February 3, 2025 • 42 mins
Elevate your marketing strategy by understanding the transformative power of public relations. Michelle Garrett shares expert insights on integrating PR with marketing efforts, emphasizing collaboration, authenticity, and the importance of writing in crafting compelling narratives.
• PR as a game changer for brand visibility
• Core writing skills as foundational for PR success
• Understanding the role of AI in content creation
• The evolving importance of press releases today
• Integrating PR with social media and content marketing
• Challenges in measuring PR success
• Effective media outreach and building relationships
• The growing role of authentic influencers in PR
• Necessity for collaboration between marketing and PR teams
• Long-term commitment required for PR effectiveness
Guest Links
- Buy B2B PR That Gets Results: A Guide to Simple and Targeted Public Relations Practices by Michelle Garrett
- Garrett Public Relations
- Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn
Learn More:
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- Buy Maximizing LinkedIn for Business Growth: https://nealschaffer.com/maximizinglinkedinamazon
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- Learn about My Fractional CMO Consulting Services: https://nealschaffer.com/cmo
- Download My Free Ebooks Here: https://nealschaffer.com/books/
- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- All My Podcast Show Notes: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
PR is often misunderstood in the marketing
world, but it can be a gamechanger for your brand or
business.
Whether you're a small businesswithout a PR department or a
marketer looking to expand yourreach, public relations can help
you stand out in ways that adsand content alone cannot.
In this episode, pr expertMichelle Garrett shares why PR
(00:21):
is still essential, how toapproach it strategically and
how to measure its success.
If you've ever wondered how PRfits into your marketing
strategy, this is the episodefor you.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So stay tuned to this next episode of the your
Digital Marketing Coach podcast,Blogging, podcasting, vlogging,
TikToking, LinkedIn, Twitter,Facebook, Instagram, YouTube,
SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketingthere's a lot to cover.
(00:52):
Whether you're a marketingprofessional, entrepreneur or
business owner, you need someoneyou can rely on for expert
advice.
Good thing you've got Neil onyour side, because Neil Shafer
is your digital marketing coach,Helping you grow your business
(01:13):
with digital-first marketing,one episode at a time.
This is your digital marketingcoach and this is Neil Shafer.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Hey everybody, this is your digital marketing coach,
neil Shafer.
And this is Neil Schafer.
Hey everybody, this is yourdigital marketing coach, neil
Schafer, and welcome to episodenumber 397, getting closer to
the big 400.
So I was at Content MarketingWorld many moons ago and I saw
Michelle Garrett, who is today'sguest, speak on stage and I had
known about Michelle for sometime and knew that she was a on
(01:45):
stage.
And I had known about Michellefor some time and knew that she
was a PR expert, and I sat in onher speech and I thought it was
really, really greatinformation that a lot of
marketers need to know, becauseoften we misunderstand what PR
can bring to the table.
So we're going to dive intothis often overlooked but
incredibly valuable aspect ofmarketing.
(02:05):
Now, public relations is notmarketing, but if we were to put
the two on a Venn diagram, wecannot say there is no overlap.
We both operate in similarterritories, right?
Especially when we talk aboutsocial media and influencer
marketing.
So many marketers may havedabbled in PR or worked
alongside a PR team I know Ihave, but few truly understand
(02:26):
how to leverage it for brandgrowth.
So I'm thrilled to be joined byPR expert Michelle Garrett, who
will help us break down PR'srole in today's digital
landscape, from media relationsto thought leadership and even
the impact of AI.
Michelle shares practicalinsights for businesses of all
sizes.
Whether you're a solo marketer,part of a small business or
leading a larger team, thisepisode will help you see PR in
(02:48):
a new light and understand howit can work alongside content,
marketing and social media alltogether to elevate your brand.
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You're listening to your digital marketing coach.
This is Neil Schaefer.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Digital Marketing Coach.
This is Neil Schaefer.
Hey everybody, this is NeilSchaefer and welcome to another
edition of the your DigitalMarketing Coach podcast.
Today we're going to be talkingabout PR, and I know it's
something that maybe a lot ofmarketers know about.
A lot of marketers might havedabbled in If you're lucky to be
(03:24):
in a big enough organizationwhere you have a public
relations department.
I'm sure there's a lot ofcollaboration that goes on.
But PR and especially assomeone who just published a
book, pr still has incrediblevalue and, I believe, incredible
opportunities for marketers,and I'm on my own journey to
learn more about this and Icouldn't think of anyone better
to invite on this podcast thanMichelle Garrett.
(03:46):
Michelle is an absolute PRexpert.
I had the opportunity to knownher for many years, had the
opportunity to meet her inperson at Content Marketing
World, where I saw her speak,and, yeah, she's going to school
us on what marketers need toknow about PR.
So, without further ado,michelle, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Hello, neil, thanks for having me and
congratulations on your new book.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Thank you very much.
It's an honor to have you onand, as I start, with all my
guests, I know what you do.
Most everyone listening may notknow what you do, but also, how
did you get into PR?
Is this something that you weredoing before social media?
You are a traditional trainedpublicist, or what's your
stories that we get a betteridea about your background?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Sure, well, I really started as a writer, my love of
writing and my background is inwriting.
I have a journalism degree andthat was really my entrance, I
guess, into PR because when Iwrote throughout my high school,
college career and just alwaysloved it.
But then you know, like what amI going to do with that?
(04:51):
Beyond, you know, writing Isthere more I could do?
So PR seemed like a great fitbecause you get to work in so
many different industries andit's not the same every day.
There's something differentgoing on every day.
So, yeah, I've been doing thisa long time and it has changed
along the way.
Of course, social media hascome into play and content
(05:12):
marketing, and I feel like thosethree all go really well
together.
So, own media being content,shared media being social, and
then the earned media being PR.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Awesome.
So you began as a writer butyou decided not to write a lot
of books like I have.
But I'm assuming that, with PR,writing is one of those core
skills that you need to have tobe successful in PR.
I'm assuming, would you say,with social media content
marketing, the shift to videoand even podcasting, with social
(05:45):
media content marketing, theshift to video and even
podcasting, would you say,that's still true today.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I think writing is a foundational skill for just
about any business professionalto be very you know, just
upfront about it.
I think it's really importantbecause writing is thinking and,
to me, to organize what's inyour head.
It's good to get it out and getit on paper.
Now, of course, there are a lotof different mediums, as you
(06:08):
mentioned, with audio, withpodcasting, video is huge, but I
still feel like writing isalways going to play a role in
that, and it is my first love.
I would write even if I wasn'tbeing paid to do it for clients.
I would probably always bewriting anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So I need to ask you and these conversations often
take on their own organic life,as you can imagine AI,
generative AI and I'm sure everytime you speak you get asked
about, as do I but since youtalked about that core writing
as being the skill thateverybody needs, whether it's PR
, marketing or business ingeneral, when you look at
(06:49):
AI-generated content, when youyourself experiment with
ChachiBT or with your clients,what is the advice you're giving
them vis-a-vis writing andleveraging AI generative AI to
replace or supplement orcomplement or ideate that
writing?
What is your current advice forthose listening?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Well, I am kind of a purist, I'll be honest.
I'm not saying you shouldn'tuse AI at all, but for me, the
messy first draft and theediting process is really where
I work out.
You know what I really amtrying to say.
Maybe I have an idea, eitherfor my own blog or for a
client's you know contributedarticle or whatever it is, but I
(07:27):
really have to get in there andkind of mess around with it,
and that's why I feel like, ifyou are letting AI do that for
you, what are you learning fromthat?
How are you growing from that?
And that's really important tome.
I know it's not as important toeveryone, but I think critical
thinking skills and really notletting go of that the core of
that process is pretty important.
(07:47):
Now I will say for clients thatyou know want to use generative
AI to generate responses, say,they email you some questions
for an article they're workingon, they want to put you in
(08:08):
there as a source and you usethe chatbot to generate the
answers and then send that backto them.
That's not a great idea.
Not only can they tell and ithurts your credibility, but
sometimes the chatbot isplagiarizing from something
someone else has said so, thenit doesn't even look like it's
your original thought fromsomething someone else has said
so then it doesn't even looklike it's your original thought.
So I did say be a littlecareful there.
That's one thing I would say.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I've always thought, michelle I'm glad you brought
that up, because I've alwaysthought this far in.
I mean, it's only been twoyears since ChachiBT emerged,
but it's really prevalent outthere, and especially in social
media especially.
I know that there are toolsthat specialize in giving you
comments.
So I get these comments on mysocial media posts and there are
certain patterns, so I get.
I'm just curious, is it just meor do you think, especially in
(08:52):
media relations, michelle, whatyou're saying is that
journalists, people in media,are really tuned in and they get
.
When you're using AI and,michelle, it almost reminds me
of Google's recent changes wherethey're like, be more personal,
it's okay.
They're not saying don't use AI, but if you're not talking
about your personal experience,which AI really can't talk about
(09:13):
unless you feed it to anotherstory, so would you say that's
like a similar analogy thatyou're not really fooling
anybody today if you're tryingto a hundred percent rely on AI
for your responses?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, I mean, and there's so much content and
you're trying to stand out, andif you sound like everyone else
which is what using AI to writefor you kind of does how is that
helpful?
How does that differentiate you?
And that's one of the thingsthat I work with clients on.
One of the core things we needto do is try to differentiate
them from all the other playersin the space, and AI is not
(09:46):
going to help us with that.
I mean, now there are instanceslike okay, so AI-based search,
like perplexity, for example, orsomething like that, as more
people use that.
