June 10, 2024 • 45 mins
Welcome to the Wise Wealth Podcast! In this exciting episode, host Samuel welcomes Philipp Buschmann, a founder of AAZZUR, an innovative embedded finance company. Philipp shares his inspiring journey from learning to program at a young age to becoming a successful entrepreneur.
Philipp discusses the unique solutions AAZZUR offers, enabling mid-sized companies to embed financial services quickly and cost-effectively. He delves into the evolution of fintech products, the importance of interoperability, and the impact of open banking on the industry.
The conversation also explores Philipp's entrepreneurial background, including his experiences in the oil and gas industry and his learnings from both successes and failures. He emphasizes the value of adapting to market changes and the importance of focusing on what technology can achieve for businesses.
Join us for an insightful discussion on the future of embedded finance, the challenges of entrepreneurship, and the exciting developments on the horizon for AAZZUR.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back everybody to the Wise Wealth Podcast. We've got an awesome guest
on the show. Excited to see where this one goes.
I'd like to welcome Philipp Buschmann to the podcast.
We're going to hand over to Philipp and give himself an introduction about background
so everybody can find out a little bit more about you. Thank you,
Samuel, for having me. Yes, I am Philipp.
I'm a founder, one of the founders of Azure.
(00:22):
I'm Austrian, but I left Austria when I was 18 to become an entrepreneur and
go to school. Tech background, really.
And Azure is an embedded finance company that allows our clients,
which are usually mid-sized companies,
to embed financial services about 10 times cheaper and four times faster than
(00:46):
if they did it themselves.
So we remove the complexity and democratize the access to embedded banking,
embedded well, embedded cards.
And it's really a toolbox that people can use. So they only need a product manager
and a business manager instead of a whole team to deploy embedded finance and
(01:06):
the promise of embedded finance into their products.
So how did you get involved in that? What sort of your background?
Yes. So first thing I did was learn how to program when I'm nine.
Didn't have a girlfriend until I was 16.
Went to college and continued doing it. Actually didn't study computer science,
(01:27):
but did a lot of computer science courses.
And that's how you got the job at the time. And my first projects were already
financial services projects when I'm out of uni.
And so the subject area chose me.
And so, you know, worked on the banking products of Sparkhouse,
(01:47):
Barclays, State Street Bank, trading systems and all that.
So somehow, I guess I'm the right kind of geek for this kind of business.
Okay. And so like, let's talk a little bit more about the products.
Like, so is there anything in the pipeline that's exciting to you that's,
you know, that the future holds? Like where's the business going? Okay.
(02:10):
Yeah, so the times are really good. I think that if you look at all the different
fintech products that are out there, they are reaching maturity, right?
So the nature of Azure is that we work with a lot of API providers in the different
spaces, card, well, ETFs, whatever.
And when we got started, there definitely didn't seem to be all of the products
(02:32):
quite ready for the market.
But today you can build a private bank, you know, for about a tenth of what
it might have cost just 10 years ago.
What I'm particularly excited in is the interoperability, meaning being able
to use one provider to pay another provider.
I find it really exciting that single sign up and single login are all becoming
(02:55):
normal, meaning that my KYC data can transport things which were not so seamless
are becoming more seamless.
And that means that a lot
of companies can now start benefiting from providing
loyalty products or you know
wealth as a loyalty for example in their products which was previously just
(03:20):
an incompletely unreachable goal for most for most players yeah now that sounds
very interesting definitely time is a changing within that do you think that
open banking has been a big contributor to that side of things,
Back in 2018, people would have said, what's open banking? This is never going to have any use cases.
(03:40):
I think that today we quite appreciate it, right?
Lying for loans or even just checking your age or being able to pay by bank
account instead of card.
These all innovations came with open banking and I think that has been a success
and is becoming even more success as time goes forward.
(04:02):
Now, I suppose from like your side, you know, I would say I'm interested to
know more about your entrepreneurial journey.
What does that look like sort of like what's your, what's your mission?
What, how did you get here to, to achieve this?
You know, from an entrepreneur side of things, is this the single business that you've got?
(04:24):
Have you got multiple interests in different businesses? is it'd be
quite great to find out a little bit more about yourself and how
you know you've you've grown as well yeah so
when i grew up i was seven years old when my parents got divorced and my mom
left with pretty much no money and became an entrepreneur and from not being
able to have enough money for food she went to have 50 houses hotels nightclubs
(04:52):
and everything yeah and so,
we need to get your mum on the podcast.
