Batman Day Special: Glen Weldon Unmasks The Caped Crusade

Today on Word Balloon, we’re joined by a voice familiar to anyone who loves smart, insightful pop culture commentary — Glen Weldon, longtime NPR contributor and co-host of Pop Culture Happy Hour. Glen is also the author of The Caped Crusade: Batman and the Rise of Nerd Culture, a sharp, witty, and deeply researched look at how the Dark Knight has evolved across comics, TV, and film — and how fandom itself has grown right alongside him.

From campy ’60s TV to grim ’80s reinventions, and into Batman’s role as a billion-dollar movie icon, Glen traces how this one character became a mirror for changing tastes, anxieties, and obsessions in American culture. We’ll dig into what makes Batman such a singular figure, what The Caped Crusade uncovers about us as fans, and where Gotham’s greatest detective might be headed next. This talk happened in 2016

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome back everybody time again for Word Balloon, the
comp Conversation show. John Cuntrius here, Happy Batman Day. It's true,
it's today, and I wanted to reach back for a
really fun, interesting conversation about the whole Batman phenomenon, and
I spoke to NPR reporter and host Glenn Weldon, who
earlier had done an unauthorized Superman biography if you will Well,

(00:23):
then he turned to an authorized book that he did
for Simon and Schuster called The Cape Crusade, and it's
a look at Batman and how Batman was reflected by
and to pop culture. I think it was a really
interesting conversation and we hit a lot of different eras
of Batman. And again, I know nine years ago, but
a lot of this stuff still sticks. And I think

(00:45):
it was a fun discussion. And Glenn's one of my
favorite MPR reporters and hosts. He does his great Pop
Culture Squad podcast that is a great look at what's
happening in pop culture. I'm sure he has a lot
to say about some of the current news headlines that
are out there there, but today it's all about Batman
and all about Glenn Weldon on today's word Balloon. Word

(01:05):
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Word Balloon listeners check it out today at patreon dot
com slash word Balloon. Let's shift heres now and talk
Batman for the rest of the show. A fun conversation
with Glenn Weldon. This happened before we did it with Superman,
when Glenn released his unauthorized Superman history. This The Caper's Crusade,

(02:33):
is from Simon and Schuster. It is authorized, but this time,
not only is he giving us a history of Batman,
but also an interesting spin on the geek culture through
the lens of Batman. As he puts it. Fun conversation
with Glen Weldon. Let's start it now on word Balloon.
Glenn Weldon, Welcome back to word Balloon. It's been a while,
but I'm glad you're back and back with a new book.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh thanks, man, it's great to be back.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Congratulations another excellent and not only study on another great superhero,
but also in this case, a slightly different book. Why
don't you explain? I mean that we're talking about the
Cape Crusade Batman in the Rise of nerd culture and equally,
the nerd culture and Batman are examined in this book.
So tell us what your thoughts were approaching this volume

(03:19):
as opposed to the Unauthorized Superman book from a while ago.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah. I mean I had a lot of fun writing
Superman the Unauthorized biography, but that was kind of work
for hire. I mean, it was the seventy fifth anniversary
was coming up, and had an editor reach out to
me saying, do you want to do this? So I
did it and I enjoyed it, but it is you know,
it was a strict chronology, because when you're doing a
history of something, you're kind of locked into chronology, which
can start to feel like you are writing a three

(03:46):
hundred page Wikipedia entry. It can feel like you're doing
a term paper. This happened, and this happened, and this happened.
So when it came to this book, which I pitched
because I you know, Batman's kind of my guy, I
decided the I wanted to try and widen out as
much as possible because I do think he's useful as
a lens through which to look at nerd culture. So

(04:10):
that was that was a chance to kind of widen
out and talk about all the different iterations of Batman
over the years and what they mean. That that was
something I was really looking forward to because nerd culture,
like any culture, is messy. It is not tidy, and
things that happen in nineteen thirty nine influenced things that
happen in nineteen seventy. So you have to draw the

(04:32):
through line. You have to kind of figure out what
stays in and what goes. When I turned in the
Superman book that I was asked for seventy five thousand
words and I turned in one hundred and thirty thousand
words because I liked everything. I wanted to write about
crypto a lot, because I think crypto is awesome. I
do too, yes, But when it came time to this book,

(04:52):
I realized that since I had a thesis, which is
that this guy is a lens onto a nerd culture,
then anything that didn't hit that thesis, anything that didn't
serve that thesis, I just didn't have room for. So
I tried to find the through line, and that meant
that I couldn't spend six pages on Mogo the bat Ape.
Though I wanted to spend six pages on Mogo the

(05:14):
bat Ape. I'm sorry, I didn't it all right, yeah,
not this time, not this time.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, and also it's that chicken and the egg kind
of theory which affected which because I understand that there
are touchstone moments in the writing and presentation of Batman,
but then by the same token, the pop culture might
impact how Batman was interpreted. I mean, we can look
at how do you see, and we're just gonna hodgepodge

(05:41):
back and forth throughout the years and stuff. Let's start
with sixty six because I think it's, as you even
point out in the book, a much maligned moment with
the Batman television show. And also you also describe how
it impacts us at various ages. And I've been saying
this as well for years, and I'm glad that someone
else feels that way and also put it in a book,

(06:02):
because now I completely agree with this. But you know, yeah,
I mean, this was the time of pop art, and
certainly you know, I mean, so you know kind of
you know, Liechtenstein was really in a shitty way, obviously
taking a lot of comic book panels and calling the
pop art and not crediting or even cutting in any
of the creators that would have probably appreciated a payday

(06:24):
the way Lichtenstein got. But ya, how do you see
pop art and Batman and the whole sixty six grays.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, pop art was cresting at that moment in the
year leading up to sixty six, and Andy Warhol had
pretty much made his bones on insulations that featured Batman
and Superman because the pop art movement valued things that
it saw as cheap, slick, mass produced, garishly colorful, and
so comic books were kind of made for it. Comic

(06:50):
books and cable soup cans were kind of made for
the pop art movement, and yeah, you're exactly right. They
kind of took advantage of people like Lichtenstein, took advantage
of other folks, and Lickenstein was lead among them. And
when I went back and read some interviews and talked
to some people who were instrumental in bringing up that show,
you know over and over again, they say, you know,

(07:12):
so I had to go and read some comic books,
and so I felt embarrassed to doing it in public.
So I went home, and if you can call it reading,
I was used to hire more high pollutant fare. And
this is a guy, this is William Dozer, the producer
and we would now call him a showrunner of the show.
Who you know, I mean he was, so he tried
to put him up himself out there as mister Playhouse ninety.

