November 7, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode, Brian Wallace joins the show to explore how coaching sparks powerful conversations with teenagers. He highlights the vital role of the Holy Spirit in these interactions, guiding both youth leaders and teens to gain valuable insights and awareness. Brian also contrasts coaching with consulting and teaching, emphasizing how coaching fosters deeper, more meaningful connections with your students.
LINKS MENTIONED:
National Association of Youth Ministry
The Youth Cartel
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
The Longer Haul Youth Ministry Coaching
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Takeaways
Coaching creates space for transformative conversations.
The Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in coaching.
Insights gained during coaching can be profound.
Coaching differs significantly from consulting and teaching.
Transformation can be visually observed in coaching sessions.
Meaningful dialogue is a hallmark of effective coaching.
Awareness gained through coaching can lead to personal growth.
Coaching allows for deeper connections between individuals.
The process of coaching can lead to spiritual breakthroughs.
Coaching is a powerful tool for personal and professional development.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Coaching and Background
07:21 Defining Coaching: The Process and Its Importance
16:01 Coaching vs. Counseling: Understanding the Differences
18:49 The Coaching Process: Initial Steps and Expectations
25:09 The Role of the Coach: Listening and Facilitating Growth
28:29 The Humbling Journey of Coaching
32:00 The Role of Coaching in Personal Growth
34:42 The Importance of Humility in Coaching
37:25 Navigating Challenges in Ministry
39:17 When to Seek Coaching vs. Consulting
42:16 Exploring Coaching Certification Opportunities
50:28 Coaching Benefits
51:28 Encouragement for Personal Growth and Community Engagement
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think coaching as a modality gives a lot of room for Holy Spirit driven conversationthat I don't want to talk bad about consulting and teaching.
do a lot of that stuff, right?
But man, in those conversations, when that other person is thinking and the two of you areworking hard,
Like, there are moments where you see, like literally, visually see, and I'm Presbyterian,I am not a charismatic guy.
(00:25):
So when I say what I'm about to say, I am not messing around, because I am adyed-in-the-wool Presbyterian.
You see the transformation happen in front of you.
You see where through you the spirit is broken through.
There's a new insight, there's a new awareness that they have gained, and they are not thesame.
(00:46):
Well, hey, hey, everybody.
Welcome to the show today.
Thanks for tuning in and listening wherever you are and wherever this finds you.
Thanks for making this podcast today a part of your day.
it's your first time checking out show, man, welcome.
I'm excited for you to jump on.
I picked a doozy, I think, to jump in here.
If you're coming back, man, welcome on back.
(01:08):
Thanks for being a part of the Longer Haul community.
Today, jumping on with my good friend Brian Wallace, who, as you'll hear,
He's just a phenomenal guy.
Loves youth ministry, loves ministry in general, specifically loves coming alongside andhelping ministers and pastors kind of find out what's next and work through some things.
(01:31):
I have told a lot of folks over the last few months that one of the most impactful thingsthat I think I've ever done in the last 20, 25 years
was pursuing a Youth Ministry coaching certification.
Brian is one of the guys who kind of helps lead the charge on that.
It'd be hard to express how helpful it was for me, both personally and professionally.
(01:55):
You'll hear me even, I mentioned that in the interview today.
So if you're kind of feeling a little bit stuck or you've been just curious aboutcoaching, what it looks like, what it is, what it could potentially do for you, how it
could help you.
or even maybe if you've thought about becoming a certified youth ministry coach yourself,today will be a great episode for you.
I think even if it's not something that's on your radar right now, just some really goodhelpful things that are shared in this interview today.
(02:22):
So don't jump over, don't skip past, really take the time to listen today.
Great interview, great conversation.
Brian's such a great guy.
Appreciate him so much and his time for coming on.
Hey listen, if you're not subscribed to the show or following the show,
Wherever you listen, make sure you do that.
Jump over to the SuperSecret Podcast group over on Facebook as well.
Make sure you head over to Longer Hall.
Jump on the mailing list there.
(02:43):
Show notes today will be at thelongerhall.com slash episode 138.
Longerhall.com slash episode 138.
So make sure you head over there as well.
Again, great interview today.
Excited to jump in.
Know you'll appreciate hearing it.
So with all that said and out of the way, here's today's interview with Brian Wallace.
(03:21):
Well, hey, Brian, thanks for jumping on today.
Appreciate your time.
I know you're busy guy.
Got a lot going on.
So we're going to tackle kind of this topic of coaching today, which I'm excited totackle.
But before we jump in, maybe just take a minute, introduce yourself a little bit aboutyour background, what you do now, and how you got there.
(03:42):
Yep.
So I am a ordained Presbyterian pastor.
That was not Plan A in life.
Plan A in life was a physics major and a computer science major.
That's story for another time.
But finished.
Yeah, I know, right?
It's very similar.
So finished my undergrad degree, but went straight to seminary and then then was ordained,served a church here in Pittsburgh, about 20 minutes outside of downtown, medium sized
(04:06):
congregation, kind of pretty typical associate job.
What?
80 % of it was youth ministry.
So with youth group camp summer stuff, helping out with, you know, children's ministrystuff here and there, did that for a while.
Got connected with Marco, with Marco striker and the youth cartel through some of theirprograms.
And then was asked by Marco to step in and develop their coaching training.
(04:28):
I'd gone through a previous version of the training and initially I was super hesitantabout it, about developing it.
Like didn't think I really had the skills and the knowledge and the background.
but,
did some reflection on kind of my own gifting and skills and strengths and realized that Ihad a lot of opinions about coaching.
What was good coaching and what wasn't?
And so I did.
(04:48):
then since then, I've continued kind of my own coaching training.
I've done stuff with the International Coach Federation, logged over 300 hours at thispoint of like documented coaching work.
A lot of that comes from my day job, depending on people's familiarity with thePresbyterian world.
Our presbyteries are like our regional associations and I'm on staff with our regionalassociation here in Pittsburgh.
(05:11):
We work with about 120 churches, 300 pastors, 20,000 members, all concentrated in onecounty.
And so been in that role for eight years.
just the short version is I use coaching skills every single day because I don't know 120churches that well.
I don't know all of our pastors.
But I have to go into situations where I'm working with committees and pastors and walkwith them without knowing a lot of information.
(05:38):
And that's where coaching skills come in so helpful because it's a given approach thatworks really well in most of those situations.
Not all.
We'll talk more about that.
So in addition to the like to my actual coaching work with Youth Cartel doing the trainingprogram for them, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not thinking, OK, what are the
questions I need to be asking in this situation?
(05:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I, we met through that program and jumped into that and have done that this year.
And we've talked about that.
I was hesitant to jump into that for a million of reasons that probably another time.
and I have found myself, I don't know how many, I mean, every time I talk about it topeople, I tell them easily the best thing I've done for myself, both personally and
(06:22):
professionally, probably in the last 20 years.
I mean outside of my formal education,
practically and personally just incredibly, incredibly impactful and beneficial for me.
And I will say, and I think this is probably true for the whole cohort that I was with,which I'm guessing is similar for all.
I think I misunderstood what coaching was going in.
(06:45):
Like think I had an idea of what it was gonna be.
And my hope and goal and my motivation was I want to be able to help coach my staff betteron my team.
and volunteers, I wanted to, and I wanted to be able to utilize that as a skillset throughthe podcast and through the longer haul.
That's kind of my motivation going in.
I don't think I realized how impactful it was going to be across every area of my life andfor sure didn't quite understand what it is.
(07:12):
So maybe to kind of put us all on the same page for those listening, could you just kindof define what you would call, what you would say coaching is?
Yeah.
So what, so coaching is similar or has connections to a lot of different things that we'reused to consulting, spiritual direction, mentoring, teaching, et cetera.
The thing that really sets coaching apart is coaching is a coachee or for the sake ofthis, call me this client.
(07:38):
I know some people like struggle with that word, but in the coaching world, that's what weuse, right?
It it's client directed.
So unlike consulting where
And by the way, I've worked with some really good consultants.
Like I'm not talking bad about consulting.
I've worked with great ones.
I've done consulting work, but unlike consulting where a consultant comes in and gathers alot of information and then makes recommendations.
(07:59):
The idea behind coaching is that you assume that the client, the coachee, the personyou're talking to, they are the expert in their given situation.
And so your job is to lead them through a process where they do the work, right?
So you are walking the like you're walking alongside them, but
you need to know to be an effective coach actually very little about their context.
(08:21):
And, but the difference is that you also have to be a little bit more neutral, right?
So consultant is going to try and say, here's what I think you should do.
Right.
In coaching, there's really not a place for that.
That that's not, you can have that thought, but that's an inner thought in the coachingsetting.
The coaching setting is how do I help this person discover in the more secular world, ourworld, how do I help this person discern faithfully?
(08:46):
their next step.
And so we talk about ministry coaching specifically, that's the difference, right?
We're not hoping that they discover or decide, we're hoping that they discern.
And in that sense, coaching in the way we approach it is really an exercise indiscernment, right?
Where two or more are gathered.
We believe that this is approach, a conversational technique that helps people discernwell.
(09:09):
To stress, it is a technique, right?
And there are others and there are other really valid ways of doing things.
But the
big difference and Jody, you've been through the program is a coaching conversation startsout like this.
So what would you like to talk about today?
And they tell you, and the coach operates out of this position of saying, okay, unless Iam confused, I don't ask context questions because they know the answers, right?
(09:34):
Unless I'm not tracking.
I try and stay away from context.
And so on the one hand, coaching is the opposite of consulting or whereas consulting is alot of data followed by recommendations.
Coaching says, look, you're the expert.
You're the expert.
I'm gonna walk with you.
We're gonna talk this through, right?
And a lot of people will say that, hey, I just need to talk this through with someone,right?
(09:56):
And what I think really sets coaching apart, and I think particularly in ministry contextthat you run and that I run, we do a lot of here's my book, come to our conference,
download the information, and then apply it.
And that is good, right?
I'm not, again, not critiquing that, but.
The difference with coaching is that the coaching coaching is much more of a listening andfacilitating model as opposed to a understanding and recommending model.
(10:25):
And two of the things that we talk about, right?
Two, there's, there's eight things that a coach is supposed to do, but two of the onesthat are really important is active listening and facilitating awareness, right?
Like, like you are not telling them what they need to know.
And that's the thing that a lot of people, you're not at all alone.
A lot of folks who come into our program are like, you know, I've been in student ministryfor 15 years.
(10:46):
I know all this stuff.
I've had all these experiences.
Like I want to help people better.
And we're like, that's great.
And that's not what this program is.
Yeah, I remember and I still in my head say this even as I'm books now, you guys keptsaying trust the process.
(11:06):
Because so the way the program worked and works is for us we were there for a weekendessentially and it's just kind of all day for several days, learn, go coach, learn, go
coach and kind of paired up with somebody.
through that and you had us coach several sessions through maybe a professional kind ofconcern, we'll call it that, or ministry concern.
