majority of people and the
the the thing is when I meetwith the employees, each debrief
is ninety minutes. So I have alot of time, and I have tools to
to get to, okay. Is this aperception or is that fact?
(43:44):
Right?
So Right. And, honestly, if 90%of people are telling me the
same thing differently or with adifferent, you know, tone or
whatever, well, then more thanlikely, we're talking about a
fact. And it's not only aperception. Maybe somebody
(44:05):
perceived it to be, like, youknow, nine out of 10, it was the
most horrible thing. And theother one is gonna say, well,
it's a three, but it wasextremely unpleasant.
So that's perception. But ifeverybody is talking about the
same, I'll say flaw in thatword, but I'll say flaw, well,
then more than likely, it'ssomething to build on and to
(44:27):
work to work towards. Correct?Right. Right.
So but to your question, is issometimes the employee wrong?
Absolutely sometimes. And it'sthe same thing. The client's
always right. No.
Hell no. Hell no. The client'snot always right. Sometimes the
client is being served by thewrong person for them. I can go
(44:50):
to the greatest restaurant.
I don't like eating inrestaurants. I really don't. I
prefer my food. I it's sort ofhot. I don't have to wait.
I don't have to deal with crap.I just that's so if I go to a
five star restaurant here whereI live first of all, for me,
it's a waste of money becauseI'm not enjoying it. So you're
(45:11):
gonna ask me how that restaurantwas, and I'll say, okay.
Overpriced. And maybe you'regonna go and you're gonna say,
oh my god.
This was phenomenal. Like, whatare you talking about? Well, I'm
talking about my preferences.Right? Nobody's right.
Nobody's wrong. It's just that'swhat what that's what is for me,
(45:33):
and that's what is for you.Right? So is you know, are
employees wrong? All of thetime.
All of the time.
Davina (45:42):
Yeah. I think that's I love the idea of having, an
outside person come in and sortof, ask those questions and
evaluate and give that feedback,especially if you are if you own
the firm and you've had a lot ofturnover for reasons that seem
(46:02):
to be related to you or you'vehad people who say, I I I can't
work with you or you're toxic oryou if you're starting if you're
hearing those things, more oftenor in in some cases, again,
there are a lot of when you gothrough law school and you
become a lawyer, you oftenbecome very direct and very
(46:22):
pointed, which I actuallyencourage people to be because I
think a lot of times I grew upin the Deep South in The US and
there's a lot of honey and sugarthat goes along with everything
and there's a lot ofmisunderstanding and
miscommunication because of thatnot being able to be direct. So
I'd like direct. But I know thatthere are people who are
(46:43):
accustomed to that coming fromwomen especially and take that
and get offended by it. That'swhy I bring up sort of the
employee thing that maybe thereare some people that are better
for your personality and yourleadership style as long as your
leadership style is not toxic orpassive aggressive or something
like that.
(47:04):
We do need to end, and I reallyhate it because I wish we had
more time because I have I'veenjoyed picking your brain. I
know I've been grilling you like
Isabelle (47:12):
That is total. But I had to bagged with Vina. That's
okay.
Davina (47:17):
I love this topic. I've enjoyed it a lot. Tell us how we
can reach out to you and connectwith you if we wanna know more
about what you do and maybe talkwith you about bringing you into
our business.
Isabelle (47:30):
The first place is againsttheordinary.org because I
am against ordinary leadership.And the other place is on
LinkedIn. That's pretty much myhangout place. My name is
Isabelle Fortin, and there's abunch of us. Look for the one
with the purple hair.
Davina (47:47):
Okay. Good. And she does have beautiful purple hair. So
for those of you who arelistening to this and not
watching videos. Alright.
Isabelle, it was so great. Ireally enjoyed it so much.
Thanks for being here.
Isabelle (47:58):
Thank you for having me. I hope I didn't push back
too hard either.
Davina (48:02):
You did great. You did great.
Intro (48:04):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help clients
create wealth generating lawfirms with ease.
Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more. Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:27):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:48):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams.
Now here's Davina.
Davina (00:55):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy
Woman Lawyer podcast. My guesttoday is Isabel Fortin. Drawing
on her unique experience in theRoyal Canadian Air Force and the
business world, Isabeltransforms how organizations
approach leadership. As aninternational speaker and
consultant, she helps leadersoptimize their teams by
leveraging the power ofindividuality. An expert in the
(01:18):
art of uncovering each person'sunique talents, Isabelle teaches
leaders how to extract andleverage those personal
strengths for the benefit of theteam because great teams are
built one person at a time.
Her approach is personalized andadapted to each client's
individual needs, encouragingencouraging them to go against
(01:39):
the ordinary. Please join me inwelcoming Isabel Fortin to the
Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.Hi, Isabel. It's so good to see
you. How are you today?
