April 7, 2025 • 56 mins
John Eldredge and pastor, author, and podcaster Jon Tyson continue a wide-ranging conversation on the unique challenges and opportunities of this particular cultural moment. Discover how to counter the fog of chaos and unbelief, why a rightly oriented heart is the key to everything, what's fueling the current revival among young adults, the important distinctions between sociology and spirituality, and why so many men's lives are falling apart...and what to do about it.
Show Note: Jon Tyson's weekly podcast—Church of the City New York Podcast—is available wherever you get your podcasts.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Tyson (00:00):
Having a rightly ordered and oriented heart Yes.
(00:04):
Every day stops chaos evenhitting my week. Yes. And I
think Yes. I think that may bemaybe the most important thing
you can do.
Because the truth is we have solittle agency over the world.
That's why it produces so muchanxiety. Right. You unless you
unless you work in Washington,what can you really do about
(00:27):
Washington? Not that much.
Right. You can do everythingabout the orientation of your
heart towards Jesus. Yep. Youhave total agency over your
inner life with God. And thehelp of the Holy Spirit.
Yes. So I think one of even thestarting points in dealing with
(00:47):
the anxiety and the chaos isrealizing the best you can do
everything about the mostimportant thing, which is you
can orient your heart and getthe chaos out of your
John Eldredge (00:57):
own spirit. Everybody, welcome back to the
Well at Heart podcast. We are inpart two of a conversation with
John Tyson, a new friend of minewho we're kind of just
discovering so many similarloves and passions from the,
kind of the apologetic of desireto the power of prayer to just
(01:22):
loving seeing people come toJesus. Yeah. Yeah.
There's a lot of kinship, from aguy that lives mostly in the
wilderness to a guy who lives inManhattan, New York. So I think
you're gonna enjoy part two.Probably makes sense to listen
to part one if you haven't, butyou don't have to. You can just
jump in this week if you want.Before we all do that, let's
(01:46):
take a moment and we're going totake our pause.
And I just want you to tune inright now. What is your
condition? As you come into thismoment, as you're listening to
us, wherever you are in theworld, just tune in. What is my
condition right now? And noticeyour body.
(02:08):
Are you tense? Are you kind ofholding things? Notice your
breathing. Is it short and kindof shallow breaths? You see,
that's all.
All that is what the world doesto us on a daily basis. And we
take these moments to just letit go. Let it all go. Okay. So
(02:30):
let's pause together.
Let me just say, Jesus, I I do.I need I need to come into a
moment of stillness in aconstantly buzzing world. I need
stillness. Bring me intostillness for a moment. Help my
(02:52):
soul and my mind to get still.
I need to just calm down alittle. And I need to release
things to you I'm I'm alreadycarrying, work, people, school,
loved ones, something you justheard on the news. I just need
to release all of that. And andthe basis of this is first Peter
(03:15):
five, verse seven, cast all ofyour cares upon the Lord because
he cares for you. So let's dothat right now.
And as you do that, just noticeyour body. Are you able to relax
a little bit as you do this?Notice your breathing. Are you
able to breathe a little deeper?Let's take a moment.
(04:05):
Thank you, God. Thank you. Yes.Breathe into me now. Breathe in
to me.
Your presence reorient me toyour presence and how your
presence reorients me toeverything else. Amen. So I want
(04:26):
to use what just happened for mein the pause Okay. As an entree
into this because it wasclearly, clearly from God. I was
having a hard time tuning in atall to the presence of God,
which is not my norm.
You know, just like any otherhabit as you cultivate your
(04:48):
ability to cycle or run or, youknow, prepare meals or give a
talk, you know, comfort a childas you, as you cultivate your
ability to be with a three yearold, you get better at it.
Right? Okay. So I have a deeplycultivated soul that is able to
tune pretty quickly into thepresence of God with me. I
(05:11):
couldn't I couldn't do it duringthe pause.
And so instead I just ask, I'mlike, what is jamming this? What
I feel jammed. I feel like inwartime, you know, the first
thing they always go after iscommunications, take out
communications. Yeah, the guythe guy you did not want to be,
(05:33):
you know, in any of any of therecent wars, you know, with
radio sets and that sort ofthing is the guy with the
antenna. Right?
In the platoon. It's like takethat guy out because he has the
radio. Right? Okay. So I'msitting in a moment trying to
pause.
I'm not finding God. And so Ijust tune in. I may, I am able
to ask, what is this? This feelslike jamming. And, and Jesus
(05:58):
goes, yeah, it's, it's chaos anddistraction.
I'm like, but why? And he said,over calling and purpose. Now
last night you and I had a veryimportant conversation around
calling and purpose. It wasvery, very deep, very, very
important. And we were kind ofcoming into awareness of, man,
(06:21):
there's an awful lot set againstany person's story with God.
Yep. Right? The the true storyhe has for you versus the
version the world wants to keepgiving you. I think that's
informative for part two. Ithink that's what's going on for
a lot of us is the chaos of theworld and the pace of things and
(06:46):
the just the jamming ofcommunications, find, you know,
hard to access God.
Not just because they're justtrying to be irritating, they,
meaning the enemy's forces, butjust but at a higher level of,
we don't want you to see whatGod's doing with clarity and
(07:06):
what your part is with clarity.Right?
Jon Tyson (07:09):
That kind
John Eldredge (07:09):
of felt like that's a lot to get out of a
twelve second pause. But that'swhat was going on. It's like, I
can't find you. It's chaos. Whyis there chaos?
It has to do with calling. Andso I think that kind of sets us
up for our conversation today.
Jon Tyson (07:27):
Yeah. Yes. I I we were you said something
yesterday that this morning.It's all a giant blur, mate.
Time time is Yeah.
Whatever it is. Yeah. You saidto not teach people about how to
really live with god and fightin our relationship with him to
(07:47):
get that clarity, to get thatconnection, is spiritual
malpractice. I was like, gosh.You think about how many people,
have lawsuits over various formsof malpractice.
It's somebody's job, and they'reentrusted with training and
(08:08):
authority to to do a thing tohelp you, and then they fail to
do it or they do it wrongly. Andyour take was we are we are
committing spiritual malpracticeby not helping people realize
there's an enemy that wants toblock communication. Yes. You're
in a war, so it's wartimecommunication, not just
peacetime communication. Yeah.
(08:29):
And people aren't talkingseriously enough. And the result
of that is you end up blamingGod for the work of the enemy.
That's so true. God is distant.Where is he?
How can and it's it's not god.It's the enemy. Yeah. And Yeah.
Establishing that ongoingorienting ourself is, I think,
really, really important.
John Eldredge (08:48):
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's yep.
That's right. It is malpractice.Down at the at the most
practical possible level. Okay.So what do I do about this?
You know, I've I've got jamminggoing on, which is really
interesting because Dave, ourengineers, we always we always
(09:09):
pray before, you know, we tryand consecrate what we do and
and we listen and ask Godbecause we want this to be
helpful to our We're not just inhere to kind of riff and what
are you saying, God? What arewhat do our people need? And we
felt like the word wasorientation and then what's in
the way. And and then Dave, ourengineer says, I feel like it's
(09:31):
chaos. I feel like chaos.
So, you know, New York where youpastor a church and you've been
for twenty years. Twenty years?
Jon Tyson (09:40):
Yes. Twenty years. Okay. Happy anniversary. Thanks.
John Eldredge (09:45):
It's like an espresso version of the world.
Jon Tyson (09:49):
Yeah. It is intense.
John Eldredge (09:50):
Yeah. It's an intensified version of
everything, whether it'ssexuality or ambition or or
cultural excellence or even, youknow, culinary excellence.
Right? It's it's just like anespresso version.
Jon Tyson (10:10):
Chaos? 100%. One hundred %, mate. There's so part
of the challenge is that on a ona basic level, things have sped
up so quickly that that produceschaos. You know, you remember
those games where the old gameswhere there's one thing coming
(10:32):
at you and you can hit it, andthen there's two things and you
can hit it, and there's threeand then you square.
And there's so many you just getoverwhelmed. That's the so part
of it is just modern life. NewYork is like that's the pace of
life, and it's the amount ofpeople. You are just confronted.
All you need do is get out ofthe city for a bit, and you get
back in, and you're immediatelyassaulted by sensual sense sense
(10:55):
sensory.
John Eldredge (10:56):
Yes. It's almost different.
Jon Tyson (10:57):
All of those. All at once. Yes. Like, I just saw Yes.
30 things I'll never see in aneveryday life in another place.
So, yeah, there's there'sdefinitely that sense. And then
you can go from one neighborhoodto another neighborhood, and
it's a totally different kind ofchaos in a three minute walk.
And if you walk, you know,several blocks, you're exposed
(11:18):
to completely differentideologies, different sociology,
different spiritual dynamics,different confrontations with
different kinds of people. It'sjust it's everywhere all the
time. So it does feel like that.
So it requires a kind ofrootedness and orientation to be
able to navigate the complexityof the onslaught that's coming
against you. You you don't haveto be in New York to get that.
(11:41):
You can just turn the news on,and you will get that coming at
your heart. You will get highdefinition footage of every
global trauma in bite sizedbleeding components fed to your
heart for news ratings, you canyou can choose that. Yep.
Let alone it just being thruston us. We often choose to allow
(12:02):
that into our life, and it'sdoing tremendous damage.
John Eldredge (12:04):
Yeah. I I I follow some people and some
things on YouTube. And so when Iget on, you get the short reels
and the advert you know, you getthe things that are trying to
get your attention. Right?
Jon Tyson (12:15):
I just I listen. I hate it, but I just pay for
premium just so I'm notassaulted by the ads.
John Eldredge (12:20):
It's a
Jon Tyson (12:21):
time versus assaulting my ass.
John Eldredge (12:23):
Me too. Yeah. Yeah. I went with premium. Yeah.
Get that out of my face. Buteven still, here's what I
noticed. Even still, the thereels and the little tile they
put on them are getting moresensational.
Jon Tyson (12:37):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (12:38):
Because we've got to get an already distracted,
you know, human race who isalready in disorientation. We we
got we got to shout louder andhere's a little bit more drama
or that sort. You know, theshocking thing the president
just said or you won't believethis.
Jon Tyson (12:55):
Yeah. Yeah. The the the clickbait titles and the
algorithms, the research hasshown they they form us over
time towards the extremesbecause it's in some sense like
pornography. It has to get moreand more extreme because people
get numbed and desensitized toit. And so the algorithms and
(13:15):
content makers realize if it'snot more sensational, more
anxious, more fear, more we'vebasically taken the seven deadly
sins and turned them intomarketing strategies for the
human soul.
John Eldredge (13:25):
Yeah.
Jon Tyson (13:25):
So they're always appealing to the the worst of
the flesh. Yeah. And it's very,very hard to fight that.
John Eldredge (13:31):
Yeah. Yeah. So what what we're saying, what and
what we were hearing God say onyour behalf, dear listeners, is
orientation. Orientation is soimportant because part of what
we were also talking about atbreakfast this morning is when
you misdiagnose something,right, you're gonna when you
(13:53):
misdiagnose something, you'regonna misprescribe it. You're
gonna mistreat it.
Right? And so if you just give asociological explanation to
something that actually has aspiritual root to it.
Jon Tyson (14:02):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (14:03):
And part of what we were talking about do you
remember that?
Jon Tyson (14:05):
Oh oh, for the rest of my life.
John Eldredge (14:08):
Yes. Okay.
Jon Tyson (14:10):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (14:13):
Guys blowing their lives up was part of the
conversation.
Jon Tyson (14:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, can I wanna can I say three things?
Yes. Like, you you there's threeways of things.
