July 10, 2025 • 51 mins
In this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I chat with Liz Weber, a leadership advisor, strategic and succession planning consultant, keynote speaker, and author. Liz is the founder of Weber Business Services and a trusted advisor to boards, owners, and C-suite teams across the country. Her mission? To help leaders focus on the right things at the right time to get the right impact—and that includes law firm leaders.
Listen in as Liz and I explore:
- The biggest leadership gaps law firm owners face—and why many never see them coming.
- How to know when it's time to build a leadership team—and how to do it smartly.
- The biggest hiring mistakes attorneys make when trying to scale their firms.
- Why culture and clarity are essential ingredients to sustainable growth.
- What it really means to make the leap from lawyer to law firm leader—and how to step into that role with confidence.
LINKS TO LOVE:
Learn more about Liz and her work at www.WBSLLC.com or connect with her on LinkedIn at LizWeberCMC.
Few of us are born knowing how to lead—but as your law firm grows, leadership becomes non-negotiable. This mini-course is designed to help law firm owners begin to build a foundation of leadership in their business. Whether you’re building a team or struggling to get the best from the one you have, you’ll gain the skills, mindset, and practical tools to lead with authority, inspire performance, and scale with intention.
Don’t want to be a micromanager? Afraid you are too “hands off?” This mini-course will help you become a “just right” leader. As an added incentive, I’m offering a limited time incentive for Wealthy Woman Lawyer listeners only. Click here to get started.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:43):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
here's Devina.
Davina (00:50):
Hello, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer
podcast. I'm your host, attorneyDevina Frederick, and my guest
today is Liz Weber. Liz is thefounder of Weber Business
Services, a company thatpromises to make leadership
easy. She serves as a leadershipadviser to professional service
companies, boards, owners, and Csuite teams. Plus, she's a
strategic and successionplanning consultant, keynote
(01:12):
speaker, and author.
Liz helps her clients focus onthe right things at the right
time to get the right impact,resulting in enhanced
performance, profits, andworkplace cultures. Please enjoy
our conversation. Hi, Liz. It'sgood to see you. Well, it's
great
Liz (01:27):
to see you, Davina. I'm happy
Davina (01:28):
to be with you. Good. I'm so glad you're here. I have
introduced you, but if you couldtell us a little bit about your
background and how you got intoleadership consulting. What what
led you to this?
Liz (01:43):
I will give you as abbreviated a version as I
possibly can. So what what firsteven gave me the idea, there was
a thing such as leadershipconsulting or coaching, was in
my capstone course in myundergrad. University of
Wisconsin, I was getting myundergrad in international
business because for some weirdreason, I thought I wanted to be
(02:04):
a commodities broker. Where Igot that idea, I don't know, but
that was my that was my train ofthought. I just knew I wanted to
get out of a small farming townin Wisconsin, and I thought that
was gonna be my my outlet.
And my capstone was taught bythis guy, and he was this thing
called a management consultant,and I had never heard that
(02:24):
before. But what he did and heexplained is he would show the
examples in our textbook, and hewould say, well, this is what
the theory says. But I'll tellyou, this is how we really
handle with a client of mine.And and I just love the
practical application, and Ilove the idea that here was this
man that could kind of be like ahoneybee, and he could he could
(02:47):
go from company to company tocompany and have an outsider's
view of here's what I see.Here's what you've told me, and
here are some suggestions Iwould offer you based upon my
experience with other companiesand just from an outsider's
perspective, how you might wannado things differently to be more
effective.
(03:08):
And I just thought that soundslike a phenomenal career. So
flash forward, I because I'mfrom small town Wisconsin, had
no international experience. Icouldn't get a job in
international business with mydegree. So I took an internship
in Washington DC, and luckily, Iwas with the state department
and basically the statedepartment's version of the
military commissary system. Soit was a business office.
(03:32):
So, again, as fortune would haveit, I was put into a position
when I was very young and veryinexperienced to travel around
American commissaries andconsulates around the world and
teach non business minded peoplewho were stationed at the
embassy or who lived on theembassy compound how to import
(03:52):
food, how to import beverages,how to provide activity outside
of work on the embassy compound.So by default, I became a
consultant with no experienceand no training to to help these
individuals. But luckily, I alsogot my graduate degree, but I
was also working with outsideconsultants to our office, law
(04:15):
firms and managementconsultants. And I learned
through them how how importantthe consultant can be by having
that outside perspective. Soafter ten years of doing that,
it was a great opportunity,great experience.
I decided to start my owncompany, and I initially started
it as a training companybecause, unrightly so, the
(04:36):
consultants that I had talkedwith said, Liz, you're smart,
but you you don't have enoughexperience yet to really advise
other people how to run theirbusiness and how to be leaders.
He said, you know, get yourcompany going. Take some knocks
yourself. You've already been aleader within the State
Department, but but balance itout so you've got a little bit
(04:57):
more credibility behind yourname and behind what you say.
And so I started a trainingcompany.
And about eight to ten yearsinto my training company, I
noticed my clients start pullingin started to pull me into
projects and into strategicplanning and into coaching
conversations and into well,actually, early in my training
(05:19):
into comprehensive trainingcurriculum instead of the one
off training program, the oneoff seminar here and there,
really looking at what does thisleader or what does this team of
leaders need sequentially todevelop their leadership skills
given where they areindividually, where they are
(05:41):
collectively, and where they areas a company and where they
wanna go. And so that really ishow I started my overall
training business to go deepwithin the organizations.
Because one of the things that Ido differently than other
training companies at the timealso was I would train on all
(06:02):
the topics, and I would bring invery rarely other trainers to
supplement or to take a wholeseries themselves. But unlike
many other training programsthat might have a trainer for
this topic and a trainer forthat topic and a trainer for
this top kind of, I say,hodgepodge it, I had the ability
(06:23):
to really go deep with myclients and also say, that's a
really great question.
So do you remember when wetalked about this back in March?
And in March, we were talkingabout holding team members
accountable because it's theright thing to do for them to
make them aware they're startingto veer off track. And this is
(06:43):
one of those opportunities wherethat skill set comes into play.
Because I had taught that class,I had had the conversations with
you and your team back in March,I could bridge those
connections, and we could gain alot of traction a lot quicker.
So long answer to your question,but it was it was kind of a
progressive but also anintentional journey.
Davina (07:05):
That's great. And and I'm glad that you shared the
part about your admitor, youradviser saying to you, this is
the this is the gap. This is thehole. Go fill that with
experience before you can go andand give advice. And I think
that's really critical when itcomes to, offering coaching or
(07:25):
consulting to any sort ofbusiness is that you really need
to have been in that those shoesyourself to see what it's like
to own a business because evenuntil you've really experienced
it, you don't really know.
You know from a theoreticalstandpoint or from an ed you
know, from an educatedstandpoint. Right? But it's very
different from working in a acorporate environment or
government environment orwhatever. So I'm so glad that
(07:47):
you shared that story because Iknow a lot a lot of people love
to hear it. So when you you haveworked, you've worked in many
industries with, companies inmany different industries, but
you I've also worked with lawfirms.
So tell me what do you think isunique about leadership in law
firms? What what sets themapart?
Liz (08:11):
I know you looked at my profile. I know you looked at my
biography, and I tend to becandid. So I'm gonna be candid
with you. I'm gonna be candidwith your listeners. What I have
found in my work with law firmsand leaders within law firms is
there is no doubt they areincredibly intelligent
(08:33):
individuals regardless of theirspecialty, employment law,
family law, whatever it is,estate law.
One of the challenges that manyprofessionals and law firms
have, which in all all fairnessis no different than some other
industries that has reallystrong technical expertise, tech
(08:58):
technical skills, is though theymay have strong expertise in
their specialty area, they don'thave either the experience of
leading others and building ateam. They've been self driven.
They got themselves through lawschool. They achieved everything
on their own. And suddenly nowthey're supposed to trust others
(09:22):
to help them be as good asthey've always been.
Number one, that's scary. Andnumber two, if they don't
innately have those skills, it'snot easy to understand what to
delegate and how to let go ofother things to enable other
people to do the jobs you'repaying them to do. And so my
(09:44):
from my experience, I've comeacross two common problems.
Number one, not delegatingappropriately and not delegating
clearly, or the opposite end ofit, dumping and assuming that
team members can somehow figureout by osmosis exactly what you
(10:06):
need them to do to help youbuild your case, to help you
build your documentation, andjust do everything innately
correct without you being clearon what you expect of them.
Davina (10:18):
Right. Right. I think so this is a this is I'm I'm
smiling because this is a commonissue, with with we lawyers.
First of all, we think we'resmarter than the average bear.
So we kind of think if we justhad enough time, we could do we
could figure out everythingourselves.
But then we come up to a pointin our career where we realize
there will never be enough time.We really have to get some help.
(10:40):
And a lot of them are not afraidof sort of hiring staff, low
lower level staff, staff to do atask or or, you know, particular
things like answer our phones orparalegals who are trained to be
paralegals. But when we startgetting into hiring support to
help us lead and grow, thatreally gets to be tricky because
(11:01):
we have control issues asattorneys oftentimes. And, also,
we have this real seesaw effectgoing on like you mentioned.
There's this people are soafraid of being micromanagers
that they become too hands off.So the pendulum is swinging too
(11:21):
far in one direction or another.And I see this happen a lot
where they they say, I justwanna hire somebody I can
delegate to, and they can takeit and run with it. And we
forget, well, you know, I've gottwo decades of experience in
this field. They don't you know,they're or they haven't worked
in my firm with me and my team.
