Welcome! This is ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast: Elderwomen, Older women and Grandmothers on the Move!
What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series... 'Age With Rights and Dignity' - 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world. These committed champions and advocates will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons, and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the rights of older persons into being - for you and me, no matter how old we are now!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in ourolder age?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:24):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions andadvocates will share with us why
they care about the rights ofolder persons and what they are
doing to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the
Rights of Older Persons intobeing.
For you and for me, no matterhow old we are.
(00:46):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble Human RightsDay 2024 blog to find out more
that is A-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dotcom and sign the global petition
for the UN Convention on theRights of Older Persons.
(01:08):
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us.
Enjoy this special initiative,and my thanks to Margaret Young,
(01:28):
the founder of Age Noble, forbringing this opportunity to us
to hear from these importantguests who promote the human
rights and the dignity of olderpersons the world over.
Today I'm speaking with VijayNaraidu, the founding member of
the Mauritian NGO DIMOIS HumanRights Indian Ocean, and an
(01:48):
educator, public relationsofficer, human rights defender,
formerly Secretary General ofthe Mauritius National
Commission for UNESCO under theaegis of the Ministry of
Education, formerly the ChiefOperations Officer of the
National Housing DevelopmentCompany, vijay is an active
leader in regional andinternational non-profit
organizations, such as theGlobal Alliance for the Rights
(02:11):
of Older People, sga, africanand International Network on the
Prevention of Elder Abuse.
Hello, vijay, and welcome toWisdom at Work podcast.
It is a real pleasure and anhonor to speak with you today.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Hello Ilana, the pleasure is mine.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It's wonderful to have you and, as you know, this
is part of a series ofconversations with advocates and
activists working on bringingto fruition this convention on
the rights of older persons andexploring together the different
dimensions of the work that'shappening, what the
contributions are of wonderfulpeople like yourself who have
been at this for a long time,and to help people understand
(02:52):
and appreciate what's at stake,what are the issues, and so,
vijay, it would be sointeresting to hear from you.
How did you come to this?
Clearly, you've been doing itfor many years, but what brought
you to the realization of thetransgression of, or the absence
of, human rights in thefullness of their potential for
older persons?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think I should start from my own background.
I hail from a family of theworking class, so we had a lot
of challenges.
Even as a child I could see myparents doing sometimes more
than one job in order to makeboth ends meet.
And I had a grandmotherpaternal grandmother whom I had
(03:35):
always known to be an old personshe died at the age of 96
actually and I could see heralso at work in the formal
sector.
Then, when I grew up, I wasalready sensitized to the fate
of older persons who had to work, even after what we call
retirement age, at the age of 60.
(03:57):
Now, at work, I was exposedwith my own pupils coming from
different backgrounds, you know,with my own pupils coming from
different backgrounds, but still, you know, from the working
class, because at the time themerchants were not that high
income economy as we have today.
Then, little by little, Ichanged, you know that, my
sector of work until such time Icame to work in the UNESCO
(04:21):
section of the Ministry ofEducation.
But here too, when you are inUNESCO, it of the Ministry of
Education.
But here too, when you are inUNESCO, it is about, you know,
education, science, culture, howpeople you know find themselves
or the challenges that theyhave to face inside these
sectors.
So, but side by side, myprofessional life had a social
(04:43):
engagement, you know, in youthclubs, in agricultural youth
clubs, in cooperatives, in tradeunion, which, at some time, I
went around the country, youngas I was, to talk to people
about the advantages of acooperative society, be it a
store society, be it a creditunion, and so on and so forth.
(05:07):
Now when, in 2011, I left, Iretired from the public sector,
I met with my friends.
They too, they were retiring,some were still at work, and we
set to meet and discuss abouthuman rights.
One of our colleagues, who ispresently the Director General
(05:28):
of GIMOIA, l'illini Courant.
He was himself a member or theleader of Amnesty International
in Mauritius.
So when Amnesty moved out ofBerkshire, went to Madagascar,
then there was a void, so we getinto it.
And then we discussed aboutdifferent ways and means, a
(05:52):
strategy.
The first thing that we had todo was to conscientize people on
the human rights.
But what was the tactic?
Inside the organization, it wascreating commissions.
Inside the organization, it wascreating commissions,
(06:28):
specialized commissions likeCommission for the Rights of
Children, commission for theRights of Disabled People,
commission for the Rights ofWomen, environment and
Commission for the Rights ofOlder Persons.
So they found in me, the, theone who would uh, lead that
commission right with a team.
You know, in a commission wehave two or three persons
because we have membership.
If a commission is that big asan executive committee then it
won't work.
We need three, three dynamicpeople or four, to make research
, to come with proposals and todefine how we are going to, what
(06:53):
to tell to the people.
So right from there we cameinto contact with HelpAge
International and onwards toKarog this is where I started
getting, you know, imbibedinside the what we call this
greater campaign.
So shall we excuse me if I sayI sometimes huh, it's not
(07:17):
personal, it's a teamwork.
Teamwork is how we got intodoing things locally, then
regionally and internationally,to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
And so DIMOIS is.
Let's talk about that for alittle bit, because you alluded
to it in terms of how thatfacilitated the work that you
were doing once you retired fromUNESCO.
That you were doing once youretired from UNESCO, but DIMOIS
is a human rights organization,then that was supposed to step
in and fill the void thatAmnesty had left behind.
