98: Hiring For Your Small Business- Contractors, Employees, & AI with Jamie Van Cuyk

Whether it is your first or fifth hire in your business, all of the options can be overwhelming. What is the difference between an independent contractor and an employee? Which is appropriate for which situation? As an owner, you can’t do it all if you want to grow or scale your business. Join Business Coach,...

Source

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to the women's business workshop podcast. This
is Robin Walker, your host and business coach.
I have a and for helping entrepreneurs bridge
the gap between being experts in their field
and building a successful and rewarding business.
Do you want to learn more about how
to be a confident and intentional business owner
and how to stay on task and on

(00:22):
track
Join me in the impact business Circle Mastermind
this quarter. It is the accountability and business
coaching you have been missing.
Go to women's business workshop dot com slash
impact.
I've have had a handful of you reach
out with questions about hiring in your business.
Specifically about whether you should hire an employee

(00:42):
or a contractor
and what tasks they could be doing.
Today, I'm excited to have Jamie Van on
the podcast.
Jamie spoke at my conference about hiring, and
she was also a member of our impact
Mastermind group. So I know her very well,
and I knew she would be the perfect
person for this topic. So whether you're on
your first or your fifth hire, listening to

(01:04):
learn more about hiring smarter as a business
owner.
Jamie Van is our guest today, and she
is the owner and lead consultant of growing
your team. She is an expert in hiring
and onboarding teams within small businesses.
Trying from over 15 years of leadership experience,
Jamie empowers women business owners and leaders to

(01:25):
expand their unique businesses
by teaching them to master the hiring process.
By learning the dynamics of each company and
their specific needs, Jamie provides bespoke hiring frameworks
and comprehensive guidance that helps women entrepreneurs gain
the confidence to hire like a pro. Hi,
Jamie. Welcome to the podcast.
Hi, Robin. Thank you so much for having

(01:46):
me back. Yes. I'm excited to see you.
It's been a few years since the last
time you were on the podcast, and I've
had some requests about hiring questions, so I
knew you were the right person for the
job. So tell us a little bit about
to do for people when it comes to
hiring.
Yeah. So I am the owner of growing

(02:07):
your team. I actually think last time I
on the podcast was It was years ago.
So before I branded,
grow your team, we help small business owners
gain the confidence to hire like a pro.
So we do a lot of hiring,
guidance and education, so that way people really
understand the hiring process. They understand who they
should be adding to their team.
How to delegate what those positions should look

(02:29):
like and how to find the right person,
we also do offer full service recruiting, So
for the people that say, Alright. I got
it. I understand what to do, but I
have reached a point where this should be
on my plate anymore. Can you help us
and we'll we'll help them because yes, we
are all about
del
because we tend to hold, especially as women
business owners too much on our plates. So

(02:51):
we like to empower people to delegate and
get more off your plate So that way,
you have time to focus on what you
actually need to focus on within your business
instead of trying to do it all.
Sure. And I see a big difference
between that first hire. That's a huge leap
for small business owners when you've been a
solo and on your own and then all

(03:11):
of a sudden, you're trying to decide what
tasks you could delegate and you'd be willing
to let go of control. But then I
also see it on the other end, you
have maybe a couple part time contractors or
employees, and then you're really looking
to scale. So listeners, whether this is your
your first hire or you've been doing it
for years

(03:32):
keep listening because we're gonna have a lot
of good good information for you on making
a better hire, let's say. And I think
that's such a great point that you bring
up because there's a lot of people that
will talk to Like, oh I have a
team, so I am good at this del
anything. I got it down. And then we'll
dive into things and realize,
yes, they're good at being willing to delegate

(03:53):
things, but are they del the right things.
And are they holding too much responsibility
to the... On their own plate that maybe
they're del the execution level, but they're still
holding on to all the management, all the
strategy, all the... Everything that's those higher level
position. So if you think of a large
corporate company,
you have all these different layers of management,
and they're each serving a purpose. They're each

(04:15):
taking a level of responsibility
off that Ceo's plate.
And in small businesses, like we're afraid to
sometimes add those levels.
Or most of the businesses I work with
have anywhere from 1 to 10 employees, but
I once worked with a 200 person percent
organization where the Ceo,
was still holding on to too much of
that executive level responsibility

(04:36):
herself. And with working together, we split her
role into 3
full time
roles. Full time executive leadership roles because she...
She was like, oh, I got this. I
have a 200 person team. I know how
to delegate,
but she wasn't willing at that point in
time to delegate
the strategic thinking that high level thinking, and

(04:57):
she was holding it all on her own,
and it was really weighing her down.
No wonder. We are so tired.
Right it's weird
I mean, bigger small business, it went it's
your own, and it's your baby, and this
is you know, my business, this pays my
bills,
it's so hard to let go of those

(05:18):
higher level tasks.
Yes.
It just feels like so much is on
the line. But none of us want to
be a bad boss.
We've all been the employee at some point
in our life, most most entrepreneurs.
And being a boss being in charge is
totally different.
It is. It's very different. And I think
that feeling of we're afraid to be a

(05:39):
bad boss is,
The reality of, yes, we're gonna make mistakes
at times. We're gonna say things to an
employee that we're gonna be like, oh my
god, why did I say that? If you'd
even think about being a parent. No 1
wants to be a bad parent, but yes,
there are sometimes that we snap at our
children. There sometimes we reflect back and we're
like,
okay. I could have handled that differently and
better. So the reality is Yes. We are

(05:59):
gonna screw up when we're a leader at
times when we're managing our teams at times.
We're not looking to be perfect bosses.
We're just looking to be able to kinda
self reflect and understand what we're doing. That's
impacting our team positively and negatively and then
being willing to focus on and change those
behaviors that we might be negatively impacting our

