Welcome! This is ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast: Elderwomen, Older women and Grandmothers on the Move!
What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series... 'Age With Rights and Dignity' - 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world. These committed champions and advocates will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons, and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the rights of older persons into being - for you and me, no matter how old we are now!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in our olderage?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:22):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions willshare with us why they care
about the rights of olderpersons and what they are doing
to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the Rights
of Older Persons into being,for you and for me, no matter
how old we are.
(00:43):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble HumanRights Day 2024 blog to find out
more that isA-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-Ecom and sign
the global petition for the UNConvention on the Rights of
(01:04):
Older Persons.
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us, enjoythis special initiative, and my
thanks to Margaret Young, thefounder of Age Noble for
(01:27):
bringing this opportunity to usto hear from these important
guests who promote the humanrights and the dignity of older
persons the world over.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hi, my name is Faith and I'm a guest interviewer on
today's Wisdom at Work podcast.
I am studying at university andI'm also currently volunteering
at the Global Alliance for theRights of Older Persons, and I
believe in protecting the rightsof older persons and I'm
looking forward to interviewingour guest today.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Hello, my name is Kira and I'm a guest interviewer
on today's Wisdom at Workpodcast.
I'm currently a universitystudent studying psychology,
with plans to specialize ingerontology.
I care deeply about supportingthe mental health and rights of
older adults.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So I'm really looking forward to speaking with our
guest today.
Today, we are joined by MoiraAllen.
Moira is based in Paris and sheis living a fulfilled life as a
lifelong learner.
Originally from South Africa,she built her career in
journalism, public relations,life coaching, training and
managing an occupational healthorganization in France.
She founded the Too Young toRetire Network in Europe and
(02:45):
went on to co-found, with JanHeigli PhD, the Pass it On
Network, a global grassroots,strength-based network of
positive aging pioneersadvocating for the rights of
older people, the adaptation ofsociety to the new opportunities
and challenges of longevity,and defying ageism through
action.
She is the internationalcoordinator of the network that
(03:07):
has spread to 65 countries onthe five continents, with
regional networks, including avery vital one in Southern
Africa.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Moira serves on several boards Old Up, an
avant-garde French associationwhose aim it is to give meaning
and utility to our longer lives.
Eureg, a non-profit NGO with150 member organizations in 27
European countries, and theInternational Longevity Center,
france.
(03:35):
She leads Old Ups Europe andthe World Global Group, intent
on learning from how othercountries are coping with our
global demographic phenomenon.
She serves on Age Platform,europe's task force on the
rights of older people.
She is on the mission committeeof CLEREN, a major European
player in the care industry thathas adopted the status of a
(03:57):
purpose-driven company,combining their economic and
social roles.
She's also a director of theWilton's Foundation in South
Africa, dedicated to ensuringinclusive and equitable quality
education and to lifelonglearning opportunities for all
in rural environments.
Moira, thank you so much forjoining us today.
(04:18):
We're thrilled to have you hereand truly appreciate you taking
the time to chat with us.
Let's start by diving into yourjourney.
Do you mind sharing a bit aboutyourself and what inspired you
to step into the world ofanti-ageism and
anti-discrimination advocacy?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Well, I guess the simple answer is that I'm
growing old, like everybodyaround the world, every single
day, and I've always beenfascinated by the life course
approach.
I studied psychology and thatwas the one aspect that
interested me and I kind of hada wonderful anticipation of what
(04:59):
I would be like when I got intothat stage where they say you
stop and you reflect and you goback on your life and you
appreciate it, and so forth andso on.
And I think that's why I get soangry when I see that whole
stage of life, which is the lasthalf of life Firstly, being
lumped from 60 to 100 as one biggroup.
(05:22):
You know, it's almost as if youput babies to 40 years in the
same group.
Do me a favor, but that's whathappens.
That really makes me angrybecause there's such interesting
variations in age.
I think that was basically thefirst thing.
Then I listened to Dr BillThomas, who's a very well-known
(05:45):
geriatrician in the UnitedStates, and he just had this
wonderful way, to my mind, ofexplaining it.
He said that from the timeyou're born and you come out of
your mother's womb and you getthat first clap on the back and
you take your breath and youstart breathing and you start
living.
Everyone has two imperativesand those imperatives are growth
(06:11):
and development.
And those imperatives stay withyou until your very last breath
and they move along with you,obviously as you develop and as
you grow and you move from stageto stage.
And life is a progression andthat's what the what ageism
doesn't understand, because it's.
(06:34):
It's just so amazing.
You know, every single person,without exception, grows older
day by day.
You know's no mystery.
That's what's happening.
And then, just as a littlesmirk, when you think of how
much time it takes to change anypolicies.
All the work that we're doingis for you guys, for the younger
(06:56):
people, because by the time youget through, I hope and pray
that we will have a conventionat the United Nations on these
issues.
That's so wonderful.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yes, do you mind defining what ageism is and what
that may look like?
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Well, I think ageism, simply defined, is a social
construct against age which putsthe emphasis onto age.
So you are classified as ageand that means that you're too
old or too young to do something, and it's a completely socially
(07:35):
constructed concept.
Ageism, which is different fromage discrimination, which is
actually the acts thatdiscriminate against people,
it's one of the last isms that'sacceptable, socially acceptable
(07:57):
.
But discrimination, for example, says that you can no longer
drive a motor car after such andsuch an age, or you can't have
a house loan after such and suchan age, or you can't have a
house loan after such and suchan age, or your employer stops
thinking of you as a validperson for ongoing learning when
you get to 45 or 50.
That's real discrimination,Whereas ageism itself tends more
(08:20):
to be on the emotional side,the perceptive side.
You know how people perceiveaging through just stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Would you say that ageism, I guess, leads to age
discrimination, or ageism iskind of the root of a lot of
this other lack of the right toself-autonomy and dignity and
being able to make your owndecisions as an older person.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I think that they kind of go hand in hand really.
And it's self-defeating to haveageist attitudes which lead to
discrimination anddiscrimination to the ageist
attitudes.
You know, it's just, it'sagainst the human progression of
life.
We're all going to be old andwe're all going to go through
different stages of life etcetera.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
What I think about a lot is that ageism manifests
when you're younger and itcompounds as you age.
What I was curious about is howa young person can maybe
reflect and how to recognizethat early on so it doesn't
become a problem at end of life.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
That's such an interesting point.
I was reading the other day andit was said that child's
attitude towards age isdeveloped very young around
about four somewhere like thatand it depends a lot on how that
child just perceives itsgrandparents or older people
around them.
So if those older people aresort of you know, miserable and
(09:51):
whatever, that's the kind ofattitude they take on, whereas
if they are blessed with youknow, dynamic grandparents who
are interested in life andcurious and so forth, that's how
the child will react.
So, carrying that forward, weall have a tremendous
responsibility because we'reenacting all the time how we
(10:14):
live our age.
And that's, I think, a veryimportant point.
And from my own point of view, Ididn't know any of my
grandparents didn't have anygrandparents.
I didn't know any of mygrandparents didn't have any
grandparents.
And the oldest person that Ican remember as a child was my
Auntie Totti, and Auntie Totti,to me as a little girl, always
(10:37):
looked as though she had toomuch powder on her face and her
lipstick was always a bit squiff, and she used to have lots of
jewelry.
That's right, but she was ajolly soul.
She was always laughing andfull of jewelry, that's right,
but she was a jolly soul.
