scene missing the night of the hunter

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everybody, Welcome back time again for word Balloon, the
comic book conversation show John Santras here with an episode
of Scene Missing, where Gabe Hartman and I find a
movie to talk about sometimes ones that people don't remember.
This is kind of a classic Night of the Hunter,
directed by Charles Lawton and the only movie you ever directed.
But it has Robert Mitchum in it, It has Shelley

(00:21):
Winters in it, it has Lillian Gish, the great Silent Star.
Fantastic movie, very interesting, suspenseful movie. We urge you to
go seek it out, and if you have seen it,
you'll appreciate our review of it. Not only me and Gabe,
but our buddy Ian Brilla is with us, of course,
and Jeff Parker joins us, and two people that I
don't believe have been on Scene Missing before but have

(00:42):
been Word Balloon regulars. Steve Lieber, who, of course you
know from his wonderful work on things like Superman's Pal
Jimmy Olsen with Matt Fraction and Superior Foes A Spider
Man with Nick Spencer, among other great things. White Out,
of course with Greg Rucca and my buddy Allison Baker,
who of course the brains behind Monkey Brain Publishing, but

(01:02):
also a filmmaker in her own right, and she's been
doing She put up her website and has a lot
of her work that she did on Winona herb. She
did a lot of the behind the scenes footage that
are on the DVD sets and on iTunes, and they
were also from the electronic press kits as well, So

(01:23):
we figured she had a good filmmaker perspective to bring
to this talk about Knight of the Hunter. That's what
we're talking about on c Missing Today on Today's Word Balloon.
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(02:54):
Thanks for listening and thanks as always for your support.
Welcome back, everybody. It's time again for another scene saying
word Balloon broadcast. Everybody, good to see you, and we
got a very fun well not really a fun, We
got a really sad movie that we're talking about today.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
It's fun as well. It's not just sad.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
It's also stylized and you know, and awkward at times
and kind of transcended at times.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
It's all sorts of things. It's night of Charles Lawton's
Night of the Hunt.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Indeed, I'm sorry, IM going to block out two people
when I do. Therea Gabe and Steve Lieber, Steve joining us.
Good to see Steve, Good to see Alison Baker along
with our other usuals. Good to see Parker, jeff Parker,
everybody and Ian Brill. H Yeah, this is I know
Parker has been burning about this movie for months, haven't you, Jeffrey.

Speaker 5 (03:44):
Yeah, I just like, you know, people liked the last
time we talked about a movie, so I thought, there's
another movie we've all watched.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Let's watch Let's.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
Talk about a good movie though, right, Like people liked
it when we talked about a good movie as opposed
to like ninety percent.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Of the movies that we talk Yeah, they don't. They
don't like it when we talk about skdoo.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
So sometimes that's some of them do, some of them
do some of them like a convoy. But I think
it's better when we.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Do this, well, Jeff, you start, but then also, I
know there's a bigger story in terms of why Steve
is here as well.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
But what what uh?

Speaker 1 (04:20):
You know, what made you like go, hey, man, we
got to do Night of the Hunter because that was you,
that was coming from you?

Speaker 3 (04:25):
Was it?

Speaker 2 (04:27):
You know?

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Wight?

Speaker 5 (04:28):
I don't know, I just uh, I don't know. Sometime
last year I watched it again and I got Hunter fever.
You know, I was just like, man, this movie, this
story was like fifty years ahead of its time. I mean,
in a way, the movie itself is a throwback to
like a movie from the thirties, but yet it's also
something that you wouldn't expect to be handled until the

(04:49):
late nineties.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
My god, there's.

Speaker 5 (04:54):
Just just so much going on and and and then
we can get to the bottom of why do we
think Charles Walton only did this or is it's kind
of the equivalent stepping up at that knocking it out
of the park, And then well I'm done, never gonna
top that.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, Well, so, Jeff, when was.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
The first time you saw it? And we should go
around the horn? And I don't know I have any idea.
I mean, we're but it's something that you were a
lot younger and saw, right, yeah, or something.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
I mean I didn't. I saw it when I was
like a teenager. Yeah, I mean the first time. Oh no,
it was in New York City, so like it was,
I was like sixteen seventeen. I saw in a theater
or so in a rival theater, which is a great
way to see it movie like this.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, Alison, do you what?

Speaker 6 (05:39):
I saw it two days ago, so the first time, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
I do you like it?

Speaker 6 (05:45):
I thought it was. I thought there were.

Speaker 7 (05:47):
Lots of interesting choices in unvarying levels, like acting choices,
directing choices, script choices, editing choices that were unusual and surprising.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yes. Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (06:04):
And ever since we've talked about lockdown and John made
us lockdown a date for talking this, Leber's had Stanley
Cortes stills on his side computer at work.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
Uh, just over and over. We just keep looking at it, like, Wow,
what a shot photography of this? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (06:24):
And who also shot magnificent Anderson's And I mean really
this and Magnificent Ambersons are the things he's known for
the most. But he was a legendary cinematographer and one
of those kind of you know, uh guys who was
a fixture of the at the A s C. And stuff.
He's very part of a big part of the cinematographer society.

(06:44):
But uh, but uh, well, Steve, what what about you?

Speaker 3 (06:51):
How'd you come to this?

Speaker 8 (06:52):
It first came on my radar because I had read
Spike Lee's book about Do the Right Thing, and yeah,
he talked about build None with the with the Love
and Hate forefinger Rings. So I got to see part
of it at some point in eighty nine or ninety

(07:13):
or whatever that was. But I never actually got to
watch the whole thing until a few a few months ago,
and watched it and was just obsessed that I think
I've watched it four times since then, just just tried
to absorb all the gorgeous ambiguities that run through it.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Ian I had seen this maybe about ten years ago
on TCM sign note. I don't know if you guys
have that thing where you think of like twenty ten
or twenty fifteen and you realized that s like ten
or fifteen years ago and that yes, existential show goes
down your spine. Yeah, that's happened me a few times.
But yeah, seeing on TCM, and I knew its reputation,

(07:59):
and I knew it was the only movie direct by
Charles Laughton, and this is one of those movies I
think a planning the Aid sort of Saturday Night Keever,
which I call parody proof, which it's still good even
if you've seen the paries of it. And in my case,
I had seen I had seen Do the Right Thing
with Love and Hate, which is more of a tribute

(08:20):
than Pardy, and also on The Simpsons when Sideshow Bob
had l U because they have four fingers, and then
h at with a little thing over the a. Even
with those in my mind, the film still had all in.
Robert Mission's performance still packed a punch literally and sometimes agreed.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
I first saw it it much like Gabe, my son
in high school, and I've talked about this before. We
were very fortunate around Northwestern University there was this wonderful
second run and cult movie theater called the Varsity. The
music backs in the city still does basically the same
kind of programming, and that's where I first saw it,

(09:03):
and I I prior to that, I had seen the
infamous Love Hate, you know, hand wrestle thing, which is
great and I mean, really is the signatory or thing.
And I'm sure I saw it on like a Best
of Hollywood sort of clip show or whatever, so that
intrigued me.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
But then when the movie came around, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, it took my date and it was great because again,
you know, we were used to every now and then
the abusive Father movie, but this really was kind of
the first of the modern age. Like you guys said,
it was well ahead of its time. Before we go
to everybody else. Talking a couple of times, Don Lenza
points out.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
The movie is not in the AFI Top one hundred.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
That's surprising because it is a class Yeah, I really, yeah, talk.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
But I mean why would you know, like we certainly
can't go by something like that, you know, I mean
the great movies are usually things that are you know,
that are at least slightly fringy.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
But AFI usually does you know, like.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
Like updates for the times, any critical reception of the times,
of course.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
And also like I literally just finished the Spinal Tap
book and saw the sequel and everything, and Ryaner says
how thrilled he was that it got picked, you know,
for one hundred best movies, And you know that's I mean,
it is a great comedy movie and stuff, but certainly
wasn't called movie you know whatever.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
But anyway, still only one hundred of them.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Giduroh wants to know if any of us have read
the book by Davis Grubb.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (10:26):
I went trying to dig trying to dig a copy up,
and all he was able to find was an excerpt
online which actually kind of delivered the thesis of the
book in a single sentence, very very early in the book.
But I got to read stuff just the first few
pages the book opens up. The first shot in the

(10:50):
book is the chalk mark drawing of the hangman that
the kids are using to to tease our heroes. And mom, uh, Mom,
rather than just being the completely passive Shelley Winters, one

(11:10):
of the first things she does is is uh make
her is make her son swear to never tell Pearl
what happened to her dad. And then here's the line
that that just just haunts me, and clearly.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
It's it's kind of the thesis of the book.

