Rags Morales on Drawing the Boldest Superman Since 1938

In this 2013 Word Balloon conversation, artist Rags Morales discusses his pivotal work on Action Comics during DC Comics’ New 52 relaunch. Morales reflects on collaborating with writer Grant Morrison to redefine Superman for a new generation—depicting a younger, more grounded Man of Steel in his early years as a social crusader. The discussion explores the creative process behind redesigning the character’s look, the artistic challenges of working on such an iconic title, and how Action Comics helped set the tone for the New 52 era across the DC Universe.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Welcome back time again for word Balloon. The
comic book conversation show John Santras here reaching back to
twenty thirteen during the New fifty two of DC and
a great conversation I had with Rags Morales. Rags and
Grant Morrison were given the responsibility of bringing us Superman
a year one kind of story. And if you remember,

(00:22):
you know, back then Superman had the T shirt with
the S and kind of a short cape almost like
a towel like us kids would wear pretending to be Superman,
and jeans and boots among the you know, design attributes
of New fifty two Superman. Rags tells us about the design,
talks about collaborating with Grant, and I like Rags, I

(00:45):
just saw him at Fan Expo a couple of months ago,
and good dude. And I hope whenever his next project
is ready, that he comes back and does a new
talk with me. So in the meantime, enjoy this twenty
thirteen conversation with Rags Morales about the New fifty two
Superman on today's word Balloon. Word Balloon is brought to

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Thanks for listening and thanks as always for your support.
Rags Moralis, Welcome back to word Balloon. I can't believe

(02:33):
it's been, you know, at least four or five years
since we last spoke on video, but it's great to
have you back.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I believe it was in the twentieth century. Yeah, Hi,
thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Hey Man, congratulations on the Superman run. I think that
was really throwing the dice, and I think a very
bold move. What was it like when you know, tell
me the process of when you got the gig?

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, I I was just finishing up. Actually no, it
was after I had finished up a first wave with
Brian Isarella, and I was kind of bugging DC uh
because because to be honest with you, I'm under contract,
so they got to give me work and so nothing

(03:23):
was going on. I hadn't heard anything, and it's always
uh worrious I because the I mean, I'm in it now. Actually,
the worst thing you can do in this field is
being between projects. It's kind of like a forced forced
to part vacation.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
See, you don't know what's next right now?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, I kind of do. I'm waiting on the script, okay,
and uh and and so I don't know when you know,
uh it ever since I'm probably giving away a little
bit of trade secrets here. But when when when Time
Warner became more involved with DC, they've been They do
a lot of meetings, So getting in touch with your

(04:05):
editor is and always an easy thing to do. But
so at the time, I was doing a lot of
you know, kind of sniffing around, and uh, I kept asking,
I kept you know, calling different editors and and uh

(04:26):
they would film me a covery here, a cover there.
There was a time where they were seeing nothing but
covers out of me between first wave in action and
in fact I did I did a I don't know
how you would call it, but you know, like like
you put a bunch of covers together, it makes one
big picture. Sure, But this was done like in a

(04:47):
triangular fashion, which almost like pyramid, where you had the
first issue on the lower left, the second issue in
the lower right, and then the third issue at the
top in between the two, and it was it was
a green lantern one, okay, and I don't think it
ever saw a lot of day, at least I've never
seen it, okay, And uh, it's essentially it was a
bunch of all the green lanterns, you know, in a circle.

(05:08):
They're kind of like shaking their fists. And and the
third cover, uh, the first two would be that, and
then the third cover was Sceinstra floating above them like
like like an ascending god. And you know, and I
did that. I don't know if I've ever seen a
lot of day, but uh so anyway, so I was
just doing a bunch of these covers and and and

(05:32):
then you know, because you know, bility to be paid
after I got a bunch of these done. You know
the how Jordan cover, the the Captain Marvel cover with
the kids and the teenage kids in the foreground.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Was that for first Wave or flash point rather?

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, the flashpoint gotcha?

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Gotcha?

Speaker 2 (05:53):
And of course the green lantern ones. And I think
I did uh, I might have done another one. It
was a blur. So I went and I did this,
and I was like, okay, well, Uh, I made my
bills and they're not calling me. So I made I
made plans to to take take a trip up to
New Hampshire to see my kids. Cool and uh and

(06:16):
then out of the clear bloo. After all that, out
of the clear blue, I got a phone call from
Matt Idilson. He says, uh, he says, and then now
hold on, let me let me backtrack a little bit. Now.
Years prior to all of this, and uh, I believe
it was in Philadelphia, I was having dinner with with

(06:38):
Jeff Johns and his and his fiance and now wife Sonia,
and and and Jess my my fiance. We're all getting together.
We had you know, dinner, and we were just talking
about wanting to do Captain Marvel and I said say yeah,
and you know, we just like throwing our ideas and
and we're getting really stoked, and it was almost like
we were falling in love with each other, and it

(06:58):
was it had really good feeling. And I thought that
was what was going to be next. And I kept
bugging him, you know, I says, you know, I'm going
to be available, get that katam mall already. And it
never it never really came to fruition because you know,
I guess they got together and and and the the
the multi headed dragon that is known as the as
the uh, the writing conglomerate had gotten together and decided

(07:22):
to trash everything and start all over again. So when
I got the final call from from Matt Iilson, I thought,
I was you know, that's what I was going to hear.
I was gonna do Captain Marvel. You know, I had
no idea they were going to do fifty two. No, no,
nobody was saying anything. And he says, how do you
like to do action comics? And I'm like, action, that's

(07:43):
not Captain Marrow. I want to do Shazam Man and
uh uh and and he says uh. He says, I
check it out. We're doing something called fifty two and
we're starting all over from Michie one. We want to
give you action comic with Grant Morrison. I'm like, oh,
that's nice, But what happened to capt Tomorrow? You know,

(08:07):
that was my first initial reaction, you know, but then
after after, after a few minutes, and it sank in.
I realized I was like, he just gave me action
comics from the first issue. Wow, you know, and and
I went on Facebook and and then I started getting

(08:28):
excited about the prospect. And then then it dawned on me, oh,
by the way, you get to work with Grant Morrison.
So I was just like, oh boy, you know. And
then that went on Facebook and you probably I don't
know if they if they have an archives, but you
can go back a couple of years and you see
I'm just saying oh, boy, boy, boy, boy boy, and
all the way down my page, and and that was it.

(08:51):
And I was like busting to talk about it, but
I couldn't say a word, and so I told my
best friend. Of course, I told Jess, but and I
think I told some family members because they don't give
a crap. But it's comics, you know, they don't know.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Well, as far as getting the Superman gig, tell me
about I mean, obviously, one of the big things and
the most striking things that we saw when we first
saw the images in previews was you know, t shirted, jeans,
work shoes, cape almost looking like a towel tied around
his next Superman.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
I loved that.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, yeah, tell me about that. Where did that come from?

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah? Well, it was all part of the plan initially
when there's that one now famous illustration I did of
of Superman half in shadow lifting up a rock. Yeah,
and at the time I had no clue what anything
was being done about what. But they said, listen, they're

(09:48):
having a hard time. And they said to me, they're
having a hard time the brass trying to envision Superman
in a T shirt and jeans and work boots, and
and they're not looking silly. Can you know, could you
do something and let us know what we're going with it?
So sure you know? And to me, look that there
are certain archetypes in this industry that are that are unavoidable,

(10:12):
and one of them is Little Labner.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
You know, cool, absolutely out caps great characters.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
You know, you can't go wrong with riffing off of
some of that. You can't go wrong with riffing off
of Hal Foster, off of Prince Valiant. You know, you
can't go you can't go wrong riffing off of off
of Kirby, you can't go wrong riffing off of Dicko.
So when when that hit me, the first thing that
popped in my head obviously was was a Little Labner

(10:41):
And and I you know, I saw the meanness of it,
you know, of that character, you know, just put a
cape on him and boom. It's basically what I did.
And of course, you know, I had to make it
a little bit more realistic, but in that in my mind,
that was part of it. Elvis was part of it.