She was always laughing andfull of beans, so I was lucky to
have that as an image.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, I guess that just shows how it doesn't have
to be your grandparents, but itcan be any person that you look
up to and see in your life,right, I would want to ask how
do you think ageism and agediscrimination then link to the
human rights of older people andthe fight for a UN convention?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Well, it's one of those very, very important
things.
There's so many differentinstruments around the world,
but there's nothing really thatties it all together.
And I think that is the mostimportant thing, because we all
have our rights and they aredefended in the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,which doesn't specifically
mention aging or age.
(11:33):
And I think, if you reflect onthat just for five seconds, it's
because when it was created, 75plus years ago, aging wasn't an
issue.
It just wasn't.
We've had this incredibleacceleration of life over a
tremendously short period oftime and as that acceleration
(11:57):
continues, so the weight of theolder person in society just
grows.
So it's just extremelyimportant for those rights to be
codified and to put into someform that can become legally
binding.
People are skeptical and theysay, yes, but everything exists
(12:20):
and it's all a question ofimplementation, and I tend to
agree.
And it's all a question ofimplementation, and I tend to
agree.
But it is so important to havethem down in writing and become
legally binding on all thenations.
We all know that not everynation is going to apply them,
but they can be held to accountand people then have recourse
(12:42):
and they can go throughdifferent areas and have their
case put forward, and that isjust so important it really is,
so that equality can be assuredfor everybody.
It's such a long way.
You know, I work a lot withAfrica and there's such a
tremendous difference betweenAfrica and the so-called
(13:05):
developed world, on the positiveand on the negative side.
In the African communitiesthere's still a lot of
family-based care andfamily-based tradition, poverty,
and that poverty is often adriver to excessive behavior,
(13:26):
really excessive and awfulbehavior Sometimes, when older
people are accused of witchcraft, for example, that can happen.
I'm not please don't think I'msaying this happens throughout
Africa and all the time, but itis a horrible thing which is
driven by basic economic things.
If people get accused ofwitchcraft, then their
(13:47):
possessions get taken away fromthem and they get hounded out of
the community, that kind ofthing.
So there's so many differentaspects, but on the other hand,
it's so important that all thesecountries go, and I must say
here that I was really happy tonotice that the African Union
has its own code in this respect, and it's only recently that
(14:12):
Nigeria became the one countrythat tipped that process into
law, because up until then therewere 15 different countries in
Africa that ratified theprotocol, and then Nigeria
became just recently a couple ofmonths ago the 16th, and that
was the minimum amount of numberof countries that were required
(14:34):
to activate their own protocolor the rights of older people.
So that's super.
As far as the rest of the worldis concerned, it's a step ahead
and should be followed.
I think one of the main aspectsis to have the convention,
which would lay down all thedifferent rules and regulations,
and that countries would thenhave to ratify that and then
(14:58):
imply it, and if they don'tapply it, it's monitored and you
can report on what they're notdoing.
So that's why I think it's justso important to go ahead and
drive and to get this off theground now.
It's been talked about for solong.
It really is high time that itcomes into being.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And do you mind sharing some things that you and
others have done to eliminateageism, age discrimination and
to promote the human rights ofolder people?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
We work a lot with Age Platform in Europe and
attend different meetings andparticipate in different work
groups on all these questionsabout dignified aging, long-term
care, age-friendly cities.
So that is quite a big,important part of the work that
we do.
And then in Africa we work withcountries.
(15:54):
We've got a network in SouthernAfrica which consists of
members in South Africa, inBotswana, in Zimbabwe, in Zambia
, in Lesotho, and that is suchinteresting work and they're all
working towards that.
And the interesting thing isthat in most of the
(16:15):
constitutions of these countriesthey have excellent frameworks,
excellent policies.
There just sometimes is a bigissue with the actual
implementation of the policies,but they're way ahead of many
countries in terms of what thepolicies actually say.
So our biggest thing is to tryto raise awareness and to talk
(16:39):
about ageism, and especially totalk about ageism in terms of
self-inflicted ageism.
I'm a very, very, very, verystrong advocate for people
waking up to their own strengthand their own agency, because
there are millions and millionsand millions of older people in
(17:01):
the world.
So if they were all to stand upfor themselves, there would be
far less ageism, because itwould simply be taken for
granted.
And I always like to relatethis story because people say
that there's a lot of differenceand it's difficult to do
something.
But if you're interested in acertain subject and let's take a
(17:25):
subject like climate change orthe SDGs of the United Nations
and you become interested inthat and, as an older person,
you join an organization that isnot an older person's
organization, but anorganization that is involved
with one of these objectives,one of these massive problems
that are facing our world, andyou start working within that
(17:47):
organization.
Age just disappears, it simplydoesn't matter, because you are
then contributing to a commongoal shared with the other
people there.
And whether you're 60, 70, 80,or whether you're 18 or 24, if
there's a job to be done and youcan do it and you can
contribute.
(18:08):
That is the best way of workingaround these issues.
And the other thing that I thinkis so important is that we look
at ourselves and we check ourown language and we check our
own attitudes.
So often you hear peopletalking about oh, I'm having a
senior moment.
(18:28):
But, as Ashton Applewhite sooften says I think I just love
the way she says it she saidwhen I was at university and I
mislaid my keys, I didn't say,oh, I'm having a junior moment.
Everybody throughout their lifedoes these things, but we
mustn't take on what society isbusy projecting to us.
(18:50):
On the contrary, we need toreflect that we're curious, that
we're wanting to live, thatwe're wanting to contribute and
that we are doing those things.
And I think that is the mostimportant work that we do
working with people around theworld on just being, but being
active and being involved andthat radiates out.
(19:11):
You become a role model thatother people can watch.
For example, this is one that Ireally love One of our Pass it
On Network members, whom we callpioneers, because Pass it On
Network P-I-O-N it's not a veryattractive acronym.
We prefer to call ourselvespioneers Okay, pioneers.
(19:36):
And this is a woman calledSheena Edwards and she lives in
Perth in Australia, and when sheretired she was given a tablet
and she didn't know how to workit, although she had been in
computers, the big computers.
So she went about learning howto work her iPad and that was
(19:58):
now 12 years ago, and since thenshe's created and grown a whole
organization, and the nicething about that is it's seniors
helping other seniors.
So as soon as she gets newpeople in, they're so pleased
that they're learning how tomanipulate the digital world,
(20:19):
and then they can show somebodyelse who's just at a beginner
stage, and she started endlessnumbers of little clubs like
that, where it's a win-win allaround.
The people are very proud ofthemselves, the people who
become teachers are reallyengaged, and this is what I mean
by being active and alsogenerative and creative in this
(20:42):
stage of our lives.
Not sitting there, kenDeitchfield.
He always talks about literallymillions of people old people
standing in the wings waiting tobe invited onto the stage.
But that's not going to happen.
We have to create our own stageand get on with it.
And you know, it just seems tome so clear it seems like it's
(21:06):
quite a big mountain to climb.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
What challenges have you faced trying to champion for
that?
Speaker 4 (21:13):
I think the biggest challenge is just getting around
society's kind of obstinacy innot recognizing what's going on,
Because the world is changingand it's changing rapidly and
the number of older people isjust growing and growing and
growing, and that requiresradical changes in absolutely
everything.
I think that the work that theStanford University is doing is
(21:38):
absolutely outstanding.
They're trying to plan for thehundred-year life which affects
everybody.
I mean, just think of it, Justthink of your teeth.