I think for PR, that's kind ofgood news, because clients will
want to show up everywhere.
They won't just care about theWall Street Journal, they'll
want to show up in the tradejournals.
They will want to show upeverywhere.
They won't just care about theWall Street Journal, they'll
want to show up in the tradejournals, they'll want to show
up in industry publications,something like that.
(10:09):
So they really want to beeverywhere, and so I think
that's good news for PR.
But I think, as PR people, wehave to be somewhat open-minded.
I know I have been at times alittle hesitant about AI, but I
think we need to keep an openmind about how we can help
clients position themselves inthis new age of AI-based search.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, it's funny.
I mentioned before we startedhitting the record, I've been
writing books and I actuallypublished two books over the
last few weeks.
That's another story and I'mworking on two more and I've
been really honing in on variouspodcasts and YouTube resources
for writers, especiallynonfiction writers.
So I do understand that puristperspective which, in the
writing community, is stillthere, Although even I see the
(10:54):
writing community slowly openingup to some aspects of AI, but
definitely not as far as a lotof marketers that I know.
But these are all really reallygood reminders that, at the end
of the day, there arealgorithms and there are people
that will read this AI generatedcontent.
Does it resonate with them ornot?
And that really is the keything, now that everybody can
create as much content as theywant.
(11:15):
As you said, ai content does notdifferentiate you by definition
, right?
So on that note and you beganto talk about sort of you know
the PR perspective on AI I wantto go a little bit deeper into
what marketers in general maynot understand about PR.
Just what you talked about, howyour AI-generated content is
not going to push the needlewith journalists.
Let's take a step back andreally, if you can school us
(11:38):
that are listening on what arethe important things that we
need to understand about PR'svalue and how we might be able
to leverage it, especially ifyou're a smaller business, as I
said in the intro, that doesn'thave a dedicated PR department
and maybe not even a dedicatedpublicist.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean there's a huge difference between being
a big company like Apple.
That's the one I always use asan example.
Of course they have unlimitedresources.
They can have a big PR team andinternally they can hire as
many agencies as they want.
They can pay for as many toolsas they want.
I also wrote a book for, reallyfor the smaller guys.
So most of my clients are, say,500 employees or less, so
that's still a small business bydefinition.
(12:14):
You know of what a smallbusiness is, and so those folks
often have a one personmarketing team or a very small
marketing department.
They don't have anyonededicated to do PR, but it can
be really valuable to find aresource, a consultant or maybe
a smaller agency or something towork with to help you, because
there's a lot of things thatthey're doing.
For example, they're writingblog posts, they're writing
(12:36):
customer success stories, casestudies.
Those are sitting on theirwebsite, right, so some people
are probably seeing them.
Maybe sales is using them,maybe they're putting them on
social media.
That's great, promoting themthat way.
What else could you do?
You could take PR, for example,pitch them as earned media to a
trade publication, and thatwould get not really think about
, and it helps elevate you, youget more visibility, position
(12:58):
yourself as a thought leader inyour space, so on and so on.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So the great advice you know on that note, there are
, and this podcast really servesthe same audience that you
serve.
So you know that's bang ongreat advice.
Press releases so there'smarketers who think press
releases may not have much value, but they have STO value.
So I'd love to hear obviouslyindividually pitching trade
publications in your industrywith industry specific
(13:37):
information is really goldenadvice.
But for this general, let's putit out as a press release and
get more coverage and see whathappens.
Do you recommend your clientstoday to still do press releases
?
If you do, are you veryselective about it?
What's sort of the advice thatyou give today on that?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
That is a great question, Neil, because it comes
up a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Sure it does.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So I mean, okay, so let's break it down a little bit
.
So I do see value in pressreleases, and here is why
Because journalists will ask youfor the press release.
So in my mind, that's reallywhat you're writing a press
release for.
I know there are people thatwant to, you know, write them
for SEO and okay, that's notreally what they're for.
I mean, you might be able toserve both purposes with one but
(14:20):
and it's also not a sales tool,because when you go out, if you
just go to say but, and it'salso not a sales tool, because
when you go out, if you just goto say you go to PR Newswire,
just search the press releasefeed, you'll see a lot of press
releases are written like an ad,like a sales tool.
And that's not what a pressrelease is.
It's informational.
So of course you can quote yourCEO in there.
I mean, there is some marketing, you know, promotional, there
(14:40):
are things about it that can bethat way, but it shouldn't be
like, you know, we're having abig sale right now.
This is, you know, say, 50%.
You know that's not the pointof a press release at all.
So it's a to announce a product, a solution, a new hire, an
acquisition, a big major newcustomer or partner.
Maybe there are a lot ofreasons that to write one, but
there are also a lot of reasonsnot to write press release.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Gotcha.
So it sounds like similar topitching journalists.
I guess press release sort offits into that.
But it almost sounds a littlebit like and once again we were
talking about this before we hitthe record button this concept
of repurposing that you havethis content, you have thoughts,
you have IP and there's a worldof media out there and how do
you get it out to them?
And I guess a press release isone vehicle.
(15:26):
Obviously, directly pitchingjournalists is sort of another
direct way of doing it.
So one-to-one, one-to-many Onthis note let's take a little
bit further of we're the smallbusiness, the one-person
marketing team.
Where does PR then fit in?
We're doing social media, we'redoing content marketing.
How do we get PR, or how do wefit PR into the daily routine of
(15:48):
our marketing activities?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
if we see the value, yeah, I think that's a great
question too, because I think alot of times people are focused
on social.
Of course, content is a bigthing.
You, you write LinkedIn posts.
If you're in B2B, for example,they can help you write case
(16:20):
studies, they can interviewcustomers and write about their
experiences, and there's allkinds of things you could do
with your PR team in that way.
But then also in just ideas andcoming up with ways to get it
out there to different audiences, because what I see a lot of
times is that clients don't evenknow all the places they could
be putting their content orpromoting their content or
(16:41):
sharing their content.
Yes, of course, they're goingto blast it out on their social
media channels, and that's fine,that's good, but there's
probably more.
And when you bring the PRperson in, they're going to
think about that and they'regoing to look at what you
already have put together andthey're going to maybe what you
already have put together andthey're going to maybe hopefully
be able to come up with ideasabout what else you could do
(17:02):
with it.
You've already created it.
I saw a stat one time that youknow one piece of B2B content on
average costs, you know, like$3,000.
And that's a that's a statthat's probably a few years old
now.
So I mean, by the time you hire, you know you pay someone to
write it, edit it, you knowclean it up, and you know it's
just it's very time consumingand of course you know there's
money and time involved, so whynot be doing more with it?
Not every piece of content is afit for that, but there's a lot
(17:25):
that you could do.
And then I think those teamscan also leverage what PR is
doing right.
So if PR is writing a pressrelease about something, maybe
there's a blog post in therethat the content team could be
working on, and there'scertainly social media posts
that would probably roll out ofthat.
So I just I don't like to seeit siloed, I like to see them
collaborating.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Gotcha, so I'm sure you get asked this a lot.
When marketers are working oncontent or social media, they're
thinking in terms of a funnel.
They're thinking in terms ofcost per impression, cost per
click, website visits, leads,generated conversion, sales what
have you and PR is more of?
As you mentioned, whenmarketers are publishing their
(18:07):
content, they're only looking ata finite universe and there's a
greater universe of the public,especially when we think about
influential journalists andtrade publications that they
miss out on, where a PRprofessional brings that
perspective which can also helpimprove their content, their
social media.
How do your clients and I knowthat this is a big topic and I
read Brian Solis talk about this15 years ago, writing books
(18:30):
about PR but how do your clientsmeasure the ROI of PR,
especially when everything inmarketing seems really finitely
calculated and measured?
What would be your advice forthose listening that haven't
done PR but are interested andsee the potential positive
impact they can have?
Is it based on instances ofbeing picked up, of additional
(18:52):
they used to call them clips, Ibelieve, in the PR world Is it
more anecdotal or is theresomething that we're missing out
on because we don't understandhow PR works?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Again, a very good question, right, and it's not
easy to measure.
I will say that I think themistake a lot of times is okay.
So you're working with your PRteam internally or your external
resource, and you say, okay, wewant to know how this thing
performs.
And the PR team is like, okay,and they like, really, I mean,
if you don't have any data to goon, as in, what are you trying
(19:23):
to measure?
Who are you trying to reach?
What's the benchmark?
What have you done in the past?
Where are you now?
Like you've got to have somedata involved before you know,
like you have to know whatyou're going to measure.
And then you know PR is probablydoing things in tandem with
marketing, and so how is thatladdering up?
How does it all impact gettingsome new customers or
(19:45):
prospective new customers?
Or you know, like if you go toa trade show and your PR team is
promoting that, you're going tobe at the trade show and your
CEO is speaking at the tradeshow, and so there's probably a
lot that PR is doing to helpraise the visibility of that.
But at the end of the day, it'sgoing to be well.
How many you know badges did wescan, or how many you know
leads did we get, or like youknow, and PR's role in that
(20:07):
might not even be factored in.
So I feel like there's just notenough thought given to like
what are we measuring?
How are we measuring?
You know, it's just I don'tknow.
People say go measure, and thenPR is like oh, I don't know.
And then you know like so it's,it's kind of it's not a perfect
science, I guess.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I guess it almost sounds like what social media
has become, because social mediahas stopped becoming this major
generator of traffic, but it'ssomething because the public is
there you need to be active onand therefore, how do you
calculate the ROI of beingactive, of being in front of
people, when it's not generatingthat traffic?
