October 5, 2024 • 30 mins
A Leader amongst 23,000 Grandmothers!
Jolly Babirukamu, affectionately known as Kaaka Jolly – is one of those leaders who brings light into the world – motivating and mobilizing with boundless energy and deep insights. She is a teacher, Grandmother of 30 grandchildren, and a leader amongst the community of 23,037 Grandmothers at Nyaka, Uganda (founded by visionary Twesigye Jackson Kaguri 23 years ago, first known to me as an early partner of the Stephen Lewis Foundation). Nyaka is a community-led organization that was founded in response to the devastating impact of HIV/AIDS, and provides free education to children who have lost one or both parents to AIDS, is a part of the Grandmothers Consortium in Uganda, and with resilient and compassioante leaders like Kaaka Jolly, will never waver.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host of
Wisdom at Work.
Older women, elder women andgrandmothers on the move, the
podcast that kicks oldstereotypes to the curb.
Come meet these creative,outrageous, authentic,
adventurous, irreverent andpowerful disruptors and
influencers older women andgrandmothers, from the living
(00:20):
room to the courtroom, makingpowerful contributions in every
walk of life.
Welcome back everyone to Wisdomat Work.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's wonderful to have you here, and today I have
the great pleasure of speakingto someone who has been a deep
source of inspiration to me formany, many years.
Pata Jolly is from Niaka inUganda.
You've heard me talk aboutNiaka before.
It's a community-basedorganization that has two
(00:49):
elementary schools and a highschool.
It started in Niaka, uganda.
The school is mostly populatedby children who were orphaned by
AIDS in the nadir of the AIDSpandemic in sub-Saharan Africa,
and Niaka has an extraordinarycommunity that has been built up
around it.
I'm going to let Kakajali tellyou all of that.
Kakajali herself is a teacher,and was a teacher for many years
(01:13):
, and is a grandmother with fivebiological children.
There are five adopted children.
At the height of the AIDSpandemic there were many other
children in your care, alsograndchildren to you and 30
grandchildren with more on theway, I understand.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And is that?
Did I have the numbers right?
Is that right?
30 grandchildren?
Yes, you're like thegrandmother, extraordinary.
You're the grandmother not justto your own grandchildren, but
to many, many more children atNiaka, but to many, many more
children at Niaka, and Kakajaliis one of the leaders in Niaka
of this, really this wholecommunity of grandmothers that
(01:56):
has been born at Niaka andnurtured a movement of
grandmothers, over 23,000grandmothers, 92,000 or more
children.
And so, kakajali, welcome toWisdom at Work podcast.
It is a joy to have you herewith me.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I know that you are a leader and a role model and a
matriarch, a maternal figure toso, so many people.
Where did your journey start?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Oh, my journey started a long way back, when I
first lost my relatives, mybrothers and sisters, through
HIV AIDS and I'm lucky to havesurvived.
So I stood up to take care ofthese children that were
vulnerable, didn't have parentsand actually some of them didn't
(02:43):
even have grandmothers takecare of them.
So actually I didn't take inonly five children, I took in 10
children.
So I had my five biologicalchildren and 10 adopted children
.
So at one time I had 15children in my house, taking
care of them, feeding them,taking them to school, mentoring
them, parenting them.
(03:04):
Don't ask me how I raised thatresources.
That was another miracle.
But I had the great support ofmy husband and I want to say
thank you to the Lord becauseall these children have grown,
have finished university, havemarried, they are responsible
citizens and they have given megrandchildren and they are still
(03:25):
giving me more Now.
Right now I have about 30grandchildren, but I'm expecting
more grandchildren.
Wow, now, because I've put mychildren to school, they've been
able to take care of their ownchildren.
So I'm a privileged grandmotherin that I don't have children
that I stay with.
They only come home to visitand go back.
(03:47):
But when I looked back in thevillage, I realized there were
so many grandmothers strugglingwith grandchildren, and I once
found out that I was aprivileged grandmother and so I
had to take up the heart oftaking care of these
grandmothers.
I had to take up the heart oftaking care of these
grandmothers, and that is howthe story started with me and
(04:07):
Jackson in the year 2007, whenwe started the grandmothers in
Nyaka.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, and that's when I first had the great gift of
meeting all of you.
And one of the things that hasbeen so hard to imagine and so
important about the work thatyou do and that niyaka does is
how did you survive the grief?
What I've always been amazed atwith the grandmothers so many
grandmothers is that it isn'tlike you.
You lost your children and thenyou had time to grieve because
(04:40):
the next day you had five, ten,fifteen children under a roof,
suddenly taking care of thesechildren, when they had never
expected to have to raiseanother whole generation of
children.
How did you and thegrandmothers manage through that
grief and at the same time, youknow, look after all of these
(05:01):
children and figure out how tomove forward?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, at that time it was very difficult to say you
go through different stages ofgrief because you have these
children who are grieving andyou're saying you're grieving
your relatives, and then you gotake up these children.
It was hard.
It was hard and I cannot reallytell you what happened.
I just don't know.
It was a miracle.
(05:24):
I don't know how, because Ikept on taking in more children.
The 10 children are the onesthat I had under my roof, but I
had other children that I wassupporting outside my roof and
what I did had to be, I think,to be more of a support than
grieving, because I had thesechildren grieving and I had to
(05:45):
give them comfort.
I had to provide the motherfigure to them and I want to
thank God that my husband wasthere to provide the father
figure to these children.
And you know the African settingthe children are raised by the
village.
So we had the support systemfrom the relatives.
(06:05):
At least some of the relativeswould come in to say hello, to
support and take them forholidays and give them comfort.
But the big source ofaspiration was my husband, that
he really stood with me andhelped me to support these
children.
We put aside our own grievingbecause of our own relatives,
(06:27):
but then we had the challenge ofthese children that were
grieving, that needed theirparental care.
They needed their love and alsomentoring.
And you know, when you bring inchildren that are not your own,
that you've not bonded withright from the beginning, you've
got to struggle.