One one analogy is so when I wasin seminary, I had a professor
who was in the air force. One ofmy just for one class. He was
really good, and we were in DC.The the the cohort was in DC for
(14:41):
this particular series ofmeetings that we had some
military folks. And he talkedabout OODA loops versus ODA
loops and, basically, how pilotswould fly when the planes were a
little slower, which wasobserve, decide, and act.
And they they were moving at apoint where it was the pilot's
felt instincts that enabled himto navigate with safety. But as
jet engines came in, they weremoving at such a spay a speed
(15:04):
where he couldn't trust his ownobservations. So, so they had to
put in a word, went from an odaloop to an oda loop, and the
second o was orientation. Andthat meant you had to look at
the instruments because youcouldn't trust your senses. Wow.
And guys were flying intocliffs. So you've you've heard
these famous analogies where apilot will take someone up, spin
(15:26):
them, and then ask the question,which way is up? And they would
swear on their life that up isabove them, but they're like, if
I did what you said, we woulddrive into the ground right now.
John Eldredge (15:37):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (15:37):
And so you have to rely on the instrumentation. You
have to orient by a source basedin reality outside of your own
experience. And I think in ourmodern world, that's what really
the heart of it is. You cannotorient on culture dynamics. You
can't orient even on humanemotions.
You need something outside ofthe circumstance, timeless
aligned with reality, which isJesus and his kingdom and his
(15:59):
word. Yeah. And in the midst ofthe chaos, you can't just go,
I'm observing what's happening.I'm deciding what to do, and I'm
gonna act. That is just gonna bea cycle of reactivity to anxiety
Yeah.
And fear. You gotta orient inthe middle of it towards
something outside. You gottabreak that pattern in that
cycle. Yeah. So what's thepause?
(16:19):
What's the pause app? It's abrief orientation outside of the
moment and the senses to God andhis word to get you past true
reality and perspective in themidst of any given moment so
then you can decide and act froma kingdom and a peace
perspective, not a fear or, youknow, just a cultural
(16:40):
perspective.
John Eldredge (16:41):
Yeah.
Jon Tyson (16:41):
So that the role of orientation more than ever Yes.
Is the key skill. Yes. Secondthing, we were talking about
sociology versus spirituality.Our sociology has gotten great.
There's so much data and there'sso much research, and the social
sciences have gotten sointeresting. You know, I'm
(17:04):
listening to Malcolm Gladwell'snew book, Revenge of the Tipping
Point right now. I'm like, thisis amazing. It's on how negative
I'm like, this is fascinating.But Malcolm Gladwell's not
asking the question, where isGod and where is Satan in this?
Exactly. And so we have so andin the church, I think, the
(17:25):
churches have tended to be so,not in a godly sense, but an
irresponsible sense,hyperspiritual, that we've
ignored sociology. There'sactually a lot of really good
stuff in sociology diagnosingwhat is happening. But the
problem with only havingsociology is nobody's asking,
are there spiritual forcesbehind this that we can be aware
(17:49):
of? Yeah.
And to me, that's where so manypeople go wrong is they're
orienting only around socialforces, and they're not
orienting around spiritualrealities. Yeah. So let me just
take a shot at an example. We'reworking more than ever. The pace
of life is radicallyunsustainable, and so sociology
(18:10):
is telling us that we need torest.
K? This is telling us you'reworking too much. We're burning
out. We're burning a generationout. Nobody's asking the
question, why would God want usto burn out and have a life
apart from him, and how is theenemy involved in this?
Or is Satan using our fear ofburning out from robbing us from
reaching our full redemptivepotential so we never learn to
(18:32):
work and expand our capacity?We're just reacting to
sociological data and, you know,workplace trends and surveys and
Gen Z in the the workplace, andno one's asking, what's God
doing here, and what's the enemydoing here? And so our
orientation is insufficient atbest because it's not oriented
towards ultimate reality, whichis God, what are you doing in
(18:53):
this generation? Yes. Sameprinciple with our own life.
So I think it's very importantYeah. That we get to the
spiritual roots, not just thesociological analysis. That's
and that's one of my biggesttakeaways. I love sociology.
Every sermon I preach has asociological insight in it.
And I'm so convicted. Like, doesevery sermon have a thoughtful,
(19:16):
prayer filled, genuine attemptat a spiritual diagnosis below
the sociology so people can livein freedom in light of it. The
answer is it will from now on,sir. Good. So that was good.
But then, again so that's twothings. The third thing around
men blowing themselves up andwhy are men failing in this
(19:38):
particular moment. There aresociological forces Sure. That
that Satan can use to do it, butthere are spiritual realities
deeper than that. Yes.
And we're in an epidemic ofmen's lives falling apart. Yes.
And I think a huge part of it isthey have not built an inner
world with God to orient them inlight of the temptation and
(20:02):
forces they're facing inleadership. Yes. And one of the
sad dynamics of my life at thispoint I'm at that point where
where in seminary they warn you,you know, several you know, look
at the guys to your left andright.
Only one of you's got like, I'monly one of you will finish
right. I'm in that. Many many ofmy fathers and mentors are not
(20:23):
finishing well. And I don't
John Eldredge (20:25):
think so sad.
Jon Tyson (20:27):
Oh, it's it's beyond tragic to fail at the finish
line, be disqualified. You'renot disqualified from the grace
of God Mhmm. But to work yourentire life. Now I've had some
mentors who this has been acornerstone for their
transformation, and they aredifferent men because of it.
They've been through a processof grace and redemption and
(20:49):
restoration.
Their marriages are healthy, andtheir kids respect them. I've
seen some beautiful redemption,and I've seen some absolute
dumpster fire tragedies. And yousaid something to me as well,
which is like, it's not becausemen are not orienting the whole
of their lives around the personof Jesus. We've got these
unoriented fragmented parts ofus caught in sin and trauma and
(21:12):
abuse and strongholds. Yep.
And under pressure, those thingsget triggered, and people are
living out of that rather thanintegrating and orienting that
towards the person of Jesus.
John Eldredge (21:22):
Yeah.
Jon Tyson (21:23):
And I have one guy that I respect deeply, had a
profound impact on my thinkingabout apostolic mission. I mean,
probably the most of anyone Iknow who recently had an affair
and blew his life up. And I waslike, I don't think that was
him. Yeah. That's not the guy Iknow making a dumb decision.
(21:43):
Yeah. I don't know where the guyYeah. That I know went, but that
guy's not that guy. Yeah. Youknow?
John Eldredge (21:49):
That's right. Yeah. Yep. And and you can
choose to bring the highlyenchanted worldview
Jon Tyson (21:57):
of
John Eldredge (21:57):
the Bible into the assessment of the situation.
Or you can try and use thelatest psycho stuff, right, and
sociological and, oh, well, youknow, it's the midlife crisis
or, you know, it is, it is, itis a form of spiritual
malpractice that we are notdiscipling people into a very
(22:19):
rich understanding of how Godengages the world, how he
engages the human soul and howSatan does. Right? Because that
that is the fundamental world inwhich we live.
Jon Tyson (22:29):
And
John Eldredge (22:31):
things like YouTube and distraction and that
sort of thing are not, oh, just,oh man. There was a, for a
couple of years, and this isn'ttrue anymore, thank God. For a
couple of years Colorado Springswas the, leading the nation in
(22:51):
youth suicide. Wow. ColoradoSprings.
And you kind of go, man, this isa Why? That's, that's really
bizarre because this isn't, youknow, this isn't The Congo.
This, you're not in some sort ofhorrible war torn, you know, you
see trauma every day. You're notin that. And, and this isn't,
you know, DC, New York, SanFrancisco intensity overworked
(23:14):
over, you know, what is that?
And the conclusion of somepeople that I love was it's the
cell phones. It's their cellphones. It's teenage girls and
cell phones. And I'm like, youare that there is some truth to
(23:35):
that. There is some truth tothat.
But that is so woefullyinadequate when you leave out
the rest of reality. Right? Andwhy do epidemics like this
happen? And what are the spiritsat work in the situation there?
(23:57):
So again, we're not going to,we're not going to reveal lots
of personal detail on on recentevents, but you, you and I are
in a time of prayer and yourphone blows up.
Jon Tyson (24:11):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (24:12):
With data from across the world that it just
like, we're praying againststuff and all of a sudden your
phone's like, Mayday, we'regetting attacked by this over
here kind of a thing.
Jon Tyson (24:24):
Like That that was as that was as I mean, I wish we
could share more details. I II'm not quite sure we can. I'll
I'll try and make the them fullexplanations. It was like this
it was like pushing a button andthen it being answered. We're in
(24:46):
your office.
We're praying through aparticular issue. A serious
issue. Very. Yep. Yeah.
Not morally serious. No.Spiritually serious. Yeah. And
then the very thing which isvery serious that you're praying
about, a spirit that you'relike, there's a spiritual attack
coming against you.
Yes. This is very serious.
John Eldredge (25:05):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (25:05):
And then the very thing you you say, I've just had
god's just revealed to methere's a spiritual attack
against you. Here is the attack.Yes. And in the middle of you
saying that, my phone blows upwhere the very attack that you
said God showed you was comingagainst me just happened to
someone in my family Yeah. Atthe exact same moment.
(25:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Conversation about acertain relational dynamic,
Satan wanting to meddle in acertain relational dynamic.
Yeah. And in the middle of yousaying that Yep.
The exact relational meddlinghappens in the middle of the
very dynamic that you're talkingabout. Get it text. Instant.
Yes. You see, it it would belike saying, would you like more
(25:49):
coffee with a coffee mug?
And I say yes, and you pour itin that fast. It was just I
think it was just such abeautiful reminder. Yes. There
is a spiritual realm behind thisone. Yes.
I think in our fear of theexcess of Pentecostalism that
everything's a demon and you'recasting demons out of
everything, mean, you're like,it's probably not a demon, man.
It's probably just Yeah. You'retired. Yeah. In our overreaction
(26:13):
to that Yep.
And in our hyper connection tothis world because of the speed
of technology and what'savailable, you call it being
discipled by the Internet Yeah.Everything's available
immediately. We've gotten rid ofthe spiritual realm whatsoever.
Yeah. And I think as a result,there's all of these forces
taking shape that need to beaddressed and responded to Yes.
(26:33):
In a godly, responsible, matureway. Yes. And it's spiritual
malpractice to send people intoa war with no tools for war.
There's a quote from one of yourbooks. I I, it's you quote
someone.
We and the world will always beat war. Retreat is impossible.
Arm yourselves.
John Eldredge (26:52):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (26:53):
And I I think about that a lot. Yeah. There is a
spiritual war. Retreat isimpossible. We have to arm
ourselves.
Yeah. And Paul says we are notignorant of his devices, and yet
I think we are in a little bit.
John Eldredge (27:07):
Massively. Massively. Yeah. Okay. So for
example, I'm taking a pause andand I can't find God.
Instead of going to, well,there, you know, there it goes
again. He's he's distant, youknow, like always. Or there it
(27:27):
goes again. I'm just not veryspiritual. I I guess I don't.
I don't really get this. Youknow, I think I'll go back to my
other ways of of findingrefreshment. You know, gonna go
scroll my phone or something.Instead of going there, you go
with what is interfering,possibly, what is possibly
interfering here and dealingdirectly with it, dealing
(27:50):
directly with it. So I thinkthat there is I don't think.
I know. You see on a human levelchaos in the world. Just it's
just it's just chaos.
Jon Tyson (28:02):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (28:04):
And folks, whatever politics you are,
whatever flavor you are, anenormous amount of chaos is
being released in the worldpolitically. Okay. Just it's
just unbelievable. If you onlythink that that is human, you
(28:25):
will never get it out of yourhead and out of your house.
Right?
