Welcome! This is ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast: Elderwomen, Older women and Grandmothers on the Move!
What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series... 'Age With Rights and Dignity' - 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world. These committed champions and advocates will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons, and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the rights of older persons into being - for you and me, no matter how old we are now!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in ourolder age?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:22):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions willshare with us why they care
about the rights of olderpersons and what they are doing
to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the Rights
of Older Persons into being,for you and for me, no matter
how old we are.
(00:43):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble HumanRights Day 2024 blog to find out
more that isA-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-Ecom and sign
the global petition for the UNConvention on the Rights of
(01:04):
Older Persons.
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us, enjoythis special initiative, and my
thanks to Margaret Young, thefounder of Age Noble for
(01:27):
bringing this opportunity to usto hear from these important
guests who promote the humanrights and the dignity of older
persons the world over.
Welcome back to Wisdom at Work.
I'm really delighted to have awonderful guest today, dr Nenna
Royancy, who is a trained lawyerspecialized in human rights and
social protection, who's beenworking since 2010 coordinating
(01:50):
the work on human rights anddiscrimination for Age Platform
Europe, which aims to voice andpromote the rights of older
people in the European Union andraise awareness on the issues
that concern them most.
Nena holds a PhD in law fromthe National University of
Ireland in Galway, where she isalso an adjunct lecturer, and
has participated in the draftingof the Council of Europe
(02:10):
Recommendation on Rights ofOlder Persons and has consulted
the UN Office of the HighCommissioner for Human Rights
and the International LabourOrganization, the ILO.
She's actively involved in thepolitical process around a new
UN Convention on the Rights ofOlder Persons, representing age
to the Council of Europe and theUN Working Group to strengthen
(02:30):
older people's rights, and hasserved as Deputy Chair of the
Global Alliance for the Rightsof Older Persons.
Nena is the author of severalreports, articles and co-author
of a book on law, aging andageism.
Nena, it is wonderful to haveyou here to talk to us today
about the UN Convention on theRights of Older Persons.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Hi, lana, delighted to be with you, thanks.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Thanks for joining us .
I wanted to start sort of on apersonal note.
Obviously you have anillustrious career and we have a
lot to talk about around humanrights and the human rights of
older persons, but I thoughtwe'd start with what has drawn
you to a career in promoting thehuman rights of older persons
and human rights in general.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, so it's not an easy question.
I guess that from a younger ageI was attracted to professions
that had to do, you know, withwider good, with sustainability,
you know with the human dignityand the shared values that we
have in society.
So initially I wanted to becomesomething like a marine
biologist.
But then I was introduced tothe world of human rights when I
(03:31):
had the opportunity as astudent to participate in the
model United Nations andEuropean Youth Forum, which are
like mock-up sessions of how theEuropean Parliament and the
United Nations work, and this iswhere I found out what
political decision-making is,and I was involved in the human
rights committees in thoseinstances and then I said, ok,
(03:53):
this sounds like interestingwork.
So that's what kind of sparkedthe interest in that.
But of course at that time Ididn't know what human rights in
practice meant, and even lessso what human rights in older
people meant.
But I was drawn to the agingsector from an early age because
I think, as many of us, becauseof the experience I had with my
(04:16):
own grandparents, in particularmy grandmother, who I found
that compared to my othergrandparents she was less mobile
and kind of bound at home, andalthough she has always been
very close to us.
I always wonder what, you knowhow her life could have been if
(04:37):
you know, the circumstancesaround her were different.
And so when I found out that you, you know, there were
organizations working in thefield of aging, I was really
it's a bit like attracted tothat, but of course, I never
actually pursued, you know, acareer in aging and human rights
, because that doesn't evenexist today, but it does still.
(04:58):
You know, something thatmotivates me is that, and and
the fact actually, because agingand human rights is an emerging
field is really, how do you doyou make it work like we're all
participating in this, uh, inthe development of this field,
and how you know the humanrights that we all have, what do
they mean in the context, youknow, of aging, uh, both
(05:19):
personal, individual aging, butalso you know the demographic
context, like you know, becausehuman rights are also very
dynamic, and how can they bealso, you know, fulfilled and
realized in this context?
So it's really about this ideaabout human rights in, you know,
being localized, being concretein the everyday context.
Like Eleanor Roosevelt used tosay, you know that human rights
(05:40):
are about what happens in smallplaces.
So this, you know this ideathat still drives me today.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Beautiful.
That makes complete sense to meand there are a lot of people
who work with people who areaging in place, people in
long-term care homes, olderpeople in our communities, our
families and do it from theperspective of service delivery.
And do it from the perspectiveof service delivery and we all
believe, I think and cansubscribe to since we're all
(06:08):
aging and we'll all end up thereone day that older people
should be treated with dignityand fairly and with care and
respect in our societies.
But there's a particular lens,a particular way of thinking
about older persons as havinghuman rights.
And when we talk about agingand programs and policies, I
wanted to ask you, nena, why isit important to think about this
(06:31):
and to do the work and theadvocacy around this through the
lens of human rights?
Why are they so important tothe discussion?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So I mean from the outset, I just want to say that
it's not either or, so it's notthat we either have human rights
or we have services.
On the contrary, I think it isvery much a dialogue, in the
sense that we have human rightsand this can really help us get
better services so that we canall age equally and live full
(07:00):
and fulfilled lives.
But why I think it's importantto really have also this lens of
human rights is because humanrights is something that we are
not given because you know wedeserve it, or as a compensation
about something that we havedone or have not done, but it
seems something that we havejust for the simple reason of
being human and in somethingthat cannot be taken away,
(07:23):
something that we should allhave 365 days of the year in all
places of the world.
Policies are not like that.
Policies are negotiable.
So sometimes there will be, youknow, priorities, certain types
of policies in certain types ofgroups.
Starting points of policies isoften because you know people
are vulnerable or have needs ordeserve attention, or you know
(07:44):
seeing people as welfarerecipients, as opposed to rights
, which are, like I said, notonly belong to everyone, because
we're all rights holders.
They are also based on legalobligations, so there are
obligations to deliver that, sothey're less negotiable.
It doesn't mean that it's easyto apply them, but the starting
point is different.
So, whereas in terms ofpolicies, we can be advancing in
(08:05):
one area and interested in that, but they're also interested as
(08:26):
much as in inputs, also outputs, so that we can see, you know,
what is the progress.