So one other thing I had tostruggle was try to bond with
them, to be their real mother,and it was not easy.
(06:50):
It was not easy, but the goodthing is that in Africa children
are raised by the village, so Iwas not alone.
So we had the support.
I even had the support from thechurch that came in to support
me, and so some of the childrenwere going to church and going
for youth camps and beingmentored by other members.
And I have a group of mothersunion that also came in to
(07:14):
support me in parenting skillsand all other issues.
So it wasn't easy.
It wasn't easy, but God did itfor me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And so tell me then, how did it grow from just that
you know small group of childrenand grandmothers to what it is
today?
I mean, the truth is that Ithink very often when people
think about the AIDS pandemic,they're not thinking about
grandmothers, right?
We know that very often thestory of the grandmothers is not
told.
So how was it that you came tounderstand, ewan Jackson and the
(07:47):
others, that this was happeningeverywhere and that there were
thousands of grandmothers thatneeded to come together?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, we needed to bring these grandmothers
together.
To start with, we had thesegrandmothers who were grieving,
didn't know what to do withtheir grandchildren.
Some of the grandchildren werenot going to school, so we thank
God that Tiniaka was able totake a few of them.
One of the things is, in Africagrandmothers do take care of
grandchildren but you know, theyare not really recognized by
(08:16):
the community.
They are unsung heroes, youknow, and sometimes they are not
really considered to be allthat valuable and yet they have
the burden of taking care of thegrandchildren.
So I want to thank God thatStephen Lewis Foundation came in
to be able to support us tostart that groups and we started
(08:38):
in the fewer groups andgathering the grandmothers
together, taking them intotraining.
Remember, there's a generationgap between the grandmother and
the grandchildren.
So we gave them parentingskills and some of the
grandmothers have picked ongrandchildren who are HIV
positive that were infected bythe parents.
So we had to talk about HIVAIDS to the grandmothers.
(09:00):
We could talk about ARVs andhome-based care and the kind of
nutrition that is right for thegrandchildren.
But one other thing is we hadto talk about leadership to the
grandmothers and this really wasan inspiration.
When they learned aboutleadership skills, they were
able to go back and have animpact in the community they
(09:21):
themselves.
We had a few grandmothers thatwere able to train, but were
able to send these grandmothersback into the community to train
not only the grandmothers butall other women, especially in
the issues of nutrition,agricultural skills.
And you know one of the bestthings that we did we trained
them to be change agents.
(09:41):
And they really went back intothe community to be role models,
to be opinion leaders, andthey've taken up leadership and
now the work of grandmothers isnow recognized in the community.
But one of the things that wereally was was to give them hope
.
Most of them had lost hope.
You know like raise the stigmaback to them.
(10:02):
You know having the stigma oflosing your child, your children
, and now you have grandchildren, and some of them are HIV
positive.
But now they know that ARVs cansustain these grandchildren.
The only challenge is sometimesthey walk at distance to the
nearest health center to picktheir drugs.
(10:23):
But that one we have alsoadvocated through the government
.
One of the things is that I'man advocate of grandmothers, so
one of the things we have askedthe government to make sure that
they stock the drugs in thenearest health centers for these
grandmothers, not only for HIV,aids, but all other issues and
(10:43):
also non-communicable diseasesfor the grandmothers.
But the most inspiring thing isbringing these grandmothers
together.
They sit together, they sharetheir joys and they share their
challenges.
Those who want to cry cry, butthose who want to laugh, and one
of the things I have told themis try to laugh about eight
(11:05):
times a day.
So when they come together theyreally sit down and crack jokes
and laugh.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Amazing.
And why do you think it'simportant to laugh eight times a
day?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Oh, one of them is to make them keep looking young,
get rid of the wrinkles and alsotake away the stress.
Take away the stress from them,yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And I want to hear about that a little bit because
I don't think people can evenimagine the stress for a lot of
these grandmothers.
They lost their adult childrento AIDS and I hear you that now
the grandmothers have steppedinto roles of leadership and
change agents.
But of course it's stillstressful and I wonder you know
(11:51):
how are you talking about that?
What are the kinds of stressesthat the grandmothers are
dealing with and how does theleadership training help them
move to a different place?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Of course the kind of stress that grandmothers are
going through is getting schoolfees for the children,
supporting them at home.
You know, food, shelter, as youcan remember that some of the
grandmothers didn't have aproper shelter.
They didn't have homes, kitchenand petri-trims, and so when
(12:20):
Stephen Lewis came in to supportand putting up houses for the
grandmothers, kitchen andpetri-trims, I think that
removed a bit of the stress onthem.
And when we also providedagricultural implements like
holes, they were able to growfood.
And also through training, whenwe trained them into
(12:42):
agricultural skills, they nowhave improved and now also again
with a revolving fund that hascome into their lives.
We have a village bank and sothe grandmothers are able to
borrow money at 1%.
They are able to do some smallbusiness, because one of the
things that the grandmotherswere actually economically
(13:04):
dependent on the children.
Now the children they weredepending on are gone.
So they really had lost hope,but now we've trained them to be
economically independent bydoing small businesses, by
growing food and into leadershipskills and doing crafts, so
(13:25):
they're able to earn somethingthat has taken a bit of economic
stress on them.
So I think the grandmotherslowly by slowly not all,
because poverty is still inthere.
They cannot really meet eachand everything that they need,
but at least there's somethingthat is in their lives that has
(13:45):
changed their mind, theirlifestyle.
And also, when we are training,we are training them to give
them life skills, to know whatto do and not what to do, and
also to know their rights,Because one other thing that was
bringing stress in their liveswas grabbing of their property.
You know their grandmothersbecause she's very old.
(14:06):
People come and grab theproperty, come and take away the
land and sometimes you find thegrandmother is homeless.
So those are some of the fewchallenges that we're going
through and we're bringingstress.
But now that we train themabout their rights, they're able
to stand and be firm on theirrights.
We have even trained them howto write a will, Because some of
(14:29):
them were worried that if shedies, what is going to happen to
the grandchildren.
