January 7, 2025 • 47 mins
Paul Dehner Jr. of The Athletic and The Growler Podcast joined us to discuss the Bengals' search for a new defensive coordinator, Zac Taylor's seat getting hot, The Trey Hendrickson Question, and masochism rankings.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
PN fifteen thirty You.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Sure have what's up gonna have to doing on my legger.
This is ESPN fifteen thirty Thank you so much for listening.
Today we are I am at Twin Peaks in Westchester
on ESPN fifteen thirty nine. You might be going, wait
a minut Tonia Mo football show. No no, no, no, no,
no no. We did that yesterday TONI and Mo Football Show.
We did it with Tony and studio and me and
(00:23):
my house. But I wasn't gonna let the weather keep
me away from broadcasting from Twin Peaks one more time
until next football season. And so I put my foot
down and I went to management and I said, I
don't care. I don't care what you say. I don't
care what the local meteorologists say. I don't care what
anybody says. I'm going to Twin Peaks and we're gonna
(00:44):
bring some microphones and crap with us, and we're gonna
do a show. So we're here at the Twin Peaks
in Westchester, hanging out. We are on until five thirty today.
UK basketball bumping us out of the way a little
bit early, the Wildcats taking on Georgia, but the Roads
are in pretty good shape. I drove from the West
Side to here in Westchester. It took about the same
amount of time it normally does. We've got a great staff,
(01:07):
great menu, ice, cold beer, anything you could ever ask for.
We have a roaring fire that I shot the pre
show video from, so hang out. You sit by the
fire if you want. We are here until five thirty
typically on Tuesdays. I'm joined in person by our friend
Paul Daanner Junior from The Athletic and The Growler podcast,
a guy who has been very busy over the last
(01:28):
couple of days, and he's not with us here in
person because he's got a lot going on in his life,
both personally and professionally. But we've got him here on
studio on the phone and probably gonna ask him like
to stick around for multiple segments. So I'm giving him
a warning now because publicly on the air, he can't
(01:49):
say no to that.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Hi, Paul, I appreciate the preemptive move by you there
to try to get ahead of it. Stay ahead of
it early, be honest, be truthful, right off to jump.
I'm here p as many callbacks as you need if
you need me to get you to five point thirty.
Then I'll do it for you. That's that's my level
of care for you and your show. I hope that
(02:11):
your listeners don't want that. Hope, I hope they wouldn't
want that. That sounds awful even for myself.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think they'd rather hear from you than me, especially now,
because there is a lot to talk about, and so
let me uh, let let's start with what's happening right now.
Bengals are interviewing defensive coordinator candidates. What can you tell
me about the two men who have been reported to
have locked up interviews with the Bengals. One of them
(02:37):
is the Raiders defensive coordinator Patrick Graham, and the other
one is DeMarcus Covington, the defensive coordinator of the New
England Patriots. Should I want any of those guys to
replace Luena Romo?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, I mean sure, I don't think that that's bad.
I think you know, there's you're gonna see a wide
range of just and you know, names, but I just
think but of styles of experience. You know, you're gonna
see some people that have never been a defensive coordinator before.
You're gonna see some people that have been defensive counters before.
(03:12):
You'll see conversations at least with people that have been
head coaches before. I think the idea is take a
wide swath, get a good feel for everybody. But inevitably,
I think it comes back to a couple of things here.
I think what Zach Taylor is going to want out
of this is somebody who is hungry and still views
(03:34):
themselves as as motivated and a sending in their career.
I think there's value in that. You don't want somebody
who is got all kinds of experience but is just
looking for the next job. Right. That's a name can
sound great, but when they get there and they're just like, yeah,
I guess I'm gonna have to do this for a
while because I have to work, right. I don't think
(03:59):
you know that that can be a problem when you
when you hunt big fish sometimes, and so I think
that's the the parsing out that needs to happen is
is who is really motivated, who wants to come in
and feels like they are trying to prove themselves to
get to this next level that they want in their
career or to win as whatever is motivating them, but
(04:21):
to really feel that and so that's I don't think
it's necessarily about specific experience, whether the head coach DC
never been to DC. It's it's about it's about some
type of experience that you can feel really comfortable with
them leading the room and then match that with a
real motivated hunger and desire to go out there and
(04:44):
and get after it. And so finding that person isn't easy.
And this is These are the exact type of names
you would expect to show up people who are currently
DC's that are available, because this is a heck of
a job. Man, if you're a DC, you can't line
it up better than this. By the way, where if
you're like, Okay, yeah, all I gotta do is go
not be twenty eighth, and I might make the super Bowl,
(05:06):
I mean the bar is low, the stakes are massive,
the stage could be huge. Sure, it's a lot of pressure,
but you know, no one's asking you to go have
the number one defense and carry a team. It's a
great job with a chance for a big time you know,
ascension in your career. So I think, yeah, there's a
(05:28):
lot of people that will be interested in it, current dcs,
just about anybody. So they're they're trying to They're gonna
learn to check out as many people as they can.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, I mean, if if you're a co coaches love credit.
If this team goes eleven and six next year with
the seventeenth ranked defense in the NFL, the new DC
is gonna get a ton of credit, probably some head
coaching interviews. And also, like these dudes want their fingerprints
all over stuff, You're gonna have your fingerprints over the
(05:57):
makeup of the defense next year because I don't know
if a total overhaul is gonna happen, but there's gonna
be a lot of guys who get major run defensively
who probably aren't currently Cincinnati Bengals right now. Correct.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I think that's gonna be a part
of it. I think it's two part. Anytime you have
a new DC come in, you got to figure out,
you know, what, what does your system look like and
and who here could fit it. And that's part of
why there's a lot of unknown. When Zach Taylor was
asked about a bunch of this stuff yesterday, you know, yeah,
(06:31):
Chuck Burks and Jordan Kovac's Zach really likes them as
a corner and safety's coach but the new DC is
gonna have some say in whether they say or not
some of the players currently on the roster, would they stay,
would they go? You can't really say that until you
get the coach in there, understand their vision, you know,
Gino Stone's a great talking point in this, like, is
(06:51):
a new DC gonna come in and say, look, I
know how this this guy can work in this system?
Or no, I mean, look at all the mistackles, look
at tape, look at look at all that he's He's
not He's not the type of thing. He's not a
starting guy. There's different players can be divisive, and and
so I think that a lot of it's gonna be
pick the coach, you like, let him come in and
(07:13):
and and try to try to mold it. But inevitably, Mo,
it's gonna come back to what we have talked about
this entire time, and and and and really what spelled
Leuin or Remo's downfall. You gotta get these young players
to play well. There the I it's it's chicken in
the egg at this point. Whether they're bad players or
(07:33):
they were coached strong, whatever, I don't I don't really
know that I have the answer to to whether it
was the you know, these players stink or they haven't
played well. But they haven't played well. These are guys
that were picked high in the draft. There were there's
eight of them still left right now, and we'll see
how many remain next year. There's a bunch of high
picks that have not lived up to expectation. Yet. You
(07:54):
need to be a coach that can come in and
turn these guys into quality players, to starting level players.
Maybe a pro bowler or two could bubble up. That
needs to happen. These are not nobodies. These are not
guys that would have gone in the seventh round if
the Bengals hadn't taken them. At least I don't think,
you know, and I think they're players that can play.
(08:16):
You've got to find a way to make it work.
You've got to find a way to get the most
out of them. That has been a problem, and that
was a problem specifically in the front seven, and that's
why you've seen some of the cleaning house that's happened there.
And the inconsistency has been a problem on the back end,
and that's why Luanna Rumo also is not here. That
was supposed to be his specialty, so all of that
stuff that's gonna be such a huge part of it.
(08:37):
So yes it will look different, Yes it has to
look different, But the core of it is this group
plus a whole new sloop and you know they're gonna
throw a bunch of picks at it this year. That
group has to be able to develop, become a young, exciting, fast,
aggressive defense. That's what they want it to look like.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I hate that, This was my first reaction. I hate
to see people lose their jobs. Lou and Arumo had
a large, large role in this team's success in twenty
twenty one, in twenty twenty two, and I you know,
I said this to you a few weeks ago. The
fall here over the last two years has been sudden,
(09:21):
and it's been something to behold. Where here was a
guy that two years ago we were worrying, God, are
they gonna lose Lou Narumo. He was a hot coaching candidate,
at least we thought he was. He was in line
to maybe be the coach of the Cardinals. And now
two years later he's gone, And I think most of
us were okay with it. I guess my first thought was,
and I think a lot of people felt the same
(09:41):
way that you know, they played well down the stretch.
The defense is you know, for the most part, why
they won the game and kept their playoff hopes alive
on Saturday. I think there was a fear that this
franchise would again get caught up in putting too much
stock in late season, largely aimingless results, and that didn't happen,
(10:02):
specifically on the defensive side of the football. And so
as much as I hate to see people lose their
jobs and there were other assistants involved in here as well,
I took that, and maybe irrationally so, but I took
that as a bit of a positive. Should I have.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Uh yeah, I think it's I think it's changed. I
think that it's it's a step in the right direction
from not being satisfied, from not saying, oh I saw progress,
build on it. You know, we saw that for years
when we were talking specifically about coaching. And this isn't
to pick on on Marvin or any of the staff
that he had there, but you know, we saw that
a lot that was kind of the that was the
(10:40):
annual right of winter was I don't know, those last
few games really made me believe in the next thing.