(11:04):
Oh and Steve Reeves.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
I wanted to go Hercules, Hercules of the fifties for
people who don't know who Steve Reeves.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, the Old Sword and I'm aging, I'm sure in my.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Age, I'm with you man work.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, the Old Sword and Sandals, stuff that we used
to watch on Saturday afternoons. So uh, that all just
kind of like just kind of threw together, you know,
in my head. And of course the yeah, I wanted
I never wanted to do ever Superman only because I
really thought and I mentioned this before and people really

(11:40):
flipped out when I said it, because it was actually
a conversation I had with with Jeff he was writing
Superman at the time, and he was working with Gary
Frank Jeff John's and and I says to Jeff, it says,
it says, says, what do you guys do? And you're
just kind of hanging out after the show they got
back from dinner. He goes, oh, we just talked about Superman. Superman.
Superman sucks and he says, well, who's better? I said,

(12:02):
Batman's better, you know, he says, you know, because Batman's
down on Earth, Superman is, you know, he flies around
their earth, he spins backwards. You know, of course I'm mixing,
you know, my mythology. I'm aware of this, but you know,
he got to the point and I remember a Superman
in DC Comics Presents where he's pushing the Earth back

(12:25):
into orbit. Beautiful drawing by Jose Luis Carcihilipez, one of
my favorites, one of my one of my seminal cornerstones
of my upbringing in terms of style. And I looked
at it, says it's a great drawing, but a really
stupid idea. And and and that's when it dawned on

(12:47):
me that he's no longer just having bullets bounce off
of him, he's no longer having anvils falling on his head,
and he's not being affected. He's you know, he's now
pushing planets back into orbit. And from that point on
it became painfully apparent to me that they're running out
of ideas. Interesting that that is just more more, more more.

(13:10):
And by the time the fiftieth anniversary came around, what's
left to do, Well, let's get him married. We can't
ground him physically, we can't ground him, you know, with
his powers, So let's ground him emotionally, you know, let's
ground him with the female. And you know, I got

(13:31):
tired and you would read it a couple of times
of him just wimping out and Low was having to
remind him he's Superman.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Very interesting, sure, and that to me sucked.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
I'm sorry it sucked. You know. Look when whenever, whenever,
there's a reason why happily ever after after ends the
story because it's done. You know, there's no more teeth
left for the hero. Absolutely, and he's gone on and
now he's going to go ahead, and then had the
Son of you know, and then they eventually start all

(14:04):
over again.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Sure, absolutely so well and I and I remember jaking
he've been doing a Son of Superman and everything elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Exactly, thank you. So you know, it just got to
the point it's just like it was, really it had
lost its way. You know, he's no longer uh, the
hero of the oppressed. He's you know, everybody's dad, you know,
and whenever he got together the group of heroes, there's
always that that obligatory oh that Superman, Oh my god,

(14:30):
like they've never saw him before, you know, like they've
only read about him. And and then he's always browbeating them.
You know, you guys, you know you're being a little
bit too rebellious. And it's just I got tired of it.
So I completely disengaged. And I didn't you know, so
when I first got action, you know, I was a
little concerned about that. But then when I heard that

(14:52):
they were going to start all over again, and that uh,
and I know, and I'll get back to the Jenis
and T shirt, going back to to the roots. That
says wow, Because the last time I actually really fully
appreciated Superman in my older years, after I had ready
dismissed him, was when they brought back the Flesher cartoons
and they had him on VHS. Yep, and you can

(15:13):
get him for five bucks in your supermarket.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, because they're in public domain. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah. So it was so I snagged him and I'm
watching you know, the Bulleteers and and and and it
was at the Big Dinosaur when I can't remember the titles,
but it was a big dinosaur and one that came
back and said it was just so much fun, you know.
And and you're looking at him and he is being
affected by lightning and it hurts like hell to run

(15:39):
into it to an oncoming train, you know, but because
you're Superman. He doesn't do it easily. He does it
because it needs to be done, and he doesn't with
great effort, and you really appreciated him all over again.
And that's stuck in my head. And I love watching
him like land on a building, you know, and actually

(16:00):
have to and push himself off instead of floating up.
You know. Yes, So that to me is those are
the images of miss you know, he was less super
more man, you know, but doing super heroic things, and
that's when it was that's when he got excited again.
So the idea of going back and stripping down the

(16:22):
indepodence and bringing them back to basics really resonated with me.
And so you know, the whole idea of him hitting
that train in the first issue absolutely, and the ripple,
by the way, I kind of stole that from Superman Returns,

(16:42):
you know, with the plane. You know, he's like pushing
up against any kind of ripples.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the notes kind of Yeah, because
of the impact. Absolutely I stole that. But you know,
Gabe Hartman came up with that scene for the movie
and he wouldn't mind hearing that, So that's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Well, thank you Gabe. He did job and I hope
I did it justice because that that was the idea.
I was the inmputus behind that, you know, and and
and look it as the impact, There's only so much
you can do with those little excitable lines that kind
of come in from all sides of the panel to
have you know, physics work for you like that really

(17:19):
added to the impact. And I love that little owl
you know as the blood's coming out of his ear,
that that gave him. So yeah, that's you know, stripping
him down was absolutely awesome. And I have to apologize
by the way back to the costume. I have to
apologize about the cape. You know, people like goofing because
I got the little cape. Now, I didn't make it

(17:41):
too small because I heard and it was it was
told to me that it's his baby blanket, right, So
I'm like, okay, how can I make this work? And
I'm thinking, okay, well, there was a time a Superman's
cape kind of just basically made it to mid calf,
you know where basically if you saw it from the back,

(18:02):
the top line of his boot would line up with
the bottom line with the hem of his cape. Sure,
so I was like, okay, well if I kind of
pull it back just enough, but I'll make it look stupid.
And that was the intent. But then, you know, as
as they finally give me information down the line, and
I wish it would have had a lot of this

(18:23):
information if we went along. I'm not even sure if
Grant had it altogether yet. But eventually it was you know,
the story was expanded. It wasn't a baby blanket. It
was his father cape that was made into a baby
blanket that he took back. So I was like, oh, okay,
And then somewhere, through the magic of comics, the cape
grew that's all right, And I believe I was slowly

(18:47):
by the time he gets to issue seven, I was
slowly bringing the ham line down. And then by the
time that he got his costume on, you know, the
whole Kryptonian armor, and oh, by the way, it does
make sense that it is impenetrable, because when you have
a red Son and you're not super powered, you would
need something to protect your ass and gone back. So

(19:08):
that's why it's indestructible, all right, not because it's no
when every vision did going under a yellow Son at
the time, I'm pretty sure they made it just for
the red Son anyway. So and then you know, magically,
through the magic of comics through the cape just kind
of grew. So I kind of like trying to find
the right spot where it kind of made sense that

(19:28):
people would stop noticing it, you know, or if they did,
you know, it was justified. You know, maybe the kick
throw with the costume, I don't know, So I was
just trying to figure it out along with everybody else.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
But that's you know, I thought that kind of informed
the character as well, in that he really did just
put this together, you know, as he was going. So
it almost was a look in process rather than a
definitive idea of I'm going to fight crime and I'm
going to do this, and it really was more like
that's the great thing is the title is action, and

(20:00):
you always felt like as much as he was getting
into his powers, as well. His mind was racing as well,
and you you just felt this kind of constant momentum
from Clark Kent as he became this other personally.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
You know. And and I don't know how intentional that
particular incident was, but I do recall that you're absolutely
and thank you for picking up on it, because then
that means we did our job. I did recall that
Grant had written that he wanted this initially says it's

(20:33):
it's action comics. Let's make everything action. Let's make everything
fast paced cool, and uh and you know we had
done that. You know, there was always something going around
in the next page.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
So that's excellent, man.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
And then what about you know, every era has had
its opportunity to not only you know, define Metropolis and
his backdrop, his city backdrop, but also Krypton. Well wait,
you know, before I get the Crypton, I'm curious about,
like how much you looked at Schuster's original run.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Oh absolutely, yeah, Now that was all part of it.
Like I said, you know, you go back to it
to Fleischer.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Right, and the work they did not too many, not
too many years after the initial creation. Really, I mean
the action one is April of thirty eight and the
cartoon started in nineteen forty.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Right right right, So you know it's all just when
you redo something, the intent is to make it new
and familiar at the same time. And so when you
go ahead and when you start approaching it being familiar,