Was that the founding sort ofthinking?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, the fact that we had what we call an active
past.
We were all engaged indifferent sectors of social life
, of public life.
We were all engaged, so gettinginto it wasn't difficult, it
was not a big challenge.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So it was exposing ourselves, educating ourselves
about human rights, because thechallenges of the day, not only
for older persons, for children,and then you know, we were
close to understanding what thesustainable development goals
are in terms of education forchildren, for youth, you know,
(08:34):
for women and so on.
So it wasn't a difficult taskto understand, because we had
senior people who had been, youknow, militating for the
government of Mauritius to sign,for example, the CEDAW, the
Convention for the Rights ofWomen, the Convention for the
Rights of Children, and so onand so forth.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It wasn't difficult sort of organic evolution, but
the natural political evolutionthat you're talking about, from
understanding really the livedrealities of the people with
whom you were working and onwhose behalf you were advocating
, and really that's a natural, Ithink, evolution to working on
the human rights, rather thanlooking at it as sort of a
benign or a benevolent, friendlything for a government to do to
(09:22):
provide for its citizens onething or another, but to see it
actually as a right, as afundamental human right that has
an obligation.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yes, and the underlying message is that human
beings are owners of theirrights.
Yes, and we endeavored todevelop a locus standi.
That is when government wouldask us but who are you to speak
on the right of people?
Who are you Then?
We'd say, by the way, we haveregistered Dimois as a legal
(09:52):
entity, we are a political, wehave got our own individual
opinion politically, but we donot as a human rights
organization.
We do not at affiliate or notaffiliated with any local
political party, so we areindependent.
Therefore, whatever be thegovernment in place, we do not
(10:14):
have any qualmer discussing withcentral government or with the
line ministries.
By the way, the line ministryis a Minister of Social Security
, whether it is for the rightsof the disabled person or rights
of older persons, and the otherland ministry is the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs.
Yes, and then we work, ofcourse, with the National Human
(10:35):
Rights Commission.
It is financially supported bygovernment.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Right, I mean, I love how you talk about it because
it's really about the humanfamily.
Love how you talk about itbecause it's really about the
human family.
It's not about each group, eachage group in its own sort of
silo in its own moment, but but,yeah, continuum of rights along
our lives.
And I think it would be reallyinteresting to hear from you,
vijay, you know, what do you seeas the gaps in promoting human
(10:59):
rights, the protection of, butalso the enjoyment of, human
rights by older persons inMauritius?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, Mauritius, being it is highly developed,
developing fast, but then we aregetting people who are living
older or longer, which is aworld phenomenon.
People are living longer.
Women are living longer than men, and many of older people today
(11:26):
are living alone becausechildren have gone abroad or
they haven't had partners intheir life, or they have become
widows or widowers or they havedisability.
So we should have specialattention for these people.
I'm focusing on these peoplefor whom there are gaps, for
(11:46):
example, their capacity to renta house, even a social housing,
you know enough financialsupport to meet with additional
needs like food, quality food,renting a house, having access,
leisure.
So these are the gaps that Ihad in mind, amongst others,
here.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
And I know that you have a particular concern, Vijay
, about older persons' rights toan adequate standard of living.
I wonder if you could elaborateon that in the work that's been
happening in Mauritius.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
An adequate standard of living is a fundamental human
right and is in Article 25 ofthe Universal Declaration of
Human Rights.
It encompasses access toadequate food, clothing, housing
, healthcare and social services, ensuring individuals can live
(12:37):
in dignity.
For older people, this right iscritical.
They often face vulnerabilitiesdue to declining health,
financial instability and socialisolation.
In Mauritius, while significantstrides have been made to
support older people, such asthe universal old age pension,
which benefits approximately231,000 older citizens, or 18%
(13:02):
of the population, according tothe latest statistics.
Gaps still remain to fullyupholding this right.
Firstly, housing and livingconditions for some older
individuals are inadequate.
Many live alone in deterioratinghousing, with 10% of the
households lacking basicamenities like proper sanitation
(13:25):
or running water.
Secondly, healthcare access isa major concern.
While Mauritius has a robustpublic health system, all the
people often struggle with longwaiting times for specialized
care and the cost of privatehealth care remains prohibitive
for me.
A 2023 survey of the Minister ofHealth revealed that over 30
(13:49):
percent of older people delay oravoid seeking medical treatment
due to affordability issues.
Thirdly, social inclusion islacking, despite the government
and NGO efforts, such as the CEO, citizen associations and
activities.
Loneliness efforts affects 43%of all the others, as reported.
(14:13):
Addressing this gap requirestargeted policies such as
improving housing conditions,enhancing healthcare
affordability and access, andpromoting intergenerational
programs to reduce isolation.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Ensuring an adequate standard of living for older
people is not just a moralobligation, but a societal
imperative of fostering dignityand equality in the country, and
I know, vijay, that you have adeep commitment to ensuring that
older persons are consulted,participating in these processes
(14:49):
, and that you hold thesemulti-stakeholder meetings, and
I wonder if you can tell us moreabout that.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, whatever conventions, international
conventions, governance orprotocols that we, yeah,
whatever conventions,international conventions,
governance or protocols that wehave, they're, all you know,
academic interpretation,academic connotations for the
masses, for the people.