(07:35):
But he was also the guy who brought us Dennis
the Menace and Rod Brown of the Rocket Rangers. But
there was something about comic books that just didn't strike anybody.
And this was not unique. This was they were trash,
they were for children, They were beneath contempt because you
wouldn't even give them a fought the second time of day.
So the genius that he and Lorenzo Simple Junior brought

(07:57):
is that, Okay, we're gonna take these of nineteen sixty four,
nineteen sixty five, the Batman comics, which were the new
Look comics, of the new Look Batman, Carmen, Carmen Infantino
and all those folks, and we're just going to assert
them as if every trope, every idea here is just
like we're doing an Ibsen play. We're not gonna wink,

(08:19):
we're not gonna mug. And you know, a lot of
misconceptions about the show kind of hardened into widely held misconceptions.
People think that it's winking that it's satire and it's
really not. It's doing something different. It is simply laying
out everything and the joke, the humor comes from the
fact that these very simplistic, kind of anodyne concepts, with

(08:42):
everything being labeled and big sound effects and very simple
plots and absolute good versus you know, I wouldn't call
it evil. I would call it mischief larceny. That's the conflict.
And you're right. Even reviewers of the time could key
into the fact that kid loved it because of the
colors and the pals.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
App sure in the accident yep.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
And adults and they would turn around to see were
their parents laughing at the show and not get it?
And what I assert and what is actually I found
some evidence for by looking at some fanzines at the time,
is that kids love it, adults love it. Teenagers hate it.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Teenagers who value this character see it as making fun
of him and they want him to be a bad ass.
Even in nineteen sixty six, you know, I talked to
Mark Evanier and some other folks who who felt like
this Batman wasn't for them, even though the Batman that
they were getting in the comics wasn't all that much
difference from the Batman on the television show. I mean,

(09:44):
it was just sort of it wasn't dealt with with
such gravity. But you know, that loan Adventure Batman of
nineteen thirty nine was long gone and completely forgotten. He
would show up in reprints in the back of a
detective comics now and then, But the Batsmen that existed
then are you know. I love those stories. They're whimsical,

(10:06):
they're hugely imaginative, they are just so goofy and fun,
but there is no trace of this dark, brooding Batman
that they claim to have wanted. And I came across
a story where Chuck Dixon would go on to write
lots and lots of Batman stories himself. He's very proud
of the fact that when somebody came into school, his

(10:28):
best friend came into school wearing an Adam West Batman shirt,
he slugged him because that's not my Batman, I mean strung.
I was frankly surprised, John, I was frankly surprised to
see that that that's not my Batman sentiment had such
deep roots in nerd culture, and like I think that
that moment where one nerd slugs another nerd, it could

(10:50):
be the very first recorded incident of nerd rage.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
I understand. I also get because yeah, I always say
it's the three stages of Batman, and it's the four
year old stage. It's that now. I always pegged in
more as an adolescent stage because because I think by
late high school, early college, when you might still be
in your late teens or your early twenties, you do
see the humor, and it is. It is interesting because
I know that Dozer, as you point out as well,

(11:18):
tried to do the green Hornet and played it completely
straight and really played it as an action show. And
it's funny because I even had an argument with a
couple of podcasters who all they saw was the two
part Batman that Green Hornet and Cato guested on, and
they're like, no, it was humor, and I'm like, no,
it's before yeah, And it was before Encore and some
of these other channels started rerunning it, and now they

(11:40):
see it and it's like, now, that was a straight up,
like crime detective show and that you know, find the
detective pretended to be a criminal and had a masco
on and had a kick ass sidekick that could fight
a hell of a lot better than he could. But
and taking nothing away from Van Williams, I thought he
was a fine brit read. I think that that one
season I think is a solid show. But yeah, you know,

(12:00):
now it's weird because again, now I know they're playing
it straight, but like they were they weren't you still
saying that they weren't doing it as a comedy.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Oh yes, absolutely, that was where the humor comes in, right, yeah,
because it was The humor emerges from that fact that
they're playing it so straight, more straight than Van Williams
was playing it, more straight than any of those guys
are playing it. Because it's it would be so easy
to take a comic book and simply adapt it. And
if you adapt it, then you change it to fit
the television format, right, and you make something like Voyage

(12:30):
to the Bottom of the Sea or Star Trek or whatever.
You make something that is a typical action adventure show
that was all over the dial back. Then they did
something very different. They took the comic and basically just
slapped it on the screen. But the tone is what
gives it the humor. The tone is is the fact
that you know, in each episode kind of aped the

(12:53):
format of a typical comic book, you know, and everything returns,
everything returns to status quo at the end. Yes, that's
that's that's the power of that thing. That's the engine
of the show.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
The uh. Also another possible influence to make dose you're
interested in doing something with Batman.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
The old movie serials were playing at the Playboy mansion.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, and they were being being attended
by a lot of hipsters that will we called hip
stures now, but sure like a lot of the Andie
Warhol set, the pop art set, the and people were
and college kids. College kids would go get high and
laugh their asses off because those old cereals are well

(13:35):
a racist and be unfortunately very very goofy.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, especially you're right, and especially I want to say
the forty three one had the uh uh or the
was it the forty nine which one had Jake Carrol
Nash's Doctor Doca.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
That was forty three, yeah, okay, so that was the
original one Doctor Doca.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, yeah, during the war obviously, because yeah, the Batman
and Robin one was forty nine. It was after the war, yep.
But again the and and harsh for the time as
far as racial stereotypes. But a lot of big tropes
came from the cereal. The bat Cave came from the cereal.
The Grandfather clock.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Right, absolutely yes, and in uh, we'll say defense. But
I mean what people went to the movie theaters, what
what they went to cereals for was to see a
newsreel to reassure them that we were winning the war
and to get their you know, patriotic yayas out to
see movies about you know, af lion, leathernex and and
g I's frighten a good fight. And so they adapted.

(14:35):
They they brought a typical hugely successful by the way
a movie cereal and and made the villain somebody that
that could feed into that kind of jingoistic furber of
the time.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Did you watch a couple of weeks ago Turner Classic
Movies was representing them right before the opening of Batman's Superman.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Oh no, no, no, I didn't. I didn't. I did
go to see Batman Superman at an Alamo draft house
out in Gina, and I did show a couple of
those and who yeah, I had seen them. To research
the book, A couple of years back.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well, and I want to get you can't leave without
talking a little bit about Batman Superman. We'll save that
till the end. Let's go back to the beginning though,
because Bob Kane, much maligned, certainly invented his own folklore.
That is on his gravestone. One of the man I'll
tell you, I'm surprised that the epitaph on the gravestone

(15:29):
doesn't continue on the back of the gravestone, because it's
like the Constitution, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
It is. And every time I would think, Okay, you're
being a little you're taking an extraus wipe at Bob
Kane when you don't need to take a swipe at
Bob Kane, I kept a window of that grave gravestone
open on my browser, and so I would just be like, yeah, no,
screw him, no, no, no, uh, let's keep that in.
It is fascinating and infuriating. And who knows if he
actually wrote that, or if his family wrote that, whatever,

(15:56):
but the fact that remains. It's just a part of
this willful attempt to erase Bill Finger's contributions from history.
And that's you know, I talked a lot to Mark
Tayler Nobleman. He's in DC two, so we'd meet and
he would. I gave him the first chapter to read,
just to make sure I wasn't going too far. But yeah,
that was that was something. That guy was a piece

(16:17):
of work.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Mark is the attorney that's been working with a lot
of the estates of these original creators and kind of
helping them get their share correct. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yes, And he wrote an amazing all ages book called
well God, I can't remember that name of.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
The boat, the Bill the bill Finger Kids book.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, the Bill Finger Kids Book. He also wrote that
that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I didn't realize that that's very cool. I remember when
that book came out.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know, and he's so I
he's been doing the grunt work on this, He's been
doing all the legworks. So I kind of bounced it
off him just to make sure I was I had
a solid beat on it, because you know, I mean,
and again, you know, you talked to you talked to Stanley.
These people, these guys self mythologize. They were in the
business of making you know, our modern so they self mythologize.

