Supergirl, Flash, and THE Crisis Sterling Gates pt 1

In this first installment of my conversation with comics and TV writer Sterling Gates, we dive into his celebrated run on Supergirl with Jamal Igle . Sterling talks about how his stories are finding new life in print—starting with the reissue of his Bizarro Supergirl arc, and continuing next year with his contributions to the New Krypton saga omnibus, co-written alongside James Robinson and Greg Rucka. We also look at the various actors who've played the woman of tomorrow, including Gates's work consulting on the Flash film's alternate earth Supergirl.

Sterling also reflects on how he first broke into writing Supergirl and later The Flash for the CW, bringing his comic book sensibilities into live-action storytelling.

We look back at the ambitious Crisis on Infinite Earths TV crossover, where Sterling played a key role in guiding actor John Wesley Shipp through an emotional moment—reprisal of his 1990s Barry Allen Flash and the character’s poignant final scene. This episode captures Sterling’s unique perspective bridging the worlds of comics and television, while celebrating both the legacies of Supergirl The Flash and the enduring power of DC’s multiverse storytelling.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, Welcome back time again for Word Balloon the
Comic Book Conversation show. John Centris with you, great two
parter coming up this weekend. Sterling Gates and I talked
on Wednesday night. We had a great conversation. Sterling started
off his writing career as an assistant to Jeff John's
he Jeff Loebe, Jeff Johns and Alan Heimberg. I'll share

(00:22):
an office the mpath Treehouse, as we've discussed in previous
conversations with Alan, Jeff and Jeff and Sterling for that matter.
Then Sterling started writing comic books and had a great
run on Supergirl with Jamal Eigel. In fact, there a
couple of his stories are being reprinted. His Bizarro Supergirl

(00:43):
story from the Igle run is going to be coming
your way very soon. But also next year they're going
to do an omnibus of the War of New Krypton.
If you remember that story, Candor gets enlarged and all
of a sudden there is a schism in the family.
Supergirl's mom, Laura becomes the leader of New Krypton and

(01:05):
is sympathetic to General Zod and says, you know, General
Zod was really more of a political opponent of Jorrel's
than a real villain and very misunderstood. Well, Alara was there.
You know, Carr was a kid, so maybe she has
a better perspective on it than cal El and Caa
we know better, of course, but it really did prose

(01:26):
for a very interesting problem where Supergirl was kind of
divided by her loyalties to Superman and her loyalties to
her mother. Plus we had the death of Zorrel, her father,
Are you kidding me? Great story? Well we talk about that.
We also get into Sterling's television writing where he started
off and wrote a freelance Supergirl script that elevated him

(01:47):
to the opportunity of working on The Flash for a
couple seasons. And he also got to work on the
Crisis on Infinite Ear's crossover, that amazing crossover that happened
between so many different shows and God, as Sterling says,
at one point they had like twenty characters in costume

(02:08):
all on the Waverrid, the time spaceship from Legends of Tomorrow.
Really really great stuff, Great memories of working with Sterling's
favorite original Flash John Wesley Shipp, who was able to
come back as nineties full national long, of course, with
his time as Jay Garrick, really really great stories in

(02:29):
part one Part two that I'll release tomorrow. Sterling also
just made an independent film that he has running around
the festival circuit. But you also get more on his
time in television, writing for The Flash, and a whole
lot more. But this is part one of a great
conversation about Supergirl, The Flash and more with Sterling Gates
on today's word Balloon. Word Balloon is brought to you

(02:52):
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(03:14):
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It's a fun way to support the show and get

(03:57):
more content you can't find anywhere else. The lead of
Word Balloon Listeners. Check it out today at Patreon dot
com slash word Balloon. Hey doing everybody, Welcome back. It's
time again for another Word Balloon Live the Comic Book
Conversation Show John Santris here Man. I haven't talked to
this guy in years, but it is great to get

(04:18):
a former resident of the mp F Threehouse on Word Balloon.
It's Sterling Gates. Welcome back, Sterling.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Hey everybody. What a cool intro. By the way, Like,
I I love that intro. I love the fists, but
I also like Alex Ross talking about the universal monsters.
It's really that's fun. He's yeah, such a talented so
and so.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh my god, yes, and you know he was kinding
up and you can appreciate this as a man of
the film world. In the television world, they had the
Kingdomcome documentary come out, and one of one of the
talking heads in it.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Of course you are, of course you should be. Uh
you you know, as a comics ambassador, you have done
so much to further information about the medium, and it
makes me so happy. Like I you know, I catch
your show, not all the time because life, but like
every time I catch your show, I'm so glad that

(05:11):
I tuned in, and you have such incredible interview subjects,
and like it's just always such a joy to see
you talk to some of these like legendary creators.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
So sometimes I refer to myself as comic book Oprah
people people. It gets open up to me in ways
that I don't expect, and it's like, yes, okay, as
you were you were watching last night, Greg Rutcka, obviously,
uh they made some you know, you know, honestly, man,
I I knew he was angry when things were bad

(05:41):
for him. I didn't realize to what extent And for
people who are listening and watching that didn't see the interview.
I encourage you to listen to it or watch it.
But yeah, it's uh. I'm glad he's better. I'm glad
that the regime at DC is better. In fact, I
didn't realize you were telling me off the air that

(06:01):
we had recorded something the last time you and I spoke, Yeah,
that I ended up not using because of your circumstances,
if you don't mind going into it.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, the last time we spoke, I was writing in
the New fifty two era, Like this is sort of
in twenty eleven, right, that was New fifty two's Yeah,
and I had done I was working on Hack and
Dove and I was done a big interview, and then
shortly thereafter I was dismissed from Hawk and Dove and
I had to kill I think I emailed you and said, look, man,

(06:31):
like unfortunately, like all of my plans are gone. So
like that's but like, the New fifty two was the
most tumultuous time in comics. Like any creator that was
a part of that, Like any creator that was a
part of that DC era is going to probably tell
you the same thing that there was a lot of confusion.
No one really knew what was happening on a day

(06:52):
to day basis. Every day we had new emails from editorial.
Can you fix this? Change this The office down the
hall doesn't agree with this story beat Like I mean
it was, it was a very tumultuous time for creative
and you know, and then over the course of a
couple of years it's settled. And then you know, I
worked on Vibe. I did a Vibe book, Justice Seago

(07:14):
America Presents Vibe, and you know, I did a bunch
of stuff and Forever Evil that story.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Who was your villain? Who was your villain?

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Then I did Killer Frost, which is where we created
Caitlin Snow who then became the character on the Flash
TV show. And I did Black Adam. I wrote the
Black Adam issue. Uh. And I did the Secret Society
issue about the Outsider and and uh Kadransky did that,
did the art for that issue and it was so good.

(07:46):
Simon was.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
That Flashpoint outsider or was that h different outsider? Who
it was?