So the that there's that handsoff approach of I just wanna
(11:43):
turn it over so I could take itoff my plate because I'm so
busy. Right. And that usuallyhappens as an effect of people
saying, I don't wanna bemicromanagers. And they don't
understand that you have tomanage, and manage isn't the
same thing as micromanaging.Right?
Liz (11:59):
Mhmm.
Davina (12:00):
And, of course, management and leadership are
are two different thingsaltogether anyway. But, what is
it that give me an idea at whatpoint first of all, give me an
idea of the difference betweenhiring people we could delegate
to staff and and and whatnot,those paralegals and those
(12:20):
staff, and hiring a leadershipteam. What does a leadership
role look like in a law firmthat you wanna maybe hire
somebody or elevate somebody whoworks for you? What would be,
like, the first leadership rolethat you can imagine?
Liz (12:39):
That's a that's a big question given everything you
just said. I'm gonna answer itin two different ways. So I'm
gonna answer it first as if youhad said, if you were planning
on scaling your practice or yourfirm, what would be one of your
first hires and why? And I wouldanswer that with, I would
(13:02):
recommend you hire a businessmanager, office manager slash
talent director. Meaning,someone who is really good and
really strong and helping youidentify what are the skill
sets, what are the attributes,who else do you need on this
(13:24):
team to help you take thisbusiness to the next level that
you wanna go and then the nextlevel you wanna go.
And I say that because mostoften, the first hire is like
the CFO or something like that.And and that's fine. You need
somebody to help with the books,but you can get an outside
accounting firm to help withthat in the interim. When you're
(13:47):
looking to scale, I want you toscale wisely, and that means
make good hires. And a personwho has an understanding of
talent can help you figure outwhat should the org chart look
like given the type of practiceor given the type of firm I want
to create and that I'm trying toscale to.
(14:08):
Am I am I a solo for focus? Am Imultifocus? You know, do I plan
on having a whole cadre of ofpartners? Do I simply wanna be
myself but an entire team? What,you know, what else what do I
want my future to look like?
That first hire will help youcreate that org chart. Now I'm
(14:29):
gonna answer the question in adifferent way. It should the way
that that when you first startstarted asking it is one of the
challenges that I see withinitial hires and initial
delegating, whether it's with,you know, support staff, whether
it's your law clerks, whetherit's with with potential, you
(14:52):
know, potential team members,higher leadership team members,
is getting clear on what youexpect of them. And from my
perspective, it's it's nodifferent than being very clear
in what you expect of the legalproject in front of you. Are you
(15:12):
are you creating a trustdocument?
Are you practicing are you arepreparing for court because you
got a divorce case you're takingto court? Are you are you
looking at some contract thatyou have to prepare for a merger
and acquisition? You know, whatis what is the project ahead of
you, and what is the expectationfor that to be a successful end
(15:35):
product? When you talk to yourteam about that, you're very
clear. This is what we need toinclude.
This is what we need to makesure we cover. This is what I
need you to research. From myperspective, it's no different
than when you're looking at yourteam members. As my
receptionist, I need you to beable to deliver this. As as my
(15:57):
office manager, I need you to beable to do this for me.
I need you to be able to handlethat for me or for others in the
office and get very clear onwhat the outcome, what the
deliverables, what you need ofthem should look like. And that
starts suddenly making theirlife a lot easier. You don't
(16:18):
need to micromanage, and youstart better shaping the scope
of their role with more clarityas to what you need from them
immediately so they don't haveto guess and interpret.
Davina (16:30):
Right. Right. At what point so I have an opinion about
this, and I wanna hear youropinion about it. At what point
in the growth journey do westart focusing on cultivating
that leadership team? So I'm nottalking about hiring support
(16:50):
staff.
I'm talking about hiring thoseleaders that will help us grow
the firm. At what point, can bea certain number of people
working for us, be revenue, canbe whatever whatever however you
would define that. What's yourwhat's your thought on that?
Liz (17:08):
So one of the things that I I do regularly with my clients,
and it's it's quite often, it'sone of my initial entry points
with a client is strategicplanning. So I'll facilitate
their strategic planningprojects. And I'm gonna loop
back to what I was just alludingto. Once you are clear yourself
(17:29):
into how do I wanna scale thisbusiness, how in the next five
years, visualize in your mind'seye, vision is a picture. So in
your mind's eye, in five years,what would you like your
practice to look like?
Physically, describe it. Is itis it completely virtual? Is it
(17:50):
in person? Is it whatever? Howmany people?
What types of projects? Whattypes of clients are you working
with? What volume of clients areyou working with? Get that image
clear. And it sounds simple todo, but the work that you do
with your clients, that is noteasy.
That that takes some thought,and that takes some real
(18:12):
consideration because you mightsay, I wanna have a team of 20
people. Lovely. You and I knowhaving 20 people is a lot of
work. And and you're smallenough yet that you just can't
be hands off. You're stillpretty much hands on at 20
people.
That's a lot. So you gotta yougotta ask yourself, do I want
(18:32):
that type of lifestyle, or do Iwanna work that hard? So to
answer your question is onceyou're clear on what you want
your business to look like infive years, start start
visualizing for it to be likethat. Given what I wanna be
doing with my company as theprimary partner or as the owner
(18:54):
of the business, what do I wannabe doing, and what should I be
doing given my skill sets and myattributes? And I say that
because if you're terriblyintroverted, business
development isn't gonna be yourstrong suit.
You may be better stepping backand really focusing on some of
the meaty cases andintentionally identifying
(19:17):
somebody to be your more focaloutreach person. That's great.
Get comfortable with it and thendo that. As you look at your
potential organizationalstructure, it may be if you
focus on what do you wanna bedoing and what types of clients
do you wanna be doing, you maylogically need additional talent
(19:38):
that supports with complementaryskills what you need to go
deeper with your cases or takeon bigger cases or whatever it
might be. So to answer yourquestion, I'm not trying to
dance around it, but it it'sit's determinant upon what you
want your business to become andhow you need to sequentially
build the foundation tocomplement what you wanna be
(20:01):
doing with your business thatwill still enable you to grow
the business to the level youwant it to grow.
So that may be an officemanager. That might be the
business development person.That might be some some junior
lawyers to supplement whatyou're doing in addition to a
law clerk or two. It it dependsupon what company, what type of
(20:22):
business you wanna grow.
Davina (20:25):
So the reason I asked that question in particular is
I'm and I'm defining it ashiring, maybe a c suite, hiring
people from a leadership team.And I wanna discuss what a
leadership team looks like. AndI think that's a very different
thing than hiring lawyers orhiring staff or hiring. And
there is a clear point. I thinksome people, get confused about
(20:50):
that because they hear peopletalking about hiring leadership
team, and they are not thereyet.
And I really think there's arevenue driver to that too. They
go, well, how can I afford tohire a a this or that or
whatever? And oftentimes, theyhear they hear me interview
somebody who is a fractional,you know, person or whatever,
(21:14):
and then they'll come to me,should I hire this person? And
my answer usually is where wherepeople are if they're in that
high six figures. Obviously, lowsix figures, no, but high six
figures over a billion dollars,oftentimes, I don't think
there's a need for that level ofleadership team yet.
So that's why I was specificallyasking that question because I
(21:34):
think people get confused aboutit. If you're into the low
millions and now we wanna getinto mid millions in revenue,
high millions in revenue, thisis where we start looking for
these type of people as opposedto, you know, I'm I'm a lawyer
who's trying to get over themillion dollar mark or I'm in 1
or $2,000,000. Do you need afractional CFOs, fractional CMO,
(21:57):
fractional whatever to run tocreate a a profitable,
sustainable, wealth generatinglaw firm. No. You don't.
Oftentimes, that's gonna justadd to your burden, your
financial burden without becauseyou're just not there yet. So
these things sort of come ininto a certain order, in my
(22:18):
opinion. That's my opinion.That's why I asked you the
question to get your take onwhat you thought about it. What
do you think about that?
Liz (22:23):
I completely agree. I I I don't think I don't think you
have the cash flow and therevenue flow under a million
dollars with a law firm practiceto to to build what most people
consider to be a leadershipteam. I I would advise, like
you, build out your technicallegal team to give you the
(22:47):
foundation and leverage to startscaling because you need you
need a volume of revenue comingin on a consistent basis to not
only pay your salary and and andtheirs comfortably, but then
you're also then positioned tothen start adding, I'm just
gonna say, the administrativeleadership team, you know, your
(23:08):
business development, yourmarketing person, your HR
ultimately down the line, yourCFO, those types of positions.
But I would encourage you toyou've gotta have the revenue
coming in first. And, you know,again, I don't know your
customer base, but but quiteoften, you can have solo
entrepreneurs that are kickingout close to a million dollars
(23:30):
on their own.
Granted, by then, if they're aservices industry, they start
tapping out because that's aboutall they they can personally
generate. So, you know, to getabove that and to start hiring
administrative staff, again, itgoes back to what type of
lifestyle do you want as theowner of the business? How much
(23:51):
do you believe to have thequality of life you want should
you be able to bill out on aregular basis? And then how much
do you believe your your otherbillable partners and staff
should be billing out to get youto the volume of cash flow that
you need to then start carryingmore overhead type positions.
(24:13):
Yeah.
