David Thomas Tao

David Tao returns to the show to take us inside the world of theater production and spirits (not the BOO!) kind. Following up his role as the successful CEO of Barbend.com, David has taken on two new roles he’s passionate about: producing theater in New York, and writing about spirits – primarily whiskey and bourbon. He discusses the role of a producer and gives us an inside view of the process of selecting and developing a show for the stage. He also gives tips on how to find out spirits you enjoy, and how to develop a discerning palate (and have fun while doing it).

You can find David on Instagram @davidthomastao https://www.instagram.com/davidthomastao and on X @d-tao https://x.com/d_tao. Give him a follow. He's got great content every day. 

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____   Hosted by Mike Farr (@silentmikke) https://www.instagram.com/silentmikke/ and Jim McDonald (@thejimmcd). https://www.instagram.com/thejimmcd/ Produced by Jim McDonald Production assistance by Sam McDonald and Sebastian Brambila. Theme by Aaron Moore. Show art by Joseph Manzo (@jmanzo523)



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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Okay, now we're prepared to be live. Oh boy, you
got quiet again for a second.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
It's just because I'm nervous. I'm not actually nervous.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
It's like, why would you be nervous?

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm going to just recap my current situation because Tanner
from Massonomics texted me the other day and said it, did.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Mike move or where's Mike? And I'm like, Mike is?

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I think Mike is actually in Hawaii today. I think
he's been in Texas or whatever. He's training the streamer
named Agent zero through the end of the year, so
he has not been around, which is why I have
been reaching out to my friends and anybody that I'm
interested in talking to and saying, hey, how about coming
on the podcast and talking to me so that I

(00:58):
can keep it going because no one is going to
want to listen to me. Just talk to myself.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
I would listen to that for longer than most would.
I don't know how long you'd keep me on, but
but longer than me.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
But you're my friend, and so that has something to
do with it. I would assume I would. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
I don't know, so I'm on here with David Tao,
somebody who used to be firmly rooted in the fitness
world who is now not and probably gratefully.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
So I think I ran so fast and far away
from the fitness world that I got in better shape
doing it. Oh yeah, basically, you know, like it was.
I was just like it has changed my relationship with
wellness and I'm I'm just much healthier now that I'm

(01:50):
not in the fitness space. And I hate to say it,
I'm not the only person that's happened to.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
I believe that, you know, I believe that for sure.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
So so you you ran towards other interests that that
it is a really good reason to talk to you
at this point. I think that my audience is probably
particularly interested in the spirit's aspect, but I want to
talk broadway too, because like that is a that is

(02:24):
a base that needs to still be developed, Like fitness
people appreciating what happens on stage.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I appreciate that. I would like to say that's I
think there is a lot of crossover between like physical
culture and live performance. Yeah, and I think that that's
hopefully an interest we can like cross pollinated. But we'll see,
you know, if this is your worst performing episode.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Of all time, it will be.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
That's a good data point.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
It's it's good to know, but it's probably not gonna
be the case at all. Okay, So I know you
were just at Fringe Festival, which is I think I
told you on my bucket list of things to do.
I love Edinburgh and I've been to the to the
what is it just for laughs in Montreal. I've yes

(03:13):
been to that one. And that's fun. That's a lot
of fun. Just you can just sort of walk around
from show to show practically.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Fringe is Fringe is interesting because I I didn't I
didn't have an intense viewing schedule, like I went there
for specific like work things. Yeah, some people see nine
shows a day.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Oh my lord.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
I talked to people who were like, oh yeah, I
saw eight shows yesterday. I'm seeing nine shows Today's amazing.
It is. There are like over three thousand individual shows,
not over three thousand individual performances, three thousand like different shows.
Oh my god, you can see. It is insane, absolutely
insane in a good way, I think.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah. I mean I when I was there, we saw
a stand up show, kind of a very long stand
up show in one of the venues, and it was
you know, it was people who routinely perform during Fringe,
because why wouldn't they write, They'd live there, so like
they have the ability to put on, you know, whatever

(04:17):
comedy they want to at any.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Time they want to, I assume.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
But you were there specifically to see or to be
with a particular show.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, that's correct. I was not there the whole time.
I was there the last the final week, and the
final week is the easiest time if you're producing. And
I was producing a show, and I fortunately had a
team that went over there because I was closing down
a different show we had here in New York. Yeah,
and so they went over and started. And the first
part of Fringe is really tough because if you're going

(04:47):
for the first time, you have to fight to stand out.
So you're like handing out flyers, You're trying to get
butts in seats, You're convincing people to come see your show.
And if you're a performer, you might have like one
hundred person venue and you might be performing to ten
people your first few shows, because like just word of
mouth really matters. So by the time I got there,