And PR to me sounds verysimilar.
It's this additional, it's partof this infrastructure which
(20:49):
obviously is going to addadditional visibility, but how
much you put into it and how doyou measure what you take out of
it?
Well, how do you do that withsocial media or with other more
intangible types of marketingthat you need to be doing, or
with branding or a website?
I guess with a website redesignmaybe, see our conversion rate
optimization, what have you?
But for a B2B company, youmight not be able to do that.
So I guess in marketing there'sthe measurable, there's the
(21:10):
immeasurable and I'm sure you'vehad clients that have asked you
.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
You know details about that and I assume it's
it's well, did you know?
What did PR contribute to?
How big was that contribution?
What were the results?
And I'm assuming that's theonly way to go about measuring
it then, right, or are there anyother?
I also interview him, you know,quarterly, and we have a
conversation and he has told methat when he goes to an event
like a trade show, and he walksin, he's like everyone's, like
gosh.
We see you everywhere.
You know you're showing upeverywhere.
So that's, you know that'spowerful.
(21:49):
They know that that is wherethat's coming from.
And of course, you know it'snot like me doing all.
You know my client collaboratesvery closely with me and
without that collaboration Iwould not have as much success
for them.
So that's really important too.
I mean it's it's a partnershipand it does pay off for them and
they know that.
(22:09):
But they're not as concernedabout like hard numbers as they
are about buzz and just you know, they know they're showing up
and people are seeing it andpeople, you know, refer to it
and they, so that's how they,that's their measurement.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So Makes a lot of sense, and I've heard from other
companies like, yeah, they, youknow similar comments anecdotal
, but it does talk about thattop of mind sort of thought
leadership which, you know,advertising alone will not get
you there.
It takes a lot more than that,especially to be trusted, and
that, obviously, is what PRbrings in.
So I'm curious there's probablya lot of misconceptions that
(22:46):
marketers have about PR and Ithink I might've already talked
about some of them, but I'd loveto hear what are other things
that we should all know thatwe're totally getting wrong
about what PR does and the valueit brings.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times people are just
confused, Like they don't reallyunderstand what PR people do.
You know, what do you do allday?
Do you write press releases?
Is that all you do Like?
And it's not right.
So I mean, and it's you know,PR is not an ad, it's not paid,
it's earned media.
So I think they work welltogether if you can do both, but
(23:19):
you don't want to mistake onefor the other, and that's
something I see happening.
And the other thing is it takestime to do PR, to do earned
media.
So if you're in a hurry to getresults, you might want to
consider paid media.
You might want to buy an ad ora sponsored piece, for example.
So those are a couple of thingsthat I run into pretty often.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So for those listening that want to get
started, obviously reaching outto a PR consultant like yourself
is obviously a great way to getstarted and learn and get
coached.
But what are other sort offirst steps for those that
really haven't been engaging inPR?
What are some recommended firststeps that you would advise
them to get started on?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I think it's a really good idea if they can figure
out who they are trying to reach.
So what audiences are youtrying to get in front of?
And then, where are thoseaudiences spending time?
And then, what do you wannashare with them?
What's your goal doing PR?
Do you wanna be seen as athought leader in your space?
Do you want to educate thepublic about an issue, for
(24:15):
example, in the nonprofit world?
That might be a goal.
Do you just want your name onmore prospective customers?
You know shortlist, you knowwhat are you trying to achieve.
And then you know work with andtalk with your PR provider
about how they think you couldbest get there and make sure
that you listen to them and dowork, as you know, in a
(24:37):
collaborative way with them,because the last thing you want
to do is bring somebody in andthen just tell them to go.
You know, write a press release.
Maybe that's not the best thingand maybe your PR provider
would share that with you.
If you're open to hearing thatand you know, it's not always a
press release, it's not always apitch what else can we do?
What's the right thing to do?
(24:58):
So those are a couple of tips.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So I guess, based on that, the way that marketers
should be perceiving this isreally it's less about bottom of
the funnel, more about top ofthe funnel, generating demand,
generating brand awareness, sothat when you do advertise you
do have content.
It just gets that much morevisibility, has that much more
impact.
And therefore I'm assuming thenthere are stages in which it
(25:22):
might be more appropriate toinvest in PR rather than, if
you're just getting started, youmay not just generating your
core brand awareness and coredemand.
There's probably someinfrastructural marketing that
you need to do.
But do you find startups thatstart with PR versus marketing,
or is it always sort of intandem?
And are there phases of whichyou find companies you know
(25:44):
you're too early for PR or maybeyou're not too early?
Is there sort of a you know atiming as well that companies
should be aware of when thinkingabout investing in PR?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Wow, I could talk about this all day, but I worked
in Silicon Valley when Istarted my consulting practice.
Yeah.
So I worked with a lot ofstartups and a lot of them.
I think it was too early.
It's more of an issue now thanit used to be when I started
consulting, because if ajournalist has never heard of
you before, they're much lesslikely to write about you or,
(26:17):
you know, include you in a story.
Because unless you're doingsomething really unique and you
have differentiated yourself insome way, because they probably
just get bombarded with pitchesfrom you know many companies
they have never heard of, soyou're not really going to stand
out.
Now, if you're a manufacturingcompany with 50 years in the
business, you probably havethought leaders, you probably
(26:39):
have unique perspectives andways of doing things that you
can share.
So I think that is you know.
Obviously not every company is50 years old, that you know.
You don't have to be to do PR,but sometimes startups it is a
little bit too early and I'veseen them, you know, really
spend a lot of money and maybeit's just a little bit too early
.
You know, because you know Iyeah.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
So get your infrastructure in place first.
Yeah, I, I sense that, and I'veworked with brands where they
didn't have their own, theydidn't even have owned media,
but they were just spending lotsof money on Google
pay-per-click and well, anyway,we could talk about that.
But but yeah, in in digitalthreads, I do talk about how
this there's an order of thingswhen it comes to marketing, I
(27:31):
believe with PR as well.
So a few more questions beforewe end.
This has been extremelyeducational.
Thank you for know they justrebranded because I had to
correct the URL of my book.
Is that still, if you want toget started with trying to get
your name out there and connectwith journalists, would that
still be the number one resourceyou recommend, or are there
other resources out there thatwe should know about?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I think there's a place for it.
I think Peter Shankman calls itsource of sources now so, but
okay, so I call that reactive PRand I feel like companies
really should be investing inproactive PR.
Of course you can have thereactive in there, you know, as
an additional, you know way toyou know, get your name out
(28:10):
there.
But it's really hard again,because those reporters are
putting out the query and thenthey're probably getting who
knows how many responses.
So, unless you're reallystanding out, and again, if
you're generating a responsewith a chat bot, you're not
going to stand out Spoiler alert.
But instead, if you arethinking about and here's
another thing when companies puttogether a media list or
(28:31):
agencies do it for you a lot oftimes they'll put hundreds of
media outlets and contacts,journalists, editors, on that
list.
You don't need hundreds, youneed maybe 15, 20 that you're
really interested in getting infront of.
So I would do some research onthat.
And you don't even need a mediadatabase.
You could just go online orjust ask your customers, or
maybe you already know whatthey're looking at, where
(28:52):
they're looking for information.
Sparktoro is another tool youcould use.
They have a free and paidversion, so just look for some
places where you would want toshow up, where you would be in
front of your audience and maybeapproach it that way, because
it's not about how many pitchesyou're sending out.
It's about are you pitching theright publications, the right
(29:12):
contacts, the right editors,journalists and then what are
you saying when you send thepitch out?
Is it a fit for their audienceand what they write or produce
stories about?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
So reverse engineering the process then and
I love that mention of Harrowbeing, you know, reactive PR,
because, yeah, it's not like theold days where you know you are
only one of a few peopleresponding Anyone and everyone
is doing it, and there arepeople on Fiverr that'll do it
for you.
What have you?
So whether they're going to beeffective or not obviously is in
question.
So it almost sounds likepinpointing those key strategic
(29:44):
media outlets, journalists, andthen really try to develop a
relationship with them to thepoint where you understand what
they're looking for in a pitchand only contact them when you
have a value-worthy pitch, andobviously PR that's what they do
is they understand how thoserelationships work and they can
accelerate that, make it mosteffective.
But, in a nutshell, is thatbasically what you're
(30:04):
recommending, then, in lieu ofusing a Herald service?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, and I think once you have that relationship
as a trusted source for aneditor or journalist or reporter
, they might come to youproactively.
And that happens with myclients.
I mean, I have thoserelationships established and so
they'll say you know what we'relooking for, a source for the
story we're doing on conveyorsand manufacturing.
Does your client have, you know, some comments they could share
(30:28):
and they'll send me somequestions and you know.
So it really, once you get somemomentum going, it can be a
very robust program but you dohave require some legwork to get
off the ground.
But I think then you buildmomentum and you start to see
results and you understand thatyou know over time it's not
overnight.
I'd say, you know, give itthree to six months if you're
(30:49):
just starting out, for example.
Sometimes people ask me thatquestion how long does it take?
Well it's, you know you've gotto give it a little time.
So yeah, how long?
Speaker 1 (30:56):
does it take?
Well, it's, you know, you gotto give it a little time.
So, yeah, how long will it takefor your business to ramp up to
?
I mean it's?
It's the same general question,right?
We're not magicians here, folks.
Sorry, you know, I want to endon.
