Chris Packham | Spring, Birding and Pied Flycatchers

Wild Talk: In this bonus episode Ajay chats with wildlife legend Chris Packham about their shared love of birds. 

After 3 weeks of filming Springwatch at the Longshaw Estate, Ajay wants to hear more about the stunning cast of characters on this year's show.  
 
In particular, the black and white birds that choose to spend their summer here: the migrant pied flycatchers.  
 
Ajay meets Chris for a walk on the Springwatch set where they share their passion for birds, birding and what we must do to help wildlife. 
  
Production:  
Host: Ajay Tegala 
Producer: Marnie Woodmeade  
Sound Designer: Jesus Gomez  

Special thanks to Chris Packham for recording with us and the Springwatch TV team for being so welcoming!  
  
Discover more:  

Find out more about Chris Packham’s work and what’s coming up: https://www.chrispackham.co.uk/  

Learn more about pied flycatchers from the British Trust for Ornithology website: https://www.bto.org/learn/about-birds/birdfacts/pied-flycatcher

Follow Wild Tales on your favourite podcast app or on Instagram @wildtalesnt

If you'd like to get in touch with feedback, or have a wild tale you’re like to hear, you can contact us at [e-mail]  

Episode Transcript

CHRIS PACKHAM (00:03):
People always underestimate just how tough it
is to be a bird, fragile littlething you've got to go halfway
around the world every year andback again. I mean, it's a, you
know, it's a tough life and andand that's what we show on
Springwatch that, you know, it'salways been tough, you know, for
wildlife, but things are gettingtougher due to the, you know,
the extra burden and pressuresthat we're putting upon it.

AJAY TEGALA (00:28):
Hello, my name is Ajay Tegala, and today we're
bringing you a special bonusepisode of Wild Tales, a
springtime conversation withwildlife legend Chris Packham.
Chris is a wildlife activist,he's open about his journey with
autism, and he's been presentingSpringwatch for over a decade.

(00:49):
We've travelled up to theLongshore Estate in the Peak
District.
It's a beautiful location withrolling hills, lots of trees,
and a fair amount of birdsong.For the past 3 weeks, Chris has
been filming Springwatch here,seeing the best of British
wildlife, and there was onestory that particularly caught
our ears.

(01:14):
I worked on the Norfolk coastand one of my highlights was
seeing migrant pied flycatchers.So small birds, black and white,
not your little brown jobs, butbeautiful black and white
plumage, catching flies havingjust crossed the sea. And now to
see one in a nest in a nest boxon Springwatch. How does it feel
to be following that this year?

CHRIS PACKHAM (01:34):
Yeah, it's a treat. I mean, very, very rare
visitors to where I grew up inthe south of England and live
now in the in the New Forest. Soif you want to see pied flies
these days, you've got to go tothe western side of the UK.
There are a few in the WestCountry and then in Wales and
then stretching up into the LakeDistrict. Striking males, as you
say, dark brown, black andwhite, striking birds.

(01:56):
And the female a little bitduller, but still nevertheless
very, very beautiful. But Ithink aside from that, they're
indicators because they are abarometer of what's been
happening to many of our birdspecies on account of the
pressures that we've put uponthem.
Pressures start here at home,you know, there's been a
significant decline in largeflying insects, and that's what
they're feeding on and that'swhat they're feeding their young

(02:18):
on due to the abuse and anddependence of chemical
insecticides.
And then of course the trialsand tribulations of of
migration, which is justincomprehensible to us. You a
tiny little bird weighs a fewgrams. It's got to fly all the
way to Africa.

AJAY TEGALA (02:36):
And that one of the themes of Springwatch this year
is that nature writes the storyof the season, but that's
changing.
And I, I wondered if there'sanything in particular this
year, a key moment or a keystory that symbolises change of
spring for you.