You know what are we actuallydoing?
Are we making you know, havingmore equal outcomes?
Are we having more inclusion?
You know, but also about theprocess, how is this happening?
Are all two people involved inthat decision making?
The other important thing isthat you know when, sometimes,
when we focus just on theservices and the people that we
(08:49):
serve, we often focus on theindividual deficits or the
weaknesses and not so much onthe societal barriers.
Yet what we often see inpractice that a lot of the
issues that we see in societytalking more from the experience
of older people, but it can beabout other groups as well has
to do with societal barriers.
It can be about the environment, it can be about, you know,
(09:11):
prejudice, it can be about, youknow, a reallocation of
resources, and these are thingsthat come into play when we have
a discussion about rights, butless so when it comes to or not,
let's say in a comprehensiveway when it comes to policies.
So these are all the thingsthat we can gain when we put,
you know, the frame of humanrights alongside the police.
(09:31):
But of course, human rights byitself, on its own, does not
mean anything.
It has to be materializedthrough policies that are
rights-based.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I like very much how you've explained it and, in
addition, I'm thinking about howimportant it is to characterize
the needs of older people ashuman rights, in the same way
that we've come to think aboutthe rights of children, the
rights of women, the rights ofLGBTQ plus communities, that we
don't think of it more assomething lovely and ethical to
(10:01):
do, but rather a group deservingof human rights.
And in that context, I wantedto ask you Europe already has
human rights standards andinstruments, so why is it that
NGOs, non-governmentalorganizations, are championing
change?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
First, to pick up on something that you just said,
referring to the fact that youknow, for other groups we might
be accepting more the rightslanguage and what the added
value of that is.
And I think this is exactlywhat we're looking at when it
comes to older people, and itrelates to the question that you
just asked.
When it comes to older people,the fact that we're not using
the human rights languageactually allows us to perhaps
(10:37):
undermine or neglect, overlooksome of the injustices of the
human rights violations, theinequalities, the abuses that we
see in practice.
So the very framing of rightsdoes give a little bit more
gravity alongside what I said interms of obligation, access to
remedy and claiming of rights,but even in terms of the
(10:58):
discourse, it does give moregravity to some issues.
So when we're talking aboutwomen's rights and violence
against women, these are thingsthat the society will have
accepted as human rightsviolations.
I don't think we're yet there.
When we're talking about youknow violence against older
people, when we're talking aboutdiscrimination faced against
older people, and we can talkabout the different you know
manifestations of that in awhile.
(11:19):
So that is one of the reasonswhy we in Europe are talking
about that, but it's certainlynot new.
And you are right.
We have a lot of human rightsstandards, both when it comes to
general human rights standardsthat apply to everyone in
society, but also when it comesto the rights of older people
more specifically.
So the Council of Europe wasthe first regional organization
(11:41):
that actually included aspecific provision in the
revised European social charterthat has to do with the rights
of the elderly, and a similarprovision has been later
included in the Charter ofFundamental Rights of the
European Union.
But the reality is different,and the reality of ageism is
something that is highlyprevalent in Europe and across
the world.
We know that one out of twopeople globally are ageist
(12:04):
against older people, but theproblem is, like I said, that at
the same time, ageism is verysocially accepted.
It's so socially accepted thatwe basically ignore it and do
nothing about it.
This has played out in adevastating way in the pandemic,
where, of course, also aroundEurope, we have seen high
numbers, very high numbers ofdeath amongst older people, some
(12:24):
of which could definitely havebeen avoided.
But these are not only, youknow, in the extreme cases of
the pandemic, where we seesituations of how age is being
used.
That leads to human rightsviolations.
So we have age limits in allareas of life that are widely
considered as normal, and thenwe also lack the tools to
challenge them.
So, for example, in the pandemic, where we saw that age was used
(12:45):
as a criterion to deny accessto health treatment, emergency
health treatment, differentparts of the world, first this
was considered as normal and itwas used in practice and second,
we didn't have any legalobligations that said that this
should not happen.
In practice, disability wasalso being used in the beginning
, but because there is aConvention on the Rights of
Persons with Disabilities,disability organizations and
(13:08):
activists and individuals withdisabilities were able to a
better extent.
Of course, the reality isalways difficult, but they were
able to some extent fightagainst the use of disability in
such decision making.
When it comes to age and as acriterion, this has not happened
and this is not only the case.
As I said, in the pandemic, wesee that age is being used as a
(13:28):
criterion, for example, in termsof accessing mobility
allowances, other type ofdisability benefits, mental
health care, education, in-worktraining, access to care and
anything in between.
You know research, the examplesare there.
In between, you know research,the examples are there.
It's not only that there is thisdiscrimination in practice, but
(13:49):
the laws, the courts, humanright parties sometimes reflect
the same biases that we as asociety have.
So we have court cases inEurope that accept mandatory
retirement ages as a generallyacceptable based on a general
experience.
This is what the court says,that you know there is a general
experience and not even basedon a general experience.
This is what the court says,that there is a general
experience, not even based onscientific evidence or
(14:11):
statistics, because this did notexist in practice that there is
a decline in the capacity to dowork and the fitness to work.
There is also court cases inEurope that say that a woman's
highest attainable standard ofsexual health is less important
over a certain age, so theyaccept a different type of
treatment or less compensation,etc.
So these are the realities thatwe try to fight at European
(14:34):
level.
This is the very raison d'etre,the reason why an organization
like Age Platform Europe wasestablished over 20 years ago.
But we also see that how ageplays out in the European
policies is also a kind of formof systemic ageism, in that the
European Union has adoptedstrategies to address
(14:54):
discrimination faced by othergroups at risk of discrimination
for covering issues of gender,of disability, of race and
ethnic origin, roma peoplebasically all the grounds that
are covered by the Europeantreaties, except for age
discrimination.
So that is why we, as civilsociety, come together in order
to see the change and to helpsee the change that we need.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And that actually leads neatly into something else
that I wanted to ask you.
I wonder if you can elaborate alittle bit more about Age
Platform Europe, but also whyit's so important to strategize
and to advocate as a network, asa coalition of non-governmental
organizations for the rights ofolder people.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
So Age Platform Europe is an umbrella
organization, so we have memberorganizations across European
countries.
It exists since 2001.