(06:20):
team so we can create a positive environment
for everybody.
Sure. A lot of our listeners are small
business owners or solo. So they do have
either 0 employees or I would say maybe
to 10 depending if they're a retail location
or have some service providers underneath them. And
a big question that does come up is

(06:41):
should I hire them as an employee or
should I hire them as an independent contractor?
And I feel like there's a lot of
gray
area?
Did let's just start with that. What's the
difference between an independent contractor and an employee?
Yes.
So before we start, just 1 of the
things I wanna make perfectly clear is I
am not a lawyer or anything like that

(07:03):
where, you know, I can tell you exactly
exactly what to do. So everything that we
shared today is just information to guide you
to either making the right decision for your
business or guide you to understand that you
need to talk to a professional who is
highly knowledgeable in this area. So if you
fall into the gray area,
talk to a lawyer or someone that can

(07:24):
really help you make the right decision for
your business.
But independent contractors and employees is just kinda
that basic level. They are
both people that do work for your business,
but they're different roles. And the easiest way
to look at it is an employee is
someone who works for your business. An independent
contractor is another business,

(07:45):
even if they're a business of 1, they
are another business that you are hiring
to do work for your business. So they
are not a part of your business, they
are another business. Or for your house work,
you hire that plumber to come fix something.
Or those things. They are other businesses that
you are hiring
to do work for you, but they're not
a part of your organization. They are just

(08:07):
someone who's doing work for your organization. So
that's the simplest way to look at this
is an employee is a part of your
organization. A contractor is another business
that you're working with to produce something.
I think that is very clear. That's very
helpful, Jamie. Thank you. So where do you
see the gray area?

(08:27):
So the great area is sometimes with those
roles where were, like, well, I could hire
an employee for this,
or I could have an independent factor. Do
I need someone on my payroll
or is this an area where it's okay
to hire another business to perform these services
or whatever it is for your business.
And the reason why there's a lot of

(08:49):
gray area there is there are a lot
of roles or responsibilities within an organization that
could go either way. There's some positions and
the responsibilities and everything it's where it's gonna
be very clear. If you're running a retail
location and you need employee that's going to
be there from open to close or a
set amount of hours,
that person needs to be an employee. You

(09:10):
are setting the expectation of when they need
to be there. They need... You know, they
don't have... They don't have a choice. You
know, it's either you do this and you
have your job or you don't. There's no
choice. You are setting the rules. You were
setting the guidelines, you need someone physically there
at that set time, you know, whatever that
schedule is that you're putting out.
There's other roles where they could always be

(09:31):
contractor roles, where you don't need someone on
your your payroll. For example, you once again
have a physical space and you have cleaners
that are coming in once a week.
That could make perfect sense for a cleaning
to come in and provide those services because
you don't need those people to be a
part of your organization.
The gray areas with those roles where it's

(09:52):
like, it it could go either way. Do
you need an employee? Do not? It's not...
It's not 100 percent clear in different businesses
could use different types of team members for
that same set of tasks and responsibilities.
It just that as a matter of How
do you structure it to make sure you're
staying on the right side of things?

(10:13):
Sure. I could see, like a marketing role,
perhaps being in the great area, whether you're
higher someone to do your marketing all the
time. Within your business, they're doing your social
media, your graphics or
are you hiring a marketing company
that will then have a contract with you
for maybe how many hours they're willing to

(10:33):
give per month or I I think retain
then to end up feeling a little similar
to an employee, and I've seen people struggle
with that as well. I'm giving you this
many hours a month.
But I get to choose when I'm doing
them where I'm doing them versus I'm giving
you this many hours a month, but I
am literally in the office. From the time

(10:55):
you tell me to show up till the
time you tell me to leave. Is that
gap a difference between Yeah. Yep. That's a
great example in something that. That's very clear.
A small business who doesn't necessarily need a
full time marketing team member could go either
way. You could have that part time team
member that is coming to your office or
even in a remote capacity and giving you,

(11:17):
let's say, 10 hours a week. But they're
your employee. So you are dictating
when they work, the tools that they're using,
you're setting them up in your systems,
you're doing all these things that to set
them up as an employee. We're a contractor,
yeah, It's a little bit more kinda fluid
the way you work with them. So at
the end of the month, you might still

(11:37):
be paying them for 10 hours worth of
work. That's their cap. They can't go over
that without approval.
But
you're just really saying, here's the end product
that I need from you.
And this is the date that it needs
to be done by. Anything else to get
from a to z is up to you.
You wanna work at midnight grapes.
You wanna use

(11:58):
photoshop and set a Can. Great. All I
need is a graphic from you at the
end. I don't care what system you do
it in. You are just setting with them.
The end
expectation to be achieved,
they have everything else that they need in
between. Now so there's probably gonna be a
lot of things where it's like, you know,
you have that communication system with that contractor
that it's, like, here's what I'm giving you.

