Welcome! This is ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast: Elderwomen, Older women and Grandmothers on the Move!
What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series... 'Age With Rights and Dignity' - 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world. These committed champions and advocates will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons, and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the rights of older persons into being - for you and me, no matter how old we are now!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in ourolder age?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:22):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions willshare with us why they care
about the rights of olderpersons and what they are doing
to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the Rights
of Older Persons into being,for you and for me, no matter
how old we are.
(00:43):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble HumanRights Day 2024 blog to find out
more that isA-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dot com and
sign the global petition for theUN Convention on the Rights of
(01:04):
Older Persons.
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us, enjoythis special initiative and my
thanks to Margaret Young, thefounder of Age Noble for
(01:27):
bringing this opportunity to usto hear from these important
guests who promote the humanrights and the dignity of older
persons the world over.
Today I have a really wonderfulguest to introduce you to.
Ms Frances Zinedine leftAustralia in 1970 to work at the
United Nations in New York,initially in the Population
Division of the Department ofEconomic and Social Affairs and
(01:50):
ended her career 31 years lateras Deputy Budget Director of the
United Nations Program Planningand Budget Division.
Upon her retirement, francesjoined the NGO community to
further promote the ideals ofthe United Nations.
She has a specific interest inand passion for gender, women's
rights, aging and older people'shuman rights.
(02:12):
Her knowledge of the UnitedNations system has been
particularly advantageous tocivil society organizations,
ngos that participate indeliberations in
intergovernmental meetings.
Frances was the former vicechair of the NGO Committee on
Aging in New York, the currentco-chair of the subcommittee to
promote a convention at the NGOCommittee on Aging in New York.
(02:35):
She also represents NGOCommittees on Aging as an
ex-official member of the GarupSteering Group.
She's a representative of theInternational Federation of
Aging to the United Nations inNew York.
She's a representative ofSeroptimus International to the
United Nations.
She's a key participant inestablishing the stakeholder
(02:56):
group on aging, as a member ofthe major groups and other
stakeholders recognized by theGeneral Assembly as
representative of NGOs involvedin sustainable development
issues and was actively engagedin the United Nations
intergovernmental negotiationsleading up to the adoption of
the 2030 Agenda for SustainableDevelopment, ensuring inclusion
(03:19):
of the concerns of older persons.
A member of the NGO Committeeon the Status of Women and
Frances was also a board memberof the Grey Panthers in New York
.
Frances, it's wonderful to haveyou with us today.
It's just a pleasure to havethis conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
It's a pleasure for me, too, to meet you and to
discuss this very importanttopic.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You know, I wanted to start, frances, by going a
little bit back in time beforewe talk about the Convention on
the Rights of Older Persons,because I'm completely
fascinated by your illustriouslife and I wondered where does
it all start for you, frances?
There's a trajectory andthere's sort of a logic I can
see to the kinds of thingsyou've been involved with around
human rights and women's rights, and now older persons and
(04:04):
older women's rights, but wheredoes this start for you?
How did you decide this waslife's work?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, my mother was a woman's rights promoter, I mean
from a family point of view asopposed to out there in the
public.
She always told us to beself-sufficient, to be
independent, and I actuallyremember her saying to me and my
sister marry as a last resort,and if you do get married,
(04:33):
always leave yourself a backdoor.
She was always very concernedabout you know what happens when
tragedy strikes.
For instance, you know, I wasborn during World War II and my
father was born during World WarII and my father was killed in
World War II, so she was leftwith three kids and so she had
to take care of herself and herchildren.
(04:55):
So she was quite outspoken.
But I didn't really start payingattention formally until I
worked at the UN.
And I came to the UN in 1970and believed in its ideals, and
over the years, I mean, therewas sexism in the UN as well.
I mean that's another story.
(05:15):
But after I retired from the UN, which was now almost 24 years
ago, I joined the NGO communitycivil society, because I
believed in the ideals of the UNand I wanted to continue,
primarily to keep my gray cellsmoving and be active, and so I,
(05:38):
first of all, I joined theRetirees Association of the UN,
tyrese Association of the UN,and through that organization I
met other organizations outthere promoting human rights,
women's rights, health issues, awhole lot of things.
I was always interested inwomen's rights, but into older
women's rights was anotherlittle step that I had to take.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Right.
I'm interested in that becauseI left the UN also about 20
years ago.
You know it was women's rightsand it was young women.
It was really a question ofinvisibility or just an
unknowingness and a lack ofthinking about it.
Certainly as soon as olderwomen were mentioned, or when
there were older women involvedin different meetings or issues,
everyone embraced the thoughtor the knowledge that older
(06:24):
women had a lot to contribute.
Just nobody talked about it.
It wasn't part of the lexiconaround not just rights but
around women in development,Absolutely.
For you, was it stepping intoyour older years that suddenly
made you realize that there arerights that are just not being
paid attention to and thatthey're just this isn't part of
the conversation, or was itsomething else that brought you
(06:45):
to it?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, throughout history, women have been ignored
anyway, right, never recognizedas having a voice or
contributing to anything of noteor anything at all.
We're just in the background,in the kitchen, raising children
and never giving credit foranything.
And that's you know 2000 years.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And at the UN.
I could see that, because ofthe different intergovernmental
bodies which discuss variouseconomic and social issues,
human rights issues and also interms of the staff, there were
rules.
At the UN there are twocategories the professional
women, who are at a higher level, and then there's support staff
(07:35):
, now the ones in theprofessional level, as they say
for staff coming from overseas,the non-American staff, you know
, from Australia, europe, latinAmerica, wherever.
They were entitled to homeleave every two years.
And the men were entitled tohome leave every two years.
But, believe it or not, the menwere entitled to home leave and
(07:59):
could take their families, andthe UN paid for their families
but not the women families, andthe UN paid for their families
but not the women.
And there was one Chinese womanwhose father signed the charter
.
She was a lawyer and she foughtfor this.
How come that men get thosebenefits but not women?
And another thing was that, asfar as the pensions were
(08:22):
concerned, when men retired andafter they died, their wives
would get half the pension.
That was part of theinternational civil service
package, right, but for women,after they retired and they died
, their husbands didn't.
Of course, when we fought andgot that.
(08:46):
You know some of the men wouldsnigger and laugh, ah, but it's
the men who benefited in the end.
So there were things like that.
I mean, I've sat in aconference room and because the
staff always had to be at themeetings, you know, ahead of
time so that we could be thereto assist the delegates and the
ambassadors and whatever, andyou know, a couple of us would
(09:08):
be sitting there and then themen, the delegates, come in and
they see, you know so few oftheir colleagues there.
But the first one will walk inand say, oh, nobody here.
I mean we're there, and it'ssort of little things like that.
You know and you notice, and ithappens time and time again.
And I must say I absolutelywelcomed the remarks that
(09:33):
Ambassador of New Zealand hadmade one time and I love telling
the story.
She was given the job ofcoordinating some negotiations,
was given the job ofcoordinating some negotiations
and she had walked in and one ofthe delegates, from a man, said
to her oh, would you get ussome coffee?
Without knowing that she wasthe coordinator, of course.
(09:57):
Anyway, she said, not a problem, what would you like?
So she went out and got therewere three men sitting there,
got the coffees back and thenshe sat at the head of the table
and started the process.
Did the men?
They were shocked and at theend they actually went.
And of course we were sittingnear the head of the table where
she was conducting thenegotiations and the delegate
(10:21):
who actually asked for coffeecame up and apologized and said
I'm terribly sorry.
And she said don't worry, maybetomorrow you'll get coffee for
me.
