What happens when we bring our whole hearts and selves to our activism? Hope Chigudu, a self-described "uncontainable feminist activist" encourages us not to leave our hearts at the gate of our organizations, to revel in radical imagination, bring love and healing to the work, share power, create orgranizations with a soul where we can work with purpose and joy, voice criticsm without fear, and flourish.
I assure you - Hope's wisdom, honesty and insight will inspire, delight and ignite!
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ilana (00:00):
I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis , your host of Wisdom at Work
older women, elder women andgrandmothers on the move, the
podcast that kicks oldstereotypes to the curb.
Come, meet these creative,outrageous, authentic,
adventurous, irreverent andpowerful disruptors and
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(00:20):
room to the courtroom, makingpowerful contributions in every
walk of life the living room tothe courtroom, making powerful
contributions in every walk oflife.
Hi everyone, welcome back toWisdom at Work.
I'm your host, ilanaLandsberg-Lewis, and today I
(00:40):
have the real pleasure, deeppleasure and honor to speak to
Hope Chigudu, and in her words.
Hope is an uncontainablefeminist activist with decades
of experience in feministmovement building, feminist
leadership development, and hashoned her considerable skills in
organizational development,health and well-being of
individuals and the collective,a holistic approach where people
are the focus and their needs,emotions and senses are
(01:02):
supported and enhanced.
As enunciated in her tremendousbook Strategies for Building
Organizations with a Soul, sheis also a coach, a facilitator
of transitions and humanpossibilities, as she puts it.
Her work is mostly based inAfrica, but it spans continents
and movements, focusing ondismantling oppressive
structures through strategicorganizing and creating futures
(01:25):
of love, justice and liberation.
Hope is the co-founder of theZimbabwe Women's Resource Center
and Network, served on theboard of many key organizations
in the non-profit and feministspace, from the Global Fund for
Women to Practical Action, and Ilove this paragraph in Hope's
bio.
It says lightened, where powerpulsates through us from above
(02:03):
below around, and runs through,transforming all that is within
and without leaving our belliesbursting with joy.
On a personal note, hope hasbeen one of the mentors or the
femtors in my life, alwayspresent in my thinking and
inquiry around feminism andinclusion, accountability and
(02:23):
deep relational thinking andways of being in community, from
political activism to ourorganizations.
Hope has had a profoundinfluence on my thinking and, I
hope, on the way I walk throughthe world, and I quote Hope
often talking about howself-care is a radical act of
feminist activism Something yousaid to me, hope, many years ago
(02:44):
and I have never forgotten it,and I do hope that someday I
will get to nirvana and be ableto practice it myself.
Welcome to the conversation,hope.
It's just so wonderful to haveyou here.
Hope (02:58):
Thanks very much, Ilana.
Thank you.
ilana (03:00):
There's so much to talk about and I can't do your life's
work justice in the bio, so Ihope the conversation will take
us more deeply into it.
But as I was reading it I wasthinking about the power of the
language that you use, andthings are so fraught.
There's so much instability,outrage, fear, anxiety,
(03:21):
certainly in feminist organizingand in the ongoing struggle to
dismantle oppressive structures.
At the same time that you talkabout that in your bio and in
life, you use such powerfulwords that are life-affirming.
I want to hear more about thatbecause I think in these times,
perhaps in particular, it's sucha powerful counterpoint or such
(03:41):
a powerful place to go topowerful counterpoint or such a
powerful place to go to.
Hope (03:44):
Thanks very much.
When most of us started workingin the area of women's rights,
it was always the 'other woman'.
It was never, you know, aboutus - and it was like you just
come, and work and work yourheart.
Yeah, your heart might come inand support you, but in actual
(04:08):
fact you're expected to abandonit at the gate, leave it there,
you know, and go and work.
On the way, hope that you findit still beating and pick it up
and go home.
ilana (04:22):
Right.
Hope (04:23):
Yeah, but then I think some of us started questioning
that.
I mean, what kind of work canyou do without your heart?
What kind of work can you doand hope that you find your
heart still throbbing at thegate, because I think if you
leave it at the gate for manyyears, sooner or later it stops
throbbing.
So for me, fighting to makesure that when we go to work, or
(04:48):
when we meet as collectives,when we meet in spaces, we carry
our hurts (and not just carrythem) to make sure that we are
creating loving organizationsthat hold us to do the kind of
work that we do.
We need love, we need to put itat the center, because if we
don't have it we just becometechnical and as technical
(05:25):
people we are not.
Clarity in terms of the dancebetween us, among ourselves, the
collective and collectiveaccountability, you know, became
very important for me and stillis very important for me.
Let me add this Irana, you knowwe are women activists, men of
us, we are human rightsactivists.
(05:45):
We are gender non-conformingpeople activists, but we carry
many backgrounds of trauma andoppression, and care and healing
should be at the heart of ourfeminist practice.
But I think the challenge, youknow, is always that of
balancing, you know, self andcollective care and making sure
(06:07):
that we continue to createspaciousness, you know, to
wherever we are, you knowspaciousness for one another.
And you know again, thisdoesn't happen very easily if we
don't carry joy, if we don'tcreate loving spaces for us to
operate create loving spaces forus to operate.
ilana (06:26):
I love that and I think about that a lot because of
listening to you and learningfrom you Hope, and it's
interesting because in thisconversation we've started sort
of with the self and theindividual.
But, what I have found sochallenging and important to
think about is what you workedon organizations with a soul.
What does it mean to have anorganization with a soul?
Hope (06:46):
Creating an organization with a soul.
It is creating an organizationthat's not fragmented, and I
think that's why we are notcreating its work, because you
know we have to define what asoul is for ourselves, whatever
it is that we are doing.
You know what does it mean tobe in an organization with a
soul?
It's very hard because if weare feminists, then we need to
(07:23):
misuse of power happen and toensure that potential problems
are out in the open before theyreally become.
You know, very difficult Tocreate spaces of courage where
we can speak up and know that wewill not be castigated for
speaking up, to even find timewithin our work, that we create
(07:44):
spaces of conversation, to havethe tools that you know can
enable us to handle, you know,criticisms, to be conscious of
the way in which we use power,regardless of our positions in
organization, to have theability to hold different
perspectives and then to remaina thinking organization.
You can see that is a lot ofwork.
(08:05):
I could go on and on, but atthe end of the day, it's
ensuring that our inner garden,the organization, is so strong
and we are strong ourselves sothat we can deliver on the outer
, because the focus has been todeliver on the outer when the
inner garden is weak.
Focus has been to deliver onthe outer when the inner garden
(08:27):
is weak.
So that's so strengthening thatinner garden so that it's
strong enough as to deliver onthe outer.
And you know that, as I've said, to remain a thinking
organization, because if youstop being a thinking
organization, then that too canstart fragmenting the soul of
the organization.
I wonder how many of us spendtime building relationships,
(08:51):
setting aside time, getting toknow one another, getting to
know what triggers what doesn't,getting to know our backgrounds
, getting to know what motivatesus, getting to know what
grounds us, getting to know whatgrounds us, what roots us,
getting to know what ungroundsus, getting to know the fire
(09:14):
extinguishers and the fireigniters?
How many of us really take timeto do that?
Because even when we do ourstrategic plans, we don't start
from there.
As you said, we don't startwith ourself.
It's always the other person.
But sit and say okay, we aregoing to engage in this
strategic thinking planning, butlet's start with ourselves,
(09:37):
because, as I said earlier on,we first strengthen the inner
garden.
I think if we started from thereas people who do the work, as
people who are wounded as well,because it's not like we come
into these spaces and wounded.
There would be an actual pointthat would now enable us to get
into discussing power and powerdynamics, because, again, in
(09:58):
feminist circles, the tendencyis to pretend that you know
these things of power.