If you're going to live for ahundred years, you better take
care of your teeth.
Think of your teeth If you'regoing to live for 100 years, you
better take care of your teeth.
And then there's the wholequestion of lifelong learning.
(21:59):
The standard pattern up untilnow has been that you go to
school and then you go touniversity and you get a career
and then you move on.
But things are changing sorapidly and so quickly that you
have to keep on re-educatingyourself or getting new
information, because otherwiseyou'll be outdated.
So Stanford University isworking on the whole idea of
(22:20):
periods of training, periods ofworking periods of training,
periods of relaxation, et ceteraa whole new way of looking at
life.
And this is exciting and Ican't see why people around the
world don't find the excitementin that and the curiosity and
see the possibilities forinnovating, because it seriously
(22:41):
is changing so much.
There's not these three blocksof life.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I really like the message.
You're not done living justbecause you reach 65.
And you mentioned kind of olderpeople having unique
experiences and possibly evenfirst chances later in life.
Were there any experiences likethat that you had that you
wouldn't have otherwise expectedwhen you were young?
(23:06):
Me?
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Sure, I seriously think that I've had the most
wonderful last 15 to 20 yearsthrough the creation of the
Parsadon Network.
I'm the co-founder of that witha wonderful person called Dr
Jan Hively, and how we got goingI always like to tell the story
was that I went off to thefirst ever Positive Aging
(23:34):
Conference in Florida in 2007.
And that's where I met JanHively, and she was running a
workshop that was calledMeaningful Work, paid or Unpaid,
through the Last Breath, and Iwas just so fascinated by this
(23:57):
because this goes back to what Isaid right at the beginning,
that every age has itsdevelopment tasks and I thought
this was wonderful.
So I stood in the long queue ofpeople who wanted to speak to
her at the end and I handed hermy little card.
At the stage, I was running anoccupational health organization
in France, in the Paris area,and I said to her if ever you
come to Paris, come and come andtalk to our medical doctors in
(24:19):
the occupational field, becauseat that stage, which was 2008,
the whole question of age in theworkplace wasn't an issue,
which it has now become more andmore so.
A year later, she contacted meand said I'm going to be coming
to Paris.
So she came and I introducedher to Dr Francoise Fauret, who
(24:46):
was Mrs Gerontology in France atthat time, and we organized a
huge conference with the medicaldoctors of the whole Paris
region and it was the first timethat they had actually studied
this whole issue of age in theworkplace.
And from then on we created thePass it On Network.
(25:07):
And Pass it On is to pass onwhatever experience you have
accumulated, basically to helpyourself first and foremost.
Secondly, to help your familyand to help your community and
remain engaged.
And it was built on anorganization that I created in
Europe called Too Young toRetire, which was started in the
(25:31):
United States by a super couplecalled Howard and Marika Stone
and they were way ahead of thetrend.
But I mean the trend hashappened so quickly because of
the baby boomers coming up.
They started in the year 2000and they were ahead of the trend
, together with Mark Friedmanwho had his civic ventures
(25:51):
organization.
So these things are just peoplewho've been alive to what is
happening and adjusted the life.
And the whole thing about tooyoung to retire was to retire,
that horrible word of retirement.
It's like just switch off.
It's awful, it's retreat, it'swithdrawal, it's just not on.
(26:14):
So you don't have to carry onworking per se, but you don't
retire from life.
You keep on living, and in anappropriate way to your
circumstances, health andeverything.
The whole question of age inthe workplace wasn't an issue,
which it has now become more andmore so.
(26:37):
A year later she contacted meand said I'm going to be coming
to Paris.
So she came and I introduced herto Dr Françoise Fauré, who was
Mrs Gerontology in France atthat time, and we organized a
huge conference with the medicaldoctors of the whole Paris
(26:58):
region and it was the first timethat they had actually studied
this whole issue of age in theworkplace.
And from then on we created thePass it On Network, and Pass it
On is to pass on whateverexperience you have accumulated,
basically to help yourselffirst and foremost.
(27:21):
Secondly to help your family andto help your community and
remain engaged.
And it was built on anorganization that I created in
Europe called Too Young toRetire, which was started in the
United States by a super couplecalled Howard and Marika Stone,
and they were way ahead of thetrend, but I mean the trend has
(27:43):
happened so quickly because ofthe baby boomers coming up.
They started in the year 2000,.
And they were ahead of thetrend, together with Mark
Friedman who had his CivicVentures organization.
So these things are just peoplewho've been alive to what is
happening and adjusted theirlife.
And the whole thing about tooyoung to retire was to retire
(28:07):
that horrible word of retirement, it's like just switch off.
It's awful, it's retreat, it'swithdrawal, it's just not on.
So you don't have to carry onworking per se, but you don't
retire from life.
You keep on living and in anappropriate way to your
(28:28):
circumstances, health andeverything else.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I want to touch a bit more on retirement and ageism
in the workplace.
Do you have any thoughts onwhat organizations can do to
become more aware of their rolein ageism, and if there's
anything that they canpotentially do to eliminate it?
Speaker 4 (28:48):
Well, I think that necessity is forcing people and
forcing companies to realizewhat's going on, and I can just
quote in Germany, for example,they're bringing back retired
people because they don't havesufficient skilled people to
fulfill the jobs, and this kindof thing is happening more and
more.
But I think that there's somuch work being done in this
(29:11):
field.
You know, in the States we'vegot Janine van den Berg who's
been really pushing this wholeissue for such a long time of
equity in the workplace and theright place for older people.
We've got from our Parsitalnetwork, linda Smith in South
Africa that runs an organizationcalled 50 Plus Skills and she's
(29:34):
been working for years now withthe big companies to show them
the importance of, number one,preparing people who are getting
towards the retirement age, notto stop working or anything
like that, but maybe to havesome kind of flexibility in the
changing roles and also toincrease the number of people
(29:57):
still at work in the 60 to 70age group.
That's what is really requiredand you can see many, many
different examples today.
For example, in some bigmanagement companies like
PricewaterhouseCoopers Group,they have, I think, an age limit
for their partners and thentheir partners are expected to
(30:19):
go off and create something orto work with other people, so
that's very good.
In France, I know there are twothings.
There's the OECD that's beenworking very, very hard with big
companies to get them tounderstand the importance of
maintaining older workers.
And then there's anotherrecently formed organization I
(30:43):
forget the name for the moment,but they are now it's a group of
it's like a club of bigcompanies.
The human resource people areall working together and working
on this whole issue ofmaintaining people in the
workplace and continuingeducation, which is so important
(31:06):
.
So I think there's very much tobe said about that.
So I think there's very much tobe said about that.
And there's a great deal ofresearch that has been done on
the effectiveness of age,diverse work teams.
In startups, for example, youget a far better success rate
(31:29):
when you have a mixed team theolder and the younger than when
you have an all-young team or anall-older team.
And I think, if you think aboutit, it's just totally logical.
You know, the older people havethe experience and the younger
people have the tech and thedrive and the curiosity and all
(31:51):
the rest of it, and the mix isjust it stands more chances of
winning.
So I think that we're actuallyliving at the moment, a major
change that is going on becauseof the lack of workers, of
(32:13):
workers, and it's going toincrease, because we're already
seeing the articles about thestart of the depopulation of the
world sorry, I just wanted toadd, like how you said, it was
totally logical to have, uhteams in the workplace that are
mixed like depending on age.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I think yeah, just like how you would want to bring
in perspectives from people ofdifferent backgrounds or races,
different people of differentgenders.