And you know it was justwonderful and gosh, you know
that was so dignified.
I learned a lot from that.
So those are sort of someexamples of my years at the UN.
(10:46):
But afterwards I actuallyattended Commission on the
Status of Women meeting at oneof the side events and it was
about older women and I heardabout the plight of these older
women in India and the woman whowas telling us this that she
was from India and she saidduring the pilgrimage to the
(11:09):
Ganges every year, so often alot of families leave the
grandmothers behind in the stepsof the temples so that the
priests there would take care,because the families didn't have
enough money to take care ofthe older folks.
I was so upset by that and ofcourse here am I learning about
(11:30):
these things, you know.
So the person who was actuallyconducting that side event she
had asked could somebody takenotes and I thought, okay, I'll
take some notes.
And then we got talkingafterwards and her name is Pat
(11:51):
Brownell, who is a professor atFordham University, and she
brought me into the subcommitteeon older women within the NGO
Committee on Aging and the restof history.
I guess how I started focusingon older persons as well,
following the establishment ofthe Open Ended Working Group on
Aging, which was established todiscuss the feasibility of
having an international legalinstrument to protect the rights
of older persons For me also,obviously older women, even
(12:16):
though the convention toeliminate all forms of
discrimination against women,there is a special
recommendation that deals witholder women, which is
non-binding.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
But yeah, so the combination of that and the
discussions that went on andwhich have completed, but still
no decision by the Open EndedWorking Group on Aging whether
or not to have a convention,still continuing my pursuit of
protection of human rights well,and I want to talk about that,
(12:51):
assuming that most peoplelistening to this don't know too
too much about it there is cdov, and then there's the
convention on the rights ofpersons with disabilities, of
course, as you say, has thisgeneral recommendation 27, which
is on yes and then.
So there are these what theycall human rights instruments,
these conventions that speak toor could speak to the conditions
of older women and things thatare relevant to older women's
(13:14):
rights, either directly orthrough other conventions.
Obviously, all issues affectolder women, but for this
question, I just want to sort ofhelp people to understand why
do we need a convention on therights of older persons?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, that's a question that many governments
are asking.
Right, it's very similar.
Older persons a special groupthat is ignored, overlooked are
barely counted.
Older persons are usually seenas a burden on society.
When they reach a certain age,they are of no value.
(13:52):
Their views are not taken intoaccount.
Just as an example, violenceagainst women and girls the data
goes up to 49.
Yes, and girls the data goes upto 49.
Yes, not beyond right.
(14:12):
Because why Up to 49,?
It's considered thereproductive years, when you
don't have any more children.
You're thrown out to pasture,so to speak.
When sexual and reproductivehealth and rights are discussed,
again, the cutoff date is 49.
Beyond reproductive age,women's health issues are
ignored.
In terms of health issues, itreally should be the biology of
(14:36):
a woman.
You know a woman ages, but shecan have hysterectomies,
mastectomies, cancer, and nobodypays any attention.
But mostly older persons areviewed as beneficiaries of
medical rehabilitation, if thereare benefits or social
protection.
We want older persons to beviewed as having rights, that
(15:01):
they are rights holders, likethe child is a right holder,
like a person with disability isa right holder.
So that's the key issue that wewant older persons to be
considered as rights holdersbecause they have been a
neglected group.
So it was pushed by Argentinaactually since the beginning of
(15:24):
time of the UN, back in 1948,during the adoption of the
Universal Declaration on HumanRights, argentina had actually
asked what about old age?
But by the time they haddiscussed the draft and about to
adopt it, it was decided thatthey didn't need to include
(15:47):
anything about age, even thoughthey included issues about
gender, ethnicity, etc.
Etc.
As you know, and they passedthe issue over to the Economic
and Social Council to discuss.
And aging issues have beendiscussed by the Economic and
Social Council since timeimmemorial, the Economic and
Social Council since timeimmemorial.
But Argentina kept pushing andthere was a major conference on
(16:15):
older persons in Vienna,followed up by another major
conference in Madrid, which cameout with the Madrid Plan of
Action on Older Persons which,much like the Beijing Platform
of Action, it was a blueprintfor programs but not discussing
the rights.
And many governments have toreport and do report every five
years on what they're doing forolder persons.
But certain governmentsArgentina and a number of Latin
(16:39):
American countries felt that itwas necessary to have a human
rights instrument which wasmandatory Once you ratify it,
you have to report on it andgovernments monitor it by the
Human Rights Council or by thecommittee that set up.
That's another reason why somegovernments don't like human
(17:00):
rights treaties.
They like to be shamed andblamed.
But the idea of having aconvention is also to codify the
rights of older persons in onesingle document, set
international definitions andminimum standards of practice,
which is what we want.
Yes, and UN Women.
(17:21):
We are in touch with UN Womenconstantly.
I think they've just come outwith a report, women in
Development report, and olderwomen are mentioned.
But just as an aside, we'veasked them about the data.
We're usually up to 49, asalways, and when we've checked
with them they said, well, wedon't have data.
(17:42):
And we've said but mention itthat you don't have data.
We exist.
Surely statisticians should.
It should be obvious to them,right?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
You would think I remember doing the work on HIV
and AIDS how stunned I was thatso many countries, including our
own, were simply not collectingany data of women over 50.
So it was as if older womendidn't have HIV.
And if you don't have anystatistics, then you have no
programs, you have no fundingand you have no policies.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It starts with the data.
So I completely agree with youand I think that's one of the
most compelling arguments, Ithink, around the convention
certainly in terms of women, butdefinitely in older persons
generally which is it sort ofshifts the conversation from
something that would be a benignrequest or a benevolent thing
for a government to do a goodthing or a good policy to being
(18:32):
contextualized as a human right.
And you've played manydifferent roles, as you say.
You worked at the UN, you'vebeen part of many different
groups the Optimists, the GreyPanthers, the International
Federation of Aging.
I mean, you have all of theseaffiliations, and so one of the
questions that we want to askyou, which I thought was very
interesting, was sort of who doyou think needs to be involved
in terms of a movement to bringabout a convention?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think we've not done enough to include everyone
else.
You know, persons withdisabilities need to be involved
.
Women need to be involved.
Indigenous people need to beinvolved.
Everyone need to be involved.
Indigenous people need to beinvolved, everyone.
Ngos in the health sector, inthe education sector, they all
need to be involved.
But in New York, for instance,these NGO committees that are
(19:17):
set up to facilitate NGOs withECOSOC status to participate in
UN deliberations, there's one onthe status of women, ngo
committing on the status ofwomen, which is very, very
active, and there's one on NGOcommitting on aging, on health,
on indigenous, on education,intergenerational.
(19:39):
So we've reached out and we'reactually trying to include them
much more and asking them toinclude us as well in their
discussions, right?
So yeah, it's absolutelyessential.
We need to include the youth.
They're the future.
Old, and I'm fighting for mygranddaughters.
I don't want them to befighting for the same things
(20:01):
that we're fighting for now,right?
I mean, how many years, forgoodness sake?
I mean there's a report out bythe Secretary General that says,
in terms of gender equality,it's going to take 286 years for
all countries to provide genderequality.
I mean that's outrageous.
It is 300 years.
(20:23):
I mean we've had 2,024 years ofgender inequality already.
Inequality, that's right.
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It doesn't seem unreasonable to be impatient at
this point.
Yeah, that's a piece around ustoo right, which is continuity
and memory and lived experiences.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, I mean not just health, but not being able to
have a bank account without aman signing for you.
I'm not.
My renewal of my Australianpassport in the 1980s had to be
signed by my husband.
I mean what I mean?
That's ridiculous.