(05:07):
the show was already selling out. It was already by
all accounts, a hit. It was one of the best
reviewed shows of Fringe. And people were coming up to
me and they're like, oh my god, you're a producer
for the show. Congratulations, And I'm like, yep, thank you,
I thank thank you.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
I've been here working my ass off in spirit.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yes I didn't. I didn't hand out a single flyer
the entire time I was there. But it's a testament too.
It's a show that we helped develop here in New York,
and so, you know, the show we knew was great,
and it was just convincing enough people to come see
it and then post about it and it be a
word of mouth thing to where by the last week

(05:50):
people are like trying to you know, trying to buy
tickets off people in line. Like that's how the regular
it was. So yeah, word to the wise, if you're
producing it Fringe, just make sure it's a hit before
you show up. Yeah, exactly, way to do it, great time.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, and just be careful not to break your arm
patting yourself on the back when yeah, when all the
accolades roll in, right exactly. So producing stuff's easy, you
you know, it's I know you've produced several shows in
sort of different levels of participation in in in producing,

(06:26):
like what what does that actually look like on a
practical level.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
The best thing, thank you for asking, Jim. The best
thing I could like in it too, is like every
show is a little startup, and startups are always different, right,
Like the goal with some startups in theatrical production is
that you grow it, and you go it and you
grow it and then it goes to Broadway, right, right,
And that's kind of like your That's like the closest
thing to an IPO, right for like a company, it's

(06:52):
like this big it's like your your your public offering,
and sometimes public offerings go really well and you have
a hit, and sometimes public offerings don't go well, and
it depends on Because producing, you can get involved with
the different stages. So I've been involved with some lovely
Broadway shows that have done quite well. And I come
on like while the show is already you know, part

(07:13):
way through the show's life cycle, and I might be
responsible for some of the marketing, or I might be
responsible for part of the capitol.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
Race that's needed.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
You're pretty much always responsible for part of the capital race.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, that's how you get to do the other stuff, right,
So how you becoming the conversation table exactly.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Oftentimes if you're co producing on Broadway, you're just raising money.
You're just responsible for the budget for something like this.
This is a show, the show we took to French
as a show called Whole. It's a musical, and the
premise is, and it's performed entirely by the two people
who wrote it. They perform every role, and they play
all the instruments, some of which they found in the trash.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
It's great.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
And then the premise is that there's a cult in
Nebraska that believes they have to wear butt plugs at
all time or else God will suck them up and
burn them on the surface of the sun. And it
turns out that basically comes true. So the only people
left on earth are this cult and anyone else who
happened to be wearing a butt plug. And then like
that's like the start of the plot, and then like
the plot goes from there. It is brilliant and genius

(08:16):
and it's like not actually what people think it is.
It's like not really gross, it's it's it is a
bit versical but it's also like got a lot of
heart and it's a coming of age story, and you
watch the audience and like by the end, people are
crying a because they're laughing, but also B because it's
like really touching and sweet and there's a lot of
Catharsis in it, and people are like, Oh my god,
I like I really connected with the characters, which is

(08:38):
insane to say about a butt plug musical, but that's
one where I got involved as a producer from the
earliest stages. So my one of my production partners and
I were the lead producers, so we were like helping
to develop that from you know, before it had ever
been performed, like truly been performed. They'd had like a

(08:58):
like a they'd performed for some friends, but like the
first like ticketed, paid performance, we were you know, we
were like, we think this has commercial potential. We're going
to try and like actually help develop it. So getting
them rehearsal spaces, working with the director, like giving suggestions
with the creative and then gradually performing it at slightly

(09:18):
bigger and bigger venues in New York City until I
was like, oh, we can take this to fringe and
then raising the money so that they could actually go
to fringe, because you have to pay these people right
as deservedly, so you know they deserve it, finding them
a place to stay, like marketing it, figuring out how
you produce a show overseas, and then trying to gradually

(09:41):
build and build and build. So we were kind of
involved from the very beginning and have been basically the
executives driving the ship. And as the show gets bigger,
we may have to bring on additional producers to bring
on more capital or more connections or just expand the team.
But it's amazing. Yeah, it's by a duo called American

(10:03):
Sing Song.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Okay as.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
They're American sing Song on Instagram. They're fantastic Jake and Naudia.
I think they're absolutely brilliant geniuses. They're hilarious, they're kind,
they're smart, and that's like just a rare trifecta that
you get, yeah, in in people who are just very
and people that you get to work with, Like in life,

(10:27):
how often do you get to work with people who
are all those things?

Speaker 3 (10:29):
Right?

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Not often enough?

