June 17, 2024 • 38 mins
Welcome to the Wise Wealth Podcast! In this episode, we dive deep into the mindset required for building and sustaining generational wealth. Our special guest, Jessica McGawley, a psychological consultant and founder of Dallington, shares her insights on the importance of failure, resilience, and the challenges faced by young adults from affluent families.
Jessica discusses how promoting a healthy relationship with failure is crucial for personal and professional growth. She highlights the common pitfalls in parenting within wealthy families and the significance of letting children experience and learn from their mistakes.
The conversation also explores the evolving mindset of younger generations, their heightened social awareness, and the concept of wealth shame. Jessica offers practical advice on how to address these issues, emphasizing the need for open communication and the normalization of failure within the family.
Tune in to learn about the importance of budgeting, setting boundaries, and understanding privilege. Discover actionable steps to foster resilience and prepare the next generation for the realities of life and wealth management.
To find out more about Jessica's work and services, visit Dallington and Jessica McGawley's consultancy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome everybody to the Wise Wealth Podcast. We've got an awesome guest on
the show today. I'm going to let her introduce herself.
We're going to be talking about a lot around the mindset, about wealth,
about failing, and I think these are all interesting aspects,
whether you've already made your money in the world or whether or not you're
aspiring to make your money in the world.
So I'll hand over to Jessica. Please give us an introduction about yourself
(00:21):
and let everybody know who you are.
Thanks, Sam. Hi, I'm Jess, Jessica McGawley. I am a psychological consultant,
mediator, and the founder of Dallington.
Dallington is a practice specifically for young adults from multi-generational family businesses.
And we support them as they are growing up, typically aged 16 to 30,
(00:43):
with everything personal and professional.
Awesome. So we were having a brief chat before we pressed record and we were
talking about failure and I suppose how that sort of affects generational wealth.
And I think what we're talking about is probably really valuable.
And that's why I wanted to press the record button.
So let's try to go back to it.
Give us your thought process of the failure side of things within wealth generation
(01:07):
and sort of what your experience is with that.
So I think, you know, promoting failure as a parent is key across the board.
It doesn't matter if it's wealth or not.
Helping your children develop a healthy relationship with failing,
getting back up is the key to developing...
Authentic self-esteem. However, it's particularly difficult and misunderstood
(01:30):
within successful families because typically the first generation wealth creators
will have failed so many times.
I mean, I'm sure you know this, your listeners will know this,
as in all the successes that they have got to will have been because they failed,
learned, failed, learned, and climbed that mountain.
The problem is unwittingly, and we all do it, myself included,
(01:53):
you want to provide the best for your
children and sometimes you feel that the best is giving
them an easy life and comfort and you know nice holidays things like that it
also helps you sometimes offset the guilt of of being so busy and being at work
and that's also important to note the problem with it is what we then get is
(02:15):
you know teenagers young adults in their 20s who have such a bad relationship with failure,
that when something relatively small goes wrong, like not getting your first
choice of university or failing your driving test, and it feels like the end of the world.
So basically, we're robbing our kids, really, of that skill set.
(02:38):
Is that sort of what you're saying? Yeah, absolutely.
None of us want to see, you know, you've got a child, I've got children.
None of us want to see our kids in pain.
The problem is there's a difference between letting them fail and also letting them suffer.
Now, to give you a pinch of salt, because I know that sounds brutal,
but you know when your child falls over in the playground?
(03:00):
And you just pick them back up and you go, right, let's crack on.
And that's good. You want them to do that. But sometimes it does actually matter
that they see the blood, that they hurt their knee and they're a little bit
more careful next time. It doesn't mean that you pander to it.
It's the same with this. When one of the young adults we work with makes a big
mistake, that could be anything from genuinely failing in an exam because they
(03:24):
didn't prep or blowing the budget, whatnot. I always say to the parent, let them feel the pain.
If they have spent their entire uni budget in the first week,
you let them feel that pain and let them eat what all the other students are
eating. Don't come in and save the day.
Otherwise, you'd rob them of the experience of learning.
Yeah and i suppose from from that
(03:47):
aspect why have we why have
we built up this sort of belief or or
judgment that because times are changing
right there's you know there's i'm i'm a massive
advocate for winning or failing and
giving it your best shot but now you get sort of
like contribution badges and
(04:09):
everybody gets everybody gets a sticker when
they join in and i i just just cannot relate to
that i don't understand it and i think it's i think
that is creating ultimately the problem that you're
trying to solve i completely agree and i realize that's a little bit controversial
especially in my in my sort of training and role which is all about you know
(04:31):
fairness and inclusivity and never be being apart but actually it's not reality
and it's not helping people get set up for life by having a contribution badge i'm with you,
know yeah well how do we even fall down that sort of route i suppose of like.
Of changing that because i always think like
some of the some of the i call them old school entrepreneurs like i'm in my
(04:54):
30s some of the guys that are in the 50s and 60s that that wasn't even a thing
back then to to have that and it was you know get out there into the world and
realize what what real is like and i feel like that's sort of getting robbed
from the younger generations now It usually is.
I think there's a quote I like to use a lot, which is the top of the mountain
(05:14):
isn't anything without the climb.
Now you'll know that all of your listeners will know that, which is if you could
have told them I could have just handed you that promotion, that paycheck,
that bonus without the work.
Yes, there's a part of you that goes, well, that sounds easy enough,
but it's the feeling of satisfaction.
That's what you're going for. That's what you're hunting for.
(05:35):
And if you're just given that then.
Gosh, what's the relationship you have with actually pride and self-worth and
self-efficacy and the belief that you can do it?
So we have to, I do think we should go back to some of the old fashioned,
you know, if you have like a star chart on your wall for, you know,
(05:55):
the end of the week, if you'd helped out, you got something,
not just you get it as standard.
Now we can, this could absolutely delve into a total rabbit hole because technology plays a big part here.
It's the you know we are completely inept when it comes to waiting and we can
get anything we want immediately our children are not growing up like we are
(06:16):
where we had to wait for the next episode of something to show a week later
you get everything on demand that has actually played into.
Into yeah massively actually because that's something
you know my son has that you know why is
why is this not working why is it and why is it not alone because
we're going for a patch right now mate where there is no wi-fi so
it's tough do you look out the window and count some sheep you know
(06:39):
and it's it's yeah oh I
want to ask you a question on the so when I was a
child I spent my weekends doing what
my parents wanted to do so if that was that my dad was playing rugby we were
all sat by the side of the rugby pitch or if my mum had to go and do a shop
somewhere we were in the back of the car the average parent that I work with
(07:02):
including my own friendship should agree with myself, our weekends revolve around our children,
their parties, their play dates,
their nap times, their routine, whatever.
There had been a very big shift.
And I think that there was a
healthy balance in between, but like most things, it's just gone too far.
(07:22):
Yeah, so I think from my background, I was sort of like, well,
I lived in Hertfordshire, so we predominantly lived in around busy places.
And then we decided to move to the countryside to live a more outdoor lifestyle.
I think we're in the middle of that now, of running around after my son,
(07:44):
over taking him to parties, over doing things here.