And I remember it was sodifficult for my sister to get a
(21:05):
loan to buy a house because shewasn't married and she said I'm
living on my own, I'mresponsible for my own life and
my finances, I'm not going to bein debt like a married couple
might be in debt, you know, withchildren and school and
whatever.
I mean I'm not a risk.
And she had to get a man tosign.
(21:27):
Outrageous, I mean.
That's not so long ago, youknow.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
No it's not, and I think this is really interesting
because there are so many olderwomen activists and advocates
at the national level who havebeen fighting the good fight for
a long time around girls'rights, women's rights, older
persons' rights, older women'srights.
And sometimes there are theseinternational meetings, united
Nations meetings on climate, onwomen.
(21:52):
There are different fora thatare created by the international
community where it's reallyquite remarkable when women come
from the national level wherethey've been doing all of this
advocacy and they can reallyspeak to.
What are the constraints, whatare the challenges?
why do they need to be humanrights and not just lovely
things you're asking thegovernment to do for you, and I
(22:12):
wonder if you can talk a littlebit about how important it's
going to be for a convention onthe rights of older persons to
have older people from thenational level, who are sort of
experts in how to negotiaterights within their own
countries, to be talking aboutwhat they're experiencing and
having that feed into theprocess.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Well, I think there are many people who do good in
their communities, in theirfamilies, and there are some
people who look beyond their ownlives, in their own families,
and they look at what'shappening at the national level,
right at my country level, andthen there are people who look
(22:56):
beyond our borders to othercountries that we are thinking
about, our kindred spirits ofwomen elsewhere.
So at the international level,with the creation of the United
Nations at the internationallevel, what usually happens is
that if things don't work toowell at national levels, then
(23:20):
international cooperation comesinto play to set standards, to
talk about the rights of women,the rights of children, climate
change and all of that.
So the UN provides a mechanismfor all countries to view human
rights in a similar way.
But the basic human rights andthe dignity of the human person
(23:45):
must be respected, and that'swhat we're all fighting for.
Right, and these areinternational agreements on how
governments should be treatingevery individual.
So we want to push for thatFrom cradle to grave, as we say.
We don't want to leave anybodyout at all.
(24:08):
I think the CEDAW absolutelymade a huge difference.
No question, no question.
Governments had to look atwomen in a totally different
light, and the same with personswith disabilities.
My goodness, what a differencethat convention made about their
right to work, their right tohealth.
(24:28):
I mean it made such a hugedifference.
I mean we look at the personswith disabilities in a whole
different light.
Right, it was amazing, the CRPD, and I think we feel the same
about a convention for olderpersons, you know, to be looked
at differently, that we are ofvalue, we're not just tossed out
(24:52):
into pasture.
And for many women, for instance, where they've not been allowed
to go to school and thenwithout education they couldn't
get the work that they shouldhave to be independent.
And then they get old and theydon't have social protection.
So it's one whole lifetime ofdiscrimination.
(25:13):
And then when their husbandsdie, they lose their property
rights.
And it's that sort of thingthat international treaties
bring to the attention of notjust governments but everyone.
You know people suddenlyrealize, gee, I have rights and
I think that's really important.
(25:33):
It's always about the dignityof the human being and it's sad
that we need to have pieces ofpaper to recognize that.
And it's actually been veryinteresting to listen to the
debates on these issues.
You wonder whether it's theindividual who's speaking or is
(25:53):
it the government?
Who's speaking on this, andwhat do you think about your
grandmother?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think when you start to talk about a convention
, just even the talk about aconvention forces you to stop
for a moment and consider what'sthis about.
But, having said that, 14 yearsis a long time to be talking
about it, and so I think this isinteresting for people to know
about and understand.
Which is 14 years.
(26:18):
This wasn't to come to aconclusion to say absolutely
there should be one.
It's 14 years to discusswhether there should be one.
They weren't crafting aconvention.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
No, they were not.
It was whether to have one ornot.
The feasibility is the word ofa convention.
And only last year that theycame up with recommendations on
moving forward in terms ofoptions.
It was recognized, finally,that the existing treaties don't
cover all the aspects of therights of older persons, that
(26:52):
there were gaps on health issues, on education issues.
The idea was to what can bedone to fill those gaps.
So they came up with a numberof options.
The first option was, yes, weneed a separate treaty, legal
instrument to do this, and ofcourse this is all part of
intergovernmental negotiation,as you know, right.
(27:15):
And then there were otherrecommendations that may be okay
, we'll look at CEDAW and we canprovide a protocol to be added
to that.
Or we can look at CRPD andprovide a protocol which is, in
a sort of addendum, legallybinding, as is the convention
itself, that would deal witholder persons.
(27:36):
And then there are otherrecommendations that, okay, the
Universal Periodic Review ofHuman Rights per country, that
they should report more on olderpersons.
You know, hardly anybodyreports on older persons that we
would try and force governmentsto report, but of course that's
not going to take place either.
(27:57):
I mean the impact of a treaty,a convention, is huge.
It really is huge.
It changes government'sperspective, individuals' it
really is huge.
It changes government'sperspective, individuals'
perspective, businessperspective.
I mean everyone.
So there were the naysayers whodon't view human rights as
important.
And then there are those whosay we already have laws, we
(28:21):
already have legislation, wealready have programs, we don't
need to have another piece ofpaper.
And then there's some who aresort of sitting on the fence.
And then there's some who saywell, we have a program of
action, the Madrid InternationalPlan of Action, already.
So it's been a very, verydifficult road to convince our
(28:46):
governments to have this.
So now we've got to this stagewhen we're expecting the Human
Rights Council in Geneva toreview all of this, to consider
all these options and to come upwith a recommendation.
So a new round of advocacy willbe taking place in in Geneva as
(29:08):
opposed to in New York.
So it's still a lot of heavywork to be done.
It's a question of convincing.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I often found working on CEDAW that it's not so much
that people were cynical somepeople are cynical but it wasn't
so much cynicism.
It was that it was so importantto make the connection between
this pieces of paper that floataround the UN and how does that
connect to real people living incommunities and how does that
improve their lives.
How do we make thoseconnections real for people?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
number of treaties that set out what governments
are required to do to protectthe rights and dignity of the
human person, and we have tocall governments out.
You know, for children,education.
It's a right of a child to haveeducation.
And we're also saying how aboutlifelong learning?
Why is it, after you get olderthat you are not entitled to
(30:10):
have any education, with all thetechnology that's taking place
now?
I mean, what about educationfor older persons?
And if there's violence againstwomen, for instance and we know
all about that why are westopping only for those of
reproductive years?
(30:30):
There's violence and abuse ofolder women, of older persons,
and that's always overlooked.
It's incredible.
When we're talking about rights,I think we hope individuals
will say I think we hopeindividuals will say you know,
(30:51):
it's my right to have long-termcare, it's my right to have
various health care, it's myright not to be abused, whether
it's financial abuse, emotionalabuse, physical abuse.
I think we have to think abouteach other's rights and I'm
fighting for my granddaughters.
You know it's their right tohave education, obviously, and
if they're not getting it, youknow I should be suing the
(31:13):
government.
I don't know whether you'reaware, but a group of older
women in Switzerland recentlysued the government for not
complying with the environment,the climate agreement, in terms
of protecting their health, andthey took it to the European
Court.
And the European Court hasdecided against the government.
(31:35):
You know for them to say theycan sue their government.
It's a human right for them tobe protected from climate change
.
I mean, that's going to havehuge repercussions around the
world, right?
So I think people need tounderstand that.