(12:18):
Here's what I need this month. They then
produce the end product. And there's very little
communication in between. With an employee, but there's
gonna be that that more, there's going to
be that...
Like You said, that kinda that control
with a contractor, the contractors typically all always
setting their pricing. It's like, okay. You want
10 hours from me Here's my package for
10 hours. Here's what I charge for 10

(12:39):
hours. Where an employee you set the hourly
rate. You set the salary. And, yes, they
can come and negotiate, but there have more
control over that than with contractor.
And the contractor is invoicing you at the
end of the month or however, often for
their services
versus as an employee is going through your

(13:00):
you're not sending them a check without some
kind of invoice, I would assume. Right.
Yep. Yeah. So with that, that's like, 1
of the things that that does
differentiate the 2 is with a contractor
they're supposed to be sending you an invoice.
So with an employee,
technically if it's an hourly employee, you should
have some sort of system set up to
show that, hey, I work 5 hours this

(13:21):
week when I was supposed to work 5
hours a week, because you're supposed to track
it and mostly tracking it for
overtime loss. So if they go over
the 40 hours
or whatever it is, because some states are
a little different that you're paying them for
over overtime when they hit that over overtime.
So you're still supposed to have some sort
of tracking there. With a contractor, yes. They're
supposed be sending you an invoice. It's supposed
to be that I don't pay this contractor

(13:43):
until an invoice is received. We're an employee
you're paying them on the cadence that you're
paying all the all the employees.
Do you want to learn more about how
to be a confident and intentional business owner
and how to stay on task and on
track.
Join me in the impact business Circle mastermind
this quarter. It is the accountability and business

(14:06):
coaching you have been missing.
Go to women's business workshop dot com slash
impact.
What are some rules that you see... Small
business owners, maybe online or service providers
where do you see them using contractors that
feels like a really good fit?
So I think contractors for small businesses,

(14:29):
sometimes the things that are really good fit
are the marketing roles when they are just
that basic execution role, and you can hire
someone that you can send that list of
what you need. They're gonna deliver it because
they know what to do. They know how
to do it. You're just saying. Here's what
I need. Here's the deadline. They they got
everything.
A lot of those roles where I would
say they're their part time roles that are

(14:50):
not client facing.
That is 1 of the things where I
think
could some client facing roles be contractors?
Yes, but I think a lot of times
for a lot of businesses, client facing roles
should be employees.
And we can go into that a little
bit more, But that's 1 of the things
that I think kinda is that thing where...
You most likely want that to be an
employee. Anything that's on the back end that

(15:13):
doesn't necessarily have to be done within business
hours
or every day. So for example, could be
your accounting and bookkeeping.
For a lot of businesses, those are task
that, okay. Maybe we reconcile our transactions once
a week, For some businesses, it's once a
month. You don't need someone that's necessarily there
during business hours to do it. It just

(15:35):
needs to be done by a certain time.
Where then, you know, some other roles are,
like, let's talk about your customer service roles.
If you run a business where people are
gonna be calling in to place orders or,
yeah, ask questions or things like that, You
need to make sure that there's someone answering
those that phone call. You need to make
sure there's someone answering those emails. And if

(15:56):
you're gonna tell your customers that you're available,
your teams available from 9 to 5,
Monday through Friday. Well there needs to be
someone available, 9 to 5, Monday through Friday.
So those are things where it's, like, soon
as you're setting that time restriction around it.
This has to be done during those hours.
That's 1 is most likely an employee. So
I think with a lot of small businesses

(16:18):
If you're going for part time,
it doesn't necessarily need to be done on
a consistent daily basis,
almost any role can be a contractor rule.
It's it's that more that thing of it
needs to be done. Every day. It needs
to be done. Always within this, like, this
time. There's no flexibility. You have to be
available

(16:38):
and
those full time roles that really need to
get pushed more to that employee side.
You made the comment Robin about online businesses
versus kind of the... That brick and mortar
business.
There's a lot of things Even if you're
doing obviously, brick Mortar if you're running a
retail store or things like that where people
are constant, your customers are constantly coming in,

(16:59):
that's a little different than if you're running,
let's say a service type business where you
have an office,
but you're really not seeing customers there at
your office. You're going out in the field
or you're handling everything remotely. But
remote businesses,
lean a little bit more towards independent contractors
because if you're running a remote business, you
understand flexibility. You understands because you do it

(17:21):
yourself that I don't need this done 9
to 5. I don't need someone physically next
to me to do this. We're a lot
of times if you've always been running an
in person business even if it's just you
going to an office and maybe you have
an admin or someone that they're... That's there
with you. You're kinda used to and more
comfortable to that with having people physically there
in the office. So it's it's lot of

(17:42):
those things. It's just that mindset of remote
businesses. We're we're okay with that kind of
that flexibility that contractors
require because we're used to that ourselves. We'd
like to create our businesses around that ourselves.
Where the brick and mortar, we tend... They
tend to just naturally have a little bit
more of that structure that they like. Sure.
I do have a lot of listeners

(18:03):
in this certain category and you had mentioned
client facing. So I'd love to touch on
the the brick and mortar space
that is still a service provider
and it could be a hair salon or
a counseling office or maybe massage therapy.
Is there a space for those service providers
to be independent contractors

(18:26):
if, you know, you hear of Salons where
you rent your chair
bring in your own clients,
you're kind of, like, leasing space I would
suppose. Yeah. But I'm guessing there's still some
oversight as far as
what type of people you're bringing into this
space because there is a brand that they're
trying to

(18:46):
stay consistent with as far as what you're
wearing or what type of services you're provide,
I would guess that gets pretty gray.
Yeah. Those are some of the positions where
it's... You're operating a lot in that gray
area, And you have to be very clear
on
what you're doing and how you're treating people
in order to make sure you're staying on
the right side of the laws.

