Word Balloon / Bendis Discord Book Club: 100 Bullets Vol. 1

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, welcome back. It's time again for word Balloon the
Comic book Conversation show. John Senttris here. We did the
Word Balloon Book Club last night, Brian Bendis's discord the
Word Balloon League of Word Balloon Listeners. We all got
together and we had a nice discussion about one hundred
Bullets Volume one, the very first five issues. There's actually
two stories in there, and we discussed the work of

(00:22):
Brian Azarello, at Wardoriso, Dave Johnson, even the colorists, and
had a very cool conversation, a great writer's process discussion
that if you're an aspiring writer, I think you'll find interesting,
but also it's just entertaining as well. So that's the
basis for today's wonderful word Balloon. And also we've already

(00:42):
said that next month the book is going to be
Kelly Thompson's first arc of Birds of Prey, so that
will be a lot of fun. But you can join
in on the discussion if you are a word Balloon
subscriber for at least three dollars a month at Patreon
Patreon dot com slash word Balloon. Yes, he'll still hear
the commercial coming up later, but yeah, I just wanted

(01:05):
to let you know that you could be part of
this too, and on the recorded zoom on camera and
giving your two cents if you want to, or just
being part of the discussion as a listener. That's what's
happening today. The bendis League of Word Balloon Listeners book
Club talking about one hundred bullets on today's word balloon.
Word Balloon is brought to you by Alex Rossart dot com,

(01:28):
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(02:14):
featuring transcriptions of some of my best conversations. Plus you'll
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(02:38):
com slash word Balloon.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Welcome to Jings World Word Balloon Book Club. This is
our fiftieth version of it, and we are happy to
say that after much consideration, everyone had voted. One of
the top voting books was one hundred Bullets from the
get go, and I kind of like spaced it out

(03:02):
because we didn't want to, like, you know, so many
we're doing so many crime books that so many people
are interested in discussing, we kind of wanted to space
them out a little bit. But this one I'm very
interested in talking about with everybody. It's it's one I
like a lot of you I grew up with. I
did want to preface. It's weird because I'm established in

(03:24):
the industry, so as John, we've been We've been in
this industry as long as hundred Bullets has been around,
so that I kind of want to give context because
there's some people in comics that think we all live
in a house together like a reality show, and we don't.
Brian is someone I know, but not technically like none

(03:45):
of the one I've ever hung out with. So I
don't want to say not a friend, because it's someone
I would do a favor for in a heartbeat. We
grew up together. We grew up in Cleveland in the
same area, and Me, Brian Azerella, and Brian Cavon all
grew up in Cleveland exact same time. All Ball, all
Brian all made prime comics. So it's very, very And

(04:06):
that's about where it ends with with the with the
connection other than things like this, like I'm I'm posting
you can everyone see this wizard article from twenty years ago.
So people often to this day lump all of us
into a group when they're talking, and it always kind
of confuses some of us. Sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah,

(04:28):
because this was this was pre internet, this was how
you met us, so this would be like the first
introduction of us. So you all think we live in
a house putting flashlights under our chin.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
In the same cell.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah. No, this was a photo shoot at San Diego
Comic Con. I think you were there, John, No, I.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Wasn't there, But I remember this article distinctly, and it's
really before all I knew all of you guys, about before,
four or five years before I knew you guys, honestly.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Okay, all right, and it's all again, as John knows
very well, all of this is a mush that took
place about eleven years ago in my head. So and
so these articles where I was, me and Azarella kind
of came on the scene exactly at the same time.
In this wash of uh crime comic authors. We were

(05:15):
labeled very hard as that and then and then we
both started writing Spider Man and Superman around exact same time.
So there's a curve of career and passion and influence
that that pervades both of us. But that's kind of
where it ends. But I will say that Brian, though

(05:36):
we're and also it's weird because Greg is one of
my closest friends and Ed is a friend who literally
was staying here this summer, so that it's weird that
we aren't. We aren't all friends that live in the house,
except some of us are, and so it makes it
confusing for readers to know who's who and what's what.
And I will say that with Brian, it it's funny

(06:00):
when everyone's agreed to do this. I was a little
like hmm am I in a position to even have
a conversation about hundred bullets because it was perceived as
and not ever in my heart, in competition with Powers
and Sin City and Criminal and though we never ever
saw that, it was often referenced that way in articles
and sometimes even on this podcast. So so I was hesitant,

(06:24):
and I reached out to Brian. And when I reached
out to Bryan, I haven't talked to him in a while.
And I looked up when you you know, when you
look up in your emails to see, you know, oh,
when's the last time we even talked? Like what was
what was our last interaction? And our last interaction was
about five years ago, Brian emailing me to be the menschiest,
coolest thing a creator could do. Hey, I just got

(06:48):
offered to work with Alex Malieve. But I would never
do that if it would bother anything that's going on
in your life. I know sometimes editors jump the gun
and offer things before they know what the deal is.
I don't want to do that to you. That is
I'm just going to start it off. If for up
and coming creators, completely unnecessary. I don't know Alex Believe.

(07:09):
We are not any contract together, but he was very
cool a fellow writer going, you know what, I would
appreciate if the roles were reversed. If if all of
a sudden I was working with Ed Edward Orriizzo on
Spider Man, I think I would.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
I would.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
I would want to reach out to Azarello make sure
that you know there was some sort of not a blessing,
but everyone everyone's cool with this and and literally the
last time he emailed me was to be cool, and
it made me smile and made me want to even
have this conversation even more so. I reached out to
Brian and I think everyone knows what the book is about,

(07:45):
the high concept premise of the book, so I don't
know if we have to introduce it. You get a
guy comes up to you with a suitcase, so the
hundred bullets in it.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Go nuts and traceable bullets, and you've got somebody, You've
got somebody in your past that has done you wrong.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
You know.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
There was and I have never asked Brian this, but
there was an old television show. Of course I know
about an old television show, but it was called it
was called The Millionaire, and it had It was an
anthology show, much like one hundred Books, but much tamer
and Michael Anthony would show up and he represented this
millionaire John Barrettsford Tipton, and he would have people a
check for one million dollars to do what they want,

(08:21):
and the rest of half hour was all right, what
do they do with the money? What problem do they
have or whatever? And I always wondered if, because Brian
likely grew up with the reruns of this show like
I did, he's a little bit older, but yeah, I
always wondered if this was like a dark version of
The Millionaire, but instead of a million, one hundred traceable
bolts and an untraceable gun go nuts.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
There was also a show Robert Altman was involved in
called Gun And there was a network television show on ABC,
and you just followed the gun. Yes, the character the
gun was the mcguffin and also the lead character of
the story. And I thought of that as a gun
is the way into the story. It's a very interesting

(09:04):
even even for revenge stories. And you know, even John Wick,
the gun isn't the way into the story, right, It's
something that's happened and now let's get our guns right.
So thinking about stories where the gun was the way
in or the McGuff and itself, you know his.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Concern about malief. So was that like around Sam and
Twitch or was that Daredevil time?

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Oh no, no, this was the end of my DC run.
You were wrapping up, checkmate. They went to do there's
only five years ago they went to do. They did
a joker together for Black Label. It's beautiful book. I
highly recommend it. And I always learn and just so,
even when Alex is drawing Sam and Twitch without me,

(09:52):
you learn so much about your fellow collaborators and your
partners by watching them with other people. Sure, like, what
is like when I'm not being me?

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right? Well?

Speaker 2 (10:03):
What what? What?

Speaker 1 (10:04):
What?

Speaker 2 (10:04):
What am I missing out on by by being my
my normal self? And so both of these things looking
at Alex with Todd helped me on Daredevil and looking
at Alex and Brian and Brian being more more my
peer in storytelling and how I would approach an artist

(10:27):
in the way they work. Absolutely informed choices I made
in Masterpiece, which was Alex's next book right after that.
So so that that is I keep saying that's that's
it for the connections, but that's really it for the
connection well.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
But I was also going to add that if people
haven't read Johnny Double from DC Risso and Azarella, that
was their rehearsal before doing Hundred Bullets.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
I love the little mini series that happened before the
big whopper, that our comics are filled with them, particularly
the last thirty years or so.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
It's the best. More in Gibbons doing that Superman annual
before they did Watchmen, and if you really look at both, uh,
the way they past the stories and stuff. The dressersle
again was that man who had everything Mongol story with
the with the Black Orchid. And by the way, someone
in the chat had asked if Malieve and Azarello had

(11:19):
done a black label suicide squad story. I don't remember that.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
It was Juic Scott's squad versus a Joker. I keep
calling it the Joker because that's what I was interested
in seeing Alex and draw. But it's one hundred percent
of Suicide Squad book, so I got mislabeling it as
percent on me. Wasn't it Suicide Squad versus the Joker
or a joker or something like that? The title? Anyway?
All right, but we're not here to talk about that.

(11:45):
We're here to talk about one hundred Bullets and uh
I will I will preface this by saying, Holy, the
best thing about revisiting this book is just revisiting my
deep love for a Wato Rizzo. My god. I just
just as someone who was trying to draw something like

(12:08):
this around the same time and having basically about put
my pens down when this book popped, it did feel.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Like, well, what's the point?

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's there. There it is. That's what I
was trying to do. But what could I do it?

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Had you known his work prior to one hundred Bullets?
I hadn't.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
I knew a couple. When someone's drawing like that and
you're trying to draw like that, you can't help but
gravitate towards people who are accomplishing it. And seemingly accomplishing
it with ease. And Alex Malie was actually one of
these people who was drawing the crow at the time,
and they were just like coming up. And I remember
I was at Melting Meltdown in La and one of

(12:52):
the and and one of the people behind the counter,
who may be a famous comedian now I don't know,
uh uh uh slipped me one of his Spanish graphic
novels in Spanish and was like, and we didn't know
who we were other than Holy Lord, look at this right,
Frank Miller and Will Eisner had a baby and it's beautiful, right,

(13:14):
And that's and that's what was coming out of it.
So I did. I reached out to Brian and just
to get some context for a couple of things I
had to question. Of my my biggest one was who
the hell is Grant gor Leash like like the colorists
on the first the book we read right, and I'm like,

(13:37):
I'm like, God, the coloring is outstanding, and the simplicity
of the variants of of of the palette is not
easy to do. It's very hard to do to create,
you know, planes of space on a on a comic panel.
Sometimes three four deep using only oranges, and it reads

(14:01):
clearly and you're not lost, and nothing gets flattened and
everything pops and everything was clear. It's very hard to do,
and only a handful of colorists are really, really good
at it. It looks like Grant's one of them. So
I'm like, I'm like, Imilily went, who what's he working at?

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Now?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Right?

Speaker 4 (14:17):
And lo and behold nothing like the only time the
only Google came up with Grant was his work one
hundred bullets and some video game stuff and then nothing.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
And then I went, oh, I bet this is a pseudonym.
I bet this is Dave Stewart because it looks like
my favorite kind of Dave Stewart stuff. And I mean
that high compliment, like that's me saying you look like
you're Roger Deakins, like you are. You are a great stylist,
and I can't live without you. And so I emailed

(14:53):
Brian and I said, Hey, what's what happened? Who is Grant? Who?
Who is Grant? Gets clear? This is someone we know.
And also there are people in comics who change their
names for various reasons.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, famously Adam Adam Austin back in the sixties was
actually shame on me. I'm looking at my wall right now.
Oh my god, I'm looking at his blade. Gene Colon
was Adam Austin.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
No shit, And I actually worked for someone who was
working under a pseudonym, and I was when I was
in high school. Mike Gustovich worked under a pseudonym for
a while because like there was a time that he
felt like he wasn't getting work, but his work had
never been better, right, And then he submitted his work
on another name and ended up getting a lot of work.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Justice Machine Mike Gustovich for Yeah, was playing at home.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, it's a career move. Or sometimes you're like I
don't want to be on the internet. Yeah. By the way, Wesley,
I wish and and and David someone I've worked with closely.
So when I saw these choices, it made me think
of Dave, particularly not Matt Hollinsworth or or or Laura Martin.

(16:11):
It looks like choices Dave would make today, right. And
then I because I saw that like the second year,
other colorists come in, particularly Patricia Malville, and boy, I
just think the work looks much better under Grant's pen
to my eye, right, and only to find out that

(16:33):
Edwardo thought the opposite. Edroardo liked Patricia's work on him
way more than Grant. They were not a teammate in Heaven,
even though from my eye it looks like they're in
perfect harmony. So it's it was surprising to me to
hear that it didn't. They just it didn't last because
it didn't work out, which happens, you know, But boy,

(16:53):
I would love to hear one day from Errato what
what was missing to him?