Now, right from the start, whatwe did?
Go around identifying thedifferent potential partners and
(15:17):
stakeholders in the sociallandscape having to do with
human rights.
We identified people at theMinistry of Social Security.
We made ourselves known at theNational Human Rights Commission
.
We identified the SeniorCitizens Council and the Merced
Family Planning and WelfareAssociation, which is a human
(15:39):
rights organization put up bygovernment, by law.
Now the host of otherorganizations like the FIAPA,
the International Federation ofAssociations of Older Persons,
and then we have got other NGOs.
And then we link with theMauritius Council of Social
Services, which is an apexorganization of NGOs in the
(15:59):
country.
Trade unions.
We went around identifying allthe senior citizens associations
in the rural and urbanlocalities and the women's
association, which meetregularly, almost every week in
the community developmentcenters.
We met with their leadingpersons.
(16:20):
Then, little by little, what Idid with my team, I went around
outreaching the people in theircommunity, in their locality,
whether it's urban or rural,because for me the principle is
that you meet the people attheir convenience in a place
(16:40):
where they can hear you,especially older persons, at a
time which is convenient forthem to come out to listen and
to go home safely.
So even the church, theCatholic Church, has invited us
and other cultural organizations.
So once we have done this, wehave, through time for the past
10 years, going out again andagain to the people.
(17:03):
We have consolidated thisapproach by training, online
training, human rights Eightmodules, including one module on
human rights of older persons,and then consolidated this
online by in-presence presence,in person trading at the seat of
(17:23):
our organization.
At the same time, what I'mtelling you for older persons
has been in parallel, then forother persons, for other sectors
of the population, for example,children and youth and others.
Therefore, what we did, we havebeen writing, year after year,
media articles in the press.
(17:44):
We have been able to secure twopages in the best daily
published every day.
So every week, on Monday, wehave two pages dedicated for GMA
.
I don't know how many articlesI've been writing on why we
should have a convention, whyall the population should be
(18:05):
interested in the rights ofolder persons, because we
encourage intergenerationaldialogue between the younger
generation and the oldergeneration.
And then I've been ontelevision several times and on
the radio stations today, forexample, on the International
Day of Older Persons.
(18:25):
We do not go and ask them doyou want us to make a statement?
No, today they solicit us.
The TV comes to our office, yousee, so we have secured the
credibility and the local systemdie.
By this I mean that we arelegitimate.
We are credible when you speakon behalf of people, of the
(18:49):
population, with government.
I should tell you that we haveextrapolated what we have been
doing in the region by ourflyers, by our posters, by our
meetings, what we have beendoing, extrapolating in the
islands of the southwest IndianOcean.
For example, I have been to theKumaro, my colleagues have been
(19:14):
to Madagascar, we have been inthe Seychelles, in all these
islands, in the Seychelles, inall these islands, because we
have helped our fellow activistsin these islands to put up
Dimois entities over there,which means that today we have
made a network of Dimois.
So you see the resonance ofwhat we are doing, not to
(19:36):
mention what our engagement withNPR I mean it really is what
needs engagement with NPR, withGaro, with Hypage.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I mean, it really is what needs to happen, yes, which
is building a movement, amomentum and a movement and a
network that picks up steam butalso that allows people to speak
in their own voice about whatit is they want to see happen.
And to switch just a little bit, because you've talked about
the region and I think it'simportant for people to hear
from you to help us thinkthrough.
(20:01):
You know there are alreadymultiple human rights
instruments, so it's not as ifthere aren't some existing
attempts at really contendingwith and thinking about and
deepening the conversation andthe understanding of what older
persons and older women's rightswould look like and what they
consist of, and so I've heardgovernments have been raising
(20:22):
questions in the working groupat the UN to say, why do we need
a convention if we have theseother instruments that are out
there that can be used?
So what do you say, vijay?
Why do we need a wholeconvention on the rights of
older persons when we have somemechanisms in place?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, you're right.
For example, you mentioned theoriginal mechanism is the
African Union Protocol for theRights of Older Persons in
Africa, which came into being asa protocol in 2016.
Since then, in Mauritius, gimwahas been in the forefront to
lobby with the government theonly NGO to lobby with the
(20:59):
government to sign and ratifythe protocol.
So, in May 2022, we had ameeting with the Minister of
Foreign Affairs and the Ministryof Social Security, and the
state of Mauritius signed theprotocol.
Since then, we have been askingfor meetings, writing and so on
, for them to ratify yes, as anAfrican state, not only in
(21:23):
solidarity, but to be faithfulto our engagement I mean,
speaking for Mauritius, the factthat this is an EU protocol.
As a member state of the EU, Ithink our state, the state of
Mauritius, has the duty to sign,yes, but to ratify it.
(21:43):
But this, however, the protocoldoesn't provide protection 100%
for the rights of older persons.
No, it is not sufficient.
What we need is an international, legally binding instrument for
the United Nations.
The protocol is okay, but it'snot sufficient.
(22:05):
What we need is a convention.
Why the convention?
Because the convention willprovide, you know, a
comprehensive framework.
It will be a binding instrument.
The process is like this If Iknow, the UN will take the time
that it will take to gather allthe brains around the table to
(22:27):
start writing a draft.
I know it will take the timethat it will take writing a
draft.
I know the time that it willtake.
But then the convention willcome as a motion.