Yeah her story is a movie,
And so I saw the success and then I also, I saw how my mom never changed her mind about the market.
So when the market changed, she lost it all, almost all of it. Right.
(05:14):
So I really have seen that entrepreneurial journey and that,
so I always wanted to be an entrepreneur and I always wanted to be a tech entrepreneur.
And so I left Austria cause the word entrepreneur didn't exist at the time.
Went to America, worked for a startup, which was Razorfish. I was like 100 employees,
first 100 employees or so.
Saw that scale to 5,000 people, went to business school.
(05:38):
And after business school, I decided that I would be a strategy consultant,
which was really good to learn how large companies think and all that.
But I didn't want to do PowerPoints for the rest of my life.
And the moment I could, I became back an entrepreneur. I've done it a few times.
I've taken the company public. This is from my victim.
So company also seen it
(06:00):
go sideways yeah so it's all of that
but how azure just to stop
to butt in there what what was the company that you took public what
was that about so it was it
was i was more in a company building role somebody from
switzerland wanted to build a company in the oil and gas space and i was working
(06:25):
at a consulting company and they said listen do you want to write as a business
plan i went to america to to to investigate and meet partners and projects and,
put together a team and the business plan got funded and we drilled for oil we found oil.
And the company was profitable i think within
(06:46):
the first year or two it's a long time now i don't remember everything we were
lucky to get the ceo shell would be one of our advisors right and And then the
company did an RTO onto one of the logos of Nasdaq. And so it just went really fast.
Yeah. And I thought I was very smart and everything.
(07:08):
But to be honest, I was just very, very lucky because oil went from,
I think, $40 to over $100 a barrel.
And when something like that happens, you can look very smart very easily.
Or maybe you're just not giving yourself the credit. Right place,
right time, timing. Timing is everything.
(07:30):
Did you get the CEO as the advisor yourself or was that someone else?
No, since I don't know anything about or didn't know anything about oil and
gas, I hired people who did know about oil and gas.
And worked there for a while and eventually exited
businesses that business much due
(07:51):
to cultural differences and some yeah
and some other things and then decided to start
another company another company well i
mean i i would say it's partly talent but i suppose when
you've got something rallying like that it's uh you get
a lot of eyeballs on those businesses that have got access to
to oil right so I think it's a right time
(08:13):
right place environment so suppose after
that you know where did you go with that that must
have been quite nice you've you know you exit a
business it was a success where do you go
from there after the oil and gas industry I thought
I mean I thought I could repeat it with a bit you know doing everything
smarter better with more equity unit myself and stuff
(08:34):
but the second company we sold the
assets for pennies on the dollar because the oil price went from then.
150 down to 30 right so saw
exactly something where everyone's a
genius a couple years ago and then everybody's a you know
it's a bit of an idiot and i'm seeing a little bit of like
that in fintech over the last years as well so it's a very.
(08:55):
Familiar feeling did that sort of like hit
it strings with like what you saw from your
mother as in she built this big thing and then
it came crashing down and you saw you had that
huge win and then you had a loss and you're sitting there
thinking am i repeating this sort of process yes
and no the thing the difference is that i i
(09:17):
can change my mind about where the
market is and the reason we i think
what i learned there and when you see it and feel it
is you apply this to the company hopefully you
can learn right and at Azure we
we saw this market change and
(09:38):
a lot of companies are not around anymore so we never
you know we had investors say oh you know spend
your money faster hire more people grow
quicker you're not ambitious enough and had we
done that we'd be gone right so we always
had an approach of being aggressive
but at the same time rational what if
(09:59):
these contracts don't come in the way they're supposed to what if the market
turns what if we can't raise money as fast as we can as we think and and so
i think i learned we learned something out of that but the other thing i learned
is if you are in a business like say oil and gas trading or gold or whatever it is.
Your entire existence is one price that's out there that you have no influence on.
(10:23):
And the reason I'm back in tech and back in banking tech is because the illusion
maybe, but I think it's also true, that it's more about what you bring to the
table and what you can achieve.
Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. And so that company, you said that company,
you sold pennies on the dollar. After that, where do you go from there?