(19:07):
If you look at it, look, let's talk
about therapists. Because I think that's a great
example. Most therapists are independent contractors. They're are
not employees of the organization that they're under.
And with that,
the therapists are typically,
and it's the same types with hair salons
and things like that are typically kind of,
like, renting space, and there might be guidelines.
So it might be

(19:28):
Okay. If you're a therapist,
these are the hours
where this office space is available to you.
These are the things that we provide you
because you're renting an office space here.
There's also those guidelines sometimes along lines of
you need to see a minimum of x
amount of clients per month in order to
continue qualifying for this office space. Or where

(19:49):
there's a minimum payout. So it could be
some... There's
organizations that set things up completely differently,
some they take a percentage of what that
contractor is getting from their clients. So it
might be that, okay. Well, you need to
see x amount of clients per month in
order to be able to pay out what
you're required to pay out. Where there's other
ones it's, like, you rent a chair for

(20:10):
or an office space for x amount dollars
per month.
We don't care if you see clients or
not. You're always required to pay that out.
Type that. So the there's different rules for
different spaces.
There are some things where you have to
make sure that that you're just following
the rules.
So you can set code conduct rules to
say in order to use our space, these

(20:30):
are the things that you have to follow.
So for example, I finally after years and
years moved out of my home office and
have an office space myself because I just
like, I need to stop being home 20
47I
like having the option, but I need to
be out of my house 24 7. And
when I was looking at different spaces, there's
different off like just renting an office space.

(20:50):
Like, I'm not in... My name's necessarily associated
with the brand of the company that owns
the building and everything. It's just an office
space, but there's rules I have to follow
in order to be able to continue with
my lease. So it's kind of some of
the things like that with contractors. So you
can set up rules of conduct that they
have to follow. There are some office buildings
out there that require.
Business formal dress because they want that that

(21:11):
look when you enter to their office or
things like that. So there's things through those
rules you can put in place. They're kinda
of that code contact rules of in order
to use this space. This is what you
have to follow. Where that contractor could then
say, yes, this is the right place for
me to have my business.
Or they can say, no. This isn't the
right place for me to have my business.
I'm gonna go down to that other place
down the street where I can rent to

(21:32):
chair or I can see my clients or
wherever it is. Because it fits my business
better. So it's that contractor has that choice
of whether they decide that, yes, This is
a place for me or not.
With it, let's talk about the hair salon.
You can sit there and say,
okay,
we as the company that bringing in the
independent contractors own the building. So we're saying

(21:54):
that front door is going to be unlocked,
and we're gonna... As the the main company,
have the receptionist that's there that's gonna greet
clients, but it's only going to be from
8AM to 8PM.
So those are the... You can only see
clients during those hours. Now that contractor can
decide,
okay. Do I wanna see clients then entire
8AM to 8PM, 3 days a week and

(22:14):
be done, do I wanna see clients 7
days a week and have a much shorter
time. I'm only gonna see clients from 4
to 8PM.
You know, so the were they have a
little bit more flexibility of when do I
use that chair?
Inside the hours that are available,
where
it's completely different and you probably need an
employee if you wanna sit there and say,
you must be available for appointments

(22:35):
from 8AM to 8PM, Monday through Friday. You
must do this. You must do that. And
when you start doing do those things where
it's like, they don't feel like they're in
control of their own business, that's when that's
kind of really pushing it to the employee.
So you need to make sure that even
though you're setting the guidelines so that independent
contractor
is still in charge of their own business

(22:56):
that they have the ability to to dictate
what they do, when they do it, how
they do it, their price structure,
so it could be with their price structure
you say, hey, we're gonna take 50 dollars
from every client you see, well then as
an independent contractor, I get to charge decide
how much I charge a client. Do I
charge 55 dollars. So I'm am personally only
making 5 dollars from seeing that client why

(23:17):
I pay out 50? Or do I charge
a hundred dollars. So they get 50 percent,
I get 50 percent. Sue that contractor gets
to decide, it's completely different than if that
that,
company says, okay. If you wanna share here
at our practice or you want this office,
you must charge a hundred dollars.
And then from that hundred dollars, we take
50 and you get 50.

(23:38):
It's no. Like, you can dictate how much
you're gonna take from each client they see,
but you can't dictate how much they charge.
And there's a lot of things. Like, if
you go into some salons, you see stylist
a,
her price structure might be slightly different than
stylist b. And, you know, there might be
a starting at
for their salon, but a and b stylist
get to dictate what they charge for that

(24:00):
service. I keep thinking of the word agency
as you've been talking that it's a lot
about how much the service provider, how much
agency they have over their decisions over their
time,
how they're doing the work, and just how
much control they have over that environment.

(24:20):
Yeah. And there's some things like, agencies is
a great thing that to talk about because
there's some... Those things where it's, like, you
can go into a business that provides the
exact same types of services, but all their
people are employees because they want that more
control. And that control is not necessarily a
bad thing. I think sometimes we hear the
word control and we're thinking of, like, I'm
forcing you. I am really in charge. You

(24:41):
have no say. It's do what I say
or get out of here it's type thing.
We kinda view it as negative. But it's
really just who sets the rules. You or
the person doing the work. And you could
still set rules and be a great work
environment that's a great culture that people want
to work at. And there's some people that
are not built for small business ownership, and

(25:03):
that's okay. We're you know, we're all wired
differently. There's some people that want to come
to work and see that there have been
clients booked for them. And they're gonna show
up and
serve these clients versus
if you want clients, you need to go
find them. And you need to have that
mark for yourself to bring in clients, some
people don't want that. They just want to

(25:24):
be an employee and show up and have
this already set for them.
Right? Yeah. There's so many things where being
a small business odor makes you wear a
lot of hats and not all those hats
are fun to wear. So if you think
about it, like, going back to the, like,
the therapy type practices. There's a lot of
therapists that are the independent contractors they they
love it. They never want to go to