Isabelle (01:48):
I'm fantastic. So great to be here, Davina. Thank
you for the invitation.
Davina (01:52):
Good. Good. So tell us I've I have, introduced you, but
I'd love to hear from you howyour background and what led you
to this sort of field ofexpertise.
Isabelle (02:06):
Well, the biggest clash right out of high school,
I joined, the air force, and itwas the family business. That's
just what we did in the family.So both my parents have had
served. And when I joined in1989, and now I'm showing my
age, my brother was an Air Forcepilot at the time. So I didn't
(02:27):
really question.
It didn't really dawn on me thatthere was other opportunities
out there. I just went, okay.This is what you do. So I joined
the Air Force where I served fora decade. And the biggest clash
of my life, professional life, Ishould say, is when I got out of
the military and I get my firstjob and the first boss I ever
(02:49):
had, and I go, oh, okay.
So she's back. This this is andonly lasted for five months
because, you know, I I took whatI thought I could get. It never
dawned on me that what I haddone in the military could
maybe, you know, transfer tocivilian life. So I took the
(03:10):
first job I could find and Ididn't question. And then when I
got to my second job, which Istayed there for three years, I
went, oh, okay.
So this is this is more of thesame lack of leadership and, you
know, like, real leadershipskills to speak of. And and by
(03:32):
the third job by the third job,I went, oh, okay. So this is how
corporate world works. And ittook me a while because I was
facing other pressing matter inmy personal life, things that I
needed to heal from. And butafter about a decade of working
(03:53):
in what I call corporateAmerica, it just dawned me that
the biggest thing with thecorporate world is the lack of
leadership training.
So I'm like, the first boss andthe second boss that I had, I
was kinda looking at them,judging them. But when I got to
the first the the third one, Iwent, no. Okay. So it's not
(04:16):
their fault. They just theyaren't provided the tools to be
good leaders.
And unfortunately, although thiswas twenty five years ago,
unfortunately, it still appliesto this day. I think that in The
US, I read this somewhere, andI'm not going to quote it
because I can't remember quiteaccurately enough. But it was a
(04:41):
study, and it's like only 6% ofof managers and leaders in
corporations actually gotleadership training, and that's
incredibly low. And the biggerthe the the company, the more
likely they will train theirleaders like, you know, Meta or
(05:01):
or Google or because theyunderstand the impact that the
leaders have.
Davina (05:07):
Mhmm.
Isabelle (05:08):
So that's where I come from. And in the military, that
was one of the things that mademe clash with the corporate
world was in the military, ifyou're up to a promotion, for up
for a promotion, and you'regoing to be in a leadership
position, well, you are noteligible for that promotion
(05:29):
unless you have leadershipcourses, unless you get trained
as a leader. Because the skillsof, let's say, sales, well, what
it takes to be the bestsalesperson in a company, that's
one set of skills. But leadingthat team of sales, it's another
(05:52):
kind of skills. Right?
So we train it for one, but wedon't train for the other one.
So why is that?
Intro (05:59):
Is that?
Isabelle (06:01):
Well, that's an I I unfortunately don't have the
real answer to that. Myobservation is that people think
that if they're a goodsalesperson or let's say since
we're talking two lawyers, soyou're a good lawyer, you're
(06:22):
good at either draftingcontracts or you're a good
litigator, well, then you'regonna be good at leading that
team. But it's it's completelydifferent. It's another set of
skills. And I think that slowlybut surely, people are becoming
aware or companies and or andCEOs and managers are becoming
(06:46):
aware that leadership is a wholeanother ballgame.
It's not the same thing, butit's a slow process, and they're
not doing it quickly. Right. Theother thing I am I'm sad to
report is that, well, mostreally, really, really great
(07:07):
leaders are the ones that keepon being a student of
leadership, and those who aren'tgood at it don't know enough to
know they're not good at it. Oh,yes. I could see that.
Yeah. It's a double negative.They don't know what they don't
know.
Davina (07:25):
So our audience is made up of women law firm owners. One
of the challenges that I see,and this is why I've introduced
some leadership training in someof my programs, is because when
we're scaling the business, westart out hiring staff usually.
And then some people stay atthat and they never hire
lawyers. And they feel like anokay boss to their staff until
(07:49):
there's some you know,personality clashes and things,
then they often have problems.But then they're hesitant to
hire lawyers.
When they finally start hiringlawyers, then they really start
having a lot of I call it kindof this lack of confidence and
maybe maybe blaming theemployees for not performing the
way they perform. They only havethemselves to compare to. Right?
(08:12):
Or maybe if they've workedsomeplace else, old bosses or
something. But I think one ofthe issues is that a lot of
people don't even look atthemselves first and say, Well,
wait a minute.