Because we've got a large amount
of land here and so i'm me
and my other half nicola we we predominantly try to
look after everything ourself so you know
we've got acres and acres that need cutting so we go
out and cut the fields and it's very
(08:05):
i call it like a you know we have
a big greenhouse we grow our own veg and stuff like that
so he's involved in that side so it's sort of like a
happy medium because he's he's growing strawberries he's
growing raspberries he's he's he's he's growing carrots he's
seeing what happens when you plant a seed and what the
outcome is of that when we're out in the fields he's out
(08:26):
on his quad bike so he's privileged in the respect that he's on
a quad bike he's only four he's on a quad bike and he's racing
it around but i'm on a tractor and i'm chasing him in a tractor he loves that
i'm getting the same job done he's having fun says happy medium of being outdoors
so trying to bridge that gap i think is what we're trying to do i think we're
succeeding in it quite nicely because he's learning so much about the outdoor.
(08:51):
Rather than sort of a privileged environment well i mean what you've just described
is incredibly wholesome and i'm sure all of us would like a bit of that but
it's not reality for most.
And, again, look, if I meet a young adult or teenager who is,
in quotes, entitled, let's say, my first reaction is, well, they haven't entitled themselves yet.
(09:19):
Most usually it's not the child that's in lesser entitlement
cells the parent has entitled them yeah i think
around i think around that i i have a saying that you know
to create generational wealth someone in that bloodline has had to sacrifice
pretty much their entire life to accrue a mass amount of wealth without spending
it without distributing it to then benefit the next generation someone's got
(09:43):
to give it up so yeah i think you're yeah you're right in what.
You're saying so we must and again i think
it's very important i flag i i fail at this too and
and and you know i'm i'm human too but
the things that have worked when i've tested this
are really sitting with
the with the pain when my son is badgering on and
(10:04):
on and on at me and you just want to give in it is
absolutely worth it because they aren't the ones
showing at school gates with you know the latest this
and that and they do value the wholesome activities the
one that you're describing because they are you know they're
so much better yeah i think yeah
i think there's i think if you're aware of it there's ways to tackle
(10:25):
it right you know there's some schools now that have
sort of very good schools where they
have outdoor crafts you know this is
how you make a fire this is sleeving outside these
are the tools that you use things like that and sort of ingrain
it but yeah i suppose you can when you're yeah i
think if you can go go past that right like you're saying if you're sort of
(10:47):
a workaholic you have that guilt of wanting to reward your kids with materialistic
things and you soon go down that that slant so i suppose for me around that
conversation there's people that are aspiring to be wealthy.
What what is the importance of failure if we can drum it into them what what,
do they see it as a bad thing but what what
(11:09):
actually is it okay so first of
all i just just make this far more organic which is
we all fail all the time we fail in our personal relationships with
ourself with our own boundaries with our health with our
work you name it we're failing all the time that's okay
we have to normalize that chat and
what I'm what I really like is
(11:30):
when families of mine sit down at the end of the table
at the end of the day around the dining table and the
conversation instead of how was your day
what did you do well at today day is what did you fail at today
and everybody mom dad whoever's
around that table whoever's a caregiver a parent they they explain what they
(11:51):
failed at and that could be you know what i i said something i shouldn't i hurt
a friend of mine today or or i cheated on a test but everybody has to talk about
it and then say what they learned from it and why they wouldn't do it again,
oh that's interesting that is very interesting.
Yeah, I've never looked at that. And I suppose by doing that,
(12:13):
you normalize failure and also you then see the benefits of failure and how you've overcome that.
You normalize failure, but you also normalize the learning. We're not celebrating
failure in the way of, you know, you should glamorize it.
We're saying if you can learn from it, then it's never a failure if you have learned from it.
Now, the reason why this is important for parents
(12:34):
who are striving to be increasingly successful
or wealthy is that there will be a disparity at
some point between your your child seeing you as what
prominent is the word and they at home
yes your dad or mom or whoever and you're you're that
wholesome figure to them but actually the more successful you
(12:55):
become other people will talk about them in
a certain way and you'll start to see them as this quite high status
person and how on earth could you ever
achieve your own success when you've got a parent like that so
by humanizing yourself and saying yeah i've done
well but i've done well because i have learned from you know these failures
yeah i think that's i'm trying to remember his name actually i can't remember
(13:21):
his name but he's he used to own it he used to own a jet company it's going
to really annoy me now so i'm going to have to know know his name name.
He implemented something really interesting with his child, Joe Rogan.
He was on Joe Rogan and he had David Goggins lived with him. Oh yes, he's wonderful.
(13:43):
Jesse Itzler or Isler, Isler maybe. I think it's, yeah.
He he's got a thing with with his son of even
though he's busy even though he's ultra successful i wouldn't
say maybe he's a billion i think he's in the high millions he
he will try to do something that
is like an adventure or something
(14:05):
like that every three months with his son so they'll go and
hike up a crazy mountain it's
winter it's bleak and you know
i think his son's like 10 or 11 and putting through
that crazy experience of understanding what
what the struggles look like to achieve that and so it's like
grounding his son to show that this is achievable as
(14:27):
a father son relationship and i thought these are
things these are really because no one really tells you how do you
do that when you get to that stage in in your career to
in my opinion to not have what i would call a soft child
that's you know gonna have these issues
later in life if you can harden them up to experience
like these and things and have those high-end accomplishments
(14:49):
where you're saying that they can't they can't get to the
level where they see their their parents by doing
this it's like well hang about here what other 11 year old has gone and climbed
that mountain camped out on the top of the mountain in two days of crazy snow
and pack their kit up and then come back down and they have their own stories
within their own group i mean that's wonderful i think.
(15:13):
I'm always a little bit tentative when I hear these stories.
I think it's amazing, but it's not realistic for the average family.
It may not be possible, or it may just not be what the parent is comfortable doing for themselves.
There are other ways, but I mean, absolutely. They could do Snowden.
It doesn't need to be glamorous by any means. Yeah, you can easily do that.
(15:33):
But how do I put it? The young adults that I work with, the ones who are from the most affluent,
most successful families, The ones who are the most resilient and prepared for
life are the ones whose childhoods better reflected reality.
By that, I mean, yes, they probably didn't need to do any chores.
(15:54):
They still did. They didn't need a budget, so to speak.
They got one. it wasn't a bet they had a very good
understanding of the difference between net worth and self-worth and
i think that's really important you start having those conversations early
and of course that would be
stupid to say they're not linked because as we all know if your net worth increases
yes you're some of your self-worth will increase but they shouldn't be in completely
(16:17):
intrinsically linked yeah yeah no it's a fascinating conversation and we're
also talking about like wealth shame Can you explain a little bit more about that?
What's your thoughts behind wealth shame? What does it entail?
Wealth shame is more commonly cited in multi-generational family wealth,
not so much in first to second generation wealth yet.
(16:43):
So in multi-generational family wealth, let's say you're three plus generations.
The chances are what the original business, unless it was financial,
but still there would have been investments, whatever the original business
was in is probably a business that is now a little controversial.
(17:04):
So it could be oil and industrial plants and things like that are While some
of those are what allowed for mass wealth creation,
and now those family businesses are evolving and trying to invest and moving in different ways,
but sometimes the children who are inheriting that wealth and that business
(17:28):
do not align with the wealth and where it's come from.
They also don't feel that they have done anything. thing, it's a little bit
like survivor's guilt where they think, you know, why me?
Why have I woken up in this house where in, you know.
