May 10, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode of the Wellness Connection MD podcast, Dr. McMinn takes an evidence-based look into the world of acupuncture alongside Dr. Margot Walbert, a Doctor of Oriental Medicine. Dr. Walbert shares her expertise on acupuncture's philosophy, training, techniques, and its efficacy in treating various conditions. She starts by reviewing some of the fundamental TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) tenants such as Qi (life force energy), and the five elements. She also discusses how in Chinese medicine they are always looking for the root cause of the problem, similar to a functional medicine approach.
Dr. Walbert walks the listener through the process of clinical evaluation, devising a customized treatment protocol, and what it is like to experience an actual acupuncture session. She emphasizes the importance of patient comfort and the mind-body connection.
Dr. McMinn reviews the evidence, and Dr. Walbert discusses her experience with successfully treating such conditions as pain, nausea, migraines, gut issues, asthma, allergic rhinitis, high blood pressure, menstrual cramps, infertility, and anxiety.
The conversation then touches on various acupuncture techniques such as needling, cupping, acupressure, ear acupuncture, electroacupuncture, moxibustion, and injection acupuncture.
Because of its evidence-based success, acupuncture is gaining traction in mainstream medicine and is now recognized as a safe, effective, and holistic therapeutic option. Esteemed and prestigious institutions like Harvard, Mayo Clinic, and John’s Hopkins School of Medicine now offer acupuncture, and the World Health Organization recommends acupuncture for over 100 conditions.
Dr. Walbert's wisdom empowers both patients considering acupuncture and aspiring acupuncturists.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, this is Dr McMinn and welcome to the
Wellness Connection MD podcast.
Do you have a health issue forwhich your current therapy is
not working, or you just want totry something new?
Consider trying acupuncture.
Acupuncture has proven to beeffective for many
health-related conditions.
In fact, the World HealthOrganization recommends
acupuncture for over 100conditions.
I personally have witnessedmiracle cures for some patients
(00:25):
with acupuncture, many of whomdid not respond well to
conventional therapies.
Today we have a special gueston the show, dr Margo Walbert,
doctor of oriental medicine, whowill share with us some inside
scoop on this interesting andpowerful therapeutic option.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe show.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Relax and enjoy the show.
Welcome to the WellnessConnection MD Podcast with Dr
McMinn and Coach Lindsey, wherewe bring you the latest,
up-to-date, evidence-basedinformation on a wide variety of
health and wellness topics,along with practical take-home
solutions.
Dr McMinn is an integrated andfunctional MD and Lindsey
Matthews is a registered nurseand IIN-IN certified health
coach.
Together, our goal is to helpyou optimize your health and
(01:09):
wellness in mind, body andspirit.
To see a list of all of ourpodcasts, visit wwwmdcom.
And to stay up to date on thelatest topics, be sure to
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The discussions contained inthese podcasts are for
educational purposes only andare not intended to diagnose or
(01:30):
treat any disease.
Please do not apply any of thisinformation without approval
from your personal doctor.
And now on to the show with DrMcMinn and Coach Lindsay.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Hello and welcome to Wellness Connection MD, the
evidence-based podcast on allthings wellness.
We thank you so much forjoining us today.
I'm Dr Jim McMinn.
We have for you a very specialguest, dr Margo Walbert, who
will be telling us everythingyou ever wanted to know about
the interesting subject ofacupuncture.
As always, we come to you tobring you commercial-free,
honest, unbiased, up-to-date,evidence-based,
(02:02):
outcomes-oriented information,along with practical solutions
in order to empower you toovercome your healthcare
concerns, to optimize yourwellness in mind, body and
spirit, and to become a greatcaptain of your ship when it
comes to your health andwellness.
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When I left the ER after almost20 years and opened my practice
at McMinn Clinic, I decided toembrace a more holistic,
(03:26):
functional and integrativeapproach to health care.
It seemed to me that there wereso many patients who were
falling through the cracks ofmodern medicine who needed a
think-different approach, asApple Computer would say.
However, as an MD, mytraditional training did not
prepare me to do that, since itwas mainly focused on drugs and
surgery, so I worked hard to addtools to my therapeutic toolbox
.
However, as a physician, I wasalso a scientist, so I always
(03:48):
felt the need to make sure thatthe tools I added to my toolbox
were evidence-based.
That's always been veryimportant to me.
As you can imagine, my MDcolleagues were very quick to
label me as a quack, since I wasstepping outside their rigid
box, so I always went the extramile to avoid modalities that
had no credible scientific basis.
I also felt that I owed it tomy patients, who often came to
(04:09):
me in dire straits and whotrusted me to shoot straight
with them.
It was at that point, afterlooking into it thoroughly, that
acupuncture emerged as a viabletherapeutic option for certain
patients.
Acupuncture has been around andhas evolved for thousands of
years.
In fact, mainstream medicine isnow actually embracing
acupuncture.
You'll find that they now do.
Acupuncture has been around andhas evolved for thousands of
years.
In fact, mainstream medicine isnow actually embracing
acupuncture.
You'll find that they now doacupuncture at Harvard
University, mayo Clinic and justabout every other major
(04:32):
academic institution.
The prestigious Johns HopkinsSchool of Medicine states that
studies have shown thatacupuncture is effective to
treat many health careconditions.
Now you may be thinking thatany perceived benefit is just
due to placebo effect.
However, my veterinarian wife,cheryl, has actually seen proof
of significant benefit inanimals.
It's hard to fathom that thiswould just be due to placebo
(04:53):
effect.
I've also heard similar storiesfrom other holistic vets who
corroborated her reports.
So Dr Cheryl is not just makingthis up for a change.
So to make a long story a bitshorter, once I became convinced
that I should offer thisservice to my patients, I took
an excellent course calledAcupuncture for Physicians.
Once I finished the course, Istarted to slowly integrate
acupuncture into my practice.
Now acupuncture is not foreverybody and it's fair to say
(05:15):
that, like with most modalities,some patients do not receive
any appreciable benefit.
But on the other hand, I didwitness some remarkable results
with some patients and it doesseem to me that acupuncture
falls into the therapeuticcategory of might help but very
unlikely to hurt you.
For instance, a nice lady whowas in her 60s came to see me
for bothersome headaches.
She had been treated by ahighly respected neurologist for
(05:37):
the past few years with noappreciable relief.
So we did acupuncture on herand it was like an amazing
miracle cure.
She and I were both blown awayby the outcomes.
Another success story was asuper nice lady who wanted to
have a baby.
She had been through everyconceivable therapy for this,
ivf, the whole works.
We did acupuncture on her.
It took quite a while and boom,she got pregnant.
(05:58):
She later brought in a pictureof her cute little, healthy baby
boy which I kept on my wall formany years.
We were both pretty happy aboutthe outcome of her therapy,
produced by acupuncture.
Finally, a physician friend ofmine and a former patient had a
terribly painful conditioncalled trigeminal neuralgia.
She was seeing many excellentphysicians, including doctors of
internal medicine, neurology,pain management etc.
(06:18):
She once told me that the thingthat helped her the most was
acupuncture.
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Then one day, out of the blue,I got a call from a Dr Margo
Walbert.
She was an acupuncturephysician and a doctor of
oriental medicine down inFlorida who wanted to move back
to Birmingham for family reasons.
Eventually we met and we hit itoff and she joined the practice
as a full-time acupuncturist.
(06:39):
She grew her practice based ona reputation of successful
outcomes and eventually she sawa ton of loyal patients and had
some excellent outcomes.
One of my favorites with DrMargo was a patient who came in
with some psoriatic skin lesions.
She had not responded well toconventional therapy and I saw
the lesions before treatment.
And I was dumbfounded when shecame back wearing a sleeveless
top, absolutely clear skin.
(07:00):
It was remarkable and I mightsay just almost magical.
So anyway, let me tell you moreabout Dr Margo.
She graduated from the East-WestCollege of Oriental Medicine in
Sarasota, florida.
She has a master's degree inoriental medicine and was
granted the title of doctor oforiental medicine in the state
of Florida.
She also did an internship atHealthSouth treating stroke
patients and also studied at thelargest TCM institute in China,
(07:22):
tcm being traditional Chinesemedicine.
After 15 years of practice,which was spent five years at
MacMahon Clinic in Birmingham,she retired and is now enjoying
lake life swimming,paddleboarding, playing
pickleball, gardening, playingmusic, singing, hanging out with
friends and family and paintingat her lakeside.
She shed.
She is also a massage therapistextraordinaire and a certified
(07:45):
expert in craniosacral therapy.
In summary, she's quite arenaissance woman and I can tell
you without a doubt Dr Margotlives life to the fullest.
So a warm welcome to you, drMargot, to the show and thank
you so much for joining us todayand to share your wisdom and
experience about the importantsubject of acupuncture.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, thank you, dr Meghman.
I'm really happy to be here.
It's a reunion I have beenwaiting for, so yes, let's start
.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Absolutely Well, dr Margo.
What made you decide to go intoacupuncture in the first place?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
I tell you what.
I was a body worker for quitesome time and I did deep tissue
massages, worked on athletes andfinally I realized my limits.
I got older and I thought I cando this forever.
And so then somebody suggestedacupuncture and I thought well,
that sounds like an interestingconcept.
So when I was 54 years old, Istarted school again, and it was
(08:36):
a 10 semester program and letme tell you, my old brain had to
be kicked into gear again to bekicked into gear again, but
anyway, yeah, that was it.
So that's when I did it and Idecided I can practice that
until my last day probably.
And then life took its course.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, that's one thing I love about you, Margot
You're always learning, even atthis stage of the game.