We talked about PR'srelationship with content
marketing, social mediamarketing, how it can really,
you know, expand everythingyou're doing in a very natural
way, when, done right, could bevery effective.
Earn media with the emergenceof influencers and content
(31:20):
creators in a creator economy.
I obviously wrote the Age ofInfluence, all about influencer
marketing.
So I have to ask you thisquestion but when you look at
media outreach now, or PRactivities now, compared to 15
years ago, I'm assuming thatinfluencers slash content
creators, whatever you call themthese days.
I'm assuming that they havesome role.
I'm curious from yourperspective what role, if any,
(31:45):
do they have and what advice,from a PR perspective, you might
be giving our audience adviceon how to best engage with them?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, well, I mean, I think it has to be authentic.
That's always my thing.
I've never understood howpaying somebody millions of
dollars to say they like and useyour product when it's clear
that you know you paid them todo that and they probably in
their day to day are not usingyour product, that's very, I
mean, that doesn't resonate,especially with a younger
(32:13):
generation.
You know, I have a high schoolkid and a young kid in their 20s
and so, like that, they don't,they know, like what you're
doing there.
So, and I think that that's,you know, a big tell right.
So you have to be aware of whatis authentic.
So maybe there's somebody outthere who talks about your
product, who has a following,that would be a better person to
(32:35):
engage as an influencer.
I would say, if they're alreadya fan and a be a better person
to engage as an influencer.
I would say, if they're alreadya fan and a follower of your
brand, maybe look there and see.
Maybe it's not the person thatyou know has an agent and has
the biggest following.
Maybe it's, you know, a smaller, a micro-influencer, for
example.
They might have morecredibility and be, you know,
spending time with the peoplethat you want to reach.
(32:56):
Anyway, they're already intheir community, you know, on
social media or whatever.
So, so.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I take it that from your PR activities then you
don't you focus more on thetraditional media side rather
than so.
You know, it's funny becausewhen social media marketing
started, michelle and we and weturned back the clock it was
often owned by PR departments,for those that remember the
glorious days of Radiant 6.
And anyway, we can go back inhistory and over time that's
become sort of where socialmedia marketing is.
(33:23):
I've seen influencerrelationships, and maybe it's
more with B2B companies wherethey have established people
that are not necessarily part ofmarketing.
And there are some companieswhere PR especially B2B like I
said, not necessarily B2C, butit sounds like what you're
seeing and the advice you'regiving and the questions you're
getting from your clients as aPR consultant really aren't
(33:43):
around the influencer side.
It's more of the general mediaside.
Then Is that a correctassumption?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
That is correct.
I'm not going to say that wewould never consider working
with influencers, but that's notwhat my focus would be,
necessarily, although, again, wecan always do some research,
use SparkToro, look on LinkedIn,see who in their space might be
someone that they couldconsider working with, or maybe
(34:09):
even just contacting somebody tocontribute to an article or
something we're working on.
You know, in that way, and itwouldn't even necessarily be a
paid thing, it would just be anatural fit for you know,
whatever we happen to be talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Makes a lot of sense.
Now, you've mentioned SparkToroa few times, and on another
podcast that used to run the Ageof Influence, we actually
interviewed Rand Fishkin, sovery familiar with the tool, I
know it's an amazing tool.
A lot of people talk about it.
I still really haven'tleveraged it as part of what I
do.
So, if you can describe, I'massuming that you use SparkToro
to find out your audience, whatother media they're consuming,
(34:43):
what other podcasts they listento, websites they go to, and
from that, just sort of betterunderstand not only who your
target audience is, but also, ifyou want to target sources of
information as far as the PRcampaign, you have a better idea
of what those sources are.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Is that pretty much how you use SparkToro, or are
there other features or otherthings that we're missing out on
?
Yeah, no, that pretty much sumsit up.
I mean, I get nervous when Isee a smaller company with a
very limited marketing budgetwhich PR sits under the
marketing budget they'respending thousands of dollars on
a big media database.
And I'm not saying again ifyou're a big company, if you're
a Fortune 500 company, if you'republicly traded, you need to
(35:22):
issue your news on a wireservice and you need to have a
database, probably, and youmight need a big agency and an
internal team.
That's all fine and there'snothing at all wrong with that.
But for the smaller companieswho are, you know, struggling or
just have a limited budget, Ithink that's a little bit of a
waste of money.
I would rather see them usingthat money to hire talent in the
form of a consultant or asmaller boutique agency or
something to help them gettraction, and one of the tools
(35:44):
that I would recommend, versus abig media database, might be a
tool like SparkToro, because youcan do research.
They have what they call hiddengems in there, and so it would
be additional things that youmight not have thought of and of
course he talks about howthey've put that together, how
it, you know, pulls thoseresources out for you, and I
(36:09):
just think it's a little bit ofa you know, it's not quite as
crazy and expensive and hard touse or figure out as a media
database.
That's just another resourcethat you might look to.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
It's funny, I've never really considered a media
database and when I interviewedRan and we also talked about
BuzzSumo, which you know quasisimilar tool like well, like,
what do we call this tool?
We don't even know, but we knowit has a lot of value.
So, media database, that willbe the tool.
That will be the term that Iwill use.
So great advice, michelle.
You know, from a marketerperspective of hopefully
everybody else listening haslearned a ton from you.
(36:37):
Is there anything that I didn'task you that I should have, or
any other advice you want topart with for this audience that
once they want to achieveresults in their business and
they want it fast and they seedigital as a way to help them do
that, and I think that thisconversation has generated
(36:57):
probably new interest in PR forthem.
You know, what else is therethat they should know that we
didn't cover, if anything?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Yeah Well, I mean, give it time if you decide to
move forward Again.
If it is overnight resultsyou're looking for, I would say
you might be disappointed if youlook to PR only because you
know, first of all, it's notguaranteed, it is earned media
and so you know we willcertainly do our best to get you
results as quickly as possible,but you also play a role in
(37:25):
that, so you have to be bringingthings to the table to help us,
help you and, of course, yes,the Jerry Maguire helped me help
you.
Yes, we use that sometimes totalk about it, but, like you
know, we need to know, like weneed your thought leaders, we
need your news and stories, weneed to know what's going on
behind the scenes.
You know, don't?
You know, work with us as apartner and don't just hire a PR
resource and then walk away andsay, okay, well, you know, we
(37:48):
did the search, we hired someone, now it's all in there.
You know, all in their handsnow.
Like no, you need to be involvedin that and certainly you don't
want to work with somebody whoyou need to hold their hand.
I'm not saying that, but you doneed to be talking regularly.
I meet with clients at leastonce a month to talk about what
they have going on, what'scoming up.
So you need to be sharing andtalking and developing a
(38:10):
relationship with your PRprovider and you want to know
who you're going to be workingwith on a day-to-day basis when
you do decide to move forwardwith PR.
So that would be another thingI would say.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Great advice.
So it's not like you're hiringan ad agency and you're just
throwing it over the wall.
It requires a collaborativeapproach to be successful, like
most anything in marketing,actually.
So I couldn't agree with youmore, Michelle.
You've been very generous withyour time, your advice.
If people want to reach out toyou, ask you questions,
potentially hire you, whereshould we send them?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
My website, michellegarrettcom, would be a
great place to start.
Of course I'm on LinkedIn and,yeah, those are two places you
could find me.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, and I'm sure you've said this before, but
it's two L's, two R's and twoT's, so don't get that spelling
wrong.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
And I know you're well by the time this is
published, you will have alreadyspoken at Content Marketing
World, but I know that you're aregular there, so look out for
Michelle on the Speaking Circuit.
And, michelle, thank you somuch for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
(39:15):
I should say this podcast, thisepisode, included.
We teach tactical andstrategical things, but often
the things that I'm teachinghere and what comes out in the
conversations is just a mindsetshift.
Just looking at something thatyou always thought of as A and
thinking of it in a new light,as B and with the new thought
(39:36):
process, unlocks all sorts ofopportunities.
That's sort of my role in theworld.
You should know my new motto iseducate and empower, and I
think that really reallysummarizes everything I do here,
whether it's my podcast, mybooks, my speaking, my teaching
and yes, if you didn't know andyou wanted to get my latest
advice, I have two books that Ijust published in, one in late
(39:58):
September, or I should saymid-September, and one in early
October Maximizing LinkedIn forBusiness Growth.
And then a book, and thatencompasses all of my LinkedIn
advice, obviously, and then abook that encompasses all of my
digital marketing advice,including content marketing,
social media marketing,influencer marketing, seo, email
marketing, ai marketing, thewhole bit.
It is called Digital Threads.
You can find all of these booksnot just my latest two, but the
(40:22):
other four of written six booksall on Amazon, wherever you buy
books.
If you want a shortcut, checkout Digital Threads by going to
neilschafercom slashdigitalthreadsamazon.
All right, well, that's it foranother hopefully insightful
episode of the your DigitalMarketing Coach podcast.
If you haven't subscribedalready, I hope you will,
because I have some other greatinterviews coming up and I like
(40:43):
to cover a variety of topics.
As my friends on DealCasters,who I just appeared on their
podcast and they read digitalthreads and they go Neil, you
messed me up and what they meantby that was I give them ideas
they hadn't thought of.
I challenge them to see thingsin a new light and grow, and so
I want to make sure I do thatwith you.
I bring in a variety of guests.
(41:04):
This is not one single niche.
Digital marketing is broad, andif, for every 10 episodes, if
there's one or two that reallyvibe with you and you find
tactical, strategic, insightfuladvice that levels your brand
and gives you the ROI ofspending 30 minutes to an hour
together, then I have served myrole as your digital marketing
coach.