Am I being a good boss? Am Ibeing a good leader? Do I have
management skills? Do I know thedifference between leaders and
(08:33):
managers? So could you talk tome about some of the issues that
you have encountered when you'reworking with your clients that
you see people do before theyrealize they need to develop
leadership skills?
Isabelle (08:51):
The biggest and most common mistake I encounter is
exactly that, is not I I eitherit is the lack of willingness to
look at their own thing, at theway that they lead and the way
(09:12):
that they're communicating. And,well, and, you know, how come
they don't understand what Ijust said? Well, because you're
not speaking their language. Andit's not because somebody is a
lawyer and talking about thelaw. That means that the other
lawyer is understanding exactlywhat how that person is is what
that person is communicating.
(09:32):
So the lack of of willingness orthe lack of self awareness is
one of the biggest thing. Andthe other one that's the most
common is expecting everyone tojust basically guess. Well, you
know, this is this is what I didwhen I, you know, came out of
high of law school. So, like,why aren't they just doing that?
(09:56):
Well, because we don't world asit is.
We see the world as we are.Yeah. We're completely biases.
All of us. We're all biased.
Right? We all have cognitivebiases, and we tend to think
that the way that we see theworld is the way the world is,
but it's not. So you we need asleaders and you're so right,
(10:19):
Debina, is that there's a hugedifference between management
and leadership, and we confusethe two. It's like, oh, I'm not
managing my people. Okay.
So maybe you're a manager. ButI'm thinking that in most kind
of corporations that I've workedwith, which is pretty industry
(10:43):
agnostic. Right? Because humanI'm dealing with humans, so it
doesn't it doesn't matter whatkind of industry they're in, is
it doesn't look sexy to say thatyou're the manager. It looks
much better if you say you'reyou led that team.
Right? So we started callingthem leaders. But leadership is
about taking care of people.It's not about getting things
(11:05):
done. Right.
That's the biggest that's thebiggest misconception I find.
Davina (11:11):
Yeah. I I kind of distinguish it by saying leaders
inspire. They inspire people tofollow their vision. They have a
vision, and they are inspiringpeople and galvanizing people
around that vision. Managers arereally focused on the day to day
execution of that vision.
And and so when you own a lawfirm or a small business of any
(11:33):
kind, you are probably both atat some point. You're growing
it. You're managing. You'releading. You're doing both.
And understanding thedistinction really helps so you
know which role that you need tobe in at any given time. Right?
You you talk about your whatpeople what kind of happens
(11:58):
before they become leaders. Oncethey sort of recognize I need to
lead or I need to managewhatever it is that they're
thinking, what are some of themistakes that you see, first
time leaders making in abusiness type of environment?
Isabelle (12:17):
They don't listen enough. I think it's regardless
of how high up they get in theorganization, it's it's a lack
of of being willing to actuallylisten. Ask your direct reports.
Let me I don't know if you have10 or 20 or five. Ask them meet
(12:39):
them on their if not in youroffice, in their office.
Or if they don't have an office,go for coffee with them. Ask
them how they are. And thenshush. Shut up. Just listen.
And at the beginning, try tomake it not about work. Care
(12:59):
about the individual. And ifyou're someone that, you know,
you maybe you have a lot of thereports and that you need to
write notes, write notesafterwards. Okay. So and so's
mother is sick, and so and so isconcerned about this, and so and
so is having a spat with aneighbor, and she's concerned
about, you know, because it usedto be a great place to live, and
(13:22):
now, like, her everyday life ismessed up with by by this
neighbor and so on and so forth.
And let them talk aboutthemselves and not work. And
after after they're done abouttheir day and telling you who
they are and what they careabout, what they do as a hobby,
and what what tickles theirfancy, what they wanted to be
(13:44):
when they grew up, then they'regoing to be much more open about
the tools that they need at workbecause they feel like you're
valuing them, like they havevalue and they know they have
value because you're investingtime. And time is some things we
only have a limited amount of.So that's the best way to care
(14:08):
and truly care about someone. So
Davina (14:12):
go ahead. I'm just going play devil's advocate here
because there are three thingsthat sort of come to mind when
you're saying this. One is lawoffices are very fast, busy
places. They are you're you'remaking money by the billable
hour. You have to be highly,skilled to work and function and
(14:36):
work well in a law firmenvironment.
I'm when I go back to men andwomen and the dynamic, also, I
mentioned that I'm a Gen Xer. SoI came up in corporate America
at the time when women came intopatriarchal environments and
adapted. And so I never had aboss who pulled me aside and
(14:56):
said, Devina, how are youfeeling today? What is going on
in your life? There was none ofthat.
There was an expectation that Icome in and do my job, I got
paid to do the job. So that incontrast. And then also, I
really can't imagine that in themilitary that you had people
pulling you aside asking you ifyou were okay. So I hear all of
(15:18):
these women lawyers who werealready sort of likely to do
that. They're likely to say, howare you?