Speaker 2 (07:55):
It was? Sorry, I guess it was like the the
evil version of the version. I think. So honestly, you're
asking questions that I've forgotten answers to.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Like, yeah, man, it was like seven years ago or so. Yeah,
I believe me, it's.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Cool it was it was twelve years ago.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Oh my god, Well there you go, man, it was
a little.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Bit a decade of my life ago. And so like
I did that, those issues were super fun to do,
Like Forever Evil was such a fun. Oh when I
did the Argus mini series with Steve Trevor and Killer
Frost is like a team up book. Those issues were
super fun to do. But like the specifics of some
of that stuff, a lot of life has happened since then,
A whole pandemic has happened since then, So I don't

(08:35):
I don't remember all the specifics I shouldn't want.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Stuff, and a lot of and a lot of your
TV and film work since then as well. And we'll
get to that. But I know one of the reasons
why you're on, and you'll forgive me because I couldn't.
I wasn't able to find the cover. But it's are
they called DC digests, the new reprints that are like
five by eight or whatever they are is, and that
what the new Crypton stuff is being presented or is

(08:58):
there regularly.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
The new Crypton stuff is coming on an omnibus form.
Oh and crazy. So I got an email from DC.
They're reprinting some of my Supergirl issues and I think
they're going to be part of the like the DC
Comics companion line. I can't remember what it's called. That's
all right, it's form. So the reprint Zorro Girl story

(09:23):
is being reprinted next year in time for the movie
to come out. And so in that email thread, I
was like, they asked me about other Supergirl reprints, and
I said, you know what I really would love to
come out of DC is doing new crypt on an
omnibus format in reading order, which we never got to do.
And the editor was like, oh, you mean this thing

(09:45):
that we're planning on launching in February of next year.
And I was like, holy shit, like really and like yeah,
And I said I would love the opportunity to re
order the books in the way they're meant to be read.
And they sent me the book map and it was
all at a whack, like they had taken basically each
trade and put in trade order, and that story was

(10:07):
never meant to be read that way. That story was
always meant to be Jumping from Greg's issues to James's
issues to my issues and back and forth throughout. That
was how it was designed. That's why we did triangle numbers, sure,
you know. And the example that I used that I
think really sparked their interest was who is Superwoman? Which

(10:27):
was my first big Supergirl story, five issue story World
of New Crypton number one hits, and then that whole
story takes place over a couple of days, and then
World of New Crypton number two references that story as
a thing that has just happened, and they were like
completely flabbergasted by that, and I said, guys, let me

(10:48):
just sit down and work out the reading order. And
so it took me like a month because it's one
hundred and fifty issues to reorder the entire thing in
cont with what the conversation they were having. And then
like you know, they were trying to figure out where
the Blackest Night Superman story hits and where like Jeff
was doing that Superboy story and where does that hit,

(11:09):
and like all that's like it took a lot of work.
But New Krypton will be a if knock on Wood.
It'll be a three omnibus volume series that has all
of New Krypton in order in a way you've never
read it before. And then I wrote the introduction for
volume one talking about like the challenge of taking material

(11:34):
from seventeen years ago and then re ordering it to
read smoothly, and like, if Lois is doing a thing
in one of Greg's issues, then she can't be doing
a thing in the Supergirl issues, so we need to
move that Supergirl issue chronologically down that like it. It
became an Excel spreadsheet of charting where each character was.

(11:56):
And I know in two thousand and nine someone Oriole
had done this work, but there's been a company move
from New York to LA a lot of those editors
are long gone. I'm the person left holding holding the
torch of New Crypton of like, this is how we
need to present this story. So it was a really
unique opportunity and I'm very thankful DC let me do that.

(12:20):
A got named Jeb Woodard and Alex Galler I think
are the DC the people at DC that are helping
me do that. But it's been really fun, it's been
a lot of it's been a lot of work because
again New Krypton's one hundred and fifty issues across three years, So.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
If I remember correctly, Candor is made full size and
we get a planet and Zod is released from the
Phantom Zone, and of all people a Laura, Supergirl's girl
mother is like, I don't know how to break it
to you, but all these things that you've learned about
Zod are wrong. He was a political prisoner. There is

(12:59):
and it's ironic that we're talking on a very political
sad day. Yes, that's all I'll say about the real world.
That we're here to allow you to get away from
the misery that's sad that we're all in right now.
Uh and and regardless uh the uh. But but it
really was interesting because both Kara and Cal had to

(13:20):
suddenly realize, well, what did we grow up with? If
you know, the bad guy may not really be a
bad guy, and and so it really was a great thing.
I I have the Alex Ross, one of the Alex
Ross covers love that was during your run. But I
also wanted to acknowledge and and I did this just
to encapsulate his great work. You're wonderful collaborator, Jamal Like.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Jamal what a guy like? Yeahmendous guy, tremendous person, lovely
human being, incredible artist. We've actually pitched DC a couple
of times to come back and do a Super Bowl
mini series, and they've very politely declined because they have
other pat But I would work with Jamal on a
fucking beat. OK. He is, for my money, one of

(14:03):
the most talented artists in the entire comics scene, specifically
American superhero comics. But like he can draw anything. And
part of the joy of working with him was every
script I would throw him a curveball just to see
what he would do. And the one that I remember
most was he his wife is French and they had

(14:26):
gone to France on vacation, and the next issue I
wrote this giant fight scene in front of the Eiffel Tower,
and the joke that I made was like, well, now
your trip as a research trip, it's a tax ride off,
but like, I want to see you draw the.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Eiffel Tower, man, Like what does it look like?

Speaker 2 (14:44):
And so we have like night Wing and Flamebird and
Supergirl are fighting like squad k which is the thing
that was in the books at the time, in front
of the Eiffel Tower, and like they fire off like
red sun grenades and then they crashed through into the
Paris sewers, so you get to draw the sewers and
like all this stuff. It was just such a joy
to work with him, in part because anything I threw

(15:06):
at him he elevated so much. You know, I own
the original artwork I had framed on the wall, the
original artwork of New Krypton exploding. Oh wow, And like
that moment was such a monumental. I mean, it was
literally the climax of three years of work. And the
challenge to him was, like, can you make the destruction

(15:27):
of a planet like Visceral? And you know, and like
in the foreground Superman is fighting zod Orsa non and
then in the background, this entire planet's just coming apart,
and it's one of the most incredible pieces of artwork.
And he's just he's such an amazing artist. And we
were so lucky to have him on Supergirl those years.
So lucky, I legit, Like, I can't say enough good

(15:51):
stuff about that guy, Like he's he was such a
great partner, greative partner.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Absolutely no, you guys were a great team. And I
want to announce some of the comments already getting in
the Peanut gallery.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh can I see the comments are they're n.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yep, Sterling, miss your comics, Your Supergirl with the incredible
Jamal Aigel made me love Kara. Also, I still love
a world of New Krypton. Wish you and James got
to do your original version of the War. What was
the version that we got and what, well, what did
you guys want to do and what did we end
up getting instead? War the Superman?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
The War the Superman. You know, we we'd originally envisioned
that project as it was the climax of several years
of Superman and Supergirl stories, and we envisioned it New
Krypton was always going to explode, like it was like
Reactron was always the bomb that destroyed New Krypton, and
it helped it weirdly helped legitimize Reactron up until that