(25:45):
a place where they're not a contractor.
And then there's other therapists that are just
like,
oh, my goodness, like, having to source my
own clients, Like, I don't wanna do that.
Like, I just want... Like you said, they
wanna show up and see that they are
booked. They don't wanna be in charge with
that. They don't wanna deal with the backend
end bookkeeping. They don't wanna deal with all

(26:06):
those extra hats of running a business, they
just want to do the work that they're
good at. Right? So this brings up
the logistics
that I think some business owners
would need to hire you for because it's
something they're not equipped with because if you've
been an employee your whole life, you've been
on the other end, but this is the

(26:28):
upfront
expectations,
contracts,
all of the
the things that are put out
before you hire someone
so that you are both on the same
page.
Because if you've never hired someone before or
maybe just you haven't hired them in this
role or maybe you've had contractors and you're
realizing now oops,
I think they're actually employees. I think I

(26:49):
need to switch things around. But either way,
just that front end setup of
expectations.
You can't really have an employee handbook if
they're a contractor.
So talk a little about managing
expectations for both parties if it is an
independent contract. Actor.
Yeah. So if it's an independent contractor. As

(27:09):
you said, like, you can't have an employee
handbook because they're not an employee, you can
set those guidelines
that's just kind of, like your facility guidelines
and everything. So that way, they're aware, they're
aware of what they can use, what can't
they use, what are they responsible in terms
of their own equipment? Are they massage their?
So are they responsible for bringing in their
own lotion? Or are is the lotions you're

(27:31):
providing?
And that's part of the fees that they
pay out, go towards paying for that. So
there's different things you can just set up
those guidelines lines. So you... There's clear expectations
of
what do they have use of in that
facility? And what does that use look like?
So that way, there's no question of
you used my shampoo,
now you owe me money and they're like,

(27:51):
wait, but I thought that was included in
my in my rent fee and everything and
whatever that is. My payout, my commission payout
and that type of stuff. So you want...
You can set up those guidelines.
You know, like I said, the employee handbook
with a lot of those other things.
We don't call it an employee handbook, you
know, call it kinda of facility guidelines. And
have that in writing.

(28:12):
Yes. Yes In writing. If it's not in
writing, no 1 cares. Right. And no 1
will remember. And but that and even in
writing have the people won't read it. But
at least you've done your due diligence
that they can access it.
And it's 1 of those things. I think
you bring up a great point Robin is
people won't read it. They might skim through
it or they won't necessarily it remember it
So this is what I tell everybody even

(28:33):
with if if an employee.
If it's important, you have to have a
conversation around it. So those written documents are
great for reference, They're great for you know,
kinda
reiterating what you're sharing, but there should be
some sort of conversation where you're saying here
are the most important points for this in
hire your document that you need to be
aware of. So that way, it's kind of

(28:55):
reiterating. This is important. I need to know
this. I need to be aware of it.
And everything because yeah. You're right. If it's
a 20 page guidelines document, no one's gonna
read it. If it's a 5 page document,
there's still a lot of people that are
not gonna read it. But a lot of
that you need
it thoroughly written out for to protect yourself
legally.
Yes, have that conversation around it and use
that document for this is what we talked

(29:17):
about. Now you see it in writing and
you're gonna sign off on it and all
those things. That's 1 thing. It's like, have
those guidelines. The other thing is with a
contractor,
you should always have a contract.
The contracts, I always say initially, there should
be a contract that is coming from that
contractor coming from that contractor. Once again, they
are a business.

(29:38):
Businesses should have their operating agreements of how
they work with their clients, how they give
paid. So it doesn't mean that you can't
create a contract as well that you share
with all the contractors you're bringing in, especially
if you are a place, like, a therapist
office or a hair salon or things like
that where it kinda is that you're renting
out that space, but you want you want

(29:59):
to have some protection on your side as
well.
1 contract should technically protect both sides, but
I think it's very important that both sides
put their terms out there. You'll wanna review
through... If you do both put a contract
out, review through them together to make sure
that they're not conflicting in any anyways.
But I always think an independent contractor
should have their own contract, especially for talking

(30:21):
about a contractor like a marketing team member.
A bookkeeper, you know, your Cfo, your fractional
Cfo, you know, things like that where they're
working with multiple clients. If they're working with
multiple clients once again even if they're a
business a 1, they're truly an independent business
that can that should be set up
correctly to work with multiple clients and all

(30:42):
that stuff. So if they don't have any
sort of contract, you kind of then have
to start wondering, well what else do they
not have in place that would make them
a good solid business that you can trust
your business with. So they should have a
contractor. I think it does get a little
bit kind of more on that gray of
flexibility if it is that
hairstylist or that massage there pisses, but there
always should be a contract. So if they

(31:03):
don't have 1, I would say it's always
good to request 1. But you can have
1 as well to set up some more
of those terms and everything to protect you
on your side, especially if it's someone coming
into your place. You wanna make sure that
you're protecting yourself. Sure. So you can can
have both of you submitting a contract and
both signing each other's contracts as long as
they don't negate each other in some way.

(31:25):
Yes. Okay. Yep. Yep. Or in some of
the ways that I've done in the past
with, some of my services that I've
white labeled and worked with other consulting firms
with and you know, they're hiring me as
a contractor to support that. We've created a
contract together. I submitted mine. They submitted theirs.
We reviewed them. We had a lawyer put
the terms and everything together. So it was
1 contract that's satisfied

(31:47):
both sides. Now you're... If you work with
a lawyer, they might advise for against that.
But, you know, it's it's okay to have
1 contract that covers both sides and it's
okay to have 2 contracts 1 for side.
And what about
time limits for
initial contract. So let's say you are a
therapist office and you're bringing in a new

(32:07):
therapist that will be in
independent contractor, they'll have their own space that
maybe they're sharing with another contractor, so they
just have it for the mornings, let's say.
And
especially in a field like that, you really
want the right person
that has the same vibe or morals or
ethics
as the rest of your team,

(32:29):
What time limit are you putting on that
contract
so that if it's not a great fit,
and they didn't technically do anything against your
contract, let's say, but the vibe is just
totally off,
what's too short? What's too long? I'm sure
it depends on the company and and all
of that, but any thoughts on that?