They are not for us, they arefor Trump.
But in actual fact, you know,it's perhaps easier to confront
Trump, but very deep out youknow, when it comes to a deeper
understanding, the dynamicsamongst ourselves.
(10:19):
So it's not like we can solveevery difficult, unspoken,
uncomfortable moment that weexperience as we do the work,
but we need a sharedunderstanding around how to
speak to each other with bothcare and courage, knowing that
in our main identities andbackground, power is not simple.
(10:42):
It's not a simple binary,because in some contexts I have
power, in others probably Idon't.
So there are multiple forms ofpower and positionality and
agency, as well as of privilegeand disprivilege, and these deep
structures are often, you knowwhat I call the undiscussables,
(11:03):
the unspeakables.
Yeah, that we sit on, but youknow what I call the
undiscussables, the unspeakables.
Yeah, that we sit on, but youknow, having said all that, for
me the most important thing isthat you need to really
understand just what grounds andungrounds you.
What is it that could kill youractivist fire and how can the
organization support you?
(11:24):
How do we strengthen you knowthe way we work together, and
how do we do so without hurtingor causing harm?
How can we disagree withoutattacking one another?
How do we prevent hurt from youknow being the order of the day
?
How do we do all these things?
(11:45):
How do we hold multiple truths,perspectives and perceptions
and experiences with grace,generosity, as well as the
ability to share our heart ordisagreements?
These are some of the thingsthat enter that port of
organizations with us and whichport we really avoid.
(12:07):
We would rather break it ratherthan investigate the contents.
ilana (12:12):
You know, hope, whenever I hear you speak or whenever I'm
speaking with you, I alwayswish that I've known you so much
longer than I have.
I always think I wish I'd knownyou when I was younger in life,
so that I had a lifetime ofthese conversations.
And it makes me think what wasit that brought you to this
place, of these deepobservations?
(12:33):
I mean, I know it's through alifetime of work, but also just
in who you are, even when you'redoing the hardest work or
speaking about the hardestthings, as I've seen you do you
also bring a lightness of beinga joy, an ability to laugh and
inspire others, even in themidst of really hard work.
Hope (12:52):
This is an interesting question because I remember
telling you, you know, inToronto that when.
I think, about organizationswith a soul.
It's the one you read, stephenLewis Foundation, and I told you
that I wasn't sure about thenitty gritty because I wasn't
there on a day-to-day basis, butjust you know, thinking about
my own experience and theexperience of all the visitors
(13:14):
that entered the gates of yourorganization, that was it.
So I could turn around thisquestion and ask you how you did
it, but let me try to answeryour question and thanks, thank
you.
First, I started working ingovernment.
I was working in the governmentof Zimbabwe for the Minister of
Women and really, in government, you are there.
(13:37):
You can sometimes, you know youdisappear for two days and no
one would know you disappeared,depending on what they were
doing.
It's only when they werelooking for you that they would
know you are not there and youdid work and you are not seen
because the hierarchy was very,very clear.
It doesn't matter what you did,but you are not seen.
I remember the person I wasreporting to, calling me,
(13:59):
closing the door and saying lookhere, people think you are the
boss here.
Turn down, turn down.
And I thought, my God, you knowhow do I change myself now?
I thought I was behavingnormally.
But he said no, you have turneddown people.
You know I don't like it whenpeople think you are my boss.
(14:19):
He was my boss and then I keptthinking is this the way it
should be?
Then I left and did some workwith the UN and I remember the
person who was known as thebackstopping officer saying to
me he said you know, hope, thething is that when you write
reports, the language you areusing, who uses such a language?
And I saw myself being pushedto working towards a soulless
(14:43):
organization and soulless words.
She really, really resented mywords and I think I stayed for
two years or so.
I couldn't survive.
I left.
We created an organization, theone you you know.
You talked about the ZimbaWomen's Resource Center, and the
demands from the funders wereso many, but one of those was
(15:04):
sustaining the organization.
You know those questions ofsustainability of the
organization, sustainability offunding, sustainability of this
and that, and yet we wereworking day and night.
We were really working hard.
There was nothing aboutsustainability of our bodies and
that, for me, was a wake-upcall.
(15:25):
So we are here talking aboutsustaining this organization.
We are here talking aboutensuring that the money is
available, but there is nothingabout sustaining the bodies that
are engaging here.
And I remember, you know, therewas a rigorous debate and
critical reflection about youknow what I meant by that when I
(15:46):
was talking aboutsustainability.
And then I joined the board ofAgent Action Fund and again I
started talking aboutsustainability of activists.
I am not so sure if I quiteunderstood it the way I do now,
but I was talking about it andagain, you know, I was asked
what I meant.
But from there, you know,things started changing and
(16:09):
people started recognizing andrespecting that.
You know we are the people whodo the work and it's very
important to preserve our energy, our dignity, our wellness.
And then I kept deepening myunderstanding of that.
But as time has gone on, Irealized that joy, working with
joy, is very important becausewhen you are not happy,
(16:31):
definitely you can't besustainable.
I also realized that creatingloving organizations although I
was hesitant to use that wordeither way prefer that love word
, but that's what we work for Atthe end of the day, that's what
we work for.
So, naming it and saying thatlove, joy, you know these are
feminist concepts and we shouldnot run away from them.
(16:52):
I started, you know, pushingthat because you wake up in the
morning and you go to work.
If you are not really workingin a loving organization, what
is it?
So I started seeing love assomething that generates energy,
even in our homes.
You know, in the work that wedo on a day-to-day basis.
When there is love, imagine theway, you know, you wake up,
(17:15):
smiling and singing and you arerushing to go and do what you
are going to do.
Where there isn't, then thereis stagnation of energy.
The fire gets extinguished.
So I kept exploring, thinkingabout these things, because I
was really thinking about myselfthings, because I was really
thinking about myself and thekind of spaces where I wanted to
work and where I wanted to be,and then, of course, you know,
(17:36):
sharing with other people.
So of late I've thought very,very much about how love
generates energy and how thatenergy should be at the center
of our work, but also how thatis what we work for, because how
do we talk about human rights,how do we talk about liberation,
how do we talk aboutemancipation without love being
(17:57):
at the center?
I started thinking about thesethings because of the spaces
where I worked Very, veryindifferent.
The government was indifferent.
I have even no words for it.
And then, when we started ourNGOs, yes, we were flexible, we
were, you know, agile, we wereall those things, but still very
, very much scared to talk aboutlove, to talk about fire, to
(18:20):
talk about groundedness, to talkabout joy.
We were scared but tentatively,tentatively, started
introducing these words.
Some people are still scared ofthem, but I think some are
beginning to understand thatthese are feminist words that we
shouldn't surrender to thecorporate sector or to other
(18:41):
institutions.
And the work continues.
There is still a lot of work,you know, that we need to think
about.
There is still a lot of workthat we need to explore Because
of NFT's wellness.
What does it really mean?
You know, how far do we go withit as organizations?
ilana (18:57):
When you're trying to create spaces, organizations,
cultures where taking care ofourselves and caring about
ourselves and our wealth isactually part of the culture,
not something that'sindividualized, like you do it
outside of your work hours andthen in work you just deal with
whatever you're dealing with.
I was having a conversationwith a group of go-go's in South
(19:21):
Africa and I remember one ofthem.
It's quite life-changing for me.
One of them was saying to meyou know, people think that
because we're grandmothers, weare love, we embody love, we
give love.
And she said but peopleunderestimate us because they
don't understand that love isnot just this nice feeling that
we have and that we give.
It's actually what powers us.
(19:42):
It is the power, it's the forcefor resilience, for continuing
on.