Because you go, hang on. Thekingdom of darkness thrives in
chaos. It absolutely thrives init. And all of the horrible
things, you know, terrorism andextremism and, and all that,
they all thrive in chaos. Youknow, mob mentality, mob panic,
(28:50):
all that thrives in chaosenvironments.
So we're praying before the showand Jesus says, orientation,
guys. And so we're trying toorient. And what's against it?
Chaos. Okay.
And it was it was like the chaosout there. It wasn't the chaos
in us. It was the chaos outthere. How do we pray? Well, I
(29:13):
guess to immediately go toGenesis one.
You know, God is over the chaoswaters. Right? Hovering. Yeah.
And and he the power of God, thecreation glory of the living
God.
And so to pray something like,you know, we bring the power of
Jesus Christ or we bring theauthority of the Lord Jesus or
(29:36):
we bring the creation power ofthe living God is glory against
all chaos right now that'sinterfering with me and my
prayer time, or that'sinterfering with this
conversation I'm trying to havewith my spouse, or that's
getting into, you know, our kidsyou know, the last school board
(29:57):
meeting was utterly chaotic.What do we do with that? Well,
you correctly diagnose it andthen correctly deal with it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right? Yep. That's truediscipleship.
Jon Tyson (30:07):
Yeah. Yes. Right? I I don't think, you know, we spent
some time praying this morning,and I sort of asked you. You
have a and you've got these arein the back of your books.
These, I mean, these things aresort of written down.
John Eldredge (30:23):
Public. Yeah.
Jon Tyson (30:25):
But I sort of say, do you need to do this every day,
man? And not sort offacetiously. Yeah. Do you you
have to do this every day. It'slike, yeah, there's so much
chaos in our life and in ourwarfare in the modern world.
You can lose your soul in a day,mate. Yep. You can lose your
(30:45):
marriage in a day. You can loseyour kids' hearts in a day.
Yeah.
You the the the speed, the pace,the violence, the acceleration,
it requires us every day to putthose boundaries up and to
reorder our hearts and to one ofthe things that you were praying
in terms of sort of a warfareprayer, renouncing the world.
(31:06):
And I was like, man, I gotta dothat more in New York because
New York is it's it's it's it'sleaking on you everywhere, the
lust of the flesh, the pride oflife. Yeah. You you feel it. And
just like I just I renounce theworld.
I renounce the lusts of theworld. I renounce the spirit of
mammon. I I renounce the needfor recognition. Just and what
(31:28):
you're saying to your heart is Iam ordering and orienting my
heart around God. I'm not evenletting in for a day the seeds
of the chaos of the world.
That's right. The seeds ofgodless ambition, the seeds of
bitterness to get in it and tocreate havoc in my inner man
Yes. My inner woman. Yes. I'mI'm making sure that having a
(31:49):
rightly ordered and orientedheart Yes.
Every day stops chaos evenhitting my week. Yes. And I
think Yes. I think that may bemaybe the most important thing
you can do. Because the truth iswe have so little agency over
the world.
That's why it produces so muchanxiety.
John Eldredge (32:10):
Right.
Jon Tyson (32:11):
You unless you unless you work in Washington, what can
you really do about Washington?Not that much. Right. You can do
everything about the orientationof your heart towards Jesus.
Yep.
You have total agency over yourinner life with God and the help
of the Holy Spirit.
John Eldredge (32:31):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (32:32):
So I think Yeah. One of even the starting points in
dealing with the anxiety and thechaos is realizing the best you
can do everything about the mostimportant thing, which is you
can orient your heart and getthe chaos out of your own
spirit. And then when you showup, people will be drawn around
you. Saint Seraphim says, showup with a peaceful spirit, and
(32:55):
thousands will be saved aroundyou. I think there's something
true to that really.
Smokes. When you show up andyou're like, I I'm not caught up
in that. I'm not driven by that.Yes. Yes.
Peter says, always be preparedto give an answer for the hope
within you. Yeah. Maybe anextension of that verse is
always be prepared to give ananswer for the peace within you
(33:16):
Yes. That we get from orientingour hearts around Christ.
John Eldredge (33:19):
Yeah. Yeah. And so, because you live in a highly
enchanted world, and by highlyenchanted, I mean it it it is
profoundly beautiful andspiritual and populated on both
sides with all sorts ofwonderful and horrifying beings,
which all around us, like theand God and his presence and his
(33:40):
kingdom are working at alltimes. Because that's our
reality, when you wake up in thenight to anxiety, you don't
start with, gosh, I must beanxious. You start with, no, no.
God has not given me a spirit offear, but of power, love, and a
sound mind. Or or quote Romanseight, you've not received a
(34:03):
spirit that makes you a slaveagain to fear, but you've
received a spirit of.
Jon Tyson (34:09):
What a phrase, by the way. What a diagnosis of life
without God. Slaves to fear.
John Eldredge (34:16):
Right? Okay. Yeah. Right. Exactly.
So instead of just going with itand go, well, this just must be,
you know, this is my currentcondition. You don't want to
make agreements with it. Yourecognize, hang on, I live in a
love story set in a world atwar. I live in a highly
populated universe. I'm gonnastart with some of the basic
(34:38):
tools here.
I reject this. You can't have mysoul. I'm not going with this.
Right? And banish it.
Get it out of there. Fry it. Icall down the judgment of
Almighty God on on this fearthat's in our home right now.
(34:58):
Get it out. Okay?
And then and then I'm not tryingto be irresponsible. And then in
the morning, you begin tonotice, Lord, are there
vulnerabilities in me that isgiving anxiety a place in my
life? Are there why? Why doesthat work with me? You know, he
didn't come with pride in thenight.
(35:18):
He came with fear. Why does thatwork with me, Lord? And so then
you do the healthy soul work.Right? And and it yeah.
Is this rooted in childhoodabandonment? Is this rooted in
you you your lack of completelack of faith that your future
is good, that God has a goodfuture for you. You got to do
the soul work as well. Right?And I'm not trying to be
(35:40):
irresponsible with, you know,just kick things out all the
time.
But you start with theimmediate. Do not give this
place.
Jon Tyson (35:50):
That that is so interesting. Again, I think
we're so overreacting to abuses.I can almost hear in my mind
some people saying, well, areyou saying that people don't
need medication? Are you sayingand it's like, look. Not at all.
Not at all? But let's at leastaccess all of this which is
available in the Lord. Yes. Oh.
John Eldredge (36:11):
Oh. Oh.
Jon Tyson (36:11):
Okay. Okay.
John Eldredge (36:12):
This is this so I've been doing a ton of
interviews around the therelease of Experience Jesus,
really. And, by the way, you hadthe funniest reaction to it last
night. You're like, no, no, no,mate. You should have you should
have named it Experience Jesusreally, really, really, really,
really. Okay.
(36:32):
Anyway, so I'm on,interestingly, an Australian
podcast Yeah. Hosted by a lovelyyoung woman and and we're having
a chat and and she's kind ofpushing pretty hard back on the
accessibility of God in hiskingdom because it it can sound
over spiritualized unless it istrue. Yeah. If it is true that
(36:54):
God is the great reality and heshe then shifted in the
interview after I made kind ofmy case for, no, hang on. You
know, She says, wait a second.
Are you it seems like you'resaying that here we have we are
underutilizing God. Yes. ThatGod is an underutilized resource
in our lives. Yes. That here isthis vast resource, and and we
(37:17):
would add to that, you know, thethe everything of his kingdom,
right, that's available to us,that we are not accessing and we
are underutilizing the resource.
I thought that was a beautifulway of describing it.
Jon Tyson (37:31):
Yeah. I I think that that is it. It is an
overreaction. We areunderutilizing as an
overreaction to abuse Yeah.Rather than saying, let's just
rightfully Yes.
Utilize everything that ispossible Yeah. As a first
resort.
John Eldredge (37:45):
Either as either as a reaction to abuse, and
that's for some people, or justbecause you are so oriented by
the materialist world andworldview that you have a
completely disenchanted view ofreality, demystified view of
reality, and and you are just anutter disciple of the Internet
and lost in the current momentof unbelief. Okay. So here was
(38:09):
the big example. This this wasone of the moments where you
went, woah, wait a second. Ihave not thought about this.
So folks have heard us talkabout the Barnet data of one in
two people walking away fromserious faith. And they tried
they tried in their thislongitudinal analysis to go read
the Bible, go to church, youknow, commit it. Some level of
(38:32):
commitment. Yeah. And folks haveheard us talk about quote the
great, you know, falling away.
Could we be in that? Theapostasy and and, you know, I
mean, Australia, it post post,It's so post Christian, it's pre
Christian. Right? As one of myAussie friends calls it, so is
Western Europe, so is so much ofThe United States. And yet God
(38:56):
is working and God is moving andpeople are people are coming to
Jesus.
But as we were praying, I was Iwas describing what a number of
us have seen and experienced inin the fullness of God's
perspective of the world thatalmost like a fog of unbelief.
(39:18):
Sort of chaos and unbelief, likea fog of it has just been
released by the kingdom ofdarkness into the world. We call
it the eclipse of God warfare.And when you when it hits you
and it hit it it had a dear,dear friend of mine recently who
is a very deep lover of Jesus,and she's like, when it comes in
(39:38):
the moment, he's gone. Yeah.
I can't access him. And there'salmost a level of panic of, oh
my gosh, what just happened tome? You go, hang on, hang on.
This fog just rolled through. Wecan get rid of that using the
power of the breath of Godagainst it.
You you had an interestingreaction to that. Do you
(39:59):
remember what it was?
Jon Tyson (39:59):
Yeah. I always so one thing I wanna have a second data
point after that, but it waslike, I talk about all the time.
I care about revival, moves ofgod, god coming in power. Yeah.
And I was like, hey.
We live at a time of decline.And, you know, it's like, you
know, like, we live at a time ofsecularism and blah blah. You're
bantering around these forces.And, embarrassingly, I'd never
(40:24):
thought of wide scale spiritualwarfare that was a spirit of
unbelief or apostasy. Yep.
Is the enemy releasing some sortof spirit of apostasy? Is this a
part of his attack or his plan?And, you know, maybe
deconstruction, which I thinkwe're sort of over
deconstruction, certainly nottrending in my world like it
(40:46):
was. But did that open a doorfor some spirit? Even the the
the obsession with it,everybody's rioting about opens
a door for a spirit to get into.
It's actually that beingmanifest. Yes. And I was like, I
always prayed for God to move ina time of decline, but I never
prayed against a spirit ofunbelief or apostasy. Right. So
(41:07):
I was doing the positive askingYes.
Without rebuking the negative,which may have been a huge part
of the root of it.
John Eldredge (41:14):
It's a huge part.
Jon Tyson (41:15):
Even even when you pray, praying for my friends
struggling with faith Yes.Rarely do we say, you know, the
thief comes to steal and to killand to destroy. Yep. Jesus has
come for fullness of life. Yep.
Even rebuking the thief stealingfaith. Yes. I don't think we've
ever even I wasn't consciouslyprocessing like that. I was
(41:35):
overinvested in a materialistworldview subconsciously.
John Eldredge (41:39):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (41:39):
Yes. And it was just a a divine reminder
John Eldredge (41:42):
and corrective.
Jon Tyson (41:43):
Sociological Second point, you know, the latest Gen
Z data shows they're the mostspiritually open generation in
history. Right. They'respiritually that doesn't mean
gospel.
John Eldredge (41:53):
That's right.
Jon Tyson (41:54):
But it it's showing the failure of secularism as a
narrative. That's right. Youknow, Charles Tatto talks about
the malaise of imminence, whichmeans when you when you get rid
of God, you empty life of wonderor in meaning, and all you're
left with is technique. And itis not big enough to be a true
account of the human experience.You know?
