June 25, 2024 • 37 mins
Paul Dehner Jr. of The Athletic and The Growler Podcast joined us to discuss a few Bengals-related topics....their upcoming in-season appearance on "Hard Knocks," Tee Higgins signing his franchise tender, the search for veteran running back, the offseason programs for Chase Brown and Andre Iosivas, and what it means to suggest that the Bengals are "Super Bowl or Bust."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You found Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.All right, there we go. We
are on the air. I'm onleegar, this is ESPN fifteen thirty. Li
Dela Cruz, I get a chanceto talk about Ella Dela Cruz being awesome.
I'm gonna do that in the fouro'clock ours. But there's also something
we have to get out of theway. That coming up a little bit
(00:22):
later on Plus. Over seventy fourhundred Major League Baseball games regular season baseball
games have been played since the beginningof last year, and yet one has
everybody but hurt. That coming upa little bit later on show. Preview
video is available on x thanks toEmery Federal Credit Union, your credit union
(00:43):
with heart since nineteen thirty nine.Go to EMORYFCU dot org. By the
way, yesterday I wondered, youknow, should they really have let Nicolodolo
pitch? And I of course gotpatted on the head and oh oh who
else would have pitched? Well,they lost the game, he wasn't effective,
and now he's on the injured list. So you tell me if it
(01:04):
was worth it him going out there. Nicolodola goes to the injured list.
It looks like Graham Ashcraft has adecent chance to come back. They've called
up some of the guy who's probablyinconsequential. We'll spend some time on that
a little bit later on. Speakingof not inconsequential, Paul Danner Junior is
here. What's up covering the Bengalsfor the Athletic and the Growler podcast Balds
Don't Lie. We did the ourfirst podcast in like three weeks yesterday.
(01:27):
Yeah, I know, it hadbeen a little bit and we had the
two good topics. Yes, wehad our favorite Bengals futures. Yeah,
and we inducted the inaugural class intothe Square of Dishonor the Square of Dishonor,
Yes, which which I thought,which I've heard you would expect when
you do something like a Square ofDishonor to have some pushback. Sure,
(01:48):
I got thoughts, and so Iappreciated a lot of the lot of the
thoughts that we got on. Itwas a fun episode. Has any has
anybody's thoughts made your rethink are Squareof Dishonor? I do wish that we
would have talked about Carson Palmer metoo. That was the one that was
brought up to me, and Ifelt like I don't view him in that
light. Neither do I, andso he didn't kind of get onto my
(02:09):
list. But I do understand whyhe would be front and center for a
lot of people. But outside ofthat, I think we think we covered
a lot of ground. Have youheard from Sam Adams people, Yeah,
no, I'm waiting. I triedto look last night to see if Sam
has venmo Yeah, to see ifwe can just send it over real,
(02:30):
just go ahead and make a veryquick transaction. But he does not think
quickly about Carson Palmer. For thosewho don't know, on the Growler podcast,
we took the concept of the BengalsRing of Honor and we just talked
about dishonor and people who would bein the exact opposite. I have Carson
in neither. Yeah, I'm notin the camp that he should ever be
in the Bengals Ring of Honor,but I would not put him in the
Bengals square of dishonor. Sam Adams, for my money, should be number
(02:53):
one unless I get my money.Literally, for your money, three hunt
read fifty dollars, Sam, It'sall I'm looking for. I mean,
you called the game pay me mymoney. It did made me think that
maybe there needs to be a futurepodcast series as an oral history of the
of the Jungle Cats. There shouldbe yeah, yes, which those are
(03:14):
from around here that yes, thatremember that memorable yes season to complete the
season they finished the season one infifteen. Yeah, it'd be worth I
think we worth diving into. Iwill find the schedule and I'll read to
you some of the scores. Yeah, all right, that is a little
bit later on you. Uh,you weren't here last week? Was I
(03:37):
here last week? Yeah? Iwas here last week? Yeah. So,
but since you and I last talkedon this show, two important things
have happened. What were those?Number One Bengals are going to be on
a hard knocks during the season,which is gonna be awesome. Sure,
I can't wait for this. Yeah, in season AFC North. You know
we've obviously seen that the training campversion roll through town. That's gonna be
(03:57):
cool as hell, I think so. Yes. I like the Dolphins one
last year a lot like I didn'texpect to want to watch the Dolphins one
yeah last year, but I caughtone and was really intrigued. Thought it
was well done. Thought they hadfound a little bit of a catch to
bring you in and make the Dolphinsinteresting, and I ended up watching every
single one and learned a lot abouttheir players. I am here for a
(04:20):
few things. I am here forthe combination of however many guys are miked
up with cameras on them when thesedivision teams play each other on the field.
Theater of having both teams kind ofcovered in all of that, I
think can be pretty wild when youcombine it all together, if done correctly.
(04:45):
I don't know if there will stillbe limits on how many people can
be, but that was some ofthe best stuff, certainly from any of
the hard knocks in season stuff.And if you have that going with both
teams, I think that can beincredible. Just give me at least two
minutes of blackout Trey in Pittsburgh,right like whatever, whatever that looks like,
I'm here. I'm here for that. The other one that, the
(05:06):
other part of that that I'm mostcurious about is last year we learned a
lot about two a tongue of bailoathrough those quarterback room cams, you know,
those meeting rooms, And I'm curiouswill the Joe Burrow quarterback's room cam
(05:29):
be a thing. Or will JoeBurrow throw a spiral at it on day
one and knock that camera out andsay, I don't think so, not
on my watch. Or will itbe something that he's willing to kind of
let people into his routine in hisprocess. It's one area that we've not
really gotten a feel for other thanwe hear about it. The legend of
it. Almost of this of thisdialed in, you know, not wired
(05:51):
the same way as everybody else approachto preparation. I'd be curious to get
a view of a better view ofthat than we already have. And I
wonder, I wonder if that willbe a part of it, how much
of that will get I love hardknocks, the traditional hard knocks that takes
place during training camp. Let's behonest, there aren't that many things that
(06:14):
could really really go wrong. Now, there are injuries, there are players
who get cut. There's the dramain that, but the real drama comes
during the season. And so theNFL film stuff they have done during the
season. I think back to twothousand and nine, they did a season
with the New England Patriots focused aroundBill Belichick, but it was really they
were embedded with the Patriots and thenthe Dolphins. They did the La Rams
(06:35):
and we had a chance to watchJeff Fisher looking like he had sat at
a blackjack table all night long,telling his staff and his players that he
had just gotten fired. The ArizonaCardinals ear which went completely sideways, and
everybody kind of knew they were gonnalose their jobs toward the end of the
season, like real drama there.I don't think that's gonna happen with any
coach in the AFC North. Butthe fun thing about this for me is
(06:58):
someone's season isn't gonna go well asthe others, and that's going to be
documented, and so there's going tobe a celebration of whoever wins the division
and then whoever advances in the postseason. But there's also going to be coverage
of an interesting team that has highhopes and the season doesn't go quite as
well as everybody would have expected.All Right, you you know, diversify
your portfolio if you're HBO, rightlike, you know, there's no saying
(07:21):
that this has to be a twentyfive five twenty five twenty five operation yea
if one team ends up being justa producer's dream. You're gonna see a
lot of them, and depending onwhat that team is, you just you
just never quite know, and soI I suspect it'll be it'll be pretty
(07:42):
good. Whatever HBO usually does isdone well. I think it typically comes
down to access and they've gotten asmuch of that as anybody when when they
do it. So we'll see.I think it'll be fun. It's always
the more the better. At thevery least, you get the profiles and
you really get to know a lotof the players in some of the situations
(08:05):
better than you did, and that'sthat's always good. I said this to
the dude who's kind of in chargeof this for NFL Films. We had
him on the show on Friday,and I said, the Bengals were on
hard Knocks in two thousand and nineand number one that kind of triggered a
rebrand of sorts because they've been sobad the year before, so unlikable,
and I've always felt like there wasa there has to this day, fifteen
(08:26):
years later, a special attachment thata lot of us have to that team,
which, as you well know,was a very emotional year, and
I think it started with the storiesthat were told on Hard Knocks. I
think Hard Knocks is why Mike Zimmeris a beloved character in Cincinnati. And
you know, obviously that year featuredChad, featured Carson, but also featured
(08:48):
Tank Johnson and Tom Nelson and ReggieKelly's injury, and that team I have
a great amount of fondness for.They were good, they won ten games,
but in large part because of howthey were covered in AUGUSTA. No,
I think you do learn a lotabout these guys. But I go
back to you talk about Mike Zimmerbeing beloved. How about Mike Zimmer and
Jay Gruden being head coaches? Yeah, I mean twenty thirteen. Your part
(09:11):
of the reason why there was agreementto bring Hard Knocks back was feeling like
a lot of these coaches deserved jobsand weren't getting the attention and respect that
they should have been getting. Andboth of them end up getting jobs after
after that year. And I don'tknow people how many people know this,
but a part of the reason whyZach Taylor ended up getting a job with
(09:33):
the Rams was Sean McVay seeing howhe sort of handled himself on Hard Knocks
when he was with the Dolphins.Twelve. Yeah, and liking his tenor
with people, his communication skills,and that being sort of the groundwork for
what became a job there. Thatwas the job that set him on the
path that he's been on his career. It wasn't the thirteen consecutive scoreless quarters.