So they're able to write willsand they know that once the
grandmother is not there, stilltheir children are secure in
their homes.
So I think those are basicallya few things that we try to do
to help them to relieve thestress.
To do are telling them torelieve the stress.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
How many places in the world can you think of where
you have so many older womenwho are stepping into positions
of head of household, parent,matriarch, leader in the
community?
Does it change the culturearound leadership, around
women's leadership?
For the girls, what do youthink is different?
Kakajole?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
What I know in Uganda , the government at least, is
giving in women more opportunityto leadership.
Now we have the vice presidentis a woman, the prime minister
is a woman we have so many womenand then we have the local
level leaders that are women.
But what I know is thegrandmothers now worry about the
rights of the girls,particularly being, you know,
(15:29):
being mentored, being put toschool, and I'm glad the
grandmothers have grasped thisand they are really fighting for
it.
And one of the things that weare fighting is early
pregnancies and early marriages,and we have the grandmothers
that are really fighting.
There's a clear awareness aboutthe early marriages and early
(15:50):
pregnancies.
So we have the grandmothersthat are really in fighting for
the rights of these young girlsso they're able to grow, go
through school and be able tofight for their own rights.
I'm glad that at least two orthree girls that have gone
through Nyaka and finisheduniversity and one of them is a
lawyer who is fighting for thegirls' rights, and I think this
(16:14):
is now taking back to Nyaka andto the community.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It doesn't surprise me that some of the young women
who are growing up through Nyakathat they're becoming human
rights lawyers and advocates andteachers because they see the
grandmothers in these positionsof leadership.
It must make them proud oftheir grandmothers and I wonder
how do you see grandmothers asdifferent leaders than other
leaders in the community?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, the unfortunate thing, most of the grandmothers
are not educated.
But what we did, one of thethings, was to train them so
that they're able to gainself-esteem and self-confidence,
and because they have that, ithas helped them to go into
leadership.
But the only challenge is thatthey're not able to read and
write, and those who are able toread and write cannot speak
(17:02):
English.
They cannot use the locallanguage, so the leadership is
only limited within thecommunities.
They cannot go outside thecommunities to influence other
grandmothers.
But the good thing is that over23,000 grandmothers are in
three districts Kanunguru,konjiri and Rwanda and so we are
(17:23):
spreading.
We are just praying Me andJackson.
We are just dreaming.
We said we wish we could havegroups of grandmothers in every
other district.
I'm glad because I am a memberof the Grandmothers Consortium,
the chairperson, and we are alsocoordinating the other five
groups that are still in thefoundation support to advocate
(17:46):
for grandmothers' rights and inthe process, when you advocate
for grandmothers' rights, we'reable to reach out to
grandmothers.
It's still in them thatself-confidence and self-esteem
and personal development they'reable to stand firm and be able
to speak within theircommunities and impact kind of
leadership in them.
(18:07):
One of the things is that theymobilize their grandmothers and
do their training, the trainingwe give to them.
They take it back and train thegrandmothers, those who are not
able to have the opportunity tocome for that training.
Then one other thing is thatthere are government programs
that are going on.
We have what we call NADs thatone gives out, like seeds for
(18:29):
planting and other agriculturalskills and so forth.
So these grandmother leaders domobilize fellow grandmothers to
go into these governmentprograms.
One other thing is, of coursethey mobilize them like when we
had the COVID pandemic, they hadto mobilize them to go for
(18:51):
vaccination and, of course, keepon talking about HIV, aids and
the other things and one of thethings they do is train their
fellow grandmothers into properfeeding and home-based care.
So that is the kind of thingthey are doing within.
So they actually are rolemodels within the community,
(19:14):
opinion leaders and trainerswithin the community, much as
they may not be able to speakEnglish, but because they are
within the community they'reable to speak the same language.
So they have that impact onthem.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes, I know in the early days of the pandemic it
was so important when thegrandmothers were able to start
speaking about HIV and AIDS andspeaking about protection and
prevention and good health and Iknow that you had a lot to do
with that for grandmothers to betalking about this and to be
raising awareness.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Well, at the beginning some of them didn't
believe it was HIV and AIDS.
It's a kind of thing that waskilling the children.
They didn't believe it was HIVAIDS.
It's a kind of thing that waskilling the children.
They couldn't believe seeing ason dying and then their wife
dying Everybody, so theybelieved it was witchcraft.
Until we came into training andcreating awareness about this
HIV AIDS and the causes and thesymptoms that they are now aware
(20:08):
.
So that myth has gone.
Actually, one of the things thatwe are doing in the training
was domestic violence.
Now we came into genderviolence and there is a big
problem with gender violence andthey have really open rooms for
counseling.
Actually, last year we had awalk, so one of the towns create
(20:28):
awareness about gender-basedviolence and many people turned
up.
They are aware we have peoplewho follow up people who are
perpetrators in the case ofviolence and they are taken to
court or the police.
But what is important is thatwe have these counseling rooms
with trained counselors that ifyou are going through
(20:50):
gender-based violence issues,you're able to walk into this
room and you're going forcounselling negates.
So they have opened about threespaces for them, which is a
really great work that Iappreciate about Nyaka.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And do you find that there's been a change in
attitudes amongst thegrandmothers, just in terms of
having these conversationsbetween themselves, not just
with the younger generation, butalso the grandmothers
themselves?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
yeah, it has changed the attitude one, some of them
actually but we are stillstruggling with young women who
are still staying in abusiverelationships because of
economic dependence on thehusbands.
So those are the challengesthat we have at the moment.
We have a few of them.
(21:37):
They cannot come out, theycannot report to the police
because they are surviving anddepending on the husbands,
especially economic dependence,because they have nowhere to go.
But we are creating thatawareness and we are trying to
instill that confidence in themthat they need to report.
But on top of that, even halfof men also are being abused.
(21:59):
For them they are very quiet,they are not talking.