(42:15):
Well, I know you feel likeyou're in love, but listen,
that's just an evolutionaryinstinct biologically urging to
propagate the species later on.It's like, sorry, man. That
doesn't explain Shakespeare.It's and I think a lot of Gen Z
kids are on the other side of itbecause they've been so
John Eldredge (42:31):
Yes. Yes.
Jon Tyson (42:33):
Oriented with tech.
John Eldredge (42:34):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (42:35):
Their rebellion is tech isn't working for my heart.
Yeah. What else is there? Yes. Ithink it really is a moment Yes.
For openness to the gospel.
John Eldredge (42:43):
I do too. I do too. And then you're seeing it.
You guys are seeing
Jon Tyson (42:47):
Oh, if you came to our church on a Sunday night,
we're in the East Village at abig Episcopal church. Okay. See,
I don't know. Seats maybe it's1,300 seats.
John Eldredge (42:56):
Okay. Last week, I said I have a friend who
attends your church. Yeah. Thisweek, I have two friends
Jon Tyson (43:01):
Okay.
John Eldredge (43:02):
Who attend your church.
Jon Tyson (43:03):
Okay.
John Eldredge (43:03):
So it's
Jon Tyson (43:04):
Okay. It's growing. I'm preaching on discipleship
this Sunday. One of the thingspeople always say is, this is so
young, I feel uncomfortable. Andmy response is always, me too,
man.
I'm like an old dude with grayhair preaching to the kids.
Yeah. But isn't it a beautifulmiracle Yes. That in the middle
(43:28):
of New York City Come on. Thisbuilding is full of young people
seeking Jesus.
John Eldredge (43:34):
Come on.
Jon Tyson (43:34):
I I have had strangers walking past who've
said, I've lived in thisneighborhood thirty years. How
are there so many young peoplegoing to church? And I always
really graciously say, you know,the good news is better than we
remember, man. Come on in. Youknow?
Yeah. So, yeah, I definitely seemany young people saying, what
else is there? We've triedeverything. You've had unlimited
access to sex, unlimited accessto technology. We've seen the
(43:57):
term billionaires get completelynormalized.
We've had everything big, large,and immediate, and spectacular,
and it has not worked. Same daydelivery. Yeah. Same day. In New
York, it's same hour, man.
You need it in an hour. They'llget it in an hour.
John Eldredge (44:12):
Yeah. Good
Jon Tyson (44:13):
habits. So people are saying, what else is there? It's
a moment for the gospel. We areseeing this in New York, and
many other places are seeing it.Now I don't wanna devalue older
saints.
Of course, we
John Eldredge (44:23):
need
Jon Tyson (44:23):
mothers, fathers, sages, wisdom. We need middle
aged folks stepping intomentoring. But let's celebrate
John Eldredge (44:30):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (44:31):
That what was the great decline is becoming the
great openness.
John Eldredge (44:34):
Yeah. It is. Yeah. It is. That's absolutely
true.
That's absolutely true. And soso much more we could talk
about. I'm just yeah. Where doyou wanna go? Where do you wanna
go, Jesus, with this?
What a what a lovely thing. Hejust said, my heart for people.
(44:56):
My heart for people. Share alittle bit about your passion
for revival. Like that's a longseated thing in you.
You read about it. You researchit. You look at the old folks.
You Yeah. Like, where's thatcoming from?
Jon Tyson (45:12):
It it comes from three places. First of all, it
comes from my experience ofmeeting Jesus.
John Eldredge (45:19):
Right. Same here. Mine too.
Jon Tyson (45:20):
Yes. I mean, I I I came into something. This was
solid rock youth group atParadise Assemblies of God in
Paradise, South Australia. AndI've really tried to be
objective and analyze this. Isthis just me?
Was this just my internalpsychological state? Was I
(45:41):
primed and ready? Was it no.Mainly no. It was God.
John Eldredge (45:47):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (45:48):
God was there. God was at church. Most people would
go to church and the last personthey expect to meet is God. They
expect good preaching, friendlygreeters, nice worship, but if
God was there they'd beterrified. And I would go to
church, and God was there.
It was peel you off the carpetin the presence of God Church.
It changed my life. It was thekingdom of God's not a matter of
(46:11):
talk but of of power. Yes. I I Iencountered it.
I want everybody to experiencewhat I experienced. A part of
it's personal narrative. And Iwas with a youth pastor. This
was a guy named Paul Gearing.Gears, if you're listening,
hello.
He would take VHS tapes ofrevivals from around the world,
(46:32):
turn them into a revival mashup,get a bunch of youth leaders in
a room, play that video, andsay, God's gonna do it again
through you. And then we'd spendthe rest of the night crying out
to God. It was the undergroundchurch in China shaking under
the power of God in a cave isthe one I remember. Reinhard
Bonke preaching in Africa to amillion people, and and he just
(46:54):
said, this is normalChristianity. What you're seeing
is the this this decline is notnormal Christianity.
Right. So part of it, I was soblessed to come into the kingdom
of god like that. Number two,it's a sovereign theme. Even
when I left the assemblies ofgod, I never left the spirit of
revival that founded You know?If you were to peel my heart
(47:15):
back, I am a there's aPentecostal youth camp in my
heart, mate.
And really enjoying God is whatI'm trying to do. Yes. I asked
the question, you know, what dothey do at camp that you don't
do in real life? How do I neverlose the camp high? It's like,
keep camp culture alive, man.
Really try to do that. So so butso part of it is what I
(47:36):
encountered. Number two, it'sjust a sovereign thing. God has
made it inescapable from me. Ican't get away from it.
It I'm so drawn to it in in ahealthy but unhealthy manner. I
I feel a spiritual deficit if Idon't read about it. I read one
account of revival every day.Read about a revival in in China
(47:58):
about a a these are all peopleyou've mainly never heard of
too. This is not Finney and andWesley and Whitfield.
These these are, like, all theselocal accounts of moves of god.
Yeah. I I I'm reading about EvanRoberts said, for ten or eleven
years, I read about revivalcontinually, and it was in this
(48:19):
way god prepared me for revival.And I find that I think God
wants to do it again in theWest. Orientation.
Exactly.
John Eldredge (48:27):
Exactly. Orientation.
Jon Tyson (48:28):
I am orienting my heart around moves of God. Hey.
There you go. So I'm readingabout it, and it's stirring my
spirit. Smith Wiggersworth, totalk about the French
Pentecostals, used to say, Iwould read the word the word of
god so much and get it so deeplyin my spirit.
It was harder for me to doubtthan to believe. And I would say
I've read so many accounts ofrevival. It is harder for me to
(48:51):
believe it's not gonna happenthan it's gonna happen. Yeah.
It's a sovereign theme I can'tget away from.
And then number three, when youlive in a time of spiritual
decline and then you read thegospels and you read history,
you see such a massive gap whenyou look at at the the church in
the global South and what god'sdoing everywhere else but here.
(49:12):
Yes. At some point out ofspiritual jealousy, you're like,
we want some of that here. Yeah.The gap is so wide between what
the bible and redemptive historyoffer and what we're
experiencing.
At some point, your life big acry begins to emerge in your
life. Close the gap here andnow. And so Yes. I can't get
(49:36):
away from it. Yeah.
What what what are you you'vegot a couple of options when you
look at the chaos and thedecline. You can lament. That's
very appropriate. There's realsadness here. You can retreat
out of self preservation.
That doesn't feel godly. You canbe overwhelmed by fear, or you
can turn all of that intointercession for an intervention
(49:59):
of god.
John Eldredge (50:00):
Exactly.
Jon Tyson (50:00):
And that's what that you wanna talk about
therapeutic, cathartic release?Yeah. Take the anxiety and turn
it into intercession, man. And,god and then what I've learned
more than anything more thananything, it is in the place of
prayer that the heart istransformed. Yes.
You don't get transformation inthe theory of transformation.
(50:24):
Yes. It is in the place ofencounter
John Eldredge (50:26):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (50:27):
That your your enemy love is released. Yes. It's not
released in the agreement of thedoctrine. Yes. It's released in
the presence.
Yes. So all of the fear istransformed into peace in the
presence of God. All of the, youknow, all of the hatred and
anger Yeah. Is turned into lovein God's presence. Yeah.
(50:47):
So there's such a transformativework that happens in the place
of prayer. I know of no otherway to stay sane in the midst of
the chaos Yeah. And to have hopeinfused than to ask God to break
it and move. Yeah.
John Eldredge (51:01):
I'm gonna but I'm gonna I'm gonna tag one more
thing to that because last week,you were talking about your
morning routine. You intake alot of scripture.
Jon Tyson (51:12):
Oh, yeah. I'm yes.
John Eldredge (51:13):
I'm always Well, that's orienting.
Jon Tyson (51:16):
Yeah, man. I've to renew my mind.
John Eldredge (51:18):
Exactly. Today's input's tomorrow's thought life.
You're like, that's orienting.So as we bring this in for a
landing, I want to give ourbeautiful, beautiful followers a
couple things. First off, thechaos doesn't have to overwhelm
you folks.
(51:38):
I would, if you feel like theeclipse stuff coming over the
fogginess, the blurriness, whereis God? I just can't connect
right now. That's not you andthat doesn't have to stay that
way. Okay? I just have to givethat.
That's not you and it doesn'thave to stay that way. You begin
to pray against it. Right? Andand however you just know how to
(52:00):
do, but what I would do is Iwould pray with our friends
right now. We we bring thekingdom of God, which is the
supreme kingdom in in all theuniverse.
We bring the kingdom of God andthe authority of Jesus. And we
bring the power of God'screative glory, just his his
creation glory, Genesis one,against all chaos and the
(52:25):
fogginess that is trying to getin to us and into our worlds.
You can do that. You can dothat. And and we yeah.
The just the breath of almightyGod. It's so beautiful. The
breath of God against all of thecloudiness of intimacy, the
(52:46):
cloudiness of perspective andunbelief against unbelief. I
just renounce unbelief. We areasking you, God, to orient us to
the beauty of your kingdom.
May we be people who are sooriented to the beauty of your
kingdom and your work in theworld. And then the second thing
I want to say is, Lord, give me,give me your heart for people.
(53:11):
Give me your heart for people. Iwant your heart for people. Give
me your heart and then startputting people on my heart.
Go ahead. My neighbors, mycoworkers, family members, give
me your heart for people. I wantto interceding for people to
encounter you because theintimacy I have with you, God,
(53:31):
is is the greatest treasure ofmy life. I want them to have it
too.
Jon Tyson (53:35):
So
John Eldredge (53:37):
no to the chaos, no to the unbelief, no no to
that whole cloud of just theeclipse of God and the eclipse
of perspective. Right? No to it.Breath of God against it. Glory
of God against it.
And then Lord, give me yourheart for people. I want your
heart for people because allthese revival movements begin
with love. Oh, yeah. SomebodyHudson Taylor, right, saying,
(54:00):
give me a thousand lives, I'dstill give it for China. Right?
Like that's just love, That'sthat's not discipline. It's
love. All of these revivalmovements begin with love. So
Lord, give me your heart forpeople. I want your heart for
people and then make it realspecific.
I mean, you know, the waiter andgive me your heart for the cook
and give us your heart for theowner and like, I want to start
(54:22):
praying in that direction. Ithink those two things I hope
people take away from this.Amen. Thanks, John. This has
been super enjoyable.
Mate, what a treat.
Jon Tyson (54:32):
Thanks for having me.
John Eldredge (54:33):
Yeah. Next time I'm in New York.
Jon Tyson (54:35):
Let's go outside. Come on. Okay.
John Eldredge (54:37):
Alright. Thanks everybody for joining in this
week. Hope you enjoyed it too.