(09:54):
Well, he was the offensive coordinatorat U. See now, wasn't
that. That wasn't the one.That wasn't the one, so you still
had some all right. The otherthing that happened while you were gone and
I intentionally only left his two minutes. Okay, T Higgins signs is tender.
Okay, there you go. Drawwell, I mean cool. Here's
the thing. This the moment theydid, what you have to do with
(10:18):
the tag? What do you dowith the tag? You slap it?
Slap, slap it on him?You slap the moment they slapped the tag
on ta at the first semantically responsiblewould be apply apply, Yeah, but
most people say slaps. People liketo say slaps. My point, once
they put the tag on T.Higgins at the first possible instant they could,
we knew it was ending here.Trade requests. All the other stuff
(10:43):
was just was just sizzle. Thesteak was this everybody knew the Bengals knew
where this ends. This ends att Higgins coming here making twenty two million
dollars and having everything to play for, and everybody knowing that that's probably the
best decision for them. Well,it's interesting you brought up slap in the
tag because this brings me to oneof my ideas. So, if you
(11:03):
are the winner of the NFL WalterPeyton Man of the Year Award, you
get a Walter Payton on your jersey. If you're a team captain, you
get the Captain c I think ifyou're the franchise tag, they should get
one of those Prices right tags.Yeah, put it on your jersey for
the season, and that way it'sa little bit of an honor Yeah,
franchise Yeah, or it just saysis it just it's the yellow with the
(11:26):
dots yes, tea across the bigtag written in sharpie new every game I
was getting my oil changed watching Prices. Right. They had the tags and
said, now there's an idea.Yeah, I thought I'd run it past
you first. That's a good one. I like that idea. What do
you do with guys that are giventhe tag then sign an extension. Do
they not get the tag then thatyear because it's kind of been taken off
(11:48):
because T is the only one,the only guy, so he'd be he'd
be the only one with this weirdthis weird price. Yeah, it's even
more special. Welleh. I'm forit. I just wanted to make sure
that we're on board. I don'tcare. I'm fine with anything I think
they like. I like the soccercaptain's armband, okay, because that it
can pass around to every if someoneleaves or whatever. I like the idea
(12:09):
of the the armband that can goanywhere. You can just rip it off
somebody's arms. We're a different colorjersey like soccer goalies do. Yeah.
Okay, you have highlighted a Bengalsfirst world problem at the Athletic dot Com
that I want to spend some timeon. Joe Burrow is a fashion model.
Now, I also want to getinto the concept of twenty twenty four
being Super Bowl or bust. That'sright, Paul, it's June. Yeah,
(12:35):
sixteen minutes after three o'clock Read PaulTheathletic dot Com, catch the podcast
The Growler where you get your podcasts, and follow him on x at Paul
Danner Junior. He's here till four, We're here till six. I'm mowegar.
Glad you're with us today on ESPNfifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station ESPN fifteen
thirty. I'm owegar. By theway, we post our show preview video
(12:58):
on x thanks to Emmerying Federal CreditUnion, your credit union with heart since
nineteen thirty nine, gonna Emory FCUdot org. Paul Danner Junior is here
till four o'clock. On a myriadof Bengals related offseason issues. You folks
at the athletic went around the leagueand everybody had to chime in with the
(13:20):
biggest question, the biggest concern ascamp approaches, and so I'm thinking,
like, what sort of manufactured controversyare we going to have here? And
your question was should they add aveteran running back? Which is a fair
question. Yeah, and maybe theyshould, which is interesting we were asking
the same thing a year ago.But if that's the biggest question, these
(13:41):
guys are going to go fourteen andthree, right, yeah? I mean
well, or maybe they'll start fiveor six and zero and win a potential
bet for the last undefeated team,as you promoted yesterday on the podcast.
You know, I just think itfeels like a spot that could use another
(14:01):
body. Yeah, and that's notto say that there isn't a great plan
in place and a lot of excitementabout the combination of Zach Moss and Chase
Brown. It's just that some kindof a veteran third down back feels more
likely to be there than, youknow, Chris Evans being the fourth guy,
or or Trayvon Williams getting another shot, not that he wouldn't still maybe
(14:24):
make the team, but just feelslike they should have one more body there.
And in fairness, we'll say itagain, it could be someboj p
Ryan trying to refill that role.Denver has a bevy of running backs and
p Ryan potentially could be on theoutstre so maybe they're waiting on that.
Jerck McKinnon has been sitting out there. I mean, there's there's there's veterans
(14:46):
that are out there. If therewas no one available, you wouldn't bring
it up. But there certainly seemslike there could be options and maybe that's
one that they signed. But you'reright, it's a minor it's a minor
issue. You're not talking about somehuge deal that could kill the season.
Here, it's a you know,you're working on the edges. I feel
like Trayvon Williams has been with ateam since like two thousand and four.
He's in there. I mean,yeah, he's uh twenty nineteen. We
(15:09):
do this every summer with him,right, And then to a degree,
Chris Evans soon like, we dothis, We do this every summer,
like, well, maybe those guyscan handle a bigger if. By now
at this position, we're still askingthe same things. We don't need to
ask anymore. We know, right, we know we know that they're not
they're not viewed as necessarily a bigtime a big time answer. You have
a piece coming out speaking of runningbacks, ye where you take a look
(15:31):
at the off season programs by ChaseBrown and andre Yoshabash. Yeah, I
am really excited about this. Thisis be out tomorrow. During the off
season, I sort of you know, just in conversations, you know,
with with people associated the team,one thing that kept coming up was have
you seen Chase Brown running routes?Like, man, he looks he is
(15:54):
like really looking good. He lookslike a receiver out there and that was
not the tenor around him this timelast year, and it's a major improvement.
And the same for Yoshibash. Imean, we talked about this a
little bit. You know, hecould be the two time winner of the
Moeger Award for the Receiver of theSummer because he's looked like that. It's
(16:15):
not you know, he looked likethat last year as somebody who really was
opening eyes. Well, he's doingthe same thing this year because you can
see him taking the next step ina lot of ways. I thought he
looked like the best receiver on thefield for a lot of OTAs with no
Jamar t there and so but whatthey did was, you know, they
hired a personal receivers coach and wentall in. Neither of them said they'd
(16:41):
ever had one, and they havereceivers coaches, but you know, your
time on the field is limited andthere's almost no offseason program real work you
can do, but the chance toreally go after the fundamentals. Chase Brown's
been running back and never really learnedhow to properly run routes. So there's
a lot of stuff about Yoshivasha's game. Is a former heptathlete where he's never
really had the chance to just spendmonths and months working on those basic fundamentals
(17:04):
and the repeated nature of being moresolid with your hands, understanding what muscles
and how to use them properly toget the most out of your cuts and
run full suite and speed with yourstride length and all that stuff. And
they went eight weeks, ten weekswithout taking a day off. They were
you know, there's somebody who alsotrains Jacobe Myers, and he was doing
(17:26):
that in Vegas. They flew outthere twice on the weekends during OTAs to
get extra work in there so theywouldn't miss any sessions. They have been
relentless and Milton and it showed.Burrows talked about it, Zach Taylor has
talked about it. Everybody that youtalk to has been like, man,
you can really see a difference.It really opens up a lot for what
Chase Brown can be. And soit's sort of the story about how this
(17:49):
came, about what exactly has happenedwith them training with this guy, Drew
Lieberman down in Atlanta, and whyit's changed a lot of perspective about what
they can be and how they fitthis coming season when people with the Bengals
were saying, do you man,have you watched Chase Brown? Did you
feel like saying do you guys knowwho he is? Y cause you look
(18:11):
pretty explicitive last year he'd ever played. But look the deck has been cleared
there. I mean, look,no doubt this is a part of the
whether popular or unpopular and people havetheir opinions on Joe Mixon moving to Houston.
