June 19, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I chat with Joan Perry—an international bestselling author, pioneering high-net worth investor, securities trader, and high-performance coach. Joan is on a mission to help women become the heroines of their own lives—and build lasting joy, prosperity, and freedom in the process.
Listen in as Joan and I explore:
• Why traditional financial advice often fails women—and what to do instead.
• The surprising truth about how women view (and use) money differently than men.
• How to recognize when your 'flower cart' wheels have fallen off—and how to get them back on.
• Why the path to wealth and freedom starts with self-worth—and the one mindset shift that changed everything for Joan.
• The universal plotline of the Heroine’s Journey and how it differs from the Hero’s Journey.
• How your biggest crisis might actually be the greatest gift you'll ever receive.
LINKS TO LOVE:
Learn more about Joan and her work at www.WalkTheJourney.com.
Imagine: scaling your law firm to multiple millions, working less, and enjoying the freedom and flexibility you deserve. It's possible, and I can show you how. For over a decade, I've helped hundreds of women law firm owners achieve this dream with my proven blueprint. Now, you can get your hands on this same blueprint for just $27. But don't wait, this offer won't last forever.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What if
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:43):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams.
Now here's Devina.
Davina (00:49):
Hello, and welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer
podcast. I'm your host, DevinaFrederick, and my guest today is
Joan Perry. I'm excited tointerview Joan today as she is a
very vocal advocate for womenbecoming the heroines of their
own lives. Her credits includeinternational bestselling
author, business owner, andsecurities trader, high
performance coach, pioneeringhigh net worth investor,
(01:12):
philanthropist, and publisher.And she hosts a podcast, The
Heroin's Journey with JoanPerry, found on all streaming
devices.
Joan is the author ofbestselling books, including The
Heroine's Journey, The Art ofBecoming the Heroine of Your Own
Life, and A Girl Banish theWhite Knight Myth and Take
Charge of Your Financial Life,Random House, and Living Proof,
(01:35):
Celebrating Gifts That CameWrapped in Sandpaper, coauthored
with Lisa Nichols. She hasappeared in major media outlets
such as the WSJ, CNN, GlamourMagazine, NPR's All Things
Considered, The Gayle King Show,and on major stages such as the
Commonwealth Club and inpersonal. Please join me in
welcoming Joan Perry to theWealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.
(01:58):
Hi, Joan. It's so nice to see you. How are you today?
Joan (02:03):
Lovely to be here. So happy to contribute to your
topic. Know, want women to beasset mamas, but I also want
them to have joy along withprosperity and freedom in their
lives. So let's talk about that.
Davina (02:16):
Good. We are. We're gonna we're gonna cover it all
and probably things we nevereven thought we're gonna cover.
We're gonna cover it all. So youare the author of The Heroines
Journey, and that is you youwrote a book about this topic,
and I want to get you to explainwhat that is.
In addition to that, you have aprogram around this, The
Heroin's Journey, and you'vealso written other books as
(02:39):
well. So why don't you start outand tell us a little bit about
the books you've written andwhat motivated you to write
them?
Joan (02:45):
Well first of all, when I graduated from business school,
I looked around and I said whatis the success path for a woman?
And the answer clearly came backto me whatever the men were
doing because after all theywere making the money at that
point. Yeah, right. So I pulledup my skirt, marched off to Wall
(03:07):
Street and went to work tradingmunicipal bonds. Let's just say
that being a lawyer and tradingmunicipal bonds are both an
attempt to go off and be youknow serve the world, make
money, do the things that we sawas being part of the traditional
(03:27):
economic pattern.
All that was well and fine andalong that way not only did I
run a securities brokerage firmand trade billions of dollars of
bonds in the markets, but Iwrote a book called A Girl Needs
Cash. And I have to tell yousomething very funny. When I
wrote that book, I really knewthat I was putting a pink skirt
(03:49):
on a pig. And what I mean bythat is that I was trying to
take the perspective that theguys had as they, you know, have
constructed the financialcommunity and just put it in
women's terms. And while thatserved to teach women a little
bit more about money, what itdidn't do was to change the
(04:12):
perspective.
And what I mean by that is thatthe hero's journey as described
by Joseph Campbell is to go outand fight the lions, tigers and
bears and bring back the bacon.Right. Okay? That could look
like being a lawyer, making alot of money, coming back with a
bacon and giving a large amountof money to your university or
(04:35):
college. Right.
You know, I mean, as I go to mycollege reunion and I see how
they celebrate. It's the menthey celebrate for just that
thing. In fact, I asked thepresident of the college that I
went to, so what is success fora woman and how do you celebrate
(04:57):
her? So all of this was kind ofthe thinking that was developing
in my head.
Davina (05:03):
Do you have an answer?
Joan (05:04):
I'm still working on him. But by the way, he's reading my
book right now. Because theanswer is nobody has asked that
question.
Davina (05:17):
Right.
Joan (05:17):
You know, it's not, it's obvious. We build monuments to
men and they have a weapon intheir hand. But how many
monuments do we build to women?And yet we have a significance
and a purpose and we're going todeliver something good and by
the way, I want women to beasset mamas. And what I mean by
(05:37):
that is to have your own wealthand well-being in financial
stability.
But I learned something reallyreally important. And that's
that a man will go singlehandedly down that hole of
creating income as part of hisrole in life. Right. Women see
(05:59):
money very differently. Womensee money so that it goes across
their life.
You know, money becomesimportant in a divorce, in a,
you know, health issue and insomething that's really part of
their lives. And when women talkabout money, they want to know
how it relates to the wholeaspect of their lives. Like if I
(06:21):
said So dig
Davina (06:22):
into that. Yeah, let's dig into that a little bit more
to explain that because I, sowith men, the money, the getting
of the money itself is anaccomplishment. And with women,
it's about fulfilling some needwith it, usually relational of
some sort or something. Right?
Joan (06:41):
And the only time they become really interested in it
is when it intersects with alife event. And that's going to
bring me to the importance ofthe heroine's journey. Money
gets really important if youlost your job, you know, if your
kid needs to go to college, ifyou're getting divorced. Other
(07:01):
than that, as women, wegenerally like not like to think
about it.
Davina (07:06):
Right. That's interesting. It's interesting
because I've been doing thiswork for a long time with women
lawyers. And one of the things Ifind is when I'm, like, when I'm
working with private clients,the first questions I'm asking
them is how much money do youwant to make? And they, what do
you want?
They never say money. Theyalways go into, well, I want
this or I want that or I wantthat. And they don't even relate
(07:28):
it to money. They don't even Ihave to ask them, how much?
What's the price tag on thatthing?
Oh, I hadn't thought about itbefore. They're focused on what
it gets for what, you know,without even putting a price tag
on it or saying it. So,oftentimes I'm kind of going
walking against the wind. Yes.And I'm talking with women and
money because a lot of ushaven't even thought about it
(07:50):
until we faced some life eventthat causes to because I know
that's what happened to me aswell.
Joan (07:58):
And me too. And I'd love if you'll share that because we
have a commonality, which is thecommonality of the heroine's
journey. I often say that oncewe even get money, women have
more money invested in theirclothes closet, their makeup
drawer, maybe their jewelry box,something they do in their
savings account.
Davina (08:17):
Yeah, handbags. I'm seeing a lot of very expensive
handbags on people who I knowbecause I've looked at their
books and their business andsay, you shouldn't be spending
money on handbags at this stagewhere you are in your life.
Right? But that's such a, ashowing of wealth. Right?
Like there's an expectation thatwe look a certain way and
(08:38):
represent ourselves a certainway for people to believe we are
a certain type of person. Right?
Joan (08:43):
But I ask I ask when I see that. But how much money is in
your wallet?
Davina (08:48):
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Joan (08:50):
Don't show me the handbag. Show me your wallet. You know,
show me show me your investmentaccounts. That's being an asset
mama.
Davina (08:58):
Right.
Joan (08:58):
And what we don't anticipate is that as part of
the heroine's journey, and we'llget to this, a major disruption
is going to happen in your life.And when we think about it,
where are we schooled to beplanning for our own retirement,
understanding of money? Did yourfamily teach you that? Did the
(09:22):
school you went to do teach youthat? We're left largely
untaught.
Davina (09:29):
Now, what I think is interesting about that too, is
that a lot of men are too. Weget in relationships with men
who also have not been taught.And yet there's an assumption
that what comes with thetestosterone is knowledge about
money. We often get married andwe say, well, my husband, I try,
he handles that. How manyeducated women have I spoken to
(09:52):
who say, oh, I don't know whatwe have in our retirement.
My husband handles that. Yes. Inin 2025. It's it's stunning to
me.
Joan (10:02):
And I'm gonna tell tell you a terrible story right now.
This beautiful woman came up tome one time when I was speaking
about a girl needs cash. Pearls,well dressed, lovely. And she
related the the story to me. Shesaid, can you please help me?
And I'm like, well, I'll try butprobably not on a personal level
right here. What she related tome quickly was that she had
(10:26):
depended upon that. And herhusband had mortgaged their
house, taken all the money outof their insurance, ran up, I
think it was about $350,000 incredit card debt without telling
her so that he could fund hisstartup company. And here's the
sad thing. She was now at apoint that my advice to her
(10:48):
actually had to be, you're goingto need to divorce him.
Davina (10:53):
Right.
Joan (10:53):
And she loved him. So she didn't want to hear that. But
the truth is, if somethinghappened to him, let's say he
died or whatever, she was goingto become responsible for his
debts.
Davina (11:06):
Right. Right. Right.
Joan (11:08):
And she had no concept about how she was going to live
well into her life.
Davina (11:12):
Right. Plus financial infidelity. Just the lie of all
of that in the marriage now.Here's what I so you and I are
not in our twenties and thirtiesanymore. Right?