Are you okay? And then they feelbad. Well, she's called in sick
four times, but her mother issick, and this is a problem.
That's a problem. Instead ofsaying, well, you know, at some
point, we're grown ups.
We gotta come here, we gottawork. So how does that square
(15:39):
with what you were just talkingabout?
Isabelle (15:42):
I love everything you just said because you're right
on all counts. First of all
Davina (15:48):
You're right. I just need to be I need to understand
Isabelle (15:50):
what you're saying. I I hear that. I understand. Okay.
So I'm gonna adjust the militaryissue first because that's easy
for me.
You're right. In the military, Ihad very few bosses take me
aside and ask me how my damn daywas going. But where if there's
a place where command andcontrol actually works, it is in
the military. However andthere's a huge however, is in
(16:15):
the military, the mission comesfirst. So what does that mean in
the practicality of things?
It's regardless of how longyou've been doing a job, if the
recruit, the newbie in thesquadron that shows up is better
doing that job on mission.They're getting that job because
(16:37):
the mission comes first. So whatdoes that do? It makes it so
every single individual knowexactly what they are
contributing to the team that noone else does quite like they
do. The military is shamelessabout tapping into the unique
(16:59):
abilities of each and everyindividual.
And that's how the individualsfeel feel like they are seen,
heard, and valued because theyknow what it is, that special
something that they contributeto the team. Mhmm. So that's
that part of the answer. Theother part of the answer is
you're absolutely right. You andI are about the same age.
(17:23):
I'm yeah. Nobody asked me how Iwas doing my first my first
civilian job either. But youknow what? The new generations,
they are the future. And whetherwe like it or not, we have to
adapt to that because they arethe one that in twenty years
when we retire, they're gonna dothe the job.
(17:44):
Is it gonna work? Is it notgonna work? Did is it better? Is
it worse? Some things areextremely better and some things
are extremely worse.
And, you know, the pendulum isgonna swing one way or another.
However, one of the things thatI find about the the generations
after us is that they come tothe office with the expectation
(18:10):
of of a sense of belonging. Youwant to belong. They need to
know what it is about them thatmakes them special. Is it
egocentric?
Maybe. I don't know. I don'thave that I don't have that
expertise. But if we wantsomething out of these people,
(18:33):
we have to tap into who theyare, and we have to tap into
what motivate them. One of thethings that I always say to
leaders is unless you use forceor violence, which obviously is
illegal in both our countries,to have people do things for
you, you cannot know human beingcan motivate another human be to
(18:59):
do anything at any time for anyreasons.
What we can do very easilythough is tap into their
motivations and bring them withus. What is it about what I'm
doing that's beneficial for youthat you're gonna want to do it?
And back to your third point,which is actually the first
(19:21):
thing that you said was, youknow, lawyer firms are, you
know, extremely fast paced andit's like, go, go, go, go, go,
go. I totally get that. But andthat was in the last McKinsey
report.
If you show empathy towards anemployee, the engagement goes
up. Engagement equalsproductivity. It equals bottom
(19:47):
line. It increases retention.How is that good for business?
It increases the bottom line by86% just by investing fifteen
minutes a week and actuallycaring. So I understand the the
the even though I'm not a lawyerand I'm thank goodness I have
(20:13):
not had to hire lawyers much inmy life except when I bought and
sold the business, I stillfifteen minutes per employee
just to care. Just care. Andwatch what that's going to do
you to your bottom line. Justwatch it.
No. Actually, you know what?Don't believe me. Try it. And
(20:33):
see how quickly these people aregonna be more engaged.
And I will add and shut up afterthat. And I will add, well, you
know, maybe taking a break oncein a while would be good for you
too as a as an individual intaking care of your people.
(20:54):
Humans are not designed to go gogo go go go go That's why people
die eighteen months after theyretire at 58.
Davina (21:02):
That is the nature of the industry, And I think there
are a lot of people who arechanging the industry. We have a
new generation of lawyers thatare coming in that are changing
the industry. We're seeing a lotmore people start their own
firms and try to create abusiness environment that they
want to have. And that's wherewe're seeing a lot more women.
(21:22):
Kind of my mission is to getmore women to start their own
law firms, grow their own lawfirms, and create the kind of
work environments that they wishwere available that are not
available in traditional biglaw, which moves very slowly and
changes very slowly.
So one of the things that reallystood out to me was this mission
(21:44):
oriented leadership because wewere talking about the military.
The military, it's about themission, right? And the military
does a great job in trainingleaders because they're mission
focused. And so I wonder, in ain a when we're talking about
(22:05):
leadership in a private vision,one of the things that I think
is important is to have amission that is bigger than the
money. Right?