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, the articles.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
I think it's relevatory to me. Literally, it's like finding
out that Coen Brothers didn't like Roger Deakins. You're like, really,
you know.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I get it. You know. I will say also that
this group, this book and again that blown smoke up
Brian's ass, But it was really this and powers and
what the guys were doing on And it's funny that
Brian is for the video or the audio audience. Brian
was showing the Wizard magazine again that guys, but it

(17:31):
was but it really was. This was one of those
cornerstone books and I'm like, oh, look how cool comics
are after having been away for most of the nineties,
and this was around, you know, ninety eight ninety nine
when I was finding these guys with their stuff. Brubaker
was doing Batman, Rucca was doing Detective. You know. Brian,
like I said, was doing really both synonymously Ultimate Spider

(17:54):
Man and Powers and everything. So yeah, it was it
was cool. Yeah, does anyone know and again I'll throw
to the audio audience although they can't respond if they
know what an issue of Wizard it was, but I
do remember buying it.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
And yeah, it was really there's a Wizard. The guys
from Wizard have a thing where they post old stuff.
That's why I have it because just a few months
ago they posted that online. I'm not keeping pictures of
myself from Wizard from thirty years ago. Just happened to
show up on my Blue Sky feed. So it was
you can look at it. I reposted at the time.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
But again, this group image is a print that Eduardo
was giving out or you could buy from him, and
I know when I finally met him face to face,
I got I got it from him and everything. This
one right here, the group shot of all the of
all the characters. Yeah, these are all the you know,
it's so great. Everybody, Again for the audio audience. It
really is all the characters that show up one hundred

(18:48):
books or a lot of the main ones, and you know,
it's yeah, it's iconic and and really as really, you
got to hand it him for finding these artists that
are at least connecting with these artist seen it discovered
where he was already somebody. But but really, Riso and
then later Victor Santos were my two. Holy shit, I've
never seen these people before. I am absolutely in love

(19:10):
with this. And it's funny. I've never, other than brief
convention talks with Eduardo, never had him on word Balloon,
did have Victor Santos on a couple.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
I don't think I've ever been in the same room
with Eruado. Even maybe I have, I like, but you know,
I'm such a huge fan and I even look to see,
like with Mike Toy if we had ever if I
ever was blessed with a variant cover or anything like that,
and the only one, the only one I had was
the museum here is is this? So yeah, I have

(19:46):
that too.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
I have the print of this the Action Comics variant
that he did, which is hilarious.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
It was as close as I ever came, but I
will say, and it's really funny when I googled, I
just googled like Bendis and Rizzo to see if there
was any in variants that come up and or if
we did a run of Avengers together that completely based
on and And what I did find is back in
my Tumblr days, I was obsessing over Eduardo and I

(20:13):
was pulling some Primo Edward Wizzo fan art. I'm gonna
go through a couple of them here, because god, it
just if if you didn't love him before, you're you're
you're gonna you're gonna love him now. This is incredible stuff.
Hold on a second, go I got some real good Easier.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Oh yeah, old man, and really the three of them,
uh Riso, uh At Sorello and Dave Johnson. I've seen
them together at a few shows. So when when Flashpoint
was going on, they did that wonderful Joker Joker mini
series where Martha is the Joker instead of h Thomas

(20:52):
and the Crime Alley, the Crime Alley Trauma turns Martha
into the Joker. It's uh yeah, it's it's great, and
you know, yeah, resol and it's a shame that I
don't blame for not wanting to do full books of superheroes.
But these kind of prints that Brian is showing right
now again for the audio audience, Great Captain, America's Shock,
Great Wonder Woman shot, the.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Recreation Spider Man. Yeah please boom, there you go?

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Nice?

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, like that's these these are ones. And also
here's a great one. This was my favorite. And I
remember posting this like a million times in the pandemic.
This is a punisher in Travis Pickle cleaning the streets
in New York.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a home run. Did Riso? Was he
the artist on Tangled Web Greg's infamous severance package story.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, I don't know either. I will do that while
we're talking everybody.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Right, and and and this one I like too because
the Miller influence is enormous. Uh and and well put
and I and I. There's a way to be influenced
to someone where you're you're not only not adding anything
to it, you're actually subtracting from it. A lot of heavy,
heavily influenced artists usually look like a pale reflection or

(22:09):
a warped version reflection of their hero, but there is
something magical. When you're adding to the language, you're adding
yourself to it in a way that you can see.
This is a step in the right direction. So I
thought images like this reflect and also all the fan
art he's doing here, Like all of these images kind

(22:31):
of are a puzzle piece into the puzzle of a
Roudo not only as a stylist, but as the storyteller
and the way he's telling his story. And like you
can see the Tarantino influences of Scorsese influences that like
everywhere we grew up, Like there there it is in
his art, right, and I don't know the way these
are drawn. There's just a passion there, right, you don't

(22:53):
like the way he draws genes. That's there's just a
passion there that that means a lot. And I don't
know it just it just blows, just blows me away.
But here here is him with Grant and again this
this this on this bottom panel, there's like four or
five different oranges and tans going on at the same time.
This is very hard to pull off well, and when

(23:17):
you see it done well, it is quite something. Here's
another example of it, just you know, just incredible marriage
of this line art and the color choices.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
It's always interesting too, the panels where he chooses to
give you a background and ones that he doesn't doesn't
And then even in that noir film kind of uh example,
you know, shadows of prison bars and things like that,
very very mood evocative. And I was right, and everybody
in the chat, like Wesley and Zach did confirm that

(23:51):
Risso was the artist on Greg Rucca's Tangled Web number four,
which was called Severance Package. I want to say, Paton
Oswald and Jordan Blum when they just did their recent
like Marvel's Greatest Hits for Abrams included Severance Package. And
it is truly, especially as a one shot, one of
the greatest Kingpin stories ever.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
That's awesome. Yeah. So so the these these and and
what you're talking about, John, is the use of positive
and negative space, the use of light and shadow, all
being very very controlled, giving you know, a great like

(24:31):
let's look at the bottom left panel here, we're just
literally looking at a fork being stuck into a pie.
I assume as the foreground image, it's all silhouette. You
know exactly what it is. It's not a perfectly rendered fork.
That thought what fortunally look like right, but you get
what it is right, and everything about it just works right.

(24:52):
I do feel every once in a while I do
get that that you know. Uh, Mike mcnola said, went
in doubt, black it out, you know, And there I'm
a big believe that as well. That's something you hear
you carry with you, like, because what it says is
this thing you're stressing over or over rendering or rendering
in a way that you're like sin of going, well,
what if I don't render it? What if I just

(25:13):
black it all in? Is it more effective or less effective?

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Right?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
And some of our great artists are really exceptional of that.
Mike Owming is exceptional of that. David Mack is exceptional
of that. Whereas like and also using the positive and
negative space to literally control the reader's eye, like there's
like you can't fully control their eye because everyone's you know,
you know, your your own self control. But but when

(25:39):
you turn a page and you go to the pie,
then you go to the wine shot. Now you know
where everybody is, and now we're getting a sense of
how everyone's interacting with each other. And then by the
fourth panel, everyone's in silhouette. But she's clearly upset, right,
Like there's there's there's acting going on there that no
rendering would make it more effective or less effective. Right,
that's probably the most effective way to get across. And

(26:01):
also when you're doing a two shot versus a one
shot on over the shoulder versus a clean on shot.
And then a perfect example is the last panel is
from the point of view of the woman, right, she's
looking right into the eyes of what she is perceiving
to be as someone who's untrustworthy, right, And I always
look at a panel like that when I see when
it's it's like like I went back and forth on this,

(26:26):
like should this character be more stoic, because right here
he looks sinister as fuck, right, Like, there's no way
to look at that last panel and not go, yeah,
that's the bad guy. He literally is doing everything but
twirling a mustache because of the lighting and the panel.
But really, this is the point of view of that character.
That's what she sees, right, we might perceive it differently.

(26:49):
So I went back and forth on it because it's like,
it's not a choice that matches other choices, but this
character we're learning about her, not him, right, so anyway,
so that's interesting. So these these choices, the rendering, just
the quality of line art, the cartooning, like because sometimes

(27:10):
when someone's doing very silhouetted work or breaking up the
positive and negative space, they're covering up the facts that
they're not good at something the a la me in
all of the nineties. But in this instance it is
choices are being made to best shoot the story right.
And every once in a while there'll be a page
where let me see maybe right here, or there's a

(27:33):
lot of silhouette here, but there's also like fully rendered
faces that are perfectly cartooned.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
He's not covering up the fact that he can't draw right,
He's choosing to draw this way right, the details are
there or the hint of a detail, which for me,
that's a magic trick onto itself. I've seen a million
artists do it, where just a hint and you feel
like like in the wide panel where we're looking at

(27:59):
the you know, the overtrain, there's barely any detail, but
you feel like you're seeing all the detail, like it's
all rendered, like you know what's there, Like I don't
have to I don't have to drive you bolts of
the of the train. I don't have to drive both
of the stalks of the of the of the watch
McCall it. So anyway, I I just everything that's happening
here and the way the lights being used to project

(28:22):
emotion and mood. It just it's just amazing and I
love it. So I'll stop talking now. Other than I
was just again flattened by this. I like, I'm envious
of this, of this drawing style. I wish I could
do it. And when I see it done and see
it done so well, like this, look look at that

(28:43):
second panel, right, So you've got the hook, the chain,
the hook in the fore in the in the foreground.
So he went and got reference. That's an observed thing.
That's not that's not in your head, right that you know,
like if you say draw a garage that you would
never think of that. That's someone who went to a

(29:05):
garage said ooh, I want to draw that. That's good
production design, right and and and it's real and weirdly
it's the thing that draws your eye because it's the
blackest thing on the page too, Like your eye goes
right to that and you're like, oh, that's interesting. It
creates like a mood like like you know what I mean,

(29:27):
like like like I don't know, like you can hear
the chain everything, everything feels more dangerous because that chains
hanging there right with a hook. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it
could be for anything, right.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, well I have chop shop would be my assumption,
you know, yeah, yes, and uh yeah it's and also
the dialogue and it's funny when you showed the uh
the panel of the elevated train and everything, it reminded me.
Azarella was my first word balloon interview. Initially I was
going to do, yeah, my my, I.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Was gonna episode is Brian Azarella.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
Well, I'm explained it was among my first flour episodes
in Chicago. Well, that was part of it as well.
But my initial thought was because of one hundred Bullets
and Moonstone Books was doing a lot of crime comics
at the time as well, and it just occurred to
me that, oh, you know, crime comics are really happening
right now in Chicago, and this is right around the

(30:19):
time of Sin City as well. And what I wanted
to do was I had a videographer friend, let's do
a video documentary about crime comics and also throwing in
the fact that Dick Tracy started at the Chicago Tribune.
So it was Azarello, Max, Allan Collins, the guy who
was the publisher of Moonstone Books, and my dear friend

(30:41):
Doug Klauba, and they were my first four people. But
this was the first interview that we did. We did
in December of four It was even before I really
started doing the audio because my video kind of crapped
out on me. So I still had his raw interviews
and I wanted to do something with the audio. And
at the same time, Comic Book Resources joanah Wiland was

(31:02):
posting interviews that he had done with Rucca and a
couple others on the CBR website and I'm like, oh,
that's what I can do. I'll start a word you know,
a website. So I and I'm like, word balloon. My
father would have killed me because he's like, if you're
going to start a business, start at the beginning of
the alphabet, because usually people list things alphabetically, so he

(31:24):
would have said, dumbass, you know what are you doing?
But but otherwise, no, it was great, and oh I'm
now I'm in an Eduardo Resso shadow.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
But the we should all be doing this, we should
all turn off our key lights.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
But yeah, so so Brian was first. But again seeing
the elevated trains, I'm like, where do you get this
dialogue from? Because really Brian clearly was listening to Dialogue
of the Street. And he's like, get on any bus,
get on any CTA bus Chicago Transfer Authority, and he goes,
you will hear exactly what you're looking for if you
want people of the street and what they what they

(31:58):
sound like and stuff. He goes, it's happening around us
every day.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
So yeah, I used to My trick still is that
I will I'll put on headphones so it looks like
I'm not listening to you, Like I'm not used dropping
on your private conversation and I'm completely dropping on your
When people look, they look at you. This show always
got headphones and they start fighting with each other. Oh, no,
one's listening, and that's where that's where you get the gold. Yeah.