(17:01):
It's just sure comes with the territory. I suppose. But
that's why historians. I don't consider myself a history and
I consider myself a critic. That's why I default too.
I'm very grateful to the actual historians were really digging
in and going through the papers and going through the
archives and to really figure out who should get credit

(17:21):
for what, because that is hugely important in today's society,
where credit is pretty much all these guys can get
any more.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, it's it's kind of lousy. I don't know if
you had a chance. I'm guessing not because it had
been a couple of years since he passed away, But
any contact with Jerry Robinson or now the creator of
Robin and the Joker.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
No, no, no, I didn't talk to him because he
had passed away when I got to that section of
the book. But I did read there's a really good
biography of him. Yeah, yeah, and I kind of that
really focuses on his work, not doesn't focus on it,
but it really features his work as somebody who also
is going after was going after you know, creator's rights
and compensations.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, I played it.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
He played a huge role in getting you know, Sequel
and Schuster the credit they've deserved.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Absolutely, that's where I was going. But it's better than
you say it, Glenn, because you've done the you see,
that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Man.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
We got the historians that are doing the really hard work,
and then we got you, the critic that's writing a
book and everything and doing your share research. And then
you know, you got Jimmy Jerkoff over here, who's just like, yeah,
I think I remember reading that in Amazing Heroes thirty
years ago. So I'm going to go with that.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
We are not so far apart, my friend. We're very close.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
No, no, it's all good. And seriously, I you know,
I kicked myself because I saw Jerry a few times
at San Diego before he passed away, and it was
one of those literally like running on empty you know,
barely could afford to go to San Diego that year
when it was my last opportunity to buy a Batman
sketch for him, and they were like cheap, they were
like one hundred bucks, and I'm like, why didn't I

(18:56):
do it? And it's like, I know I didn't have
the money, but it's like, ah, missed opportunity to get
an original Batman from Jerry Robinson.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
I will say, and this is I mentioned this elsewhere,
but I mean, I did start out this book trying
to get everybody on tape that I could, and I
talked to a lot of people at Comic Con. I
cornered people basically, and so you know, the tape is lousy,
but I got them on tape, and i'd go to
start to transcribe it. And I'm not gonna say who
it was, but I talk to this one old creator
who's hugely involved in this stuff, and I was typing

(19:27):
it out. By the way, transcribing is awful.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I don't know how Yeah it is.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's terrible, terrible, It's terrible. It's terrible. And I'm also
not I say, I'm not a historian, I'm not a
journalist because I can't ask the questions I asked questions
that haven't been answered before. But there's a thing about
and this happens to people of a certain age, regardless
of even if they're trying to mythologize themselves, but at
certain point, their memory becomes the story they tell.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Sure, you know what I mean, absolutely so.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
So it's like it was so weird. I got it back,
I should typing it out and the nice. I remember
that I had seen another interview with this guy, so
I looked at it and it was like I had
pressed play on his brain and he it was almost
literally word for word, and I wasn't getting anything new
because you know, then that's my faul, because I don't

(20:16):
know how to ask the questions. I'm not a journalist.
But that's why I decided I would focus this book
as I had on the first one, not as so
much on what the what the writers and the creators
and the artists thought they were writing and creating and
doing part about, but what they had, how it affected
the culture, how fans saw it. I think that's you know,

(20:36):
that's that's kind. That's that's why. That's what a critic
can do that I think, or at least attempt to do.
So that's what I felt was my role on this
particular book as well.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Well, you know, And and it leads me to another
section of the book that I think is slightly I
wouldn't I don't want to use the word controversial, and
certainly not from my standpoint, because I always it's so weird, man,
I always have to I end up having these conversations
and I start much like the generation before me, where
I think I'm you know, right minded and on the

(21:07):
right side of this. I consider myself a liberal, but
we have I'm interested because you really did. You went
into the whole thing about Batman and Robin, the dynamic
of the dynamic duo, and certainly the homosexual relationship that
doctor Wortham the seduction of the innocence author accused them of.

(21:29):
But also the fact that you know there are panels,
there are moments that you know obviously do look like, hey,
this doesn't look like a father son relationship or an
older brother younger brother relationship. But I think the reading
your book too, that it really is in the hands,
much like art should be in the person interpreting the art,

(21:51):
the person who's consuming it and what they get from it.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Absolutely I mean, you talk to any of these creators
and they were going to say absolutely not. And in fact,
you can get Jill Finger, you can get you can
get You can see Bob Kane being asked the question
and swatting it away for really much? Is that true?

Speaker 1 (22:06):
That is that on record of Caine being asked the question.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
I think I certainly I certainly found evidence that Finger did,
and I'm pretty sure. Well, I know because I know
because Joe Schumacher said that on the set of Batman.
I think it was Batman, Batman and Robin where he
saw the ear ring, he saw the nipple suits, and
he was like, what is going on? He was kind
of he was such a company man. He was such

(22:32):
a booster. They paid him a stipend to be like,
uh an advisor to those movies. Sure, and he just
he would go out to the fans and say, Nope,
this is good, no, this he's the best Batman for
each and every movie.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
I do remember that in the nineties absolutely man.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and the only time that he pushed back even
a little, The only evidence I found that they ever
pushed back was with the nipples and the earring and yeah,
so let's let's let's let's infer that he would. He
would on record, but you know, pretty much every creator,
every writer has said, no, that's not what it's Devin
Grayson said, you can understand the gay readings, but the

(23:07):
only one who is like, money's anybody gay is Grant Morrison,
of course.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Being super gods. Yeah, man, yeah, and it was always gay.
Oh you're kidding me? Absolutely good. Back to thirty nine.
I'm like, yeah, I know, I read that to it.
I'm like, hey, gread Come on.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Man, really well, I mean this is a thing. It's it.
Whether or not it was intended, it doesn't matter because
when it comes to comics, specifically to comics, there are
nonverbal cues that again not intended.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Sure, but for.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
People like me, a gay guy who doesn't see historically,
doesn't see representations of my life anywhere in popular culture
until very recently. But think about the kids who are
reading this stuff back in the forties and fifties, which
was a rabidly homophobic time, and that is something that
worth them. Kind of had a point about he basically said,

(24:00):
was not that Batman or Robert Gay. What he said
essentially was that seeing these two dudes in this mansion
wearing the dressing gowns, with the with the giant flowers
and lodge faces, all that stuff is going to make
kids wonder about their own sexuality, question their own sexuality.
Now he is he had a point. He didn't have

(24:21):
the point that he thought he did. No straight kid
is going to look at that and think, oh, what's
going on here? But I put it to you, John
that every single gay kid is going to be like,
what's going on here, because again, we don't see representations
of ourselves. Straight people see representations of themselves and everything
so much that they cease to register his representations. It's
just comics, it's just movies, it's just TV. We got

(24:44):
gay people, queer people see do not see that. And
in fact, we see worlds, especially in the case of
superior comics historically, especially in the forties and fifties, where
not only don't we see ourselves, but it's a world
in which we absolutely do not exist. So when presented
with that, all we do is we just look deeper
to make connections that are not intended but can be found,

(25:06):
because the thing about comics is that they are literally subtextual.
There is text, but then there is imagery. Imagery is
what matters here. Absolutely, body, language, background detail, all that
stuff can be plumbed and connections made. And yes, it's
unfair to pull one panel out of context. It's basically
it's it's it was worth them, you know, modus operandi.