So this is Neil Schaefersigning off.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
You've been listening to your digital marketing coach
.
Questions, comments, requests,links go to
podcastneilschafercom.
Get the show notes to this and200 plus podcast episodes at
neilschafercom to tap into the400 plus blog posts that Neil
has published to support yourbusiness.
(41:44):
While you're there, check outNeil's digital first group
coaching membership community Ifyou or your business needs a
little helping hand.
See you next time on yourdigital marketing coach.
PR is often misunderstood in the marketing
world, but it can be a gamechanger for your brand or
business.
Whether you're a small businesswithout a PR department or a
marketer looking to expand yourreach, public relations can help
you stand out in ways that adsand content alone cannot.
In this episode, pr expertMichelle Garrett shares why PR
(00:21):
is still essential, how toapproach it strategically and
how to measure its success.
If you've ever wondered how PRfits into your marketing
strategy, this is the episodefor you.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So stay tuned to this next episode of the your
Digital Marketing Coach podcast,Blogging, podcasting, vlogging,
TikToking, LinkedIn, Twitter,Facebook, Instagram, YouTube,
SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketingthere's a lot to cover.
(00:52):
Whether you're a marketingprofessional, entrepreneur or
business owner, you need someoneyou can rely on for expert
advice.
Good thing you've got Neil onyour side, because Neil Shafer
is your digital marketing coach,Helping you grow your business
(01:13):
with digital-first marketing,one episode at a time.
This is your digital marketingcoach and this is Neil Shafer.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Hey everybody, this is your digital marketing coach,
neil Shafer.
And this is Neil Schafer.
Hey everybody, this is yourdigital marketing coach, neil
Schafer, and welcome to episodenumber 397, getting closer to
the big 400.
So I was at Content MarketingWorld many moons ago and I saw
Michelle Garrett, who is today'sguest, speak on stage and I had
known about Michelle for sometime and knew that she was a on
(01:45):
stage.
And I had known about Michellefor some time and knew that she
was a PR expert, and I sat in onher speech and I thought it was
really, really greatinformation that a lot of
marketers need to know, becauseoften we misunderstand what PR
can bring to the table.
So we're going to dive intothis often overlooked but
incredibly valuable aspect ofmarketing.
(02:05):
Now, public relations is notmarketing, but if we were to put
the two on a Venn diagram, wecannot say there is no overlap.
We both operate in similarterritories, right?
Especially when we talk aboutsocial media and influencer
marketing.
So many marketers may havedabbled in PR or worked
alongside a PR team I know Ihave, but few truly understand
(02:26):
how to leverage it for brandgrowth.
So I'm thrilled to be joined byPR expert Michelle Garrett, who
will help us break down PR'srole in today's digital
landscape, from media relationsto thought leadership and even
the impact of AI.
Michelle shares practicalinsights for businesses of all
sizes.
Whether you're a solo marketer,part of a small business or
leading a larger team, thisepisode will help you see PR in
(02:48):
a new light and understand howit can work alongside content,
marketing and social media alltogether to elevate your brand.
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You're listening to your digital marketing coach.
This is Neil Schaefer.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Digital Marketing Coach.
This is Neil Schaefer.
Hey everybody, this is NeilSchaefer and welcome to another
edition of the your DigitalMarketing Coach podcast.
Today we're going to be talkingabout PR, and I know it's
something that maybe a lot ofmarketers know about.
A lot of marketers might havedabbled in If you're lucky to be
(03:24):
in a big enough organizationwhere you have a public
relations department.
I'm sure there's a lot ofcollaboration that goes on.
But PR and especially assomeone who just published a
book, pr still has incrediblevalue and, I believe, incredible
opportunities for marketers,and I'm on my own journey to
learn more about this and Icouldn't think of anyone better
to invite on this podcast thanMichelle Garrett.
(03:46):
Michelle is an absolute PRexpert.
I had the opportunity to knownher for many years, had the
opportunity to meet her inperson at Content Marketing
World, where I saw her speak,and, yeah, she's going to school
us on what marketers need toknow about PR.
So, without further ado,michelle, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Hello, neil, thanks for having me and
congratulations on your new book.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Thank you very much.
It's an honor to have you onand, as I start, with all my
guests, I know what you do.
Most everyone listening may notknow what you do, but also, how
did you get into PR?
Is this something that you weredoing before social media?
You are a traditional trainedpublicist, or what's your
stories that we get a betteridea about your background?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Sure, well, I really started as a writer, my love of
writing and my background is inwriting.
I have a journalism degree andthat was really my entrance, I
guess, into PR because when Iwrote throughout my high school,
college career and just alwaysloved it.
But then you know, like what amI going to do with that?
(04:51):
Beyond, you know, writing Isthere more I could do?
So PR seemed like a great fitbecause you get to work in so
many different industries andit's not the same every day.
There's something differentgoing on every day.
So, yeah, I've been doing thisa long time and it has changed
along the way.
Of course, social media hascome into play and content
(05:12):
marketing, and I feel like thosethree all go really well
together.
So, own media being content,shared media being social, and
then the earned media being PR.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Awesome.
So you began as a writer butyou decided not to write a lot
of books like I have.
But I'm assuming that, with PR,writing is one of those core
skills that you need to have tobe successful in PR.
I'm assuming, would you say,with social media content
marketing, the shift to videoand even podcasting, with social
(05:45):
media content marketing, theshift to video and even
podcasting, would you say,that's still true today.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I think writing is a foundational skill for just
about any business professionalto be very you know, just
upfront about it.
I think it's really importantbecause writing is thinking and,
to me, to organize what's inyour head.
It's good to get it out and getit on paper.
Now, of course, there are a lotof different mediums, as you
(06:08):
mentioned, with audio, withpodcasting, video is huge, but I
still feel like writing isalways going to play a role in
that, and it is my first love.
I would write even if I wasn'tbeing paid to do it for clients.
I would probably always bewriting anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So I need to ask you and these conversations often
take on their own organic life,as you can imagine AI,
generative AI and I'm sure everytime you speak you get asked
about, as do I but since youtalked about that core writing
as being the skill thateverybody needs, whether it's PR
, marketing or business ingeneral, when you look at
(06:49):
AI-generated content, when youyourself experiment with
ChachiBT or with your clients,what is the advice you're giving
them vis-a-vis writing andleveraging AI generative AI to
replace or supplement orcomplement or ideate that
writing?
What is your current advice forthose listening?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Well, I am kind of a purist, I'll be honest.
I'm not saying you shouldn'tuse AI at all, but for me, the
messy first draft and theediting process is really where
I work out.
You know what I really amtrying to say.
Maybe I have an idea, eitherfor my own blog or for a
client's you know contributedarticle or whatever it is, but I
(07:27):
really have to get in there andkind of mess around with it,
and that's why I feel like, ifyou are letting AI do that for
you, what are you learning fromthat?
How are you growing from that?
And that's really important tome.
I know it's not as important toeveryone, but I think critical
thinking skills and really notletting go of that the core of
that process is pretty important.
(07:47):
Now I will say for clients thatyou know want to use generative
AI to generate responses, say,they email you some questions
for an article they're workingon, they want to put you in
(08:08):
there as a source and you usethe chatbot to generate the
answers and then send that backto them.
That's not a great idea.
Not only can they tell and ithurts your credibility, but
sometimes the chatbot isplagiarizing from something
someone else has said so, thenit doesn't even look like it's
your original thought fromsomething someone else has said
so then it doesn't even looklike it's your original thought.
So I did say be a littlecareful there.
That's one thing I would say.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I've always thought, michelle I'm glad you brought
that up, because I've alwaysthought this far in.
I mean, it's only been twoyears since ChachiBT emerged,
but it's really prevalent outthere, and especially in social
media especially.
I know that there are toolsthat specialize in giving you
comments.
So I get these comments on mysocial media posts and there are
certain patterns, so I get.
I'm just curious, is it just meor do you think, especially in
(08:52):
media relations, michelle, whatyou're saying is that
journalists, people in media,are really tuned in and they get
.
When you're using AI and,michelle, it almost reminds me
of Google's recent changes wherethey're like, be more personal,
it's okay.
They're not saying don't use AI, but if you're not talking
about your personal experience,which AI really can't talk about
(09:13):
unless you feed it to anotherstory, so would you say that's
like a similar analogy thatyou're not really fooling
anybody today if you're tryingto a hundred percent rely on AI
for your responses?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, I mean, and there's so much content and
you're trying to stand out, andif you sound like everyone else
which is what using AI to writefor you kind of does how is that
helpful?
How does that differentiate you?
And that's one of the thingsthat I work with clients on.
One of the core things we needto do is try to differentiate
them from all the other playersin the space, and AI is not
(09:46):
going to help us with that.
I mean, now there are instanceslike okay, so AI-based search,
like perplexity, for example, orsomething like that, as more
people use that.
I think for PR, that's kind ofgood news, because clients will
want to show up everywhere.
They won't just care about theWall Street Journal, they'll
want to show up in the tradejournals.
They will want to show upeverywhere.
They won't just care about theWall Street Journal, they'll
want to show up in the tradejournals, they'll want to show
up in industry publications,something like that.
(10:09):
So they really want to beeverywhere, and so I think
that's good news for PR.
But I think, as PR people, wehave to be somewhat open-minded.