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Not often? And the director's awesome, his name's RJ. So
a real dream to produce something that like people looked
at us like we were crazy a year ago when
we were like, oh, we're going to probably produce this
butt plug musical.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
People are like to tell them it's like Wally but
but but sort of but.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
But honestly, there's actually a lot of there are more
Wally comparisons. If you've seen the show. I know you haven't,
ha like, but if you see the show, you're like, wait,
they are actually a lot of Wally Can Garrisons here.
So we're trying to figure it. We're likely going to
take the show to London this fall and or perform

(11:08):
it at different venues in New York this fall. So
all that to say, theater production is like starting a
company and you have to figure out how big you
want your company to be, right, Like, do you want
your company to grow and be this big thing that's
like at the highest tier, which is like Broadway or
the West End, or you know, is it a company

(11:30):
that maybe it's like a lifestyle business, right, Maybe you're
not trying to create this big behemoth, right, Maybe you
think that it will do better if it does not
go to a thousand seat venue, right, So the top
I think one of the toughest parts about theater is
if you have something that's successful, figuring out what is

(11:51):
the top level it can be successful at. Because sometimes
you will have a hit off Broadway or off off
Broadway or in a different market and you take it
to Broadway which costs millions and millions of dollars and
it flops.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Right, And I think a lot of this is figuring
out like what is the right audience and for what
you're producing.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
I mean that's true of any any startup of any kind.
It's basically you just have no idea. You go on
your gut and you have no no idea. I know
you've talked in the in the past offline about that
that magical metric of of you know, what people are,
what people spend.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Per ticket.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Atp average ticket price.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, and that's like that that could be difficult
to estimate. I would imagine it is.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
I mean, it depends on the venue, It depends on
how expensive things are, like the whole whole. We're really
lucky because musicals tend to be really expensive because music
is like plays tend to be cheaper. You add music
and it tends to be more expensive. All the music
is performed by these two brilliant people who are playing
instruments while they're acting like it's it's really a rare thing.

(13:02):
So it's ultimately, you know, you don't have to pay
for at least in this version, we're not paying for
a full band or a full orchestra. Right, it's the
two of them. Now, that's that's rare, and that's also
part of the charm. So you know, the question for
us becomes, well, is there a version of this where
it's like a much bigger team on stage? I don't know, right,

(13:25):
these are these are all things we questions we have
to answer, but I kind of completely forgot what the
question was.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
I think you've you've you've pretty much said I. It's
just how you figure out like what that what that
average ticket price is going to be? Like what what?
What are people going to be willing to pay for it?
At which level of uh of of venue?

Speaker 2 (13:49):
I guess right, thank you, thank you for guiding me back.
You can lead a horse to water and he'll just
walk away. Multiple times.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
I've been doing this in a minute.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
So it's it's you have a little experience you've recorded
or too. Average ticket price is kind of everything, because
like I've been involved with shows that sold really well,
sold most of their tickets, but people weren't willing to
pay a lot per ticket and the show did not
do that well financially. And then I've been involved with

(14:19):
shows in much smaller theaters so we didn't have to
sell that many tickets, but people were willing to pay
a lot of money per ticket and the show did
really well. So it's not just about like are you
filling up your house? It's how are you monetizing every
person who's coming through the door. Yeah, right, because you
can have a Broadway house that might be fifteen hundred

(14:40):
seats and if you fill it up, that's great, But
if people are only paying forty bucks per ticket, you're
going to be losing money. Right. But if you know,
if you have a much smaller theater and people are
paying two hundred bucks per ticket, you're probably going to
be doing pretty well and your costs are going to
be a lot lower. So it's a metric that is
like it's a popularity contest, but it's also like what

(15:02):
are people willing to do and where is that price.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Threshold you Obviously I haven't said it so far, but
people who know who you are know that you were
a very successful founding CEO of Barbend dot com and
transitioned away from that when when the company was sold
and moved into this what You obviously have a pretty

(15:27):
good gut for figuring out what's going to work. Do
you ever push forward when everything else seems to say
that that there's success on the horizon your gut is
a little.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
I mean, I mean I've produced some things over the
last couple of years that did not do well, so
my gut is not always right. Yeah, I have Also,
I think the best example is like I, I have
committed to things and believed in things that I should
have gone full bore into. It's easier to have regrets

(16:08):
for the things that you you're like, wow, I do
like I went a little bit into this, but I
should have just like put all the chips in. An
example is a show that I co produced on Broadway
called Oh Mary, which is a wildly successful show yeah
Broadway by any metric, by literally any metric like awards,
won reviews, given, money made, and I co produced it,

(16:30):
so I believed in the show, and I actually also invested,
so I also put some of my own money into it,
and in addition to just to raising money from others.
And I look back on that and I'm like, I
should have put all my money into that. I didn't
put it like every cent I had into that, because
that has been a great, a great hit. But at

(16:52):
the same time, it was also a non traditional play.
It was also very much a non traditional show to
take to Broadway, and it was considered I think a
lot of people would have considered it very risky. At
the same time, we knew, like the first week it opened,
that this was going to be a hint that was
like audiences just responded so, well, it's tough. It's no
one gets it right one hundred percent of the time.