Our respective countries willinform the Separatist Journal of
its intention to sign and thenratify that convention.
(22:50):
We'll have to domesticate it inour constitution of Mauritius
like any other country.
Once it is domesticated, thatis approved by the government,
the cabinet or even theopposition will support it,
because the state is not a party.
Now, once it's domesticated, itwill be for the duty of all
(23:11):
stakeholders government mainly,the National Human Rights
Commission, the private sector,civil society, ngos.
We can see whether the state isapplying whatever it has signed
and ratified.
You know, you have theindependent expert or the
(23:43):
secretary general, or you haveindependent expert to come and
see in the country what istaking place.
Ngos, they are like watchdogs,they will see what is happening
in the country, what is takingplace.
Ngos, they are like watchdogs,they will see what is happening
in the country.
So once it is binding, thegovernment is bound to see that
the clauses, the conditions, thearticles of the convention are
(24:05):
respected and if not, a shadowreport from an NGO respectable
NGO will do the needful.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, and those shadow reports are so powerful, just
so people understand that thereare committees that then are
appointed government appointeeswho oversee these reports from
the countries.
When you ratify a convention,you have to come and report on
how you're doing andimplementing the convention, and
these shadow reports come fromcivil society sometimes academic
institutions as well, that giveanother lens on how are things
(24:37):
really going for in their view,in the view of those who are
advocates, how is implementationreally going?
And before we end, vijay, Iwant to think about that with
you and hear from you about thisthat let's imagine down the
road that a convention finallyexists.
When you really think down theroad, all of the advocacy you've
been doing and the work you'vebeen doing and what you're
(24:57):
hearing from older people as youspeak to them in communities
what starts to change?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I'll not say it in many words Dignity, dignity,
respect, attacking ageism atits root.
Human rights will become aculture well embedded, because
we shall see to it that humanrights become an academic
subject, informally andinformally, right from the
(25:25):
primary school.
Primary school you can dosketch, you can do right of
drama.
I've been a teacher.
I know that, how to teachchildren, to convey to the
children human rights and, inparticular, if you want, the
rights of older people.
From there the message will gofrom the teacher to the students
and to the parents.
There will be a kind offeedback and then, in the long
(25:47):
run, we shall have it.
You know, I'm not dreaming, butI think it is possible to have
a society where human rights ofevery segment of the population
is respected.
So dignity is one respect, andthen the personality of each
person, of each human being,because each human being is the
(26:10):
owner of their rights, not onlybeneficiaries.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I love that way of understanding it, because we're
not thinking of people assupplicants, you know, asking
for help or as beneficiaries,but fundamentally the right of
every person to enjoy theirrights, have adequate access to
health care and housing at any,any age, at all ages.
But in particular it seems likeit's almost the last bastion of
(26:35):
invisibility or of neglectaround older persons.
To me it's confounding becausewe're all headed in that
direction.
If we're lucky and we live long, then we will end up there
ourselves yeah, you know, beingconscious of this invisibility
or neglect.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
being conscious of this invisibility or neglect,
being conscious of this.
Last month, that was in August,we conducted a survey to
determine the degree olderpeople are victims of ageism.
We have concluded the survey,but we have not yet started
analysing the data.
(27:07):
So, as you say, yes, olderpeople are invisible.
Sometimes they have no say,even in the family circle.
They're subjected to violence,neglect, abuse, even in
Mauritius.
And this happens in all socialclasses, not only in the working
class, in all classes.
These older people do not wantto go and report because they
(27:31):
say their children areprofessionals.
You know, they don't want toshame the children.
This is what is happening.
But then, our duty as an NGO, wehave to address this problem of
ageism, sensitize people on it,because you know, we have got
legislation, the ElderlyProtection Act of 2005, where we
(27:52):
have elderly watch.
So we take all theseingredients, we prepare paper,
then when we go to the people,we talk to them about this, we
kind of, as we say in French,vulgariser, making things simple
for them to understand.
So it's not, as I say, onlyacademic, to give ourselves a
kind of good conscience.
(28:12):
We register, we record fromthem.
We note what they say.
What are their queries, theirissues, their challenges.
Then how do you transfer this?
You know, for example, I havebeen to Geneva in 2019, thanks
to Garop In 2019, where I hadtwo minutes to say the
(28:34):
importance of the convention.
So I go with a message and then, when we publish, every week,
whenever we have an article onall the persons rights, on our
campaign, I mail all mycorrespondence across the world,
from Nepal to Argentina, fromEurope to any country in Africa.
(28:57):
It's a continuum.
It's a continuum.
So we have to put in all myenergy.
I think we are on a noble way.
What we are doing is noble andit is humanity that we are
addressing.
So we have come a long way,from cave dwelling to new towns.
(29:18):
We have come a long way fromthe Universal Declaration of
Human Rights.
It's a declaration.
The time has come forconventions, as we have been
saying it.
So time has come for aconvention for the rights of
older persons.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Vijay, thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure tospeak with you today and thank
you for all you do, and all youwill continue to do, for the
rights of older persons.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Thank you very much.
Pleasure talking to you.
Welcome.
This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis,your host for the Wisdom at Work
podcast.
Elder Women, older Women andGrandmothers on the Move.
What follows is a special andexciting 10-part series.
Have you ever thought about howhuman rights plays an essential
and meaningful role in ourolder age?