(10:46):
Then I thought, oh, so I've seen it a few things now. Now I'll be a,
you know, kind of a co-founder as a service.
So I said, I found people who wanted to found things and I wanted to be the
co-founder, you know, like, and have two or three of these companies at the same time.
I thought it's all too binary. Either company works or doesn't work.
(11:06):
So I did that and it made money and it was, you know, it paid the bills,
but I learned some very important things, which is that founders don't want
to listen to their co-founder typically because they're founders.
And especially a co-founder as a service is very hard to really make people
do the things you think they should be doing.
(11:28):
And, uh, and so I said, okay, actually this, this is okay.
Pays the bills, but it's not good enough. Like I have, I'm the kind of person
I need to be a founder, a co-founder, and I need to be, and then,
you know, after some time I met Martin and Richard and then,
you know, we did this work.
And now from a, from a sort of business interest perspective,
(11:50):
is, is that your only business that you're working with?
Day in, day out, morning to night, weekends, holidays, hotel, yeah. Yeah.
The way that you, the way that you imagine it.
And I suppose, like, I just want to sort of highlight the journey of this going forward.
(12:12):
Like, do you have a, do you have a plan for this, like your other businesses
for, uh, for a bigger exit?
What's, what's the sort of future hold for you in that respect?
Yeah so i think what so what we what we first wanted to be in martin richard
and i met on a previous project i've known richard for a very long time but
(12:34):
we met and and what we first wanted to be is a challenger bank for internationals
in europe a bit like muniz maybe,
and but monies for germany say
yeah and what we
learned there was that you need to monetize the customer because
you can't charge anything or charge very little for the accounts and so you
(12:55):
have to monetize the customer so you have to build a platform across different
fintech products and so we wanted to build this platform across different fintech
products to monetize a customer base so a little bit like starling bank that
has this you know like fintech products and and add-ons.
And on the other side a little bit like money so that's what we wanted to do
it was a lot to do and investors didn't believe in the market maybe but didn't
(13:20):
believe that the team was the right team to do it they looked at us they said
look at you guys look at the team photo,
these are nerds geeks and not that b2c marketing people you're not cool enough
do not do not think you're gonna sell b2c products you're not that person but
the i want to remember says this thing over here this thing that can plug into
(13:40):
different fintech products and then plug into you know know,
into say new banks or other products that I think would be something.
And we, in 2019, 2020, we pivoted to that.
And a year later that was called FinTech orchestration and embedded finance.
The names didn't exist yet.
And as soon as the name started existing, we could start selling it because
(14:03):
before we couldn't describe it.
And so, so now you said that, you know, people aren't interested in nerds like
us, are they now interested in you?
Or do you have a marketing team that does that side for you now?
It took us a long time to learn that people don't care about the technology,
they care about what the business does for them.
(14:26):
So that was it. We were at the FinTech Innovation Lab out of Accenture London about 18 months ago or
so and that's when the
the penny dropped and i
said like listen if you want to sell this to people don't tell them about your
technology tell them about what they can do with your technology and why they
(14:47):
want to do that and then i learned that different industries all so i met in
finance can bring you about 10 in two or three years on the bottom line and
that's a really big lever to pull for a relatively small investment, especially with Azure.
So that's a really cool thing. But an airline might do an embedded banking product for loyalty, right?
(15:11):
While on the other hand, let's say a payday lender will do it to reduce defaults.
So the product may be very similar, but the KPIs that you manipulate to the
customer are very different.
So that's why if you have a horizontal solution, you have to talk vertical use
(15:31):
cases, and these vertical use
cases have to speak to the customer in the language that they understand.
So once we realized that, I said, Okay, well, what, what, where do we want to focus?
And who do we want to be doing business with? And who do we talk to?
And and that's when it really started clicking.
(15:52):
So ultimately, you're sort of selling efficiency in their business back to them,
if that makes sense so we can we can implement this
and it's going to improve your efficiency by xyz and
put sort of like kpis in in play of
how that works is that what you're saying yes so
for example yes we work with the lender for example
(16:12):
where the money used to be paid out to an account and then
paid back right and in the future the
account will be paid on an account they can control
to some degree and where the salary also comes into
so that will totally change the game on
what the default rate will be for that lender for the loans that they make yeah
so but so they could have done that before they could have gone to modular or
(16:37):
they could have gone to eden red rail serve you know there's a ton of suppliers
but if you want to do that that kind of embedded banking end-to-end
yourself that's a two million pound investment maybe one to two might take you
12 to 18 months end to end and so who is going to do that and that means you
have a team of 10 people you have to hire you have to understand the apis you
(16:59):
have to understand the intake space when in reality all they want is.
