The Tony and Mo Football Show -- 1/6/25

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the Tony and Mo Football Show Live from
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visit Encore Dot Tech and Station East Coast subs Penn Station.
It's all in good taste Honda East Cincinnati's Ultimate Honda Experience.
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Just off I seventy one, Exit fifty inside the Holiday

(00:23):
and at the Roberts Center, and by your Tri State
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for the past eight years. Chevrolet Together, let's drive on
the official home of the Bengal Cincinnatis. ESPN fifteen thirty.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
What's up, Good afternoon, Al Malweger with Tony Pike.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
It's the season finale of The Tony and Mo Football
Show on ESPN fifteen thirty. We are not at Twin
Peaks today. We were originally supposed to be at the
Westchester location. You might be aware that we are dealing
with Tony at your house. How many inches you get?

Speaker 4 (00:58):
We were at twelve when I left this morning, so
I'm assuming we're we're in the fourteenth range somewhere around there.
We got hammered.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, we got we got hammered. I went out.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
We have a little outdoor patio table and there was
a foot of snow on it and it is still
coming down here on the west side of Cincinnati, and
so Twin Peaks in Westchester, I'm gonna guess not even
open today. But the decision was made this morning as
a media organization.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Everybody else is telling people not to leave.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
It would be pretty stupid for us to tell people, Hey,
coming out to a bar that is probably not even open.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
So we're not at Twin Peaks.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Don't go to Twin Peaks today, don't go anywhere today
instead of hang out with Tony and I. We still
have a show. It's the same show. We're just we're
not at Twin Peaks. This kind of reminds me of COVID.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Tony.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
This is weird. I don't know how to handle this.
We're not. It's one thing not being at Twin Peaks,
but not being in the same room with you as different.
And it kind of takes our our Tony and Mo
show to a different level because we don't talk all
weekend about the game itself. Now we don't even to
see each other and we're doing a show together about
the game. I was lucky enough to get to see

(02:05):
a Saturday at Fifth Third Arena and kind of kind
of laid the groundwork of you know, it just feels
like this is the typical Cincinnati sports weekend. It turned
out being in a sense that way. The Bearcats lost,
the Bengals do find a way to win, and then
the Kansas City Chiefs literally no showed in Denver yesterday
and took all hope away very quick at those four

(02:26):
thirty games.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Which, yeah, which we're gonna talk about what happened yesterday afternoon.
And by the way, credit to you for getting to
work and getting there safely and good stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
How do you.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
Handle the shoveling, because I tried to like get ahead
of things last night and and like do a preemptive
shoveling of the driveway, not the whole thing, but the walkway.
Try to find it at least a path from the
car to the house. And then I walked out this
morning and it took me like thirty minutes just to
shovel myself somewhere to get to the car and get out.

(02:57):
Now I'm concerned. It's not like the temperatures are warming up.
This snow is going to be on the ground for
a while. How do you handle your shoveling duties?

Speaker 3 (03:04):
So last night I shoveled the walkway, did the walkway first,
then I started to do the driveway, and after like
like free back and forth, you know where I pushed
the shovel. Yeah, I could come back. I looked over
at the walkway. It was covered with snow. So I said,
screw it. Yeah, what's what's the point, right, What's what's

(03:26):
the point?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
So, uh, your children aren't school age yet.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Mine is thrilled with the prospect of maybe not having
school at all this week, an extension of Christmas break,
which has already frankly gone way too long.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
So that's what I'm dealing with right now.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
It's exciting, you know. I'm good for one of these
every now and then, and then I'm done with it.
I got my snow for the year I had. I
was able to take the kids sledding a little bit yesterday,
but even that, it's like, you got it. It's like
an hour to get the kids dressed. You're out there
for ten minutes, they're cold, and then you go in
and they're called for the next hour.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
So where we live, we have a hill in our backyard,
which is where everybody in the neighborhood wants to come sledding.
And you know, when I was a kid, if I
went sledding, I didn't need somebody to push me down
the hill. We have apparently decided like I'm the guy
that's gonna push every neighborhood kid down the hill.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
So that combined with a shoveling attempt. I told Austin
this and quick hits, I feel like I played an
NFL game, all right. So it's our season finale, Tony
Pike and I have a lot to get to between
now and six o'clock. Obviously, the news of the day
of the Bengals, would you call it an overhaul?

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Moving on from four.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
Assistant coaches, Yeah, I think moving on and how quick
they moved on, I think is a statement of the
importance and understanding the importance of what this offseason is.
I also think it's understanding the importance of making sure
that that new coordinator is on the same page as
Zach Taylor, and surely making sure that coordinator is on
the same page with Duke Tobin, so that the decisions

(04:59):
they make in reagency and the draft all aligne to
what's going to bring success on the field.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
Right, So chances are you know this, lou Ana Rumo
gone after six seasons as the Bengals offensive coordinator, linebackers
coach James Betcher gone, defensive line coach Marion Hobby fired,
and same for offensive line coach Frank Pollock, which means
today Tony will be the last time we ever talked
about glass eaters. Here's the fascinating thing for me, and

(05:25):
Zach was asked this today. So the Bengals win on
Saturday night, the Jets win, and then the Chiefs no
show in Denver's What's just I don't know. Weirdly fascinating
to me is if Kansas City played and wins, the
Bengals are preparing for a postseason game today with coaches
that instead they've decided to move on from. Would the

(05:47):
Bengals have pulled the trigger on lou Anarrumo. Let's say
they play this weekend in the wildcard round and lose.
Are they firing lou Ana Rumo, Frank Pollack and the
other two guys? How deep would they have had to
go in the post season with coaches that they've chosen
to fire, with those guys being given a chance to
save their jobs. I think that's interesting. But to me,

(06:09):
what today is about. Austin and I were talking about
this a little bit. I know you guys were as well.
The arrow is now pointing directly at Zach Taylor, and
you might say it's also pointing directly at Duke Tobin
head coaches. Zach Taylor talked about these decisions being his,
which I believe. Okay, fine, if we are doing this
a year from now and talking about the Bengals in

(06:29):
Joe Burrow's prime being on the outside looking in, finishing
in third place, not being a playoff team, finishing around
five hundred, maybe wasting more individual seasons like the one
that Joe Burrow had, like the one that Jamar Chase had, liked,
the one that Trey Hendrickson had. I have a hard
time believing Zach Taylor is going to be the coach
of the team in twenty twenty six.

Speaker 4 (06:49):
You mentioned all the individual accomplishments. I even throw Chase
Brown in their thirteen hundred and fifty yards from scrimmage. Sure,
and if you're talking about Zach Taylor, the inexcusable usage
or non usage of Chase Brown in those early season
games that they did lost. No, it just wasn't It's
just not the individual accomplishments. They went into this season
with what a fourth place schedule because of how they

(07:10):
finished last year. The schedule was supposed to help them. Instead,
they have to win five games in a row against
most of the time in superior con competition. It gets
them to nine to eight. They don't get in the playoffs.
Now they have the seventeenth pick overall, and I still
have the numbers seventeen and thirty six and one score
games thirteen and twenty three in the AFC North, the

(07:32):
most demeaning one and eleven in the first two weeks
of each season that he's been the head coach of
the Cincinnati Bengals, back to back years of not making
the playoffs. They've wasted an unbelievable season from so many
individual players on this team. I don't think it's time
for Zach Taylor right now, but there better be a
sense of urgency. There better be some heat on the

(07:53):
seat for Zach Taylor. Understanding that if we're talking about
this again next year. In all likelihood, he should not
be the coach after that for the Cincinnati Bengals.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
And I think there's a reasonable chance we have our
answer by October first, because you referenced something to me
that I think a lot of people have started talking
a lot about over the last day or so, and
that's the oh to three start caught up to him.
And it's not so much like you know, it's the
oh and three start because the math instantly gets tough.
You're playing ketchup. We do it all year long. You've
related it to the red season, right, boy, if they

(08:26):
can just get to five hundred by October thirty first, boy,
if they could just get to week ten at five hundred, Boy,
if they could just get to December, for like we,
I'm tired of doing that. Right For once, I want
to see him play from ahead for once. I want
to watch teams chase them for once. I want to
get to the midway part of the season. Talking about
the Bengals having a legitimate chance to I don't know,
do what the Kansas City Chiefs did yesterday and sit

(08:47):
out Week eighteen because they've salted away the number one
overall seed It's not.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Just the math though, it's the teams they're losing to
this season.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
You know, if people got mad at me for pointing
it out last night, they lost a lot of one
score again games. They lost a lot of games that
could have gone the other way. It remains inexcusable. To
lose to the New England Patriots at home Week one.
You could say, well, they took a touchdown off the
board that should have counted the official what They lost
sixteen to ten to a Patriots team that would go
four and thirteen and fire its coach after one season

(09:19):
that played a backup quarterback that day. That team was
worked by the Patriots. Inexcusable. Go back to two years ago.
They lose to the Tennessee Titans, who were dreadful Week
four to fall to one and three. Two years ago,
they lose to Mitch Trubisky and Cooper Rush weeks one
and two to fall to zero to two. Like I'm
gonna start there, I'm gonna harp on this for the
next nine months. Because the idea is to seriously contend

(09:42):
for championships. It's really hard to do that when you're
constantly having to play catch up under Zach Taylor. With
the exception of twenty twenty one when they did go
to the Super Bowl, they're constantly having to play catch up.
This team finished nine to five over its last fourteen
games and is on the outside looking in because as
they lost twice at home in the first three weeks
and started zero to three.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
You know, I talked a lot about this, and I
agree with Austin's points that he made earlier of you know,
Joe Burrow had the crucial fumble against the Kansas City Chiefs,
and Dejon Anthony playing on the fourth and sixteen, and
Joe Burrow probably having his worst statistical game of the
season against the New England Patriots. What I do struggle
with mo is something that we've talked about the usage

(10:24):
of Chase Brown, who is now one of the best
weapons of this team. You highlighted the usage against the
New England Patriots. How about one week later, four carries
thirty one yards, that's seven point eight to carry and
zero pass receptions. After the New England game, he touched
the ball four times against Kansas City, almost eight yards

(10:45):
per touch, and didn't see the field anymore. So I
equate that that's Zach Taylor. That's personnel, that's decision making,
and you had a whole offseason to come up with
the game plan. You had a whole offseason to come up.
Can he pass protect? Can he do that? I get it.
They didn't have Jamar Chase at training camp, they didn't
have t Higgins. For some of training camp, Burrow was
dealing with the wrist, but all systems were go. Week one,

(11:08):
Jamar was out there, Burrow was out there, and they
played the worst team arguably in football, and they know
showed and then they let one inexplicably slip away in
Week two, and from that moment, as you mentioned, it
felt like it was going to be an uphill battle
the rest of the season. It ultimately became one.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
In season openers the last three years, you and I
have done a show immediately afterward, and in all three
instances you and I have used the word unprepared. There
are other mitigating circumstances, Burrow's health, Burrow's appendectomy, Burrow maybe
not quite being one hundred percent for the game this year.

(11:48):
The last three seasons, to start the year, the Cincinnati
Bengals have looked unprepared. And so that to me is
the storyline of training camp, and you know, we were
doing the Year and Reviews show with Lance McCay alis
and Austin made the point. You know, they did approach
the preseason differently. Starters did play, Joe Burrow got some
run in the preseason. It wasn't more physical training camp.

(12:08):
I acknowledge that, but the results were the same, and
so I cannot take them seriously as championship contenders as
long as September ends up unfolding the way it has
each of the last couple of years, in particular against
bad teams. It's seventeen minutes after three o'clock. It's the
Tony and Mo Football Show broadcasting until six o'clock. You
might be able to tell we are not at Twin

(12:29):
Peaks today, So don't go to I mean go to
Twin Peaks at some point. Yes, today would not be
the day to got We're not there, and I don't
want anybody coming over my house.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Tony's in studio. But how long did it take you
to get to work?

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Normally it takes me ten minutes. I was about thirty
five minutes today, and I think that's mostly because no
one else was insane enough to be on the roads.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
All right, very good. I'm at my house. Tony's in studio.
It's the same show, seventeen after three o'clock. I want
to talk about the defense that got lou in a
room fired when we come back seventeen minutes after three
o'clock on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station, twenty three.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Minutes after three o'clock.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
This is ESPN fifteen thirty, The Tony and Bo Football Show,
not as win peaks today. If you are out and about,
please drive safe. Hopefully you have stayed warm. Hopefully you
have avoided the roads. Tony is not Austin is not here.
I am sitting cowardly in the basement of my house.
Bengals win their season finale. They are not going to

(13:31):
the postseason. The Kansas City Chiefs no show against the
Broncos yesterday, which we'll get to coming up in just
about ten minutes. Lu Anarumo out as Bengals defensive coordinator
after six seasons. I think most I think we agree
that this was probably certainly not totally unexpected, probably the
right thing to do. In your opinion, Tony, what was
the biggest reason why this defense failed so poorly?

Speaker 4 (13:54):
This year. It just never felt to me like their
personnel match what they were trying to do. And I
know that has been what they've excelled at in years past,
but I genuinely think from offensive defensive side of the
ball to Duke Tobin that there needs to be a
serious conversation to get everyone on the same page because
the stuff lu An a Ruma was trying to do

(14:15):
you just saw wasn't working. Von Bell was too slow
at the back end. It took Genostone way too long
to get comfortable. They made the decision that they were
going to rely on Cam Taylor Britt as the number
one who decided that, who was working on the developmental
side and said yes, he's ready to do that. That
was a fail because Cam Taylor Britt got exposed as

(14:37):
not being a number one wide receive or number one corner.
They tried to bring guys back and run it back
on the defensive side. Sam Hubbard, I know he was
fighting through more injuries, was a shell of himself. They
have failed in many aspects to develop Joseph Osai. What's
the Miles Murphy development looked like. Trey Hendrickson was phenomenal.