With all of this wealth when there's when i'm looking at you know
(17:49):
israel palestine on the news how
did i get this yeah i find
that so strange though that they feel that wealth shame surely
it should be if you're
if you're at that stage it should be something along the lines
see i'm so adamant to to build generational
wealth and you know i know that there's there's
(18:10):
that saying i can't remember what it's i think it's like by the third generation
shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations yeah and
it it's either you even they even lose the
wealth or they completely handle
it in a in a poor manner and so my my
sort of thought process is there's gotta
be this there's you gotta be able to put in guidelines rails
(18:34):
you know well targets
to be able to change that there's nothing wrong with let's say
you're a billionaire and you're in third generation and you know
let's say your family did come from plantations and
slave slavery and and that's i
think well we'll fix we'll change it change it
have your have your you can't we can't reverse the past but you can learn from
(18:56):
it and it's like what go out to africa go do volunteering go go go out to those
regions that are struggling get involved in that on that the the the groundwork
and and i would say open Look, I agree,
but I'm right in thinking you're a millennial.
I suppose I am. Yeah, I was born in 91. Yeah. So I understand,
(19:19):
but what you've just said is total millennial.
I'm also a millennial, so I understand, but Z and alpha-gen don't feel that way necessarily.
And I think that's what we have to think about.
Put us in the mindset of them. What do they think like then?
(19:39):
And if I can't relate, that's even more scary that I can't actually relate to
their situation. Well, it's not.
You have a four-year-old, so yes, this is going to come and I'm sure you work
with or maybe there are people that in your life who are in their teen years or younger.
But they're far more socially aware, partly because they can be,
(19:59):
they have the technology to, than previous generations have been at their age.
I mean, I have mentees in my office who are so devastatingly concerned about
the climate in a way that my generation and older generations,
I mean, we are, but not in the same way that they are at that age.
They are so clued up on it. The first thing that my clients do if their family
(20:24):
is investing in a company, or even if they're buying a pair of jeans,
frankly, is they will look up their board.
They will look up who advises them, who heads up that company.
If everybody on there looks the same, is the same background,
the same age, went to the same university, they want nothing to do with it.
And in a way, thank God, it's important that we have people like that,
(20:45):
you know, evolving and moving us forward.
But it's challenging for the older generations.
So, yeah. So you're basically saying that they're very much sort of like ESG focused.
They are green focused.
Yeah, they are. It's not just it's that should be the standard for them.
(21:06):
You should tell them to move to Isle of Man. It's the biosphere of the world, you know.
We live in one of the only carbon neutral countries. Maybe I can relate to that
generation. I don't know.
How's the party scene? Yeah, quite light. Yeah.
(21:28):
There's more seals and cows, I think, than people.
But it's if that's you know well actually when you look at that the the generation
seen if i'm right in saying the next generation is more alcohol-free parties it's not,
yeah zero percent alcohol but it has got to be there's got to be a healthy transition
(21:48):
in in so how do you address that then so these people come to you and they say
look i've come from let's just be as you know as extreme as possible they've
come from your parents made a large amount amount of money from plantations,
they're in this generation now.
What are their struggles and how are you fixing that? Well, first of all, you're just naming it.
(22:09):
Most of the time, the problems aren't being aired. They've never been discussed.
They're not in a really pragmatic way. So you get everyone around the table
and you say, let's talk about it. So number one is air it.
What are the challenges? Give also, the likelihood is, is that give the previous
generation a chance to also defend, not defend, but explain themselves because
(22:30):
they weren't necessarily the people that started the business either.
In whatever industry it may be.
Organizational change takes a long time. And if you're evolving from one industry
to another, that doesn't happen overnight.
So explaining, I think the best thing that these families can do or family businesses
is be more transparent about their vulnerabilities.
(22:51):
Just to say, hey guys, we know that this isn't working, or we know that this has been a problem.
We are not shoving it under the rug. We are going to
address it we're also hiring the right people to address
it because that's a big thing which is if you
have a look every successful person i know
has an has an accountant and a lawyer and
(23:11):
a tax advisor and a maybe a trust that they can call it's on their phone wonderful
you're taking care of your money you're taking care of the legalities around
your money when are you taking care of the humans and how are you doing that
because actually that is a different skill set it doesn't mean that your lawyer
and your accountant aren't wonderful people and human people.
That's not the case at all. But their training and their qualifications are different.
(23:36):
It's important that these people also invest in the right psychological,
organisational psychological change.
All of those, diversity, inclusion, get the right people in for those jobs.
And do you find it a struggle when you try to involve the parents into this discussion?
No, I think a lot of the time, actually, once the young adult has started doing
(23:59):
the work themselves and are bringing home insightful discussions to have,
again, just around the kitchen table, they are far more open.
But yeah, initially, there will be perhaps some resistance.
That is very, very interesting and you know what, for someone that's 33,
it makes me feel so scared for the future because it's true,
(24:22):
maybe I can't relate to it, but I think, you know, and maybe you're right in
saying that a lot of parents aren't, maybe.
As adventurous or i don't know actually i
think quite a lot of high net wealths are the ironmans they
like to do ironman races they like to push themselves physically
but i suppose you do get some that just quite lay back
like to sit on the board like to go on their holidays four or four
(24:45):
five times a year and don't do anything but i think if you i
think there's a very clear cut if you are in that side of
things where you're running marathons or you're pushing yourself from a physical
aspect if you're involving whatever generation the newest generation into that
mindset of pushing the limits and doing it you can't avoid those situations right.
(25:10):
Again but what i'm always fascinated by is that these very successful families
even in this discussion we're talking about these extreme things like which
are great go up a mountain
and have a whirlwind adventure and do a marathon and do an Ironman,
why is it so difficult to sit around a table together and have a conversation
about uncomfortable topics?
(25:31):
That is the number one thing that families who want to survive their wealth need to do.
That's it. Because frankly, anything suppressed eventually becomes sinister as far as I'm concerned.
So if we can get things that are suppressed around open,
worked through, your family's health
and that will impact the wealth and will
(25:53):
impact the business is in far better stead then
would you say your experience is dealing with people that are say third generation
or have you seen let's say throughout your career an
increase in individuals like that are the first that are in their family to
become ultra wealthy then working with them because you know i feel like that's
(26:16):
probably going to happen a lot more now with tech and all these different things yeah.
And yeah i i would say that actually i
find that an interesting aspect because i think that from my experience i've
spoken to about this quite openly that i find it sometimes quite difficult that
been the success that i've achieved
(26:37):
at say 33 that i find no other 33 year year old that I can relate to.
And there are people that are second or third generational wealth,
and I can't relate to them because they haven't had to work all that wealth.
And I find that dynamic very difficult because there's not many people in that circle of.
Mindset i would say that have gone and done it got
(27:00):
the t-shirt i have you experienced more
of those coming into i suppose your
remit i suppose well i think i have two answers to
that one is yes certainly my own consultancy with
parents of sudden wealth sudden wealth syndrome is
i think really what you're talking about and that tends to
(27:20):
be a it may not be that fast but
it could be within let's say 10 years max you've gone
from you know maybe a
working class background to a very affluent lifestyle and
that is it's a cultural shift it's not just
about the money it's about suddenly your life looks very very different
(27:40):
and the people around you perceive you differently so that's
challenging can you just like elaborate
on what is southern wealth syndrome southern wealth
syndrome is in fairness i'm
going to flag myself i don't know what the psychological definition is
but having worked with people who have sudden wealth it is
that they have very quickly amassed huge amounts of
(28:02):
wealth and their life hasn't their
emotional capabilities haven't necessarily caught up with
their current lifestyle so they are they
feel like they're in a sort of a foreign zone far better
definition that's interesting
i've never heard of i've never heard of it so.