Love is actually a power thatwe can tap into.
You shouldn't be ashamed ofusing the word love or talking
about it as a force.
I think it's much easier to saythan it is to do.
Hope (19:59):
Indeed, it can be easier to do.
I cannot forget arriving inToronto and being met with a
flask of coffee and jackets,warm jackets, knowing we are
coming from you know countriesthat usually don't experience
winter Phones, and then you know, like a first aid kit.
(20:23):
What organizations think likethat?
And to you, maybe you know youtook that for granted, but for
me, every time I give an exampleof a loving organization, I
talk about the Stephen LewisFoundation that you led at that
time and the simple things.
You know, easier things tostart with, we don't have to
(20:43):
really go into complications, asif the day-to-day reality
doesn't matter.
Anyone seeing us at the airportwould never have believed that
we were invited by anorganization.
It was like you're invited by,you know, an individual home,
even those.
You don't think about thosedetails.
So we are doing this work.
You've done it, maybe notconsciously, but for us to
(21:05):
observe, yes, you know, we knowthat you've done it.
But where it becomes verydifficult, Ilana, you know, this
work that we are talking aboutis the way how do I put it is
balancing self and collectivecare and promoting care without
diluting the work that we do,because, you know, I've seen
(21:27):
situations where people on theirown, you know they are on their
own personal liberationjourneys, but sometimes they
want to achieve the liberationat the expense of the collective
.
You know where you don't knowhow to create collective.
You know loving boundaries.
So, when we talk about love,what are those loving boundaries
(21:47):
that we can create?
And even there, what isindividual responsibility?
You are talking about creatingorganizations with a soul,
loving organizations.
Where does the organizationstart?
Where do individuals come in?
And for me, you know, these arethings I'm struggling with.
So how can we become better atthis work of shared
(22:10):
accountability when it comes toour well-being, when it comes to
creating a loving organization,when it comes to creating
organizations of joy?
That is a question that I'mgrappling with right now,
because I don't know where westart and end.
We normally assume good faith,but, again, you know, we need to
(22:32):
keep challenging each other anddisagreeing, if that must be,
but disagreeing without hurtingone another.
And then, of course, theconstituencies out there,
because we didn't createorganization for ourselves.
We created them, yes, for usand for our constituencies.
ilana (22:49):
The balancing and the thinking of that through.
I think that's what I meantearlier when I was talking about
vigilance.
There's a willingness to engagein really difficult
conversations.
So I wanted to ask you aboutsomething else.
You move and exude a joyfulness, hope.
When we were traveling inCanada together, I really felt
the profound connection betweensort of creativity and
(23:12):
storytelling and the work thatwe do and the gravitas, the
seriousness of it.
But I want to ask you about thecreative side of life.
How do you think about?
Hope (23:22):
it.
For me, the work of radicalimagination is very important,
and then when I think of thatradical imagination, it goes
into creativity.
I find that there is joy whenwe are being creative.
I find that when we try, andeven you know, imagine our
futures and put it in an artform, and art form takes many
(23:45):
forms.
I cannot, you know, I cannotcompose music, but can design
things.
For example, we werecelebrating my sister-in-law, my
brother's wife, who hadsupported many students.
Well, she's always workedwithin university settings and I
asked at least as many peopleas I could remember that she
(24:05):
supported to donate a piece ofcloth so that we make a skirt
for her.
We created this skirt withdifferent energies, because
that's another thing.
I believe we are energy.
I definitely know that we areenergy, and even in physics we
know energy travels.
So I was trying to create thisenergetic skirt for her to
recognize that this piece camefrom sun.
(24:27):
So we, inside the piece therewere names of people whom she
had supported, at least the onesI could reach.
So imagine you wear that skirtand then, inside the names of
people you have supported, theenergy that goes with that, the
love that goes with that, andthen, when you wear it you're on
fire.
(24:48):
So for me, creativity, you knowit produces pressure about
activism.
It makes us to do work in ajoyful manner, and I know people
do that differently.
But for me I want us to do workthat makes us feel good, smell
good, taste good and make surethat everyone feels that they
belong.
Somehow you build a movement.
(25:09):
Fun making is part of movementbuilding.
But that joy has to bereflected outside.
If you are doing well inside,outside, people will see.
And this doesn't mean that youshould go around, you know,
smiling unnecessarily andpretending you can be joyful 24
hours.
But one of the things I alwaysask myself when things are not
(25:29):
working well, I ask what is inmy tool that I can call upon now
?
And sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't, but
eventually you know something,something will pop up.
So creativity, radicalimagination, connecting these
are things that I find youcreate joy, create love, but
(25:49):
also an interest in people,looking at people.
So I look at people right fromhead to toe and start to really
looking at the way they are puttogether and the beauty of the
way they are put together.
You know, even when I'm at anairport and I've sat there for a
long time.
I can actually sit at anairport for many hours.
I'll be looking at the waypeople are put together.
(26:10):
So that work of imagination, Ithink, cannot be separated from
movement building, fromstrengthening movements.
But also Irana, that it takespositive energy to recognize
positive energy.
Yes, so if you recognizepositive energy in a person, it
means that you yourself, you arecarrying that energy and for me
(26:32):
, energy is important.
I could talk about energy,energy, energy forever.
Energy travels.
So when your soul is dancing,it will connect with my soul and
my soul will know a hinderedspirit and will dance.
You know as well.
ilana (26:49):
I love that so much.
There's something so powerfulabout that storytelling.
These days Hope I hear a lotabout storytelling.
I don't know if it's a renewedinterest connection back to the
importance of the stories wetell.
Who's telling the stories?
Who's listening to the stories?
What are we weaving as we tellthem?
And I know you think about thisand talk about this.
Hope (27:13):
Yeah, I don't know, because I think we are stories,
we are working stories andironically, even this
storytelling, you know, I think,was revived very much by the
corporate sector.
They found the importance of itand I see many management books
too, you know, in form ofstories.
(27:34):
But for me, you know from wherewe are.
If we are thinking aboutradical social change, then you
know we have to thinkexpansively and we have to
really dream, create room fordreaming, and then I don't know
that one can create that roomfor dreaming without telling
stories.
I don't know if one can runaway from what we see around.
(27:58):
You know cynicism, you knowdespair and not really get into
storytelling.
But as Hope I grew up in aculture of storytellers.
It was, I think, for many blackpeople in a way I really
imagine.
You know storytelling has beenwith us, has been part of us,
where you know every opportunitythat you get is a story.
(28:21):
Whether you are workingtogether in a garden, you know
as workers, women, young peopleand others, you are telling
stories.
You are going to fetch water,you are telling stories.
You are fetching firewood, youare telling stories.
Stories are part of us, theyare written on our bodies and
when we talk about decolonizingin our context, when we talk
(28:45):
about decolonizing ourapproaches, I think storytelling
is one of them, because youcan't build I don't know if you
can build a community withoutstories.
Whenever people gather, youknow they share stories.
Especially when they aresharing very difficult
information, they find a way ofsoftening it through a story.
(29:05):
When people want to talk aboutsomeone or to warn you, it's
about a story.
But even if one doesn't, youknow, go that far.
Our organizations are stories.
So we are reclaiming the powerof storytelling and, as I've
said, it seems, you know, thatstorytelling has spread beyond
us as women who work with otherwomen, gender non-conforming
(29:30):
people who work with others,whatever you know variety of
people, intergenerationalconnections.
You know stories are coming back.
You know people are beginningto look at different forms of
resistance and the tools that weare used or that have been used
.
They are beginning to thinkabout the different strategies,
(29:50):
the different stories and howthe stories went around.
I remember one of the storiesthat fascinated me during slave
trade was the one of weavinghair.