Speaker 8 (11:31):
He describes. Grubb describes that's that compact between mom and
and and and her son as the soul and monstrous
truth which loomed in his small world, like a fairy
book ogre.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Well, there you go.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, I mean, and that's one like one of the
things about this movie is and it's often kind of lumped.
It's often thought of as film noir, right, and it's
not right like it's it's certainly you know, it has
lighting that is reminiscent of that, but it's it's that's
also just coming from the German expressionist the influence. And

(12:12):
I don't think it's a noir at all. I think
it's like a sort of fairy tale. It doesn't really fit,
you know, the way people talk about noir for the
most part, like it's it doesn't it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
I mean, apart from John feeling.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
Sad about it, it doesn't actually have a terrible you know,
uh you know, two downbeat of an ending. I mean
there's there, there is some Catharsis and you know, I
mean it's uh, well.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
It violates the you could say, the number one rule
of film noir, the fact that you're following to innocent characters.
In the film noir, usually no one is truly sure innocent,
and here you have the like children.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
Although look, and I mean we haven't actually talked about
what the movie is about, I mean, the it's uh.
Robert Ritcham plays a preacher character, a kind of self
uh made preacher who uh who finds out that the
that that the father of the two main kids had

(13:14):
had stolen some money and uh and hidden it someplace.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
So he's sort of on a.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
Mission to find that find that money and the you know,
and the the son. His his whole thing is about,
uh about never telling where it is and uh like
in I guess though now that now that Ian points
it out, I think he is a little bit guilty, right,
He's uh, he's participating in this. He's like, uh, you know,

(13:42):
in the crime and you know, and he's uh uh
you know. I mean, it's from a kid's point of
view of keeping an oath to his dad, but he's
basically implicated in a crime. The movie doesn't really deal
with it in that way because we we think of
him doing something kind of noble, but really it's protecting money,

(14:05):
you know, which is kind of a questionable thing. So
I'm I'm inching back to film noir a little bit,
but still.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, I mean no, absolutely as far as too, you know,
dead guy with money guy trying to find the money
and everything kind of that noir thing and everything. But
I wonder regarding the very very end and the happy
ending or whatever, the Christmas thing and everything, it almost
felt tacked on where maybe the studio or somebody and
I don't know if this is true or not, went

(14:31):
to lot and said, wow, that's that's really doubt. Can
we can we brighten it up in a different way,
like how Women of the Ear of All movies comes
to mind, where the wacky Oh my god, you know,
Captain Eppern is so brilliant and what an amazing woman,
but she has this Lucy Ricardo moment in the kitchen
where she can't handle just being a you know, domesticated

(14:52):
wife and everything.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
Oh silly, silly, silly kate, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
And and it just especially I mean, I love the
impact at the and the courtroom and everything where you know,
John's on the standards, so devastated for him, what he's
what he's gone through, and it's just like, man, it
would have really been powerful to the end, you know.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
I mean, I don't know, I.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Mean, I absolutely get that argument. And it is a
really idiosyncratic ending, I mean, and one that I usually
don't even remember is there.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
But at the same time, I think it kind.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
Of works in the weird scheme of the movie that
the movie begins and I will let other people talk,
but the movie begins with Lillian Gish talking directly to
the camera, talking to us the audience basically as children.
And you know, and I feel like so much of
what this movie is is about the point of view

(15:47):
of these children and their way of interpreting a scary world.

Speaker 8 (15:52):
Yeah, if the kids sort of if the kids are adults,
you've got no country for old men.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, yeah, sure, but they and and also you know,
Gish and even in the middle of the movie, you know,
kind of consoles John and it's like, you know, children
are strong, you know, they not to endure these things,
and so we're back to that at the end. So
I mean it works, you know fine, and everything from
a man.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
From a purely uh just now this is more cynical
and and I don't think that's where they were going
with the in the story of the movie. But I
think the fact you got to realize how big a
thing it is to have a serial killer preacher. It's
this main character, and how scared they must have been

(16:36):
that this thing wasn't gonna show all over the country,
So they have to have missus.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Cooper as this other the real religious figure that's his foil.

Speaker 5 (16:49):
Basically, he sees through his bullshit immediately, doesn't doesn't even
listen to his his uh right hand left hand story,
you know, like she she knows a faker from a
mile away, and so does John, and so did John,
and so does John's dad, Ben Harper, like they're all
kind of the same character who just immediately see Harry

(17:09):
Powell for what he is.

Speaker 4 (17:11):
But that but it's satisfied because she's she's the only
one who really in his world, who who who validates
this you know, uh, this he's been running. No one
believes him. You know, no one believes believes either of them. Uh,
And that that moment where she just believes him, she
looks into his eyes, believes him and goes, no, you're right,

(17:33):
he's not he's not your dad, and he's not a preacher,
and that, you know, like, uh, it's I mean, that's
it's there's so much build up to it. I think
it's a really satisfying moment.

Speaker 7 (17:41):
It's also interesting that she's the only woman in the
film that doesn't just go gaga over him.

Speaker 6 (17:47):
Everybody else does, but she does not.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, the movie really is almost like a mix between
a noir in a fairy tale, which is a very
strange mix. But throughout the film there's a lot of
kind of touches of fairy tales. One of the instead
of a wicked stepmother, Harry Powell becomes a wicked stepfather.
But that sense of being a child, I know there's

(18:15):
a monster. The adults don't believe me, which is the
drama of the at least the first half of the
film is such a primal fairy tale thing, and that's
what makes us. One of the things that makes this
film so fascinating is that it mixes, you know, real
drama with that you know, fairy tale. Groom's fairy tale

(18:37):
kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah and dream.

Speaker 5 (18:40):
Should we bumble through a recap for people who haven't
seen it, Well, I'll do a little bit. I'll pass
it off wherever. Okay, we open with Harry Palell, the
evil preacher, you know, cruising along in his car talking
to God about where's my next widow? With the money

(19:01):
hidden behind the sugar bowl. You know, so he right
away there's no hiding the fact that he is the
bad guy and he gets the The other interesting thing
where I say parts of the movie are way ahead
of their time is he gets nabbed in a burlesque
call and he is watching a woman and he is furious.

(19:22):
He's gripping his switchblade in his pocket with his hate
hand and everything, and he's he goes on a quick
little weird rant about women with their perfumes and their curls,
like he's got some deep seated issue, and we never
get that story.

Speaker 4 (19:41):
And also, but in that scene you get the the
switch blade going through his yeah yeah answer or whatever,
the most kind of violently phallic image you're gonna find.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, Which is the first side not to go too
much on tangent yet, is that sexual repression is also
so a big part of It's strange that on one
hand it's a kid's fairy tail, but on the other hand,
sexual repression is also another major of this film.

Speaker 5 (20:09):
Yeah yeahs him in there because he stole a car.
He gets thrown in jail, and he is in jail,
finds himself on the top bunk of Peter Graves, who
is John and Pearl's dad. Ben Harper and he's muttering
in his sleep, and Mitcham's down there like hanging over listening,

(20:30):
and luckily Peter Graves wakes up just in time and
socks And because Peter Graves is a big guy, and
like to have someone who can knock Mitch him out,
you got to have like James Arness's brother in this movie.
And so anyway, like now Mitcham is on to the

(20:50):
fact that there's ten thousand dollars he hid somewhere and
he's about to get hung by his neck till he is.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
Dead, as they say, and uh so.

Speaker 5 (21:01):
He can't wait to get out and get on the
road and go find the family. So then we pick
up uh at the beloved Spoons Cafe. We're Icy Spoon
and her her poor husband Walter dish out ice cream and.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
Shelley Winters works for them.

Speaker 4 (21:24):
I know that it's named after the people who own it,
but the fact that it's just called it's an ice
cream place called Spoons makes me just feel like it's
in the hipster part of town and like, you know.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
The granddaughter turned it into a very trendy Portland It.