You've and and and you've worked with those individuals on on how to handle
(28:28):
that emotional transition like it's always like a lag isn't there it's like
i i call it like a lag it's like it takes a while to catch up with your progression
sometimes like mentally to go oh i'm actually here in Norway.
Yeah, absolutely. But for example, let's take the stories that we hear of, you know, your 21,
23 year old who built an app in their dorm at uni and then within three years
(28:53):
is a multimillionaire, if not billionaire. That.
That would definitely fall within Suddenwell's inventory. How are you dealing with that?
Suddenly, you've gone from maybe having a student loan to having a trust fund set up.
Not sorry, a trust fund. You're setting up your own trust.
You're a beneficiary or you're creating a beneficiary set up.
(29:14):
But sudden wills, if you are, let's say, one of those stories,
the 21, 22-year-old who's at university and you've created an app and suddenly
you've sold it and you're a multimillionaire and you might have gone from having a student loan,
which you set up the app with, and now you have all of this money.
Your lifestyle is hugely different. And the people around you,
even your family, suddenly you're more affluent than your parents.
(29:37):
How do you deal with that?
It's the psychological component that we're really looking at here.
There are plenty of people to help you take care of the money.
There aren't that many people to help you take care of the mind.
It's a very good way of looking at it. There was just one other point earlier
you said about you find a difficultness maybe when people are your age,
(29:59):
but they are second or third gen and they've inherited the wealth.
There is one point to that, which is I think there isn't too much empathy for
that group because frankly,
the media have spun such a wonderful web of making it look like they are all
the rich kids of Instagram and do nothing for it. The reality is quite different.
(30:19):
My experience of those, let's say 33-year-olds who are second-gen or third-gen
is that they really, really want to work and they really want to make their own wealth,
but they are struggling to find their identity within that.
Imagine walking into every room and someone knowing your surname name and deciding
(30:40):
who you are. That's tough.
Yeah so yeah it's also understanding that from an image perspective of how to own that and,
sort of address that i suppose make your yeah make
your own stamp on it i think it's very interesting if we.
Were to sort of like wrap up the conversation on leaving
(31:00):
i think the whole failing side of things i think it's an interesting aspect
what are some what are some simple steps
i suppose that some of these listeners can put
into place put in place to
improve their understanding on their pathway to generate to
creating generational wealth what are these sort of steps you
(31:20):
know potentially would you look at putting in place well firstly
talk about money so many fans who are
creating wealth do not talk about money and they
don't give their children budgets it doesn't really matter
what the number is it's important what that they understand how to
budget so that the first time they're budgeting isn't
with a huge amount aged 18 at
(31:42):
uni because we know how this is going to play out so talk
about money definitely and that's a boundary so
boundaries are important definitely have consequences to
when they break those boundaries and when things go wrong you know
a very important way of parenting i
think is to approach it this way which is calm voice
(32:03):
always follow through always follow through which is
if it's you sam your it's your son yeah what's
his name christopher okay christopher you
know if you if you if you break that again if you scratch daddy's car one more
time darling i love you but there is going to be a consequence to it and this
is going to be it i'm going to remove all your lego for the next two weeks do.
(32:24):
You understand if he does it again okay that's it i'm taking it away and he'll
kick and they'll scream, they'll be upset, but it's gone.
When you do not break, no matter how much you want, now the worst response is.
And we've all done it, we're all human, but which is the big blow-up.
The, I'm furious, how could you have done this? I'm taking everything away.
(32:46):
They're crying, they're upset, you're upset, you've overreacted to some degree.
Then you break your consequence and you don't feel it's through.
So stay calm, strong spine.
But always follow through. And so I think that's really important for failure
is that they feel the consequences of the mistake because if they don't,
you're robbing them of that opportunity to learn.
(33:09):
Yeah. I think it's also very important to understand,
to have those conversations, like I said, around the kitchen table and that
everybody fails, and that's really normal.
Yeah, that's a really interesting one. And then there's the education part,
which is if you are mass affluent or certainly, how do I put it?
(33:32):
If you are putting your child through private school systems,
and that means from primary, secondary, the chances are they will be educated
and socializing with people who sound like them, look like them, go on the same holidays,
wear the same sort of clothes, do the same extracurriculars, et cetera.
(33:53):
That's fine. The problem is, is unless you're giving them a taste of what the
reality is outside of that, when they get to either university or a job,
they have a really hard awakening and And they may say something or may not
conduct themselves in a way that is, you know, it could be deemed tone deaf.
It's not because they mean to and it's not because they're bad intentions.
(34:18):
It's just it's not been their reality. So I think that's really important that
they understand how privilege is perceived and to be very aware of.
I don't think that's psychosomal. And how would you address that then?
How do you address, you know, them understanding they're privileged?
Okay, so there's a really good online wheel called Privilege Wheel.
(34:39):
I would recommend everyone to look at it.
It's a circle and it has everything on it that one could deem as being privileged.
Now, the best way to think of privilege is when you leave your house,
Sam, in the morning, what do you not think about?
What do I not think about? Yeah.
Oh, that's a great question. Yeah.
(34:59):
Well, if you're talking about being privileged, I don't really think about the bills.
You know, there's always that someone caught me out on it, you know,
and I kind of peed me off, to be honest with you. You know, what's the price of a pint of milk?
You know, I recently actually started doing some shopping just to go and be like, what?
(35:21):
You know, what is these prices? Never realized that.
And so i suppose you know from my my side thing is you know i i would say that
but i'm very conscious i'm very aware of i'm very aware of that so i try to mitigate it i suppose,
well so don't don't worry most people actually unless they've done this exercise
(35:41):
don't think of it but the chances are you don't leave your house and this this
isn't necessarily about wealth but you don't think about the color of your skin
you don't think about your sex you don't think about
your nationality your age your
ability the way that you yeah yeah all
of those things so it's becoming a little bit more aware that for some people
(36:03):
you know they do think about those things and they have to and depending where
they are in the world they might have to think about their religion their gender
all of those aspects their sexuality because it could harm them or they could be in danger.
But the one that comes across repeatedly is also just wealth.
If you have money, you likely don't worry about your housing.
(36:26):
You don't worry about paying for your education.
Those things, if you go to uni, there
will always be a set of students who desperately do worry about that.
And it's important that we prepare them to address that and communicate in in an inappropriate way.
(36:47):
Okay, I think they're all fantastic lessons, really. So talk about money,
making sure there's budgets and boundaries, consequences to breaking those boundaries,
calm voices, opportunities to learn, failing around the table.
What did you fail at today and what did you learn from failing? I think it's fantastic.
And then the privileged will, understanding, you know, lessons,
(37:11):
conduct, tone, death, colour of skin, age, gender, bills.
I think it's fantastic. I really appreciate your time on the podcast.
It's been really enjoyable understanding a lot more around wealth failing,
wealth shame, privilege, addressing the new generation of wealth and the things
(37:31):
that concern them. I think it's very, very interesting.