I know I have been at times alittle hesitant about AI, but I
think we need to keep an openmind about how we can help
clients position themselves inthis new age of AI-based search.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, it's funny.
I mentioned before we startedhitting the record, I've been
writing books and I actuallypublished two books over the
last few weeks.
That's another story and I'mworking on two more and I've
been really honing in on variouspodcasts and YouTube resources
for writers, especiallynonfiction writers.
So I do understand that puristperspective which, in the
writing community, is stillthere, Although even I see the
(10:54):
writing community slowly openingup to some aspects of AI, but
definitely not as far as a lotof marketers that I know.
But these are all really reallygood reminders that, at the end
of the day, there arealgorithms and there are people
that will read this AI generatedcontent.
Does it resonate with them ornot?
And that really is the keything, now that everybody can
create as much content as theywant.
(11:15):
As you said, ai content does notdifferentiate you by definition
, right?
So on that note and you beganto talk about sort of you know
the PR perspective on AI I wantto go a little bit deeper into
what marketers in general maynot understand about PR.
Just what you talked about, howyour AI-generated content is
not going to push the needlewith journalists.
Let's take a step back andreally, if you can school us
(11:38):
that are listening on what arethe important things that we
need to understand about PR'svalue and how we might be able
to leverage it, especially ifyou're a smaller business, as I
said in the intro, that doesn'thave a dedicated PR department
and maybe not even a dedicatedpublicist.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean there's a huge difference between being
a big company like Apple.
That's the one I always use asan example.
Of course they have unlimitedresources.
They can have a big PR team andinternally they can hire as
many agencies as they want.
They can pay for as many toolsas they want.
I also wrote a book for, reallyfor the smaller guys.
So most of my clients are, say,500 employees or less, so
that's still a small business bydefinition.
(12:14):
You know of what a smallbusiness is, and so those folks
often have a one personmarketing team or a very small
marketing department.
They don't have anyonededicated to do PR, but it can
be really valuable to find aresource, a consultant or maybe
a smaller agency or something towork with to help you, because
there's a lot of things thatthey're doing.
For example, they're writingblog posts, they're writing
(12:36):
customer success stories, casestudies.
Those are sitting on theirwebsite, right, so some people
are probably seeing them.
Maybe sales is using them,maybe they're putting them on
social media.
That's great, promoting themthat way.
What else could you do?
You could take PR, for example,pitch them as earned media to a
trade publication, and thatwould get not really think about
, and it helps elevate you, youget more visibility, position
(12:58):
yourself as a thought leader inyour space, so on and so on.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So the great advice you know on that note, there are
, and this podcast really servesthe same audience that you
serve.
So you know that's bang ongreat advice.
Press releases so there'smarketers who think press
releases may not have much value, but they have STO value.
So I'd love to hear obviouslyindividually pitching trade
publications in your industrywith industry specific
(13:37):
information is really goldenadvice.
But for this general, let's putit out as a press release and
get more coverage and see whathappens.
Do you recommend your clientstoday to still do press releases
?
If you do, are you veryselective about it?
What's sort of the advice thatyou give today on that?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
That is a great question, Neil, because it comes
up a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Sure it does.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So I mean, okay, so let's break it down a little bit
.
So I do see value in pressreleases, and here is why
Because journalists will ask youfor the press release.
So in my mind, that's reallywhat you're writing a press
release for.
I know there are people thatwant to, you know, write them
for SEO and okay, that's notreally what they're for.
I mean, you might be able toserve both purposes with one but
(14:20):
and it's also not a sales tool,because when you go out, if you
just go to say but, and it'salso not a sales tool, because
when you go out, if you just goto say you go to PR Newswire,
just search the press releasefeed, you'll see a lot of press
releases are written like an ad,like a sales tool.
And that's not what a pressrelease is.
It's informational.
So of course you can quote yourCEO in there.
I mean, there is some marketing, you know, promotional, there
(14:40):
are things about it that can bethat way, but it shouldn't be
like, you know, we're having abig sale right now.
This is, you know, say, 50%.
You know that's not the pointof a press release at all.
So it's a to announce a product, a solution, a new hire, an
acquisition, a big major newcustomer or partner.
Maybe there are a lot ofreasons that to write one, but
there are also a lot of reasonsnot to write press release.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Gotcha.
So it sounds like similar topitching journalists.
I guess press release sort offits into that.
But it almost sounds a littlebit like and once again we were
talking about this before we hitthe record button this concept
of repurposing that you havethis content, you have thoughts,
you have IP and there's a worldof media out there and how do
you get it out to them?
And I guess a press release isone vehicle.
(15:26):
Obviously, directly pitchingjournalists is sort of another
direct way of doing it.
So one-to-one, one-to-many Onthis note let's take a little
bit further of we're the smallbusiness, the one-person
marketing team.
Where does PR then fit in?
We're doing social media, we'redoing content marketing.
How do we get PR, or how do wefit PR into the daily routine of
(15:48):
our marketing activities?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
if we see the value, yeah, I think that's a great
question too, because I think alot of times people are focused
on social.
Of course, content is a bigthing.
You, you write LinkedIn posts.
If you're in B2B, for example,they can help you write case
(16:20):
studies, they can interviewcustomers and write about their
experiences, and there's allkinds of things you could do
with your PR team in that way.
But then also in just ideas andcoming up with ways to get it
out there to different audiences, because what I see a lot of
times is that clients don't evenknow all the places they could
be putting their content orpromoting their content or
(16:41):
sharing their content.
Yes, of course, they're goingto blast it out on their social
media channels, and that's fine,that's good, but there's
probably more.
And when you bring the PRperson in, they're going to
think about that and they'regoing to look at what you
already have put together andthey're going to maybe what you
already have put together andthey're going to maybe hopefully
be able to come up with ideasabout what else you could do
(17:02):
with it.
You've already created it.
I saw a stat one time that youknow one piece of B2B content on
average costs, you know, like$3,000.
And that's a that's a statthat's probably a few years old
now.
So I mean, by the time you hire, you know you pay someone to
write it, edit it, you knowclean it up, and you know it's
just it's very time consumingand of course you know there's
money and time involved, so whynot be doing more with it?
Not every piece of content is afit for that, but there's a lot
(17:25):
that you could do.
And then I think those teamscan also leverage what PR is
doing right.
So if PR is writing a pressrelease about something, maybe
there's a blog post in therethat the content team could be
working on, and there'scertainly social media posts
that would probably roll out ofthat.
So I just I don't like to seeit siloed, I like to see them
collaborating.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Gotcha, so I'm sure you get asked this a lot.
When marketers are working oncontent or social media, they're
thinking in terms of a funnel.
They're thinking in terms ofcost per impression, cost per
click, website visits, leads,generated conversion, sales what
have you and PR is more of?
As you mentioned, whenmarketers are publishing their
(18:07):
content, they're only looking ata finite universe and there's a
greater universe of the public,especially when we think about
influential journalists andtrade publications that they
miss out on, where a PRprofessional brings that
perspective which can also helpimprove their content, their
social media.
How do your clients and I knowthat this is a big topic and I
read Brian Solis talk about this15 years ago, writing books
(18:30):
about PR but how do your clientsmeasure the ROI of PR,
especially when everything inmarketing seems really finitely
calculated and measured?
What would be your advice forthose listening that haven't
done PR but are interested andsee the potential positive
impact they can have?
Is it based on instances ofbeing picked up, of additional
(18:52):
they used to call them clips, Ibelieve, in the PR world Is it
more anecdotal or is theresomething that we're missing out
on because we don't understandhow PR works?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Again, a very good question, right, and it's not
easy to measure.
I will say that I think themistake a lot of times is okay.
So you're working with your PRteam internally or your external
resource, and you say, okay, wewant to know how this thing
performs.
And the PR team is like, okay,and they like, really, I mean,
if you don't have any data to goon, as in, what are you trying
(19:23):
to measure?
Who are you trying to reach?
What's the benchmark?
What have you done in the past?
Where are you now?
Like you've got to have somedata involved before you know,
like you have to know whatyou're going to measure.
And then you know PR is probablydoing things in tandem with
marketing, and so how is thatladdering up?
How does it all impact gettingsome new customers or
(19:45):
prospective new customers?
Or you know, like if you go toa trade show and your PR team is
promoting that, you're going tobe at the trade show and your
CEO is speaking at the tradeshow, and so there's probably a
lot that PR is doing to helpraise the visibility of that.
But at the end of the day, it'sgoing to be well.
How many you know badges did wescan, or how many you know
leads did we get, or like youknow, and PR's role in that
(20:07):
might not even be factored in.
So I feel like there's just notenough thought given to like
what are we measuring?
How are we measuring?
You know, it's just I don'tknow.
People say go measure, and thenPR is like oh, I don't know.
And then you know like so it's,it's kind of it's not a perfect
science, I guess.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I guess it almost sounds like what social media
has become, because social mediahas stopped becoming this major
generator of traffic, but it'ssomething because the public is
there you need to be active onand therefore, how do you
calculate the ROI of beingactive, of being in front of
people, when it's not generatingthat traffic?
And PR to me sounds verysimilar.
It's this additional, it's partof this infrastructure which
(20:49):
obviously is going to addadditional visibility, but how
much you put into it and how doyou measure what you take out of
it?
Well, how do you do that withsocial media or with other more
intangible types of marketingthat you need to be doing, or
with branding or a website?
I guess with a website redesignmaybe, see our conversion rate
optimization, what have you?
But for a B2B company, youmight not be able to do that.