And so one of the, I think oneof the things, the benefits that
we have for being older ishaving gone through some things,
(11:34):
right? And so what I find, is achallenge for me is how to say
to people that, you think youwill escape it. You think,
because when I was 20, when Iwas 30, I thought I would get
married, live happily ever afterfor the rest my life. And I
(11:54):
would marry somebody who hadmoney and we would go off in
this, and I would be educatedand have money. We'd store off
in the sunset.
Like there was a whole visionthat I wasn't even really
conscious, but just believedthat I would have. And yet
things happen in life, thatchange that. And it's hard for
people who are in their thirtiesmarrying with little babies and,
(12:16):
you know, going that whole thingto even think that will ever
happen. So they don't, they'refocused on sort of that moment.
It's hard for them to hear itfrom women who are older.
Joan (12:26):
Absolutely. And I'm going to tell you a story. My father
said, save for a rainy day. AndI looked at him and I said, I'm
not having any rainy days. And Itotally believed it.
Yeah. I just thought I was aprincess of enough that I was
going to go on with life. Youdid a really smart thing and
(12:47):
that's how you got a law degree.Okay? I did a really smart
thing.
I went to business school andgot my MBA. And went into
business so I could learn how tomake money. I was so blessed
because I had a mother who hadher own business and she taught
me entrepreneurialism. However,that is not enough. That is a
(13:09):
good start but that is notenough.
Because our culture, the creditcard companies, they all teach
us to be victims. It's so true.Have a credit card. Like you
just attain status of some sort.In my life, I've never had a
credit card.
Davina (13:28):
Wow.
Joan (13:28):
I use debit cards. I get along just fine and I can only
spend what's in my checkingaccount because honestly, I
don't trust myself to havecredit.
Davina (13:39):
Right. I learned that early. That's so interesting.
I've been I've been, listeningto a lot of Dave Ramsey's
content lately, not notparticularly because I love Dave
Ramsey or whatever, but it cameup and then I started. And now I
keep listening to all thesepeople call in talking about
their money problems that I'maddicted to listening to it.
And of course, he's a hugeadvocate of saying, never have
credit cards. Live your lifewithout credit cards. And so
(14:01):
there's been a lot of discussionamong my friends lately talking
about this and say, how do youfunction in a modern world
without a credit card?
Joan (14:08):
No need one.
Davina (14:09):
Because you have a security risk of putting your
bank out inform your debit cardout there, everywhere. Right? So
there's this there's this,belief in what he says is we've
been brainwashed to think thatwe have to have this product. We
have to have a credit score. Hesays,
Joan (14:26):
you don't an investment account and a banking account.
You put enough money in yourbanking account for your monthly
expenses. You keep your othermoney in your investment account
where it's not exposed.
Davina (14:40):
And that's how you get by with a debit card and no
credit cards.
Joan (14:44):
And I wrote those things in A Girl Needs Cash. It's great
about how to look at yourfinancial life, you know, and
but there's a difference. We'rewomen. Which is what led me
onward to write the heroine'sjourney. Because as we were
saying, and it's very hard totalk to younger women because
(15:05):
they don't want to believe it.
I didn't want to believe therewas going to be upset. My apple
cart was going to get upset inlife. And here's the way it
usually works. It comes out ofthe blue. Right.
Right. Somewhere around the midfifties, something comes out of
the blue. It's going to beeither financial, relationship,
(15:28):
health or self worth.
Davina (15:31):
And sometimes it can be before that. It can be in the
40s. It can be in the I mean,there's all kinds of we don't
know what it's going to be. Wedon't know what's going to
happen in our lives, you know,that will change things for us.
And we like to think that wewill be exempt from it.
Joan (15:47):
And here's what's happening. You construct the
first half of your life, whetherit's in your forties or your
fifties or even your sixties,you construct the first half of
your life for security andsafety. It's all about
impression. And then a verymagical gift shows up. And it's
(16:10):
called the crisis and challengestages of the heroine's journey.
Why is it a gift? Because itcalls you to your authenticity.
Davina (16:19):
In the moment, we don't think it's a gift.
Joan (16:22):
We don't think it's a gift. That's how
Davina (16:23):
you'll know what it is.
Joan (16:24):
I labeled it a disaster, the worst thing that could have
ever happened to me. I wasdoomed. I cried. I berated
myself. You know, that's allpart of the first part of the
heroine's journey, truly.
But when this shows up, you,your vision is shattered. Your
(16:45):
vision of what you thought lifewas going to be is shattered.
For me, it was a divorce. Andthen it was a huge family estate
problem. I didn't see any of itcoming my way.
But it impacted me in just inmore than just the financial
area of my life. Right. Andthat's the problem with just
thinking that that being asuccessful woman entrepreneur
(17:09):
and making money is going tosolve all the problems of your
life. It's not. And the reason Iwould position to you is that
we're missing something as womenthat I'm calling back.
The hero's journey that I wasdescribing that Joseph Campbell
so determined and it's the plotline for a man's life to
(17:33):
maturity. Okay. It's an externaljourney where you go fight the
lions, tigers and bears and youbring back the bacon. That's not
the path of a woman. In fact,when Joseph Campbell was asked,
do women have the same journeyin life to maturity that men do?
Shockingly, he reported to LizGilbert, famous author of Eat,
(17:55):
Pray, Love, no, they don't. Theystay home and cry. Oh, wow. Wow.
That sent me hurling towardswriting the Heroine's Journey
book.
I was like, oh, no, no, no.Fortunately, Joseph Campbell
matured later in life. Rightbefore my book was ready to go
(18:16):
to be published, I found anotherquote where he said, I don't
really know. A woman's going tohave to tell us that.
Davina (18:23):
Well, at least, yeah, at least he came out and said that.
So tell us what is the heroine'sjourney?
Joan (18:29):
So the heroine's journey, by contrast, is an internal
journey to claim your self worthand your voice. When that crisis
hits, you are called to yourauthenticity, not what you were
trying to make up about whatyour life looks to. And from the
(18:50):
smile on your face, I can tellthat you get this too. Yeah. You
know?
Davina (18:54):
Yeah. I've been there.
Joan (18:55):
All of a sudden, my life was like an onion that was
peeled to the core. Thingsdidn't work that I'd used in the
past. I didn't know what to donext. I didn't know what the
vision was for me going forward.And that was all intended on the
heroine's journey.
(19:16):
Now you might say scary,fearful. Yeah. But what I want
to teach you in the heroine'sjourney is how to go through it
with grace and ease. Because Iwould never change a thing that
happened on my heroine's journeynow because I like who I am now.
Davina (19:39):
Right. Right. Definitely. I'm smiling because
I can relate to that because Ihad, it's almost a maturity that
happens, right? You're goingalong and it doesn't happen at
the moment that the crisishappens.
It's something that happensafter the crisis happens. You've
(19:59):
passed it. You've done the hardwork through it. And then you're
reflecting back on it and you'resaying, what what just happened?
What was that all about?
And what meaning did it have inmy life? And how did I come out
of it? Who am I now that I'm onthis other side of it? So it's
so much more than just whenwe're going through it. And like
you said, I want to make surethat people don't miss this
(20:22):
piece.
It could be divorce, but itcould be a lot of other things.
A health crisis, what were someof the other things you said? A
health crisis
Joan (20:29):
It's one of four areas. It's a crisis of self worth.
It's a financial crisis. It's ahealth crisis, or it's a
relationship crisis.
Davina (20:41):
Right.
Joan (20:42):
It's going to be in one and if you're a hard nut to
crack like I was, it's in morethan one.
Davina (20:47):
You might get the whole trifecta. You know,
Joan (20:50):
at some points, I was saying, god, I know you love me.
I know you're trying to help mebecome the best person I can be.
For a moment. Could you go workon somebody else while I just
digest this?
Davina (21:01):
Yeah, I really need to skip some blessings right now.
Yeah, no, I get that because Iwent through that. I am a tough
nut to crack too because I wentthrough several. I had to learn
the hard way, but the big crisisfor me did not result in
divorce, but it did involve mymarriage and money and losing my
(21:26):
husband losing everything and,not through bad habits or
anything because his businesstanked. And there were some
things that were going on thatcaused that to happen.
And then his reaction to thatcaused a lot of issues. So the
combination of all that and itwas years. It was years of going
(21:46):
through that and recovering andsaying, who am I? Like, because
up until then, this is my secondmarriage and really the marriage
that the marriage I'm still in.And, and I I was you were
talking about voice.
What came out of it for me wasthis realization that I had
(22:10):
buried my voice so deep that Icouldn't even hear it anymore.
Joan (22:15):
Your authenticity.
Davina (22:17):
Right. And trying to And I remember I had a lot of people
advising me. I mean, like itaffected my career and
everything. And I had a lot ofpeople advising me to do this,
do that, do whatever. And I hadto silence all the noise because
my voice had become like thislittle flickering tiny pilot
light.
And I couldn't get it to flameuntil I shut out all the noise
(22:39):
and got really real with myself,this authenticity. I said, who
am I? Who do I want to be? Howdo I, what do I want? What do I
want to do?
Because until then I had beenfollowing other people's vision
of what my life should be.Particularly by very strong
parents who were in my head.
Joan (23:00):
Mine too. Mine too. You were busy creating your safety
and security and thinking thatthat was going to work.
Davina (23:07):
Right. Along their guidelines, the path that they
envisioned. Right. And it wasn'tauthentically who I was and what
I wanted. And I had, it was a,and I had to go through, all the
pain to figure it out and thento build back from there.
Joan (23:28):
Was just Would you change your thing now?
Davina (23:30):
Well, if I could go back and wave a magic wand, yes, I
could. But I also, when you talkabout loving who you are now, I
think about that often. Like,who I am now is somebody that I
really love being, right? And Ilove my life now. And I love how
(23:50):
I spend my days now and who Ispend my days with and what I
do.