Welcome back everybody to the Wise Wealth Podcast. We've got an awesome guest
on the show. Excited to see where this one goes.
I'd like to welcome Philipp Buschmann to the podcast.
We're going to hand over to Philipp and give himself an introduction about background
so everybody can find out a little bit more about you. Thank you,
Samuel, for having me. Yes, I am Philipp.
I'm a founder, one of the founders of Azure.
(00:22):
I'm Austrian, but I left Austria when I was 18 to become an entrepreneur and
go to school. Tech background, really.
And Azure is an embedded finance company that allows our clients,
which are usually mid-sized companies,
to embed financial services about 10 times cheaper and four times faster than
(00:46):
if they did it themselves.
So we remove the complexity and democratize the access to embedded banking,
embedded well, embedded cards.
And it's really a toolbox that people can use. So they only need a product manager
and a business manager instead of a whole team to deploy embedded finance and
(01:06):
the promise of embedded finance into their products.
So how did you get involved in that? What sort of your background?
Yes. So first thing I did was learn how to program when I'm nine.
Didn't have a girlfriend until I was 16.
Went to college and continued doing it. Actually didn't study computer science,
(01:27):
but did a lot of computer science courses.
And that's how you got the job at the time. And my first projects were already
financial services projects when I'm out of uni.
And so the subject area chose me.
And so, you know, worked on the banking products of Sparkhouse,
(01:47):
Barclays, State Street Bank, trading systems and all that.
So somehow, I guess I'm the right kind of geek for this kind of business.
Okay. And so like, let's talk a little bit more about the products.
Like, so is there anything in the pipeline that's exciting to you that's,
you know, that the future holds? Like where's the business going? Okay.
(02:10):
Yeah, so the times are really good. I think that if you look at all the different
fintech products that are out there, they are reaching maturity, right?
So the nature of Azure is that we work with a lot of API providers in the different
spaces, card, well, ETFs, whatever.
And when we got started, there definitely didn't seem to be all of the products
(02:32):
quite ready for the market.
But today you can build a private bank, you know, for about a tenth of what
it might have cost just 10 years ago.
What I'm particularly excited in is the interoperability, meaning being able
to use one provider to pay another provider.
I find it really exciting that single sign up and single login are all becoming
(02:55):
normal, meaning that my KYC data can transport things which were not so seamless
are becoming more seamless.
And that means that a lot
of companies can now start benefiting from providing
loyalty products or you know
wealth as a loyalty for example in their products which was previously just
(03:20):
an incompletely unreachable goal for most for most players yeah now that sounds
very interesting definitely time is a changing within that do you think that
open banking has been a big contributor to that side of things,
Back in 2018, people would have said, what's open banking? This is never going to have any use cases.
(03:40):
I think that today we quite appreciate it, right?
Lying for loans or even just checking your age or being able to pay by bank
account instead of card.
These all innovations came with open banking and I think that has been a success
and is becoming even more success as time goes forward.
(04:02):
Now, I suppose from like your side, you know, I would say I'm interested to
know more about your entrepreneurial journey.
What does that look like sort of like what's your, what's your mission?
What, how did you get here to, to achieve this?
You know, from an entrepreneur side of things, is this the single business that you've got?
(04:24):
Have you got multiple interests in different businesses? is it'd be
quite great to find out a little bit more about yourself and how
you know you've you've grown as well yeah so
when i grew up i was seven years old when my parents got divorced and my mom
left with pretty much no money and became an entrepreneur and from not being
able to have enough money for food she went to have 50 houses hotels nightclubs
(04:52):
and everything yeah and so,
we need to get your mum on the podcast.
Yeah her story is a movie,
And so I saw the success and then I also, I saw how my mom never changed her mind about the market.
So when the market changed, she lost it all, almost all of it. Right.