Davina (24:15):
One of the recommendations I make is for
people to start withaspirational org chart just for
their first goal. Like, who isthe team that's gonna get me to
x? Whatever that goal is.Whether you're trying to make
your first 500,000 or, you know,million or 2,000,000 or
3,000,000 or whatever it is.Who's what's who's gonna be the
(24:35):
team?
So let's talk about the teambecause I think people will be
you mentioned it briefly justkind of throwing out some
different positions, but let'stalk about a leadership team and
the kind of order of that. Iknow it depends on whether they
whether the law firm owner stillwants to be involved in the
legal aspect or they just wantto run the business or whether
they want to just put aleadership team in place and
(24:57):
they're out or they're doinglegal work or whatever it is.
But generally speaking, what aresome positions that you would
define as members of aleadership team?
Liz (25:13):
I would I would look at your business manager, office
manager, business manager as aas a position to run the the
operations of your law business.So and and from from a
responsibility perspective, thatis a position that is quite
(25:36):
often managing youradministrative staff. They are
coordinating with, you know,vendors and things like that.
They are initially handling theaccounting, and it they might
have some of it outsourced. Theymight be handling it themselves.
They're kinda handling theoperations of your business. As
(25:57):
the as the business grows, theneither under that umbrella
position or that including inthat umbrella position, the the
position that I like to see, Imentioned it before, is your
business development personbecause that position is gonna
be your revenue driver. They'rethey're the position and it
(26:19):
doesn't need to be full time.This this can be part time
person initially or part time,you know, virtual even. But
they're they're gonna help youidentify and target customers,
but also potentially bring someinto you and get you exposure
into you know, if you're a locallocal marketplace, local
chamber, local communities,local banks, local CPA firms,
(26:42):
whatever, your network, they'regonna help you get your name out
and get your specialty out sopeople know why they should come
to you versus why they should goto ABC Law Firm down the road.
And and that thatdifferentiation also is really
important because that's whatalso sets you up for you to be
(27:06):
able to market yourself clearergoing forward, but also to re be
able to recruit smarter goingforward because they're gonna be
amplifying the messaging of thetype of firm you want to be,
maybe not necessarily the firmyou are right now. So that I
think That would be my numbertwo hire.
Davina (27:26):
Your number let's talk about your number two hire
because I wanna make sure thatwe're clear on you've used the
term business developer. And Ithink that to a lot of law firm
owners who haven't had anymanagement or background working
for other law firms and no suchthing exist, there's also
there's often a lot of confusionamong lawyers about marketing,
(27:47):
my marketing coordinator, mymarketing manager, business
developer, rainmaker, all ofthese terms sort of lumped
together, and they're verydistinct and different Mhmm.
Jobs. So if you are a smallerfirm, you may start out with a
marketing coordinator, justsomebody to coordinate with all
your vendors doing all of yourmarketing and then elevate to a
(28:09):
marketing director or something.But a business developer is
somebody who is tasked withbringing you business, bringing
you work much in the same waythat you think of lawyer
rainmakers.
So that is a very differentthing. They're not the ones who
are gonna be sitting theremaking your brochures,
communicating with your socialmedia company, that kind of
(28:31):
thing. They're gonna be peoplewho are actively out there
creating relationships for youand the law firm. Is that how
you define that? That's been myunderstanding from my experience
working in a law firm as inmarketing.
Liz (28:43):
Yeah. The way you just described it, that is the black
and white differentiation. Forsmaller firms, it can be one and
the same. But to your point,they're very different skill
sets.
Davina (28:57):
Very different. Yeah.
Liz (28:59):
Because marketing is just the messaging going out. You
know? What what do you have onsocial media? What do you have
in any other advertising? Whatdo you have on your your, you
know, your your, excuse me, yourstationary, your business cards,
whatever?
What does it look like? In orderto know what to message, you
need to know what you want to beknown for in the marketplace,
(29:23):
what types of clients you wantto serve. That's important for
messaging, but also for bringingin business. And most smaller
firms don't have the cash flowto have real strong messaging
and a separate social media teamand all that type of stuff and a
(29:45):
business development person.It's quite often one and the
same, which is a challengebecause, stereotypically,
individuals in that role arestronger on one side of it or
the other.
Right. And my recommendation isI would lean more strongly on
the business development sidebecause the marketing side, if
(30:09):
you basically can can projectyour name, your practice, your
specialty area, your phonenumber, your website, here's
here's how you help yourclients, That can hold you for a
while. You need the cash flow.You need the client portfolio to
grow to really start yourpractice to to grow.
Davina (30:30):
Right. Right. And I think there's so many vendors
out there, services that areable to provide a lot of what we
need in terms of marketing andadvertising and that kind of
thing that helps us sort ofstart growing those
Liz (30:43):
Right.
Davina (30:43):
Growing those leads. So talk to me about the first step.
You you mentioned the step ofsort of getting an idea of what
your vision is for your firm.And it's it's really interesting
for me because a lot of thepeople that I work with, they
don't have a strong vision. Theystart out just they open, they
(31:06):
hang their shingle, they startworking.
They're high achieving women andthey just start working and then
they get to a certain point andthey have some idea of what they
don't want and maybe not a greatidea. I think a lot of them feel
intimidated by you mentioned 20people in your firm, and I'm
inside, I'm chuckling becausethe there's so many women law
(31:26):
firm owners I talk to that thatwould be huge to them. Yeah.
They say to me, I don't want 20people working for me. And in
the context of working withlarger law firms, that's small.
Right? But for solos who arebootstrapping and growing their
business,
Liz (31:40):
that they go, oh, I
Davina (31:41):
don't want 20 people working for me. I just want you
know but tell me next steps sortof of what do they need to take?
What are the next steps thatthey need to take in terms of a
a leadership team? Should they,for instance, get more training
and leadership for themselves toreally understand what it is so
(32:03):
they can get clarity on whatthey want? Or should they, just
take a figure out which personand make a leap and hire that
person and try to figure it out.
What should they do?
Liz (32:17):
I'm gonna go back to what you just said, you know, in your
work with your with yourclients. I don't want 20 people.
And my question to them is,that's great. That's fine. You
know you don't want that.
So so what do you want? Is doyou want a team of just you and
(32:38):
two other people, maybe two, youknow, support staff, clerical
staff, and maybe one other legalperson, or would you be
comfortable with maybe threeattorneys in your practice? What
does that look like? And iflet's say that you you're
visualizing your your businessand you've got three practicing
attorneys, then then who are youthe lead? Are you the owner?
(33:01):
And or are you gonna bepartners? Because that's that
dynamic in law firms, thepartnership dynamic in and of
itself is different than a soloentrepreneur or, you know, a
solo practice. And so you needto get clear on what what do I
want there. And let's assumethat he's like, well, I don't
(33:23):
really don't want partners. I Iwant it to be my firm.
Well, then that's great. So thenwhat attributes do you do you
need in your practice, in yourbusiness, to allow you to serve
the types of customers you wannaserve at the scale you want to
serve them to cover where youcan't do it or don't wanna do it
(33:47):
on your own? So is that sometangent legal expertise? Is that
potentially not technically alegal expertise, but is it some
other support service or tangentservice that might be helpful?
And and from a leadershipperspective, is that is that
(34:10):
maybe somebody that has I I'mjust gonna completely make
something up here.
I don't know. You know, anexpertise in, I don't know,
financial management. I don'tknow. It depends upon, again,
what type of practice, what typeof business you want to create,
(34:32):
the types of customers you wannaserve, what do they need? And
that helps drive the type ofteam you need to build.
And I'll if if you don't mind,I'll share something with you
that I share with my clientswhen it comes to clarifying the
types of clients that you want,and it's called a client
portfolio analysis. So ask yourclients to to think about the
(34:59):
the clients they've served inthe last three years. Create a
spreadsheet. List them all. Andthen in front of them, you're
gonna rank order one, two,three, or four.
You're gonna put a four in frontof those that between you and I
and your listeners, you don'tever wanna work with them again
because you lost money, and theywere a nightmare to work with.
(35:23):
Because they have no loyalty toyou, you are just a commodity
that they needed you to helpthem get out of a bind. Put a
three in front of all thoseclients that you broke even. You
maybe made a little bit of moneywith it, but, man, they were a
nightmare to work with.
Davina (35:41):
Mhmm.
Liz (35:42):
That's a three. Put a two in front of any client that it
was like bread and butter. Thisthis is like your perfect
client. They're easy. Theybrought you an issue.
You go, okay. Yes. I can handleit. We'll take care of it. And
and you you do the work.
They pay their bills. They loveyou. You love them. But then you
(36:04):
go through your list and you puta one in front of any of the
clients that you provided yourcore services to. But they also
came back to you and they said,can you also do x for me?
X is it's part of your area ofexpertise, but it's a slightly
(36:28):
elevated version of thatservice. And when you think
about this client, you're like,I wanna do more of that. That's
gonna really help my business,or that's just fascinating to
me. I wanna go deeper in thisarea. They help you expand your
portfolio of services or yourexpertise.
(36:50):
They're your tier ones. And sowhen you do this client
analysis, what it starts to popup is quite often, most of us
who start are starting out ourbusinesses, where do you think
we spend most of our time? We'respending time on our twos and
threes and fours, and that's whyour margins are so small and
(37:13):
we're so exhausted. Mhmm. Butwhen we get clear on who we
wanna serve and we startmarketing to our twos and our
ones, our margins start gettingbigger.