Also the, the, for me startingthe business I started came out
of this idea of, I will nolonger just sort of float around
and expect, you know, otherpeople to have answers regarding
(24:10):
finances. I didn't have thatfinancial security. I married
somebody I thought was going tobe financially secure because my
first marriage was not that. Ithought this is going to be and
then ultimately it was me had tobe my own heroine in that
picture. And we're stilltogether and we have a great
marriage now.
But that took a lot of work onboth of our parts to grow into
(24:34):
who we are.
Joan (24:35):
Yes, absolutely. The heroine's journey causes you to
ask the big questions. That'sthe point. Right. Who am I?
Why am I here? What am Isupposed to do? What gifts did I
get delivered down the birthcanal with? How am I supposed to
implement them to serve otherpeople? It dismantles your
(24:57):
preconceived notions, the thingsthat you were doing that
actually weren't working, yournotion that you could control
your own life, And it asks youto come forth with who you are
meant to be.
And the challenge is there'ssomething bigger than us out
there that thinks we're biggerthan what we thought we were.
Davina (25:18):
I think too that this idea too, that I had this sort
of thing happen was like, thatwas it. No, that's not it. Like
I've got, I know now too, thatthere's going to be eventually
something else because life ishills and valleys, right? I have
two elderly parents. I have asister who's disabled.
(25:40):
I have things that could be thehealth crisis, be a month, like
we don't know yet, right?
Joan (25:45):
What else did you have more courage and strength.
Davina (25:49):
Yeah.
Joan (25:49):
And you knew at the time and you hero wind up. And the
arc of the heroine's journey isto create your stability, awaken
your authenticity, light up yourexpression and make your
contribution.
Davina (26:06):
All right, so tell us a little bit more about those.
Joan (26:09):
That's the arc of the heroine's journey. My book,
book, the heroine's journey,focuses primarily on create your
stability. Because how do wethat? I think and knowing from
our conversation, you think thatthat's true. And just to put
that into perspective, until youcreate your stability you're
(26:33):
going to live in prostitution.
Now that's why it might sound alittle harsh for me to say but
here's the truth. Until youcreate your stability and get
that, you can't skip forward andmake your contribution. You,
when you create your stability,you're creating the foundation
that you need. If you don'tcreate your stability, you're
(26:55):
gonna marry somebody you don'twant to be married to. You're
gonna take a job you don't wantto be married.
You don't want to be married to.You know, you're going to do
things that compromise your ownauthenticity.
Davina (27:08):
So let's talk about stability of what you mean by
stability. Cause I can just, sofor me, in my experience, there
was a financial stability pieceof it. There was like this idea
that I'm going to educatemyself, learn, protect myself
and all of that. And also thenother types of stability
(27:29):
relationship, who do I am? Whatdo I want?
All those kinds of things. Whenyou're talking about stability,
talk to me about what you meanby that.
Joan (27:37):
I love to give a graphic example because then you'll
remember it. Good. Okay.
Davina (27:42):
I love graphic examples.
Joan (27:44):
Imagine that your life is a flower cart. You know those
beautiful kind that are woodenand slatted on the side and the
woods gotten patinaed. You knowand it's got four wheels. And
inside that cart is loadedbeautiful flowers poking their
heads up for all to see. Okay?
(28:05):
In your flower cut cart are yourgifts, skills, and talents. That
you were naturally born with.Nobody comes here without gifts,
skills, and knowledge andtalents. We all do. But here's
the deal.
You're driving down the road.You kind of feel this funny
(28:26):
feeling and you're like, ugh,that back wheel's loose. Then
you look over your left shouldera little bit later and you're
like, that wheel just fell offmy cart. Now, my ass is dragging
on the ground. Okay?
So, you think beingentrepreneurial, you'll just get
out of the cart and pull itforward because you're trying to
(28:49):
get your gifts, your talents,your skills to market because
you're entrepreneurial and youwant to be paid for them because
that's what we're told is asuccess formula. Right. But it
doesn't work. So you go to theback of the cart and you start
pushing. And you think, well,maybe I could just push it to
market.
Well, be told, and I really getupset when I hear women say to
(29:13):
women, get empowered. Because ifall the wheels I
Davina (29:17):
can't stand the word empowered. Especially thought
that I'm going to empower you.I'm going to give you
empowerment.
Joan (29:25):
If all the wheels are off your cart, your cart is going to
sit on the ground and you'relucky if you didn't get flipped
into a gutter one way or theother. Right. It was so dramatic
for me that I got flipped fromgutter to gutter. Right. Okay.
So, what are the wheels on yourcart? The wheels on your cart
(29:47):
are people financial, physical,and self worth. I have a lens
for it and what I'm looking foras I know women is financial. I
most women have more on theircredit cards than they do in
(30:11):
their savings account. Theypeople.
They marry people that they haveto fix.
Davina (30:18):
Yeah, I've heard that story before.
Joan (30:21):
And in many cases want to dismantle your life.
Davina (30:27):
Right.
Joan (30:28):
They don't do the things they need to do so that their
life force energy is reallystrong. And they say crappy
things to themselves in theirbrains about who they are. Now
how far can you push your cart?If that's your promise?
Davina (30:47):
Those wheels are if one of those wheels falls off, or
more than one wheel falls off.Or all four of them.
Joan (30:54):
All four. And I still to this day when my life is not
quite going the way I want. Ithink which wheel is loose?
That's true. Because what theheroine's journey teaches you to
do is physically source yourlife force energy with all the
things that are good.
(31:14):
Enough sleep, you know,meditation. There's a whole
variety we teach. Financially,to run your life like a business
and make a profit at the end ofthe year.
Davina (31:28):
I love that. People
Joan (31:31):
surround yourself with a circle of love. And boot out
those who aren't on your team.
Davina (31:40):
Right.
Joan (31:41):
It's a skill. I've
Davina (31:43):
learned to And that can be really hard if a lot of the
people who are not on your teamare in your family.
Joan (31:49):
Yes, and we give you some strategies for that.
Davina (31:52):
Yeah, but that is a very, that's something too that
comes with when you go through acrisis a bit and you have a
realization and you look atauthentically who you are,
sometimes some of the people whoare your worst naysayers are the
most well meaning maybe orwhatever. People
Joan (32:14):
tried to tell me all kinds of things about myself. And
fortunately the heroine rose inme in a heroine's proclamation
that said you do not know who Iam. I'm not going to be measured
by my fall. I'm going to bemeasured by my rides.
Davina (32:30):
Right. Right. I love that.
Joan (32:32):
And you know that because you were in that dire, let's
call it dire situation. Whereyou had to muster everything you
had inside of yourself. To getyour wheels back on the cart.
Davina (32:46):
Right. Right. Do you even get up and get out of bed
some days?
Joan (32:49):
Yeah, me too.
Davina (32:50):
Right? Right. Me too. So, yeah. Yeah.
No, I understand that. I totallyget it and and for me, one of
the things so in my work,
Joan (33:00):
me finish for you. Go ahead. And the fourth wheel is
self worth. And that's learningthe skill so that you only tell
good things to yourself aboutyourself and you don't let other
thing people say things aboutyou that disable you. So for
instance in my brain I have adelete key.
(33:23):
If I hear myself sayingsomething crappy like, you know,
I'm too fat or I'm, you know,can't do this or blah blah blah.
Immediately, I go delete. That'sexcellent. Because that is not
gonna bring me to my best self.If I don't believe in me, who's
gonna believe in me?
So, those are the four wheelsthat you must get back on your
(33:47):
cart and that the heroine'sjourney is actually the it's
perfect for getting you onward,answering the questions you have
and leading to you to a life ofjoy, prosperity and freedom.
Davina (34:01):
Right. Right. The the, I love the delete key idea because
I think something else thathappens that we don't talk
enough about is that I get a lotof content on now because of my
age is menopause. And when youtalk about it like you think I'm
not going to go, okay, so maybeyou won't go through a divorce,
(34:22):
maybe you won't have an illness,maybe you won't. But let me tell
you sister, when menopause comesalong, if you are lucky enough
to live long enough, you'regoing to go through it.
And this in itself will changewho you are. It will change who
you are at the core. It willchange your life. It will change
your body image. It will changehow you see yourself.
(34:43):
It'll change what you thoughtyou knew to be true in the world
is no longer true about how youlook or how you feel or what's
going on with your body or allof that. So there are things
that are going to happenregardless, right?
Joan (34:57):
Of
Davina (34:58):
how perfect we try to be and how perfect we try to live
our lives and how
Joan (35:02):
perfect our lives. Because what I want women to understand
is that this is a universalprocess. This is a universal
plot line. It doesn't matter ifyou're Asian or American or
black or white or you know anyof that. This is a universal
plot line that goes through ourlife.
(35:23):
Now, we tell each other ourstories. You know, I've been
fascinated to watch DrewBarrymore and Kelly Clarkson
telling their heroine's journeystories lately because they're
going through it. You know, andwe're seeing them transform and
grow and become, you knowblossomed women because we're
meant to blossom as naturally asa rose. A rose can't say no I
(35:45):
don't want to grow. Yeah.
You're going that we'renaturally intended to blossom.
Right. And when we blossom, it'son the same path line. What we
haven't realized before now iswe tell each other our stories
and our stories are unique tous. So we find intrigue and
drama in them.
But the truth is we're tellingthem on the same plot line. And
(36:09):
once we understand that it givesus so much insight.
Davina (36:13):
Right. Well, and also makes us feel not so alone. You
realize that this isn't me beinga big loser. It's just like,
this is part of it. The contrastin life as well as the things
that you want or desire orwhatever.
(36:35):
There's another piece there,right? And that piece is meant
to help you evolve. Like yourwhole purpose in life is to
evolve and grow from what youexperience.