(05:14):
So I really have seen that entrepreneurial journey and that,
so I always wanted to be an entrepreneur and I always wanted to be a tech entrepreneur.
And so I left Austria cause the word entrepreneur didn't exist at the time.
Went to America, worked for a startup, which was Razorfish. I was like 100 employees,
first 100 employees or so.
Saw that scale to 5,000 people, went to business school.
(05:38):
And after business school, I decided that I would be a strategy consultant,
which was really good to learn how large companies think and all that.
But I didn't want to do PowerPoints for the rest of my life.
And the moment I could, I became back an entrepreneur. I've done it a few times.
I've taken the company public. This is from my victim.
So company also seen it
(06:00):
go sideways yeah so it's all of that
but how azure just to stop
to butt in there what what was the company that you took public what
was that about so it was it
was i was more in a company building role somebody from
switzerland wanted to build a company in the oil and gas space and i was working
(06:25):
at a consulting company and they said listen do you want to write as a business
plan i went to america to to to investigate and meet partners and projects and,
put together a team and the business plan got funded and we drilled for oil we found oil.
And the company was profitable i think within
(06:46):
the first year or two it's a long time now i don't remember everything we were
lucky to get the ceo shell would be one of our advisors right and And then the
company did an RTO onto one of the logos of Nasdaq. And so it just went really fast.
Yeah. And I thought I was very smart and everything.
(07:08):
But to be honest, I was just very, very lucky because oil went from,
I think, $40 to over $100 a barrel.
And when something like that happens, you can look very smart very easily.
Or maybe you're just not giving yourself the credit. Right place,
right time, timing. Timing is everything.
(07:30):
Did you get the CEO as the advisor yourself or was that someone else?
No, since I don't know anything about or didn't know anything about oil and
gas, I hired people who did know about oil and gas.
And worked there for a while and eventually exited
businesses that business much due
(07:51):
to cultural differences and some yeah
and some other things and then decided to start
another company another company well i
mean i i would say it's partly talent but i suppose when
you've got something rallying like that it's uh you get
a lot of eyeballs on those businesses that have got access to
to oil right so I think it's a right time
(08:13):
right place environment so suppose after
that you know where did you go with that that must
have been quite nice you've you know you exit a
business it was a success where do you go
from there after the oil and gas industry I thought
I mean I thought I could repeat it with a bit you know doing everything
smarter better with more equity unit myself and stuff
(08:34):
but the second company we sold the
assets for pennies on the dollar because the oil price went from then.
150 down to 30 right so saw
exactly something where everyone's a
genius a couple years ago and then everybody's a you know
it's a bit of an idiot and i'm seeing a little bit of like
that in fintech over the last years as well so it's a very.
(08:55):
Familiar feeling did that sort of like hit
it strings with like what you saw from your
mother as in she built this big thing and then
it came crashing down and you saw you had that
huge win and then you had a loss and you're sitting there
thinking am i repeating this sort of process yes
and no the thing the difference is that i i
(09:17):
can change my mind about where the
market is and the reason we i think
what i learned there and when you see it and feel it
is you apply this to the company hopefully you
can learn right and at Azure we
we saw this market change and
(09:38):
a lot of companies are not around anymore so we never
you know we had investors say oh you know spend
your money faster hire more people grow
quicker you're not ambitious enough and had we
done that we'd be gone right so we always
had an approach of being aggressive
but at the same time rational what if
(09:59):
these contracts don't come in the way they're supposed to what if the market
turns what if we can't raise money as fast as we can as we think and and so
i think i learned we learned something out of that but the other thing i learned
is if you are in a business like say oil and gas trading or gold or whatever it is.
Your entire existence is one price that's out there that you have no influence on.
(10:23):
And the reason I'm back in tech and back in banking tech is because the illusion
maybe, but I think it's also true, that it's more about what you bring to the
table and what you can achieve.
Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. And so that company, you said that company,
you sold pennies on the dollar. After that, where do you go from there?
(10:46):
Then I thought, oh, so I've seen it a few things now. Now I'll be a,
you know, kind of a co-founder as a service.
So I said, I found people who wanted to found things and I wanted to be the
co-founder, you know, like, and have two or three of these companies at the same time.
I thought it's all too binary. Either company works or doesn't work.
(11:06):
So I did that and it made money and it was, you know, it paid the bills,
but I learned some very important things, which is that founders don't want
to listen to their co-founder typically because they're founders.