We start enjoying the work thatwe do more. We start enjoying
our clients more, and we havemuch more profitable businesses
because we're much more laserfocused on the right types of
(37:35):
clients for my business and thatare unright for them. And it can
completely start changing yourbusiness. So when you do that
activity, you now have biggermargin, which means bigger
profit percentage, that you canthen hire your business
development manager, marketingperson, more office staff,
(37:57):
additional legal support staff,additional legal staff,
additional experts to take youdeeper, take you wider, wherever
you wanna go.
Davina (38:06):
Shifting gears a little bit, I wanna talk about, how we
what characteristics we shouldbe looking for in leadership
team. So we can look at firmadministrator or the business
developer because these are thetwo that you sort of talked
about, either that COO or firmadministrator, business and
(38:28):
manager, or that businessdeveloper because they're
they're different. Mhmm. Butwhat are the key characteristics
you would look for in the hiringprocess? And what are there any
tools that you use to helppeople figure out if people are
a good fit for those positions?
Liz (38:52):
So figuring out if a person is a good fit, I'm a firm
believer in behavioralinterviewing. So really asking
questions about their theircurrent and previous experience
with specific examples of tellme about a time when you helped
someone with X, Y, Z. That thatjust works so well. It you you
can't beat it. The otherpositions like COO, CFO, chief
(39:16):
operating officer, chieffinancial officer, chief
marketing officer, whatever itis, again, is what is the
technical expertise you needthem to bring to your business
that, a, either you don't haveor, b, you don't have time for
because you make more moneydoing things that are in your
(39:40):
sweet spot.
So for instance, first off, soyou and your you know, so your
listeners are clear. A chieffinancial officer is different
than an accountant. So anaccounting person is going to
keep track of your accounts.They're gonna tell you what
bills to pay. They're gonna tellyou what money is owed.
(40:00):
They're gonna tell you whohasn't paid an invoice. All very
important. But a chief financialofficer is going to tell you
where you could invest or howyou could use your money
differently to make more moneyor to enable you to buy the
office building down the streetor build the extension onto your
(40:22):
current office or project howyou're going to be able to add
the three new team members andleadership that you wanna add
over the next eighteen months?What salaries could you pay
them? When you should bring themin given the intended cash cash
flow of the cases you'recurrently working?
(40:43):
That's what a that's what afinancial person is going to do
for you. So, again, it goes backto what are you looking to do
with your business, and whatskill sets do you need to
complement what you don'talready have yourself that you
need to get you and yourbusiness to where you want it to
be.
Davina (41:04):
Do you think personality and personality characteristics
matter when we're hiring?Because there are a lot of
people who have skill sets thatmight not be a good fit. Sort of
how do you so are there certainthings that you recommend for,
to help law firm owners whohaven't hired at that level
before what they should belooking for beyond just skills
(41:26):
or expertise?
Liz (41:28):
So bottom line answer, oh my gosh. Yes. Personality
matters. Oh my gosh. Yes.
Because we've all experiencedindividuals who are technically
magnificent but are a nightmareto work with. So absolutely
personality matters. What Irecommend when you are looking
(41:51):
to bring somebody on your team,particularly in a key position,
a a trick that I learned from aclient of mine many, many years
ago is, obviously, you wanna doin person interviews if at all
possible, unless you can only dovirtual. But if you are the the
(42:12):
firm owner, you have other teammembers interview them first. I
know.
That's great advice. You haveYou have one you know, you may
have let's say you're looking tohire your a new you're gonna
hire a a financial person tohelp you start advising you on
(42:33):
how to build a new officebuilding or add on to your
current office building. I wouldencourage you to have your,
like, business developmentperson interview them first. Now
the prospective CFO may not likethat because they don't wanna
talk to this person. They justwanna talk to you.
But what I have found in theclient I learned this from a
(42:54):
client, it's proven itself truein my experience too. Candidates
will say things to team membersthat they won't say to you.
They'll ask questions of teammembers they won't ask of you.
And so when you and your teammembers who have also
interviewed them can debriefafterwards, you get a much
better picture of who thisperson is. And so I I encourage
(43:20):
your listeners to consider thatas an option.
If if they can have somebodyelse pre interview, particularly
if the person is gonna work withthem as a colleague, absolutely
have peers be the first lineinterview. Because when you
know, if they're like, do nothire that person, and then I
hire them, they have every rightto be irritated with me if that
(43:43):
person turns out to be anightmare. So
Davina (43:47):
I think that's a great tip, and we see that a lot with
as people are moving away frombeing the main hirer because as
a law firm owner, we're firststarting out we're the main one
hiring and interviewing there'snobody else right then when we
get to a certain point even ifit's you're bringing in that
paralegal that's your right handperson or other people on the
(44:10):
team that are spending a littletime with this new hire,
whatever position they're goingto be in, to get a sense of who
they are as a person and getthat different perspective from
somebody who does somethingdifferent within your business
is a huge thing. And also goingback earlier, we've talked a lot
about being so clear on whatyour vision is for your firm. I
(44:32):
think a huge piece of that, andI'm sure you agree with me, is
culture. When you're thinkingabout what I want my firm to
look like, it's not just growthand size and the number of
attorneys and the number ofrevenue and all that. It's
culture for most of us becausewe start our own businesses
because we want to create aworkplace that we love to be a
part of, and we want otherpeople to love to be a part of
(44:54):
it.
And so I think thatunderstanding where somebody
fits in that culture is veryimportant in the interview
process too and really seeingyou can have the skills, but are
you gonna fit in here with us inthe way that we work and and how
we function as a as a team?Absolutely. Has seen that, with
(45:14):
some of your clients go throughthat experience?
Liz (45:18):
Oh, absolutely. And and I can tell you my work with
clients right now, culture iseverything. Culture is
everything. And, you know, whenwith your listeners, when they
are when they are, you know,building their own business, as
you just said, one of thereasons, because they want to
work in an environment they wantto work in. They may have horror
stories from corporate law firmor someplace else.
(45:42):
But again, it's what type ofbusiness do I wanna create? And
it's not just that physical, asyou said, but how do I want
people to feel and treat me,treat each other, and treat our
clients in a way that we can dothe best work possible together.
And it it's not gonna be thatwe're gonna be blowing up
(46:04):
balloons and blowing bubblesevery day. But how do I create
that environment where we likecoming to work every day? We
like working with each other.
We actually like each other. Wemay not be best friends, but we
actually like each other. But wealso are are able to provide
helpful, candid feedback to oneanother with the intent that
(46:28):
this is gonna help you getbetter and allow us to do better
work for our clients. Or you'regonna provide me feedback to
help me be better, not only asan attorney, but as a business
owner so that I can also dobetter by my clients and better
by you. And if and if you cancreate that kind of environment,
that's that's really special.
(46:50):
That's really special.
Davina (46:51):
Have you, what impact have you seen with remote law
firms? I have some clients thathave fully remote law firms.
They have large teams that arelocally remote or some are even
more far flung. And how do youthink that affects? What have
you seen with your clients interms of the effect that that
has on culture, whether that'slaw firms or other types of
(47:14):
businesses?
Liz (47:16):
I was just with a client, not a law firm, but I was with a
client yesterday, and they'repulling more of their people
back in the office. Just becausein most situations, even though
productivity has stayed high andhas oftentimes gotten higher,
What has happened is sharedknowledge has dropped.
(47:40):
Collaboration has dropped. Senseof community has dropped.
Teamwork has dropped.
Effective communication hasdropped. There are there are too
many inefficiencies that arecausing them to now kind of
sputter and not keep growing.And the solution looks to be we
(48:03):
need to pull, maybe noteverybody, but certain positions
for sure, certain teams thatmake sense, back into a physical
environment, not five days aweek, maybe two, maybe three.
And we need to get veryintentional that when they are
physically together, they aredoing things physically
(48:24):
together. We're not justbringing everybody together, and
they're sitting in cubes orprivate offices doing their work
individually.
That's pointless.
Davina (48:31):
Mhmm.
Liz (48:31):
So it's it's it's coming around to not just I'm gonna
pull people back because I don'tlike managing like this. It's
it's it's turning around becausethe inefficiencies in some
organizations are starting topeak out.
Davina (48:50):
Yeah, think it depends a lot on the organization. And
also, think there's a bringingin people and understanding
there are that we may need to dothings in a different way to
create that sense of communityeven though people are remote
and to create that sense ofcollaboration even though people
(49:11):
are remote. Finding I thinkthere's a systemic issue that
most times if we can look at oursystems, we can say, well, our
systems are set up this way ifthat's what's causing that that
problem. But I know a lot of,companies are doing that.
They're starting to change back.
And some of that, there's beensome interesting, articles
written about the differentgenerations wanting different
(49:35):
things, like the youngergenerations wanting more of the
office environment because theyhaven't had it. Whereas the
older generation, I'm a Gen X,have had plenty of office
environment, and we and we don'tneed, the discipline of other
people to do work or whatever.You know? Mhmm. So or we don't
want that camaraderie in thatway.
We wanna get work done. And
Liz (49:55):
Right.
Davina (49:55):
It's going to be very interesting to see how this
plays out. Further we get awayfrom COVID, how this continues
to play out, and how AI startsto figure into what happens in
businesses, including law firms.Yeah. Liz, it's been wonderful
talking with you today. Tell ushow we can connect with you and
learn more about you and whatyou do.
Liz (50:14):
Sure. I would I would suggest two main ways. Number
one, my website, which is mybusiness name, the abbreviation
wbsllc.com. That's wbsllc.com.Or my LinkedIn, profile is Liz
Weber CMC.