But all in all, I think thatthat program in Nyaka is really
doing great, not only within theNyaka setting but also within
the community.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
There aren't so many places to hear about this and
learn about this, but can youtell me how did the grandmothers
manage through COVID?
What were the challenges forthe grandmothers and how did
they overcome them as acommunity?
Because then you have twointersecting pandemics you have
HIV and you have COVID, and youhave the grandmothers who you
know.
Part of the strength of Niacaand for the children and for the
(22:38):
grandmothers, was the abilityto come together in communities.
So how did everybody managethrough the pandemic?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Now, one good thing is the government was very fast
on trying to cover the pandemicby stopping people's movements
and of course the biggestpandemic was within the cities
and towns.
So they stopped people frommoving from cities and towns to
their villages.
(23:05):
The pandemic did affect them,but one good thing is that we
were able to train them, talk tothe grandmothers about the
pandemic and about the use ofmasks.
Actually, we had to make masksfor the grandmothers and also
talk to them about not gathering.
So we stopped the grandmothersgatherings.
That time we were not meetingas groups and also limiting the
(23:31):
movements.
And when the vaccination cameinto place, we quickly mobilized
the grandmothers to go forvaccination.
But the good thing is we didn'thave serious issues of pandemic
in the villages because thegovernment was quick to stop the
movements of people from thecity where the pandemic had
(23:52):
started.
There were no movements, nobuses, no transport, nothing, so
people could not mix up butalso creating awareness within
the groups, within the communityand within the church setting.
And of course we stopped thechurch meetings as well.
There were no Sunday services,there were no other meetings,
(24:14):
but we praise God that we didn'tlose a grandmother through
COVID.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Wow, that's remarkable Not one grandmother
how amazing.
I want to ask you what you seefor the future.
I know that you have big plansand big dreams to reach many,
many, many more grandmothersacross Uganda.
What is the struggle now, andwhat is it that needs to happen
next?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
One of the good things I see about the future is
that most grandmothers havebeen trained, much as we have
lost also a lot of grandmothersbecause of old age, but we have
young grandmothers coming in andthey are being trained.
We have grandchildren that aregoing to school and there is
hope for the grandchildren wenow have children that are not
(24:54):
going to school and the factthat we have opened the village
bank an opportunity for economicindependence for these
grandmothers.
You know, in Uganda, in Africa,you can be a grandmother at age
30.
If you had a baby at 16 andyour child also gets a baby at
around 16, you're a grandmotherat age 32.
The good thing is we have a lotof young grandmothers in the
(25:17):
program that look at the pricingand, I think, are very
self-reliant when it comes toeconomic independence and they
are very focused about sendingchildren to school,
grandchildren to school.
So I can see there is a future,a bright future, but the issue
is probably the funding that isreducing and therefore less
(25:40):
programs for the grandmothersand the grandchildren.
But otherwise I can see there'sa big change compared to how we
started and where we are now Adrastic change, a drastic change
the grandmothers are now ableto do something on their own
Better homes built for them, andthose who don't have better
(26:01):
homes are now beginning to addsomething they can also put on
their own homes, put up theirown homes.
But what is important is nowmore children going to school
and I think I can see a brightergeneration to come.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Beautiful.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And, in terms of that brighter future, what lies
ahead for Nyaka?
What's next?
That is because we have so manygrandmothers out there.
When you remember the gatheringwe had in Entebbe 2015, with
all about 500 grandmothers theydidn't belong to Nyaka alone or
other groups.
We had gathered them fromdifferent groups, different
(26:53):
districts, and they went backhome hoping that we are going to
reach them out again and wehave not reached them out again.
Some of them are even callingme saying what happened.
We have our groups here and weneed training, we need revolving
fun and so forth.
So the future is if we couldreach out to a grandmother in
Uganda, then there will be aproper future for the
(27:15):
grandchildren, because most ofthe grandchildren are in the
hands of grandmothers.
We don't have only the ones whoare orphans, but we also have
who are vulnerable.
So that is one of thechallenges that we have, but if
we had really proper funding andsupport, I would see a bright
future for the grandmothers, andthat is my prayer.
Yes, that's a beautiful vision.
(27:36):
That is my prayer.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, that's a beautiful vision.
If you reach all thegrandmothers in Uganda, then for
sure we know that the qualityof life for the children will
improve.
And for the grandmothers?
What is it that changes forthem If all of them get reached
by the kind of programs that youdo?
With 23,000 grandmothers atNyaka, what does that do in the
community?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So if we really reach every grandmother throughout
the country, we'll see abrighter future for the whole
country, with grandchildrengoing to school, turning up to
be responsible citizens, Even ifthey don't finish university,
but if they finished like atertiary institute and they're
able to gain the skills andthey're able to manage to gain
(28:17):
something and something on theirown where the skills they learn
, Because not every child thatgoes into university that will
really survive.
We have those that are goinginto tailoring schools, into
plumbing and so forth, that theycan do something on their own
to earn a living.
If we could reach out tograndmothers, then we'll reach
(28:40):
out to our grandchildren andwe'll get a better future and
responsible citizens in thecountry.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Beautiful.
I love that vision.
I hope that it comes true oneday.
But also, you know, I feel likeif it's in your hands and
Jackson's hands and the hands ofthe children and the
grandmothers in Niaka, it has abetter chance of coming true.
You must have built so muchknowledge about how do you build
a whole movement ofgrandmothers.
It's really extraordinary.
We have to make sure that thestory of your life is written in
(29:08):
a book.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yes, I'm writing a book.
Yes, I'm not sure when it willcome out, but soon I think.
Maybe this year that book willcome out.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I can't wait.
I cannot wait Because there areso many lessons to learn from
you, kakajoli, and it's alwayssuch a pleasure to speak to you.
I thank you so much for yourtime.
When your book comes out, Iwant to speak to you again.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Okay, it will be a pleasure.
Thank you, ilana, forconsidering to talk to me and,
please, special greetings to theStimulus Foundation family and,
on behalf of the grandmothers,we say thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
God bless you and to you too, kakajoli, I'm Ilana
Lansford-Lewis, your host ofWisdom at Work, older women,
elder women and grandmothers onthe move.