(14:59):
He he did it without any help, and whether it's
Trey or Lou, they didn't really move him around. He
was gonna line up and beat you from the same
exact spot every single snap, and it just took them
too long to get the production from the young guys.
I thought McKinley Jackson closed the season great, so did
Chris Jenkins. I thought they got some good stuff from
Josh Newton. Jordan Battles, a guy that probably should have

(15:20):
been playing a lot sooner in the secondary, but it
felt like he wanted to hold on and whether it
was because the relationship was there, he felt like he
owed something to him to run it with those veteran guys,
and from an early part of the season, the tackling
in space, the mist assignments, it just wasn't there and
never really got itself going. And I credit the Bengals

(15:42):
for not allowing the last five to change that. Right,
It'd be very easy to say, well, they played better
down the stretch. They got the nine to eight young
players playing well. It was the move that they needed,
and it just from a personnel standpoint, wasn't working with
what he was trying to do.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, I think firing Lou was unsurprising if you followed
the season as a whole. I do think it raised
eyebrows for a lot of folks because of how they
played at the end of the year. I mean, look,
the interesting thing, sort of the ironic thing about Saturday
Night is the Bengals kept their postseason hopes alive because
of their defense.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Right.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
The defense made a play Trey Hendrickson specifically, when they
absolutely had to have it. You and I both know
this franchise has often changed its mind based on things
that have happened at the end of the season that
have been largely meaningless. They did not fall into that trap.
The fact that we found out before ten o'clock this

(16:37):
morning that lou was blown out tells me that Zach
Taylor made up his mind a while ago, and so
I give them credit for that. I do think it
was time for a new voice. At the same time,
Man lou Anromo was mainly undone by the inability of
so many recent acquisitions to the defense to do anything
this year. I was excited about Geno Stone, and he

(16:58):
made some plays late in the year. Took three months
for him to do anything of contain Sheldon Rankins, Von Bell.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, Sheldon Rankins.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
I mean, they didn't replace a guy who is one
of the best interior defensive linemen they've ever had in
DJ Reider. Now, I do like Chris Jenkins, and I
do like McKinley Jackson, but they didn't replace DJ Reider.
The Sheldon Rankins thing didn't work out, The Genostone thing
didn't work out, The Von Bell return didn't work out.
Miles Murphy had as many sacks this season as I have.
Joseph Osi, for the most part, hasn't worked out. You

(17:26):
have seen over the last few weeks flashes here or there.
Dax Hill. It might not be any fault of his
because he got hurt, but he's now had three NFL seasons.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
He's done nothing of any consequence.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Like those are failures by individual players, their failures by
the front office, and you could say their failures of
lou An Rumo as well.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
But that's the thing that I think of.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
I think of so many players that were expected to
plug holes left by departing players. Tony, You and I
have been talking about the lack of a pass rush
now for three years. That's why Miles Murphy was drafted
in twenty twenty three, the inability to replace should Obi
a woozy At one point Cam Taylor Brick this season,
who played well toward the end, he got benched. The
pass rush didn't come from anybody not named Trey Hendrickson

(18:09):
like and so what I wonder is, can can one
offseason be enough time for Duke Tobin to sufficiently remake
this defense? They don't have to be league best, they
don't have to be top five. They've got to be
middle of the pack. But for what they were early
in the season and midway through the season, to go
from that to the middle of the pack, I fear

(18:29):
is going to take more than one offseason.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
Yeah, And I also think, you know, did he wait
too long to go to some of the younger players
that did play well down the stretch? Had there been
more trial by fire in those situations? I wonder as well,
was the defense so bad or was it the system
based on the personnel? Like what if last year, when
the defense was historically bad, if Zach after the year

(18:53):
said we're going a different way with the defense, would
the same personnel with a new defensive coordinator, would they
have performed better this year? I don't know the answer
to that I don't know, but we've waited and we've wondered,
you know, can they just be okay? Can they be
middle of the pack, Can they be top twenty. I
don't know what that would have looked like. I don't

(19:13):
know if they waited too long. All we know is
that it didn't work out and the games they needed
at the most, it didn't work out when Pittsburgh came
to town and Russell Wilson rewrote the whole offensive system
as we know it by just getting the ball out quick.
It didn't work out. And this team gave themselves opportunities,
they gave themselves chances, and more times than not, the

(19:34):
defense failed them miserably. And that's lou An Arumo. That
that's his job, that's him at the forefront. I mean,
this is a guy who Mo years ago, we were
talking about him. We can't lose Louiennarumo in Cincinnati because
he was one of the hottest names and coaching and
now he's been given his walking papers today because the
defense is underperformed for two years.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah, you know, I think back to that Pittsburgh game
that you just read and to me and I don't
know if this was the case for Zach Taylor. I
don't know if this was the case for the front office,
but we reached the point of no return with lou
Ana Rumo four to go in that Pittsburgh game. Justin
Fields jogs onto the field. It's third and four. Sixty

(20:17):
five thousand people in the stands know what the Steelers
are going to do. Anybody watching on TV knows what
they're gonna do. I think everybody on the Bengal sideline
knew what the Steelers were going to do and they
were helpless against it.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
And that the point for me, you know, we're gonna
do the thing.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
A little bit later on, we talked about all the
different what ifs this season, all the different moments that
went wrong that if they go right, maybe this team
is still playing. That to me is where I threw
my hands up, because I like, I'm slower to default
than some to the fired the coordinator, fired the coach thing.
But that moment right there, at the tail end of
what was a pathetic defensive performance letting the Pittsburgh Steelers

(20:54):
do whatever they wanted to do. By the way, a
Pittsburgh offense that after that game totally fell off a Cliff.
At the the end of that game, here comes justin fields.
You know precisely what the Steelers are gonna do, and
he's sales past the line the game right it was
third and four. I think he gained seven or eight yards,
and I just remember at that point going okay, like, if.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
You can't execute that, yeah, we've.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Got to find a new voice. They need new players.
Duke Tobin's got his hands full with the defense this offseason.
If you can't get a stop there, I gotta get
somebody else.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
And again, I can't help but think the timing with
this happening, so quick, get your guy in place, and
make sure that that guy is now on the same
page as Duke Tobin, as the scouts, as those doing
the evaluating, to make sure that the pieces that are
in place are pieces that are gonna work together in

(21:49):
one motion here. Because this organization, it's like they haven't
spent This organization has tried to spend the money. They
have went and got the big free agents, They've used
the draft picks, but the players that have come in
don't seem to have matched what this team needs on
the field. So if I'm looking now at the direction
of the new defensive coordinator. I better be damn sure

(22:09):
that there is a connection there between him and Duke
Tobin and the scouting department, because it feels like that
to me is the biggest disconnect. Somewhere along that line,
there's a disconnect of the money that's spent and if
it's the right money that's been spent for the Cincinnati Bengals.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, and thinking as you were talking there about some
of the different moments, I mean, go back to the
game against Kansas City, right, the Dejahn Anthony play, and
you and I spent a lot of time on that,
put more time on the decision to what they rushed.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
Too, not blessed three. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Right, And so there were moments this year where we
spent more time than at any other point during lose
tenure talking about individual plays, individual decisions and things that
unfortunately sent the season sideways in many respects before it
even really started. It's twenty seven minutes away from four o'clock.
I do want and we'll do this coming up in

(23:02):
just about ten minutes. If you've got any names that
jump off the page to you, Tony for maybe who
should be the next Bengals defensive coordinator, and you do
have a two hours and twenty seven minutes to use
the term glass eaters again, and then we're gonna shelve
that for good too.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Okay, so just keep that in mind.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
First things first, let's talk about what happened this weekend
with not just the Bengals in Pittsburgh, but what happened
with the Chiefs in Denver. I appreciate what the Chiefs
did yesterday for two reasons. We'll explain next Tony and
Mo Football Show on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station.
Cincinnati's es sports headlines are a service of Kelsey Chevrolet,

(23:40):
home of lifetime powertrain protection and guaranteed credit approval from
their family to yours from Life kelseyshev dot Com. Bengals
have moved on from defensive coordinator lu An Aroumo, linebackers
coach James Betcher, and defensive line coach Marion Hobby. Also,
the era of the glass eater is over. Frank Pollock
out as Bengal offensive line coach. I promise you this, though,

(24:03):
whoever the new offensive line coach is, Tony will be intense.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yeah, and he'll have some sort of saying that every
old lineman is expected to live by and for that I.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Look forward to the golden rules of new coaching hires.
New offensive coordinators are always going to bring an up
tempo attack, New defensive coordinators are always going to be
more aggressive, and new offensive line coaches are always more intense.
Jacksonville fires Doug Peterson as their head coach. Trevor Lawrence
Getz is that like his fourth head coach since he's

(24:34):
been drafted, might as well be. It's four yeah, excuse me.
You see has hired two defensive assistants. Adam Braith White
will coach the safeties. Eddie Hicks will coach the cornerbacks.
The Reds have acquired a picture by the name of
Owen White, who had an ERA of twenty four in
three innings last year across for major league extints with
the Rangers. College basketball, you See falls out of both

(24:58):
major polls. Bearcats are at Baylor tomorrow. The Sean Miller
Show for tonight has been canceled. Ohio State's at Minnesota.
Kentucky the only area school ranked in the top twenty
five to sixth in the AP Pole seventh in the
coaches pull. The Wildcats with a good win, a home
win at Reperina over Florida, and a game that tipped

(25:18):
off at eleven o'clock in the morning. On Saturday, Tony
Pike is with me. It's the Tony Imo Football Show
on ESPN fifteen thirty. We are not at twin peaks today.
I appreciate what the Kansas City Chiefs did yesterday, Tony,
because the game kicked off at four to twenty. By
four forty, I think we knew they were not going
to have any prayer of winning that football game.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Because they didn't try.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
So they at least didn't make us wait all afternoon
and sit there in suspense. I knew after Denver's first
offensive drive, the Bengals season came to an end.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
Yeah, the rest went according to plan. It felt like
Aaron Rodgers was going to have this great performance for
the Jets. They would beat the Dolphins, and people would wonder,
does Rogers have another year? Where's he going to be?
They took care of the Jets, or they took care
of the Dolphins. But I'm with you. If you'd have
told me, like best case going in, I'd have said,
can you get to halftime and you're the Kansas City
Chiefs and it's like a one score game. But I

(26:12):
would say I waited till after the first touchdown because
Denver had been so good with the script. I'm like,
all right, let's get them off script and see what
old Spags pass for them. It was. It was such
a bad look. They completely no showed and I hope
for nothing but that coming back to bite them in
the worst possible way in the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Well, you know what's interesting is, and you and I
have talked about this, it's the amount of time between
the last game that counted. I mean, just as we
sit here today, Christmas feels like a lifetime ago. That
was the last time they played a game that counted.
It's the last time their main players played. And obviously
they're not going to play this weekend, so we're talking
about a three and a half week layoff.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
I'm just I'm.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Curious, not from the standpoint of rooting for or against.
I'm curious how that's going to impact them, if at all,
as they play in the postseason. I'll be honest, I
look at their their their playoff bracket. I don't think
any of the teams who they would play in the
divisional round will beat them. I don't think Houston will.
I don't think the Chargers will. I don't think the

(27:14):
Steelers will. Now different story if they get to the
conference title game and play either Baltimore or Buffalo.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
But I'm interested in that.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
Look, man, I don't blame the Chiefs for what they
did yesterday, what they did for for their for what
they are trying to accomplish. You know, we said it
last week. Andy Reid's job is to serve at the
pleasure of the people that he works for and act
with his franchises and his team's best best laid plans
in mind, right, he's he's paid to. He's paid to

(27:45):
make decisions based on what he thinks his best for
the for the Kansas City Chiefs. Time will tell if
he got it right. For me, as a Bengals fan,
that's the goal. That's what I want to watch next year.
I want to watch the Bengals in a game like that,
lay down and play like it's August. It gets back
to the whole slow start thing.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
You have no.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Chance of doing that week eighteen if you continue to
go oh to three oh and two in September every year.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's what I want to do. I want to do
that to another team.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
I want to lay down Week eighteen, play nobody of consequence,
knowing we got the number one seed locked up and
we can do whatever we want and someone else is
gonna have.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
To pay for it. That's the goal next year.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
I want to watch the Bengals in a game like
that next season Week eighteen.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
It's unfortunately the goal that we've wanted for any team
that we follow here in Cincinnati. For the Reds, you know,
can you ever get to a moment in the stretch
run where you're playing for seeding and not your playoff lives?
We mentioned this with the Bearcats and I'm sure the Muskies.
Can you get to February and feel like you're you're
in the tournament, you're working on your ced No, you
got to battle for your bubble life. And it's been
the same with the Cincinnati Bengals. Instead of relying on

(28:51):
what everyone else has to do, take it into your
own hands. And that, to me is the biggest loss
of this season. They didn't do that five straight wins
to even get in the conversation. Now they're down to
the seventeenth overall draft pick and they're on the outside
looking into the playoffs again. But I will say, out
of you mentioned that the Ravens and Bills at the top,
out of those other four Texans, Chargers, Steelers, Broncos, who

(29:13):
presents the biggest or the most complications to one of
those higher seeds.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
I think at the Chargers defense that we saw for
much of the season, were to show up in a
game against Kansas City, they could be dangerous. Yeah, Harball's
a great coach, obviously, Herbert's very talented, and they did
some really good things defensively. Now a lot of it
fell apart for that stretch after they played the Bengals.
I was completely wrong about the Steelers. I said a

(29:40):
month ago, I thought they were the best team in
the AFC. They're offensively broken. I have no idea why
Arthur Smith continues to be such a hot coaching commodity.
The Texans just they win the division and win it
with relative ease, and they just I never saw the
team that I thought I was going to see. I

(30:01):
do not buy that that team can go to Arrowhead
and win. Honestly, like Denver at its best, I think
is more impressive than anything I think I would see
from those teams that could also go to Kansas City.
I just don't think Denver can go to Buffalo and win.