(21:42):
it's all about going back to the roots. It's something actually. Yeah,
another cornerstone of my development was Michael Golden, and I
would every time he would I would always glomb over
every time he would do a character I hadn't seen
him do before, because there was always something original about
it in his own style. But at the same time,
it harkened back to the original concept of the character itself,

(22:04):
very cool and and and and so that's where I
really kind of picked up on it. And I guess
I might have been in junior high at the time,
and and so it's it's and then somewhere down to
the line, I heard somebody say familiar and you and
that made sense. So that's that's the way I tried
to approach it, you know. So yeah, you go back

(22:26):
to to to uh, the original shooter, and you know,
you think brust the crab and all that, but you
know he had that's you know, he had that that
that that kind of Elvis quality too. When Elvis smiled,
you know, he kind of had that a little bit
of a Superman smile to us. So it was like,
you know, Elvis kind of you know, that's how Elvis
got in there. And and uh, you know, and and

(22:48):
of course Steve Reeves is you know, the most gifted
genetically human being I've ever seen, just in terms of
just a stature and and and physique and just just
you know, great looking, you know, perfect heroic type.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
It's amazing too that a guy there's another guy, another
Reeve or Reeves that even though he never played Superman,
had that building everything. And it's just so ironic that
all these guys had these variations of that name at all.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
If they ever do another Superman movie, and I saw
her to cut you off, but anytime they should ever
do Superman movie, they should just they should just cast Reeves.
Don't just go on a phone book, you know and
get every George and Sam and Saul and and you know,
just have them come in and and just you know,
see what, see what you got, you know, because that's yeah,

(23:40):
you know, because between George and Christopher and Steve you know,
how much better can you do that? Reeves? That genetic
gene pool is incredible. So yeah, they you know, all
that just kind of like, you know, just kind of
came together. And you know, and if you look back
at at Shuster, you could pull a little Elvis out
of there, you little Steve Reeves out of there. You

(24:01):
can pull a little old Flash or Flash was just
stealing from Schuster. But anyway, it's just it's all kind
of part of the whole swirl. And so it just
it was that's just part of the template. Not difficult
to figure out. Really, you know, you just have to
have enough, you have to be old enough.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
I heard what about Clark hopefully get the kryp done.
And and because there's there's almost this where's Waldo to Clark?
Where he does kind of and that's the point of
the character to disappear in the crowd. And I felt
too that some of his early outfits that you had
in the first couple issues were absolutely where's Waldon?

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, yeah, well you know what's uh didn't wasn't it
Wade who did? Uh? It was a bulletproof birthright? Birthright,
that's the one. And that particular issues talk about slumping
and doing this that and the other thing with this
with his uh a physio physiology. Right, mm hm, that's
the first time I ever heard that of slumping, you know, yep,

(24:57):
because before it was just you know, you kind of like,
you know, taking a winking or no, this is only
you know, everybody else in the world's a dummy, but
you the reader, you know that Clark Kent, as much
as he looks like Superman, yeah, isn't really Superman at
this point, right, wink wink. And so when when we
when we did it, when we approached it, I don't

(25:20):
recall much being written about him other than yeah, other
than look, you know he's a blogger. Now you know,
he's not. He's not a brown shoes and tie kind
of guy anymore. He's uh, he's he's a kid. He's
in his twenties, he's in his early twenties, you know,
and he's just basically he's he's at the self righteous
age you know in your in your life where you

(25:40):
think you know all the answers, and you know you're
always fighting for the little guy because you are the
little guy. You know, you're trying to make a name
for yourself. In whatever chosen field you're doing, so you
can you can certainly associate yourself with the little guy.
So here he is, he's a blogger, and he's doing this,
and he says, says, okay, right, so he's kind of
put myself up what was I in twenty two, you know.
And and then you know, he says, just give him

(26:02):
kind of disheveled hair. And then there was a scene
where he's just kind of you know, ruffling up his
hair after he got done jumping off off of the
zeppelin and landing on the building. And there's like a
little piece of metal that pops out of his hair,
you know. And so he's doing that, and and so
I just went with it, you know. And and I
gave him the big round glasses because you can hide

(26:24):
behind big round glasses much more easily than you can
hide behind square ones. You know, you can get smaller
that way, which I think is why the original intent. Now,
maybe at the time, you know, during the nineteen thirty eight,
maybe those glasses were every day every common man's glasses.
But when you look back, I realized that that, you know,

(26:45):
you can get very large with those glasses. And and
and still looks right, whereas other shapes don't work that way.
And so so put giving him those big round glasses
and the hair, well, all of a sudden he started
looking like like, uh, like what's his name, Uh, Harry Potter,

(27:08):
and everybody's like Harry Potter. I was like, you know what,
that wasn't the intent, but all right, fine, Harry Potter. Okay,
that's cool, you know, And and and you know, and
in a way, yeah, you know, really when you think
about Harry Potter's a character, you know, he's also another
guy trying to become something. You know, when he starts
off at a very low level. He starts off at
level one, you know. And so it just it, you know,

(27:33):
it just kind of became all together, you know, as
it went. And then of course I went fought back
to birth right and and and the slumping of the
shoulders and and and so I was like, okay, you
know what, yeah, let's morph him. And I think even
even Grant hadn't hidn't hidden, hinted at at doing that,
and and you know, morphing and and just kind of

(27:56):
like he's like a physical actor, you know, and he
always has a baggy shirt on. He never has anything
that shows off his muscles. Yeah, you know. In fact,
it was my idea when at that one scene where
he's like waking up it was an Issue three and
he's waking up from his daring do having that dream
about Krypton, and you know, he gets uh A, Sergeant

(28:20):
Casey and and uh Blake, Detective Blake come bum rushing
into his into his little room, and Miss nick Lee
is there and she's like, you know, he's a good boy.
It was my idea to try to get him to
because that was challenging myself. They can make a muscle,
you know, in that in that flumpy shirt, and and

(28:43):
see if I can get away with hiding Superman still
and and I think you know, and and you know
you hide it with the expression, you hide it with
this that and the other thing. And there are times
where you could see Superman, you know, when I when
I wanted him, like the time, like at the time
when when when Miss Nicksley hands him his shirt and
jeans and she says, are you from another planet? And

(29:03):
he has that look like I'm busted, you know, but
you see Superman, you know, And it was intentional, So
you know, there's a way of morphing in and out
of it, which I really had a good time doing.
And I just absolutely loved, love, love, love the fact
that he was not in a shirt and a tie
and a button down shirt and tie, and he was

(29:26):
just a dude just hanging out, and it was like,
you know what, if you're gonna melt, that's how you melt. Now.
Back in the nineteen thirty eight, if you're gonna melt,
you're gonna mount in his shirt and the tie, because
everybody had that. Everybody had the fedora and the shirt
and the tie. So that's how you melted back then.
Now you know you're gonna mount into something that's going
to be not only are you like everybody else, you know,

(29:48):
but you're also at an age where you're gonna be ignored.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
Definitely.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
So I heard that worked, and I just thought it
was just the whole thing was brilliant and then disappointing.
Cast I'm glad we didn't touch Lowis, but he made
Jimmy cool. You know, we made him the contemporary, you know,
because for years, for years, we've been trying to do that.
You know, this is I don't know if aybody knows this,
but for years. I remember when I was doing Identity

(30:14):
Crisis and they had the scene of of of Jimmy
Olsen UH in the in the in the dark room
with with UH, with Perry and UH he's developing photographs,
and I remember specifically saying, try to make him cool.
We've been trying to make him cool for years. So
that's why he started having spiky hair, and he started
looking a little bit more buff, like you know, kind
of like when Carrot Top decided to work out, you know,

(30:38):
you know what I mean. And I so that's what
we were trying to do, trying to up him. But
you couldn't get out of my pal, you know, Jimmy Olsen.
You know, you couldn't get away from the bow tie.
You couldn't get away from the freckles and the and
the gosh, gosh, jolly, golly, Josh. Keep see, I don't