How messages were within thedifferent weaves, different
messages.
You know you look at this weave.
You know, oh, we are supposedto run.
You look at that wave, you saystay grounded, this and that,
(30:12):
and I thought, wow, how did welose that?
What happened, yeah, so I thinkwe have many stories, stories
of resistance, stories that arebeautiful stories, that are
joyful stories, that arecreative stories that you know
are effective in a number ofways, and we really need to
continue thinking aboutstorytelling as a very, very
(30:32):
interesting strategy in buildingresistance, in building
movements that serve our people,but also in supporting
ourselves.
ilana (30:41):
Is there a difference for you as you get older?
I wonder.
What lens does it give you?
What reflection does it sparkfor you?
Hope (30:49):
So what I find missing in all these things, when you talk
about old women and whoever elseis there, it's the conversation
on transitions.
I have never understood why wedon't talk about transitions,
why we don't prepare fortransitions, not just because of
age, but there are manytransitions that happen, even
transitioning from one job tothe other, or from transitioning
(31:13):
from a permanent job to workingfrom home.
So because we don't talk aboutthese transitions, there are
gaps.
Maybe if we talked about them,people would also go out and
really find old women whereverthey are, so and so transitioned
.
How is she doing what ishappening?
How can we tap into?
You know what they were doingand what they already know.
(31:34):
So I've been pushing fortransitions in spaces.
I love that some of the wordsthat I use these days I would
have been afraid to use them inthe past.
Even when I talk about love,when I talk about J within an
organizational context, I wasafraid to use those words
because I thought I'd be judged.
For me, it's courage.
(31:56):
I remember the first time Italked about organizations with
a soul, some of them walked out.
They were like I'm not comingto talk about souls, but now, if
they walked out, a great, theymight stay there by myself.
So the thing that stands out forme is courage and the power to
imagine, the power to explore,the power to use a song, if a
(32:18):
song is going to explain whatI'm talking about.
That is what growing old hasmeant for me.
That is what growing old hasmeant for me.
But I find myself talking aboutthings as the way I see them,
the way I want to see them, thethings that I miss talking about
.
I'm talking about that now.
The imagination I wanted when Iwas young and feared using it.
(32:40):
I'm doing that now.
So that's what growing old hasmeant for me.
ilana (32:46):
I love that you use the word courage, because sometimes
I think it's not just thatgetting older means that it gets
easier to do it.
Hope (32:57):
So it still takes courage to do it, to say what you think
and feel.
But I also find that remainingconnected with young people is
good for my soul, Because I'vegot a corner for many young
people.
Some are very exciting, Someare challenging, Some I
challenge them too because Ilook at them and think, wow, you
know you are young, but youractions don't show that.
(33:18):
Some come to me because theywant to just have a conversation
with a Kantaka soul woman.
I think we need thoseintergenerational connections,
conversations, and sometimeswhen I'm talking to them I even
forget that they are much, much,much, much younger than me,
because some of them they lookvery young in age but the souls
(33:39):
are very old and when you're incommon cause.
ilana (33:42):
Yes, such a deep connection.
Hope (33:44):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
But I think that part of theageism is a donor instrument,
because you know now, whereveryou go, you go to a meeting say,
oh, you know.
Do you want to share what istroubling you now?
Do you want to share what theissues are right now and they
talk about and things connectedwith age, even without thinking,
(34:06):
because that's what they havebeen told, you know, that's what
the funders want to hear.
So for sure, I mean, age is anissue we need to keep talking
because we come from differentgenerations.
But I also think that can beexaggerated and put in context
where it doesn't apply.
ilana (34:23):
I completely agree, you talk about and write about
outrage, a lot of people who aregalvanized and mobilizing, many
cataclysmic moments unfoldingand I just wanted to hear what
you're thinking and even perhaps, how you're engaging with
others around these things.
Hope (34:39):
You know, one of the things that I've been thinking
about very much is the power ofthe ecosystem, that over the
years we separated ourselvesfrom nature.
In these troubled times, I'vefound much, much comfort in
going back to nature, thinkingabout biodiversity, you know,
and how things connect, becausethe way we are now, if we don't
(35:03):
enhance our relationships again,going to our area of
conversation in terms of age, interms of sexuality, in terms of
you know where we are placed inlife If we don't strengthen
that, we are finished.
I also find that what we aregoing through calls for, you
know, small, small things.
(35:24):
You know it might not be a hugemovement, but groups that meet
every now and again.
The other day I was sittinghere.
I was so troubled and I wasthinking I need someone to talk
to Creating those islands ofsupport and knowing that, you
know, when things are tough,there are these islands of
support.
Of course, I mean I'm lookingat that at the micro level, but
(35:47):
I think that's where we startfrom.
Then we can broaden it.
I started learning about thoseislands of support when things
were tough in Zimbabwe and theycontinue to be tough.
I learned that there must becorners where I'll sit and even
forget what is happening in thecontext and concentrate on me so
(36:08):
that, as I've said, the innergarden is strong as to face the
outer.
And the other thing that Ithink about very much is what
we've talked about integratingpressure and well-being into the
work that we do, but also joyand healing as essential
elements of the work that we do.
So just seeing pleasure as anatural part and vital part of
(36:33):
my life, of our lives, andtrying to create safe and
supportive spaces for joy, so Icannot imagine that we can
manage this world without someform of healing, you know, of
some sort, because if we don'theal, you know, more and more
bitterness sits on our bodies.
Fear, fear, this word calledfear.
(36:53):
I don't know how many peopleI've talked to of late and they
said to me I'm so scared, I'm soscared Even when they are not
looking at the big picture, butfrom where they are.
I'm talking a lot about fearand how we can really, in an
honest way, see how weexperience it and the strategies
we can use to minimize it, but,more than anything else, the
(37:15):
power of connection, connecting,connecting globally.
You know, you hear thisstatement, trump comes up with
this statement and you sit withit all day long.
But when you connect, whetherit is on zoom, whether it is,
you know, face to face, you goaway with some kind of hope
about the future and you canreally get honest and look at,
(37:38):
you know the world and share,and you know see where you can
borrow from other.
Post strategiesstrategies Arewe building communities from
where we are?
Are we being supportive?
Are we connecting with nature?
Where are we headed if we arenot talking?
I see new groups of youngactivists emerging.
(38:00):
They are so fearless.
You know, ilana, think aboutthe LGBTIQ movement in Uganda.
Those people, I can't get overthem.
There is a lot of courage, andthen that goes for the
environmental movement as well.
I mean, you see young peoplewho are very, very brave, who
are speaking out.
So for me, I see there is hopefor the future.
(38:21):
Yeah, there is hope for thefuture.
Sometimes we think that, oh,what is going to happen when we
are no longer here?
There are so many people whoare doing great things and they
work along, you know, with thiswork.
ilana (38:32):
And I take a lot of hope too from that , especially
around climate justice andactivism.
I see so much intergenerationalwork happening, so many older
women in particular.
Hope (38:43):
You know there is fire.
There is fire here and thereyou find those pockets of fire.
You know much as there is somuch fear, there is fearlessness
as well.
ilana (38:51):
This is a perfect note to end on.
I want to end with fearlessness.
You always give me and give usso much to think about, hope and
provoke us to go deeper, and Ithank you from the bottom of my
heart for this conversation.
Hope (39:07):
No, but you are very provocative too.
I'm very happy to connect withyou.
ilana (39:11):
Thank you, Hope, I feel the same way.
Hope (39:14):
Thanks very much.
ilana (39:15):
Bye.
Thanks for listening.
I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, yourhost of Wisdom at Work older
women, elder women andgrandmothers on the move.