To find out more about me orthe podcast, you can go to
wisdomatworkpodcastcom, formerlygrandmothers on the move, and
you can find the podcast at allyour favorite places to listen
to them.
(30:02):
Tune in next week.
Thanks and bye.
Bye for now.
I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host of
Wisdom at Work.
Older women, elder women andgrandmothers on the move, the
podcast that kicks oldstereotypes to the curb.
Come meet these creative,outrageous, authentic,
adventurous, irreverent andpowerful disruptors and
influencers older women andgrandmothers, from the living
(00:20):
room to the courtroom, makingpowerful contributions in every
walk of life.
Welcome back everyone to Wisdomat Work.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's wonderful to have you here, and today I have
the great pleasure of speakingto someone who has been a deep
source of inspiration to me formany, many years.
Pata Jolly is from Niaka inUganda.
You've heard me talk aboutNiaka before.
It's a community-basedorganization that has two
(00:49):
elementary schools and a highschool.
It started in Niaka, uganda.
The school is mostly populatedby children who were orphaned by
AIDS in the nadir of the AIDSpandemic in sub-Saharan Africa,
and Niaka has an extraordinarycommunity that has been built up
around it.
I'm going to let Kakajali tellyou all of that.
Kakajali herself is a teacher,and was a teacher for many years
(01:13):
, and is a grandmother with fivebiological children.
There are five adopted children.
At the height of the AIDSpandemic there were many other
children in your care, alsograndchildren to you and 30
grandchildren with more on theway, I understand.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And is that?
Did I have the numbers right?
Is that right?
30 grandchildren?
Yes, you're like thegrandmother, extraordinary.
You're the grandmother not justto your own grandchildren, but
to many, many more children atNiaka, but to many, many more
children at Niaka, and Kakajaliis one of the leaders in Niaka
of this, really this wholecommunity of grandmothers that
(01:56):
has been born at Niaka andnurtured a movement of
grandmothers, over 23,000grandmothers, 92,000 or more
children.
And so, kakajali, welcome toWisdom at Work podcast.
It is a joy to have you herewith me.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I know that you are a leader and a role model and a
matriarch, a maternal figure toso, so many people.
Where did your journey start?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Oh, my journey started a long way back, when I
first lost my relatives, mybrothers and sisters, through
HIV AIDS and I'm lucky to havesurvived.
So I stood up to take care ofthese children that were
vulnerable, didn't have parentsand actually some of them didn't
(02:43):
even have grandmothers takecare of them.
So actually I didn't take inonly five children, I took in 10
children.
So I had my five biologicalchildren and 10 adopted children
.
So at one time I had 15children in my house, taking
care of them, feeding them,taking them to school, mentoring
them, parenting them.
(03:04):
Don't ask me how I raised thatresources.
That was another miracle.
But I had the great support ofmy husband and I want to say
thank you to the Lord becauseall these children have grown,
have finished university, havemarried, they are responsible
citizens and they have given megrandchildren and they are still
(03:25):
giving me more Now.
Right now I have about 30grandchildren, but I'm expecting
more grandchildren.
Wow, now, because I've put mychildren to school, they've been
able to take care of their ownchildren.
So I'm a privileged grandmotherin that I don't have children
that I stay with.
They only come home to visitand go back.
(03:47):
But when I looked back in thevillage, I realized there were
so many grandmothers strugglingwith grandchildren, and I once
found out that I was aprivileged grandmother and so I
had to take up the heart oftaking care of these
grandmothers.
I had to take up the heart oftaking care of these
grandmothers, and that is howthe story started with me and
(04:07):
Jackson in the year 2007, whenwe started the grandmothers in
Nyaka.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, and that's when I first had the great gift of
meeting all of you.
And one of the things that hasbeen so hard to imagine and so
important about the work thatyou do and that niyaka does is
how did you survive the grief?
What I've always been amazed atwith the grandmothers so many
grandmothers is that it isn'tlike you.
You lost your children and thenyou had time to grieve because
(04:40):
the next day you had five, ten,fifteen children under a roof,
suddenly taking care of thesechildren, when they had never
expected to have to raiseanother whole generation of
children.
How did you and thegrandmothers manage through that
grief and at the same time, youknow, look after all of these
(05:01):
children and figure out how tomove forward?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, at that time it was very difficult to say you
go through different stages ofgrief because you have these
children who are grieving andyou're saying you're grieving
your relatives, and then you gotake up these children.
It was hard.
It was hard and I cannot reallytell you what happened.
I just don't know.
It was a miracle.
(05:24):
I don't know how, because Ikept on taking in more children.
The 10 children are the onesthat I had under my roof, but I
had other children that I wassupporting outside my roof and
what I did had to be, I think,to be more of a support than
grieving, because I had thesechildren grieving and I had to
(05:45):
give them comfort.
I had to provide the motherfigure to them and I want to
thank God that my husband wasthere to provide the father
figure to these children.
And you know the African settingthe children are raised by the
village.
So we had the support systemfrom the relatives.
(06:05):
At least some of the relativeswould come in to say hello, to
support and take them forholidays and give them comfort.
But the big source ofaspiration was my husband, that
he really stood with me andhelped me to support these
children.
We put aside our own grievingbecause of our own relatives,
(06:27):
but then we had the challenge ofthese children that were
grieving, that needed theirparental care.
They needed their love and alsomentoring.
And you know, when you bring inchildren that are not your own,
that you've not bonded withright from the beginning, you've
got to struggle.
So one other thing I had tostruggle was try to bond with
them, to be their real mother,and it was not easy.
(06:50):
It was not easy, but the goodthing is that in Africa children
are raised by the village, so Iwas not alone.
So we had the support.
I even had the support from thechurch that came in to support
me, and so some of the childrenwere going to church and going
for youth camps and beingmentored by other members.
And I have a group of mothersunion that also came in to
(07:14):
support me in parenting skillsand all other issues.