It's about freeing up Chase Brown tobe the guy and liking what they
saw in the small bits that theysaw them and Zack Moss a part of
(18:34):
that too, but I think thevision is about Chase Brown. Zach Moss
is a nice piece to go alongsidehim in an insurance policy. It's about
Chase Brown potentially being a real guy. And you saw that in the screen
game last year and some of theruns when they finally got it, but
he didn't have a ton of work. And now if you can really get
him into open space with that speedas a receiver more as a receiver something
(19:00):
that this all started just by ZachTaylor mentioning it to him in the exit
interview back in January, saying,look, we need we'd love for you
to be a better receiver and himtaking taking it on and taking it to
this level that can go a longway. And I think that's something that
they were kind of betting on whenwhen the mix and move happened to you.
You mentioned Andre winning the Moeggor Award. Yes, we have to determine
(19:22):
if there are like limits, likeyou know how you're no longer a rookie
in baseball if you have like onehundred and thirty at bats. Andre played
in sixteen games last year. Hecaught fifteen passes. Does statistically that disqualify
him from being the guy that Iobsess over every summer? No, okay,
(19:45):
I think I think because there's somuch to be learned between the first
and the second season. I thinkafter year two of actually playing some mm
hmm, it's over. Okay,No more like you've you've kind of right,
there's no year three leads sneak upon idea. No one's like wait,
no one's really waiting on the yearthree. It felt like with Audentate,
it was like, well, it'syear eight. He's got a good
(20:06):
catch radius, does he? Yeah? Well, I just I think the
the element of opening eyes in theoff season is kind of reserved for year
one or year two, and he'skind of a special case in that regard.
You also have to have some kindof a background that suggests what his
does that we was so raw atthe beginning that it's okay. So I
think it's okay, okay, butit's over after this. This is a
(20:30):
he cannot be a three time Thereare three time winners. No, you
get you get two at most ifyou have a special case. All right,
So the piece on Chase Brown andandre Yosebash will be out tomorrow the
Athletic dot com or and why Timesdot com. That's right, they are
both connected. Look for that tomorrow. It's twenty nine away from four o'clock
sports headlines. Uh, and thenwe have to talk about the Bengals season
(20:55):
being one of super Bowl or bust. But I think I have a different
way of putting it. I think, okay, I don't know. It
is twenty nine away from four o'clockon Moegar. This is ESPN fifteen thirty
Cincinnati Sports Station Everla, home oflifetime powertrain protection and guaranteed credit approval from
their family to yours for LIVEKELSEYSHEV dotCom Reds and Pirates again tonight at GABP.
(21:18):
Hunter Green versus Mitch Keller seven toten Tonight. Red's trying to make
it two in a row after areally fun evening last night. Ellie Dela
Cruz stole the show by putting ona show, but Carson Spiers was very
good. Levi Jordan had an awesomeBig League debut, Jonathan India had a
great game. Red's beat the Pirates. Hopefully they can do it again tonight.
(21:40):
By the way, yes, thereare Steamboat l T shirts available at
Sincy shirts dot com. Go getone starting lineup tonight thanks to Madewell Greater
Cincinnati's roofing at exterior restoration Experts MaadewellRestoration dot Com, indiat tewond Elliott Short,
Candelario's dhing Steers at first base,Freelian right, Stevenson's catching espen All
(22:00):
at third, Benson and left StewartFairchild in center field. Nick Lodolo goes
on the injured list with a blister. Cincinnati calls up pitcher yazvr zulu Eta.
Zulu Eta, He's Cuban. He'son the big squad. Austin Winn
has cleared Waivers. He's off toLouisville. Y'all's are home tonight for Schomberg
and the US men's national soccer teamwill play New Zealand in an international friendly
(22:25):
on Tuesday, September the tenth.That game will be played at the Soccer
Stadium on the West End of CincinnatiPaul Danner Juniors here. What did last
night's win do for the Pythagorean winloss record? Do we know? Have
we figured out if that's changed fromyou know, I'm impressed by the banner
hanging behind me that it was fortyand thirty seven. Ply all those runs.
(22:48):
It's now forty one and thirty seven. Wow. So I don't know
if we have to change that.No, but you keep it rolling.
Yesterday, our friend Jeff Carr,who does a terrific job on Reds and
among other outlets, tweeted out thatthe Reds Pythagorian win loss record was forty
and thirty seven. I don't knowwhat that means. They're better than you
(23:11):
think, That's what I mean.Has a team ever qualified for the playoffs
because of its I think we shouldtotally just switch to the Pythagorean, which
you will find many people who willagree with that statement. Many people who
will agree with that statement it shouldn'tbe about winning and losing that night.
Do they have Pythagorian standings? Iprobably to those probably, So you now
(23:37):
you're making me go down like aWhat I appreciated last night was in watching
was it felt like every batter forboth teams hit the ball over one hundred
mile. I mean like it wasjust like it was batting practice for both
teams. All that couldn't believe thePirates only had three runs at one point.
Yeah, we just felt like everybodywas just absolutely pummeling the baseball at
least puts one on the boat.And then O'Neil crue comes up, and
(24:00):
I mean even like Sadax Carl waslike, oh god, wow, it's
insane. Well, and you couldhear like there was a small group of
children, yeah, chanting overrated rightbefore he swung that. And I felt
like that was a really nice lessonto everyone that don't don't don't chant overrated
at people. Okay, like it'sit's not gonna end. Well, well,
(24:23):
how it works on this show.When Ellie has a bad week and
a half for two weeks, Ihave to hear how he's a bost and
yeah, maybe sick could use somemore seasoning. And he's overrated. So
when he has a good ten days, I get to talk about how awesome
he's gonna be. Yeah. Howhe's thirty fifth in baseball in ops,
(24:44):
ahead of such people like Austin Riley, Willia Damas, Cody Bellinger, Corey
Seeger, among others. He's eighteenthin baseball and walks. He still strikes
out a ton one hundred and threek's, but he is taking more pitches
and he's walking more. He issixth in baseball and offensive war stolen bases
have a lot to do with that. Well, that's part of it.
(25:04):
Twenty two year old player. Really, Yeah, you kidding me? Well,
And the funny thing was, andhe hit the boat last night,
and he hit the boat and itwasn't the most exciting thing that he did.
Yeah, when he just had adouble on a base hit up the
middle, Yeah, I mean,and you get to watch him just turn
the corner and just fly to secondbase. He he is the ultimate weapon
(25:26):
for a franchise because he met inbaseball. It's so you just want to
have a reason for people to tunein, and you have to tune in
every night because every night it seemslike you you see something you know.
And I love how every time peoplehave to, you know, give superloves
about him and always starts with whatnot since nineteen hundred, it's like how
(25:51):
many of these can there be?And it's like him and Ricky Anderson,
you know, and it's like,I just these things keep showing up and
at a certain point that matters.At point, it just matters. I
don't I don't think anybody's arguing againstEli Da Day La Cruise. At his
point, he's growing. Oh he'sgoing if he goes like oh for four
(26:11):
tonight and oh for for tomorrow,yeah, I'll be on tomorrow night.
I'll hear people who will say,you know, maybe you're making this guy
out to be something a little bitmore than he is. Well, he's
pretty awesome right now. He isawesome and and and he is clearly you
know this was what he must watch. Well not only that, and it's
like it's it's a matter of youknow, it was always going to be
(26:33):
about Okay, do your your slumpsor your skids where you're struggling, do
they start getting shorter, and yourstretches where you're you're hot start getting longer,
and you hope that what you're seeingnow because he has put that skid
behind him, is starting to seethat, and you start seeing that more
and more, and that's what happens. That's how players develop. You just
do and and if you get stretchesof this, if you get where seventy
(26:59):
five percent the year is good Elliethat we've seen to this point. Yeah,
it's MVP stuff, yes, correct, and steamboat stuff and yes,
hitting the boat. I mean,how about how about? Of course I
love it. I've I've worked withc Trent Rosecrans for a long time and
he talks to go this is likehis favorite thing. I loved. I
knew he was going to do ittoo. I was like, I knew
he'd go to the boat, findthe people, and it was like from
(27:22):
some bowling alley in Chilli, Cothedecided what a night that the Shawnee Lanes
decided to come up. I lovestuff like that. I remember Trent doing
that. We were covering Bengals atSaints in twenty fourteen. Bresham ball.