(32:24):
But so I the other thing was like, yeah, it
was it was interesting that so many creators gravitated towards
crime fiction at the same time, right. I know there
were some people thought because Frank Miller did Sin City
that we were all just trying to hook onto that,
and some people were, but a lot of us had

(32:45):
started this journey before Sin City had launched. Like I
had already had two graphic novels out before Sin City
had come out. No one had seen them, but I
was already on the on the trail. When Frank Miller
brought Sin City out, it did legitimize a lot of
our Two people at Straight Bullets would be included in
that we never mentioned yet, but it was. We were
often mentioned in the same breath with Jings and Stray

(33:10):
Bullets and what Brian was doing with Johnny Double was
mentioned and Sin City, and I remember thinking, like us,
you know, Frank's one of the reasons I'm in comics, right,
It seemed like, well, like I don't think I deserve
to keep that company. But at the same time, you're like, well,
at least we're being compared to like good stuff, and

(33:30):
not everything in the nineties was good stuff. There was
a lot of like bad girl books and blood covered
swords and you know, metal bikinis and like God bless me,
you know, and some of them were extremely well drawn,
but like, like if those were the lanes, I'm thrilled
to be included in this lane with all these books
that are doing way better than me financially. Right, So

(33:52):
all the way through Torso there was like this. We
were like always brought together in a group, like when
we were we were mentioned together, but we weren't together
like we were all we were all coming at this
from a very specific, unique place, right, and even the
stuff that that that was inspiring Sin City, Like we

(34:16):
were inspired by the stuff that was inspiring Sin City
more than we were inspired by Sin City itself, if
that makes sense. So I think what you're seeing a
lot of particular hundred bullets is almost a response to
being in that conversation where you're like, oh, I'm in
this group, Well, then I should really focus on what's
unique about me, right, I don't want to I don't

(34:37):
want to be you know, the shitty sin City or
city City as we you know, you want to be.
You want like what it did. Kind of like in
in the moment and in retrospect, let us really focus on, well,
what's really special about powers, Like what's really special about
one hundred bullets? Like, let's zero in on what we do.
Because Frank has already kind of like planted his flag

(35:00):
and and honestly, at the time, so did David Lapham.
The Straight Bullets was an enormous hit and something a
lot of us were living in the shadow of happily.
But at the same time, you go, okay, well that's
if they're doing that, like they're doing one shot stories
that all team up together while we're gonna I'm gonna
go epic like I'll you know. So there's a lot

(35:21):
of some kinds conscious or subconscious response to what's happening
around us, all for the better of the reader, you know.
And and by the way, there were quite a few
people who were just doing Sin City knockoffs because we're like, oh,
is that what the kids want? They want to cheap
black and white, barely rendered, and you know, and it
was it was kind of heartbreaking to see some of
those books come out by some well established creators and like, oh, guys,

(35:45):
don't don't chase what you think they wanted, because it's
what Frank wants to do. Another good Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, excuse me. I was gonna say, another good, another
good one. And you wouldn't think of him necessarily doing
this kind of book. But I always gave it up
to jug Winnick for Caper and his Jewish mod book
that he did. Oh yeah, no that same time.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Yeah, Judge, Judge, I literally have maybe even said publicly
I'm going to do a Jewish crime epic and then
he did. Caper went no, I don't have to do
it now. Okay, it's been written. Okay, it's only happened
a couple of times. So that was one of one. Oh,
I was in the middle of researching this exact book anyway.
And also Neil Clyde just put out one recently that

(36:28):
was very similar called Nice Jewish Boys. Oh yeah, yeah
that that that it does a very good job of
describing that unique part of organized crime. So all right,
So I even though I promised myself I would only
go for ten minutes, I think I just went for
half an hour and that that I'm I'm sorry about.
I really meant to only do ten minutes. But I

(36:48):
was very interested in the Grant Gorlish thing. I also
I talked to Brian, Yeah, thank you course. Coacher Mafia
from Mad Cave is another very good one. I've read
that book. Brian also did us the favor. I'm going
to try to do it right now to see if
I can do it. Oh, yeah, I can do it
right now. Hold on a second. Brian did us the

(37:11):
favor of gifting us something I asked originally because I know,
just from the Jings World group, everyone's kind of obsessed
with story documents and the pitch documents, and I'm like, oh,
even I would like to see the pitch document for
a hundred bullets. Sadly because we are old, those are

(37:32):
all on zip drives and floppy discs and are not
to be excavated at the moment. But I know. But
Brian did do us the favor of I let me
see if I can put it right in the chat?
Can I put in the chat? I can put in
the chat.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
You're all getting well also, Yeah, and especially if you've
got any sort of PDF or whatever we want to do. Everybody, Yeah,
give it. That's one hundred.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Bullets, issue seventy, which we did not read for this
book club. But those of you who want to say
I would like to see what a Brian Azarella script
for one hundred Bullets looks like, you now have one.
I will also post it on the discord. The Jents
will discord, and John will post it on this Patreon
as well. Brian said, this is the earliest script I

(38:16):
have that can be shared with modern technology. So so
this is what we have. Interestingly enough, it does take
place in Cleveland, where both me and Brian grew up,
and so he said, it's Cleveland. You'll recognize it and
enjoy and so so if you guys want to, I

(38:38):
will say, for those of you are here for education
purposes and are on a creative journey, may I recommend
that you, without looking at the issue, or if you
haven't looked at it in a while and it's not
fresh in your mind, do layouts of this issue. Don't
look at it, don't look at what is did say

(39:03):
what would I do if I was the artist of
this thing? Like how would I make this? And you
don't have to draw the whole thing? But even as
a writer I have this not going on on the
discord right now, I have a couple of assignments where
the writer should take this script and draw some layouts
of it, just to see what your relationship is to

(39:26):
the real estate of the page and what choices you
would make to clearly tell your story right, clarity being
your number one goal. How would you arrange these words
and these images in a way that tells the story
the way you would want it to be told.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Some of you will have a hard time pushing past
the Rizzo influence in your head. It's almost impossible. But
if you can see what you can do to really
like scrape your brain and try to be as freshly
faced about how you would attack the page using the
tools that you like, right, how would you approach it?
Not because you're dying to be an artist, but this

(40:03):
will help your writing, Like this will help you kind
of like build your relationship with how you communicate with
your artists and how you communicate with yourself about how
much the page can handle in a comfortable and exciting
way right now. It's easy to do from script. But

(40:24):
there's been a lot of talk lately, and I've mentioned
it a few times, but I've seen a lot of
talk lately on social media about collaborators that go into
their partner's world in film. So many good directors are
also actors or take acting classes or improv classes right

(40:44):
because they want to speak the language of the people
they're speaking to, or understand how they're thinking about the
story that's different than the way I'm thinking about it,
which may be on a more technical level or on
more in a different emotional space than being seen. It's
the face of the story, right. So this goes back decades.
Scorsese started taking acting lessons so he could talk to

(41:07):
de Niro. Then he became a great actor. Sidney Pollack
was the same way, you know, and some of them
were like, Oh, I'm not an actor, I'm a director.
Like sometimes you walk into a creative space because you
think you're something, and then the space reveals No, what
you like directing, No, you like writing, you like hair
and makeup? Right, And the same thing happens in comics

(41:28):
all the time. I am a version of that where
I thought I was going to be an artist and
even though I love to draw, the world will forever
know me as a writer, right, And and that's that's yeah,
that's what the world showed me. That's where that's where
my magic tricks are.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Right.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
So I as an example, and I have done all
of these things, and I do them all the time.
When I see something, you want to pull it apart,
look under the hood, see what it's made of. How
many words is this on this page? How many panels
did it take right? Sometimes it's an illusion, Like there
are books that I remember being much bigger than they are.

(42:07):
Then you revisit them and you go like, like X
Men versus teen Titans in my head, that books three
hundred pages long and it's all double page spreads, And
then you read it's forty one pages and it's tight
as hell and there's only a couple of like full
page spreads. Right. It's just drawn enormously right. And so

(42:29):
it's a great idea when you're working with someone or
you're working on something that reminds you of something else
and you want it to feel that way, but you
don't want to rip it off. Just like look under
its hood and become part of that creative experience, even
if you're established, even if you've written and drawn things
that people have seen. All my friends do this famously,

(42:50):
and on this podcast. Matt Fraction is a great reverse
engineer of other people's work. And I was there when
he was reversed engineering every first issue of the New
fifty two and making flow charts and graphs about what
happened and when it happened and how it happened and
who it happened to, just to see if there was

(43:11):
a you know thing, and don't tell me that the
response the Batman ever won isn't fully or a part
of that of that journey he took for us. Right,
So there are a lot of our heroes that do
this all the time and benefited a great deal from it.
It asked your toolbox, so not to overexplain why you
should maybe draw it yourself, but I think it's great.

(43:33):
And also another exercise is take out all the dialogue
and you can do this one of my scripts. I'm
not saying that to do this to Brian or anybody,
but if you get your hands on a script, take
out all the dialogue, just delete it, sit on it
for a couple of days, you forget the dialogue that
you ever looked at, and then rewrite the dialogue in

(43:53):
your voice. Right, someone the pretend an editor came to
you and said, hey, we have this plot, we have
no dialoge log The writer skipped out. You want to
gig by the way that happens. And I've been hired
to do it, right, so that but also with an
even when I was hired to do but I go,
what an outstanding exercise this is? Man I'm learning a

(44:14):
lot about myself, right, very similar to when Kelly Sue
was hired to translate all the manga that she did
early in her career, where she did thousands of pages
of manga which she had to translate translated English into
speakable or readable English, and how it affected every choice
he's made a as a writer ever since. So these

(44:35):
are just examples of successful reasons why you should tackle
exercises like this, even if they did don't feel natural
to you in the in the beginning, all right.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Jailely Jaylee did that, well, I should say, did the art.
And I forget who rewrote one of his Marvel Captain
America issues where yeah, Jailey, the artist was the artist,
and I don't know, but someone had done a different
past than the original writer on a specific issue of
Captain America this is fifteen years and posted it or Marvel,

(45:07):
No Marvel, Marvel published it.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Yeah, that's a little different.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
And I understand that. But also, well, in a more
direct example of what you're talking about, I know that
Max Collins took a Japanese Batman story and wrote it, uh,
you know, in American English and everything.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
So all right, well, well, Mike Mike, I don't have
to do this to you, but I as soon as
John told me you were coming, I was like, oh great,
I would love to get a working artist's perspective on
this book and what you've seen here and what your
feelings are on it.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
For the audio audience, that's Mike Choi. Everybody you'll know
him from such works as The X Men and other
fantastic runs that he had in his comic book career,
but he also does other work as well.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Please, Mike, do you do you feel up to or
want to dive into this part of the conversation. I
don't mean to put you on the spot.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Uh, sure, honestly, like I wanted to participate just as
a fan of one hundred Bullets. I'm wearing my one
hundred Bullets rat Party T shirt from the Meltdown party.
And Brian, you've actually I visited a signing that you
were doing in Austin, and I remember that that's the

(46:19):
last time we.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Met Dragon's Layer.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
I know it was outdoors, but it might have been
south by Southwest. Yeah, there is that's what it was. Yeah,
that was fine, But trying to remember, like people that
you meet at like signings, is like almost impossible.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
And that one's different because that one had a parking
lot full of batmobiles, right and a wall of voodoo
donut shaped like the Superman logo. So I don't remember
anything but that.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
So, so you met my son. He's eight now, but
you met him when he was like two. His name
is Wiley because his mom was reading one hundred bullets
and he's named after Wiley times.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Wow, And uh.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
I wanted to really nerd out here and show you
this commission that Edward did.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
It's a I can't I'm trying.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Yeah, it's it's hard to see, but commission if you
want to post it on whatever. But the thing is, yeah, absolutely,
I'll send it to you. But it's all seven of
the original minute men and uh he he did it
before issue fifty had come out, so on it is

(47:34):
a Victor and Remy and they hadn't been in the
book yet, so this was like an early commission that.
Uh so, I've been a fan forever is basically what
I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
I I did not know that, which which makes this
even cooler. That's that's an amazing deep dive fan love
of this book.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
That Yeah, when when he said when when when I
saw John's email about doing a hundred bullets book club thing,
I was like, I'm there. I want to be so
uh yeah, obviously, like he's such a I discovered his
work when I was just starting out in comics, so
I was reading the book in real time and I

(48:14):
just remember that, Like, I don't feel like I draw
anything like him, but the fact that you know everything
I would have it.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
That's why I was so excited to hear that.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
That's yeah, I mean, but the thing is, like everything
you talk about with the storytelling in just like the
macro and the micros, you know, just the way that
you render faces to make people feel something. I mean,
that's something that any artist can take. And I think, uh,
he he was the first artist where so you have
to understand I was at the top Cow Studio. So

(48:43):
this is with Marceil Vestri and all these image, very
very image influenced guys from the from the nineties that
you were alluding to, and we came in with like
lots of gritting teeth and lots of cross hatching and stuff.
But then while you're while you're soaking all this stuff up,
you're reading something like one hundred bullets and a lot

(49:05):
of the principles like when a down black it out
is there. You don't have to show everything so it
looks like wallpaper. Just pick out the very very clear
storytelling elements like that hook and the garage where you
can actually inform so much of the feel, so much
of the look. You can you can paint a picture.