Davina (50:33):
Wonderful. Thank you. We'll include those in the show
notes for anybody looking forthat. Liz, I appreciate you
being here and having thisconversation with me. It's been
so fun.
Liz (50:40):
It has been. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Intro (50:43):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What
you could hang out withsuccessful women lawyers, ask
them about growing their firms,managing resources like time,
team, and systems, masteringmoney issues, and more? Then
take an insight or two to helpyou build a wealth generating
law firm. Each week, your host,Devina Frederick, takes an
(00:22):
in-depth look at how to thinklike a CEO, attract clients who
you love to serve and will payyou on time, and create a
profitable, sustainable firm youlove. Devina is founder and CEO
of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and hergoal is to give you the
information you need to scaleyour law firm business from 6 to
7 figures in gross annualrevenue so you can fully fund
(00:43):
and still have time to enjoy thelifestyle of your dreams. Now
here's Devina.
Davina (00:50):
Hello, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer
podcast. I'm your host, attorneyDevina Frederick, and my guest
today is Liz Weber. Liz is thefounder of Weber Business
Services, a company thatpromises to make leadership
easy. She serves as a leadershipadviser to professional service
companies, boards, owners, and Csuite teams. Plus, she's a
strategic and successionplanning consultant, keynote
(01:12):
speaker, and author.
Liz helps her clients focus onthe right things at the right
time to get the right impact,resulting in enhanced
performance, profits, andworkplace cultures. Please enjoy
our conversation. Hi, Liz. It'sgood to see you. Well, it's
great
Liz (01:27):
to see you, Davina. I'm happy
Davina (01:28):
to be with you. Good. I'm so glad you're here. I have
introduced you, but if you couldtell us a little bit about your
background and how you got intoleadership consulting. What what
led you to this?
Liz (01:43):
I will give you as abbreviated a version as I
possibly can. So what what firsteven gave me the idea, there was
a thing such as leadershipconsulting or coaching, was in
my capstone course in myundergrad. University of
Wisconsin, I was getting myundergrad in international
business because for some weirdreason, I thought I wanted to be
(02:04):
a commodities broker. Where Igot that idea, I don't know, but
that was my that was my train ofthought. I just knew I wanted to
get out of a small farming townin Wisconsin, and I thought that
was gonna be my my outlet.
And my capstone was taught bythis guy, and he was this thing
called a management consultant,and I had never heard that
(02:24):
before. But what he did and heexplained is he would show the
examples in our textbook, and hewould say, well, this is what
the theory says. But I'll tellyou, this is how we really
handle with a client of mine.And and I just love the
practical application, and Ilove the idea that here was this
man that could kind of be like ahoneybee, and he could he could
(02:47):
go from company to company tocompany and have an outsider's
view of here's what I see.Here's what you've told me, and
here are some suggestions Iwould offer you based upon my
experience with other companiesand just from an outsider's
perspective, how you might wannado things differently to be more
effective.
(03:08):
And I just thought that soundslike a phenomenal career. So
flash forward, I because I'mfrom small town Wisconsin, had
no international experience. Icouldn't get a job in
international business with mydegree. So I took an internship
in Washington DC, and luckily, Iwas with the state department
and basically the statedepartment's version of the
military commissary system. Soit was a business office.
(03:32):
So, again, as fortune would haveit, I was put into a position
when I was very young and veryinexperienced to travel around
American commissaries andconsulates around the world and
teach non business minded peoplewho were stationed at the
embassy or who lived on theembassy compound how to import
(03:52):
food, how to import beverages,how to provide activity outside
of work on the embassy compound.So by default, I became a
consultant with no experienceand no training to to help these
individuals. But luckily, I alsogot my graduate degree, but I
was also working with outsideconsultants to our office, law
(04:15):
firms and managementconsultants. And I learned
through them how how importantthe consultant can be by having
that outside perspective. Soafter ten years of doing that,
it was a great opportunity,great experience.
I decided to start my owncompany, and I initially started
it as a training companybecause, unrightly so, the
(04:36):
consultants that I had talkedwith said, Liz, you're smart,
but you you don't have enoughexperience yet to really advise
other people how to run theirbusiness and how to be leaders.
He said, you know, get yourcompany going. Take some knocks
yourself. You've already been aleader within the State
Department, but but balance itout so you've got a little bit
(04:57):
more credibility behind yourname and behind what you say.
And so I started a trainingcompany.
And about eight to ten yearsinto my training company, I
noticed my clients start pullingin started to pull me into
projects and into strategicplanning and into coaching
conversations and into well,actually, early in my training
(05:19):
into comprehensive trainingcurriculum instead of the one
off training program, the oneoff seminar here and there,
really looking at what does thisleader or what does this team of
leaders need sequentially todevelop their leadership skills
given where they areindividually, where they are
(05:41):
collectively, and where they areas a company and where they
wanna go. And so that really ishow I started my overall
training business to go deepwithin the organizations.
Because one of the things that Ido differently than other
training companies at the timealso was I would train on all
(06:02):
the topics, and I would bring invery rarely other trainers to
supplement or to take a wholeseries themselves. But unlike
many other training programsthat might have a trainer for
this topic and a trainer forthat topic and a trainer for
this top kind of, I say,hodgepodge it, I had the ability
(06:23):
to really go deep with myclients and also say, that's a
really great question.
So do you remember when wetalked about this back in March?
And in March, we were talkingabout holding team members
accountable because it's theright thing to do for them to
make them aware they're startingto veer off track. And this is
(06:43):
one of those opportunities wherethat skill set comes into play.
Because I had taught that class,I had had the conversations with
you and your team back in March,I could bridge those
connections, and we could gain alot of traction a lot quicker.
So long answer to your question,but it was it was kind of a
progressive but also anintentional journey.
Davina (07:05):
That's great. And and I'm glad that you shared the
part about your admitor, youradviser saying to you, this is
the this is the gap. This is thehole. Go fill that with
experience before you can go andand give advice. And I think
that's really critical when itcomes to, offering coaching or
(07:25):
consulting to any sort ofbusiness is that you really need
to have been in that those shoesyourself to see what it's like
to own a business because evenuntil you've really experienced
it, you don't really know.
You know from a theoreticalstandpoint or from an ed you
know, from an educatedstandpoint. Right? But it's very
different from working in a acorporate environment or
government environment orwhatever. So I'm so glad that
(07:47):
you shared that story because Iknow a lot a lot of people love
to hear it. So when you you haveworked, you've worked in many
industries with, companies inmany different industries, but
you I've also worked with lawfirms.
So tell me what do you think isunique about leadership in law
firms? What what sets themapart?
Liz (08:11):
I know you looked at my profile. I know you looked at my
biography, and I tend to becandid. So I'm gonna be candid
with you. I'm gonna be candidwith your listeners. What I have
found in my work with law firmsand leaders within law firms is
there is no doubt they areincredibly intelligent
(08:33):
individuals regardless of theirspecialty, employment law,
family law, whatever it is,estate law.
One of the challenges that manyprofessionals and law firms
have, which in all all fairnessis no different than some other
industries that has reallystrong technical expertise, tech
(08:58):
technical skills, is though theymay have strong expertise in
their specialty area, they don'thave either the experience of
leading others and building ateam. They've been self driven.
They got themselves through lawschool. They achieved everything
on their own. And suddenly nowthey're supposed to trust others
(09:22):
to help them be as good asthey've always been.
Number one, that's scary. Andnumber two, if they don't
innately have those skills, it'snot easy to understand what to
delegate and how to let go ofother things to enable other
people to do the jobs you'repaying them to do. And so my
(09:44):
from my experience, I've comeacross two common problems.
Number one, not delegatingappropriately and not delegating
clearly, or the opposite end ofit, dumping and assuming that
team members can somehow figureout by osmosis exactly what you
(10:06):
need them to do to help youbuild your case, to help you
build your documentation, andjust do everything innately
correct without you being clearon what you expect of them.
Davina (10:18):
Right. Right. I think so this is a this is I'm I'm
smiling because this is a commonissue, with with we lawyers.
First of all, we think we'resmarter than the average bear.
So we kind of think if we justhad enough time, we could do we
could figure out everythingourselves.
But then we come up to a pointin our career where we realize
there will never be enough time.We really have to get some help.
(10:40):
And a lot of them are not afraidof sort of hiring staff, low
lower level staff, staff to do atask or or, you know, particular
things like answer our phones orparalegals who are trained to be
paralegals. But when we startgetting into hiring support to
help us lead and grow, thatreally gets to be tricky because
(11:01):
we have control issues asattorneys oftentimes. And, also,
we have this real seesaw effectgoing on like you mentioned.
There's this people are soafraid of being micromanagers
that they become too hands off.So the pendulum is swinging too
(11:21):
far in one direction or another.And I see this happen a lot
where they they say, I justwanna hire somebody I can
delegate to, and they can takeit and run with it. And we
forget, well, you know, I've gottwo decades of experience in
this field. They don't you know,they're or they haven't worked
in my firm with me and my team.
So the that there's that handsoff approach of I just wanna
(11:43):
turn it over so I could take itoff my plate because I'm so
busy. Right. And that usuallyhappens as an effect of people
saying, I don't wanna bemicromanagers. And they don't
understand that you have tomanage, and manage isn't the
same thing as micromanaging.Right?
Liz (11:59):
Mhmm.