Yeah, got intercepted by a Saintsfan who refused to give it up and
(27:44):
went down and wrote a great storyon the people that had got the ball
stolen from him. Everything He's like, I'm going right, he was just
all the way on the way.I love Trent loves doing this, so
I love when he does that.And I was expecting that shout out to
Shawne Lanes in chi in Chillicothe.Yeah, h I was gonna say something
about Chelli Cofee. It's a beautifulplace and I'm my colle one of my
(28:06):
college girlfriends from Chelicothe. Wow,I'm sure she's probably listening right now.
I guarantee you. I can assureyou that's not happening. Is this season
super Bowl or bust? You said, uh, do you have a new
way to put it back to this? But you know you're gonna be What
does that mean? That's the thing. I don't know what it means.
I don't know what it means.I know what it means if you have
(28:29):
the sort of owner that's gonna sayif you don't win the title, I'm
gonna blow it up. That's thatdoesn't apply here. So here's how I
want to frame it. How long, like, I'll make this about Joe
specifically, but you could apply it, I guess to the team as a
whole. We're very impatient. Joe'sin his fifth year. It's mostly been
a honeymoon. We acknowledge some thingshave gone awry beyond his control, but
(28:53):
he's one of the faces of thisleague. The longer you go is one
of the faces of this league withoutwinning a ring. The fact that you
don't have a ring leads the conversationmore and more so for folks like myself.
We hope this season ends with Joebeing fitted for a ring to go
along with his backless suit jacket.If that doesn't happen, how much longer
(29:17):
until the narrative so to speak abouthim and maybe this era changes. Well,
I'm gonna need this. There's somethingthat I need to see that I
haven't seen yet. I need tosee a healthy Joe Burrow play and not
make it to the conference championship cameand not be one of the teams that
(29:38):
are there at the end battling toefor toe to toe with Patrick Mahomes like
yet to see that. We cantalk about the injuries and maybe the bust
this year is can Joe stay healthyand if he doesn't. Then then you
start talking about what's happening here andhow do you go forward? And do
you consider other things? I guessdepending on what it was. But to
(29:59):
me, I'm not He's been knockingon the door every time he's been fully
healthy, you know, with realweapons is twenty one two out of three
years. So show me a seasonwhere he's fully healthy and it doesn't quite
come together, it's not quite right. He plays poorly for long stretches in
meaningful games, or it cost thema playoff win earlier in the playoffs.
(30:23):
Show me that. Until I seethat, I don't know what we're talking
about. So that was my answerto the same question. Okay, it
was I need to see him havea spectacularly poor regular season where he plays
seventeen games and they win six oracross multiple seasons playoff flameouts like Manning getting
(30:45):
destroyed early in his career in playoffgames where they didn't score a point or
they were beaten in games they hadno business losing to, and then for
Peyton until he finally won one,it was well, gee is you know,
his gaudy stats, does a lotof things, uber skilled, but
he can't get out of his ownway in the postseason. I've obviously seen
him lose playoff games. I've seenhim lose two coin flip games, and
(31:07):
I've seen him have good moments inthose games. I've seen him come up
short in some respects in those games. But I've never seen anything that I
felt like was a direct reflection ofhis inability to rise to the occasion.
I've seen him lose big games,but I haven't seen them. Hey,
their home playoff favorites by more thana touchdown and they lose. Or he
has a four turnover game in apostseason game and he's the main reason why
(31:30):
they lose. And I haven't seenhim author a terrible regular season. Now,
look, they didn't have a greatrecord when he got hurt his rookie
year, but who knows what wouldhave happened over those final six games.
And most of us disregarded the winlost total anyway. But I was asked
that question last week, and Isaid, because the comparison was, well,
God Elway went to a bunch ofSuper Bowls early, didn't win,
(31:51):
and then we got impatient and wedid it with Manning with Burrow. I
answered it almost the exact same way. If if he turns in a six
and eleven this year, which Ifind impossible to believe will happen, if
he plays even close to seventeen games, or if I see in consecutive years
early postseason flameouts, in particular ingames that they're supposed to win, that's
(32:15):
when it changes. That's when itchanges, and it hasn't. And in
fact, you know, we caneverybody wants to parse how or why they
have won laden seasons. But Imean those two years you had Joe Burrow
winning games in December and January tothe point that it was a meaningful streak,
could double digit I mean where youcouldn't beat him there until it happened
(32:36):
in the EFC Championship game obviously inKansas City, where he was, you
know, one play away from beatingMahomes again to go to another Super Bowl.
I mean, it's I don't Idon't understand that, And I just
think we need to see something besideshealth play a role in December and January.
(32:58):
And argue what you want about theman. The defense carried them,
Sure, that's okay, but theydid enough to win. We five into
in the playoffs. They have doneenough to win in those games. So
I'm not gonna you know, I'mnot an old does the Super Bowl run.
He doesn't get enough credit for notturning it over when he was getting
hit a thousand times. And andyou know, so we how much are
(33:23):
we going to talk about the leadershiprole of quarterbacks in this league and then
just discount it when you start talkingabout how he changes the way people believe
that the Bengals can win on histeam. His teammates believe, his defense
believes, the players around him believebecause he leads that he sets that tone.
He creates that environment. The quarterbacksets the tone man, and he
(33:46):
has done that here to the pointthat he's a part of why everybody plays
better when he's out there doing histhing. He's a part of why I'm
not gonna throw QB wins out thereas a stat but changing the culture and
setting the tone about how everybody isexpected to work and the standard that is
set nobody. I mean, you'regonna have a hard time finding anybody setting
(34:08):
that better than Joe Burrow does herejust because of the way that he operates
is just is kind of different,and it's notable when you talk to other
people in the room. Now weknow that. Now here's what I fear.
I don't think is gonna happen.But I'm I'm I'm fearful that a
will Joe gets through training camp healthyand he answers the bell game one,
(34:30):
but he doesn't play well and they'reupset at home, and the postgame call
in show will feature people who say, well, because he's too busy being
a fashion model, Yeah that's comingye. Well yeah, the moment you
do anything, yes, outside ofthe realm of football that is discussed or
republic or different or not relatable.Like if it's, hey, Joe's down
(34:53):
at like Lake Norris hanging out ona boat. Oh, I can relate
to that. But he's in Paris, he's got the backless suit jacket.
Uh, he's doing podcasts where he'stalking about brands. But people can't relate
to that. Yeah. So whenwhen it's and I saw this happen with
Vado, right, because he's he'sthe guy that goes on the road and
(35:14):
goes to art museums, Suddenly folksare like, I can't relate to that.
Now if it's he's out in theroad getting drunk and stuff, well,
people can relate to that. Andso with Burrow, eh, you
know, when he's going to Vegasat UFC fights folks like that. But
now it's it's Paris. It's kindof unrelatable. It's on this different stratosphere.
(35:36):
So is the backless suit jacket.If he plays poorly, it's gonna
be brought up a lot. Yeah. No, I hope our part of
the punch. I hope our postgameradio hosts are ready. Yeah. Yeah,
it's gonna be a part of thePunchline's gonna be a part of everything.
It's just like it's gonna end upbeing what if if the Vikings and
the Bengals both struggle, You're gonnajust get you know, you're gonna get
(35:57):
these They're gonna be trotted back up. But that's everybody. It's when you
get paid ungodly amounts of money.The conversation changes when you do stuff that
is on a different level, indifferent places, doing different things, it
always changes the conversation. And butyou got that's part of it. Man,
win games, do your thing?Whatever would you buy one? I
(36:20):
just cut I just cut my suittoday, did you Yeah? I went
in my kid, I went intomy closet and with the scissors, and
I said, Yep, this iswhat it's gonna be. This is the
future. I'm just gonna cut abig hole in it right now. Yeah.
So maybe next week I'll wear that. Yeah, you don't have to,
Okay, but that's fine. Waitfor the me. The memes are,
the memes are coming. Oh boy, they're coming. There coming.
(36:43):
There's there's no question. There's gonnabe a They're they're gonna be putting like
the l on his back and allthe other stuff. But none of it
matters if he wins. Correct ifit matters, none of it matters.
All right, awesome stuff as alwaysappreciated. Well look for the piece on
Chase Brown and Andrea Josebash at TheAthlete. In the meantime, folks can
listen to the podcast The Growler Podcast, most recently featuring me, the most
(37:06):
recently featuring you, Paul, Don'tLie Go Get that Bengals Square of Dishonor,
and our favorite futures bets for theupcoming season. Paul, Thank You,
No Problems with a Pleasure. FollowPaul on Twitter, slash x at
Paul Danner Junior. It's seven awayfrom four o'clock. Well, we'll spend
more time on Ellie. I'm gonnago to a place you don't want me
to go, but for a goodreason. Next on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati
(37:30):
Sports Station. Uh digestive, Howthese shoes can take over your entire day,
leaving those like Taylor Hello, feelingbloated it and I'm
You found Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.All right, there we go. We
are on the air. I'm onleegar, this is ESPN fifteen thirty. Li
Dela Cruz, I get a chanceto talk about Ella Dela Cruz being awesome.