(25:28):
It's what a lot of people on Tumblr do every
every day. Absolutely just pulling individual kind of it's not
you know, fair, if you are so determined to hold
onto you know, this, the notion that everything's totally fine.
But it's it's I didn't make it up. Nobody made
this up here there, it's there, it's part of it.

(25:50):
It's part of the rich pageant that is this character.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Well, and to be honest, I mean, that's the thing
that even now as as an adult night Wing, I
hear men and women both say Dick Grayson and I
spot you know, I mean, it's and it's like I
get it, and it's like, all right, good for you,
that's great, and seriously, you're right, And honestly, that's excellent
that even in that small way, they can find something
to relate to. So that's really I you know, I mean,

(26:15):
but that's that's the thing I do. I still find
the discussion interesting and I do appreciate both sides of it.
So that's the thing. I'm certainly not a hay wait
a minute, but.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to insist
that they are and as long as nobody insists that
they are to me, because because the idea is to
me they are or they might be, or they could
be to you, they are. They aren't to they are
they could be. This is the fandom gets better, the imagery,
the art gets better. The comics situtter when they become
less monolithic, when the values that are being asserted are

(26:48):
not just values that matter to one small subset of
the population, but we can all see ourselves. Representation, you know,
is step one, but it's it's a step, and it's sure.
It's these these things have to speak to everybody, uh,
and they can do that without uh denigrating or or

(27:09):
or not speaking to other people. It's it's just these
things work on an emotional, basic, preverbal level. That's that's why,
that's why we're not these This isn't pros where we
have to kind of intellectualize and picture. This is imagery
where we can kind of see, uh. And you know,
there's a large part of the power of these images.

(27:29):
The power of these characters is how they look, not
only the fact that they are you know, jacked, but
their color schemes, they're design, they're it's it's all, it's
all a very basic elemental you know. And this this
is what this is why we we sometimes I think
some of us take this whole. They're the mythology of today.

(27:49):
A little bit too far, But I mean that there's
a basic truth.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
To that well. And also you you point out in
another section too, that Batman is kind of the ink
blot that everyone can look at and interpret in their
own way. And that's why, not only from a sexual standpoint,
but also social mores. And you know, at times he's
the he's the friendly, duly deputized agent of the law,
as Adam West would say, and then other times he's

(28:14):
the he's the outlaw vigilante that Frank Miller brought back in,
you know, in the Dark Knight interpretation. So you know,
I also you, I think had the best answer because
the other interesting question regarding the nerd culture and comics
in general, it's like, why do we still love this
shit as adults? And I'm slightly older than you, maybe

(28:37):
a lot older than you, but regardless, I think you
got Scott Ackerman to give to that's the best answer
I've heard, and it didn't occur to me until I
read that in your book. And if you don't mind
sharing that, well, he.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Basically said, you know, I asked everybody, why is nerd
culture now the dominant culture? What's happened? Why all of
a sudden what's happened, and you know, you get because
of this, his cultures are messy things. You get different
answers depending on who you talk to. The families I've
talked to are just like, well, we'll come to Comic
Con every year. This is just part of what we do.
You know, my family had, you know, Monopoly and Uno

(29:10):
and Clue, and their family has you know, Joss Whedon's
Firefly and Munchkin. You know, it's it's just it's it's different.
And then I talked to every pro I talked to
to a person basically said, now people understand the why
we love comics so much. Excuse me, because movies can
capture comic book spectacle in a way as they couldn't before.

(29:32):
And now that barriered entry because there was a stigma
associated with comics. Now that stigma is dissolving, or at
least the stigma to the stories that are told. The
stigma to the format might still be there, but to me,
the stigma to the to the to the stories that
are encased in them has gone away, and now they're mainstream.
But when I talked to Ackerman, he said, basically, we

(29:54):
didn't have this. My generation didn't have a war. We
didn't have a draft, so we didn't fear for our lives.
We didn't ever go, We didn't you know, ever have
any kind of introspection. What we had instead was this,
Instead of this feeling of self reservation, we directed it
toward this comic book, that TV show, that movie. That's

(30:15):
where we kind of direct our passion. And that's what
nerd culture is essentially about. It's about this passion. The
thing I love about it is that it explicitly rejects
irony because I grew up I don't know, I don't
know about you, but I grew up in the age
of Letterman, which was which is all about reflexive irony, cool,
not trying too hard, making sure everybody knew that you were,

(30:40):
that everything was funny, and that everything it was you
were too cool for everything. Nerd culture rejects that completely
by being because those passions are completely sincere. They are not,
you know, reflexive. Then they are reflection, but they're not
reflection that you don't you don't sort of what do

(31:02):
I like a lot? That's not a question you ask yourself.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
You just love it.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
The problem is is that that, uh, that passion can
curdle very quickly when it is motivated by a need
to share with others. When you say this thing I love,
I want to tell you about it. Look at this,
look at this comic, look at this record. Uh, here's
some here's some wine that I really like. When whatever
you're passionate about, if you want to share it, then

(31:30):
then nerd culture is a positive, inclusive, wonderful place. There
is something about passion, though, that tends to obliterate nuance,
It obliterates discussion, and it pushes things to either side
of a spectrum where my thing is the best in
your thing is the worst. And when that happens, we
start to not want to share our thing, but we

(31:53):
basically become nerd hipsters, where we think that our thing
is the best and that if you try to h
if you don't like it for exactly the same reasons
that I do, then you're doing it wrong. And that's
where a lot of this toxic bullshit comes in, because
there is a feeling of entitlement of I was here first,

(32:13):
of you don't understand this thing, You fake a geek girl.
All all that crap comes from this same place of passion,
and you know I'm writing a piece now, or I'm
trying to figure out what happens next now that nerd
culture has become culture. Are we raising a generation of
kids who don't feel victimized because they like D and D,

(32:35):
who don't feel shunned because they like superheroes or comic books?
And if that's true, will then they grow up without
that feeling of that feeling of being oppressed, that feeling
of resentment, that feeling of you know, the jocks, the
popular kids, I screw them. So do we then are

(32:56):
what are we? What are we raising that? If we're
not raising nerds? This is These are questions to which
I don't have answers, but I'm kind of bouncing them
off you because I'd like you to tell.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Me no, I agree, and I don't have the answer either,
because I think, unfortunately, we're gonna have to wait till
the picture develops to put it in polaroid metaphor, because
you know, that's the thing. Justin Gray, the co writer
with Jimmy Palmiani on Jonah Hexon, so many excellent original
creations between them. Last night on Twitter, was like, you know,
let's remind everyone that this crossover from superheroes to other