Speaker 6 (21:39):
Is a very Portland name.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
It's got weird in it. And like meat.

Speaker 5 (21:45):
And Okay, So I just wanted to get to this
part because I figured John was gonna have worked out
his Evelyn uh voice by now, because she is a
classic character actor trope.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
Uh winteres Shelley, No, no, Lynn, it's.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Miss missus Spoon's rather you know, I'm not ready with
my uh my mo you come.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
In here, girl.

Speaker 5 (22:14):
You know everything everything's female foghorn leghorn with.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Oh yeah, okay, let's just go around the horn and
everybody has to try their impression of yeah, everybody is
having the most fun maybe, but she's definitely giving it
her college best.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well and again it's the it's you know, trying to
portray that that small town kind of thing, so you
do need big.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Broad yeah, but I think it's also it's also that
Charles Wawton directed This is fucking huge.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
He's a he's a.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
Very odd performer, right, you know, and uh like, and
he clearly was pushing everybody to go big with stuff.
It's not a it's not a subtle movie performance in
any way.

Speaker 5 (22:56):
Well, yeah, you gotta you gotta do all these big
swings or it doesn't work, like because they like when
you start getting into the German expressionist kind of barns
and stuff, and the inside of the upstairs bedroom and
everything is like it's it's.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
All heightened kid memory. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (23:15):
So I found myself wondering all throughout about the choice,
uh to make Shelley Winter's character such a zombie. I
mean she she's like one of uh one of Dracula's
thralls or something.

Speaker 7 (23:32):
Yeah, that's That's That's what I was saying earlier about
like all the women that react to him, Like remember
the teenager was like gaga over him after like five minutes,
the little girl was goga, the missus Spoon was. So
I think that there was something that was kind of
saying was that there was something about him that made
women kind of lose their minds a little bit.

Speaker 8 (23:53):
Yeah, they call a blue Beard at the end, but
really he's Dracula.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
Yeah, and Shelley Winters is get Shelley Winters gets a
weirdly uh kind of realistic part for I think because
she's sort of shell shocks, you know, or her husband's dead. Yeah,
she's on her on with the kids. Uh ic he
keeps telling her what to do with her life. Uh,
you know, like here's some guy who just walked up

(24:19):
trust him.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
And uh, Harry Robert Mitcham. He doesn't reveal that he's
a prisoner. He says he was a chaplain at the prison,
which is why he knows about Ben Harper.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
I'm just sorry.

Speaker 4 (24:34):
But as stylized as her as, Shelley Winter's performance is
the uh, there's the moment when she figures out that
that he really is after the money and it and
it just plays on her face and she does this
kind of like little.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Traumatized tick thing.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
I think is incredibly naturalistic and kind of powerful after
the heightened performance that she gave up until that point.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
Well, yeah, I mean that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
I you know, I never give her enough credit for
being as great of an actress as she was, because sadly,
my first exposure was mob Barker on Batman and Interested Loud.
She's great in that and also beside the Adventure, those
literally are the first two things of hers I ever saw.
And then I'd see her on the Dinah Shore talk
show and well, you know, you want to ask her

(25:22):
and it's like, all right, this woman is so contained
and like you said, Gab, when she realizes that, well,
first of all, Lord Please send me the right man,
because I made a mistake with my first husband. Please
show me the way. So she wants salvation, who bettered
against salvation from than this chaplain who also is very charismatic.

(25:44):
And man, I'll tell you when she's ready to consummate
the marriage. And I love that we get to say consummate,
you know. And and the way he rejects her. Yeah, man,
that boy. You know, uh, doctor Freud, I think someone's
waiting for you is we make sure the couch is open,
but also her reject And then I love a way
to go, Jeff, because Jeff's want to grab this image.

(26:05):
She's ready to die or ready for salvation. She's already
in the corpse position. She knows what's coming. Yeah, she's
just me.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
And that whole thing where he you know, uh shames
her for what with this, Yeah, everything about it.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
That's that whole thing. It's like she's uh.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
You know, like I just think it's it's like a
Martin Scorsese level uncomfortable between human sort of thing where
he's you know, he's doing it's so like you know,
in in most every circumstance you would imagine, you know,
he's he's manipulating her. He wants sex from her, he
wants to and it, and he's manipulating her by like

(26:49):
keeping her at a distance.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
He clearly has issues with sex that he can't deal with.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
Like, uh, it's uh it, you know, there's there's a
lot of layers of perversity.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
In this thing.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, and I mean again, nineteen fifties, I thought that
was the you know, Reagan era of common sweeten.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Don't get me wrong, I.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Realized God's Lit, The Laker and things like that were
also happening alongside all the nice calm stuff and everything.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
But yeah, again, this is why it's so you know,
beyond its time. Go ahead, ALP, pardon me.

Speaker 6 (27:17):
I have a question.

Speaker 7 (27:19):
Did y'all find it unusual that this was it fifty
five movie but it was set during the depression.

Speaker 6 (27:24):
That doesn't seem typical to me from that era.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
I think that's true. I mean, I don't think there
were a lot of things. I mean, I guess, I
mean there probably were, but like, but I think that
the it's weird that it's set during depression, but it's
like this kind of spooky depression, like it like we
never get a lot of the stuff that you like,
the normal stuff that you would get to indicate that,

(27:50):
you know what I mean, like breadlines and whatever and everything.
It's all from one point of view, you know, but
it's rural.

Speaker 7 (27:58):
So like that makes sense, but like it's the fact
that you've got like children that are alone everywhere.

Speaker 6 (28:05):
Yes, yeah, and.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
To me, so yeah, I think that's the strongest part.
When they're in the boat they go get the potatoes.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
From Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, And that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
And I would imagine during the depression that that is
kind of the rural depression experience. So yeah, other than
you know, grapes of wrath obviously, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
There just aren't depression.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
There aren't as many depression signifiers in it as if
you think for something that is setting it up that way.

Speaker 8 (28:35):
And I think an important thing for the for the
studios at this point would be Dad robbing a bag
or robbing the safe or whatever wherever was he got
the money from would seem more forgivable with the context
of the depression than it would in the context of

(28:56):
prosperous America in nineteen fifty five.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah, true, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
I wonder how Lawton got the gig, did I don't
know if you researched that well.

Speaker 4 (29:07):
So he like he had you know, he's getting he's
deep in his career, right, he was born in eighteen
ninety nine, so like, yeah, the and he uh he
had and wasn't in the greatest of health, and you know,
he was getting to the point where he couldn't just
act all the time, right, he would uh. The producer
of this sing, Paul Gregory, was a guy who had

(29:28):
been he'd been an actor and then then became an
agent and uh, and he kind of like, uh, he
saw Lawton reading from the Bible on TV. He was
he was also in New York, and he basically just
got in a cab, went over to the studio and
met Lawton on the way out and kind of dagged him.
Was like, hey, you're you're uh, you're leaving a million

(29:50):
dollars on the table every year, and he's like, what
do you mean? Like and so he ended up convincing
him to do a book tour, like a tour, like
a tour of readings from Bible, right, and and like
they kind of became partners, you know, business partners through that,
and and then ultimately ended up Lawton ended up directing

(30:12):
The kne Mutney Court Martial on Broadway, and which was
it's him transitioning into directing.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
He really hadn't directed prior to all this, so like when.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
You know, but like was trying to transition into being
a film director as well, because like his his opportunities
for constantly acting and stuff.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
It just wasn't you know, that point in his career anymore. Uh.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
And And I think that it was a book that
Lawton had admired. It was a relatively recent best selling
type book at the time, and it was something he admired.
It was something that that But I suspect and I
think that this movie, as much as there's an enormous
amount of great stuff and nuanced stuff and interesting stuff,

(30:59):
I think this movie is also kind of awkwardly made.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
It was made quickly. There's a lot of stuff.