Well, you're in the right place.
You're listening to Age withRights and Dignity 10 interviews
(00:24):
in which we will hear fromolder and younger advocates from
different corners of the world.
These committed champions andadvocates will share with us why
they care about the rights ofolder persons and what they are
doing to help bring a new UnitedNations Convention on the
Rights of Older Persons intobeing.
For you and for me, no matterhow old we are.
(00:46):
Now Join the movement and raiseyour voice.
Go to the Age Noble Human RightsDay 2024 blog to find out more
that is A-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-E dotcom and sign the global petition
for the UN Convention on theRights of Older Persons.
(01:08):
I'm also excited to introduceyou to two wonderful guest
interviewers, younger women whoare committed to these issues
and will be joining me in thisseries to interview some of our
esteemed guests Faith Young andKira Goenis.
Thank you for joining us.
Enjoy this special initiative,and my thanks to Margaret Young,
(01:28):
the founder of Age Noble, forbringing this opportunity to us
to hear from these importantguests who promote the human
rights and the dignity of olderpersons the world over.
Today I'm speaking with VijayNaraidu, the founding member of
the Mauritian NGO DIMOIS HumanRights Indian Ocean, and an
(01:48):
educator, public relationsofficer, human rights defender,
formerly Secretary General ofthe Mauritius National
Commission for UNESCO under theaegis of the Ministry of
Education, formerly the ChiefOperations Officer of the
National Housing DevelopmentCompany, vijay is an active
leader in regional andinternational non-profit
organizations, such as theGlobal Alliance for the Rights
(02:11):
of Older People, sga, africanand International Network on the
Prevention of Elder Abuse.
Hello, vijay, and welcome toWisdom at Work podcast.
It is a real pleasure and anhonor to speak with you today.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Hello Ilana, the pleasure is mine.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It's wonderful to have you and, as you know, this
is part of a series ofconversations with advocates and
activists working on bringingto fruition this convention on
the rights of older persons andexploring together the different
dimensions of the work that'shappening, what the
contributions are of wonderfulpeople like yourself who have
been at this for a long time,and to help people understand
(02:52):
and appreciate what's at stake,what are the issues, and so,
vijay, it would be sointeresting to hear from you.
How did you come to this?
Clearly, you've been doing itfor many years, but what brought
you to the realization of thetransgression of, or the absence
of, human rights in thefullness of their potential for
older persons?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think I should start from my own background.
I hail from a family of theworking class, so we had a lot
of challenges.
Even as a child I could see myparents doing sometimes more
than one job in order to makeboth ends meet.
And I had a grandmotherpaternal grandmother whom I had
(03:35):
always known to be an old personshe died at the age of 96
actually and I could see heralso at work in the formal
sector.
Then, when I grew up, I wasalready sensitized to the fate
of older persons who had to work, even after what we call
retirement age, at the age of 60.
(03:57):
Now, at work, I was exposedwith my own pupils coming from
different backgrounds, you know,with my own pupils coming from
different backgrounds, but still, you know, from the working
class, because at the time themerchants were not that high
income economy as we have today.
Then, little by little, Ichanged, you know that, my
sector of work until such time Icame to work in the UNESCO
(04:21):
section of the Ministry ofEducation.
But here too, when you are inUNESCO, it of the Ministry of
Education.
But here too, when you are inUNESCO, it is about, you know,
education, science, culture, howpeople you know find themselves
or the challenges that theyhave to face inside these
sectors.
So, but side by side, myprofessional life had a social
(04:43):
engagement, you know, in youthclubs, in agricultural youth
clubs, in cooperatives, in tradeunion, which, at some time, I
went around the country, youngas I was, to talk to people
about the advantages of acooperative society, be it a
store society, be it a creditunion, and so on and so forth.
(05:07):
Now when, in 2011, I left, Iretired from the public sector,
I met with my friends.
They too, they were retiring,some were still at work, and we
set to meet and discuss abouthuman rights.
One of our colleagues, who ispresently the Director General
(05:28):
of GIMOIA, l'illini Courant.
He was himself a member or theleader of Amnesty International
in Mauritius.
So when Amnesty moved out ofBerkshire, went to Madagascar,
then there was a void, so we getinto it.
And then we discussed aboutdifferent ways and means, a
(05:52):
strategy.
The first thing that we had todo was to conscientize people on
the human rights.
But what was the tactic?
Inside the organization, it wascreating commissions.
Inside the organization, it wascreating commissions,
(06:28):
specialized commissions likeCommission for the Rights of
Children, commission for theRights of Disabled People,
commission for the Rights ofWomen, environment and
Commission for the Rights ofOlder Persons.
So they found in me, the, theone who would uh, lead that
commission right with a team.
You know, in a commission wehave two or three persons
because we have membership.
If a commission is that big asan executive committee then it
won't work.
We need three, three dynamicpeople or four, to make research
, to come with proposals and todefine how we are going to, what
(06:53):
to tell to the people.
So right from there we cameinto contact with HelpAge
International and onwards toKarog this is where I started
getting, you know, imbibedinside the what we call this
greater campaign.
So shall we excuse me if I sayI sometimes huh, it's not
(07:17):
personal, it's a teamwork.
Teamwork is how we got intodoing things locally, then
regionally and internationally,to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
And so DIMOIS is.