(11:33):
And then the last one was more of a personal, I think.
so coaching kind of spans across the topic.
And I remember sitting there being coached by an awesome guy in our program who waslearning just like me and...
And who knew how much about your context?
(11:54):
Nothing, there you go.
Right, right.
we're not the same, like, I don't even think we're from the same theological background.
Like, you know, draw the lines.
He's not serving as a youth pastor.
He just works with Institute of So, but a phenomenal guy.
And I remember thinking as the week went, holy moly, like, this is working, like, really,really well.
(12:19):
And then I felt like I got picked on a lot.
in the sessions because I, if you know me, I have opinions about a lot of things and not alot of patients.
And then coming out of that, I have kind of continued to remind myself, okay, just trustthe process.
And then we had to do, I think six hours, right, of coaching for the certification.
(12:40):
And even in that process for me, coaching a guy, watching him grow across those six hourswas amazing.
And the hardest thing is not giving advice.
And here's the thing that still drives me crazy.
(13:01):
I don't get to ask about what we talked about last time unless they bring it up.
Right?
And so you want to know, but you can't ask unless they say it.
So I think I was really interested.
It was really interesting to me how the process played out.
And so I say that because
I think there's those listening that go, I think I just want advice.
(13:21):
And I'll tell you, even the things that I talked about in that weekend, I'd been givenlots of advice about those things from a lot of people.
None of it was particularly bad, but it really wasn't until I sat across from a guy whowas just asking me really great questions and making me answer for myself that I really
came away with some pretty clear direction.
(13:45):
It was awesome.
It was awesome.
I think one of the unique things about coaching and like, not only do I train coaches, notonly do I do coaching, I currently have not one, but two one-on-one coaches who I utilize.
And, and I say that because I think sometimes our desire, particularly in ministry isactually a healthy one, at least has very good intent to say, I need the input of others.
(14:12):
I need others wisdom.
I don't know enough of this, right?
And that is a good impulse.
But the thing is, like even biblically speaking, right?
Like, can you imagine Peter trying to give Paul advice on doing ministry with theGentiles, right?
It's not gonna work.
It's not gonna work because the context is so different.
(14:34):
so we see in that sense, and what I've learned is that usually I go into my sessions whereI'm being coached.
I'm like, I have no idea.
I need to talk.
And my coach is a great guy.
He's like, well, just start talking.
What's been going on?
And an hour later I'm done.
And like, I look at my notes, I got a page full of notes.
There are all kinds of insights, thoughts, conclusions.
(14:56):
And my coach will say, stop, write that down.
Stop, write that down.
It's not stuff he's saying, it's stuff I'm saying.
He's drawing it out of me though, right?
He's not sitting there like a bump in the log.
He is active and engaged, he's fighting questions.
I mean, he's, you know, gently challenging me and saying, okay, say more, right?
Like I've heard you say this before, but now you're saying this, show me where those lineup.
(15:16):
And I'm like, that's a thought.
So it's not passive, but he is really kind of sitting back and letting me drive.
And in that sense, the only analogy, there's not a good analogy, but I just taught my 16year old to drive and that 17 year old.
And the only analogy that I've come up for coaching is you were in the passenger seatsaying, okay, if this is where you want to go, let's ask this question.
(15:39):
Let's turn right, right?
Yeah, that's good.
Or if you want to go right, it's not perfect analogy, but that's the difference is thatyou're sitting in the passenger seat along for the ride, is there figuring it
How would you explain, explain for the listener, because I would imagine someone listeningto you talk about that, especially how you just described it, is sitting there thinking,
this sounds a lot more like counseling.
(16:01):
Yeah, that's a great.
Yep.
That is a great question.
So the easiest difference is this, that coaching is really at its best, like forwardfocused, right?
It's on identifying, discerning, imagining even a different future or a new future, right?
(16:21):
Counseling tends to be more, how do I deal with the stuff in my life, past and present?
so that I can be healthier in the future.
There are, you end up crossing over and this is where it gets tricky, right?
Because one of my, in fact, we're doing a training right now and I was talking this weekabout emotional center questions, right?
(16:43):
How do you in coaching engage people's emotions?
And the question comes up, it's like, yeah, but if I ask somebody, how does that make themfeel?
Like that feels like a counseling question, right?
And.
And my response was twofold.
One was kind of flippant, which is, look, therapists do not have the monopoly on askingpeople about their emotions.
(17:03):
Normal people are allowed to ask about emotions too, but very careful is that if youimmediately pick up that this person is trying to sort out their pain in a conversation
with me, then we're out, right?
That is not my specialty.
And part of what I love is I'm not trained as a therapist, so I cannot do it, right?
(17:23):
So I don't know how to do that.
And so, I actually don't have a lot of trouble avoiding the temptation to do it because Idon't know how to do it.
Like, I don't know what the end goal is.
So, but, but what I've learned is if I think there's an issue that someone's reallystruggling with, I will say it's particularly if I know that they're seeing a therapist,
(17:45):
I'll ask, look, have you talked to your therapist about this?
If their answer is yes, I'll say, okay, what did they say?
What came out of that conversation?
Right.
Keeping it forward directed.
helps you stay out of that lane.
It helps you stay in the right lane of not getting into counseling.
Because anything in the ministry world, we don't want to do what we're not trained andequipped and qualified to do.
(18:08):
But the key is future, future-focused identifying a future path versus dealing withpresent reality, pain, challenges, relational struggles, internal struggles, et cetera.
Yeah.
So let's talk then a little bit about what a coaching process would look like for someone.
So someone listening is saying, hmm, okay, this sounds interesting.
(18:29):
Maybe something I should do or want to do.
They reach out for coaching either to me or to you or someone else.
Usually at least this is kind of where I've landed so far.
starts with like a short little discovery call of some kind to make sure it's a goodmatch, kind of identifying some areas or goals.
(18:49):
And then you get into the first kind of session.
You mentioned earlier it starts with a basic question.
What do you want to talk about?
From there then, what does that look like?
Yeah.
So, and you've recapped it really well, right?
One of the first things to know is that not every coach is a fit for every leader, right?
There are, there are, it's like anything, there are bad fits.
(19:10):
And so exactly to your point, in, in the, in 2023, I was enrolled in a program thatincluded coaching and I was sent a list of like 10 bios of people who I could pick from.
And I picked out a couple and I emailed them and I zeroed in one pretty quick.
And I was like, I think this is the right one.
But as you said, we had a 30 minute phone call, no money changed hands, there was nocontractor agreement signed.
(19:32):
It was strictly let me find out about you, you find out about me.
And it goes both ways, right?
I have been in situations where people have reached out to me for coaching.
I've had the initial call and been like, nah, not gonna work, right?
For whatever reason, and that's fine.
But I think the thing, especially people who are interested in being coached, finding thatfit is critical.
And it's totally appropriate to be like, I'm really grateful for your time.
(19:55):
don't think that this is a fit, right?
And most likely if the coach is good, they'll be like, yeah, it's kind of thinking thesame thing, right?
Like you can tell there needs to be just a level of comfort because one of the coachingcompetencies cultivates trust and safety.
And if in whatever, in that first conversation, that trust and safety isn't there, youshould not be coached by that person.
Just full stop.
(20:15):
You don't even have to have a good reason.
You can just be like, nope, I've had people, I've tried to pair people for stuff andthey've been like, Brian, it's a no.
And I'm like, okay.
Like, don't ask.
So I that's the biggest thing is not to underscore, like, like not to sell short the valueof the fit piece.
I think the big thing for coaching is, is if you're going to go into it, you've got tokind of figure out what it is you want out of it.
(20:41):
If you're just like, I'm struggling.
Okay.
Maybe the coaching question is, I don't know why I'm struggling, but I need to figure itout.
Right.
Because I can't.
I can't move forward in ministry right now because I don't know what's holding me back.
Right.
And that may be a coachable question.
It may not, you know, it may find out, no, you are dealing with personal battles anddemons that are not coachable.
(21:05):
They require other forms of intervention and responses.
That's fine.
The outcome of one coaching session I did six, like we signed up for six sessions at theend of two, the guy was like, you know what?
Forget it.
Like I know what I needed to do.
And it's not coaching is like I've
put off seeing a therapist because I don't want to be unbroken.
Coaching has shown me I'm broken.
(21:26):
I need to get a therapist, right?
Future-focus, this is what I need to do, but that guy, we canceled, refunded in the lastfour sessions, and off he went, you know, to see a therapist.
But that's the thing, it's kind of a big picture, but then also to understand, like, eachsession, we tend to, in our brainstorming, least I do, off way more than we can chew.
(21:49):
People are like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this.
And anyone who's listening who's ever gone to any youth ministry conference knows you sitthere for four days and you come back and you have so many notes, right?
And then the parent who's supposed to bring snack doesn't show up on Sunday night andeverything you learned is out the window because there's no snack, right?
The difference in coaching is that it is an ongoing process over time.
(22:14):
And what happens so often is like, I'll go into
a session with my coach and you know under the auspices of or in a situation that that I'min now I was provided coaching because I was in a new role and this new role is part of
the payment for it a coach was included right so the big picture was to help me be aneffective leader in this transitional season that was it then under that kind of bigger
(22:41):
framework each session I was like okay I got a big meeting coming up in March I want totalk through that I got a big presentation in September I want to talk to that
We got to figure out what to do with this.
I want to talk to that all under that bigger umbrella, right?
But the best thing is there was one session where I started talking and I didn't talkabout any of that stuff.
Right, because there was something going on with me personally that day.
(23:03):
That was the most important thing, and I wasn't going to get to my preferred future untilI sorted that out.
And so the question in that meeting was what's next for you once you're out of thistransitional role?
That was not my radar, but it just came out naturally.
A good coach.
let me go, right?
He's like, and he asked me, is this what you want to keep talking about?
(23:24):
And was like, yeah, I know it's not what I said I wanted to talk about, but this is what'smost important today.
Okay, right.
Keep going.
Yep.
So yeah, and so that's the that's the thing is like, don't I think people come in and youneed to have an idea of where you're going, but you don't need to rigidly hold to
Yeah, no, I love that.
think, would you say that most sessions, and I'm asking for some clarification for thoselistening, most sessions are standalone, like you're saying, or do you kind of come in
(23:51):
with somebody and you're like, okay, we're to talk through this for the next six sessions?
You know, so at the end of the day, right, it is, it's really whatever the coach he bringsto that session.
And what's interesting and what you said, right, you do one session and three weeks later,four weeks later, you meet with them again and you're dying to know like how the meeting
go, how, like, how the conversation with the senior pastor go.
(24:14):
They're like, so today I want to talk about volunteer recruitment.
We're like, what?
Like, no, no, I want like, come on, give me the news.
And what's interesting so often is, you know, at the end of the session, I'll be like,Hey, look, you know, we talked with that.
What happened?
And they're like, yeah.