And especially a co-founder as a service is very hard to really make people
do the things you think they should be doing.
(11:28):
And, uh, and so I said, okay, actually this, this is okay.
Pays the bills, but it's not good enough. Like I have, I'm the kind of person
I need to be a founder, a co-founder, and I need to be, and then,
you know, after some time I met Martin and Richard and then,
you know, we did this work.
And now from a, from a sort of business interest perspective,
(11:50):
is, is that your only business that you're working with?
Day in, day out, morning to night, weekends, holidays, hotel, yeah. Yeah.
The way that you, the way that you imagine it.
And I suppose, like, I just want to sort of highlight the journey of this going forward.
(12:12):
Like, do you have a, do you have a plan for this, like your other businesses
for, uh, for a bigger exit?
What's, what's the sort of future hold for you in that respect?
Yeah so i think what so what we what we first wanted to be in martin richard
and i met on a previous project i've known richard for a very long time but
(12:34):
we met and and what we first wanted to be is a challenger bank for internationals
in europe a bit like muniz maybe,
and but monies for germany say
yeah and what we
learned there was that you need to monetize the customer because
you can't charge anything or charge very little for the accounts and so you
(12:55):
have to monetize the customer so you have to build a platform across different
fintech products and so we wanted to build this platform across different fintech
products to monetize a customer base so a little bit like starling bank that
has this you know like fintech products and and add-ons.
And on the other side a little bit like money so that's what we wanted to do
it was a lot to do and investors didn't believe in the market maybe but didn't
(13:20):
believe that the team was the right team to do it they looked at us they said
look at you guys look at the team photo,
these are nerds geeks and not that b2c marketing people you're not cool enough
do not do not think you're gonna sell b2c products you're not that person but
the i want to remember says this thing over here this thing that can plug into
(13:40):
different fintech products and then plug into you know know,
into say new banks or other products that I think would be something.
And we, in 2019, 2020, we pivoted to that.
And a year later that was called FinTech orchestration and embedded finance.
The names didn't exist yet.
And as soon as the name started existing, we could start selling it because
(14:03):
before we couldn't describe it.
And so, so now you said that, you know, people aren't interested in nerds like
us, are they now interested in you?
Or do you have a marketing team that does that side for you now?
It took us a long time to learn that people don't care about the technology,
they care about what the business does for them.
(14:26):
So that was it. We were at the FinTech Innovation Lab out of Accenture London about 18 months ago or
so and that's when the
the penny dropped and i
said like listen if you want to sell this to people don't tell them about your
technology tell them about what they can do with your technology and why they
(14:47):
want to do that and then i learned that different industries all so i met in
finance can bring you about 10 in two or three years on the bottom line and
that's a really big lever to pull for a relatively small investment, especially with Azure.
So that's a really cool thing. But an airline might do an embedded banking product for loyalty, right?
(15:11):
While on the other hand, let's say a payday lender will do it to reduce defaults.
So the product may be very similar, but the KPIs that you manipulate to the
customer are very different.
So that's why if you have a horizontal solution, you have to talk vertical use
(15:31):
cases, and these vertical use
cases have to speak to the customer in the language that they understand.
So once we realized that, I said, Okay, well, what, what, where do we want to focus?
And who do we want to be doing business with? And who do we talk to?
And and that's when it really started clicking.
(15:52):
So ultimately, you're sort of selling efficiency in their business back to them,
if that makes sense so we can we can implement this
and it's going to improve your efficiency by xyz and
put sort of like kpis in in play of
how that works is that what you're saying yes so
for example yes we work with the lender for example
(16:12):
where the money used to be paid out to an account and then
paid back right and in the future the
account will be paid on an account they can control
to some degree and where the salary also comes into
so that will totally change the game on
what the default rate will be for that lender for the loans that they make yeah
so but so they could have done that before they could have gone to modular or
(16:37):
they could have gone to eden red rail serve you know there's a ton of suppliers
but if you want to do that that kind of embedded banking end-to-end
yourself that's a two million pound investment maybe one to two might take you
12 to 18 months end to end and so who is going to do that and that means you
have a team of 10 people you have to hire you have to understand the apis you
(16:59):
have to understand the intake space when in reality all they want is.
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