(49:26):
But in the end, what we're trying to do is
make an audience member feel something. That's all we're trying
to do. And I love I love it when writers
clearly want the audience to feel something. Yes, the diner
scene that you had, that that you that you showed.
It's a very very quick, very short story, but you

(49:46):
need to feel something at the end of it. And exactly,
I mean that's what this book is, uh.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
Man.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
I I'm a fan of it because I'm a fan
of it first and then you'll learn from a second.
But I'm a fan of it first. And the thing is, oh,
Dave Johnson, Yeah, absolutely, but that.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
For me, Dave.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
Okay, so Dave is working on a commission for me
right now. And I just basically say Dave Johnson because
we know each other from back in the day and
we trade art on occasion. But the thing is, like
I would ask him to do a piece that was
basically about the the New Orleans storyline, m And basically

(50:37):
I don't want to post spoilers, but I don't know
if you remember the bear trap and the trumpet player.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, of course, great story.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
It's in my brain forever, you know what I mean.
And that's all we're trying to do, is artists, is like,
we want to help make these visual things where people
will remember it forever, you know, and you feel something,
And that's all we're trying to do. Uh, artists, writers,
it doesn't matter. We're all part of a team because
we're trying to make you feel things and remember things.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Mike, that story is a great example because truly, you know,
it is as you say, it's about a trumpet player
and stuff. I literally had a jazz soundtrack going in
my head and there's not a note of music in
that story exactly.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
You can hear it. You can hear the whole thing.
You can smell it, like you like. That's what Eduardo does.
He doesn't imagine little details, but he can bring out
a plate of food and you know what that smells like.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Well, also, like there's a perfect example. So this is
a page with not much detail, but what what detailed
did Eduardo decide to really focus on. There's ship on
the floor, there's a cigarette on the floor. It's a
shitty this is a bad place, right, That's all you
need to know is no one has swept, right, and

(51:54):
that that fascinates the shit out of me. That's that's
a that's a choice I don't think I would ever make,
just basically like like I will now because I'm gonna
steal it, but but like like that, that wouldn't occur
to me as the way to get that across, right,
And when I was skimming through Brian's script, we similarly

(52:16):
like I'm gonna throw out ideas and you do whatever
you want, Like, I'm not going to tell you what
to draw, but here's what's happening, here's here's how on
one's feeling about it. Right And And because I've learned
those kind of prompts get the best results and then
and the most surprising results, right uh, And I know
that if I'm delighted and surprise, the audience will be

(52:37):
as well, right and uh and and I'm sure when
this comes in and the pie looks yummy and the
food and the floor looks like shit, you're like, yeah, okay,
now now, now, now we're on something. It also lived in.
This is a problem. I have a television as well.
How many times you're like, yeah, this looks like a set.
It looks like everyone's walking onto this space for the

(52:58):
first time, right.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Every radio station that is depicted on television or film,
I'm like, I've never worked in a place that immaculate.
I know what you mean.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
Oh, here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
I do art studios.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
When you see an art too, and there's nothing on
the like, I've never seen that in my life. It's
where's your pile of papers and your pile of bills
and your pile of reference and the stuff you're blowing off?

Speaker 5 (53:22):
You know?

Speaker 2 (53:22):
You know everyone has the same piles on their desk. Yeah,
I'm sorry, Mike, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Oh no, Just so, this is a book that I
haven't read in years. It maybe over a decade, But
I remember this scene because I remember that kid trying
to impress the girls by putting cottage cheese on a
piece of lettuce, and it looks so gross, But also
in a way that not gross, but like you can
see he's trying, but it's just a piece of cottage cheese.

(53:47):
It's just a piece of lettuce with cotta cheese on it.
And I think that's one of those things where if
it was portrayed like really deliciously, it might not have
the effect that Brian was going for. But I mean
that's the thing. It's like, it really feels like the
us too, just collaborated so well, they were like mind
reading each other, you know, well.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Too as a cover artist Johnson, Oh yes, it's again.
I wouldn't put those guys necessarily together and and it
and truly the covers that Dave doves are also evocative
of this, of the same kind of mood that Riso
is doing, but these are two very different artists.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
I didn't pull too many of the covers, even though
they're all there.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
You go, that's the idea, that's what Mike was talking about,
that story of the hard Way.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
Yeah, oh I had it. Sorry, Sorry, I should have
should have.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
No, No, it's cool, it's on the video. We're all good.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah there, yeah, yeah, And this is this is the.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Hunter Bolts last last issue.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Yeah, and even like the curtain we you know, it's
quite it's quite arrogant to like call your shot other
than one hundred issues, like like there's a lot of
things standing in your way between you and issue one hundred,
no matter who you are and what you're doing, and
you know, uh so, so to get to issue one
hundred is when you get there, you go, oh, I've

(55:04):
done it as well. And like when I got to
issue hundred on Ultimate Spider Man, I was like, oh,
this was arrogant of me to think that this is
like adult like, when you get there, you go idiots,
this does There's there's a million things standing in your way.
So anyway, I did pull a lot of black and
white because it just gave us a chance to see
the choices clearly. Right. I don't know Mike if you

(55:30):
felt this a way, but there is so much attention
to pant folds that it made me feel like an
art teacher really let him have it about pants somewhere
in his like because like, again you have to go
to art school to know and like someone's really focused
on something, someone else told them they sucked at it
or didn't do it right, and then they've they and

(55:52):
now every one of their panels is a fuck you
to that person. No one knows about, right, I don't
know if that's the the case, but it's amazing to me,
how how how much how much folds go in?

Speaker 5 (56:07):
Right?

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Where's another one?

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Like?

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yeah, like even you know, there's a lot, a lot
of a lot of information in the clothes.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
And texture in a way that really Shacken comes to mind,
looking specifically at the clothes and the prints. And again
that that that fur that you had in the previous image, Brian,
Uh that yeah, that one. Yeah, I mean that to
me feels like a Shacken kind of texture choice.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
For all Shakeen was and continues was doing h what
they called zip atone at the time. Now it's filters
and stuff. But like when you think of like these
kind of prints you see them, unlike American flag and
early black kiss, they would literally be a sticker that
you would cut out.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yes, the heart.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Uh. Claus Jansen did it a lot, Bob Layton did
it a lot. Just it was it was ways to create,
you know, pre photoshop, some some actual like textures that
were interesting. I loved it and it was like, oh, well,
I can't draw but I can cut out shapes, and
so I went and spent all my money on zipotone
because Chicken did it. So but these are all hand drawn,

(57:13):
which is I know, and I could be I would
argue more like Will Eisner than anybody else.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Oh okay, yeah, I don't. I don't know if Howard's
still In fact, I'm due to have a new talk
with Howard as far as some stuff that's come out again.
But I am interested if he hand draws now are
free find zipotone in this day and age. I don't
know if he does still use zepotone or no.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
I just read Hey Comics Volume three, and I will
send you a series of questions that I have that
that book is a rage.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
Oh my god. Yeah, absolutely no.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
And maybe the eageriest book I've ever read.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Yeah, I loved it. And with his with his Black
Kiss Omnibus coming out and stuff. I mean, I just
we just did a great hour at terrific on the
Connecticut Show I do every year, and that's why I'm like, oh,
you know, I just talked to him. Don't want to
pug him, but.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
We'll be there next year.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Oh that's great. Hey, that's wonderful man.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Every year. It's just the timing thing. I will be there.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
So that's good.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
All right, So, Mike, any other any other thoughts or
feelings about what you see here or or things I
may may have missed or skipped over didn't see.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
No, I mean, uh no, I mean he's just very
so if you he just he just finished up a
book with distillery with with Brian. They did Blood Brother's Mother.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
I got it. Yep, good stuff. Last time I talked
to him. There you go.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
That's not.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
Oh that's right, so western excuse me.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
Yep, it's so good. It's so good.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Oh my god, looks like Will Eisner watercolors.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
I think that's the thing. It's like it's it's he
gets that bold like bold shape sensibility, but he can
also just that little bit of gradient and rendering in
these watercolors, and it still had that bold feeling of
very clear establishment of light, very clear establishment of you know, background,
middle ground, foreground. But it's just so crunchy and so juicy.

(59:14):
It's so good. And the story again is just I
think the thing about like uh, you know, definitely hundred
bullets and definitely brought brothers blood brother's mother is it's
just heartbreaking, you know, there's he just he's so good
at that, like just breaking your heart.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
And well I also like, look at this one here
you got they got the chicken on the broken chicken
coop that is. I don't know if that's what a
chicken coop broken chicken coop looks like, but damn man,
like you're like, look look at the attention of detail
and then pulling back on the detail at the same time. Yeah,
It's just I don't know. I just like, where did

(59:51):
he find the reference for a broken chicken coop?

Speaker 3 (59:54):
You know?

Speaker 2 (59:55):
And I just I get very impressed, like the work
went into this.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
To me, it's the whole look right now that you know,
if folks at john Ford, you know, Monument Valley kind
of launched shot and stuff that he was known for
in his westerns and everything, then I'm sure Eduardo was
inspired by that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
A lot of john Ford talk in the houses with
a lot of my friends have watched The Fablements for
the first time this week. David Walker called me middle
of the night last night. I just love that Fablements,
and so a lot of that, a lot of john
Ford in our lives this week anyway. Yeah. So also,
I I do like that one hundred bullets was one
of many statements they've made together, like it'll be it'll

(01:00:34):
be the statement that people always think of when they
think of them. But they've continued to work together and
stretch and try new things and own their own things
and and I and I really admire that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Yeah, Brian is shot. For the audio audience, Brian's showing
the cover to Moonshine, which was their prohibition Werewolf book.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Is this from Moonshine? No, this is from something what
was the other one?

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Well that that space Man and yeah that's the side. Yeah,
that's the sci fi thing that they did. And I
talked to Brian about that when it was coming out. No,
I mean that's the thing literally from the past to
the future. They they really covered it all in terms
of their storytelling.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
All right, Well, thank you, Mike. And I literally had
no idea you were an uber Uber fans. That's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
I had to I had to come in allo. Can
I just say really quick, I'm getting tongue tied here
because I started, you know, when I started twenty years ago,
I would listen to word balloon and the interviews and
the you know, the Bendus board, and I see some
Bendus Ward board alumni here and I just want to
say hi. Uh and uh. So I'm getting tongue tied

(01:01:44):
because I'm taken back to how it was twenty years ago,
just starting out, listening to you guys nerding out, and
this just totally takes me back to that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
So yeah, but we were all together, man, Yeah, well
they're on the message board. Man. No, I feel when
I see Zach and people like that, absolutely exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
So to be buddy, thank you so much. I'm gonna
just friend.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
And a boxing fan and a massive boxing We got
to talk about that. We'll talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
How was that half year Patreon boxing? I don't know anyway,
So all right, hey Dave, how you doing? Man?