And it's been so long that it doesn't matter anymore.
(24:36):
It doesn't matter anymore.
They're like, yeah.
I talked to him.
was no big deal.
Or I got out of that coaching session.
I went in to talk to my, you know, my partner, my spouse, my volunteer, whatever.
And they told me it was a crappy idea.
So I didn't even bother.
Right.
And that's the thing about like,
The freedom in coaching is just, hey, whatever is that day?
Yeah, let's have a bigger picture, but whatever is that day, that's the most importantthing to talk.
(25:02):
How often does somebody sit in one of your coaching sessions and begin it by saying, helpme figure out how you do this?
So often, but not nearly as much anymore because I have become extremely diligent insetting clear expectations.
I tell people, so right now I'm serving as a one-on-one coach.
(25:22):
We have a next gen leaders cohort that were running.
We got 11 people from across our region.
I'm serving as a one-on-one coach for three of those folks.
And I sent them a document ahead of time.
I was like, this is gonna be the first question, right?
It doesn't stop them from asking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
stop them from asking.
(25:43):
But my people now have been really long enough that they know how to get around it and tryand trick me and be like, well, but, but what I think is important, right?
Is like, there is a spot in coaching for us to affirm people's own wisdom and insights.
That's what I love about it is cause sometimes I'll be like, look, I got ideas, but let'stalk about you first.
(26:07):
And so often
If I actually think by the time I'm done with a 30 minute, 45 minute coachingconversation, sometimes as the coach, I'm like, actually, I do have something that could
be helpful, but I wait, right?
I wait until the end.
And here's why, you give better advice the more you listen.
So if you jump in early, right?
If you're a couple minutes in and we'll pick volunteer recruitment, because a constanttheme, right?
(26:30):
And I'm like, I got all these ideas, et cetera, et cetera.
Your advice, even if you give it, isn't gonna be as good because you didn't listen.
Whereas if you give them 45 minutes for them to figure out their path, to be empowered,like, like to figure out what they're gonna do and they get passionate about, and you can
be like, hey, you bake the cake, here's like some sprinkles that might help.
(26:53):
Like it's so much more effective if we let people get the personal buy-in.
And just a quick example, there's so many things about this example that aren't a goodidea.
I'm gonna put all that out as a qualifier.
So.
A guy who's my direct successor at the church I served signed up to do one of the cohortgroups that I was one of the one-on-one coaches for.
(27:13):
And there were a couple of us working with the group and he said to me, he's like, I wantyou to be my one-on-one coach.
And I was like, for a lot of reasons, that's not good and here's why.
He goes, I understand all that.
I still want you to be my one-on-one coach because I trust you, et cetera.
So I went into that, I was like, this is gonna be really bad.
This is gonna be really bad.
(27:34):
What I learned from that experience of coaching somebody, and again, I would neverrecommend that.
I'd never recommend you coach a successor.
I would never recommend you coach a close friend.
So I'm putting those out there.
What I learned from that experience though, was same church, we're very similar inpersonality.
Man, effective coaching showed me how a different leader at a different time and placeneeds to approach things differently.
(27:59):
It was amazing to me how often I would go into a session, he would say, here's what I'mgonna talk about.
And I'm like,
I got four pieces of advice.
We didn't even need to have this session.
And by the end of the session, I'd be like, yeah, yep, five years ago, I was right.
Not anymore.
People have changed, systems have changed, churches have changed, times have changed.
And so that, more than anything, taught me to really tamp down my own advice.
(28:22):
Because if I can't give good, quick advice to a successor of mine who's serving the samechurch, who's very similar in personality,
It was an incredibly humbling experience that made me a better coach because so often I'dbe like, yeah, no, what I did when I was there would not work for you.
You're a different leader and it's a different...
Every youth pastor listening right now, or youth minister listening who has a seniorpastor who used to be in youth ministry is feeling the words you're saying and wishing
(28:50):
that their senior pastor would have the same revelation because there's a lot of advicegiven.
yeah.
And, you know, I think part of where I learned that lesson was with my senior pastor atthe time, who stylistically was very different than me, but who could name it, right?
Who said, you and I are not gonna do things the same way.
(29:12):
That's fine.
I wanna make sure that we have a shared set of values of what's important.
And like that, that's been super helpful even in like doing coaching work.
I mean, like, look, don't, don't focus on, on what they're doing.
Don't focus on the method as the coach, keep an eye on their mission, what theirarticulated mission is.
(29:33):
and when you think about it that way, when, when you realize that, like it changes, itchanges you and it makes you a better coach and the transformation, the growth that people
have when they figure out what they want to do, when it's their idea, when they have thebuy-in.
It's night and day difference.
Yeah.
You've talked about a lot of things in regard to coaching and you and I have talked a loteven outside of this of counting your own skill set and your background.
(29:57):
Why you, but you've spent so much of your time in coaching, being a coach, becoming abetter coach.
Why?
Why is that such a big deal for you personally?
So there's kind of two reasons.
So anybody who is familiar with Simon Sinek's Start With Why, like I am a big fan of that.
(30:20):
And I couldn't answer that question until I listened to that book.
And I was out for a walk one morning and I'm like, what is my why?
And what I came down to is I want every person I meet and know to know two things, to knowthat they are valued and capable.
And what I've learned about coaching is that coaching does those things so well for mebecause in a coaching session, they are valued.
(30:47):
I am taking time, right?
I am spending time with this person in exclusive one-on-one conversation, but it's thatcapable part, right?
Of like, like, no, you, you don't need my advice.
Maybe, maybe some finishing touches.
need my advice.
You don't need my advice.
You need somebody.
who's gonna push you and encourage you along the way.
(31:10):
And coaching for me really sums up that valued and capable.
that's, it's really how I find that I can instill that value of mine, my why, the best forthem.
I think the broader, the more theological question, right, is like, like I, I'm, becauseof my story, physics major, ending up in ministry, right, discernment's a huge thing for
(31:34):
And when I asked for advice on just where to go to seminary, I talked to three differentgroups of people and I got three profoundly different answers.
Not similar, incompatible answers.
And I remember thinking, all of these people are wise and want the best for me.
(31:56):
What the heck is going on?
Like no one was trying to lead me astray.
All these people affirmed my call to ministry and said, yes, we see it, we affirm it, thisis what you should do.
And I thought back on that experience a lot because the answer and what fixed it wasactually the third person I went to who said, why is it that you go into seminary?
(32:17):
I said, because I wanna be a pastor.
He said, okay, what do you mean by that?
I said, look, I wanna teach people and I wanna care for people.
He said, okay, if that's what you want, here's where you should go, right?
And it ended up being good advice, but it's good advice because he asked me what I wantedand reflected in my sense of call.
And so in that respect, right?
(32:37):
I think coaching as a modality gives a lot of room for Holy Spirit driven conversationthat I don't want to talk bad about consulting and teaching.
do a lot of that stuff, right?
But man, in those conversations, when that other person is thinking and the two of you areworking hard,
(32:58):
Like, there are moments where you see, like literally, visually see, and I'm Presbyterian,I am not a charismatic guy.
So when I say what I'm about to say, I am not messing around, because I am adyed-in-the-wool Presbyterian.
You see the transformation happen in front of you.
(33:19):
You see where through you the spirit is broken through.
There's a new insight, there's a new awareness that they have gained, and they are not thesame.
And I've seen that happen enough that it's happened to me enough over I've been coachedLike I'll never forget.
I went into a coaching session.
I was leaving my last church.
I was an emotional wreck and we're 25 minutes in and finally my coach looks at me and Ijust said a lot I was like I need this departure to not be all about me
(33:50):
Hmm.
And it was, you know, again, not saw scales from the eyes on the road to Damascus, but itwas completely orientation shaping.
I was like, my gosh, coach didn't tell me that.
Yeah.
she fired great questions that maybe got me there.
But I came out of that being like, man, that was not, and so, you know, that's really isthat for me, that modality lets me uphold my values the best.
(34:20):
And for me, it's where I've seen the Spirit work and change people that has transformedministries.
How do you think personally, I mean you've been a coach for a long time, if you were tosay for yourself personally, I love the why, I love all those things, what kind of things
have you seen, how has it forced you to grow yourself?
Like what have you learned about yourself as a coach?
(34:42):
think the number one thing that being a coach teaches you is humility.
Man, there are so many times, and there's a difference in coaching between not thinkingthings and not saying things.
We can't help but think things of what we would do.
That's fine.
Right?
That is, you're not gonna go off that.
What did it, so many times I've been wrong.
(35:06):
I was like, this is where we're gonna end up.
I'm two minutes in, we're talking, I'm like, this is all you need to do.
Come on, we could save time.
And at the end I'm like, that's not where we ended up at all.
And I think that's the most thing it's changed for me, is just this profound sense ofhumility and realizing that what a lot of people need, a lot of people, what we do a lot
(35:29):
in ministry, and we mean it well, is when colleagues and friends of ours are gettingbeaten up.
And that happens, right?
It happens at big churches, small churches, conservative churches, progressive churches.
There's not a church I've been connected to where people don't get beat up.
And sometimes they get beat up because they do something dumb.
Sometimes they get beat up because they're in a system that's rough and is not functioningin a healthy way.
(35:51):
All those things can be true at the same time.
And what we want to do is we want to say, look, you are good.
You are good at ministry.
I don't know what's wrong with them.
End of the day, that's not helpful.
It's not helpful.
Whereas helping them identify the agency they do have in a situation That's what that'swhat helps people people figure it out.
(36:14):
Sometimes the answer is get out Right.
Sometimes the answer is this is an intractable situation That you need to leave right andso for me I think one of the frustrations so so Marco who you know and I know one of the
things that Marco taught me I know he wasn't original but I give him credit for every timesaid Brian
(36:35):
Every situation, find your 10 % where you responsible for the situation you're in.
And you know, even if it's 90 % of the other person's fault, even if it's 90 % your churchis treating you like crap, whatever, you probably have a 10 % unless it's literally you
are powerless and being abused.
There are always exceptions, but in most situations you can find 90 % of where you do haveagency.
(36:58):
it coaching really helps people claim that in a way that I think is healthier than just
What we want to do is want to give people a hug and say, look, I love you.
I'm sorry you're going through this.
But what's better is after a 30 minute hard conversation to say, love you.
I know this is hard.
You're going to get through this and look at this.
You already figured out a plan.
(37:20):
So it helps me affirm people in a that doesn't just feel emotionally empty.
I'm like, I can't believe it.
I feel so bad for you.
there's a place for that.
But I like it even more when it's like, I feel bad for you.
But man, you got a plan.
Go do your plan.
Let's figure it out if this will work or not.
Yeah, it's one of the things that I realized in the weekend that we did for thecertification, that initial cohort weekend.
(37:48):
I remember telling my wife, I remember telling Sarah when it was back, or even while wewere there calling, I think I could look back the last 24 years of student ministry and I
could think of specific moments in times where I'm like, man, I wish I had known then.