Speaker 4 (31:04):
In it that you know that sometimes is dreamy but
often is also kind of you know, I don't they
ran out of time to shoot something right Like it's
you know, there are freeze frames for you know, for
exteriors or things that just that that our desperation moves
in the editing room in order to to to make

(31:25):
this work together.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
I not. I there is one thing out there.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
That's like two hours of For whatever reason, they printed
everything for this movie right like you know used to be,
you know, you only print the good takes right on
film because it's expensive. But for whatever reason, on this
low budget movie, they printed everything.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
So there are tons.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
Of extended takes, out takes, him Lawton directing from off camera.
There's two hours of this stuff flown around there. You
can find it on YouTube. It's also on the Criterion disc.
And and like, I think that part of what makes
this movie so interesting in a way is because Lawton

(32:07):
was not a skilled director in a film director or
a visualist in certain way. But he's working with Cortez,
who has his ideas. He's working with James ag the
screenwriter who you know, who apparently wrote like a three
hundred page script that that Lawton personally then had to
cut down. Uh.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
There's a lot of interesting elements that come together. And
I feel like it's one.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
Of those movies that that almost exists by mistake. I
don't I think that it is a Charles Lawton movie,
but I you know, but I also think that it's
not like, uh, it's it's not something that was perfectly crafted.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
I think it's something that came together. Yeah, that I did.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
Listen to all the things where Lawton does line reads
with the kids, yeah, and uh, and that's where he's
had a little he has. He clearly like he's nice
to the little girl, Earl the Pearl, who was a
kid who won a contest for singing a song, and

(33:08):
that she's the Honey Boo Boo of the fifties.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
And she's like, Uh, don't say God bless the kid, no,
please that she get it.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
I get it.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
I just hate she's kind Yeah, that was that was
kind of her weird place. And clearly they had planned
for her to sing the lullaby and then they didn't
even use it. Yeah, they they dubbed in someone else
and uh and I but when you're listening to the thing,
he's very sweet with her and giving her direction, and
he's really hard on the boy. He's just like it's

(33:41):
kind of it's kind of painful to listen to, and
because like the kid doesn't have the director's big picture
of anything.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
He just knows what he knows in his lines and.

Speaker 5 (33:52):
Everything, and and Lawton's getting kind of fed up with
him and uh.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
Sort of is uh.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
I really felt on some of those, I'm like, oh, man,
just like I don't know, just like, let somebody ask
ask Mitcham to talk to the kids or something, you know, Like.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
I had heard in the past that Mitcham was the
one who like interacted with the kids a lot, that
Lawton was was less.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Engaged with those. Those say a completely different thing, though.

Speaker 4 (34:20):
I Mean, he is right there and weirdly constantly give
feeding lines to everybody, Like he seems to be feeding
all of the off camera lines no matter what. I
don't know how they scheduled this thing that nobody was
there to give off camera lines. But like, but he's
I mean I think that he probably just wanted.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
To do it. But it's but he is really harsh
with the kid.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
I mean, there's the the the really weirdly interesting thing
of the way that the kid reacts to his dad
being arrested. And then when when Mitcham is arrested at
the end, after terrorizing for him for the entire time,
he uh, he like internalizes exactly the same way as
he did when his father.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Was was arrested. But the but the.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
Thing where he grabs his stomach, you can see in
in the.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
The outtakes that that lot.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
Is fucking punching him in the stomach right before before
the take every single time, or at least kind of
slapping him on the stomach to get him to react
that way. I don't know how ethical a lot of
this stuff is, but you.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Know what, what's John's name?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
What's the actor's name, Ben Chapin, Ben Chad like chaplain
without the chaplain excuse me, Okay, it's weird. And maybe
hearing all this about the outtakes and everything, he was
on this great YouTube channel that I adore called a
Word on westerns. Oh yeah, it's this producer Rob Word

(35:51):
and he talks to all these character actors and leads
that made Western movies that are still around, and he's
on there talking about he was I believe he was
Red Writer's sidekick in the old Red Writer. Cereal did
a lot of TV as well, But I really don't
remember them talking at all about Knight of the Hunter.
And I wonder if Lawton's you know, acting towards him

(36:14):
and traumatized him in some way that he's like, yeah,
I don't want to talk about that, but he's really
good and I've seen a lot of his work and
he always was this solid kid and they I mean,
he had a.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Lot of heavy lifting in this movie for being a
kid came to play. I mean, he was great. It's
some tough parts, like.

Speaker 5 (36:32):
Like when he's he's doing the I was reading since
Hardman gave us the script and I was reading that
like it describes him just shouting no or whatever when
he when they capture Harry Powell, Uh, like he did
with his dad. But what what he's doing and it's
clearly Lawton dricking and he's trying to do a kind
of almost inward hollow you know, like but it's hard.

(36:56):
It's a hard thing to get a kid actor to do.

Speaker 4 (36:59):
Yeah, and he's yeah, and you can there's there's stuff
where you can hear Lawton off camera and you know,
saying to him, you know, you know, uh smile like
it's a like like you're in pain or something like that.
Like it's a I can't remember exactly what the words are,
but over and over again, like you know, to a child,
like and he's kind of trying to understand what it

(37:19):
is and not quite getting there. But I mean, like
you know, uh, and and I imagine that Lawton is
picturing something even bigger than what the kid is giving him, Right,
I think that what I mean, I think what the
kid gave him was was really good.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Though.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
I mean, if anything, the awkward bits of it are
often about how they covered it.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
I mean, everything is.

Speaker 5 (37:38):
All when he finally covers his mouth then like that
all took too long, that's but and you know.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
And looking at uh, looking looking at all that that stuff,
it felt like they probably shot too much coverage of ever,
of all the a lot of those dialogue scenes and
a lot of you know, a lot of stuff, the
stuff that Lawton wanted to focus on, and then ran
out of time for some of the other stuff that
wasn't as fun for him to do.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
That's what my guess is about it.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
Because there's lots of setups that are never used in
the movie. There's lots of you know, there's close ups
that they never used. They often stick with big kind
of you know, uh, priscenium type masters, you know, and
and never cut into all that stuff. I think he
shot tons of the actors that he didn't need.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
We should probably get to the big murder, because because
I bothered to learn how to screenshot on Amazon. So
I we're going to get there? I think no, but
go ahead. Yeah, well I hated the whole thing.

Speaker 5 (38:38):
He grab it and then it's like I got nothing,
But now I know what did turn off graphic accelerator.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
That's the key. Good and uh and then you can
grab the picture or whatever. You know what that means.
But I'll figure it out.

Speaker 5 (38:51):
Yeah I don't either, but all right, it's in chrome
and uh that's I watched that. My computer is gonna
shut down in the middle of this for saying how
to screw with chrome.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Whatever.

Speaker 5 (39:04):
So anyway, like it does seem like, uh, Harry Powell
is like it's it's eating it him. He can't wait
to kill Shelley Winners. And uh, just the fact that
he's having to leave her alive so long seems to
be just eating them, eating him to death until he
finally in that one night, Uh, they do the shot

(39:26):
of their bedroom and it's supposed to be up in
an attic, but it's this enormous, you know, just like
weird twisting uh ceiling that it's.

Speaker 3 (39:37):
Like his it's like his church. And that's the way
I read it. Oh, I think so.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
And it's and then and then he you.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Don't have the picture that crap I thought, I thought
that was it. The no, there's the shot where he's
with the kind of yeah, yeah, I'll uh. But uh.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
But this is also where it shifts into very expressionistic
stuff and the you know, more so than any time earlier.
And uh and obviously German expressionism was a was an
influence on this. But the but I think silent movies
are in general or a big influence on this.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
That kind of.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
There's a lot of uh, I mean not only kind
of obvious visual things, the thing we're talking about, or
the there's a shot that Iris is in at one point,
which was an incredibly old fashioned like kind of I
think at the time people would have thought of laughably
old fashioned thing to do. Uh and uh and this

(40:40):
was this was Cortes's idea and uh Cortes did push
the visuals in this direction. But I but they they
did go to MoMA or someplace together and watched a
bunch of, uh of silent movies. And and there's a
lot of silent kind of storytelling in this. The the
between the train and like her thinking about you know

(41:07):
about some other you know, having some other husband and
then intercut with just like you know, you know, him
relentlessly coming towards them, you know, like it's more like
and the way that it's intercut is more like a
silent movie than you would do in a in a
nineteen fifty five sound film.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
And also Lily and Gish, yes coming at the end.
She was a huge star.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
One are the biggest stars in the world. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
oh my god.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yet but also my cat, she's like a bagoda where
you know, this is only twenty you know, thirty maybe
thirty years I guess since her ingenue days and like
you know, she's she looked like this for another thirty years,
you know, into the eighties and everything.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
So here's the looks good in this movie. There we
are sorry late, better late than ever.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
And also we haven't given up for one of my
absolute favorite character actors from the thirties, forties and fifties,
the great James Gleason Uncle Bertie. Yeah, god, I love
that guy. I love him and everything. Meet John Doe.
Last turn, of course, here comes mister Jordan. But he's
fantastic as Uncle Bertie. And it and it's it's you know,

(42:19):
I I you know Yeah, it's it's a shame that
Uncle Bertie didn't come to the rescue, but he's an
old man.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
I think that's absolutely necessary. It has the fact that,
you know that it felt like the kid felt like
he had somebody he could turn to, but he didn't
because of that guy's failings.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
I mean, a big point of it.