I'm gonna do that in the fouro'clock ours. But there's also something
we have to get out of theway. That coming up a little bit
(00:22):
later on Plus. Over seventy fourhundred Major League Baseball games regular season baseball
games have been played since the beginningof last year, and yet one has
everybody but hurt. That coming upa little bit later on show. Preview
video is available on x thanks toEmery Federal Credit Union, your credit union
(00:43):
with heart since nineteen thirty nine.Go to EMORYFCU dot org. By the
way, yesterday I wondered, youknow, should they really have let Nicolodolo
pitch? And I of course gotpatted on the head and oh oh who
else would have pitched? Well,they lost the game, he wasn't effective,
and now he's on the injured list. So you tell me if it
(01:04):
was worth it him going out there. Nicolodola goes to the injured list.
It looks like Graham Ashcraft has adecent chance to come back. They've called
up some of the guy who's probablyinconsequential. We'll spend some time on that
a little bit later on. Speakingof not inconsequential, Paul Danner Junior is
here. What's up covering the Bengalsfor the Athletic and the Growler podcast Balds
Don't Lie. We did the ourfirst podcast in like three weeks yesterday.
(01:27):
Yeah, I know, it hadbeen a little bit and we had the
two good topics. Yes, wehad our favorite Bengals futures. Yeah,
and we inducted the inaugural class intothe Square of Dishonor the Square of Dishonor,
Yes, which which I thought,which I've heard you would expect when
you do something like a Square ofDishonor to have some pushback. Sure,
(01:48):
I got thoughts, and so Iappreciated a lot of the lot of the
thoughts that we got on. Itwas a fun episode. Has any has
anybody's thoughts made your rethink are Squareof Dishonor? I do wish that we
would have talked about Carson Palmer metoo. That was the one that was
brought up to me, and Ifelt like I don't view him in that
light. Neither do I, andso he didn't kind of get onto my
(02:09):
list. But I do understand whyhe would be front and center for a
lot of people. But outside ofthat, I think we think we covered
a lot of ground. Have youheard from Sam Adams people, Yeah,
no, I'm waiting. I triedto look last night to see if Sam
has venmo Yeah, to see ifwe can just send it over real,
(02:30):
just go ahead and make a veryquick transaction. But he does not think
quickly about Carson Palmer. For thosewho don't know, on the Growler podcast,
we took the concept of the BengalsRing of Honor and we just talked
about dishonor and people who would bein the exact opposite. I have Carson
in neither. Yeah, I'm notin the camp that he should ever be
in the Bengals Ring of Honor,but I would not put him in the
Bengals square of dishonor. Sam Adams, for my money, should be number
(02:53):
one unless I get my money.Literally, for your money, three hunt
read fifty dollars, Sam, It'sall I'm looking for. I mean,
you called the game pay me mymoney. It did made me think that
maybe there needs to be a futurepodcast series as an oral history of the
of the Jungle Cats. There shouldbe yeah, yes, which those are
(03:14):
from around here that yes, thatremember that memorable yes season to complete the
season they finished the season one infifteen. Yeah, it'd be worth I
think we worth diving into. Iwill find the schedule and I'll read to
you some of the scores. Yeah, all right, that is a little
bit later on you. Uh,you weren't here last week? Was I
(03:37):
here last week? Yeah? Iwas here last week? Yeah. So,
but since you and I last talkedon this show, two important things
have happened. What were those?Number One Bengals are going to be on
a hard knocks during the season,which is gonna be awesome. Sure,
I can't wait for this. Yeah, in season AFC North. You know
we've obviously seen that the training campversion roll through town. That's gonna be
(03:57):
cool as hell, I think so. Yes. I like the Dolphins one
last year a lot like I didn'texpect to want to watch the Dolphins one
yeah last year, but I caughtone and was really intrigued. Thought it
was well done. Thought they hadfound a little bit of a catch to
bring you in and make the Dolphinsinteresting, and I ended up watching every
single one and learned a lot abouttheir players. I am here for a
(04:20):
few things. I am here forthe combination of however many guys are miked
up with cameras on them when thesedivision teams play each other on the field.
Theater of having both teams kind ofcovered in all of that, I
think can be pretty wild when youcombine it all together, if done correctly.
(04:45):
I don't know if there will stillbe limits on how many people can
be, but that was some ofthe best stuff, certainly from any of
the hard knocks in season stuff.And if you have that going with both
teams, I think that can beincredible. Just give me at least two
minutes of blackout Trey in Pittsburgh,right like whatever, whatever that looks like,
I'm here. I'm here for that. The other one that, the
(05:06):
other part of that that I'm mostcurious about is last year we learned a
lot about two a tongue of bailoathrough those quarterback room cams, you know,
those meeting rooms, And I'm curiouswill the Joe Burrow quarterback's room cam
(05:29):
be a thing. Or will JoeBurrow throw a spiral at it on day
one and knock that camera out andsay, I don't think so, not
on my watch. Or will itbe something that he's willing to kind of
let people into his routine in hisprocess. It's one area that we've not
really gotten a feel for other thanwe hear about it. The legend of
it. Almost of this of thisdialed in, you know, not wired
(05:51):
the same way as everybody else approachto preparation. I'd be curious to get
a view of a better view ofthat than we already have. And I
wonder, I wonder if that willbe a part of it, how much
of that will get I love hardknocks, the traditional hard knocks that takes
place during training camp. Let's behonest, there aren't that many things that
(06:14):
could really really go wrong. Now, there are injuries, there are players
who get cut. There's the dramain that, but the real drama comes
during the season. And so theNFL film stuff they have done during the
season. I think back to twothousand and nine, they did a season
with the New England Patriots focused aroundBill Belichick, but it was really they
were embedded with the Patriots and thenthe Dolphins. They did the La Rams
(06:35):
and we had a chance to watchJeff Fisher looking like he had sat at
a blackjack table all night long,telling his staff and his players that he
had just gotten fired. The ArizonaCardinals ear which went completely sideways, and
everybody kind of knew they were gonnalose their jobs toward the end of the
season, like real drama there.I don't think that's gonna happen with any
coach in the AFC North. Butthe fun thing about this for me is
(06:58):
someone's season isn't gonna go well asthe others, and that's going to be
documented, and so there's going tobe a celebration of whoever wins the division
and then whoever advances in the postseason. But there's also going to be coverage
of an interesting team that has highhopes and the season doesn't go quite as
well as everybody would have expected.All Right, you you know, diversify
your portfolio if you're HBO, rightlike, you know, there's no saying
(07:21):
that this has to be a twentyfive five twenty five twenty five operation yea
if one team ends up being justa producer's dream. You're gonna see a
lot of them, and depending onwhat that team is, you just you
just never quite know, and soI I suspect it'll be it'll be pretty
(07:42):
good. Whatever HBO usually does isdone well. I think it typically comes
down to access and they've gotten asmuch of that as anybody when when they
do it. So we'll see.I think it'll be fun. It's always
the more the better. At thevery least, you get the profiles and
you really get to know a lotof the players in some of the situations
(08:05):
better than you did, and that'sthat's always good. I said this to
the dude who's kind of in chargeof this for NFL Films. We had
him on the show on Friday,and I said, the Bengals were on
hard Knocks in two thousand and nineand number one that kind of triggered a
rebrand of sorts because they've been sobad the year before, so unlikable,
and I've always felt like there wasa there has to this day, fifteen
(08:26):
years later, a special attachment thata lot of us have to that team,
which, as you well know,was a very emotional year, and
I think it started with the storiesthat were told on Hard Knocks. I
think Hard Knocks is why Mike Zimmeris a beloved character in Cincinnati. And
you know, obviously that year featuredChad, featured Carson, but also featured
(08:48):
Tank Johnson and Tom Nelson and ReggieKelly's injury, and that team I have
a great amount of fondness for.They were good, they won ten games,
but in large part because of howthey were covered in AUGUSTA. No,
I think you do learn a lotabout these guys. But I go
back to you talk about Mike Zimmerbeing beloved. How about Mike Zimmer and
Jay Gruden being head coaches? Yeah, I mean twenty thirteen. Your part
(09:11):
of the reason why there was agreementto bring Hard Knocks back was feeling like
a lot of these coaches deserved jobsand weren't getting the attention and respect that
they should have been getting. Andboth of them end up getting jobs after
after that year. And I don'tknow people how many people know this,
but a part of the reason whyZach Taylor ended up getting a job with
(09:33):
the Rams was Sean McVay seeing howhe sort of handled himself on Hard Knocks
when he was with the Dolphins.Twelve. Yeah, and liking his tenor
with people, his communication skills,and that being sort of the groundwork for
what became a job there. Thatwas the job that set him on the
path that he's been on his career. It wasn't the thirteen consecutive scoreless quarters.