You and me both we're about thesame age and we're always
trying to learn more, so that'skind of cool.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
But explain to us some of the core principles of
philosophy behind howacupuncture works and from the
TCM perspective.
Well, let's start with theanatomy.
The Chinese see the human bodyas an interactive channel system
and in these channels therefloats qi, that is, the life,
essential life force.
And these channels interact, gofrom superficial down to organ
(09:29):
level.
And if you do acupuncture whichis one modality of Chinese
medicine, by the way if you doacupuncture you insert needles
in certain points on thesechannels and they have a
regulatory function.
They don't cure.
Acupuncture doesn't cure, itjust re-regulates the body where
(09:50):
it shows imbalances, so thatthe person comes back to its own
state of homeostasis.
It's all about well-being, it'sabout qi.
Energy and energy comes indifferent forms and shapes, with
different hats on.
There is yang energy, there isyin energy.
(10:12):
Yang energy is the drivingforce, it's the warming element
in your body, and yin energy isthe nurturing, cooling aspect of
your body.
That is in a nutshell.
So qi is transformative.
It can go from protection andpure energy into denser forms of
(10:35):
body liquids and blood, andthen even to an organ level when
it condenses.
So everything is moving.
There's never a still point,everything is pulsing, moving
because of energy.
So, regulating energy.
Well, other modalities do thatas well, but here it is
triggered with acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So you look at for instance, an EKG, where you have
an electrical tracing of theheart and that's energy.
You look at an EEG of the brainwhere again, you're looking at
the energy of the brain and Ithink that same energy flows all
throughout our body, butsomehow in sort of the
(11:14):
traditional Western medicine, wereally haven't embraced that or
learned to measure that.
So but anyway, that's what theancient Chinese doctors tuned
into, and so it's really kind ofcool, and over thousands of
years they've perfected theirapproach to that.
You mentioned that needles areonly one aspect of acupuncture.
Talk to us about the otherthings that people use, like
cupping and blah, blah, blah.
What else do they use?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I think the strongest impact are herbal remedies.
And they are blends of herbs, orwhat they call herbs.
It could be the tooth growlingof a tiger.
I mean, this is all you know.
They're natural products andthe way they mix them they are
having regulatory function aswell and they're much stronger,
(11:57):
you know, than acupuncture.
So herbs Chinese herbs are veryeffective.
I take some and they help metremendously.
So the other modality is, forexample, twina massage.
A Twina massage is basicallymanipulating the body, also on
points of acupuncture points, orphysically, like an adjustment.
(12:21):
And I can give you an examplewhen I was in China, a gentleman
walked into the clinic and wentto his twina therapist and he
was limping and a lot of pain.
Well, the door closed thegentleman, the twina massage
started working on thisgentleman and all we heard was
(12:43):
screaming, screaming andscreaming in pain.
And I peeked around the cornerand I saw how this gentleman put
that patient like in a pretzelposition.
And guess what, after thesession was over, the man smiled
, walked out there without alimp.
So I mean we couldn't do thathere.
You know, I mean you go to achiropractor you know, whatever
a body worker, but that is truenow, for example.
(13:04):
So there's another modality,and that is harder to explain
right now, but it's moxibustion,right.
It's a wormwood grind or shavewhich you can light up on
certain points on the body.
It is usually when the body isdeprived of something.
You need to photonify it andyou can put it directly on the
(13:26):
skin.
You've got to be careful withthat, though, because if it
burns, it can burn the skin.
You've got to be careful, butyou can stick it on top of
needles too to emphasize thestrength of the needle.
And I have seen also in Chinatreatments.
It was beyond me.
I mean the whole place wassmoking and people were sitting
there with their needles and itwas highly effective, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
so what about cupping ?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Cupping, yes, yes, yes, I mean it's still a little
controversial.
A lot of athletes, you see, youknow they have these marks and
what we used to call this?
It brings up stagnation.
What means stagnation?
So if you're working out andyour muscles are deprived of
oxygen and blood, obviously youknow they contract and they're
painful.
What the cupping is supposed todo is loosening this up and
(14:12):
bring the blood flow back towhere it didn't go.
And since you have cups, theysuck and it gives you a mark.
You know you're bruising,basically.
So, but it has been effective.
I had cupping done when I hadbronchitis, very strong
bronchitis, and they did that onmy back and it loosened up the
phlegm.
(14:32):
It loosened it up and I wasable to cough.
You know that helps.
So yeah, cupping has its place,for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And acupressure.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Acupressure is fine.
It's a different form ofacupuncture.
The only difference is youcannot.
You have only 10 fingers andthere are points on the body
that are combined, like, forexample, from the shoulder it
goes down to your leg.
There are several points youcannot do with acupressure, but
you can go to certain points onthe body to start regulating.
(15:01):
You know, and people are needlephobic, some people you may
start with acupressure.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I have found acupuncture actually to be
pretty effective for labor pains.
Oh yeah, when a woman's havinglabor, oh yeah, yeah.
And there are some points toofor labor, to induce labor,
right, but you have to very muchavoid when somebody's pregnant,
you know.
Right, that's right.
A couple of others acupuncturewhat they do on the ears.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, I mean the ear is a microcosm of the human body
and organ system and I've seenpeople from Korea Korean
acupuncture.
They work just with the ear.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah right.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
And it is like a fetus upside down.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So down by your earlobe, inside the ear.
You better be careful thatcould be the brain.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Right, right, right and the outer lining is.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Then you know the skeletal from the spine.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So you know, yeah, you can do a lot, and a lot of
this is done when people haveaddiction issues there are
protocols plain for that?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
And smoking cessation ?
Yeah right, exactly A couple ofothers.
Let's see what about.
Sometimes they connectelectricity to the needles.
I have done that a lot.
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Very much so it works very well A lot in pain
management.
I did that a lot when peoplecame in with back pain or
shoulder pain or whatever.
And I would choose my pointsand yeah, clip these electrodes
onto the needle and then youknow it works very well onto the
needle and then you know itworks very well.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
And then finally some acupuncturists actually inject
some fluids into the acupuncturepoint.
Yes, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
That you can do in Alabama, but there's an
injection therapy which I havecertification for in Florida.
You can do that, you know.
So, yeah, this is usuallysometimes.
There are herbals, you know,and they are very effective
because they immediately hit,you know, the bloodstream, okay
well, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
So when a patient presents to you with a certain
set of symptoms in medicalhistory, et cetera, how do you
evaluate that patient to decidewhat kind of treatment plan they
need?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
From the minute he steps into my office.
You observe a patient by hisposture, by his demeanor, by his
complexion, by his voice youknow, and then you ask for the
chief complaint and said okay.
So let's say somebody says ohman, I've had diarrhea for about
six months or something likethat, and they've tried
(17:20):
everything else, but it didn'twork out.
So, number one, you ask whetherthere was any kind of situation
when that started, becausethere's a body-mind connection
that is very much respected inChinese medicine.
So and then you hear that, thenyou ask about tastes.
What kind of food do you prefer, you know?
(17:40):
And if it's sweet, well youknow there's a spleen thing.
If it's a lot of salt, it's akidney.
If it's sour, pickles andwhatever it's liver.
So there are certain tastesassociated with the organs and
emotions as well.
So a person who's very pensiveall the time can be because of a
(18:02):
spleen issue or the pensivenesscan also influence the spleen.
So this is, you know, this is ainterdependent kind of situation
and that I put together andlook at the tongue, the tongue
is also a microcosm of theorgans and the quality of the
(18:22):
tongue, the thickness of thetongue, the color, you know, the
coating is very important andbased on all of that and pulses.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
And pulses right, yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
You know left and right pulses.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Well, tell me about the five elements, the wind,
water, all that kind of stuff.
What's that all about?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Okay, that is a five element theory that came after
the Yin and Yang theory, andthere are a lot of practitioners
who practice just that.
Okay, so there are fiveelements the heart is the fire
element, the stomach spleen isthe earth element, the lung is
the metal element, the kidney isthe water element and the liver
(19:01):
is the wood element.
And they can interplay.
They can either insultsomething For example, if you
have a liver that's overacting,it can overact on stomach spleen
.
So that's why you don't justtreat the stomach or the spleen,
you also consider where does itcome from?
So it's a cycle, it's a circle.
(19:22):
There are circles ofinteractions within the body
that are respected in this kindof medicine, you know, and if we
, yeah, if you want to compareit with Western medicine, well,
I must say they have more anisolated view of the body.
You know, they say okay, that'sa gallbladder issue, boing, I'm
going to give you somemedication make the gallbladder
work.
Well, hello, it may not be justthe gallbladder.
(19:44):
You know there could be otherorgans involved that contribute
to this.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
They're all connected , aren't they Margaret?
Yeah, of course yeah, we're awhole being.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And you know, since we're on that tangent, there is
something they say in Chinesemedicine you peel an imbalance
like an onion.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So you go from?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
what are your symptoms to where could this
originate?
Okay, and then we talk aboutthe ben and the biao.
The ben is the trunk, that isthe root problem, and then the
branches, the symptoms, whichare not isolated either, you
know.
So then you come to treatmentmodalities and you think wait a
(20:24):
minute, what is the mostprominent issue here?
Am I going to treat the rootcause right away or do I treat
the main symptom first,depending on the gravity of the
symptom?
So that's another aspect.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
It reminds me of the functional medicine approach,
where a patient may come in withanxiety, depression, but at the
end of the day it might be agut issue due to the gut-brain
connection, and same thinggut-brain connection and same
thing gut-skin connection, thatkind of stuff.