Allen Arnold (54:43):
Hey, friends. This is Allan. Thanks for being part
of this week's podcast. Andbefore you rush off into what's
next, we invite you to spendsome time reflecting with God on
what you've heard and on wherehe's leading.
Having a rightly ordered and oriented heart Yes.
(00:04):
Every day stops chaos evenhitting my week. Yes. And I
think Yes. I think that may bemaybe the most important thing
you can do.
Because the truth is we have solittle agency over the world.
That's why it produces so muchanxiety. Right. You unless you
unless you work in Washington,what can you really do about
(00:27):
Washington? Not that much.
Right. You can do everythingabout the orientation of your
heart towards Jesus. Yep. Youhave total agency over your
inner life with God. And thehelp of the Holy Spirit.
Yes. So I think one of even thestarting points in dealing with
(00:47):
the anxiety and the chaos isrealizing the best you can do
everything about the mostimportant thing, which is you
can orient your heart and getthe chaos out of your
John Eldredge (00:57):
own spirit. Everybody, welcome back to the
Well at Heart podcast. We are inpart two of a conversation with
John Tyson, a new friend of minewho we're kind of just
discovering so many similarloves and passions from the,
kind of the apologetic of desireto the power of prayer to just
(01:22):
loving seeing people come toJesus. Yeah. Yeah.
There's a lot of kinship, from aguy that lives mostly in the
wilderness to a guy who lives inManhattan, New York. So I think
you're gonna enjoy part two.Probably makes sense to listen
to part one if you haven't, butyou don't have to. You can just
jump in this week if you want.Before we all do that, let's
(01:46):
take a moment and we're going totake our pause.
And I just want you to tune inright now. What is your
condition? As you come into thismoment, as you're listening to
us, wherever you are in theworld, just tune in. What is my
condition right now? And noticeyour body.
(02:08):
Are you tense? Are you kind ofholding things? Notice your
breathing. Is it short and kindof shallow breaths? You see,
that's all.
All that is what the world doesto us on a daily basis. And we
take these moments to just letit go. Let it all go. Okay. So
(02:30):
let's pause together.
Let me just say, Jesus, I I do.I need I need to come into a
moment of stillness in aconstantly buzzing world. I need
stillness. Bring me intostillness for a moment. Help my
(02:52):
soul and my mind to get still.
I need to just calm down alittle. And I need to release
things to you I'm I'm alreadycarrying, work, people, school,
loved ones, something you justheard on the news. I just need
to release all of that. And andthe basis of this is first Peter
(03:15):
five, verse seven, cast all ofyour cares upon the Lord because
he cares for you. So let's dothat right now.
And as you do that, just noticeyour body. Are you able to relax
a little bit as you do this?Notice your breathing. Are you
able to breathe a little deeper?Let's take a moment.
(04:05):
Thank you, God. Thank you. Yes.Breathe into me now. Breathe in
to me.
Your presence reorient me toyour presence and how your
presence reorients me toeverything else. Amen. So I want
(04:26):
to use what just happened for mein the pause Okay. As an entree
into this because it wasclearly, clearly from God. I was
having a hard time tuning in atall to the presence of God,
which is not my norm.
You know, just like any otherhabit as you cultivate your
(04:48):
ability to cycle or run or, youknow, prepare meals or give a
talk, you know, comfort a childas you, as you cultivate your
ability to be with a three yearold, you get better at it.
Right? Okay. So I have a deeplycultivated soul that is able to
tune pretty quickly into thepresence of God with me. I
(05:11):
couldn't I couldn't do it duringthe pause.
And so instead I just ask, I'mlike, what is jamming this? What
I feel jammed. I feel like inwartime, you know, the first
thing they always go after iscommunications, take out
communications. Yeah, the guythe guy you did not want to be,
(05:33):
you know, in any of any of therecent wars, you know, with
radio sets and that sort ofthing is the guy with the
antenna. Right?
In the platoon. It's like takethat guy out because he has the
radio. Right? Okay. So I'msitting in a moment trying to
pause.
I'm not finding God. And so Ijust tune in. I may, I am able
to ask, what is this? This feelslike jamming. And, and Jesus
(05:58):
goes, yeah, it's, it's chaos anddistraction.
I'm like, but why? And he said,over calling and purpose. Now
last night you and I had a veryimportant conversation around
calling and purpose. It wasvery, very deep, very, very
important. And we were kind ofcoming into awareness of, man,
(06:21):
there's an awful lot set againstany person's story with God.
Yep. Right? The the true storyhe has for you versus the
version the world wants to keepgiving you. I think that's
informative for part two. Ithink that's what's going on for
a lot of us is the chaos of theworld and the pace of things and
(06:46):
the just the jamming ofcommunications, find, you know,
hard to access God.
Not just because they're justtrying to be irritating, they,
meaning the enemy's forces, butjust but at a higher level of,
we don't want you to see whatGod's doing with clarity and
(07:06):
what your part is with clarity.Right?
Jon Tyson (07:09):
That kind
John Eldredge (07:09):
of felt like that's a lot to get out of a
twelve second pause. But that'swhat was going on. It's like, I
can't find you. It's chaos. Whyis there chaos?
It has to do with calling. Andso I think that kind of sets us
up for our conversation today.
Jon Tyson (07:27):
Yeah. Yes. I I we were you said something
yesterday that this morning.It's all a giant blur, mate.
Time time is Yeah.
Whatever it is. Yeah. You saidto not teach people about how to
really live with god and fightin our relationship with him to
(07:47):
get that clarity, to get thatconnection, is spiritual
malpractice. I was like, gosh.You think about how many people,
have lawsuits over various formsof malpractice.
It's somebody's job, and they'reentrusted with training and
(08:08):
authority to to do a thing tohelp you, and then they fail to
do it or they do it wrongly. Andyour take was we are we are
committing spiritual malpracticeby not helping people realize
there's an enemy that wants toblock communication. Yes. You're
in a war, so it's wartimecommunication, not just
peacetime communication. Yeah.
(08:29):
And people aren't talkingseriously enough. And the result
of that is you end up blamingGod for the work of the enemy.
That's so true. God is distant.Where is he?
How can and it's it's not god.It's the enemy. Yeah. And Yeah.
Establishing that ongoingorienting ourself is, I think,
really, really important.
John Eldredge (08:48):
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's yep.
That's right. It is malpractice.Down at the at the most
practical possible level. Okay.So what do I do about this?
You know, I've I've got jamminggoing on, which is really
interesting because Dave, ourengineers, we always we always
(09:09):
pray before, you know, we tryand consecrate what we do and
and we listen and ask Godbecause we want this to be
helpful to our We're not just inhere to kind of riff and what
are you saying, God? What arewhat do our people need? And we
felt like the word wasorientation and then what's in
the way. And and then Dave, ourengineer says, I feel like it's
(09:31):
chaos. I feel like chaos.
So, you know, New York where youpastor a church and you've been
for twenty years. Twenty years?
Jon Tyson (09:40):
Yes. Twenty years. Okay. Happy anniversary. Thanks.
John Eldredge (09:45):
It's like an espresso version of the world.
Jon Tyson (09:49):
Yeah. It is intense.
John Eldredge (09:50):
Yeah. It's an intensified version of
everything, whether it'ssexuality or ambition or or
cultural excellence or even, youknow, culinary excellence.
Right? It's it's just like anespresso version.
Jon Tyson (10:10):
Chaos? 100%. One hundred %, mate. There's so part
of the challenge is that on a ona basic level, things have sped
up so quickly that that produceschaos. You know, you remember
those games where the old gameswhere there's one thing coming
(10:32):
at you and you can hit it, andthen there's two things and you
can hit it, and there's threeand then you square.
And there's so many you just getoverwhelmed. That's the so part
of it is just modern life. NewYork is like that's the pace of
life, and it's the amount ofpeople. You are just confronted.
All you need do is get out ofthe city for a bit, and you get
back in, and you're immediatelyassaulted by sensual sense sense
(10:55):
sensory.
John Eldredge (10:56):
Yes. It's almost different.
Jon Tyson (10:57):
All of those. All at once. Yes. Like, I just saw Yes.
30 things I'll never see in aneveryday life in another place.
So, yeah, there's there'sdefinitely that sense. And then
you can go from one neighborhoodto another neighborhood, and
it's a totally different kind ofchaos in a three minute walk.
And if you walk, you know,several blocks, you're exposed
(11:18):
to completely differentideologies, different sociology,
different spiritual dynamics,different confrontations with
different kinds of people. It'sjust it's everywhere all the
time. So it does feel like that.
So it requires a kind ofrootedness and orientation to be
able to navigate the complexityof the onslaught that's coming
against you. You you don't haveto be in New York to get that.
(11:41):
You can just turn the news on,and you will get that coming at
your heart. You will get highdefinition footage of every
global trauma in bite sizedbleeding components fed to your
heart for news ratings, you canyou can choose that. Yep.
Let alone it just being thruston us. We often choose to allow
(12:02):
that into our life, and it'sdoing tremendous damage.
John Eldredge (12:04):
Yeah. I I I follow some people and some
things on YouTube. And so when Iget on, you get the short reels
and the advert you know, you getthe things that are trying to
get your attention. Right?
Jon Tyson (12:15):
I just I listen. I hate it, but I just pay for
premium just so I'm notassaulted by the ads.
John Eldredge (12:20):
It's a
Jon Tyson (12:21):
time versus assaulting my ass.
John Eldredge (12:23):
Me too. Yeah. Yeah. I went with premium. Yeah.
Get that out of my face. Buteven still, here's what I
noticed. Even still, the thereels and the little tile they
put on them are getting moresensational.
Jon Tyson (12:37):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (12:38):
Because we've got to get an already distracted,
you know, human race who isalready in disorientation. We we
got we got to shout louder andhere's a little bit more drama
or that sort. You know, theshocking thing the president
just said or you won't believethis.
Jon Tyson (12:55):
Yeah. Yeah. The the the clickbait titles and the
algorithms, the research hasshown they they form us over
time towards the extremesbecause it's in some sense like
pornography. It has to get moreand more extreme because people
get numbed and desensitized toit. And so the algorithms and
(13:15):
content makers realize if it'snot more sensational, more
anxious, more fear, more we'vebasically taken the seven deadly
sins and turned them intomarketing strategies for the
human soul.
John Eldredge (13:25):
Yeah.
Jon Tyson (13:25):
So they're always appealing to the the worst of
the flesh. Yeah. And it's very,very hard to fight that.
John Eldredge (13:31):
Yeah. Yeah. So what what we're saying, what and
what we were hearing God say onyour behalf, dear listeners, is
orientation. Orientation is soimportant because part of what
we were also talking about atbreakfast this morning is when
you misdiagnose something,right, you're gonna when you
(13:53):
misdiagnose something, you'regonna misprescribe it. You're
gonna mistreat it.
Right? And so if you just give asociological explanation to
something that actually has aspiritual root to it.
Jon Tyson (14:02):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (14:03):
And part of what we were talking about do you
remember that?
Jon Tyson (14:05):
Oh oh, for the rest of my life.
John Eldredge (14:08):
Yes. Okay.
Jon Tyson (14:10):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (14:13):
Guys blowing their lives up was part of the
conversation.
Jon Tyson (14:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, can I wanna can I say three things?
Yes. Like, you you there's threeways of things.
One one analogy is so when I wasin seminary, I had a professor
who was in the air force. One ofmy just for one class. He was
really good, and we were in DC.The the the cohort was in DC for
(14:41):
this particular series ofmeetings that we had some
military folks. And he talkedabout OODA loops versus ODA
loops and, basically, how pilotswould fly when the planes were a
little slower, which wasobserve, decide, and act.