So we have lawyers are out therein all different kinds of
practice areas, are doing reallypowerful work where they're
really giving back to people.They're either helping them get
(22:27):
divorced or they're saving themfrom life in prison or they're
helping them leave a legacy fortheir family so their family
doesn't struggle when they dieor, you know, just any time
personal injury, they're reallyhelping people get the resources
that they need to recover from alife debilitating injury. So
they're doing very meaningful.Of course, with the immigration
(22:49):
stuff that's going on, ourimmigration lawyers are just
really of saviors for a lot ofpeople right now. So there's a
lot of amazing work that lawyersare doing.
And I think there's often a lackof conveying that mission to
people and and helping them andand tapping into instead of,
(23:12):
like, the you know, you'repersonally about your trials and
troubles and things that aregoing on in your family, but
tapping into that gift that theyhave. Then you talk about how
the military is very good attapping into that gift and say,
what is it that you bring to theteam, and why is that special
and important? So I see a lot ofroom there in that way. So how
(23:34):
might we do that with ouremployees and sort of tapping
into what makes them such animportant contributor to the
team so that they fired in themission, in accomplishing the
mission?
Isabelle (23:49):
It's a great question. There's two ways. The way that I
do my practice, there's twoways, and I really strongly
encourage both and and actuallythe the first one that I'll talk
about I not only encourage Iimpose when working with me that
(24:09):
is. The first one is apsychometric assessment. So I
use an assessment that's fromSwitzerland.
It's called NOVA, and it's trulyabout how is that person's brain
connected. So the particularthings about NOVA is not only
(24:31):
will it tell you how thatperson's natural abilities are,
what's their, cognitivepreference, their behavioral
preferences, their communicationpreferences, but also what areas
have they adapted? So meaning,what areas are they completely
natural? In what areas of theirlives are you dealing with the
(24:54):
persona? So I when I work with ateam or a leader, I I do that.
That's that's the entry levelthing that they get because I
wanna be efficient, and I wannaknow who I'm speaking with so
that I can better provide theright tools for that person. But
adding to that is that they alsoget the reports for everybody on
(25:19):
their team. So this is how youcommunicate with this person.
And this is the kind of, youknow, work that this person
would be best at. So if you I'mthrowing things out there.
If you have one person that'sdata oriented or extremely
structured in the way that theirbrain is wired, why not give
(25:42):
that person all of the data,task management that there is to
be done in that particular lawfirm? So that's the first thing.
The second thing, other than thepsychometric assessment, is
actually giving them the toolsto really find out what is the
(26:04):
best thing for that individual.How do you communicate
effectively with that person?And it doesn't have to be having
them having every team memberconfide in you.
That doesn't it you know,sometimes you're their boss, and
it's it's okay if it's friendly.It doesn't mean that you're
gonna, you know, invite them allto your house for dinner. That's
(26:25):
not what I'm saying. It's justhow do you get to the human
behind the guy or the girl doingthe job? Right?
So how do you recognize or howdo you get connected on a human
level? And that's all there isto it. And you know what,
Davina? Most people, men, women,I know this is more women
(26:47):
centric, and that's beautiful,but we need to be recognized as
an individual. We all do.
We all need that. So but itdoesn't take much for us to have
that feeling that we were seenand heard and valued. It doesn't
have to be, you know, I my bosssends me on vacation for a week
(27:12):
every every year. That itdoesn't have to be that.
Sometimes just remembering theirtheir kids' names, their
spouse's name, what they didover over the weekend, how long
they've been in their houses,and etcetera, etcetera,
etcetera, that's enough.
And how they do what they do atwork and what tools they need to
do it better.
Davina (27:31):
Mhmm. I think the challenge, as somebody who's
been working with women law firmowners for over a decade, one of
the challenges I see with womenas they become bosses, and this
is common with small businessowners, is, you know, they start
out they're they're family.Like, I'm starting out. I'm
(27:54):
scared. So I hire people, andthen they become I get to know
them very well.
They get to know me, and there'salmost this little blending of
personal and business. But,really, that next level piece is
what I'm talking about here iswhen we're like, I think
oftentimes we tend to go too farwith it, and then suddenly we're
(28:16):
in a situation. So I guessthat's why I'm kind of pulling
at this thread a little bitbecause I think that's really a
challenge that a lot of peoplehave is they're too emotionally,
invested as though the peopleworking for them are their
friends. And then when they'renot getting sort of growing,
(28:36):
getting to the next level,they're sort of going, wait a
minute. I'm the boss.
How do I I'm let now I'm leftout of happy hours. And now
people are talking about me, andnow things are going. And so
they have to reframe and relearntheir position in the in the
business. So that's why I'm kindof pushing back on this idea of
(28:56):
kind of getting to know peoplebecause I don't think that's the
problem with the women I'mworking with. They know all
about everybody.