(38:09):
and had access to a coach at that time in that season.
Because what I found in that weekend is I was talking about things that I was dealing withat the time that were very much tied to me not really having worked through and had done
counseling, okay, but had not worked through some of those things on a professional levelto really understand why things were happening now the way they were at the time.
(38:36):
And I just, think,
What I love about the coaching process even, which I don't, again, don't know that I hadthought much about, is very scalable in the sense that I could have been a youth pastor
with 10 kids in my youth group.
Coaching would help me.
I could be a youth pastor with a hundred thousand kids in my youth group.
(38:59):
Coaching would help me.
And because it's client driven, it's always relevant.
Yep, it's client driven and it's context independent, right?
It does not depend on a given context.
Yeah, yeah.
It was, was, again, I've said it, I'll say it again.
It's so helpful for me.
Yeah.
I think the thing, the thing we're coaching could come in.
(39:21):
So if people are listening and are like, wait, like, like, do I need a coach?
It is, is, would now be a good time for me to engage.
I think we're coaching is often best utilized is when someone feels stuck.
Like that, that's kind of the magic.
It's not magic.
That's to me, somewhat the most applicable thing of like, just feel stuck.
(39:44):
Coaches good at getting people unstuck, right?
If you have a very clear idea of what you want next in ministry, I think a coach can behelpful in those situations, but often the coaching is most helpful in determining what is
going to be next, getting you unstuck, right?
(40:06):
Where I think consulting, just to give an example where I would actually go consultingover coaching.
When I had been at the church that I was at in my...
eighth year going into my ninth year.
To be fully blunt, I was bored.
I'd been there for eight years, nine years.
At this point, I got the youngest siblings of the oldest youth group kids I had are now inmy high school group.
(40:26):
I have moved whole family systems through.
Sunday night is bumping along.
We fixed some major challenges there.
Things are healthy, going well.
And I'm like, I really love this.
and I really have a clear sense I'm supposed to stay here, but man, I need people who aresmarter and have seen systems like this to give me some ideas.
(40:48):
Then we brought in consultants.
And in that process, the consulting was really helpful, because they did the four days oflistening and the endless questionnaires I had to fill out.
And then they came to us with that stuff, and then the question was, okay, what are yourinsights?
Now let's coach you through how you implement.
(41:09):
Right?
So sometimes coaching is a follow-up to consulting.
it could be really helpful, right?
But if I had backed up and been like, man, like I, I feel stuck things are not working.
I need to chart a new course.
Right.
And that's actually thinking back on it at the seven year mark.
That was where actually the coaching was really helpful.
(41:30):
Working with the coach.
Cause that helped me figure out what I needed to do.
Right?
So if you're at a place where things are bumping along and you're rolling
and you're like, okay, how do I not crash this plane?
That may be more of a consulting question.
But if you feel stuck and things are not quite lining up, that's a great coachingquestion.
Yeah, I think back to that, again, that weekend, I spent most of the sessions kind oftalking through something that I was just stuck on.
(41:56):
stuck, maybe not stuck.
I couldn't figure it out.
Like, I think I could identify, hey, here's the problem.
This is what's going on.
This is what I'm doing.
I just don't know why.
And I don't know how to get past it.
So maybe that is stuck.
But I could articulate it.
And it was ridiculously helpful.
So helpful, right?
(42:17):
I don't know that I would have kind of been able to figure that out without the coachingand without the weekend with the process.
And again, we were learning together, you know, kind of coaching at all.
yeah.
I mean, the guy you worked with is not an expert coach.
Right?
Just start now.
10 minutes before the first session probably.
(42:39):
It was great.
again, awesome guy, man.
Turned out to be just a great thing.
Ryan, I want to be mindful of your time.
So I think there's two kinds of people listening.
One is maybe you're listening and you're thinking, gosh, I'd like to look into what itlooks like to become a certified coach.
what's the best way for them to do that?
(43:01):
Yeah.
So the coaching world is full of all kinds of different programs, trainings,opportunities.
Like everyone's kind of got their thing, right?
We at the National Association of Youth Ministry Certification, which is the youth cartelstraining wing, we're the same, right?
Just going to be blunt, we're the same.
We developed our own program from the ground up.
(43:24):
But, but here's what I would say.
When you get into the coaching world, a lot of coaching
training is designed for executive coaches for business.
On one level, there's nothing wrong with that.
The skill set should be the same.
The basic approach should be the same.
But I do think there's a different foundation that we're working with in a ministrysetting that can be helpful to have that perspective inform the training you're doing.
(43:51):
And so what we try and do with the training that these cartel sponsors through theassociation.
is we try and do two things.
We try and align the training that we do with what the International Coach Federation,which is the international accrediting body for coaching, does.
And as you know, those eight competencies that you guys had to learn and reword, those arethe standard competencies that people around the world learn in the coaching world.
(44:17):
The thing about it is that to go through the ICF program, to go through an InternationalCoach Federation accredited program.
is a lot of hours, 65 classroom hours, it's 100 coaching hours, a lot of which have to bepaid, like I think 80 % paid.
And you have to go through a program called Mentor Coaching.
So you're instantly talking about thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to get tothat first level.
(44:41):
The program that we do, I think, is a good intro.
It's a good intro to coaching.
It gets you some basic core skills, and then it lets you figure out whether, okay,
I want to take this to the next level.
It's worth putting three, four, five, six, seven, $10,000 in to being trained through aICF program.
(45:04):
nope, this is a helpful skillset, glad I have it, but I'm not going to put more into it.
That's what I think the value of our training is, is that we, is it's intentionallydesigned to be an intro program.
We do give you a certificate, a certification that says you've done it and you'vecompleted the supervised part of it, right?
It's not just training.
I actually get to hear you coach, we debrief it, so I know that you're at least base levelcompetent in what you're doing.
(45:29):
But that to me is the difference, is that we intentionally engage in ministry perspectiveand we align ourselves with the International Coach Federation so that you're well set up
if down the road you want to do more.
And so that's my best synopsis of what I think makes our program kind of unique in thecoaching space and it's more affordable.
(45:50):
Yeah.
And if they wanted to find more information on that, where's the best place to go?
The best place to go is actually go to the Youth Cartel's website or go to ymcert.com andyou can find information in both those places about this certification.
That's great.
And then if you want, if you're listening and you want coaching, there's options there,right?
(46:16):
Obviously Brian is a great coach.
You coach me.
We didn't mention that, but so we've done coaching path post certification.
would do that.
You can go to thelongerhaul.com.
There's a get coaching spot at the top and grab that and sign up for the discovery call.
We can chat through that.
That's probably the easiest place to start since you're listening to the podcast already.
(46:38):
and then kind of go from there.
Again, I think having an idea of what you would hope to get from coaching will help youregardless of the direction you go.
So you're not just kind of, eh, I didn't have anything else to spend my money on.
So throwing my conference dollars at this.
And so we'll go from that.
Brian, any last thoughts or anything that I didn't ask that I should have?
(47:03):
nothing that comes to mind right away.
think the only point that I would like would drive home again is like the, the, beauty ofcoaching is that, oftentimes you don't realize how much you needed it until you've done
it.
And so like, would encourage your listeners, particularly, right?
Like if they've been listening to the podcast for a while, they don't mean they don't knowme from, from a hole in the wall.
They've listened to you.
(47:24):
Right.
And even if you're sitting there and you're like, man, I don't know, like try it.
Right?
Like give it a shot.
30 minutes, no commitment, no money.
Just find out if it might be a fit.
I've, you know, I've worked with coaches on and off for over a decade now and easily beensome of the most transformative stuff.
It was a little awkward at first, like, okay, what, this going to be?
(47:47):
But now like, as I said, I like coaching so much.
I have two people who I work with in different areas.
Right.
And so yeah, that's my
Like if you've never tried it, give it a shot.
It really can be transformative in your ministry and in a real, a real good way to, to, tobecome more, more, more discernibly empowered is what I would say is what I love about the
(48:10):
coaching process.
Yeah, and you can vouch that I don't suck at it.
So that's always up.
have listened to your calls.
I can attest that you know your competencies and you execute them well.
I was nervous about this.
I told my wife, said, so I'm interviewing Brian today for the podcast talking aboutcoaching.
I'm really nervous he's going to ask me more questions than I ask him and I'm to tobearing my soul on the podcast.
(48:35):
We'll see, actually, so what I was thinking is that if it was slow going, I'd just belike, okay, Jody, what do you wanna talk about today?
And our listeners could then listen to us do a coaching session live.
horrifying, right?
Yeah, maybe another day.
(48:55):
And again, not a great use of coaching because part of coaching is cultivating trust andsafety.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
doing a coaching but but yeah
If you're listening, you've listened this far, here's what I'll say to you.
Again, I'd love for you to look into coaching.
I'd love to come alongside you and help you if I can and work through that.
If that's something you're able to willing to do.
(49:15):
But beyond that, even if it's not me, I can, I just can't express enough how much valueand help coaching has been for me.
And so finding a coach, particularly one who's been certified, who's not just going togive you advice like we've talked about is going to be really important for you and really
helpful.
And so
Again, if you're interested in that, head to thelongerhall.com, it's the top of the pagethere, get coaching, you can kind of set that up.
(49:39):
Otherwise, we'll put links for the youth cartel and for the youth ministry certificationthere in the notes as well.
So if you're interested in that, you can go check those things out.
Brian, thank you so much, man.
I know you're a busy guy.
Appreciate you coming on and for putting up with me now all these months.
So.
great to great to be on.
And always good to talk about coaching and because as you said, there's a lot of folks outthere who are like, yeah, I'm a coach, I'm a coach.
(50:08):
But what they really want to do is give you advice and say their book.
And so that's that's my just as you look into the coaching world, there is some duediligence and caution that I would encourage.
But I can vouch that Jody knows this stuff.
All right, take care.
you later.
All right, bye-bye.
(50:29):
Hey, well there you have it.
Just again, great conversation.
I appreciate Brian so much.
Listen, I would love to talk to you more about what it might look like for you to get somehelp and take advantage of some coaching.
If that is something that you're interested in and think that you would be helpful foryou, wherever you are in whatever your context is, again, you can jump in, just a 30
(50:53):
minute conversation and kind of see if that's a good fit or not.
Head to thelongerhaul.com.
There underneath the menu, you'll see it.
a get coaching option, you can jump in and look at that.
There'll be a link for that in the show notes as well.
But even if not, man, listen, we want you to thrive.
I want you to do well where you are.
I want you to succeed.
I want you to love what you're doing.
I think and believe that coaching can be a real impact for you in that.
(51:16):
Again, for me, even as a part of the process, being coached, coming out of that, havecontinued to have some coaching myself, just been an incredible blessing in my ministry
and my life.
And so I'm not, this isn't just a sales pitch.
This isn't me just trying to kind of jump in and get you to do something else.
I really think it's something that can be helpful for you.