To find out more about me orthe podcast, you can go to
wisdomatworkpodcastcom, formerlygrandmothers on the move, and
you can find the podcast at allyour favorite places to listen
to them.
Tune in next week.
(39:35):
Thanks and bye-bye for now.
I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis , your host of Wisdom at Work
older women, elder women andgrandmothers on the move, the
podcast that kicks oldstereotypes to the curb.
Come, meet these creative,outrageous, authentic,
adventurous, irreverent andpowerful disruptors and
influencers older women andgrandmothers, from the living
(00:20):
room to the courtroom, makingpowerful contributions in every
walk of life the living room tothe courtroom, making powerful
contributions in every walk oflife.
Hi everyone, welcome back toWisdom at Work.
I'm your host, ilanaLandsberg-Lewis, and today I
(00:40):
have the real pleasure, deeppleasure and honor to speak to
Hope Chigudu, and in her words.
Hope is an uncontainablefeminist activist with decades
of experience in feministmovement building, feminist
leadership development, and hashoned her considerable skills in
organizational development,health and well-being of
individuals and the collective,a holistic approach where people
are the focus and their needs,emotions and senses are
(01:02):
supported and enhanced.
As enunciated in her tremendousbook Strategies for Building
Organizations with a Soul, sheis also a coach, a facilitator
of transitions and humanpossibilities, as she puts it.
Her work is mostly based inAfrica, but it spans continents
and movements, focusing ondismantling oppressive
structures through strategicorganizing and creating futures
(01:25):
of love, justice and liberation.
Hope is the co-founder of theZimbabwe Women's Resource Center
and Network, served on theboard of many key organizations
in the non-profit and feministspace, from the Global Fund for
Women to Practical Action, and Ilove this paragraph in Hope's
bio.
It says lightened, where powerpulsates through us from above
(02:03):
below around, and runs through,transforming all that is within
and without leaving our belliesbursting with joy.
On a personal note, hope hasbeen one of the mentors or the
femtors in my life, alwayspresent in my thinking and
inquiry around feminism andinclusion, accountability and
(02:23):
deep relational thinking andways of being in community, from
political activism to ourorganizations.
Hope has had a profoundinfluence on my thinking and, I
hope, on the way I walk throughthe world, and I quote Hope
often talking about howself-care is a radical act of
feminist activism Something yousaid to me, hope, many years ago
(02:44):
and I have never forgotten it,and I do hope that someday I
will get to nirvana and be ableto practice it myself.
Welcome to the conversation,hope.
It's just so wonderful to haveyou here.
Hope (02:58):
Thanks very much, Ilana.
Thank you.
ilana (03:00):
There's so much to talk about and I can't do your life's
work justice in the bio, so Ihope the conversation will take
us more deeply into it.
But as I was reading it I wasthinking about the power of the
language that you use, andthings are so fraught.
There's so much instability,outrage, fear, anxiety,
(03:21):
certainly in feminist organizingand in the ongoing struggle to
dismantle oppressive structures.
At the same time that you talkabout that in your bio and in
life, you use such powerfulwords that are life-affirming.
I want to hear more about thatbecause I think in these times,
perhaps in particular, it's sucha powerful counterpoint or such
(03:41):
a powerful place to go topowerful counterpoint or such a
powerful place to go to.
Hope (03:44):
Thanks very much.
When most of us started workingin the area of women's rights,
it was always the 'other woman'.
It was never, you know, aboutus - and it was like you just
come, and work and work yourheart.
Yeah, your heart might come inand support you, but in actual
(04:08):
fact you're expected to abandonit at the gate, leave it there,
you know, and go and work.
On the way, hope that you findit still beating and pick it up
and go home.
ilana (04:22):
Right.
Hope (04:23):
Yeah, but then I think some of us started questioning
that.
I mean, what kind of work canyou do without your heart?
What kind of work can you doand hope that you find your
heart still throbbing at thegate, because I think if you
leave it at the gate for manyyears, sooner or later it stops
throbbing.
So for me, fighting to makesure that when we go to work, or
(04:48):
when we meet as collectives,when we meet in spaces, we carry
our hurts (and not just carrythem) to make sure that we are
creating loving organizationsthat hold us to do the kind of
work that we do.
We need love, we need to put itat the center, because if we
don't have it we just becometechnical and as technical
(05:25):
people we are not.
Clarity in terms of the dancebetween us, among ourselves, the
collective and collectiveaccountability, you know, became
very important for me and stillis very important for me.
Let me add this Irana, you knowwe are women activists, men of
us, we are human rightsactivists.
(05:45):
We are gender non-conformingpeople activists, but we carry
many backgrounds of trauma andoppression, and care and healing
should be at the heart of ourfeminist practice.
But I think the challenge, youknow, is always that of
balancing, you know, self andcollective care and making sure
(06:07):
that we continue to createspaciousness, you know, to
wherever we are, you knowspaciousness for one another.
And you know again, thisdoesn't happen very easily if we
don't carry joy, if we don'tcreate loving spaces for us to
operate create loving spaces forus to operate.
ilana (06:26):
I love that and I think about that a lot because of
listening to you and learningfrom you Hope, and it's
interesting because in thisconversation we've started sort
of with the self and theindividual.
But, what I have found sochallenging and important to
think about is what you workedon organizations with a soul.
What does it mean to have anorganization with a soul?
Hope (06:46):
Creating an organization with a soul.
It is creating an organizationthat's not fragmented, and I
think that's why we are notcreating its work, because you
know we have to define what asoul is for ourselves, whatever
it is that we are doing.
You know what does it mean tobe in an organization with a
soul?
It's very hard because if weare feminists, then we need to
(07:23):
misuse of power happen and toensure that potential problems
are out in the open before theyreally become.
You know, very difficult Tocreate spaces of courage where
we can speak up and know that wewill not be castigated for
speaking up, to even find timewithin our work, that we create
(07:44):
spaces of conversation, to havethe tools that you know can
enable us to handle, you know,criticisms, to be conscious of
the way in which we use power,regardless of our positions in
organization, to have theability to hold different
perspectives and then to remaina thinking organization.
You can see that is a lot ofwork.
(08:05):
I could go on and on, but atthe end of the day, it's
ensuring that our inner garden,the organization, is so strong
and we are strong ourselves sothat we can deliver on the outer
, because the focus has been todeliver on the outer when the
inner garden is weak.
Focus has been to deliver onthe outer when the inner garden
(08:27):
is weak.
So that's so strengthening thatinner garden so that it's
strong enough as to deliver onthe outer.
And you know that, as I've said, to remain a thinking
organization, because if youstop being a thinking
organization, then that too canstart fragmenting the soul of
the organization.
I wonder how many of us spendtime building relationships,
(08:51):
setting aside time, getting toknow one another, getting to
know what triggers what doesn't,getting to know our backgrounds
, getting to know what motivatesus, getting to know what
grounds us, getting to know whatgrounds us, what roots us,
getting to know what ungroundsus, getting to know the fire
(09:14):
extinguishers and the fireigniters?
How many of us really take timeto do that?
Because even when we do ourstrategic plans, we don't start
from there.
As you said, we don't startwith ourself.
It's always the other person.
But sit and say okay, we aregoing to engage in this
strategic thinking planning, butlet's start with ourselves,
(09:37):
because, as I said earlier on,we first strengthen the inner
garden.
I think if we started from thereas people who do the work, as
people who are wounded as well,because it's not like we come
into these spaces and wounded.
There would be an actual pointthat would now enable us to get
into discussing power and powerdynamics, because, again, in
(09:58):
feminist circles, the tendencyis to pretend that you know
these things of power.
They are not for us, they arefor Trump.
But in actual fact, you know,it's perhaps easier to confront
Trump, but very deep out youknow, when it comes to a deeper
understanding, the dynamicsamongst ourselves.