Let's talk about that for alittle bit, because you alluded
to it in terms of how thatfacilitated the work that you
were doing once you retired fromUNESCO.
That you were doing once youretired from UNESCO, but DIMOIS
is a human rights organization,then that was supposed to step
in and fill the void thatAmnesty had left behind.
Was that the founding sort ofthinking?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, the fact that we had what we call an active
past.
We were all engaged indifferent sectors of social life
, of public life.
We were all engaged, so gettinginto it wasn't difficult, it
was not a big challenge.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So it was exposing ourselves, educating ourselves
about human rights, because thechallenges of the day, not only
for older persons, for children,and then you know, we were
close to understanding what thesustainable development goals
are in terms of education forchildren, for youth, you know,
(08:34):
for women and so on.
So it wasn't a difficult taskto understand, because we had
senior people who had been, youknow, militating for the
government of Mauritius to sign,for example, the CEDAW, the
Convention for the Rights ofWomen, the Convention for the
Rights of Children, and so onand so forth.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It wasn't difficult sort of organic evolution, but
the natural political evolutionthat you're talking about, from
understanding really the livedrealities of the people with
whom you were working and onwhose behalf you were advocating
, and really that's a natural, Ithink, evolution to working on
the human rights, rather thanlooking at it as sort of a
benign or a benevolent, friendlything for a government to do to
(09:22):
provide for its citizens onething or another, but to see it
actually as a right, as afundamental human right that has
an obligation.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yes, and the underlying message is that human
beings are owners of theirrights.
Yes, and we endeavored todevelop a locus standi.
That is when government wouldask us but who are you to speak
on the right of people?
Who are you Then?
We'd say, by the way, we haveregistered Dimois as a legal
(09:52):
entity, we are a political, wehave got our own individual
opinion politically, but we donot as a human rights
organization.
We do not at affiliate or notaffiliated with any local
political party, so we areindependent.
Therefore, whatever be thegovernment in place, we do not
(10:14):
have any qualmer discussing withcentral government or with the
line ministries.
By the way, the line ministryis a Minister of Social Security
, whether it is for the rightsof the disabled person or rights
of older persons, and the otherland ministry is the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs.
Yes, and then we work, ofcourse, with the National Human
(10:35):
Rights Commission.
It is financially supported bygovernment.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Right, I mean, I love how you talk about it because
it's really about the humanfamily.
Love how you talk about itbecause it's really about the
human family.
It's not about each group, eachage group in its own sort of
silo in its own moment, but but,yeah, continuum of rights along
our lives.
And I think it would be reallyinteresting to hear from you,
vijay, you know, what do you seeas the gaps in promoting human
(10:59):
rights, the protection of, butalso the enjoyment of, human
rights by older persons inMauritius?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, Mauritius, being it is highly developed,
developing fast, but then we aregetting people who are living
older or longer, which is aworld phenomenon.
People are living longer.
Women are living longer than men, and many of older people today
(11:26):
are living alone becausechildren have gone abroad or
they haven't had partners intheir life, or they have become
widows or widowers or they havedisability.
So we should have specialattention for these people.
I'm focusing on these peoplefor whom there are gaps, for
(11:46):
example, their capacity to renta house, even a social housing,
you know enough financialsupport to meet with additional
needs like food, quality food,renting a house, having access,
leisure.
So these are the gaps that Ihad in mind, amongst others,
here.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
And I know that you have a particular concern, Vijay
, about older persons' rights toan adequate standard of living.
I wonder if you could elaborateon that in the work that's been
happening in Mauritius.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
An adequate standard of living is a fundamental human
right and is in Article 25 ofthe Universal Declaration of
Human Rights.
It encompasses access toadequate food, clothing, housing
, healthcare and social services, ensuring individuals can live
(12:37):
in dignity.
For older people, this right iscritical.
They often face vulnerabilitiesdue to declining health,
financial instability and socialisolation.
In Mauritius, while significantstrides have been made to
support older people, such asthe universal old age pension,
which benefits approximately231,000 older citizens, or 18%
(13:02):
of the population, according tothe latest statistics.
Gaps still remain to fullyupholding this right.
Firstly, housing and livingconditions for some older
individuals are inadequate.
Many live alone in deterioratinghousing, with 10% of the
households lacking basicamenities like proper sanitation
(13:25):
or running water.
Secondly, healthcare access isa major concern.
While Mauritius has a robustpublic health system, all the
people often struggle with longwaiting times for specialized
care and the cost of privatehealth care remains prohibitive
for me.
A 2023 survey of the Minister ofHealth revealed that over 30
(13:49):
percent of older people delay oravoid seeking medical treatment
due to affordability issues.
Thirdly, social inclusion islacking, despite the government
and NGO efforts, such as the CEO, citizen associations and
activities.
Loneliness efforts affects 43%of all the others, as reported.
(14:13):
Addressing this gap requirestargeted policies such as
improving housing conditions,enhancing healthcare
affordability and access, andpromoting intergenerational
programs to reduce isolation.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Ensuring an adequate standard of living for older
people is not just a moralobligation, but a societal
imperative of fostering dignityand equality in the country, and
I know, vijay, that you have adeep commitment to ensuring that
older persons are consulted,participating in these processes
(14:49):
, and that you hold thesemulti-stakeholder meetings, and
I wonder if you can tell us moreabout that.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, whatever conventions, international
conventions, governance orprotocols that we, yeah,
whatever conventions,international conventions,
governance or protocols that wehave, they're, all you know,
academic interpretation,academic connotations for the
masses, for the people.