And the reason of its existenceis, you know, really to bring
the voice of older people inparticular in European policy
debates.
So I think there's more andmore recognition that, you know,
(15:54):
a lot of the decisions that aremade in Brussels, at European
level, also affect all of usalso working and living across
different parts of Europe.
So age is not unique in thesense that other groups have
similar organizationsrepresenting, you know, the
rights of different groups, beit women, be it LGBTI, be it
people with disabilities, be itthe Roma population.
(16:15):
So age is just anotherorganization that is focusing,
let's say, on older people atthe European level.
So the main way that age triesto do this is first to build
capacity of older persons asself-advocates.
So we have, within AGE PlatformEurope, organizations that are
both self-advocacy organizations, so that are run and managed,
(16:37):
directed by older personsthemselves, often on a volunteer
basis.
But also we have someorganizations that are either
more charities, serviceproviders or organizations that
work for and with older people.
But you know, this issue ofself-advocacy is something that
is key to the organization.
So we want to bring olderpeople themselves to speak about
(16:58):
their rights and to do thatalso both at the national level,
but also at the European andinternational level.
Another important part of thework is really connecting the
organizations together so thatthey can exchange experiences
and learn from each other, andto bring this diversity also
from the members, the olderpeople that they represent in
their countries and, of course,to make sure that everything
(17:20):
that we say and that werepresent in those discussions
that we participate at theEuropean, international level is
really based on the livedrealities of older people.
So there is this bottom-upapproach.
It's really important in theorganisation but there is also
some top-down approach, whichmeans that the role that the
organisation plays is reallytrying to help organisations
(17:42):
that represent older personsnavigate, let's say, the
European and internationalpolicy landscape.
So there's this capacitybuilding, this information
sharing from the top down aswell, so that then the
organization that we work with,the self-advocates, can use this
information.
They can also advocate forchange.
At a different level.
There are different let's say,perhaps, in terms of using some
(18:03):
examples of why this isimportant.
Let's say, perhaps, in terms ofusing some examples of why this
is important At the EU level.
We have legislation, forexample, covering age
discrimination alongside othergrounds in access to employment
in the field of employment, butthere is no legislation that
(18:27):
would prohibit discriminationage discrimination alongside
other forms of discriminationoutside the field of employment.
So it has been one of theorganizations behind the
proposal that has been done atthe EU level since 2008, aiming
to extend the scope of EUlegislation.
That is important because oncethere is EU legislation, this
then applies in all EU countries, and then there is also, of
course, the European Court ofJustice that can also rule on
the compliance of countries withthis regulation.
(18:50):
There are other ways in which wecan promote equality and
solidarity.
For example, age Platform Europehas been behind the launch of
the European Day of SolidarityBetween Generations.
We have launched the firstEuropean campaign against ageism
.
We have worked with differentagencies.
The EU, in terms of the rightsof older persons, including,
(19:13):
really pushed the FundamentalRights Agency to draft a report
that is talking about ageism andthe need to adopt the
rights-based approach to aging.
And, thanks to our efforts and,of course, we're never alone in
this we work with others.
We now have also councilstatements, council conclusions,
and the council in the EU isreally the member states, the
governments, are talking aboutthe rights-based approach to
(19:35):
aging.
So these are all collaborativeefforts that are really
important for a network to beable to work together and to
bring to the fore the realitiesof the different, the diverse
situation situation in thecountries, the diverse situation
in the subgroups of olderpeople.
And then we work also withthose other organizations that I
mentioned, betweenorganizations that represent
LGBTI, people with disabilities,women and so on, so that we can
(19:57):
also work at our best aroundthe intersections.
So yeah, without having, let'ssay, even the physical seat in
Brussels to be able to accessthose policymaking, those
decision-making, those lawmakingprocedures, it would be very
difficult to get the experiencesand the voice of older people
heard in those debates and thosedecisions.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Absolutely, and when you describe and it's quite
vivid the landscape of work andthe kind of collaboration and
coalescing that's necessary toget the work done.
In the midst of all of that,there is this long process of
considering the need for, andthe efficacy of, a UN Convention
(20:38):
on the Rights of Older Persons.
How is it that it's taken thislong just to consider whether
there should be a convention?
And how does this coalition,this collaboration of national
level, regional levelorganizations, both in the
European Union, but I know yourexperience is international, so
the world over?
How do you get your voice heardin the halls of the UN where
(21:00):
this convention is beingconsidered, and why is that so
important?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
So perhaps take a step back in order to understand
what a regional organizationcan really do at international
level and why it is important.
So there are two ways, I think,to think about that.
First is that the EuropeanUnion is a group of states, so
we have 27 member states of theEU and it's also a powerful
group of member states.
(21:24):
So we know from history that nohuman rights instrument has
ever been adopted without thesupport of European states.
European states also haveprided themselves in terms of
being pioneers in advancinghuman rights.
Many of them have also indeedbeen pioneering in terms of
promoting previous human rightsconventions.
So it is a group of states thatyou know as advocates we want
(21:47):
to have on our side, whether weare discussing and promoting the
rights of the person or anyother human rights issue.
The other particularity when itcomes to the European Union
outside, you know being animportant actor at the UN level
is that since the Lisbon Treaty,the European Union is also able
to ratify conventions.
(22:07):
So the EU can become a party ofinternational conventions, just
like any other government can,and it has indeed ratified the
Convention on the Rights ofPersons with Disabilities.
So this means that, to thisdate, the EU is a party to the
CRPD, to the Convention on theRights of Persons with
Disabilities, to the Conventionon the Rights of Persons with
(22:28):
Disabilities, and we have plentyof reforms and legislative
proposals happening at the EUlevel in order for the EU to
comply with its obligationsunder this convention.
So this is an even moreimportant entry point for us, in
the sense that if we are evergoing to have a convention on
the rights of older persons,we're not only interested to its
national application, but we'realso interested in what can be
(22:49):
achieved should the conventionbe ratified and applied also at
EU level, so as a network whenit comes to discussing the
rights of older people and theadded value of the convention,
we are thinking also about thisissue.
So first, how can we mobilizestates in order that they can
support the convention in theirnational capacity in this you
know more regional groupcapacity but also what is the
(23:11):
added value of the Conventionthat it would bring, both at the
national but also in theregional perspective?