(32:51):
Yeah. So what I think is super important
is not necessarily putting a time limit, but
having a good
termination clause. What
terminate the contract.
And so 1 of the things that... Because
you can put... Because sometimes the reason why,
like, you put time limits around it. And
so for example, I know I had a
contract once with someone,

(33:11):
and it was a year long contract. Well,
then it got to the point of, oh
my god. We have to go through this
process again of renewing our contract and, like,
all these things. And so that we just
finally updated is this contract stands in place
until 1 of us terminate this contract. And
especially because we weren't doing work with each
other
consistently, it was as needed work. And then

(33:32):
I was remembering like, oh, is our contract
still good. Is it not, and it was
just more of, like, using that language in
there and that when can you increase pay?
You, if you saying,
okay, I am going to pay you x
amount? For your work or you have to
pay me x amount for your commission, when
when can pay be increased. You know, they
have a right to review pay every 6

(33:52):
months every year.
Know, how do... How does either side get
out of it? Because that's 1 thing, like,
technically with a lot of these contracts is,
sometimes in some industries and things if they're
too restrictive
where people then are trapped,
it can make them null void in a
lot of ways. So it's like, how can
you make it so

(34:13):
each party still has the right
to say, this isn't working. Because the thing
is you don't wanna hold someone to a
contract, and then them really not working out,
but you're stuck.
You're stuck because this contract says, I'm gonna
keep them on for 3 months before I
make decision. They feel that they're stuck because
they can't break the contract and go work
someplace else, but you're really not a good

(34:34):
fence.
So
I think you need really need to look
at unless it's a time based thing. So
let's talk about some of our marketing roles.
There are things when you hire, like, a
marketing strategy type company, where they're gonna say,
you're signing on for a 3 month contract
or a 6 contracts. And part of the
reason for that is they know possibly that

(34:54):
first month
is going to be a kind of a
little like, we're testing things out. We still
to figure out what works. You, you work...
So it takes some time for really everything
to be implemented. To see the results to
make the changes and everything.
So you're signing on for a time period,
but you're also signing on really for the
work that they're gonna do within that time

(35:15):
period. So there's kinda of that that thing
there. But if it's a contractor, you're just
gonna be always working at or working with?
It's more of that termination clause. When can
someone
step out
when... Or how much notice do they have
to give? If it's something that's kinda paid
up upfront when our refunds do,
things like that is, like, what is that
that language in there that says, how can

(35:36):
we properly terminate this contract on either side
when it's determined that this is not a.
Sure. Do you help people with something like
that?
I don't help with writing contracts. That is
something I definitely think sure lawyer should If
you could help with the general
upfront ideas of what what kind of things
are you looking for for

(35:57):
expectations and
that type thing. Yes. Yep. Yeah. So we've
helped set the expectations. We helped determine high
level as long as it's not on that
great area. What do you need to do
to make this an employee position, what do
you need to do to stay on the
side of a con... For it to be
a contractor. And said setting those x expectation.
So what does this person actually have to
do in order for you to be satisfied

(36:19):
with them in the role? And how do
you find the right person? So
A lot of people think higher a contractor
is a lot easier than hiring an employee.
And all I will say is it's not
necessarily easier
it's just different.
1 of the things that actually makes it
harder is a lot of contract especially really
good ones. They're not out there on job

(36:40):
boards all the time, trying to find that
next opening. They have their website set up.
Like, there's things like that. Like, they're not
always
sourcing
jobs in a typical way like an employee
does. So sometimes if you're hiring contractors,
you have to do more work to find
the contractors.
It could be your networking. So you're always
out there in the community.
Another industry that hires a lot of contractors

(37:01):
is the insurance industry. And I always say,
like, if you wanna find a really good
an agent to come to your team, you
better be networking and building relationships. So when
someone decides they wanna make a switch, they're
coming over to you. There's other things where
it's like, yeah, therapists. If you want a
therapist to come to you, a lot of
times you have to be networking to build
the relationship So when you have an opening,

(37:22):
they wanna come. If you're hiring a marketing
team as a contractor or a marketing professional.
A lot times, you have to be going
again and finding the people.
So then because we're putting in a lot
more work of finding the people we want
to talk with, sometimes we then say, oh,
but what they have is good,
I like what's on their website. I'm gonna
go with with them? But then it's, like,
but is that exactly what you need? You

(37:44):
know, do you need someone
that's good to be good at Facebook ads,
if your target audiences is on Facebook? Yeah.
They could be great at it, but does
that necessarily always translate
seamlessly
into Instagram ads? Or does that mean that
they can create your day to day content
for the social media sites that your business
is on?