(33:28):
media has about ten years left and then it's done.
And I'm like, based on what because I think we're
in new territory. I understand that fads come and go,
but all we have to do is point to the
Western that pretty much lasted for about seventy five years
from the Silent era to about the mid seventies and
then at a resurgence again in the eighties. So that's

(33:51):
the thing I really think we're in. Like you said,
I mean to also add more baggage to what you're suggesting.
I mean, that's the thing. There are so many outlets
as opposed to the three channel or five channel era
of the you know, fifties through the eighties, the pre
cable era where you can watch these things. Certainly the
Internet has opened then and you can feel good about

(34:12):
what you like and find a community, if not next door,
then certainly online that shares these passions. I don't know
what that's gonna happen. And that's why even with a
movie like Batman Superman that I find incredibly polarizing, and
we're gonna get to that in a second, yet there's
no there's no right answer, and that's what I'm looking
at right now, is this immediate month as this movie

(34:35):
plummets after the initial great opening that everyone was patting
themselves on the back for. But I'm like, yeah, let's
see how word of mouth plays out, because it's It's
interesting because there's as many people that I know that
I would have thought, oh my god, you're gonna hate
this movie that love it as do hate it and
I and I'm shocked. I'll admit I was disappointed and agree,

(34:57):
and I try to separate myself, as you say, and
not be like, well, you clearly don't understand Batman or
whatever you know. And I think these characters are absolutely unbreakable.
They're open to different interpretations. But you know, I can't
deny I didn't like the movie because I felt it
was joyless.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
So yeah, oh see, that's the thing. Okay, So I
totally agree with you about the superios or a genre,
and like any other genre, they're going to cycle in
and out of popularity. There's gonna be good examples and
bad examples. They are exactly when I talk about this,
I talk about westerns, I talk about slasher films, I
talk about rom films. They go in and out it's
part of the deal. They're just a thing. The difference,

(35:35):
I think is that we are getting from one company
a very monolithic take. We are getting the same tone
over and over and over again. And I don't want
to develop to Marvel versus Duc but there is something here.
Marvel understands that these are different characters that must be
dealt with in a different tone. You can't do Captain

(35:58):
America Winter Soldier in the same way that you do
ant Man because they are different characters, and they are
different they demand different approaches. Superman and Batman are not
the same character. You cannot have. You cannot bring a
grim like our joyless, pseudo philosophical take on on on

(36:23):
Superman that may have worked for three films or two
and al films with Batman, because there's a resonance with that.
There's there's a long history of grim rooting, you know,
takes on the things like the surveillance state, things like
the like terrorism that there's there's a history there. It's
part of that character's DNA. It's not with Superman. Superman

(36:46):
is it is intended is a creature of hope, not
not dour joyousness. A film and here's where here's where
we'll get to Batman versus Superman. I don't want to
go to see a film that is basically about a
flying spaceman and a billionaire ninja detective, which is about

(37:08):
the futility of virtue, the futility of hope, the futility
of trying to do the right thing. That seems to
me like you are just missing the characters. Again. I
talk to a lot of Batman fans for this book,
and they all said, I like Batman Born the Superman
because he's relatable. And I talk about that a certain

(37:31):
amount of extent in the book. I talk and I
try to kind of put some I poke some holes
in that theory because I think it's not really his relatability.
I think it's I think it's his oath. I think
it's this idea of obsession. I think that's what resonates
with nerds in a big way. I also think that
there's a tendency to focus on the fact that he's

(37:52):
a badass, on the rage that totally misses the hope
that is implicit in this character. The hope is he
is going to put himself, He put his body between
harm coming to anybody else. In that sense, he's a
lot more like Superman than than he isn't because he's
dedicating himself to the proposition of never again. I'm going

(38:12):
to keep this, I'm going to keep what happened to
me from happening to anybody else, just by punching crime
in the face. A lot that is a very it's
a weird kind of hope. It's not necessarily a realistic hope,
but that's its power, because again, who came up with it?
A child in a lonely bedroom by candlelight, swore an

(38:33):
oath in nineteen thirty nine to dedicate the rest of
his life warring and all criminals. That has an elemental,
pre verbal, simple power that you that if you just
focus on the car and the spectacle and the explosions,
if you make a movie that is essentially an image
comic come to life, a nineties image comic come to life,

(38:54):
then you're missing You're missing who this guy is.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
And it's you know, it's funny, I really do. I
think Affleck was a lot, and I wasn't one of
those I honestly wasn't one of those people that are
like Affleck as Batman. I'm like no, I think he
could do it. And I think he had flashes of
true Batman moments, certainly as Bruce Wayne in those opening
scenes when and it's in the trailer, so if you
haven't seen it, I'm not spoiling, but you know, yeah

(39:18):
that you know, when he's rushing to the Wayne building
as it's collapsing and trying to save people. You know,
that's a very Batman moment. And I and I really
think that he had several of those in the movie.
And and like you say too, there's this contrast of
Batman and Superman that usually plays itself out in the
in the books, in the movies, in the t you know, well, actually,

(39:41):
I can't think of a time in TV, although radio,
and I'm glad you point out on the old radio
show Batman and Robin would show up a.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Lot and there they were best of friends.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well that's the thing, man, And you know, I grew
up in the you know, my decade was the seventies
as far as being a kid, and so I grew
up with those eighty page Giants and hundred page Spectacle
Killers when they weren't reprint those great stories that you know,
came from world Finest, and you know you had Kurt
swan Art or Dick sprang Art and they were absolutely best,
the best friends, and hey, this is great. You do

(40:12):
what I do? Okay, five, let's do it together. Sounds great.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah. And even in the seventies, in those issues of
World's Finest, where Gotham City was across the bay from Humbertop,
there's a bridge that connected them. Yeah, you know, they
would go, they'd visit each other all the time, and
they'd hang out. No, they had different approaches, they had
different outlooks. They didn't always agree, but they weren't coming

(40:34):
to blows. That was the thing that kind of very
frankly Frank Miller turned up to eleven. Yeah, and John
Byrne after him. They kind of that's when you get this.
We want the same thing, but we go about it
in very different ways.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
I remember reading that last World's Finest that either happened
before Man of Steel or Dark Knight or even Batman
Year one, because it was around it was right before
crisis or right after crisis, and there it really was
this kind of one issue, both of them kind of
showing up and disagreeing on how they were going to
approach whatever the problem was, and Batman swings off and

(41:10):
Superman kind of watches him, and yet it's this kind
of unresolved disagreement that you're let and I just remember thinking, oh, Man,
that's too bad, because again I had grown up for
you know, about fifteen years enjoying these these good friends
that even the Supersuns they were on the same dage.
Can't love the supercons Man.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
I put them in the Superman book, but there was
no room for them in the Batman book because they
were just way too goofy. But yes, I love the
supercent And actually in Batman and the Outsiders, he forms
the Outsiders because he doesn't agree with Jess waiting Jla
and Superman is running things. He becomes moodier and moodier
after Dick leaves, and he goes back to being the
sort of loan avenger of the Night, and he gets