Why are we electing thesepeople if they're not protecting
right and there's a flip sideto it.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Right Because one of the things that I've been so
motivated by, inspired by whichis it's quite extraordinary what
older women bring, not just ourfamilies as grandmothers or
loving elders, but and Frances,I think you embody it as well
what I notice is that olderwomen, the more active they get
in their communities arounddifferent issues or even at the
(32:16):
international level.
I've had so many interviewswhere women have said to me I
don't have anything to lose, Idon't care what people think
about me, I'm not worrying somuch about how I look or whether
I'll embarrass my children,whatever the thing is that was
holding you back or limitingyour voice.
And so I see a lot of olderwomen as just extraordinarily
powerful voices for reallyradical change and thought and
(32:38):
inquiry.
And so to me, there's a flipside around the struggle for the
convention, which is we need toprovide rights to older women
so that we can unleash theircontribution and see them as
vital contributors to ourcommunities, as they are into
our societies, and the more wethink of them as sort of
beneficiaries of largesse or thekindness of the state or the
(33:02):
kindness of the community, we'rereally missing out actually.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, and for people to listen.
But who are in power?
Men?
That's the problem, certainly.
I mean, still, the majority ofdelegates are men.
At the UN, we still haven't hada woman Secretary General.
Maybe next time, maybe thistime.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, maybe next time , maybe this time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
But I think what bothers me is that women spend
their entire life doing thingsfor others, the family.
Or when women started going outin the workforce, we were
saying now they're going to havetwo jobs right, one in the
family and outside.
You know, so it's just beentough.
(33:48):
And what you were saying aboutthe grandmothers in Africa who
took care of their grandchildrenbecause the parents have died
from AIDS, the grandmotherstotally overlooked.
They've saved a wholegeneration and yet they've been
overlooked.
And it's difficult, difficultfor us.
For me, I'm lucky, I have apension, I have housing, I have
(34:14):
food to eat, and in countries,for instance, they've done
studies on this when governmentshave actually provided some
sort of monthly subsidy to givethe older persons and guess who?
The older person spends themoney on Education for the
grandkids or food for the family, not for herself.
(34:36):
You know, when you read aboutthis and you think, the pure
generosity of women.
It's amazing, absolutelyamazing, and it brings tears to
one's eyes.
You know what they have tostruggle.
There was this wonderful storyof this group of older women in
(34:58):
Nepal and there was some moneythat was given to them, actually
by the NGO Committee on Agingto give literacy courses to
these older women.
I mean the freedom that justthat little bit of education
gave these women, because theydidn't have the chance as a
young person.
I mean it was incredible.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And if it were the state's obligation, if it were
the government's obligation?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Exactly the obligation to do it.
Yes, it's systemic change.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
That's when you really see the shift.
There's a lot to overcome toget to this convention.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
As you said in the beginning, they first have to
decide to have a conventionbefore drafting a convention.
So we have these steps.
We're watching the Human RightsCouncil very closely.
It's likely that they willaddress this in March next year,
2025.
So there will be quite a lot ofwork being done between now and
(35:54):
March to line up the supporters, because they're supposed to
review the recommendations thatwere made by the Open Ended
Working Group, the last sessionthis year, which will take us to
the next step.
So there's a lot of advocacythat will have to be done
between now and March.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
It's not much time.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Not much time and some urgency, too right, because
you can't say you know, there'ssort of different groups of
people the children, women,persons with disabilities.
It was all recognized that theyhad their rights violated.
I mean not just ignored butviolated.
And now there's another group,growing group of people of older
(36:37):
persons.
It's an aging world that theyhave had their rights violated
as well.
So that's why we need aconvention.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
What are the core messages?
Sort of advocacy points aboutolder women's rights, going into
this before March, and how canpeople follow along Frances?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
My two favorite words are to be vigilant and
persistent.
You know, we do not want to gobackwards, please.
We do not want to lose therights we've gained as younger
women.
We don't want to lose them aswe age.
If we are concerned about ourprogeny, our grandkids, we
(37:21):
should think about this.
We do not want them to losetheir rights to health, to
education, whatever, as they age.
We have to keep an eye on thingsthat worry us long-term care,
palliative care.
What is being done?
You know, we take care of youngpeople children, babies,
(37:44):
toddlers.
What happens to them when theyget older?
We have to think about thecontinuum of life.
We have to think about fromcradle to grave.
We all have a future, whetherit's five days of future, five
months of future or five decadesof future.
I'm 83 and I feel I have afuture and I'd like to have that
(38:07):
future protected and we have tothink about that.
The future belongs to everyoneand governments are responsible
for providing programs, care,education, whatever we've been
talking about until the day wedie die, and they shouldn't
(38:33):
forget that.
Not up to 49 or 59 or 69, untilthe day we die, and we have to
keep our eye on all of that.
There's a sustainabledevelopment goal that talks
about prevention of hunger.
Older persons actually appearsin one of those targets, but
what is being done about that?
Hunger of older persons?
Nobody pays any attention.
Hunger of children, yes, andrightly so, absolutely, but what
(38:56):
about the older person?
We're talking about the worthof a human being, ilana, from
beginning to end.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Wherever we see some inequity, whatever bothers us,
whether it's climate,environment, whatever it is
latch onto it you know, if thereare people who hear you and who
just want to continue to knowabout this, where do they go to
find out more about what'shappening at the Human Rights
Council, what's happening witholder persons' rights and
prevention?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Well, of course, different websites, but one
organization is the GlobalAlliance for the Rights of Older
People and that has a wonderfulwebsite that has links to
everything that you ever want toknow about older persons.
And at the UN, the Human RightsCouncil just Google Human
Rights Council and theCommission on the Status of
(39:45):
Women at the UN.
So there's a lot going on atthe UN, and at the UN they also
have a section on civil societyparticipation, so we can look at
that as well to see where civilsociety can participate and try
to make a change.
I think even if people justwork at the local level, it's a
(40:09):
good step.
It doesn't have to beinternational, but if you're
thinking a bit beyond the localcommunity level, definitely look
at the UN, and there aredifferent regional commissions
in different parts of the world.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
So final word, frances if the convention gets
drafted and it gets passed andit comes into being, what can
people look forward to?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I would imagine a world where all human beings are
respected, including the olderpeople, that older people are
not left out to starve, thatthey're not tossed out on the
street, that older persons feelthat they have a right to
(40:55):
receive care and programs fromthe government because the
government is doing a good job,that they will have decent
pensions, that they will be ableto work and not be tossed out
because of their age, becausemany people have to work to
survive and so many olderpersons work in the informal
(41:19):
sector.
They don't have pensions, theydon't have savings.
I would like a convention to beable to show the world that
everyone, including olderpersons, including those who
reach the end of their lives,that they matter.
I think that's very important,that everybody matters.
(41:41):
The fact that older persons areconsidered a burden you know
they're about to die anyway, sowhy waste money on them?
I want that attitude todisappear.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
The dignity of the individual,for me, is very, very important.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Makes so much sense, and we know too it's like women
getting the vote.
There was a time when it wasinconceivable that it would
happen.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Absolutely.
That's a great example.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yes, we waited for everybody to agree.
It would not have happened.
It had to be passed in lawfirst.
And now, look, we take itcompletely for granted.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I'd love to see a day when it's just an absolute
given.
We don't even have to thinkabout it yeah.
Some generation from now.
We just wake up and it's acomplete given.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yes, absolutely, that's so.
It's funny.
For years I used to say I hopeI get a convention before I die,
and now I'm saying I hope I geta decision to start hosting a
convention before.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
I die Well.
Thank you for this, frances.
I'm so glad we had thisconversation.