You know, it's been sixteen years, and so that urgency
you want to see that and the word you know,
I wrote about this, The word unacceptable was thrown around
a lot to me. And you can't say unacceptable. You
(11:01):
take that can't be a word that's used and and
then nothing happens that there's it's unacceptable. Then you're not
going to accept that things are going to change. And
there was no way around this one. I mean, there
just isn't. You're the biggest games of the year, the
biggest moments, the biggest portions of the schedule. There were
(11:21):
no excuses. Yeah, okay, when things simplified and a bunch
of young players actually got more playing time at the end,
things went better. Well, it can't take that long, Like,
it can't take that long to figure that part out.
I I pointed this out on Twitter and it got
a bunch of reaction, but I you know, it was
we were I was joking about when you sat there
(11:41):
and watched the game on Sunday, which of the seven
one score losses you go back and do you think
about most. A lot of people pointed to New England
and and there's and there's it was a fun topic
that that people ran with, but like to me, it
was that section of three games in the middle of
the season at Baltimore, at LA, the Pittsburgh game. You
(12:07):
had two months to figure out the defensive issue. You
knew what you were working with, you knew the problems.
You had to find solutions. Burrow was rolling, he came
back in LA. Jamar was on his way to the
triple crown. Trey Hendrickson is playing out of his mind.
You have all of these things happening, and you blow
(12:29):
multiple double digit leads in Baltimore, giving up touchdowns on
four straight possessions in the second half. You go to
LA and lay an absolute egg in the first half
and give up twenty four points, and LA just goes
up and down the field on you. And then when
you have your really back against the wall in the season,
(12:50):
back at home a week a bye week to get
things figured out against Pittsburgh, Russell Wilson throws for four
hundred plus and you give up thirty seven offensive points
to the Pittsburgh Steelers. It ended that day. It ended
that day, that section right there, at that point, it's
over you. That can't be something that happens, and I
(13:12):
think that's that's what it's about, like you, because there's
excuses in a lot of other parts, and I'll buy those.
Early in the season and things are different and you're
figuring stuff out, and no, this is disappointing. I didn't
expect that by that point. It can't be a thing
that the message is so lost that it looks like
that historically bad and that's there's nothing you can do
(13:34):
to come back from that.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So you referenced your tweet from Sunday. I do have
my masochism rankings. You do, Yes, I hope, So, I hope.
So I'm ready for that. I'm gonna give them to
you here. I'm gonna give them to you here in
a little bit. I do want to talk about and
we got to get a break in, so I'm gonna
hold you through the break. I want to talk about
what you wrote about in the aftermath of yesterday morning's
(13:59):
news as relates to to Zach Taylor, and then a
few other offseason topics when we come back. Paul Danner Junior.
Follow him on x at Paul Danner Junior, Read his
work at the Athletic dot Com, and check out the podcast,
The Growler Podcast. As we say, where you get your podcasts.
It's eighteen minutes after three o'clock on Mowegger. Broadcasting today
(14:20):
from a Twin Peaks in Westchester on ESPN fifteen thirty
Cincinnati Sports.
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We're broadcasting from Twin Peaks in Westchester today here until
five thirty. UK basketball bumps us out of the way early.
Paul Danner Junior with us from the Athletic dot Com.
And so you wrote in the aftermath of yesterday morning's
news that now the arrow gets pointed very directly to
(15:25):
Zach Taylor and the suddenly warm hot seat that he
is sitting in, And you made the point that coaches
don't get a chance for multiple staff overhauls, and when
you're replacing four assistants, I think that qualifies as a
staff overhaul. When Zach was hired, the Bengals made a
big show of it being this was Duke Tobin's guy,
(15:46):
right he was at the podium with Mike Brown and
Zach Taylor. The point was made, this was Duke's guy.
So if a coach only gets one overhaul, how many
coaches does Duke Tobin get to hire?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I don't know the answer to that. I feel like,
you know, it's that that feels like a bit of
an untouchable situation, and that I don't because it's just different.
I don't you know, that would have to take a
truly disastrous run, and I don't think that they're near
(16:22):
that yet, so multiple I guess. I don't know that
I have a great answer for that.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And Zach Taylor has had success, so you know, I mean,
you could say that Duke Tobin hired a successful head coach,
and I always going to go hire another. But I
I think that's I think, if if we get to
a point where in a year, and hopefully from my standpoint,
we're not there in a year, the Bengals are on
the outside looking in, and Zach Taylor loses his job
(16:50):
because of it, I think you're gonna have a lot
of people who go, yeah, but what about Duke two?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And rightfully so, and I think that that is something
that you know, we're that's that's being said now and
and that's being called into question. You can only you know,
blame the coach so many times, you know, Okay, well,
it must have been the coordinator not getting the most
out of these draft picks on defense, because look, some
of the offensive guys are doing well. Amariusmims has done well,
(17:17):
Chase Brown has done well, Andreo Swash has done well.
You know, we've given all of these picks over to
the defensive side to haven't so it can't be the
personnel's fault. Okay, Well, if if then, if if things
fall apart with some of the other guys and a
new coordinator comes in and he can't get the most
vit or the trenches continue to struggle, you miss on
a few o line picks again, and yeah, I think
(17:38):
that that's that's all, that's all real. I just it's
so murky. It's it's you know, it's it's it's in
family business. And it's like, I don't, you know, I
don't know. I don't I don't know how how that
would go down or how long if that would ever
necessarily go down like that. I mean, at some point, yes,
I think they're far far from having those conversations. As
(18:01):
much as people don't like to to hear that and
think that someone can be that kind of untouchable, I
just think they're far far from that. There's too much
belief in trust in what Duke Tobin has done and
here in building rosters that they're gonna bail on him.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
If Zach goes into twenty twenty five with a hot seat,
does that come with a specific mandate make the playoffs
and you're good nine to eight on the outside looking in,
not good when the division advance in the postseason or
is that totally unknown as well?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I don't think it's unknown. I mean Joe Burrow said,
what the truth is, you know when you have him
as your quarterback, and this is under assumption that you know,
Joe plays and is healthy and all those things. That
you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure, you know,
And you get to burrow to the playoffs, and you
know what can happen, and you know, you know what
(19:01):
it can look like. And and honestly, you know what
a Zach Taylor team looks like in December and January.
They they've played well almost regardless of situation in December
and January under him, certainly since since twenty twenty one,
they're twenty two and eight December in January in the
regular season, in playoffs since twenty twenty one. So you're
you're talking about it, you know, you know what that
(19:22):
should and can look like. That He's got to get
him there. And that's why I think so much of
this is about It does in many ways come down
to these starts, these starts, to these seasons and this problem.
Can he fix that problem? And where is there a
can he find the balance to to find the things
that can push and motivate and get guys playing cleaner,
higher brands of football earlier in the season without giving
(19:47):
up some of the long term freshness that he kind
of has has tried to make a part of the
calling card of a franchise. That's up to him. That's
a that's a hard thing to figure out. That's why
he's paid what he's paid. But yeah, I think making
the playoffs is kind of a bare minimum, uh that.
I think if if you can get you get yourself
into the tournament, you expect to make noise there obviously,
(20:10):
But yeah, if you if you if you're sitting here
at the same time next year and you went nine
to eight and started slow again and looking and it's
basically a repeat of this year, and Burrow continues to
look good because you assume he's gonna look good every
time he's out there. That's that's gonna be uh uh.
That's that's a tough one. That's a tough one to
survive because these are these are failed seasons. They are
wasting the prime of Joe Burrow, and you assume Jamar
(20:34):
Chase is playing uh for the team at that point
and everything else. So yeah, I think that's the line.
I think that's the line.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
The slow starts. So for for a lot of folks,
it's gonna be well, they've they've got to be more physical.
During training camp, they had multiple joint practices with other
NFL teams this year, right like it it felt talking
to folks like yourself who were there every day, like
things did get ratcheted up a little bit during in
the camp this season. You saw more guys of consequence
(21:03):
play in the preseason. You know, sure, maybe more guys
should play more. Beyond that, though, are there things this
franchise could do to enjoy better septembers.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I think there needs to be a renewed sense of
importance in the spring and in the summer. I feel
that feels like something that has been just cast aside as.
I guess we have to do these to keep up appearances.
You know, we've called it country club summer around here
for a while. It's just like it feels like it's
(21:38):
non important and and there was an excuse for that
when they were coming off of long seasons in twenty
one and twenty two. And you know, you can give
they try to to trade these guys. You know, we'll
take it easy on you all through the summer, but
you'd be ready to go to the beginning of camp
and and well we'll help manage you and get you
to the end of the season. Feeling fresh on Sundays
(21:59):
like that. That's great. But I feel like when you
have problems with chemistry and young player development and all
of this, I mean you have to. I just feel
like you have to find ways to try to get
more of that. Is that gonna count in a bunch
of wins? I don't know, but I think I think
that's one that probably doesn't get talked about enough that
(22:20):
I feel like it's time to take that more seriously.
It's time to take that time and try to get
more out of it, whether that's more good versus good,
high intensity type of practices and doing whatever you can do.
And you know you're the rules do limit you, but
you know you certainly can be out there and be
more competitive with your best players that are there at
(22:43):
that time of year, and that's hard. A lot of
them don't show up and you go through that. But whatever,
I think you've got to take that more seriously, and
I think these guys have to. You have to get
real extended work for Burrow in the offense in the preseason.