Joan (36:48):
Tell us. Want you to get the wheels on your cart so that
when that big bump does come inthe road, you have created
stability that helps you getthrough it as easily as
possible.
Davina (37:00):
So tell us some of the things that you did to get your
wheels back on the cart. I thinkthat's gonna be a natural
question for people is like,well, what do I do when one of
these wheels falls off of mycart? So tell us some of things
you did and maybe some examplesof, other people you've worked
with that have experience andwheels that fell off their carts
(37:22):
and sort of how did theyovercome that and get them back
on? What do we do?
Joan (37:26):
Well, first go to heroinesbook.com and get the
book. That's free plus shippingon that site. Right now it's my
gift and we just want to getthis concept out so that women
can start to think about theirown journeys in just the fashion
you're talking about. That's mywish, my hope, my mission, my
(37:50):
purpose.
Davina (37:51):
Right.
Joan (37:51):
So that's the first part. Then one step at a time, the
journey in the right ordercauses you to think about what's
going on there. Okay, so let'stake self worth, which is really
where we start, because that's aroot of it all. You know, if you
don't claim your self worth, andnow I treasure myself worth, I
(38:12):
do not let anyone get in the wayof it. I monitor it and I, that
is the one thing I can control.
And with self worth, what I'msaying to myself about in my
head is also monitoring. So selfworth is the place to start. And
(38:34):
I really had to get a deep focuson who who am I? And that's when
I retorted with such vigor tosay, You don't know who I am.
Because people are out theretrying to make a construct of
who they think you are.
Right. And it may not be helpfulat all.
Davina (38:55):
And again, these may be people that are closest to you.
People that you know, who'vebeen in your life, they may be
family, they may be longtimefriends, they may be people you
knew you when, and think of youas the person you were when you
were 16 or as the person youwere when you were 20 or
(39:16):
whatever. And they don't knowyour who you are now.
Joan (39:20):
And You you get an inkling of not feeling happy. And when I
would say to my father, I'm justnot happy. He would retort to me
that I was attractive, welleducated, you know,
opportunities were coming myway. He was referring to all
those external things. Becausethat's the culture we grow up in
(39:43):
and we learn to value that.
But truly, I was saying, I'm nothappy, I was talking about
internally. I was talking abouthow I built the scaffolding
inside of me that could hold meup in difficult times, in times
of other people saying thingsabout me that they were making
(40:05):
up. You know, it it was thestrength as a woman. And that's
what I hope we'll come back to.When you look at women and I
totally encourage you in thebook to look at pick out the
heroines that you've known inlife.
And all some of them might beEleanor Roosevelt or Amelia
Earhart or you know even Oprah.What we've seen is in the
(40:31):
process of them building thestrength inside of them. And
there's nothing stronger than awoman who claims her self worth.
Davina (40:41):
Yeah. Oprah is a great example of that because Oprah
talks about being about the theabuse she suffered as a child,
about the racism she suffered,about the sexism and misogyny
she suffered, not getting paid.You know, like they're great.
There are examples all around usof, of women who've overcome and
(41:02):
gone above and beyond. But it'snot just success, like you say,
in that external way.
May be somebody that lives downthe street from you that you've
not, that just looking at whothey are as person and saying,
this is somebody I would like tobe that centered or that solid
(41:23):
in myself and who I am and whatI want and all of that.
Joan (41:29):
In fact, if you're just looking to the external, like I
was, because that's what Ilearned from my family.
Davina (41:36):
Right.
Joan (41:37):
And I got to the top of the ladder. But famously I say
but the ladder was in the wrongbuilding. Yeah. That was not
really the best use of my giftsand talents. You know, of whom I
would have proud been proud forme to become.
Davina (42:00):
But you probably, but again, this goes back to that
piece was part of your journeyand shaped who you ultimately
were. Right? Yeah. Because youcould see what I don't want, who
I don't want to be, what I don'twant, what I do. But you also
(42:20):
financially, that you had theeducation around that and the
knowledge around that.
And ultimately that helped youto become who you are today.
Joan (42:29):
I made a lot of money. Yeah. But that wasn't the
complete answer.
Davina (42:34):
Right.
Joan (42:35):
I was more than And what I when you asked me, what did I
do? One big thing I did is Istarted to tell myself that
everything is perfect. Even inthe midst of divorce and family
estate problems and you know mytherapist said at one time Joan
(42:59):
there are so many fires aroundyou we don't know which one to
put out first.
Davina (43:04):
You're like yay that's what I want to hear.
Joan (43:07):
I was just sure that I was going to go up like Joan of Arc
you know?
Davina (43:12):
Oh, wow.
Joan (43:13):
But I started to say to myself, I can't see the whole
picture. I don't really knowwhat's going on here. There's
greater wisdom than me. So I'mjust going to decide that it's
all perfect as it is. And thatwas a huge turning point for my
life.
Davina (43:30):
Yeah, that is huge. And that's got to be hard, like in
the to be looking around you,there's fires all around you.
You think you're going to go uplike Joan of Arc and say, well,
this is just perfect and notsarcastically.
Joan (43:43):
Exactly. This is
Davina (43:44):
just perfect.
Joan (43:45):
I turned my attention from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
from blaming others to thinkingthat I was a victim, You know to
doing the things not doing thethings that were going to move
me forward. And transitioned meto heroining up. Because in
heroing up I had to accept thelessons. I had to accept that
(44:09):
everything around me was burningdown and maybe that was a good
thing, which it was by the way.I had to accept that maybe I was
being called into a new pathbecause that was my real purpose
and the way I was to best servein my lifetime.
(44:30):
It called me to writing theheroine's journey book. And I'll
tell you a funny story. So earlyon in my 30s, went to a course
that a man named Bill taught.And as part of his course was on
self esteem. First of all, I'dnever even heard the word
before.
I had no idea what it
Davina (44:51):
was. Interesting.
Joan (44:53):
All I knew was that I was an investment banker working on
Wall Street, and that must meanI was cool.
Davina (45:02):
And that's the pinnacle
Joan (45:03):
for And what was I set up to a big fall? Oh, yeah. Oh,
yeah. So for our life, he gaveus each what he saw as our word.
And the word he gave me waswomen.
And I almost threw it back athim with explicative words that
(45:25):
I don't need to say here. What?I don't. I'm working on Wall
Street. I don't know any.
And I'm not sure I like any.
Davina (45:34):
Well, you're one of the people who said I'd rather hang
out with men than with women.
Joan (45:38):
Yeah, exactly. How can you do this? How can you say this
about me? I mean, it reallyinfuriated me. So fast forward,
I am running a securitiesbrokerage firm, and I take a
left hand turn and write a bookcalled The Girl Needs Cash.
My blooming was bigger than myinterpretation.
Davina (46:00):
I wonder why he said women to you. I think
Joan (46:06):
he was just very intuitive and he knew that I was going to
be a leader in that arena andthat what I was trying to do not
only was it making me miserableas I fought the highly laden
testosterone world to try to getmy achievement out of that. He
saw something greater in me.
Davina (46:26):
Right. Right.
Joan (46:28):
And that's why you have to decide that it's all perfect.
Davina (46:32):
Yeah, I've never heard anybody say that before. Like I,
For me, it's everything isalways working out for me. I
love that everything is alwaysworking out for me. And so if
whatever's going on, When I comeback to that place when it seems
like there are fires, I go,everything is always working out
(46:54):
for me, meaning that I, there issomething that is going on that
is working out for me and I justdon't know it yet. I don't see
it, but everything always doesbecause there's always some
benefit to the things that aregoing on.
Right. Even if at first blush,they don't look like benefits.
But I've never heard that and Ilove that. I love it. It's just
perfect as it is.
Because I think that is a it'sinteresting to use the word
(47:20):
perfect because perfect is whatso many women, high achieving
women are focused on isperfection. They want to be they
want to look perfect. They wantto have a perfect relationship.
They want to have that's thegoal. And then of course they're
(47:40):
told, well, nothing is perfect.
But your set, your expressionthat helps you is, yeah, it
absolutely is perfect. What isyour idea of perfect? What does
perfect mean? And so you'vechanged that and turned it on
its head in terms of what itmeans.
Joan (47:57):
And I say to myself, life works for me and not against me.
Davina (48:01):
Yeah.
Joan (48:02):
And in the midst of the fires, the crisis is the
challenges is that's wherecourage and strength of a
heroine shows up.
Davina (48:12):
Yeah.
Joan (48:14):
That's where you frame your mindset to support
yourself. You heroine up to thetask you commit. That a man up.
Davina (48:25):
That's what we're doing.
Joan (48:26):
You commit yourself fully. I'm going to live a life of joy,
prosperity and freedom. That'smy mission.
Davina (48:36):
I'm not externally, it doesn't look like everything is
lining up the way I envisionedinitially.
Joan (48:41):
Yes, I no longer have an external vision of that. I have
an internal vision of that. Youknow? That's where my own
happiness lies.
Davina (48:53):
Yeah. Well, I do think that that is a I think a joy and
happiness, all of that is a is achoice. Like, we have to there's
always a way of looking atthings that can be, seeing the
fires, you know, and not the notthe warmth or whatever. Right?
We're looking at the fire andthinking it's gonna be
(49:14):
destructive and burn and we'renot looking at the benefit of it
or this that side of it orwhatever.
And that is a real inside job.That's inside your brain, inside
your mind, your viewpoint, howyou look at things, and it
changes your daily experience.
Joan (49:28):
My therapist said to me, you're the strongest woman I've
ever met and when she said that,I was like, I don't think so.
I'm, I grew up in Illinois. I'ma corn fed girl. You know, I'm
not strong and you know, it tookme a while but she was right. I
(49:49):
was stronger than I thought, hadmore courage than I thought, and
could go forward.