Because there are still issues,like I said, that are very much
decided also at the Europeanlevel, and the Convention could
help push the EU to do better incertain areas or just
mainstream the rights of olderpeople across all its policies.
You know they use adoptingpolicies and climate change or
(23:31):
artificial intelligence.
You know other issues andgender and disability are better
considered to the state asopposed to age.
So these are all issues thatyou know would really benefit
also from a new UN convention.
Now, when it comes to why orwhether we are being heard of,
it's obviously much morecomplicated than that.
I think that certainly there isa lot that has been achieved so
(23:54):
far, both by ourselves andother peer organizations.
When it comes to advocating infavor of convention, both
internationally and regionally,it's not very easy for me to
answer in terms of why has ittaken so long?
It's a political process.
It's not very easy for me toanswer in terms of why has it
taken so long.
It's a political process and Imean we are sometimes perhaps
forgetting the fact that theother conventions so if you look
(24:15):
at the Convention on the Rightsof the Child or the Convention
on the Elimination ofDiscrimination Against Women it
has taken also decades to getthere.
So we are certainly frustratedin the fact that you know we
have, since 2010, this workinggroup that has been discussing
ways to strengthen theprotection of the rights of
elderly people, and only thisyear it has formally proposed
the convention, among otheroptions, as the way forward.
(24:38):
But this is not so unusual whenit comes to how the let's say
the UN works.
So if we take a step back, Ithink we can see progress, even
if it seems little.
When I started working in thisfield and when I started my PhD
in 2014, I literally had ahandful of academic articles and
policy reports to rely on.
(24:58):
Now I get these Google alertsevery day in terms of articles
being drafted discussing therights of older people.
So the framing is there.
The tool is not there.
So the convention is there, butthe framing is here to stay.
We have also, since 2014, a UNindependent expert on the rights
of older persons, which is animportant mechanism in the UN
(25:20):
system, but also an importantmechanism in terms of building
expertise and having peoplearound them discussing.
We have had, the last years,students coming to work for us
and starting to work on therights of older people.
We couldn't have imaginedhaving emerging students doing
their bachelor degrees anddiscussing the rights of older
people at the state some yearsago.
(25:41):
Let's say, when it comes toinfluencing actors, it's
certainly about the states.
If we want to have a convention, we can get back to that if you
want, in terms of what we'redoing, whether we are achieving
that, but I think in terms ofthe change, there are a lot of
things that I think that we haveachieved.
Also, when I started, you knowbig organizations like Amnesty
International and Human RightsSports were not yet working on
(26:02):
this topic.
Yet now they have small butreally powerful teams of people
doing research and advocating infavor of conventions.
So when you see big andmainstream organizations, I
think that what is important tokeep in mind is that this is an
issue that is here to stay.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yes, excellent, and the process itself has given
rise to a concentration on thefield and the need to uplift it
and eventually, one hopes, havea UN convention.
Yeah, and I guess that's whereI'd like to end with you,
because it does sound, as youdescribe it, that there has been
some considerable progress inthe last decade.
As we move the conventioncoming to fruition, where do we
(26:39):
go from here?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yes.
Well, it's not an easy question.
I think there are differentways to approach it.
Some are more procedural andfor those of us that are really
active at the UN level, I thinkthat certainly we still need
perhaps more capacity and moreunderstanding about what
conventions are and what are not.
I see that, at least within theorganization that I represent,
(27:03):
although we have done a lot ofwork also internally in terms of
understanding human rights, thehuman rights framework, the
gaps.
You know all the contributions,the past almost 15 years at the
UN Open-ended Working Group.
It's always worth repeating itwhat is a convention?
How do we make it meaningful?
Why do we need it on top ofwhat exists already?
So this is important to do, notjust to make the case, but also
(27:27):
to build capacity for rightsholders, for self-advocacy
organizations, to do thegroundwork at the national level
, you know, at the grassrootslevel.
What we have seen in the caseof previous treaty negotiations
is that where change hashappened is really on the ground
, and I'm not saying that'sundermining important work that
organizations like Age andAmnesty and the Global Alliance
(27:51):
of the Rice-Folder People andother international networks are
doing and should keep doing atthe international level.
But I think that where changewill happen in terms of member
states, in terms of governmentsgetting on board with the
convention, is when they hearnational actors, when they hear
voters, when they hear nationalactors, when they hear voters,
when they hear citizensrequesting it.
This is where I think we reallyhave to put a lot of effort in
(28:14):
terms of building that movementand building that capacity and
gaining resources fororganizations and for
individuals to do that work verymuch also at the grassroots.
So, while there's definitely aneed to get better resources for
all of us working at theinternational level, there is a
transition phase for all of usnow that this group that has
been discussing the rights ofolder people for the past 15
(28:36):
years has been closed out andwe're looking into starting a
new process, hopefully in Geneva, where the human rights
expertise of the UN is based.
So there's still room forcapacity building there.
I think that you know we shouldnot neglect the really the
grassroots, the national context.
This is where we would put a lotof our efforts as an
(28:57):
organization, as a network oforganization, in terms of
building the capacity andsupporting those people that
they can really work withdecision makers, and then that
is important not only in termsof, like I said, just getting
the process started, but it'sparticularly important because
when we will start negotiating aconvention, we want to have
that network, that capacity onthe ground, so that what we are
(29:19):
negotiating at the internationallevel and there will not be
many people in an organizationable to participate directly in
those discussions, but they canbe informed by discussions
happening at the national level,happening at the regional level
, and then, you know, this canbe transmitted and transferred
into those negotiations thatwould happen.
So it is a crucial moment to dothat, so both to build the case,
(29:42):
to get support for a convention, but also for all of us to
start working and really knowingwhat this is about, so that
when we do negotiate, this isreally based on the lived
experiences, on the realities,on the gaps that older people
see on the ground.
Because, like I said in thebeginning, human rights is as
much as it is about the outcomes.
It's also very much about theprocess and the process needs to
(30:03):
be inclusive of older people onthe ground.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's the old outcry and adage of nothing about us
without us.
Yes, yes, Absolutely Well.
It's wonderful to hear so muchfrom you, Nana, and to be so
informed and to hear about theseconnections between the lived
realities of older persons andhow you're keeping all of it
connected.
It's really quite wonderful andinspiring to hear.