I think he wants that. I think I think that
if it weren't for the injury stuff, the risks whatever,
that he would have been doing that this year. I
(23:06):
think the game against Pittsburgh where he had all the
turnovers the beginning of twenty two taught that lesson, and
he's wanted to do that since but not been healthy
enough to do so. Really, I think that's gonna be important,
you know, whether it's playing the first half of multiple
games to really get out, get that first game junk
out of their system. There's a risk in that no
(23:27):
one wants to go see anybody get hurt. But at
a certain point, like it's a game that these guys
are playing that they need to be more ready to
go Week one. Well, there's one way to go, and
that is to get the old Week one out of
your system before it counts.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
All right, I have two more players to ask you
about and my masochism rankings, but I do have to
get one more breaking. Are you okay with that?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Let's go, Let's go. I like it all right?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Good stuff. Paul Tayner Junior at the Athletic dot Com
on the Bengals will get to two players and masochism
rankings next, I'm a twin peaks in Westchester on ESPN
fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports.
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Dog col Beangals reportedly interviewing Raiders defensive coordina Patrick Graham
as they search for new DC to replace Low at
a Romo DeMarcus, Covington. The Patriots defensive coordinators set to
get an interview tomorrow. College basketball tonight, UC still looking
(25:08):
for their first Big twelve win on the road. Tonight
against Baylor, tip off in Waco at eight o'clock on
seven hundred WLW Xavier hosting Saint John's the Musketeers badly
in need of a big East win. That game tips
off at six thirty on fifty five KRC. Kentucky is
on the road at Georgia. Dayton takes on UMass and Amherst,
and Miami battles ball State hockey. Tonight, the Blue Jackets
(25:33):
skate at Pittsburgh Paul Danner Juniors here for one more segment.
I promise, by the way, on the defensive coordinator interviews,
I know these interviews last like four or five hours.
This would be very simple for me if Zach is
doing the interviewing.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Right, Yeah, yeah, he's part of it for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So the guy comes in and we exchange pleasantries, and
then we pop on film the first Pittsburgh game, third
and four, Justin Fields comes jogging out onto the field,
and I simply ask the guy, what do you think
the Steelers are gonna do here? And if if he says,
probably have Justin Field's run, then we advance to the
(26:13):
rest of the interview. If the coordinator's like, god, I
don't know, you know what, We're not gonna waste his
time or ours.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yes, no, that's the end the door. That's the end
the or I think you do that before you bring
the guy in for sure, Like that's it's it's a
it's an email. It's just an email with a screen
shot and it's just it says the situation and the lineup,
and then they get the email back Field is probably
gonna run and then you say, okay, we got you
a plane ticket.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Right perfect, That's that's the first one. So like I
would advance to the next stage of questions because I
know the answer to that. Now from that point forward,
we all know I'm not qualified, but I would at
least get to Like I would get to what's next,
I would qualify.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
That's you. You thought the bar was previously low, that's
about as low as bar as he could possibly get.
I mean, I think even Josh Newton is now getting
over top of that bar.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
So yes, yes, no question. So God knows. We have
weeks to talk about t Higgins and free agency and
what they could do with players who may leave and
players they want to bring in. But last offseason, two
players asked for trades. One of them was Trey Hendrickson,
who was coming off a really good twenty twenty three,
(27:30):
two years left on his deal as for a trade,
doesn't get it. Since then, he's had a season that
has put him understandably so in the conversation to be
the defensive Player of the Year, ends up running away
with the NFL sack title. Has one less year on
his deal. So what's he going to do this offseason?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
It's a great question I have. I know everybody's doing
the offseason checklist. I heard you and Tony going through
it yesterday and I have it too, And I've got
all the things in here, and I have one in
the middle of it, and it just says Hendrickson and
I decided to go with eight question marks. It's just
I don't know. I mean, is he gonna is he
(28:12):
gonna want more? Is he gonna demand? Is it gonna
be like last year where it's you know, you know
he's gonna ask for more. We're gonna balk, he's gonna
play his face off. Anyway, he's in the contract here,
they can sit there and say, look, you go have
a good year again and you'll get what you want.
You'll hit free agency to they they talk about extending him.
(28:34):
I mean that would be out of the ordinary for
them with a player of his age now past thirty
or at thirty, So you're you're talking about things that
they don't necessarily like to do. There. Do they get
very forward thinking? Do you go, you know, old school
school New England style here and trade the guy one
year before to get premium value. You'll never have more
(28:55):
trade value than you have right now for tradeinders if
you actually do make a trade and not have to
pay that use that money to pay t Higgins and
acquire a couple of draft picks in the process. There's
a couple. There's a many different ways to look at it.
I would love to be a fly on the wall
for those conversations of what is the approach with Trey Henderson.
(29:17):
You have this guy who is everybody in the league
wants someone like this, but this defense needs a lot
of things. They also need to be young. So so
how are they going to approach him, and especially how
is he going to approach this? Is he gonna come
in throwing bows again or is it gonna be Look,
he's just gonna be solely focused on this one more
(29:38):
year until he hits free agency. It's fascinating, It's it's
under the radar. One of the most interesting things about
this entire very interesting offseason. I don't have answers on that.
I think those are going to start playing themselves out
once they get this whole coordinator thing locked in.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Have they reached the point of no return with Jermaine Burn.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Sure feels like it. I mean, I don't This feels
like a big It was already hard to say how
they could ever trust the guy again after the first
time this stuff happened in mid season, Right, I don't know,
it's okay to say with on that one. Right, it's
(30:23):
okay to say, shoot, took a chance, it was it
was turned out to be a bad risk. Let's not
let it eat up a second ear don't let the
same team beat it twice, Right, And so you're that
feels like what this is? I think this is this.
I don't know how you trust any of this again.
And I think they as a as an organization, as
(30:44):
a staff kind of had their hands up a little
bit of we don't really even know what to do
with this anymore. And so yeah, it feels like to me,
the easiest thing, the most obvious thing that you should
do is is just be done with it. If if
he goes and takes off and somebody else figures it out,
than good for them, you know, but it doesn't have
to be your problem. It doesn't.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Are they getting unfairly dinged for their evaluation of him?
And look they they've whipped on Jermaine Burton. It happens,
But like, say what to one about how they've built
this team? Their recent drafts have included the likes of
Marius Mims, who looks like a guy who gets it,
Chris Jenkins who looks like a guy who gets it,
Chase Brown, who comes off as a guy who who
(31:30):
gets it. Like, like, there's a lot of guys that
we could we could debate how good some of these
players are gonna be, but like, there's there's a lot
of guys even in recent drafts where it feels like,
you know, impressive young men and then you can go
back even you know, deeper if you want to, you know,
players like t Higgins, et cetera. Are they getting unfairly
beaten up for misevaluating or ignoring some things about Jermaine Burton.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
No, they're not not unfair. They should be getting get
beat up that they went away from who they built
the thing that way. They built the thing off of
going for the player who you can count on, who
it will matter more to, who will be reliable, who
will get the most out of what they have, rather
than these you know, flyers on guys with traits and
(32:16):
possibility and maybe some bat and background issues. Right that
that's the stuff that they got away from, and that's
what they built that whole team on.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
But then they got this locker room full of good
guys and they saw this is a type of locker
room that can really take one of those types of
players and put their arm around them.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And man, you love your coaches and may with this
wide receiver room. If you can't go into a wide
receiver room with Jamar Chase working harder than everybody, Key
Higgins working just as hard as anybody. Tory Walsh is
one of the best wide receivers coaches in the game.
A guy like Yoshiavasho's getting the most out of his talent.
Like this stuff is a bunch of like if you
can't drop somebody into that room and they realize what
it's like to be a premature and move into this
(32:58):
first round ability, then man, and it's enticing to do that.
It's so enticing to do that and say it will happen.
It doesn't work like that, It just doesn't. And they
knew that when they started building this thing. And I
think you lose your way when you get greedy, when
you think you have so much good around. I think
that's a part of the lesson here. It's a part
of the lesson with Jackson Carmen. It's part of the
(33:20):
lesson with a lot of these busts. They know the
reasons these players bust. It's because you take these risks.
Sometimes it's worth a gamble because it's later in the
draft and you can Maybe that's the unfairness, fairness of
the ding on them there as it is, you're in
the eighties. But they needed a receiver, they needed answers
at receiver. They had all kinds of uncertainty coming up.
(33:40):
Guy like Jayalen McMillan's just sitting there. He's the obvious pick.
He would be. You know, he's solid as compedient. You
like him, you can take him. But no, you want
to roll the dice and take the risk because you
see this insane potential and you pay for it and
you eat it. Now, so that's not unfair to diging
them for that. They got away from kind of the
way they like to build things. And I think they
(34:00):
have to realize now that you just gotta stop taking
these chances, or you better be really, really sure that
you have a different version of the background on this
player than everybody else has.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'm looking here at the bottom of the screen, here
at twin Peaks on FS one and the reporting that
Antonio Pierce has been fired by the Raiders. So you know,
Marvin Lewis now is a free agent, and that was
a defensive coordinator.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I I see, I see no problems with this. I mean,
let's do it. Let's let's let's bring them in, let's
talk about it. I actually think you're wrong. I don't
think that's the fit. I think game management coach, no, no, no, no,
in your job. Yeah, I would really, just for your sake,
(34:54):
I would love if if Marvin got that job over you.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
There. There are very few things that would make me
sort of push my chips to the middle of the table.
That might be one of them. All right, So, as
I'm laying there late on Sunday afternoon, the Chiefs are playing.