Speaker 6 (42:36):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (42:36):
He says, come to me, something's up and everything, and
then as soon as he sees her underwater in the car,
for some reason, his head goes straight to they're gonna
blame me, Like, yeah, this is the first the famous
shot or one of them.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Yeah, Shelley right there, everybody.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
Yeah, I do want I mean, I I don't know
if there's more word of this in the novel, but
the him jumping to the they're gonna blame me, and then
him always looking at the at the photo of his
dead wife, it's like, wait.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
What happened there? Like what happened to the past? A
few other good movies suggested it.

Speaker 5 (43:15):
Yeah, but and uh yeah, and and then like briefly
when he's just he's bawling and he's drunk, and he
he briefly describes what you can't see there, the underwater
shot where he talks about her neck being open, like
she had another mouth, and it's like, yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
It's just it's actually pretty revolting a little bit.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, I don't know how they got this shot though,
it is pretty amazing.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
It's a mannequin. It's a mannequin in a tank.

Speaker 5 (43:44):
They they did a Shelley They made a Shelley face,
put it on her.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
But that's that's great. That's that's movies. Movies are fake.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
That's good stuff. Look and they get it the way
it's shot. Yeah, you know, hats off tot.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
And we were talking about this a little bit before.
And but the when Lawton was developing this and working
on the script and he was reaching out to Davis Grubb,
the novelist, he uh, like he wouldn't the novelist. He
kept drawing things for him instead of replying with the

(44:18):
you know, with like more textured or psychological analysis and uh.
And these drawings were like Lawton fell in love with
these drawings. They're kind of out there. You can see
him on the Criterion disc and there's some places on
on YouTube you can see him. Uh and uh, they're
actually really interesting and evocative. He basically came up with
that image of the novelist basically came up with that

(44:41):
image of the uh well uh of the of her
underwater and the flowing hair and all that sort of stuff.
I mean, it's very similar to what they did.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
I like this interesting.

Speaker 6 (44:57):
It's a cool style.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
Yeah, it's very simple and kind of you know, a
slightly untrained feel to it, but it but it communicates.

Speaker 7 (45:07):
The ideas and it has has a style to it
though too.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, he was the Jewels fier of his day, and
like Jewels five for a multi hyphen that novelist.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Thank you, cartoonist, please my god, absolute man, no question
and again give it to get up the lot. And
like you said, man, it hit the ball out of
the park and all right, that's enough, man, that's.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
Where And once you get through the murder, then it
sets up that whole the dream like travel down the
river store part of the movie that I love so much,
even though there's stuff that like really doesn't need to
be there. You don't need to see the owl and
the frog and all that, like.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
You don't need Yes, you do need to see the frog.
You absolutely need to see the frog.

Speaker 6 (45:56):
The frog.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
I love I love you see the al at the screen.
You know, that's just like you didn't.

Speaker 8 (46:03):
I've been going back and forth as to whether those
whether those animals are are are symbols of other predators
or if they're like animal guardians watching over the kids.

Speaker 4 (46:15):
I mean, I think that it's not all of that,
and I think that it's kind of but it but
in a kind of dreamy kid kind of way, you know.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
And you know, and there's also animals that just wouldn't
be there, like the big.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
Tortoise and stuff like, they're just not It doesn't make
logical sense, but that's that's helping us in the in
this this dreamy world, you know, and like taking us
further down into a you know, I mean, as much
as this is from the kid's point of view and
it and it has that fairy tale quality to it,
they're clearly different movements in this this picture, right Like

(46:49):
it's it starts with a kind of naturalism and you know,
and it shifts over the course of the stuff with uh,
you know, with the mother and up to her death,
and it becomes absolutely you know, a dream world when
we're going down the river and going down a river,
all these things are very kind of you know, iconic,
and we obviously talk about Moses later and you know,

(47:12):
and the kind of myth the mythological sort of feeling development.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
It helps with the storybook feel with it. And there
is I think there is a great payoff because you see,
there's a bit where you see two rabbits and they're
actually very large in the frame and the kids are
very small in the background. And then later on at
Rachel the woman at the end, yeah, Oli Gish who

(47:45):
she's not really running an orphanage, but she has all
these orphans that she takes care of and and she's
kind of come out of farm. I guess there's a
bit where Al is looking at a rabbit and you
don't see the kill the rabbit, but you hear it,
and that that predator prey thing pays off and feeds

(48:06):
into the you know, overall same.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
I also really for the ten minutes that he's in
the movie at the beginning, another guy that you see
him get jobs like this all through the fifties and sixties,
well before Mission Impossible.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Peter Graves is still grace. Yeah, and he really I.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Mean immediately you know, you know his character even though
he did this robbery and everything you feel for him,
and you know he's trying, he's trying to be the
best dad he can despite being a crook.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
You know, it's that's that's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
He's really we can we talk about the Go ahead, Steve, Oh.

Speaker 8 (48:44):
I just wanted to do did anybody manage to score
a copy of the nineteen ninety one TV remake?

Speaker 3 (48:51):
No, okay, I watched last night. This was I was
going to wait to talk about that. He brought it
up in that as well. Go ahead, Uh, well, uh,
you know who do you think who? Whoo?

Speaker 4 (49:06):
Who would you go to if you thought we got
to recast Robert mitchm in one of his most iconic performances,
Richard Richard Chamberlain.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Uh like, yes, which is bizarre.

Speaker 4 (49:20):
He's like wearing this handlebar mustache and it's his had
like his hair slick back. He looks like he maybe
had plastic surgery a little too soon before this job
and uh and he uh like and it but it's
set in the present of the you know, of the
time sort of. It just not very well dealt with

(49:41):
and uh and it's it's look, it's not good. The
dad is played by by the guy who plays the
the the preacher who in Deadwood in the first season,
you know, the who ends up if anybody's seen Deadwood,
who who has the you know, the aneurysm or whatever
that over the course of it.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
And you know he's decent.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
But it's but the kid is like fourteen, the boys
like fourteen, and it doesn't none if it's good, but like,
I don't know, it was sort of. I mean, it's
it's interesting as a counterpoint. It's interesting to see the
different choices they made that work very good, you know,
like thinking they're modernizing it.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Chamberlain made a lot of those TV movies in mini
series and stuff. Well, sure, yeah, I mean this is
this is you know this show. You know, yeah, this
is ten years later. No, you know, it's that's ironic
because I know I watched last year his Bourne Identity,
which is much more faithful to the Ludlum book than
the movies the Damon movies are and everything. But it

(50:43):
was it was very interesting seeing Richard Chamberlain and the
Boorne identity.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Sure, speaking of the Peter Graves of it all, did
anyone see in the Criterion the edition there is a
deleted scene that was is staged on The Ed Sullivan
Show between Graves and Winters. There's I've never heard of this,

(51:08):
although I think we should bring it back on The
Ed Sullivan Show. They they did a scene which I
didn't even know if they knew it was going to
be deleted, but like to I don't know, promote the movie.
They had Peter Graves and Shelley Winters do this deleted
scene which was then telling his Willa, his wife to

(51:32):
marry a man. Guess keeping her you know, no he
you know, she's visiting him in prison. And then apparently
there was another Ed Sullivan appearance but with Mitcham and
Shelley Winters. But Mitch was really bad and there's like
a thing where he's talking about love and hate but