There's so much more to talkabout, but I'm very happy we
talked about it and verygrateful for your exceptional
contribution in so many ways tothe rights of all the people.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's been a pleasure.
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in ourolder age?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:22):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions willshare with us why they care
about the rights of olderpersons and what they are doing
to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the Rights
of Older Persons into being,for you and for me, no matter
how old we are.
(00:43):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble HumanRights Day 2024 blog to find out
more that isA-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dot com and
sign the global petition for theUN Convention on the Rights of
(01:04):
Older Persons.
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us, enjoythis special initiative and my
thanks to Margaret Young, thefounder of Age Noble for
(01:27):
bringing this opportunity to usto hear from these important
guests who promote the humanrights and the dignity of older
persons the world over.
Today I have a really wonderfulguest to introduce you to.
Ms Frances Zinedine leftAustralia in 1970 to work at the
United Nations in New York,initially in the Population
Division of the Department ofEconomic and Social Affairs and
(01:50):
ended her career 31 years lateras Deputy Budget Director of the
United Nations Program Planningand Budget Division.
Upon her retirement, francesjoined the NGO community to
further promote the ideals ofthe United Nations.
She has a specific interest inand passion for gender, women's
rights, aging and older people'shuman rights.
(02:12):
Her knowledge of the UnitedNations system has been
particularly advantageous tocivil society organizations,
ngos that participate indeliberations in
intergovernmental meetings.
Frances was the former vicechair of the NGO Committee on
Aging in New York, the currentco-chair of the subcommittee to
promote a convention at the NGOCommittee on Aging in New York.
(02:35):
She also represents NGOCommittees on Aging as an
ex-official member of the GarupSteering Group.
She's a representative of theInternational Federation of
Aging to the United Nations inNew York.
She's a representative ofSeroptimus International to the
United Nations.
She's a key participant inestablishing the stakeholder
(02:56):
group on aging, as a member ofthe major groups and other
stakeholders recognized by theGeneral Assembly as
representative of NGOs involvedin sustainable development
issues and was actively engagedin the United Nations
intergovernmental negotiationsleading up to the adoption of
the 2030 Agenda for SustainableDevelopment, ensuring inclusion
(03:19):
of the concerns of older persons.
A member of the NGO Committeeon the Status of Women and
Frances was also a board memberof the Grey Panthers in New York
.
Frances, it's wonderful to haveyou with us today.
It's just a pleasure to havethis conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
It's a pleasure for me, too, to meet you and to
discuss this very importanttopic.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You know, I wanted to start, frances, by going a
little bit back in time beforewe talk about the Convention on
the Rights of Older Persons,because I'm completely
fascinated by your illustriouslife and I wondered where does
it all start for you, frances?
There's a trajectory andthere's sort of a logic I can
see to the kinds of thingsyou've been involved with around
human rights and women's rights, and now older persons and
(04:04):
older women's rights, but wheredoes this start for you?
How did you decide this waslife's work?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, my mother was a woman's rights promoter, I mean
from a family point of view asopposed to out there in the
public.
She always told us to beself-sufficient, to be
independent, and I actuallyremember her saying to me and my
sister marry as a last resort,and if you do get married,
(04:33):
always leave yourself a backdoor.
She was always very concernedabout you know what happens when
tragedy strikes.
For instance, you know, I wasborn during World War II and my
father was born during World WarII and my father was killed in
World War II, so she was leftwith three kids and so she had
to take care of herself and herchildren.
(04:55):
So she was quite outspoken.
But I didn't really start payingattention formally until I
worked at the UN.
And I came to the UN in 1970and believed in its ideals, and
over the years, I mean, therewas sexism in the UN as well.
I mean that's another story.
(05:15):
But after I retired from the UN, which was now almost 24 years
ago, I joined the NGO communitycivil society, because I
believed in the ideals of the UNand I wanted to continue,
primarily to keep my gray cellsmoving and be active, and so I,
(05:38):
first of all, I joined theRetirees Association of the UN,
tyrese Association of the UN,and through that organization I
met other organizations outthere promoting human rights,
women's rights, health issues, awhole lot of things.
I was always interested inwomen's rights, but into older
women's rights was anotherlittle step that I had to take.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Right.
I'm interested in that becauseI left the UN also about 20
years ago.
You know it was women's rightsand it was young women.
It was really a question ofinvisibility or just an
unknowingness and a lack ofthinking about it.
Certainly as soon as olderwomen were mentioned, or when
there were older women involvedin different meetings or issues,
everyone embraced the thoughtor the knowledge that older
(06:24):
women had a lot to contribute.
Just nobody talked about it.
It wasn't part of the lexiconaround not just rights but
around women in development,Absolutely.
For you, was it stepping intoyour older years that suddenly
made you realize that there arerights that are just not being
paid attention to and thatthey're just this isn't part of
the conversation, or was itsomething else that brought you
(06:45):
to it?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, throughout history, women have been ignored
anyway, right, never recognizedas having a voice or
contributing to anything of noteor anything at all.
We're just in the background,in the kitchen, raising children
and never giving credit foranything.
And that's you know 2000 years.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And at the UN.
I could see that, because ofthe different intergovernmental
bodies which discuss variouseconomic and social issues,
human rights issues and also interms of the staff, there were
rules.
At the UN there are twocategories the professional
women, who are at a higher level, and then there's support staff
(07:35):
, now the ones in theprofessional level, as they say
for staff coming from overseas,the non-American staff, you know
, from Australia, europe, latinAmerica, wherever.
They were entitled to homeleave every two years.
And the men were entitled tohome leave every two years.
But, believe it or not, the menwere entitled to home leave and
(07:59):
could take their families, andthe UN paid for their families
but not the women families, andthe UN paid for their families
but not the women.
And there was one Chinese womanwhose father signed the charter
.
She was a lawyer and she foughtfor this.
How come that men get thosebenefits but not women?
And another thing was that, asfar as the pensions were
(08:22):
concerned, when men retired andafter they died, their wives
would get half the pension.
That was part of theinternational civil service
package, right, but for women,after they retired and they died
, their husbands didn't.
Of course, when we fought andgot that.
(08:46):
You know some of the men wouldsnigger and laugh, ah, but it's
the men who benefited in the end.
So there were things like that.
I mean, I've sat in aconference room and because the
staff always had to be at themeetings, you know, ahead of
time so that we could be thereto assist the delegates and the
ambassadors and whatever, andyou know, a couple of us would
(09:08):
be sitting there and then themen, the delegates, come in and
they see, you know so few oftheir colleagues there.
But the first one will walk inand say, oh, nobody here.
I mean we're there, and it'ssort of little things like that.
You know and you notice, and ithappens time and time again.
And I must say I absolutelywelcomed the remarks that
(09:33):
Ambassador of New Zealand hadmade one time and I love telling
the story.
She was given the job ofcoordinating some negotiations,
was given the job ofcoordinating some negotiations
and she had walked in and one ofthe delegates, from a man, said
to her oh, would you get ussome coffee?
Without knowing that she wasthe coordinator, of course.
(09:57):
Anyway, she said, not a problem, what would you like?
So she went out and got therewere three men sitting there,
got the coffees back and thenshe sat at the head of the table
and started the process.
Did the men?
They were shocked and at theend they actually went.
And of course we were sittingnear the head of the table where
she was conducting thenegotiations and the delegate
(10:21):
who actually asked for coffeecame up and apologized and said
I'm terribly sorry.
And she said don't worry, maybetomorrow you'll get coffee for
me.
And you know it was justwonderful and gosh, you know
that was so dignified.
I learned a lot from that.
So those are sort of someexamples of my years at the UN.