Davina (49:55):
Right. Right. So tell us again where we can get the book.
Joan (50:02):
You can get it at heroinesbook.com. Heroinesbook
Com. Heroin with an S. It's afree plus shipping offer right
now, so I encourage it becauseit's not gonna last for long.
And you can can follow me onsocial media, Joan Perry.
I hope to know you, support you,encourage you, and lead you on a
(50:28):
path to heroing up. Thanks somuch for having me.
Davina (50:31):
Thanks. Thanks for being here, Joan. I really enjoyed our
conversation today.
Intro (50:36):
You're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What if
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
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of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:43):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams.
Now here's Devina.
Davina (00:49):
Hello, and welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer
podcast. I'm your host, DevinaFrederick, and my guest today is
Joan Perry. I'm excited tointerview Joan today as she is a
very vocal advocate for womenbecoming the heroines of their
own lives. Her credits includeinternational bestselling
author, business owner, andsecurities trader, high
performance coach, pioneeringhigh net worth investor,
(01:12):
philanthropist, and publisher.And she hosts a podcast, The
Heroin's Journey with JoanPerry, found on all streaming
devices.
Joan is the author ofbestselling books, including The
Heroine's Journey, The Art ofBecoming the Heroine of Your Own
Life, and A Girl Banish theWhite Knight Myth and Take
Charge of Your Financial Life,Random House, and Living Proof,
(01:35):
Celebrating Gifts That CameWrapped in Sandpaper, coauthored
with Lisa Nichols. She hasappeared in major media outlets
such as the WSJ, CNN, GlamourMagazine, NPR's All Things
Considered, The Gayle King Show,and on major stages such as the
Commonwealth Club and inpersonal. Please join me in
welcoming Joan Perry to theWealthy Woman Lawyer podcast.
(01:58):
Hi, Joan. It's so nice to see you. How are you today?
Joan (02:03):
Lovely to be here. So happy to contribute to your
topic. Know, want women to beasset mamas, but I also want
them to have joy along withprosperity and freedom in their
lives. So let's talk about that.
Davina (02:16):
Good. We are. We're gonna we're gonna cover it all
and probably things we nevereven thought we're gonna cover.
We're gonna cover it all. So youare the author of The Heroines
Journey, and that is you youwrote a book about this topic,
and I want to get you to explainwhat that is.
In addition to that, you have aprogram around this, The
Heroin's Journey, and you'vealso written other books as
(02:39):
well. So why don't you start outand tell us a little bit about
the books you've written andwhat motivated you to write
them?
Joan (02:45):
Well first of all, when I graduated from business school,
I looked around and I said whatis the success path for a woman?
And the answer clearly came backto me whatever the men were
doing because after all theywere making the money at that
point. Yeah, right. So I pulledup my skirt, marched off to Wall
(03:07):
Street and went to work tradingmunicipal bonds. Let's just say
that being a lawyer and tradingmunicipal bonds are both an
attempt to go off and be youknow serve the world, make
money, do the things that we sawas being part of the traditional
(03:27):
economic pattern.
All that was well and fine andalong that way not only did I
run a securities brokerage firmand trade billions of dollars of
bonds in the markets, but Iwrote a book called A Girl Needs
Cash. And I have to tell yousomething very funny. When I
wrote that book, I really knewthat I was putting a pink skirt
(03:49):
on a pig. And what I mean bythat is that I was trying to
take the perspective that theguys had as they, you know, have
constructed the financialcommunity and just put it in
women's terms. And while thatserved to teach women a little
bit more about money, what itdidn't do was to change the
(04:12):
perspective.
And what I mean by that is thatthe hero's journey as described
by Joseph Campbell is to go outand fight the lions, tigers and
bears and bring back the bacon.Right. Okay? That could look
like being a lawyer, making alot of money, coming back with a
bacon and giving a large amountof money to your university or
(04:35):
college. Right.
You know, I mean, as I go to mycollege reunion and I see how
they celebrate. It's the menthey celebrate for just that
thing. In fact, I asked thepresident of the college that I
went to, so what is success fora woman and how do you celebrate
(04:57):
her? So all of this was kind ofthe thinking that was developing
in my head.
Davina (05:03):
Do you have an answer?
Joan (05:04):
I'm still working on him. But by the way, he's reading my
book right now. Because theanswer is nobody has asked that
question.
Davina (05:17):
Right.
Joan (05:17):
You know, it's not, it's obvious. We build monuments to
men and they have a weapon intheir hand. But how many
monuments do we build to women?And yet we have a significance
and a purpose and we're going todeliver something good and by
the way, I want women to beasset mamas. And what I mean by
(05:37):
that is to have your own wealthand well-being in financial
stability.
But I learned something reallyreally important. And that's
that a man will go singlehandedly down that hole of
creating income as part of hisrole in life. Right. Women see
(05:59):
money very differently. Womensee money so that it goes across
their life.
You know, money becomesimportant in a divorce, in a,
you know, health issue and insomething that's really part of
their lives. And when women talkabout money, they want to know
how it relates to the wholeaspect of their lives. Like if I
(06:21):
said So dig
Davina (06:22):
into that. Yeah, let's dig into that a little bit more
to explain that because I, sowith men, the money, the getting
of the money itself is anaccomplishment. And with women,
it's about fulfilling some needwith it, usually relational of
some sort or something. Right?
Joan (06:41):
And the only time they become really interested in it
is when it intersects with alife event. And that's going to
bring me to the importance ofthe heroine's journey. Money
gets really important if youlost your job, you know, if your
kid needs to go to college, ifyou're getting divorced. Other
(07:01):
than that, as women, wegenerally like not like to think
about it.
Davina (07:06):
Right. That's interesting. It's interesting
because I've been doing thiswork for a long time with women
lawyers. And one of the things Ifind is when I'm, like, when I'm
working with private clients,the first questions I'm asking
them is how much money do youwant to make? And they, what do
you want?
They never say money. Theyalways go into, well, I want
this or I want that or I wantthat. And they don't even relate
(07:28):
it to money. They don't even Ihave to ask them, how much?
What's the price tag on thatthing?
Oh, I hadn't thought about itbefore. They're focused on what
it gets for what, you know,without even putting a price tag
on it or saying it. So,oftentimes I'm kind of going
walking against the wind. Yes.And I'm talking with women and
money because a lot of ushaven't even thought about it
(07:50):
until we faced some life eventthat causes to because I know
that's what happened to me aswell.
Joan (07:58):
And me too. And I'd love if you'll share that because we
have a commonality, which is thecommonality of the heroine's
journey. I often say that oncewe even get money, women have
more money invested in theirclothes closet, their makeup
drawer, maybe their jewelry box,something they do in their
savings account.
Davina (08:17):
Yeah, handbags. I'm seeing a lot of very expensive
handbags on people who I knowbecause I've looked at their
books and their business andsay, you shouldn't be spending
money on handbags at this stagewhere you are in your life.
Right? But that's such a, ashowing of wealth. Right?
Like there's an expectation thatwe look a certain way and
(08:38):
represent ourselves a certainway for people to believe we are
a certain type of person. Right?
Joan (08:43):
But I ask I ask when I see that. But how much money is in
your wallet?
Davina (08:48):
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Joan (08:50):
Don't show me the handbag. Show me your wallet. You know,
show me show me your investmentaccounts. That's being an asset
mama.
Davina (08:58):
Right.
Joan (08:58):
And what we don't anticipate is that as part of
the heroine's journey, and we'llget to this, a major disruption
is going to happen in your life.And when we think about it,
where are we schooled to beplanning for our own retirement,
understanding of money? Did yourfamily teach you that? Did the
(09:22):
school you went to do teach youthat? We're left largely
untaught.
Davina (09:29):
Now, what I think is interesting about that too, is
that a lot of men are too. Weget in relationships with men
who also have not been taught.And yet there's an assumption
that what comes with thetestosterone is knowledge about
money. We often get married andwe say, well, my husband, I try,
he handles that. How manyeducated women have I spoken to
(09:52):
who say, oh, I don't know whatwe have in our retirement.
My husband handles that. Yes. Inin 2025. It's it's stunning to
me.
Joan (10:02):
And I'm gonna tell tell you a terrible story right now.
This beautiful woman came up tome one time when I was speaking
about a girl needs cash. Pearls,well dressed, lovely. And she
related the the story to me. Shesaid, can you please help me?
And I'm like, well, I'll try butprobably not on a personal level
right here. What she related tome quickly was that she had
(10:26):
depended upon that. And herhusband had mortgaged their
house, taken all the money outof their insurance, ran up, I
think it was about $350,000 incredit card debt without telling
her so that he could fund hisstartup company. And here's the
sad thing. She was now at apoint that my advice to her
(10:48):
actually had to be, you're goingto need to divorce him.
Davina (10:53):
Right.
Joan (10:53):
And she loved him. So she didn't want to hear that. But
the truth is, if somethinghappened to him, let's say he
died or whatever, she was goingto become responsible for his
debts.
Davina (11:06):
Right. Right. Right.
Joan (11:08):
And she had no concept about how she was going to live
well into her life.
Davina (11:12):
Right. Plus financial infidelity. Just the lie of all
of that in the marriage now.Here's what I so you and I are
not in our twenties and thirtiesanymore. Right?
And so one of the, I think oneof the things, the benefits that
we have for being older ishaving gone through some things,
(11:34):
right? And so what I find, is achallenge for me is how to say
to people that, you think youwill escape it. You think,
because when I was 20, when Iwas 30, I thought I would get
married, live happily ever afterfor the rest my life. And I
(11:54):
would marry somebody who hadmoney and we would go off in
this, and I would be educatedand have money. We'd store off
in the sunset.