(41:51):
progressively you know, dower and bitch here over the course
of the late seventies and early eighties until crisis, when
it all turns around and we get you know, we
get Dark Knight returns. And this longing which I touched
on the book, the longing of the people who are
reading the regular Batman series to have that somehow connect
to bring Dark Knight returns into continuity. And so when

(42:13):
they got the chance by killing off Jason Todd, they
jumped at it.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
This is true, Yes, the famous nine hundred number to
kill or not kill Robin or you're right about that.
Isn't it interesting? Though? Because again this goes back to
does the culture is pushing Batman a certain way? Because
while those Frank Miller stories were happening, you did have
Mike Barr, a very capable Batman writer writing not only

(42:40):
a friendlier Batman, a Batman who smiled. I remember that
Detective I think it was Detective four hundred or five hundred,
where Sherlock Holmes showed up at one hundred and twenty
years old or however.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Old they I remember that too.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
There you go, and you know, and Batman offers to
light Holmes his pipe and he's smiling when he's doing it,
and and Holmes is like, thanks, it's the pies for
a show. I don't smoke anymore. And it was, you know,
it's just I haven't had a chance to talk to
Mike Barr. But I mean that's the thing, man, I mean,
you had a lot, even even Danny O'Neil and Neil
Adams there are given and as you properly document in

(43:14):
the book, given so much credit of bringing us back
the darker Batman, you still had other guys writing and
drawing Batman that, like I said, yeah, it was still
it was kind of a you know, there wasn't not
an inconsistency, but there was I guess, a different tone.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, you get you would get kite Man, you'd get
get basically the return of the costume foes. Because everything
about this character cycles. It's not like Superman, which I
you know, I charted a certain steady evolution to kind
of speak to the zeitgeist in different ways. Uh, this
guy cycles from light to dark, light to dark, from
being a lone protect Loan Avenger to being a protector

(43:50):
and father figured Robin to being the head of this
huge coterie of bat themed you know, apprentices all God
back back to being the Loan Avenger. It's it's a cycle.
They kind of line up the light to dark, light
to dark and that three printing cycle of Lonavenger to everything,
but they don't always. But yeah, it's the the culture really,

(44:13):
the nerds, you know, Grim and gritty happened in response,
it was Watchmen, it was killing Joke, it was dark
Knight returns that this is what there's a need on
the nerds traditional bat nerds part to have their character
have this character that they love taking capital s seriously.
And the problem is when we define that too narrowly,

(44:35):
when we when we when we equate seriously with violent,
joyless and and you know, badass. That's there's you can
take a character seriously and still have humor. You can
take a character seriously and still have some measure of
hope that have him be an ideal that we strive

(44:56):
to achieve. And yeah, and so they came up with
the character of Azrael in part as a comment on
the bleak, nehilistic accouterments, heavy five strap mo belt kind
of things that was happening in the nineties, and they

(45:16):
feared that because they wanted to have a contrast. They
wanted to show that Batman was still a guy who
would not kill and he would not maim and torture,
that he was a hero. So they had Asrael come
along to be a guy who would just reject that code.
And they were hoping that people wouldn't glomb onto him,
and people glombed onto him because it was the nineties

(45:36):
and that's what people wanted. So bringing him back. Bringing
Batman back was a long, slow row that was a
little bit slower than I think they had originally planned
because they wanted to get to milk everything they could
out of Azrael.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, did you have a chance to talk to the
people about Nightfall and night Quest and what led to
Batman reclaiming the Mantle after Asrael had taken it over
and kind of perverted it and everything.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
I mean, well, O'Neill's basically said, Yeah, our fear was
that he would be We wanted to offer him as
this as this example of what was going on in
the books in the nineties, and our fear was that
people would embrace him, and they did embrace him.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yesh. Yeah, yeah, because I read you know, that's that's
kind of when I checked out. Was right after when
I checked out, well, and I mean I stuck with
the story till it was over, and I even read Prodigal,
which was Dick Grayson taking the costume after Bruce was
back but not quite ready to be Batman yet again.
So and then yeah, after that, I was like, all right,

(46:37):
I'll see you. And then it really was the Benduses
and the brew Bakers and the Ruccas that kind of
brought me back to comics and really No Man's Land,
the you know, yeah, what a great story. And in fact,
I read Rucca's novelization before I came back to comics.
I was on a trip to New York and at
O'Hare airport and saw this Batman novel and I read

(46:57):
the back cover and I'm like, well, this sounds like
a cool story. Holy shit, And it was. I mean,
this was this great epic, you know, kind of wonderful
story that happened after Contagion in nineteen ninety nine, and
you know, yeah set up this really interesting status quo
of what if Gotham is this kind of just sealed
off place where the crazies are left and everyone's fending

(47:18):
for themselves.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah, and I'm not alone in this. I mean, this
is by no means a unique outlook. But I did
love the animated series a lot because I think it
kind of reduces the character to his essence. It doesn't
dump a lot of stuff on top of him, it
doesn't do what the what the Nolan films, what the
Schumacher films, what the Burton films did, which is just
kind of use Batman to tell the story according to

(47:40):
that director's you know outlook this these each, each and
every one of these were Batman stories, Batman as he
is at his essence. And consequently, I think I remember
just being dispirited by all comics in the nine if
the only comics that kept buying were the animated series
das because those were a all ages which you didn't

(48:03):
have in the nineties, be done in one stories that
were incredibly tight, concise, simple, and some of the most
mature not mature is in like sexual content, but like
like not adolescent. Yeah, Batman stories on the shelves. Similarly,
when the thing that brought me back was a how

(48:26):
Batman was portrayed in Grant Morrison's Ja La as the
Master Strategists, the Master Guy with contingency plans, with the
contingency plans, and then really it was a Gotham central
a be a fantastic You know, you can do gritty,
you can do grim and still have it be fantastic
if you care about character more than spectacle, if you

(48:48):
care about storytelling more than just having people grimace at
each other in full page splash panels, you know, over
as they stand over rubble. I mean, that's Gotham Central
was a out storytelling was about using the comics medium
to do what it can do, which is tell a
story that isn't just about you know, two people in

(49:09):
tights beating each other up, but actually the people around
this thing, how a character like this would affect the
world around him. It was a really smart thing. Some
of my favorite comics of all time.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
I agree with you on that, and it's kind of
one of the things I like Gotham. I don't love it,
and it is because it leans more towards Tim Burton
and less away from Gotham Central. I couldn't agree more
and I think it would have been better served. I
really was more of a straight up police procedural without
the wackon I mean, with the with the with the
Rose Gallery. I don't mind that because that was for

(49:44):
some of the fun of Gotham Central. How does the
police department handle this when Batman isn't there? And how
to and you know, so yeah, and god even as
like Dead Robin, the story where you know, a dead
body shows up in a Robin suit and they're not
sure if it's really Robin or not, and just that
or the Sniper story with a joker. What a children

(50:04):
story and a very realistic one. You know, I haven't
read Paul Deney's realistic Batman story yet. Has it come
out yet. I don't even know if it's a I
don't know. I don't know. Did you talk we and
again maybe you didn't. It might have even been known
that he was like thinking about the story, because I
know it's been percolating, and for people who don't know,
I'm sure they do. Deany was mugged and really beaten up.