(30:21):
But if I'm rooting against Kansas City, I think the
game that I hope they have to play is against
the Chargers. As I think about it, how about.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
You, Yeah, I'm with you. I think the Chargers possess
because they don't turn the ball over, and I think
in the playoffs that is a huge, huge bonus if
you cannot turn the ball over, give those momentum changing plays.
That the other thing I was thinking of while you
were saying that, we were talking about the chiefs and
essentially no showing from your physical standpoint right now after
the sled riding Fiesco today, if you had to rank

(30:53):
you chief starters or Jermaine Burton, who feels the freshest today?

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Oh good question, Austin.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Austin, And I said this earlier. Jermaine Burton might have
been the real winner this weekend because everything else kind
of pushed what he did under the rug. They won Saturday.
Sunday was everything with the games that needed to happen,
and then the snowstorm hits, and then today we're talking
about the coaching and things that didn't happen. Meanwhile, Jermaine
Burton doesn't even make the trip in the biggest game
of the year. Is a third round draft pick who

(31:23):
has been in extreme disappointment all season.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah, we're gonna talk about him in greater detail later on.
I think with Jermaine Burton, a lot of is just
sort of I think we did two things. Number One
shook our heads and said, well, of course, it wasn't
like he was a major factor anyway. Nobody was kind
of going Jermaine Burton being the guy that was gonna
help the Bengals extend their season. I think there's also
a human part of it, where it's like, man, I
just hope that kid figures it out. I'm okay with

(31:47):
him figuring it out elsewhere, though, Yeah, I got I
this is this is an NFL team, This is a corporation,
this is a business. This isn't a charity here. I
hope Jermaine Burton, in whatever's next for him in life,
figures out how to be places on time and pay
his rent and do the things that he needs to do.
I have very very little interest in, well, let's give

(32:08):
him another opportunity I'm looking for the best players. I'm
looking for guys that can be counted on, like I
can count on T. Higgins might not be able to
count on him physically, right, There's something there about is
he going to play sixteen seventeen games next season?

Speaker 2 (32:21):
But T Higgins is going to show up for work.
T Higgins is going to be there on time.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
T Higgins is going to play hard on my guys
like that, And I have no real room for guys
that I can't count on.

Speaker 4 (32:30):
And how much of what Joe Burrow has done for T.
Higgins down the stretch is probably the understanding that he
knows he's not going to be relying on Jermaine Burton.
Yoshi probably didn't take the step he was hoping. I mean, Burrow,
he's not stupid either. He knows that they need to
continue that in the receiver room and probably looking at
the development and maybe a swing and miss with a
third round pick.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
You need T.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
Higgins more than ever if you're Joe Burrow.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
I think a lot of the conversation is based on
Number one. I've and Joe's referenced this. I've watched good
players get away and we haven't been able to replace them,
and we're on the verge of letting T Higgins get
away and it doesn't look like we can replace them.
This conversation is maybe entirely different if Jermaine Burton has

(33:18):
a fifty catch rookie season where we're seeing glimpses of
what he can do for Tampa. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like
there's I think that's I think that's largely what this
is based on. We have a poor track record of
replacing good players who leave, and if this is the
plan for replacing this player when he leaves, uh uh no, thanks,

(33:42):
so let's bring back T Higgins.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
I think this is an entirely different conversation, and I
think Joe's public approach would be entirely different if there
was some reason to feel good about the players that
would be playing t Spot. Yeah, is there any thing
from the game on Saturday Night worth talking about?

Speaker 4 (34:02):
It's not Trey Hendrickson, the tense moment late in the
game and the reminder that the offensive line better be better,
Because there was that moment Joe Burrow's down on the field,
he's in the blue tent and you're thinking, Okay, you
almost made it to an off season where he's gonna
have a healthy off season and then you see him
down on the turf, and it better be enough of

(34:23):
a reminder that what they have up front is currently
not good enough. And I think they already took that
step because they're not gonna be able if they're paying
t Higgins. They can't pay top guard money to come in.
You better find a coach that can develop the guards
a little bit better than what they've done.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, you're exactly right. The two things that I remember
from that game. Number one, Trey Hendrickson ceiling for my money,
which should be the Defensive Player of the Year award.
And number two, when Joe Burrow is walking to the
medical tent, I'm thinking, well, there goes the Joe is
gonna have a normal off season, slast training camp thing
that I was clinging to. And unfortunately he did come

(35:00):
back into the game. But yeah, that's those are the
two things I'll remember most'st it from Saturday night. That's
pretty much it eleve it away from four o'clock. We'll
spend a few minutes on the AFC North has the
regular season comes to an end, and we'll get some
defensive coordinator candidates as well. It's ten away from four
Tony and Mo Football Show on ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports.

Speaker 5 (35:20):
Station, Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.

Speaker 6 (35:24):
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with traffic.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
This report is sponsored Football Show on ESPN fifteen thirty Tony.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
This is our shortest segment.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
This is typically what we talk about the AFC North,
So we'll be very quick here.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Number one, are the Steelers broken?

Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yes, they peaked way too early. That offense is abysmal.
George Pickens, the one bright spot they had may have
put together the worst wide receiver performance from an in
game standpoint I've ever seen. They are worse than originally expected.
And now I just can't imagine TJ. Watt how he
mentally comes back after what Cody Ford did to him

(36:32):
on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
All Right, we have less than a minute.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
The Ravens are the filling the blank team in the AFC, best,
second best, third best, fourth best, or so forth.

Speaker 4 (36:43):
They're my second best team. I still think they're ahead
of the Bills. I think they're the danger because of
what they can do on the ground. So much is
put in Josh Allen's hands, and rightfully so. James Cook
has been really good, but Derrick Henry and that style
of play travels wherever you go. I think that the
Ravens have figured enough out defensively, and I think Lamar's

(37:03):
got a chip on his shoulder because he knows now
going to this time of the season, what the conversation
is about him, and I think that bodes well. I
think they're the second best team right now in the AFC.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
We would talk about the Browns, but they're thoroughly uninteresting,
so we'll.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Skip out to Sean Watson toot a setback.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, good for him.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
It's five minutes away from four o'clock Tony and Mo
Football Show. On ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station Teca Beth.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
This is the Tony and mo Football Show, Live from
Twin Peaks, brought to you in part by Encore Technochies
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It's all in good taste Honda East, Cincinnati's Ultimate Honda Experience,
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(37:49):
Holiday and at the Roberts Center, and by your Tri
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the official home of the Bengals, Cincinnatis, ESPN fifteen thirty.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Good afternoon, It's the Tony and Moe Football Show on
ESPN fifteen thirty three minutes after four o'clock. We are
not broadcasting from Twin Peaks today because I think being
there today would defy common sense. I'm not even I've
been meaning to do this all day long. My my
guess is Twin Peaks is not open today. If they
are open today and you're in the area, by all
means brave the elements. If you want to go to

(38:28):
Twin Peaks, we are not there today because of the
winter storm. Instead, Tony is broadcasting from the ESPN fifteen
thirty studios. I'm broadcasting from my house. Nonetheless, it's the
season finale, a day after the Bengals had their fate
sealed with Kansas City's lost to the Denver Broncos yesterday.

(38:49):
Bengals finished at nine and eight. There has been some
changes to the coaching staff already. If you don't know,
lou Anarumo out as defensive coordinator. Bengals also swapping out
linebacker coach and defensive line coach James Becher coach linebackers.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
He has done.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
Marion Hobby was the defensive line coach. He has been fired,
and same for offensive line coach, the always intense Frank Pollock.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
There's a lot to get to this hour.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
I'm gonna ask for, in reverse order, your five biggest Bengals.
What is from this past season? But we've talked about
lu Ana Rumo and the reasons why the Bengals have
moved on. Do you have somebody that you at least
hope they interview.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
I would think they would be remissed if they didn't
try to reach out to Robert Sala. I know it
didn't work as the head coach, but you can't argue
that the problems the Jets had were on the offensive
side of the ball, and since he's been relieved of
his head coaching duties, that defense for the Jets has
been terrible as well. So I think of a coach
that is probably wanting to get back into it, knows

(39:52):
he excels on the defensive side of the ball and
wants to get rid of the taste in his mouth
that was the head coaching experiment that he had. I
think he would be a great fit, and also understanding
that the struggles that he saw the offense go through
and how hard it was to be a defensive coordinator.
Rex Ryan said this earlier on ESPN. People are gonna

(40:12):
be lining up to want to be the DC because
the offense has Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase. You don't
need to shut teams out and you don't need to
be a top five defense in the league. You just
need to be an okay defense, and I think that's
gonna make it very attractive. But I would absolutely try
to get Robert Salah at least an interview.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Yeah, I don't think there's any question about it. Look,
the New York Jets as an organization are a mess,
and so certainly, and watching it from afar, he had
his shortcomings as a head coach. I'm sure he would
be the first to admit that. But the Aaron Rodgers
thing last year obviously didn't happen because he got hurt
in the first game. Aaron played fine yesterday, but age

(40:50):
took its toll on his performance this year. The owner
as a clown. They haven't been in the postseason forever,
in forever.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
First off, we're not hiring him to be a head
coach here. You're hiring him to be a defensive coordinator,
a job in which he has thrived before. So I
cannot imagine anybody is holding against him, looking at him
as a DC, holding against him what happened in New York.
And I think if you're him and you understand that,
you know there's a decent chance at least that he

(41:20):
is going to be given another chance to be a
head coach next season. What better way to repair your
brand then come to Cincinnati, get the defense to the
middle of the pack, go and compete for a championship,
and then maybe take another stab at being a head
coach somewhere. I do wonder, you know, a lot of
folks have looked at what happened today and said, well,

(41:41):
you know, Zach Taylor's now in the hot seat. I
wonder how many people will want to come work for
a head coach who has as small a margin for
error as he's ever had.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Right Like, on.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
One hand, you can said, well, they've got burrow, and
if I fix this defense and get it to the
middle of the pack, we're gonna be in the playoffs
and I'm gonna be giving a lot of credit for it.
Maybe I'll have a chance to be a head coach somewhere, or,
in Robert Silas case, a head coach again. At the
same time, you know you want stability, and so now
if Zach is on the hot seat and he's offering
me a job, hey, yeah, that's cool. But if you
don't get it done, I'm out of a job and

(42:15):
looking for another gig in a year. I don't think
that's I don't think that makes the job less attractive,
but I do think that would give at least pause
to a coach, a coaching candidate the Bengals would reach
out to.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
It was reported. I believe at the time that Dennis
Allen was in the running before an Rumo got the job.
He's obviously got connections with Trey Hendrickson didn't go well
as the Saints head coach. Al Golden has been here before.
He's doing a great job with Notre Dame. Someone called
in earlier today and asked about Mike Zimmer. I'm just
I think it needs a fresh face that comes in here.

(42:50):
I don't think you go back to Al Goldon. I
don't think you go back to Zimmer. I think it
needs to be a fresh face coming in for the defense.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
I mean, look, I know everybody whenever there's a coaching
change or a managerial change, we love to bring up
names we know best. Mike Zimmers had an awesome career,
meant a lot to this franchise. He's sixty eight years old.
I think the Bengals really need someone. They're going to
be really young on defense moving forward because they're going

(43:18):
to build the defense through the draft. That's not to
say they're not going to use free agency. I think
you need somebody who can develop younger players. I think
you need somebody who can relate to younger players. And again,
Mike Zimmers had a very good career. I don't know
what his status with the Cowboys is going to be
beyond this season. I don't know, but I'm I hate

(43:42):
to be an agist. I'm kind of looking fresh, kind
of looking young. That's not Mike Zimmer. Marcus Freeman is
not going to be the defensive coordinator of the Bengals.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Stop with that.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Luke Fickle's going to make seven and a half million
dollars next year, He's not going to be the defensive coordinator.
They're not going to call Marvin Lewis. To me, it's
it's Robert Sala or it's it's a young up and comer,
somebody whose name we are not that familiar with.

Speaker 4 (44:08):
Yeah, and that seems to be the role. I mean,
you think of when Sala was let go. The younger
players on that Jets team were very adamant that that
was a mistake, that that they're playing for Robert Salah.
I do it. You're you're going to need to rely
so much on development on that side of the ball
because of the restraints you're gonna have because of the
money you're gonna be given on the offensive side of
the ball. You you need someone that can go with it.

(44:31):
You need someone that can develop the younger players, not
someone that's gonna come in and say, hey, this is
the way we do it. We got to build around
and we got to spend all this money. You got
to get the up and coming. You got to get
someone that can communicate with the younger talent that this
defense has.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, we're on the same page there the off season
to do list. Let's just start with the first item.
They could do this today. Get the Jamar Chase thing
done right? Yeah, like this the thing that you know.
I was watching some folks go back and forth on
social media yesterday and they were talking about the slow

(45:04):
starts and well, training camp was a circus because of
Jamar Chase. I don't think really training camp was a circus,
but there was some degree of uncertainty as to whether
or not he would play the first game, and maybe
that lingered over Game one against the Patriots, although Jamar
obviously did play in that game. Eliminate it, get it
done now, like you were close, you didn't get it done.
I'm sure Jamar has recalibrated what he's asking for, but

(45:27):
you want to talk about something that would just maybe
set a tone for the offseason. Define urgency, and look,
we're so urgent, we're gonna cross off this item now
that we can still do. You can sign Jamar Chase. Literally,
do it today. There's no reason they couldn't have got
it done during the season. This whole thing about well
they don't negotiate contracts during the season, it's stupid, it's
a dumb policy. It's shortsighted. Go ahead and get that

(45:51):
done now. That shouldn't even be on the list because
you could get it done immediately.