Like there was a whole visionthat I wasn't even really
conscious, but just believedthat I would have. And yet
things happen in life, thatchange that. And it's hard for
people who are in their thirtiesmarrying with little babies and,
(12:16):
you know, going that whole thingto even think that will ever
happen. So they don't, they'refocused on sort of that moment.
It's hard for them to hear itfrom women who are older.
Joan (12:26):
Absolutely. And I'm going to tell you a story. My father
said, save for a rainy day. AndI looked at him and I said, I'm
not having any rainy days. And Itotally believed it.
Yeah. I just thought I was aprincess of enough that I was
going to go on with life. Youdid a really smart thing and
(12:47):
that's how you got a law degree.Okay? I did a really smart
thing.
I went to business school andgot my MBA. And went into
business so I could learn how tomake money. I was so blessed
because I had a mother who hadher own business and she taught
me entrepreneurialism. However,that is not enough. That is a
(13:09):
good start but that is notenough.
Because our culture, the creditcard companies, they all teach
us to be victims. It's so true.Have a credit card. Like you
just attain status of some sort.In my life, I've never had a
credit card.
Davina (13:28):
Wow.
Joan (13:28):
I use debit cards. I get along just fine and I can only
spend what's in my checkingaccount because honestly, I
don't trust myself to havecredit.
Davina (13:39):
Right. I learned that early. That's so interesting.
I've been I've been, listeningto a lot of Dave Ramsey's
content lately, not notparticularly because I love Dave
Ramsey or whatever, but it cameup and then I started. And now I
keep listening to all thesepeople call in talking about
their money problems that I'maddicted to listening to it.
And of course, he's a hugeadvocate of saying, never have
credit cards. Live your lifewithout credit cards. And so
(14:01):
there's been a lot of discussionamong my friends lately talking
about this and say, how do youfunction in a modern world
without a credit card?
Joan (14:08):
No need one.
Davina (14:09):
Because you have a security risk of putting your
bank out inform your debit cardout there, everywhere. Right? So
there's this there's this,belief in what he says is we've
been brainwashed to think thatwe have to have this product. We
have to have a credit score. Hesays,
Joan (14:26):
you don't an investment account and a banking account.
You put enough money in yourbanking account for your monthly
expenses. You keep your othermoney in your investment account
where it's not exposed.
Davina (14:40):
And that's how you get by with a debit card and no
credit cards.
Joan (14:44):
And I wrote those things in A Girl Needs Cash. It's great
about how to look at yourfinancial life, you know, and
but there's a difference. We'rewomen. Which is what led me
onward to write the heroine'sjourney. Because as we were
saying, and it's very hard totalk to younger women because
(15:05):
they don't want to believe it.
I didn't want to believe therewas going to be upset. My apple
cart was going to get upset inlife. And here's the way it
usually works. It comes out ofthe blue. Right.
Right. Somewhere around the midfifties, something comes out of
the blue. It's going to beeither financial, relationship,
(15:28):
health or self worth.
Davina (15:31):
And sometimes it can be before that. It can be in the
40s. It can be in the I mean,there's all kinds of we don't
know what it's going to be. Wedon't know what's going to
happen in our lives, you know,that will change things for us.
And we like to think that wewill be exempt from it.
Joan (15:47):
And here's what's happening. You construct the
first half of your life, whetherit's in your forties or your
fifties or even your sixties,you construct the first half of
your life for security andsafety. It's all about
impression. And then a verymagical gift shows up. And it's
(16:10):
called the crisis and challengestages of the heroine's journey.
Why is it a gift? Because itcalls you to your authenticity.
Davina (16:19):
In the moment, we don't think it's a gift.
Joan (16:22):
We don't think it's a gift. That's how
Davina (16:23):
you'll know what it is.
Joan (16:24):
I labeled it a disaster, the worst thing that could have
ever happened to me. I wasdoomed. I cried. I berated
myself. You know, that's allpart of the first part of the
heroine's journey, truly.
But when this shows up, you,your vision is shattered. Your
(16:45):
vision of what you thought lifewas going to be is shattered.
For me, it was a divorce. Andthen it was a huge family estate
problem. I didn't see any of itcoming my way.
But it impacted me in just inmore than just the financial
area of my life. Right. Andthat's the problem with just
thinking that that being asuccessful woman entrepreneur
(17:09):
and making money is going tosolve all the problems of your
life. It's not. And the reason Iwould position to you is that
we're missing something as womenthat I'm calling back.
The hero's journey that I wasdescribing that Joseph Campbell
so determined and it's the plotline for a man's life to
(17:33):
maturity. Okay. It's an externaljourney where you go fight the
lions, tigers and bears and youbring back the bacon. That's not
the path of a woman. In fact,when Joseph Campbell was asked,
do women have the same journeyin life to maturity that men do?
Shockingly, he reported to LizGilbert, famous author of Eat,
(17:55):
Pray, Love, no, they don't. Theystay home and cry. Oh, wow. Wow.
That sent me hurling towardswriting the Heroine's Journey
book.
I was like, oh, no, no, no.Fortunately, Joseph Campbell
matured later in life. Rightbefore my book was ready to go
(18:16):
to be published, I found anotherquote where he said, I don't
really know. A woman's going tohave to tell us that.
Davina (18:23):
Well, at least, yeah, at least he came out and said that.
So tell us what is the heroine'sjourney?
Joan (18:29):
So the heroine's journey, by contrast, is an internal
journey to claim your self worthand your voice. When that crisis
hits, you are called to yourauthenticity, not what you were
trying to make up about whatyour life looks to. And from the
(18:50):
smile on your face, I can tellthat you get this too. Yeah. You
know?
Davina (18:54):
Yeah. I've been there.
Joan (18:55):
All of a sudden, my life was like an onion that was
peeled to the core. Thingsdidn't work that I'd used in the
past. I didn't know what to donext. I didn't know what the
vision was for me going forward.And that was all intended on the
heroine's journey.
(19:16):
Now you might say scary,fearful. Yeah. But what I want
to teach you in the heroine'sjourney is how to go through it
with grace and ease. Because Iwould never change a thing that
happened on my heroine's journeynow because I like who I am now.
Davina (19:39):
Right. Right. Definitely. I'm smiling because
I can relate to that because Ihad, it's almost a maturity that
happens, right? You're goingalong and it doesn't happen at
the moment that the crisishappens.
It's something that happensafter the crisis happens. You've
(19:59):
passed it. You've done the hardwork through it. And then you're
reflecting back on it and you'resaying, what what just happened?
What was that all about?
And what meaning did it have inmy life? And how did I come out
of it? Who am I now that I'm onthis other side of it? So it's
so much more than just whenwe're going through it. And like
you said, I want to make surethat people don't miss this
(20:22):
piece.
It could be divorce, but itcould be a lot of other things.
A health crisis, what were someof the other things you said? A
health crisis
Joan (20:29):
It's one of four areas. It's a crisis of self worth.
It's a financial crisis. It's ahealth crisis, or it's a
relationship crisis.
Davina (20:41):
Right.
Joan (20:42):
It's going to be in one and if you're a hard nut to
crack like I was, it's in morethan one.
Davina (20:47):
You might get the whole trifecta. You know,
Joan (20:50):
at some points, I was saying, god, I know you love me.
I know you're trying to help mebecome the best person I can be.
For a moment. Could you go workon somebody else while I just
digest this?
Davina (21:01):
Yeah, I really need to skip some blessings right now.
Yeah, no, I get that because Iwent through that. I am a tough
nut to crack too because I wentthrough several. I had to learn
the hard way, but the big crisisfor me did not result in
divorce, but it did involve mymarriage and money and losing my
(21:26):
husband losing everything and,not through bad habits or
anything because his businesstanked. And there were some
things that were going on thatcaused that to happen.
And then his reaction to thatcaused a lot of issues. So the
combination of all that and itwas years. It was years of going
(21:46):
through that and recovering andsaying, who am I? Like, because
up until then, this is my secondmarriage and really the marriage
that the marriage I'm still in.And, and I I was you were
talking about voice.
What came out of it for me wasthis realization that I had
(22:10):
buried my voice so deep that Icouldn't even hear it anymore.
Joan (22:15):
Your authenticity.
Davina (22:17):
Right. And trying to And I remember I had a lot of people
advising me. I mean, like itaffected my career and
everything. And I had a lot ofpeople advising me to do this,
do that, do whatever. And I hadto silence all the noise because
my voice had become like thislittle flickering tiny pilot
light.
And I couldn't get it to flameuntil I shut out all the noise
(22:39):
and got really real with myself,this authenticity. I said, who
am I? Who do I want to be? Howdo I, what do I want? What do I
want to do?
Because until then I had beenfollowing other people's vision
of what my life should be.Particularly by very strong
parents who were in my head.
Joan (23:00):
Mine too. Mine too. You were busy creating your safety
and security and thinking thatthat was going to work.
Davina (23:07):
Right. Along their guidelines, the path that they
envisioned. Right. And it wasn'tauthentically who I was and what
I wanted. And I had, it was a,and I had to go through, all the
pain to figure it out and thento build back from there.
Joan (23:28):
Was just Would you change your thing now?
Davina (23:30):
Well, if I could go back and wave a magic wand, yes, I
could. But I also, when you talkabout loving who you are now, I
think about that often. Like,who I am now is somebody that I
really love being, right? And Ilove my life now. And I love how
(23:50):
I spend my days now and who Ispend my days with and what I
do.
Also the, the, for me startingthe business I started came out
of this idea of, I will nolonger just sort of float around
and expect, you know, otherpeople to have answers regarding
(24:10):
finances. I didn't have thatfinancial security. I married
somebody I thought was going tobe financially secure because my
first marriage was not that. Ithought this is going to be and
then ultimately it was me had tobe my own heroine in that
picture. And we're stilltogether and we have a great
marriage now.
But that took a lot of work onboth of our parts to grow into
(24:34):
who we are.