Speaker 6 (01:02:22):
Oh hey guys, And I want to thank you for
bringing this book up. You know, there's something that's been
on my list forever. You know, it's one of those
things you always hear about and you're like, yeah, I'm
gonna get to that one day. And what's been impressive
to me is that everyone that talks about this book
talks about it very intensely. I never hear anyone and

(01:02:43):
say anything that's the sort of oh yeah, I read it,
and then leave it at that. There you know what
they liked, what they maybe didn't like, but whatever their
feeling was, it's very intensely. I think they goes straight
to what Mike was just talking about about the how
the team of artists worked together to make the reader
feel something. And I think the fact that when we

(01:03:05):
speak to people and their first response is about the
emotion they feel about this story. But that's a victory
right there, no matter what the details may be.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Question.

Speaker 6 (01:03:18):
We talk a lot about the art and one of
the things in volume one, like Brian pointed out, this
very limited color palette that's used and how that affects
the mood of a crime story. It's really interesting because
I just recently read the first volume of Murder, Inc.
And there's a lot of limited color palette choices in

(01:03:40):
that story by by taking you know, the coloring by
Taki Soma that even though it's rendered differently and it's
a little more glossy, I think there's a lot of
similarity in terms of the effect.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Under and I will I will say I wasn't going
to bring it up because I will just talk endlessly
about me. But I revisiting this after many many years,
I was surprised, like, oh my, yeah, this is kind
of what we were aiming for with murder Ink. But
murder Ink we were specifically we had a color theory

(01:04:17):
that was like uh uh uh, non complimentary colors on
the same page, working towards an emotion, and that's not
exactly the same as what's going on here. But yeah,
the limited idea, like don't use all the colors, just
use the colors that will tell the story, right, is
something that I was like, Yeah, we were, we were

(01:04:38):
I think subconsciously very influenced by this. But but but
I know, but I do know. I was consciously influenced
by Dave Stewart. So that's why I think I was
so gravitated towards this. But yeah, thank you for saying that.
I am. I'm a I'm a big believer, particularly now that,
like you know, for the decades we've been able to

(01:05:01):
do full rendering of cinematic photoshop coloring and you can
basically render any kind of idea that sometimes the limited
palette is far more interesting. Just because you can color
everything everything doesn't mean you should. It doesn't mean that's
the answer. Look at Matt Houngs, Matt Hounsworth's work on Hawkeye.

(01:05:25):
Look at this like there's examples where just because you
have every color doesn't mean you need to use every
color right. And how can the color get the emotion
of the scene across while at the same time almost
invisibly help him tell the story right, Because there's a
lot of ways like and I know me the poop
on the movie, like everyone poop's on. But I just

(01:05:47):
rewatched Solo the movie, Solo, the Han Solo movie with
my son who had never seen it. He's a huge
Star Wars fan, and he'd heard it was bad. And
I can't believe in this modern day with all the
tools that are saying it looks that bad and that amountochromatic.
Remember it's a very blue movie. For most of the time.

(01:06:08):
It's like hard blues, but not they're not fun to
look at like you would on a Roger Deakins, Like
Lady Killers is almost all green, but it's scrunches, it's
just ugly blue and it's not helping the story. In fact,
it's muddying the story. And so there a limited palette

(01:06:29):
can also hurt a story, right if it's not being
rendered with thinking about how it helps the story. Right.
Sorry to answer again, but think.

Speaker 6 (01:06:38):
My question is it's actually a writing question, and so
it's mainly a fore you Brian, but John and Mike,
since you guys are there from the beginning, maybe you've
got a perspective on this too. One of the things
that as a modern reader reading this twenty five years
after it was published, that took me a little bit

(01:06:59):
to get used to was just the heavy dose of
urban ethnic slang. And not just the slang, but you know,
the little half words and things like that. And I
think when I hear people criticize their reading of Volume one,

(01:07:19):
that's the thing that turns them off. Of course, we're
reading this in twenty twenty five, Yeah, and I'm wondering
at the time, you know, every book is written for
the audience in the present and at the time, what
was the impact of that. And then when you're writing
things that are set with a very specific character voice,

(01:07:41):
where they're using specific slang, specific intonation, how do you
know how much is too much? Because it's not a
performance like Goodfellas or the Banshees of Inaser and it's
not a live performance like on film or something like
The Wire. When you're reading it, you have to strike

(01:08:01):
a different balance. And I'm wondering, Brian, how do you
approach that when you're writing this type of script.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
It's it's a well much our relationship to language changes constantly, constantly,
Like even since the pandemic, there's been some pretty enormous
changes in how people communicate with each other, and you know,
what they think is appropriate or not appropriate. Coming out

(01:08:29):
of the nineties, I definitely felt as young writers that like,
as long as we did our research and knew what
was coming from a true place, that everything is on
the table, right like like and also like, if your
hero is using racial slurs, they're probably not the hero

(01:08:49):
of the story, like you know, like like it is
a way to say, oh, this person doesn't see other
people as humans, right or or or that you're saying
a lot about this character by the words that they're
you would be how I would like write things back
in the day, right like and and and if I
wrote something you're like, yikes, I guarantee you I overheard
someone say it or someone said it to my face.

(01:09:12):
Like there's a couple of anti Semitic things I've wrote
because someone said it right to my face and it
really hurt my feelings, and I wanted to write it
down and have that person who just said it in
the book gets their ass kicks because I'm not going
to do in real life, and that's what all artists
and writers do. So but then as as I've gotten older,
you kind of see your responsibility to language a little differently,

(01:09:35):
and you're like, and also like, I don't want to
see these words like I'm printed. I don't I don't want.
I don't want, not that they should be censored from
the world, but I don't need to add to it,
right and just and just because I grew up on
the main streets of Cleveland, I heard some people say
some stuff and I absolutely did, doesn't mean that I

(01:09:57):
need to keep perpetuating it or maybe in so I've
been like, like, first, you write the things you hear
because you're trying to figure them out, like what's my
relationship to this word?

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
And then there's some of your heroes are using these
words freely in a way that makes you feel, oh,
I'm allowed to use these words as long as you're
used in art and in character, Richard Pryor being an
example of that. These characters who use words in a
way that said the character would then begot Quinn Tarantino
thinking he could use these words because I'm using in

(01:10:34):
the face of these characters, right, And then certain people
in his life would say, you, like Samuel Jackson. Famously,
it's publicly said, I give Quentin Tarantino permission to use
whatever words he wants because I know what's in his heart.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
But also again, when Tarantino started, it wasn't an issue,
and that is what that's my observation. Well it was,
well it was, but also it was it was it
was shocking, but it was more accepted and more's change
and the culture is constantly changing. And so you, as
a writer, and I say this as a novice, but

(01:11:10):
a sports writer, you have to be aware of the
changing norms and what flew then. And that's why, Dave,
it's great to hear your observation as a modern reader
looking at this stuff and I and I don't think
you're taking it out of context and are reading it
with the appropriate context. But there is more of a
stay in your lane and certain ethnicities or even gender

(01:11:32):
is a lot to talk. Greg Ruck have always got
a great compliments for being a great women's writer, and
I'm glad that I haven't seen the pushback on Greg
currently with Cheshire and Cheetah robbing the Justice League. Yeah,
I don't think so. And again, two Strong Women, it's
a great book, two great strong female Really the book's

(01:11:55):
popular with great women and stuff, so no, it is,
but even more specific with language. Yeah, that's that's a
legitimate concern that I need to be aware of.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
Yeah, please, I actually have from the horse's mouth as
from yesterday when I wrote Brian, hey, we're doing this
book love and we're doing this and he wrote, glad
you enjoyed it. I reread a few issues recently and
found it to be very much of its time, so
much so that I wonder if we'd have the same
latitude today to create what we did yesterday. And there

(01:12:25):
you go, so the author agrees, Yeah, you like, yeah,
I don't like, And you're like, all right, I know
why I did it then. I don't think I do
it today. I have a different relationship to all of this, right,
And also like when you're let me just I don't
know how to when you're coming up, and you're like
trying to like out edgy everybody else, and you're trying

(01:12:48):
to be like like, well, if these people are being edgy,
I don't want to be not edge like, you know,
not like you're trying to out edge lord everybody. But
but there's like, oh, that's I remember Seth Rogan saying
when he saw Forgetting Sarah Marshall and one of his
best friends, Jason Siegel, is butt ass naked in that movie.
Right away, that's the joke. Here's my dick, right, And

(01:13:10):
he goes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
Oh, is that comedy?

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Now? I have to show my dick. Now, that's where
they moved the If I want to be an edgy comedian,
I got to show my dick, right, And then he
shows like a little bit of his button knocked up,
just a little bit of Seth Rogan butt and he
said that is his most as. He couldn't do it.
He could like like he was on his set. They
would absolutely let him. It was a jud Apatos set.

(01:13:34):
If you want to show your dick, go ahead, right,
And then he's like, but so everyone wrestles with that,
where am I in this? What is my honest self
in this? And then as you get older, and I've
had the experience soon after having experience of writing something
like Spider Man, it doesn't it's you know, need to
or get to use any kind of language that would

(01:13:56):
be offensive to anybody or inappropriate.

Speaker 5 (01:14:00):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
And then you you you see how much farther your
writing can be taken without any any of this. You
kind of like, oh, well, I would like to do that.
I would like to I would like to you know,
be there. But I will say, you know, it's it's
it's a it's a fine line, that's all. It's it's

(01:14:22):
and and and sometimes you have to like cross over
the line to go that was the line. I'm I
see it now, Sorry about that, you know. But no
one like when you read this book, I don't think
and I've read other books where we're like, okay, you
have some issues with people, but in this book, I don't.
I don't feel any like evil in anyone's heart, like
no one's no one's right, like anyone did any walk

(01:14:46):
away going oh this is hateful. I don't like this, right, Yeah,
that's that's that. That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
Yeah, please Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
As a reader, I mean like, yeah, obviously this was
a long time ago, and I'm not excusing that, you know,
taking what Brian said into account, uh Brian Azarello about
like it might have been a product of its time,
like a recognition of that. Like even with that, uh,
I don't okay bringing up the wire, right, do you
know what moment just sticks out for me? Is the

(01:15:16):
is the fuck scene? The motherfucker? Sorry? Can I swear
in this?

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
Of course? I hope you hasn't gotten to podcasts yet,
don't worry.

Speaker 7 (01:15:27):
Sorry, So so so that scene sticks out as being
a little bit unrealistic, right, because that's the only everything's
like either f or m f right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
So, but the thing is, with one hundred bullets, there
is this poetry that's very deliberate that I think Brian
was trying to do. That was Brian is doing, you
know how like people finish each other's sentences, and in
a very poetic manner.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
Perhaps, like, uh, Brian might have overstepped boundaries by putting
certain rhythms and whatever into into certain characters' mouths and stuff,
But I do believe that stuff was done in the
absolute best faith of trying to be as authentic because
a big, big turning point in the whole story is
that there is a protagonist. Out of many protagonists in

(01:16:15):
this story, there is a protagonist that we accept as
being we root for. They are very in order to
avoid spoilers, they're very strong, they're very we relate to
this character. They go through a lot, and we empathize
with this character. We sympathize with this character. And then
at the very end it is revealed with the use
of a word that oh, they're actually racist. Do you

(01:16:39):
remember this? Do you remember the character? I'm sure, I
don't want to say who it is.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
Well it could be spoiler free, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
But so it is this thing where I don't think
Brian was trying to be, you know, just borrow this
stuff like I know we use use the Quentin Taranty,
know example. I don't think he was really doing that
because the one moment where he has a character say
uh uh was very deliberate and he used that as

(01:17:13):
a tool to establish the characteristics of this character.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
You my my biggest influence in this space as I
was coming up with Richard Price, who had with literally
read clockers uh and and what he did was he
did research, He like followed people around and then wrote
that what they said, and then quoted them as warmly
and as as he could not the shitty movie the

(01:17:39):
book and uh, sorry the movie drives me nuts.

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
Ivy.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
Uh but but so I. I would then go, oh,
that's what you do. You go listen to people talk
and then you write down and closest you can get to,
not my voice, their voice. You feel like you're winning,
like you feel like that. But I will, I just
I want. I don't want to leave this part of
the conversation without saying that. We'll also discover, as with

(01:18:06):
one of the great joys of the Internet is that
it brought people together, and some people say, yeah, don't
do that. It actually really offends me, it really I
I like, hey, you know what, dude, it's it's not cool.
And that word means a lot more to me than
it will ever mean to you. And as a Jewish person,
there are words that hit me differently than hit other people.