(17:13):
I don't think there's a single career producer who has
like really taken swings and really like believed in creative
that hasn't gotten it wrong a time or two.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, I would say with oh, Mary, like just from
the outside, having talked to you about it before it
before it came to fruition.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
That.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
I thought it was a real gamble and I thought
it would it. I thought it had a pretty good
chance of success, but it also there was a real
chance that people just would not get it. And then
once I saw it, oh no, I understand why people
get it. It works on a lot of different levels.
And probably the biggest surprise of the whole thing to.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Me was that Cole A.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Skola, who wrote it and was the original Mary Todd Lincoln,
people are not gonna know. This is like a purely
fictional story about Mary Todd Lincoln being an alcoholic and
an absolute brat and someone completely disengaged from everything that's

(18:19):
going on in the White House and wants to be
a cabaret star.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
And I.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
That character is so fully formed that you are not
ever distracted by the fact that that Cole's pronouns are
they them? You never get that at all. And you've
had you've had men and women play that character since
since Cole's you know, Cole left for a while, came

(18:49):
back pre Tony's, and then is off.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Now I just saw that.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
Jane Krakowski is coming on as a Mary, and I realized.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
This is this is a Chicago.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
With some of the same cast members.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Actually, yeah, way, it's a Chicago for people who don't know.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Chicago has been running on Broadway forever, and the way
they refresh it is by bringing in you know, name talent,
people with broad appeal from TV movies or whatever to
come in and play key roles, and it just keeps
it rolling and rolling and rolling. I imagine that o'mary

(19:28):
could run forever.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
I hope it does. I think that I give a
lot of credit to the lead producers who originally put
the package it and put it together and brought other
producers like myself on because they see casting potential here.
It's a little I will say the thing, I think
Chicago's a great comparison. I think the thing that it
does maybe better than It's a different thing. I don't

(19:51):
want to compare. I don't want to say better than Chicago,
because Chicago's doing a very different thing and that's not
fair to necessarily compare. But this character is so outlandish,
and this performance is so can be so dialed up
to eleven out of ten or twelve out of ten.
It's almost a challenge to cast members to say, like
can you bring it?

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Like what what can you like? What? What is your
what is your what are you bringing here? Because you
can do this completely different Everyone who performs this role
does it differently. What is your what is your twelve
out of ten, and it's a very demanding role. But
I think it's a if I were an actor of
that caliber, I would I would be tempted because it's

(20:32):
almost a challenge, right, It's like what is.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
My most Yeah, it's one of those things you would
go into it and you would you would shoot for
the for the moan, and you would wait for somebody
to tell you you've gone too far.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Right.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
And the director Sam Pinkleton, who is phenomenal and I've
gotten to know you know decently well through this process.
I I don't know if Sam would ever rain someone
in from their twelve, but Sam would would channel that.
Exam would say like, this is how we're going to
channel that. What's not like dim your light, let's just

(21:06):
focus it this way. So, yeah, it's been, that's been.
That's what I listen that, that's that's If they could
all be like that, this would be a very different conversation.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, you probably would have time to talk to me.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
I just yeah, I'd be like we'd be on a
we'd be on a very large boat, a very very
large boat. I think it's just an example of one
thing I like about entertainment. Is that it is subjective
and it is impossible to predict with one accuracy. I

(21:43):
I liken O Mary to the cult horror film, and
I think that's that's an imperfect that's an imperfect comparison.
But like every year, every other year, there's a horror
film that just gets a cult following, right, and you're like,
how did that happen? Or I couldn't have predicted that necessarily,

(22:05):
Or there's like a thriller and oh Mary became that
on stage, like the like the movie Megan, which now
has a sequel, Megan was actually really big and very
popular in the queer community.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Uh huh, which oh Mary has to be right.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Which oh Mary Omary definitely, But Omry's like transcendent. Omary's
popular in every The variety of people we get in
to see the show is phenomenal, Right, It's just like
everyone's trying to figure out, like it's very interesting to see,
like how who told whom what that got them in
the in this theater?

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, Actually back up and say, it's not when I
saw it that I was pretty sure it was going
to be a hit. It was when my friend Nick Scopoletti,
who was friends with Lisa Lampinelli, who saw it off Broadway,
saw that it was coming to Broadway, and she told him, look,
we're going to see this show. I'm going to get
the tickets. Ven Momy, We're going you have to see.

(22:57):
It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. And somebody, you know,
with with as many years of experience and comedy as
Lisa and lamp Binelle says that then it works. It's
going to have to work, right, Just the only open
question being how many people is it going.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
To work for?