So thank you immensely for allof this wonderful knowledge that
(30:26):
you've shared today, but also,of course, for the work that you
and your organization continueto do.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Thank you, lana, thank you for this opportunity.
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in ourolder age?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:22):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions willshare with us why they care
about the rights of olderpersons and what they are doing
to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the Rights
of Older Persons into being,for you and for me, no matter
how old we are.
(00:43):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble HumanRights Day 2024 blog to find out
more that isA-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-Ecom and sign
the global petition for the UNConvention on the Rights of
(01:04):
Older Persons.
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us, enjoythis special initiative, and my
thanks to Margaret Young, thefounder of Age Noble for
(01:27):
bringing this opportunity to usto hear from these important
guests who promote the humanrights and the dignity of older
persons the world over.
Welcome back to Wisdom at Work.
I'm really delighted to have awonderful guest today, dr Nenna
Royancy, who is a trained lawyerspecialized in human rights and
social protection, who's beenworking since 2010 coordinating
(01:50):
the work on human rights anddiscrimination for Age Platform
Europe, which aims to voice andpromote the rights of older
people in the European Union andraise awareness on the issues
that concern them most.
Nena holds a PhD in law fromthe National University of
Ireland in Galway, where she isalso an adjunct lecturer, and
has participated in the draftingof the Council of Europe
(02:10):
Recommendation on Rights ofOlder Persons and has consulted
the UN Office of the HighCommissioner for Human Rights
and the International LabourOrganization, the ILO.
She's actively involved in thepolitical process around a new
UN Convention on the Rights ofOlder Persons, representing age
to the Council of Europe and theUN Working Group to strengthen
(02:30):
older people's rights, and hasserved as Deputy Chair of the
Global Alliance for the Rightsof Older Persons.
Nena is the author of severalreports, articles and co-author
of a book on law, aging andageism.
Nena, it is wonderful to haveyou here to talk to us today
about the UN Convention on theRights of Older Persons.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Hi, lana, delighted to be with you, thanks.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Thanks for joining us .
I wanted to start sort of on apersonal note.
Obviously you have anillustrious career and we have a
lot to talk about around humanrights and the human rights of
older persons, but I thoughtwe'd start with what has drawn
you to a career in promoting thehuman rights of older persons
and human rights in general.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, so it's not an easy question.
I guess that from a younger ageI was attracted to professions
that had to do, you know, withwider good, with sustainability,
you know with the human dignityand the shared values that we
have in society.
So initially I wanted to becomesomething like a marine
biologist.
But then I was introduced tothe world of human rights when I
(03:31):
had the opportunity as astudent to participate in the
model United Nations andEuropean Youth Forum, which are
like mock-up sessions of how theEuropean Parliament and the
United Nations work, and this iswhere I found out what
political decision-making is,and I was involved in the human
rights committees in thoseinstances and then I said, ok,
(03:53):
this sounds like interestingwork.
So that's what kind of sparkedthe interest in that.
But of course at that time Ididn't know what human rights in
practice meant, and even lessso what human rights in older
people meant.
But I was drawn to the agingsector from an early age because
I think, as many of us, becauseof the experience I had with my
(04:16):
own grandparents, in particularmy grandmother, who I found
that compared to my othergrandparents she was less mobile
and kind of bound at home, andalthough she has always been
very close to us.
I always wonder what, you knowhow her life could have been if
(04:37):
you know, the circumstancesaround her were different.
And so when I found out that you, you know, there were
organizations working in thefield of aging, I was really
it's a bit like attracted tothat, but of course, I never
actually pursued, you know, acareer in aging and human rights
, because that doesn't evenexist today, but it does still.
(04:58):
You know, something thatmotivates me is that, and and
the fact actually, because agingand human rights is an emerging
field is really, how do you doyou make it work like we're all
participating in this, uh, inthe development of this field,
and how you know the humanrights that we all have, what do
they mean in the context, youknow, of aging, uh, both
(05:19):
personal, individual aging, butalso you know the demographic
context, like you know, becausehuman rights are also very
dynamic, and how can they bealso, you know, fulfilled and
realized in this context?
So it's really about this ideaabout human rights in, you know,
being localized, being concretein the everyday context.
Like Eleanor Roosevelt used tosay, you know that human rights
(05:40):
are about what happens in smallplaces.
So this, you know this ideathat still drives me today.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Beautiful.
That makes complete sense to meand there are a lot of people
who work with people who areaging in place, people in
long-term care homes, olderpeople in our communities, our
families and do it from theperspective of service delivery.
And do it from the perspectiveof service delivery and we all
believe, I think and cansubscribe to since we're all
(06:08):
aging and we'll all end up thereone day that older people
should be treated with dignityand fairly and with care and
respect in our societies.
But there's a particular lens,a particular way of thinking
about older persons as havinghuman rights.
And when we talk about agingand programs and policies, I
wanted to ask you, nena, why isit important to think about this
(06:31):
and to do the work and theadvocacy around this through the
lens of human rights?
Why are they so important tothe discussion?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So I mean from the outset, I just want to say that
it's not either or, so it's notthat we either have human rights
or we have services.
On the contrary, I think it isvery much a dialogue, in the
sense that we have human rightsand this can really help us get
better services so that we canall age equally and live full
(07:00):
and fulfilled lives.
But why I think it's importantto really have also this lens of
human rights is because humanrights is something that we are
not given because you know wedeserve it, or as a compensation
about something that we havedone or have not done, but it
seems something that we havejust for the simple reason of
being human and in somethingthat cannot be taken away,
(07:23):
something that we should allhave 365 days of the year in all
places of the world.
Policies are not like that.
Policies are negotiable.
So sometimes there will be, youknow, priorities, certain types
of policies in certain types ofgroups.
Starting points of policies isoften because you know people
are vulnerable or have needs ordeserve attention, or you know
(07:44):
seeing people as welfarerecipients, as opposed to rights
, which are, like I said, notonly belong to everyone, because
we're all rights holders.
They are also based on legalobligations, so there are
obligations to deliver that, sothey're less negotiable.
It doesn't mean that it's easyto apply them, but the starting
point is different.
So, whereas in terms ofpolicies, we can be advancing in
(08:05):
one area and interested in that, but they're also interested as
(08:26):
much as in inputs, also outputs, so that we can see, you know,
what is the progress.
You know what are we actuallydoing?