(01:18:27):
And I've actually been in a room where someone said
something that no one reacted to and I went, what
the fuck that? It's like when everyone's like shocked that
JK rollins as a garbage person like Jews had no
we knew from day one that she was anti Semitic,
and the goblins that run the bank and all of
those tropes. It were disgusting. John Stewart did a whole
piece on it ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
Wow. Yeah, so iving never read Harry Potter.

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
But all right, oh it's in the it's in the
movie too.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
Well, yeah, that's I've always seen the first movie. I
didn't give a shit, but there you go. No, man,
I'm not I an't give a shit about the slurs.
I just didn't give a shit about Harry Potter. Pellicanos,
by the way, mentioning that Richard Price was somebody that
you know, you really grafted to. Pellicanos was a big
influence on Azarella very much.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
But anyway, so we now, like, as you get older,
you find out all these words, actually you're not being
cool or edgy or realistic, You're you're actually just perpetuating
language that just bothers them and hurtful.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
We're more aware. Yeah, I think we are, Like, I
really do know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
That's not what I meant.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
Yeah, and truly I do think because everyone's called on
things much more because of social media, and I get
that and I respect that. But that said, I really
do think as someone who has been observing for fifty
plus years that we have we have evolved, and I
do think most reasonable people, well, you know it exactly
a nono. There's still jerks, absolutely there are, but no,

(01:19:49):
I really do think that even gritty writers are more
mindful than they were thirty years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Oh, Like a perfect example is they are word and
how often you would hear it on network television and
how hurtful it was to so many people. Sure, they
didn't speak from it for decades, I mean up until recently.
I remember there was a sitcom like they were using
the word on The Gilmore Girls, which is twenty years ago,
but like still feels like modern culture, right, and you're like, oh, yeah, boy,

(01:20:19):
that's that that that that does not sit well, that
that is not great, or how many SNL sketches just
are to be left where they were.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
The fiftieth anniversary when they when they went through the
montage of all of all the things that they made
fun of that obviously would never be touched to that as.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
One of the great jokes. There was Tom Hanks going
and you all laughed at it, So aren't you really
the problem is pretty pretty great? So yeah, And also
I do want Tad wrote something that David Walker is
clearly obviously one of my partners and someone I talked
to about this these subjects a great deal and was

(01:20:58):
a very influential on the language that I used for
Miles Morales's first years, and uh, and and and the
way he handles the language and also the visuals. A
big gym is in in in in the face of
what those words meant before, right, it's kind of like
and also because David is David, David is in a

(01:21:20):
position to like kind of like use those words any
any goddamn way he wants. And and that's uh the
way it should be.

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
Yeah, No, David's amazing. Yeah. And Big Jim and the
Big Jim and the White Boy for the audio audience
obviously an analogy to Huck Finn and Jim so.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
Yeah, and and and drawing in a completely different way
than those great great book Yeah, all right, Ethan, how
are you? And and well, we'll try to keep it tight.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
Actually I think Wesley was before and I want to
I want to go. I want everyone to have the
opportunity of being in order. It's kind of jumbled on
the screen, So if we do miss somebody everyone whose
hand his race will absolutely be knowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:22:00):
But I know and I did want to get out
before Kimmel hit. So let's uh let's.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
Uh well, West Coast pal you get.

Speaker 2 (01:22:07):
Time YouTube, it's not airing here.

Speaker 1 (01:22:10):
We have to Oh really, do you have one of
those thin clear and next stars bummer? I'm VC, i'm
va dvring. But that's all right, go ahead, all right, Weslie.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
How you doing man? Uh doing good?

Speaker 8 (01:22:20):
Thank you for uh well, I guess everybody who voted
for this this was a fun blast from the past.
Uh So, Brian, you were asking how did we come
to this book? And John, my story is kind of
similar to yours. You know, in two thousand, I was
graduating high school and I was starting to not read
just mainstream Marvel DC superhero books. I was starting to

(01:22:43):
read you know, watch Man, Astro City, Daredevil, Born Again,
all that stuff, but then really getting into Vertigo too,
and I remember, you know, this was just kind of
that list of you know, these are these are the
books this company is putting out. Hey, the put out Preacher.
What else are they putting out? And oh the first
issue is ten bucks great. I love that about Vertigo.

Speaker 2 (01:23:05):
And preach another book filled with language that wouldn't fly.

Speaker 8 (01:23:13):
I have a very great anyway, and this was, you know,
kind of looking back at Vertigo. Because Vertigo was a big.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Deal for me.

Speaker 8 (01:23:21):
I read, at least trying everything Vertigo did. And this
is really kind of that bridge from you know, the
nineties going into what I consider the heyday of Vertigo,
the two thousands. So like this book, Why the Last Man, Fables,
all this was coming out, and this was one of
the at least when I read it, no Vertigo. It

(01:23:44):
was a vertical book without a fantastical element to it.
It was just people, you know, and it was a
crime comic. I hadn't read many crime comics at that point,
and I think that this this can kind of serve
as a link to not just Vertigo, you know, but
moving crime books into you know that that that arena

(01:24:07):
of it. And I think that this is and I'm
not gonna lie, this isn't my favorite of the Vertigo
books or my favorite crime comic. I think, you know,
I made a comment in the chat that I appreciate
this one a hundred issues. If I'm going to be
honest and give a criticism, I think the story became
so labyrinthian in the back half, but like I was like,

(01:24:30):
wait a minute, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
What's all this?

Speaker 8 (01:24:33):
But you know, there was still enough there where you
got it, and I appreciated that. And you know, it
starts off as one thing of just you know, hey,
this random person gets a suitcase, but that is the
gateway into the larger story, and we get hints of
that in this first collection at the end of that
issue five of like, oh, there's a lot more going on,

(01:24:54):
and using you know, like we said, episodic stories to
tell larger narratives. I think this does it great. So
this is uh, you rang a bell. That was important
to me.

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
It's that we should not skip over what a tremendous
story hook. This is an incredible, unlimited potential story hook,
and when you stumble upon them or curate them, it
is such a magical thing, like, oh my god, I
came up with an idea that lets me do anything
I want, is and and is incredible. And so though

(01:25:29):
I see your criticism of the last half, I think
I kind of celebrate that part because I'm like, the
easiest thing to do was just repeat the first twelve
issues over and over, and over again, just like most
like network television does, they kind of set the table
like Law and Order, here's the hook, and then we're
just gonna do that over and over and over again.

(01:25:51):
We're never going to add anything to it. It's comforting
and instead we're going to do this and we're going
to take you for a ride. And this is comic,
sure expensive, and we think that we would like to
challenge you for like give you the gift of a challenge,
and uh, and so so I I would, I would
go there with it. But yeah, a hook like this

(01:26:12):
is so good, so good, right, I mean, even like
as as as as a peer who was nearby when
someone when that someone announces a hook like this, like,
oh that's such a good it's so good. Ed ru
Baker scene of a crime was a similar one for me. Yeah, like,
oh that idea was right there and nobody did it.

(01:26:35):
You know, it's just it's it's you know, it's just
it's just beautiful. Anyway, thank you, thank you, Leslie.

Speaker 8 (01:26:41):
That was Robert was Robert next.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
To me, Ethan was next, and he's got please go ahead.
Ethan's got the res a lighting, so all right, fair enough,
it's late in my some of my kids are asleep.

Speaker 5 (01:26:56):
So that's what this is about. One of the things actually,
when I first read this is when I picked them all
up when I visited them years later, I actually ended
up reading volume three first, and so like emotionally, volume
three is the one, and one of the things that
I appreciated reading that and then going back to volumes
one and two was that this is what an incredible

(01:27:21):
challenge it is to have a cast where everyone is
a bad ass and everyone one is radically different. It
is that we saw, like the page that you put
up early on, how many people are in that cast
and every last one of them is an absolute could
be an absolute nightmare, right, And so that really has

(01:27:47):
a you you run the risk, and we've all seen
movies like this wherein everybody's a bad ass. You can't
sustain a cast like this. If in myself thunderbolts. That's
the reason they killed off that character, like right away,
they just shot her in the head and finished her,
because like, we just can't have that many bad asses
in one place, right, how many people can get punched

(01:28:08):
at one time?

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
And I would argue, yeah, yeah, yes to that, But
I would also that's another version in Thunderbolts and Suicide
Squad are this kind of thing where no one is saved.
Were killing someone right away? To let you know, any
one of these characters except for Florence Pugh, who's contracted
for nine movies.

Speaker 5 (01:28:27):
Yeah, well, because I was listening, well at the time,
I was listening to one of the I think it
was either the writer or one of the directors. They're like,
we have like so many punch you guys, and there's
just too many. There's nothing new about having another bad
ass that can also kick everybody's ass on the team.
And somehow he manages to make them all so different

(01:28:49):
that the characterization is incredible. They all have very particular
motives and I really like it. And one of the
things actually about Volume three, the character Curtis, is that
he actually gave me ethos. Like his ethos is so
clear that he says something in there that I teach
to my sons. I have kids, and I say to
my kids in my classroom, and it's always give always

(01:29:13):
give a man a chance to do the right thing.
Always give a man a chance to do the right thing.
And every time there's a conflict coming up and you
think you've been wronged, you can turn it around and
you can turn that into a moment of grace and
just be like, are you sure this is what happened?
And it gives them a moment to save face, and
it gives them a moment to possibly reconsider what they've done.

(01:29:34):
And you can bring the hammer down if you need to,
but always give a man a chance to do the
right thing. And those words have come out of my
mouth constantly for the last twenty years just because of
that character in volume three, because they have such strong
personalities and they're so easy to follow well.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
And also going back to what we just talked about
about the hook of the book is that literally the
premise so the book is, here's a here's a suitcase
that's going to let you really confront your needs as
a character, Like what does a character want? Like we're
all writers here, like, like, what does a character want?

(01:30:14):
What happens if they don't get it? What happens they
don't get it?

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
Right now?

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
What's standing in their way? The suitcase represents all of it.
And there's a character holding the suitcase who knows exactly
at least on the basic level, like this person did
you wrong. Here's here's the suitcase, right.

Speaker 5 (01:30:29):
And do they want it? Is revenge? What they want
to do.

Speaker 2 (01:30:32):
They didn't ask for the suitcase, they didn't fill out
the forms said I would like the suitcase. The person
appeared out of nowhere, and particularly in the first year
of the book, these people are minding their own business.
They they are, they are not they are not looking
for revenge, They're just trying to get on with their life,
right and uh. And this person comes in and goes, no,
you have another chance to to.

Speaker 5 (01:30:54):
Have and the premise works perfectly as well because he
can have this big old, this bigger storyline like the
X Files. You have this big storyline and then you
can just drop in individual issues with Barrel Monroe, individual
issues like the one in the diner. We talked. We
saw that what were the diner and the black belt
fork and the dirty floor? Right, that's just a one
shot issue because he had a great idea. And you know,

(01:31:16):
Graves has been has been doing this all over the place.
So you get to see things that are not connected
to the main storyline, which are just like I said,
just a phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
I was also like in the reread surprised that they
weren't all one shot issues. In my head, I conflated
them like every story like Dizzey story was one issue,
and it's not. It's there's either multiple or two parters,
you know. And so that that was weird that my
brain went to that. I think, yeah, I forgot about
it happened today they would be all one issue stories,
you know. Yeah, Robert, how you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
Great?

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
Great notes, Ethan, that was all well said.

Speaker 9 (01:31:54):
I'm good, I'm good, thank you. I wanted to point
out and I shared this on the discord when I
got to this page. So it's been.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
God like over fifteen years since I read.

Speaker 9 (01:32:05):
I started working at a comic shop when I was
in college, you know, and I kind of had to like, hey,
here are the books you need to read because of
these of the books that like you want to turn
on to new customers who may not know anything about comics.
It was like this, you know, Walking Dead, like all
those ones. Right, so it's been some time since I
read it. In my mind, it was like a hard boiled,
gritty kind of like crime comic, like more like Brubaker,

(01:32:27):
you know, criminal. But then I got to this page
and this is what I shared in the discord. It's
if anyone's got their their their book with them. It's
page thirty eight thirty nine. It's when Dizzy's talking with
all the moms in the park. And I would love
to see the script for this, but like you said,
Brian probably lost the scripts that are gone. There's a
little boy standing there like pantsless, like in the park,

(01:32:48):
and as you know, as a father of little kids,
yeah yeah, that's you know, but it's this image of
a police car in driving up to them, and this
is when the cops are coming up to tell them
that like, hey, something's just gone wrong, you need to
get out of the area.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
But it's almost bounding, it's bouncing. It's very Roger Rabbit.