(51:36):
So be sure to head over to thelongerhaul.com and look for that get coaching option thereunderneath the menu.
Jump on the schedule that called.
Love to chat with you on that.
Again, all the show notes today over at thelongerhaul.com slash episode 138,thelongerhaul.com slash episode 138.
Make sure you're subscribed, following the show.
Jump into that Facebook group over there.
(51:58):
and get on the mailing list.
Listen, some great, great episodes coming down the pipe here.
If you didn't hear the last one, we talked to Zach Wyatt about loneliness in youthministry, which is an incredible problem that is pervasive.
And so make sure you go back and listen to that one.
Good ones coming up here in the next couple of weeks as well, over the next few weeks.
So make sure you are back here listening.
(52:20):
anyway, thanks again for tuning in today.
We will catch you in the next episode.
I think coaching as a modality gives a lot of room for Holy Spirit driven conversationthat I don't want to talk bad about consulting and teaching.
do a lot of that stuff, right?
But man, in those conversations, when that other person is thinking and the two of you areworking hard,
Like, there are moments where you see, like literally, visually see, and I'm Presbyterian,I am not a charismatic guy.
(00:25):
So when I say what I'm about to say, I am not messing around, because I am adyed-in-the-wool Presbyterian.
You see the transformation happen in front of you.
You see where through you the spirit is broken through.
There's a new insight, there's a new awareness that they have gained, and they are not thesame.
(00:46):
Well, hey, hey, everybody.
Welcome to the show today.
Thanks for tuning in and listening wherever you are and wherever this finds you.
Thanks for making this podcast today a part of your day.
it's your first time checking out show, man, welcome.
I'm excited for you to jump on.
I picked a doozy, I think, to jump in here.
If you're coming back, man, welcome on back.
(01:08):
Thanks for being a part of the Longer Haul community.
Today, jumping on with my good friend Brian Wallace, who, as you'll hear,
He's just a phenomenal guy.
Loves youth ministry, loves ministry in general, specifically loves coming alongside andhelping ministers and pastors kind of find out what's next and work through some things.
(01:31):
I have told a lot of folks over the last few months that one of the most impactful thingsthat I think I've ever done in the last 20, 25 years
was pursuing a Youth Ministry coaching certification.
Brian is one of the guys who kind of helps lead the charge on that.
It'd be hard to express how helpful it was for me, both personally and professionally.
(01:55):
You'll hear me even, I mentioned that in the interview today.
So if you're kind of feeling a little bit stuck or you've been just curious aboutcoaching, what it looks like, what it is, what it could potentially do for you, how it
could help you.
or even maybe if you've thought about becoming a certified youth ministry coach yourself,today will be a great episode for you.
I think even if it's not something that's on your radar right now, just some really goodhelpful things that are shared in this interview today.
(02:22):
So don't jump over, don't skip past, really take the time to listen today.
Great interview, great conversation.
Brian's such a great guy.
Appreciate him so much and his time for coming on.
Hey listen, if you're not subscribed to the show or following the show,
Wherever you listen, make sure you do that.
Jump over to the SuperSecret Podcast group over on Facebook as well.
Make sure you head over to Longer Hall.
Jump on the mailing list there.
(02:43):
Show notes today will be at thelongerhall.com slash episode 138.
Longerhall.com slash episode 138.
So make sure you head over there as well.
Again, great interview today.
Excited to jump in.
Know you'll appreciate hearing it.
So with all that said and out of the way, here's today's interview with Brian Wallace.
(03:21):
Well, hey, Brian, thanks for jumping on today.
Appreciate your time.
I know you're busy guy.
Got a lot going on.
So we're going to tackle kind of this topic of coaching today, which I'm excited totackle.
But before we jump in, maybe just take a minute, introduce yourself a little bit aboutyour background, what you do now, and how you got there.
(03:42):
Yep.
So I am a ordained Presbyterian pastor.
That was not Plan A in life.
Plan A in life was a physics major and a computer science major.
That's story for another time.
But finished.
Yeah, I know, right?
It's very similar.
So finished my undergrad degree, but went straight to seminary and then then was ordained,served a church here in Pittsburgh, about 20 minutes outside of downtown, medium sized
(04:06):
congregation, kind of pretty typical associate job.
What?
80 % of it was youth ministry.
So with youth group camp summer stuff, helping out with, you know, children's ministrystuff here and there, did that for a while.
Got connected with Marco, with Marco striker and the youth cartel through some of theirprograms.
And then was asked by Marco to step in and develop their coaching training.
(04:28):
I'd gone through a previous version of the training and initially I was super hesitantabout it, about developing it.
Like didn't think I really had the skills and the knowledge and the background.
but,
did some reflection on kind of my own gifting and skills and strengths and realized that Ihad a lot of opinions about coaching.
What was good coaching and what wasn't?
And so I did.
(04:48):
then since then, I've continued kind of my own coaching training.
I've done stuff with the International Coach Federation, logged over 300 hours at thispoint of like documented coaching work.
A lot of that comes from my day job, depending on people's familiarity with thePresbyterian world.
Our presbyteries are like our regional associations and I'm on staff with our regionalassociation here in Pittsburgh.
(05:11):
We work with about 120 churches, 300 pastors, 20,000 members, all concentrated in onecounty.
And so been in that role for eight years.
just the short version is I use coaching skills every single day because I don't know 120churches that well.
I don't know all of our pastors.
But I have to go into situations where I'm working with committees and pastors and walkwith them without knowing a lot of information.
(05:38):
And that's where coaching skills come in so helpful because it's a given approach thatworks really well in most of those situations.
Not all.
We'll talk more about that.
So in addition to the like to my actual coaching work with Youth Cartel doing the trainingprogram for them, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not thinking, OK, what are the
questions I need to be asking in this situation?
(05:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I, we met through that program and jumped into that and have done that this year.
And we've talked about that.
I was hesitant to jump into that for a million of reasons that probably another time.
and I have found myself, I don't know how many, I mean, every time I talk about it topeople, I tell them easily the best thing I've done for myself, both personally and
(06:22):
professionally, probably in the last 20 years.
I mean outside of my formal education,
practically and personally just incredibly, incredibly impactful and beneficial for me.
And I will say, and I think this is probably true for the whole cohort that I was with,which I'm guessing is similar for all.
I think I misunderstood what coaching was going in.
(06:45):
Like think I had an idea of what it was gonna be.
And my hope and goal and my motivation was I want to be able to help coach my staff betteron my team.
and volunteers, I wanted to, and I wanted to be able to utilize that as a skillset throughthe podcast and through the longer haul.
That's kind of my motivation going in.
I don't think I realized how impactful it was going to be across every area of my life andfor sure didn't quite understand what it is.
(07:12):
So maybe to kind of put us all on the same page for those listening, could you just kindof define what you would call, what you would say coaching is?
Yeah.
So what, so coaching is similar or has connections to a lot of different things that we'reused to consulting, spiritual direction, mentoring, teaching, et cetera.
The thing that really sets coaching apart is coaching is a coachee or for the sake ofthis, call me this client.
(07:38):
I know some people like struggle with that word, but in the coaching world, that's what weuse, right?
It it's client directed.
So unlike consulting where
And by the way, I've worked with some really good consultants.
Like I'm not talking bad about consulting.
I've worked with great ones.
I've done consulting work, but unlike consulting where a consultant comes in and gathers alot of information and then makes recommendations.
(07:59):
The idea behind coaching is that you assume that the client, the coachee, the personyou're talking to, they are the expert in their given situation.
And so your job is to lead them through a process where they do the work, right?
So you are walking the like you're walking alongside them, but
you need to know to be an effective coach actually very little about their context.
(08:21):
And, but the difference is that you also have to be a little bit more neutral, right?
So consultant is going to try and say, here's what I think you should do.
Right.
In coaching, there's really not a place for that.
That that's not, you can have that thought, but that's an inner thought in the coachingsetting.
The coaching setting is how do I help this person discover in the more secular world, ourworld, how do I help this person discern faithfully?
(08:46):
their next step.
And so we talk about ministry coaching specifically, that's the difference, right?
We're not hoping that they discover or decide, we're hoping that they discern.
And in that sense, coaching in the way we approach it is really an exercise indiscernment, right?
Where two or more are gathered.
We believe that this is approach, a conversational technique that helps people discernwell.
(09:09):
To stress, it is a technique, right?
And there are others and there are other really valid ways of doing things.
But the
big difference and Jody, you've been through the program is a coaching conversation startsout like this.
So what would you like to talk about today?
And they tell you, and the coach operates out of this position of saying, okay, unless Iam confused, I don't ask context questions because they know the answers, right?
(09:34):
Unless I'm not tracking.
I try and stay away from context.
And so on the one hand, coaching is the opposite of consulting or whereas consulting is alot of data followed by recommendations.
Coaching says, look, you're the expert.
You're the expert.
I'm gonna walk with you.
We're gonna talk this through, right?
And a lot of people will say that, hey, I just need to talk this through with someone,right?
(09:56):
And what I think really sets coaching apart, and I think particularly in ministry contextthat you run and that I run, we do a lot of here's my book, come to our conference,
download the information, and then apply it.
And that is good, right?
I'm not, again, not critiquing that, but.
The difference with coaching is that the coaching coaching is much more of a listening andfacilitating model as opposed to a understanding and recommending model.
(10:25):
And two of the things that we talk about, right?
Two, there's, there's eight things that a coach is supposed to do, but two of the onesthat are really important is active listening and facilitating awareness, right?
Like, like you are not telling them what they need to know.
And that's the thing that a lot of people, you're not at all alone.
A lot of folks who come into our program are like, you know, I've been in student ministryfor 15 years.
(10:46):
I know all this stuff.
I've had all these experiences.
Like I want to help people better.
And we're like, that's great.
And that's not what this program is.
Yeah, I remember and I still in my head say this even as I'm books now, you guys keptsaying trust the process.
(11:06):
Because so the way the program worked and works is for us we were there for a weekendessentially and it's just kind of all day for several days, learn, go coach, learn, go
coach and kind of paired up with somebody.
through that and you had us coach several sessions through maybe a professional kind ofconcern, we'll call it that, or ministry concern.
(11:33):
And then the last one was more of a personal, I think.
so coaching kind of spans across the topic.
And I remember sitting there being coached by an awesome guy in our program who waslearning just like me and...
And who knew how much about your context?
(11:54):
Nothing, there you go.
Right, right.
we're not the same, like, I don't even think we're from the same theological background.
Like, you know, draw the lines.
He's not serving as a youth pastor.
He just works with Institute of So, but a phenomenal guy.
And I remember thinking as the week went, holy moly, like, this is working, like, really,really well.
(12:19):
And then I felt like I got picked on a lot.
in the sessions because I, if you know me, I have opinions about a lot of things and not alot of patients.
And then coming out of that, I have kind of continued to remind myself, okay, just trustthe process.