(31:00):
don't even say these words. They just don't come out
of my mouth very easily. So yeah, none of that
deeper stuff, you know.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Do you remember in the seventies during Superman Family, and
actually I think it might have even started in Jimmy
Olsen's own book when he was Mister Action and he
was more of an investigative reporter and less of you
know that. I mean they had features where he was
obviously the lead, and sometimes Superman would still swoop in
and save him, but a lot of times it was
Jimmy Olsen reporter. I mean, those were the stories, and

(31:26):
he would get himself out.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Of jat never whole point that you'd have to try
to make him tough, you know, the only thing you could,
you know, because he was always the sidekick, kid brother.
He was the kid bronner to Clark Kent. Absolutely, you know,
he was just like yeah, yeah, yeah, you're rough them
on this, so you put him my fingers through the hair, Yeah, kid,

(31:50):
go on, get out of here, yellow scamp next stuff exactly.
You know, That's who he was. So what we did,
you know, made even more sense. It was absolutely perfect.
You know. You you bring Jimmy up by bringing Clark
back down with him. Now they're even, now they're equal,
you know. Yeah, and and uh you know the only

(32:11):
thing that was that was awful was this justin bieber haircut.
They made me put him in. That is why I added.
I added to sideburns, you know, And and I couldn't
and I couldn't. A lot of people didn't. Let you know.
It's you know, I have a problem with noses because
I have a tendency to draw noses the way they appear,
not the way people want them to be. And and

(32:33):
so I gave I gave Jimmy Olsen more. I wouldn't
call it a shannage, but it's certainly much more of
an adult kind of nose as opposed to a perky
little because you put that haircut with a perky little nose,
he looks, he looks like he's twelve. Again, that's funny.
So yeah, I had to do things to up them up.
So I didn't give him the exact Bieber haircut, but

(32:58):
you know I had. I had to decide burns, and
they gave him a little bit more of an adult
kind of nose, and trying to work away from that,
I was not going back. I was not going to
go back with Jimmy. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Well, I'll always defend your nose as racks because everyone
remembers that classic moment in identity crisis at the funeral
where poor Ralph is just at his lowest point and
and you you, you know, his his little tick of
you know, sensing, you know, whenever he's highly emotional or
his spider sense, his nose would jerk around, and you

(33:32):
gave him that moment.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Man. You know, it was something that I had to
actually kind of fight for because well, you know, it's
been written and I think it's even in the back
of the of the hardcover of the collective books of
It where we had the interview with Brad and I.
Brad initially didn't write that, and I said, well, I

(33:53):
wanted to do, and I bugged and I bothered. See
because Brad Brad, Brad's a dictator. People don't see such
a nice guy and a book towards there.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Like gra that's a regular word balloon. This is very revealing.
Go on, please he jump on. You know, he thinks
he's God. Now, hey man, it's actually he is a
very very very sweetheart of a guy. But but he
is very specific on how he wants things. So when
I had to make suggestions, I had to make sure
that we were on the same page, and he was like, no, yes,

(34:26):
maybe let me see it. Those are basically the way
he would handle it, and and oftentimes he uh, I
would I would say about seventy five percent of the times.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
He let me do what I wanted to do. Cool,
all right, he was amiable.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
That's But how about Grant? How about Grant? Because I mean,
this is you know Grants. Grant's one of those guys
that seems to have very specific stories in mind, Grant Grant.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
The difficulty with Graham is he writes so much into
the story you don't know what to pull out because
you never know when you're gonna bring it back. You can, instinctually,
when you're working with with a writer, oftentimes you can
instinct instinctually notice the linear approach, and then you know
what's superfluous and what's not. Because I was I was

(35:11):
given something that a writer once told me when I
was a young, a young buck in the industry, and
he says, listen, if if if you want fifty people
in a scene, say you want a hundred, because you'll
never get a hundred. You'll always get fit. Unless you
get you know, unless you're working with George Perez or

(35:33):
you know, Frank Whiety or Jeff Darrow some one of
those other maniacs, you just you know, can't wait to
put a thousand people. But you know it's a it's
one of those things that that's a part of the trickery,
you know. So you know, if you know this, you

(35:53):
know then you know, okay, well, you know, you know
what's superfluous and what's not what's just being said for
the sake of being said. You don't know that with Grant,
and you know, you kind of you you're you're intimidated
by that, you know, because you end up putting in
so much into it not knowing what's going to be
taken out. So, I mean, I did an interview where

(36:14):
I was just saying, listen, a lot of writers, they
tend to write these scripts like they're seeing as as
a screenplay, like a movie like that, like in their
headed already directing it, and a lot of times they'll
put too many things going on in the same panel.
That's possible to lead the eye with all that information,
So you have to kind of like try to break

(36:34):
it down and that's when you start, you know, weeding out.
But with Grant, you don't know exactly what's being weeded
out because like I said, you know, he has the
tendency to Oh, by the way, remember that that that
little uh, you know, puppy dog pan on a hydrant
way back in issue too. Well, guess what he turns
out to be the supervillain haha ha. You know, so
it's like you can't ignore him, you know, so you

(36:56):
have to put it in. It's just a matter of okay, well,
you know what if if I can't fit it all
here on one pay one panel, because you know, you're
seeing it all in action, and I have to you know,
still frame it and and and try to you know,
get the right peak that maybe he doesn't work in
this panel here, but I can address it here in
this panel. So there was a lot of mixed matching,

(37:17):
uh and and and and just moving things around and
uh uh trying to get it all in and hope
and hope that anything you did forget or ignore either
he catches it and rewrites it, or or it's something
that that you're you were lucky enough that wasn't really
going to be necessary. So it was just, uh, he's

(37:42):
he's he's he's very very difficult, and that he's hard
to read in that regard, and it's it's his his
approaches everything, including the kitchen sink, and it works and
it works very well, and he wheezed it beautifully. And
that's why I think people of him, because you know,
he always has a way of just you know, catch

(38:04):
you off guard, and that's always exciting. I would love
to work with him again, would hate to do it
on a monthly book. It's a lot of a lot
of work, it truly is. And you know, and at
the time, I was, like I said, when I approached
this project, I was already on vacation, so when I

(38:25):
got back, everybody else was ahead of me. And and
of course I had twenty nine pages to everybody's twenty,
so I had an extra two weeks of work. So
which is why we kind of got thrown off off
off the pace initially. And then you know, I had
people writing about how how I was awf of issue too,
which wasn't the case. I was just giving up a

(38:46):
few pages. So it was just one of those things
that just, you know, it just it happens. And of course,
the way Grant wrote and and and a couple of
times he broke the twenty page rule, so you know,
every once in a while, uh like, for instance, the
last issue, the last issue turned into three you know, yes, yes,

(39:09):
you know, he couldn't he couldn't do it all what
he wanted to do all the one issue. So it
was just and that's why Brad Walker came in and
we started splitting the pages up, because you know, by
the time we got it all and we were looking
at it, it was just like, okay, well, you know it's
I'm gonna need a little help here. And and that's
when Matt Adilson and and Will Moss came in and

(39:30):
helped out. And they they said, okay, well you do this,
and they figured it all out for us. So it
was seamless. And and Brad and I we have similar
styles enough that it worked out pretty well.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
So I agree, and I and I do think that
Brad's work compliments your work in a in a very
seamless way.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, so you know that's cool.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
The uh what about Krypton, I mean, how you know again,
everybody puts their mark on Krypton. I mean, and and
you and I are close to the same age. I
remember Kurt Swan script on, I remember Wayne Boring script on,
John Earns scripton, very different, Dave Cochrane even we mentioned
Gary Frank and what you know, Jeff's collaborators almost had

(40:08):
that It's okay, I think to mix movies and cartoons
and everything else, because after seventy five years, they all
inform what we think of when we think of Superman,
because I don't think a Superman fan really does look
exclusively at the comics or the films, and I do
think it's all part of the mix. So yeah, so
what about your vision of Crypto.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
It wasn't mine.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
I locked out.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
That was Gineha Geha came in and, like I said,
you know, because we were having a hard time with scheduling.
Gene thankfully, thankfully, because he figured it out. I was
looking at the script and I couldn't make headge of
tails of that of Krypton the way Grant had wanted it.