Speaker 9 (01:33:07):
And I was like, that's a weird artistic choice for
this gritty crime comic. And then I turned the page
again and Risso does it again. The cop cars are
like bouncing away, you know, almost like as they're driving,
and I'm like, wait, I thought this was like a
serious like this is an odd choice. But then as
I kept going and then I saw the then the
you know, the mystery kind of becomes a little more

(01:33:30):
revealed with Dizzy like who is this grade? So then
you get to the second story arc with the bartender
and the head of the tech company, and you wind
out that there's this whole like, oh, this is like
a it's got more in common with powers than it
does with criminals in terms of like, you know what,
what kind of story it wants to tell. It's fun
with moments of like real, yeah, it rises this like

(01:33:50):
perfect middle line where like, no, it's not just gonna
be dreary the entire time. There's moments of levity, there's
moments of light, you know, bouncing police cars, but also
you know, you really, you really are in with Dizzy's character,
and I just thought like that page, I'm like, oh,
there we go. That's you know, that's a perfect encapsulation
of of what the story is. These cops are coming
up to say that this whole bar has been shot up,

(01:34:11):
but then the police cars are bouncing, so you're you
can't take your page off of the artwork is not boring.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
It always keeps you in.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
Yeah, well I think there's to me also, I see
Eisner there like if you go to the city or
even contract with God, whether you you you you remember
very serious things right, And there's the feeling you had
reading it, but when you see how it's rendered or revisited,
it's very theatrical. Not it's so it looks like, you know,

(01:34:42):
almost like has bugs bunny gestures to it. But really
it's just this, It just it's just theatrical.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
So the yeah, I think Rodo is like, what's the
most interesting? The car rolling up slowly is not as
interesting as the car? You know, also very you'll notice
it's almost like a batmobile coming at you, right, Yes,
it's almost like a sinister thing like popping at you,
like this mystery car. So what do they want? You know? So, yeah,

(01:35:13):
the influences are amazing. And I also because this also
adds to the Will Eisner thing, is that you see
this sometimes subtled, sometimes not settle at all, the influence
of bl exploitation, juice, floitation, uh, all the all the
exploitation films in media that this very much is influenced by.

(01:35:35):
Obviously it's trying to be the more literary version, uhuh,
literate version of that stuff. But you know, when we're
in the Hispanic culture, there's they're using a lot of
that imagery. And when there we're in blaxploitation elements were there,
and and other Italians. It's like every everything and and
and exploitation sinema language. And they talk about it endlessly

(01:36:00):
Quentin Tarantino's podcast, Uh thing that everything is heightened, everything is,
everything is a bullhorn. Everything is as loud as it
can be because for a lot of the filmmakers, this
is the only time this car is ever going to
be on camera, So let's do something fucking cool, right,
and and and this and this character is going to

(01:36:21):
come in and they're gonna make an entrance, so they're
gonna do something wacky with the camera or what they're wearing,
or with the line they come in with. So everything's heightened,
and it's it's it's really become a big part of
our our of all of our storytelling. Like when you
watch certain shows on television, including The Wire, there is

(01:36:41):
that there is that language is there. You know, it's
part of certain characters, not all characters, but certain characters
come in with that energy and that's the storytelling idea.
So so you have to think about whether you want
it to be nice and quiet, you know, like like
like a Kubrick kind of quietness to it or or
do you want to come in yelling and screaming with

(01:37:02):
a bullhorn and a pot and pan. You know. So
I great note, great note, Robert, and great shirt. I
would like that, hurt that. How you doing man, and
we're gonna I try to wrap it up type And
I'm actually dying to talk to you too. And I'm
very nice. Nice to see you. How you doing, Zach
and one of my five favorite people on the internet.

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
How you doing? I'm doing great? Thanks?

Speaker 10 (01:37:22):
Uh yeah, this so David and Ethan kind of hit
on some of the stuff I was thinking about as well.
But I like Dave, I came to this for the
first time ever with the book club, so okay, cool, Yeah,
And what I found interesting was and just looking at
me personally with it. I'm glad I came to it
now because I don't think I would have had the
same appreciation for it if I had read it back

(01:37:44):
when I was when it was coming out, and when
I look at and just how I see the world
differently now versus what I what I remember how I
saw the world then, and and the dialogue did kind
of throw me off at first because it did feel
very stereotypical at times, but the characters themselves didn't. And

(01:38:07):
when I first read the first I think the first
story was three issues, and I was like, Okay, we
got a revenge story going here, and I was kind
of curious what the through line was.

Speaker 3 (01:38:16):
Having never read it, I knew the basic.

Speaker 10 (01:38:18):
Concept of it, but by the time I got to
the short story with Missus Bug where she walks into
the police department and confesses to the murder and the
detectives don't take her serious or they start to, but
at the end, the morality of the characters was what
I found fascinating as we went through the guy who

(01:38:40):
in the second arc where he's out for revenge at
first and then she pulls at him financially and then
double crosses him, and then again getting to that story
with Missus Bug, where I didn't know if the police
just brushed her off because they didn't take her seriously,
or if they recognize that the guy that she kills
a piece of shit and they didn't want to just
deal with having to put her through her situation when

(01:39:03):
she's already dealing with her kid and her husband being
gone and everything like that, and they just said, we're
just gonna let this go, and I just I found
the character studies and the different levels of empathy and
sympathy with the characters. It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:39:21):
That's why when the language would use today doesn't tip,
because the characters are being handled with empathy. This is
where they came in you when you brought up the
morality the characters in changing over time. And there's actually
an episode of blank Check Podcasts that came out this

(01:39:42):
week about the movie The Lady Killers, which is, by
by most people's appreciation, a less her Coen Brothers movie
with good intentions, but it doesn't land as well. And
there were two issues in the movie. A the morality
of it, like who were we voting for here? And
and also there's some language in that movie that is

(01:40:03):
super yikes, right, particularly with with directors and writers who
have not written a lot of African American characters. And
you're like, oh, oh, this is this is you know.
And then with some research you find out that Marlon
Wayans improved almost every line that people have a trouble with,
and the co Brothers went, oh, okay, that's what he sees.

(01:40:26):
The character is saying, let's go with the more natural,
you know, take, but everyone like thinks it's racist dialogue
from the Comb Brothers and it actually wasn't, which is
which is interesting. But yet it's an interesting they chose
to put in their movie, you know, so it's it's
interesting relationship. The other thing that conversation about the Lady

(01:40:47):
Killers and Tom Hanks's character brought up a conversation about
the fluidity of morals in storytelling and how like a
perfect example would be the movie The Graduate, where a
lot of people saw The Gradual for the first time
and went, yeah, man, that guy got a raw deal,
and then you watch it as an older person, you
go that kid is a psychopath and should be in jail, right,

(01:41:10):
But like I remember seeing it as a young man going, yeah,
that guy gets it. Man, the world sucks man, world
doesn't get me. And then you're like, that guy is
stalking and destroying a family because he's not getting what
he wants. And it's just the differences and how things
me to you as you get older. One we've talked
about like Spielberg tripping on the ending of Close Encounters

(01:41:34):
now that he's an elder statesman filmmaker, and when like,
you guys know that Steven Spielberg has re edited Close
Encounters like five times and keeps putting it back out
because it's the biggest mistake he's made as a young filmmaker,
is that, Dad, Dad, you don't bandon your family. I
don't care how many aliens give you the golden ticket

(01:41:55):
to go. You've got children. And so this is now
you watch Close Encounters, you can only watch it from
the point of view of the little kid who you
now know is Steven Spielberg watching his family fall apart.
Hence the fablemans and uh and and my dad left me.
It must have been for a good reason. I bet
it was aliens, like science or something cool. Right, So

(01:42:17):
it's a but now that he's a parent, he looks
at it goes no, there's no no, Dad gets on
that chip.

Speaker 3 (01:42:22):
It just doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
It's just a bad ending. It doesn't work, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
Eber It used to say that about like Mastriani and
La dolce Vita, that as a young man he totally
could empathe. As a man, I'd like to be him.
And then yeah, as an older man, he's like, this
guy's an idiot, Yeah, immature idiot.

Speaker 2 (01:42:38):
Yeah, it's an incredible experience to feel.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
Yeah, that's right, man. It hits you a different way
as you as you get older.

Speaker 2 (01:42:45):
Ferris Bueller was wrong anyway, so as.

Speaker 1 (01:42:48):
Someone as someone else would who said it in the chat?
That and I'm sorry, I'm already of the chat too.
That was That was a great observation. Oh, it was
about Faris Bueler's day day off. He's the bad guy
at first stay off.

Speaker 2 (01:43:02):
Daniel was the bad guy in.

Speaker 1 (01:43:03):
Car Karate Kid. That's right, that's what it was. Who
was karate Kid? Well, certainly from Cobra Kai we've learned that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:09):
So yes, okay, Dave, are you saying that?

Speaker 5 (01:43:13):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:43:13):
Oh, you're asking does any character actually use all the
bullets in the case? I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:43:17):
I don't remember. I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
I really now, I thought you were going to ask,
did anyone have the whole set of books in the case?
Did they ever put out a hundred bullets case with
the books?

Speaker 1 (01:43:25):
Oh that's a good question. I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):
That seems like a missed opportunity. Yeah, really, yeah, absolutely,
I have a Blade Runner case, I have an Avengers case.
I should have a hundred bullet case.

Speaker 1 (01:43:35):
That's a very good point. I don't know. That's very
very funny. But yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:38):
I know you're and it's very good to see you,
and you have the opportunity to bring it on home
with an excellent observation that brings us all thing together
in a nice little bow.

Speaker 11 (01:43:49):
The first thing I'll say is that every woman in
this is very sultry, even the middle aged waitress. This
is like Dorothy Malone is the bookstore owner in the
Big Sleep, like what is happening? But my question as
a writer for you is, you know, this is my trade,
which is nineteen issues. We barely know anything about the
Minutemen at the end of nineteen issues. As a writer
in the current market, do you ever say, oh, this

(01:44:10):
is long form story. You're going to learn about the
minute Man over eighty issues and then I'm going to
wrap it up. Or do you say, I got to
figure this out in twelve because the market isn't going
to hold me up longer than that.

Speaker 2 (01:44:22):
It's that's an excellent question, and I will say that
it's kind of a mixture of you kind of go.
I guess I don't care if you ever find out like,
I'll get there if I have to. I remember on
Power as it was, what's Christian Walker's secret? Like why
did he? Why is he here and not there?