They had like eight guys on the field on offense
and defense against the Denver Broncos in a blatant lay
(35:19):
down like I was wrong. I thought the players who
played would play hard. I mean, that was August football,
and fine, they're right to do. How IM not blaming them,
you know, like Andy Reid's job is to do what
is best for his team. He thought that was best
for his team. But from about four thirty five in
the afternoon on, my attention went from what the Broncos
(35:41):
were doing to people pretending to be Kansas City Chiefs.
And I started to think back to all the games
that could have like swung the season, and some many
of those games could have swung and did swing on
one play. And you asked the question, which of the
seven to one score defeats are you most replaying in
your head right now? And the question from the the
(36:01):
answer for me was all of them. And so I've
compiled from seven to one. Uh In, I guess it
would be ascending order. Which ones I which ones I
relitigated least to most? Are you ready?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Okay? So least to most? All right, let's go.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Number seven was Washington, which kind of the beginning of
the end for Lou you know, sort of foreshadowed how
miserable this defense was going to be. Uh, you know,
I I think I think of that night more just
in real time. Was in awe of how good jayde
Daniels was. But but also there was no pass rush.
He makes a great throw to essentially see all the game.
(36:42):
I thought of that game, but I didn't think much
of it. So that would be number seven.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I'm with you, I I have I have my
rankings in front of me as well. Washington also at
the bottom. Plus they were really banged up. It was early.
You're like, all right, Jadon Daniel was bare, and you
thought they're banged up. It's early time to recover from
that one.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Right, Uh. Number six the Pittsburgh loss, because by then
I had kind of given up. I didn't go into
that game thinking like, boy, if they win this one.
This like what I was watching from the defense was
horrific and and that might have you know, who knows,
sealed lose fate. But by then I knew they couldn't
(37:19):
stop anybody decent. Not that the Steelers offensively ended up
being all that good, but like I spent more of
that time laughing at what the Bengals were doing defensively
than I was getting mad or thinking, God, this was
a game that they could have used to pivot their
season in the right direction. So I put that at
number six.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
That's fair. Yeah, no, I mean it's more. It's more
just so Wilson, right, Yeah, that's more. I had it
one spot higher strictly for the Russell Wilson shock value.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Okay, I know, and you talked about this lumping the
three games where they scored ninety nine points and didn't
win any of them. I thought a lot about the
Chargers game, and specifically the three possessions they had. They
obviously got the ball back with a chance for a
hail Mary down by seven points, but the three possessions
(38:12):
prior to that one where they kind of mismanage it
with Jamar Chase on the sideline and two miss field
goals could have capped off a remarkable comeback that you
thought in real time, Boy, if they do this now,
this thing can take off.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's that's what. And then and in
the beginning of the you know, really the I guess
the full throat of the Evan McPherson, what the hell
is going on here right and now. And that's that
was sort of and when you get into you know,
the the mass kids of breakings, I think it's the
(38:47):
the incredulous. It's it's the really that that that is
the thing that's going to be going wrong to seal
the face. I think that's why that that moves up
a little bit as well.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Number four Kansas City, fourth and sixteen to John Anthony
not rushing Patrick Mahomes, you know, nearly getting a win
when the Chiefs offensively were not at their best. Now,
we didn't know they were gonna go fifteen to two
and play unevenly for much of the season, but it
felt like they were this close to stealing one that
(39:19):
would have washed away much of the bad tape in
the previous week. And we were kind of framing that game,
it's like, well, you know, these two teams could be
neck and neck in the AFC, and boy, the tiebreaker
would go to Cincinnati, and man, the Chiefs would have
to come here. Obviously, it didn't come close to playing
out that way, but I do wonder what that game
being so early and everything that goes into playing the
(39:40):
Kansas City Chiefs. I just I wonder what the intangible
effect would have been from getting that game week two,
And I thought about that a lot.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, that one was the one, I mean well New England,
but I mean that one was the one that had
the most ripple effect that you think it could have
changed the entire tone of this season, would have people
You win that and nobody even cares about New England anymore,
you know, like you you reset the bar. It was
just a bad first week. You went into Arrowhead and
took down the Chiefs like that changes the entire feel
(40:13):
and every step of the way where we were, you know,
we spent every week doing the bad mass it was,
it'd be a little less bad and there'd be a
little bit more optimism encouragement along the way. That's the one,
and then to me it's higher. I have all the
way up at two just because of the referee angst
factor from Bengalis fans versus the Chiefs. It's like it
(40:33):
that that dug up so many old wounds when it
was another referee situation in Kansas City, and the fact
that it's you know what, de Jon Anthony, what is
the seventh rounder doing out here in the spot too?
All of it the incredulous nature of all of that.
I had that all the way up at two. All right.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Number three. Ravens won the first Baltimore game two different
times in the fourth quarter they had a double a
two score lead. The Marlin Humphrey pick I replayed a
thousand times the sequence leading up to the bad Ryan
Rico hold. We talked about so much and I've thought
about so much over the last forty eight to seventy
(41:14):
two hours. Painful Ravens won is number three.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Number one for me. That's I mean that because that
also has the same effect. That also has the same
effect of the Kansas City game. You know, where the
math is not so bad, the optimism is different. You
get that win. I mean, they're in the division race
right up until the very end because you're bringing Baltimore
back down a pay Who knows what that change is
(41:40):
going forward after that. And just the fact of like
they got the mistake, like they they got the break.
Look they get the fumble on the snap and there
they are right there and lining up money Matt can't
even get properly. The uh, you know, unbelievable nature of that.
(42:03):
And then plus the ripple effects I had that as
I had that as number one, all right.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Number two for me was Baltimore to one play the
two point conversion, because when they lose to Baltimore, I go, okay,
win free out of the next four, which they did.
Eagles loss had its own set of issues, but they
still My thing was get to Baltimore and use that
as a pivot point when they're you're five hundred and
then we go. And they were a play away from
(42:29):
doing that. They were a play away from surviving everything
else that happened that night. When Joe Burrows stayed on
the field Ice I was at that game, I said
out loud, they're gonna get out of here with a win,
and now we take off and yep, there are there
are two missed penalties. One was egregious. He doesn't look
at Jamar. I mean, it just it felt like everything
(42:52):
frustrating about the season in a nutshell in one play
where they were just good enough to lose. I have
thought of about that almost every single day since November
the seventh, which I guess exactly to your two months ago.
I thought about that play in that game almost every
single day, and I certainly did on Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I mean the Chase Brown fumble could be looked at
as a turning point in the entire season. You know,
where they're up there, dominating, and all of a sudden,
the entire building changes, and then you get the half
effort on the wallace eighty four yard touchdown from from
everybody on the defensive side, and it's just, you know,
you have those types of leads late in games, and
(43:35):
you should you should win. It shouldn't even come down
to that. And then you have that play. They make
the play Jamar, I mean, Jamar goes for two What
the number is escaping me right now? For two hundred
and whatever? Joe is amazing. I mean, that was the
ultimate Tungsten Armodoyle game where you should never How is
(43:55):
it possible that these things happening in the Bengals lose
the game? Yeah, now there's it's hard to it's so
hard to make these decisions.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Mo.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
There's so many bad moments and incredulous moments.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
And then number one for me is New England. And
there was a lot in that game. But what I
think about when I think of that game more than
anything is all right, here we go. NFL is giving
them a gift bad team, rookie head coach, backup quarterback.
They're huge favorites. The NFL is giving them an easy win.
They're gonna blow these guys out, and all they're gonna
do is is just throw gas onto the fire of
(44:30):
how people are excited, can't wait, and they come out
drive number one, free and out, Drive number two, free
and out, drive number three, free and out. Energy from
stadium gone. Suddenly this game that they were going to
win is in jeopardy. They end up losing lots of
(44:51):
nuts and bolts of the game itself. It remains unforgivable
four months later, losing to that team that would go
four and thirteen and fire its coach that was playing
Jacoby Brissett. Uh No, Joe Burrow wasn't wasn't comfortable. They
barely use Chase Brown. They miss a billion tackles. You
to me, that was number. They had plenty of time
(45:12):
to recover. I get it. All those other one score games,
those other losses were to playoff teams. The Patriots didn't
come close. It remains agonizing three four months later.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, I mean I remember most from that game though,
thinking the is Joe Burrow broken right? Because he was?
It was he would drop back. He looked uncomfortable, he
wasn't doing anything he normally does, and he wasn't broken.
But it is remarkable how different he looked in that
game compared to pretty much the rest of the season.
I mean, it took that game for him to feel
(45:46):
to get more comfortable or force himself to be more
comfortable in game situation with that risk, which is part
of why I go back to some of the stuff
that we talked about with the slow starts, where that
was still a part of it when Burrow wasn't his
full self this year until he got through that first month.
I mean the numbers back that up and the way
he threw it, and obviously he played different. And that's
(46:06):
when will the season where truly fully healthy Joe Burrow
with no issue gets out there and is ready to
go From week one, maybe that's when you get the
fast start. But from this point forward, when we reference
slow starts and one and eleven in the first two
games under Zach Taylor of the season, it will always
(46:26):
start with I mean, you never know, you just assume
they're gonna lose. After what happened against New.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
England, all right, I am way late. I appreciate it.