Are we making you know, havingmore equal outcomes?
Are we having more inclusion?
You know, but also about theprocess, how is this happening?
Are all two people involved inthat decision making?
The other important thing isthat you know when, sometimes,
when we focus just on theservices and the people that we
(08:49):
serve, we often focus on theindividual deficits or the
weaknesses and not so much onthe societal barriers.
Yet what we often see inpractice that a lot of the
issues that we see in societytalking more from the experience
of older people, but it can beabout other groups as well has
to do with societal barriers.
It can be about the environment, it can be about, you know,
(09:11):
prejudice, it can be about, youknow, a reallocation of
resources, and these are thingsthat come into play when we have
a discussion about rights, butless so when it comes to or not,
let's say in a comprehensiveway when it comes to policies.
So these are all the thingsthat we can gain when we put,
you know, the frame of humanrights alongside the police.
(09:31):
But of course, human rights byitself, on its own, does not
mean anything.
It has to be materializedthrough policies that are
rights-based.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I like very much how you've explained it and, in
addition, I'm thinking about howimportant it is to characterize
the needs of older people ashuman rights, in the same way
that we've come to think aboutthe rights of children, the
rights of women, the rights ofLGBTQ plus communities, that we
don't think of it more assomething lovely and ethical to
(10:01):
do, but rather a group deservingof human rights.
And in that context, I wantedto ask you Europe already has
human rights standards andinstruments, so why is it that
NGOs, non-governmentalorganizations, are championing
change?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
First, to pick up on something that you just said,
referring to the fact that youknow, for other groups we might
be accepting more the rightslanguage and what the added
value of that is.
And I think this is exactlywhat we're looking at when it
comes to older people, and itrelates to the question that you
just asked.
When it comes to older people,the fact that we're not using
the human rights languageactually allows us to perhaps
(10:37):
undermine or neglect, overlooksome of the injustices of the
human rights violations, theinequalities, the abuses that we
see in practice.
So the very framing of rightsdoes give a little bit more
gravity alongside what I said interms of obligation, access to
remedy and claiming of rights,but even in terms of the
(10:58):
discourse, it does give moregravity to some issues.
So when we're talking aboutwomen's rights and violence
against women, these are thingsthat the society will have
accepted as human rightsviolations.
I don't think we're yet there.
When we're talking about youknow violence against older
people, when we're talking aboutdiscrimination faced against
older people, and we can talkabout the different you know
manifestations of that in awhile.
(11:19):
So that is one of the reasonswhy we in Europe are talking
about that, but it's certainlynot new.
And you are right.
We have a lot of human rightsstandards, both when it comes to
general human rights standardsthat apply to everyone in
society, but also when it comesto the rights of older people
more specifically.
So the Council of Europe wasthe first regional organization
(11:41):
that actually included aspecific provision in the
revised European social charterthat has to do with the rights
of the elderly, and a similarprovision has been later
included in the Charter ofFundamental Rights of the
European Union.
But the reality is different,and the reality of ageism is
something that is highlyprevalent in Europe and across
the world.
We know that one out of twopeople globally are ageist
(12:04):
against older people, but theproblem is, like I said, that at
the same time, ageism is verysocially accepted.
It's so socially accepted thatwe basically ignore it and do
nothing about it.
This has played out in adevastating way in the pandemic,
where, of course, also aroundEurope, we have seen high
numbers, very high numbers ofdeath amongst older people, some
(12:24):
of which could definitely havebeen avoided.
But these are not only, youknow, in the extreme cases of
the pandemic, where we seesituations of how age is being
used.
That leads to human rightsviolations.
So we have age limits in allareas of life that are widely
considered as normal, and thenwe also lack the tools to
challenge them.
So, for example, in the pandemic, where we saw that age was used
(12:45):
as a criterion to deny accessto health treatment, emergency
health treatment, differentparts of the world, first this
was considered as normal and itwas used in practice and second,
we didn't have any legalobligations that said that this
should not happen.
In practice, disability wasalso being used in the beginning
, but because there is aConvention on the Rights of
Persons with Disabilities,disability organizations and
(13:08):
activists and individuals withdisabilities were able to a
better extent.
Of course, the reality isalways difficult, but they were
able to some extent fightagainst the use of disability in
such decision making.
When it comes to age and as acriterion, this has not happened
and this is not only the case.
As I said, in the pandemic, wesee that age is being used as a
(13:28):
criterion, for example, in termsof accessing mobility
allowances, other type ofdisability benefits, mental
health care, education, in-worktraining, access to care and
anything in between.
You know research, the examplesare there.
In between, you know research,the examples are there.
It's not only that there is thisdiscrimination in practice, but
(13:49):
the laws, the courts, humanright parties sometimes reflect
the same biases that we as asociety have.
So we have court cases inEurope that accept mandatory
retirement ages as a generallyacceptable based on a general
experience.
This is what the court says,that you know there is a general
experience and not even basedon a general experience.
This is what the court says,that there is a general
experience, not even based onscientific evidence or
(14:11):
statistics, because this did notexist in practice that there is
a decline in the capacity to dowork and the fitness to work.
There is also court cases inEurope that say that a woman's
highest attainable standard ofsexual health is less important
over a certain age, so theyaccept a different type of
treatment or less compensation,etc.
So these are the realities thatwe try to fight at European
(14:34):
level.
This is the very raison d'etre,the reason why an organization
like Age Platform Europe wasestablished over 20 years ago.
But we also see that how ageplays out in the European
policies is also a kind of formof systemic ageism, in that the
European Union has adoptedstrategies to address
(14:54):
discrimination faced by othergroups at risk of discrimination
for covering issues of gender,of disability, of race and
ethnic origin, roma peoplebasically all the grounds that
are covered by the Europeantreaties, except for age
discrimination.
So that is why we, as civilsociety, come together in order
to see the change and to helpsee the change that we need.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And that actually leads neatly into something else
that I wanted to ask you.
I wonder if you can elaborate alittle bit more about Age
Platform Europe, but also whyit's so important to strategize
and to advocate as a network, asa coalition of non-governmental
organizations for the rights ofolder people.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
So Age Platform Europe is an umbrella
organization, so we have memberorganizations across European
countries.
It exists since 2001.
And the reason of its existenceis, you know, really to bring
the voice of older people inparticular in European policy
debates.