So yeah, we're always thinkingof what's the root cause of the
problem and it sounds likethat's very similar to what
y'all are thinking.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So let's say somebody comes to see you and you do
your evaluation and you decidethey need to get a needle
treatment.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Describe an actual treatment session for start to
finish, what's the patient goingto experience there?
The first thing.
I let them talk talk about theirown issues.
Then I observe them and, as Isaid, you make your diagnosis
pulse and whatever.
You put this all together andcome and you head up with a
possible treatment plan.
The patient goes laying down onthe table, you have a relaxing
atmosphere, you have relaxingmusic playing, you don't have
(21:29):
bright lights shining on thepoor guy.
So you know it's an intimatelike in a little shell.
You know that's how the patienthas to feel.
And then you swap the pointsyou know, with alcohol and then
you take your needles and youinsert them accordingly.
And I always treat the mindwith the body.
(21:51):
So that always goes together,always calm the mind or whatever
.
And needles people aresometimes afraid of them.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
They are yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And then I say, okay, I'm showing you what it does.
And I put a needle in me, youknow.
And I said, look, this is all.
And before they know it, I said, let me just try this on you
and you can tell me if you feelpain or not.
And they don't feel pain.
I mean most of them don't feelpain, you know so.
And then the needles are justlike little whiskers, I mean
they're needles, they're hairthin.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, really, you know For sure.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
And you know for sure , and they're sterile.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, that's actually .
I think people are concernedabout two things.
Number one are the needlesterile?
Number two does it hurt?
And I think you've answeredboth of those yeah, no they're
sterile.
Okay, good, well, all right,wonderful.
Yeah, I remember your room,margaret.
When you came into the officeyou set up the room and, oh my
gosh, it was just such arelaxing place.
You had these beautifulpaintings on the wall, you had
this relaxing music.
Sometimes I would come and I'dsee the patient and you had the
(22:45):
warming lamps right.
So, you did everything you couldto put that patient at ease and
make it a pleasant, positiveexperience.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Sometimes, you know, at the end of the treatment I
would also work on them manuallya little bit you know, work on
their head or whatever, toreally just bring them back,
Because some people phase out,you know, so you've got to bring
them back and then when they'represent, full present in their
body, then you know they'reready to go.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, Are there any major safety considerations like
, for instance, puncture alongwith the needle or those kind of
things?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well, you have to be careful how you insert them, you
know I mean you cannot, youknow, go perpendicular in an
area where you get apneumothorax for example, you
know.
So you've got to know yourtechniques rather well, sure you
know?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think acupuncture is one of the
things that's really safe andeffective in almost no downside
effects if used properly.
But if you get somebody whodoesn't know what they're doing,
then, yeah, that could end upin trouble.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yeah, that's why you need to have training, a lot of
training.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
And, for instance, you're talking about doing it on
a pregnant woman.
That could be a problem, inducepremature labor, or somebody
had like a coagulopathy and theycouldn't do it.
They would be bleedingprofusely.
So yeah, there are certaincontradictions and safety things
, but that's why you do thetraining right.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
But you ask people if they're, for example, on
Coumadin or blood thinners.
You know, so you've got to makesure that they are not.
Or if they are, then you needyou know, not as deeply as so.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
So in your practice, did you often work in
conjunction with other healthcare providers, or was it just a
whole separate?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
thing.
It very much depends, you know,I mean, for example, you and I
have worked together on certainpatients.
Correct and that worked very,very well.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
If you have a physician who's open-minded but
then some think it's voodoo work.
Acupuncture is voodoo work.
I mean, those people can't eventalk, correct?
I don't try to convince thembecause they're not convincible,
unless I tweet them and theyrealize something, but often
that's not the case.
Realize something, but oftenthat's not the case.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, I think historically, most regular I'll
call them regular doctors arenot particularly accepting of
alternative therapies likeacupuncture.
But I think it's changing.
I think people are becomingmore accepting, especially as we
have more patient demand.
I think people are looking foroptions and so, yeah, I think,
especially in certain fields,like I know, sometimes your
(25:07):
fertility doctors will work withan acupuncturist because the
data shows clearly that it helps.
You have somebody do an IVFwith or without acupuncture and
the data clearly shows it worksbetter with acupuncture.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Absolutely, and I always told everybody I got a
lot of women pregnant.
There we go.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
If I recall, there was a little board of pictures
up on your wall of women who hadbabies, because of you.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And those were women who could not have babies
otherwise.
Yes, and so that was reallycool.
What about Margot the issue ofregulation of acupuncture by,
say, local authorities like theState Board of Medicine or
whatever?
What's the issue there?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Well, it depends on the state.
For example, Alabama doesn'teven require licensure.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I was just surprised.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
In Florida they are very, very strict and you have
to keep your practice in acertain security level and you
get inspected every year and youknow you have to have a clean
field.
You cannot have the dirtyneedles right next to the clean
field, and so on.
Yeah, so then there are otherstates California you can do
(26:15):
much more than we could even doin Florida, and it's longer and
more intense education.
So it depends on the state.
It's not federally regulated.
In in florida I was on theboard.
It was the board of what is it?
Gosh medicine?
Yeah right, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And here, not in alabama, yeah, yeah, you know
right.
So as a result, especially instates like alabama, where it's
just not regulated at all, Iwould imagine there are people
out there doing acupuncture thatreally are not qualified to do
it, and so how does somebody goalong and find a qualified,
reputable acupuncturist in theirarea?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
If they are nationally N-C-A-O-M if they're
nationally qualified.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
How does a patient know that?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
They can look it up.
Every acupuncturist has to havetheir license number and if
they don't have a license oreven their national
qualifications, so they can lookfor that.
However, there are also now alot of chiropractors.
Some of them do acupuncture,but they do pain management, and
(27:22):
there is something about it,you know, I mean they don't do
the system.
But I mean they can buychannels.
They can do that and they'recalled ashi points.
They're points, they are justnot on any channel necessarily.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
They go by paint pattern.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
But that seems to sometimes work, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Exactly, and I think there are a lot of actually
physical therapists out therenow doing what they call
needling right.
Right yeah, Dry needling right.
Right, yeah, dry needling, dryneedling, and it seems like
again, that seems to help somefolks.
So we're all for whatever helpspeople.
Are there any particular areasof acupuncture research that
seem to be exciting these days?
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, number one.
They have definitely found outthat fertility issues that
definitely works Anxiety.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it works perfectly well
with anxiety.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there are and there havebeen studies, but they are
studies from a Western point ofview.
They're making measurements andsaid oh, it's his stomach 36,
which is a tonification point.
I see there's, you know,chemistry going on after you
insert that point.
So, yeah, it's more integratedby now in several aspects of
(28:32):
Western medicine.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
You know it is, and I think in Western medicine we're
finding more and more researchon it, with controlled studies.
I look at acupuncture, noacupuncture and even what we
call sham acupuncture.
Why don't you explain that tous, margot?
What sham acupuncture is?
Sham acupuncture, for example'tyou explain that to us, margot?
What's sham acupuncture is?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Sham acupuncture is for example.
It's just like ashy points.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
You don't understand the physiology of the body.
That is a difference too youknow, An acupuncture physician.
It's basically a medical viewof the body from a Chinese point
of view you know so.
But if you don't understand themechanism within the body, you
know, yeah, I can do shamacupuncture.
You know, I have a headache boy.
I put a needle in, but that maynot really do the trick, you
(29:13):
know.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
So, speaking of some of those studies they're doing,
for instance, in 2018, a studycame out in the journal Pain and
found that acupuncture waseffective with the treatment of
chronic musculoskeletal pain,headaches, osteoarthritic pain
and yeah.
So that was kind of cool andthey found in the study it could
not be explained solely byplacebo effects.
Some people say, well, it'sjust placebo, doctor.
(29:34):
No it's not.
No, it's not Also for nausea.
That's kind of anotherinteresting one.
The National Cancer Institutedid a clinical trial showing
that acupuncture was effectivetreatment for nausea, and that's
nausea from morning sickness,from pregnant women, from
travelers post-operative nausea,chemotherapy-induced nausea all
kinds of nausea and seasickness.
(29:55):
Exactly exactly.
So did you find it effectivefor that?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yes, very much so.
Acupuncture doesn't treatcancer, but it treats.
You know, the side effects oftherapy, Right, you know so, and
that is very, very effective.
You know, we had this onepatient.
She had pancreatic cancer,Remember, yeah, yeah, sure, and
she lived another two years.
You know, I mean against allodds.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And she combined treatments from you with
acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
And we've had a wonderful time with this woman?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yes, and also other digestive issues like
constipation, diarrhea,irritable bowel syndrome,
Crohn's ileus and gallstonedisease.
All those things can respond toacupuncture, right?
Yeah, Good, good, good.
What about migraines?
Margot, have you had much luckwith migraines?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yes, I had manually and with acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Absolutely but you do it right on the onset, once the
migraine has come into fullforce.
It's very difficult.
But when you feel an onset andI have friends they said, margot
, come over.
I think I'm going to get amigraine and there are points on
the skull that help it, youknow, and then you can anchor it
with always distal points.
There are always distal pointsand points right on.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So, to be clear, if somebody has a headache, you
could actually be doing a pointon their foot right.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, if it's a called-bedderchannel.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
You take a called-bedder point?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Because you've got to think channels.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
You can't be punctual .
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Exactly, exactly.
So, yeah, there was, let's see.
The American MigraineFoundation, in 2017, did a
systematic review of 22 clinicaltrials that found that
acupuncture can reduce thefrequency of headaches in people
with migraines by 50% or more,with up to 59% of the patients,
and the effect can last morethan six months.