(16:47):
point because he was he was a lower tier Supergirl
villain we had built up. And then once we made
once we stumbled on like, oh he's the bomb, it
made him. Oh he's one of the biggest Supergirl villains
of all time. Like he killed car as Mom, he destroys,
he kills all the many of the New Cryptonians. There
are still some, you know, folloating around the idea was,

(17:09):
once you destroy a Krypton and all the surviving Kryptonians
came to Earth for revenge, Revenge of the Superman basically,
and then you got all of Sam Lane's forces he's
been amassing over the last couple of years fighting and
all the DC heroes kind of caught in between. So
we were going to do a company wide crossover that

(17:31):
was I think six months. Like we wanted to run
it kind of like seinesterral Core, where it's like there's
one main through line book and then if you choose,
if your book chooses to participate, we would give you
a Kryptonian thing that we can reference in the main
book and run out like Sinlester Corps, you know, when
I like crossed over a Blue Beetle and crossed over
all these kind of books. But we wanted to give

(17:52):
everyone at d C, every creative team, an opportunity to
take part in a giant Superman story and we uh
As Greg pointed out earlier this week, that era of
d C was very tumultuous and a lot of editorial
teams were not necessarily gelling with one another. I'm being

(18:15):
politically as being as political as possible here, and as
a result, the meeting became, we're not doing a six
month crossover with all the books. We're doing six issues now,
five issues across one month, and we're just finishing the
story as quickly as we can so that we can

(18:35):
get to Razinski's Superman Walks Across America story, And that's
a whole other story different.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
I was. I was in the GMTS doghouse for a
long time because of my editorial frustration with that ridiculous story,
and I'll and I'll still see it. I thinking, and
the thing that I said in the.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Meeting was make Walking Superman a mini series, like that's
a that's a perfectly fun like six events series. Instead
of cutting our two plus years of build up short
to satisfy the needs of that story, let us do
our big story and get people excited to read Superman

(19:22):
versus all the Kryptonians and Zod, you know, generally, like
all the ship we've been building. Let us tell that
story and let Jams do his own story over here
wherever he wants to, like, of course, and you'll get
more juice of a number one, Yeah, more juice, and
you can make that u we're launching a new Superman

(19:43):
series and you put him on the news or wherever
that that. I had that conversation and was very politely
told to show the bunk up because that's what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Ster, you'll forgive me, just like I told Greg. I
got that from a demonetization standpoint. I gotta watch the story. Yeah,
that's okay, Hey man, you're you're you're talking to the
king of that box. And it's one of the reasons
why I went to the internet was I wouldn't have
an FCC telling me you can't use enough fu fair.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
I'm sorry, pardon me.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Then that's a fair is an acceptable word.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
That's so our story got cut very short to denist
mister Hoffman's point, like, our story was cut way shorter
than we planned for it to be. And so what
was going to be like an epic issue of the
Guardian fighting Codeym Assassin with Jimmy Olsen caught in the middle,
turned into four panels or two pages or what. And

(20:33):
that's the storytelling became so shortened that became, at Alex
Sigura's suggestion, it became the one hundred Minute War and
so right because Alex was with DC.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
At that point, and that's really like good marketing.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
It's sort of a twenty four television show kind of
countdown clock of what happens across one hundred minutes when
you got fifteen thousand Kryptonians, all of whom are as
powerful as Superman in theory, coming after our Earth's heroes
and our Earth. So it changed the nature of the
story for the better, question mark, It helped us sort

(21:09):
of blow out all that stuff as fast as possible.
We had a lot of conversations about what to prioritize
as a result, and the story became We've spent all
this time focusing on Superman and Supergirl and their relationship,
and that's the heart of that entire thing. And so yeah,
Supergirl an issue two is turned against the Earth and

(21:31):
Superman has to sort of pull her back into the
light and then she's like, oh, like I have to,
you know, I'm caught in the middle. What do I do?
And it led to a lot of great emotional work
that we did with those characters. But it always is
kind of a bummer because like the last stand of
New Krypton, which was the story that led into where
the Superman, you know, we got to do. I think

(21:53):
it's like twenty parts and it's like all the stuff
with the Legion and bringing Ac and new Crypton and
all this stuff, and then it's like, okay, now we're
ready for the big climac climactic style like series. And
then it was all just cutting into one month's time
essentially because of editorial decisions. And and they're very they

(22:14):
almost characters the right to make whatever editorial decisions they
want to, Like, I got it. I just I said
in the room, we should just make the Walking Superman
its own deal and let us finish this story that
we've been building. And there was such a thirst from
higher up editorial who shall remain nameless to cut it
off and be done.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, yeah again you got you got rock star sci
fi writer Jams coming on SUPERMANUT. It's going to be
a big deal, and I agree with you, it would
still be a big Guys introduced again a reassessment initially
of Zion. Well wait a minute, maybe he's not the
big bad Way thought the relationship between A Laura and
Kara was fantastic because you know, and I mean, it

(22:58):
broke my heart when you guys killed off Zorrel Yeahara's dad,
but it just really it gave you guys a good
opportunity to examine this mother daughter relationship. And ye know,
all of a sudden, the Laura who never had agency
I think prior to your guys run and now all
of a sudden, she's a three dimensional character and it's like, well,

(23:20):
she was there, so you can't just dismiss her of
what you're wrong. He's the bad guy, and it's like, again,
she was an adult. I mean, even Kara at Argo
City being a teenager and stuff, it still doesn't have
the perspective of an adult woman who was I saw.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
The thing we always said was like everything Superman knew
about Zod he learned from a Joelle hologram, like everything
he knew about Zod and the last son Jeff addressed
a lot of that stuff of like, oh, Zod's a
bad guy, and like underscored Zod's a bad guy, and
it's like, well, in the context of that story, yes,
but moving forward with him being a general, he was
a bad guy because he was in the phantom zone

(23:55):
and he dropt an F bomb. But I didn't he
was a bad guy because he was in the phantom zone.
And then he comes out and there's all this stuff
with Chris Kent and Ersa and all that stuff. But
if you take him out of that context and you
put him back at the head of a Kryptonian army,
and now he's fighting for his people, just like Sam Lane, xenophobe.
Sam Lane is like, we have to murder these aliens

(24:17):
to save our people. Zod says, we have to defend
ourselves from the aliens to keep our to save our people.
And you've got two diametrically opposed military forces suddenly at
odds with the sun in between them, and Superman and
Supergirl cotton in the middle. That's drama and that's interesting,
and that was the drive of those two and a

(24:38):
half years of Superman Supergirl stories, watching these two incredibly
militaristic minded humans moving chess pieces across the board and
seeing what shook out. And then finally one wins the
war quote unquote, and one loses the war and then retaliates,

(24:59):
and that was the war. The Superman was Zod's was
Lane finally putting his stuff in play, and Zod's retaliation,
and again our main character is butting heads because they're
literally caught in the middle of these two chess masters,
and that was what was fun about that whole story
was like we you know, we would meet every week

(25:20):
on Wednesday on the phone and we would talk out,
what's the next five months of story, where are the
chess pieces going, who's doing what? You know? Night Wing
and Flamebirds sort of were off on their own path
doing a very mythologically based version of fighting that war.
Supergirl was dealing with her mother and or being upon

(25:43):
her mother, I mean, for all into the purposes. Supergirl
gets used as a pawn by Laura in a way
that we'd never that the Supergool comics had never really explored,
Like I think I can name on one hand the
a Laura centric Supergirl stories prior to New Krypton, and
they're you and far between, you know, ones in the
sixties and ones in the seventies. They're very far apart,

(26:06):
and they're always it's always like a one off, ten
pager in adventure comics. So we got to really explore
a character who had never historically been explored. I wish
I had done more, like I wish we'd done an
Allura mini series of just seeing what it's like when
you're in charge of a planet. Yeah, it's a thing

(26:27):
that we talked about. DC at the time was not
looking for more for more spin offs out of New Crypton,
so we're very contained. I think I got to do
one one Allura centric issue and it was sort of
my thesis statement on like why is she this way?