(51:54):
he but he puts up the wrong hand.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
Uh, like he says love he was drunk.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah, I get it, And that might have contributed to
the fact that the film was not a success. But
this idea of like, to promote a film, We're going
to have the cast come on and do live Actually
it fits.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
I have seen other Sullivan episodes with clips like that that.
I remember a Mister Roberts seen played out on Ed Sullivan.
I believe I remember a King and I scene played
out on Ed Sullivan, so I hear what you're saying.
And absolutely by today's you know, television and film standards,
it's crazy. But I guess back then, you know, yeah,

(52:35):
I'm sure you know some money was exchanged between a
studio and Ed to promote the thing this way.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
Now on our stage.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Doesn't have Ed Sullivan introducing it, which I wish.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
That's a damn shame.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
I wish it had that.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
No, that's cool, man, I love it. Yeah again. Oh,
I'm sorry, go ahead, j No, No, continue please.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
The one thing about that kind of fascinates me about
the Mitchem Preacher character is that you know, he's a
serial killer and uh, and he's a preacher. But the
but the one thing that really stood out to me
at the beginning of this is that he's driving along
by himself talking to God. At the beginning of it,
he believes.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
He does leitimately think he's talking about.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
I mean, he's everybody talks about him his character as
a con man, but I don't think it's as simple
as that he believes in the stuff that he's talking about.
He talks about in the you know in the prison.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
He says that, you know, he both says, you know
with the uh you know, holding the switch blade, that
that I come not in peace but with a sword,
you know, Uh, and uh and that that when Graham
asks him what what religion it is that he professes
to to believe in, he says, the religion, Uh, the

(54:00):
Almighty and Me worked out betwixt us.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Right.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
So like it's it's his interpretation of all of this stuff.
But I think that he I think that he firmly
believes it all too, which I think is something that
is a more alienating thing for this you know, if
you know, if you're a religious person, presumably if you're
somebody in the Deep South or whatever, right like the

(54:25):
people they would be worried about.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
Not not engaging with this movie.

Speaker 4 (54:29):
It's a I mean, I think it's a more like
kind of a Boulder take than than you you probably
would have gotten, you know, in something else.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
No, he he has worked religion into his way of thinking.
God approves of what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
He has his own, you know, his own idea of it.
It's like he is the idea.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Yeah, no, God gotta God gets me as I killed
well you're.

Speaker 5 (54:57):
Saying, yeah, you've got plenty of killing in your bible,
you know. He yeah, right, he's given god ship. Yeah,
and telling him how you know.

Speaker 4 (55:05):
He's like he knows that that he's on the right
track because of that, right.

Speaker 8 (55:10):
Yeah, he's what's his line, uh that where he expresses
regret that he kid killed the whole world?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Oh yeah, right, I can't remember it, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
And he mentioned at the beginning that he's already killed
widows before twelve thirteen.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (55:28):
Well, I think in the end of the movie they
talk about like it was like twenty seven or something.

Speaker 6 (55:33):
Oh wow, right, Like I remember when they're doing the trial,
it's like, yeah, he killed all these women and.

Speaker 7 (55:39):
Then they like I'm not sure, like what I wasn't
sure what was happening here?

Speaker 6 (55:44):
This is where it got like a I.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
And I feel like a lot of this is you know.
It's also you know.

Speaker 4 (55:54):
That three hundred page script of James AG's that gets
condensed down into you know, something like a movie where
you know by by Lawton, I'm sure things.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
Get lost, yes the wow.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
Yeah, So James ag was like, you know, he had
written scripts, he wrote, he co wrote African Queen for
John Houston, and he uh and like he had a
limited number of screenwriting credits, but he was also known
as like one of the kind of like the most
well regarded film critic at the.

Speaker 3 (56:23):
Time, and that was how long a movie is? But
yet he well.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
But he look, you know, I mean, like this happens certainly,
and and it's also probably a first draft, right.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
And also James maybe he knew it. Maybe he knew
it or not, but he was definitely up against the
clock because he uh indulged and died young and actually
died before this movie came out, so maybe that was.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
Yeah, yeah, I have a book of age screenplays that
includes this and it the forward is by John Houston,
and he basically just talks about how, you know, the
you know, how.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Gentle of a sort of a soul ag was, but
how hard.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
Living he was and that and you know and his
his his rumpled suits and his lack of attention to
you know, uh vanity and he.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Was ah, you know, he was he abused himself, you.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
Know, and uh and like uh and it's there's controversy,
or at least people don't seem to be very clear
on why he didn't revise the script.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Uh but and Lawton did. But but I can also.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
Imagine that in you know, this is a low budget movie,
and in the relatively short amount of time that they
have to do this, having the guy who wrote a
three hundred page script for a ninety minute movie go down,
go back and try to revise it, it would probably
be less effective than somebody out the director just going
I gotta cut this thing down.

Speaker 5 (57:48):
The windows probably closeding Mitchen Brulany has so much time
to do his thing.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
Yeah, And it's similar to to to Citizen Kane. I mean,
you know and the the manka Witz Wells controversy with it,
where you know, people talk about, uh, you know, want
to assign credit but Makelwitz wrote on a big, unwieldy
screenplay that Orson Wells turned into a movie.

Speaker 7 (58:08):
So you know, but I mean considering it it was
three hundred pages, I mean it was an hour and
a half.

Speaker 6 (58:13):
Like that's cutting it down by more than a third,
Like it's less than a third.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
More yeah, right, yes, yeah, yeah, I don't know that.

Speaker 4 (58:23):
Pages right, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you're losing a lot.
But yeah, to your point about the about that the
kind of mob at the end and everything, it's a
little like, wait, are they.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Going after Mitcham? Are they? You know?

Speaker 7 (58:37):
That was my question because it was like it looked
it looked after the kids, right.

Speaker 4 (58:42):
Yeah, well it feels like that because they see him
and they start freaking out.

Speaker 6 (58:45):
But wait, it's cut.

Speaker 7 (58:47):
Yeah, it's like in the courtroom that all you see
is the boy.

Speaker 6 (58:50):
You never see him, and you never.

Speaker 7 (58:53):
See Mitcham in the courtroom, which I thought was weird.
So yeah, there was a lot of weird editing going on.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
And I see back of that film. I see is
flipped out.

Speaker 5 (59:02):
She's now gone because she realizes she's enabled this, and
I guess it's broke her brain or when you went yeah,
icy spoon. So when you see her again, the first
thing she says is land jam and yeah, she's not
middle about it, and uh. And then they're out there
like the Frankenstein mob. They've got ropes and broken chairs

(59:24):
and torches and stuff like that. And then when and
then they see her in the in the store and
she's going there's the two we send against blah blah
blah and and miss yuh and Lillian Gish realizes like, uh, you.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
Better get out of here and she drags them out
the back way and is.

Speaker 4 (59:47):
Not paid off though the fact that they the mobs
going down the street, we see uh her, le Lily
and Gish leave with the kids and then hand off
to Mitch snu right back, and then it's just like
that's it. There's not a there's no further payoffs the mob.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Yeah, well there is.

Speaker 7 (01:00:07):
The hangman that they walk by him, and he's like,
with pleasure or whatever to do the job.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
I mean, there's just not a pay off to the mob,
like they're yeah, you leave them out there, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Also at the beginning, he regrets, you know, hanging Peter Graves,
and then we come back around to him he's like,
I'm looking forward to this one.

Speaker 5 (01:00:28):
Right, yeah, looking at his own kids and everything, and
then it cuts to the other kids in the playground
so thoughtfully singing the Hangman song in front of Earl
and John Yeah, and then Earl singing along with it,
and he's like, don't do that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
Again.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Pearl is so wonderfully innocent and to the point of
rushing to Mitcham's arms and really trusting him and everything.
And also just you know what happens to the money
is yeah, great.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the kids don't keep I guess the
police took the money.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
I mean, well, that's the thing. We don't know what
happens to unclear.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Yeah, don't have unless Lily and Gish spent ten thousand
dollars on the watch.