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah? And that's a I think that is ultimately the
question for any anyone who tries to build a product, right,
And like a theater show, a play, a musical, it's
a product if you put a lot of work into something,
and if you're a creative or producer and you're building
it even just for yourself, like it's going to have
an audience, the question is how big is that audience

(23:37):
and how much are you committing and how big do
you need that audience to be for it to be
a success.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Right, So if you have if you have a podcast
that is you and a good buddy, and the overhead
is relatively low and it's maybe not necessarily your full
time job. And you find, you know, a thousand listeners
an episode for a lot of people, that's awesome. Yeah,
that's great, right, like amazing. But if you're a major

(24:05):
media studio, in a major podcasting studio, and you're hiring
hosts and you're paying people, and you're you have all
these this overhead and it costs twenty thousand dollars to
produce an episode and you have a thousand listeners total, yeah,
it's a little bit less of a success by that metric, right.
So I think that it's what is the size of

(24:28):
the audience that you need relative to the effort and
your goals.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
It's like a break even analysis really in a lot
of ways. Yeah, just like a you know, an audience,
what's my audience size?

Speaker 3 (24:40):
What can I hope to capture.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
In that regard? I have seen live seen three of
the shows that you produced, and then saw the Good
Night and good Luck live broadcast, which was amazing.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Also, what's your favorite thing that you've worked on?

Speaker 2 (25:01):
I wish I could take any credit for the creative
behind good Night and good Luck, Just to just to
be clear, I don't want to misrepresent. Yeah, I could
take zero credit for the creative work on that. I
think it was a really brilliant collaboration between George Grant
and the director David Cromer, who I gotta spend some
time with recently and who just I think is absolutely brilliant.

(25:22):
If you're ever in New York and David Cromer is
directing a piece of theater, like go see it. It's
my advice, my favorite thing. It might be whole. It
might be this thing we do because because we don't
know where it's gonna go yet, Like we have thoughts
and we have plans, and we don't know, we don't
know ultimately where.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
It's ripe with promise.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Still it's ripe with promise. It's it's different, and it's
the sort of thing that like we saw, we like
picked it out early and we're like, we're gonna, We're gonna,
we want to produce that. Like I remember the meeting
we had with the creative we took them out for
coffee and at the end I remember saying, like, cool,
we really want to produce whole, Like connect us with

(26:07):
your if you're if you're if you're amenable to that,
if that's something you'd like to explore connect us with
your reps and like we'll negotiate that, but we'd really
like to produce it. And they were just like.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Huh what she's being what.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
What like, Oh, we'd like to produce hold. They're like,
we thought you We did not Like, that's not where
we necessarily thought this was gonna We thought you were
being nice and grabbing us coffee, but like we didn't
really necessarily think this conversation was going to end with
like an offer to and they were thrilled yeah, and
then like they wanted to go to fringe. We were like, cool,
we can, we can make that happen. And they're like,
oh wait really, oh okay cool, And it's this this

(26:41):
is this like nice intersection of what we want to
do with them and what they want for what they've built,
and it's just it just feels really good. So we're
kind of in this honeymoon stage right now where we
just had a great run and we're trying to see
like where it can go next, and there's all this
promise and possibility, and it feels like a kid who
just graduated high school and did really well and has

(27:02):
a lot of college offers and gets to like pick
and choose. So yeah, it's this, it's this fun in
between stage right now. And also it's just so different.
It's so radically different than anything else I've worked on,
and getting to work on it soup to nuts and
like every little detail, right, like getting to talk to

(27:23):
the director about like ooh, this costume switch, we should
do it here, we should do it this way, or like,
you know, maybe this dance move they do because there's
like a little bit there's movement in it. It should
be like maybe a little different here, talking like the
pre show playlist, the number of conversations we've had as
a team about the pre show play I get that,

(27:44):
and like getting and and that just makes it special,
right because like if I'm brought onto something while like
on its way to Broadway, I'm not usually helping out
with the pre show playlist. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, right,
But like at that point, the team's pretty big. There
are like people for that, But at this point, I'm like, cool,
here's what I think we should do.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, people don't get how important that is. I mean there,
I've seen several shows in the last few years that
the pre show even had actors on stage, like I
saw We saw Red in the West End a few
years ago with Alfred Molina and he comes out on
stage and sits in a chair essentially with his sort

(28:27):
of sort of three quarter back, like you know, he's
he's not facing the audience at all. You can see
him in a little bit in profile if you're you know,
on the right hand side of the house and.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
Smokes cigarettes for fifteen twenty.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Minutes before the show starts, and it really sets the
attitude of that character before before.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
The first line is ever spoken.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
And I imagine that the pre show music, well I've
certainly seen that and experienced that in different with different shows.
It does a lot to set the tone, the mood
and the expectation and the audience like this is you know,
open your mind to what you're going to see.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
It just going back to Oh Mary, the O Mary
pre show music is maybe the best thing on Broadway
right now. Like the pre show playlist what you can
find on Spotify. Oh really it's great, Yeah, you can
find it. The O Mary pre show playlist is just
maybe the best and it just sets the tones so well.