(10:46):
But afterwards I actuallyattended Commission on the
Status of Women meeting at oneof the side events and it was
about older women and I heardabout the plight of these older
women in India and the woman whowas telling us this that she
was from India and she saidduring the pilgrimage to the
(11:09):
Ganges every year, so often alot of families leave the
grandmothers behind in the stepsof the temples so that the
priests there would take care,because the families didn't have
enough money to take care ofthe older folks.
I was so upset by that and ofcourse here am I learning about
(11:30):
these things, you know.
So the person who was actuallyconducting that side event she
had asked could somebody takenotes and I thought, okay, I'll
take some notes.
And then we got talkingafterwards and her name is Pat
(11:51):
Brownell, who is a professor atFordham University, and she
brought me into the subcommitteeon older women within the NGO
Committee on Aging and the restof history.
I guess how I started focusingon older persons as well,
following the establishment ofthe Open Ended Working Group on
Aging, which was established todiscuss the feasibility of
having an international legalinstrument to protect the rights
of older persons For me also,obviously older women, even
(12:16):
though the convention toeliminate all forms of
discrimination against women,there is a special
recommendation that deals witholder women, which is
non-binding.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
But yeah, so the combination of that and the
discussions that went on andwhich have completed, but still
no decision by the Open EndedWorking Group on Aging whether
or not to have a convention,still continuing my pursuit of
protection of human rights well,and I want to talk about that,
(12:51):
assuming that most peoplelistening to this don't know too
too much about it there is cdov, and then there's the
convention on the rights ofpersons with disabilities, of
course, as you say, has thisgeneral recommendation 27, which
is on yes and then.
So there are these what theycall human rights instruments,
these conventions that speak toor could speak to the conditions
of older women and things thatare relevant to older women's
(13:14):
rights, either directly orthrough other conventions.
Obviously, all issues affectolder women, but for this
question, I just want to sort ofhelp people to understand why
do we need a convention on therights of older persons?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, that's a question that many governments
are asking.
Right, it's very similar.
Older persons a special groupthat is ignored, overlooked are
barely counted.
Older persons are usually seenas a burden on society.
When they reach a certain age,they are of no value.
(13:52):
Their views are not taken intoaccount.
Just as an example, violenceagainst women and girls the data
goes up to 49.
Yes, and girls the data goes upto 49.
Yes, not beyond right.
(14:12):
Because why Up to 49,?
It's considered thereproductive years, when you
don't have any more children.
You're thrown out to pasture,so to speak.
When sexual and reproductivehealth and rights are discussed,
again, the cutoff date is 49.
Beyond reproductive age,women's health issues are
ignored.
In terms of health issues, itreally should be the biology of
(14:36):
a woman.
You know a woman ages, but shecan have hysterectomies,
mastectomies, cancer, and nobodypays any attention.
But mostly older persons areviewed as beneficiaries of
medical rehabilitation, if thereare benefits or social
protection.
We want older persons to beviewed as having rights, that
(15:01):
they are rights holders, likethe child is a right holder,
like a person with disability isa right holder.
So that's the key issue that wewant older persons to be
considered as rights holdersbecause they have been a
neglected group.
So it was pushed by Argentinaactually since the beginning of
(15:24):
time of the UN, back in 1948,during the adoption of the
Universal Declaration on HumanRights, argentina had actually
asked what about old age?
But by the time they haddiscussed the draft and about to
adopt it, it was decided thatthey didn't need to include
(15:47):
anything about age, even thoughthey included issues about
gender, ethnicity, etc.
Etc.
As you know, and they passedthe issue over to the Economic
and Social Council to discuss.
And aging issues have beendiscussed by the Economic and
Social Council since timeimmemorial, the Economic and
Social Council since timeimmemorial.
But Argentina kept pushing andthere was a major conference on
(16:15):
older persons in Vienna,followed up by another major
conference in Madrid, which cameout with the Madrid Plan of
Action on Older Persons which,much like the Beijing Platform
of Action, it was a blueprintfor programs but not discussing
the rights.
And many governments have toreport and do report every five
years on what they're doing forolder persons.
But certain governmentsArgentina and a number of Latin
(16:39):
American countries felt that itwas necessary to have a human
rights instrument which wasmandatory Once you ratify it,
you have to report on it andgovernments monitor it by the
Human Rights Council or by thecommittee that set up.
That's another reason why somegovernments don't like human
(17:00):
rights treaties.
They like to be shamed andblamed.
But the idea of having aconvention is also to codify the
rights of older persons in onesingle document, set
international definitions andminimum standards of practice,
which is what we want.
Yes, and UN Women.
(17:21):
We are in touch with UN Womenconstantly.
I think they've just come outwith a report, women in
Development report, and olderwomen are mentioned.
But just as an aside, we'veasked them about the data.
We're usually up to 49, asalways, and when we've checked
with them they said, well, wedon't have data.
(17:42):
And we've said but mention itthat you don't have data.
We exist.
Surely statisticians should.
It should be obvious to them,right?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
You would think I remember doing the work on HIV
and AIDS how stunned I was thatso many countries, including our
own, were simply not collectingany data of women over 50.
So it was as if older womendidn't have HIV.
And if you don't have anystatistics, then you have no
programs, you have no fundingand you have no policies.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It starts with the data.
So I completely agree with youand I think that's one of the
most compelling arguments, Ithink, around the convention
certainly in terms of women, butdefinitely in older persons
generally which is it sort ofshifts the conversation from
something that would be a benignrequest or a benevolent thing
for a government to do a goodthing or a good policy to being
(18:32):
contextualized as a human right.
And you've played manydifferent roles, as you say.
You worked at the UN, you'vebeen part of many different
groups the Optimists, the GreyPanthers, the International
Federation of Aging.
I mean, you have all of theseaffiliations, and so one of the
questions that we want to askyou, which I thought was very
interesting, was sort of who doyou think needs to be involved
in terms of a movement to bringabout a convention?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think we've not done enough to include everyone
else.
You know, persons withdisabilities need to be involved
.
Women need to be involved.
Indigenous people need to beinvolved.
Everyone need to be involved.
Indigenous people need to beinvolved, everyone.
Ngos in the health sector, inthe education sector, they all
need to be involved.
But in New York, for instance,these NGO committees that are
(19:17):
set up to facilitate NGOs withECOSOC status to participate in
UN deliberations, there's one onthe status of women, ngo
committing on the status ofwomen, which is very, very
active, and there's one on NGOcommitting on aging, on health,
on indigenous, on education,intergenerational.
(19:39):
So we've reached out and we'reactually trying to include them
much more and asking them toinclude us as well in their
discussions, right?
So yeah, it's absolutelyessential.
We need to include the youth.
They're the future.
Old, and I'm fighting for mygranddaughters.
I don't want them to befighting for the same things
(20:01):
that we're fighting for now,right?
I mean, how many years, forgoodness sake?
I mean there's a report out bythe Secretary General that says,
in terms of gender equality,it's going to take 286 years for
all countries to provide genderequality.
I mean that's outrageous.
It is 300 years.
(20:23):
I mean we've had 2,024 years ofgender inequality already.
Inequality, that's right.
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It doesn't seem unreasonable to be impatient at
this point.
Yeah, that's a piece around ustoo right, which is continuity
and memory and lived experiences.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, I mean not just health, but not being able to
have a bank account without aman signing for you.
I'm not.
My renewal of my Australianpassport in the 1980s had to be
signed by my husband.
I mean what I mean?
That's ridiculous.