And they they were moving at apoint where it was the pilot's
felt instincts that enabled himto navigate with safety. But as
jet engines came in, they weremoving at such a spay a speed
(15:04):
where he couldn't trust his ownobservations. So, so they had to
put in a word, went from an odaloop to an oda loop, and the
second o was orientation. Andthat meant you had to look at
the instruments because youcouldn't trust your senses. Wow.
And guys were flying intocliffs. So you've you've heard
these famous analogies where apilot will take someone up, spin
(15:26):
them, and then ask the question,which way is up? And they would
swear on their life that up isabove them, but they're like, if
I did what you said, we woulddrive into the ground right now.
John Eldredge (15:37):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (15:37):
And so you have to rely on the instrumentation. You
have to orient by a source basedin reality outside of your own
experience. And I think in ourmodern world, that's what really
the heart of it is. You cannotorient on culture dynamics. You
can't orient even on humanemotions.
You need something outside ofthe circumstance, timeless
aligned with reality, which isJesus and his kingdom and his
(15:59):
word. Yeah. And in the midst ofthe chaos, you can't just go,
I'm observing what's happening.I'm deciding what to do, and I'm
gonna act. That is just gonna bea cycle of reactivity to anxiety
Yeah.
And fear. You gotta orient inthe middle of it towards
something outside. You gottabreak that pattern in that
cycle. Yeah. So what's thepause?
(16:19):
What's the pause app? It's abrief orientation outside of the
moment and the senses to God andhis word to get you past true
reality and perspective in themidst of any given moment so
then you can decide and act froma kingdom and a peace
perspective, not a fear or, youknow, just a cultural
(16:40):
perspective.
John Eldredge (16:41):
Yeah.
Jon Tyson (16:41):
So that the role of orientation more than ever Yes.
Is the key skill. Yes. Secondthing, we were talking about
sociology versus spirituality.Our sociology has gotten great.
There's so much data and there'sso much research, and the social
sciences have gotten sointeresting. You know, I'm
(17:04):
listening to Malcolm Gladwell'snew book, Revenge of the Tipping
Point right now. I'm like, thisis amazing. It's on how negative
I'm like, this is fascinating.But Malcolm Gladwell's not
asking the question, where isGod and where is Satan in this?
Exactly. And so we have so andin the church, I think, the
(17:25):
churches have tended to be so,not in a godly sense, but an
irresponsible sense,hyperspiritual, that we've
ignored sociology. There'sactually a lot of really good
stuff in sociology diagnosingwhat is happening. But the
problem with only havingsociology is nobody's asking,
are there spiritual forcesbehind this that we can be aware
(17:49):
of? Yeah.
And to me, that's where so manypeople go wrong is they're
orienting only around socialforces, and they're not
orienting around spiritualrealities. Yeah. So let me just
take a shot at an example. We'reworking more than ever. The pace
of life is radicallyunsustainable, and so sociology
(18:10):
is telling us that we need torest.
K? This is telling us you'reworking too much. We're burning
out. We're burning a generationout. Nobody's asking the
question, why would God want usto burn out and have a life
apart from him, and how is theenemy involved in this?
Or is Satan using our fear ofburning out from robbing us from
reaching our full redemptivepotential so we never learn to
(18:32):
work and expand our capacity?We're just reacting to
sociological data and, you know,workplace trends and surveys and
Gen Z in the the workplace, andno one's asking, what's God
doing here, and what's the enemydoing here? And so our
orientation is insufficient atbest because it's not oriented
towards ultimate reality, whichis God, what are you doing in
(18:53):
this generation? Yes. Sameprinciple with our own life.
So I think it's very importantYeah. That we get to the
spiritual roots, not just thesociological analysis. That's
and that's one of my biggesttakeaways. I love sociology.
Every sermon I preach has asociological insight in it.
And I'm so convicted. Like, doesevery sermon have a thoughtful,
(19:16):
prayer filled, genuine attemptat a spiritual diagnosis below
the sociology so people can livein freedom in light of it. The
answer is it will from now on,sir. Good. So that was good.
But then, again so that's twothings. The third thing around
men blowing themselves up andwhy are men failing in this
(19:38):
particular moment. There aresociological forces Sure. That
that Satan can use to do it, butthere are spiritual realities
deeper than that. Yes.
And we're in an epidemic ofmen's lives falling apart. Yes.
And I think a huge part of it isthey have not built an inner
world with God to orient them inlight of the temptation and
(20:02):
forces they're facing inleadership. Yes. And one of the
sad dynamics of my life at thispoint I'm at that point where
where in seminary they warn you,you know, several you know, look
at the guys to your left andright.
Only one of you's got like, I'monly one of you will finish
right. I'm in that. Many many ofmy fathers and mentors are not
(20:23):
finishing well. And I don't
John Eldredge (20:25):
think so sad.
Jon Tyson (20:27):
Oh, it's it's beyond tragic to fail at the finish
line, be disqualified. You'renot disqualified from the grace
of God Mhmm. But to work yourentire life. Now I've had some
mentors who this has been acornerstone for their
transformation, and they aredifferent men because of it.
They've been through a processof grace and redemption and
(20:49):
restoration.
Their marriages are healthy, andtheir kids respect them. I've
seen some beautiful redemption,and I've seen some absolute
dumpster fire tragedies. And yousaid something to me as well,
which is like, it's not becausemen are not orienting the whole
of their lives around the personof Jesus. We've got these
unoriented fragmented parts ofus caught in sin and trauma and
(21:12):
abuse and strongholds. Yep.
And under pressure, those thingsget triggered, and people are
living out of that rather thanintegrating and orienting that
towards the person of Jesus.
John Eldredge (21:22):
Yeah.
Jon Tyson (21:23):
And I have one guy that I respect deeply, had a
profound impact on my thinkingabout apostolic mission. I mean,
probably the most of anyone Iknow who recently had an affair
and blew his life up. And I waslike, I don't think that was
him. Yeah. That's not the guy Iknow making a dumb decision.
(21:43):
Yeah. I don't know where the guyYeah. That I know went, but that
guy's not that guy. Yeah. Youknow?
John Eldredge (21:49):
That's right. Yeah. Yep. And and you can
choose to bring the highlyenchanted worldview
Jon Tyson (21:57):
of
John Eldredge (21:57):
the Bible into the assessment of the situation.
Or you can try and use thelatest psycho stuff, right, and
sociological and, oh, well, youknow, it's the midlife crisis
or, you know, it is, it is, itis a form of spiritual
malpractice that we are notdiscipling people into a very
(22:19):
rich understanding of how Godengages the world, how he
engages the human soul and howSatan does. Right? Because that
that is the fundamental world inwhich we live.
Jon Tyson (22:29):
And
John Eldredge (22:31):
things like YouTube and distraction and that
sort of thing are not, oh, just,oh man. There was a, for a
couple of years, and this isn'ttrue anymore, thank God. For a
couple of years Colorado Springswas the, leading the nation in
(22:51):
youth suicide. Wow. ColoradoSprings.
And you kind of go, man, this isa Why? That's, that's really
bizarre because this isn't, youknow, this isn't The Congo.
This, you're not in some sort ofhorrible war torn, you know, you
see trauma every day. You're notin that. And, and this isn't,
you know, DC, New York, SanFrancisco intensity overworked
(23:14):
over, you know, what is that?
And the conclusion of somepeople that I love was it's the
cell phones. It's their cellphones. It's teenage girls and
cell phones. And I'm like, youare that there is some truth to
(23:35):
that. There is some truth tothat.
But that is so woefullyinadequate when you leave out
the rest of reality. Right? Andwhy do epidemics like this
happen? And what are the spiritsat work in the situation there?
(23:57):
So again, we're not going to,we're not going to reveal lots
of personal detail on on recentevents, but you, you and I are
in a time of prayer and yourphone blows up.
Jon Tyson (24:11):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (24:12):
With data from across the world that it just
like, we're praying againststuff and all of a sudden your
phone's like, Mayday, we'regetting attacked by this over
here kind of a thing.
Jon Tyson (24:24):
Like That that was as that was as I mean, I wish we
could share more details. I II'm not quite sure we can. I'll
I'll try and make the them fullexplanations. It was like this
it was like pushing a button andthen it being answered. We're in
(24:46):
your office.
We're praying through aparticular issue. A serious
issue. Very. Yep. Yeah.
Not morally serious. No.Spiritually serious. Yeah. And
then the very thing which isvery serious that you're praying
about, a spirit that you'relike, there's a spiritual attack
coming against you.
Yes. This is very serious.
John Eldredge (25:05):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (25:05):
And then the very thing you you say, I've just had
god's just revealed to methere's a spiritual attack
against you. Here is the attack.Yes. And in the middle of you
saying that, my phone blows upwhere the very attack that you
said God showed you was comingagainst me just happened to
someone in my family Yeah. Atthe exact same moment.
(25:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Conversation about acertain relational dynamic,
Satan wanting to meddle in acertain relational dynamic.
Yeah. And in the middle of yousaying that Yep.
The exact relational meddlinghappens in the middle of the
very dynamic that you're talkingabout. Get it text. Instant.
Yes. You see, it it would belike saying, would you like more
(25:49):
coffee with a coffee mug?
And I say yes, and you pour itin that fast. It was just I
think it was just such abeautiful reminder. Yes. There
is a spiritual realm behind thisone. Yes.
I think in our fear of theexcess of Pentecostalism that
everything's a demon and you'recasting demons out of
everything, mean, you're like,it's probably not a demon, man.
It's probably just Yeah. You'retired. Yeah. In our overreaction
(26:13):
to that Yep.
And in our hyper connection tothis world because of the speed
of technology and what'savailable, you call it being
discipled by the Internet Yeah.Everything's available
immediately. We've gotten rid ofthe spiritual realm whatsoever.
Yeah. And I think as a result,there's all of these forces
taking shape that need to beaddressed and responded to Yes.
(26:33):
In a godly, responsible, matureway. Yes. And it's spiritual
malpractice to send people intoa war with no tools for war.
There's a quote from one of yourbooks. I I, it's you quote
someone.
We and the world will always beat war. Retreat is impossible.
Arm yourselves.
John Eldredge (26:52):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (26:53):
And I I think about that a lot. Yeah. There is a
spiritual war. Retreat isimpossible. We have to arm
ourselves.
Yeah. And Paul says we are notignorant of his devices, and yet
I think we are in a little bit.
John Eldredge (27:07):
Massively. Massively. Yeah. Okay. So for
example, I'm taking a pause andand I can't find God.
Instead of going to, well,there, you know, there it goes
again. He's he's distant, youknow, like always. Or there it
(27:27):
goes again. I'm just not veryspiritual. I I guess I don't.
I don't really get this. Youknow, I think I'll go back to my
other ways of of findingrefreshment. You know, gonna go
scroll my phone or something.Instead of going there, you go
with what is interfering,possibly, what is possibly
interfering here and dealingdirectly with it, dealing
(27:50):
directly with it. So I thinkthat there is I don't think.
I know. You see on a human levelchaos in the world. Just it's
just it's just chaos.
Jon Tyson (28:02):
Yeah.
John Eldredge (28:04):
And folks, whatever politics you are,
whatever flavor you are, anenormous amount of chaos is
being released in the worldpolitically. Okay. Just it's
just unbelievable. If you onlythink that that is human, you
(28:25):
will never get it out of yourhead and out of your house.
Right?
Because you go, hang on. Thekingdom of darkness thrives in
chaos. It absolutely thrives init. And all of the horrible
things, you know, terrorism andextremism and, and all that,
they all thrive in chaos. Youknow, mob mentality, mob panic,
(28:50):
all that thrives in chaosenvironments.