It's kind of the same idea,right.
So yeah, absolutely makes totalsense yeah, no, and I've been.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
You know, obviously, one reads a lot of these things
and what we need, as for aging,is what happened with, uh, with
women.
You know how quickly has thatchanged women in the workplace,
and more and more equality, andmore and more equal pay for
equal work, etc.
Etc.
And that's what we need tohappen with aging, and that
(33:12):
women's rights have beenincreased incredibly over a
short period of time.
So we need to do the same thingfor ages, but it's not to fight
for an age, it's not that atall, in my feeling.
It's to fight for anunderstanding of the life course
(33:34):
, and that it's rich and thateverything you know it's like a
book.
You know a fabulous book thatyou've read.
I don't want to go back andread Chapter 1.
You know, you've read it,you've enjoyed it, you've
assimilated it and life is aprogression and it just gets
(33:58):
deeper and better.
So, anyway, that's the way Ifeel.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Moira, if you're comfortable, do you mind sharing
any personal experiences thatyou've had with ageism?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Well, I think one that really gave me a shock was
I'm busy sitting working happilyat my computer and the doorbell
rings.
So I go there and there's thisfellow and he's got a whole
stack of papers and an iPad ontop of it and he says that he's
from the local utility company.
I said yes and he said okay.
(34:36):
So first of all I just have toask you a few questions, okay,
so name and address andtelephone number, and then age.
So I say my age.
I think I must have been 72 atthe time.
So I say my age.
I think I must have been 72 atthe time.
So he closes his iPad and hesays you're too old, I can't
talk to you, literally like that.
(34:56):
So what do you mean?
I'm too old and you can't talkto me.
He said haven't you gotsomebody under 70 in your
household that I can talk to?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Anyway, that was it.
He couldn't talk to me becauseI didn't fit to his standard.
And then there was another casethat was also quite interesting
.
I've been going to the samegynecologist for forever, and
the last time I went to her shedidn't do a pap smear.
(35:38):
I said, oh, aren't you going todo a pap smear?
And she said no.
And I said why?
And she said well, it's notcovered by the Social Security
after a certain age.
I said, oh, that's very strange.
She said yes, because the papsmear is designed basically to
(35:59):
detect sexually transmissiblediseases, so the Social Security
obviously expects you not tohave any sexual activity after a
certain age, because then youcan't catch the disease.
That was quite an interestingthing.
That happened as well.
(36:19):
So you have these odd thingsthat happen and make you realize
.
Then, there are far moreserious things.
That that happen, though, isthat, for example, if you want
to get a house loan or you wantto rent an apartment, and you
(36:41):
suddenly find that the peoplerenting the apartment now want
your last three bulletinspaychecks.
So if you retired and yourretirement is obviously a
fraction of what your earningcapacity was you really have
difficulty getting a renting anapartment.
(37:03):
You know those kind of thingswhich are very serious.
And insurance also.
Sometimes in insurancecompanies it's limited in terms
of age.
If you travel, the travelinsurance is much more expensive
.
The older you get, you know, etcetera.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I guess through this podcast you're speaking to older
people and younger people andKira and I are in our 20s and
other advocates and allies whoare also of all ages, so what
would you say to them about thework to bring about a convention
and how they can be involved inthe process?
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Well, I think it's just so interesting.
You know, more and more andmore and more people are talking
about the necessity ofintergenerational activities,
and I'm obviously all in favorof intergenerational activities,
but not if they're artificial.
Taking small children to go andsee older people in an old age
(38:07):
home, it's fine, but it's likeit's a one-off Christmas time or
maybe Easter time or on someoccasion, and it would be so
much nicer if we could just tryto work our societies to being
more integrated and less choppedup like a sausage, so I don't
know, just to try to get back toa society where there's
(38:30):
interaction across the wholescope.
You know I love to tell thisstory and it has to do with
lifelong learning.
In Africa One of our pioneerswas a wonderful man called Tom
Holloway and Tom was a computerengineer with IBM and he did his
whole career with IBM and hedied when he was 92.
(38:54):
So you know that whole expanseand growth of technology.
But however, when Tom retiredhe went to visit a friend of his
in India and he was absolutelyappalled at the way the
untouchables were treated inIndia and he decided that he
would like to do something withthem.
So he started to use hiscomputer knowledge and he bought
(39:20):
some computers and he startedteaching computers and this
ended up in Tom spending 16years in India.
He spent eight months a year inIndia and then four months back
in the UK teaching and trainingpeople and when he came back to
the UK it was because of hishealth.
And he then got involved withour groups in South Africa and
(39:43):
he helped us to set up aWhatsApp group for the
University of the Third Age inAfrica.
So we've got now the Universityof the Third Age WhatsApp group
in Zimbabwe and in Botswana andwe're planning to move further
up because the internet is veryexpensive in Africa.
(40:04):
Number one.
Number two the difficulties ofhaving a consistent electrical
supply is a big problem inAfrica.
So the way they do it now is,for example, it's the older
group and they would have, forexample, somebody talk to them
about dementia and then theperson would record six to eight
(40:27):
clips of 90 seconds each.
Just you know one would be whatis dementia, how do you
recognize it, and then what doyou do about it and who can help
you, et cetera.
And these were just shortlittle clips and then that's on
for a month and then everybodylistens to the clips, and then
there's a big exchange betweenthem you know this, and I've got
(40:51):
this, and I've got a grannythat puts this in my mother,
blah, blah, and so it goes, andthat, I think, is just a
wonderful, wonderful use oftechnology in a situation where
it would not be possibleotherwise yeah, I feel like this
whole conversation has reallygiven me a lot to think about
and opened my mind to.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
You know, even though the world is changing and there
is ageism that goes along withthat, and there's also more
opportunities then to change theway that we live for the better
.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Yeah, I think we all just have to become more and
more aware of how wonderful weare as human beings and that we
all every single one of us, hasincredible potential for just
becoming the best that we can.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
We really appreciate it andappreciate you taking the time
out of your day to be here withus.
Is there anything that wedidn't touch on that you would
like to maybe bring up?
Speaker 4 (41:56):
you know, I think just that, the, just that the
age, age is just a wonderfulgift.
You know, seriously, it's anabsolutely wonderful gift.
And if you get 60, 70, 80, andnow people are living, as we
said, more and more and longerand longer, it's an incredible
(42:20):
gift.
And when I was probably yourage, somewhere around there,
somebody said this to me and Ihave never, ever forgotten it.
And they said to me that fateis the relentless result of your
day-to-day activities, and Ithink that aging is very much
(42:41):
like that.
You know, you don't become wisebecause you're old.
There's stupid old people aswell.
I mean, you don't just graduateto wisdom, but it's your life's
experience that you accumulate.
If, going ahead, we all justrealize that life is an
(43:04):
incredible gift and we don'tknow for how long we've got it.
Today is the only day and it'llnever come again.
And that's what we need to doJust make every day the best day
, and then you'll age like anangel.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
Well, you've made my day today the best day.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
And I can feel it now , as I'm 78, going into my 80s.
You just have a different.
You know, your drive isdifferent.
What you're aiming at isdifferent.
It's evolved and, as I saidabout the book, I don't want to
go back.
I'm curious, I want to goforward, see what it's all about
(43:51):
.
It's been a pleasure speakingwith you.
Thank you, moira.
Yeah, I've enjoyed talking withyou too.