Joan (24:35):
Yes, absolutely. The heroine's journey causes you to
ask the big questions. That'sthe point. Right. Who am I?
Why am I here? What am Isupposed to do? What gifts did I
get delivered down the birthcanal with? How am I supposed to
implement them to serve otherpeople? It dismantles your
(24:57):
preconceived notions, the thingsthat you were doing that
actually weren't working, yournotion that you could control
your own life, And it asks youto come forth with who you are
meant to be.
And the challenge is there'ssomething bigger than us out
there that thinks we're biggerthan what we thought we were.
Davina (25:18):
I think too that this idea too, that I had this sort
of thing happen was like, thatwas it. No, that's not it. Like
I've got, I know now too, thatthere's going to be eventually
something else because life ishills and valleys, right? I have
two elderly parents. I have asister who's disabled.
(25:40):
I have things that could be thehealth crisis, be a month, like
we don't know yet, right?
Joan (25:45):
What else did you have more courage and strength.
Davina (25:49):
Yeah.
Joan (25:49):
And you knew at the time and you hero wind up. And the
arc of the heroine's journey isto create your stability, awaken
your authenticity, light up yourexpression and make your
contribution.
Davina (26:06):
All right, so tell us a little bit more about those.
Joan (26:09):
That's the arc of the heroine's journey. My book,
book, the heroine's journey,focuses primarily on create your
stability. Because how do wethat? I think and knowing from
our conversation, you think thatthat's true. And just to put
that into perspective, until youcreate your stability you're
(26:33):
going to live in prostitution.
Now that's why it might sound alittle harsh for me to say but
here's the truth. Until youcreate your stability and get
that, you can't skip forward andmake your contribution. You,
when you create your stability,you're creating the foundation
that you need. If you don'tcreate your stability, you're
(26:55):
gonna marry somebody you don'twant to be married to. You're
gonna take a job you don't wantto be married.
You don't want to be married to.You know, you're going to do
things that compromise your ownauthenticity.
Davina (27:08):
So let's talk about stability of what you mean by
stability. Cause I can just, sofor me, in my experience, there
was a financial stability pieceof it. There was like this idea
that I'm going to educatemyself, learn, protect myself
and all of that. And also thenother types of stability
(27:29):
relationship, who do I am? Whatdo I want?
All those kinds of things. Whenyou're talking about stability,
talk to me about what you meanby that.
Joan (27:37):
I love to give a graphic example because then you'll
remember it. Good. Okay.
Davina (27:42):
I love graphic examples.
Joan (27:44):
Imagine that your life is a flower cart. You know those
beautiful kind that are woodenand slatted on the side and the
woods gotten patinaed. You knowand it's got four wheels. And
inside that cart is loadedbeautiful flowers poking their
heads up for all to see. Okay?
(28:05):
In your flower cut cart are yourgifts, skills, and talents. That
you were naturally born with.Nobody comes here without gifts,
skills, and knowledge andtalents. We all do. But here's
the deal.
You're driving down the road.You kind of feel this funny
(28:26):
feeling and you're like, ugh,that back wheel's loose. Then
you look over your left shouldera little bit later and you're
like, that wheel just fell offmy cart. Now, my ass is dragging
on the ground. Okay?
So, you think beingentrepreneurial, you'll just get
out of the cart and pull itforward because you're trying to
(28:49):
get your gifts, your talents,your skills to market because
you're entrepreneurial and youwant to be paid for them because
that's what we're told is asuccess formula. Right. But it
doesn't work. So you go to theback of the cart and you start
pushing. And you think, well,maybe I could just push it to
market.
Well, be told, and I really getupset when I hear women say to
(29:13):
women, get empowered. Because ifall the wheels I
Davina (29:17):
can't stand the word empowered. Especially thought
that I'm going to empower you.I'm going to give you
empowerment.
Joan (29:25):
If all the wheels are off your cart, your cart is going to
sit on the ground and you'relucky if you didn't get flipped
into a gutter one way or theother. Right. It was so dramatic
for me that I got flipped fromgutter to gutter. Right. Okay.
So, what are the wheels on yourcart? The wheels on your cart
(29:47):
are people financial, physical,and self worth. I have a lens
for it and what I'm looking foras I know women is financial. I
most women have more on theircredit cards than they do in
(30:11):
their savings account. Theypeople.
They marry people that they haveto fix.
Davina (30:18):
Yeah, I've heard that story before.
Joan (30:21):
And in many cases want to dismantle your life.
Davina (30:27):
Right.
Joan (30:28):
They don't do the things they need to do so that their
life force energy is reallystrong. And they say crappy
things to themselves in theirbrains about who they are. Now
how far can you push your cart?If that's your promise?
Davina (30:47):
Those wheels are if one of those wheels falls off, or
more than one wheel falls off.Or all four of them.
Joan (30:54):
All four. And I still to this day when my life is not
quite going the way I want. Ithink which wheel is loose?
That's true. Because what theheroine's journey teaches you to
do is physically source yourlife force energy with all the
things that are good.
(31:14):
Enough sleep, you know,meditation. There's a whole
variety we teach. Financially,to run your life like a business
and make a profit at the end ofthe year.
Davina (31:28):
I love that. People
Joan (31:31):
surround yourself with a circle of love. And boot out
those who aren't on your team.
Davina (31:40):
Right.
Joan (31:41):
It's a skill. I've
Davina (31:43):
learned to And that can be really hard if a lot of the
people who are not on your teamare in your family.
Joan (31:49):
Yes, and we give you some strategies for that.
Davina (31:52):
Yeah, but that is a very, that's something too that
comes with when you go through acrisis a bit and you have a
realization and you look atauthentically who you are,
sometimes some of the people whoare your worst naysayers are the
most well meaning maybe orwhatever. People
Joan (32:14):
tried to tell me all kinds of things about myself. And
fortunately the heroine rose inme in a heroine's proclamation
that said you do not know who Iam. I'm not going to be measured
by my fall. I'm going to bemeasured by my rides.
Davina (32:30):
Right. Right. I love that.
Joan (32:32):
And you know that because you were in that dire, let's
call it dire situation. Whereyou had to muster everything you
had inside of yourself. To getyour wheels back on the cart.
Davina (32:46):
Right. Right. Do you even get up and get out of bed
some days?
Joan (32:49):
Yeah, me too.
Davina (32:50):
Right? Right. Me too. So, yeah. Yeah.
No, I understand that. I totallyget it and and for me, one of
the things so in my work,
Joan (33:00):
me finish for you. Go ahead. And the fourth wheel is
self worth. And that's learningthe skill so that you only tell
good things to yourself aboutyourself and you don't let other
thing people say things aboutyou that disable you. So for
instance in my brain I have adelete key.
(33:23):
If I hear myself sayingsomething crappy like, you know,
I'm too fat or I'm, you know,can't do this or blah blah blah.
Immediately, I go delete. That'sexcellent. Because that is not
gonna bring me to my best self.If I don't believe in me, who's
gonna believe in me?
So, those are the four wheelsthat you must get back on your
(33:47):
cart and that the heroine'sjourney is actually the it's
perfect for getting you onward,answering the questions you have
and leading to you to a life ofjoy, prosperity and freedom.
Davina (34:01):
Right. Right. The the, I love the delete key idea because
I think something else thathappens that we don't talk
enough about is that I get a lotof content on now because of my
age is menopause. And when youtalk about it like you think I'm
not going to go, okay, so maybeyou won't go through a divorce,
(34:22):
maybe you won't have an illness,maybe you won't. But let me tell
you sister, when menopause comesalong, if you are lucky enough
to live long enough, you'regoing to go through it.
And this in itself will changewho you are. It will change who
you are at the core. It willchange your life. It will change
your body image. It will changehow you see yourself.
(34:43):
It'll change what you thoughtyou knew to be true in the world
is no longer true about how youlook or how you feel or what's
going on with your body or allof that. So there are things
that are going to happenregardless, right?
Joan (34:57):
Of
Davina (34:58):
how perfect we try to be and how perfect we try to live
our lives and how
Joan (35:02):
perfect our lives. Because what I want women to understand
is that this is a universalprocess. This is a universal
plot line. It doesn't matter ifyou're Asian or American or
black or white or you know anyof that. This is a universal
plot line that goes through ourlife.
(35:23):
Now, we tell each other ourstories. You know, I've been
fascinated to watch DrewBarrymore and Kelly Clarkson
telling their heroine's journeystories lately because they're
going through it. You know, andwe're seeing them transform and
grow and become, you knowblossomed women because we're
meant to blossom as naturally asa rose. A rose can't say no I
(35:45):
don't want to grow. Yeah.
You're going that we'renaturally intended to blossom.
Right. And when we blossom, it'son the same path line. What we
haven't realized before now iswe tell each other our stories
and our stories are unique tous. So we find intrigue and
drama in them.
But the truth is we're tellingthem on the same plot line. And
(36:09):
once we understand that it givesus so much insight.
Davina (36:13):
Right. Well, and also makes us feel not so alone. You
realize that this isn't me beinga big loser. It's just like,
this is part of it. The contrastin life as well as the things
that you want or desire orwhatever.
(36:35):
There's another piece there,right? And that piece is meant
to help you evolve. Like yourwhole purpose in life is to
evolve and grow from what youexperience.
Joan (36:48):
Tell us. Want you to get the wheels on your cart so that
when that big bump does come inthe road, you have created
stability that helps you getthrough it as easily as
possible.
Davina (37:00):
So tell us some of the things that you did to get your
wheels back on the cart. I thinkthat's gonna be a natural
question for people is like,well, what do I do when one of
these wheels falls off of mycart? So tell us some of things
you did and maybe some examplesof, other people you've worked
with that have experience andwheels that fell off their carts
(37:22):
and sort of how did theyovercome that and get them back
on? What do we do?