So we're praying before the showand Jesus says, orientation,
guys. And so we're trying toorient. And what's against it?
Chaos. Okay.
And it was it was like the chaosout there. It wasn't the chaos
in us. It was the chaos outthere. How do we pray? Well, I
(29:13):
guess to immediately go toGenesis one.
You know, God is over the chaoswaters. Right? Hovering. Yeah.
And and he the power of God, thecreation glory of the living
God.
And so to pray something like,you know, we bring the power of
Jesus Christ or we bring theauthority of the Lord Jesus or
(29:36):
we bring the creation power ofthe living God is glory against
all chaos right now that'sinterfering with me and my
prayer time, or that'sinterfering with this
conversation I'm trying to havewith my spouse, or that's
getting into, you know, our kidsyou know, the last school board
(29:57):
meeting was utterly chaotic.What do we do with that? Well,
you correctly diagnose it andthen correctly deal with it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right? Yep. That's truediscipleship.
Jon Tyson (30:07):
Yeah. Yes. Right? I I don't think, you know, we spent
some time praying this morning,and I sort of asked you. You
have a and you've got these arein the back of your books.
These, I mean, these things aresort of written down.
John Eldredge (30:23):
Public. Yeah.
Jon Tyson (30:25):
But I sort of say, do you need to do this every day,
man? And not sort offacetiously. Yeah. Do you you
have to do this every day. It'slike, yeah, there's so much
chaos in our life and in ourwarfare in the modern world.
You can lose your soul in a day,mate. Yep. You can lose your
(30:45):
marriage in a day. You can loseyour kids' hearts in a day.
Yeah.
You the the the speed, the pace,the violence, the acceleration,
it requires us every day to putthose boundaries up and to
reorder our hearts and to one ofthe things that you were praying
in terms of sort of a warfareprayer, renouncing the world.
(31:06):
And I was like, man, I gotta dothat more in New York because
New York is it's it's it's it'sleaking on you everywhere, the
lust of the flesh, the pride oflife. Yeah. You you feel it. And
just like I just I renounce theworld.
I renounce the lusts of theworld. I renounce the spirit of
mammon. I I renounce the needfor recognition. Just and what
(31:28):
you're saying to your heart is Iam ordering and orienting my
heart around God. I'm not evenletting in for a day the seeds
of the chaos of the world.
That's right. The seeds ofgodless ambition, the seeds of
bitterness to get in it and tocreate havoc in my inner man
Yes. My inner woman. Yes. I'mI'm making sure that having a
(31:49):
rightly ordered and orientedheart Yes.
Every day stops chaos evenhitting my week. Yes. And I
think Yes. I think that may bemaybe the most important thing
you can do. Because the truth iswe have so little agency over
the world.
That's why it produces so muchanxiety.
John Eldredge (32:10):
Right.
Jon Tyson (32:11):
You unless you unless you work in Washington, what can
you really do about Washington?Not that much. Right. You can do
everything about the orientationof your heart towards Jesus.
Yep.
You have total agency over yourinner life with God and the help
of the Holy Spirit.
John Eldredge (32:31):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (32:32):
So I think Yeah. One of even the starting points in
dealing with the anxiety and thechaos is realizing the best you
can do everything about the mostimportant thing, which is you
can orient your heart and getthe chaos out of your own
spirit. And then when you showup, people will be drawn around
you. Saint Seraphim says, showup with a peaceful spirit, and
(32:55):
thousands will be saved aroundyou. I think there's something
true to that really.
Smokes. When you show up andyou're like, I I'm not caught up
in that. I'm not driven by that.Yes. Yes.
Peter says, always be preparedto give an answer for the hope
within you. Yeah. Maybe anextension of that verse is
always be prepared to give ananswer for the peace within you
(33:16):
Yes. That we get from orientingour hearts around Christ.
John Eldredge (33:19):
Yeah. Yeah. And so, because you live in a highly
enchanted world, and by highlyenchanted, I mean it it it is
profoundly beautiful andspiritual and populated on both
sides with all sorts ofwonderful and horrifying beings,
which all around us, like theand God and his presence and his
(33:40):
kingdom are working at alltimes. Because that's our
reality, when you wake up in thenight to anxiety, you don't
start with, gosh, I must beanxious. You start with, no, no.
God has not given me a spirit offear, but of power, love, and a
sound mind. Or or quote Romanseight, you've not received a
(34:03):
spirit that makes you a slaveagain to fear, but you've
received a spirit of.
Jon Tyson (34:09):
What a phrase, by the way. What a diagnosis of life
without God. Slaves to fear.
John Eldredge (34:16):
Right? Okay. Yeah. Right. Exactly.
So instead of just going with itand go, well, this just must be,
you know, this is my currentcondition. You don't want to
make agreements with it. Yourecognize, hang on, I live in a
love story set in a world atwar. I live in a highly
populated universe. I'm gonnastart with some of the basic
(34:38):
tools here.
I reject this. You can't have mysoul. I'm not going with this.
Right? And banish it.
Get it out of there. Fry it. Icall down the judgment of
Almighty God on on this fearthat's in our home right now.
(34:58):
Get it out. Okay?
And then and then I'm not tryingto be irresponsible. And then in
the morning, you begin tonotice, Lord, are there
vulnerabilities in me that isgiving anxiety a place in my
life? Are there why? Why doesthat work with me? You know, he
didn't come with pride in thenight.
(35:18):
He came with fear. Why does thatwork with me, Lord? And so then
you do the healthy soul work.Right? And and it yeah.
Is this rooted in childhoodabandonment? Is this rooted in
you you your lack of completelack of faith that your future
is good, that God has a goodfuture for you. You got to do
the soul work as well. Right?And I'm not trying to be
(35:40):
irresponsible with, you know,just kick things out all the
time.
But you start with theimmediate. Do not give this
place.
Jon Tyson (35:50):
That that is so interesting. Again, I think
we're so overreacting to abuses.I can almost hear in my mind
some people saying, well, areyou saying that people don't
need medication? Are you sayingand it's like, look. Not at all.
Not at all? But let's at leastaccess all of this which is
available in the Lord. Yes. Oh.
John Eldredge (36:11):
Oh. Oh.
Jon Tyson (36:11):
Okay. Okay.
John Eldredge (36:12):
This is this so I've been doing a ton of
interviews around the therelease of Experience Jesus,
really. And, by the way, you hadthe funniest reaction to it last
night. You're like, no, no, no,mate. You should have you should
have named it Experience Jesusreally, really, really, really,
really. Okay.
(36:32):
Anyway, so I'm on,interestingly, an Australian
podcast Yeah. Hosted by a lovelyyoung woman and and we're having
a chat and and she's kind ofpushing pretty hard back on the
accessibility of God in hiskingdom because it it can sound
over spiritualized unless it istrue. Yeah. If it is true that
(36:54):
God is the great reality and heshe then shifted in the
interview after I made kind ofmy case for, no, hang on. You
know, She says, wait a second.
Are you it seems like you'resaying that here we have we are
underutilizing God. Yes. ThatGod is an underutilized resource
in our lives. Yes. That here isthis vast resource, and and we
(37:17):
would add to that, you know, thethe everything of his kingdom,
right, that's available to us,that we are not accessing and we
are underutilizing the resource.
I thought that was a beautifulway of describing it.
Jon Tyson (37:31):
Yeah. I I think that that is it. It is an
overreaction. We areunderutilizing as an
overreaction to abuse Yeah.Rather than saying, let's just
rightfully Yes.
Utilize everything that ispossible Yeah. As a first
resort.
John Eldredge (37:45):
Either as either as a reaction to abuse, and
that's for some people, or justbecause you are so oriented by
the materialist world andworldview that you have a
completely disenchanted view ofreality, demystified view of
reality, and and you are just anutter disciple of the Internet
and lost in the current momentof unbelief. Okay. So here was
(38:09):
the big example. This this wasone of the moments where you
went, woah, wait a second. Ihave not thought about this.
So folks have heard us talkabout the Barnet data of one in
two people walking away fromserious faith. And they tried
they tried in their thislongitudinal analysis to go read
the Bible, go to church, youknow, commit it. Some level of
(38:32):
commitment. Yeah. And folks haveheard us talk about quote the
great, you know, falling away.
Could we be in that? Theapostasy and and, you know, I
mean, Australia, it post post,It's so post Christian, it's pre
Christian. Right? As one of myAussie friends calls it, so is
Western Europe, so is so much ofThe United States. And yet God
(38:56):
is working and God is moving andpeople are people are coming to
Jesus.
But as we were praying, I was Iwas describing what a number of
us have seen and experienced inin the fullness of God's
perspective of the world thatalmost like a fog of unbelief.
(39:18):
Sort of chaos and unbelief, likea fog of it has just been
released by the kingdom ofdarkness into the world. We call
it the eclipse of God warfare.And when you when it hits you
and it hit it it had a dear,dear friend of mine recently who
is a very deep lover of Jesus,and she's like, when it comes in
(39:38):
the moment, he's gone. Yeah.
I can't access him. And there'salmost a level of panic of, oh
my gosh, what just happened tome? You go, hang on, hang on.
This fog just rolled through. Wecan get rid of that using the
power of the breath of Godagainst it.
You you had an interestingreaction to that. Do you
(39:59):
remember what it was?
Jon Tyson (39:59):
Yeah. I always so one thing I wanna have a second data
point after that, but it waslike, I talk about all the time.
I care about revival, moves ofgod, god coming in power. Yeah.
And I was like, hey.
We live at a time of decline.And, you know, it's like, you
know, like, we live at a time ofsecularism and blah blah. You're
bantering around these forces.And, embarrassingly, I'd never
(40:24):
thought of wide scale spiritualwarfare that was a spirit of
unbelief or apostasy. Yep.
Is the enemy releasing some sortof spirit of apostasy? Is this a
part of his attack or his plan?And, you know, maybe
deconstruction, which I thinkwe're sort of over
deconstruction, certainly nottrending in my world like it
(40:46):
was. But did that open a doorfor some spirit? Even the the
the obsession with it,everybody's rioting about opens
a door for a spirit to get into.
It's actually that beingmanifest. Yes. And I was like, I
always prayed for God to move ina time of decline, but I never
prayed against a spirit ofunbelief or apostasy. Right. So
(41:07):
I was doing the positive askingYes.
Without rebuking the negative,which may have been a huge part
of the root of it.
John Eldredge (41:14):
It's a huge part.
Jon Tyson (41:15):
Even even when you pray, praying for my friends
struggling with faith Yes.Rarely do we say, you know, the
thief comes to steal and to killand to destroy. Yep. Jesus has
come for fullness of life. Yep.
Even rebuking the thief stealingfaith. Yes. I don't think we've
ever even I wasn't consciouslyprocessing like that. I was
(41:35):
overinvested in a materialistworldview subconsciously.
John Eldredge (41:39):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (41:39):
Yes. And it was just a a divine reminder
John Eldredge (41:42):
and corrective.
Jon Tyson (41:43):
Sociological Second point, you know, the latest Gen
Z data shows they're the mostspiritually open generation in
history. Right. They'respiritually that doesn't mean
gospel.
John Eldredge (41:53):
That's right.
Jon Tyson (41:54):
But it it's showing the failure of secularism as a
narrative. That's right. Youknow, Charles Tatto talks about
the malaise of imminence, whichmeans when you when you get rid
of God, you empty life of wonderor in meaning, and all you're
left with is technique. And itis not big enough to be a true
account of the human experience.You know?
(42:15):
Well, I know you feel likeyou're in love, but listen,
that's just an evolutionaryinstinct biologically urging to
propagate the species later on.It's like, sorry, man. That
doesn't explain Shakespeare.It's and I think a lot of Gen Z
kids are on the other side of itbecause they've been so
John Eldredge (42:31):
Yes. Yes.