(29:28):
And like now, when when I go to see the
show or when when like I take people to the
show who've seen it before and they want to see
a new cast member, they want to see it again.
They're like, cool, let's make sure we get there early
so that we can get the full pre show playlist.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, yeah, right, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
In taking a show like that to Fringe. Did you
have any insight given to you about like what the
audience expectations might be, because like, humor in Scotland is different,
having seen stand up there.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
It totally. I don't want to give too much away
and I don't want to be in scendiaria on this podcast,
but I have I have an example. It's something we
had flagged. So we did it in New York a
few times, and New York audiences are very different, right, yeah,
And the Manhattan audience we did in Manhattan different audience
than Brooklyn. We did it in Brooklyn, right, we did
it at a queer performance venue, right, and then we

(30:27):
did it at a regular like music performance venue, like,
very different audiences each time. And that's nice because you
get to see, like, Okay, what are the jokes that
always hit right? What are the what are the things
that don't always hit and you're able to kind of
cross reference. It's it's it's good. It's good research. In Scotland,
we and we thought this might happen. There were certain
I mean, I'll just be straight up with it. It's

(30:48):
totally fine. Like in New York. This is New York.
Jewish humor is a big part of the culture here. Yeah, right,
Like the show is one of one of the creatives
and performers is Jewish, and like that is a big
part of oftentimes a big part of their humor, not
and everything there, right, but like it's it's an integral

(31:09):
part of the New York theater experience if you're around
the comedy scene for long enough, Right, it's just like
culturally such a component of humor here. And those jokes
don't hit as well. It's not they just they just
they just don't. It's just not it's just a very
different you know, it's a very different humor. And it

(31:32):
doesn't it didn't like fundamentally change the show. It was
just like night after night, you could be like that
gets a really great response in Brooklyn and it gets
a much more tepid response in Edinburgh. Yeah, to be fair,
the audiences at the French festival are very diverse. You
get a lot of people coming from New York and

(31:54):
from the US and from all over continental Europe everywhere,
so that helps. But you know, it's yeah, it was
just very it's very interesting, like oh, okay, that's part
that's not really like, yeah, it wasn't great over here.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
As long as there are enough other parts that hit
then you're okay, right, I mean, yeah, yeah. I think
it's funny that you would talk about the about Jewish
humor in New York and the like early television, fifties,
sixties television had a lot of Jewish humor, and I
think that was sort of my first experience with because

(32:31):
I grew up in a place that was very diverse
except that there were not a lot of Jews. And
so my understanding of the culture came from watching TV
and and that you know, those shows were produced, a
lot of them in New York, some of them in
la and uh and yeah, the elements is there.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
It's it's you know, we had I had to remind myself.
I remember it's like the second show, the second whole
performance I saw at Fringe after I kind of got
over my jet lag, I part way through it is
just like, oh not everyone here watches Curby your enthusiasm
just like you know, like it's just it's that that
that Larry David style of humor that was so integral

(33:16):
and like how I grew up watching Seinfeld and then
Larry David's had a chokehold on the TV I've consumed
for most.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Of my life. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Right, there have been more years I've been consuming new
episodes or reruns of a Larry David show than years
I haven't been. And so yeah, just didn't that's that
style just doesn't translate.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
As much as we're there.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, I would believe that well, because it's it's irrational
in a lot.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Of ways, it's contextual.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, okay, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Think I think it's I think it's I think it's
very contextual, and I think that it gives me a
lot of it. It's just another thing I love about
New York, right, Like that's just I'm not I'm not doing.
My name's David, and I have curly hair and and
like a lot of people think I'm half Chinese half
Jewish in New York, which I will take, yeah, but
take it like I'm sure great, Thank you Like, that's

(34:12):
that's like half the city that I'm just fitting in
with right there. Not really, but people a lot of
people pre sing that I'm not Jewish, but I actually
feel a lot of New York City pride that like ooh,
I kind of like I'm aware of that humor. Right,
It's not like what I grew up with my family,
but like I'm aware of it and it makes it
contextual sense to me, and it's just like yes, New

(34:34):
York City, you know, It's just it just makes me
makes me well up with even more city pride.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
I love the city. That's great.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Let's just shift gears for just a second and go
toward the spirit world.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
And I don't mean.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
I'm not talking about pop up stores at this time
of year where you can buy your Halloween.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Costumes, yeah, or or like.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Is there any of those things? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
I actually recently realized or read that that Harry Houdini
was like a big seance debunker, Like he literally had
somebody working for him would go out and like pretend
to be someone who needed to talk to their husband
or father or brother whatever who'd passed on, and and
would like you know, challenge the medium to display their talents,

(35:26):
and of course none of them ever panned as as
being real.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
There's a cool history of illusionists and magicians who are
who deep like to debunk the occult, like Ricky j
is a more recent version of him, who I believe
recently passed somewhat recently passed away. So like, these are
some of the most prominent magicians and illusionists. But they
love proving that, like magic isn't real. Yeah right, They're