And then we had to do, I think six hours, right, of coaching for the certification.
(12:40):
And even in that process for me, coaching a guy, watching him grow across those six hourswas amazing.
And the hardest thing is not giving advice.
And here's the thing that still drives me crazy.
(13:01):
I don't get to ask about what we talked about last time unless they bring it up.
Right?
And so you want to know, but you can't ask unless they say it.
So I think I was really interested.
It was really interesting to me how the process played out.
And so I say that because
I think there's those listening that go, I think I just want advice.
(13:21):
And I'll tell you, even the things that I talked about in that weekend, I'd been givenlots of advice about those things from a lot of people.
None of it was particularly bad, but it really wasn't until I sat across from a guy whowas just asking me really great questions and making me answer for myself that I really
came away with some pretty clear direction.
(13:45):
It was awesome.
It was awesome.
I think one of the unique things about coaching and like, not only do I train coaches, notonly do I do coaching, I currently have not one, but two one-on-one coaches who I utilize.
And, and I say that because I think sometimes our desire, particularly in ministry isactually a healthy one, at least has very good intent to say, I need the input of others.
(14:12):
I need others wisdom.
I don't know enough of this, right?
And that is a good impulse.
But the thing is, like even biblically speaking, right?
Like, can you imagine Peter trying to give Paul advice on doing ministry with theGentiles, right?
It's not gonna work.
It's not gonna work because the context is so different.
(14:34):
so we see in that sense, and what I've learned is that usually I go into my sessions whereI'm being coached.
I'm like, I have no idea.
I need to talk.
And my coach is a great guy.
He's like, well, just start talking.
What's been going on?
And an hour later I'm done.
And like, I look at my notes, I got a page full of notes.
There are all kinds of insights, thoughts, conclusions.
(14:56):
And my coach will say, stop, write that down.
Stop, write that down.
It's not stuff he's saying, it's stuff I'm saying.
He's drawing it out of me though, right?
He's not sitting there like a bump in the log.
He is active and engaged, he's fighting questions.
I mean, he's, you know, gently challenging me and saying, okay, say more, right?
Like I've heard you say this before, but now you're saying this, show me where those lineup.
(15:16):
And I'm like, that's a thought.
So it's not passive, but he is really kind of sitting back and letting me drive.
And in that sense, the only analogy, there's not a good analogy, but I just taught my 16year old to drive and that 17 year old.
And the only analogy that I've come up for coaching is you were in the passenger seatsaying, okay, if this is where you want to go, let's ask this question.
(15:39):
Let's turn right, right?
Yeah, that's good.
Or if you want to go right, it's not perfect analogy, but that's the difference is thatyou're sitting in the passenger seat along for the ride, is there figuring it
How would you explain, explain for the listener, because I would imagine someone listeningto you talk about that, especially how you just described it, is sitting there thinking,
this sounds a lot more like counseling.
(16:01):
Yeah, that's a great.
Yep.
That is a great question.
So the easiest difference is this, that coaching is really at its best, like forwardfocused, right?
It's on identifying, discerning, imagining even a different future or a new future, right?
(16:21):
Counseling tends to be more, how do I deal with the stuff in my life, past and present?
so that I can be healthier in the future.
There are, you end up crossing over and this is where it gets tricky, right?
Because one of my, in fact, we're doing a training right now and I was talking this weekabout emotional center questions, right?
(16:43):
How do you in coaching engage people's emotions?
And the question comes up, it's like, yeah, but if I ask somebody, how does that make themfeel?
Like that feels like a counseling question, right?
And.
And my response was twofold.
One was kind of flippant, which is, look, therapists do not have the monopoly on askingpeople about their emotions.
(17:03):
Normal people are allowed to ask about emotions too, but very careful is that if youimmediately pick up that this person is trying to sort out their pain in a conversation
with me, then we're out, right?
That is not my specialty.
And part of what I love is I'm not trained as a therapist, so I cannot do it, right?
(17:23):
So I don't know how to do that.
And so, I actually don't have a lot of trouble avoiding the temptation to do it because Idon't know how to do it.
Like, I don't know what the end goal is.
So, but, but what I've learned is if I think there's an issue that someone's reallystruggling with, I will say it's particularly if I know that they're seeing a therapist,
(17:45):
I'll ask, look, have you talked to your therapist about this?
If their answer is yes, I'll say, okay, what did they say?
What came out of that conversation?
Right.
Keeping it forward directed.
helps you stay out of that lane.
It helps you stay in the right lane of not getting into counseling.
Because anything in the ministry world, we don't want to do what we're not trained andequipped and qualified to do.
(18:08):
But the key is future, future-focused identifying a future path versus dealing withpresent reality, pain, challenges, relational struggles, internal struggles, et cetera.
Yeah.
So let's talk then a little bit about what a coaching process would look like for someone.
So someone listening is saying, hmm, okay, this sounds interesting.
(18:29):
Maybe something I should do or want to do.
They reach out for coaching either to me or to you or someone else.
Usually at least this is kind of where I've landed so far.
starts with like a short little discovery call of some kind to make sure it's a goodmatch, kind of identifying some areas or goals.
(18:49):
And then you get into the first kind of session.
You mentioned earlier it starts with a basic question.
What do you want to talk about?
From there then, what does that look like?
Yeah.
So, and you've recapped it really well, right?
One of the first things to know is that not every coach is a fit for every leader, right?
There are, there are, it's like anything, there are bad fits.
(19:10):
And so exactly to your point, in, in the, in 2023, I was enrolled in a program thatincluded coaching and I was sent a list of like 10 bios of people who I could pick from.
And I picked out a couple and I emailed them and I zeroed in one pretty quick.
And I was like, I think this is the right one.
But as you said, we had a 30 minute phone call, no money changed hands, there was nocontractor agreement signed.
(19:32):
It was strictly let me find out about you, you find out about me.
And it goes both ways, right?
I have been in situations where people have reached out to me for coaching.
I've had the initial call and been like, nah, not gonna work, right?
For whatever reason, and that's fine.
But I think the thing, especially people who are interested in being coached, finding thatfit is critical.
And it's totally appropriate to be like, I'm really grateful for your time.
(19:55):
don't think that this is a fit, right?
And most likely if the coach is good, they'll be like, yeah, it's kind of thinking thesame thing, right?
Like you can tell there needs to be just a level of comfort because one of the coachingcompetencies cultivates trust and safety.
And if in whatever, in that first conversation, that trust and safety isn't there, youshould not be coached by that person.
Just full stop.
(20:15):
You don't even have to have a good reason.
You can just be like, nope, I've had people, I've tried to pair people for stuff andthey've been like, Brian, it's a no.
And I'm like, okay.
Like, don't ask.
So I that's the biggest thing is not to underscore, like, like not to sell short the valueof the fit piece.
I think the big thing for coaching is, is if you're going to go into it, you've got tokind of figure out what it is you want out of it.
(20:41):
If you're just like, I'm struggling.
Okay.
Maybe the coaching question is, I don't know why I'm struggling, but I need to figure itout.
Right.
Because I can't.
I can't move forward in ministry right now because I don't know what's holding me back.
Right.
And that may be a coachable question.
It may not, you know, it may find out, no, you are dealing with personal battles anddemons that are not coachable.
(21:05):
They require other forms of intervention and responses.
That's fine.
The outcome of one coaching session I did six, like we signed up for six sessions at theend of two, the guy was like, you know what?
Forget it.
Like I know what I needed to do.
And it's not coaching is like I've
put off seeing a therapist because I don't want to be unbroken.
Coaching has shown me I'm broken.
(21:26):
I need to get a therapist, right?
Future-focus, this is what I need to do, but that guy, we canceled, refunded in the lastfour sessions, and off he went, you know, to see a therapist.
But that's the thing, it's kind of a big picture, but then also to understand, like, eachsession, we tend to, in our brainstorming, least I do, off way more than we can chew.
(21:49):
People are like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this.
And anyone who's listening who's ever gone to any youth ministry conference knows you sitthere for four days and you come back and you have so many notes, right?
And then the parent who's supposed to bring snack doesn't show up on Sunday night andeverything you learned is out the window because there's no snack, right?
The difference in coaching is that it is an ongoing process over time.
(22:14):
And what happens so often is like, I'll go into
a session with my coach and you know under the auspices of or in a situation that that I'min now I was provided coaching because I was in a new role and this new role is part of
the payment for it a coach was included right so the big picture was to help me be aneffective leader in this transitional season that was it then under that kind of bigger
(22:41):
framework each session I was like okay I got a big meeting coming up in March I want totalk through that I got a big presentation in September I want to talk to that
We got to figure out what to do with this.
I want to talk to that all under that bigger umbrella, right?
But the best thing is there was one session where I started talking and I didn't talkabout any of that stuff.
Right, because there was something going on with me personally that day.
(23:03):
That was the most important thing, and I wasn't going to get to my preferred future untilI sorted that out.
And so the question in that meeting was what's next for you once you're out of thistransitional role?
That was not my radar, but it just came out naturally.
A good coach.
let me go, right?
He's like, and he asked me, is this what you want to keep talking about?
(23:24):
And was like, yeah, I know it's not what I said I wanted to talk about, but this is what'smost important today.
Okay, right.
Keep going.
Yep.
So yeah, and so that's the that's the thing is like, don't I think people come in and youneed to have an idea of where you're going, but you don't need to rigidly hold to
Yeah, no, I love that.
think, would you say that most sessions, and I'm asking for some clarification for thoselistening, most sessions are standalone, like you're saying, or do you kind of come in
(23:51):
with somebody and you're like, okay, we're to talk through this for the next six sessions?
You know, so at the end of the day, right, it is, it's really whatever the coach he bringsto that session.
And what's interesting and what you said, right, you do one session and three weeks later,four weeks later, you meet with them again and you're dying to know like how the meeting
go, how, like, how the conversation with the senior pastor go.
(24:14):
They're like, so today I want to talk about volunteer recruitment.
We're like, what?
Like, no, no, I want like, come on, give me the news.
And what's interesting so often is, you know, at the end of the session, I'll be like,Hey, look, you know, we talked with that.
What happened?
And they're like, yeah.
And it's been so long that it doesn't matter anymore.
(24:36):
It doesn't matter anymore.
They're like, yeah.
I talked to him.
was no big deal.
Or I got out of that coaching session.
I went in to talk to my, you know, my partner, my spouse, my volunteer, whatever.
And they told me it was a crappy idea.
So I didn't even bother.
Right.
And that's the thing about like,
The freedom in coaching is just, hey, whatever is that day?
Yeah, let's have a bigger picture, but whatever is that day, that's the most importantthing to talk.
(25:02):
How often does somebody sit in one of your coaching sessions and begin it by saying, helpme figure out how you do this?
So often, but not nearly as much anymore because I have become extremely diligent insetting clear expectations.
I tell people, so right now I'm serving as a one-on-one coach.
(25:22):
We have a next gen leaders cohort that were running.