So, yeah, I think that'scertainly a strong endorsement
of acupuncture for migraines.
(31:36):
What about fibromyalgia?
Did you have much luck withthat?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I mean, I had a person who had that and she had
to come at least three times aweek Because it's such a wide
range.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know what caused fibromyalgia and many different
things can cause it as well.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
But there was a clinical study on that and they
found that it was effective forpain, quality of sleep and also
just overall quality of life.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
And then let's see menstrual cramps.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
How about stuff like that?
Oh yeah, Wonderful.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, yeah, good, good, yeah, yeah, good, good.
Yeah, that works rather well.
Or any period, painful period,you know if somebody for example
, comes because they havepainful, their period is not
correct.
Then you ask about the flow.
Is it bright blood, is itclotted blood, whatever?
And then, dependent on that,you needle these people, you
know, and there are points onthe leg, there are points on the
(32:26):
abdomen, you know, there areall kinds of points that are in
combination, help that.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, and, as my listeners know, one thing I hang
my hat on is being what I callevidence-based Margot.
Yes, in 2018, there was areview of 60 randomized
controlled trials that foundthat acupuncture was effective
in reducing menstrual pain andrelated symptoms.
So there, again Fabulous.
I'm so glad you did thatresearch.
Well, you are, because I thinkthat you know women are often
just left to suffer with thingslike menstrual pain and stuff
(32:52):
like that and there's no needfor that, and they could come
and see you and you would givethem great relief.
And so also asthma is anotherinteresting thing.
Did you have much luck withthat, margot?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
You ask a patient, okay do you have a problem
inhaling or do you have aproblem exhaling, and there are
different mechanisms, and thenyou treat accordingly, because
there are different organsinvolved.
There's a different qideficiency involved.
And so there's a kidney andthere's the lung.
So kidney anchors the breath.
The lung should bring it down,but it also has to exhale.
And when there's a qideficiency, well, the lung is
not working.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Yeah, there was a systematicreview and meta-analysis of
randomized, sham-controlled andplacebo-controlled trials and
they found that acupunctureappeared to improve quality of
life, breathing symptoms, asthmacontrol and reduce frequency of
flare-ups.
So, yeah, that's pretty cool.
What about the allergicrhinitis?
You know, like a runny nose?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh yeah, you can do that.
Wonderful herbs and theirpoints you use.
I mean, yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, another 2022 systematic review and
meta-analysis found thatacupuncture is effective in
treating allergic rhinitis inadults, so I wanted some good
evidence for that.
And lastly, let me ask youabout blood pressure.
Did you actually ever useacupuncture to reduce blood
pressure?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yes, absolutely, there are points on the arm
especially, yes, you can, andit's also the mind Right,
exactly Always the mind.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh, so much of blood pressure is due to.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Anxiety or whatever.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Stress and anxiety Right right Makes your heart
pump faster.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Stress measures yes, stress managing.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So randomized prospective trial published in
the journal Circulation, whichis a huge journal, and they
concluded that acupuncturesignificantly lowers blood
pressure.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Isn't that?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
wonderful, yeah.
And I think sometimes you knowwhen you go to see your doctor
and he or she checks your bloodpressure is high, they get out
their script pad and write meds.
But you know there's so manyother things you can do.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
The herbs you mentioned.
You can do meditation, you cando Qigong, acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, exactly when I opened my mind to alternative
therapies.
I always tried to beevidence-based and I think the
evidence is solid thatacupuncture can really help a
lot of these folks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Any other major success storiesthat you would like to share
with us?
I always love these anecdotesthat people have, and some of
(35:03):
them are, just like I said, thelady with psoriasis.
That was remarkable.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
It was amazing.
Yeah, that was a wonderfulsuccess story?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Any other great stories you'd like to?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
share.
Yes, yes, yes, there was a lady, a heavy set lady.
She came in, she had sciaticaforever.
And you know what?
Maybe by luck, I don't know why.
I inserted the needles which Ifound.
I put her on her stomach andthen there were certain needles
you can insert.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Man.
She got off the table and shehad no pain For real.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And she said I don't know what you did.
She never had to come back, shewalked out of there.
I was fascinated.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
And, to be clear, that's not to imply that
everybody with sciatica is goingto have a relief.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
No, no, no.
For some people it doesn't workat all.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
But for others it can be miraculous.
And again, so you havesomething that might help, is
not sciatica.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Usually it takes longer time.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Some people need several treatments.
The only problem is the costfactor you know I mean insurance
doesn't cover it.
If insurance covered it itwould not be so costly.
It's a horrible thing.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
So that's why I always kept my rates affordable,
because I really wanted to helppeople and not get rich of it.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right, but then insurance will pay for meds for
the rest of her life and she'llsuffer with addiction from the
pain, meds et cetera, but theywon't pay for acupuncture.
It's kind of crazy.
Now you mentioned she was alittle bit overweight.
What about acupuncture forweight loss?
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I did that on somebody and did it Ear A lot of
ear points.
Yeah, there's a hunger point.
There are different points inthe ear.
You can just tweet it by theear, yeah the ear.
Are there any major what I callmisconceptions about
(36:38):
acupuncture you'd like toaddress?
You know, all I can say ispeople.
I hear people often say well, Iguess it's all in your head.
You got to believe it in orderfor it to be successful.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
I said no.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
A lot of people were questioning this and they walked
out, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
That's right and that's why I love these what I
call sham acupuncture studies.
In fact, the concept of sham isreally interesting.
There was a situation years agowhere people would come in with
like osteoarthritis of the kneeand the orthopedic surgeons
would do surgery.
But then they got to where theyactually tried a bunch of sham
surgery.
In other words, they would cutthe knee and then close it back
(37:06):
up and they never did anything.
Well, guess what the shamsurgery patients did?
Just as good as the realsurgery patients.
So I think it's worthwhile tokind of sort out, you know, is
there a placebo effect here?
If there's not, and try to beevidence-based about it.
But yeah, this is not somethingthat's just kind of an
all-in-your-head type of thing?
Speaker 3 (37:21):
No, it's not.
And you know what?
A lot of lower back pain isemotionally induced, or your
stress around your shoulders, Imean there's a lot of emotional
impact you have to respect thatand treat it that way.
So you go both ways.
You're going to treat the issueand then you're going to treat
the emotional part.
So calm the mind.
We always say that.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
So is there any particular advice you'd like to
give to a patient who might beconsidering acupuncture for the
first time?
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, I would say be careful whom you are choosing,
look at their education and thensee if you personally relate to
that person.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
That's huge that is really important.
Really important right.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
You know, I mean you're not just somebody.
Yeah, you got to relate to thatperson, you got to feel you
trust that person and you cantalk to that person you know,
and that's important.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, there was a guy in town years ago was doing
acupuncture and I had somefeedback from patients.
I hear that he was actuallyquite good, but feedback from
patients that his office wasfilthy.
So to some people that's realturnoff and so, yeah, you have
to go and kind of check it out,see how you feel about the whole
, the practice, the provider,and is it a good vibe for you?
(38:26):
And what about for, say, ayoung person, Margo, or some
50-year-old like you who mightbe thinking about getting into
acupuncture as a career?
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Well, I didn't.
It's never too late, I must say.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
And it was a satisfying career.
Yeah, I mean yeah, I did it at54 years old and I think if you
work it right and you build yourpractice, you can make a good
living doing acupuncture yes,you can.
Absolutely, and it's certainlya lot less stressful than being
an ER doc like I was for 20years.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Oh God, no, I can't even imagine that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Well, all right then.
Well, anything, any lastthoughts you'd like to share
with us, Margot?
Speaker 3 (38:58):
No, it was just such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
It's good to see you again.
I want to have you come onboard and take that over, and
(39:22):
you did such a fabulous job.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know what here.
Talking about relations, youknow how you feel about a person
.
I made a cold call when.
I lived in Florida and I said,make men I made a cold call when
I lived in Florida and I saidMeg Menkling, that sounds kind
of interesting.
So I talked to you and yourvoice vibrated and said, well,
that may be something.
It was an immediate.
Well, let's give this a try.
And then we met twice again,and said okay, boom.
No big contracts, Come on in andthat was the wonderful way to
(39:47):
do it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It was.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I cherish those years very, very much.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
You brought such a wonderful energy to the office
and to the patients, and so itwas great.
I've been your victim manytimes.
I've had acupuncture by you,I've had your massage, and your
craniosacral therapy was great.
Yeah, that works well, I knowthis show is not about that, but
just say a little bit of wordabout craniosacral therapy.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Well, I mean the craniosacral fluid, the spinal
fluid is rhythmic, so it goes upthe spinal cord and then it
widens, and then it compressesand widens and compresses.
So you try to regulate that.
You can find actuallyimbalances by checking on the
flow of the spinal fluid.
So that is a process youdevelop a feel for and then you
(40:32):
do a lot of cranial workactually I did that a lot with
other people and you want thefascia also to relax, to feel a
correspondence to where you'reworking on, and when that
releases you feel it.
You know you feel a release andit has been amazing Lots of
somato-emotional release where?
But you have people that arestuck with their emotion and
(40:53):
they start bursting out cryingforever and it's a wonderful.
I mean, yeah, it's a wonderfulrelease you know, so I've had
that.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
You know it was very good.
Yeah, well, all right then.
Well, margot, once again, thankyou so much for coming down and
doing the podcast with us today.
It's great to see you.
But that'll about do it forthis episode of Wellness
Connection MD.
I hope the episode was helpfulto you in some way.
After all, that's why we do theshow.