They know all about what's goingon and they're great. But then
if they're not performingbecause they're family, We're
all family here, right? This iswhere we struggle with
(29:20):
leadership. I don't see womenlawyers, and again, this is a
generalization because there arecertainly some out there who are
like, no, I don't want to knowabout your business. But
generally speaking, the clientsI work with, that's not the
problem.
The problem is is the leadershippro it's the stepping and
saying, and I see this thisdynamic show up particularly
(29:42):
with women working with women. Ihave worked in environments
where I've seen men will say towomen who are subordinate to
them, do this, do that. They go,yes. Okay. Okay.
Okay. And women working forwomen will will have this
little, like, who do you thinkyou are to tell me what to do?
(30:05):
Well, I'm the one who writesyour checks. And this dynamic
comes up a lot with womenworking with women. So as a
woman boss, a woman leader of anorganization, how do we break
that sort of cycle of and Ithink it's just a cultural
thing.
Like, women are brought up tocompete with each other on a one
(30:25):
on one sort of level. You know?We play games that are one on
one sort of level. We you havethe best friend, and if you have
a third friend in the bestfriend dynamic, it doesn't go
well. And so, you know, I Ithink there's a particular
challenge of for women bossesbeing you're either, you know,
you're either one of the gang orwho does she think she is.
Isabelle (30:52):
Well, I love that you pushed back. That's the first
thing because this is youraudience, and you you know their
reality better than I do. Ofcourse, I work again, I work
with it's very industryagnostic, what I do for a
living. Right? Right.
Excuse me. That one caught meoff guard. I I think that women
(31:18):
as leaders, what I'veencountered often, when dealing
with, women leaders is that,yeah, they wanna be part of the
gang. It's like, you know, theycare, and they sometimes scare.
I don't wanna say too muchbecause I don't believe there's
such a thing.
It's excuse me.
Davina (31:44):
Need to stop me. Grab some water, you can.
Isabelle (31:47):
Yeah. Thank you. There you go. I'm just gonna pause for
a second so you know where tocut. So I think that for women
leaders, it's not that theydon't care.
It's not that they don't investthe time. It's not that they
(32:09):
don't know who's doing what onthe weekends or whatever. Is
they want to be liked. They wantto be part of the gang. And I
love your example where, well,you know, if they hire just one
assistant and then or paralegaland then another, and then it
becomes a little tramp.
And then, you know, it's it'sthe the personal and the
(32:32):
professional gets allintertwined in that as soon as
the law firm grows and grows andgrows, well, eventually, you
are, you know, left out. And Ican certainly understand why
women would go, okay. So all ofa sudden, I'm the boss. Well,
no. You've been the boss allthis time.
It's just that it is easier. Thethe familiarity of things is
(32:56):
easier for a smaller group ofpeople. Right? So one of the
things that I encounter is womentend to want to be like liked
more than they want to lead, andit is unkind, and it actually
(33:20):
lack empathy lacks empathy tonot have the difficult
conversations when they need tobe had. So if somebody needs to
be fired or let go don't likethe word discipline or yeah.
Thank you. I like that wordbetter. It is your job and your
(33:46):
responsibility as a leader tosay, okay. You and I are
friendly, and I love our, youknow, personal relationship, and
you are part of my my family.But here, I am also the boss,
and I do need to make sure thatthis is aligned with where I'm
I'm taking my firm and that youare aligned with the, quote,
(34:10):
unquote, company culture.
And I recently had to coachsomeone to actually fire someone
they love. And the only thingthat I and it's a woman firing
another woman. And I said, youare not giving her the
opportunity to grow outside ofyour organization because she's
(34:33):
being extremely well paid andshe may not leave. But you don't
know long term if that's gonnabe bad or good for her. You're
presuming or you're assumingthat firing someone is bad for
them.
But you know what? I've beenfired once in my life, and,
Davina, thank god. Yeah. Becauseat the time, I didn't see that I
(35:00):
didn't fit. Right.
But you know what? If you don'tfit in an organization, it is
impossible that the reverse notbe the same thing. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Right?
Davina (35:13):
I once had a mentor say to me, he said, if you have
decided that there is no placewithin your organization for
this person to go because thetide has already turned in how
you feel about it, you're doingthem a disservice by not letting
them go so they can go findopportunity elsewhere. And that
(35:33):
was such a powerful, statementwhen I heard it. And I've shared
it many times over with myclients when they're struggling
with that because I think thereis that sort of feeling of, and
it's a little bit, patronizing.You know? And we don't mean it
to be.