And I remember it was sodifficult for my sister to get a
(21:05):
loan to buy a house because shewasn't married and she said I'm
living on my own, I'mresponsible for my own life and
my finances, I'm not going to bein debt like a married couple
might be in debt, you know, withchildren and school and
whatever.
I mean I'm not a risk.
And she had to get a man tosign.
(21:27):
Outrageous, I mean.
That's not so long ago, youknow.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
No it's not, and I think this is really interesting
because there are so many olderwomen activists and advocates
at the national level who havebeen fighting the good fight for
a long time around girls'rights, women's rights, older
persons' rights, older women'srights.
And sometimes there are theseinternational meetings, united
Nations meetings on climate, onwomen.
(21:52):
There are different fora thatare created by the international
community where it's reallyquite remarkable when women come
from the national level wherethey've been doing all of this
advocacy and they can reallyspeak to.
What are the constraints, whatare the challenges?
why do they need to be humanrights and not just lovely
things you're asking thegovernment to do for you, and I
(22:12):
wonder if you can talk a littlebit about how important it's
going to be for a convention onthe rights of older persons to
have older people from thenational level, who are sort of
experts in how to negotiaterights within their own
countries, to be talking aboutwhat they're experiencing and
having that feed into theprocess.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Well, I think there are many people who do good in
their communities, in theirfamilies, and there are some
people who look beyond their ownlives, in their own families,
and they look at what'shappening at the national level,
right at my country level, andthen there are people who look
(22:56):
beyond our borders to othercountries that we are thinking
about, our kindred spirits ofwomen elsewhere.
So at the international level,with the creation of the United
Nations at the internationallevel, what usually happens is
that if things don't work toowell at national levels, then
(23:20):
international cooperation comesinto play to set standards, to
talk about the rights of women,the rights of children, climate
change and all of that.
So the UN provides a mechanismfor all countries to view human
rights in a similar way.
But the basic human rights andthe dignity of the human person
(23:45):
must be respected, and that'swhat we're all fighting for.
Right, and these areinternational agreements on how
governments should be treatingevery individual.
So we want to push for thatFrom cradle to grave, as we say.
We don't want to leave anybodyout at all.
(24:08):
I think the CEDAW absolutelymade a huge difference.
No question, no question.
Governments had to look atwomen in a totally different
light, and the same with personswith disabilities.
My goodness, what a differencethat convention made about their
right to work, their right tohealth.
(24:28):
I mean it made such a hugedifference.
I mean we look at the personswith disabilities in a whole
different light.
Right, it was amazing, the CRPD, and I think we feel the same
about a convention for olderpersons, you know, to be looked
at differently, that we are ofvalue, we're not just tossed out
(24:52):
into pasture.
And for many women, for instance, where they've not been allowed
to go to school and thenwithout education they couldn't
get the work that they shouldhave to be independent.
And then they get old and theydon't have social protection.
So it's one whole lifetime ofdiscrimination.
(25:13):
And then when their husbandsdie, they lose their property
rights.
And it's that sort of thingthat international treaties
bring to the attention of notjust governments but everyone.
You know people suddenlyrealize, gee, I have rights and
I think that's really important.
(25:33):
It's always about the dignityof the human being and it's sad
that we need to have pieces ofpaper to recognize that.
And it's actually been veryinteresting to listen to the
debates on these issues.
You wonder whether it's theindividual who's speaking or is
(25:53):
it the government?
Who's speaking on this, andwhat do you think about your
grandmother?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think when you start to talk about a convention
, just even the talk about aconvention forces you to stop
for a moment and consider what'sthis about.
But, having said that, 14 yearsis a long time to be talking
about it, and so I think this isinteresting for people to know
about and understand.
Which is 14 years.
(26:18):
This wasn't to come to aconclusion to say absolutely
there should be one.
It's 14 years to discusswhether there should be one.
They weren't crafting aconvention.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
No, they were not.
It was whether to have one ornot.
The feasibility is the word ofa convention.
And only last year that theycame up with recommendations on
moving forward in terms ofoptions.
It was recognized, finally,that the existing treaties don't
cover all the aspects of therights of older persons, that
(26:52):
there were gaps on health issues, on education issues.
The idea was to what can bedone to fill those gaps.
So they came up with a numberof options.
The first option was, yes, weneed a separate treaty, legal
instrument to do this, and ofcourse this is all part of
intergovernmental negotiation,as you know, right.
(27:15):
And then there were otherrecommendations that may be okay
, we'll look at CEDAW and we canprovide a protocol to be added
to that.
Or we can look at CRPD andprovide a protocol which is, in
a sort of addendum, legallybinding, as is the convention
itself, that would deal witholder persons.
(27:36):
And then there are otherrecommendations that, okay, the
Universal Periodic Review ofHuman Rights per country, that
they should report more on olderpersons.
You know, hardly anybodyreports on older persons that we
would try and force governmentsto report, but of course that's
not going to take place either.
(27:57):
I mean the impact of a treaty,a convention, is huge.
It really is huge.
It changes government'sperspective, individuals' it
really is huge.
It changes government'sperspective, individuals'
perspective, businessperspective.
I mean everyone.
So there were the naysayers whodon't view human rights as
important.
And then there are those whosay we already have laws, we
(28:21):
already have legislation, wealready have programs, we don't
need to have another piece ofpaper.
And then there's some who aresort of sitting on the fence.
And then there's some who saywell, we have a program of
action, the Madrid InternationalPlan of Action, already.
So it's been a very, verydifficult road to convince our
(28:46):
governments to have this.
So now we've got to this stagewhen we're expecting the Human
Rights Council in Geneva toreview all of this, to consider
all these options and to come upwith a recommendation.
So a new round of advocacy willbe taking place in in Geneva as
(29:08):
opposed to in New York.
So it's still a lot of heavywork to be done.
It's a question of convincing.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I often found working on CEDAW that it's not so much
that people were cynical somepeople are cynical but it wasn't
so much cynicism.
It was that it was so importantto make the connection between
this pieces of paper that floataround the UN and how does that
connect to real people living incommunities and how does that
improve their lives.
How do we make thoseconnections real for people?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
number of treaties that set out what governments
are required to do to protectthe rights and dignity of the
human person, and we have tocall governments out.
You know, for children,education.
It's a right of a child to haveeducation.
And we're also saying how aboutlifelong learning?
Why is it, after you get olderthat you are not entitled to
(30:10):
have any education, with all thetechnology that's taking place
now?
I mean, what about educationfor older persons?
And if there's violence againstwomen, for instance and we know
all about that why are westopping only for those of
reproductive years?
(30:30):
There's violence and abuse ofolder women, of older persons,
and that's always overlooked.
It's incredible.
When we're talking about rights,I think we hope individuals
will say I think we hopeindividuals will say you know,
(30:51):
it's my right to have long-termcare, it's my right to have
various health care, it's myright not to be abused, whether
it's financial abuse, emotionalabuse, physical abuse.
I think we have to think abouteach other's rights and I'm
fighting for my granddaughters.
You know it's their right tohave education, obviously, and
if they're not getting it, youknow I should be suing the
(31:13):
government.
I don't know whether you'reaware, but a group of older
women in Switzerland recentlysued the government for not
complying with the environment,the climate agreement, in terms
of protecting their health, andthey took it to the European
Court.
And the European Court hasdecided against the government.
(31:35):
You know for them to say theycan sue their government.
It's a human right for them tobe protected from climate change
.
I mean, that's going to havehuge repercussions around the
world, right?
So I think people need tounderstand that.
Why are we electing thesepeople if they're not protecting
right and there's a flip sideto it.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Right Because one of the things that I've been so
motivated by, inspired by whichis it's quite extraordinary what
older women bring, not just ourfamilies as grandmothers or
loving elders, but and Frances,I think you embody it as well
what I notice is that olderwomen, the more active they get
in their communities arounddifferent issues or even at the
(32:16):
international level.