(10:19):
So it's not like we can solveevery difficult, unspoken,
uncomfortable moment that weexperience as we do the work,
but we need a sharedunderstanding around how to
speak to each other with bothcare and courage, knowing that
in our main identities andbackground, power is not simple.
(10:42):
It's not a simple binary,because in some contexts I have
power, in others probably Idon't.
So there are multiple forms ofpower and positionality and
agency, as well as of privilegeand disprivilege, and these deep
structures are often, you knowwhat I call the undiscussables,
(11:03):
the unspeakables.
Yeah, that we sit on, but youknow what I call the
undiscussables, the unspeakables.
Yeah, that we sit on, but youknow, having said all that, for
me the most important thing isthat you need to really
understand just what grounds andungrounds you.
What is it that could kill youractivist fire and how can the
organization support you?
(11:24):
How do we strengthen you knowthe way we work together, and
how do we do so without hurtingor causing harm?
How can we disagree withoutattacking one another?
How do we prevent hurt from youknow being the order of the day
?
How do we do all these things?
(11:45):
How do we hold multiple truths,perspectives and perceptions
and experiences with grace,generosity, as well as the
ability to share our heart ordisagreements?
These are some of the thingsthat enter that port of
organizations with us and whichport we really avoid.
(12:07):
We would rather break it ratherthan investigate the contents.
ilana (12:12):
You know, hope, whenever I hear you speak or whenever I'm
speaking with you, I alwayswish that I've known you so much
longer than I have.
I always think I wish I'd knownyou when I was younger in life,
so that I had a lifetime ofthese conversations.
And it makes me think what wasit that brought you to this
place, of these deepobservations?
(12:33):
I mean, I know it's through alifetime of work, but also just
in who you are, even when you'redoing the hardest work or
speaking about the hardestthings, as I've seen you do you
also bring a lightness of beinga joy, an ability to laugh and
inspire others, even in themidst of really hard work.
Hope (12:52):
This is an interesting question because I remember
telling you, you know, inToronto that when.
I think, about organizationswith a soul.
It's the one you read, stephenLewis Foundation, and I told you
that I wasn't sure about thenitty gritty because I wasn't
there on a day-to-day basis, butjust you know, thinking about
my own experience and theexperience of all the visitors
(13:14):
that entered the gates of yourorganization, that was it.
So I could turn around thisquestion and ask you how you did
it, but let me try to answeryour question and thanks, thank
you.
First, I started working ingovernment.
I was working in the governmentof Zimbabwe for the Minister of
Women and really, in government, you are there.
(13:37):
You can sometimes, you know youdisappear for two days and no
one would know you disappeared,depending on what they were
doing.
It's only when they werelooking for you that they would
know you are not there and youdid work and you are not seen
because the hierarchy was very,very clear.
It doesn't matter what you did,but you are not seen.
I remember the person I wasreporting to, calling me,
(13:59):
closing the door and saying lookhere, people think you are the
boss here.
Turn down, turn down.
And I thought, my God, you knowhow do I change myself now?
I thought I was behavingnormally.
But he said no, you have turneddown people.
You know I don't like it whenpeople think you are my boss.
(14:19):
He was my boss and then I keptthinking is this the way it
should be?
Then I left and did some workwith the UN and I remember the
person who was known as thebackstopping officer saying to
me he said you know, hope, thething is that when you write
reports, the language you areusing, who uses such a language?
And I saw myself being pushedto working towards a soulless
(14:43):
organization and soulless words.
She really, really resented mywords and I think I stayed for
two years or so.
I couldn't survive.
I left.
We created an organization, theone you you know.
You talked about the ZimbaWomen's Resource Center, and the
demands from the funders wereso many, but one of those was
(15:04):
sustaining the organization.
You know those questions ofsustainability of the
organization, sustainability offunding, sustainability of this
and that, and yet we wereworking day and night.
We were really working hard.
There was nothing aboutsustainability of our bodies and
that, for me, was a wake-upcall.
(15:25):
So we are here talking aboutsustaining this organization.
We are here talking aboutensuring that the money is
available, but there is nothingabout sustaining the bodies that
are engaging here.
And I remember, you know, therewas a rigorous debate and
critical reflection about youknow what I meant by that when I
(15:46):
was talking aboutsustainability.
And then I joined the board ofAgent Action Fund and again I
started talking aboutsustainability of activists.
I am not so sure if I quiteunderstood it the way I do now,
but I was talking about it andagain, you know, I was asked
what I meant.
But from there, you know,things started changing and
(16:09):
people started recognizing andrespecting that.
You know we are the people whodo the work and it's very
important to preserve our energy, our dignity, our wellness.
And then I kept deepening myunderstanding of that.
But as time has gone on, Irealized that joy, working with
joy, is very important becausewhen you are not happy,
(16:31):
definitely you can't besustainable.
I also realized that creatingloving organizations although I
was hesitant to use that wordeither way prefer that love word
, but that's what we work for Atthe end of the day, that's what
we work for.
So, naming it and saying thatlove, joy, you know these are
feminist concepts and we shouldnot run away from them.
(16:52):
I started, you know, pushingthat because you wake up in the
morning and you go to work.
If you are not really workingin a loving organization, what
is it?
So I started seeing love assomething that generates energy,
even in our homes.
You know, in the work that wedo on a day-to-day basis.
When there is love, imagine theway, you know, you wake up,
(17:15):
smiling and singing and you arerushing to go and do what you
are going to do.
Where there isn't, then thereis stagnation of energy.
The fire gets extinguished.
So I kept exploring, thinkingabout these things, because I
was really thinking about myselfthings, because I was really
thinking about myself and thekind of spaces where I wanted to
work and where I wanted to be,and then, of course, you know,
(17:36):
sharing with other people.
So of late I've thought very,very much about how love
generates energy and how thatenergy should be at the center
of our work, but also how thatis what we work for, because how
do we talk about human rights,how do we talk about liberation,
how do we talk aboutemancipation without love being
(17:57):
at the center?
I started thinking about thesethings because of the spaces
where I worked Very, veryindifferent.
The government was indifferent.
I have even no words for it.
And then, when we started ourNGOs, yes, we were flexible, we
were, you know, agile, we wereall those things, but still very
, very much scared to talk aboutlove, to talk about fire, to
(18:20):
talk about groundedness, to talkabout joy.
We were scared but tentatively,tentatively, started
introducing these words.
Some people are still scared ofthem, but I think some are
beginning to understand thatthese are feminist words that we
shouldn't surrender to thecorporate sector or to other
(18:41):
institutions.
And the work continues.
There is still a lot of work,you know, that we need to think
about.
There is still a lot of workthat we need to explore Because
of NFT's wellness.
What does it really mean?
You know, how far do we go withit as organizations?
ilana (18:57):
When you're trying to create spaces, organizations,
cultures where taking care ofourselves and caring about
ourselves and our wealth isactually part of the culture,
not something that'sindividualized, like you do it
outside of your work hours andthen in work you just deal with
whatever you're dealing with.
I was having a conversationwith a group of go-go's in South
(19:21):
Africa and I remember one ofthem.
It's quite life-changing for me.
One of them was saying to meyou know, people think that
because we're grandmothers, weare love, we embody love, we
give love.
And she said but peopleunderestimate us because they
don't understand that love isnot just this nice feeling that
we have and that we give.
It's actually what powers us.
(19:42):
It is the power, it's the forcefor resilience, for continuing
on.
Love is actually a power thatwe can tap into.
You shouldn't be ashamed ofusing the word love or talking
about it as a force.
I think it's much easier to saythan it is to do.