If the listeners want to find out more about what you do or your services,
what's the best place for them to go and visit to find out more? Sure.
So to find out more about Dallington, and we have our curriculum on there and
usually some tips around how to engage in some of these topics,
it's www.dallington.co.
(37:53):
And then my website is jessicamcgawley.com. And that's my personal consultancy.
Amazing. Honestly, thank you so much for your time, Jessica.
I really appreciate it. Okay. Lovely speaking.
Welcome everybody to the Wise Wealth Podcast. We've got an awesome guest on
the show today. I'm going to let her introduce herself.
We're going to be talking about a lot around the mindset, about wealth,
about failing, and I think these are all interesting aspects,
whether you've already made your money in the world or whether or not you're
aspiring to make your money in the world.
So I'll hand over to Jessica. Please give us an introduction about yourself
(00:21):
and let everybody know who you are.
Thanks, Sam. Hi, I'm Jess, Jessica McGawley. I am a psychological consultant,
mediator, and the founder of Dallington.
Dallington is a practice specifically for young adults from multi-generational family businesses.
And we support them as they are growing up, typically aged 16 to 30,
(00:43):
with everything personal and professional.
Awesome. So we were having a brief chat before we pressed record and we were
talking about failure and I suppose how that sort of affects generational wealth.
And I think what we're talking about is probably really valuable.
And that's why I wanted to press the record button.
So let's try to go back to it.
Give us your thought process of the failure side of things within wealth generation
(01:07):
and sort of what your experience is with that.
So I think, you know, promoting failure as a parent is key across the board.
It doesn't matter if it's wealth or not.
Helping your children develop a healthy relationship with failing,
getting back up is the key to developing...
Authentic self-esteem. However, it's particularly difficult and misunderstood
(01:30):
within successful families because typically the first generation wealth creators
will have failed so many times.
I mean, I'm sure you know this, your listeners will know this,
as in all the successes that they have got to will have been because they failed,
learned, failed, learned, and climbed that mountain.
The problem is unwittingly, and we all do it, myself included,
(01:53):
you want to provide the best for your
children and sometimes you feel that the best is giving
them an easy life and comfort and you know nice holidays things like that it
also helps you sometimes offset the guilt of of being so busy and being at work
and that's also important to note the problem with it is what we then get is
(02:15):
you know teenagers young adults in their 20s who have such a bad relationship with failure,
that when something relatively small goes wrong, like not getting your first
choice of university or failing your driving test, and it feels like the end of the world.
So basically, we're robbing our kids, really, of that skill set.
(02:38):
Is that sort of what you're saying? Yeah, absolutely.
None of us want to see, you know, you've got a child, I've got children.
None of us want to see our kids in pain.
The problem is there's a difference between letting them fail and also letting them suffer.
Now, to give you a pinch of salt, because I know that sounds brutal,
but you know when your child falls over in the playground?
(03:00):
And you just pick them back up and you go, right, let's crack on.
And that's good. You want them to do that. But sometimes it does actually matter
that they see the blood, that they hurt their knee and they're a little bit
more careful next time. It doesn't mean that you pander to it.
It's the same with this. When one of the young adults we work with makes a big
mistake, that could be anything from genuinely failing in an exam because they
(03:24):
didn't prep or blowing the budget, whatnot. I always say to the parent, let them feel the pain.
If they have spent their entire uni budget in the first week,
you let them feel that pain and let them eat what all the other students are
eating. Don't come in and save the day.
Otherwise, you'd rob them of the experience of learning.
Yeah and i suppose from from that
(03:47):
aspect why have we why have
we built up this sort of belief or or
judgment that because times are changing
right there's you know there's i'm i'm a massive
advocate for winning or failing and
giving it your best shot but now you get sort of
like contribution badges and
(04:09):
everybody gets everybody gets a sticker when
they join in and i i just just cannot relate to
that i don't understand it and i think it's i think
that is creating ultimately the problem that you're
trying to solve i completely agree and i realize that's a little bit controversial
especially in my in my sort of training and role which is all about you know
(04:31):
fairness and inclusivity and never be being apart but actually it's not reality
and it's not helping people get set up for life by having a contribution badge i'm with you,
know yeah well how do we even fall down that sort of route i suppose of like.
Of changing that because i always think like
some of the some of the i call them old school entrepreneurs like i'm in my
(04:54):
30s some of the guys that are in the 50s and 60s that that wasn't even a thing
back then to to have that and it was you know get out there into the world and
realize what what real is like and i feel like that's sort of getting robbed
from the younger generations now It usually is.
I think there's a quote I like to use a lot, which is the top of the mountain
(05:14):
isn't anything without the climb.
Now you'll know that all of your listeners will know that, which is if you could
have told them I could have just handed you that promotion, that paycheck,
that bonus without the work.
Yes, there's a part of you that goes, well, that sounds easy enough,
but it's the feeling of satisfaction.
That's what you're going for. That's what you're hunting for.
(05:35):
And if you're just given that then.
Gosh, what's the relationship you have with actually pride and self-worth and
self-efficacy and the belief that you can do it?
So we have to, I do think we should go back to some of the old fashioned,
you know, if you have like a star chart on your wall for, you know,
(05:55):
the end of the week, if you'd helped out, you got something,
not just you get it as standard.
Now we can, this could absolutely delve into a total rabbit hole because technology plays a big part here.
It's the you know we are completely inept when it comes to waiting and we can
get anything we want immediately our children are not growing up like we are
(06:16):
where we had to wait for the next episode of something to show a week later
you get everything on demand that has actually played into.
Into yeah massively actually because that's something
you know my son has that you know why is
why is this not working why is it and why is it not alone because
we're going for a patch right now mate where there is no wi-fi so
it's tough do you look out the window and count some sheep you know
(06:39):
and it's it's yeah oh I
want to ask you a question on the so when I was a
child I spent my weekends doing what
my parents wanted to do so if that was that my dad was playing rugby we were
all sat by the side of the rugby pitch or if my mum had to go and do a shop
somewhere we were in the back of the car the average parent that I work with
(07:02):
including my own friendship should agree with myself, our weekends revolve around our children,
their parties, their play dates,
their nap times, their routine, whatever.
There had been a very big shift.
And I think that there was a
healthy balance in between, but like most things, it's just gone too far.
(07:22):
Yeah, so I think from my background, I was sort of like, well,
I lived in Hertfordshire, so we predominantly lived in around busy places.
And then we decided to move to the countryside to live a more outdoor lifestyle.
I think we're in the middle of that now, of running around after my son,
(07:44):
over taking him to parties, over doing things here.
Because we've got a large amount
of land here and so i'm me
and my other half nicola we we predominantly try to
look after everything ourself so you know
we've got acres and acres that need cutting so we go
out and cut the fields and it's very
(08:05):
i call it like a you know we have
a big greenhouse we grow our own veg and stuff like that
so he's involved in that side so it's sort of like a
happy medium because he's he's growing strawberries he's
growing raspberries he's he's he's he's growing carrots he's
seeing what happens when you plant a seed and what the
outcome is of that when we're out in the fields he's out
(08:26):
on his quad bike so he's privileged in the respect that he's on
a quad bike he's only four he's on a quad bike and he's racing
it around but i'm on a tractor and i'm chasing him in a tractor he loves that
i'm getting the same job done he's having fun says happy medium of being outdoors
so trying to bridge that gap i think is what we're trying to do i think we're
succeeding in it quite nicely because he's learning so much about the outdoor.