So I guess in marketing there'sthe measurable, there's the
(21:10):
immeasurable and I'm sure you'vehad clients that have asked you
.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
You know details about that and I assume it's
it's well, did you know?
What did PR contribute to?
How big was that contribution?
What were the results?
And I'm assuming that's theonly way to go about measuring
it then, right, or are there anyother?
I also interview him, you know,quarterly, and we have a
conversation and he has told methat when he goes to an event
like a trade show, and he walksin, he's like everyone's, like
gosh.
We see you everywhere.
You know you're showing upeverywhere.
So that's, you know that'spowerful.
(21:49):
They know that that is wherethat's coming from.
And of course, you know it'snot like me doing all.
You know my client collaboratesvery closely with me and
without that collaboration Iwould not have as much success
for them.
So that's really important too.
I mean it's it's a partnershipand it does pay off for them and
they know that.
(22:09):
But they're not as concernedabout like hard numbers as they
are about buzz and just you know, they know they're showing up
and people are seeing it andpeople, you know, refer to it
and they, so that's how they,that's their measurement.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So Makes a lot of sense, and I've heard from other
companies like, yeah, they, youknow similar comments anecdotal
, but it does talk about thattop of mind sort of thought
leadership which, you know,advertising alone will not get
you there.
It takes a lot more than that,especially to be trusted, and
that, obviously, is what PRbrings in.
So I'm curious there's probablya lot of misconceptions that
(22:46):
marketers have about PR and Ithink I might've already talked
about some of them, but I'd loveto hear what are other things
that we should all know thatwe're totally getting wrong
about what PR does and the valueit brings.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times people are just
confused, Like they don't reallyunderstand what PR people do.
You know, what do you do allday?
Do you write press releases?
Is that all you do Like?
And it's not right.
So I mean, and it's you know,PR is not an ad, it's not paid,
it's earned media.
So I think they work welltogether if you can do both, but
(23:19):
you don't want to mistake onefor the other, and that's
something I see happening.
And the other thing is it takestime to do PR, to do earned
media.
So if you're in a hurry to getresults, you might want to
consider paid media.
You might want to buy an ad ora sponsored piece, for example.
So those are a couple of thingsthat I run into pretty often.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So for those listening that want to get
started, obviously reaching outto a PR consultant like yourself
is obviously a great way to getstarted and learn and get
coached.
But what are other sort offirst steps for those that
really haven't been engaging inPR?
What are some recommended firststeps that you would advise
them to get started on?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I think it's a really good idea if they can figure
out who they are trying to reach.
So what audiences are youtrying to get in front of?
And then, where are thoseaudiences spending time?
And then, what do you wannashare with them?
What's your goal doing PR?
Do you wanna be seen as athought leader in your space?
Do you want to educate thepublic about an issue, for
(24:15):
example, in the nonprofit world?
That might be a goal.
Do you just want your name onmore prospective customers?
You know shortlist, you knowwhat are you trying to achieve.
And then you know work with andtalk with your PR provider
about how they think you couldbest get there and make sure
that you listen to them and dowork, as you know, in a
(24:37):
collaborative way with them,because the last thing you want
to do is bring somebody in andthen just tell them to go.
You know, write a press release.
Maybe that's not the best thingand maybe your PR provider
would share that with you.
If you're open to hearing thatand you know, it's not always a
press release, it's not always apitch what else can we do?
What's the right thing to do?
(24:58):
So those are a couple of tips.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So I guess, based on that, the way that marketers
should be perceiving this isreally it's less about bottom of
the funnel, more about top ofthe funnel, generating demand,
generating brand awareness, sothat when you do advertise you
do have content.
It just gets that much morevisibility, has that much more
impact.
And therefore I'm assuming thenthere are stages in which it
(25:22):
might be more appropriate toinvest in PR rather than, if
you're just getting started, youmay not just generating your
core brand awareness and coredemand.
There's probably someinfrastructural marketing that
you need to do.
But do you find startups thatstart with PR versus marketing,
or is it always sort of intandem?
And are there phases of whichyou find companies you know
(25:44):
you're too early for PR or maybeyou're not too early?
Is there sort of a you know atiming as well that companies
should be aware of when thinkingabout investing in PR?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Wow, I could talk about this all day, but I worked
in Silicon Valley when Istarted my consulting practice.
Yeah.
So I worked with a lot ofstartups and a lot of them.
I think it was too early.
It's more of an issue now thanit used to be when I started
consulting, because if ajournalist has never heard of
you before, they're much lesslikely to write about you or,
(26:17):
you know, include you in a story.
Because unless you're doingsomething really unique and you
have differentiated yourself insome way, because they probably
just get bombarded with pitchesfrom you know many companies
they have never heard of, soyou're not really going to stand
out.
Now, if you're a manufacturingcompany with 50 years in the
business, you probably havethought leaders, you probably
(26:39):
have unique perspectives andways of doing things that you
can share.
So I think that is you know.
Obviously not every company is50 years old, that you know.
You don't have to be to do PR,but sometimes startups it is a
little bit too early and I'veseen them, you know, really
spend a lot of money and maybeit's just a little bit too early
.
You know, because you know Iyeah.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
So get your infrastructure in place first.
Yeah, I, I sense that, and I'veworked with brands where they
didn't have their own, theydidn't even have owned media,
but they were just spending lotsof money on Google
pay-per-click and well, anyway,we could talk about that.
But but yeah, in in digitalthreads, I do talk about how
this there's an order of thingswhen it comes to marketing, I
(27:31):
believe with PR as well.
So a few more questions beforewe end.
This has been extremelyeducational.
Thank you for know they justrebranded because I had to
correct the URL of my book.
Is that still, if you want toget started with trying to get
your name out there and connectwith journalists, would that
still be the number one resourceyou recommend, or are there
other resources out there thatwe should know about?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I think there's a place for it.
I think Peter Shankman calls itsource of sources now so, but
okay, so I call that reactive PRand I feel like companies
really should be investing inproactive PR.
Of course you can have thereactive in there, you know, as
an additional, you know way toyou know, get your name out
(28:10):
there.
But it's really hard again,because those reporters are
putting out the query and thenthey're probably getting who
knows how many responses.
So, unless you're reallystanding out, and again, if
you're generating a responsewith a chat bot, you're not
going to stand out Spoiler alert.
But instead, if you arethinking about and here's
another thing when companies puttogether a media list or
(28:31):
agencies do it for you a lot oftimes they'll put hundreds of
media outlets and contacts,journalists, editors, on that
list.
You don't need hundreds, youneed maybe 15, 20 that you're
really interested in getting infront of.
So I would do some research onthat.
And you don't even need a mediadatabase.
You could just go online orjust ask your customers, or
maybe you already know whatthey're looking at, where
(28:52):
they're looking for information.
Sparktoro is another tool youcould use.
They have a free and paidversion, so just look for some
places where you would want toshow up, where you would be in
front of your audience and maybeapproach it that way, because
it's not about how many pitchesyou're sending out.
It's about are you pitching theright publications, the right
(29:12):
contacts, the right editors,journalists and then what are
you saying when you send thepitch out?
Is it a fit for their audienceand what they write or produce
stories about?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
So reverse engineering the process then and
I love that mention of Harrowbeing, you know, reactive PR,
because, yeah, it's not like theold days where you know you are
only one of a few peopleresponding Anyone and everyone
is doing it, and there arepeople on Fiverr that'll do it
for you.
What have you?
So whether they're going to beeffective or not obviously is in
question.
So it almost sounds likepinpointing those key strategic
(29:44):
media outlets, journalists, andthen really try to develop a
relationship with them to thepoint where you understand what
they're looking for in a pitchand only contact them when you
have a value-worthy pitch, andobviously PR that's what they do
is they understand how thoserelationships work and they can
accelerate that, make it mosteffective.
But, in a nutshell, is thatbasically what you're
(30:04):
recommending, then, in lieu ofusing a Herald service?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, and I think once you have that relationship
as a trusted source for aneditor or journalist or reporter
, they might come to youproactively.
And that happens with myclients.
I mean, I have thoserelationships established and so
they'll say you know what we'relooking for, a source for the
story we're doing on conveyorsand manufacturing.
Does your client have, you know, some comments they could share
(30:28):
and they'll send me somequestions and you know.
So it really, once you get somemomentum going, it can be a
very robust program but you dohave require some legwork to get
off the ground.
But I think then you buildmomentum and you start to see
results and you understand thatyou know over time it's not
overnight.
I'd say, you know, give itthree to six months if you're
(30:49):
just starting out, for example.
Sometimes people ask me thatquestion how long does it take?
Well it's, you know you've gotto give it a little time.
So yeah, how long?
Speaker 1 (30:56):
does it take?
Well, it's, you know, you gotto give it a little time.
So, yeah, how long will it takefor your business to ramp up to
?
I mean it's?
It's the same general question,right?
We're not magicians here, folks.
Sorry, you know, I want to endon.
We talked about PR'srelationship with content
marketing, social mediamarketing, how it can really,
you know, expand everythingyou're doing in a very natural
way, when, done right, could bevery effective.
Earn media with the emergenceof influencers and content
(31:20):
creators in a creator economy.
I obviously wrote the Age ofInfluence, all about influencer
marketing.
So I have to ask you thisquestion but when you look at
media outreach now, or PRactivities now, compared to 15
years ago, I'm assuming thatinfluencers slash content
creators, whatever you call themthese days.
I'm assuming that they havesome role.