(40:54):
And then when I saw what Gene had done, I
was just like, oh man, thank god he was available,
because this guy got it. He was smart. You know.
I'm just the dope over here trying to you know,
trying to make you know, you know, Clark had morph
you know, I know, this guy's coming in and he's
actually building a whole city, and just you know, I

(41:16):
looked at it and it was like, you know, it's
kind of like that wonderment when you're a kid when
you're staring at the Christmas lights. That's what felt like
to me. You know. I understand my apologies to to
to uh the kids who had Hanukah lights to look
at it, but.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
That would have been blue and white if if it
was all Hanakah driven.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Raised Piscopalian, so you know, I did. I did the
Christmas thing, and but it's like you get close and
he's staring at ornaments, and it's just you're in this
lost little world of just lights everywhere, you know, And
and and that's what I got when I saw Jean's work.
You know, it's just like wow, you know, that brought
me right back to being a kid and just staring

(41:59):
at lights and just like, you know, just the wonderment
of it all, you know. And it was just flat
out beautiful. I could never recreate it. I tried, you know,
there's a couple of times I had to put it
in a bottle and and I tried to recreate it.
And I didn't do it any dress this whatsoever. So
it was uniquely gene you know. And and and I
think I think it had a lot to do which

(42:20):
is his his sense of light source in the way
he just put it together. That plus he just you know,
his his his his, his background, and you could tell
it's it's it's it's very uh uh uh Japanese illustration
manga influenced, you know, a lot of ribbing, a lot
of a lot of things that seemed like almost crustacean,
you know, and in the in the in the layering

(42:42):
and the overlapping and uh so, yeah, it was very
difficult for me to do it instinctually, and thank god
he did because it gave me something to look at
as much as I tried and failed, but yeah, his
it was always it was Jane's work, and it's just wow,
great great stuff. It's wonderful, wonderful stuff.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
What about the fifth dimension? And Lord, vindictives are and
I'm saying it wrong, but.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah, you know what I think it I think it
was supposed to be vindictive.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Okay, I think it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah dt Vick.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, he's I'm trying to remember how it was described
to me, but you know, he he it was. It
was kind of described to me as flat two dimensional,
uh jeseus. I can't remember the term. But anyway, I
came away with it thinking in terms of of Picasso.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
The the the the idea of cubism is to know
that something's on the other side of the nose but
doesn't fit from your point of view. It's just drawn
there as if it's just as if as if it
exists on the other side. In other words, you're not

(43:58):
trying to do a three dimensional trying to make a
flat two dimensional. And you draw one eye and the
other eyes there because you know the other eyes there
despite the fact that it's not there. In that way, okay,
is the way you really kind of look at it.
And and of course it's all it's all you know,
has to do it with with color and shape and
and just and just blending elements of shape and and

(44:21):
and composition. So that's that's, that's the key to abstracts
because abstract you know, and and this is this is
for you young artists out there, and don't come to me,
all right, because a lot of guys come to me
thinking that the ship excuse my French, but they think
that they're hot stuff because they have the stuff that

(44:42):
they're gonna show me in their portfolio and they want
me to review it. They want me to to to
to pat them on the back and tell them how
wonderful they are. This is the key to style. Style
doesn't come first. Fundamentals come first. Fundamentals. Style is born
from fundamentals. If you look up in the dictionary, style
it's a mastery, okay, And you don't get there from

(45:04):
first base. You have to round the basis a few
times before you actually know what you're doing. So when
you go ahead and try to do the style, the look,
the line work, the hatch work that other people are
trying to do, learn to build it up first. Okay,
learn to build it up first. Learn your proportions, learn ddraftsmanship,
learn what a horizon line is for. And then after

(45:28):
you've done that a few times, then simplification and economics
becomes part of the process. And then and then style
becomes evident. And by then you're doing your own thing
and you know, not even bothering trying to emulate other people.
You know, it'll take you a lifetime. It does take
you a very long time to get there. I'm still
working on it, you know, absolutely. Man. So it's and

(45:51):
I've been doing this, you know, you know, I just
started my twenty fourth year, you know, so it's a
lot of work. And it's something that you should be
looking forward to because you think you're going to try
to knock out the world, you know, and kill the
world with this, with this great looking rendering. You know
you want rendering, Talk on the phone with a pad

(46:13):
and start doodling. That's rendering. That doesn't mean a damn thing. Okay,
when you build it from the from the inside out.
You know, when you learn to pull back from the
forest to the trees and stop looking at just the detail,
then you'll know yourself that you're an artist, okay. And
that's the whole point of abstract. Abstract is simplification, and

(46:34):
the only way to get there is by learning how
to do it right first. By the time, because it
was twelve years old, his father, who taught him how
to paint, gave him a supply to say, you know what,
you're a better artist than me. I'll quit wow, okay,
And he didn't become and it didn't start doing cubism
until he was he was like I think it was
in his forties or fifties. So you know, very chill

(46:55):
out with the style, because that's the whole idea. Now
that I got that flat chest, so yeah, the whole
thing was just you know, I was just trying to
do you know, kind of picasso esque, you know, just
kind of make it weird. And and you know, the
fifth dimension from yes, from a flat two dimensional point
of view.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
You know, that's outstanding that you know.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
And we've talked before, and you've you know, mentioned that
Neil Adams was was a great influence to you and
and and a and a great mentor to kind of
show you the way I think in some ways. I
don't know if did you work directly at Continuity or okay,
but he would just kind of see your work and
give you tips and stuff.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
By the time I met Neil, I was already But
the first time I met him, I believe, uh, I
believe I was. I was probably like ten years into
the industry at the time. Okay, so I was probably

(47:57):
around so I was doing an hour man or something.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Oh okay, okay, you know he he no, but you know, no.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
No, no, Actually before that, briefly, when I was with.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Valiant, Okay, I was gonna yeah suggest that because he yeah,
because then he.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Was doing he was doing the continuity stuff, and you
know he uh, you know, we we kind of you know,
you know, we we we we chatted a couple of times,
but I never really got to know him. I still
really don't know him after all these years. But uh
he was always you know, you know, nice, you know,

(48:37):
but I remember And this was the reason. This is
at at a convention recently, he says to me, he says,
start using photos more. And I said, Neil, the photos.
You know, you know, I don't want to be dictated
to you. I mean, look, I do enough free research
and and and and looking at things. I've got books,

(49:00):
I've got picture books and everything like that. Oh a
great tip too, by the way, for aspiring comic book artists.
When you go to the bookstores and grab them for
their rogone because borders has disappeared, but you want to
go to the bargain bin, you get tremendous reference material.
I just got a book about the anatomy of of

(49:20):
of army tanks and a book in a book of
check this out book of Uniforms of of of of
military uniforms through the ages. I'm prepared for any any
war time scenario.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
That's excellent.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
So yeah, I just picked terrific books. So check out
the bargain book section, you know, where they drop the price.
Perfect for artists. Absolutely, there's more pictures, less words, and
at a good price anyway. So so so with the
Neil's telling your more pictures pictures, right and and and
so I'm thinking, you know, you know, I don't like

(49:56):
using a lot of photographs. I like having photographs of
the spire imagination. Other than that, I really but he's
more of a stickular. He likes to do more of
of you know, he would be out there with a camera.
I would assume, I don't know this to be a fact,
but I would assume he's out there with a camera,
taking a shot and bringing it back to the table,
and which probably hearkens back to his days as as

(50:19):
an ad artists working for the agencies. So and it
makes absolute sense, you know. But I'm I'm trying to
build things from the inside out, like I like, I
like I preach, and so working awful photos in that
way is foreign to me. You know, it's not. It's

(50:40):
not the way I process information. It's not the way
I'm much more methodical.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Okay, so go on, so and then I'll.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yeah, so so you know that was you know my
encounters with with Neil before that though, and this was interesting.
Elliot Megan was one of my first editors. He was
my I believe it was my second editor. Barbarakisa was
my first editor. So he brought me into the industry
and she gave me Forgotten Realms with for TSR. And