But don't forget to check usout on mcminnmdcom, where you
(41:20):
can find a connection to all ofour podcasts and where you can
also access Wellness MD blog, aswell as lots of other great
health and wellness information.
You can also find there all ofmy social media links.
But You'll find there all of mysocial media links.
But please help the podcastgrow by telling your friends and
family about us and please takea moment to review us on iTunes
.
These reviews really do help usout.
If you want to reach out to meby email, you can do so at
drmcminn at yahoocom.
(41:41):
And, in closing, thank you somuch for listening.
This is Dr McMinn signing out.
Take care and be well.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Thank you, good tea to all of you.
Hello, this is Dr McMinn and welcome to the
Wellness Connection MD podcast.
Do you have a health issue forwhich your current therapy is
not working, or you just want totry something new?
Consider trying acupuncture.
Acupuncture has proven to beeffective for many
health-related conditions.
In fact, the World HealthOrganization recommends
acupuncture for over 100conditions.
I personally have witnessedmiracle cures for some patients
(00:25):
with acupuncture, many of whomdid not respond well to
conventional therapies.
Today we have a special gueston the show, dr Margo Walbert,
doctor of oriental medicine, whowill share with us some inside
scoop on this interesting andpowerful therapeutic option.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe show.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Relax and enjoy the show.
Welcome to the WellnessConnection MD Podcast with Dr
McMinn and Coach Lindsey, wherewe bring you the latest,
up-to-date, evidence-basedinformation on a wide variety of
health and wellness topics,along with practical take-home
solutions.
Dr McMinn is an integrated andfunctional MD and Lindsey
Matthews is a registered nurseand IIN-IN certified health
coach.
Together, our goal is to helpyou optimize your health and
(01:09):
wellness in mind, body andspirit.
To see a list of all of ourpodcasts, visit wwwmdcom.
And to stay up to date on thelatest topics, be sure to
subscribe to our podcast on yourfavorite podcast player so that
you'll be notified when futureepisodes come out.
The discussions contained inthese podcasts are for
educational purposes only andare not intended to diagnose or
(01:30):
treat any disease.
Please do not apply any of thisinformation without approval
from your personal doctor.
And now on to the show with DrMcMinn and Coach Lindsay.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Hello and welcome to Wellness Connection MD, the
evidence-based podcast on allthings wellness.
We thank you so much forjoining us today.
I'm Dr Jim McMinn.
We have for you a very specialguest, dr Margo Walbert, who
will be telling us everythingyou ever wanted to know about
the interesting subject ofacupuncture.
As always, we come to you tobring you commercial-free,
honest, unbiased, up-to-date,evidence-based,
(02:02):
outcomes-oriented information,along with practical solutions
in order to empower you toovercome your healthcare
concerns, to optimize yourwellness in mind, body and
spirit, and to become a greatcaptain of your ship when it
comes to your health andwellness.
Before we get going, I have justa couple of brief housekeeping
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Our podcast is one of thoserare podcasts that remains
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(02:24):
However, it does cost us moneyto produce these podcasts, so
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Thank you so much for yoursupport.
And now on to the show.
When I left the ER after almost20 years and opened my practice
at McMinn Clinic, I decided toembrace a more holistic,
(03:26):
functional and integrativeapproach to health care.
It seemed to me that there wereso many patients who were
falling through the cracks ofmodern medicine who needed a
think-different approach, asApple Computer would say.
However, as an MD, mytraditional training did not
prepare me to do that, since itwas mainly focused on drugs and
surgery, so I worked hard to addtools to my therapeutic toolbox
.
However, as a physician, I wasalso a scientist, so I always
(03:48):
felt the need to make sure thatthe tools I added to my toolbox
were evidence-based.
That's always been veryimportant to me.
As you can imagine, my MDcolleagues were very quick to
label me as a quack, since I wasstepping outside their rigid
box, so I always went the extramile to avoid modalities that
had no credible scientific basis.
I also felt that I owed it tomy patients, who often came to
(04:09):
me in dire straits and whotrusted me to shoot straight
with them.
It was at that point, afterlooking into it thoroughly, that
acupuncture emerged as a viabletherapeutic option for certain
patients.
Acupuncture has been around andhas evolved for thousands of
years.
In fact, mainstream medicine isnow actually embracing
acupuncture.
You'll find that they now do.
Acupuncture has been around andhas evolved for thousands of
years.
In fact, mainstream medicine isnow actually embracing
acupuncture.
You'll find that they now doacupuncture at Harvard
University, mayo Clinic and justabout every other major
(04:32):
academic institution.
The prestigious Johns HopkinsSchool of Medicine states that
studies have shown thatacupuncture is effective to
treat many health careconditions.
Now you may be thinking thatany perceived benefit is just
due to placebo effect.
However, my veterinarian wife,cheryl, has actually seen proof
of significant benefit inanimals.
It's hard to fathom that thiswould just be due to placebo
(04:53):
effect.
I've also heard similar storiesfrom other holistic vets who
corroborated her reports.
So Dr Cheryl is not just makingthis up for a change.
So to make a long story a bitshorter, once I became convinced
that I should offer thisservice to my patients, I took
an excellent course calledAcupuncture for Physicians.
Once I finished the course, Istarted to slowly integrate
acupuncture into my practice.
Now acupuncture is not foreverybody and it's fair to say
(05:15):
that, like with most modalities,some patients do not receive
any appreciable benefit.
But on the other hand, I didwitness some remarkable results
with some patients and it doesseem to me that acupuncture
falls into the therapeuticcategory of might help but very
unlikely to hurt you.
For instance, a nice lady whowas in her 60s came to see me
for bothersome headaches.
She had been treated by ahighly respected neurologist for
(05:37):
the past few years with noappreciable relief.
So we did acupuncture on herand it was like an amazing
miracle cure.
She and I were both blown awayby the outcomes.
Another success story was asuper nice lady who wanted to
have a baby.
She had been through everyconceivable therapy for this,
ivf, the whole works.
We did acupuncture on her.
It took quite a while and boom,she got pregnant.
(05:58):
She later brought in a pictureof her cute little, healthy baby
boy which I kept on my wall formany years.
We were both pretty happy aboutthe outcome of her therapy,
produced by acupuncture.
Finally, a physician friend ofmine and a former patient had a
terribly painful conditioncalled trigeminal neuralgia.
She was seeing many excellentphysicians, including doctors of
internal medicine, neurology,pain management etc.
(06:18):
She once told me that the thingthat helped her the most was
acupuncture.
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Then one day, out of the blue,I got a call from a Dr Margo
Walbert.
She was an acupuncturephysician and a doctor of
oriental medicine down inFlorida who wanted to move back
to Birmingham for family reasons.
Eventually we met and we hit itoff and she joined the practice
as a full-time acupuncturist.
(06:39):
She grew her practice based ona reputation of successful
outcomes and eventually she sawa ton of loyal patients and had
some excellent outcomes.
One of my favorites with DrMargo was a patient who came in
with some psoriatic skin lesions.
She had not responded well toconventional therapy and I saw
the lesions before treatment.
And I was dumbfounded when shecame back wearing a sleeveless
top, absolutely clear skin.
(07:00):
It was remarkable and I mightsay just almost magical.
So anyway, let me tell you moreabout Dr Margo.
She graduated from the East-WestCollege of Oriental Medicine in
Sarasota, florida.
She has a master's degree inoriental medicine and was
granted the title of doctor oforiental medicine in the state
of Florida.
She also did an internship atHealthSouth treating stroke
patients and also studied at thelargest TCM institute in China,
(07:22):
tcm being traditional Chinesemedicine.
After 15 years of practice,which was spent five years at
MacMahon Clinic in Birmingham,she retired and is now enjoying
lake life swimming,paddleboarding, playing
pickleball, gardening, playingmusic, singing, hanging out with
friends and family and paintingat her lakeside.
She shed.
She is also a massage therapistextraordinaire and a certified
(07:45):
expert in craniosacral therapy.
In summary, she's quite arenaissance woman and I can tell
you without a doubt Dr Margotlives life to the fullest.
So a warm welcome to you, drMargot, to the show and thank
you so much for joining us todayand to share your wisdom and
experience about the importantsubject of acupuncture.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, thank you, dr Meghman.
I'm really happy to be here.
It's a reunion I have beenwaiting for, so yes, let's start
.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Absolutely Well, dr Margo.
What made you decide to go intoacupuncture in the first place?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
I tell you what.
I was a body worker for quitesome time and I did deep tissue
massages, worked on athletes andfinally I realized my limits.
I got older and I thought I cando this forever.
And so then somebody suggestedacupuncture and I thought well,
that sounds like an interestingconcept.
So when I was 54 years old, Istarted school again, and it was
(08:36):
a 10 semester program and letme tell you, my old brain had to
be kicked into gear again to bekicked into gear again, but
anyway, yeah, that was it.
So that's when I did it and Idecided I can practice that
until my last day probably.
And then life took its course.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, that's one thing I love about you, Margot
You're always learning, even atthis stage of the game.
You and me both we're about thesame age and we're always
trying to learn more, so that'skind of cool.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
But explain to us some of the core principles of
philosophy behind howacupuncture works and from the
TCM perspective.
Well, let's start with theanatomy.
The Chinese see the human bodyas an interactive channel system
and in these channels therefloats qi, that is, the life,
essential life force.
And these channels interact, gofrom superficial down to organ
(09:29):
level.
And if you do acupuncture whichis one modality of Chinese
medicine, by the way if you doacupuncture you insert needles
in certain points on thesechannels and they have a
regulatory function.
They don't cure.