Davina (12:00):
And, of course, management and leadership are
are two different thingsaltogether anyway. But, what is
it that give me an idea at whatpoint first of all, give me an
idea of the difference betweenhiring people we could delegate
to staff and and and whatnot,those paralegals and those
(12:20):
staff, and hiring a leadershipteam. What does a leadership
role look like in a law firmthat you wanna maybe hire
somebody or elevate somebody whoworks for you? What would be,
like, the first leadership rolethat you can imagine?
Liz (12:39):
That's a that's a big question given everything you
just said. I'm gonna answer itin two different ways. So I'm
gonna answer it first as if youhad said, if you were planning
on scaling your practice or yourfirm, what would be one of your
first hires and why? And I wouldanswer that with, I would
(13:02):
recommend you hire a businessmanager, office manager slash
talent director. Meaning,someone who is really good and
really strong and helping youidentify what are the skill
sets, what are the attributes,who else do you need on this
(13:24):
team to help you take thisbusiness to the next level that
you wanna go and then the nextlevel you wanna go.
And I say that because mostoften, the first hire is like
the CFO or something like that.And and that's fine. You need
somebody to help with the books,but you can get an outside
accounting firm to help withthat in the interim. When you're
(13:47):
looking to scale, I want you toscale wisely, and that means
make good hires. And a personwho has an understanding of
talent can help you figure outwhat should the org chart look
like given the type of practiceor given the type of firm I want
to create and that I'm trying toscale to.
(14:08):
Am I am I a solo for focus? Am Imultifocus? You know, do I plan
on having a whole cadre of ofpartners? Do I simply wanna be
myself but an entire team? What,you know, what else what do I
want my future to look like?
That first hire will help youcreate that org chart. Now I'm
(14:29):
gonna answer the question in adifferent way. It should the way
that that when you first startstarted asking it is one of the
challenges that I see withinitial hires and initial
delegating, whether it's with,you know, support staff, whether
it's your law clerks, whetherit's with with potential, you
(14:52):
know, potential team members,higher leadership team members,
is getting clear on what youexpect of them. And from my
perspective, it's it's nodifferent than being very clear
in what you expect of the legalproject in front of you. Are you
(15:12):
are you creating a trustdocument?
Are you practicing are you arepreparing for court because you
got a divorce case you're takingto court? Are you are you
looking at some contract thatyou have to prepare for a merger
and acquisition? You know, whatis what is the project ahead of
you, and what is the expectationfor that to be a successful end
(15:35):
product? When you talk to yourteam about that, you're very
clear. This is what we need toinclude.
This is what we need to makesure we cover. This is what I
need you to research. From myperspective, it's no different
than when you're looking at yourteam members. As my
receptionist, I need you to beable to deliver this. As as my
(15:57):
office manager, I need you to beable to do this for me.
I need you to be able to handlethat for me or for others in the
office and get very clear onwhat the outcome, what the
deliverables, what you need ofthem should look like. And that
starts suddenly making theirlife a lot easier. You don't
(16:18):
need to micromanage, and youstart better shaping the scope
of their role with more clarityas to what you need from them
immediately so they don't haveto guess and interpret.
Davina (16:30):
Right. Right. At what point so I have an opinion about
this, and I wanna hear youropinion about it. At what point
in the growth journey do westart focusing on cultivating
that leadership team? So I'm nottalking about hiring support
(16:50):
staff.
I'm talking about hiring thoseleaders that will help us grow
the firm. At what point, can bea certain number of people
working for us, be revenue, canbe whatever whatever however you
would define that. What's yourwhat's your thought on that?
Liz (17:08):
So one of the things that I I do regularly with my clients,
and it's it's quite often, it'sone of my initial entry points
with a client is strategicplanning. So I'll facilitate
their strategic planningprojects. And I'm gonna loop
back to what I was just alludingto. Once you are clear yourself
(17:29):
into how do I wanna scale thisbusiness, how in the next five
years, visualize in your mind'seye, vision is a picture. So in
your mind's eye, in five years,what would you like your
practice to look like?
Physically, describe it. Is itis it completely virtual? Is it
(17:50):
in person? Is it whatever? Howmany people?
What types of projects? Whattypes of clients are you working
with? What volume of clients areyou working with? Get that image
clear. And it sounds simple todo, but the work that you do
with your clients, that is noteasy.
That that takes some thought,and that takes some real
(18:12):
consideration because you mightsay, I wanna have a team of 20
people. Lovely. You and I knowhaving 20 people is a lot of
work. And and you're smallenough yet that you just can't
be hands off. You're stillpretty much hands on at 20
people.
That's a lot. So you gotta yougotta ask yourself, do I want
(18:32):
that type of lifestyle, or do Iwanna work that hard? So to
answer your question is onceyou're clear on what you want
your business to look like infive years, start start
visualizing for it to be likethat. Given what I wanna be
doing with my company as theprimary partner or as the owner
(18:54):
of the business, what do I wannabe doing, and what should I be
doing given my skill sets and myattributes? And I say that
because if you're terriblyintroverted, business
development isn't gonna be yourstrong suit.
You may be better stepping backand really focusing on some of
the meaty cases andintentionally identifying
(19:17):
somebody to be your more focaloutreach person. That's great.
Get comfortable with it and thendo that. As you look at your
potential organizationalstructure, it may be if you
focus on what do you wanna bedoing and what types of clients
do you wanna be doing, you maylogically need additional talent
(19:38):
that supports with complementaryskills what you need to go
deeper with your cases or takeon bigger cases or whatever it
might be. So to answer yourquestion, I'm not trying to
dance around it, but it it'sit's determinant upon what you
want your business to become andhow you need to sequentially
build the foundation tocomplement what you wanna be
(20:01):
doing with your business thatwill still enable you to grow
the business to the level youwant it to grow.
So that may be an officemanager. That might be the
business development person.That might be some some junior
lawyers to supplement whatyou're doing in addition to a
law clerk or two. It it dependsupon what company, what type of
(20:22):
business you wanna grow.
Davina (20:25):
So the reason I asked that question in particular is
I'm and I'm defining it ashiring, maybe a c suite, hiring
people from a leadership team.And I wanna discuss what a
leadership team looks like. AndI think that's a very different
thing than hiring lawyers orhiring staff or hiring. And
there is a clear point. I thinksome people, get confused about
(20:50):
that because they hear peopletalking about hiring leadership
team, and they are not thereyet.
And I really think there's arevenue driver to that too. They
go, well, how can I afford tohire a a this or that or
whatever? And oftentimes, theyhear they hear me interview
somebody who is a fractional,you know, person or whatever,
(21:14):
and then they'll come to me,should I hire this person? And
my answer usually is where wherepeople are if they're in that
high six figures. Obviously, lowsix figures, no, but high six
figures over a billion dollars,oftentimes, I don't think
there's a need for that level ofleadership team yet.
So that's why I was specificallyasking that question because I
(21:34):
think people get confused aboutit. If you're into the low
millions and now we wanna getinto mid millions in revenue,
high millions in revenue, thisis where we start looking for
these type of people as opposedto, you know, I'm I'm a lawyer
who's trying to get over themillion dollar mark or I'm in 1
or $2,000,000. Do you need afractional CFOs, fractional CMO,
(21:57):
fractional whatever to run tocreate a a profitable,
sustainable, wealth generatinglaw firm. No. You don't.
Oftentimes, that's gonna justadd to your burden, your
financial burden without becauseyou're just not there yet. So
these things sort of come ininto a certain order, in my
(22:18):
opinion. That's my opinion.That's why I asked you the
question to get your take onwhat you thought about it. What
do you think about that?
Liz (22:23):
I completely agree. I I I don't think I don't think you
have the cash flow and therevenue flow under a million
dollars with a law firm practiceto to to build what most people
consider to be a leadershipteam. I I would advise, like
you, build out your technicallegal team to give you the
(22:47):
foundation and leverage to startscaling because you need you
need a volume of revenue comingin on a consistent basis to not
only pay your salary and and andtheirs comfortably, but then
you're also then positioned tothen start adding, I'm just
gonna say, the administrativeleadership team, you know, your
(23:08):
business development, yourmarketing person, your HR
ultimately down the line, yourCFO, those types of positions.
But I would encourage you toyou've gotta have the revenue
coming in first. And, you know,again, I don't know your
customer base, but but quiteoften, you can have solo
entrepreneurs that are kickingout close to a million dollars
(23:30):
on their own.
Granted, by then, if they're aservices industry, they start
tapping out because that's aboutall they they can personally
generate. So, you know, to getabove that and to start hiring
administrative staff, again, itgoes back to what type of
lifestyle do you want as theowner of the business? How much
(23:51):
do you believe to have thequality of life you want should
you be able to bill out on aregular basis? And then how much
do you believe your your otherbillable partners and staff
should be billing out to get youto the volume of cash flow that
you need to then start carryingmore overhead type positions.
(24:13):
Yeah.
Davina (24:15):
One of the recommendations I make is for
people to start withaspirational org chart just for
their first goal. Like, who isthe team that's gonna get me to
x? Whatever that goal is.Whether you're trying to make
your first 500,000 or, you know,million or 2,000,000 or
3,000,000 or whatever it is.Who's what's who's gonna be the
(24:35):
team?
So let's talk about the teambecause I think people will be
you mentioned it briefly justkind of throwing out some
different positions, but let'stalk about a leadership team and
the kind of order of that. Iknow it depends on whether they
whether the law firm owner stillwants to be involved in the
legal aspect or they just wantto run the business or whether
they want to just put aleadership team in place and
(24:57):
they're out or they're doinglegal work or whatever it is.