(09:54):
Well, he was the offensive coordinatorat U. See now, wasn't
that. That wasn't the one.That wasn't the one, so you still
had some all right. The otherthing that happened while you were gone and
I intentionally only left his two minutes. Okay, T Higgins signs is tender.
Okay, there you go. Drawwell, I mean cool. Here's
the thing. This the moment theydid, what you have to do with
(10:18):
the tag? What do you dowith the tag? You slap it?
Slap, slap it on him?You slap the moment they slapped the tag
on ta at the first semantically responsiblewould be apply apply, Yeah, but
most people say slaps. People liketo say slaps. My point, once
they put the tag on T.Higgins at the first possible instant they could,
we knew it was ending here.Trade requests. All the other stuff
(10:43):
was just was just sizzle. Thesteak was this everybody knew the Bengals knew
where this ends. This ends att Higgins coming here making twenty two million
dollars and having everything to play for, and everybody knowing that that's probably the
best decision for them. Well,it's interesting you brought up slap in the
tag because this brings me to oneof my ideas. So, if you
(11:03):
are the winner of the NFL WalterPeyton Man of the Year Award, you
get a Walter Payton on your jersey. If you're a team captain, you
get the Captain c I think ifyou're the franchise tag, they should get
one of those Prices right tags.Yeah, put it on your jersey for
the season, and that way it'sa little bit of an honor Yeah,
franchise Yeah, or it just saysis it just it's the yellow with the
(11:26):
dots yes, tea across the bigtag written in sharpie new every game I
was getting my oil changed watching Prices. Right. They had the tags and
said, now there's an idea.Yeah, I thought I'd run it past
you first. That's a good one. I like that idea. What do
you do with guys that are giventhe tag then sign an extension. Do
they not get the tag then thatyear because it's kind of been taken off
(11:48):
because T is the only one,the only guy, so he'd be he'd
be the only one with this weirdthis weird price. Yeah, it's even
more special. Welleh. I'm forit. I just wanted to make sure
that we're on board. I don'tcare. I'm fine with anything I think
they like. I like the soccercaptain's armband, okay, because that it
can pass around to every if someoneleaves or whatever. I like the idea
(12:09):
of the the armband that can goanywhere. You can just rip it off
somebody's arms. We're a different colorjersey like soccer goalies do. Yeah.
Okay, you have highlighted a Bengalsfirst world problem at the Athletic dot Com
that I want to spend some timeon. Joe Burrow is a fashion model.
Now, I also want to getinto the concept of twenty twenty four
being Super Bowl or bust. That'sright, Paul, it's June. Yeah,
(12:35):
sixteen minutes after three o'clock Read PaulTheathletic dot Com, catch the podcast
The Growler where you get your podcasts, and follow him on x at Paul
Danner Junior. He's here till four, We're here till six. I'm mowegar.
Glad you're with us today on ESPNfifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station ESPN fifteen
thirty. I'm owegar. By theway, we post our show preview video
(12:58):
on x thanks to Emmerying Federal CreditUnion, your credit union with heart since
nineteen thirty nine, gonna Emory FCUdot org. Paul Danner Junior is here
till four o'clock. On a myriadof Bengals related offseason issues. You folks
at the athletic went around the leagueand everybody had to chime in with the
(13:20):
biggest question, the biggest concern ascamp approaches, and so I'm thinking,
like, what sort of manufactured controversyare we going to have here? And
your question was should they add aveteran running back? Which is a fair
question. Yeah, and maybe theyshould, which is interesting we were asking
the same thing a year ago.But if that's the biggest question, these
(13:41):
guys are going to go fourteen andthree, right, yeah? I mean
well, or maybe they'll start fiveor six and zero and win a potential
bet for the last undefeated team,as you promoted yesterday on the podcast.
You know, I just think itfeels like a spot that could use another
(14:01):
body. Yeah, and that's notto say that there isn't a great plan
in place and a lot of excitementabout the combination of Zach Moss and Chase
Brown. It's just that some kindof a veteran third down back feels more
likely to be there than, youknow, Chris Evans being the fourth guy,
or or Trayvon Williams getting another shot, not that he wouldn't still maybe
(14:24):
make the team, but just feelslike they should have one more body there.
And in fairness, we'll say itagain, it could be someboj p
Ryan trying to refill that role.Denver has a bevy of running backs and
p Ryan potentially could be on theoutstre so maybe they're waiting on that.
Jerck McKinnon has been sitting out there. I mean, there's there's there's veterans
(14:46):
that are out there. If therewas no one available, you wouldn't bring
it up. But there certainly seemslike there could be options and maybe that's
one that they signed. But you'reright, it's a minor it's a minor
issue. You're not talking about somehuge deal that could kill the season.
Here, it's a you know,you're working on the edges. I feel
like Trayvon Williams has been with ateam since like two thousand and four.
He's in there. I mean,yeah, he's uh twenty nineteen. We
(15:09):
do this every summer with him,right, And then to a degree,
Chris Evans soon like, we dothis, We do this every summer,
like, well, maybe those guyscan handle a bigger if. By now
at this position, we're still askingthe same things. We don't need to
ask anymore. We know, right, we know we know that they're not
they're not viewed as necessarily a bigtime a big time answer. You have
a piece coming out speaking of runningbacks, ye where you take a look
(15:31):
at the off season programs by ChaseBrown and andre Yoshabash. Yeah, I
am really excited about this. Thisis be out tomorrow. During the off
season, I sort of you know, just in conversations, you know,
with with people associated the team,one thing that kept coming up was have
you seen Chase Brown running routes?Like, man, he looks he is
(15:54):
like really looking good. He lookslike a receiver out there and that was
not the tenor around him this timelast year, and it's a major improvement.
And the same for Yoshibash. Imean, we talked about this a
little bit. You know, hecould be the two time winner of the
Moeger Award for the Receiver of theSummer because he's looked like that. It's
(16:15):
not you know, he looked likethat last year as somebody who really was
opening eyes. Well, he's doingthe same thing this year because you can
see him taking the next step ina lot of ways. I thought he
looked like the best receiver on thefield for a lot of OTAs with no
Jamar t there and so but whatthey did was, you know, they
hired a personal receivers coach and wentall in. Neither of them said they'd
(16:41):
ever had one, and they havereceivers coaches, but you know, your
time on the field is limited andthere's almost no offseason program real work you
can do, but the chance toreally go after the fundamentals. Chase Brown's
been running back and never really learnedhow to properly run routes. So there's
a lot of stuff about Yoshivasha's game. Is a former heptathlete where he's never
really had the chance to just spendmonths and months working on those basic fundamentals
(17:04):
and the repeated nature of being moresolid with your hands, understanding what muscles
and how to use them properly toget the most out of your cuts and
run full suite and speed with yourstride length and all that stuff. And
they went eight weeks, ten weekswithout taking a day off. They were
you know, there's somebody who alsotrains Jacobe Myers, and he was doing
(17:26):
that in Vegas. They flew outthere twice on the weekends during OTAs to
get extra work in there so theywouldn't miss any sessions. They have been
relentless and Milton and it showed.Burrows talked about it, Zach Taylor has
talked about it. Everybody that youtalk to has been like, man,
you can really see a difference.It really opens up a lot for what
Chase Brown can be. And soit's sort of the story about how this
(17:49):
came, about what exactly has happenedwith them training with this guy, Drew
Lieberman down in Atlanta, and whyit's changed a lot of perspective about what
they can be and how they fitthis coming season when people with the Bengals
were saying, do you man,have you watched Chase Brown? Did you
feel like saying do you guys knowwho he is? Y cause you look
(18:11):
pretty explicitive last year he'd ever played. But look the deck has been cleared
there. I mean, look,no doubt this is a part of the
whether popular or unpopular and people havetheir opinions on Joe Mixon moving to Houston.