Speaker 4 (45:56):
Yeah, and it would. It would again. They send a
message today with how quick they moved on from coaches
that did not hold their end of the bargain. If
you go and now make this with Jamar Chase and
get that done, then you are sending the message that
I think a lot of folks are looking for, of
the urgency, that this and what happened this year is
no longer and will not be acceptable going forward. You

(46:17):
do that by sending a message to Jamar Chase. And
you do that by sending a message to the rest
of this roster, and along with that the rest of
the NFL knowing that they've got a deal for the
next years with Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase on the
same roster.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
All right, I'm gonna put on the to do list
here to make a very simple pledge. So we were
talking before about Jermaine Burton, right, an immature guy, call.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
It what it is.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
Might not be a bad dude, might be a guy
who still has a bright NFL future in front of him.
But I don't think it's at a bounce to say,
an immature guy who wasn't ready for the adult job
of playing in the National Football League.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
It is a job.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
It's a fun job, it's a lucrative job, but it's
a job. I think they have to make a pledge.
We are not hiring kids anymore, no more Jackson Carmen's
and that was the knock on Jackson Carman out of Clemson, right, Like, yeah, physically,
he's got a lot of the tools. Not really sure
that from a maturity standpoint, he's what you're looking for.
They have to make a priority drafting adults. T Higgins

(47:17):
is an adult. Drafted him in the second round drafting adults.
It looks like Chris Jenkins is an adult, looks like
McKinley Jackson is an adult. It certainly looks like Amarius
Mimms is. I'm willing to take somebody who's maybe a
little bit less athletically gifted, if it's somebody that I
can count on, if it's somebody who day one walks
into the building and all right, we don't have to
get him an alarm clock. We don't have to teach

(47:39):
this guy what the responsibility of being a pro is
all about. Like that, I mean, you think about like
the Jackson Carmen with which is what it was a
second rounder. That guy, by now should be a mainstay
on the offensive line, should be a player that they
have extended, can't and didn't because he wasn't grown up enough.
Same thing applies to Jermaine Burton. He's obviously not as

(48:00):
far along in his career, but the lack of maturity
there has a reverberation. Now it's changed the T Higgins conversation,
and we all want t to be back. They need
to decide this offseason we are not overlooking or we
are not side stepping concerns about maturity. Some will say
character concerns. I make it about maturity. This is big
boy NFL football. I'm hiring grown ups. I'm not bringing

(48:23):
in people who aren't grown ups.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
Yeah, And at the end, they're held to this standard
because of the failures that they have gone through in
recent years, because of players like Jackson Carmen. I mean,
if you're drafting in the top three rounds of the
NFL Draft, you are drafting to get starters in that mode.
You're not drafting to hopefully get someone that can be

(48:46):
a small role player. You're drafting starters in the top
three rounds. And from Jackson Carmen to Jermaine Burton this year,
they have not done a good enough job in evaluating
the talent and the risk of the immaturity. And for
so long it was what, well, we're just gonna rely
on the locker room and the culture. And that was

(49:07):
Zach Taylor's big selling point, and every I saw it
so much this weekend, so every video. You know, when
when they made the pick of Jermaine Burton, it seemed
from the video like that was Zach Taylor's guy, Like
he was getting the guy that he wanted. You didn't
see that excitement from Duke Tobin and that might be
reading into it, but you can't sell me anymore on

(49:28):
the culture of the Bengals will fix it. The locker
room that Zach Taylor has established is going to fix
it because that has not been the case over the
last couple of years. So that, to me, it makes
it worse. You know when when you watch Jermaine Burton
and then you watch a guy yesterday like Jalen McMillan,
who was taking multiple picks after a wide receiver, and

(49:50):
you say, Okay, where is the where's the disconnect with
the development, Where's the disconnect with the scouting, with the scheme,
with the fits and everything that goes into place there,
And that is where the Bengals have failed. And you
can do that, and you can get away with it
when your quarterback is on that rookie deal because you
have a little bit more leeway when your quarterback's making
all that money. All of a sudden, every single draft

(50:12):
pick that you make, there's a microscope over it. And
when you draft in those top three rounds, that microscope
goes bigger and larger. And the Bengals have failed too
much and when you fail and you're going to be
paying one hundred million dollars to two, maybe one hundred
and twenty million dollars to three players, you can no
longer miss on draft picks or paying free agents big
money to come here.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
So you and I have been talking about the offseason
to do list now for a while because frankly, it
felt six weeks ago like the offseason was already underway.
And I think many of the items are, you know,
pretty simple, right. They've they've got to badly overhaul the
front of their defense. They need to find playmakers in
the secondary.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
They have to.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
They have to not rebuild the entire offensive line, but
they they obviously can't have the same five main starters
on the offensive line. They've got to come up with
a better way to start the season fast. What would
you add to that?

Speaker 4 (51:06):
I just I think that from a roster development standpoint,
and I've said this before, I think that the that
the coordination between Duke Tobin and the roster needs to
be better. It just doesn't feel like it's been there.
Like I said, this would be different if this was
the Bengals of years and years ago. And it's ah,
they just don't spend the money they've spent.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Go.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
Look, they've spent good money in free agency. They've spent
a lot of money to try to revamp things, to
try to fill holes and fill voids, but more often
than not they've missed. So if you're spending the money
but you're missing, then there has to be some kind
of disconnect between what you're expecting the player to be
and how they fit in versus what they actually do

(51:47):
on the field and how they fit into the scheme.
I think that's more important than the exact player itself.
Is that knowing that you're in unison because again that
I just the money's spent. The money has been spent
on the offensive line, the money has been spent or
tried to be spent on the defensive line and in
the secondary, and the evaluation just hasn't been there. Who

(52:08):
at the end of the day put the stamp on
it and said Cam Taylor brid is a number one
lockdown corner and we can go about our business moving
on from a cheeto and looking for number two. Let's
move daxx Hill from safety to corner because that's what
our evaluation says we can do. That's what I think
has put them so far behind the eight ball. So
before you evaluate position by position, who and what they need?

(52:31):
I need to make sure that that there's a direct
understanding of here's our scheme, Here's what we're trying to do,
here's the new defensive coordinator. Is that new decordinator? Are
they pressure heavy? Are they a coverage the type of guy?
What does that look like? And will the personnel match
That I think is the most important, more so than
just the positions themselves.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
All right, more looking ahead of the offseason coming up
in just a few minutes.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
But when we come back, we'll look back.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
I've asked Tony, I've got a list of my own
here the five biggest what ifs of the twenty twenty
four Bengals season. That is next eighteen after four o'clock
Tony and Mo Football Show on ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati
Sports Station, twenty one minutes after four o'clock ESPN fifteen thirty,
the season finale of the Tony and Mo Football Show.

(53:19):
We are not at Twin Peaks today, but we do
want to thank the folks at both Twin Peaks in
Westchester and in Florence for having this all season long.
All right, so lots of what ifs, all the one
score losses, all the games the Bengals loss that really
hinged on one or two plays. I've asked you to

(53:41):
compile a list. I've done this myself, but I'm frankly
more interested in yours. I asked you to give me
your top five Bengals what ifs. Now, these could be games,
they can be individual plays in games. They can maybe
even be front office decisions or decisions to let a
certain player go or bring in a certain player. I
wanted your five biggest what ifs. I will admit to

(54:03):
you that I focused my list specifically on the seventeen
game season, but I'm interested in what's on yours.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Starting with number five.

Speaker 4 (54:11):
I've got three individual plays, I've got a three game stretch,
and I've got a front office decision in mind. I'll
start number five for me, and I think it could
end up being number one because of how this reverberates
through the rest of the organization and the decisions that
have to be made before the first ball was even snapped.
Getting the Jamar Chase deal done to me is one

(54:33):
of the biggest what ifs. Not only what it does
to the offense in week one, but as the season
rolls along and you start to wonder, man, they didn't
get it done. He's on a triple crown pace. He's
going to request a heck of a lot more than
just justin Jefferson money. He's going to rewrite the record
books of the money. So by not getting that deal done,

(54:55):
I thought the offense struggled week one, They throughout the
season are now a little bit cash tied because so
much money's gonna have to go to Jamar Chase. And
now here comes Joe Burrow saying, well, you better not
let t Higgins walk out that door as well. Do
you know what would make paying tea a little bit easier?
If you had about eight to ten million dollars extra
per year that you're now gonna have to pay to

(55:16):
Jamar Chase because he just rewrote record books. He had
the fifth triple crown season in NFL history. That will
continue to loom over this season and going forward for
a long time for the Cincinnati Bengals.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
They screwed it up. Now, I don't know what Jamar
is gonna ask for.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
I don't know if he's gonna ask for maybe less
because of the desire to see t stay here this season.
But they screwed it up. I mean they Jamar made
it very easy for him sign me now, and if not,
you're at the mercy of me if I go out
there and have an excellent season. Then he went out
there and had the best wide receiver season in the
history of the franchise and the best in the NFL

(55:52):
this year.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
They screwed it up.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
And so for me, like there should be the lesson
moving forward is maybe not be so rigid, like I
keep coming back to this. So training camp ends, they
don't get a deal done, and all you heard was, well,
they're not gonna do it during the season.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Why, Like I asked you this question.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
You and I were sitting at the Holy Grail with
ken Brew on the Sunday before the season started, wondering,
is Tea really gonna play today? Is he going through
warm ups like we were doing that whole song and dance,
And I'm like, all right, they're gonna play today. They
have to be at work tomorrow, They're off on Tuesday.
Why don't you just call Jamar and his agent and say, hey,
on Tuesday, let's wrap this up.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
And go from there.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
So to me, moving forward, yes, they should sign Jamar
Chase today, and you know they're gonna have to pay
probably a lot more than they would have had they
gotten the deal done last year. But more than anything,
let's change how we do things and change our rather rigid,
frankly short sighted policy when it comes to our willingness
to negotiate with players during the season.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
If you're already close.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
What is the harm in getting it done on the
off day after.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
The first game.

Speaker 4 (57:05):
Yep. It's baffling to me, absolutely baffling that we were
in this moment. Number four for me, I went to
the stretch the November seventh game against the Ravens, the
game against the Chargers, and the game against the Pittsburgh Steelers,
and obviously the what if now has Had you just
won one of those games, you're in the playoffs and

(57:25):
you're being talked about nationally is the most dangerous team
in the playoffs. Instead, the offense scored ninety nine points
over that three game span and they lost all three
thirty five thirty four to the Ravens, thirty four to
twenty seven to the Chargers, and forty four thirty eight
to the Pittsburgh Steelers win one of those three where
the offense combined in a three game stretch to score

(57:46):
ninety nine points, and this team is in the playoffs
and very dangerous today.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, I have games within that three game window, but
you're right. They scored ninety nine points in three games,
got zero win. It is the stretch that defined the season.

Speaker 4 (58:04):
The season was defined there my number three, very simple
fourth and sixteen against the Kansas City Chiefs. You know
it's on many different occasions. Dejon Anthony's in the game,
you could question that. You can question the penalty in itself.
I question on a fourth and long like that, and
we see it across the NFL. Why you're not pressuring,

(58:26):
why you're not getting to Mahomes, why you are allowing
him to do what Tony Romo drew up right before
the play. It was the exact look that Kansas City
wanted to get. You win that game. And again, now
all of a sudden, you started the season one and one.
You feel like you're back above water instead. Oh and
two quickly becomes oh and three, and the rest is

(58:47):
pretty much history. But the fourth and sixteen is going
to take a long time to get over, especially because
that's at Arrowhead against a team that just wrapped up
a season where they lost two games on the whole season.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yeah, there was a sense of, you know what, you
had a chance to get Kansas City before they get good, right.
I mean we talked like before the season started when
they were playing Baltimore week one, who do you root for?

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Right?

Speaker 3 (59:08):
And it's like, well, you know, if Kansas City beats Baltimore,
you get your crack at them week two, and you know,
you put yourself in in a position to win the
tiebreaker over the Chiefs, and you just you wonder, you
wonder what just from an emotional standpoint, winning there the
second game of the season, bouncing back from the loss
the previous week, what it would have done, and they

(59:28):
were a play away from doing it and a play
away from doing it and a win away from making
the postseason.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
That is definitely on my list.

Speaker 4 (59:35):
Number two for me. The first go around with the Ravens,
you're one in four, you're trying to still salvage the season,
you're trying to jump start the season in many different ways,
and in the second half you have a twenty four
to fourteen lead, you have a thirty one to twenty
one lead, you have a thirty eight to twenty eight lead.
You lose all of those leads, and in overtime, the

(59:56):
Baltimore Ravens get the ball first, and Lamar Jackson get
you the biggest gift you can ever receive. He fumbles
a shotgun snap at the thirty nine yard line of
the Cincinnati Bengals, and the Bengals after that proceed to
run Chase Brown on first down. On second and ten,

(01:00:17):
they ran Chase Brown again, and on third and seven
from the Baltimore raven thirty five yard line, they took
the ball out of Joe Burrow's hands again, instead relying
on Evan McPherson and the snap and the hold and
the procedure to be perfect. Evan McPherson misses the fifty
three yarder, the Baltimore Ravens go down the field. They

(01:00:40):
kicked the game winner. But my biggest what if? What
if you don't take the ball out of Joe Burrow's
hands on third and seven at the thirty five and
they pick up a first down and they go on
to win the game, and you completely change the tractory
trajectory of your season.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
There were a handful of times this year, and that's
one of them where we talked about Zach Taylor and
situation football. The Denver game, the Chargers game where they
take Chase off the field. He had played what eighty
two of any three plays, the one play with the
game hanging in the balance, they don't call a time
out yep, And you know you broke down the play
on video and talked about it extensively with me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Situational football and Zach Taylor.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Zach Taylor has a lot of attributes as a head coach,
situational football is to me at the top of the
list where he's got shortcomings and I'm not sure he's
ever gonna get over them. He's been an NFL head
coach for six years. We've been talking about Zach Taylor
in situational football since his second season. Now talking him
through year six, I'm led to believe they're gonna have
to figure out a way to overcome that major head

(01:01:37):
coaching shortcoming.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
Yeah, And that, to me was my number one and
it's something that you and I have highlighted a ton
everything about the Bengals, Hendrickson's great year, Burrows great year,
Chase Great year. T Higgins finishes with ten touchdown catches.
Great year. Chase Brown finished with thirteen hundred and fifty
all purpose yards in the first three games of the
regular season. You would have thought he was a role player,

(01:02:02):
special team superstar for this team. My biggest what if?
What if you play the first three games on your
schedule knowing what we know now about Chase Brown the
New England Patriots. He carried the ball three times, he
received three passing targets, he caught them all that mo
That wasn't as bad as Week two when he had

(01:02:24):
no catches and four carries for thirty one yards against
the Kansas City Chiefs seven point eight yards per carry.
And yet through two weeks he had seven carries combined
on the season. And I'll carry it forward one more
week against the Washington Commanders, a game where you could
have probably used a little bit more ball control because
the defense wasn't going to stop anyone. Seven carries sixty

(01:02:45):
two yards, eight point nine yards per carry and he
only carried it seven times. Fourteen total carries in three
games is absolute blasphemy for this offense. I cannot believe
with a full off season and a training camp, understanding
where Chase Brown is from a pass protection standpoint, what
he was at the end of the year. My biggest

(01:03:07):
what if? What if you just run Chase Brown out
there like your lead back the first three weeks of
the season, because I guarantee they don't start zero three
if that's the case.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Yeah, and remember those first two games they didn't have
t Higgins no, right, so you could have said to
Chase Brown, like, we're gonna work you into the passing game,
which he proved to be effective. It remains it remains
puzzling to me based on what we saw as the
season unfolded this year. But you and I talked about
this at the end of the season last year because

(01:03:40):
there was that stretch right when Burrow got hurt and
Browning had to play. You saw flashes of what Chase.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Brown can do.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Yeah, and then they got away from him at the
end of the year. But they also barely used him
at the beginning of the season. So I think Chase
Brown has established himself as a cornerstone at Key COG.
I cannot wait to see what your number three heasn'
store for Chase Brown.