Speaker 6 (01:01:15):
They all have better clothes they.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
I've forgotten what happened to the money, and was expecting
John to hand Lily and Gish the dollar whatever and go,
this might help us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Yeah, that's because you're from today and this.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Is back then. Right, Well the money is even yeah exactly.
Lily would have been like this is blood money.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Yeah, But I mean I don't I think that the
you know, there's an expectation that would be dramatized, though,
I mean, and uh, and the fact that it's not.
Here's the thing though about a lot of this stuff
where it feels like some parts are missing or it
doesn't quite come together or whatever. I think that that's
a value in a lot of ways. I think if
this movie was more conventional, it wouldn't be thought of

(01:02:07):
as well. Now, I don't think that it I think
the gaps and stuff and the places where you can
dream about it, and the places that can haunt you
because you don't know exactly are the powerful.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Things in a lot of ways.

Speaker 5 (01:02:20):
It's interesting once Lily and shoots him with the bird shot,
you never hear mitcham again. All you hear is his
whoa as he's running though they have like a yeah
that's true, but you know that I think when they're
kind of standing off, yeah yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah, and she's like, I'm not afraid of you, and
then I'm going to join you in this him that
I know very well.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
No again, that was that was great? Kind of bizarre.

Speaker 8 (01:02:49):
Yeah, he as it's the movie like like like the
car dealer in Fargo rightly reduced to annible howls.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
Right right, interesting, hilarious.

Speaker 5 (01:03:01):
I forget who was supposed to he was originally going
to get for the Miss Cooper part, and Elsa Lancaster
said what Lillian gish And since he had been watching
all the silence, I think he was like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
Oh, yeah, duh, and you know this is perfect.

Speaker 5 (01:03:16):
And it's like because she can really talk in real
life and she is great in it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
It's amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:03:23):
What did you guys think about the messaging having to
do with children enduring tragedy and horrible things, and.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Sadly stronger and a young age, I get it, and
not certainly not under the circumstances of John and Pearl.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
But no, it's I saw truth in that. I did.
I mean, the resilience thing, I think it's just talking
of it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
I mean to me, I took it just as you know,
you have the ability to be resilient because you can
move past up. I mean that is a certainly you
know pre uh you know Freud idea, you know, yeah,
Like it's exactly like it's it's the you know, it's
it's the kind of idea of what children were in

(01:04:08):
you know that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
That I don't think we have anymore, you know, the
float down the river in Ohio. But I really that
reminds me.

Speaker 5 (01:04:17):
I always like, I'd so badly want them to grab
some food off the table before they run.

Speaker 6 (01:04:23):
Because you know, money, why didn't they use it?

Speaker 5 (01:04:27):
Made this enormous spread that ice he made, and he
puts it out like he's trying more to get the
thing out of him.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
And I'm like, I speak, it's probably because a literal
monster is following them. There's that thing where they're they're
in the cellar and they're running out and this what
is kind of an awkward shot, that profile shot of
the stairs and him like, you know, the monster.

Speaker 5 (01:04:50):
Frank absolutely Frank. And seller sellers really aren't seventy feet
tall was another great place to make that really.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
Movies are fair. It's a cruel joke.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
I've been in Amsterdam and and I've been in houses
like that and they are they are deep sellers.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
So I'm just saying, yeah, well do we want to go.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
I don't want to on that hill. I don't want
some sort of cruel joke or anything. I'm like, no,
that's not what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
Because it looks cool, it's like it's great.

Speaker 4 (01:05:23):
Yeah, well it's it's like effective. I mean, it's like
you're you know, it's it's not about making everything real,
it's about making everything feel like something.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Yeah. No, it's amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
The Stanley Cortez the DP talked about how you know,
in the interviews I watched with him, he talked, he
you know, he does the thing where he takes a
lot of credit for for the visuals of it, but
he also you know, I mean he defers in some
ways to UHL.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
But the but he Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:05:56):
He talked about making that scene where the where the
wind he kills her, the very stylized uh triangle, the
him doing and the fact that uh, that mitcham is
is doing this kind of kaligari ish sort of silent
bizarre movement business and that uh that Cortes thinks about

(01:06:22):
stuff in terms of music, and he was uh and
he was thinking, like Lawton is asking him, what what
you know, what he's thinking about when lighting it and
and uh and he tells him that it's a particular
waltz that that he's imagining that uh, that's kind of
influencing the feel of of the way he lit it.
And uh and you know, and then Lawton gets on

(01:06:43):
board with this and like they the the score ends
up reflecting that that waltz because uh, because he had
the composer h Walter Walter Shulman come down and uh
and like observe them shooting this and talked about, you know,
how the music could work with it and and and

(01:07:05):
also Walter Schulman famous for composing the dragnet theme. But
the and I actually can't think of a lot of
other stuff I know that he's done. But but like
I I the the ways that that these elements come together,
the you know, the very bold visuals that Stanley Korte
has shoots. Also, Stanley Korte has notoriously very slow, which

(01:07:28):
I think is another reason why they probably didn't get
all the shots that they needed. But very slow on
a low budget movie.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
But the but.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
Obviously it pays off in the way, you know in
some of these amazing visuals.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
They get into the Christmas ending, so where the.

Speaker 5 (01:07:47):
Everything sort of collects and tries to ground things and
that now there's this happy life. John's actually acting like
a kid who as parents. He gets a watch, which
is what I believe he wanted in the window early
on when they're looking at it, and Pearl's probably assuming

(01:08:07):
just take some money out of this doll.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
And just.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
When I first saw this film, there's I had the
I have this idea of what the ending would be,
which is, you may notice at the beginning there's a
bit where Pearl is making paper dolls out of the money,
and I thought the end of the movie would be
Robert Mission finds the money, but in saw paper dolls, and.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
That would have been a great ending.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
I'm sort of disappointed.

Speaker 3 (01:08:40):
We had these images I saw.

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
Yeah, oh this this shot actually that Yeah, the shot
of her in silhouette with the guns his lip.

Speaker 6 (01:08:53):
And he's right there.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
You want it, Yeah, with that little spot thing behind
the gun, and like, I think that's one of the
most amazing images in movie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
No, we haven't talked about Ruby, which is a very
disturbing kind of character.

Speaker 7 (01:09:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Yeah, yeah, the teenage girl who's you know, starting to
blossom and with the near you know, she's one of
Lily and Gisha's adopted kids and getting older obviously and
starting to uh.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
You know we have now boys.

Speaker 4 (01:09:26):
Yeah, we have an actual lady on the podcast this time.
What elseon What did you think about?

Speaker 7 (01:09:31):
Well, like I said before, I mean it's obvious that
like all of the women like have this weird like
he has a trance over them and something like every
single woman in the movie except for our hero, really.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
They have an effect.

Speaker 6 (01:09:48):
I thought it was interesting how frank.

Speaker 7 (01:09:50):
She was in the store about you know, oh, they're
gonna get in you know, they get in trouble, and
then I end up with another kid, and I was like, wow, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:01):
In a yeah, in a in a pre gro V
Wade world where where like people are just you know, people,
people are people, and they have sex, and then there's kids,
and then you know, and but it's the depression and
people can't take care of the kids, and you know,
it's I mean, I thought that was all pretty interesting
and an interesting not not as I mean for that

(01:10:26):
that Lillian Gish character feels like it she should be
something a little unappealing to me, you know, like that
she should be this kind of strict, bibly lady or whatever.
And but she's a little more, I think, a more
interesting and nuanced character.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
She's the right hand to Bitchub's left. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:44):
Sure, but I'm saying it shouldn't but not in a
not in a way that I don't find it as
heavy handed as that. I mean, I think that there's
something there's more interesting nuance in that.

Speaker 5 (01:10:53):
Yeah, that's where they actually take it off of John
and Pearl for a minute and let her deal with
her and she understands she's you were looking for love
and she hugs her.

Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 7 (01:11:04):
There's a realist, but she's also religious. It's like that
that combo is really where we're thinking for its time
in a movie like this.

Speaker 6 (01:11:18):
It's very interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:11:19):
And treats them, treats everybody like human beings, not you know,
she's not just judging everybody or you know, or like
making pronouncements or whatever. I mean, she treats people like
human beings and like you know that live in the world,
you know, like like we do.