We got 11 people from across our region.
I'm serving as a one-on-one coach for three of those folks.
And I sent them a document ahead of time.
I was like, this is gonna be the first question, right?
It doesn't stop them from asking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
stop them from asking.
(25:43):
But my people now have been really long enough that they know how to get around it and tryand trick me and be like, well, but, but what I think is important, right?
Is like, there is a spot in coaching for us to affirm people's own wisdom and insights.
That's what I love about it is cause sometimes I'll be like, look, I got ideas, but let'stalk about you first.
(26:07):
And so often
If I actually think by the time I'm done with a 30 minute, 45 minute coachingconversation, sometimes as the coach, I'm like, actually, I do have something that could
be helpful, but I wait, right?
I wait until the end.
And here's why, you give better advice the more you listen.
So if you jump in early, right?
If you're a couple minutes in and we'll pick volunteer recruitment, because a constanttheme, right?
(26:30):
And I'm like, I got all these ideas, et cetera, et cetera.
Your advice, even if you give it, isn't gonna be as good because you didn't listen.
Whereas if you give them 45 minutes for them to figure out their path, to be empowered,like, like to figure out what they're gonna do and they get passionate about, and you can
be like, hey, you bake the cake, here's like some sprinkles that might help.
(26:53):
Like it's so much more effective if we let people get the personal buy-in.
And just a quick example, there's so many things about this example that aren't a goodidea.
I'm gonna put all that out as a qualifier.
So.
A guy who's my direct successor at the church I served signed up to do one of the cohortgroups that I was one of the one-on-one coaches for.
(27:13):
And there were a couple of us working with the group and he said to me, he's like, I wantyou to be my one-on-one coach.
And I was like, for a lot of reasons, that's not good and here's why.
He goes, I understand all that.
I still want you to be my one-on-one coach because I trust you, et cetera.
So I went into that, I was like, this is gonna be really bad.
This is gonna be really bad.
(27:34):
What I learned from that experience of coaching somebody, and again, I would neverrecommend that.
I'd never recommend you coach a successor.
I would never recommend you coach a close friend.
So I'm putting those out there.
What I learned from that experience though, was same church, we're very similar inpersonality.
Man, effective coaching showed me how a different leader at a different time and placeneeds to approach things differently.
(27:59):
It was amazing to me how often I would go into a session, he would say, here's what I'mgonna talk about.
And I'm like,
I got four pieces of advice.
We didn't even need to have this session.
And by the end of the session, I'd be like, yeah, yep, five years ago, I was right.
Not anymore.
People have changed, systems have changed, churches have changed, times have changed.
And so that, more than anything, taught me to really tamp down my own advice.
(28:22):
Because if I can't give good, quick advice to a successor of mine who's serving the samechurch, who's very similar in personality,
It was an incredibly humbling experience that made me a better coach because so often I'dbe like, yeah, no, what I did when I was there would not work for you.
You're a different leader and it's a different...
Every youth pastor listening right now, or youth minister listening who has a seniorpastor who used to be in youth ministry is feeling the words you're saying and wishing
(28:50):
that their senior pastor would have the same revelation because there's a lot of advicegiven.
yeah.
And, you know, I think part of where I learned that lesson was with my senior pastor atthe time, who stylistically was very different than me, but who could name it, right?
Who said, you and I are not gonna do things the same way.
(29:12):
That's fine.
I wanna make sure that we have a shared set of values of what's important.
And like that, that's been super helpful even in like doing coaching work.
I mean, like, look, don't, don't focus on, on what they're doing.
Don't focus on the method as the coach, keep an eye on their mission, what theirarticulated mission is.
(29:33):
and when you think about it that way, when, when you realize that, like it changes, itchanges you and it makes you a better coach and the transformation, the growth that people
have when they figure out what they want to do, when it's their idea, when they have thebuy-in.
It's night and day difference.
Yeah.
You've talked about a lot of things in regard to coaching and you and I have talked a loteven outside of this of counting your own skill set and your background.
(29:57):
Why you, but you've spent so much of your time in coaching, being a coach, becoming abetter coach.
Why?
Why is that such a big deal for you personally?
So there's kind of two reasons.
So anybody who is familiar with Simon Sinek's Start With Why, like I am a big fan of that.
(30:20):
And I couldn't answer that question until I listened to that book.
And I was out for a walk one morning and I'm like, what is my why?
And what I came down to is I want every person I meet and know to know two things, to knowthat they are valued and capable.
And what I've learned about coaching is that coaching does those things so well for mebecause in a coaching session, they are valued.
(30:47):
I am taking time, right?
I am spending time with this person in exclusive one-on-one conversation, but it's thatcapable part, right?
Of like, like, no, you, you don't need my advice.
Maybe, maybe some finishing touches.
need my advice.
You don't need my advice.
You need somebody.
who's gonna push you and encourage you along the way.
(31:10):
And coaching for me really sums up that valued and capable.
that's, it's really how I find that I can instill that value of mine, my why, the best forthem.
I think the broader, the more theological question, right, is like, like I, I'm, becauseof my story, physics major, ending up in ministry, right, discernment's a huge thing for
(31:34):
And when I asked for advice on just where to go to seminary, I talked to three differentgroups of people and I got three profoundly different answers.
Not similar, incompatible answers.
And I remember thinking, all of these people are wise and want the best for me.
(31:56):
What the heck is going on?
Like no one was trying to lead me astray.
All these people affirmed my call to ministry and said, yes, we see it, we affirm it, thisis what you should do.
And I thought back on that experience a lot because the answer and what fixed it wasactually the third person I went to who said, why is it that you go into seminary?
(32:17):
I said, because I wanna be a pastor.
He said, okay, what do you mean by that?
I said, look, I wanna teach people and I wanna care for people.
He said, okay, if that's what you want, here's where you should go, right?
And it ended up being good advice, but it's good advice because he asked me what I wantedand reflected in my sense of call.
And so in that respect, right?
(32:37):
I think coaching as a modality gives a lot of room for Holy Spirit driven conversationthat I don't want to talk bad about consulting and teaching.
do a lot of that stuff, right?
But man, in those conversations, when that other person is thinking and the two of you areworking hard,
(32:58):
Like, there are moments where you see, like literally, visually see, and I'm Presbyterian,I am not a charismatic guy.
So when I say what I'm about to say, I am not messing around, because I am adyed-in-the-wool Presbyterian.
You see the transformation happen in front of you.
(33:19):
You see where through you the spirit is broken through.
There's a new insight, there's a new awareness that they have gained, and they are not thesame.
And I've seen that happen enough that it's happened to me enough over I've been coachedLike I'll never forget.
I went into a coaching session.
I was leaving my last church.
I was an emotional wreck and we're 25 minutes in and finally my coach looks at me and Ijust said a lot I was like I need this departure to not be all about me
(33:50):
Hmm.
And it was, you know, again, not saw scales from the eyes on the road to Damascus, but itwas completely orientation shaping.
I was like, my gosh, coach didn't tell me that.
Yeah.
she fired great questions that maybe got me there.
But I came out of that being like, man, that was not, and so, you know, that's really isthat for me, that modality lets me uphold my values the best.
(34:20):
And for me, it's where I've seen the Spirit work and change people that has transformedministries.
How do you think personally, I mean you've been a coach for a long time, if you were tosay for yourself personally, I love the why, I love all those things, what kind of things
have you seen, how has it forced you to grow yourself?
Like what have you learned about yourself as a coach?
(34:42):
think the number one thing that being a coach teaches you is humility.
Man, there are so many times, and there's a difference in coaching between not thinkingthings and not saying things.
We can't help but think things of what we would do.
That's fine.
Right?
That is, you're not gonna go off that.
What did it, so many times I've been wrong.
(35:06):
I was like, this is where we're gonna end up.
I'm two minutes in, we're talking, I'm like, this is all you need to do.
Come on, we could save time.
And at the end I'm like, that's not where we ended up at all.
And I think that's the most thing it's changed for me, is just this profound sense ofhumility and realizing that what a lot of people need, a lot of people, what we do a lot
(35:29):
in ministry, and we mean it well, is when colleagues and friends of ours are gettingbeaten up.
And that happens, right?
It happens at big churches, small churches, conservative churches, progressive churches.
There's not a church I've been connected to where people don't get beat up.
And sometimes they get beat up because they do something dumb.
Sometimes they get beat up because they're in a system that's rough and is not functioningin a healthy way.
(35:51):
All those things can be true at the same time.
And what we want to do is we want to say, look, you are good.
You are good at ministry.
I don't know what's wrong with them.
End of the day, that's not helpful.
It's not helpful.
Whereas helping them identify the agency they do have in a situation That's what that'swhat helps people people figure it out.
(36:14):
Sometimes the answer is get out Right.
Sometimes the answer is this is an intractable situation That you need to leave right andso for me I think one of the frustrations so so Marco who you know and I know one of the
things that Marco taught me I know he wasn't original but I give him credit for every timesaid Brian
(36:35):
Every situation, find your 10 % where you responsible for the situation you're in.
And you know, even if it's 90 % of the other person's fault, even if it's 90 % your churchis treating you like crap, whatever, you probably have a 10 % unless it's literally you
are powerless and being abused.
There are always exceptions, but in most situations you can find 90 % of where you do haveagency.
(36:58):
it coaching really helps people claim that in a way that I think is healthier than just
What we want to do is want to give people a hug and say, look, I love you.
I'm sorry you're going through this.
But what's better is after a 30 minute hard conversation to say, love you.
I know this is hard.
You're going to get through this and look at this.
You already figured out a plan.
(37:20):
So it helps me affirm people in a that doesn't just feel emotionally empty.
I'm like, I can't believe it.
I feel so bad for you.
there's a place for that.
But I like it even more when it's like, I feel bad for you.
But man, you got a plan.
Go do your plan.
Let's figure it out if this will work or not.
Yeah, it's one of the things that I realized in the weekend that we did for thecertification, that initial cohort weekend.
(37:48):
I remember telling my wife, I remember telling Sarah when it was back, or even while wewere there calling, I think I could look back the last 24 years of student ministry and I
could think of specific moments in times where I'm like, man, I wish I had known then.
(38:09):
and had access to a coach at that time in that season.
Because what I found in that weekend is I was talking about things that I was dealing withat the time that were very much tied to me not really having worked through and had done
counseling, okay, but had not worked through some of those things on a professional levelto really understand why things were happening now the way they were at the time.
(38:36):
And I just, think,
What I love about the coaching process even, which I don't, again, don't know that I hadthought much about, is very scalable in the sense that I could have been a youth pastor
with 10 kids in my youth group.
Coaching would help me.
I could be a youth pastor with a hundred thousand kids in my youth group.
(38:59):
Coaching would help me.
And because it's client driven, it's always relevant.
Yep, it's client driven and it's context independent, right?
It does not depend on a given context.
Yeah, yeah.
It was, was, again, I've said it, I'll say it again.