Speaker 4 (01:04:01):
Do you think they're on to three. If Chase Brown's
getting fifteen to eighteen touch carries a.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Game, I'm gonna guess they win one of those first two.
Now that the third game, offensively they were fine. They
scored thirty three points. I mean, they lost that game
because they couldn't stop Jadon Daniels. But the first two,
if you give me the Chase Brown usage that we
saw at the end of the year, in one of
those first two games, they win. I feel emphatically about that,

(01:04:26):
especially the New England game.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
Yeah, it's just I still can't figure it out. I
don't know what they saw differently in Zack Moss that
we didn't see that the first couple of weeks, and
they wanted to keep it fifty to fifty at felt
time sixty forty in favor of Zack Moss. And then
to watch and look back and Chase Brown becomes one
of the best pass protecting backs this year. It's just

(01:04:50):
I don't have an excuse for it, you know, I
because the argument and I have been one team more
out of Zach Taylor since he's been the guy, and
a lot of the stats are why the record in
one score games thirteen to twenty three in the north
one and eleven on the starts, and you could pitch
to me that the offense stunk against New England, and

(01:05:13):
they did, and they couldn't tackle a soul against New England.
And you know, Zach Taylor didn't choose to put Dejon
Anthony in, and he didn't choose, you know, to not
blitz on fourth and sixteen. But what he did choose
to do was not give Chase Brown touches. And from
an evaluation standpoint, as a head coach, you're in charge
of the draft, you're in charge of development, developing players.

(01:05:35):
You're in charge of making decisions based on your roster
of who gives you the best chance to win football games.
And you can't tell me, looking back now, that Zach
Moss was ever going to give you a better chance
to win football games out carrying Chase Brown sometimes two
or three to one.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
From a carey standpoint, so quickly my list here, I
just limited it to individual games.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
I put a number five.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
The three possessions they had late in the game against
the Chargers with a chance to take the lead. Two
of those possessions ended with miss kicks. I fully believe
if they score touchdowns on any one of those drives.
Worst case they go to overtime, they probably win the
football game number four of the Kansas City game you
outlined the fourth and sixteen. You know, Dejon Anthony ended

(01:06:23):
up being able to make some contributions as the season
went on, but unfortunately when you hear his name, that's
the first play you think of. And when I think
of a season that started to go sideways for lou Anarumo,
I think of that decision on fourth and sixteen to
not pressure Patrick Mahomes. You talk about the Baltimore game here,
and the most maddening part of that game was you're right,
taking the ball out of Joe Burrow's hands in overtime

(01:06:44):
and then them missing the kick and the bad hold
by Ryan Rico. That game is won if Marlon Humphrey
doesn't make a great play on that pick. When I
think of that game and how it turned, they had
two different ten point leads in the fourth quarter, they're
trying to salt the game away. Burrow was playing really
really well. Humphrey makes a great play, they end up

(01:07:05):
tying the game. I just I remember being at that
game that day and when he made that play, it
was the first time all afternoon. I thought they lose
the two point conversion against the Ravens. You and also
were talking about this before. Joe doesn't look at Jamar.
There's two different penalties on that play, when the Bengals
went on the field to go for two, or when
they stayed on the field, when the offense stayed in

(01:07:27):
the field to go for two.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
I was at that game.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
I remember saying emphatically to myself and anybody who would listen,
they're gonna win this game, and they don't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
They go for two.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
It was the right decision, but you can't help but
wonder what if they kick, Do they win the game
in overtime? What if the right penalty flag is thrown?
What if Joe looks at Jamar? Like There's a lot
of different what ifs there. And if they get the
two points and hold on to win, man, who knows
where the season goes from there the biggest what if?

Speaker 6 (01:07:54):
For me?

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Though I keep coming back to this, it remains inexcusable
regardless of how they got there. It remains inexcusable that
they lost to the New England Patriots, a team that
won four games. They had a rookie head coach who
would get fired at the end of the season. They
were starting a backup quarterback. Burrow did not look comfortable,
but they had no way to gain plan around that,
or they couldn't game plan around that. They didn't use

(01:08:16):
Chase Brown, the defense couldn't bring Ramandre Stevens into the ground.
They missed fourteen to sixteen tackles, depending on which counting
measurement you want to use. They were huge favorites at home.
All the other losses came to playoff teams. All the
other losses came the teams that either had good quarterbacks,
or quality head coaches or good rosters. The Patriots had
none of those things, and the Bengals lost at home

(01:08:38):
to them. And as I was watching the Kansas City
Chiefs lay down yesterday, that's the one that I kept
coming back to. The NFL handed the Bengals a Week
one gift and the Bengals gave it back.

Speaker 4 (01:08:49):
Yeah, you brought up the point to me if I
had another option on that to play against the Chargers,
to keep Jamar Chase off the field. Looking back on
that is absolutely maddening, knowing how dominant that he is.
But those in game coaching adjustments in game calls to me,
you know, it's not a one or two year thing.

(01:09:09):
This is now six years that Zach Taylor's had an opportunity,
and in six years he's won one of his first
two games. He's one and eleven in the first two
games of the regular season. Where is the development from
the coach? Where is the learning? Where is the Okay,
we're gonna get this figured out on how to start
the season better so that we're not constantly digging out

(01:09:29):
of a hole. One of the things MO that we
constantly tie to the Chiefs and others. They just find
a way to win. Man, it can be ugly, but
guess what, you know, by the end of it, they're
going to figure out a way to win, and they'll
get it and they'll move on and by the end
of the year they'll be playing their best. We never
speak in that sense with the Bengals, outside of maybe
the Denver game at the end, where it felt like,

(01:09:51):
you know what, they won a game that they probably
shouldn't have won because of how that ended. That they
don't get that anywhere else, and that to me is
so frustrating to watch over and over and over again,
especially with the slow starts, and as you alluded to
a slow start against the New England Patriots at that
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
I remember when the Bengals lost a game in twenty
twenty one toward the end of the season to the
San Francisco forty nine ers, and you and I were
at Twin Peaks and we were talking about Zach Taylor
and situational football taking the ball out of Joe Burrow's hands.
They lost that game in overtime, if my memory serves
me correct, the Super Bowl plays out the way it does,

(01:10:31):
and the decision to run the ball on thirty one
with samaj p run and running right at Aaron Donald.
And when the season ended and you and I talked
about this, we were excited, or at least I was
excited about. Okay, the Bengals have gotten to the Super
Bowl and they've got their quarterback. And you know, Zach
Taylor has established himself as the guy, and he got

(01:10:53):
the team to the Super Bowl and did a great job,
you know, figuring out how to win games despite the
offensive line not being very good. And the fun thing
is he is still growing into the role of head coach.
And I remember talking at length about like. The next
step is he's got to be better at situational football.
He has fixed the culture, he has helped bring along
Joe Burrow. His fingerprints are on the roster. All that

(01:11:14):
is great. What's next is the micro stuff, situational football,
situational football, game management, game decisions, understanding the moment. Here
we are three years later, it, for my money, remains
his biggest efficiency. That is maddening to me. He hasn't
gotten better in that regard. Austin asked me a during
quick hits, what grade would I give Zach Taylor? And

(01:11:36):
I think I rather generously gave him a C or
a C plus. And I do think we saw look
that the team didn't quit. You want to give the
head coach credit for that awesome? The offense was terrific
this year. You want to give the main play caller
credit for that awesome. I'm going to change my grade
to a D. The situational football sunk this team at
times this year, or came close to sinking this time,

(01:11:57):
sinking this team at times this year. It's year six,
and here we are talking about some of the exact
same things we were talking about earlier in his career.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
That is maddeness.

Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
And this is now the hierarchy, right, Things like that happen.
Someone's got to take the bullet, and in this case
it's lou Ana Rumo and it's Frank Pollock. Those bullets
are now that's exhausted. Now it falls squarely on Zach Taylor.
And as we said, that's why there should be urgency
this offseason. That's why there should be a different feel.
You should go into next year feeling that if they

(01:12:29):
don't make the playoffs, Zach Taylor should not be the
head coach going forward for the Bengals. Way too much
talent on this roster.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
I think it's It's rarely for me that simple, but
I think it is. If we're doing this a year
from now and the Bengals are on the outside looking
in and then barring like you know, Burrow missing fifteen
games or something like that, if he plays a full seventeen.

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
They almost made the playoffs without Joe Burrow and then
they got a fourth place schedule because of it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
You're right, no, we are.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
If we're talking about the Bengals missing the postseason for
a third consecutive year, Zach Taylor can't be the coach
moving forward, can't be. I mean with the personnel and
the quarterback they have cannot happen. And so you know,
again it flings back to the Luannrumo conversation. There's been
a bit of a coaching shakeup, fine deserved, understandable as
a head coach. When you do that, you now shift

(01:13:22):
the spotlight onto you, and it is going to be
squarely on Zach Taylor. Paul Danner Junior tweeted it today,
Zach Taylor's seat is going to be hot in twenty
twenty five when August rolls around and everybody's doing their
list of coaches on the hot seat. I think, legitimately
for the first time in his tenure here, Zach Taylor's
name will be on those lists, and understandably so. We
are way late eighteen away from five o'clock Tony and

(01:13:45):
Mo Football Show on ESPN fifteen thirty. Cincinnati Sports Nation,
Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty Sports Headlines are a service of
Kelsey Chevrolet Home of Lifetime power train protection and guaranteed
credit approval from the family to Yours for Life, Kelsey
chef dot Com. Bengals Fire Defensive coordinator Luannarumo, linebackers coach

(01:14:06):
James Bencher, defensive line coach Marion Hobby, and offensive line
coach Frank Pollock. Jags fire head coach Doug Peterson. The
Reds have acquired a pitcher by the name of Owen
White from the Rangers, who pitched in three games last
year spent most of his season at.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Triple A, where he had an ERA of five sixty four.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
In exchange, the red send to the Rangers cash considerations. Also,
the Reds have announced that Simon Matthews has joined the
coaching staff as an assistant pitching coach. Excuse me, He's
spent each of the last two years as the Reds
assistant coordinator of rehabilitation and pitching initiatives. The hell's that mean?
In twenty twenty two he was the rehab pitching coordinator.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
I'm not even reading that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
That's a bunch of word Salid college basketball tonight, Ohio
State's at Minnesota. The Sean Miller Show has been canceled.
U SE falls out of both major polls. Kentucky is
sixth and seventh, respectively. By the way, the Mark Pope
Show is going to be on Wednesday night, because the
Wildcats are traveling play Georgia tomorrow. That game live on
ESPN fifteen thirty. What what does the director of pitching

(01:15:13):
Initiatives do?

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
Anything else? I have for sports headlines? I don't believe
I do.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
We do have a pop question thanks to United Heartland
Insurance on X at Moegar, Thanks to United Heartland Insurance,
they'll take care of your insurance for you. Go to
uhi ns dot com. Do you trust Duke Tobin and
the Bengals front office to successfully navigate the coming off
season and put the twenty twenty five Bengals in a
position to win a championship?

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
Vote now, yes or no?

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
At Moegar on X Tony and Mo Football Show rolls
on twelve away from five ESPN fifteen thirty.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Cincinnati Sports Station.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
Needs It is ten away from five. This is the
Tony in Mo Football Show on ESPN fifteen thirty. We
are not at twin peaks today because the snow apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
One of the themes of the offseason. Tony.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
I think for all of us, something you and I
have touched on is, you know, avoiding the slow starts,
not starting oh to two, not starting oh to three.
You were there at nearly every training camp practice. You
watch the preseason unfold, and one of the more frustrating
things I'm sure for the coaching staff was, well, it
was a little bit more of a physical training camp.

(01:16:26):
We did play some starters during the preseason, and yet
the results were the same. So, you know, I think
for a lot of folks, it's going to be well
to start quickie, to start more quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Play. Burrow played the.

Speaker 3 (01:16:38):
Main guys in the games that don't count. Give those
guys more reps together. Beyond that, what can a team
like the Bengals do to avoid the slow starts that
have torpedoed their season the last three years?