So I think there's more andmore recognition that, you know,
(15:54):
a lot of the decisions that aremade in Brussels, at European
level, also affect all of usalso working and living across
different parts of Europe.
So age is not unique in thesense that other groups have
similar organizationsrepresenting, you know, the
rights of different groups, beit women, be it LGBTI, be it
people with disabilities, be itthe Roma population.
(16:15):
So age is just anotherorganization that is focusing,
let's say, on older people atthe European level.
So the main way that age triesto do this is first to build
capacity of older persons asself-advocates.
So we have, within AGE PlatformEurope, organizations that are
both self-advocacy organizations, so that are run and managed,
(16:37):
directed by older personsthemselves, often on a volunteer
basis.
But also we have someorganizations that are either
more charities, serviceproviders or organizations that
work for and with older people.
But you know, this issue ofself-advocacy is something that
is key to the organization.
So we want to bring olderpeople themselves to speak about
(16:58):
their rights and to do thatalso both at the national level,
but also at the European andinternational level.
Another important part of thework is really connecting the
organizations together so thatthey can exchange experiences
and learn from each other, andto bring this diversity also
from the members, the olderpeople that they represent in
their countries and, of course,to make sure that everything
(17:20):
that we say and that werepresent in those discussions
that we participate at theEuropean, international level is
really based on the livedrealities of older people.
So there is this bottom-upapproach.
It's really important in theorganisation but there is also
some top-down approach, whichmeans that the role that the
organisation plays is reallytrying to help organisations
(17:42):
that represent older personsnavigate, let's say, the
European and internationalpolicy landscape.
So there's this capacitybuilding, this information
sharing from the top down aswell, so that then the
organization that we work with,the self-advocates, can use this
information.
They can also advocate forchange.
At a different level.
There are different let's say,perhaps, in terms of using some
(18:03):
examples of why this isimportant.
Let's say, perhaps, in terms ofusing some examples of why this
is important At the EU level.
We have legislation, forexample, covering age
discrimination alongside othergrounds in access to employment
in the field of employment, butthere is no legislation that
(18:27):
would prohibit discriminationage discrimination alongside
other forms of discriminationoutside the field of employment.
So it has been one of theorganizations behind the
proposal that has been done atthe EU level since 2008, aiming
to extend the scope of EUlegislation.
That is important because oncethere is EU legislation, this
then applies in all EU countries, and then there is also, of
course, the European Court ofJustice that can also rule on
the compliance of countries withthis regulation.
(18:50):
There are other ways in which wecan promote equality and
solidarity.
For example, age Platform Europehas been behind the launch of
the European Day of SolidarityBetween Generations.
We have launched the firstEuropean campaign against ageism
.
We have worked with differentagencies.
The EU, in terms of the rightsof older persons, including,
(19:13):
really pushed the FundamentalRights Agency to draft a report
that is talking about ageism andthe need to adopt the
rights-based approach to aging.
And, thanks to our efforts and,of course, we're never alone in
this we work with others.
We now have also councilstatements, council conclusions,
and the council in the EU isreally the member states, the
governments, are talking aboutthe rights-based approach to
(19:35):
aging.
So these are all collaborativeefforts that are really
important for a network to beable to work together and to
bring to the fore the realitiesof the different, the diverse
situation situation in thecountries, the diverse situation
in the subgroups of olderpeople.
And then we work also withthose other organizations that I
mentioned, betweenorganizations that represent
LGBTI, people with disabilities,women and so on, so that we can
(19:57):
also work at our best aroundthe intersections.
So yeah, without having, let'ssay, even the physical seat in
Brussels to be able to accessthose policymaking, those
decision-making, those lawmakingprocedures, it would be very
difficult to get the experiencesand the voice of older people
heard in those debates and thosedecisions.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Absolutely, and when you describe and it's quite
vivid the landscape of work andthe kind of collaboration and
coalescing that's necessary toget the work done.
In the midst of all of that,there is this long process of
considering the need for, andthe efficacy of, a UN Convention
(20:38):
on the Rights of Older Persons.
How is it that it's taken thislong just to consider whether
there should be a convention?
And how does this coalition,this collaboration of national
level, regional levelorganizations, both in the
European Union, but I know yourexperience is international, so
the world over?
How do you get your voice heardin the halls of the UN where
(21:00):
this convention is beingconsidered, and why is that so
important?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
So perhaps take a step back in order to understand
what a regional organizationcan really do at international
level and why it is important.
So there are two ways, I think,to think about that.
First is that the EuropeanUnion is a group of states, so
we have 27 member states of theEU and it's also a powerful
group of member states.
(21:24):
So we know from history that nohuman rights instrument has
ever been adopted without thesupport of European states.
European states also haveprided themselves in terms of
being pioneers in advancinghuman rights.
Many of them have also indeedbeen pioneering in terms of
promoting previous human rightsconventions.
So it is a group of states thatyou know as advocates we want
(21:47):
to have on our side, whether weare discussing and promoting the
rights of the person or anyother human rights issue.
The other particularity when itcomes to the European Union
outside, you know being animportant actor at the UN level
is that since the Lisbon Treaty,the European Union is also able
to ratify conventions.
(22:07):
So the EU can become a party ofinternational conventions, just
like any other government can,and it has indeed ratified the
Convention on the Rights ofPersons with Disabilities.
So this means that, to thisdate, the EU is a party to the
CRPD, to the Convention on theRights of Persons with
Disabilities, to the Conventionon the Rights of Persons with
(22:28):
Disabilities, and we have plentyof reforms and legislative
proposals happening at the EUlevel in order for the EU to
comply with its obligationsunder this convention.
So this is an even moreimportant entry point for us, in
the sense that if we are evergoing to have a convention on
the rights of older persons,we're not only interested to its
national application, but we'realso interested in what can be
(22:49):
achieved should the conventionbe ratified and applied also at
EU level, so as a network whenit comes to discussing the
rights of older people and theadded value of the convention,
we are thinking also about thisissue.
So first, how can we mobilizestates in order that they can
support the convention in theirnational capacity in this you
know more regional groupcapacity but also what is the
(23:11):
added value of the Conventionthat it would bring, both at the
national but also in theregional perspective?
Because there are still issues,like I said, that are very much
decided also at the Europeanlevel, and the Convention could
help push the EU to do better incertain areas or just
mainstream the rights of olderpeople across all its policies.