I'm curious from yourperspective what role, if any,
(31:45):
do they have and what advice,from a PR perspective, you might
be giving our audience adviceon how to best engage with them?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, well, I mean, I think it has to be authentic.
That's always my thing.
I've never understood howpaying somebody millions of
dollars to say they like and useyour product when it's clear
that you know you paid them todo that and they probably in
their day to day are not usingyour product, that's very, I
mean, that doesn't resonate,especially with a younger
(32:13):
generation.
You know, I have a high schoolkid and a young kid in their 20s
and so, like that, they don't,they know, like what you're
doing there.
So, and I think that that's,you know, a big tell right.
So you have to be aware of whatis authentic.
So maybe there's somebody outthere who talks about your
product, who has a following,that would be a better person to
(32:35):
engage as an influencer.
I would say, if they're alreadya fan and a be a better person
to engage as an influencer.
I would say, if they're alreadya fan and a follower of your
brand, maybe look there and see.
Maybe it's not the person thatyou know has an agent and has
the biggest following.
Maybe it's, you know, a smaller, a micro-influencer, for
example.
They might have morecredibility and be, you know,
spending time with the peoplethat you want to reach.
(32:56):
Anyway, they're already intheir community, you know, on
social media or whatever.
So, so.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I take it that from your PR activities then you
don't you focus more on thetraditional media side rather
than so.
You know, it's funny becausewhen social media marketing
started, michelle and we and weturned back the clock it was
often owned by PR departments,for those that remember the
glorious days of Radiant 6.
And anyway, we can go back inhistory and over time that's
become sort of where socialmedia marketing is.
(33:23):
I've seen influencerrelationships, and maybe it's
more with B2B companies wherethey have established people
that are not necessarily part ofmarketing.
And there are some companieswhere PR especially B2B like I
said, not necessarily B2C, butit sounds like what you're
seeing and the advice you'regiving and the questions you're
getting from your clients as aPR consultant really aren't
(33:43):
around the influencer side.
It's more of the general mediaside.
Then Is that a correctassumption?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
That is correct.
I'm not going to say that wewould never consider working
with influencers, but that's notwhat my focus would be,
necessarily, although, again, wecan always do some research,
use SparkToro, look on LinkedIn,see who in their space might be
someone that they couldconsider working with, or maybe
(34:09):
even just contacting somebody tocontribute to an article or
something we're working on.
You know, in that way, and itwouldn't even necessarily be a
paid thing, it would just be anatural fit for you know,
whatever we happen to be talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Makes a lot of sense.
Now, you've mentioned SparkToroa few times, and on another
podcast that used to run the Ageof Influence, we actually
interviewed Rand Fishkin, sovery familiar with the tool, I
know it's an amazing tool.
A lot of people talk about it.
I still really haven'tleveraged it as part of what I
do.
So, if you can describe, I'massuming that you use SparkToro
to find out your audience, whatother media they're consuming,
(34:43):
what other podcasts they listento, websites they go to, and
from that, just sort of betterunderstand not only who your
target audience is, but also, ifyou want to target sources of
information as far as the PRcampaign, you have a better idea
of what those sources are.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Is that pretty much how you use SparkToro, or are
there other features or otherthings that we're missing out on
?
Yeah, no, that pretty much sumsit up.
I mean, I get nervous when Isee a smaller company with a
very limited marketing budgetwhich PR sits under the
marketing budget they'respending thousands of dollars on
a big media database.
And I'm not saying again ifyou're a big company, if you're
a Fortune 500 company, if you'republicly traded, you need to
(35:22):
issue your news on a wireservice and you need to have a
database, probably, and youmight need a big agency and an
internal team.
That's all fine and there'snothing at all wrong with that.
But for the smaller companieswho are, you know, struggling or
just have a limited budget, Ithink that's a little bit of a
waste of money.
I would rather see them usingthat money to hire talent in the
form of a consultant or asmaller boutique agency or
something to help them gettraction, and one of the tools
(35:44):
that I would recommend, versus abig media database, might be a
tool like SparkToro, because youcan do research.
They have what they call hiddengems in there, and so it would
be additional things that youmight not have thought of and of
course he talks about howthey've put that together, how
it, you know, pulls thoseresources out for you, and I
(36:09):
just think it's a little bit ofa you know, it's not quite as
crazy and expensive and hard touse or figure out as a media
database.
That's just another resourcethat you might look to.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
It's funny, I've never really considered a media
database and when I interviewedRan and we also talked about
BuzzSumo, which you know quasisimilar tool like well, like,
what do we call this tool?
We don't even know, but we knowit has a lot of value.
So, media database, that willbe the tool.
That will be the term that Iwill use.
So great advice, michelle.
You know, from a marketerperspective of hopefully
everybody else listening haslearned a ton from you.
(36:37):
Is there anything that I didn'task you that I should have, or
any other advice you want topart with for this audience that
once they want to achieveresults in their business and
they want it fast and they seedigital as a way to help them do
that, and I think that thisconversation has generated
(36:57):
probably new interest in PR forthem.
You know, what else is therethat they should know that we
didn't cover, if anything?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Yeah Well, I mean, give it time if you decide to
move forward Again.
If it is overnight resultsyou're looking for, I would say
you might be disappointed if youlook to PR only because you
know, first of all, it's notguaranteed, it is earned media
and so you know we willcertainly do our best to get you
results as quickly as possible,but you also play a role in
(37:25):
that, so you have to be bringingthings to the table to help us,
help you and, of course, yes,the Jerry Maguire helped me help
you.
Yes, we use that sometimes totalk about it, but, like you
know, we need to know, like weneed your thought leaders, we
need your news and stories, weneed to know what's going on
behind the scenes.
You know, don't?
You know, work with us as apartner and don't just hire a PR
resource and then walk away andsay, okay, well, you know, we
(37:48):
did the search, we hired someone, now it's all in there.
You know, all in their handsnow.
Like no, you need to be involvedin that and certainly you don't
want to work with somebody whoyou need to hold their hand.
I'm not saying that, but you doneed to be talking regularly.
I meet with clients at leastonce a month to talk about what
they have going on, what'scoming up.
So you need to be sharing andtalking and developing a
(38:10):
relationship with your PRprovider and you want to know
who you're going to be workingwith on a day-to-day basis when
you do decide to move forwardwith PR.
So that would be another thingI would say.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Great advice.
So it's not like you're hiringan ad agency and you're just
throwing it over the wall.
It requires a collaborativeapproach to be successful, like
most anything in marketing,actually.
So I couldn't agree with youmore, Michelle.
You've been very generous withyour time, your advice.
If people want to reach out toyou, ask you questions,
potentially hire you, whereshould we send them?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
My website, michellegarrettcom, would be a
great place to start.
Of course I'm on LinkedIn and,yeah, those are two places you
could find me.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, and I'm sure you've said this before, but
it's two L's, two R's and twoT's, so don't get that spelling
wrong.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
And I know you're well by the time this is
published, you will have alreadyspoken at Content Marketing
World, but I know that you're aregular there, so look out for
Michelle on the Speaking Circuit.
And, michelle, thank you somuch for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
(39:15):
I should say this podcast, thisepisode, included.
We teach tactical andstrategical things, but often
the things that I'm teachinghere and what comes out in the
conversations is just a mindsetshift.
Just looking at something thatyou always thought of as A and
thinking of it in a new light,as B and with the new thought
(39:36):
process, unlocks all sorts ofopportunities.
That's sort of my role in theworld.
You should know my new motto iseducate and empower, and I
think that really reallysummarizes everything I do here,
whether it's my podcast, mybooks, my speaking, my teaching
and yes, if you didn't know andyou wanted to get my latest
advice, I have two books that Ijust published in, one in late
(39:58):
September, or I should saymid-September, and one in early
October Maximizing LinkedIn forBusiness Growth.
And then a book, and thatencompasses all of my LinkedIn
advice, obviously, and then abook that encompasses all of my
digital marketing advice,including content marketing,
social media marketing,influencer marketing, seo, email
marketing, ai marketing, thewhole bit.
It is called Digital Threads.
You can find all of these booksnot just my latest two, but the
(40:22):
other four of written six booksall on Amazon, wherever you buy
books.
If you want a shortcut, checkout Digital Threads by going to
neilschafercom slashdigitalthreadsamazon.
All right, well, that's it foranother hopefully insightful
episode of the your DigitalMarketing Coach podcast.
If you haven't subscribedalready, I hope you will,
because I have some other greatinterviews coming up and I like
(40:43):
to cover a variety of topics.
As my friends on DealCasters,who I just appeared on their
podcast and they read digitalthreads and they go Neil, you
messed me up and what they meantby that was I give them ideas
they hadn't thought of.
I challenge them to see thingsin a new light and grow, and so
I want to make sure I do thatwith you.
I bring in a variety of guests.
(41:04):
This is not one single niche.
Digital marketing is broad, andif, for every 10 episodes, if
there's one or two that reallyvibe with you and you find
tactical, strategic, insightfuladvice that levels your brand
and gives you the ROI ofspending 30 minutes to an hour
together, then I have served myrole as your digital marketing
coach.
So this is Neil Schaefersigning off.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
You've been listening to your digital marketing coach
.
Questions, comments, requests,links go to
podcastneilschafercom.
Get the show notes to this and200 plus podcast episodes at
neilschafercom to tap into the400 plus blog posts that Neil
has published to support yourbusiness.
(41:44):
While you're there, check outNeil's digital first group
coaching membership community Ifyou or your business needs a
little helping hand.
See you next time on yourdigital marketing coach.
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