CHRIS PACKHAM (02:50):
Well, I mean, Springwatch is a learning
experience for all of us becausewe are confronted by things that
we haven't thought aboutpreviously, and then we need to
understand them. And one of thethings that we've uncovered this
year is the intense competitionbetween great tits and pied
flycatchers, and our great titsnest in my garden.
pied flycatchers don't, they'renot a bird I know as well. I
don't see them as frequently. Sowhen I come here, I want to

(03:11):
learn as much about them aspossible. And what we see is
that great tits are nesting overa broader period of the spring,
they're starting to nestearlier.
By the time the pied fliesarrive, in the past, great tits
would have been coming to theend of their nesting period, and
there would have beenopportunities for the pied flies
to use their nest holes. That'snot now the case, and we're
saying that 10% of prospectingmale pied flycatchers being

(03:35):
killed by great tits.
Great tits are a feisty littlebird, you know, so that that
isn't unusual, but pied fliesare a species that's in trouble.
Great tis are increasing. We puta lot of food out in the UK
that's contributed to thatincrease in some way.
Pied flies are migrant, they'restruggling in their wintering
ranges, they're struggling, youknow, during that process of
going to and fro, migrating, youknow, a great distance across

(03:58):
the planet, and now they'reconfronted with this
asynchronicity, which is animpact of climate breakdown, and
we're seeing that as somethingwhich is real and tangible and
having impacts on these birds'populations, and it's, you know,
pretty terrifying, really.
It's making all of that bigexistential thing that we
imagine as a separate entity.That we imagine is something we

(04:20):
can do nothing about. It'smaking it very real when you
look into a pied fly box and seea dead animal there that's come
all the way from Africa to breedand is prevented from doing so
because the seasons are messedup.

AJAY TEGALA (04:33):
Oh gosh, yes. And I work at Wicken Fen where we have
lots of cuckoos, or I say havelots of cuckoos, we're seeing a
similar thing where thatsynchronicity is changing and
their numbers are decreasing. Aswell as of course, the shortage
in insects, the decline ininsects.
The winners to me seem to besome of the heron species that
we're seeing increase innumbers, the egrets, and indeed

(04:54):
also cranes as well. And that'snice to see the habitat
restoration especially ofwetlands is providing these
habitats that are enabling someof these species to really go
from strength to strength.

CHRIS PACKHAM (05:06):
Yeah, I mean, we must be clear, it's not all bad
news. Certainly when it comes togeneralist animals with a very
broad niche so that they canlive in different habitats, they
can feed on different things.They're more robust, if you
like, ecologically.
And they are prospering and theheron species are amongst those
groups which are. The otherthing that you mention is
habitat restoration, and this isone of the things which

(05:28):
consistently frustrates me, andthat is that we deal, you know,
constantly with all of theproblems.
But what we have to remember isthat we have so many solutions,
you know, we have the capacityto rebuild, restore, reinstate,
reintroduce the cranes and youknow, it's just that we're not
doing it broadly enough andwe're not doing it rapidly

(05:50):
enough. We're not short of ideasand we're not short of ideas
that have been tried and tested.
We're short of them, themotivation, the energy and the
determination to, to make surethat they're happening, you
know, in, in real time, andthat's, you know, for me, that's
incredibly frustrating becauseif I thought there was no hope,
I just, you could be forgivenfor giving up.

(06:10):
There is hope. There's lots ofhope. We have the capacity to
address everything from ourreduction in fossil fuels, our
reduction in dependence on meatand dairy in our diet, you know,
we can build better houses forpeople to live in that are
better insulated and servewildlife as well as people.
You know, we can reinstatehabitats in, in pretty short
order. I mean, you're, you're atWicken, you've seen the great

(06:32):
Fen project and how much that'sachieved in a relatively short
space of time. We can do it. Ifyou build it they will come.
We've got to get building.

AJAY TEGALA (06:42):
Because it doesn't take long. No, you just make a
few positive steps in the rightdirection.

CHRIS PACKHAM (06:46):
Yeah, and we learned so quickly. I mean, look
at Wicken, you know, block up afew ditches, do some planting
here, bring in some, you know,grazing, herbivores, shape
public access. I mean, there's alot of work being done there.
That's not underestimate, youknow, how much toil and trouble
the staff and volunteers havegone to to achieve it. We're not
diminishing that.

(07:07):
It's fantastic. The vision isfantastic as well.