But but I think they're going,you know, oh, I feel so bad
about firing this person becauseI worry about they've got kids
(35:56):
and they won't you know, and allthis kind of stuff. And it's
like, yes. But if they don't ifthey're not if they're not
excelling in their job here,there's a struggle for them, and
they need to go find the placewhere they really shine. And
that's not gonna be in yourorganization for whatever. And
so you're really doing them adisservice.
And and I have been fired. I'vebeen fired more than once. And
(36:18):
it it's one of those things thatit's I I tend to have a
personality where I stay toolong at the party anyway. Know
something's not good for me, butI tend to stay. I'm very loyal.
I like routine. There's a lot ofthings. So I've had people kick
me out of the nest and say, Youneed to go. Because I'm acting
(36:41):
out in a way, in anorganization, by not conforming
or not agreeing or not being onboard with something. And then
they're going, this isn't foryou because I'm not behind the
mission, basically.
And I never had anybody say thatto me in that way. It's always a
different you know, people putthings in different ways. But
reflecting back on a career andsaying all the times that I've
(37:03):
been fired has been somebodytelling me what I knew in my gut
but didn't have the courage todo for myself. Right?
Absolutely.
And it's always hindsight. Know,in the moment, it hurts. It's
never fun and all of that kindof stuff. But I think as a boss,
we really have to keep in mindand one of the things that I
(37:25):
talk to my clients about rightwhen we start is your business
is not your baby. You are thesteward of this business.
It is you are the steward, andyou have to make decisions, like
like, not what is best forDevina, but what is best for the
business. Right? Those are twovery different things. If you're
sitting here, you and I are in aconversation, what may be best
(37:50):
for me personally is to have youlike me, to go along to get
along, to not disrupt things.Way I can just disengage and go
on about my business.
But if I'm the leader ofbusiness, I have to think first
as a fiduciary, a steward ofthat business, and go, what does
(38:11):
this business need? And I needto be strong enough to give it
what it needs. And that's a verydifferent mindset, in terms of
of leading a business.
Isabelle (38:23):
Were talking not your friends either. You can be
extremely friendly with them,but your employees aren't
supposed to be your friends.Like, kids aren't supposed to be
your friends either. Yeah. Yeah.
They a loving, absolutelyphenomenal relationship with
your daughter, your son. Itdoesn't matter, whichever. But
you're still that person'sparent, and your job is to be
(38:47):
their parent. And their parent.And, you know, maybe when
they're 40, you're 60.
Okay. That's another ballgame.That's an adult win an adult.
But your employees, you signtheir checks, or you're in a
position of authority, period.
Davina (39:05):
Right. Right. And I think that is the challenge for
a lot of people as they grow. Sothis is why it's so important to
really invest in some trainingso that you're able to because
it's hard to be objective aboutyourself. We all have that blind
spot about ourselves.
When we engage in training,we're like having, oh, okay. I
(39:27):
hire people to help me hirepeople because I do not like to
go through the hiring process.And what I tend to do if I'm
meeting people for the firsttime and nobody else has pre
interviewed them is I will findsomething to like about
everybody. So I will be sittinghere going, I wanna hire them
all, or I will find somebodywith a personality that's
(39:51):
completely the opposite of minethat just immediately turns me
off. And it could be thatthey're the exact person I need
because I need somebody that'scompensating for my weaknesses
or the weaknesses on the team orwhatever.
So, I think knowing yourself,the only person you can control
(40:11):
is yourself. So the onlyperson's behavior you can
actually control is yourself. Sothen taking a look at yourself,
I think is critical. So if we'relooking at ourselves as kind of
assessing our leadership skills,what are just one or two things
that we should probably beasking ourselves in terms of our
(40:34):
leadership and finding kind ofthose weak spots in our
leadership.
Isabelle (40:40):
No, we shouldn't be asking ourselves. We should be
asking anonymously our directreports. And how do we do
Davina (40:49):
that? How do we do that if we have a small Create
Isabelle (40:52):
a create a a survey where they answer questions, no
name, piped, just and it's youneed the real answers and for
the same reason that you are nottheir friends because you're
signing their paycheck they needto do it in an anonymous way so
(41:15):
that you get the truth or atleast a direction towards the
truth. Of course, it's easier ifyou're dealing with an outside
coach because if I'm meetingwith your team, they're going to
tell me the truth. Right? Right.Because when I when I work with
a team, I meet with every singleindividual when I do their
(41:37):
either their debrief, but andand I tell them whatever you're
going to share with you with meis go you're you have complete
amnesty.
I am not sharing what you'regoing to tell me with anyone.
But if, you know, a team offive, if four people out of five
were telling me the same thing,well, then I know how what
(41:59):
exactly to address leads to.
Davina (42:02):
So that brings me to another question. Yep. When you
said four out of five aretelling me, so my question is,
you got one person telling yousomething. Is there ever a
moment when the employee iswrong? Yes.