You gave us the entire hour. That wasn't my intent,
but I thank you nonetheless.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
No, you're good, no problem, though, appreciate it. Have a
good one.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
YouTube the Great Paul Danner Junior Atthathletic dot com. My
apologies to a terran for totally butchering the clock where
twin peaks in Westchester on ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty. Traffic from the UC Health Traffic
so you see helps Weight Loss Center offers comprehensive obesity
care and advanced surgical expertise. Call five one three nine
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(47:14):
to Ridge Avenue has now been reopened after earlier two
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Sharon Road, the left lane blocked off from an accident
one vehicle there in the median on that eazalek with traffic.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
This report is sponsored by
PN fifteen thirty You.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Sure have what's up gonna have to doing on my legger.
This is ESPN fifteen thirty Thank you so much for listening.
Today we are I am at Twin Peaks in Westchester
on ESPN fifteen thirty nine. You might be going, wait
a minut Tonia Mo football show. No no, no, no, no,
no no. We did that yesterday TONI and Mo Football Show.
We did it with Tony and studio and me and
(00:23):
my house. But I wasn't gonna let the weather keep
me away from broadcasting from Twin Peaks one more time
until next football season. And so I put my foot
down and I went to management and I said, I
don't care. I don't care what you say. I don't
care what the local meteorologists say. I don't care what
anybody says. I'm going to Twin Peaks and we're gonna
(00:44):
bring some microphones and crap with us, and we're gonna
do a show. So we're here at the Twin Peaks
in Westchester, hanging out. We are on until five thirty today.
UK basketball bumping us out of the way a little
bit early, the Wildcats taking on Georgia, but the Roads
are in pretty good shape. I drove from the West
Side to here in Westchester. It took about the same
amount of time it normally does. We've got a great staff,
(01:07):
great menu, ice, cold beer, anything you could ever ask for.
We have a roaring fire that I shot the pre
show video from, so hang out. You sit by the
fire if you want. We are here until five thirty
typically on Tuesdays. I'm joined in person by our friend
Paul Daanner Junior from The Athletic and The Growler podcast,
a guy who has been very busy over the last
(01:28):
couple of days, and he's not with us here in
person because he's got a lot going on in his life,
both personally and professionally. But we've got him here on
studio on the phone and probably gonna ask him like
to stick around for multiple segments. So I'm giving him
a warning now because publicly on the air, he can't
(01:49):
say no to that.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Hi, Paul, I appreciate the preemptive move by you there
to try to get ahead of it. Stay ahead of
it early, be honest, be truthful, right off to jump.
I'm here p as many callbacks as you need if
you need me to get you to five point thirty.
Then I'll do it for you. That's that's my level
of care for you and your show. I hope that
(02:11):
your listeners don't want that. Hope, I hope they wouldn't
want that. That sounds awful even for myself.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think they'd rather hear from you than me, especially now,
because there is a lot to talk about, and so
let me uh, let let's start with what's happening right now.
Bengals are interviewing defensive coordinator candidates. What can you tell
me about the two men who have been reported to
have locked up interviews with the Bengals. One of them
(02:37):
is the Raiders defensive coordinator Patrick Graham, and the other
one is DeMarcus Covington, the defensive coordinator of the New
England Patriots. Should I want any of those guys to
replace Luena Romo?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, I mean sure, I don't think that that's bad.
I think you know, there's you're gonna see a wide
range of just and you know, names, but I just
think but of styles of experience. You know, you're gonna
see some people that have never been a defensive coordinator before.
You're gonna see some people that have been defensive counters before.
(03:12):
You'll see conversations at least with people that have been
head coaches before. I think the idea is take a
wide swath, get a good feel for everybody. But inevitably,
I think it comes back to a couple of things here.
I think what Zach Taylor is going to want out
of this is somebody who is hungry and still views
(03:34):
themselves as as motivated and a sending in their career.
I think there's value in that. You don't want somebody
who is got all kinds of experience but is just
looking for the next job. Right. That's a name can
sound great, but when they get there and they're just like, yeah,
I guess I'm gonna have to do this for a
while because I have to work, right. I don't think
(03:59):
you know that that can be a problem when you
when you hunt big fish sometimes, and so I think
that's the the parsing out that needs to happen is
is who is really motivated, who wants to come in
and feels like they are trying to prove themselves to
get to this next level that they want in their
career or to win as whatever is motivating them, but
(04:21):
to really feel that and so that's I don't think
it's necessarily about specific experience, whether the head coach DC
never been to DC. It's it's about it's about some
type of experience that you can feel really comfortable with
them leading the room and then match that with a
real motivated hunger and desire to go out there and
(04:44):
and get after it. And so finding that person isn't easy.
And this is These are the exact type of names
you would expect to show up people who are currently
DC's that are available, because this is a heck of
a job. Man, if you're a DC, you can't line
it up better than this. By the way, where if
you're like, Okay, yeah, all I gotta do is go
not be twenty eighth, and I might make the super Bowl,
(05:06):
I mean the bar is low, the stakes are massive,
the stage could be huge. Sure, it's a lot of pressure,
but you know, no one's asking you to go have
the number one defense and carry a team. It's a
great job with a chance for a big time you know,
ascension in your career. So I think, yeah, there's a
(05:28):
lot of people that will be interested in it, current dcs,
just about anybody. So they're they're trying to They're gonna
learn to check out as many people as they can.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, I mean, if if you're a co coaches love credit.
If this team goes eleven and six next year with
the seventeenth ranked defense in the NFL, the new DC
is gonna get a ton of credit, probably some head
coaching interviews. And also, like these dudes want their fingerprints
all over stuff, You're gonna have your fingerprints over the
(05:57):
makeup of the defense next year because I don't know
if a total overhaul is gonna happen, but there's gonna
be a lot of guys who get major run defensively
who probably aren't currently Cincinnati Bengals right now. Correct.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I think that's gonna be a part
of it. I think it's two part. Anytime you have
a new DC come in, you got to figure out,
you know, what, what does your system look like and
and who here could fit it. And that's part of
why there's a lot of unknown. When Zach Taylor was
asked about a bunch of this stuff yesterday, you know, yeah,
(06:31):
Chuck Burks and Jordan Kovac's Zach really likes them as
a corner and safety's coach but the new DC is
gonna have some say in whether they say or not
some of the players currently on the roster, would they stay,
would they go? You can't really say that until you
get the coach in there, understand their vision, you know,
Gino Stone's a great talking point in this, like, is
(06:51):
a new DC gonna come in and say, look, I
know how this this guy can work in this system?
Or no, I mean, look at all the mistackles, look
at tape, look at look at all that he's He's
not He's not the type of thing. He's not a
starting guy. There's different players can be divisive, and and
so I think that a lot of it's gonna be
pick the coach, you like, let him come in and
(07:13):
and and try to try to mold it. But inevitably, Mo,
it's gonna come back to what we have talked about
this entire time, and and and and really what spelled
Leuin or Remo's downfall. You gotta get these young players
to play well. There the I it's it's chicken in
the egg at this point. Whether they're bad players or
(07:33):
they were coached strong, whatever, I don't I don't really
know that I have the answer to to whether it
was the you know, these players stink or they haven't
played well. But they haven't played well. These are guys
that were picked high in the draft. There were there's
eight of them still left right now, and we'll see
how many remain next year. There's a bunch of high
picks that have not lived up to expectation. Yet. You
(07:54):
need to be a coach that can come in and
turn these guys into quality players, to starting level players.
Maybe a pro bowler or two could bubble up. That
needs to happen. These are not nobodies. These are not
guys that would have gone in the seventh round if
the Bengals hadn't taken them. At least I don't think,
you know, and I think they're players that can play.
(08:16):
You've got to find a way to make it work.
You've got to find a way to get the most
out of them. That has been a problem, and that
was a problem specifically in the front seven, and that's
why you've seen some of the cleaning house that's happened there.
And the inconsistency has been a problem on the back end,
and that's why Luanna Rumo also is not here. That
was supposed to be his specialty, so all of that
stuff that's gonna be such a huge part of it.
(08:37):
So yes it will look different, Yes it has to
look different, But the core of it is this group
plus a whole new sloop and you know they're gonna
throw a bunch of picks at it this year. That
group has to be able to develop, become a young, exciting, fast,
aggressive defense. That's what they want it to look like.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I hate that, This was my first reaction. I hate
to see people lose their jobs. Lou and Arumo had
a large, large role in this team's success in twenty
twenty one, in twenty twenty two, and I you know,
I said this to you a few weeks ago. The
fall here over the last two years has been sudden,
(09:21):
and it's been something to behold. Where here was a
guy that two years ago we were worrying, God, are
they gonna lose Lou Narumo. He was a hot coaching candidate,
at least we thought he was. He was in line
to maybe be the coach of the Cardinals. And now
two years later he's gone, And I think most of
us were okay with it. I guess my first thought was,
and I think a lot of people felt the same
(09:41):
way that you know, they played well down the stretch.
The defense is you know, for the most part, why
they won the game and kept their playoff hopes alive
on Saturday. I think there was a fear that this
franchise would again get caught up in putting too much
stock in late season, largely aimingless results, and that didn't happen,
(10:02):
specifically on the defensive side of the football. And so
as much as I hate to see people lose their
jobs and there were other assistants involved in here as well,
I took that, and maybe irrationally so, but I took
that as a bit of a positive. Should I have.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Uh yeah, I think it's I think it's changed. I
think that it's it's a step in the right direction
from not being satisfied, from not saying, oh I saw progress,
build on it. You know, we saw that for years
when we were talking specifically about coaching. And this isn't
to pick on on Marvin or any of the staff
that he had there, but you know, we saw that
a lot that was kind of the that was the
(10:40):
annual right of winter was I don't know, those last
few games really made me believe in the next thing.