Now, right from the start, whatwe did?
Go around identifying thedifferent potential partners and
(15:17):
stakeholders in the sociallandscape having to do with
human rights.
We identified people at theMinistry of Social Security.
We made ourselves known at theNational Human Rights Commission
.
We identified the SeniorCitizens Council and the Merced
Family Planning and WelfareAssociation, which is a human
(15:39):
rights organization put up bygovernment, by law.
Now the host of otherorganizations like the FIAPA,
the International Federation ofAssociations of Older Persons,
and then we have got other NGOs.
And then we link with theMauritius Council of Social
Services, which is an apexorganization of NGOs in the
(15:59):
country.
Trade unions.
We went around identifying allthe senior citizens associations
in the rural and urbanlocalities and the women's
association, which meetregularly, almost every week in
the community developmentcenters.
We met with their leadingpersons.
(16:20):
Then, little by little, what Idid with my team, I went around
outreaching the people in theircommunity, in their locality,
whether it's urban or rural,because for me the principle is
that you meet the people attheir convenience in a place
(16:40):
where they can hear you,especially older persons, at a
time which is convenient forthem to come out to listen and
to go home safely.
So even the church, theCatholic Church, has invited us
and other cultural organizations.
So once we have done this, wehave, through time for the past
10 years, going out again andagain to the people.
(17:03):
We have consolidated thisapproach by training, online
training, human rights Eightmodules, including one module on
human rights of older persons,and then consolidated this
online by in-presence presence,in person trading at the seat of
(17:23):
our organization.
At the same time, what I'mtelling you for older persons
has been in parallel, then forother persons, for other sectors
of the population, for example,children and youth and others.
Therefore, what we did, we havebeen writing, year after year,
media articles in the press.
(17:44):
We have been able to secure twopages in the best daily
published every day.
So every week, on Monday, wehave two pages dedicated for GMA
.
I don't know how many articlesI've been writing on why we
should have a convention, whyall the population should be
(18:05):
interested in the rights ofolder persons, because we
encourage intergenerationaldialogue between the younger
generation and the oldergeneration.
And then I've been ontelevision several times and on
the radio stations today, forexample, on the International
Day of Older Persons.
(18:25):
We do not go and ask them doyou want us to make a statement?
No, today they solicit us.
The TV comes to our office, yousee, so we have secured the
credibility and the local systemdie.
By this I mean that we arelegitimate.
We are credible when you speakon behalf of people, of the
(18:49):
population, with government.
I should tell you that we haveextrapolated what we have been
doing in the region by ourflyers, by our posters, by our
meetings, what we have beendoing, extrapolating in the
islands of the southwest IndianOcean.
For example, I have been to theKumaro, my colleagues have been
(19:14):
to Madagascar, we have been inthe Seychelles, in all these
islands, in the Seychelles, inall these islands, because we
have helped our fellow activistsin these islands to put up
Dimois entities over there,which means that today we have
made a network of Dimois.
So you see the resonance ofwhat we are doing, not to
(19:36):
mention what our engagement withNPR I mean it really is what
needs engagement with NPR, withGaro, with Hypage.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I mean, it really is what needs to happen, yes, which
is building a movement, amomentum and a movement and a
network that picks up steam butalso that allows people to speak
in their own voice about whatit is they want to see happen.
And to switch just a little bit, because you've talked about
the region and I think it'simportant for people to hear
from you to help us thinkthrough.
(20:01):
You know there are alreadymultiple human rights
instruments, so it's not as ifthere aren't some existing
attempts at really contendingwith and thinking about and
deepening the conversation andthe understanding of what older
persons and older women's rightswould look like and what they
consist of, and so I've heardgovernments have been raising
(20:22):
questions in the working groupat the UN to say, why do we need
a convention if we have theseother instruments that are out
there that can be used?
So what do you say, vijay?
Why do we need a wholeconvention on the rights of
older persons when we have somemechanisms in place?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, you're right.
For example, you mentioned theoriginal mechanism is the
African Union Protocol for theRights of Older Persons in
Africa, which came into being asa protocol in 2016.
Since then, in Mauritius, gimwahas been in the forefront to
lobby with the government theonly NGO to lobby with the
(20:59):
government to sign and ratifythe protocol.
So, in May 2022, we had ameeting with the Minister of
Foreign Affairs and the Ministryof Social Security, and the
state of Mauritius signed theprotocol.
Since then, we have been askingfor meetings, writing and so on
, for them to ratify yes, as anAfrican state, not only in
(21:23):
solidarity, but to be faithfulto our engagement I mean,
speaking for Mauritius, the factthat this is an EU protocol.
As a member state of the EU, Ithink our state, the state of
Mauritius, has the duty to sign,yes, but to ratify it.
(21:43):
But this, however, the protocoldoesn't provide protection 100%
for the rights of older persons.
No, it is not sufficient.
What we need is an international, legally binding instrument for
the United Nations.
The protocol is okay, but it'snot sufficient.
(22:05):
What we need is a convention.
Why the convention?
Because the convention willprovide, you know, a
comprehensive framework.
It will be a binding instrument.