Hope (19:59):
Indeed, it can be easier to do.
I cannot forget arriving inToronto and being met with a
flask of coffee and jackets,warm jackets, knowing we are
coming from you know countriesthat usually don't experience
winter Phones, and then you know, like a first aid kit.
(20:23):
What organizations think likethat?
And to you, maybe you know youtook that for granted, but for
me, every time I give an exampleof a loving organization, I
talk about the Stephen LewisFoundation that you led at that
time and the simple things.
You know, easier things tostart with, we don't have to
(20:43):
really go into complications, asif the day-to-day reality
doesn't matter.
Anyone seeing us at the airportwould never have believed that
we were invited by anorganization.
It was like you're invited by,you know, an individual home,
even those.
You don't think about thosedetails.
So we are doing this work.
You've done it, maybe notconsciously, but for us to
(21:05):
observe, yes, you know, we knowthat you've done it.
But where it becomes verydifficult, Ilana, you know, this
work that we are talking aboutis the way how do I put it is
balancing self and collectivecare and promoting care without
diluting the work that we do,because, you know, I've seen
(21:27):
situations where people on theirown, you know they are on their
own personal liberationjourneys, but sometimes they
want to achieve the liberationat the expense of the collective
.
You know where you don't knowhow to create collective.
You know loving boundaries.
So, when we talk about love,what are those loving boundaries
(21:47):
that we can create?
And even there, what isindividual responsibility?
You are talking about creatingorganizations with a soul,
loving organizations.
Where does the organizationstart?
Where do individuals come in?
And for me, you know, these arethings I'm struggling with.
So how can we become better atthis work of shared
(22:10):
accountability when it comes toour well-being, when it comes to
creating a loving organization,when it comes to creating
organizations of joy?
That is a question that I'mgrappling with right now,
because I don't know where westart and end.
We normally assume good faith,but, again, you know, we need to
(22:32):
keep challenging each other anddisagreeing, if that must be,
but disagreeing without hurtingone another.
And then, of course, theconstituencies out there,
because we didn't createorganization for ourselves.
We created them, yes, for usand for our constituencies.
ilana (22:49):
The balancing and the thinking of that through.
I think that's what I meantearlier when I was talking about
vigilance.
There's a willingness to engagein really difficult
conversations.
So I wanted to ask you aboutsomething else.
You move and exude a joyfulness, hope.
When we were traveling inCanada together, I really felt
the profound connection betweensort of creativity and
(23:12):
storytelling and the work thatwe do and the gravitas, the
seriousness of it.
But I want to ask you about thecreative side of life.
How do you think about?
Hope (23:22):
it.
For me, the work of radicalimagination is very important,
and then when I think of thatradical imagination, it goes
into creativity.
I find that there is joy whenwe are being creative.
I find that when we try, andeven you know, imagine our
futures and put it in an artform, and art form takes many
(23:45):
forms.
I cannot, you know, I cannotcompose music, but can design
things.
For example, we werecelebrating my sister-in-law, my
brother's wife, who hadsupported many students.
Well, she's always workedwithin university settings and I
asked at least as many peopleas I could remember that she
(24:05):
supported to donate a piece ofcloth so that we make a skirt
for her.
We created this skirt withdifferent energies, because
that's another thing.
I believe we are energy.
I definitely know that we areenergy, and even in physics we
know energy travels.
So I was trying to create thisenergetic skirt for her to
recognize that this piece camefrom sun.
(24:27):
So we, inside the piece therewere names of people whom she
had supported, at least the onesI could reach.
So imagine you wear that skirtand then, inside the names of
people you have supported, theenergy that goes with that, the
love that goes with that, andthen, when you wear it you're on
fire.
(24:48):
So for me, creativity, you knowit produces pressure about
activism.
It makes us to do work in ajoyful manner, and I know people
do that differently.
But for me I want us to do workthat makes us feel good, smell
good, taste good and make surethat everyone feels that they
belong.
Somehow you build a movement.
(25:09):
Fun making is part of movementbuilding.
But that joy has to bereflected outside.
If you are doing well inside,outside, people will see.
And this doesn't mean that youshould go around, you know,
smiling unnecessarily andpretending you can be joyful 24
hours.
But one of the things I alwaysask myself when things are not
(25:29):
working well, I ask what is inmy tool that I can call upon now
?
And sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't, but
eventually you know something,something will pop up.
So creativity, radicalimagination, connecting these
are things that I find youcreate joy, create love, but
(25:49):
also an interest in people,looking at people.
So I look at people right fromhead to toe and start to really
looking at the way they are puttogether and the beauty of the
way they are put together.
You know, even when I'm at anairport and I've sat there for a
long time.
I can actually sit at anairport for many hours.
I'll be looking at the waypeople are put together.
(26:10):
So that work of imagination, Ithink, cannot be separated from
movement building, fromstrengthening movements.
But also Irana, that it takespositive energy to recognize
positive energy.
Yes, so if you recognizepositive energy in a person, it
means that you yourself, you arecarrying that energy and for me
(26:32):
, energy is important.
I could talk about energy,energy, energy forever.
Energy travels.
So when your soul is dancing,it will connect with my soul and
my soul will know a hinderedspirit and will dance.
You know as well.
ilana (26:49):
I love that so much.
There's something so powerfulabout that storytelling.
These days Hope I hear a lotabout storytelling.
I don't know if it's a renewedinterest connection back to the
importance of the stories wetell.
Who's telling the stories?
Who's listening to the stories?
What are we weaving as we tellthem?
And I know you think about thisand talk about this.
Hope (27:13):
Yeah, I don't know, because I think we are stories,
we are working stories andironically, even this
storytelling, you know, I think,was revived very much by the
corporate sector.
They found the importance of itand I see many management books
too, you know, in form ofstories.
(27:34):
But for me, you know from wherewe are.
If we are thinking aboutradical social change, then you
know we have to thinkexpansively and we have to
really dream, create room fordreaming, and then I don't know
that one can create that roomfor dreaming without telling
stories.
I don't know if one can runaway from what we see around.
(27:58):
You know cynicism, you knowdespair and not really get into
storytelling.
But as Hope I grew up in aculture of storytellers.
It was, I think, for many blackpeople in a way I really
imagine.
You know storytelling has beenwith us, has been part of us,
where you know every opportunitythat you get is a story.
(28:21):
Whether you are workingtogether in a garden, you know
as workers, women, young peopleand others, you are telling
stories.
You are going to fetch water,you are telling stories.
You are fetching firewood, youare telling stories.
Stories are part of us, theyare written on our bodies and
when we talk about decolonizingin our context, when we talk
(28:45):
about decolonizing ourapproaches, I think storytelling
is one of them, because youcan't build I don't know if you
can build a community withoutstories.
Whenever people gather, youknow they share stories.
Especially when they aresharing very difficult
information, they find a way ofsoftening it through a story.
(29:05):
When people want to talk aboutsomeone or to warn you, it's
about a story.
But even if one doesn't, youknow, go that far.
Our organizations are stories.
So we are reclaiming the powerof storytelling and, as I've
said, it seems, you know, thatstorytelling has spread beyond
us as women who work with otherwomen, gender non-conforming
(29:30):
people who work with others,whatever you know variety of
people, intergenerationalconnections.
You know stories are coming back.
You know people are beginningto look at different forms of
resistance and the tools that weare used or that have been used
.
They are beginning to thinkabout the different strategies,
(29:50):
the different stories and howthe stories went around.
I remember one of the storiesthat fascinated me during slave
trade was the one of weavinghair.
How messages were within thedifferent weaves, different
messages.
You know you look at this weave.
You know, oh, we are supposedto run.
You look at that wave, you saystay grounded, this and that,
(30:12):
and I thought, wow, how did welose that?