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
You know, it can go back even before training camp.
I mean they've not made very efficient use out of
OTAs or things like that. They've they've wrapped those up
quicker in the land couple off seasons, and there has
been something that has loomed over them. The Burrow risked
the Jamar Chase deal, unfortunately. I think for this training
camp everyone was expecting T Higgins and that to be

(01:17:12):
the issue when it became Jamar Chase and T was
great about it. So you know, for me, I don't
know what else Zach can do other than giving guys
more time in the preseason games. Because they did. You're right,
they were more physical during training camp. They actually did

(01:17:32):
more ones versus ones. They had joint practices, two rounds
of joint practices against other teams, so you know, they
checked all the boxes. The issue was Jamar Chase wasn't
there for any of it, and Joe Burrow had not
his full range of abilities. We documented his struggles at
times throughout training camp as he was working through it.

(01:17:54):
T didn't do some of the team sessions. So on
one hand, you know, youve got to control the controllables,
and you know Jamar Chase, I thought that was something
the Bengals could have controlled, they could have got out
in front of. Instead it ends up hurting this team
going forward. But to me, it's the mentality of starting fast,
of being on your a game from a coaching standpoint

(01:18:15):
at the start, and having an understanding of who you
are and what the identity of your team is. I
don't feel like this team found their identity very easy
this season, and that's something we've talked about as well
under Zach Taylor in now six years. But you know,
sometimes it does. I did think that they handled camp
differently outside of the Chase fiasco and Burrows wrist, I

(01:18:37):
thought they put themselves in a better chance to start fast,
especially when you looked at the week one opponent outside
of maybe tackling and doing tackling drills, because I know
some other teams take advantage of those. That's about the
only thing. They didn't have a training camp.

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
This year, it has felt. It has felt really casual
in recent years, not so much this year, and you're
there almost every single day, but but there's been a
real casual feel to just the Bengals off season. I'm
gonna be looking closely at Joe Burrow once camp starts,

(01:19:12):
because that guy's public and I'm guessing private demeanor changed
in the second half of this season. That was an exasperated,
at times pissed off player. That was a guy who
was watching his own greatness get wasted. That was a
guy who was watching others failed to live up to
the standards he sets for himself as a professional. I'm

(01:19:35):
gonna be watching his demeanor to see if that carries
forth into training camp in the preseason. I'm gonna be
listening closely to hear if he talks about wanting to
play more in the preseason than he did last year,
or wanting to ratchet up the intensity of those practices,
that to me. You know, we've all kind of taken
our cue from Joe when it comes to the T
Higgins thing. We've all talked a lot about his public

(01:19:58):
comments and public demeanor, and you know what he's looked
like on the sideline, Like, he's looked like a different
dude here over the last couple of weeks. Yep, not
casual at all. Right, it's been all business, very very serious.
I'm going to be interested to see if that demeanor
is something we see more of come July and August.

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
Yeah, And it felt like early on he was still
trying to figure out how to be that guy. You know,
gon R, Tyler Boyd and Cheetoh and Joe Mixon, the leaders,
the vocal guys that were on this roster and now
he's got to step into this role. And he was
trying to step in that role while also figuring out
the limitations he had with the wrist and what was
going on with that. And we talked about the frustrations

(01:20:36):
at times throughout camp, but I think as the season
went on, he started to navigate and get more comfortable
in the leader that he wants to be. And I
think it's going to be fascinating to watch him through
training camp knowing the season that was just wasted, and
knowing in large part why it was wasted, because this
team started slower. I want to see how much ownership

(01:20:58):
he has in that going forward, how much say he
has in and yeah, okay, I know this is what
we normally do, but we need to do more of this.
We need to put our focuses here. I think Joe
Burrows is a key part to all of that, especially
since he's going to have an off season now where
he has one hundred percent healthy and able to do
everything he needs to do to get himself ready.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
All Right, we have an hour to go, Tony and
Mo Football Show.

Speaker 3 (01:21:20):
We are here till six o'clock on ESPN fifteen thirty,
Cincinnati Sports.

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Speaker 7 (01:22:01):
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Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
All right, it's five minutes after five o'clock on ESPN
fifteen thirty.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
Good afternoon. I'm Oegar with Tony Pike.

Speaker 3 (01:22:47):
Its the season finale of The Tony and Mo Football
Show on ESPN fifteen thirty. We are not broadcasting from
Twin Peaks today. We were supposed to be at the
Westchester location. I think chances are you know why we're
not at Twin Peaks or any other establishment. I will
mention to you though, this Twin Peaks in Westchester.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
Is open right now.

Speaker 4 (01:23:07):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
So if you're in the general Westchester area and you
want to get out and you can get there safely
by all means, go have a cold one at Hurt Peaks.
Pretend we're there, bring the listen on the at liston
on the iHeartRadio app, and you can pretend we're there.
But we are not there today. We wish we were,
but unfortunately the weather conditions in the greater Cincinnati area

(01:23:29):
has dictated that we're not hiking up to Twin Peaks
in Westchester. Nonetheless, the season finale today. You know what,
We've been talking a lot for the last two hours.
It's been an interesting day for the Bengals. They very
quickly moved on from lou An Aroma, the defensive coordinator.
They have fired Frank Pollack, the offensive line coach. They
have fired the linebackers coach, James Betcher. They have fired

(01:23:51):
the defensive line coach, Marion Hobby. Zach Taylor will be
the Bengals coach next season. Duke Tobin will be in
charge of the roster this coming offseason, so that doesn't change.
We have spent a lot of time on that. We
have spent a lot of time on what ifs and
why this season went wrong and putting Zach Taylor very
squarely under the microscope as we have done this. We

(01:24:14):
were just doing what ifs about twenty five minutes ago.
You know what, I keep thinking about Tone, I keep
thinking about not closing out the Super Bowl, Yeah, not
closing out the AFC Championship game the following year, like everything.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
Like I was thinking about this with lou Ani Romo.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
He is a significant part of the Bengals success in
twenty one and twenty two. Right without his defense, they
don't do what they did to Patrick Mahomes in the
AFC Championship Game and closing off that comeback. Like lou Ana,
Romo has had a very positive impact on this team
and I think should be remembered fondly here, even though

(01:24:51):
I think most of us agree that it was time
to go. But I think of his role in their successes,
and I think of how easier it is to take
what the Bengals didn't do this season if they won
when they had more of a chance to. And that's
not a place that anybody wanted to go in the
immediate aftermath of the Super Bowl, because it was hey,

(01:25:13):
they got there, and they'll be back. It wasn't it
great that they got there, and well, they'll be back
very soon. They'll be back multiple times. And here we
are now three years later, they haven't gotten back. They
have wasted I hate to say waste that doesn't related
to twenty twenty two, but Joe Burrow was an MVP
finalist in twenty twenty two they did not win. He

(01:25:35):
is a very good chance to be an MVP finalist.
I don't think he'll win the award, but he certainly
had an MVP caliber season in twenty twenty four.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
And yet they're on the outside looking in.

Speaker 3 (01:25:45):
And the big fear for me, especially after the AFC
Championship Game lost to Kansas City, was boy, they may
have blown two really good chances that might not come
around for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
And yet two years later, I'm kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
Right, Yeah, you know, I went back and I looked
in that Super Bowl. They take the twenty to thirteen lead,
and their next four possessions they netted twenty four yards total. Yeah,
two three and outs, a five play drive that went
minus two yards, and a seven play drive for twenty
four yards before a punt. And then that's when the

(01:26:19):
Rams took their fifteen play touchdown drive to make it
twenty three to twenty. But we often go back to
that and we talk about these laws. Twenty to thirteen.
You're leading the Super Bowl and you've got four straight
possessions in which you still had the lead, go down
and score a touchdown on any of those, and you
win the Super Bowl. You win it all, and the

(01:26:42):
conversation is completely different. But as we've seen so many
times throughout the tenure, the offense disappeared at the worst
possible times imaginable and at that it was. It was different.
It was the sacks, or it was the running game
not being able to do what they need to do.
Regardless of what it was, when they needed it the most,

(01:27:04):
they couldn't come up with the drives offensively to get
the job done. Yeah, and it's it's again. It's a
sobering reminder those four drives in the twenty four yards
in which they produced on those four drives, what could
have been and so much of it was. That's Joe Burrow.
Look at the young nucleus on this team. They'll be back.

(01:27:27):
Well we ask, ask Marino, ask others that have played
this game for their whole career never made it back
to a super Bowl. And you look again, like look
this year, and there are teams all across the National
Football League. The Houston Texans had Super Bowl aspirations coming
into the season, so did the Ravens, so did the Bills,
so did the Kansas City Chiefs. Only one of those

(01:27:49):
teams will get there. Maybe could be the Chargers, maybe
the Broncos steal it. But there are so many things
that happen and have to happen for you to be
the last team still that you cannot limit yourself and
disappear at times the way the Bengals have. They played
with fires so much.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, nobody wanted to go down that road.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
You only get so many chances like you could do
this across a lot of different sports in this town.
But I go back to the twenty twelve reads, man
up to oh, like, dude, have no idea when you're.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Gonna be back here? Have no idea, and they haven't.

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
And I remember, I remember after they lost Game three,
doing a show before Game four saying like, they better
win this because you have no idea what's about to happen. None,
There's a very good chance. This is their best chance
for quite a while, and it's turned out to be.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
I don't think the Bengals are going to be as
irrelevant as the Reds turned out to be for basically
the rest of the decade.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
But that was my take.

Speaker 3 (01:28:53):
That was one of my takes in the aftermath of
the Super Bowl and then the AFC Championship game where
they got the ball with just over two minutes to go,
tie a game, kick a field goal, they win, and instead,
you know, we know what happens when you have shots,
When you have chances.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
You have to take advantage. Yeah, you have to. You
mentioned Dan Marino, man, I.

Speaker 3 (01:29:14):
Mean, I'm I'm old enough to remember when he lost
his Super Bowl to the Joe Montana in the forty
nine Ers Super Bowl nineteen and I mean everybody thought
he'll be back, and he was awesome. He had an
awesome career, Like arm talent is as great as any
quarterback I've ever watched, never got back played, and I

(01:29:35):
think two more AFC Championship games Aaron Rodgers might be retiring.

Speaker 2 (01:29:39):
Say which one about Aaron Rodgers?

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
When he won his first nobody thought that guy's never
going to go back to another Super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
You never got back to one. You just don't know, man.

Speaker 3 (01:29:49):
And so I've thought about that a lot today because
in some respects, like you know, with lou Ana Rumo,
it's the closing of a chapter and he was a
part of their success. But that chapter included some awesome tis,
but some real agonizing near misses.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
And the longer this goes, like.

Speaker 3 (01:30:05):
Can you imagine if a year from now, two years
from now, three years from now, we're still talking about
this team not really coming close to contending for a championship,
you know how much more of those near losses, those
near misses are gonna hurt. They hurt more now for
me at least than they did two years ago and
three years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:30:20):
Yeah, and again, I look as long as Mahomes and
Reeder there in Kansas City, they will always be contending.
The Denver Broncos are ahead of schedule right now with
bo Nicks. The Chargers seem to be well ahead of schedule.
They're gonna add more playmakers for Justin Herbert. The Texans
are gonna get healthier. They've been crushed by injuries this year.

(01:30:40):
The AFC North is not going anywhere anytime soon. And
the Buffalo Bills, I'll give them credit because I thought
they lost way too much and I'm like, okay, this
is the year the Buffalo Bills take a step back.
Josh Allen is showing why that he's the front runner
for the Most Valuable Player. And then you look look
at teams like San Francisco or I'm sorry, look at

(01:31:01):
teams like Seattle, look at teams like Washington. Who you think, Okay,
those teams are gonna be out and then they're contending
so quick. You're always gonna have that in the AFC.
But you also have these built in contenders that it's
not like, oh, it's just such a weak conference. They're
gonna get back because they have the right pieces. You
got to go earn it and you got to go
into the biggest games you play, and you got to say,

(01:31:24):
what do you have an advantage? You go through the list, Okay,
who's got the advantage at quarterback, who's got the advantage
at running back, wide receiver. Eventually that goes to who's
got the advantage at coaching? And win the Bengals play
in their biggest games most more likely than not, they're
going to win the quarterback battle. They're going to win

(01:31:44):
the wide receiver battle. Can they win the coaching battle
going forward? And can those adjustments be made for this
organization and this team to reach the goals they're trying
to get to.

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
With Joe Burrow, of the seven postseason teams in the AFC,
how many would be upgrading at head coach if they
swapped out their guy for Zach Taylor?

Speaker 4 (01:32:06):
Zero?

Speaker 3 (01:32:08):
Legitimate question, Yeah, I mean zero. Not Kansas City, not Baltimore.
Now say what you one about Mike Tomlin shortcomings, But
not Pittsburgh.

Speaker 4 (01:32:18):
They're still there. This is we looked at the schedule
for Pittsburgh and said this is the year they're going
to be a losing team and they're in the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (01:32:25):
Yeah, Like, I'm not a huge Sean McDermott guy, And
I think he's coaching in the postseason with a little
bit more pressure than you know, maybe outsiders might think.
But like, I think that's fair to do with Zach Taylor.
And look, he's going to be the coach this coming season.

Speaker 4 (01:32:40):
But of the fourteen playoff teams, is there any team.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
Well, not Philadelphia, I don't think Washington, Detroit, not Minnesota,
not Green Bay, not what they've done in Tampa, not Tampa,
not Kevin O'Connell, Not Kevin O'Connell. I mean, so of
the fourteams that are in it, he's he would not
be picked for any.

Speaker 4 (01:33:03):
Of those jobs.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
So that's that's the thing with him, right Like, And
I think you and I over the course of the
last six years have been very fair. When Zach Taylor
has deserve credit, we have given it to him. And again, like,
I think Zach Taylor has some some real bona fides.
I do believe the Bengals have a really good culture.
I certainly do think it's it's fair to say, what God,

(01:33:26):
his team didn't quit down the stat they have a
good culture.