(35:54):
like they're kind of like they're people of science in
a sense, like they'll trick you, but they're like, no,
this is not like magic, the occult isn't real.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Like you know, there's Yeah, we're all just having a
good time here. We're also having good times. As Ed
Cone used to say when he would judge it at
untested multiplay meats, we're just having a good time here.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
We're having a good time.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Uh you.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
So you write for.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
For vine Pair? Still, yes, I write for all sorts
of food wine.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
I've seen food and wine Forbes, Drink Hacker, vine Pair.
Might I might be writing for a couple more places
later this year. But I also judge competitions, so I
judge like like the world Whiskey's Awards I'm a judge
for and I'm I just signed I just signed on

(36:57):
to judge that again this year.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
So I am.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
I work in spirits. I'm a mostly a spirits writer
and reviewer, sometimes a judge. Some people might say critic,
and I occasionally speak at like industry of it. I
speak at like panels, or I do like private tastings
for people or for organizations. I do a lot of
work with like nonprofits, so I do like tastings for

(37:20):
nonprofits and oftentimes those will like raise money and things
like that.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
I wish that you had a super fan who would
make a giant, ever updating index of everything that you've
ever said about any particular spirit, because you talk about
things on Instagram sometimes that are not actually part of reviews.
You're just you're you're discussing a particular brand or expression

(37:46):
or whatever. And sometimes I think I'm standing in an
aisle and I'm thinking what would David say about this?
It's like I could text him, but that seems really
annoying because I would be doing it, you know often,
But like I just sometimes wish I knew what you
thought about everything you've ever weighed in.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
On I guess it's I also wish I could remember
everything I Sometimes sometimes I'll be like, wait a minute,
I wrote a review on that. No, I have a
pretty good memory for it. I wish I could apply
because I love it. I like I it was a
hobby that turned into another career. Yeah, if I could
apply that same Like my brain is very good at

(38:27):
at keeping spirits knowledge in my head and like, ooh,
I tasted this years ago, but I can still remember it.
If I could apply that same amount of brain power
to anything else in life, it would be it would
be great. But I cannot.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
You can I feel that. I feel that, you know.
Just as an aside, but back to memory. I went
to an informal high school reunion over the weekend and
was talking to somebody that I haven't talked to probably
since graduation. So Deck aids right, somebody that went K
through twelve with, And he was talking about having a friend,

(39:06):
much younger friend who was a powerlifter and who had
just like moved and just like moved to Cleveland or something.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
And it's like cool. He's like, he tells me the
guy's name and I don't know it, like you know,
I might.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
I don't know all the powerlifters and in the world
they especially if they haven't competed a level that I'm
paying attention to, and even then these days, honestly, and so,
you know, he told me the guy's name. I looked
on Instagram. I didn't see anything that really you know,
rung a bell at that point. And the next night

(39:36):
my former classmate messaged me and said I talked to
him and he.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Knows who you are.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
He was aware of your your old podcast or whatever.
And then he sends me this picture this guy has
sent him that was take it with us at the
twenty fifteen Arnold Like, okay, well, I'm not going to
remember that. We no, no, how many pictures we took
with people, I'm not going to remember that.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Also, twenty fifteen in strength sports was a very special time.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Yeah, it was a heady time.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
It was a hit. This is the best way of saying,
I'm gonna steal that.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
It was a hill free.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
That was the year that inspired us to start barband.
So we started barband in early twenty sixteen and twenty fifteen.
There was just so much going on and it was
all so exciting. Yeah, and kind of like but undefined
still that we were like, we gotta we gotta start
a website for this, we got to bid, we gotta
build ESPN for this community. Yeah, and yeah, twenty fifteen

(40:39):
was special.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
And now I was ten years ago. Dude, ten years.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
No, No, so it was so it was like it
was like six and a half.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
So it's ten years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, you know, the year
two thousand was five years ago, was not the case
at all.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Well, nineteen eighty was twenty years So that's what you were.
That's what you really need to remember.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, I appreciate you know,
reading what you what you're doing. It's probably a lot
of liquor I'm never gonna taste. Some of it is
like out of my price range, and some of it
is just out out of my out of my interest vertical,
you know, or whatever. However, the thing that always blows

(41:24):
me away when I read reviews is tasting notes and
identifying those particular flavors and smells of things that are
not necessarily related to liquor at all that end.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Up in reviews.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
And like I you know, sometimes I can get this
or that or whatever. If I've like read it ahead of.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Time, or I could you have something smoky, I can
get it.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
If it's if it's you know, if it's tastes like medicine,
I can get that. If you know, if it's sweet,
if it has a little bit of a fruitiness to it.
But I couldn't tell you what fruit I would put
it on the list. It's like something really strong, like
an apricod or a peach or an orange or whatever.
So I tend to think, and I know this is true,

(42:09):
like in the in the in the world of sense
that people, some people have a very very refined.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
Nose for for.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Cologne and you know, developing colone and perfume and whatever whatever.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
How did you develop that for spirits?