What happened, yeah, so I thinkwe have many stories, stories
of resistance, stories that arebeautiful stories, that are
joyful stories, that arecreative stories that you know
are effective in a number ofways, and we really need to
continue thinking aboutstorytelling as a very, very
(30:32):
interesting strategy in buildingresistance, in building
movements that serve our people,but also in supporting
ourselves.
ilana (30:41):
Is there a difference for you as you get older?
I wonder.
What lens does it give you?
What reflection does it sparkfor you?
Hope (30:49):
So what I find missing in all these things, when you talk
about old women and whoever elseis there, it's the conversation
on transitions.
I have never understood why wedon't talk about transitions,
why we don't prepare fortransitions, not just because of
age, but there are manytransitions that happen, even
transitioning from one job tothe other, or from transitioning
(31:13):
from a permanent job to workingfrom home.
So because we don't talk aboutthese transitions, there are
gaps.
Maybe if we talked about them,people would also go out and
really find old women whereverthey are, so and so transitioned
.
How is she doing what ishappening?
How can we tap into?
You know what they were doingand what they already know.
(31:34):
So I've been pushing fortransitions in spaces.
I love that some of the wordsthat I use these days I would
have been afraid to use them inthe past.
Even when I talk about love,when I talk about J within an
organizational context, I wasafraid to use those words
because I thought I'd be judged.
For me, it's courage.
(31:56):
I remember the first time Italked about organizations with
a soul, some of them walked out.
They were like I'm not comingto talk about souls, but now, if
they walked out, a great, theymight stay there by myself.
So the thing that stands out forme is courage and the power to
imagine, the power to explore,the power to use a song, if a
(32:18):
song is going to explain whatI'm talking about.
That is what growing old hasmeant for me.
That is what growing old hasmeant for me.
But I find myself talking aboutthings as the way I see them,
the way I want to see them, thethings that I miss talking about
.
I'm talking about that now.
The imagination I wanted when Iwas young and feared using it.
(32:40):
I'm doing that now.
So that's what growing old hasmeant for me.
ilana (32:46):
I love that you use the word courage, because sometimes
I think it's not just thatgetting older means that it gets
easier to do it.
Hope (32:57):
So it still takes courage to do it, to say what you think
and feel.
But I also find that remainingconnected with young people is
good for my soul, Because I'vegot a corner for many young
people.
Some are very exciting, Someare challenging, Some I
challenge them too because Ilook at them and think, wow, you
know you are young, but youractions don't show that.
(33:18):
Some come to me because theywant to just have a conversation
with a Kantaka soul woman.
I think we need thoseintergenerational connections,
conversations, and sometimeswhen I'm talking to them I even
forget that they are much, much,much, much younger than me,
because some of them they lookvery young in age but the souls
(33:39):
are very old and when you're incommon cause.
ilana (33:42):
Yes, such a deep connection.
Hope (33:44):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
But I think that part of theageism is a donor instrument,
because you know now, whereveryou go, you go to a meeting say,
oh, you know.
Do you want to share what istroubling you now?
Do you want to share what theissues are right now and they
talk about and things connectedwith age, even without thinking,
(34:06):
because that's what they havebeen told, you know, that's what
the funders want to hear.
So for sure, I mean, age is anissue we need to keep talking
because we come from differentgenerations.
But I also think that can beexaggerated and put in context
where it doesn't apply.
ilana (34:23):
I completely agree, you talk about and write about
outrage, a lot of people who aregalvanized and mobilizing, many
cataclysmic moments unfoldingand I just wanted to hear what
you're thinking and even perhaps, how you're engaging with
others around these things.
Hope (34:39):
You know, one of the things that I've been thinking
about very much is the power ofthe ecosystem, that over the
years we separated ourselvesfrom nature.
In these troubled times, I'vefound much, much comfort in
going back to nature, thinkingabout biodiversity, you know,
and how things connect, becausethe way we are now, if we don't
(35:03):
enhance our relationships again,going to our area of
conversation in terms of age, interms of sexuality, in terms of
you know where we are placed inlife If we don't strengthen
that, we are finished.
I also find that what we aregoing through calls for, you
know, small, small things.
(35:24):
You know it might not be a hugemovement, but groups that meet
every now and again.
The other day I was sittinghere.
I was so troubled and I wasthinking I need someone to talk
to Creating those islands ofsupport and knowing that, you
know, when things are tough,there are these islands of
support.
Of course, I mean I'm lookingat that at the micro level, but
(35:47):
I think that's where we startfrom.
Then we can broaden it.
I started learning about thoseislands of support when things
were tough in Zimbabwe and theycontinue to be tough.
I learned that there must becorners where I'll sit and even
forget what is happening in thecontext and concentrate on me so
(36:08):
that, as I've said, the innergarden is strong as to face the
outer.
And the other thing that Ithink about very much is what
we've talked about integratingpressure and well-being into the
work that we do, but also joyand healing as essential
elements of the work that we do.
So just seeing pleasure as anatural part and vital part of
(36:33):
my life, of our lives, andtrying to create safe and
supportive spaces for joy, so Icannot imagine that we can
manage this world without someform of healing, you know, of
some sort, because if we don'theal, you know, more and more
bitterness sits on our bodies.
Fear, fear, this word calledfear.
(36:53):
I don't know how many peopleI've talked to of late and they
said to me I'm so scared, I'm soscared Even when they are not
looking at the big picture, butfrom where they are.
I'm talking a lot about fearand how we can really, in an
honest way, see how weexperience it and the strategies
we can use to minimize it, but,more than anything else, the
(37:15):
power of connection, connecting,connecting globally.
You know, you hear thisstatement, trump comes up with
this statement and you sit withit all day long.
But when you connect, whetherit is on zoom, whether it is,
you know, face to face, you goaway with some kind of hope
about the future and you canreally get honest and look at,
(37:38):
you know the world and share,and you know see where you can
borrow from other.
Post strategiesstrategies Arewe building communities from
where we are?
Are we being supportive?
Are we connecting with nature?
Where are we headed if we arenot talking?
I see new groups of youngactivists emerging.
(38:00):
They are so fearless.
You know, ilana, think aboutthe LGBTIQ movement in Uganda.
Those people, I can't get overthem.
There is a lot of courage, andthen that goes for the
environmental movement as well.
I mean, you see young peoplewho are very, very brave, who
are speaking out.
So for me, I see there is hopefor the future.
(38:21):
Yeah, there is hope for thefuture.
Sometimes we think that, oh,what is going to happen when we
are no longer here?
There are so many people whoare doing great things and they
work along, you know, with thiswork.
ilana (38:32):
And I take a lot of hope too from that , especially
around climate justice andactivism.
I see so much intergenerationalwork happening, so many older
women in particular.
Hope (38:43):
You know there is fire.
There is fire here and thereyou find those pockets of fire.
You know much as there is somuch fear, there is fearlessness
as well.
ilana (38:51):
This is a perfect note to end on.
I want to end with fearlessness.
You always give me and give usso much to think about, hope and
provoke us to go deeper, and Ithank you from the bottom of my
heart for this conversation.
Hope (39:07):
No, but you are very provocative too.
I'm very happy to connect withyou.
ilana (39:11):
Thank you, Hope, I feel the same way.
Hope (39:14):
Thanks very much.
ilana (39:15):
Bye.
Thanks for listening.
I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, yourhost of Wisdom at Work older
women, elder women andgrandmothers on the move.
To find out more about me orthe podcast, you can go to
wisdomatworkpodcastcom, formerlygrandmothers on the move, and
you can find the podcast at allyour favorite places to listen
to them.
Tune in next week.
(39:35):
Thanks and bye-bye for now.
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