Acupuncture doesn't cure, itjust re-regulates the body where
(09:50):
it shows imbalances, so thatthe person comes back to its own
state of homeostasis.
It's all about well-being, it'sabout qi.
Energy and energy comes indifferent forms and shapes, with
different hats on.
There is yang energy, there isyin energy.
(10:12):
Yang energy is the drivingforce, it's the warming element
in your body, and yin energy isthe nurturing, cooling aspect of
your body.
That is in a nutshell.
So qi is transformative.
It can go from protection andpure energy into denser forms of
(10:35):
body liquids and blood, andthen even to an organ level when
it condenses.
So everything is moving.
There's never a still point,everything is pulsing, moving
because of energy.
So, regulating energy.
Well, other modalities do thatas well, but here it is
triggered with acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So you look at for instance, an EKG, where you have
an electrical tracing of theheart and that's energy.
You look at an EEG of the brainwhere again, you're looking at
the energy of the brain and Ithink that same energy flows all
throughout our body, butsomehow in sort of the
(11:14):
traditional Western medicine, wereally haven't embraced that or
learned to measure that.
So but anyway, that's what theancient Chinese doctors tuned
into, and so it's really kind ofcool, and over thousands of
years they've perfected theirapproach to that.
You mentioned that needles areonly one aspect of acupuncture.
Talk to us about the otherthings that people use, like
cupping and blah, blah, blah.
What else do they use?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I think the strongest impact are herbal remedies.
And they are blends of herbs, orwhat they call herbs.
It could be the tooth growlingof a tiger.
I mean, this is all you know.
They're natural products andthe way they mix them they are
having regulatory function aswell and they're much stronger,
(11:57):
you know, than acupuncture.
So herbs Chinese herbs are veryeffective.
I take some and they help metremendously.
So the other modality is, forexample, twina massage.
A Twina massage is basicallymanipulating the body, also on
points of acupuncture points, orphysically, like an adjustment.
(12:21):
And I can give you an examplewhen I was in China, a gentleman
walked into the clinic and wentto his twina therapist and he
was limping and a lot of pain.
Well, the door closed thegentleman, the twina massage
started working on thisgentleman and all we heard was
(12:43):
screaming, screaming andscreaming in pain.
And I peeked around the cornerand I saw how this gentleman put
that patient like in a pretzelposition.
And guess what, after thesession was over, the man smiled
, walked out there without alimp.
So I mean we couldn't do thathere.
You know, I mean you go to achiropractor you know, whatever
a body worker, but that is truenow, for example.
(13:04):
So there's another modality,and that is harder to explain
right now, but it's moxibustion,right.
It's a wormwood grind or shavewhich you can light up on
certain points on the body.
It is usually when the body isdeprived of something.
You need to photonify it andyou can put it directly on the
(13:26):
skin.
You've got to be careful withthat, though, because if it
burns, it can burn the skin.
You've got to be careful, butyou can stick it on top of
needles too to emphasize thestrength of the needle.
And I have seen also in Chinatreatments.
It was beyond me.
I mean the whole place wassmoking and people were sitting
there with their needles and itwas highly effective, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
so what about cupping ?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Cupping, yes, yes, yes, I mean it's still a little
controversial.
A lot of athletes, you see, youknow they have these marks and
what we used to call this?
It brings up stagnation.
What means stagnation?
So if you're working out andyour muscles are deprived of
oxygen and blood, obviously youknow they contract and they're
painful.
What the cupping is supposed todo is loosening this up and
(14:12):
bring the blood flow back towhere it didn't go.
And since you have cups, theysuck and it gives you a mark.
You know you're bruising,basically.
So, but it has been effective.
I had cupping done when I hadbronchitis, very strong
bronchitis, and they did that onmy back and it loosened up the
phlegm.
(14:32):
It loosened it up and I wasable to cough.
You know that helps.
So yeah, cupping has its place,for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And acupressure.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Acupressure is fine.
It's a different form ofacupuncture.
The only difference is youcannot.
You have only 10 fingers andthere are points on the body
that are combined, like, forexample, from the shoulder it
goes down to your leg.
There are several points youcannot do with acupressure, but
you can go to certain points onthe body to start regulating.
(15:01):
You know, and people are needlephobic, some people you may
start with acupressure.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I have found acupuncture actually to be
pretty effective for labor pains.
Oh yeah, when a woman's havinglabor, oh yeah, yeah.
And there are some points toofor labor, to induce labor,
right, but you have to very muchavoid when somebody's pregnant,
you know.
Right, that's right.
A couple of others acupuncturewhat they do on the ears.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, I mean the ear is a microcosm of the human body
and organ system and I've seenpeople from Korea Korean
acupuncture.
They work just with the ear.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah right.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
And it is like a fetus upside down.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So down by your earlobe, inside the ear.
You better be careful thatcould be the brain.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Right, right, right and the outer lining is.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Then you know the skeletal from the spine.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So you know, yeah, you can do a lot, and a lot of
this is done when people haveaddiction issues there are
protocols plain for that?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
And smoking cessation ?
Yeah right, exactly A couple ofothers.
Let's see what about.
Sometimes they connectelectricity to the needles.
I have done that a lot.
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Very much so it works very well A lot in pain
management.
I did that a lot when peoplecame in with back pain or
shoulder pain or whatever.
And I would choose my pointsand yeah, clip these electrodes
onto the needle and then youknow it works very well onto the
needle and then you know itworks very well.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
And then finally some acupuncturists actually inject
some fluids into the acupuncturepoint.
Yes, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
That you can do in Alabama, but there's an
injection therapy which I havecertification for in Florida.
You can do that, you know.
So, yeah, this is usuallysometimes.
There are herbals, you know,and they are very effective
because they immediately hit,you know, the bloodstream, okay
well, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
So when a patient presents to you with a certain
set of symptoms in medicalhistory, et cetera, how do you
evaluate that patient to decidewhat kind of treatment plan they
need?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
From the minute he steps into my office.
You observe a patient by hisposture, by his demeanor, by his
complexion, by his voice youknow, and then you ask for the
chief complaint and said okay.
So let's say somebody says ohman, I've had diarrhea for about
six months or something likethat, and they've tried
(17:20):
everything else, but it didn'twork out.
So, number one, you ask whetherthere was any kind of situation
when that started, becausethere's a body-mind connection
that is very much respected inChinese medicine.
So and then you hear that, thenyou ask about tastes.
What kind of food do you prefer, you know?
(17:40):
And if it's sweet, well youknow there's a spleen thing.
If it's a lot of salt, it's akidney.
If it's sour, pickles andwhatever it's liver.
So there are certain tastesassociated with the organs and
emotions as well.
So a person who's very pensiveall the time can be because of a
(18:02):
spleen issue or the pensivenesscan also influence the spleen.
So this is, you know, this is ainterdependent kind of situation
and that I put together andlook at the tongue, the tongue
is also a microcosm of theorgans and the quality of the
(18:22):
tongue, the thickness of thetongue, the color, you know, the
coating is very important andbased on all of that and pulses.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
And pulses right, yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
You know left and right pulses.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Well, tell me about the five elements, the wind,
water, all that kind of stuff.
What's that all about?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Okay, that is a five element theory that came after
the Yin and Yang theory, andthere are a lot of practitioners
who practice just that.
Okay, so there are fiveelements the heart is the fire
element, the stomach spleen isthe earth element, the lung is
the metal element, the kidney isthe water element and the liver
(19:01):
is the wood element.
And they can interplay.
They can either insultsomething For example, if you
have a liver that's overacting,it can overact on stomach spleen
.
So that's why you don't justtreat the stomach or the spleen,
you also consider where does itcome from?
So it's a cycle, it's a circle.
(19:22):
There are circles ofinteractions within the body
that are respected in this kindof medicine, you know, and if we
, yeah, if you want to compareit with Western medicine, well,
I must say they have more anisolated view of the body.
You know, they say okay, that'sa gallbladder issue, boing, I'm
going to give you somemedication make the gallbladder
work.
Well, hello, it may not be justthe gallbladder.
(19:44):
You know there could be otherorgans involved that contribute
to this.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
They're all connected , aren't they Margaret?
Yeah, of course yeah, we're awhole being.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And you know, since we're on that tangent, there is
something they say in Chinesemedicine you peel an imbalance
like an onion.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So you go from?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
what are your symptoms to where could this
originate?
Okay, and then we talk aboutthe ben and the biao.
The ben is the trunk, that isthe root problem, and then the
branches, the symptoms, whichare not isolated either, you
know.
So then you come to treatmentmodalities and you think wait a
(20:24):
minute, what is the mostprominent issue here?
Am I going to treat the rootcause right away or do I treat
the main symptom first,depending on the gravity of the
symptom?
So that's another aspect.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
It reminds me of the functional medicine approach,
where a patient may come in withanxiety, depression, but at the
end of the day it might be agut issue due to the gut-brain
connection, and same thinggut-brain connection and same
thing gut-skin connection, thatkind of stuff.
So yeah, we're always thinkingof what's the root cause of the
problem and it sounds likethat's very similar to what
y'all are thinking.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So let's say somebody comes to see you and you do
your evaluation and you decidethey need to get a needle
treatment.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Describe an actual treatment session for start to
finish, what's the patient goingto experience there?
The first thing.
I let them talk talk about theirown issues.
Then I observe them and, as Isaid, you make your diagnosis
pulse and whatever.
You put this all together andcome and you head up with a
possible treatment plan.
The patient goes laying down onthe table, you have a relaxing
atmosphere, you have relaxingmusic playing, you don't have
(21:29):
bright lights shining on thepoor guy.