You know, it's been sixteen years, and so that urgency
you want to see that and the word you know,
I wrote about this, The word unacceptable was thrown around
a lot to me. And you can't say unacceptable. You
(11:01):
take that can't be a word that's used and and
then nothing happens that there's it's unacceptable. Then you're not
going to accept that things are going to change. And
there was no way around this one. I mean, there
just isn't. You're the biggest games of the year, the
biggest moments, the biggest portions of the schedule. There were
(11:21):
no excuses. Yeah, okay, when things simplified and a bunch
of young players actually got more playing time at the end,
things went better. Well, it can't take that long, Like,
it can't take that long to figure that part out.
I I pointed this out on Twitter and it got
a bunch of reaction, but I you know, it was
we were I was joking about when you sat there
(11:41):
and watched the game on Sunday, which of the seven
one score losses you go back and do you think
about most. A lot of people pointed to New England
and and there's and there's it was a fun topic
that that people ran with, but like to me, it
was that section of three games in the middle of
the season at Baltimore, at LA, the Pittsburgh game. You
(12:07):
had two months to figure out the defensive issue. You
knew what you were working with, you knew the problems.
You had to find solutions. Burrow was rolling, he came
back in LA. Jamar was on his way to the
triple crown. Trey Hendrickson is playing out of his mind.
You have all of these things happening, and you blow
(12:29):
multiple double digit leads in Baltimore, giving up touchdowns on
four straight possessions in the second half. You go to
LA and lay an absolute egg in the first half
and give up twenty four points, and LA just goes
up and down the field on you. And then when
you have your really back against the wall in the season,
(12:50):
back at home a week a bye week to get
things figured out against Pittsburgh, Russell Wilson throws for four
hundred plus and you give up thirty seven offensive points
to the Pittsburgh Steelers. It ended that day. It ended
that day, that section right there, at that point, it's
over you. That can't be something that happens, and I
(13:12):
think that's that's what it's about, like you, because there's
excuses in a lot of other parts, and I'll buy those.
Early in the season and things are different and you're
figuring stuff out, and no, this is disappointing. I didn't
expect that by that point. It can't be a thing
that the message is so lost that it looks like
that historically bad and that's there's nothing you can do
(13:34):
to come back from that.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So you referenced your tweet from Sunday. I do have
my masochism rankings. You do, Yes, I hope, So, I hope.
So I'm ready for that. I'm gonna give them to
you here. I'm gonna give them to you here in
a little bit. I do want to talk about and
we got to get a break in, so I'm gonna
hold you through the break. I want to talk about
what you wrote about in the aftermath of yesterday morning's
(13:59):
news as relates to to Zach Taylor, and then a
few other offseason topics when we come back. Paul Danner Junior.
Follow him on x at Paul Danner Junior, Read his
work at the Athletic dot Com, and check out the podcast,
The Growler Podcast. As we say, where you get your podcasts.
It's eighteen minutes after three o'clock on Mowegger. Broadcasting today
(14:20):
from a Twin Peaks in Westchester on ESPN fifteen thirty
Cincinnati Sports.
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Speaker 2 (15:04):
We're broadcasting from Twin Peaks in Westchester today here until
five thirty. UK basketball bumps us out of the way early.
Paul Danner Junior with us from the Athletic dot Com.
And so you wrote in the aftermath of yesterday morning's
news that now the arrow gets pointed very directly to
(15:25):
Zach Taylor and the suddenly warm hot seat that he
is sitting in, And you made the point that coaches
don't get a chance for multiple staff overhauls, and when
you're replacing four assistants, I think that qualifies as a
staff overhaul. When Zach was hired, the Bengals made a
big show of it being this was Duke Tobin's guy,
(15:46):
right he was at the podium with Mike Brown and
Zach Taylor. The point was made, this was Duke's guy.
So if a coach only gets one overhaul, how many
coaches does Duke Tobin get to hire?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I don't know the answer to that. I feel like,
you know, it's that that feels like a bit of
an untouchable situation, and that I don't because it's just different.
I don't you know, that would have to take a
truly disastrous run, and I don't think that they're near
(16:22):
that yet, so multiple I guess. I don't know that
I have a great answer for that.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And Zach Taylor has had success, so you know, I mean,
you could say that Duke Tobin hired a successful head coach,
and I always going to go hire another. But I
I think that's I think, if if we get to
a point where in a year, and hopefully from my standpoint,
we're not there in a year, the Bengals are on
the outside looking in, and Zach Taylor loses his job
(16:50):
because of it, I think you're gonna have a lot
of people who go, yeah, but what about Duke two?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And rightfully so, and I think that that is something
that you know, we're that's that's being said now and
and that's being called into question. You can only you know,
blame the coach so many times, you know, Okay, well,
it must have been the coordinator not getting the most
out of these draft picks on defense, because look, some
of the offensive guys are doing well. Amariusmims has done well,
(17:17):
Chase Brown has done well, Andreo Swash has done well.
You know, we've given all of these picks over to
the defensive side to haven't so it can't be the
personnel's fault. Okay, Well, if if then, if if things
fall apart with some of the other guys and a
new coordinator comes in and he can't get the most
vit or the trenches continue to struggle, you miss on
a few o line picks again, and yeah, I think
(17:38):
that that's that's all, that's all real. I just it's
so murky. It's it's you know, it's it's it's in
family business. And it's like, I don't, you know, I
don't know. I don't I don't know how how that
would go down or how long if that would ever
necessarily go down like that. I mean, at some point, yes,
I think they're far far from having those conversations. As
(18:01):
much as people don't like to to hear that and
think that someone can be that kind of untouchable, I
just think they're far far from that. There's too much
belief in trust in what Duke Tobin has done and
here in building rosters that they're gonna bail on him.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
If Zach goes into twenty twenty five with a hot seat,
does that come with a specific mandate make the playoffs
and you're good nine to eight on the outside looking in,
not good when the division advance in the postseason or
is that totally unknown as well?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I don't think it's unknown. I mean Joe Burrow said,
what the truth is, you know when you have him
as your quarterback, and this is under assumption that you know,
Joe plays and is healthy and all those things. That
you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure, you know,
And you get to burrow to the playoffs, and you
know what can happen, and you know, you know what
(19:01):
it can look like. And and honestly, you know what
a Zach Taylor team looks like in December and January.
They they've played well almost regardless of situation in December
and January under him, certainly since since twenty twenty one,
they're twenty two and eight December in January in the
regular season, in playoffs since twenty twenty one. So you're
you're talking about it, you know, you know what that
(19:22):
should and can look like. That He's got to get
him there. And that's why I think so much of
this is about It does in many ways come down
to these starts, these starts, to these seasons and this problem.
Can he fix that problem? And where is there a
can he find the balance to to find the things
that can push and motivate and get guys playing cleaner,
higher brands of football earlier in the season without giving
(19:47):
up some of the long term freshness that he kind
of has has tried to make a part of the
calling card of a franchise. That's up to him. That's
a that's a hard thing to figure out. That's why
he's paid what he's paid. But yeah, I think making
the playoffs is kind of a bare minimum, uh that.
I think if if you can get you get yourself
into the tournament, you expect to make noise there obviously,
(20:10):
But yeah, if you if you if you're sitting here
at the same time next year and you went nine
to eight and started slow again and looking and it's
basically a repeat of this year, and Burrow continues to
look good because you assume he's gonna look good every
time he's out there. That's that's gonna be uh uh.
That's that's a tough one. That's a tough one to
survive because these are these are failed seasons. They are
wasting the prime of Joe Burrow, and you assume Jamar
(20:34):
Chase is playing uh for the team at that point
and everything else. So yeah, I think that's the line.
I think that's the line.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
The slow starts. So for for a lot of folks,
it's gonna be well, they've they've got to be more physical.
During training camp, they had multiple joint practices with other
NFL teams this year, right like it it felt talking
to folks like yourself who were there every day, like
things did get ratcheted up a little bit during in
the camp this season. You saw more guys of consequence
(21:03):
play in the preseason. You know, sure, maybe more guys
should play more. Beyond that, though, are there things this
franchise could do to enjoy better septembers.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I think there needs to be a renewed sense of
importance in the spring and in the summer. I feel
that feels like something that has been just cast aside as.
I guess we have to do these to keep up appearances.
You know, we've called it country club summer around here
for a while. It's just like it feels like it's
(21:38):
non important and and there was an excuse for that
when they were coming off of long seasons in twenty
one and twenty two. And you know, you can give
they try to to trade these guys. You know, we'll
take it easy on you all through the summer, but
you'd be ready to go to the beginning of camp
and and well we'll help manage you and get you
to the end of the season. Feeling fresh on Sundays
(21:59):
like that. That's great. But I feel like when you
have problems with chemistry and young player development and all
of this, I mean you have to. I just feel
like you have to find ways to try to get
more of that. Is that gonna count in a bunch
of wins? I don't know, but I think I think
that's one that probably doesn't get talked about enough that
(22:20):
I feel like it's time to take that more seriously.
It's time to take that time and try to get
more out of it, whether that's more good versus good,
high intensity type of practices and doing whatever you can do.
And you know you're the rules do limit you, but
you know you certainly can be out there and be
more competitive with your best players that are there at
(22:43):
that time of year, and that's hard. A lot of
them don't show up and you go through that. But whatever,
I think you've got to take that more seriously, and
I think these guys have to. You have to get
real extended work for Burrow in the offense in the preseason.