Jon Tyson (42:33):
Oriented with tech.
John Eldredge (42:34):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (42:35):
Their rebellion is tech isn't working for my heart.
Yeah. What else is there? Yes. Ithink it really is a moment Yes.
For openness to the gospel.
John Eldredge (42:43):
I do too. I do too. And then you're seeing it.
You guys are seeing
Jon Tyson (42:47):
Oh, if you came to our church on a Sunday night,
we're in the East Village at abig Episcopal church. Okay. See,
I don't know. Seats maybe it's1,300 seats.
John Eldredge (42:56):
Okay. Last week, I said I have a friend who
attends your church. Yeah. Thisweek, I have two friends
Jon Tyson (43:01):
Okay.
John Eldredge (43:02):
Who attend your church.
Jon Tyson (43:03):
Okay.
John Eldredge (43:03):
So it's
Jon Tyson (43:04):
Okay. It's growing. I'm preaching on discipleship
this Sunday. One of the thingspeople always say is, this is so
young, I feel uncomfortable. Andmy response is always, me too,
man.
I'm like an old dude with grayhair preaching to the kids.
Yeah. But isn't it a beautifulmiracle Yes. That in the middle
(43:28):
of New York City Come on. Thisbuilding is full of young people
seeking Jesus.
John Eldredge (43:34):
Come on.
Jon Tyson (43:34):
I I have had strangers walking past who've
said, I've lived in thisneighborhood thirty years. How
are there so many young peoplegoing to church? And I always
really graciously say, you know,the good news is better than we
remember, man. Come on in. Youknow?
Yeah. So, yeah, I definitely seemany young people saying, what
else is there? We've triedeverything. You've had unlimited
access to sex, unlimited accessto technology. We've seen the
(43:57):
term billionaires get completelynormalized.
We've had everything big, large,and immediate, and spectacular,
and it has not worked. Same daydelivery. Yeah. Same day. In New
York, it's same hour, man.
You need it in an hour. They'llget it in an hour.
John Eldredge (44:12):
Yeah. Good
Jon Tyson (44:13):
habits. So people are saying, what else is there? It's
a moment for the gospel. We areseeing this in New York, and
many other places are seeing it.Now I don't wanna devalue older
saints.
Of course, we
John Eldredge (44:23):
need
Jon Tyson (44:23):
mothers, fathers, sages, wisdom. We need middle
aged folks stepping intomentoring. But let's celebrate
John Eldredge (44:30):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (44:31):
That what was the great decline is becoming the
great openness.
John Eldredge (44:34):
Yeah. It is. Yeah. It is. That's absolutely
true.
That's absolutely true. And soso much more we could talk
about. I'm just yeah. Where doyou wanna go? Where do you wanna
go, Jesus, with this?
What a what a lovely thing. Hejust said, my heart for people.
(44:56):
My heart for people. Share alittle bit about your passion
for revival. Like that's a longseated thing in you.
You read about it. You researchit. You look at the old folks.
You Yeah. Like, where's thatcoming from?
Jon Tyson (45:12):
It it comes from three places. First of all, it
comes from my experience ofmeeting Jesus.
John Eldredge (45:19):
Right. Same here. Mine too.
Jon Tyson (45:20):
Yes. I mean, I I I came into something. This was
solid rock youth group atParadise Assemblies of God in
Paradise, South Australia. AndI've really tried to be
objective and analyze this. Isthis just me?
Was this just my internalpsychological state? Was I
(45:41):
primed and ready? Was it no.Mainly no. It was God.
John Eldredge (45:47):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (45:48):
God was there. God was at church. Most people would
go to church and the last personthey expect to meet is God. They
expect good preaching, friendlygreeters, nice worship, but if
God was there they'd beterrified. And I would go to
church, and God was there.
It was peel you off the carpetin the presence of God Church.
It changed my life. It was thekingdom of God's not a matter of
(46:11):
talk but of of power. Yes. I I Iencountered it.
I want everybody to experiencewhat I experienced. A part of
it's personal narrative. And Iwas with a youth pastor. This
was a guy named Paul Gearing.Gears, if you're listening,
hello.
He would take VHS tapes ofrevivals from around the world,
(46:32):
turn them into a revival mashup,get a bunch of youth leaders in
a room, play that video, andsay, God's gonna do it again
through you. And then we'd spendthe rest of the night crying out
to God. It was the undergroundchurch in China shaking under
the power of God in a cave isthe one I remember. Reinhard
Bonke preaching in Africa to amillion people, and and he just
(46:54):
said, this is normalChristianity. What you're seeing
is the this this decline is notnormal Christianity.
Right. So part of it, I was soblessed to come into the kingdom
of god like that. Number two,it's a sovereign theme. Even
when I left the assemblies ofgod, I never left the spirit of
revival that founded You know?If you were to peel my heart
(47:15):
back, I am a there's aPentecostal youth camp in my
heart, mate.
And really enjoying God is whatI'm trying to do. Yes. I asked
the question, you know, what dothey do at camp that you don't
do in real life? How do I neverlose the camp high? It's like,
keep camp culture alive, man.
Really try to do that. So so butso part of it is what I
(47:36):
encountered. Number two, it'sjust a sovereign thing. God has
made it inescapable from me. Ican't get away from it.
It I'm so drawn to it in in ahealthy but unhealthy manner. I
I feel a spiritual deficit if Idon't read about it. I read one
account of revival every day.Read about a revival in in China
(47:58):
about a a these are all peopleyou've mainly never heard of
too. This is not Finney and andWesley and Whitfield.
These these are, like, all theselocal accounts of moves of god.
Yeah. I I I'm reading about EvanRoberts said, for ten or eleven
years, I read about revivalcontinually, and it was in this
(48:19):
way god prepared me for revival.And I find that I think God
wants to do it again in theWest. Orientation.
Exactly.
John Eldredge (48:27):
Exactly. Orientation.
Jon Tyson (48:28):
I am orienting my heart around moves of God. Hey.
There you go. So I'm readingabout it, and it's stirring my
spirit. Smith Wiggersworth, totalk about the French
Pentecostals, used to say, Iwould read the word the word of
god so much and get it so deeplyin my spirit.
It was harder for me to doubtthan to believe. And I would say
I've read so many accounts ofrevival. It is harder for me to
(48:51):
believe it's not gonna happenthan it's gonna happen. Yeah.
It's a sovereign theme I can'tget away from.
And then number three, when youlive in a time of spiritual
decline and then you read thegospels and you read history,
you see such a massive gap whenyou look at at the the church in
the global South and what god'sdoing everywhere else but here.
(49:12):
Yes. At some point out ofspiritual jealousy, you're like,
we want some of that here. Yeah.The gap is so wide between what
the bible and redemptive historyoffer and what we're
experiencing.
At some point, your life big acry begins to emerge in your
life. Close the gap here andnow. And so Yes. I can't get
(49:36):
away from it. Yeah.
What what what are you you'vegot a couple of options when you
look at the chaos and thedecline. You can lament. That's
very appropriate. There's realsadness here. You can retreat
out of self preservation.
That doesn't feel godly. You canbe overwhelmed by fear, or you
can turn all of that intointercession for an intervention
(49:59):
of god.
John Eldredge (50:00):
Exactly.
Jon Tyson (50:00):
And that's what that you wanna talk about
therapeutic, cathartic release?Yeah. Take the anxiety and turn
it into intercession, man. And,god and then what I've learned
more than anything more thananything, it is in the place of
prayer that the heart istransformed. Yes.
You don't get transformation inthe theory of transformation.
(50:24):
Yes. It is in the place ofencounter
John Eldredge (50:26):
Yes.
Jon Tyson (50:27):
That your your enemy love is released. Yes. It's not
released in the agreement of thedoctrine. Yes. It's released in
the presence.
Yes. So all of the fear istransformed into peace in the
presence of God. All of the, youknow, all of the hatred and
anger Yeah. Is turned into lovein God's presence. Yeah.
(50:47):
So there's such a transformativework that happens in the place
of prayer. I know of no otherway to stay sane in the midst of
the chaos Yeah. And to have hopeinfused than to ask God to break
it and move. Yeah.
John Eldredge (51:01):
I'm gonna but I'm gonna I'm gonna tag one more
thing to that because last week,you were talking about your
morning routine. You intake alot of scripture.
Jon Tyson (51:12):
Oh, yeah. I'm yes.
John Eldredge (51:13):
I'm always Well, that's orienting.
Jon Tyson (51:16):
Yeah, man. I've to renew my mind.
John Eldredge (51:18):
Exactly. Today's input's tomorrow's thought life.
You're like, that's orienting.So as we bring this in for a
landing, I want to give ourbeautiful, beautiful followers a
couple things. First off, thechaos doesn't have to overwhelm
you folks.
(51:38):
I would, if you feel like theeclipse stuff coming over the
fogginess, the blurriness, whereis God? I just can't connect
right now. That's not you andthat doesn't have to stay that
way. Okay? I just have to givethat.
That's not you and it doesn'thave to stay that way. You begin
to pray against it. Right? Andand however you just know how to
(52:00):
do, but what I would do is Iwould pray with our friends
right now. We we bring thekingdom of God, which is the
supreme kingdom in in all theuniverse.
We bring the kingdom of God andthe authority of Jesus. And we
bring the power of God'screative glory, just his his
creation glory, Genesis one,against all chaos and the
(52:25):
fogginess that is trying to getin to us and into our worlds.
You can do that. You can dothat. And and we yeah.
The just the breath of almightyGod. It's so beautiful. The
breath of God against all of thecloudiness of intimacy, the
(52:46):
cloudiness of perspective andunbelief against unbelief. I
just renounce unbelief. We areasking you, God, to orient us to
the beauty of your kingdom.
May we be people who are sooriented to the beauty of your
kingdom and your work in theworld. And then the second thing
I want to say is, Lord, give me,give me your heart for people.
(53:11):
Give me your heart for people. Iwant your heart for people. Give
me your heart and then startputting people on my heart.
Go ahead. My neighbors, mycoworkers, family members, give
me your heart for people. I wantto interceding for people to
encounter you because theintimacy I have with you, God,
(53:31):
is is the greatest treasure ofmy life. I want them to have it
too.
Jon Tyson (53:35):
So
John Eldredge (53:37):
no to the chaos, no to the unbelief, no no to
that whole cloud of just theeclipse of God and the eclipse
of perspective. Right? No to it.Breath of God against it. Glory
of God against it.
And then Lord, give me yourheart for people. I want your
heart for people because allthese revival movements begin
with love. Oh, yeah. SomebodyHudson Taylor, right, saying,
(54:00):
give me a thousand lives, I'dstill give it for China. Right?
Like that's just love, That'sthat's not discipline. It's
love. All of these revivalmovements begin with love. So
Lord, give me your heart forpeople. I want your heart for
people and then make it realspecific.
I mean, you know, the waiter andgive me your heart for the cook
and give us your heart for theowner and like, I want to start
(54:22):
praying in that direction. Ithink those two things I hope
people take away from this.Amen. Thanks, John. This has
been super enjoyable.
Mate, what a treat.
Jon Tyson (54:32):
Thanks for having me.
John Eldredge (54:33):
Yeah. Next time I'm in New York.
Jon Tyson (54:35):
Let's go outside. Come on. Okay.
John Eldredge (54:37):
Alright. Thanks everybody for joining in this
week. Hope you enjoyed it too.
Allen Arnold (54:43):
Hey, friends. This is Allan. Thanks for being part
of this week's podcast. Andbefore you rush off into what's
next, we invite you to spendsome time reflecting with God on
what you've heard and on wherehe's leading.
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