(08:51):
Rather than sort of a privileged environment well i mean what you've just described
is incredibly wholesome and i'm sure all of us would like a bit of that but
it's not reality for most.
And, again, look, if I meet a young adult or teenager who is,
in quotes, entitled, let's say, my first reaction is, well, they haven't entitled themselves yet.
(09:19):
Most usually it's not the child that's in lesser entitlement
cells the parent has entitled them yeah i think
around i think around that i i have a saying that you know
to create generational wealth someone in that bloodline has had to sacrifice
pretty much their entire life to accrue a mass amount of wealth without spending
it without distributing it to then benefit the next generation someone's got
(09:43):
to give it up so yeah i think you're yeah you're right in what.
You're saying so we must and again i think
it's very important i flag i i fail at this too and
and and you know i'm i'm human too but
the things that have worked when i've tested this
are really sitting with
the with the pain when my son is badgering on and
(10:04):
on and on at me and you just want to give in it is
absolutely worth it because they aren't the ones
showing at school gates with you know the latest this
and that and they do value the wholesome activities the
one that you're describing because they are you know they're
so much better yeah i think yeah
i think there's i think if you're aware of it there's ways to tackle
(10:25):
it right you know there's some schools now that have
sort of very good schools where they
have outdoor crafts you know this is
how you make a fire this is sleeving outside these
are the tools that you use things like that and sort of ingrain
it but yeah i suppose you can when you're yeah i
think if you can go go past that right like you're saying if you're sort of
(10:47):
a workaholic you have that guilt of wanting to reward your kids with materialistic
things and you soon go down that that slant so i suppose for me around that
conversation there's people that are aspiring to be wealthy.
What what is the importance of failure if we can drum it into them what what,
do they see it as a bad thing but what what
(11:09):
actually is it okay so first of
all i just just make this far more organic which is
we all fail all the time we fail in our personal relationships with
ourself with our own boundaries with our health with our
work you name it we're failing all the time that's okay
we have to normalize that chat and
what I'm what I really like is
(11:30):
when families of mine sit down at the end of the table
at the end of the day around the dining table and the
conversation instead of how was your day
what did you do well at today day is what did you fail at today
and everybody mom dad whoever's
around that table whoever's a caregiver a parent they they explain what they
(11:51):
failed at and that could be you know what i i said something i shouldn't i hurt
a friend of mine today or or i cheated on a test but everybody has to talk about
it and then say what they learned from it and why they wouldn't do it again,
oh that's interesting that is very interesting.
Yeah, I've never looked at that. And I suppose by doing that,
(12:13):
you normalize failure and also you then see the benefits of failure and how you've overcome that.
You normalize failure, but you also normalize the learning. We're not celebrating
failure in the way of, you know, you should glamorize it.
We're saying if you can learn from it, then it's never a failure if you have learned from it.
Now, the reason why this is important for parents
(12:34):
who are striving to be increasingly successful
or wealthy is that there will be a disparity at
some point between your your child seeing you as what
prominent is the word and they at home
yes your dad or mom or whoever and you're you're that
wholesome figure to them but actually the more successful you
(12:55):
become other people will talk about them in
a certain way and you'll start to see them as this quite high status
person and how on earth could you ever
achieve your own success when you've got a parent like that so
by humanizing yourself and saying yeah i've done
well but i've done well because i have learned from you know these failures
yeah i think that's i'm trying to remember his name actually i can't remember
(13:21):
his name but he's he used to own it he used to own a jet company it's going
to really annoy me now so i'm going to have to know know his name name.
He implemented something really interesting with his child, Joe Rogan.
He was on Joe Rogan and he had David Goggins lived with him. Oh yes, he's wonderful.
(13:43):
Jesse Itzler or Isler, Isler maybe. I think it's, yeah.
He he's got a thing with with his son of even
though he's busy even though he's ultra successful i wouldn't
say maybe he's a billion i think he's in the high millions he
he will try to do something that
is like an adventure or something
(14:05):
like that every three months with his son so they'll go and
hike up a crazy mountain it's
winter it's bleak and you know
i think his son's like 10 or 11 and putting through
that crazy experience of understanding what
what the struggles look like to achieve that and so it's like
grounding his son to show that this is achievable as
(14:27):
a father son relationship and i thought these are
things these are really because no one really tells you how do you
do that when you get to that stage in in your career to
in my opinion to not have what i would call a soft child
that's you know gonna have these issues
later in life if you can harden them up to experience
like these and things and have those high-end accomplishments
(14:49):
where you're saying that they can't they can't get to the
level where they see their their parents by doing
this it's like well hang about here what other 11 year old has gone and climbed
that mountain camped out on the top of the mountain in two days of crazy snow
and pack their kit up and then come back down and they have their own stories
within their own group i mean that's wonderful i think.
(15:13):
I'm always a little bit tentative when I hear these stories.
I think it's amazing, but it's not realistic for the average family.
It may not be possible, or it may just not be what the parent is comfortable doing for themselves.
There are other ways, but I mean, absolutely. They could do Snowden.
It doesn't need to be glamorous by any means. Yeah, you can easily do that.
(15:33):
But how do I put it? The young adults that I work with, the ones who are from the most affluent,
most successful families, The ones who are the most resilient and prepared for
life are the ones whose childhoods better reflected reality.
By that, I mean, yes, they probably didn't need to do any chores.
(15:54):
They still did. They didn't need a budget, so to speak.
They got one. it wasn't a bet they had a very good
understanding of the difference between net worth and self-worth and
i think that's really important you start having those conversations early
and of course that would be
stupid to say they're not linked because as we all know if your net worth increases
yes you're some of your self-worth will increase but they shouldn't be in completely
(16:17):
intrinsically linked yeah yeah no it's a fascinating conversation and we're
also talking about like wealth shame Can you explain a little bit more about that?
What's your thoughts behind wealth shame? What does it entail?
Wealth shame is more commonly cited in multi-generational family wealth,
not so much in first to second generation wealth yet.
(16:43):
So in multi-generational family wealth, let's say you're three plus generations.
The chances are what the original business, unless it was financial,
but still there would have been investments, whatever the original business
was in is probably a business that is now a little controversial.
(17:04):
So it could be oil and industrial plants and things like that are While some
of those are what allowed for mass wealth creation,
and now those family businesses are evolving and trying to invest and moving in different ways,
but sometimes the children who are inheriting that wealth and that business
(17:28):
do not align with the wealth and where it's come from.
They also don't feel that they have done anything. thing, it's a little bit
like survivor's guilt where they think, you know, why me?
Why have I woken up in this house where in, you know.
With all of this wealth when there's when i'm looking at you know
(17:49):
israel palestine on the news how
did i get this yeah i find
that so strange though that they feel that wealth shame surely
it should be if you're
if you're at that stage it should be something along the lines
see i'm so adamant to to build generational
wealth and you know i know that there's there's
(18:10):
that saying i can't remember what it's i think it's like by the third generation
shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations yeah and
it it's either you even they even lose the
wealth or they completely handle
it in a in a poor manner and so my my
sort of thought process is there's gotta
be this there's you gotta be able to put in guidelines rails
(18:34):
you know well targets
to be able to change that there's nothing wrong with let's say
you're a billionaire and you're in third generation and you know
let's say your family did come from plantations and
slave slavery and and that's i
think well we'll fix we'll change it change it
have your have your you can't we can't reverse the past but you can learn from
(18:56):
it and it's like what go out to africa go do volunteering go go go out to those
regions that are struggling get involved in that on that the the the groundwork
and and i would say open Look, I agree,
but I'm right in thinking you're a millennial.