But generally speaking, what aresome positions that you would
define as members of aleadership team?
Liz (25:13):
I would I would look at your business manager, office
manager, business manager as aas a position to run the the
operations of your law business.So and and from from a
responsibility perspective, thatis a position that is quite
(25:36):
often managing youradministrative staff. They are
coordinating with, you know,vendors and things like that.
They are initially handling theaccounting, and it they might
have some of it outsourced. Theymight be handling it themselves.
They're kinda handling theoperations of your business. As
(25:57):
the as the business grows, theneither under that umbrella
position or that including inthat umbrella position, the the
position that I like to see, Imentioned it before, is your
business development personbecause that position is gonna
be your revenue driver. They'rethey're the position and it
(26:19):
doesn't need to be full time.This this can be part time
person initially or part time,you know, virtual even. But
they're they're gonna help youidentify and target customers,
but also potentially bring someinto you and get you exposure
into you know, if you're a locallocal marketplace, local
chamber, local communities,local banks, local CPA firms,
(26:42):
whatever, your network, they'regonna help you get your name out
and get your specialty out sopeople know why they should come
to you versus why they should goto ABC Law Firm down the road.
And and that thatdifferentiation also is really
important because that's whatalso sets you up for you to be
(27:06):
able to market yourself clearergoing forward, but also to re be
able to recruit smarter goingforward because they're gonna be
amplifying the messaging of thetype of firm you want to be,
maybe not necessarily the firmyou are right now. So that I
think That would be my numbertwo hire.
Davina (27:26):
Your number let's talk about your number two hire
because I wanna make sure thatwe're clear on you've used the
term business developer. And Ithink that to a lot of law firm
owners who haven't had anymanagement or background working
for other law firms and no suchthing exist, there's also
there's often a lot of confusionamong lawyers about marketing,
(27:47):
my marketing coordinator, mymarketing manager, business
developer, rainmaker, all ofthese terms sort of lumped
together, and they're verydistinct and different Mhmm.
Jobs. So if you are a smallerfirm, you may start out with a
marketing coordinator, justsomebody to coordinate with all
your vendors doing all of yourmarketing and then elevate to a
(28:09):
marketing director or something.But a business developer is
somebody who is tasked withbringing you business, bringing
you work much in the same waythat you think of lawyer
rainmakers.
So that is a very differentthing. They're not the ones who
are gonna be sitting theremaking your brochures,
communicating with your socialmedia company, that kind of
(28:31):
thing. They're gonna be peoplewho are actively out there
creating relationships for youand the law firm. Is that how
you define that? That's been myunderstanding from my experience
working in a law firm as inmarketing.
Liz (28:43):
Yeah. The way you just described it, that is the black
and white differentiation. Forsmaller firms, it can be one and
the same. But to your point,they're very different skill
sets.
Davina (28:57):
Very different. Yeah.
Liz (28:59):
Because marketing is just the messaging going out. You
know? What what do you have onsocial media? What do you have
in any other advertising? Whatdo you have on your your, you
know, your your, excuse me, yourstationary, your business cards,
whatever?
What does it look like? In orderto know what to message, you
need to know what you want to beknown for in the marketplace,
(29:23):
what types of clients you wantto serve. That's important for
messaging, but also for bringingin business. And most smaller
firms don't have the cash flowto have real strong messaging
and a separate social media teamand all that type of stuff and a
(29:45):
business development person.It's quite often one and the
same, which is a challengebecause, stereotypically,
individuals in that role arestronger on one side of it or
the other.
Right. And my recommendation isI would lean more strongly on
the business development sidebecause the marketing side, if
(30:09):
you basically can can projectyour name, your practice, your
specialty area, your phonenumber, your website, here's
here's how you help yourclients, That can hold you for a
while. You need the cash flow.You need the client portfolio to
grow to really start yourpractice to to grow.
Davina (30:30):
Right. Right. And I think there's so many vendors
out there, services that areable to provide a lot of what we
need in terms of marketing andadvertising and that kind of
thing that helps us sort ofstart growing those
Liz (30:43):
Right.
Davina (30:43):
Growing those leads. So talk to me about the first step.
You you mentioned the step ofsort of getting an idea of what
your vision is for your firm.And it's it's really interesting
for me because a lot of thepeople that I work with, they
don't have a strong vision. Theystart out just they open, they
(31:06):
hang their shingle, they startworking.
They're high achieving women andthey just start working and then
they get to a certain point andthey have some idea of what they
don't want and maybe not a greatidea. I think a lot of them feel
intimidated by you mentioned 20people in your firm, and I'm
inside, I'm chuckling becausethe there's so many women law
(31:26):
firm owners I talk to that thatwould be huge to them. Yeah.
They say to me, I don't want 20people working for me. And in
the context of working withlarger law firms, that's small.
Right? But for solos who arebootstrapping and growing their
business,
Liz (31:40):
that they go, oh, I
Davina (31:41):
don't want 20 people working for me. I just want you
know but tell me next steps sortof of what do they need to take?
What are the next steps thatthey need to take in terms of a
a leadership team? Should they,for instance, get more training
and leadership for themselves toreally understand what it is so
(32:03):
they can get clarity on whatthey want? Or should they, just
take a figure out which personand make a leap and hire that
person and try to figure it out.
What should they do?
Liz (32:17):
I'm gonna go back to what you just said, you know, in your
work with your with yourclients. I don't want 20 people.
And my question to them is,that's great. That's fine. You
know you don't want that.
So so what do you want? Is doyou want a team of just you and
(32:38):
two other people, maybe two, youknow, support staff, clerical
staff, and maybe one other legalperson, or would you be
comfortable with maybe threeattorneys in your practice? What
does that look like? And iflet's say that you you're
visualizing your your businessand you've got three practicing
attorneys, then then who are youthe lead? Are you the owner?
(33:01):
And or are you gonna bepartners? Because that's that
dynamic in law firms, thepartnership dynamic in and of
itself is different than a soloentrepreneur or, you know, a
solo practice. And so you needto get clear on what what do I
want there. And let's assumethat he's like, well, I don't
(33:23):
really don't want partners. I Iwant it to be my firm.
Well, then that's great. So thenwhat attributes do you do you
need in your practice, in yourbusiness, to allow you to serve
the types of customers you wannaserve at the scale you want to
serve them to cover where youcan't do it or don't wanna do it
(33:47):
on your own? So is that sometangent legal expertise? Is that
potentially not technically alegal expertise, but is it some
other support service or tangentservice that might be helpful?
And and from a leadershipperspective, is that is that
(34:10):
maybe somebody that has I I'mjust gonna completely make
something up here.
I don't know. You know, anexpertise in, I don't know,
financial management. I don'tknow. It depends upon, again,
what type of practice, what typeof business you want to create,
(34:32):
the types of customers you wannaserve, what do they need? And
that helps drive the type ofteam you need to build.
And I'll if if you don't mind,I'll share something with you
that I share with my clientswhen it comes to clarifying the
types of clients that you want,and it's called a client
portfolio analysis. So ask yourclients to to think about the
(34:59):
the clients they've served inthe last three years. Create a
spreadsheet. List them all. Andthen in front of them, you're
gonna rank order one, two,three, or four.
You're gonna put a four in frontof those that between you and I
and your listeners, you don'tever wanna work with them again
because you lost money, and theywere a nightmare to work with.
(35:23):
Because they have no loyalty toyou, you are just a commodity
that they needed you to helpthem get out of a bind. Put a
three in front of all thoseclients that you broke even. You
maybe made a little bit of moneywith it, but, man, they were a
nightmare to work with.
Davina (35:41):
Mhmm.
Liz (35:42):
That's a three. Put a two in front of any client that it
was like bread and butter. Thisthis is like your perfect
client. They're easy. Theybrought you an issue.
You go, okay. Yes. I can handleit. We'll take care of it. And
and you you do the work.
They pay their bills. They loveyou. You love them. But then you
(36:04):
go through your list and you puta one in front of any of the
clients that you provided yourcore services to. But they also
came back to you and they said,can you also do x for me?
X is it's part of your area ofexpertise, but it's a slightly
(36:28):
elevated version of thatservice. And when you think
about this client, you're like,I wanna do more of that. That's
gonna really help my business,or that's just fascinating to
me. I wanna go deeper in thisarea. They help you expand your
portfolio of services or yourexpertise.
(36:50):
They're your tier ones. And sowhen you do this client
analysis, what it starts to popup is quite often, most of us
who start are starting out ourbusinesses, where do you think
we spend most of our time? We'respending time on our twos and
threes and fours, and that's whyour margins are so small and
(37:13):
we're so exhausted. Mhmm. Butwhen we get clear on who we
wanna serve and we startmarketing to our twos and our
ones, our margins start gettingbigger.
We start enjoying the work thatwe do more. We start enjoying
our clients more, and we havemuch more profitable businesses
because we're much more laserfocused on the right types of
(37:35):
clients for my business and thatare unright for them. And it can
completely start changing yourbusiness. So when you do that
activity, you now have biggermargin, which means bigger
profit percentage, that you canthen hire your business
development manager, marketingperson, more office staff,
(37:57):
additional legal support staff,additional legal staff,
additional experts to take youdeeper, take you wider, wherever
you wanna go.