(26:48):
And what is her what is the thinking behind using
Supergirl as her as a secret weapon? And then I
got to do the reverse of how to Supergirl feel
about all of all of the stuff that Alaura is doing.
So that time was so fun. Man, Like that book

(27:08):
against Supergirl and Superman and the Flash are my three
favorite fictional characters of all time, and so getting to
do a deep dive into Supergirl in her mythology and
by extension, Superman, but primarily I was the Supergirl writer
of that time period. Getting to do those deep dies
was like it gave me a lot of life at

(27:29):
that point, and it really it really helped put me
on a map creatively because people were seeing Supergirl stories
they'd never really seen before. There was a period in
that character's life in the early two thousands where she
was very much a sex spot character, and we worked
very hard to pull her out of that take yes,

(27:51):
and make her like a teenager, you know, the maiden
of Might or whatever, like she was the teenager of Steel.
Like we tried to like make her more of a
standalone character in the context of all the Superman stuff,
Like you can only take us so far out of
the Superman stuff, because sure she's part of that world.
But we worked really hard to like change the tone

(28:15):
of her stories.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
No, people go back to the Library of Word Balloon
you'll you'll hear uh Sterling and Jamal talk about that
and how they really did want to make her more
of a real teenager and away from you know, the
hottie that she was portrayed as. Ang see who I
met again just last month at terrificon and it's a
massive Supergirl fan and.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
Runs a website. He runs a Supergirl box.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Commentary absolutely and so many great Supergirl moments. A new
Krypton death of a Laura still haunts me. Those are
among his comments that are here in the chat.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
So I have access to the chat? Can I see
the chat? I don't know what I can.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
You should be able to, man, it should be able
to be there on the right side. But yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Now I can see it.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, so hear that your stuff is being reprinted. I
Wattermark for Supergirl, especially Bizarro Girl. So yeah, there's that.
Landon wanted to know your thoughts on how Car is
being written currently in Mark Wade's World's Finest.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I love that take. The Supergirl Robin Date issue is
one of my favorite single issues in recent comicook history. Sure,
you know, one of the things they've done with Supergirl
since I mean all those years ago, is they've really
worked to age her up and mature her a lot.
You know. You see it in Tom King's stuff, and

(29:37):
you see it in Mark stuff, Like they've worked very
hard to make her a twenty something year old in
a way that we were never really allowed to like
you know she was. I mean, let me tell you,
I had to have many conversations with editorial about doing
a Supergirl birthday issue because that ages up the character.
And it's like, okay, but comics are you can do

(29:59):
a Simpson episode of where it's Bart's birthday and it
doesn't change Bart Simpson. Why can't you do birthday issues
with these characters? You know? And I think the start
of a Woman of Tomorrow is like Kara's twenty first birthday,
and now they play her as in the comics, they
play her as she's a twenty something year old and
she's figuring out her life as an early twenty something

(30:21):
year old, whereas when I was writing her, she was
very much a seventeen year old, and like I think
in Loeb's version, which was a few years before me,
she was fifteen ish.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
And then she's super Girl from Krypton with Michael Early,
Mike Turner, right, like Mike Turner, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, great, Superman,
Batman Mini serious.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think I think they played her as a fifteen
year old, and then she was sixteen years old for
the first chunk of her issues, and then we aged
her seventeen, and I think by the time I left
the book, we just said she's seventeen years old, and
now they've aged her into her early twenties, which allows
you to tell different types of Supergirl stories. Sure, it

(31:04):
feels a little less and I mean no harm here.
It feels a little less skeazy. If you want to
make sex pot Supergirl a story and she's some of
her tunnies. If that's the choice you make, great it
feels less weird. Then I open a book about a
sixteen year old and she's bent over a pool table
like a skirt. Like that was very much a product

(31:24):
of twenty three years ago. I don't know that you
would do that necessarily now.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
God. Yeah, I mean, my god, you know and listen,
Mike Turner, great, great artist, wonderful, our sad loss and everything,
but you know, yeah, you could see her underwear. I mean,
because she's making the whole first issue, like I forget
about that, and it's like a riff on splash and
I understand that it's a famous movie like two year
old naked, and like I.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
The like the metric I always used was like, is
my mom gonna feel embarrassed for me to read? To
read this story? And she opens up an issue and
it's a fifteen year old naked running around. I think
my mom would have issue with that. When we worked
to pull her out of.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
That version, I'm with you, man, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
You know. And we had our detractors. We had people
that wanted her to stay sexy Supergirl and like, sure, okay,
you've got all those issues. They're still in your like
short boxes, like enjoy We're doing a different version of
that character.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
And so can I get it? Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
I was going to say, be things. I became a
Supergirl with the TV series, so older comics have sometimes
been hard to come by. I look forward to reading
your run with the new collection releases. Absolutely then and
you know, again, the great thing was all that stuff
dovetailed into what you ended up doing in TV. And

(32:51):
also before we get to TV, I mean, there are
all the various iterations and folks, if you you know,
let's not forget Sterling. You know, spent years on the
Flash TV series again one of his favorite characters, and
uh you know, also was on the Supergirl TV series
as well, the great Melissa b Nois it's been nosed.
It's okay, like moist okay, been noised. But yeah, man.