Speaker 7 (01:11:35):
And if you think about it, like everybody else else
in the movie does judge people and does make pronouncements,
and like that's she's the antithesis of that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Yes, absolutely, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:11:44):
She's a little high and mighty about herself and her role,
but that's her only real that's her only real flaw
is she's like, well, I'll probably have to take care
of him because I'm so strong and this is what
I do.

Speaker 4 (01:11:56):
But self justification, Yeah, it's the setup of her character though,
I mean, like she's she's presented herself that way, but
then through her behavior we see something different.

Speaker 8 (01:12:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
How was the movie regarded contemporarily in the fifties and everything?
I mean, I know now it's a class.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
But critics hated it and.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Yeah, no, I mean again, I don't know if you
saw any quotes or anything.

Speaker 3 (01:12:22):
Like that from critics, anything specific, and I would.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Imagine that, Yeah, even an audience really wouldn't be excited
to see something that's scary and and you know threatening.

Speaker 7 (01:12:31):
I think it's probably people didn't know what to think
of it. I'd think that it was like I don't
know that, especially back then, finding its audience would have
been rather difficult.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
I think.

Speaker 4 (01:12:43):
Yeah, and we think of it as I mean, not this,
not the people in the on this podcast or whatever,
but in general, you think of of the you know
of oh, it's an old movie, it's in black and white,
it's stylized or whatever, but it's so out of step
with what was being made in the midde fifties, were
there move towards you know, more naturalism and shooting on

(01:13:03):
location and you know, stuff that is not going down
a river and ending up at two cut out houses
in the background. You know, like it's it's so deliberately stylized,
and I think that people would think look at it
and go, well, this is old fashioned and dumb, Like
we get better stuff than this, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
We like, oh it's the the tributes to the Silent film.
But in the fifties, I think a lot of people
are probably still just embarrassed by a Silence.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
Tribute I think it's just speaking in the language of
some films and you know, which is legitimate. You know,
I mean Martin SCORSESEI will use that Iris shot, you know,
like all sorts of you know there, you could use anything,
and you know, but I think that a non you know,
like the fifties were not really a time when there

(01:13:54):
was any kind of popular sense of you know, artie
films and STEVI was just you know, their cities and
cities had art houses and they you know, and you
could maybe see Cazawa and you know later Bergmann and
stuff like that. But but I don't think there was
a you know, it's not an arty movie, was never
gonna make money, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
And that's a it's a it's an arty movie, but
it's not urban or urbane right right ready for.

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
Like a it's very naive in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4 (01:14:21):
It doesn't it's not something that uh like uh sophistic
kids get behind.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Or whatever you were forgetting who who did Cape Fear?
But I wonder if this was kind of a dress
rehearsal for Mitcham's Max Katie.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
And I mean I think that it's uh, I mean,
I think it's.

Speaker 9 (01:14:40):
Uhh I do know who made the original Kate Fear,
but the but like I uh, J Lee Thompson, Thompson, I.

Speaker 4 (01:14:52):
Love uh and uh, I mean I think that it's
that that Mitcham was drawn to roles like this, right,
Like I mean he loved Lawton like apparently he was
just he and like despite how how harsh we're talking
about London being coming off in those dailies, like it's
like people were devoted to him, Like everybody they talked

(01:15:15):
to was like found him like a really compelling character
that they wanted to be there with and do this
this film with.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Well I've heard that about the k Utiney trial that
he did on Broadway and everything, and even you know,
James Garner was one of the judges that never has
a line. But it's among the the inquiry Naval inquiry
and everything while everyone is testifying and yeah, and I
mean just again, actors and actors cast of Fonda and

(01:15:46):
or not fund was it fonded?

Speaker 3 (01:15:47):
No? I think it, Yeah, was absolutely was fonder.

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):
But Fonda and okay, now Lloyd Nolan and all these
all these wonderful actors and stuff actors actors in that way,
so I could see the cast, wanting to please lot
and and everything, and appreciating his prestige and his opinion.

Speaker 8 (01:16:07):
Do we know who who lied the critical re evaluation
of the film?

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
I mean, I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:16:13):
I certainly remember it being considered something more of a
you know, of a thing in the eighties when I
was a kid and first getting into movie nerd stuff.
But I don't know really though. It must have been
in the seventies.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
I suppose that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
And again I'm being being a bit older than all
of you, but I can't say if it was seventies,
but I think it was. I think it was one
of those great Hollywood documentaries about the history of Hollywood
where they show the mitcham love hate scene and everything.
I know, by the way, Tulsa King, Uh, there's a
there's a character Robert Patrick's son has his name on

(01:16:52):
his fist, Cole and as much as Ian pointed out
in Sideshow Bob in The Simpsons. But hey, no, no, no, man,
that's that's pop culture and action.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Absolutely, man. I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
I mean, other directors started talking. I mean this Scorsese
does talk about this movie, and he was actually involved
in the restoration and he was a teacher at n
YU maybe in the seventies, so maybe he was.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Yeah, yeah, in the early seventies.

Speaker 4 (01:17:17):
Yeah he was, because like Alan Arkish was one of
his students, and Alan Arkish was working at the Fillmore
East and and uh and Martin scor says he got
tickets to see the band from him.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
So but that dates, Yeah, that makes up for heart beeps.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
Yeah, I'm not I'm not making the case for Alan
Arkish as a director.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
But also like this, this movie is, uh, you can
see the Coen Brothers, Like this movie was certainly how
to have a huge Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
Oh, and I wanted to say one thing.

Speaker 4 (01:17:51):
We were talking about how it was received at the time,
and Joe Dante did a Trailers from Hell about this
and he talked about how they've screened it at a
kid's matinee.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
This is how he saw it the first time.

Speaker 4 (01:18:05):
He said, there were like there are ten cartoons and
then apparently the only movie they had to screen was
A Night of the Hunter, which they audience of children,
who I presumably this was like seeing the Velvet Underground
and that everybody starts a band right like you like
you're traumatized by Night of the Hunter as a child,
and then you go on to make Grumlins whatever the.

Speaker 3 (01:18:25):
Fuck right, that's oh, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
That probably also perplexed critics, like it's a movie that
stars kids, but it's not four kids.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
Yeah right, right, of course.

Speaker 7 (01:18:36):
I mean that's also from a marketing perspective, I can
see them where this movie would be completely impossible to market.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
Yeah. None of the posters had the kids in them,
I guess because they didn't want people to think it
was a kid's movie. But then like when people you
would think some of these posters, you would think it's
a pro bank between Robert Mitchaminchell, it's like, who are
you selling guys?

Speaker 3 (01:18:56):
Yeah, well that's I mean so often that's the case.

Speaker 4 (01:18:58):
When there's any little thing that they can exploit that
feels like romance or maybe feels like you know, crime,
you know, that'll be the poster, regardless of the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
Like Allison says, imagine how hard to sell that is?

Speaker 7 (01:19:12):
Like, yeah, it's impossible, And.

Speaker 3 (01:19:14):
I've done Killer, and he's after.

Speaker 6 (01:19:20):
Imagine this kill good movie of the year.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
But it is kind of classic Mitcham picking rules like
this that you know, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
Care if they like it and that I think this
is interesting or whatever this is.

Speaker 4 (01:19:35):
This is also a post uh you know marijuana bust
Mitcham right that he you know, he went to the
work farm for for six months and he just fucking
came back and like just through you know, force of
not giving a fuck. It did nothing to his career,
you know, so like, uh, you know, Mitcham, Mitcham could

(01:19:56):
he could, he could go away with stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Absolutely, well, there you go, kids, we could wrap it there.
I think we did good.

Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
Yeah, unless anyone else had some final thoughts other than
obviously for the uninitiated, you got to see this movie.
You know, we did our best, but you know, feel
free if we didn't give you a clear enough picture
to consult other capsule reviews. But truly a classic from
the fifties and saw on Amazon and to b.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
I think, so yeah, just just watch it and let
it wash over you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Absolute yeah, So thank you everybody. I'm really glad everybody
could join us today.

Speaker 3 (01:20:35):
And this is great. I hope you. I hope some
of you that are.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
Like al Or or Lieber, you know, you come back
and do another movie with us at some point. That
would be great. Yeah, excellent, excellent. All right, we can
wrap it there. Thanks everybody for watching and listening. Until
next time, everybody, stay safe, stay happy, stay healthy,

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