(38:05):
You also remember a lot of contractors, well,
technically, all contractors. They're they're the business owners
and everything big, which means they also do
sales, which means they also want to book
that next client.
Because that is something that they need to
do to keep their business going. So when
you get on those conversations, you're on a
sales conversation typically versus a regular
you. So how do you as the person

(38:27):
who's gonna do the hiring, navigate that sales
conversation to understand if this person is the
right fit for you. What questions you have
for them as as someone that helps people
hiring all the time, I love it when
I get on a sales call with the
potential lead for me. And they have a
whole bunch of questions. If you're like, I
wanna make sure you're the right fit for
me, Jamie before I hire growing your team,

(38:48):
But I'm just like great. Because that's what
we wanna help you do when you go
to hire your employees, I'm glad that you
understand the importance of that. That you wanna
make sure that growing your team is the
right fit. We're good at what we do,
but does that mean we're right for you?
You know, we are not right for every
person that comes our way because their needs
are different than what we offer? So you
really wanna make sure that you are set

(39:10):
up right to find the right person that
you need, not someone who's good, just good
at what they do.
Sure. You had mentioned fractional
positions earlier.
I feel like those sessions could really be
in that gray area. Could you talk a
little bit about what those are? And how

(39:30):
you see those
roles
differentiating from just hiring,
a Cmo or a Cfo.
Fractional roles are part time roles that are
really that. High level executive
expertise. So a lot of the roles where
you... They're called, like, fractional Cfo fractional Cmo.
So you're chief Marketing officer, your chief Financial

(39:51):
Officer. So you think about, like, those high
level strategic,
oversight roles that are in organizations. As a
small business, you might need that that expertise,
but you don't need someone full time. Maybe
you just need someone to review your financials,
once a month in order to make sure
everything's going in the right direction or that
is gonna help challenge you to say, you

(40:13):
know, is that decision you're making really a
good decision, Yes, it seems like you can
afford it, but is it align with your
goals and things like that. So it's that
high level oversight that you don't need all
the time. For a marketing,
chief or fractional Cmos
and everything, like, they're once again, they're providing
that maybe high level strategy
overview. Okay. If you want to achieve this

(40:34):
goal. This is what you need to do.
This is what your marketing plan needs to
look like each month. Okay. You have the
team that Can can execute that marketing plan
gonna execute it. I'm gonna circle back with
you guys next month and we're gonna review
together how everything did. Do we need to
make adjustments to our plans and things like
So it's like, you have the people that
can do the day to day work. You
just need someone with that that oversight, that

(40:54):
high level strategy, that thought process. Those were
taking those that accountability and responsibility off of
your plate because either you don't have time
or it's not your expertise. The beauty about
the fractional rolls is
you get that high level expertise without having
to pay a full time salary. So it
might be someone that you just have 10
hours a month. 20 hours a month. But

(41:15):
then they're working with other clients for additional
10 hours or 20 hours a month. So
they might be working a full time.
Time period between all their clients, but they're
only doing some of that work with you.
So you get a fraction of their time
And then it's a fraction of the price
compared to having someone full time on your
staff at that high level knowledge. So I

(41:36):
know a small businesses is. That's always 1
of the fears that I I have to
help people see through is they're like, but
I need this high level expertise, but I
don't have the ability for full time pay
how can I get someone who's extremely knowledgeable
at a part time rights? And that's where
those fractional roles come in. I always say
there's people at every level that want part

(41:57):
time hours. You just need to post it
out there. You will find people that want
part time level or part time hours at
every level of an organization.
So the fractional rules is just 1 us
again, you just have to be clear and
concise on, you know, that relationship. They're only
doing so many hours for you've a month
or a week. You might have a standing
meeting with them, but the rest of that,

(42:18):
they're making decisions on when they work. When
you're looking at those fractional roles, maybe let's
talk about the marketing 1. They're meeting with
your marketing team. That fractional Cmo might say
to your team, I am available for your
questions.
Monday through Friday,
these hours. You can reach out to me
at any time during these hours. I'm gonna
set a standing meeting with you guys

(42:39):
this hour, so 1PM every Friday. We're gonna
have a standing meeting. But that fractional cmo
is really in charge. Those kind of office
hours they give you, they might be giving
to other clients to where anybody can call
them up or jump on a Zoom or
stuff to answer their questions. They're just saying
I'm unavailable. It's kinda like, with your office,
if you're in a back if you're at
a corporate office where anyone could walk in
and ask you a question when it's an

(43:00):
ad hoc meeting. So it's things like that
where the the Cmo or the Cfo
might
set when they're available to you. You could
still have regular cadence meetings with them. They
just also get a say of of when
that is.
Sure. That sounds like a great fit for
some
small business owners that really need that high
level. Like you were... Your example at the

(43:20):
beginning about the owner that was doing
way too much when it comes to the
strategy and holding all of that on 1
set of shoulders. So that seems like that
might be a great fit for some small
business owners.
Oh, definitely. Because typically,
you should be del something,
way before it's a full time role within
your business.

(43:42):
Sure. If you're
waiting to delegate anything in that realm,
until, you can pay someone month for 40
hours a week, you've probably waited too long
that you've been doing too much yourself that
you've actually been losing out on a lot
of revenue because you're spending your time on
either non revenue generating tasks or you're having
to turn away clients. So

(44:02):
start small, start part time, start with contractors
where you can. So that way you can
build up or until you can have a
full time team. And there's also roles
that
will always and forever be filled by contractors.
So don't feel like you're gonna grow your
business to the point where. Everything has to
be an employee because That's not always the
case for a lot of businesses.

(44:22):
Sure.
Let's talk about how Ai
enter into the chat as far as there
are... If you are a solo, and you
are still doing everything yourself, and you're slowly
starting to hire contractors or for projects.
Ai has something
some ways to help take some things off

(44:43):
your plate, and that can be controversial in
some conversations. We just had a speaker in
our impact group that shared some some ways
to make tasks
easier
that weren't necessarily changing the content. It was
more summarizing,
grabbing
information from your own content.