(51:12):
Elliott then became editor after I think she left to
do I think she went to do went to quit
editing to become a freelancer at the time, which is
not uncommon. Happened to a lot of people in the industry.
A lot of people come from freelancer and become editors
and then vice versa. And and so Elliott came up
to me and and Elliott's one of my favorite people
in the world.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Me too, Man, go on, please because you know you're
gonna be on the same episode as Elliott.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
O cool, Hi, Elliott, how you doing? And and and
so he says to me, he says, uh, this is
he looked at me and had like all beaming and
shit like that, like oh, he's in a good mood.
And he says, you know, uh, and you know he's
in you know, Elliott and as beaming as Elliott as
can be. Because he talked to me. He's always looking

(51:58):
like he's thinking about something and somewhere else, you know,
his mind is. You know, he always looks like he's
lost in another world and he's trying to reach you
through that world as he's answering your questions. But he's
he looks at me and he says, uh, he says,
you know. And he has this great picture by Neil
Adams on his wall in the office and it's and

(52:19):
it's in four a four point perspective Superman flying straight
at you, and you know, he's all completely foreshortened, and
all you see is basically his shoulders and his hand
coming atching his face, and then behind him is a
building and he's got a vanaging point at the top
where you can see the building going up into the sky,
the vanation point of it going down into the ground,

(52:41):
and then from the two sides it's just really warped
building in the background, which is brilliant. I love that piece.
And as he's telling me that, you know, Neil Adams,
he complimented you, he likes you to work, and I'm
looking at this picture and I really, are you kidding me?
That that's like my first love you know, you know,
he's the guy that got me on my way. He

(53:02):
basically dictated how I looked at other artists and what
I should be looking for, which is why it took
me years and years and years to finally appreciate and
understand Kirby. But you know, Neil was just like, you know,
from illustrated point of view, and then you have Sparo
and Carcilo Pez and all these other and Beshema and all
everybody else, right, so and and and so he's like

(53:22):
he's telling me this, and I'm like completely flabbery. Guess
that first of all, that it's somebody it's like and
as Elliot would tell you, it's like growing up and
playing with Captain Kangaroo. Yeah, you get this compliment from
that man. As I'm staring at that brilliant picture and
feeling very small at at the same time, you know,

(53:46):
it's almost like, you know, you know, yeah, here here's
ex caliber, young Arthur and what kidding me? You know,
it felt like that moment to me, you know, like
all of a sudden, you know, and then I walked
down and now it's just like, as it hit me,
I'm coming out of the building and I'm like all
smiles and everything like that, and I was just beaming

(54:07):
after that point. But uh yeah, so that was the
first time I heard anything about Neil Adam said anything
after that, and then it was then it was, you know,
the little tedd of Tay when he was continuity. I
think he might have been trying to steal me. Maybe
I don't know. I kind of hope, so, you know,
it kind of makes me feel good if he did.
And then after that, uh, you know, we kind of

(54:29):
you know, we met at the Mocha and and uh
doing cool thing for uh for for Irwin Hasten.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Oh wow, that's great. Oh when when h was Neil
making his documentary. I know, Irwin, for people who don't know,
is the creator of Wildcat, Wonderful, Golden Age creator.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
He made the comic strip Dondie.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
He's a really one of the and the sweet man too,
a great guy and.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
He's uh he also taught at the Cuba School, so
I knew Irwin reports to do the Cuba School and
so well, no, I believe it was just after he
had been done with the documentary and we all we
sat there and we watched it. It was kind of neat,
you know, come with the camera and he's got the
plants and he's like, oh, hi, Neil, how are you.
He starts talking about the industry of what he's done

(55:13):
with it. But so we were, yeah, we ran into
there and you know, and you know, we kind of chatted.
But with Neil has been kind of touch and go.
But recently, when I was in Miami, he and I
we got together. We had dinner and you know, his wife,
and I met his one of his sons, and and
and his son's fiance and you know, it was it

(55:35):
was great. But but but probably before that, the funny
story he was like, you know, so he's trying to
tell me about he walks up to me and it's
at a party, and of course it's cocktails, and he
looks at me and he walks up to me. He says,
you know, I forget about it. You're drinking, and he
walked away, and I'm like, but Neil, good tell me, no,

(55:59):
I'm a happy drunk.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
So I never found out.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
No, I never found out what he wanted to tell me. Hilarious,
And they never told me in Miami. So I guess
it's you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Well, I was going to, I wondered, because every time
I talk to you, both video and audio, you always
bring up these wonderful points for artists. And I was
going to ask, if, uh, you know, and you went
to the Kubert School and everything, would you would you
ever want to teach even as informally as the famous
chalk talks that.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Okay, my teachers actually had me teaching classes for them. Wow,
our teachers, because I had acquired a certain amount of
information that they never heard of. You know, they didn't
understand the principle of of of of the eight head figure.
They didn't know the proportions of the guidelines, which was
shocking to me.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
You know, there were these people knew everything about our history,
they knew everything about color theory, they knew about composition,
and they could tell you who heart and whose heart
did what, but they can't break it down for you.
So they had me do it for them. So I've
been teaching since I went to high school. Shoot, when
I was five. When I was not five years old,
but I was probably in the fifth grade. I was

(57:16):
giving lessons for five cents because I would pick up
the Treasury edition of Superman. Yes, and in the back. Hey,
kids draw Superman.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
I loved us.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
In a couple of minutes, you know, I had it
all figured out, at least I thought I did. I
don't know what the hell I was doing, but I
had enough that I was actually charging people to teach
them how to draw. And and none of them wanted
to have you. They thought I was just gonna wave
a magic want they'd become artists, you know. And I've
always been, you know, the artistic, you know guy. I was,
you know, voted most artistic in high school and you

(57:51):
know I was Miss missus Staubach taught me. Nxon Nixon
Elementary School, Landing, New Jersey was where I went school.
And she's actually the cousin of Rogers fall Back, Oh wow.
And she was the first one to really get my parents, uh,
pointing me toward an artistic career. Now. My father wanted

(58:13):
me to play baseball, and I played baseball from the
time I was a years old. When I was a
freshman in high school, and the day I came up
to him and said that I think I had enough,
you know, I came out I was going to I
want to try out for the JV team. And it
was March and it was freezing and I had my
mint and it was too cold to play, and I
was like, you know what, I just don't give a
shit anymore, you know.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
So I went home.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
I told that he was He's really disappointed. Said that
you could have gotten, you know, an athletic scholarship. I says,
I know, and that was a pretty good ball player.
But I was like, yeah, dad, but you know, I
can also get an artistic scholarship too. And it actually
kind of worked out because of Cuba, school at the
time was not expensive. It was like going to college,
so it helped out. And both my parents helped me

(58:56):
with my first year, and then I paid for a
part of my second and and and you know, that's
how I went through school. But anyway, I was teaching
then from the time I was five years old and
in high school. So I've always had an opinion, you know,
a very opinionated person. I realized this. I realized I
have a tendency to tell people how to live and
uh and and so I have this hankering, yes, absolutely,

(59:21):
to teach. In fact, Jess's mother Uh works at a
school for for for troubled youth for kids with you know,
tough backgrounds, you know, maybe they've been abused a little
bit and and uh, and there's been a couple of
times I went back there and I show them, you know,
drawing and breaking things down and and I'll do a

(59:42):
panel for that, or I'll do a page real quick.
And it's just mostly just sketch work really just you know,
it's nothing really detailed. But they're really amazing to see
that the hand jive. People get knocked knocked out by
the hand jive. Oh, you work so fast. You wouldn't
say that if you saw me trying to draw a page,
you know, because it's very precise at that point. But
they were really knocked out by the hand drive and
they like it. And so yeah, you know, in fact,