(33:14):
And also I don't know if James has penned a
year on a new Supergirl that will get next year.
And we got her too little cameo in the movie
and stuff. I think she was great and I really
did love party Girl, Party Girl, Supergirl, and I look
forward to how we get from that, you know, Hangover

(33:37):
Supergirl that we got at the end of the movie
and the Superman Movie two Tom's Women of Tomorrow story,
And my suspicion is, as much as the plot might follow, Uh,
that's Woman of Tomorrow's story, that we're going to see
this kid grow up and have to deal with some
real consequences as opposed to partying on Rigel seven or.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Wherever radl seven. It's a star Trek planet and read it.
My suspicion is her coming back to get her dog
is in the middle of the Supergirl story. Is my suspicion? Oh? Interesting,
later and we'll see her get back to Earth and
see that scene from her point of view. I have

(34:19):
known inside knowledge on this one.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
That's great, man, No, that's a good idea. But yeah,
I want to know your thoughts real fast about before
we get into Flash and some of the and also
a really cool movie that Sterling made recently. Yeah, we'll
talk about, but yeah, thoughts on the various Supergirls with
that over the years. There's Helens Later, of course.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, absolutely one of my So I tell that story
a lot in interviews, but like one of my earliest
memories of seeing movies in general is watching Supergirl with
Helen Slater on VHS tape, Like like my parents, God
bless them. I was very much raised by the television
and my comic books, and like they would just walk
me in front of it TV and it turn it

(35:01):
on and walk away, And that has happened to a
lot of children of that era. But I distinctly remember
being at a party that my parents were at and
they put all of us kids in front of the
TV in a VCR and they turned on the Supergirl movie,
just enchanted by Helen Slater and thought she was And

(35:24):
the movie is whatever. The movie is what it is,
and it's pretty much a product of the early eighties,
and it's they really leaned into sort of the magical,
the magical girl angle of that style of fairy tale
brought to life storytelling the international cuts a little more cohesive.
But it's hard to track down, but I think Helen

(35:46):
Slater shines.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
In that movie. Yeah, I thought she was great.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Like Heart Backner or Faye Dunaway or any of the
other people that were in that movie. Tool like you
know and and his scenes do not mix at all.
Like it's very It's a tough watch to watch as
an adult. As a child, the sort of magical realism
thinking of that movie was awesome, super good. It was

(36:12):
so hard in the book. At that time, DC was
not allowed to use anything the Salkinds had developed, which
included zod ersa non Because Donner did those books with Jeff,
they opened up the Salkinds catalog and zoders None were

(36:34):
suddenly in continuity. And I said, great, I want to
put Zaltar and the omegahedron and all that stuff in continuity,
like let's let's do it, like we're we're back baby,
and I got we got a very nice email back
from the salt kindness and saying no. So we created
a character called Zaltel that is very similar to Zaltar
but is not the same character. And we created the

(36:55):
alphahedrons uh, which helped power the new Crypto on Blah
blah blah blah blah machine. And that was just it
was necessity because I wanted to use those concepts in
those characters, and we just weren't allowed to. I think Selena,
who was Fai Donaway's character, shows up in Steve Orlando's run.
I want to say, like, I think they've opened. Helen

(37:18):
was the only good thing about that movie. I mean,
the score is pretty great. Jerry Goldsmith. Come on, and
the costume is classic. I mean that yeah, oh no, great,
it laid the foundation of every future live action Super
Bowl production. So like, I give that movie a lot
of credit. It is not the everyone involved, including Mark

(37:40):
McClure and the poor lady who played Lucy whose name
escapes me. Like everyone involved their best. It's just the
movie is not. The movie suffers from being a magical
realism superhero movie in the early nineteen eighties, and that
comes with a lot of question marks. And there are
so many scenes that don't really lead into each other.
There a giant monster in the Phantom Zone that never

(38:01):
really plays out. Like, there's so many things that don't
add up to something like a standard movie. But in
terms of the magical realism and it all works, it's fine.
What it gave us was I am Carl z Orela
Vargo City. I am a superhero and I have no
like that that classic line, like it gave us a
strength for that character to come from that every on

(38:23):
screen iteration has embodied and writ.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Large so great. You know who one of the bright
spots of the Flash movie was this super girl or
woman however you want to put it. But yeah, I thought,
I thought Sasha was really really great and again if
there was any wrinkle from while that, and of course
there was great Seede Keaton back as Batman. But yeah,
those are really to me. I again, I'll be honest,

(38:50):
I'm not a fan of the movie.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Are you ready for your exclusive scoop on the Flash
movie from supergirlates well and a Flash TV writer. So
I was the Supergol consultant on that movie.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Oh my god, I didn't realize man done.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
I met with Andy and Sasha and had a very
nice couple zooms with them and sent them a bunch
of comics and like pointed them towards what I think
is the most like iconic version of Supergirl. Sasha played
a very different version, obviously because of the nature of
that story, but like, it was really fun to talk

(39:27):
to them about what I believe in that character and
why I believe what that character represents and why I
believe that. So it was really fun to be like
tangentially connected to that movie. I did not get a
special thanks for on screen credit. I don't care like
to say that I got to consult on the Flash
movie about Supergirl is such like a joyful thing for me,

(39:50):
And yeah, I thought she was one of the best
parts of that movie, hands down. So and I thought
performance was amazing. I was ready for the movie that
came after starring her as super that. Yeah. Obviously in
the post James gunn DCU like that's not gonna happen,
But like I thought, she was phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Jerry Stokes wanted to comment regarding JMS leaving in his
story being prioritized and then leaving after four issues. Well,
here's my editorial comment, Jerry, I agree with you. I
really felt not only him, and you know something he
in fairness to JMS, he was going through blindness and

(40:29):
thought he was going to be permanently blind. We didn't
know that at the time. If we did, we would
have certainly given him a lot more sympathy at the time.
And I certainly am glad that subsequently had a fantastic
interview with him, then him a couple of times, and
I think everything's cool now. But regardless now that this
wasn't I don't know if it was in his dealer
or not, but taking Superman and Wonder Woman off the

(40:51):
table for the other books and requiring whoever was writing
Justice League at the time if it was James or whomever,
you know, you can't use Superman because JMS has used him. No,
you can't use Wonder Woman because JMS is using him,
and then to abandon it. Chris Robertson took over that
Superman story. Phil Hester took over the Wonder Woman's story.

(41:12):
It was a mess, and it's and it's disappointed and
also none of it stuck. So again, while congratulations editorial,
you chose poorly as the templar, and I told us
in Indiana Jones.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
To Chris's credit, I thought he made and he did
an incredible job shoring up that Superman story and we
got some really good Chris Raverson writing out of it,
and I appreciated those issues a lot.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Andre's right, I thought it was Dawyne mcduffiey. I wasn't certain,
but yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
That seems so long ago. I mean that's like fifteen plus. Yeah,
like it's so long ago. But yeah, like I again,
in hindsight twenty twenty of now, they could have just
made a mini series and it could have been six issues,
twelve issues, whatever, and like we could have finished all
of what we were doing and then and then whatever happened, happened,

(42:06):
But hindsight, you know, again, editorial was at war in
twenty ten and it was very tumultuous time. And then
on top of all of that, that was twenty ten
and then twenty eleven, new Kryptons start, new fifty two starts,
so all the books just went away, and then we
had all knew everything was different. So who knows even

(42:28):
if we had done those stories, who knows what would
have stood, because suddenly everything continuity restarted, yes, and then
five or six years later you had DC Rebirth, which
restarted continuity and tried to fold in all the versions.
And like DC continuity as a DC kid has been
very tough to follow the last fifteen years, say the
least is it? Yeah, again, I'm being very politic about it,

(42:52):
but like I it's my favorite fictional universe, and even
I have trouble sometimes parsing out what is happening, and
it's happening like now Supergirl in the books, every story
has ever happened in the books, And okay, so she
was a soap opera star and then she was a
camera person for a movie and then like all that