Okie dokes.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Have a good rest of your day, Moira.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Okay, lovely, thank you.
Have a good weekend.
Yeah you too, bye, bye.
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in our olderage?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:22):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions willshare with us why they care
about the rights of olderpersons and what they are doing
to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the Rights
of Older Persons into being,for you and for me, no matter
how old we are.
(00:43):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble HumanRights Day 2024 blog to find out
more that isA-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-Ecom and sign
the global petition for the UNConvention on the Rights of
(01:04):
Older Persons.
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us, enjoythis special initiative, and my
thanks to Margaret Young, thefounder of Age Noble for
(01:27):
bringing this opportunity to usto hear from these important
guests who promote the humanrights and the dignity of older
persons the world over.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hi, my name is Faith and I'm a guest interviewer on
today's Wisdom at Work podcast.
I am studying at university andI'm also currently volunteering
at the Global Alliance for theRights of Older Persons, and I
believe in protecting the rightsof older persons and I'm
looking forward to interviewingour guest today.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Hello, my name is Kira and I'm a guest interviewer
on today's Wisdom at Workpodcast.
I'm currently a universitystudent studying psychology,
with plans to specialize ingerontology.
I care deeply about supportingthe mental health and rights of
older adults.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So I'm really looking forward to speaking with our
guest today.
Today, we are joined by MoiraAllen.
Moira is based in Paris and sheis living a fulfilled life as a
lifelong learner.
Originally from South Africa,she built her career in
journalism, public relations,life coaching, training and
managing an occupational healthorganization in France.
She founded the Too Young toRetire Network in Europe and
(02:45):
went on to co-found, with JanHeigli PhD, the Pass it On
Network, a global grassroots,strength-based network of
positive aging pioneersadvocating for the rights of
older people, the adaptation ofsociety to the new opportunities
and challenges of longevity,and defying ageism through
action.
She is the internationalcoordinator of the network that
(03:07):
has spread to 65 countries onthe five continents, with
regional networks, including avery vital one in Southern
Africa.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Moira serves on several boards Old Up, an
avant-garde French associationwhose aim it is to give meaning
and utility to our longer lives.
Eureg, a non-profit NGO with150 member organizations in 27
European countries, and theInternational Longevity Center,
france.
(03:35):
She leads Old Ups Europe andthe World Global Group, intent
on learning from how othercountries are coping with our
global demographic phenomenon.
She serves on Age Platform,europe's task force on the
rights of older people.
She is on the mission committeeof CLEREN, a major European
player in the care industry thathas adopted the status of a
(03:57):
purpose-driven company,combining their economic and
social roles.
She's also a director of theWilton's Foundation in South
Africa, dedicated to ensuringinclusive and equitable quality
education and to lifelonglearning opportunities for all
in rural environments.
Moira, thank you so much forjoining us today.
(04:18):
We're thrilled to have you hereand truly appreciate you taking
the time to chat with us.
Let's start by diving into yourjourney.
Do you mind sharing a bit aboutyourself and what inspired you
to step into the world ofanti-ageism and
anti-discrimination advocacy?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Well, I guess the simple answer is that I'm
growing old, like everybodyaround the world, every single
day, and I've always beenfascinated by the life course
approach.
I studied psychology and thatwas the one aspect that
interested me and I kind of hada wonderful anticipation of what
(04:59):
I would be like when I got intothat stage where they say you
stop and you reflect and you goback on your life and you
appreciate it, and so forth andso on.
And I think that's why I get soangry when I see that whole
stage of life, which is the lasthalf of life Firstly, being
lumped from 60 to 100 as one biggroup.
(05:22):
You know, it's almost as if youput babies to 40 years in the
same group.
Do me a favor, but that's whathappens.
That really makes me angrybecause there's such interesting
variations in age.
I think that was basically thefirst thing.
Then I listened to Dr BillThomas, who's a very well-known
(05:45):
geriatrician in the UnitedStates, and he just had this
wonderful way, to my mind, ofexplaining it.
He said that from the timeyou're born and you come out of
your mother's womb and you getthat first clap on the back and
you take your breath and youstart breathing and you start
living.
Everyone has two imperativesand those imperatives are growth
(06:11):
and development.
And those imperatives stay withyou until your very last breath
and they move along with you,obviously as you develop and as
you grow and you move from stageto stage.
And life is a progression andthat's what the what ageism
doesn't understand, because it's.
(06:34):
It's just so amazing.
You know, every single person,without exception, grows older
day by day.
You know's no mystery.
That's what's happening.
And then, just as a littlesmirk, when you think of how
much time it takes to change anypolicies.
All the work that we're doingis for you guys, for the younger
(06:56):
people, because by the time youget through, I hope and pray
that we will have a conventionat the United Nations on these
issues.
That's so wonderful.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yes, do you mind defining what ageism is and what
that may look like?
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Well, I think ageism, simply defined, is a social
construct against age which putsthe emphasis onto age.
So you are classified as ageand that means that you're too
old or too young to do something, and it's a completely socially
(07:35):
constructed concept.
Ageism, which is different fromage discrimination, which is
actually the acts thatdiscriminate against people,
it's one of the last isms that'sacceptable, socially acceptable
(07:57):
.
But discrimination, for example, says that you can no longer
drive a motor car after such andsuch an age, or you can't have
a house loan after such and suchan age, or you can't have a
house loan after such and suchan age, or your employer stops
thinking of you as a validperson for ongoing learning when
you get to 45 or 50.
That's real discrimination,Whereas ageism itself tends more
(08:20):
to be on the emotional side,the perceptive side.
You know how people perceiveaging through just stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Would you say that ageism, I guess, leads to age
discrimination, or ageism iskind of the root of a lot of
this other lack of the right toself-autonomy and dignity and
being able to make your owndecisions as an older person.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I think that they kind of go hand in hand really.
And it's self-defeating to haveageist attitudes which lead to
discrimination anddiscrimination to the ageist
attitudes.
You know, it's just, it'sagainst the human progression of
life.
We're all going to be old andwe're all going to go through
different stages of life etcetera.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
What I think about a lot is that ageism manifests
when you're younger and itcompounds as you age.
What I was curious about is howa young person can maybe
reflect and how to recognizethat early on so it doesn't
become a problem at end of life.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
That's such an interesting point.
I was reading the other day andit was said that child's
attitude towards age isdeveloped very young around
about four somewhere like thatand it depends a lot on how that
child just perceives itsgrandparents or older people
around them.
So if those older people aresort of you know, miserable and
(09:51):
whatever, that's the kind ofattitude they take on, whereas
if they are blessed with youknow, dynamic grandparents who
are interested in life andcurious and so forth, that's how
the child will react.
So, carrying that forward, weall have a tremendous
responsibility because we'reenacting all the time how we
(10:14):
live our age.
And that's, I think, a veryimportant point.
And from my own point of view, Ididn't know any of my
grandparents didn't have anygrandparents.
I didn't know any of mygrandparents didn't have any
grandparents.
And the oldest person that Ican remember as a child was my
Auntie Totti, and Auntie Totti,to me as a little girl, always
(10:37):
looked as though she had toomuch powder on her face and her
lipstick was always a bit squiff, and she used to have lots of
jewelry.
That's right, but she was ajolly soul.
She was always laughing andfull of jewelry, that's right,
but she was a jolly soul.