It's about freeing up Chase Brown tobe the guy and liking what they
saw in the small bits that theysaw them and Zack Moss a part of
(18:34):
that too, but I think thevision is about Chase Brown. Zach Moss
is a nice piece to go alongsidehim in an insurance policy. It's about
Chase Brown potentially being a real guy. And you saw that in the screen
game last year and some of theruns when they finally got it, but
he didn't have a ton of work. And now if you can really get
him into open space with that speedas a receiver more as a receiver something
(19:00):
that this all started just by ZachTaylor mentioning it to him in the exit
interview back in January, saying,look, we need we'd love for you
to be a better receiver and himtaking taking it on and taking it to
this level that can go a longway. And I think that's something that
they were kind of betting on whenwhen the mix and move happened to you.
You mentioned Andre winning the Moeggor Award. Yes, we have to determine
(19:22):
if there are like limits, likeyou know how you're no longer a rookie
in baseball if you have like onehundred and thirty at bats. Andre played
in sixteen games last year. Hecaught fifteen passes. Does statistically that disqualify
him from being the guy that Iobsess over every summer? No, okay,
(19:45):
I think I think because there's somuch to be learned between the first
and the second season. I thinkafter year two of actually playing some mm
hmm, it's over. Okay,No more like you've you've kind of right,
there's no year three leads sneak upon idea. No one's like wait,
no one's really waiting on the yearthree. It felt like with Audentate,
it was like, well, it'syear eight. He's got a good
(20:06):
catch radius, does he? Yeah? Well, I just I think the
the element of opening eyes in theoff season is kind of reserved for year
one or year two, and he'skind of a special case in that regard.
You also have to have some kindof a background that suggests what his
does that we was so raw atthe beginning that it's okay. So I
think it's okay, okay, butit's over after this. This is a
(20:30):
he cannot be a three time Thereare three time winners. No, you
get you get two at most ifyou have a special case. All right,
So the piece on Chase Brown andandre Yosebash will be out tomorrow the
Athletic dot com or and why Timesdot com. That's right, they are
both connected. Look for that tomorrow. It's twenty nine away from four o'clock
sports headlines. Uh, and thenwe have to talk about the Bengals season
(20:55):
being one of super Bowl or bust. But I think I have a different
way of putting it. I think, okay, I don't know. It
is twenty nine away from four o'clockon Moegar. This is ESPN fifteen thirty
Cincinnati Sports Station Everla, home oflifetime powertrain protection and guaranteed credit approval from
their family to yours for LIVEKELSEYSHEV dotCom Reds and Pirates again tonight at GABP.
(21:18):
Hunter Green versus Mitch Keller seven toten Tonight. Red's trying to make
it two in a row after areally fun evening last night. Ellie Dela
Cruz stole the show by putting ona show, but Carson Spiers was very
good. Levi Jordan had an awesomeBig League debut, Jonathan India had a
great game. Red's beat the Pirates. Hopefully they can do it again tonight.
(21:40):
By the way, yes, thereare Steamboat l T shirts available at
Sincy shirts dot com. Go getone starting lineup tonight thanks to Madewell Greater
Cincinnati's roofing at exterior restoration Experts MaadewellRestoration dot Com, indiat tewond Elliott Short,
Candelario's dhing Steers at first base,Freelian right, Stevenson's catching espen All
(22:00):
at third, Benson and left StewartFairchild in center field. Nick Lodolo goes
on the injured list with a blister. Cincinnati calls up pitcher yazvr zulu Eta.
Zulu Eta, He's Cuban. He'son the big squad. Austin Winn
has cleared Waivers. He's off toLouisville. Y'all's are home tonight for Schomberg
and the US men's national soccer teamwill play New Zealand in an international friendly
(22:25):
on Tuesday, September the tenth.That game will be played at the Soccer
Stadium on the West End of CincinnatiPaul Danner Juniors here. What did last
night's win do for the Pythagorean winloss record? Do we know? Have
we figured out if that's changed fromyou know, I'm impressed by the banner
hanging behind me that it was fortyand thirty seven. Ply all those runs.
(22:48):
It's now forty one and thirty seven. Wow. So I don't know
if we have to change that.No, but you keep it rolling.
Yesterday, our friend Jeff Carr,who does a terrific job on Reds and
among other outlets, tweeted out thatthe Reds Pythagorian win loss record was forty
and thirty seven. I don't knowwhat that means. They're better than you
(23:11):
think, That's what I mean.Has a team ever qualified for the playoffs
because of its I think we shouldtotally just switch to the Pythagorean, which
you will find many people who willagree with that statement. Many people who
will agree with that statement it shouldn'tbe about winning and losing that night.
Do they have Pythagorian standings? Iprobably to those probably, So you now
(23:37):
you're making me go down like aWhat I appreciated last night was in watching
was it felt like every batter forboth teams hit the ball over one hundred
mile. I mean like it wasjust like it was batting practice for both
teams. All that couldn't believe thePirates only had three runs at one point.
Yeah, we just felt like everybodywas just absolutely pummeling the baseball at
least puts one on the boat.And then O'Neil crue comes up, and
(24:00):
I mean even like Sadax Carl waslike, oh god, wow, it's
insane. Well, and you couldhear like there was a small group of
children, yeah, chanting overrated rightbefore he swung that. And I felt
like that was a really nice lessonto everyone that don't don't don't chant overrated
at people. Okay, like it'sit's not gonna end. Well, well,
(24:23):
how it works on this show.When Ellie has a bad week and
a half for two weeks, Ihave to hear how he's a bost and
yeah, maybe sick could use somemore seasoning. And he's overrated. So
when he has a good ten days, I get to talk about how awesome
he's gonna be. Yeah. Howhe's thirty fifth in baseball in ops,
(24:44):
ahead of such people like Austin Riley, Willia Damas, Cody Bellinger, Corey
Seeger, among others. He's eighteenthin baseball and walks. He still strikes
out a ton one hundred and threek's, but he is taking more pitches
and he's walking more. He issixth in baseball and offensive war stolen bases
have a lot to do with that. Well, that's part of it.
(25:04):
Twenty two year old player. Really, Yeah, you kidding me? Well,
And the funny thing was, andhe hit the boat last night,
and he hit the boat and itwasn't the most exciting thing that he did.
Yeah, when he just had adouble on a base hit up the
middle, Yeah, I mean,and you get to watch him just turn
the corner and just fly to secondbase. He he is the ultimate weapon
(25:26):
for a franchise because he met inbaseball. It's so you just want to
have a reason for people to tunein, and you have to tune in
every night because every night it seemslike you you see something you know.
And I love how every time peoplehave to, you know, give superloves
about him and always starts with whatnot since nineteen hundred, it's like how
(25:51):
many of these can there be?And it's like him and Ricky Anderson,
you know, and it's like,I just these things keep showing up and
at a certain point that matters.At point, it just matters. I
don't I don't think anybody's arguing againstEli Da Day La Cruise. At his
point, he's growing. Oh he'sgoing if he goes like oh for four
(26:11):
tonight and oh for for tomorrow,yeah, I'll be on tomorrow night.
I'll hear people who will say,you know, maybe you're making this guy
out to be something a little bitmore than he is. Well, he's
pretty awesome right now. He isawesome and and and he is clearly you
know this was what he must watch. Well not only that, and it's
like it's it's a matter of youknow, it was always going to be
(26:33):
about Okay, do your your slumpsor your skids where you're struggling, do
they start getting shorter, and yourstretches where you're you're hot start getting longer,
and you hope that what you're seeingnow because he has put that skid
behind him, is starting to seethat, and you start seeing that more
and more, and that's what happens. That's how players develop. You just
do and and if you get stretchesof this, if you get where seventy
(26:59):
five percent the year is good Elliethat we've seen to this point. Yeah,
it's MVP stuff, yes, correct, and steamboat stuff and yes,
hitting the boat. I mean,how about how about? Of course I
love it. I've I've worked withc Trent Rosecrans for a long time and
he talks to go this is likehis favorite thing. I loved. I
knew he was going to do ittoo. I was like, I knew
he'd go to the boat, findthe people, and it was like from
(27:22):
some bowling alley in Chilli, Cothedecided what a night that the Shawnee Lanes
decided to come up. I lovestuff like that. I remember Trent doing
that. We were covering Bengals atSaints in twenty fourteen. Bresham ball.
Yeah, got intercepted by a Saintsfan who refused to give it up and
(27:44):
went down and wrote a great storyon the people that had got the ball
stolen from him. Everything He's like, I'm going right, he was just
all the way on the way.I love Trent loves doing this, so
I love when he does that.And I was expecting that shout out to
Shawne Lanes in chi in Chillicothe.Yeah, h I was gonna say something
about Chelli Cofee. It's a beautifulplace and I'm my colle one of my
(28:06):
college girlfriends from Chelicothe. Wow,I'm sure she's probably listening right now.