So you know it's an intimatelike in a little shell.
You know that's how the patienthas to feel.
And then you swap the pointsyou know, with alcohol and then
you take your needles and youinsert them accordingly.
And I always treat the mindwith the body.
(21:51):
So that always goes together,always calm the mind or whatever
.
And needles people aresometimes afraid of them.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
They are yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And then I say, okay, I'm showing you what it does.
And I put a needle in me, youknow.
And I said, look, this is all.
And before they know it, I said, let me just try this on you
and you can tell me if you feelpain or not.
And they don't feel pain.
I mean most of them don't feelpain, you know so.
And then the needles are justlike little whiskers, I mean
they're needles, they're hairthin.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, really, you know For sure.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
And you know for sure , and they're sterile.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, that's actually .
I think people are concernedabout two things.
Number one are the needlesterile?
Number two does it hurt?
And I think you've answeredboth of those yeah, no they're
sterile.
Okay, good, well, all right,wonderful.
Yeah, I remember your room,margaret.
When you came into the officeyou set up the room and, oh my
gosh, it was just such arelaxing place.
You had these beautifulpaintings on the wall, you had
this relaxing music.
Sometimes I would come and I'dsee the patient and you had the
(22:45):
warming lamps right.
So, you did everything you couldto put that patient at ease and
make it a pleasant, positiveexperience.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Sometimes, you know, at the end of the treatment I
would also work on them manuallya little bit you know, work on
their head or whatever, toreally just bring them back,
Because some people phase out,you know, so you've got to bring
them back and then when they'represent, full present in their
body, then you know they'reready to go.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, Are there any major safety considerations like
, for instance, puncture alongwith the needle or those kind of
things?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well, you have to be careful how you insert them, you
know I mean you cannot, youknow, go perpendicular in an
area where you get apneumothorax for example, you
know.
So you've got to know yourtechniques rather well, sure you
know?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think acupuncture is one of the
things that's really safe andeffective in almost no downside
effects if used properly.
But if you get somebody whodoesn't know what they're doing,
then, yeah, that could end upin trouble.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yeah, that's why you need to have training, a lot of
training.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
And, for instance, you're talking about doing it on
a pregnant woman.
That could be a problem, inducepremature labor, or somebody
had like a coagulopathy and theycouldn't do it.
They would be bleedingprofusely.
So yeah, there are certaincontradictions and safety things
, but that's why you do thetraining right.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
But you ask people if they're, for example, on
Coumadin or blood thinners.
You know, so you've got to makesure that they are not.
Or if they are, then you needyou know, not as deeply as so.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
So in your practice, did you often work in
conjunction with other healthcare providers, or was it just a
whole separate?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
thing.
It very much depends, you know,I mean, for example, you and I
have worked together on certainpatients.
Correct and that worked very,very well.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
If you have a physician who's open-minded but
then some think it's voodoo work.
Acupuncture is voodoo work.
I mean, those people can't eventalk, correct?
I don't try to convince thembecause they're not convincible,
unless I tweet them and theyrealize something, but often
that's not the case.
Realize something, but oftenthat's not the case.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, I think historically, most regular I'll
call them regular doctors arenot particularly accepting of
alternative therapies likeacupuncture.
But I think it's changing.
I think people are becomingmore accepting, especially as we
have more patient demand.
I think people are looking foroptions and so, yeah, I think,
especially in certain fields,like I know, sometimes your
(25:07):
fertility doctors will work withan acupuncturist because the
data shows clearly that it helps.
You have somebody do an IVFwith or without acupuncture and
the data clearly shows it worksbetter with acupuncture.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Absolutely, and I always told everybody I got a
lot of women pregnant.
There we go.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
If I recall, there was a little board of pictures
up on your wall of women who hadbabies, because of you.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And those were women who could not have babies
otherwise.
Yes, and so that was reallycool.
What about Margot the issue ofregulation of acupuncture by,
say, local authorities like theState Board of Medicine or
whatever?
What's the issue there?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Well, it depends on the state.
For example, Alabama doesn'teven require licensure.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I was just surprised.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
In Florida they are very, very strict and you have
to keep your practice in acertain security level and you
get inspected every year and youknow you have to have a clean
field.
You cannot have the dirtyneedles right next to the clean
field, and so on.
Yeah, so then there are otherstates California you can do
(26:15):
much more than we could even doin Florida, and it's longer and
more intense education.
So it depends on the state.
It's not federally regulated.
In in florida I was on theboard.
It was the board of what is it?
Gosh medicine?
Yeah right, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And here, not in alabama, yeah, yeah, you know
right.
So as a result, especially instates like alabama, where it's
just not regulated at all, Iwould imagine there are people
out there doing acupuncture thatreally are not qualified to do
it, and so how does somebody goalong and find a qualified,
reputable acupuncturist in theirarea?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
If they are nationally N-C-A-O-M if they're
nationally qualified.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
How does a patient know that?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
They can look it up.
Every acupuncturist has to havetheir license number and if
they don't have a license oreven their national
qualifications, so they can lookfor that.
However, there are also now alot of chiropractors.
Some of them do acupuncture,but they do pain management, and
(27:22):
there is something about it,you know, I mean they don't do
the system.
But I mean they can buychannels.
They can do that and they'recalled ashi points.
They're points, they are justnot on any channel necessarily.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
They go by paint pattern.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
But that seems to sometimes work, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Exactly, and I think there are a lot of actually
physical therapists out therenow doing what they call
needling right.
Right yeah, Dry needling right.
Right, yeah, dry needling, dryneedling, and it seems like
again, that seems to help somefolks.
So we're all for whatever helpspeople.
Are there any particular areasof acupuncture research that
seem to be exciting these days?
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, number one.
They have definitely found outthat fertility issues that
definitely works Anxiety.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it works perfectly well
with anxiety.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there are and there havebeen studies, but they are
studies from a Western point ofview.
They're making measurements andsaid oh, it's his stomach 36,
which is a tonification point.
I see there's, you know,chemistry going on after you
insert that point.
So, yeah, it's more integratedby now in several aspects of
(28:32):
Western medicine.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
You know it is, and I think in Western medicine we're
finding more and more researchon it, with controlled studies.
I look at acupuncture, noacupuncture and even what we
call sham acupuncture.
Why don't you explain that tous, margot?
What sham acupuncture is?
Sham acupuncture, for example'tyou explain that to us, margot?
What's sham acupuncture is?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Sham acupuncture is for example.
It's just like ashy points.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
You don't understand the physiology of the body.
That is a difference too youknow, An acupuncture physician.
It's basically a medical viewof the body from a Chinese point
of view you know so.
But if you don't understand themechanism within the body, you
know, yeah, I can do shamacupuncture.
You know, I have a headache boy.
I put a needle in, but that maynot really do the trick, you
(29:13):
know.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
So, speaking of some of those studies they're doing,
for instance, in 2018, a studycame out in the journal Pain and
found that acupuncture waseffective with the treatment of
chronic musculoskeletal pain,headaches, osteoarthritic pain
and yeah.
So that was kind of cool andthey found in the study it could
not be explained solely byplacebo effects.
Some people say, well, it'sjust placebo, doctor.
(29:34):
No it's not.
No, it's not Also for nausea.
That's kind of anotherinteresting one.
The National Cancer Institutedid a clinical trial showing
that acupuncture was effectivetreatment for nausea, and that's
nausea from morning sickness,from pregnant women, from
travelers post-operative nausea,chemotherapy-induced nausea all
kinds of nausea and seasickness.
(29:55):
Exactly exactly.
So did you find it effectivefor that?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yes, very much so.
Acupuncture doesn't treatcancer, but it treats.
You know, the side effects oftherapy, Right, you know so, and
that is very, very effective.
You know, we had this onepatient.
She had pancreatic cancer,Remember, yeah, yeah, sure, and
she lived another two years.
You know, I mean against allodds.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And she combined treatments from you with
acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
And we've had a wonderful time with this woman?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yes, and also other digestive issues like
constipation, diarrhea,irritable bowel syndrome,
Crohn's ileus and gallstonedisease.
All those things can respond toacupuncture, right?
Yeah, Good, good, good.
What about migraines?
Margot, have you had much luckwith migraines?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yes, I had manually and with acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Absolutely but you do it right on the onset, once the
migraine has come into fullforce.
It's very difficult.
But when you feel an onset andI have friends they said, margot
, come over.
I think I'm going to get amigraine and there are points on
the skull that help it, youknow, and then you can anchor it
with always distal points.
There are always distal pointsand points right on.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So, to be clear, if somebody has a headache, you
could actually be doing a pointon their foot right.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, if it's a called-bedderchannel.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
You take a called-bedder point?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Because you've got to think channels.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
You can't be punctual .
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Exactly, exactly.
So, yeah, there was, let's see.
The American MigraineFoundation, in 2017, did a
systematic review of 22 clinicaltrials that found that
acupuncture can reduce thefrequency of headaches in people
with migraines by 50% or more,with up to 59% of the patients,
and the effect can last morethan six months.
So, yeah, I think that'scertainly a strong endorsement
of acupuncture for migraines.
(31:36):
What about fibromyalgia?
Did you have much luck withthat?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I mean, I had a person who had that and she had
to come at least three times aweek Because it's such a wide
range.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know what caused fibromyalgia and many different
things can cause it as well.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
But there was a clinical study on that and they
found that it was effective forpain, quality of sleep and also
just overall quality of life.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
And then let's see menstrual cramps.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
How about stuff like that?
Oh yeah, Wonderful.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, yeah, good, good, yeah, yeah, good, good.