I think he wants that. I think I think that
if it weren't for the injury stuff, the risks whatever,
that he would have been doing that this year. I
(23:06):
think the game against Pittsburgh where he had all the
turnovers the beginning of twenty two taught that lesson, and
he's wanted to do that since but not been healthy
enough to do so. Really, I think that's gonna be important,
you know, whether it's playing the first half of multiple
games to really get out, get that first game junk
out of their system. There's a risk in that no
(23:27):
one wants to go see anybody get hurt. But at
a certain point, like it's a game that these guys
are playing that they need to be more ready to
go Week one. Well, there's one way to go, and
that is to get the old Week one out of
your system before it counts.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
All right, I have two more players to ask you
about and my masochism rankings, but I do have to
get one more breaking. Are you okay with that?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Let's go, Let's go. I like it all right?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Good stuff. Paul Tayner Junior at the Athletic dot Com
on the Bengals will get to two players and masochism
rankings next, I'm a twin peaks in Westchester on ESPN
fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports.
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and Miami battles ball State hockey. Tonight, the Blue Jackets
(25:33):
skate at Pittsburgh Paul Danner Juniors here for one more segment.
I promise, by the way, on the defensive coordinator interviews,
I know these interviews last like four or five hours.
This would be very simple for me if Zach is
doing the interviewing.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Right, Yeah, yeah, he's part of it for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So the guy comes in and we exchange pleasantries, and
then we pop on film the first Pittsburgh game, third
and four, Justin Fields comes jogging out onto the field,
and I simply ask the guy, what do you think
the Steelers are gonna do here? And if if he says,
probably have Justin Field's run, then we advance to the
(26:13):
rest of the interview. If the coordinator's like, god, I
don't know, you know what, We're not gonna waste his
time or ours.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yes, no, that's the end the door. That's the end
the or I think you do that before you bring
the guy in for sure, Like that's it's it's a
it's an email. It's just an email with a screen
shot and it's just it says the situation and the lineup,
and then they get the email back Field is probably
gonna run and then you say, okay, we got you
a plane ticket.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Right perfect, That's that's the first one. So like I
would advance to the next stage of questions because I
know the answer to that. Now from that point forward,
we all know I'm not qualified, but I would at
least get to Like I would get to what's next,
I would qualify.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
That's you. You thought the bar was previously low, that's
about as low as bar as he could possibly get.
I mean, I think even Josh Newton is now getting
over top of that bar.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
So yes, yes, no question. So God knows. We have
weeks to talk about t Higgins and free agency and
what they could do with players who may leave and
players they want to bring in. But last offseason, two
players asked for trades. One of them was Trey Hendrickson,
who was coming off a really good twenty twenty three,
(27:30):
two years left on his deal as for a trade,
doesn't get it. Since then, he's had a season that
has put him understandably so in the conversation to be
the defensive Player of the Year, ends up running away
with the NFL sack title. Has one less year on
his deal. So what's he going to do this offseason?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
It's a great question I have. I know everybody's doing
the offseason checklist. I heard you and Tony going through
it yesterday and I have it too, And I've got
all the things in here, and I have one in
the middle of it, and it just says Hendrickson and
I decided to go with eight question marks. It's just
I don't know. I mean, is he gonna is he
(28:12):
gonna want more? Is he gonna demand? Is it gonna
be like last year where it's you know, you know
he's gonna ask for more. We're gonna balk, he's gonna
play his face off. Anyway, he's in the contract here,
they can sit there and say, look, you go have
a good year again and you'll get what you want.
You'll hit free agency to they they talk about extending him.
(28:34):
I mean that would be out of the ordinary for
them with a player of his age now past thirty
or at thirty, So you're you're talking about things that
they don't necessarily like to do. There. Do they get
very forward thinking? Do you go, you know, old school
school New England style here and trade the guy one
year before to get premium value. You'll never have more
(28:55):
trade value than you have right now for tradeinders if
you actually do make a trade and not have to
pay that use that money to pay t Higgins and
acquire a couple of draft picks in the process. There's
a couple. There's a many different ways to look at it.
I would love to be a fly on the wall
for those conversations of what is the approach with Trey Henderson.
(29:17):
You have this guy who is everybody in the league
wants someone like this, but this defense needs a lot
of things. They also need to be young. So so
how are they going to approach him, and especially how
is he going to approach this? Is he gonna come
in throwing bows again or is it gonna be Look,
he's just gonna be solely focused on this one more
(29:38):
year until he hits free agency. It's fascinating, It's it's
under the radar. One of the most interesting things about
this entire very interesting offseason. I don't have answers on that.
I think those are going to start playing themselves out
once they get this whole coordinator thing locked in.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Have they reached the point of no return with Jermaine Burn.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Sure feels like it. I mean, I don't This feels
like a big It was already hard to say how
they could ever trust the guy again after the first
time this stuff happened in mid season, Right, I don't know,
it's okay to say with on that one. Right, it's
(30:23):
okay to say, shoot, took a chance, it was it
was turned out to be a bad risk. Let's not
let it eat up a second ear don't let the
same team beat it twice, Right, And so you're that
feels like what this is? I think this is this.
I don't know how you trust any of this again.
And I think they as a as an organization, as
(30:44):
a staff kind of had their hands up a little
bit of we don't really even know what to do
with this anymore. And so yeah, it feels like to me,
the easiest thing, the most obvious thing that you should
do is is just be done with it. If if
he goes and takes off and somebody else figures it out,
than good for them, you know, but it doesn't have
to be your problem. It doesn't.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Are they getting unfairly dinged for their evaluation of him?
And look they they've whipped on Jermaine Burton. It happens,
But like, say what to one about how they've built
this team? Their recent drafts have included the likes of
Marius Mims, who looks like a guy who gets it,
Chris Jenkins who looks like a guy who gets it,
Chase Brown, who comes off as a guy who who
(31:30):
gets it. Like, like, there's a lot of guys that
we could we could debate how good some of these
players are gonna be, but like, there's there's a lot
of guys even in recent drafts where it feels like,
you know, impressive young men and then you can go
back even you know, deeper if you want to, you know,
players like t Higgins, et cetera. Are they getting unfairly
beaten up for misevaluating or ignoring some things about Jermaine Burton.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
No, they're not not unfair. They should be getting get
beat up that they went away from who they built
the thing that way. They built the thing off of
going for the player who you can count on, who
it will matter more to, who will be reliable, who
will get the most out of what they have, rather
than these you know, flyers on guys with traits and
(32:16):
possibility and maybe some bat and background issues. Right that
that's the stuff that they got away from, and that's
what they built that whole team on.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
But then they got this locker room full of good
guys and they saw this is a type of locker
room that can really take one of those types of
players and put their arm around them.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And man, you love your coaches and may with this
wide receiver room. If you can't go into a wide
receiver room with Jamar Chase working harder than everybody, Key
Higgins working just as hard as anybody. Tory Walsh is
one of the best wide receivers coaches in the game.
A guy like Yoshiavasho's getting the most out of his talent.
Like this stuff is a bunch of like if you
can't drop somebody into that room and they realize what
it's like to be a premature and move into this
(32:58):
first round ability, then man, and it's enticing to do that.
It's so enticing to do that and say it will happen.
It doesn't work like that, It just doesn't. And they
knew that when they started building this thing. And I
think you lose your way when you get greedy, when
you think you have so much good around. I think
that's a part of the lesson here. It's a part
of the lesson with Jackson Carmen. It's part of the
(33:20):
lesson with a lot of these busts. They know the
reasons these players bust. It's because you take these risks.
Sometimes it's worth a gamble because it's later in the
draft and you can Maybe that's the unfairness, fairness of
the ding on them there as it is, you're in
the eighties. But they needed a receiver, they needed answers
at receiver. They had all kinds of uncertainty coming up.
(33:40):
Guy like Jayalen McMillan's just sitting there. He's the obvious pick.
He would be. You know, he's solid as compedient. You
like him, you can take him. But no, you want
to roll the dice and take the risk because you
see this insane potential and you pay for it and
you eat it. Now, so that's not unfair to diging
them for that. They got away from kind of the
way they like to build things. And I think they
(34:00):
have to realize now that you just gotta stop taking
these chances, or you better be really, really sure that
you have a different version of the background on this
player than everybody else has.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'm looking here at the bottom of the screen, here
at twin Peaks on FS one and the reporting that
Antonio Pierce has been fired by the Raiders. So you know,
Marvin Lewis now is a free agent, and that was
a defensive coordinator.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I I see, I see no problems with this. I mean,
let's do it. Let's let's let's bring them in, let's
talk about it. I actually think you're wrong. I don't
think that's the fit. I think game management coach, no, no, no, no,
in your job. Yeah, I would really, just for your sake,
(34:54):
I would love if if Marvin got that job over you.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
There. There are very few things that would make me
sort of push my chips to the middle of the table.
That might be one of them. All right, So, as
I'm laying there late on Sunday afternoon, the Chiefs are playing.
They had like eight guys on the field on offense
and defense against the Denver Broncos in a blatant lay
(35:19):
down like I was wrong. I thought the players who
played would play hard. I mean, that was August football,
and fine, they're right to do. How IM not blaming them,
you know, like Andy Reid's job is to do what
is best for his team. He thought that was best
for his team. But from about four thirty five in
the afternoon on, my attention went from what the Broncos
(35:41):
were doing to people pretending to be Kansas City Chiefs.