Davina (38:06):
Shifting gears a little bit, I wanna talk about, how we
what characteristics we shouldbe looking for in leadership
team. So we can look at firmadministrator or the business
developer because these are thetwo that you sort of talked
about, either that COO or firmadministrator, business and
(38:28):
manager, or that businessdeveloper because they're
they're different. Mhmm. Butwhat are the key characteristics
you would look for in the hiringprocess? And what are there any
tools that you use to helppeople figure out if people are
a good fit for those positions?
Liz (38:52):
So figuring out if a person is a good fit, I'm a firm
believer in behavioralinterviewing. So really asking
questions about their theircurrent and previous experience
with specific examples of tellme about a time when you helped
someone with X, Y, Z. That thatjust works so well. It you you
can't beat it. The otherpositions like COO, CFO, chief
(39:16):
operating officer, chieffinancial officer, chief
marketing officer, whatever itis, again, is what is the
technical expertise you needthem to bring to your business
that, a, either you don't haveor, b, you don't have time for
because you make more moneydoing things that are in your
(39:40):
sweet spot.
So for instance, first off, soyou and your you know, so your
listeners are clear. A chieffinancial officer is different
than an accountant. So anaccounting person is going to
keep track of your accounts.They're gonna tell you what
bills to pay. They're gonna tellyou what money is owed.
(40:00):
They're gonna tell you whohasn't paid an invoice. All very
important. But a chief financialofficer is going to tell you
where you could invest or howyou could use your money
differently to make more moneyor to enable you to buy the
office building down the streetor build the extension onto your
(40:22):
current office or project howyou're going to be able to add
the three new team members andleadership that you wanna add
over the next eighteen months?What salaries could you pay
them? When you should bring themin given the intended cash cash
flow of the cases you'recurrently working?
(40:43):
That's what a that's what afinancial person is going to do
for you. So, again, it goes backto what are you looking to do
with your business, and whatskill sets do you need to
complement what you don'talready have yourself that you
need to get you and yourbusiness to where you want it to
be.
Davina (41:04):
Do you think personality and personality characteristics
matter when we're hiring?Because there are a lot of
people who have skill sets thatmight not be a good fit. Sort of
how do you so are there certainthings that you recommend for,
to help law firm owners whohaven't hired at that level
before what they should belooking for beyond just skills
(41:26):
or expertise?
Liz (41:28):
So bottom line answer, oh my gosh. Yes. Personality
matters. Oh my gosh. Yes.
Because we've all experiencedindividuals who are technically
magnificent but are a nightmareto work with. So absolutely
personality matters. What Irecommend when you are looking
(41:51):
to bring somebody on your team,particularly in a key position,
a a trick that I learned from aclient of mine many, many years
ago is, obviously, you wanna doin person interviews if at all
possible, unless you can only dovirtual. But if you are the the
(42:12):
firm owner, you have other teammembers interview them first. I
know.
That's great advice. You haveYou have one you know, you may
have let's say you're looking tohire your a new you're gonna
hire a a financial person tohelp you start advising you on
(42:33):
how to build a new officebuilding or add on to your
current office building. I wouldencourage you to have your,
like, business developmentperson interview them first. Now
the prospective CFO may not likethat because they don't wanna
talk to this person. They justwanna talk to you.
But what I have found in theclient I learned this from a
(42:54):
client, it's proven itself truein my experience too. Candidates
will say things to team membersthat they won't say to you.
They'll ask questions of teammembers they won't ask of you.
And so when you and your teammembers who have also
interviewed them can debriefafterwards, you get a much
better picture of who thisperson is. And so I I encourage
(43:20):
your listeners to consider thatas an option.
If if they can have somebodyelse pre interview, particularly
if the person is gonna work withthem as a colleague, absolutely
have peers be the first lineinterview. Because when you
know, if they're like, do nothire that person, and then I
hire them, they have every rightto be irritated with me if that
(43:43):
person turns out to be anightmare. So
Davina (43:47):
I think that's a great tip, and we see that a lot with
as people are moving away frombeing the main hirer because as
a law firm owner, we're firststarting out we're the main one
hiring and interviewing there'snobody else right then when we
get to a certain point even ifit's you're bringing in that
paralegal that's your right handperson or other people on the
(44:10):
team that are spending a littletime with this new hire,
whatever position they're goingto be in, to get a sense of who
they are as a person and getthat different perspective from
somebody who does somethingdifferent within your business
is a huge thing. And also goingback earlier, we've talked a lot
about being so clear on whatyour vision is for your firm. I
(44:32):
think a huge piece of that, andI'm sure you agree with me, is
culture. When you're thinkingabout what I want my firm to
look like, it's not just growthand size and the number of
attorneys and the number ofrevenue and all that. It's
culture for most of us becausewe start our own businesses
because we want to create aworkplace that we love to be a
part of, and we want otherpeople to love to be a part of
(44:54):
it.
And so I think thatunderstanding where somebody
fits in that culture is veryimportant in the interview
process too and really seeingyou can have the skills, but are
you gonna fit in here with us inthe way that we work and and how
we function as a as a team?Absolutely. Has seen that, with
(45:14):
some of your clients go throughthat experience?
Liz (45:18):
Oh, absolutely. And and I can tell you my work with
clients right now, culture iseverything. Culture is
everything. And, you know, whenwith your listeners, when they
are when they are, you know,building their own business, as
you just said, one of thereasons, because they want to
work in an environment they wantto work in. They may have horror
stories from corporate law firmor someplace else.
(45:42):
But again, it's what type ofbusiness do I wanna create? And
it's not just that physical, asyou said, but how do I want
people to feel and treat me,treat each other, and treat our
clients in a way that we can dothe best work possible together.
And it it's not gonna be thatwe're gonna be blowing up
(46:04):
balloons and blowing bubblesevery day. But how do I create
that environment where we likecoming to work every day? We
like working with each other.
We actually like each other. Wemay not be best friends, but we
actually like each other. But wealso are are able to provide
helpful, candid feedback to oneanother with the intent that
(46:28):
this is gonna help you getbetter and allow us to do better
work for our clients. Or you'regonna provide me feedback to
help me be better, not only asan attorney, but as a business
owner so that I can also dobetter by my clients and better
by you. And if and if you cancreate that kind of environment,
that's that's really special.
(46:50):
That's really special.
Davina (46:51):
Have you, what impact have you seen with remote law
firms? I have some clients thathave fully remote law firms.
They have large teams that arelocally remote or some are even
more far flung. And how do youthink that affects? What have
you seen with your clients interms of the effect that that
has on culture, whether that'slaw firms or other types of
(47:14):
businesses?
Liz (47:16):
I was just with a client, not a law firm, but I was with a
client yesterday, and they'repulling more of their people
back in the office. Just becausein most situations, even though
productivity has stayed high andhas oftentimes gotten higher,
What has happened is sharedknowledge has dropped.
(47:40):
Collaboration has dropped. Senseof community has dropped.
Teamwork has dropped.
Effective communication hasdropped. There are there are too
many inefficiencies that arecausing them to now kind of
sputter and not keep growing.And the solution looks to be we
(48:03):
need to pull, maybe noteverybody, but certain positions
for sure, certain teams thatmake sense, back into a physical
environment, not five days aweek, maybe two, maybe three.
And we need to get veryintentional that when they are
physically together, they aredoing things physically
(48:24):
together. We're not justbringing everybody together, and
they're sitting in cubes orprivate offices doing their work
individually.
That's pointless.
Davina (48:31):
Mhmm.
Liz (48:31):
So it's it's it's coming around to not just I'm gonna
pull people back because I don'tlike managing like this. It's
it's it's turning around becausethe inefficiencies in some
organizations are starting topeak out.
Davina (48:50):
Yeah, think it depends a lot on the organization. And
also, think there's a bringingin people and understanding
there are that we may need to dothings in a different way to
create that sense of communityeven though people are remote
and to create that sense ofcollaboration even though people
(49:11):
are remote. Finding I thinkthere's a systemic issue that
most times if we can look at oursystems, we can say, well, our
systems are set up this way ifthat's what's causing that that
problem. But I know a lot of,companies are doing that.
They're starting to change back.
And some of that, there's beensome interesting, articles
written about the differentgenerations wanting different
(49:35):
things, like the youngergenerations wanting more of the
office environment because theyhaven't had it. Whereas the
older generation, I'm a Gen X,have had plenty of office
environment, and we and we don'tneed, the discipline of other
people to do work or whatever.You know? Mhmm. So or we don't
want that camaraderie in thatway.
We wanna get work done. And
Liz (49:55):
Right.
Davina (49:55):
It's going to be very interesting to see how this
plays out. Further we get awayfrom COVID, how this continues
to play out, and how AI startsto figure into what happens in
businesses, including law firms.Yeah. Liz, it's been wonderful
talking with you today. Tell ushow we can connect with you and
learn more about you and whatyou do.
Liz (50:14):
Sure. I would I would suggest two main ways. Number
one, my website, which is mybusiness name, the abbreviation
wbsllc.com. That's wbsllc.com.Or my LinkedIn, profile is Liz
Weber CMC.
Davina (50:33):
Wonderful. Thank you. We'll include those in the show
notes for anybody looking forthat. Liz, I appreciate you
being here and having thisconversation with me. It's been
so fun.
Liz (50:40):
It has been. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Intro (50:43):
If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in
your business and your life,then you'll want to visit us at
wealthywomanlawyer.com to learnmore about how we help our
clients create wealth generatinglaw firms with ease.
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