(45:03):
What are your thoughts with Ai and hiring
for small business owners.
I think there's a few things that I
wanna say for this. Like, first off, I
feel like
Ai shouldn't
replace any team members right now.
I think Ai can assist. It can support.
It can make things simpler,
but most likely it's not gonna be... It's

(45:23):
not at a point right now where it's
going to replace a team member. Like, I
don't think you're gonna be able to say,
I no longer need to have this team
member because I'm able to use Ai for
certain things. How you use that team member
might change. There might be some things where
it's, like, okay. Instead of them spending 5
hours writing summaries for all these things, They're
able to use this tool and you're able

(45:45):
to enhance it. Is just think about it
as this way, Like, back in the day,
before computers were popular in offices,
people were using different things.
Computers allowed them to... Their job to change
it didn't immediately replace jobs. It's it allowed
things just to flow differently.
It allowed people to focus on things different.

(46:06):
And I think that's a lot of things
as Ai is. So right now, Ai is
not gonna replace any of your team members,
but it can change how that team member
work it can change the efficiency of some
of the things, but we also have to
recognize that there's a lot of places right
now. Where Ai is not perfect.
I think we need to use it and
or and provide feedback in order for it
to become better, but there's a lot of

(46:27):
places where it's not perfect. To give you
an example here is
So when I'm doing recruiting for my clients,
we use a summary note taker that's Ai
powered to make sure that
I'm getting everything in my notes that I
need, so I can provide a proper summary
to my clients on the client... On the
candidates we're pushing through to that. When I
first started using it, you know, was on

(46:47):
a free trial. So it's was providing me
this great summary of the interview. And 1
things about it is it would give me
a summary. You of what the person said,
but it was missing a lot of those
kind of puzzle pieces that I think are
really important for recruiting. Like, I can sit
here on this meeting and tell you
Guess what Robin. I am the best marketing

(47:08):
person you will ever find.
I am so skilled at digital marketing, no
1 will be better than me.
Guess what. At the end of the day,
I know how to do some marketing things
because I've been having to do it for
my own business, but I am not a
skilled marketing person, but because I said I
was in that summary,
The Ai summary is gonna say, Jamie's is
an amazing marketing person. She's the best you're

(47:29):
gonna find.
But what did I say to prove that?
I just said those words. So Ai takes
what's there, but it kind of misses all
that other things that support things that build
that context, you know, in recruiting, Okay. You
tell me you're great at marketing. But now
I need you to actually provide me some
examples of things that you've done throughout throughout
this interview to support that Oh tell me

(47:51):
your team focused.
But do any of your answers throughout this
interview actually prove that your team focused. So
things like that. So Ai can provide a
summary of what was said, They can't provide
a summary of the act currently of the
actual context of
what wasn't said? What let's read between the
lines here. Let's connect what they said, Here
to what they what they said 20 minutes

(48:12):
later. So I think there's space for it.
There's ways to use it. We just need
to understand that it's not
perfect
yet. So Mh find a ways where you
could say, okay, this is gonna benefit me.
I can get this little perk whether it
is pulling out snippets from your content.
For my podcast. Sometimes I use Ai to
help me figure out what should I title

(48:33):
this?
I'm not typically always going with exactly what
they ate spit out, but at least it
helps me get thinking because that's not my
area of expertise is coming up with titles
for my podcast. I'm horrible at but it
helps me get on the right track. It
helps me start thinking the right way. Mh.
And so I think really rely on Ai
for that to help you out, but understand
that there still needs to be a human

(48:55):
touch. Whether that's you or your team members?
I a hundred percent agree. I... There's a
quote, I'll try to look it up to
put it in the show notes of who
to credit it to.
Whether you won't lose your job to Ai,
but you might lose it to someone who
knows how to use Ai. Yes. I think
that's good. Not not an exact quote, but

(49:15):
something to that effect of it's not going
away,
and it's a matter of how the human
uses Ai? Yeah. To. I think that's a
great quote. So you think about it. People
didn't necessarily lose our jobs to computers, but
the people who refuse to learn how to
use computers. How lost their jobs.
Exactly. Very good. Very good comparison.

(49:35):
This has been fantastic, Jamie. I've learned a
lot. I so appreciate you sharing your ex
expertise with us.
So tell us out of all the things
we talked about, how does someone know it's
a good fit to come talk to you
next and to get your support.
If you are getting ready to delegate, but
you're really unsure about the process. You're not

(49:55):
sure about how to find the right person
and Maybe you've tried to hire in the
past, and it just didn't work out well.
So you're your hesitant because you're just unsure
what to do how to do it. How
to get in front of the right candidates,
then come over and give me a call.
We can set up a call and talk
to see if growing your team will be
a right fit for for what you are
looking for. We do everything from, like I

(50:16):
said, full service recruiting to 1 off consulting
to help put you on the right path
We write job postings and interview guides in
anything that you need at the level that
you need it, so that way you could
feel confident throughout the hiring process.
Great. And where can everybody find you or
connect with you online? Yeah. So you can
go to growing your team dot com? From

(50:38):
there, you'll be able to schedule a call
with me, look through our different resources,
get access to the growing your team podcast,
or you cannot... If you're
Instagram person, go on over to Instagram, and
you can follow us at... If we are
at growing your team.
Excellent. Well, thank you so much. For sharing
your expertise, and it's always great to see
you. Thank you. Thanks you for having me,

(51:00):
Robin.
Thanks for listening today and I hope this
episode helped you with hiring within your business.
If you're looking for more information about that
Ai training, impact mastermind group members, and Can
find that in our online resource hub that
is available to impact members. If you are
interested in learning more about the impact business
circle, please go to women's business workshop dot

(51:22):
com slash impact. Now get back to work.
Business