The process is like this If Iknow, the UN will take the time
that it will take to gather allthe brains around the table to
(22:27):
start writing a draft.
I know it will take the timethat it will take writing a
draft.
I know the time that it willtake.
But then the convention willcome as a motion.
Our respective countries willinform the Separatist Journal of
its intention to sign and thenratify that convention.
(22:50):
We'll have to domesticate it inour constitution of Mauritius
like any other country.
Once it is domesticated, thatis approved by the government,
the cabinet or even theopposition will support it,
because the state is not a party.
Now, once it's domesticated, itwill be for the duty of all
(23:11):
stakeholders government mainly,the National Human Rights
Commission, the private sector,civil society, ngos.
We can see whether the state isapplying whatever it has signed
and ratified.
You know, you have theindependent expert or the
(23:43):
secretary general, or you haveindependent expert to come and
see in the country what istaking place.
Ngos, they are like watchdogs,they will see what is happening
in the country, what is takingplace.
Ngos, they are like watchdogs,they will see what is happening
in the country.
So once it is binding, thegovernment is bound to see that
the clauses, the conditions, thearticles of the convention are
(24:05):
respected and if not, a shadowreport from an NGO respectable
NGO will do the needful.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, and those shadow reports are so powerful, just
so people understand that thereare committees that then are
appointed government appointeeswho oversee these reports from
the countries.
When you ratify a convention,you have to come and report on
how you're doing andimplementing the convention, and
these shadow reports come fromcivil society sometimes academic
institutions as well, that giveanother lens on how are things
(24:37):
really going for in their view,in the view of those who are
advocates, how is implementationreally going?
And before we end, vijay, Iwant to think about that with
you and hear from you about thisthat let's imagine down the
road that a convention finallyexists.
When you really think down theroad, all of the advocacy you've
been doing and the work you'vebeen doing and what you're
(24:57):
hearing from older people as youspeak to them in communities
what starts to change?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I'll not say it in many words Dignity, dignity,
respect, attacking ageism atits root.
Human rights will become aculture well embedded, because
we shall see to it that humanrights become an academic
subject, informally andinformally, right from the
(25:25):
primary school.
Primary school you can dosketch, you can do right of
drama.
I've been a teacher.
I know that, how to teachchildren, to convey to the
children human rights and, inparticular, if you want, the
rights of older people.
From there the message will gofrom the teacher to the students
and to the parents.
There will be a kind offeedback and then, in the long
(25:47):
run, we shall have it.
You know, I'm not dreaming, butI think it is possible to have
a society where human rights ofevery segment of the population
is respected.
So dignity is one respect, andthen the personality of each
person, of each human being,because each human being is the
(26:10):
owner of their rights, not onlybeneficiaries.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I love that way of understanding it, because we're
not thinking of people assupplicants, you know, asking
for help or as beneficiaries,but fundamentally the right of
every person to enjoy theirrights, have adequate access to
health care and housing at any,any age, at all ages.
But in particular it seems likeit's almost the last bastion of
(26:35):
invisibility or of neglectaround older persons.
To me it's confounding becausewe're all headed in that
direction.
If we're lucky and we live long, then we will end up there
ourselves yeah, you know, beingconscious of this invisibility
or neglect.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
being conscious of this invisibility or neglect,
being conscious of this.
Last month, that was in August,we conducted a survey to
determine the degree olderpeople are victims of ageism.
We have concluded the survey,but we have not yet started
analysing the data.
(27:07):
So, as you say, yes, olderpeople are invisible.
Sometimes they have no say,even in the family circle.
They're subjected to violence,neglect, abuse, even in
Mauritius.
And this happens in all socialclasses, not only in the working
class, in all classes.
These older people do not wantto go and report because they
(27:31):
say their children areprofessionals.
You know, they don't want toshame the children.
This is what is happening.
But then, our duty as an NGO, wehave to address this problem of
ageism, sensitize people on it,because you know, we have got
legislation, the ElderlyProtection Act of 2005, where we
(27:52):
have elderly watch.
So we take all theseingredients, we prepare paper,
then when we go to the people,we talk to them about this, we
kind of, as we say in French,vulgariser, making things simple
for them to understand.
So it's not, as I say, onlyacademic, to give ourselves a
kind of good conscience.
(28:12):
We register, we record fromthem.
We note what they say.
What are their queries, theirissues, their challenges.
Then how do you transfer this?
You know, for example, I havebeen to Geneva in 2019, thanks
to Garop In 2019, where I hadtwo minutes to say the
(28:34):
importance of the convention.
So I go with a message and then, when we publish, every week,
whenever we have an article onall the persons rights, on our
campaign, I mail all mycorrespondence across the world,
from Nepal to Argentina, fromEurope to any country in Africa.
(28:57):
It's a continuum.
It's a continuum.
So we have to put in all myenergy.
I think we are on a noble way.
What we are doing is noble andit is humanity that we are
addressing.
So we have come a long way,from cave dwelling to new towns.
(29:18):
We have come a long way fromthe Universal Declaration of
Human Rights.
It's a declaration.
The time has come forconventions, as we have been
saying it.
So time has come for aconvention for the rights of
older persons.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Vijay, thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure tospeak with you today and thank
you for all you do, and all youwill continue to do, for the
rights of older persons.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Thank you very much.
Pleasure talking to you.
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