So it wasn't easy.
It wasn't easy, but God did itfor me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And so tell me then, how did it grow from just that
you know small group of childrenand grandmothers to what it is
today?
I mean, the truth is that Ithink very often when people
think about the AIDS pandemic,they're not thinking about
grandmothers, right?
We know that very often thestory of the grandmothers is not
told.
So how was it that you came tounderstand, ewan Jackson and the
(07:47):
others, that this was happeningeverywhere and that there were
thousands of grandmothers thatneeded to come together?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, we needed to bring these grandmothers
together.
To start with, we had thesegrandmothers who were grieving,
didn't know what to do withtheir grandchildren.
Some of the grandchildren werenot going to school, so we thank
God that Tiniaka was able totake a few of them.
One of the things is, in Africagrandmothers do take care of
grandchildren but you know, theyare not really recognized by
(08:16):
the community.
They are unsung heroes, youknow, and sometimes they are not
really considered to be allthat valuable and yet they have
the burden of taking care of thegrandchildren.
So I want to thank God thatStephen Lewis Foundation came in
to be able to support us tostart that groups and we started
(08:38):
in the fewer groups andgathering the grandmothers
together, taking them intotraining.
Remember, there's a generationgap between the grandmother and
the grandchildren.
So we gave them parentingskills and some of the
grandmothers have picked ongrandchildren who are HIV
positive that were infected bythe parents.
So we had to talk about HIVAIDS to the grandmothers.
(09:00):
We could talk about ARVs andhome-based care and the kind of
nutrition that is right for thegrandchildren.
But one other thing is we hadto talk about leadership to the
grandmothers and this really wasan inspiration.
When they learned aboutleadership skills, they were
able to go back and have animpact in the community they
(09:21):
themselves.
We had a few grandmothers thatwere able to train, but were
able to send these grandmothersback into the community to train
not only the grandmothers butall other women, especially in
the issues of nutrition,agricultural skills.
And you know one of the bestthings that we did we trained
them to be change agents.
(09:41):
And they really went back intothe community to be role models,
to be opinion leaders, andthey've taken up leadership and
now the work of grandmothers isnow recognized in the community.
But one of the things that wereally was was to give them hope
.
Most of them had lost hope.
You know like raise the stigmaback to them.
(10:02):
You know having the stigma oflosing your child, your children
, and now you have grandchildren, and some of them are HIV
positive.
But now they know that ARVs cansustain these grandchildren.
The only challenge is sometimesthey walk at distance to the
nearest health center to picktheir drugs.
(10:23):
But that one we have alsoadvocated through the government
.
One of the things is that I'man advocate of grandmothers, so
one of the things we have askedthe government to make sure that
they stock the drugs in thenearest health centers for these
grandmothers, not only for HIV,aids, but all other issues and
(10:43):
also non-communicable diseasesfor the grandmothers.
But the most inspiring thing isbringing these grandmothers
together.
They sit together, they sharetheir joys and they share their
challenges.
Those who want to cry cry, butthose who want to laugh, and one
of the things I have told themis try to laugh about eight
(11:05):
times a day.
So when they come together theyreally sit down and crack jokes
and laugh.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Amazing.
And why do you think it'simportant to laugh eight times a
day?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Oh, one of them is to make them keep looking young,
get rid of the wrinkles and alsotake away the stress.
Take away the stress from them,yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And I want to hear about that a little bit because
I don't think people can evenimagine the stress for a lot of
these grandmothers.
They lost their adult childrento AIDS and I hear you that now
the grandmothers have steppedinto roles of leadership and
change agents.
But of course it's stillstressful and I wonder you know
(11:51):
how are you talking about that?
What are the kinds of stressesthat the grandmothers are
dealing with and how does theleadership training help them
move to a different place?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Of course the kind of stress that grandmothers are
going through is getting schoolfees for the children,
supporting them at home.
You know, food, shelter, as youcan remember that some of the
grandmothers didn't have aproper shelter.
They didn't have homes, kitchenand petri-trims, and so when
(12:20):
Stephen Lewis came in to supportand putting up houses for the
grandmothers, kitchen andpetri-trims, I think that
removed a bit of the stress onthem.
And when we also providedagricultural implements like
holes, they were able to growfood.
And also through training, whenwe trained them into
(12:42):
agricultural skills, they nowhave improved and now also again
with a revolving fund that hascome into their lives.
We have a village bank and sothe grandmothers are able to
borrow money at 1%.
They are able to do some smallbusiness, because one of the
things that the grandmotherswere actually economically
(13:04):
dependent on the children.
Now the children they weredepending on are gone.
So they really had lost hope,but now we've trained them to be
economically independent bydoing small businesses, by
growing food and into leadershipskills and doing crafts, so
(13:25):
they're able to earn somethingthat has taken a bit of economic
stress on them.
So I think the grandmotherslowly by slowly not all,
because poverty is still inthere.
They cannot really meet eachand everything that they need,
but at least there's somethingthat is in their lives that has
(13:45):
changed their mind, theirlifestyle.
And also, when we are training,we are training them to give
them life skills, to know whatto do and not what to do, and
also to know their rights,Because one other thing that was
bringing stress in their liveswas grabbing of their property.
You know their grandmothersbecause she's very old.
(14:06):
People come and grab theproperty, come and take away the
land and sometimes you find thegrandmother is homeless.
So those are some of the fewchallenges that we're going
through and we're bringingstress.
But now that we train themabout their rights, they're able
to stand and be firm on theirrights.
We have even trained them howto write a will, Because some of
(14:29):
them were worried that if shedies, what is going to happen to
the grandchildren.
So they're able to write willsand they know that once the
grandmother is not there, stilltheir children are secure in
their homes.
So I think those are basicallya few things that we try to do
to help them to relieve thestress.
To do are telling them torelieve the stress.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
How many places in the world can you think of where
you have so many older womenwho are stepping into positions
of head of household, parent,matriarch, leader in the
community?