Yeah, that works rather well.
Or any period, painful period,you know if somebody for example
, comes because they havepainful, their period is not
correct.
Then you ask about the flow.
Is it bright blood, is itclotted blood, whatever?
And then, dependent on that,you needle these people, you
know, and there are points onthe leg, there are points on the
(32:26):
abdomen, you know, there areall kinds of points that are in
combination, help that.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, and, as my listeners know, one thing I hang
my hat on is being what I callevidence-based Margot.
Yes, in 2018, there was areview of 60 randomized
controlled trials that foundthat acupuncture was effective
in reducing menstrual pain andrelated symptoms.
So there, again Fabulous.
I'm so glad you did thatresearch.
Well, you are, because I thinkthat you know women are often
just left to suffer with thingslike menstrual pain and stuff
(32:52):
like that and there's no needfor that, and they could come
and see you and you would givethem great relief.
And so also asthma is anotherinteresting thing.
Did you have much luck withthat, margot?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
You ask a patient, okay do you have a problem
inhaling or do you have aproblem exhaling, and there are
different mechanisms, and thenyou treat accordingly, because
there are different organsinvolved.
There's a different qideficiency involved.
And so there's a kidney andthere's the lung.
So kidney anchors the breath.
The lung should bring it down,but it also has to exhale.
And when there's a qideficiency, well, the lung is
not working.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Yeah, there was a systematicreview and meta-analysis of
randomized, sham-controlled andplacebo-controlled trials and
they found that acupunctureappeared to improve quality of
life, breathing symptoms, asthmacontrol and reduce frequency of
flare-ups.
So, yeah, that's pretty cool.
What about the allergicrhinitis?
You know, like a runny nose?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh yeah, you can do that.
Wonderful herbs and theirpoints you use.
I mean, yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, another 2022 systematic review and
meta-analysis found thatacupuncture is effective in
treating allergic rhinitis inadults, so I wanted some good
evidence for that.
And lastly, let me ask youabout blood pressure.
Did you actually ever useacupuncture to reduce blood
pressure?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yes, absolutely, there are points on the arm
especially, yes, you can, andit's also the mind Right,
exactly Always the mind.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh, so much of blood pressure is due to.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Anxiety or whatever.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Stress and anxiety Right right Makes your heart
pump faster.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Stress measures yes, stress managing.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So randomized prospective trial published in
the journal Circulation, whichis a huge journal, and they
concluded that acupuncturesignificantly lowers blood
pressure.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Isn't that?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
wonderful, yeah.
And I think sometimes you knowwhen you go to see your doctor
and he or she checks your bloodpressure is high, they get out
their script pad and write meds.
But you know there's so manyother things you can do.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
The herbs you mentioned.
You can do meditation, you cando Qigong, acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, exactly when I opened my mind to alternative
therapies.
I always tried to beevidence-based and I think the
evidence is solid thatacupuncture can really help a
lot of these folks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Any other major success storiesthat you would like to share
with us?
I always love these anecdotesthat people have, and some of
(35:03):
them are, just like I said, thelady with psoriasis.
That was remarkable.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
It was amazing.
Yeah, that was a wonderfulsuccess story?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Any other great stories you'd like to?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
share.
Yes, yes, yes, there was a lady, a heavy set lady.
She came in, she had sciaticaforever.
And you know what?
Maybe by luck, I don't know why.
I inserted the needles which Ifound.
I put her on her stomach andthen there were certain needles
you can insert.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Man.
She got off the table and shehad no pain For real.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And she said I don't know what you did.
She never had to come back, shewalked out of there.
I was fascinated.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
And, to be clear, that's not to imply that
everybody with sciatica is goingto have a relief.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
No, no, no.
For some people it doesn't workat all.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
But for others it can be miraculous.
And again, so you havesomething that might help, is
not sciatica.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Usually it takes longer time.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Some people need several treatments.
The only problem is the costfactor you know I mean insurance
doesn't cover it.
If insurance covered it itwould not be so costly.
It's a horrible thing.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
So that's why I always kept my rates affordable,
because I really wanted to helppeople and not get rich of it.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right, but then insurance will pay for meds for
the rest of her life and she'llsuffer with addiction from the
pain, meds et cetera, but theywon't pay for acupuncture.
It's kind of crazy.
Now you mentioned she was alittle bit overweight.
What about acupuncture forweight loss?
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I did that on somebody and did it Ear A lot of
ear points.
Yeah, there's a hunger point.
There are different points inthe ear.
You can just tweet it by theear, yeah the ear.
Are there any major what I callmisconceptions about
(36:38):
acupuncture you'd like toaddress?
You know, all I can say ispeople.
I hear people often say well, Iguess it's all in your head.
You got to believe it in orderfor it to be successful.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
I said no.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
A lot of people were questioning this and they walked
out, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
That's right and that's why I love these what I
call sham acupuncture studies.
In fact, the concept of sham isreally interesting.
There was a situation years agowhere people would come in with
like osteoarthritis of the kneeand the orthopedic surgeons
would do surgery.
But then they got to where theyactually tried a bunch of sham
surgery.
In other words, they would cutthe knee and then close it back
(37:06):
up and they never did anything.
Well, guess what the shamsurgery patients did?
Just as good as the realsurgery patients.
So I think it's worthwhile tokind of sort out, you know, is
there a placebo effect here?
If there's not, and try to beevidence-based about it.
But yeah, this is not somethingthat's just kind of an
all-in-your-head type of thing?
Speaker 3 (37:21):
No, it's not.
And you know what?
A lot of lower back pain isemotionally induced, or your
stress around your shoulders, Imean there's a lot of emotional
impact you have to respect thatand treat it that way.
So you go both ways.
You're going to treat the issueand then you're going to treat
the emotional part.
So calm the mind.
We always say that.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
So is there any particular advice you'd like to
give to a patient who might beconsidering acupuncture for the
first time?
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, I would say be careful whom you are choosing,
look at their education and thensee if you personally relate to
that person.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
That's huge that is really important.
Really important right.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
You know, I mean you're not just somebody.
Yeah, you got to relate to thatperson, you got to feel you
trust that person and you cantalk to that person you know,
and that's important.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, there was a guy in town years ago was doing
acupuncture and I had somefeedback from patients.
I hear that he was actuallyquite good, but feedback from
patients that his office wasfilthy.
So to some people that's realturnoff and so, yeah, you have
to go and kind of check it out,see how you feel about the whole
, the practice, the provider,and is it a good vibe for you?
(38:26):
And what about for, say, ayoung person, Margo, or some
50-year-old like you who mightbe thinking about getting into
acupuncture as a career?
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Well, I didn't.
It's never too late, I must say.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
And it was a satisfying career.
Yeah, I mean yeah, I did it at54 years old and I think if you
work it right and you build yourpractice, you can make a good
living doing acupuncture yes,you can.
Absolutely, and it's certainlya lot less stressful than being
an ER doc like I was for 20years.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Oh God, no, I can't even imagine that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Well, all right then.
Well, anything, any lastthoughts you'd like to share
with us, Margot?
Speaker 3 (38:58):
No, it was just such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
It's good to see you again.
I want to have you come onboard and take that over, and
(39:22):
you did such a fabulous job.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know what here.
Talking about relations, youknow how you feel about a person
.
I made a cold call when.
I lived in Florida and I said,make men I made a cold call when
I lived in Florida and I saidMeg Menkling, that sounds kind
of interesting.
So I talked to you and yourvoice vibrated and said, well,
that may be something.
It was an immediate.
Well, let's give this a try.
And then we met twice again,and said okay, boom.
No big contracts, Come on in andthat was the wonderful way to
(39:47):
do it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It was.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I cherish those years very, very much.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
You brought such a wonderful energy to the office
and to the patients, and so itwas great.
I've been your victim manytimes.
I've had acupuncture by you,I've had your massage, and your
craniosacral therapy was great.
Yeah, that works well, I knowthis show is not about that, but
just say a little bit of wordabout craniosacral therapy.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Well, I mean the craniosacral fluid, the spinal
fluid is rhythmic, so it goes upthe spinal cord and then it
widens, and then it compressesand widens and compresses.
So you try to regulate that.
You can find actuallyimbalances by checking on the
flow of the spinal fluid.
So that is a process youdevelop a feel for and then you
(40:32):
do a lot of cranial workactually I did that a lot with
other people and you want thefascia also to relax, to feel a
correspondence to where you'reworking on, and when that
releases you feel it.
You know you feel a release andit has been amazing Lots of
somato-emotional release where?
But you have people that arestuck with their emotion and
(40:53):
they start bursting out cryingforever and it's a wonderful.
I mean, yeah, it's a wonderfulrelease you know, so I've had
that.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
You know it was very good.
Yeah, well, all right then.
Well, margot, once again, thankyou so much for coming down and
doing the podcast with us today.
It's great to see you.
But that'll about do it forthis episode of Wellness
Connection MD.
I hope the episode was helpfulto you in some way.
After all, that's why we do theshow.
But don't forget to check usout on mcminnmdcom, where you
(41:20):
can find a connection to all ofour podcasts and where you can
also access Wellness MD blog, aswell as lots of other great
health and wellness information.
You can also find there all ofmy social media links.
But You'll find there all of mysocial media links.
But please help the podcastgrow by telling your friends and
family about us and please takea moment to review us on iTunes
.
These reviews really do help usout.
If you want to reach out to meby email, you can do so at
drmcminn at yahoocom.
(41:41):
And, in closing, thank you somuch for listening.
This is Dr McMinn signing out.
Take care and be well.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Thank you, good tea to all of you.
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