And I started to think back to all the games
that could have like swung the season, and some many
of those games could have swung and did swing on
one play. And you asked the question, which of the
seven to one score defeats are you most replaying in
your head right now? And the question from the the
(36:01):
answer for me was all of them. And so I've
compiled from seven to one. Uh In, I guess it
would be ascending order. Which ones I which ones I
relitigated least to most? Are you ready?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Okay? So least to most? All right, let's go.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Number seven was Washington, which kind of the beginning of
the end for Lou you know, sort of foreshadowed how
miserable this defense was going to be. Uh, you know,
I I think I think of that night more just
in real time. Was in awe of how good jayde
Daniels was. But but also there was no pass rush.
He makes a great throw to essentially see all the game.
(36:42):
I thought of that game, but I didn't think much
of it. So that would be number seven.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I'm with you, I I have I have my
rankings in front of me as well. Washington also at
the bottom. Plus they were really banged up. It was early.
You're like, all right, Jadon Daniel was bare, and you
thought they're banged up. It's early time to recover from
that one.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Right, Uh. Number six the Pittsburgh loss, because by then
I had kind of given up. I didn't go into
that game thinking like, boy, if they win this one.
This like what I was watching from the defense was
horrific and and that might have you know, who knows,
sealed lose fate. But by then I knew they couldn't
(37:19):
stop anybody decent. Not that the Steelers offensively ended up
being all that good, but like I spent more of
that time laughing at what the Bengals were doing defensively
than I was getting mad or thinking, God, this was
a game that they could have used to pivot their
season in the right direction. So I put that at
number six.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
That's fair. Yeah, no, I mean it's more. It's more
just so Wilson, right, Yeah, that's more. I had it
one spot higher strictly for the Russell Wilson shock value.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Okay, I know, and you talked about this lumping the
three games where they scored ninety nine points and didn't
win any of them. I thought a lot about the
Chargers game, and specifically the three possessions they had. They
obviously got the ball back with a chance for a
hail Mary down by seven points, but the three possessions
(38:12):
prior to that one where they kind of mismanage it
with Jamar Chase on the sideline and two miss field
goals could have capped off a remarkable comeback that you
thought in real time, Boy, if they do this now,
this thing can take off.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's that's what. And then and in
the beginning of the you know, really the I guess
the full throat of the Evan McPherson, what the hell
is going on here right and now. And that's that
was sort of and when you get into you know,
the the mass kids of breakings, I think it's the
(38:47):
the incredulous. It's it's the really that that that is
the thing that's going to be going wrong to seal
the face. I think that's why that that moves up
a little bit as well.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Number four Kansas City, fourth and sixteen to John Anthony
not rushing Patrick Mahomes, you know, nearly getting a win
when the Chiefs offensively were not at their best. Now,
we didn't know they were gonna go fifteen to two
and play unevenly for much of the season, but it
felt like they were this close to stealing one that
(39:19):
would have washed away much of the bad tape in
the previous week. And we were kind of framing that game,
it's like, well, you know, these two teams could be
neck and neck in the AFC, and boy, the tiebreaker
would go to Cincinnati, and man, the Chiefs would have
to come here. Obviously, it didn't come close to playing
out that way, but I do wonder what that game
being so early and everything that goes into playing the
(39:40):
Kansas City Chiefs. I just I wonder what the intangible
effect would have been from getting that game week two,
And I thought about that a lot.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, that one was the one, I mean well New England,
but I mean that one was the one that had
the most ripple effect that you think it could have
changed the entire tone of this season, would have people
You win that and nobody even cares about New England anymore,
you know, like you you reset the bar. It was
just a bad first week. You went into Arrowhead and
took down the Chiefs like that changes the entire feel
(40:13):
and every step of the way where we were, you know,
we spent every week doing the bad mass it was,
it'd be a little less bad and there'd be a
little bit more optimism encouragement along the way. That's the one,
and then to me it's higher. I have all the
way up at two just because of the referee angst
factor from Bengalis fans versus the Chiefs. It's like it
(40:33):
that that dug up so many old wounds when it
was another referee situation in Kansas City, and the fact
that it's you know what, de Jon Anthony, what is
the seventh rounder doing out here in the spot too?
All of it the incredulous nature of all of that.
I had that all the way up at two. All right.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Number three. Ravens won the first Baltimore game two different
times in the fourth quarter they had a double a
two score lead. The Marlin Humphrey pick I replayed a
thousand times the sequence leading up to the bad Ryan
Rico hold. We talked about so much and I've thought
about so much over the last forty eight to seventy
(41:14):
two hours. Painful Ravens won is number three.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Number one for me. That's I mean that because that
also has the same effect. That also has the same
effect of the Kansas City game. You know, where the
math is not so bad, the optimism is different. You
get that win. I mean, they're in the division race
right up until the very end because you're bringing Baltimore
back down a pay Who knows what that change is
(41:40):
going forward after that. And just the fact of like
they got the mistake, like they they got the break.
Look they get the fumble on the snap and there
they are right there and lining up money Matt can't
even get properly. The uh, you know, unbelievable nature of that.
(42:03):
And then plus the ripple effects I had that as
I had that as number one, all right.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Number two for me was Baltimore to one play the
two point conversion, because when they lose to Baltimore, I go, okay,
win free out of the next four, which they did.
Eagles loss had its own set of issues, but they
still My thing was get to Baltimore and use that
as a pivot point when they're you're five hundred and
then we go. And they were a play away from
(42:29):
doing that. They were a play away from surviving everything
else that happened that night. When Joe Burrows stayed on
the field Ice I was at that game, I said
out loud, they're gonna get out of here with a win,
and now we take off and yep, there are there
are two missed penalties. One was egregious. He doesn't look
at Jamar. I mean, it just it felt like everything
(42:52):
frustrating about the season in a nutshell in one play
where they were just good enough to lose. I have
thought of about that almost every single day since November
the seventh, which I guess exactly to your two months ago.
I thought about that play in that game almost every
single day, and I certainly did on Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I mean the Chase Brown fumble could be looked at
as a turning point in the entire season. You know,
where they're up there, dominating, and all of a sudden,
the entire building changes, and then you get the half
effort on the wallace eighty four yard touchdown from from
everybody on the defensive side, and it's just, you know,
you have those types of leads late in games, and
(43:35):
you should you should win. It shouldn't even come down
to that. And then you have that play. They make
the play Jamar, I mean, Jamar goes for two What
the number is escaping me right now? For two hundred
and whatever? Joe is amazing. I mean, that was the
ultimate Tungsten Armodoyle game where you should never How is
(43:55):
it possible that these things happening in the Bengals lose
the game? Yeah, now there's it's hard to it's so
hard to make these decisions.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Mo.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
There's so many bad moments and incredulous moments.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
And then number one for me is New England. And
there was a lot in that game. But what I
think about when I think of that game more than
anything is all right, here we go. NFL is giving
them a gift bad team, rookie head coach, backup quarterback.
They're huge favorites. The NFL is giving them an easy win.
They're gonna blow these guys out, and all they're gonna
do is is just throw gas onto the fire of
(44:30):
how people are excited, can't wait, and they come out
drive number one, free and out, Drive number two, free
and out, drive number three, free and out. Energy from
stadium gone. Suddenly this game that they were going to
win is in jeopardy. They end up losing lots of
(44:51):
nuts and bolts of the game itself. It remains unforgivable
four months later, losing to that team that would go
four and thirteen and fire its coach that was playing
Jacoby Brissett. Uh No, Joe Burrow wasn't wasn't comfortable. They
barely use Chase Brown. They miss a billion tackles. You
to me, that was number. They had plenty of time
(45:12):
to recover. I get it. All those other one score games,
those other losses were to playoff teams. The Patriots didn't
come close. It remains agonizing three four months later.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, I mean I remember most from that game though,
thinking the is Joe Burrow broken right? Because he was?
It was he would drop back. He looked uncomfortable, he
wasn't doing anything he normally does, and he wasn't broken.
But it is remarkable how different he looked in that
game compared to pretty much the rest of the season.
I mean, it took that game for him to feel
(45:46):
to get more comfortable or force himself to be more
comfortable in game situation with that risk, which is part
of why I go back to some of the stuff
that we talked about with the slow starts, where that
was still a part of it when Burrow wasn't his
full self this year until he got through that first month.
I mean the numbers back that up and the way
he threw it, and obviously he played different. And that's
(46:06):
when will the season where truly fully healthy Joe Burrow
with no issue gets out there and is ready to
go From week one, maybe that's when you get the
fast start. But from this point forward, when we reference
slow starts and one and eleven in the first two
games under Zach Taylor of the season, it will always
(46:26):
start with I mean, you never know, you just assume
they're gonna lose. After what happened against New.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
England, all right, I am way late. I appreciate it.
You gave us the entire hour. That wasn't my intent,
but I thank you nonetheless.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
No, you're good, no problem, though, appreciate it. Have a
good one.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
YouTube the Great Paul Danner Junior Atthathletic dot com. My
apologies to a terran for totally butchering the clock where
twin peaks in Westchester on ESPN fifteen thirty.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty. Traffic from the UC Health Traffic
so you see helps Weight Loss Center offers comprehensive obesity
care and advanced surgical expertise. Call five one three nine
three nine two two sixty three. That's nine three nine
two two sixty three. Northbound seventy one. The exit ramp
(47:14):
to Ridge Avenue has now been reopened after earlier two
vehicles off in the snow. There southbound seventy five after
Sharon Road, the left lane blocked off from an accident
one vehicle there in the median on that eazalek with traffic.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
This report is sponsored by
Mo Egger News
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