She was always laughing andfull of beans, so I was lucky to
have that as an image.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, I guess that just shows how it doesn't have
to be your grandparents, but itcan be any person that you look
up to and see in your life,right, I would want to ask how
do you think ageism and agediscrimination then link to the
human rights of older people andthe fight for a UN convention?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Well, it's one of those very, very important
things.
There's so many differentinstruments around the world,
but there's nothing really thatties it all together.
And I think that is the mostimportant thing, because we all
have our rights and they aredefended in the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,which doesn't specifically
mention aging or age.
(11:33):
And I think, if you reflect onthat just for five seconds, it's
because when it was created, 75plus years ago, aging wasn't an
issue.
It just wasn't.
We've had this incredibleacceleration of life over a
tremendously short period oftime and as that acceleration
(11:57):
continues, so the weight of theolder person in society just
grows.
So it's just extremelyimportant for those rights to be
codified and to put into someform that can become legally
binding.
People are skeptical and theysay, yes, but everything exists
(12:20):
and it's all a question ofimplementation, and I tend to
agree.
And it's all a question ofimplementation, and I tend to
agree.
But it is so important to havethem down in writing and become
legally binding on all thenations.
We all know that not everynation is going to apply them,
but they can be held to accountand people then have recourse
(12:42):
and they can go throughdifferent areas and have their
case put forward, and that isjust so important it really is,
so that equality can be assuredfor everybody.
It's such a long way.
You know, I work a lot withAfrica and there's such a
tremendous difference betweenAfrica and the so-called
(13:05):
developed world, on the positiveand on the negative side.
In the African communitiesthere's still a lot of
family-based care andfamily-based tradition, poverty,
and that poverty is often adriver to excessive behavior,
(13:26):
really excessive and awfulbehavior Sometimes, when older
people are accused of witchcraft, for example, that can happen.
I'm not please don't think I'msaying this happens throughout
Africa and all the time, but itis a horrible thing which is
driven by basic economic things.
If people get accused ofwitchcraft, then their
(13:47):
possessions get taken away fromthem and they get hounded out of
the community, that kind ofthing.
So there's so many differentaspects, but on the other hand,
it's so important that all thesecountries go, and I must say
here that I was really happy tonotice that the African Union
has its own code in this respect, and it's only recently that
(14:12):
Nigeria became the one countrythat tipped that process into
law, because up until then therewere 15 different countries in
Africa that ratified theprotocol, and then Nigeria
became just recently a couple ofmonths ago the 16th, and that
was the minimum amount of numberof countries that were required
(14:34):
to activate their own protocolor the rights of older people.
So that's super.
As far as the rest of the worldis concerned, it's a step ahead
and should be followed.
I think one of the main aspectsis to have the convention,
which would lay down all thedifferent rules and regulations,
and that countries would thenhave to ratify that and then
(14:58):
imply it, and if they don'tapply it, it's monitored and you
can report on what they're notdoing.
So that's why I think it's justso important to go ahead and
drive and to get this off theground now.
It's been talked about for solong.
It really is high time that itcomes into being.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And do you mind sharing some things that you and
others have done to eliminateageism, age discrimination and
to promote the human rights ofolder people?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
We work a lot with Age Platform in Europe and
attend different meetings andparticipate in different work
groups on all these questionsabout dignified aging, long-term
care, age-friendly cities.
So that is quite a big,important part of the work that
we do.
And then in Africa we work withcountries.
(15:54):
We've got a network in SouthernAfrica which consists of
members in South Africa, inBotswana, in Zimbabwe, in Zambia
, in Lesotho, and that is suchinteresting work and they're all
working towards that.
And the interesting thing isthat in most of the
(16:15):
constitutions of these countriesthey have excellent frameworks,
excellent policies.
There just sometimes is a bigissue with the actual
implementation of the policies,but they're way ahead of many
countries in terms of what thepolicies actually say.
So our biggest thing is to tryto raise awareness and to talk
(16:39):
about ageism, and especially totalk about ageism in terms of
self-inflicted ageism.
I'm a very, very, very, verystrong advocate for people
waking up to their own strengthand their own agency, because
there are millions and millionsand millions of older people in
(17:01):
the world.
So if they were all to stand upfor themselves, there would be
far less ageism, because itwould simply be taken for
granted.
And I always like to relatethis story because people say
that there's a lot of differenceand it's difficult to do
something.
But if you're interested in acertain subject and let's take a
(17:25):
subject like climate change orthe SDGs of the United Nations
and you become interested inthat and, as an older person,
you join an organization that isnot an older person's
organization, but anorganization that is involved
with one of these objectives,one of these massive problems
that are facing our world, andyou start working within that
(17:47):
organization.
Age just disappears, it simplydoesn't matter, because you are
then contributing to a commongoal shared with the other
people there.
And whether you're 60, 70, 80,or whether you're 18 or 24, if
there's a job to be done and youcan do it and you can
contribute.
(18:08):
That is the best way of workingaround these issues.
And the other thing that I thinkis so important is that we look
at ourselves and we check ourown language and we check our
own attitudes.
So often you hear peopletalking about oh, I'm having a
senior moment.
(18:28):
But, as Ashton Applewhite sooften says I think I just love
the way she says it she saidwhen I was at university and I
mislaid my keys, I didn't say,oh, I'm having a junior moment.
Everybody throughout their lifedoes these things, but we
mustn't take on what society isbusy projecting to us.
(18:50):
On the contrary, we need toreflect that we're curious, that
we're wanting to live, thatwe're wanting to contribute and
that we are doing those things.
And I think that is the mostimportant work that we do
working with people around theworld on just being, but being
active and being involved andthat radiates out.
(19:11):
You become a role model thatother people can watch.
For example, this is one that Ireally love One of our Pass it
On Network members, whom we callpioneers, because Pass it On
Network P-I-O-N it's not a veryattractive acronym.
We prefer to call ourselvespioneers Okay, pioneers.
(19:36):
And this is a woman calledSheena Edwards and she lives in
Perth in Australia, and when sheretired she was given a tablet
and she didn't know how to workit, although she had been in
computers, the big computers.
So she went about learning howto work her iPad and that was
(19:58):
now 12 years ago, and since thenshe's created and grown a whole
organization, and the nicething about that is it's seniors
helping other seniors.
So as soon as she gets newpeople in, they're so pleased
that they're learning how tomanipulate the digital world,
(20:19):
and then they can show somebodyelse who's just at a beginner
stage, and she started endlessnumbers of little clubs like
that, where it's a win-win allaround.
The people are very proud ofthemselves, the people who
become teachers are reallyengaged, and this is what I mean
by being active and alsogenerative and creative in this
(20:42):
stage of our lives.
Not sitting there, kenDeitchfield.
He always talks about literallymillions of people old people
standing in the wings waiting tobe invited onto the stage.
But that's not going to happen.
We have to create our own stageand get on with it.
And you know, it just seems tome so clear it seems like it's
(21:06):
quite a big mountain to climb.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
What challenges have you faced trying to champion for
that?
Speaker 4 (21:13):
I think the biggest challenge is just getting around
society's kind of obstinacy innot recognizing what's going on,
Because the world is changingand it's changing rapidly and
the number of older people isjust growing and growing and
growing, and that requiresradical changes in absolutely
everything.
I think that the work that theStanford University is doing is
(21:38):
absolutely outstanding.
They're trying to plan for thehundred-year life which affects
everybody.
I mean, just think of it, Justthink of your teeth.
If you're going to live for ahundred years, you better take
care of your teeth.
Think of your teeth If you'regoing to live for 100 years, you
better take care of your teeth.