Speaker 4 (01:33:28):
Is it as great as we thought it was?

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
Maybe not? But like, does he does.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
His presence on the sideline, does his in his position,
Does he give them an advantage over the teams they're
going to be judged against, over the teams they're going
to have to overcome head to head and otherwise, And
it's hard to say the answer is yes, like he is.
I think if we were to do the exercise, and
maybe we'll do it like rank rank NFL head coaches

(01:33:54):
one through thirty two, he's somewhere in the middle of
the pack.

Speaker 4 (01:33:57):
Yeah, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
So if he were to be let go today, do
you think teams would be pushing themselves out of each
other's way to hire Zach Taylor.

Speaker 4 (01:34:07):
No, I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:34:12):
I Now, look, he might have a great working relationship
with Joe Burrow, and I'm sure that counts for something.
And maybe Joe would throw a tempertansion if they fired
Zach Taylor, and I'm sure that counts for something.

Speaker 4 (01:34:22):
And again, like, I don't think so Joe anymore though.
I think Joe after this year, from what we've seen
and the reactions and the displeasure on his face, visible displeasure,
you know what's most important to him? Winning football games,
winning championships. Yeah, So what he wants to do, like

(01:34:44):
we are.

Speaker 3 (01:34:46):
Joe Burrow has ten twelve seasons in front of him,
right he is completely in his prime. But quarterbacks are
judged by how much do you win? That's that is
a reality of the position. The first thing you think
about when you think of Patrick Mahomes, Joe's current peer.
He's won three, he's been to four. He's got a

(01:35:06):
damn good chance to win four and get to five,
and he's probably not done winning. Like all those other
guys are chasing him right now. Allen might win one
right now, Lamar might win one, like right right now,
there's a lot of guys in this league. Goff might
win one. Jalen Hurts drafted in the same class, might
win one. Like if you're Joe Burrow, that's what you're

(01:35:27):
judged against. I remember Dan Marino's career. I remember John
Elway's career, and how much boy at the end he
had to win that first of the ball before he
came back and won a second, because otherwise his career
was going to be judged harshly against some of his
of his peers. That's how it works with quarterbacks. You
do not want to get to a place if you're
the Bengals with Joe Burrow where he's in now, like

(01:35:47):
year seven, eight nine, still wondering like, dude, what am
I going to get a chance? Especially if he is
having seasons the way he's having right now. So, yeah, man,
I think you're right about that. I think Joe and
Zach have a good work relationship, but I think the
conversation is going to change dramatically if we're doing this
same thing in a year, not just as it relates
to Bengals management, but also the team's most important employee.

Speaker 4 (01:36:10):
Yeah, it is. It's massive to get it right this offseason.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):
It's huge.

Speaker 3 (01:36:16):
I mean this is and Zach would be the first
to admit this. This I think more than in any
other point during his time as the Bengals head coach,
this is when the focus on him is going to
be added sharpest because next year it's not going to
be changed the defensive coordinator, change the offensive line coach.
It might be changed the guy in charge of the roster,

(01:36:37):
Duke Tobin, but it's really going to be about Zach Taylor.
And so this is a really really big year for
coming up for a lot of different reasons. At the
least of which is going to determine probably whether or
not he's the coach of the team for the rest
of the.

Speaker 4 (01:36:53):
Decade, correct as well as it should be.

Speaker 3 (01:36:56):
Sure, And I look at it now through that Lens,
you and I we have the same conversation midway through
the season if he were to be let go, how
many teams would push themselves, push each other got to
hire him? In how many head to head circumstances do
you feel like the Bengals have an advantage because of
their coach or even if you're not making it head

(01:37:17):
to head? I mean, just you know the AFC, Tony,
You're right, I mean the two MVP front runners are
in the AFC. You might hate to hear anybody say it.
The Pittsburgh Stealers have a terrific organization. They're good every year.
The Houston Texans, I still feel like the arrow is
pointed upward, even though they were kind of underwhelming this year.

(01:37:39):
The Kansas City Chiefs, there's some retooling that has to
happen there. Patrick Mahomes isn't yet thirty.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
Nope.

Speaker 3 (01:37:45):
The LA Chargers are just getting started. It feels like
the Denver Broncos are just getting started, and in most
of those set of circumstances, I like Damiko Ryans in Houston.
A big reason why you feel good about those franchises
is the head coach. How many of those franchises would
rather have Zach Taylor?

Speaker 2 (01:38:04):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:38:05):
And I think that minutes after five, that's the sobering
that's the sobering piece going forward.

Speaker 3 (01:38:11):
Yeah, And it's the question to ask, right, Like, the
idea here is to be the best in the world,
the best in the league, the standard center the idea.
I mean, you get mad at that the Kansas City Chiefs,
and you're, you know, get pissed off that too much
attention is paid to him, Like I want that sort
of run.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Can you go on that sort of run?

Speaker 3 (01:38:31):
Where they have been in four of the last five
Super Bowls, the last six AFC Championship games, and as
underwhelming as they were in time, this year they're fifteen
and two, really fifteen in one, Yeah, the number one
seed in the AFC. Can they go in a run
like that with this head coach? They should with this
kind of quarterback? Can they do that with this head coach?

(01:38:55):
I don't know how Right now you are saying emphatically
the answer is yes.

Speaker 4 (01:38:58):
Correct, And do you have time if you're the Bengals,
If that answer is not emphatically yes, do you have
time to keep waiting after six years, after seven years,
or at some point do you have to say we
got to get this now, we have to act with
more of a sense of urgency.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
With a quarterback who is clearly agitated, I think that's
the word. Right Over the second half of the season,
Joe Burrow wore the expression of a man agitated and
maybe with his own performance at times, but I think
agitated with the circumstances around him. Do not get to
a point where that agitation spills over into something else.

(01:39:34):
Do not let this guy, don't even let him think
about getting to a point where he questions whether or
not he's better off elsewhere, even if he has years
left on his contract.

Speaker 2 (01:39:43):
Don't do it.

Speaker 4 (01:39:45):
If you do it, you're I mean, you're opening up
the door to ruin arguably one of the greatest careers
that football has seen, because that's the trajectory that Joe
Burrow is on to be one of the best that
has ever played this game. That's what he's doing at quarterback.
And you have a chance to ruin that if you
continue down the pass that you're on right now. That

(01:40:06):
is how dire, that is how serious this is. I
mean mo I went down the list of quarterbacks that
have thrown more than forty three touchdown passes in a season.
Peyton Manning did it in twenty thirteen, they lost the
Super Bowl. Brady in seven. They were sixteen to oh
that year. Mahomes twenty eighteen through fifty, they were twelve
and four. Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Rogers, Marino,

(01:40:28):
all of those quarterbacks twelve and four, fourteen and two
thirteen and three thirteen and three fifteen and one. There
are the Bengals at nine and eight. So the numbers,
the touchdown numbers. Historically, there are not many quarterbacks in
the history of the game. Joe Burrow is in a
tie for tenth in the history of the National Football
League with forty three touchdown passes in a single season.

(01:40:51):
And what does he have to show for it, zero,
Absolutely nothing. Where at least those other quarterbacks on that
list they played into the postseason. That's the biggest that's
the biggest detriment of all is that the NFL and
Joe Burrow doesn't even get to put his talent on
display this coming weekend because they have failed a forty

(01:41:11):
three touchdown past season with a bad offensive line and
a bad defense forty three touchdown pass.

Speaker 3 (01:41:18):
I mean, can you imagine just put yourself in Joe
Burrow's shoes and you're better equipped to do this than I.
And this coming weekend, you have to watch Lamar Jackson yep.
And you have to watch Justin Herbert, and you have
to watch Josh Allen bow Knicks, and you have to
watch bow Nicks, and you have to watch Jalen Hurts.

(01:41:40):
You have to watch Jordan Love, Jayden Daniels. Yeah, like
you have to watch Baker Mayfield, and Baker Mayfield has
authored a heck of a success story in Tampa Bay.

Speaker 2 (01:41:51):
Like it has to be maddening, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:41:54):
I mean you have to watch Matthew Stafford, who after
the Rams won the Super Bowl, everybody thought, well, well,
because of the FM pits FM picks philosophy, it's gonna
be a while before they're back.

Speaker 4 (01:42:06):
Yeah. Like it's weird because it's to be so deeply
frustrating and it's a group, it's up and coming. It's rookies.
There's a couple of rookies mixed in. It's quarterbacks they
thought would take maybe a step back, quarterbacks that were
rode off for dead, right, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield were
rode off in a large part. Jared Golf was rode off.
And then you have the who's who? Right, the Mahomes
is still there, Lamar, Josh Allen, all of these different

(01:42:28):
types of quarterbacks that make up these fourteen and he's
out of it. I can't imagine seeing the anger and
the discuss and the frustration we saw throughout the year.
I can't imagine what this week is like for him.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
I mean, I'm sure Joe's going to pay attention to
those games, But Joe, how many of those guys are
you better? Then He's gonna say all of them, right,
But I mean, like, if you're Joe, you're watching guys
who are peers. I would consider Josh Allen a peer.
I'd consider Lamar Jackson a peer. Or that you feel
like you're dramatically better than and they're playing in your

(01:43:05):
or not. Yep, Like you cannot tell me that doesn't
if you're a human being that eats away at you.
You do not want to be in a place where
Joe Burrow continues to be eaten away at because he's
watching quarterbacks who he's as good as, who's going to
be measured against, and in some cases guys he's better than,
and you could argue he's better than everybody's still playing yep,

(01:43:27):
and he's on the outside looking and watching on his couch.

Speaker 2 (01:43:30):
Twenty six, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:43:31):
No, I mean where we were at the whole NFL,
the whole media. All they were talking about was if
the Bengals get in, they're the most dangerous team like
leading into the playoffs, not the other fourteen teams that
are in it. But man, if the Bengals get in,
why because of Joe Burrow. Nationally, that's how they viewed
Joe Burrow that if he got in, look out, no

(01:43:53):
one wants to play him. That it's so frustrating, and
he would be MVP if he were on a better
team court, he would be MVP. If he played better
in this one game, or if he throws for this
number of yards, he would be MVP, or he would
have a more serious candidacy dot dot dot if he

(01:44:13):
were on a better team. Yeah, and the if he
were on a better team is not just the roster,
it's the coach, it's the organization.

Speaker 2 (01:44:21):
Yep, all right, we gotta step aside. We'll hand out
some awards.

Speaker 3 (01:44:24):
Next Tonya Mo Football Show, ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports.

Speaker 5 (01:44:27):

Speaker 6 (01:44:33):
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Speaker 7 (01:45:05):
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Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
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Speaker 4 (01:46:28):
There are some unscribblings we'll forget.

Speaker 3 (01:46:30):
You can find anything you might have missed on the
iHeartRadio app on the podcast page of ESPN fifteen thirty.
Dot Com poll questions and service up United Heartland Insurance
go to UGI ANDAs dot com. Do you trust Duke
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(01:46:51):
percent of you say no. Vote now on X at Moegger,
We'll take you a look at the playoffs, both college and.

Speaker 2 (01:46:58):
Pro, and talk about some NFL season awards.

Speaker 3 (01:47:01):
Next Tony and moe Football Show, ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports.

Speaker 5 (01:47:05):
Station Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty.

Speaker 6 (01:47:14):
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Weight Loss Center offers comprehensive obesity care and advanced surgical
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Speaker 7 (01:47:46):
This report is sponsored by Mattress Firm.

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Speaker 4 (01:48:04):
Kelsey Chevrolet is the trist.

Speaker 3 (01:48:07):
Sports headlines are a sentence of Kelsey's Chevrolet Home of
lifetime power train protection and guaranteed credit approval from their
family to yours for life, Kelsey chev dot Com. Bengals
have moved on from defensive coordinator lou Anarumo. They have
a fired linebackers coach James Betcher. They have also let
go of defensive line coach Marion Hobby, and they have

(01:48:28):
fired head coach Frank Pollock as well. Around the NFL,
the only firing announced today Doug Peterson to no in surprise.
Out in Jacksonville, the Reds have acquired a pitcher by
the name of Owen White, who pitched mainly in Triple
A last year and had an e RA of five
point sixty four with a Triple A round rock in

(01:48:48):
the Texas organization. He did pitch in three Big league
games last season and in three innings he gave up
eight runs.

Speaker 4 (01:48:56):
Let's go when dow pitchers catchers report.

Speaker 3 (01:49:02):
About a month, that's great, just get to five hundred.
They gave the Rangers cash considerations one of these days
before spring training. Let's do the Let's see if we
can come up with an entire team where of players
that the.

Speaker 4 (01:49:19):
Red shows yeah or.

Speaker 3 (01:49:21):
Kicked the tires on or came close to signing or
trading for but that went to other teams, and see
if we can fill out like an entire team.

Speaker 4 (01:49:29):
Would probably be a World Series contender with the amount
of people they've thrown their hat in.

Speaker 3 (01:49:34):
With college basketball, the Sean Miller Show is not happening tonight,
So don't go see the head coach of the Musketeers
X you coming off tough loss on Friday night.

Speaker 2 (01:49:47):
They got Zach.

Speaker 3 (01:49:47):
Fremantle back but fell to Georgetown. UC falls out of
the top twenty five. Both major polls. I do have
a lotted here, Tony, A few minutes for you to
get anything you want to say about the.

Speaker 4 (01:49:57):
Bearcats off your tur How much time to have for that?

Speaker 3 (01:50:01):
Kentucky is the only local team still ranked sixth in
the AP Top twenty five to seventh in the coaches
Polo Ohio States at Minnesota tonight. I think that's all
I got for local sports headlines.

Speaker 4 (01:50:14):
I gotta do this too.

Speaker 3 (01:50:15):
The UC Bearcats football program has added two defensive assistants.
Adam Braithwaite is the new safeties coach. He was most
recently the defensive coordinator at Samford, and Eddie Hicks is
the new cornerbacks coach. He was a senior defensive analyst
at LSU.