Joan (37:26):
Well, first go to heroinesbook.com and get the
book. That's free plus shippingon that site. Right now it's my
gift and we just want to getthis concept out so that women
can start to think about theirown journeys in just the fashion
you're talking about. That's mywish, my hope, my mission, my
(37:50):
purpose.
Davina (37:51):
Right.
Joan (37:51):
So that's the first part. Then one step at a time, the
journey in the right ordercauses you to think about what's
going on there. Okay, so let'stake self worth, which is really
where we start, because that's aroot of it all. You know, if you
don't claim your self worth, andnow I treasure myself worth, I
(38:12):
do not let anyone get in the wayof it. I monitor it and I, that
is the one thing I can control.
And with self worth, what I'msaying to myself about in my
head is also monitoring. So selfworth is the place to start. And
(38:34):
I really had to get a deep focuson who who am I? And that's when
I retorted with such vigor tosay, You don't know who I am.
Because people are out theretrying to make a construct of
who they think you are.
Right. And it may not be helpfulat all.
Davina (38:55):
And again, these may be people that are closest to you.
People that you know, who'vebeen in your life, they may be
family, they may be longtimefriends, they may be people you
knew you when, and think of youas the person you were when you
were 16 or as the person youwere when you were 20 or
(39:16):
whatever. And they don't knowyour who you are now.
Joan (39:20):
And You you get an inkling of not feeling happy. And when I
would say to my father, I'm justnot happy. He would retort to me
that I was attractive, welleducated, you know,
opportunities were coming myway. He was referring to all
those external things. Becausethat's the culture we grow up in
(39:43):
and we learn to value that.
But truly, I was saying, I'm nothappy, I was talking about
internally. I was talking abouthow I built the scaffolding
inside of me that could hold meup in difficult times, in times
of other people saying thingsabout me that they were making
(40:05):
up. You know, it it was thestrength as a woman. And that's
what I hope we'll come back to.When you look at women and I
totally encourage you in thebook to look at pick out the
heroines that you've known inlife.
And all some of them might beEleanor Roosevelt or Amelia
Earhart or you know even Oprah.What we've seen is in the
(40:31):
process of them building thestrength inside of them. And
there's nothing stronger than awoman who claims her self worth.
Davina (40:41):
Yeah. Oprah is a great example of that because Oprah
talks about being about the theabuse she suffered as a child,
about the racism she suffered,about the sexism and misogyny
she suffered, not getting paid.You know, like they're great.
There are examples all around usof, of women who've overcome and
(41:02):
gone above and beyond. But it'snot just success, like you say,
in that external way.
May be somebody that lives downthe street from you that you've
not, that just looking at whothey are as person and saying,
this is somebody I would like tobe that centered or that solid
(41:23):
in myself and who I am and whatI want and all of that.
Joan (41:29):
In fact, if you're just looking to the external, like I
was, because that's what Ilearned from my family.
Davina (41:36):
Right.
Joan (41:37):
And I got to the top of the ladder. But famously I say
but the ladder was in the wrongbuilding. Yeah. That was not
really the best use of my giftsand talents. You know, of whom I
would have proud been proud forme to become.
Davina (42:00):
But you probably, but again, this goes back to that
piece was part of your journeyand shaped who you ultimately
were. Right? Yeah. Because youcould see what I don't want, who
I don't want to be, what I don'twant, what I do. But you also
(42:20):
financially, that you had theeducation around that and the
knowledge around that.
And ultimately that helped youto become who you are today.
Joan (42:29):
I made a lot of money. Yeah. But that wasn't the
complete answer.
Davina (42:34):
Right.
Joan (42:35):
I was more than And what I when you asked me, what did I
do? One big thing I did is Istarted to tell myself that
everything is perfect. Even inthe midst of divorce and family
estate problems and you know mytherapist said at one time Joan
(42:59):
there are so many fires aroundyou we don't know which one to
put out first.
Davina (43:04):
You're like yay that's what I want to hear.
Joan (43:07):
I was just sure that I was going to go up like Joan of Arc
you know?
Davina (43:12):
Oh, wow.
Joan (43:13):
But I started to say to myself, I can't see the whole
picture. I don't really knowwhat's going on here. There's
greater wisdom than me. So I'mjust going to decide that it's
all perfect as it is. And thatwas a huge turning point for my
life.
Davina (43:30):
Yeah, that is huge. And that's got to be hard, like in
the to be looking around you,there's fires all around you.
You think you're going to go uplike Joan of Arc and say, well,
this is just perfect and notsarcastically.
Joan (43:43):
Exactly. This is
Davina (43:44):
just perfect.
Joan (43:45):
I turned my attention from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
from blaming others to thinkingthat I was a victim, You know to
doing the things not doing thethings that were going to move
me forward. And transitioned meto heroining up. Because in
heroing up I had to accept thelessons. I had to accept that
(44:09):
everything around me was burningdown and maybe that was a good
thing, which it was by the way.I had to accept that maybe I was
being called into a new pathbecause that was my real purpose
and the way I was to best servein my lifetime.
(44:30):
It called me to writing theheroine's journey book. And I'll
tell you a funny story. So earlyon in my 30s, went to a course
that a man named Bill taught.And as part of his course was on
self esteem. First of all, I'dnever even heard the word
before.
I had no idea what it
Davina (44:51):
was. Interesting.
Joan (44:53):
All I knew was that I was an investment banker working on
Wall Street, and that must meanI was cool.
Davina (45:02):
And that's the pinnacle
Joan (45:03):
for And what was I set up to a big fall? Oh, yeah. Oh,
yeah. So for our life, he gaveus each what he saw as our word.
And the word he gave me waswomen.
And I almost threw it back athim with explicative words that
(45:25):
I don't need to say here. What?I don't. I'm working on Wall
Street. I don't know any.
And I'm not sure I like any.
Davina (45:34):
Well, you're one of the people who said I'd rather hang
out with men than with women.
Joan (45:38):
Yeah, exactly. How can you do this? How can you say this
about me? I mean, it reallyinfuriated me. So fast forward,
I am running a securitiesbrokerage firm, and I take a
left hand turn and write a bookcalled The Girl Needs Cash.
My blooming was bigger than myinterpretation.
Davina (46:00):
I wonder why he said women to you. I think
Joan (46:06):
he was just very intuitive and he knew that I was going to
be a leader in that arena andthat what I was trying to do not
only was it making me miserableas I fought the highly laden
testosterone world to try to getmy achievement out of that. He
saw something greater in me.
Davina (46:26):
Right. Right.
Joan (46:28):
And that's why you have to decide that it's all perfect.
Davina (46:32):
Yeah, I've never heard anybody say that before. Like I,
For me, it's everything isalways working out for me. I
love that everything is alwaysworking out for me. And so if
whatever's going on, When I comeback to that place when it seems
like there are fires, I go,everything is always working out
(46:54):
for me, meaning that I, there issomething that is going on that
is working out for me and I justdon't know it yet. I don't see
it, but everything always doesbecause there's always some
benefit to the things that aregoing on.
Right. Even if at first blush,they don't look like benefits.
But I've never heard that and Ilove that. I love it. It's just
perfect as it is.
Because I think that is a it'sinteresting to use the word
(47:20):
perfect because perfect is whatso many women, high achieving
women are focused on isperfection. They want to be they
want to look perfect. They wantto have a perfect relationship.
They want to have that's thegoal. And then of course they're
(47:40):
told, well, nothing is perfect.
But your set, your expressionthat helps you is, yeah, it
absolutely is perfect. What isyour idea of perfect? What does
perfect mean? And so you'vechanged that and turned it on
its head in terms of what itmeans.
Joan (47:57):
And I say to myself, life works for me and not against me.
Davina (48:01):
Yeah.
Joan (48:02):
And in the midst of the fires, the crisis is the
challenges is that's wherecourage and strength of a
heroine shows up.
Davina (48:12):
Yeah.
Joan (48:14):
That's where you frame your mindset to support
yourself. You heroine up to thetask you commit. That a man up.
Davina (48:25):
That's what we're doing.
Joan (48:26):
You commit yourself fully. I'm going to live a life of joy,
prosperity and freedom. That'smy mission.
Davina (48:36):
I'm not externally, it doesn't look like everything is
lining up the way I envisionedinitially.
Joan (48:41):
Yes, I no longer have an external vision of that. I have
an internal vision of that. Youknow? That's where my own
happiness lies.
Davina (48:53):
Yeah. Well, I do think that that is a I think a joy and
happiness, all of that is a is achoice. Like, we have to there's
always a way of looking atthings that can be, seeing the
fires, you know, and not the notthe warmth or whatever. Right?
We're looking at the fire andthinking it's gonna be
(49:14):
destructive and burn and we'renot looking at the benefit of it
or this that side of it orwhatever.
And that is a real inside job.That's inside your brain, inside
your mind, your viewpoint, howyou look at things, and it
changes your daily experience.
Joan (49:28):
My therapist said to me, you're the strongest woman I've
ever met and when she said that,I was like, I don't think so.
I'm, I grew up in Illinois. I'ma corn fed girl. You know, I'm
not strong and you know, it tookme a while but she was right. I
(49:49):
was stronger than I thought, hadmore courage than I thought, and
could go forward.
Davina (49:55):
Right. Right. So tell us again where we can get the book.
Joan (50:02):
You can get it at heroinesbook.com. Heroinesbook
Com. Heroin with an S. It's afree plus shipping offer right
now, so I encourage it becauseit's not gonna last for long.
And you can can follow me onsocial media, Joan Perry.
I hope to know you, support you,encourage you, and lead you on a
(50:28):
path to heroing up. Thanks somuch for having me.
Davina (50:31):
Thanks. Thanks for being here, Joan. I really enjoyed our
conversation today.
Intro (50:36):
You're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
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