And then there's the wholequestion of lifelong learning.
(21:59):
The standard pattern up untilnow has been that you go to
school and then you go touniversity and you get a career
and then you move on.
But things are changing sorapidly and so quickly that you
have to keep on re-educatingyourself or getting new
information, because otherwiseyou'll be outdated.
So Stanford University isworking on the whole idea of
(22:20):
periods of training, periods ofworking periods of training,
periods of relaxation, et ceteraa whole new way of looking at
life.
And this is exciting and Ican't see why people around the
world don't find the excitementin that and the curiosity and
see the possibilities forinnovating, because it seriously
(22:41):
is changing so much.
There's not these three blocksof life.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I really like the message.
You're not done living justbecause you reach 65.
And you mentioned kind of olderpeople having unique
experiences and possibly evenfirst chances later in life.
Were there any experiences likethat that you had that you
wouldn't have otherwise expectedwhen you were young?
(23:06):
Me?
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Sure, I seriously think that I've had the most
wonderful last 15 to 20 yearsthrough the creation of the
Parsadon Network.
I'm the co-founder of that witha wonderful person called Dr
Jan Hively, and how we got goingI always like to tell the story
was that I went off to thefirst ever Positive Aging
(23:34):
Conference in Florida in 2007.
And that's where I met JanHively, and she was running a
workshop that was calledMeaningful Work, paid or Unpaid,
through the Last Breath, and Iwas just so fascinated by this
(23:57):
because this goes back to what Isaid right at the beginning,
that every age has itsdevelopment tasks and I thought
this was wonderful.
So I stood in the long queue ofpeople who wanted to speak to
her at the end and I handed hermy little card.
At the stage, I was running anoccupational health organization
in France, in the Paris area,and I said to her if ever you
come to Paris, come and come andtalk to our medical doctors in
(24:19):
the occupational field, becauseat that stage, which was 2008,
the whole question of age in theworkplace wasn't an issue,
which it has now become more andmore so.
A year later, she contacted meand said I'm going to be coming
to Paris.
So she came and I introducedher to Dr Francoise Fauret, who
(24:46):
was Mrs Gerontology in France atthat time, and we organized a
huge conference with the medicaldoctors of the whole Paris
region and it was the first timethat they had actually studied
this whole issue of age in theworkplace.
And from then on we created thePass it On Network.
(25:07):
And Pass it On is to pass onwhatever experience you have
accumulated, basically to helpyourself first and foremost.
Secondly, to help your familyand to help your community and
remain engaged.
And it was built on anorganization that I created in
Europe called Too Young toRetire, which was started in the
(25:31):
United States by a super couplecalled Howard and Marika Stone
and they were way ahead of thetrend.
But I mean the trend hashappened so quickly because of
the baby boomers coming up.
They started in the year 2000and they were ahead of the trend
, together with Mark Friedmanwho had his civic ventures
(25:51):
organization.
So these things are just peoplewho've been alive to what is
happening and adjusted the life.
And the whole thing about tooyoung to retire was to retire,
that horrible word of retirement.
It's like just switch off.
It's awful, it's retreat, it'swithdrawal, it's just not on.
(26:14):
So you don't have to carry onworking per se, but you don't
retire from life.
You keep on living, and in anappropriate way to your
circumstances, health andeverything.
The whole question of age inthe workplace wasn't an issue,
which it has now become more andmore so.
(26:37):
A year later she contacted meand said I'm going to be coming
to Paris.
So she came and I introduced herto Dr Françoise Fauré, who was
Mrs Gerontology in France atthat time, and we organized a
huge conference with the medicaldoctors of the whole Paris
(26:58):
region and it was the first timethat they had actually studied
this whole issue of age in theworkplace.
And from then on we created thePass it On Network, and Pass it
On is to pass on whateverexperience you have accumulated,
basically to help yourselffirst and foremost.
(27:21):
Secondly to help your family andto help your community and
remain engaged.
And it was built on anorganization that I created in
Europe called Too Young toRetire, which was started in the
United States by a super couplecalled Howard and Marika Stone,
and they were way ahead of thetrend, but I mean the trend has
(27:43):
happened so quickly because ofthe baby boomers coming up.
They started in the year 2000,.
And they were ahead of thetrend, together with Mark
Friedman who had his CivicVentures organization.
So these things are just peoplewho've been alive to what is
happening and adjusted theirlife.
And the whole thing about tooyoung to retire was to retire
(28:07):
that horrible word of retirement, it's like just switch off.
It's awful, it's retreat, it'swithdrawal, it's just not on.
So you don't have to carry onworking per se, but you don't
retire from life.
You keep on living and in anappropriate way to your
(28:28):
circumstances, health andeverything else.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I want to touch a bit more on retirement and ageism
in the workplace.
Do you have any thoughts onwhat organizations can do to
become more aware of their rolein ageism, and if there's
anything that they canpotentially do to eliminate it?
Speaker 4 (28:48):
Well, I think that necessity is forcing people and
forcing companies to realizewhat's going on, and I can just
quote in Germany, for example,they're bringing back retired
people because they don't havesufficient skilled people to
fulfill the jobs, and this kindof thing is happening more and
more.
But I think that there's somuch work being done in this
(29:11):
field.
You know, in the States we'vegot Janine van den Berg who's
been really pushing this wholeissue for such a long time of
equity in the workplace and theright place for older people.
We've got from our Parsitalnetwork, linda Smith in South
Africa that runs an organizationcalled 50 Plus Skills and she's
(29:34):
been working for years now withthe big companies to show them
the importance of, number one,preparing people who are getting
towards the retirement age, notto stop working or anything
like that, but maybe to havesome kind of flexibility in the
changing roles and also toincrease the number of people
(29:57):
still at work in the 60 to 70age group.
That's what is really requiredand you can see many, many
different examples today.
For example, in some bigmanagement companies like
PricewaterhouseCoopers Group,they have, I think, an age limit
for their partners and thentheir partners are expected to
(30:19):
go off and create something orto work with other people, so
that's very good.
In France, I know there are twothings.
There's the OECD that's beenworking very, very hard with big
companies to get them tounderstand the importance of
maintaining older workers.
And then there's anotherrecently formed organization I
(30:43):
forget the name for the moment,but they are now it's a group of
it's like a club of bigcompanies.
The human resource people areall working together and working
on this whole issue ofmaintaining people in the
workplace and continuingeducation, which is so important
(31:06):
.
So I think there's very much tobe said about that.
So I think there's very much tobe said about that.
And there's a great deal ofresearch that has been done on
the effectiveness of age,diverse work teams.
In startups, for example, youget a far better success rate
(31:29):
when you have a mixed team theolder and the younger than when
you have an all-young team or anall-older team.
And I think, if you think aboutit, it's just totally logical.
You know, the older people havethe experience and the younger
people have the tech and thedrive and the curiosity and all
(31:51):
the rest of it, and the mix isjust it stands more chances of
winning.
So I think that we're actuallyliving at the moment, a major
change that is going on becauseof the lack of workers, of
(32:13):
workers, and it's going toincrease, because we're already
seeing the articles about thestart of the depopulation of the
world sorry, I just wanted toadd, like how you said, it was
totally logical to have, uhteams in the workplace that are
mixed like depending on age.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I think yeah, just like how you would want to bring
in perspectives from people ofdifferent backgrounds or races,
different people of differentgenders.
It's kind of the same idea,right.