Speaker 2 (01:50:34):
So there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:50:35):
Scott Saderfield running at his staff court Braswell. Courtney Braswell
has been promoted to a co defensive coordinator.

Speaker 2 (01:50:42):
All right, you want to do some awards? Take awards?

Speaker 4 (01:50:46):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (01:50:50):
Who would be your MVP?

Speaker 4 (01:50:52):
Josh Allen's the MVP. He's done more with less. In
my opinion, I think Lamar has been awesome, But Lamar
also has a little bit more built in around him.
People thought that this was the year, maybe the Bills
take a step back. They lost the digs, they lost
who the other receive? Gabriel Davis moved on as well?
Who's Josh Allen going to throw to? He has cut

(01:51:13):
down on the turnovers, which is hard to do when
you're relied on every single game like he is as
a runner and a passer. He's got his team right
back in contention. They look unstoppable on offense. I think
for all of those reasons, albeit it's been a great
year from Lamar and Joe as well, I think it's
Josh Allen.

Speaker 3 (01:51:31):
Yeah, my vote would be there's nothing wrong with the
Josh Allen vote. There's nothing wrong with the Joe Burrow vote.
I'd give it to Lamar. I think Josh Allen's gonna
win it. I do think there are some pokes who
just go, okay, well, Lamar is won two, it's Josh
Allen's turn. I think that's a short sided way of
looking at it. Forty one touchdowns, four picks, nearly forty
two hundred passing yards over nine hundred rushing yards.

Speaker 2 (01:51:54):
They win the division.

Speaker 3 (01:51:57):
He's three and zero head to head against Burrow and
against Allan, and that's not really Joe's fault. Allen did
not play well in that game against the Ravens. We're
splitting hairs here when it comes to this. I think
you can make a case for Saquon Barkley as well,
but I'm giving it to Lamar Jackson Offensive Player of
the Year.

Speaker 4 (01:52:16):
Eight different running backs have won over the two thousand
yard mark in the history of the NFL. Jamar Chase
just became the fifth wide receiver to win the Triple Crown.
Numbers from a rushing standpoint can be skewed because it's
a longer regular season. I don't see it skewed for
the Triple Crown because you're still competing against everyone. Receptions, touchdowns, yards,
no matter if you play five games or one hundred games.

(01:52:38):
He led the category in all of them. It is
harder to do the Triple Crown than it is to
rush for two thousand yards in a season. I feel
like Saquan's going to get this. I don't know how
it's not Jamar Chase. From an offensive standpoint, I.

Speaker 3 (01:52:52):
Think Saquan is going to get it, and I'm with you.
I would give it to Jamar.

Speaker 2 (01:52:55):
Chase, by the way.

Speaker 3 (01:52:56):
Sneaky good game on Saturday, right, all the different things
that went down in that game against the Steelers. The
Bengals offense wasn't awesome. Jamar had an unbelievable year, and
you're gonna have folks who go, well, yeah, he had
Joe Burrow throwing him the football. I watched every single
snap that Jamar played this season. He was the best
offensive player in the sport that wasn't a quarterback. Nothing

(01:53:18):
against Saquan He's a remarkable player. I can't get out
of my head that big drop he had against Atlanta.
Jamar Chase should win the award. I'll go ahead and
spoil it. Maybe you agree. I think Trey Hendrickson, for
my money, at least wrapped up Defensive Player of the Year.
Maybe he wins it. Patrick Sitteen probably is gonna win
it in Denver, which is fine. He's a terrific player.

(01:53:38):
I would give it to try.

Speaker 4 (01:53:39):
I don't know how seventeen and a half sacks doesn't
allow you to be the defensive Player of the Year.
If you are looking for a knock, do you think
he gets knocked at all? Because he doesn't move it all?
Because he doesn't play both sides. He doesn't line up inside,
because I think it's almost more impressive that he lines
up in the same spot and teams know where he's
going to line up, and he still had seventeen and
a half sacks, where as the others they could line

(01:54:01):
up anywhere, and you don't really know how to prepare
for that. You know how to prepare for Trey Hendrickson,
and he still had seventeen and a half sacks.

Speaker 3 (01:54:08):
So I'm not dinging him for that. I'm amplifying him
because he has no help around him. It nearly had
more sacks than the rest of his team combined. Teams
go into every game thinking one thing, we can't let
Trey Hendrickson Detroy what we're trying to do. I don't
think they say that about anybody else on the Bengals defense.
Let's spend two minutes here on Trey two different standpoints.
Number One, Well, the new defensive coordinator say to Trey,

(01:54:31):
We're gonna movee inside for a player too.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
Just to see what it looks like.

Speaker 4 (01:54:35):
Yeah, why would you like?

Speaker 2 (01:54:37):
Why hey, look man?

Speaker 4 (01:54:39):
Unless that was something he was like, Nah, that absolutely
not I'm drawing the line. I'm not moving.

Speaker 3 (01:54:44):
Maybe, but like, well, the new defensive coordinators say like,
I want to use you as a chess piece like
Miles Garrett's used as a chess piece in Cleveland. Also,
Trey Hendrickson asked for a trade at the end of
last season.

Speaker 2 (01:54:57):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:54:58):
He has since had an even better and he has
one year less left on his contract.

Speaker 4 (01:55:03):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:55:03):
Do we think that's not gonna come up again?

Speaker 6 (01:55:05):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:55:05):
It will. And how do you decide is it between
Trey and t Higgins? If it gets to that point,
it can't be correct, Like I mean, but it just
goes to show another thing that they have to deal
with this offseason.

Speaker 3 (01:55:20):
Right, I mean, that's an I don't That's an instance
where I do not blame the Bengals for not extending
Tray at two years left on his deal. He's on
the other side of thirty, but armed with a great
twenty twenty three he asked for a trade. Now he's
got one less year left, and he's armed with an
even better twenty twenty four.

Speaker 2 (01:55:38):
Comeback Player of the Year Joe Burrow.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
Has to be I know Sam Darnold has gained traction,
but for every reason, I just illustrated with Burrow. I
don't know how it's not him. Could you imagine not
only the years they had. If he's come back Player
of the Year and gets MVP votes and you've got
the Offensive Player of the Year and the defensive and
you still didn't make the playoffs. Unfathomable, incredible?

Speaker 2 (01:56:00):
Uh, Coach of the Year?

Speaker 4 (01:56:02):
Who you got this? This is a I think you
can make a case for a ton of guys this year.
But I mean, there are people out there that are
talking about trading for Kevin O'Connell, and I don't think
you get that anywhere else. In my opinion, he's done
more with less. I love Dan Campbell and I love
how his personality shines through every player on that team.

(01:56:22):
But what he's done with the roster he has and
no one expected it. Kevin O'Connell for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:56:29):
Yeah, I'm guessing he wins it. I want to say
Jim Harball because Austin's producing the show.

Speaker 4 (01:56:35):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:56:37):
I have come to love Dan Campbell, and I'm the
guy who sort of was like, look at this, dude,
this is a caricature of a coach.

Speaker 2 (01:56:44):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:56:45):
This guy is like in the movies, is like he
strikes me as deeply authentic his players seem to absolutely
love playing for him. I also think he's a really
good in game coach. Yep, Like if you if you
pay attention to the Lions like that dude gets it.
Like you talk about like coaches who need the director
of common sense. I rarely watch the Lions something. Dan

(01:57:06):
Campbell needs that guy. They play in an extraordinarily difficult division.
They played a first play schedule, and they've got a
billion guys hurt, including the dude who was probably gonna
be the defensive player of the year before he got hurting,
Aiden Hutchinson. I have really come around on Dan Campbell
because the guys, it seems authentic, it seems legit, and
I love how his team plays and I'm rooting for

(01:57:27):
them to win the whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:57:28):
I talked to Austin earlier and he even made the
point if you'd have looked at the Lions and their
fans comments when they moved to draft Jamier Gibbs, you'd
have thought that the sky was falling on the franchise.
And yet when we talk about there needs to be
a connection between the front office and the scheme and
the personnel, I think the Lions embody that perfectly. Every

(01:57:48):
player that they have fits into that scheme and they
embody exactly what Dan Campbell's about.

Speaker 3 (01:57:55):
Yeah, I you know, it's rare that someone wins coaching
a team that was good last year, and the Lions
were good last season, and O'Connell's probably gonna win it,
and that's fine. I don't know how he's not locked
in beyond twenty twenty four in Minnesota. Yeah, my vote
would go to Dan Campbell. All right, we'll do a
few minutes on the playoffs and if there's time for

(01:58:18):
us to get some stuff off our chest.

Speaker 4 (01:58:19):
To back you's a shame if we just ran out
of time.

Speaker 3 (01:58:21):
Tony and Mo Football Show, ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports
Station Clock Tony and Bo Football Show headed down the
stretch on ESPN fifteen thirty. Tony and Austin back for
since E three to sixty Tomorrow. I returned for our
show at three oh five. If you had to wager
an amount of money that matters to you on one
team in the NFC and one team in the AFC,

(01:58:44):
who would it be?

Speaker 4 (01:58:45):
NFC I would still have to go to Detroit Lions.
I think now with every team having to go through
Detroit and the physical brand that they play, the way
they can beat you so many ways Offensively, I don't
know who beats them in the NFC, and strictly because
they laid down yesterday, I can't pick the Kansas City Chiefs.
I still don't know if the weapons will be enough

(01:59:07):
for balt for the Bills, so I'll say the Baltimore Ravens.

Speaker 3 (01:59:14):
I like Baltimore. I said before that I'm not sure
any of the teams that would be seated lowest in
Round two can go to Kansas City and win. But
I do wonder about the three and a half weeks off,
and I've thought all season long at some point their
flaws are going to catch up to them. Now. They
played well down the stretch the last couple of regular
season games. They looked a little bit more like the
Chiefs as we've come to expect them. But I like Baltimore.

(01:59:38):
Like Baltimore what they can do offensively. I think they're
built to go to Kansas City and win.

Speaker 2 (01:59:44):
Not sure they get past Buffalo.

Speaker 3 (01:59:45):
I had to be a great game if we get it,
even though it wasn't a very good one the first
go round. But I would say Baltimore. I'm gonna go Philadelphia.
Number one. I don't want you and I to have
the same answer. Number two, I just worry about Detroit's
injuries catching up to him. The Eagles can control a game.
I still think they have the best roster, but I'm
rooting for Detroit. They're the NFC Bengals. I just gushed

(02:00:07):
over Dan Campbell that fan base deserves it. But my
guess is we get some sort of weird What is
an I ninety five Super Bowl Baltimore in Philadelphia?

Speaker 2 (02:00:18):
Yeah, and we'll see.

Speaker 3 (02:00:22):
Is there any reason to think it's not going to
be Ohio State versus Notre Dame for the National Championship.

Speaker 4 (02:00:26):
You can't find it. No idea how it's not. Those
are the two best teams in my opinion. I was
blown away by Ohio State, but I thought the physicalness
at which Notre Dame took care of Georgia without one
of their best defensive linemen was extremely impressive. From Marcus
Freeman's team.

Speaker 2 (02:00:42):
I would agree.

Speaker 3 (02:00:44):
And you know this is a theme that you and
I have hit on a bunch. Ryan Day for all
the criticism that came his way and for the most part,
deserved after the Michigan game. I think you have to
give him and his team a lot of credit for
rallying around him, for looking as focus as they have,
and for deciding to throw the football to maybe the
best freshman. Yeah, I've seen imagine that thoughtful process. All right,

(02:01:09):
it's a football show. We have like three minutes left.
Your impressions walking at a fifth third arena on Saturday
were what.

Speaker 4 (02:01:17):
You see as a fifty to fifty team to make
the NCAA tournament. Now that's what I think. Six games
against top one hundred teams. In those six games, they
have the one hundred and sixtieth offense in the nation
per adjusted offensive Efficiency. I keep telling myself it's a
good shooting team, and then I keep leaving games wondering
where Simas lukashis is. Uh, where the best players on

(02:01:37):
this team are disappearing to at the biggest moments. And
now I look at the big twelve mo Now you
got to go play Baylor, who's coming off. They just
got drummed by Iowa State. West Virginia looks completely different
than the team you thought they were going to be.
Kansas steps back in a big way. I worry at
oz and two that that it's a big hole to

(02:01:58):
start in. We talk about slow star. You better figure
it out this week because you can't start zhing four
in the Big twelve and expect to do anything.

Speaker 3 (02:02:05):
Oh oh and four and then having to go play
on the road against Colorado.

Speaker 2 (02:02:09):
Yep, I'm with you.

Speaker 3 (02:02:10):
I think right now fifty to fifty and that might
seem generous. They are in dire danger of losing their
first four or five games in the Big twelve. We
talk about this with the Bengals having to play catch up.
You got to dig out of an h to four
to OHO to five hole. They desperately need to go
to Baylor and win.

Speaker 6 (02:02:27):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (02:02:27):
They were down nineteen points at home. I don't know
the last time I remember that. They were down nineteen
points at home. And you and I talked last week
like you don't let Caleb Love go off. They did
a good job on.

Speaker 3 (02:02:37):
Kayler's fifteen to fifteen unreal and still lose the game.
The lack of execution at the end of the game
offensively frankly tony in the half court.

Speaker 4 (02:02:45):
This team seems broken alarming. I hate to say that
they don't have confidence.

Speaker 3 (02:02:49):
Sure if they're I'm not sure if they're a good
offensive team or a good shooting team or a bad
shooting team. They're not a good offensive team. And if
that doesn't change here soon, NCAA tournament forgets at that.
Just want to win some games in the big twelve
hundred percent all right. I want to thank Austin Elmore
for pinshitting and producing the show today. Austin, Uh, We're done,

(02:03:10):
Tony Moo Football show has been awesome already. Can't wait
for next year. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Have a
great evening. Thanks for listening. This is ESPN fifteen thirty
Cincinnati sports station.

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