Does it change the culturearound leadership, around
women's leadership?
For the girls, what do youthink is different?
Kakajole?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
What I know in Uganda , the government at least, is
giving in women more opportunityto leadership.
Now we have the vice presidentis a woman, the prime minister
is a woman we have so many womenand then we have the local
level leaders that are women.
But what I know is thegrandmothers now worry about the
rights of the girls,particularly being, you know,
(15:29):
being mentored, being put toschool, and I'm glad the
grandmothers have grasped thisand they are really fighting for
it.
And one of the things that weare fighting is early
pregnancies and early marriages,and we have the grandmothers
that are really fighting.
There's a clear awareness aboutthe early marriages and early
(15:50):
pregnancies.
So we have the grandmothersthat are really in fighting for
the rights of these young girlsso they're able to grow, go
through school and be able tofight for their own rights.
I'm glad that at least two orthree girls that have gone
through Nyaka and finisheduniversity and one of them is a
lawyer who is fighting for thegirls' rights, and I think this
(16:14):
is now taking back to Nyaka andto the community.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It doesn't surprise me that some of the young women
who are growing up through Nyakathat they're becoming human
rights lawyers and advocates andteachers because they see the
grandmothers in these positionsof leadership.
It must make them proud oftheir grandmothers and I wonder
how do you see grandmothers asdifferent leaders than other
leaders in the community?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, the unfortunate thing, most of the grandmothers
are not educated.
But what we did, one of thethings, was to train them so
that they're able to gainself-esteem and self-confidence,
and because they have that, ithas helped them to go into
leadership.
But the only challenge is thatthey're not able to read and
write, and those who are able toread and write cannot speak
(17:02):
English.
They cannot use the locallanguage, so the leadership is
only limited within thecommunities.
They cannot go outside thecommunities to influence other
grandmothers.
But the good thing is that over23,000 grandmothers are in
three districts Kanunguru,konjiri and Rwanda and so we are
(17:23):
spreading.
We are just praying Me andJackson.
We are just dreaming.
We said we wish we could havegroups of grandmothers in every
other district.
I'm glad because I am a memberof the Grandmothers Consortium,
the chairperson, and we are alsocoordinating the other five
groups that are still in thefoundation support to advocate
(17:46):
for grandmothers' rights and inthe process, when you advocate
for grandmothers' rights, we'reable to reach out to
grandmothers.
It's still in them thatself-confidence and self-esteem
and personal development they'reable to stand firm and be able
to speak within theircommunities and impact kind of
leadership in them.
(18:07):
One of the things is that theymobilize their grandmothers and
do their training, the trainingwe give to them.
They take it back and train thegrandmothers, those who are not
able to have the opportunity tocome for that training.
Then one other thing is thatthere are government programs
that are going on.
We have what we call NADs thatone gives out, like seeds for
(18:29):
planting and other agriculturalskills and so forth.
So these grandmother leaders domobilize fellow grandmothers to
go into these governmentprograms.
One other thing is, of coursethey mobilize them like when we
had the COVID pandemic, they hadto mobilize them to go for
(18:51):
vaccination and, of course, keepon talking about HIV, aids and
the other things and one of thethings they do is train their
fellow grandmothers into properfeeding and home-based care.
So that is the kind of thingthey are doing within.
So they actually are rolemodels within the community,
(19:14):
opinion leaders and trainerswithin the community, much as
they may not be able to speakEnglish, but because they are
within the community they'reable to speak the same language.
So they have that impact onthem.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes, I know in the early days of the pandemic it
was so important when thegrandmothers were able to start
speaking about HIV and AIDS andspeaking about protection and
prevention and good health and Iknow that you had a lot to do
with that for grandmothers to betalking about this and to be
raising awareness.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Well, at the beginning some of them didn't
believe it was HIV and AIDS.
It's a kind of thing that waskilling the children.
They didn't believe it was HIVAIDS.
It's a kind of thing that waskilling the children.
They couldn't believe seeing ason dying and then their wife
dying Everybody, so theybelieved it was witchcraft.
Until we came into training andcreating awareness about this
HIV AIDS and the causes and thesymptoms that they are now aware
(20:08):
.
So that myth has gone.
Actually, one of the things thatwe are doing in the training
was domestic violence.
Now we came into genderviolence and there is a big
problem with gender violence andthey have really open rooms for
counseling.
Actually, last year we had awalk, so one of the towns create
(20:28):
awareness about gender-basedviolence and many people turned
up.
They are aware we have peoplewho follow up people who are
perpetrators in the case ofviolence and they are taken to
court or the police.
But what is important is thatwe have these counseling rooms
with trained counselors that ifyou are going through
(20:50):
gender-based violence issues,you're able to walk into this
room and you're going forcounselling negates.
So they have opened about threespaces for them, which is a
really great work that Iappreciate about Nyaka.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And do you find that there's been a change in
attitudes amongst thegrandmothers, just in terms of
having these conversationsbetween themselves, not just
with the younger generation, butalso the grandmothers
themselves?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
yeah, it has changed the attitude one, some of them
actually but we are stillstruggling with young women who
are still staying in abusiverelationships because of
economic dependence on thehusbands.
So those are the challengesthat we have at the moment.
We have a few of them.
(21:37):
They cannot come out, theycannot report to the police
because they are surviving anddepending on the husbands,
especially economic dependence,because they have nowhere to go.
But we are creating thatawareness and we are trying to
instill that confidence in themthat they need to report.
But on top of that, even halfof men also are being abused.
(21:59):
For them they are very quiet,they are not talking.
But all in all, I think thatthat program in Nyaka is really
doing great, not only within theNyaka setting but also within
the community.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
There aren't so many places to hear about this and
learn about this, but can youtell me how did the grandmothers
manage through COVID?
What were the challenges forthe grandmothers and how did
they overcome them as acommunity?
Because then you have twointersecting pandemics you have
HIV and you have COVID, and youhave the grandmothers who you
know.