It's so helpful for me.
Yeah.
I think the thing, the thing we're coaching could come in.
(39:21):
So if people are listening and are like, wait, like, like, do I need a coach?
It is, is, would now be a good time for me to engage.
I think we're coaching is often best utilized is when someone feels stuck.
Like that, that's kind of the magic.
It's not magic.
That's to me, somewhat the most applicable thing of like, just feel stuck.
(39:44):
Coaches good at getting people unstuck, right?
If you have a very clear idea of what you want next in ministry, I think a coach can behelpful in those situations, but often the coaching is most helpful in determining what is
going to be next, getting you unstuck, right?
(40:06):
Where I think consulting, just to give an example where I would actually go consultingover coaching.
When I had been at the church that I was at in my...
eighth year going into my ninth year.
To be fully blunt, I was bored.
I'd been there for eight years, nine years.
At this point, I got the youngest siblings of the oldest youth group kids I had are now inmy high school group.
(40:26):
I have moved whole family systems through.
Sunday night is bumping along.
We fixed some major challenges there.
Things are healthy, going well.
And I'm like, I really love this.
and I really have a clear sense I'm supposed to stay here, but man, I need people who aresmarter and have seen systems like this to give me some ideas.
(40:48):
Then we brought in consultants.
And in that process, the consulting was really helpful, because they did the four days oflistening and the endless questionnaires I had to fill out.
And then they came to us with that stuff, and then the question was, okay, what are yourinsights?
Now let's coach you through how you implement.
(41:09):
Right?
So sometimes coaching is a follow-up to consulting.
it could be really helpful, right?
But if I had backed up and been like, man, like I, I feel stuck things are not working.
I need to chart a new course.
Right.
And that's actually thinking back on it at the seven year mark.
That was where actually the coaching was really helpful.
(41:30):
Working with the coach.
Cause that helped me figure out what I needed to do.
Right?
So if you're at a place where things are bumping along and you're rolling
and you're like, okay, how do I not crash this plane?
That may be more of a consulting question.
But if you feel stuck and things are not quite lining up, that's a great coachingquestion.
Yeah, I think back to that, again, that weekend, I spent most of the sessions kind oftalking through something that I was just stuck on.
(41:56):
stuck, maybe not stuck.
I couldn't figure it out.
Like, I think I could identify, hey, here's the problem.
This is what's going on.
This is what I'm doing.
I just don't know why.
And I don't know how to get past it.
So maybe that is stuck.
But I could articulate it.
And it was ridiculously helpful.
So helpful, right?
(42:17):
I don't know that I would have kind of been able to figure that out without the coachingand without the weekend with the process.
And again, we were learning together, you know, kind of coaching at all.
yeah.
I mean, the guy you worked with is not an expert coach.
Right?
Just start now.
10 minutes before the first session probably.
(42:39):
It was great.
again, awesome guy, man.
Turned out to be just a great thing.
Ryan, I want to be mindful of your time.
So I think there's two kinds of people listening.
One is maybe you're listening and you're thinking, gosh, I'd like to look into what itlooks like to become a certified coach.
what's the best way for them to do that?
(43:01):
Yeah.
So the coaching world is full of all kinds of different programs, trainings,opportunities.
Like everyone's kind of got their thing, right?
We at the National Association of Youth Ministry Certification, which is the youth cartelstraining wing, we're the same, right?
Just going to be blunt, we're the same.
We developed our own program from the ground up.
(43:24):
But, but here's what I would say.
When you get into the coaching world, a lot of coaching
training is designed for executive coaches for business.
On one level, there's nothing wrong with that.
The skill set should be the same.
The basic approach should be the same.
But I do think there's a different foundation that we're working with in a ministrysetting that can be helpful to have that perspective inform the training you're doing.
(43:51):
And so what we try and do with the training that these cartel sponsors through theassociation.
is we try and do two things.
We try and align the training that we do with what the International Coach Federation,which is the international accrediting body for coaching, does.
And as you know, those eight competencies that you guys had to learn and reword, those arethe standard competencies that people around the world learn in the coaching world.
(44:17):
The thing about it is that to go through the ICF program, to go through an InternationalCoach Federation accredited program.
is a lot of hours, 65 classroom hours, it's 100 coaching hours, a lot of which have to bepaid, like I think 80 % paid.
And you have to go through a program called Mentor Coaching.
So you're instantly talking about thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to get tothat first level.
(44:41):
The program that we do, I think, is a good intro.
It's a good intro to coaching.
It gets you some basic core skills, and then it lets you figure out whether, okay,
I want to take this to the next level.
It's worth putting three, four, five, six, seven, $10,000 in to being trained through aICF program.
(45:04):
nope, this is a helpful skillset, glad I have it, but I'm not going to put more into it.
That's what I think the value of our training is, is that we, is it's intentionallydesigned to be an intro program.
We do give you a certificate, a certification that says you've done it and you'vecompleted the supervised part of it, right?
It's not just training.
I actually get to hear you coach, we debrief it, so I know that you're at least base levelcompetent in what you're doing.
(45:29):
But that to me is the difference, is that we intentionally engage in ministry perspectiveand we align ourselves with the International Coach Federation so that you're well set up
if down the road you want to do more.
And so that's my best synopsis of what I think makes our program kind of unique in thecoaching space and it's more affordable.
(45:50):
Yeah.
And if they wanted to find more information on that, where's the best place to go?
The best place to go is actually go to the Youth Cartel's website or go to ymcert.com andyou can find information in both those places about this certification.
That's great.
And then if you want, if you're listening and you want coaching, there's options there,right?
(46:16):
Obviously Brian is a great coach.
You coach me.
We didn't mention that, but so we've done coaching path post certification.
would do that.
You can go to thelongerhaul.com.
There's a get coaching spot at the top and grab that and sign up for the discovery call.
We can chat through that.
That's probably the easiest place to start since you're listening to the podcast already.
(46:38):
and then kind of go from there.
Again, I think having an idea of what you would hope to get from coaching will help youregardless of the direction you go.
So you're not just kind of, eh, I didn't have anything else to spend my money on.
So throwing my conference dollars at this.
And so we'll go from that.
Brian, any last thoughts or anything that I didn't ask that I should have?
(47:03):
nothing that comes to mind right away.
think the only point that I would like would drive home again is like the, the, beauty ofcoaching is that, oftentimes you don't realize how much you needed it until you've done
it.
And so like, would encourage your listeners, particularly, right?
Like if they've been listening to the podcast for a while, they don't mean they don't knowme from, from a hole in the wall.
They've listened to you.
(47:24):
Right.
And even if you're sitting there and you're like, man, I don't know, like try it.
Right?
Like give it a shot.
30 minutes, no commitment, no money.
Just find out if it might be a fit.
I've, you know, I've worked with coaches on and off for over a decade now and easily beensome of the most transformative stuff.
It was a little awkward at first, like, okay, what, this going to be?
(47:47):
But now like, as I said, I like coaching so much.
I have two people who I work with in different areas.
Right.
And so yeah, that's my
Like if you've never tried it, give it a shot.
It really can be transformative in your ministry and in a real, a real good way to, to, tobecome more, more, more discernibly empowered is what I would say is what I love about the
(48:10):
coaching process.
Yeah, and you can vouch that I don't suck at it.
So that's always up.
have listened to your calls.
I can attest that you know your competencies and you execute them well.
I was nervous about this.
I told my wife, said, so I'm interviewing Brian today for the podcast talking aboutcoaching.
I'm really nervous he's going to ask me more questions than I ask him and I'm to tobearing my soul on the podcast.
(48:35):
We'll see, actually, so what I was thinking is that if it was slow going, I'd just belike, okay, Jody, what do you wanna talk about today?
And our listeners could then listen to us do a coaching session live.
horrifying, right?
Yeah, maybe another day.
(48:55):
And again, not a great use of coaching because part of coaching is cultivating trust andsafety.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
doing a coaching but but yeah
If you're listening, you've listened this far, here's what I'll say to you.
Again, I'd love for you to look into coaching.
I'd love to come alongside you and help you if I can and work through that.
If that's something you're able to willing to do.
(49:15):
But beyond that, even if it's not me, I can, I just can't express enough how much valueand help coaching has been for me.
And so finding a coach, particularly one who's been certified, who's not just going togive you advice like we've talked about is going to be really important for you and really
helpful.
And so
Again, if you're interested in that, head to thelongerhall.com, it's the top of the pagethere, get coaching, you can kind of set that up.
(49:39):
Otherwise, we'll put links for the youth cartel and for the youth ministry certificationthere in the notes as well.
So if you're interested in that, you can go check those things out.
Brian, thank you so much, man.
I know you're a busy guy.
Appreciate you coming on and for putting up with me now all these months.
So.
great to great to be on.
And always good to talk about coaching and because as you said, there's a lot of folks outthere who are like, yeah, I'm a coach, I'm a coach.
(50:08):
But what they really want to do is give you advice and say their book.
And so that's that's my just as you look into the coaching world, there is some duediligence and caution that I would encourage.
But I can vouch that Jody knows this stuff.
All right, take care.
you later.
All right, bye-bye.
(50:29):
Hey, well there you have it.
Just again, great conversation.
I appreciate Brian so much.
Listen, I would love to talk to you more about what it might look like for you to get somehelp and take advantage of some coaching.
If that is something that you're interested in and think that you would be helpful foryou, wherever you are in whatever your context is, again, you can jump in, just a 30
(50:53):
minute conversation and kind of see if that's a good fit or not.
Head to thelongerhaul.com.
There underneath the menu, you'll see it.
a get coaching option, you can jump in and look at that.
There'll be a link for that in the show notes as well.
But even if not, man, listen, we want you to thrive.
I want you to do well where you are.
I want you to succeed.
I want you to love what you're doing.
I think and believe that coaching can be a real impact for you in that.
(51:16):
Again, for me, even as a part of the process, being coached, coming out of that, havecontinued to have some coaching myself, just been an incredible blessing in my ministry
and my life.
And so I'm not, this isn't just a sales pitch.
This isn't me just trying to kind of jump in and get you to do something else.
I really think it's something that can be helpful for you.
(51:36):
So be sure to head over to thelongerhaul.com and look for that get coaching option thereunderneath the menu.
Jump on the schedule that called.
Love to chat with you on that.
Again, all the show notes today over at thelongerhaul.com slash episode 138,thelongerhaul.com slash episode 138.
Make sure you're subscribed, following the show.
Jump into that Facebook group over there.
(51:58):
and get on the mailing list.
Listen, some great, great episodes coming down the pipe here.
If you didn't hear the last one, we talked to Zach Wyatt about loneliness in youthministry, which is an incredible problem that is pervasive.
And so make sure you go back and listen to that one.
Good ones coming up here in the next couple of weeks as well, over the next few weeks.
So make sure you are back here listening.
(52:20):
anyway, thanks again for tuning in today.
We will catch you in the next episode.
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