Because I have seen where ofcourse, I'm working with the
(42:27):
CEOs of the law firm. I'mworking with the people who own
the law firm. Sometimes theywill say, So and so said this
about me as she was leaving, youknow, or said I'm toxic, or I
said this, or I did that, orwhatever. And most of the people
I work with are very they takeit to heart. They really
(42:50):
reflect.
What did I do? Did I dosomething? Am I this way or
what? And so I wonder, becausesometimes I think we could hire
the wrong people as well. Right?
There's that side of it whereI've hired the wrong person, but
I don't know enough what to lookfor. When you're kind of doing
(43:14):
this anonymous assessment, whatkinds of things are you pattern,
obviously, is something thatyou're looking for. Is there a
pattern?
Isabelle (43:24):
Is there a pattern? Is the majority of people and the
the the thing is when I meetwith the employees, each debrief
is ninety minutes. So I have alot of time, and I have tools to
to get to, okay. Is this aperception or is that fact?
(43:44):
Right?
So Right. And, honestly, if 90%of people are telling me the
same thing differently or with adifferent, you know, tone or
whatever, well, then more thanlikely, we're talking about a
fact. And it's not only aperception. Maybe somebody
(44:05):
perceived it to be, like, youknow, nine out of 10, it was the
most horrible thing. And theother one is gonna say, well,
it's a three, but it wasextremely unpleasant.
So that's perception. But ifeverybody is talking about the
same, I'll say flaw in thatword, but I'll say flaw, well,
then more than likely, it'ssomething to build on and to
(44:27):
work to work towards. Correct?Right. Right.
So but to your question, is issometimes the employee wrong?
Absolutely sometimes. And it'sthe same thing. The client's
always right. No.
Hell no. Hell no. The client'snot always right. Sometimes the
client is being served by thewrong person for them. I can go
(44:50):
to the greatest restaurant.
I don't like eating inrestaurants. I really don't. I
prefer my food. I it's sort ofhot. I don't have to wait.
I don't have to deal with crap.I just that's so if I go to a
five star restaurant here whereI live first of all, for me,
it's a waste of money becauseI'm not enjoying it. So you're
(45:11):
gonna ask me how that restaurantwas, and I'll say, okay.
Overpriced. And maybe you'regonna go and you're gonna say,
oh my god.
This was phenomenal. Like, whatare you talking about? Well, I'm
talking about my preferences.Right? Nobody's right.
Nobody's wrong. It's just that'swhat what that's what is for me,
(45:33):
and that's what is for you.Right? So is you know, are
employees wrong? All of thetime.
All of the time.
Davina (45:42):
Yeah. I think that's I love the idea of having, an
outside person come in and sortof, ask those questions and
evaluate and give that feedback,especially if you are if you own
the firm and you've had a lot ofturnover for reasons that seem
(46:02):
to be related to you or you'vehad people who say, I I I can't
work with you or you're toxic oryou if you're starting if you're
hearing those things, more oftenor in in some cases, again,
there are a lot of when you gothrough law school and you
become a lawyer, you oftenbecome very direct and very
(46:22):
pointed, which I actuallyencourage people to be because I
think a lot of times I grew upin the Deep South in The US and
there's a lot of honey and sugarthat goes along with everything
and there's a lot ofmisunderstanding and
miscommunication because of thatnot being able to be direct. So
I'd like direct. But I know thatthere are people who are
(46:43):
accustomed to that coming fromwomen especially and take that
and get offended by it. That'swhy I bring up sort of the
employee thing that maybe thereare some people that are better
for your personality and yourleadership style as long as your
leadership style is not toxic orpassive aggressive or something
like that.
(47:04):
We do need to end, and I reallyhate it because I wish we had
more time because I have I'veenjoyed picking your brain. I
know I've been grilling you like
Isabelle (47:12):
That is total. But I had to bagged with Vina. That's
okay.
Davina (47:17):
I love this topic. I've enjoyed it a lot. Tell us how we
can reach out to you and connectwith you if we wanna know more
about what you do and maybe talkwith you about bringing you into
our business.
Isabelle (47:30):
The first place is againsttheordinary.org because I
am against ordinary leadership.And the other place is on
LinkedIn. That's pretty much myhangout place. My name is
Isabelle Fortin, and there's abunch of us. Look for the one
with the purple hair.
Davina (47:47):
Okay. Good. And she does have beautiful purple hair. So
for those of you who arelistening to this and not
watching videos. Alright.
Isabelle, it was so great. Ireally enjoyed it so much.
Thanks for being here.
Isabelle (47:58):
Thank you for having me. I hope I didn't push back
too hard either.
Davina (48:02):
You did great. You did great.
Intro (48:04):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help clients
create wealth generating lawfirms with ease.
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