(01:00:06):
I found out that after twenty years in the field,
you can get an honorary Masters. And so I'm from
who from a college if you can find out, there's
certain colleges that have a program that you can get
to honorary masters. And while you go in there, you
could also take courses and other courses there too for free.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Yeah. So in fact, I have a friend of mine,
my buddy Ian Dorian, who teaches in college and at
the Cubre School. He has clued me in that, yes,
this is a viable thing that after so many years
in industry you can get it honorary masters and you know,
which makes sense because after twenty years, you better know

(01:00:45):
what the hell you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
You know, understood, understood.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Well, that's the thing, man, it always seems and you
you do seem to you know, you definitely know what
you're doing. And I mean it's evidence in your storytelling
and and your your choices. But that's the thing I
thought you were able to communicate very simple and I
go back to the video that we did when you
were talking about where the eye naturally falls on a
cover and why why it's important for a certain And

(01:01:09):
these are my Layman terms. Quadrant, the lower left or
the lower right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
I keep saying lower light lower.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
It's actually it's it's just it's just north northeast of center.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Like I said, if you draw, if you have you
have a square page, okay, or your your your your
image area, your live area, whatever you want to call it,
the part where you're doing or drawing, and have the border. Okay,
you draw a line from the upper left hand corner
to the midway point of the of the right side
of the page. Okay, and then you draw another line
from the upper right hand corner to the lower left

(01:01:45):
hand corner, and where they intersect is called the golden area.
That golden area is where they lie is the eye
as it pans over. If you have like a magazine
rack and people that just kind of scams scouring the
the the pages as they go across it, naturally falls
in that area. And if you look at advertisements, go

(01:02:05):
ahead and and sit in a subway, look at magazine covers,
look at the ads, and you'll find that more times
than not, that area is where a lot of the
prominent information is being put.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
That's fantastic, that's great, man. Well, that's what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
And it always seems like after a few years there's
a new crop of artists and they don't have, you know,
like you say, they're they're kind of brought in and
they're missing they're missing the basics, they're missing the fundamentals
and stuff like that. So, yeah, I hope if DC
hasn't thought of that, Uh, it always seems like you've
you've got the right knowledge to pass on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Well, I would I would love to. Actually, that's that's
the plan once I become not marketable anymore, which I
hope is never the case here here, but there is,
like there's a time when when styles supersede you. And
that's one of the reasons why I cling to a
classic style, because it never really dies. It eventually comes black,

(01:02:59):
it comes back. So if if if you hadn't heard
of me in fifteen years, which was the case until
I did at any crisis, well I could thank Alex
Fross for that, because while everybody was doing the McFarland jive,
he was laboring and bringing back a classicism, Yes, sir,
that absolute, and I kind of jumped onto that bandwagon

(01:03:21):
and had a second part of my career. So one
of the reasons why you do a classic sense is
because it always comes back to basic mess on point
or another, and all all the art forms are like that.
So that's why I, you know, that's why I chose,
you know, to do what I do and sometimes you know,
and it's not that I can't do other stuff, of

(01:03:41):
course I could, you know, it's just a matter of
habitually reminding myself I'm in this style and I could
do something like a Brian Stelfrieze, you know, or somebody
of that, which it's a bit more simplified, you know
what color is or Sprouse. I love Chris Brouse, you know,
I look at Chris brows the back the backup issues,

(01:04:03):
the backup stories now of days are doing for action comics.
I just look at them all day long. I just
it's just so beautiful. And I could go in that direction.
I would like to, But you've invested in one thing
and that's what you're known for. And sometimes, you know,
changing things in midstream is not the necessarily thing to do.
Maybe it's something I do kind of like like well,
Ari Dickey talks about the knuckleball. It's a pitch of desperation.

(01:04:25):
You know, you've tried other things. It doesn't work anymore.
It's a pitch of desperation. So maybe I'll eventually try
to you know, maybe I'll change my name.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
That'd be awesome, that'd be hilarious.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Start to Reginald more And and and you know he's
the one doing the new thing. You know, I don't know,
but the thing, you know, it's it's that's the kind
of you know, it's it's a concern you know that, Yeah,
you know, what are you going to do when when
the industry kind of passes you by and it happens,
you know, and you kind of hope that you have

(01:04:58):
enough of a fan base that's uh that you know,
you can do prints, you can do the sketchbook thing,
you can do the convention tour. It still managed to
make a decent living. I just hope that I don't
have to have to do that until after I'm done
with my child support. But I understood, you know, and
you know and you know so, but yeah, getting back

(01:05:20):
and maybe getting an honorary degree and teaching, absolutely sure,
why not. You know, I've had thoughts about doing ebooks.
I've had thoughts about doing uh, you know, video series
for the Internet and things like that. But sure, you know,
it's one thing at a time, you know, because I'm trying.
I have you know, I've got Rags against the Machine
dot net and I sell prints there. I have an

(01:05:42):
Etsy store that sell prints. You know, I try to
be out there and communicative with the audience. But it's
not easy when you know, when you when you spending
fourteen you know, ten fourteen hours a day doing a page.
So I don't have the time to invest in those
things yet trying to you know, right now, I have downtime,

(01:06:05):
but I'm you know, it's also tax season. I'm trying
to clean up her video. But yeah, it's it's just
you know, one thing after another and you know, doing
the proper thing at this proper time, so, you know,
because I can't spread myself too thin. I need to
concentrate on one thing at a.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
Time, understood.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
And I'm keeping you up late so we can wrap up,
But I want to ask quickly, Uh, what what conventions
might we see you at this I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Doing Munich and I really wow, yeah, no, I you know,
I went to I went to Spain. Last year, I
went to Barcelona and I went to I did only
the three conventions I did. I did the Barcelona tour,
and then from there we did we went to we
went to Germany and went to Leipshig and we did
that convention and they were great because they kind of

(01:06:50):
took us all over. I went to you know, East Berlin,
so I checkpoint Charlie. It was fun, wow, and I
had such a great time and and the panel were
well received and they invited me back. So I'm like
absolutely sure.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
You know, what's what's the German convention? Like before we
get off Germany for a second, Yeah, how is it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Well, I've only been to the one in Leipsig, but
and it was kind of small, you know, it's kind
of a small space. But they're very very they're very enthusiastic,
uh when you go out there and do this, do
the thing. And Spain was the same way. They were
pretty enthusiastic too. You know their convention. You know, you

(01:07:35):
have like the convention hall, you know, and maybe you
see and like you say, you know, the say San Diego, Philadelphia,
New York or something like that, and you know, in
the immediate area there's always like a couple of of
you know, maybe some banners saying you know, Comic Con
you know, hanging off of something like that. In Spain.
I'm sorry that Spain. In Germany they had these huge

(01:08:01):
propertly like like of your covers. Oh wow, that stood
that had to stand like about seventy feet high, you know.
And it was because it was a plaza, you know,
just outside of of the of the convention and they
had like all these like fifty two covers everywhere and
everything like that. So that was wow. I had not
just stand next to one of them and took a

(01:08:22):
picture of it. But now I love Germany. Every town
has its own beer, you know, and you wake up
with beer, you go to bed with beer, you know,
and and it was so much fun and I really enjoyed.
So I'm doing Munich. Outside of that, I really haven't
committed anything, you know, I have I have my kids

(01:08:43):
to consider, so I don't want to you know, summertime,
I to spend as much time with them as I can,
so I try not just you know, more myself out
thin with the convention. So I might do another one,
but definitely Munich and that'll be That'll be at the
end of May and getting at June.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Okay, man, all right, well you know we do have
word Blue listeners in Germany, so so Munich fans be
be happy that RAGS was coming.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Yeah, So that and I had and I have my
phone app with the with the interpreter, so I can
I can probably try to sound even more stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Are what other American creators were there last year? And
if you know who's going to be there this year? Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Well we went well he well he wasn't an American.
Uh but but gm Mars he was doing the Catwoman.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
Oh, sure, of course he was there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
He's actually he's actually a cattle in the uh the
southern part of Spain near France. He's from there, gotcha.
H Scotty Young. Yeah, I hung out with him and
his wife and we had a good time. A really

(01:09:52):
good guy.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Liked him absolutely. Yeah. No, he's a local guy. He's
downstate from me and used to be in Chicago. So
I know Scotty very well.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
That's what Scotty was the only other American there. Oh
oh yeah, George Pratt was there, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Yeah. I spent five five minutes kissing his ass, and
and if he was taking away from me his entourage,
I had to go and do something. So but yeah,
you know, it's that was about it. This year, Mila
Minauer is going to be there. I can't wait to
meet him. Crumb's going to be there, holy cat. Yeah,

(01:10:25):
Robert Crumb's going to be there. I can't wait to
meet him. A great Hillebrandt will.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
Be there, fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Ohwi Chikin's going to be there too, so we get
to hang out with Edward. Yeah, I love howards me too, man,
good that you keep good company.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be be fun. We're gonna
hang out and I hope there's just some more stupid
stories for you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Half happily man, you know, seriously, when you when you
know what you're doing, because again I appreciate it, and
it's late your time, so I don't want to keep
you up, but uh, this this was great.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
What's that freelancer? I'm always up.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
I understand that too, but but yeah, let's if you
don't mind, in a few months or something'd be great
to touch back.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
I won't wait six years like last.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Yeah, yeah, we're favorite. Let me no sooner?