(43:12):
stuff happened. That's hard to wrap my head around because
there have been five different iterations in the last twenty
five years. Like, it's very tough sometimes, but that's the
nature of comics, and that's the nature of this type
of serialized storytelling. You're always gonna have to you know,
there are so many websites that are super helpful for

(43:34):
that was one of the conversations I had with Andy
Muskieti and Sasha was like they had read the wiki,
and the wiki is for Supergirl is very tough to
parse because you're dealing with seventy years of continuity trying
to filter it all down into one movie with one
character who has conservatively fifteen scenes, and that can be

(44:00):
very tough, and so like, part of what I tried
to do as a consultant was just like lead them
into hear the successful versions. There she is, and that
costume is so good.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
I love the costume absolutely, and and I even love
the choice as opposed to traditional Supergirl being blonde. That
and again you know, different, different circumstances and different Supergirl.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
I thought she was amazing. I mean, I can't see
performance Melissa as well, Like Melissa is incredible, so great.
I'm excited to see where Millie goes, and you know,
we only had one scene with her, so I can't
it is what it is. But but Melissa, like you know,
she gave it her all in on that show, and
really I think set up a new generation of Supergirl fans.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
No in your in your c W TV years, did
you were you a story editor at both Flash and Supergirl.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Or I was a freelancer on Supergirl like they they
hired They literally called me in to say, can you
co write one episode I had done at that point,
Adventures of Supergirl, which was the season one comic book.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, yeah, the CW interpretation, absolutely yeah, And they really.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Liked that book a lot. They also, you know, season one,
they had used a lot of my comics and the
relationships in the comics as their pitch material for the show,
especially the Supergirl versus Cat Grant dynamic, and that became
the thrust of season one like that, plus Deublwaar's product

(45:40):
equals Supergirl season one a lot of ways. And so
they had hired me to do a comic book crossover
and I got to go to their offices and I
they had just cut whatever the Red Tornado episode is
in season one they had just gotten like the direct cut,
and so I got to sit with them at the

(46:02):
like at a mix and watch that early episode and
I was like, oh my god, like you got a
chef's kiss, Like what a show, you know. And that's
the one where she's like screaming in rage and does
the super nova and like blows her out, like blows
all her powers out. And then the next episode is
Human for a Day, which is an amazing episode.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
You know.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
I was in like a big fan of that version
of that character. And they were shooting in La and
so I, having just done the comic, was like, can
I go to set? Like like you're shooting at Warners,
which is just like up this, Can I go to set?
And a lot of emails later they were like, yes,
go to set. So on my birthday of that year,

(46:40):
I have a picture of me and Melissa like on
my birthday in front of her ship in the Deo uh,
in the Deo set. And so I was like, I
was a big fan and a runner of super Girl
knew that, and you know, we had a lot of
conversations about the book when I was doing it. And
then in season two I got a kind of random

(47:01):
email that was just like would you be interested in
co running an episode? And my response was like all
caps like A and then all the exclamation marks, and
I was like yes, absolutely, and then I hit send,
and then ten minutes later I was like, oh my god,
that was so unprofessional. I'm like, absolutely, I would love
to write an episode of DO television. So that sounds

(47:23):
like such a lovely time. When can I be there?
What am I doing? Like?

Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, but you were part of the family already being
with your flash experience correct or did flash come after?

Speaker 2 (47:31):
No?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Flash was after?

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Like like so okay ready and then and he wrote
back like what do you know about mixes pitolic? And
I was like ugh. And so my first day in
that writer's room as a freelancer, like they were, I
would think I was episode two thirteen and to twelve.
Episode twelve of season two to twelve had just been

(47:55):
thrown out and so they had to redo that episode.
And so showrunner comes in and goes sterling tell me
every kind of kryptonite start at the beginning, and I
was like, oh, okay, and I just rattled off and
like I'm I'm getting into like jewel kryptonite and like
why ye, and I'm looking around the room and everyone's
just staring at me, and I'm like, do you not

(48:16):
do you guys not know this stuff? And Derek Simon,
who's this incredible writer, means every goes no one knows
that stuff but you, buddy, And I'm like, oh, okay,
well I see how I'm useful.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
And so it's like, yeah, that's like Jeff wasn't though.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
And so two twelve became like they go into Luther's
vaults and discover all these like weapons to fight Supergirl,
and like I made the list of the weapons to do,
like I was part of that writer's room, helping them
break that story. And then and then then they turned
you know, a week later, I was like, okay, now
we have to break to thirteen mixes pidolic and like,
and then we just started breaking to thirteen. And I

(48:50):
was there for a month and I kept coming back
every day till finally they were like, Okay, your script
is done. I can't afford to keep paying. I can't
pay you to keep coming back, but like, thank you
for your time, and like that was thanksgiving, I think.
And then and then my episode aired and everyone liked
it except for the Internet, and the Internet blamed me

(49:14):
for a lot of things that I had nothing to
do with in that episode and stuff that I didn't write.
It will hound me to my dying day that people
thought I wrote that line about being a misogynist on
Daxum and I did not write that line at all,
for the record. But then I got a phone call
in April of that year and they season four of

(49:35):
The Flash was going forward and when I come joined
the Flash writer's room, and so I joined in April
of twenty seventeen, and then I was in that writer's
room until the pandemic April of twenty twenty. So it
was three years of my life working on The Fast Alive.
And yeah, and it was like what a joy? What

(49:56):
a joy? Show? Like that show? It was my then
favorite TV show season four. That costume in season four
is so good. I what a good costume?

Speaker 1 (50:08):
No, And you know, Grant was excellent. And again that
might be no disrespect to Ezra. Ezras had personal issues,
and I respect it is what it is. I just
never warmed to their portrayal of Barry. I like Grant
Berry being grounded a little more. And I also understood
the thinking for the film version of Barry because yeah,

(50:30):
well he's fast, he's hyper. Of course, he's you know what.
I get it. Yeah, his mind moves as quickly as
he does. I get it. But yeah, I I just
never warmed to it, even in you know, Batman v.
Superman and and the and the Justice League movie, let
alone Asra's own solo movie or a duo movie playing.
That's why we had two different versions of the same

(50:51):
the same actor and character.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
I'm like, you know, the conversation that I always had,
And again, no shame to their game. I always felt
like the Flash movie was a sequel to a movie
that we'd never seen, and the audience, their reaction is
confusion for a lot of it because they're referencing stuff
that happens in a story we have. He opens the
window and goes, lightning came through this window, and like, again,

(51:15):
if my mom's the barometer, my mom has no idea
how Barry Allen got got And so they open the
window and lightning is gonna come through and it's gonna
hit you. That's we want to see. We the audience
need to see the first version of those events, and
it felt like they were just leaping forward no again,

(51:35):
no offense to our friends that Warner Brothers or DC.
It just felt like they leapt forward too far for
an audience to get excited for. The Superman movie does
not do right like as the Superman Movie at least
gives you enough context, and we have seen Superman and
Krypton and all that stuff dozens of times across our lifetimes.