I've had so many interviewswhere women have said to me I
don't have anything to lose, Idon't care what people think
about me, I'm not worrying somuch about how I look or whether
I'll embarrass my children,whatever the thing is that was
holding you back or limitingyour voice.
And so I see a lot of olderwomen as just extraordinarily
powerful voices for reallyradical change and thought and
(32:38):
inquiry.
And so to me, there's a flipside around the struggle for the
convention, which is we need toprovide rights to older women
so that we can unleash theircontribution and see them as
vital contributors to ourcommunities, as they are into
our societies, and the more wethink of them as sort of
beneficiaries of largesse or thekindness of the state or the
(33:02):
kindness of the community, we'rereally missing out actually.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, and for people to listen.
But who are in power?
Men?
That's the problem, certainly.
I mean, still, the majority ofdelegates are men.
At the UN, we still haven't hada woman Secretary General.
Maybe next time, maybe thistime.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, maybe next time , maybe this time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
But I think what bothers me is that women spend
their entire life doing thingsfor others, the family.
Or when women started going outin the workforce, we were
saying now they're going to havetwo jobs right, one in the
family and outside.
You know, so it's just beentough.
(33:48):
And what you were saying aboutthe grandmothers in Africa who
took care of their grandchildrenbecause the parents have died
from AIDS, the grandmotherstotally overlooked.
They've saved a wholegeneration and yet they've been
overlooked.
And it's difficult, difficultfor us.
For me, I'm lucky, I have apension, I have housing, I have
(34:14):
food to eat, and in countries,for instance, they've done
studies on this when governmentshave actually provided some
sort of monthly subsidy to givethe older persons and guess who?
The older person spends themoney on Education for the
grandkids or food for the family, not for herself.
(34:36):
You know, when you read aboutthis and you think, the pure
generosity of women.
It's amazing, absolutelyamazing, and it brings tears to
one's eyes.
You know what they have tostruggle.
There was this wonderful storyof this group of older women in
(34:58):
Nepal and there was some moneythat was given to them, actually
by the NGO Committee on Agingto give literacy courses to
these older women.
I mean the freedom that justthat little bit of education
gave these women, because theydidn't have the chance as a
young person.
I mean it was incredible.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And if it were the state's obligation, if it were
the government's obligation?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Exactly the obligation to do it.
Yes, it's systemic change.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
That's when you really see the shift.
There's a lot to overcome toget to this convention.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
As you said in the beginning, they first have to
decide to have a conventionbefore drafting a convention.
So we have these steps.
We're watching the Human RightsCouncil very closely.
It's likely that they willaddress this in March next year,
2025.
So there will be quite a lot ofwork being done between now and
(35:54):
March to line up the supporters, because they're supposed to
review the recommendations thatwere made by the Open Ended
Working Group, the last sessionthis year, which will take us to
the next step.
So there's a lot of advocacythat will have to be done
between now and March.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
It's not much time.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Not much time and some urgency, too right, because
you can't say you know, there'ssort of different groups of
people the children, women,persons with disabilities.
It was all recognized that theyhad their rights violated.
I mean not just ignored butviolated.
And now there's another group,growing group of people of older
(36:37):
persons.
It's an aging world that theyhave had their rights violated
as well.
So that's why we need aconvention.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
What are the core messages?
Sort of advocacy points aboutolder women's rights, going into
this before March, and how canpeople follow along Frances?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
My two favorite words are to be vigilant and
persistent.
You know, we do not want to gobackwards, please.
We do not want to lose therights we've gained as younger
women.
We don't want to lose them aswe age.
If we are concerned about ourprogeny, our grandkids, we
(37:21):
should think about this.
We do not want them to losetheir rights to health, to
education, whatever, as they age.
We have to keep an eye on thingsthat worry us long-term care,
palliative care.
What is being done?
You know, we take care of youngpeople children, babies,
(37:44):
toddlers.
What happens to them when theyget older?
We have to think about thecontinuum of life.
We have to think about fromcradle to grave.
We all have a future, whetherit's five days of future, five
months of future or five decadesof future.
I'm 83 and I feel I have afuture and I'd like to have that
(38:07):
future protected and we have tothink about that.
The future belongs to everyoneand governments are responsible
for providing programs, care,education, whatever we've been
talking about until the day wedie die, and they shouldn't
(38:33):
forget that.
Not up to 49 or 59 or 69, untilthe day we die, and we have to
keep our eye on all of that.
There's a sustainabledevelopment goal that talks
about prevention of hunger.
Older persons actually appearsin one of those targets, but
what is being done about that?
Hunger of older persons?
Nobody pays any attention.
Hunger of children, yes, andrightly so, absolutely, but what
(38:56):
about the older person?
We're talking about the worthof a human being, ilana, from
beginning to end.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Wherever we see some inequity, whatever bothers us,
whether it's climate,environment, whatever it is
latch onto it you know, if thereare people who hear you and who
just want to continue to knowabout this, where do they go to
find out more about what'shappening at the Human Rights
Council, what's happening witholder persons' rights and
prevention?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Well, of course, different websites, but one
organization is the GlobalAlliance for the Rights of Older
People and that has a wonderfulwebsite that has links to
everything that you ever want toknow about older persons.
And at the UN, the Human RightsCouncil just Google Human
Rights Council and theCommission on the Status of
(39:45):
Women at the UN.
So there's a lot going on atthe UN, and at the UN they also
have a section on civil societyparticipation, so we can look at
that as well to see where civilsociety can participate and try
to make a change.
I think even if people justwork at the local level, it's a
(40:09):
good step.
It doesn't have to beinternational, but if you're
thinking a bit beyond the localcommunity level, definitely look
at the UN, and there aredifferent regional commissions
in different parts of the world.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
So final word, frances if the convention gets
drafted and it gets passed andit comes into being, what can
people look forward to?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I would imagine a world where all human beings are
respected, including the olderpeople, that older people are
not left out to starve, thatthey're not tossed out on the
street, that older persons feelthat they have a right to
(40:55):
receive care and programs fromthe government because the
government is doing a good job,that they will have decent
pensions, that they will be ableto work and not be tossed out
because of their age, becausemany people have to work to
survive and so many olderpersons work in the informal
(41:19):
sector.
They don't have pensions, theydon't have savings.
I would like a convention to beable to show the world that
everyone, including olderpersons, including those who
reach the end of their lives,that they matter.
I think that's very important,that everybody matters.
(41:41):
The fact that older persons areconsidered a burden you know
they're about to die anyway, sowhy waste money on them?
I want that attitude todisappear.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
The dignity of the individual,for me, is very, very important.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Makes so much sense, and we know too it's like women
getting the vote.
There was a time when it wasinconceivable that it would
happen.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Absolutely.
That's a great example.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yes, we waited for everybody to agree.
It would not have happened.
It had to be passed in lawfirst.
And now, look, we take itcompletely for granted.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I'd love to see a day when it's just an absolute
given.
We don't even have to thinkabout it yeah.
Some generation from now.
We just wake up and it's acomplete given.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yes, absolutely, that's so.
It's funny.
For years I used to say I hopeI get a convention before I die,
and now I'm saying I hope I geta decision to start hosting a
convention before.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
I die Well.
Thank you for this, frances.
I'm so glad we had thisconversation.
There's so much more to talkabout, but I'm very happy we
talked about it and verygrateful for your exceptional
contribution in so many ways tothe rights of all the people.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's been a pleasure.
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