I suppose I am. Yeah, I was born in 91. Yeah. So I understand,
(19:19):
but what you've just said is total millennial.
I'm also a millennial, so I understand, but Z and alpha-gen don't feel that way necessarily.
And I think that's what we have to think about.
Put us in the mindset of them. What do they think like then?
(19:39):
And if I can't relate, that's even more scary that I can't actually relate to
their situation. Well, it's not.
You have a four-year-old, so yes, this is going to come and I'm sure you work
with or maybe there are people that in your life who are in their teen years or younger.
But they're far more socially aware, partly because they can be,
(19:59):
they have the technology to, than previous generations have been at their age.
I mean, I have mentees in my office who are so devastatingly concerned about
the climate in a way that my generation and older generations,
I mean, we are, but not in the same way that they are at that age.
They are so clued up on it. The first thing that my clients do if their family
(20:24):
is investing in a company, or even if they're buying a pair of jeans,
frankly, is they will look up their board.
They will look up who advises them, who heads up that company.
If everybody on there looks the same, is the same background,
the same age, went to the same university, they want nothing to do with it.
And in a way, thank God, it's important that we have people like that,
(20:45):
you know, evolving and moving us forward.
But it's challenging for the older generations.
So, yeah. So you're basically saying that they're very much sort of like ESG focused.
They are green focused.
Yeah, they are. It's not just it's that should be the standard for them.
(21:06):
You should tell them to move to Isle of Man. It's the biosphere of the world, you know.
We live in one of the only carbon neutral countries. Maybe I can relate to that
generation. I don't know.
How's the party scene? Yeah, quite light. Yeah.
(21:28):
There's more seals and cows, I think, than people.
But it's if that's you know well actually when you look at that the the generation
seen if i'm right in saying the next generation is more alcohol-free parties it's not,
yeah zero percent alcohol but it has got to be there's got to be a healthy transition
(21:48):
in in so how do you address that then so these people come to you and they say
look i've come from let's just be as you know as extreme as possible they've
come from your parents made a large amount amount of money from plantations,
they're in this generation now.
What are their struggles and how are you fixing that? Well, first of all, you're just naming it.
(22:09):
Most of the time, the problems aren't being aired. They've never been discussed.
They're not in a really pragmatic way. So you get everyone around the table
and you say, let's talk about it. So number one is air it.
What are the challenges? Give also, the likelihood is, is that give the previous
generation a chance to also defend, not defend, but explain themselves because
(22:30):
they weren't necessarily the people that started the business either.
In whatever industry it may be.
Organizational change takes a long time. And if you're evolving from one industry
to another, that doesn't happen overnight.
So explaining, I think the best thing that these families can do or family businesses
is be more transparent about their vulnerabilities.
(22:51):
Just to say, hey guys, we know that this isn't working, or we know that this has been a problem.
We are not shoving it under the rug. We are going to
address it we're also hiring the right people to address
it because that's a big thing which is if you
have a look every successful person i know
has an has an accountant and a lawyer and
(23:11):
a tax advisor and a maybe a trust that they can call it's on their phone wonderful
you're taking care of your money you're taking care of the legalities around
your money when are you taking care of the humans and how are you doing that
because actually that is a different skill set it doesn't mean that your lawyer
and your accountant aren't wonderful people and human people.
That's not the case at all. But their training and their qualifications are different.
(23:36):
It's important that these people also invest in the right psychological,
organisational psychological change.
All of those, diversity, inclusion, get the right people in for those jobs.
And do you find it a struggle when you try to involve the parents into this discussion?
No, I think a lot of the time, actually, once the young adult has started doing
(23:59):
the work themselves and are bringing home insightful discussions to have,
again, just around the kitchen table, they are far more open.
But yeah, initially, there will be perhaps some resistance.
That is very, very interesting and you know what, for someone that's 33,
it makes me feel so scared for the future because it's true,
(24:22):
maybe I can't relate to it, but I think, you know, and maybe you're right in
saying that a lot of parents aren't, maybe.
As adventurous or i don't know actually i
think quite a lot of high net wealths are the ironmans they
like to do ironman races they like to push themselves physically
but i suppose you do get some that just quite lay back
like to sit on the board like to go on their holidays four or four
(24:45):
five times a year and don't do anything but i think if you i
think there's a very clear cut if you are in that side of
things where you're running marathons or you're pushing yourself from a physical
aspect if you're involving whatever generation the newest generation into that
mindset of pushing the limits and doing it you can't avoid those situations right.
(25:10):
Again but what i'm always fascinated by is that these very successful families
even in this discussion we're talking about these extreme things like which
are great go up a mountain
and have a whirlwind adventure and do a marathon and do an Ironman,
why is it so difficult to sit around a table together and have a conversation
about uncomfortable topics?
(25:31):
That is the number one thing that families who want to survive their wealth need to do.
That's it. Because frankly, anything suppressed eventually becomes sinister as far as I'm concerned.
So if we can get things that are suppressed around open,
worked through, your family's health
and that will impact the wealth and will
(25:53):
impact the business is in far better stead then
would you say your experience is dealing with people that are say third generation
or have you seen let's say throughout your career an
increase in individuals like that are the first that are in their family to
become ultra wealthy then working with them because you know i feel like that's
(26:16):
probably going to happen a lot more now with tech and all these different things yeah.
And yeah i i would say that actually i
find that an interesting aspect because i think that from my experience i've
spoken to about this quite openly that i find it sometimes quite difficult that
been the success that i've achieved
(26:37):
at say 33 that i find no other 33 year year old that I can relate to.
And there are people that are second or third generational wealth,
and I can't relate to them because they haven't had to work all that wealth.
And I find that dynamic very difficult because there's not many people in that circle of.
Mindset i would say that have gone and done it got
(27:00):
the t-shirt i have you experienced more
of those coming into i suppose your
remit i suppose well i think i have two answers to
that one is yes certainly my own consultancy with
parents of sudden wealth sudden wealth syndrome is
i think really what you're talking about and that tends to
(27:20):
be a it may not be that fast but
it could be within let's say 10 years max you've gone
from you know maybe a
working class background to a very affluent lifestyle and
that is it's a cultural shift it's not just
about the money it's about suddenly your life looks very very different
(27:40):
and the people around you perceive you differently so that's
challenging can you just like elaborate
on what is southern wealth syndrome southern wealth
syndrome is in fairness i'm
going to flag myself i don't know what the psychological definition is
but having worked with people who have sudden wealth it is
that they have very quickly amassed huge amounts of
(28:02):
wealth and their life hasn't their
emotional capabilities haven't necessarily caught up with
their current lifestyle so they are they
feel like they're in a sort of a foreign zone far better
definition that's interesting
i've never heard of i've never heard of it so.