(51:57):
The Slash is not the Flash is not the same, correct.
This origin story is not one that people instantly know now,
regardless of the millions of humans who watch the Flash
TV show, and we think for other course viewership. So
it's a tough ask when you're trying to duplicate the
origin story that we don't know, and it leaves a

(52:18):
lot of people in we just question marks in their
in their brain.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
I'm just like, what is that?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Why is he doing this? What's I don't And it's
expecting you to buy into Barry's story and we haven't
seen Barry's story, And that was always, to me, the
toughest jump I know Barry Allen's story, like the I
have framed in my office the panel of him being
struck by lightning from Showcase number four. I got it

(52:44):
blown up on a big canvas, my all time favorite panels.
I understand Barry Owen's origin story. The common person walking
into that movie just did not.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
No, And in fact, that's what I think it has
suffered and made Thunderbolt suffer at the box office. And
even FF as big as and important as f F
is to the Marvel universe. It's not Superman, it's not Batman,
it isn't spider Man. I mean Wolfverine thankfully has had
a lot of good movies and and good success with

(53:15):
them when when it was happening, But no, it was.
It's a big ask. Even though we twenty years ago
got the first you know, ten story FF movie and
the and the sequel and everything. No, so I get it.
And also again the strike, the pandemic, streaming, all of
being comfortable watching watching movies at home rather than theater.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yeah, it's all gonna affect everything. You know. The f
F movie, they at least gave you sort of a montage,
an origin montage that like, okay, now I'm kind of
up to speed. Yeahs a Superman movie. It's got the
text like here's what happened. I really believe that, like
we are trained to enjoy superhero origin stories because we
get new ones constantly. Hugh Jackman being the through line

(53:58):
of Wolverine is ypeople like that version of Wolverine. We've
invested twenty five years of our lives in Hugh Jackman's Wolverine.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Yep, the last.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Twenty five years. How many super Men have we had?
A lot?

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Five?

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah, the answer is a lot. And so but every
time they've done one, We've seen Krypton and the Rocket
and Mom podcast, so we know that stuff. So skipping
over that was like, Oh, I accept that we skip
over that. Barry Allen has had one TV show for
nine seasons successfully. Not everyone watched the Flash season one,
so expecting everyone to buy into his origin is tough. Yeah,

(54:36):
And I think that's where the audience had a very
tough time coming into that movie. And again, there's stuff
in that movie that I love, there's stuff in that
movie that I don't understand the audience. I think the
general audience was not ready for a sequel to a
movie that we hadn't seen. And that's that's my theory
on the Flash movie. Again, apologies to our friends at

(54:57):
Warner Brothers, Like I just I have thoughts you.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Know before we leave Supergirl, Landon wanted to know thoughts
on Sophie Campbell's current run. It's great, Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
It's it's such a different tone from what Supergirl stories
have been told recently, like like Woman of Tomorrow versus
Sophie Campbell's Supergirl are very different tones. But I love
her art, like I think her art's phenomenal. I haven't
read this week's issue yet. I guess they introduced more
super pets and god, I love.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I've ended David Well yeah, I mean, honestly, before we
leave Supergirl a little wet'll shout out to Kurt Swan
and Jim Mooney who we're doing yeoman work during the
Silver Age with the Girl of Steel. And there's comment
right there in the circle I missed the Adie page. Yeah,
the old eighty page giants.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
I love her throwing darts into super Boy's chest like
that's yes.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
See, audio audience, this is why you got to watch
the show, because then you do get a little bonuses
like some of the visuals that I put up like this. No,
that's great man. Regarding the Flash, I one of your
episodes actually made a best of the Year list, which
is really great. So tell us about that episode.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, Todd Helbing and I wrote an episode called Inner
flash Time and it was in season four. It's like,
it's the one that always is like people are always like, oh,
it's the one with a nuclear bomb, and like, essentially
a nuclear bomb goes off, the flash goes into what
we called on the show flash time, which is when
he's moving up super speed and everything's frozen, right, And

(56:36):
so we did an entire episode where the pressure is
on for Barry to figure out how to stop a
nuclear bomb, and it's it's you know, it's one of
the things I'm proudest of on that show. That that episode.
And we did the first Ralph Didney episode and Thomas
Pound and I wrote episode four or four, which I

(57:00):
think it's called an Elongated Journey in the.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Night IMDb, and I think that's what's what it said.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
And then the Crisis episode is like, those are the
three episodes that I point to, is like, I'm infinitely
proud of this work because these were really hard episodes
to do, but we got really good hours of television
out of it. Flash Time was a challenge because how
do you keep the tension going, how do you write
it in such a way that it doesn't break the

(57:27):
show where from that point on, every villain he ever fights,
you're like, why isn't he moving at super speed in
the same way he did it in a flash Time?
And the answer was always, well, because flash time, it's
that it's most like the pressure is at its highest,
so he's moving in his fastest and then he brings
along Jesse Quick, and he brings along Jake Garrick work

(57:47):
with John Wesley's ship, and John is the greatest human being.
He was so kind to me. It was such a
dream to write him as Jay Garrick, and then to
later get to write his final scenes. Is Flash ninety
in Crisis was such an incredible experience for someone who

(58:09):
idolized that Flash TV show in nineteen ninety ninety one.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yeah, absolutely, my god.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yes, John Wesley Shiff went from being the Flash in
nineteen ninety ninety one to the Dad and the Neverending
Story too, and the never Ending Story is one of
my all time favorite movie.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
I didn't remember that, but I know his next TV
dad role of course.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
And then he was the Dad on Dawson's Creek and
so like every turn I was like, I love this man.
I love this man. I love this man.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
And then he was the Dad in Flash season one,
I'm like, oh my god. And then he's Jay.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Garrick and it's like, okay, now we're talking. And I
had to write some really incredible scenes with him as
Jay Garrick. And then thankfully we decided to do Crisis
on Infinite Earth's which, for my money and probably for
the Internet's money, is the biggest television crossover of all
time because we crossed over twenty one different DC properties

(59:00):
animated film television into five episodes and we got to
put a final note on John's Flash from the nineties,
and shooting that scene is one of the most emotional
days I've ever had on a set. Wow cool because again,
when I was nine years old, this man and this

(59:22):
as this character was my idol, Like I loved that
show so much and to have the opportunity to be
on set, I am so thankful that I got to
be a part of not only writing the episode, but
being on set and watching him. He performed it across
two different days and the first day and it was

(59:43):
with a few days weekend separating the two different days.
At the end of the first day. Sorry, I've gotten
way off from flash time.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
We oh, this is fantastical.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Continue at the end of the first day, his count,
so Grant's cow went backwards and and John's cow came forwards.
So he pulls the cow off forwards and he sits
down in the chair next to me, and I'm like,
how do you feel like you just shot like part
one of your your final scene is this character and
he goes numb. I just feel nothing. I don't know

(01:00:15):
how to feel right now. And I'm like okay, And
I said, well, here's the thing, Like we've shot you
out for the day, we've wrapped. Let's come back next
week and let's talk about it. And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm gonna have to really I'm gonna have to really
figure it out. And I think he went back to
New York and spent some time in New York and
came back on the Tuesday or whatever, and it was