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Ye oh no, it'd be my pleasure. And really, hey,
keep it up, man, honestly, great stuff. Really looking forward
to the climax of your action run, but it's really
been great. Congratulations on putting energy and you know, revitalizing Superman.
And I truly think you know, you know, Grant story
is interesting, but you are knocking it out of the

(01:11:33):
park as well visually and your choices as always, so
thank you and keep it up, man.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
I'm glad it was received. Well. You know, we we
did try to do some really cool things with it.
I tried to give a certain feels of forties and
fifties in the artwork as well as trying to push
it forward. So it's you know, it was it was
a really cool experiment. And I tell you something, I

(01:11:59):
can't and not I cannot imagine in my entire career
ever to utter the words that I've done Action Comics
number one. It's just the thought of it is kind
of like gives you use bumps, you know. It's just, yeah,
you don't take that for granted. And and I'm really

(01:12:20):
disappointed that I didn't stay on it as well as
I had as much as well as I wish I
could have. But I'm not disappointed in the work that
I did do, and I'm glad that for the most part,
has been well received. You know, you do think you
get the the the the super nerd that's uh that
that just is not happy with anything. You know, sure,

(01:12:43):
God bless them, because that's the way it should be.
You know, they should be pushing you further and harder.
And that's okay. You know, we can take it, you know,
just don't be insulting in the process. And we're happy
doing anything that you want to do, because like I
blogged about, you know, and people don't always like the
changes that go on with the characters. People don't always

(01:13:03):
like the changes that companies make. Fifty two was not
well received for the most part. I think people have
gotten used to it. But initially it was a disruption,
and it seemed to be a disruption out of the
blue and for no reason. But a lot of those changes,
a lot of things that go on with these kinds
of things are done because their fans want them, because

(01:13:25):
they do complain about these things that we do listen
and we hear it enough that we start saying, okay, well,
then how can we incorporate this? And sometimes scratching as strapping,
scrapping everything and starting all over again is the only
way to go. And I think that's where the impetus
for fifty two came from. I mean a lot, you know. Obviously,
a lot has been said about legalities and things like that,

(01:13:47):
and that's always a part of the problem, especially with
characters that have lived this long. You always have families
to deal with. But I think in the end, it
was always just about just trying to do a better
book and like I said, you know, with supermanarticular for me,
and I know this isn't for everybody, and and I
hope I'm not stepping onto is when I say this,
But for me, it had been written to the point

(01:14:07):
of being written to the point and and I was
kind of glad to strip it back down and start
all over again. And you know, it was fun. It was.
It was a great time, and I worked with some
great people and uh, a lot of hard work, but
you know, looking back on it, it was it was
well worth it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
That's excellent. Man. What about real quick Man of Steel?
Any thoughts of the movie?

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait, you know, I
can't wait to see what Yeah, it's funny because I
think and if I'm not you know, one hundred percent sure,
but I'm pretty sure. At a time when there was
very little color in comics, the reason why giving him
underwear or or trunks, I'm sorry, it's not underwear the
trunks was to avoid the idea of him looking like

(01:14:52):
he's naked. So I think it's uh, it'll be interesting
to see him kind of sort of blue and naked.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
But hopefully not as correct as Doctor Manhattan. Wasn't watching, Hey,
how is that doing there?

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Well, you know, hey, look you know for the ladies,
it's it's it's about time, right, I mean, some time
to be saying, hey, is that a nipple? You know,
you know it's at some point they got to give
some back, so.

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
You know, as and forgive me, but this, this did
come to mind. The only thing that as far as
the new design of the armor, I'm sorry that there
isn't more yellow. And I thought Nikola's design for Earth
two the Earth to Superman was a big change.

Speaker 3 (01:15:37):
But at least you had that dash of yellow.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
And that's that's my only little nitpicky fan boy thing
of that's the only thing I wish there was more
of in the modern costume.

Speaker 3 (01:15:47):
But there's my two cents.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Yeah, you know what, I actually hadn't even occurred to
me that there's not a lot of yellow. Let's but
you're right, it's just you know, they took it out
of the back of the cape. Actually, you know, I
had an idea that unfortunately it wasn't used. I wanted
to have the red cape with the reds and the
red shield with no black outlining. All you see it
is just the yellow parts.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
I love that explanation. Was it burned that had like
the two fish. As far as how to make the
Superman insignia.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
Was it, I hadn't heard that, now tell me, you
know that it's.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
More the negative use of the gold that kind of
informs how the S is shaped and everything and that.
And I've heard other guys say that that's how they
do the shield. They start with the triangle and they
do what they call the fishes, you know, kind of opposite,
and that's how they build the S.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
And yeah, so you get.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
The pisces thing going on. Yeah, you know that makes
them It actually makes sense because when I was a kid, Look,
I didn't know anything about sketching, you know. I mean
I knew about highlines. Obviously. I was trying to teach
people how to do it. But when you sit there
and I remember watching Charles Schultz on TV it think
it was on PBS, I was just a wee little
waf completely mesmer rise and how accurate and to the

(01:17:01):
point he did his drawing, and it all just seemed
like it just like magically appeared. You know, there's a
guy Kim Jung now who does it. You can see
on YouTube. Who goes straight to the point with these
with these marker brushes and and his work. It just
you know, I just want to kick him. I want

(01:17:23):
to go over and I want to kick him, and
then I want to steal his pens and make sure
he never sees another pen for the rest of his life,
because he is just that good. Kim Jung, it's just
absolutely amazing. And j j O n j U n
g Ju Kim Jung, and he has these time lapsed

(01:17:43):
him doing stuff is it'll make you feel small. But
so that to me is I thought, you know, hey,
you know, you just go right into drawing, you know,
you just do it. And so for years I was
trying to piece together the little triangle here, this a
little weird looking lobby thing over here, and somehow try
to make it look like an s you know, because

(01:18:05):
that was into the yellow areas. You know, yeah, you know,
little knowing that hey, you know, idiot, you take a pencil,
you go ahead and you do the border lines, and
then you kind of erase the stuff you don't need,
you know, so you get hypnotized by people like Kim
Jong or people like a child Shultz rest his soul
and then you realize how far you really need to go.

(01:18:27):
So absolutely learn to build things. Please before you start
showing me stuff, because as much as I will tell
you everything that is good about your work, there's a
lot that you need to learn, and you'll be spending
the rest of your life doing it, because, like medicine
and like law, art is a practice. You'll be doing
it till the day you die.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
If you're good, outstanding, very good man. There you go.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
Now that's a good place to put it right there, now,
Thanks Rax. Honestly, this is great. I wish I was
one of those kids that could have had the Treasury
Edition with you, because I'd always start with the circle
of the square and somewhere in between those steps it
seemed to finish a lot quicker than what they were
first giving. I'm like, hey man, I'm still on the
circle in the square. How does this look like, Kurt
Swan Now I'm very confused.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
Yeah, well, you know you got your Nichols Worth. Let
me put it that way.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
Thanks man, And seriously, yeah, we got to do this
again in the months ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
So thank you for your time taking bit John.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
You have a good night.