(50:29):
And this was while he was working on the animated series.
And he has a new book that's coming out soon,
a graphic novel that really does kind of deal with
his own you know, the aftermath of that and how
it really messed him up for a while, and especially
trying to come back and write about a guy that
could right those kinds of wrongs that obviously wasn't there
in the real world for him and just you know, yeah,

(50:51):
messed him up. It's sad. I mean. A great interview
that he did with Kevin Smith, a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, yeah, I did hear that.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, so yeah, I don't know, but you know, yeah,
that's my thing with Gotham is it's still like I said,
and I like the Tim Burton stuff, but it is
it's still kind a little too much cheese and I
would have been happier with a little more grounded series.
But that's okay, you know whatever. Again, I think these
things are indestructible. In fact, as bad as Batman Superman
did or has been received, you know, I think people

(51:21):
realize because even today as we're talking, there are rumors
that they might tweak their you know, following superhero films.
Certainly we heard Suicide Squad is getting a few more
comedic scenes added to it and everything to lighten the tone.
So I think the powers that be are listening. But
I know there was always that fear that whenever something
was done wrong, it's like, oh, well, that's gonna screw

(51:43):
the franchise. And I'm like, yeah, no, I don't think
more than three years and two of them is making
the new movie that will correct anything that's gone wrong.
And I feel that way about Batman Superman. I don't
know how you feel about it, Well, yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
I think they are always correcting the last film, and
that's not necessarily a strategy, you know. Can I remember
after the Nolan film that did so well and they
tried well they I think it was Superman Returns comes out,
uh and and it doesn't do well. They think to themselves, Okay,
what we need to do is what Nolan did. What

(52:16):
we need to do here is make make a Superman
film that's grounded and dark and morose and man, that's
just spiriting me so.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well. And again they doubled down with this movie.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
I totally did.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
And and you know, okay, I mean again, it's still
the first month. You know, my buddy Tim Byers, who
analyzes this stuff, was like, let's talk, man, let's talk
right away. I'm like, no, man, let's wait till the
first month and really see what kind of trajectory this
movie does. And you know, certainly we've heard that it
wasn't well received in China, but you know, you know,

(52:50):
and that's a big that's a big financial part of
the package these days, you know. So yeah, it's very
very interesting times, man, And I think the good news
is there's always good Batman product to reach for. When
a movie or whatever disappoints, and you know those of
us that love comics and books and things like that
that can just do that and and be like all right, well,

(53:13):
you know again, I how'd you feel about Affleck as Batman?

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Oh, you know, he's fine. He wasn't given much to
do except glower. But but yeah, Cavell wasn't given much
to do except nolower. I mean, that's that's the that's
the deal.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Yeah, I would agree on both on really all the
actors accounts. It wasn't their fault and if anything too,
I saw enough in Affleck's performance, and I'm like, all right,
I'd like to see a Batman movie with Affleck and
hopefully directed by somebody else and someone that you know,
can put a little more humor and a bit more
balance to it. But you know, I whatever, and and

(53:51):
maybe take the gun away from Batman.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's the thing. But that's been a
thing from the beginning. There was there was there were guns.
There were machine guns on on the Bad Well yeah,
certainly not about Gyro, but I mean there were guns
in Burton's on Burton's Batmobile, Like okay, and you can
wave it away by saying rubber bullets. But he did
kill a few dudes, so you know, it's just because again,

(54:17):
I have a whole thing about this in the book
about how superheroes are not action movie heroes. When you
try to make them action movie heroes, you satisfy the
action movie going audience because we like to see you know,
we like to get our yah yas out. We like
to see the evil villain punished. But you can't you
distort them. You have to keep them not killing people.
You have to keep them inspiring hope, even if it's hokey.

(54:39):
You if you want to write a Batman story, you
have to kind of keep to the genre constraints because
that's where creativity comes in. You know, within those genre constraints,
you can do a lot of different things. But to
try to map a superhero story onto an action movie story,
it means giving it the typical action movie structure with
a big stupid explosion at the in the third act

(55:00):
where everything that happened in the first I have to
come back. So you have to turn the person who
kills Bruce Wayne's parents into the joker. That's just dumb,
because that's a that's a fundamental mystery to fool the
character is because the whole thing about him is that
it's a caped crusade. It's not a caped vendetta. It goes,
it opens out into the world. It's larger than him.

(55:21):
He is not looking for Joe Chill. He is looking
He's looking out for everybody. He is trying to stop crime.
So it's he always is dispiriting a new but I understand.
It's just you know, there's there are nerds in there, normals.
Nerds loves adventures, endless adventures, and normals want tell me
a story, give me the beginning, middle and the end,

(55:42):
and let me let me get out of here.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah. Yeah, I want to see the end exactly. No,
I get it, and you're right about that.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
It was.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
It was heartening though several of my non nerd friends
going I thought, Batman doesn't like guns. I'm like, yes,
you're right, Well, then why did we have one? I
don't know you're gonna have to And especially, I mean,
you know Zack Snyder's body of work. When you look
at it, all these films, they look and I don't
mean this in a rude way, they do look the same.
There's a dreariness about them. There is a hopelessness that Honestly,

(56:11):
I liked Watchmen because it fit the story, the joy,
the hopelessness. It was the superhero hangover. That's the point
of Watchmen.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
You know. No, sorry about that, Sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Yeah, no, no, And yeah, I was just saying that,
you know that that's the point of Watchman and stuff.
But David Goyer is the guy who surprised me. Yeah,
I mean, because it's like David goyre has written excellent
Batman and Superman stories, and that's why it's like I I,
you know, I guess, you know, maybe because director has
final cut, maybe it's you know, Zach Whu ultimately won,

(56:44):
or I don't really know.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Yeah, it's it's so much of this franchise stuff. I mean,
I'll dispute with you a little bit on on Watchman
because I think what he did with that slow motion
camera tricks was turned these essentially pathetic, screwed up psychopaths
into badass heroes. So when you have a fight scene

(57:09):
and you slow everything down so everything looks awesome, you're
missing the point. I mean, I'm gonna say what everybody else,
what everybody else said, which is that that moment Warney
actually interpreted the book. That prologue where he added something
is actually the by far the most interesting part of
that film, because everything else is just almost verbatim, shot
for shot, except he got the tone wrong. Except we're

(57:33):
not meant to admire these people, were meant to think
that they are deeply, deeply screwed up, and that it
just doesn't come through.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
I appreciate that. And you're right about the prologue to
the that was great, Dylan times they are changing. Oh
my god, Yeah, that's a And it's so funny because
literally I saw a screening of Batman Superman a few
days before the opening, and and the next night Watchman
was running on Spike or whatever, and yet just happened
to catch that opening, and I'm like, you know, this
is a better movie than you know, I think or whatever.