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:44:42):
So I'm on issue too with no real sense that
I'm going to get to get past issue six right
Like so I really like I'm only comparing a feeling
I had about like having been there, and I can't
say this is what Brian thought. But you do kind
of like either arrogantly go I'm going to tell it
one way or another. I'll figure it out. I'm just

(01:45:04):
gonna you know, it's called positive visualization. I can see
the hundredth issue. I'm going to make it happen right
one way or another, I'm going to make it happen.
And that does work in a weird way, like you
can really kind of wish things into existence. Some of
our favorite things were wished into existence like this. But

(01:45:27):
there's also a sense where you go, well, if I
only get to do six issues, only get to do
twelve for any crime comic in any market, would be
a gift beyond measure. You kind of say to yourself, well,
I'm going to tell the story and hope I get
to a place where I teased people so hard that
they're like yeah, I'm going to stay until I find

(01:45:48):
out what happens in the minute men, right, So it's
and also that's just American comics. It's like when you're
reading manga. I think one of my favorite quotes recently
was one of my students said, I like, I have
my students bring in their favorite and least favorite comic experiences,
and they talk about why, you know, let's just get
to know each other and get to have more literacy

(01:46:08):
among the group, and particularly with my manga infused students,
I'm very interested because that's not a space i'm very
I'm as attached to. And that's when the students will say,
I didn't like this book, it's my least favorite. I
only read the first forty eight volumes, and then I
build on the three D and eighty. I'm like, there's

(01:46:30):
not an American cartoonist who wouldn't kill for that. You
only read forty eight volumes. Oh my god, if I
could get to read forty eight volumes of anything. So
people have different relationships to how much they'll put up
with or or or what they're okay with not getting right.
But I think your best bet is to just follow

(01:46:52):
your gut and go, I guess I'm okay if you
don't know this, like like there are things about any
universe I've helped build, or there was stuff I didn't
get to or I couldn't get to, and you find
yourself okay with it, like you're like, and if I'm
not okay with it, then I have to find a

(01:47:13):
way to tell the to get I have to get
back to work, you know, Like I'm Phenomena. That's the
three stories I wanted to tell. They're big and there's
giant stuff every one of those characters. I know tons
more about then you'll ever know, right, But I think
I'm okay just being me and Andre if that makes sense,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:33):
But I hear though, Yeah, I can relate, Ane, because honestly,
I've asked that question of other characters or creators, and
certainly especially with a lot of what was happening with
Image in the aughts and in the early twenty tens,
people did have longer runs, and now obviously there just
isn't the attention because there's so much other product to

(01:47:54):
compete with it and everything. And I like what Zach
said too, that apparently Kirkman talked about that was invincible
that the reveal about Omniman being bad wasn't going to
come till twenty five, And it was Jeff Valentino who
told him, you better make it sooner because this book
may not make it to twenty five. So powers, yeah,
I mean, there.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
You go, he goes, He goes, figure a way to
wrap it up or get into your heart. You're going
to black and white, you know, because you can't. You
can't afford where we are. And then we we both
those books locked out in a way that it doesn't
normally happen, but you do. You you can't go into
any one of these storytelling ideas without kind of having

(01:48:37):
to how far can I take this?

Speaker 1 (01:48:39):
Also?

Speaker 2 (01:48:40):
And and I haven't asked Brian this. Maybe there's some
videos online we can find where he talks about this,
where the book might have been one thing for the
first year, and when he got to end the first year,
he the writer said, oh, I know what I'm writing about,
like like like sometimes you're writing passionately about something and
you think, think you know why you're writing about it,

(01:49:01):
and then you get to it, and then then you
read it back to yourself, ago, Oh I'm still mad
at somebody like like they're like you're You're like, oh,
this is yeah, this is about sixth grade. Okay, I
gonna like, all right, I'm gonna deal with this. And
that's totally valid and good and and so something that
was only supposed to go a year ends up being

(01:49:23):
you know, ten years of storytelling, twenty years of storytelling obviously,
like Star Wars, Way Beyond the Skywalker saga now right,
so or may I highly recommend. I haven't finished it,
but Alien Earth first episode was one of the great
storytelling experiences I've had this year. Did you watch this,
John now yet?

Speaker 1 (01:49:43):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:49:44):
Boy?

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
Oh boy? What good to hear building and storytelling and
if you know Alien's great, you'll be tickled to death
from top to bottom. But man, oh man, what a
great way in and it's got a hook inside it
and what's spoil it? Then I'm so mad I didn't
think of it for all these years. I'll never stop
kicking myself. But on like, I know this more from

(01:50:07):
my friends that work in television. You know, you could
work on something for two years and you're canceled in
three episodes, right, Like, well, that was a lot of planning,
didn't happen. There are hundreds and thousands of TV shows
that we're supposed to go as long as Mash.

Speaker 1 (01:50:23):
That Caper show Smith that CBS had that only made
it like three or four episodes? Where was it about
a carbroking? Yeah, and it was I mean it was
brilliant TV. And yeah, it was cut off. But after
like three or four episodes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:50:36):
Yeah, So you kind of like, you know, anything can happen,
So you've got to kind of choose what what what
story you'd be happy with telling, because today is the
only day you're going to get to tell.

Speaker 1 (01:50:46):
A story, right, absolutely, and a.

Speaker 2 (01:50:48):
Long answer, but it's it's a it's a complicated one
and one that everyone comes at it differently. And we've
we John, You've had people on the show announcing huge
universes and two issues came out and never heard from again.
Yeah right, yeah people or that of course was happening.
It's just sometimes it's just timing and you know.

Speaker 1 (01:51:11):
And that's why I always give up to especially Image
guys that really put out in the first issue Okay,
this is the journey. Do you want to come on
this journey or not? And they put so much in
their first issue Unfortunately, that's kind of what you got
to do. I mean, I'll never forget. I think it was.
I think it was when Kevin Smith did Green Arrow
and the way it ended with the first issue, and

(01:51:31):
again thankfully it was Kevin Smith, and it was you
know again I love Green Arrow, so I was there,
but now you never know, got someone who was good.
Obviously Greenhow was being canceled right now at DC UH.
And I'll be honest, I haven't picked it up to
really read whoever's currently writing it, and now I want to.
I was intrigued by the Red Hood direction until the
writer got in trouble for you know, the the Kirk
stuff and everything, and and it's like, oh, well, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:51:54):
I'm not going to read it. There you you you
soon realize that you have almost no control past what
you're typing, whether things were going on, and so. But
I will say what I've learned, the only thing I
really learned, like from all these examples, is if you

(01:52:14):
come out and say this is a new universe of ideas,
hold on to your hats. A lot of people go,
do you know, dude, I got a lot on my
plate amen. But if you go, here's the first issue
of a little story I've told. But you know in
your heart that this unlocks my universe, right, it gets
more people in, like, let let them hook in and

(01:52:36):
go Okay, I I would like to I would like
to go to here versus hold on. This is eight
new series and they're all interconnected and you and you're
already behind right. Is is some I've seen a lot
of really good work, heartbreakingly not find its way just
because of the way in ambition a storyteller has over

(01:52:58):
sold it, right. And I don't know anyone working on
on their book right now who doesn't see it as
the next Star Wars, right, But none of them are
going to be other than But you have to kind
of feel that to want that. But again, this and
what we're dealing with here, a hundred bullets? Is it
worked perfectly? Right? Yeah? Number of Sonic Distruptors one exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:53:25):
I got all.

Speaker 2 (01:53:26):
Seven issues that came out and they all say one
of twelve on them, and when I was in the
DC archives, I got to see the other issues. Anyway,
it was the most magical thing. And the guy thought
I was joking when he goes we have everything DC.
Ever did I go, do you have the missing issues
of Sonic Destructors from nineteen eighty seven? And he goes,
are you joking with me? I go, no, I'm not.
Do you have them because I'm doing and you have them?

Speaker 1 (01:53:48):
Oh that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:53:49):
Yep, that's funny. But it's a great question and one
to think about. But there's if I've learned any lessons,
particularly in this in this marketplace that we're in now,
is if you ask for a little and give a lot,
you'll get back a lot. Does that make sense? Okay,
I'm getting a lot of that. So yeah, all right,

(01:54:09):
I this was a wonderful conversation. I'm going to It's
an hour longer than I meant it to be, and
that's mostly my fault. I apologize for that. Thank you
for joining us. We will we will post this online.
I'm going to post this script on the thing and
other things. In fact, wait, wait, I just got I
just got an email from Brian as a well, oh yeah,

(01:54:29):
so I asked Brian. At the end of the script,
you will see a few pages of just floating dialogue,
not connected to anyone speaking, and I couldn't like, like,
scroll to the end of the PDF. You'll you'll see
just like lines of yelling, right. And I was like, oh,
were these cut cuts? Because I do that too. If

(01:54:52):
I fraction makes fun of me if I cut, if
I cut the line of dialogue, I put it into
a file folder of other cut lines of dialogue that
I never revisit and I never use again. But I
can't bring myself to just hit delete. I just don't know.
It was clever in the second I thought of it,
and and and and and I think one day I'm

(01:55:13):
going to open up this file and it's going to
have all Oh I need all this dialogue. I need
all of it. But dialogue is in the moment of
a character. You can't just cut and replace it. But
I thought, for a second ago, hey, Brian, did you
send me a script with a bunch of stuff you cut,
like on the like on the back of the like
is this the wrong file kind of thing? And he

(01:55:35):
wrote to me, uh no, that's me riffing. So this
is just dialogue he threw at ed Eduardo, and that
I've never done. I was very fascinated by that idea.
So when you're looking at it, when you get to
the end of the script, and maybe there's an exercise
in trying to write a story just using that deleted dialogue.

Speaker 1 (01:55:58):
That's funny and it's very chip Patty absolutely man, very
good at observation. You know, I am with my golden
age of television writers. So well said, well said, I
wanted to watch Network and yes, absolutely among other of
course Marty and a million other great things at the
hospital at great body of work from Patty Chefsky over
the years. Brian, do you mind if we tease the

(01:56:19):
next book which and it's sad because yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:22):
I announce it on Jingsworld. Let's just say what the
next two books are so everyone can enjoy at their things.
So go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
Well, and it's a shame because I didn't realize that
it was announced that Kelly Thompson's Birds of Prey is
coming to an end, one of the great I mean,
I really loved what Gail did back in the day
with Birds of Prey and Secret Six and all that stuff,
and I've kind of paid attention of who's doing things.
Kelly Thompson had my attention from day one, and I
mean I know she had her Marvel stuff prior to that,

(01:56:50):
but the team dynamics that she puts in Birds of
Prey and really essentially positioning Big Barta as basically a
Thor kind of character, which makes sense for a new god.
But I had never seen Big bart written that way.
It just, I mean, my esteem for her has just
book Club.

Speaker 2 (01:57:09):
But yes, the next one is by Kelly Thompson and crew.
And then but I'm probably gonna end up reading the
whole series now that it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:57:19):
It's a yeah, it's amazing, It's absolutely worth it. And
then after Birds of Prey.

Speaker 2 (01:57:23):
Going to do We're going to do the Richard Parker
novel by uh, Darwick Cook, Darvin Cook. Sorry just blank
for a second.

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
No, I've been doing it all night, don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:57:34):
So Darwin Cook adapted the Parker novels. We're going to
do the first one. Uh the spoilers, you're going to
want to read all of them once you read the
first one. So, but we're going to read the first one.
I think it's The Hunter. Is that the first one?

Speaker 1 (01:57:47):
I think? So? I think I got the Martini collection.
I gave all my singleish volumes to my younger nephew
and everything, all right, So yeah, great stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:57:57):
In October Kelly's Kelly, and mid November we'll do Parker.
I'm I have some trips in November, so we'll have
to dance around those. But other than that that those
those will be the next two, and then we are
open to discussing what the next one want to be.
I kind of feel I want to do something more

(01:58:17):
international for the next one, like maybe something manga. Maybe.
I mean, everyone wants to do akira, but like you know,
we've all read a kira yea and if you haven't,
well they you can read a kira. But we'll find one.
Maybe don't Maybe maybe that, maybe that's the one. Mario,
your floating finger sprolling across my screen. That was crazy?

Speaker 3 (01:58:38):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:58:39):
Thank you everyone. This was absolutely lovely, a good way
to spend an evening, and I hope you learned something.
I'm excited to continue this conversation in the Patreon and
the discord, and if you have thoughts that you wanted
you brought to the chat that were not brought up,
please drop them in the discord. If you want any
follow up questions, even if it's later on down the line. Hey,

(01:59:00):
I remember two weeks ago we were talking about this.
Please feel free to uh ooh, day tripper Ethan, that's
a good one. Sure, the brothers, absolutely, that's a really
good one.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):
Yeah, i'd be I'll be honest, I'd rather do day
Trippers than the manga.

Speaker 2 (01:59:13):
Frankly, let's let's call it. It's called da Yeah, because
Diana shuts my mentor. Diana helped the boys become a boy,
so I actually have some content that I could share.

Speaker 3 (01:59:25):
There you go, so that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:59:26):
And Matt's relationship with them as well with Casanova, so
all right, that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:59:32):
Yeah, I like it. I like to I like the suggestion. Absolutely,
there we go again, and they're.

Speaker 2 (01:59:35):
Nice and women people behind the scenes, like.

Speaker 1 (01:59:37):
The brothers are amazing brothers.

Speaker 2 (01:59:40):
But it's been lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:59:41):
It's been a couple of years since I've seen Fabio,
but every time I see him, he's very warm. I've
seen I haven't seen Gabe as much as I've seen Fabio.
But great, guys, amazing all right.

Speaker 2 (01:59:49):
John, thank you for hosting this, thank you for posting it.
Thank you for another excellent conversation. All right, Thanks guys,
see you online.

Speaker 1 (01:59:57):
Thanks everybody, take care.

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