You know they use adoptingpolicies and climate change or
(23:31):
artificial intelligence.
You know other issues andgender and disability are better
considered to the state asopposed to age.
So these are all issues thatyou know would really benefit
also from a new UN convention.
Now, when it comes to why orwhether we are being heard of,
it's obviously much morecomplicated than that.
I think that certainly there isa lot that has been achieved so
(23:54):
far, both by ourselves andother peer organizations.
When it comes to advocating infavor of convention, both
internationally and regionally,it's not very easy for me to
answer in terms of why has ittaken so long?
It's a political process.
It's not very easy for me toanswer in terms of why has it
taken so long.
It's a political process and Imean we are sometimes perhaps
forgetting the fact that theother conventions so if you look
(24:15):
at the Convention on the Rightsof the Child or the Convention
on the Elimination ofDiscrimination Against Women it
has taken also decades to getthere.
So we are certainly frustratedin the fact that you know we
have, since 2010, this workinggroup that has been discussing
ways to strengthen theprotection of the rights of
elderly people, and only thisyear it has formally proposed
the convention, among otheroptions, as the way forward.
(24:38):
But this is not so unusual whenit comes to how the let's say
the UN works.
So if we take a step back, Ithink we can see progress, even
if it seems little.
When I started working in thisfield and when I started my PhD
in 2014, I literally had ahandful of academic articles and
policy reports to rely on.
(24:58):
Now I get these Google alertsevery day in terms of articles
being drafted discussing therights of older people.
So the framing is there.
The tool is not there.
So the convention is there, butthe framing is here to stay.
We have also, since 2014, a UNindependent expert on the rights
of older persons, which is animportant mechanism in the UN
(25:20):
system, but also an importantmechanism in terms of building
expertise and having peoplearound them discussing.
We have had, the last years,students coming to work for us
and starting to work on therights of older people.
We couldn't have imaginedhaving emerging students doing
their bachelor degrees anddiscussing the rights of older
people at the state some yearsago.
(25:41):
Let's say, when it comes toinfluencing actors, it's
certainly about the states.
If we want to have a convention, we can get back to that if you
want, in terms of what we'redoing, whether we are achieving
that, but I think in terms ofthe change, there are a lot of
things that I think that we haveachieved.
Also, when I started, you knowbig organizations like Amnesty
International and Human RightsSports were not yet working on
(26:02):
this topic.
Yet now they have small butreally powerful teams of people
doing research and advocating infavor of conventions.
So when you see big andmainstream organizations, I
think that what is important tokeep in mind is that this is an
issue that is here to stay.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yes, excellent, and the process itself has given
rise to a concentration on thefield and the need to uplift it
and eventually, one hopes, havea UN convention.
Yeah, and I guess that's whereI'd like to end with you,
because it does sound, as youdescribe it, that there has been
some considerable progress inthe last decade.
As we move the conventioncoming to fruition, where do we
(26:39):
go from here?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yes.
Well, it's not an easy question.
I think there are differentways to approach it.
Some are more procedural andfor those of us that are really
active at the UN level, I thinkthat certainly we still need
perhaps more capacity and moreunderstanding about what
conventions are and what are not.
I see that, at least within theorganization that I represent,
(27:03):
although we have done a lot ofwork also internally in terms of
understanding human rights, thehuman rights framework, the
gaps.
You know all the contributions,the past almost 15 years at the
UN Open-ended Working Group.
It's always worth repeating itwhat is a convention?
How do we make it meaningful?
Why do we need it on top ofwhat exists already?
So this is important to do, notjust to make the case, but also
(27:27):
to build capacity for rightsholders, for self-advocacy
organizations, to do thegroundwork at the national level
, you know, at the grassrootslevel.
What we have seen in the caseof previous treaty negotiations
is that where change hashappened is really on the ground
, and I'm not saying that'sundermining important work that
organizations like Age andAmnesty and the Global Alliance
(27:51):
of the Rice-Folder People andother international networks are
doing and should keep doing atthe international level.
But I think that where changewill happen in terms of member
states, in terms of governmentsgetting on board with the
convention, is when they hearnational actors, when they hear
voters, when they hear nationalactors, when they hear voters,
when they hear citizensrequesting it.
This is where I think we reallyhave to put a lot of effort in
(28:14):
terms of building that movementand building that capacity and
gaining resources fororganizations and for
individuals to do that work verymuch also at the grassroots.
So, while there's definitely aneed to get better resources for
all of us working at theinternational level, there is a
transition phase for all of usnow that this group that has
been discussing the rights ofolder people for the past 15
(28:36):
years has been closed out andwe're looking into starting a
new process, hopefully in Geneva, where the human rights
expertise of the UN is based.
So there's still room forcapacity building there.
I think that you know we shouldnot neglect the really the
grassroots, the national context.
This is where we would put a lotof our efforts as an
(28:57):
organization, as a network oforganization, in terms of
building the capacity andsupporting those people that
they can really work withdecision makers, and then that
is important not only in termsof, like I said, just getting
the process started, but it'sparticularly important because
when we will start negotiating aconvention, we want to have
that network, that capacity onthe ground, so that what we are
(29:19):
negotiating at the internationallevel and there will not be
many people in an organizationable to participate directly in
those discussions, but they canbe informed by discussions
happening at the national level,happening at the regional level
, and then, you know, this canbe transmitted and transferred
into those negotiations thatwould happen.
So it is a crucial moment to dothat, so both to build the case,
(29:42):
to get support for a convention, but also for all of us to
start working and really knowingwhat this is about, so that
when we do negotiate, this isreally based on the lived
experiences, on the realities,on the gaps that older people
see on the ground.
Because, like I said in thebeginning, human rights is as
much as it is about the outcomes.
It's also very much about theprocess and the process needs to
(30:03):
be inclusive of older people onthe ground.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's the old outcry and adage of nothing about us
without us.
Yes, yes, Absolutely Well.
It's wonderful to hear so muchfrom you, Nana, and to be so
informed and to hear about theseconnections between the lived
realities of older persons andhow you're keeping all of it
connected.
It's really quite wonderful andinspiring to hear.
So thank you immensely for allof this wonderful knowledge that
(30:26):
you've shared today, but also,of course, for the work that you
and your organization continueto do.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Thank you, lana, thank you for this opportunity.
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