AJAY TEGALA (07:24):
The great thing about all these organizations
like the RSPB, the BTO, is theamount of youth involvement
there is now as well.
And for me, I'm really upliftedby, I mean, for example, there's
an 11 year old near me who'sjust done a fenathlon raising
over 4 grand for the RSPB, theWildlife Trusts, and the
National Trust. And seeing thearticulate and passionate voices

(07:47):
of youngsters standing out fromthe crowd, that's really
inspiring for me.

CHRIS PACKHAM (07:51):
Well, that does give me some hope, although I
would like to see changes in theway that that's, perceived. You
know, I've grown rather tired ofpeople saying we listen to young
people, it's patronising.
What, what we need to do isempower young people. Make them
part of a decision-makingprocess, because young people
are clear seeing, clearspeaking, and they're not risk

(08:15):
averse, and it's the last ofthose characteristics which is
the most important. And youknow, it's, it's essentially,
you know, I'm 64 years old. Iknow that my future is now
increasingly limited. But when Ilook at 6 year olds, the
future's theirs.
One stat that I I love and itand it says a lot about, you
know, the power of youth toachieve great things is that in

(08:37):
1969, long before your time, butI was alive, Neil Armstrong
stepped out of a spacecraft andlanded on the moon. And
obviously it was a momentousoccasion for humankind.
When when the rocket took off inAmerica at Cape Canaveral, the
average age of the peopleworking that day in that place

(09:01):
was 25. 25. Now why was that?Well, there was a lot of old
expertise there.
If you look at the, if you lookat the, you know, the film at
the time. In the central controlroom, there were a lot of people
who were older than 25, but inall of the rooms that were off
of that, the people that weremanaging that. The
troubleshooters, they were allyoung people. They were quick,

(09:24):
they were bright, and they wereprepared to light the blue touch
paper under a giant fireworkthat fired 3 incredibly
important astronauts into space.
What the world needs now interms of environmental care is
young people making decisionsabout their future. Let's stop
listening to young people. Let'slet young people make real

(09:46):
decisions and shape realoutcomes.

AJAY TEGALA (09:49):
Fantastic.
Just before Chris headed back tohis busy filming schedule, we
took a moment on a track withtrees arching either side to
just listen to the birds thatsurrounded us.

CHRIS PACKHAM (10:08):
Well, it's not the best time of day to listen
to birdsong, but nevertheless,there's sort of, there's
Twitterings, isn't there? I canhear a blackbird going
somewhere.
Robins. The one thing I will sayis that when I got into birds, I
was 12 years old, so that wouldhave been in the early 70s and

(10:32):
it was just so much noisier. Doyou know, I remember going out
and it was like confusing. Therewere so many birds singing at
the same time. It's like tryingto decipher who was doing what
in an orchestra.
And I think that one of theproblems we have is that we take
these things for granted, youknow, all I can say to All of
you youngsters out there, all ofyou youngsters, is don't take
any of this for granted, youknow, suck up every moment,

(10:55):
listen to every song, watchevery moon rise, you know, every
time you see a butterfly, get onyour knees, get down and look at
it.

AJAY TEGALA (11:13):
My conversation with Chris was just as wonderful
as I'd hoped it would be. I wasreally pleased to hear him talk
about youth empowerment. He madethat very clear. And I felt
almost a bit sheepish abouttalking about some of my own
wildlife experiences next tothis nature legend.
But when he really endorsed thework to restore habitats, like
at Wick And Fen, and when hetalked about the reserve that

(11:34):
I've worked on and that I loveso much and hear him really
champion it, that was such agreat feeling. And I, yeah, I
could, I almost had to stopmyself from jumping up and down
at that point.
And so, yeah, I felt kind ofwiser from my chat with him, but
I felt, yeah, uplifted, there'ssome tough things that we talked
about, but there's so muchpositivity that I'm really

(11:55):
focusing on. And yeah, I justfeel, I feel better for for
talking to him.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of Wild Tales with me,
Ajay Tagala. Video podcasts fromthe National Trust can be found
on our YouTube channel or onSpotify. While you're there, why
not check out our history showBack When? Or for smaller ears,

(12:19):
Ranger Rae and the Wildlifers.See you next time.