You've and and and you've worked with those individuals on on how to handle
(28:28):
that emotional transition like it's always like a lag isn't there it's like
i i call it like a lag it's like it takes a while to catch up with your progression
sometimes like mentally to go oh i'm actually here in Norway.
Yeah, absolutely. But for example, let's take the stories that we hear of, you know, your 21,
23 year old who built an app in their dorm at uni and then within three years
(28:53):
is a multimillionaire, if not billionaire. That.
That would definitely fall within Suddenwell's inventory. How are you dealing with that?
Suddenly, you've gone from maybe having a student loan to having a trust fund set up.
Not sorry, a trust fund. You're setting up your own trust.
You're a beneficiary or you're creating a beneficiary set up.
(29:14):
But sudden wills, if you are, let's say, one of those stories,
the 21, 22-year-old who's at university and you've created an app and suddenly
you've sold it and you're a multimillionaire and you might have gone from having a student loan,
which you set up the app with, and now you have all of this money.
Your lifestyle is hugely different. And the people around you,
even your family, suddenly you're more affluent than your parents.
(29:37):
How do you deal with that?
It's the psychological component that we're really looking at here.
There are plenty of people to help you take care of the money.
There aren't that many people to help you take care of the mind.
It's a very good way of looking at it. There was just one other point earlier
you said about you find a difficultness maybe when people are your age,
(29:59):
but they are second or third gen and they've inherited the wealth.
There is one point to that, which is I think there isn't too much empathy for
that group because frankly,
the media have spun such a wonderful web of making it look like they are all
the rich kids of Instagram and do nothing for it. The reality is quite different.
(30:19):
My experience of those, let's say 33-year-olds who are second-gen or third-gen
is that they really, really want to work and they really want to make their own wealth,
but they are struggling to find their identity within that.
Imagine walking into every room and someone knowing your surname name and deciding
(30:40):
who you are. That's tough.
Yeah so yeah it's also understanding that from an image perspective of how to own that and,
sort of address that i suppose make your yeah make
your own stamp on it i think it's very interesting if we.
Were to sort of like wrap up the conversation on leaving
(31:00):
i think the whole failing side of things i think it's an interesting aspect
what are some what are some simple steps
i suppose that some of these listeners can put
into place put in place to
improve their understanding on their pathway to generate to
creating generational wealth what are these sort of steps you
(31:20):
know potentially would you look at putting in place well firstly
talk about money so many fans who are
creating wealth do not talk about money and they
don't give their children budgets it doesn't really matter
what the number is it's important what that they understand how to
budget so that the first time they're budgeting isn't
with a huge amount aged 18 at
(31:42):
uni because we know how this is going to play out so talk
about money definitely and that's a boundary so
boundaries are important definitely have consequences to
when they break those boundaries and when things go wrong you know
a very important way of parenting i
think is to approach it this way which is calm voice
(32:03):
always follow through always follow through which is
if it's you sam your it's your son yeah what's
his name christopher okay christopher you
know if you if you if you break that again if you scratch daddy's car one more
time darling i love you but there is going to be a consequence to it and this
is going to be it i'm going to remove all your lego for the next two weeks do.
(32:24):
You understand if he does it again okay that's it i'm taking it away and he'll
kick and they'll scream, they'll be upset, but it's gone.
When you do not break, no matter how much you want, now the worst response is.
And we've all done it, we're all human, but which is the big blow-up.
The, I'm furious, how could you have done this? I'm taking everything away.
(32:46):
They're crying, they're upset, you're upset, you've overreacted to some degree.
Then you break your consequence and you don't feel it's through.
So stay calm, strong spine.
But always follow through. And so I think that's really important for failure
is that they feel the consequences of the mistake because if they don't,
you're robbing them of that opportunity to learn.
(33:09):
Yeah. I think it's also very important to understand,
to have those conversations, like I said, around the kitchen table and that
everybody fails, and that's really normal.
Yeah, that's a really interesting one. And then there's the education part,
which is if you are mass affluent or certainly, how do I put it?
(33:32):
If you are putting your child through private school systems,
and that means from primary, secondary, the chances are they will be educated
and socializing with people who sound like them, look like them, go on the same holidays,
wear the same sort of clothes, do the same extracurriculars, et cetera.
(33:53):
That's fine. The problem is, is unless you're giving them a taste of what the
reality is outside of that, when they get to either university or a job,
they have a really hard awakening and And they may say something or may not
conduct themselves in a way that is, you know, it could be deemed tone deaf.
It's not because they mean to and it's not because they're bad intentions.
(34:18):
It's just it's not been their reality. So I think that's really important that
they understand how privilege is perceived and to be very aware of.
I don't think that's psychosomal. And how would you address that then?
How do you address, you know, them understanding they're privileged?
Okay, so there's a really good online wheel called Privilege Wheel.
(34:39):
I would recommend everyone to look at it.
It's a circle and it has everything on it that one could deem as being privileged.
Now, the best way to think of privilege is when you leave your house,
Sam, in the morning, what do you not think about?
What do I not think about? Yeah.
Oh, that's a great question. Yeah.
(34:59):
Well, if you're talking about being privileged, I don't really think about the bills.
You know, there's always that someone caught me out on it, you know,
and I kind of peed me off, to be honest with you. You know, what's the price of a pint of milk?
You know, I recently actually started doing some shopping just to go and be like, what?
(35:21):
You know, what is these prices? Never realized that.
And so i suppose you know from my my side thing is you know i i would say that
but i'm very conscious i'm very aware of i'm very aware of that so i try to mitigate it i suppose,
well so don't don't worry most people actually unless they've done this exercise
(35:41):
don't think of it but the chances are you don't leave your house and this this
isn't necessarily about wealth but you don't think about the color of your skin
you don't think about your sex you don't think about
your nationality your age your
ability the way that you yeah yeah all
of those things so it's becoming a little bit more aware that for some people
(36:03):
you know they do think about those things and they have to and depending where
they are in the world they might have to think about their religion their gender
all of those aspects their sexuality because it could harm them or they could be in danger.
But the one that comes across repeatedly is also just wealth.
If you have money, you likely don't worry about your housing.
(36:26):
You don't worry about paying for your education.
Those things, if you go to uni, there
will always be a set of students who desperately do worry about that.
And it's important that we prepare them to address that and communicate in in an inappropriate way.
(36:47):
Okay, I think they're all fantastic lessons, really. So talk about money,
making sure there's budgets and boundaries, consequences to breaking those boundaries,
calm voices, opportunities to learn, failing around the table.
What did you fail at today and what did you learn from failing? I think it's fantastic.
And then the privileged will, understanding, you know, lessons,
(37:11):
conduct, tone, death, colour of skin, age, gender, bills.
I think it's fantastic. I really appreciate your time on the podcast.
It's been really enjoyable understanding a lot more around wealth failing,
wealth shame, privilege, addressing the new generation of wealth and the things
(37:31):
that concern them. I think it's very, very interesting.
If the listeners want to find out more about what you do or your services,
what's the best place for them to go and visit to find out more? Sure.
So to find out more about Dallington, and we have our curriculum on there and
usually some tips around how to engage in some of these topics,
it's www.dallington.co.
(37:53):
And then my website is jessicamcgawley.com. And that's my personal consultancy.
Amazing. Honestly, thank you so much for your time, Jessica.
I really appreciate it. Okay. Lovely speaking.
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