(01:00:39):
his like that the part two of that was him
like sucking the like plot wise, he like sucks the
energy from Grant and then he gets on the thing
and then he like screams as he's running or whatever.
Oh my god, and how cool.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Was that treadmill Man absolutely well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Anti matter, Tannon, we got to build like all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Yeah, people who only experienced John ships Flash on DVD
and if you're catching Runser and even his portrayal in
Crisis and everything else. And as Jay Eric, you guys
don't understand. I was, you know, out of college when
in nineteen ninety when that Flash TV show aired and

(01:01:23):
it was coming off the heels of the Tim Burton
Batman movie, and it was like, and the costume looks
so great, and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Deny did the opening theme song, Danny Elfman, Shirley did
some amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Shirley Walker who also worked on the Batman animated series.
You know, I mean, yeah, it's it really was like
we were all excited and then sadly CBS just messed
with the show and they would preempt it for the NCAA,
and I believe the first Iraq War was happening when
the show was airing, so it would get preempted for
special news reports. And it was such a sh I mean,

(01:01:57):
we had hammil as the Trickster and I'm glad he
came back. Oh my god that but yeah, I mean
it was it was it's such a shame that the
thing barely made it through its first two you know,
it's only two seasons. Well now yet you know?

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
So yeah, So Danny Bilson, who co created the show
with Paul. Where I was going, yep, yep, yep, they
came in. Danny came into the flash right, Paul de
Mayo passed away sadly and oh a few years ago, wow, Danny.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
I had Danny and Paul on the show early on
in word Balloon, and ever.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Paul passed away in twenty eighteen. I want to say,
I mean, it's been a few minutes. It's been fere.
Danny came in and had lunch with all of us
and we were talking and he said, you know the
show in nineteen ninety one as CBS executive at the
after party or whatever, pulled me aside and said, hey,

(01:02:46):
I just want you to know, my boss is the
reason your show got canceled. And he canceled it because
if he brought the overall budget for the season in
under a certain number, it triggered a three million bonus,
three million dollar bonus for him. So like, you're losing
your show, so this one guy can have three million dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
So sorry, Hey, thanks a lot. Way to go.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Network TV Network TV in nineteen ninety one. Man like,
what what the heck?

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
What a what a shame?

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
So but you know, I I got I told John,
you know, I got to meet him a terrific on.
He's really good friends with Mitchwick, the owner of Terrific.
He said, yeah, man, I'm like, dude, that is so great.
And it's so great that the powers that be were
smart enough to not only make you Berry's dad, but
also then to bring in as Jay. I'm like, and
it's so I have a picture of me and m
and and we're both you know, doing the post, the

(01:03:35):
running post. And I was a fat ass at the moment.
I'm proud to say, have lots of fifty pounds in stuff.
All good for you. That's great, Thanks buddy. Another twenty
five and I'll be happy. I'll be in my fighting way.
I got a title fight coming up. I gotta be ready's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Been throwing twenty five more pounds.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
You'll get there, No, I'll get there. But yeah, he's
I can also sell your friends. He said, oh yeah,
all right, Well, and I was just gonna say, what
a great comeback, not only within the CW in the
Fly Show, but he makes those lifetime movies. And it's
so because, really, I know, he had a very personal
rocky time post Dawson and really had to kind of

(01:04:10):
get his life back together again. And I'm so glad
he did. And I told him that, and he's, like
you said, he's the most appreciative, generous soul, and it's
so great. And yeah, you just you like it when
there are positive actos and act threes in people's lives.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
I mean anymore, I think everyone's career has those rocky periods,
you know, I post pandemic, like my career has been
all over the place, like we've you know, the pandemic
was really a dividing line between me working steadily to
like not and you know, and if someone wants to
hire we write some comics. John's got my email true

(01:04:45):
John Wesley's ship. So we were shooting part two of
Flash nineties like Demise, He's had time to think about it.
We had a great director on an episode again, David mcworder.
Mc order is helping him, like coaching him through the running.
I mean, it's we have a stunt double for him
because like that cosmic treadmill. They could crank it up

(01:05:06):
to seventeen miles an hour. I mean, like like it was.
He's legit. He and or the stunt person are full tilt,
running as fast as they look like. And so we're
coaching him through his like thing. And in the script
it says he screams as he evaporates, and mc waters
like takes him to the one side and kind of

(01:05:26):
coaches him through. And then I come over. I'm like, okay,
what are we thinking? And John goes, I got it,
don't And so we put him. We use the stunt
guy first just to get him up to full speed,
and then we have John and then he we're on
him tight and we're pushing in as he does the
scream and he like screams and it's a close set.
It's loud, it's kind of echoey. He screams so loud

(01:05:49):
he maxes out all the all the volume.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
How that sounded absolutely man, I'm a radio guy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Yeah, And we we ramp the thing down and comes
off and it's like do we want to go again? Uh?
And McWhorter's like, I don't think we're gonna get better
than that. It's like, let's let's call this good. We
we wrapped him for Chrisis for your Earth. Huge applause.
Everyone freaks out. And then he comes off and he

(01:06:16):
pulls the cow.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Off and he sits down in the chair and I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Come and I sit down next to him. I'm like, so,
how do you feel? And he goes complete and I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Like, ah, nice, and a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Of time to think about it, and I really genuinely
think like this is you know, I I go out
saving the multiverses, saving my friends, and like, what an
amazing way to go out. And I said, yeah, that's
why we wrote this for you, to to do this
like this, like you came back in the else World's
crossover and now you get to complete your your story.
And he's stood up and he goes and he patting

(01:06:48):
on the shoulder like and he's like, Sterling, thank you
for everything. And I legit got tiary and he stood there.
He stood back. He goes, Captain, thanks for everything, and
he turns and walks away. And then the pandemic hit
like four months later, and then the episode aired, and
like he messaged me on Twitter and was like, thank
you again for everything. When I watched it and it

(01:07:11):
cuts to Tina, I got Tier, and I'm like, well,
that's that means the freaking world to me because you
were my flash when I was ten years old or
however old.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
I was like, you were the the guy, the hero.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
So for you to feel like you got to complete
your story and like you were like that, that was
always my hope and not always my goal, And like
what a joy to get to be with you and
help you through that emotionally as an actor, but also
like just to get to hang out with you and
the like I have a picture of me and him
in the costume and all the like. Just to be
able to like fulfill my childhood dream means so much

(01:07:51):
to me and like what a joy. Like I can't
say enough good stuff about shooting that episode, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
Okay, we're wrapping things up with part one, but we
will come back to more details about Sterling's time reading
for the CW shows that he did, and a whole
lot more, including a look at or a listen I
should say to a new movie that Sterling has made
that's playing the festivals. In fact, it will be at
a couple conventions this fall as well, but a whole

(01:08:22):
lot more in my conversation with Sterling Gates coming your
way Saturday. I hope you'll listen. I hope you're enjoying
what we've been putting out there so far on word Balloon,
and a whole lot more coming your way. Until next time,
Thanks for listening. Word Balloon is a copyright feature of
Shaky Productions. Copyright twenty twenty five.