Part of the strength of Niacaand for the children and for the
(22:38):
grandmothers, was the abilityto come together in communities.
So how did everybody managethrough the pandemic?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Now, one good thing is the government was very fast
on trying to cover the pandemicby stopping people's movements
and of course the biggestpandemic was within the cities
and towns.
So they stopped people frommoving from cities and towns to
their villages.
(23:05):
The pandemic did affect them,but one good thing is that we
were able to train them, talk tothe grandmothers about the
pandemic and about the use ofmasks.
Actually, we had to make masksfor the grandmothers and also
talk to them about not gathering.
So we stopped the grandmothersgatherings.
That time we were not meetingas groups and also limiting the
(23:31):
movements.
And when the vaccination cameinto place, we quickly mobilized
the grandmothers to go forvaccination.
But the good thing is we didn'thave serious issues of pandemic
in the villages because thegovernment was quick to stop the
movements of people from thecity where the pandemic had
(23:52):
started.
There were no movements, nobuses, no transport, nothing, so
people could not mix up butalso creating awareness within
the groups, within the communityand within the church setting.
And of course we stopped thechurch meetings as well.
There were no Sunday services,there were no other meetings,
(24:14):
but we praise God that we didn'tlose a grandmother through
COVID.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Wow, that's remarkable Not one grandmother
how amazing.
I want to ask you what you seefor the future.
I know that you have big plansand big dreams to reach many,
many, many more grandmothersacross Uganda.
What is the struggle now, andwhat is it that needs to happen
next?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
One of the good things I see about the future is
that most grandmothers havebeen trained, much as we have
lost also a lot of grandmothersbecause of old age, but we have
young grandmothers coming in andthey are being trained.
We have grandchildren that aregoing to school and there is
hope for the grandchildren wenow have children that are not
(24:54):
going to school and the factthat we have opened the village
bank an opportunity for economicindependence for these
grandmothers.
You know, in Uganda, in Africa,you can be a grandmother at age
30.
If you had a baby at 16 andyour child also gets a baby at
around 16, you're a grandmotherat age 32.
The good thing is we have a lotof young grandmothers in the
(25:17):
program that look at the pricingand, I think, are very
self-reliant when it comes toeconomic independence and they
are very focused about sendingchildren to school,
grandchildren to school.
So I can see there is a future,a bright future, but the issue
is probably the funding that isreducing and therefore less
(25:40):
programs for the grandmothersand the grandchildren.
But otherwise I can see there'sa big change compared to how we
started and where we are now Adrastic change, a drastic change
the grandmothers are now ableto do something on their own
Better homes built for them, andthose who don't have better
(26:01):
homes are now beginning to addsomething they can also put on
their own homes, put up theirown homes.
But what is important is nowmore children going to school
and I think I can see a brightergeneration to come.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Beautiful.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And, in terms of that brighter future, what lies
ahead for Nyaka?
What's next?
That is because we have so manygrandmothers out there.
When you remember the gatheringwe had in Entebbe 2015, with
all about 500 grandmothers theydidn't belong to Nyaka alone or
other groups.
We had gathered them fromdifferent groups, different
(26:53):
districts, and they went backhome hoping that we are going to
reach them out again and wehave not reached them out again.
Some of them are even callingme saying what happened.
We have our groups here and weneed training, we need revolving
fun and so forth.
So the future is if we couldreach out to a grandmother in
Uganda, then there will be aproper future for the
(27:15):
grandchildren, because most ofthe grandchildren are in the
hands of grandmothers.
We don't have only the ones whoare orphans, but we also have
who are vulnerable.
So that is one of thechallenges that we have, but if
we had really proper funding andsupport, I would see a bright
future for the grandmothers, andthat is my prayer.
Yes, that's a beautiful vision.
(27:36):
That is my prayer.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, that's a beautiful vision.
If you reach all thegrandmothers in Uganda, then for
sure we know that the qualityof life for the children will
improve.
And for the grandmothers?
What is it that changes forthem If all of them get reached
by the kind of programs that youdo?
With 23,000 grandmothers atNyaka, what does that do in the
community?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So if we really reach every grandmother throughout
the country, we'll see abrighter future for the whole
country, with grandchildrengoing to school, turning up to
be responsible citizens, Even ifthey don't finish university,
but if they finished like atertiary institute and they're
able to gain the skills andthey're able to manage to gain
(28:17):
something and something on theirown where the skills they learn
, Because not every child thatgoes into university that will
really survive.
We have those that are goinginto tailoring schools, into
plumbing and so forth, that theycan do something on their own
to earn a living.
If we could reach out tograndmothers, then we'll reach
(28:40):
out to our grandchildren andwe'll get a better future and
responsible citizens in thecountry.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Beautiful.
I love that vision.
I hope that it comes true oneday.
But also, you know, I feel likeif it's in your hands and
Jackson's hands and the hands ofthe children and the
grandmothers in Niaka, it has abetter chance of coming true.
You must have built so muchknowledge about how do you build
a whole movement ofgrandmothers.
It's really extraordinary.
We have to make sure that thestory of your life is written in
(29:08):
a book.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yes, I'm writing a book.
Yes, I'm not sure when it willcome out, but soon I think.
Maybe this year that book willcome out.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I can't wait.
I cannot wait Because there areso many lessons to learn from
you, kakajoli, and it's alwayssuch a pleasure to speak to you.
I thank you so much for yourtime.
When your book comes out, Iwant to speak to you again.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Okay, it will be a pleasure.
Thank you, ilana, forconsidering to talk to me and,
please, special greetings to theStimulus Foundation family and,
on behalf of the grandmothers,we say thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
God bless you and to you too, kakajoli, I'm Ilana
Lansford-Lewis, your host ofWisdom at Work, older women,
elder women and grandmothers onthe move.
To find out more about me orthe podcast, you can go to
wisdomatworkpodcastcom, formerlygrandmothers on the move, and
you can find the podcast at allyour favorite places to listen
to them.
(30:02):
Tune in next week.
Thanks and bye.
Bye for now.
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