I guarantee you. I can assureyou that's not happening. Is this season
super Bowl or bust? You said, uh, do you have a new
way to put it back to this? But you know you're gonna be What
does that mean? That's the thing. I don't know what it means.
I don't know what it means.I know what it means if you have
(28:29):
the sort of owner that's gonna sayif you don't win the title, I'm
gonna blow it up. That's thatdoesn't apply here. So here's how I
want to frame it. How long, like, I'll make this about Joe
specifically, but you could apply it, I guess to the team as a
whole. We're very impatient. Joe'sin his fifth year. It's mostly been
a honeymoon. We acknowledge some thingshave gone awry beyond his control, but
(28:53):
he's one of the faces of thisleague. The longer you go is one
of the faces of this league withoutwinning a ring. The fact that you
don't have a ring leads the conversationmore and more so for folks like myself.
We hope this season ends with Joebeing fitted for a ring to go
along with his backless suit jacket.If that doesn't happen, how much longer
(29:17):
until the narrative so to speak abouthim and maybe this era changes. Well,
I'm gonna need this. There's somethingthat I need to see that I
haven't seen yet. I need tosee a healthy Joe Burrow play and not
make it to the conference championship cameand not be one of the teams that
(29:38):
are there at the end battling toefor toe to toe with Patrick Mahomes like
yet to see that. We cantalk about the injuries and maybe the bust
this year is can Joe stay healthyand if he doesn't. Then then you
start talking about what's happening here andhow do you go forward? And do
you consider other things? I guessdepending on what it was. But to
(29:59):
me, I'm not He's been knockingon the door every time he's been fully
healthy, you know, with realweapons is twenty one two out of three
years. So show me a seasonwhere he's fully healthy and it doesn't quite
come together, it's not quite right. He plays poorly for long stretches in
meaningful games, or it cost thema playoff win earlier in the playoffs.
(30:23):
Show me that. Until I seethat, I don't know what we're talking
about. So that was my answerto the same question. Okay, it
was I need to see him havea spectacularly poor regular season where he plays
seventeen games and they win six oracross multiple seasons playoff flameouts like Manning getting
(30:45):
destroyed early in his career in playoffgames where they didn't score a point or
they were beaten in games they hadno business losing to, and then for
Peyton until he finally won one,it was well, gee is you know,
his gaudy stats, does a lotof things, uber skilled, but
he can't get out of his ownway in the postseason. I've obviously seen
him lose playoff games. I've seenhim lose two coin flip games, and
(31:07):
I've seen him have good moments inthose games. I've seen him come up
short in some respects in those games. But I've never seen anything that I
felt like was a direct reflection ofhis inability to rise to the occasion.
I've seen him lose big games,but I haven't seen them. Hey,
their home playoff favorites by more thana touchdown and they lose. Or he
has a four turnover game in apostseason game and he's the main reason why
(31:30):
they lose. And I haven't seenhim author a terrible regular season. Now,
look, they didn't have a greatrecord when he got hurt his rookie
year, but who knows what wouldhave happened over those final six games.
And most of us disregarded the winlost total anyway. But I was asked
that question last week, and Isaid, because the comparison was, well,
God Elway went to a bunch ofSuper Bowls early, didn't win,
(31:51):
and then we got impatient and wedid it with Manning with Burrow. I
answered it almost the exact same way. If if he turns in a six
and eleven this year, which Ifind impossible to believe will happen, if
he plays even close to seventeen games, or if I see in consecutive years
early postseason flameouts, in particular ingames that they're supposed to win, that's
(32:15):
when it changes. That's when itchanges, and it hasn't. And in
fact, you know, we caneverybody wants to parse how or why they
have won laden seasons. But Imean those two years you had Joe Burrow
winning games in December and January tothe point that it was a meaningful streak,
could double digit I mean where youcouldn't beat him there until it happened
(32:36):
in the EFC Championship game obviously inKansas City, where he was, you
know, one play away from beatingMahomes again to go to another Super Bowl.
I mean, it's I don't Idon't understand that, And I just
think we need to see something besideshealth play a role in December and January.
(32:58):
And argue what you want about theman. The defense carried them,
Sure, that's okay, but theydid enough to win. We five into
in the playoffs. They have doneenough to win in those games. So
I'm not gonna you know, I'mnot an old does the Super Bowl run.
He doesn't get enough credit for notturning it over when he was getting
hit a thousand times. And andyou know, so we how much are
(33:23):
we going to talk about the leadershiprole of quarterbacks in this league and then
just discount it when you start talkingabout how he changes the way people believe
that the Bengals can win on histeam. His teammates believe, his defense
believes, the players around him believebecause he leads that he sets that tone.
He creates that environment. The quarterbacksets the tone man, and he
(33:46):
has done that here to the pointthat he's a part of why everybody plays
better when he's out there doing histhing. He's a part of why I'm
not gonna throw QB wins out thereas a stat but changing the culture and
setting the tone about how everybody isexpected to work and the standard that is
set nobody. I mean, you'regonna have a hard time finding anybody setting
(34:08):
that better than Joe Burrow does herejust because of the way that he operates
is just is kind of different,and it's notable when you talk to other
people in the room. Now weknow that. Now here's what I fear.
I don't think is gonna happen.But I'm I'm I'm fearful that a
will Joe gets through training camp healthyand he answers the bell game one,
(34:30):
but he doesn't play well and they'reupset at home, and the postgame call
in show will feature people who say, well, because he's too busy being
a fashion model, Yeah that's comingye. Well yeah, the moment you
do anything, yes, outside ofthe realm of football that is discussed or
republic or different or not relatable.Like if it's, hey, Joe's down
(34:53):
at like Lake Norris hanging out ona boat. Oh, I can relate
to that. But he's in Paris, he's got the backless suit jacket.
Uh, he's doing podcasts where he'stalking about brands. But people can't relate
to that. Yeah. So whenwhen it's and I saw this happen with
Vado, right, because he's he'sthe guy that goes on the road and
(35:14):
goes to art museums, Suddenly folksare like, I can't relate to that.
Now if it's he's out in theroad getting drunk and stuff, well,
people can relate to that. Andso with Burrow, eh, you
know, when he's going to Vegasat UFC fights folks like that. But
now it's it's Paris. It's kindof unrelatable. It's on this different stratosphere.
(35:36):
So is the backless suit jacket.If he plays poorly, it's gonna
be brought up a lot. Yeah. No, I hope our part of
the punch. I hope our postgameradio hosts are ready. Yeah. Yeah,
it's gonna be a part of thePunchline's gonna be a part of everything.
It's just like it's gonna end upbeing what if if the Vikings and
the Bengals both struggle, You're gonnajust get you know, you're gonna get
(35:57):
these They're gonna be trotted back up. But that's everybody. It's when you
get paid ungodly amounts of money.The conversation changes when you do stuff that
is on a different level, indifferent places, doing different things, it
always changes the conversation. And butyou got that's part of it. Man,
win games, do your thing?Whatever would you buy one? I
(36:20):
just cut I just cut my suittoday, did you Yeah? I went
in my kid, I went intomy closet and with the scissors, and
I said, Yep, this iswhat it's gonna be. This is the
future. I'm just gonna cut abig hole in it right now. Yeah.
So maybe next week I'll wear that. Yeah, you don't have to,
Okay, but that's fine. Waitfor the me. The memes are,
the memes are coming. Oh boy, they're coming. There coming.
(36:43):
There's there's no question. There's gonnabe a They're they're gonna be putting like
the l on his back and allthe other stuff. But none of it
matters if he wins. Correct ifit matters, none of it matters.
All right, awesome stuff as alwaysappreciated. Well look for the piece on
Chase Brown and Andrea Josebash at TheAthlete. In the meantime, folks can
listen to the podcast The Growler Podcast, most recently featuring me, the most
(37:06):
recently featuring you, Paul, Don'tLie Go Get that Bengals Square of Dishonor,
and our favorite futures bets for theupcoming season. Paul, Thank You,
No Problems with a Pleasure. FollowPaul on Twitter, slash x at
Paul Danner Junior. It's seven awayfrom four o'clock. Well, we'll spend
more time on Ellie. I'm gonnago to a place you don't want me
to go, but for a goodreason. Next on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati
(37:30):
Sports Station. Uh digestive, Howthese shoes can take over your entire day,
leaving those like Taylor Hello, feelingbloated it and I'm
Mo Egger News
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