So yeah, absolutely makes totalsense yeah, no, and I've been.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
You know, obviously, one reads a lot of these things
and what we need, as for aging,is what happened with, uh, with
women.
You know how quickly has thatchanged women in the workplace,
and more and more equality, andmore and more equal pay for
equal work, etc.
Etc.
And that's what we need tohappen with aging, and that
(33:12):
women's rights have beenincreased incredibly over a
short period of time.
So we need to do the same thingfor ages, but it's not to fight
for an age, it's not that atall, in my feeling.
It's to fight for anunderstanding of the life course
(33:34):
, and that it's rich and thateverything you know it's like a
book.
You know a fabulous book thatyou've read.
I don't want to go back andread Chapter 1.
You know, you've read it,you've enjoyed it, you've
assimilated it and life is aprogression and it just gets
(33:58):
deeper and better.
So, anyway, that's the way Ifeel.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Moira, if you're comfortable, do you mind sharing
any personal experiences thatyou've had with ageism?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Well, I think one that really gave me a shock was
I'm busy sitting working happilyat my computer and the doorbell
rings.
So I go there and there's thisfellow and he's got a whole
stack of papers and an iPad ontop of it and he says that he's
from the local utility company.
I said yes and he said okay.
(34:36):
So first of all I just have toask you a few questions, okay,
so name and address andtelephone number, and then age.
So I say my age.
I think I must have been 72 atthe time.
So I say my age.
I think I must have been 72 atthe time.
So he closes his iPad and hesays you're too old, I can't
talk to you, literally like that.
(34:56):
So what do you mean?
I'm too old and you can't talkto me.
He said haven't you gotsomebody under 70 in your
household that I can talk to?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Anyway, that was it.
He couldn't talk to me becauseI didn't fit to his standard.
And then there was another casethat was also quite interesting
.
I've been going to the samegynecologist for forever, and
the last time I went to her shedidn't do a pap smear.
(35:38):
I said, oh, aren't you going todo a pap smear?
And she said no.
And I said why?
And she said well, it's notcovered by the Social Security
after a certain age.
I said, oh, that's very strange.
She said yes, because the papsmear is designed basically to
(35:59):
detect sexually transmissiblediseases, so the Social Security
obviously expects you not tohave any sexual activity after a
certain age, because then youcan't catch the disease.
That was quite an interestingthing.
That happened as well.
(36:19):
So you have these odd thingsthat happen and make you realize
.
Then, there are far moreserious things.
That that happen, though, isthat, for example, if you want
to get a house loan or you wantto rent an apartment, and you
(36:41):
suddenly find that the peoplerenting the apartment now want
your last three bulletinspaychecks.
So if you retired and yourretirement is obviously a
fraction of what your earningcapacity was you really have
difficulty getting a renting anapartment.
(37:03):
You know those kind of thingswhich are very serious.
And insurance also.
Sometimes in insurancecompanies it's limited in terms
of age.
If you travel, the travelinsurance is much more expensive
.
The older you get, you know, etcetera.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I guess through this podcast you're speaking to older
people and younger people andKira and I are in our 20s and
other advocates and allies whoare also of all ages, so what
would you say to them about thework to bring about a convention
and how they can be involved inthe process?
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Well, I think it's just so interesting.
You know, more and more andmore and more people are talking
about the necessity ofintergenerational activities,
and I'm obviously all in favorof intergenerational activities,
but not if they're artificial.
Taking small children to go andsee older people in an old age
(38:07):
home, it's fine, but it's likeit's a one-off Christmas time or
maybe Easter time or on someoccasion, and it would be so
much nicer if we could just tryto work our societies to being
more integrated and less choppedup like a sausage, so I don't
know, just to try to get back toa society where there's
(38:30):
interaction across the wholescope.
You know I love to tell thisstory and it has to do with
lifelong learning.
In Africa One of our pioneerswas a wonderful man called Tom
Holloway and Tom was a computerengineer with IBM and he did his
whole career with IBM and hedied when he was 92.
(38:54):
So you know that whole expanseand growth of technology.
But however, when Tom retiredhe went to visit a friend of his
in India and he was absolutelyappalled at the way the
untouchables were treated inIndia and he decided that he
would like to do something withthem.
So he started to use hiscomputer knowledge and he bought
(39:20):
some computers and he startedteaching computers and this
ended up in Tom spending 16years in India.
He spent eight months a year inIndia and then four months back
in the UK teaching and trainingpeople and when he came back to
the UK it was because of hishealth.
And he then got involved withour groups in South Africa and
(39:43):
he helped us to set up aWhatsApp group for the
University of the Third Age inAfrica.
So we've got now the Universityof the Third Age WhatsApp group
in Zimbabwe and in Botswana andwe're planning to move further
up because the internet is veryexpensive in Africa.
(40:04):
Number one.
Number two the difficulties ofhaving a consistent electrical
supply is a big problem inAfrica.
So the way they do it now is,for example, it's the older
group and they would have, forexample, somebody talk to them
about dementia and then theperson would record six to eight
(40:27):
clips of 90 seconds each.
Just you know one would be whatis dementia, how do you
recognize it, and then what doyou do about it and who can help
you, et cetera.
And these were just shortlittle clips and then that's on
for a month and then everybodylistens to the clips, and then
there's a big exchange betweenthem you know this, and I've got
(40:51):
this, and I've got a grannythat puts this in my mother,
blah, blah, and so it goes, andthat, I think, is just a
wonderful, wonderful use oftechnology in a situation where
it would not be possibleotherwise yeah, I feel like this
whole conversation has reallygiven me a lot to think about
and opened my mind to.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
You know, even though the world is changing and there
is ageism that goes along withthat, and there's also more
opportunities then to change theway that we live for the better
.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Yeah, I think we all just have to become more and
more aware of how wonderful weare as human beings and that we
all every single one of us, hasincredible potential for just
becoming the best that we can.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
We really appreciate it andappreciate you taking the time
out of your day to be here withus.
Is there anything that wedidn't touch on that you would
like to maybe bring up?
Speaker 4 (41:56):
you know, I think just that, the, just that the
age, age is just a wonderfulgift.
You know, seriously, it's anabsolutely wonderful gift.
And if you get 60, 70, 80, andnow people are living, as we
said, more and more and longerand longer, it's an incredible
(42:20):
gift.
And when I was probably yourage, somewhere around there,
somebody said this to me and Ihave never, ever forgotten it.
And they said to me that fateis the relentless result of your
day-to-day activities, and Ithink that aging is very much
(42:41):
like that.
You know, you don't become wisebecause you're old.
There's stupid old people aswell.
I mean, you don't just graduateto wisdom, but it's your life's
experience that you accumulate.
If, going ahead, we all justrealize that life is an
(43:04):
incredible gift and we don'tknow for how long we've got it.
Today is the only day and it'llnever come again.
And that's what we need to doJust make every day the best day
, and then you'll age like anangel.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
Well, you've made my day today the best day.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
And I can feel it now , as I'm 78, going into my 80s.
You just have a different.
You know, your drive isdifferent.
What you're aiming at isdifferent.
It's evolved and, as I saidabout the book, I don't want to
go back.
I'm curious, I want to goforward, see what it's all about
(43:51):
.
It's been a pleasure speakingwith you.
Thank you, moira.
Yeah, I've enjoyed talking withyou too.
Okie dokes.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Have a good rest of your day, Moira.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Okay, lovely, thank you.
Have a good weekend.
Yeah you too, bye, bye.
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