(58:05):
And again, it was that part of the movie that
that really I think weighed heavily on me and in
a good way. And you know, it reminded me how
much I liked it.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Yeah, it's the only part where he departs from the
from the text to do anything that you know a
director is supposed to do.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Sure, well, yes, reinterpret and and and you know, yeah,
have have some something else to say beyond the original presentation.
Although I got to admit Sin City, I really enjoyed
the way Rodriguez you know, it's it's you know, he
just he just decided, Okay, I'm gonna make a movie
and put himself in this, you know slightly you know,

(58:41):
two color box and and allowed himself to shoot a
film that way. And you know, people who were like
I was surprised. Sin City too, I think should have
done better. I think it was mismarketed and it could
have been as simple as did you like sin City? Well,
here's more? Because it was.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
It was.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
It was a continuation and in the best way. I thought.
The only thing that didn't work for me was Josh
Brolin as and I forget the character's name now, but
the Clive Owen's character.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Right, Was there a third one? There wasn't a third one?

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Well not yet, I mean, and I don't know if
based on the you know, low performance of two, that
maybe there won't be a three. But yeah, I honestly,
like I said, did you see two?

Speaker 2 (59:22):
I didn't see two because I thought it was the
third one. It was I again this were I like
a difference of tone now, I mean this is this
is what that that tone is made for that story, right,
I mean this is it's a it's noir pestiche. It's
it's intended to be pestiche. So it does what it does.
It's just between that and the spirit and the thing,

(59:43):
it just all felt of a piece understood.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Now as we wrap up, I want to, you know,
let you promote of course, because you're a You're on
an excellent podcast yourself through MPR.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Oh yeah, every week come on pop Culture Happy Hour,
which is a roundtable discussion, usually stuff that has just
happened that week. We try to time it. It's it's
a lot of fun. And I've been doing that for
ooh boy, almost the years now, six years now. I
like you, but still.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Knobs, that's good. Six years is good. And no, it's
a good conversation always. What was the consensus. I didn't
listen to the Batman Superman review.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
The consensus was, unfortunately not not. We tried to get
off of it as soon as we could because we
just don't We just don't want to sit around and bitch,
moan and win. But yeah, it was it was. We
were pretty much all on the same page, unfortunately, because
I do like I think the conversation gets more interesting
when somebody disagrees. I was counting on my pal Chris

(01:00:42):
Klimick to run into the barricades and defend but nope,
I was.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
I was shocked on You know, some of the guys
that I podcast with Art and Franco, the Tiny Titans creators,
they loved or they didn't. They didn't loved it. They
they liked it, they liked it, and they both didn't
like Man of Steel, and especially Art Baltazar, who honestly
really gets Superman. I mean, and really, it drives me
nuts that DC doesn't give him a shot to write

(01:01:10):
a more adult story because he really gets the essence
of Superman. And he was just like, I loved it,
and I'm like really, and he goes, I kind of did,
and he goes, I'm gonna see it again to make sure.
But yeah, he goes, I really had a good time,
and he goes, you know, the little things didn't bother him,
and he's just like, no, you know, I think the
spectacle was enough for him. I guess, but it's interesting.

(01:01:31):
Jimmy Palmiatti wrote a positive review, and I mean, that's
the thing. A lot of people that I really respect
their opinions, and I'm like, wow, that's interesting. Again, I'm
not judging, but it's like, that's even more fascinating that
it is this kind of polarizing film that has gotten
these mixed reviews.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
The whole point of the book, John, is that there's
all these different versions of the characters out there. The
character's a version of these characters for you. I do
tend to map people who liked this movie with people
who were twelve thirteen in the nineties when image comics
and the death of Superman and all that stuff was happening, true,
because that's pretty much this. I mean, the presence of

(01:02:09):
doom today in this film was like, yep, okay, I
see what's going on here. Not for Glenn's This movie
is not going to be for Glenn's well, and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
You know, honestly, I think people do know, So I'm
not going to feel bad about spoiling. I don't know why.
I thought eventually we would get to the death of Superman.
I didn't think it would happen immediately in this film.
I thought, much like the story that played out in
the comics, we'd see Doom's day, maybe see the Justice
League try to beat Doomsday as a team and fail,
and ultimately, like in the comics, Superman's gonna have to

(01:02:39):
do this himself.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
And that's the thing. It's like, good Christ, it's the
second movie and he's dead. Yeah, what the hell is
going on? Good Christ? Am I you know in the
the are you're laughing too? Because yeah, it just and
that's why I don't want to like And again, this
is the kind of thing you talk about in the book.
As you say, I don't mean to judge, but it's
like I do. It's like I wonder, Yeah, what do

(01:03:03):
you like about Superman? That's my question. That's what I
would ask Zack Snyder is what do you like about Superman?
And and I really love to I don't know. I
just don't know if that answer how we answer it.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
If you come at at him saying that he doesn't
fit with the times, we have to change him to
fit with the times instead of find the resonance between
him and the times. Yes, and make him an example,
make him a hero, because I mean again, the film
was about the futility of being a hero, which is

(01:03:37):
you know, there's you could argue that that's realistic. I
would argue that that's nehilistic and depressing and it's not
what I go to my Flying Spaceman movies for.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
And also, yeah, I mean I was as people were
worried about the R rated version that's going to eventually
wind up on DVD and saying, how can you make
us a movie that kids can't see with Superman? And
I'm like, well, maybe he's Galahad surrounded by the absolute
worst world in the world, but his hope and brightness
will still carry him through. Let's see the movie. And

(01:04:10):
then we saw the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
And then we saw the movie, right, yeah, I mean
you know when when Affleck said, yeah, I'm not going
to take my kid to see it, It's like, okay,
well you're not. You're not going to take your kid
to see it. This is a movie about a guy
from Krypton and a guy in a batsuit, and you're like, no,
I think it's too adult.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
And therein lies the paradox of Batman and the rise
of nerd culture. In The Cape Crusade by Glenn Weldon,
I say, we're broadcasters, dude, we know how to put
a round, we know how to put a bow around
it when we need to and everything. But no, man,
great book, Congratulations on book two. And man, I don't
know how long your your experiment is going to take

(01:04:54):
to find out you know, where things lead and where
this this kind of fearless uh NERD who isn't persecuted
for liking D and D where it's going to take us?
But yeah, man, I look forward in our senior years
having this discussion, and shit, you are right. I didn't
think you were gonna say it, but you were right. Hopefully,

(01:05:15):
But dude, I hope hopefully. I don't know. I know
you're fifty to fifty for San Diego, but if you're there,
we'll we'll definitely say hello to each other.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
That would be great.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Excellent, Good luck with the book, and good luck as
always with Pop Culture Party on NPR. If it's not
on one of your do you have affiliates or is
it purely a podcast?

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
It's purely a podcast?

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Okay, excellent? Well that's all right there. We're in that
world of you know, on demand entertainment when you want it.
So when you're done listening to this episode, download pop
culture party and enjoy Glenn Weldon and his crew talking
about pop culture. But thanks dude, pleasure talking to me
as always.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Yes, my pleasure as well. Thanks man,