Speaker 2 (42:30):
A lot of practice, Yeah, and a lot of like writing.
Like before I ever wrote reviews for an outlet and
got paid for it, I was writing reviews for myself
because I was kind of curree. I wanted to train that. Like,
I don't think I smell or taste necessarily a lot
better than the average person. I think that that can
come with practice. I think being able to translate that

(42:51):
to specific things that are relatable to people, because taste
is subjective, right, Like I might like something that you don't, Yeah, right,
Like like I don't like cucumbers.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Really right, I don't love cucumbers, but I don't hate
them at all. I'm pretty you know, agnostic.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
A lot of people love cucumbers great. But you know,
so it's kind of like, how do I How am
I translating things to things that people will like understand
where maybe they can get a sense of what I'm experiencing.
And it's really just less about like, oh am I
getting this right? And more about am I writing down

(43:26):
things in such a way that it's getting across what
I'm experiencing, And like there are correct and incorrect things,
right Like bourbon, you're going to taste a lot of vanilla.
That's just the science mind it, because they have these
certain compounds that get into the liquid, like you know
what I mean, And like you know, for a sherry
cask aged scotch, you're going to get certain flavors that

(43:48):
they are, right, they are flavors you're you're probably gonna get.
But I like to think of it more as am
I accurately conveying what I'm experiencing such that someone might
be able to put themselves in my shoes when reading
the article, and they might get something very different, or

(44:08):
they might get things significantly different if they were to
go taste the spirit themselves. And hopefully they will and
they can compare right, and sometimes those things will sink up.
Sometimes they won't. But I'm trying to really do I
think all that I can all that I can honestly do,
which is give an accurate representation of what I experience.
And it's just practice. It's like anything else. It's like,

(44:32):
you know, I don't write music, but like if you
were to ask me, how do I do that? Or
like I wouldn't know where to start. It seems so intimidating,
But you learn and you practice and repetition, etc.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
Etc.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
To where I can I can kind of switch it
on and I'm like, cool, I'm now writing tasting notes,
like I'm in that mode.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
That makes sense to me. It just it is so
OPI to me, I guess this is the best way
to say it.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
But I mean I I get it. I mean I
get where you're coming from when I when I read
those reviews. But I would have to do a lot
of work to be able to to pull those notes
out of it myself, for sure.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
It is the thing is I will say, it is
a lot of work, Like I will spend certain reviews,
I will spend hours on like not our hours hours. Yeah,
so it's not just like taste a whiskey, that's what
I taste like. Sometimes you're like you're spending time with it,
and it can it can it can often feel a

(45:38):
little bit grueling. Actually, and again I don't I joke,
and it's true. I don't get paid to drink whiskey.
I get paid to write a thousand words. Yeah, after
I drink the whiskey, right, Like, I'm not getting paid
drink the whiskey. I'm paying to do stuff after I
drink the whiskey.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
That's that's the thing that has that carries value to
to whoever's paying you.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
Is yes, yeah, that makes sense. Have you ever had.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Any kind of uh like backlash or negative feedback from
reviews that you're given that we're not.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
As positive as people were expecting.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I don't want to name.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
No, I wouldn't. I would never ask that.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
One thing I will say is that I think the
spirits industry, and I speak for spirits. I speak for like,
for whiskey, agave spirits, rum, vodka, gin brandies. I speak
for spirits, not wine. I don't do much work in wine.

(46:44):
I've done a little bit, I don't do a lot.
It's a very different world. So I'm not saying it's
good or bad. I just can't speak as accurately to
that in spirits, whether you're on the whether you're making spirits,
or whether you're on the corporate side, or whether you're
on the media side. There's a pretty good understanding that
every distillery, like let's take a Let's take a bourbon

(47:05):
distillery for example. Let's take a distillary that makes bourbon.
That distillery will make really good bourbon. It will also
make some okay bourbon, and it will also make some
bad bourbon. Now, those ratios might differ from one place
to the next, but there is not a distiller, there's

(47:25):
not an experience distiller in the world who will tell
you that everything they make is the exact same quality level.
Because there is so much variation when it comes to
things like the cask type, aging environment, like the temperature,
the ambient temperature outside during fermentation, that if impact, Like

(47:46):
all these are thousand different factors, right that could impact
the ultimate flavor of spirit And so you know, ultimately
you are curating every particular release. But like, if you
go to a warehouse that has twenty thousand barrels, I
guarantee you it'll be some you like, and I guarantee
you there'll be some you don't like. And that is
there's a lot of space in between. Yeah, And because

(48:09):
of that, I think there's a general kindness and understanding
in the spirit space that not everything is for everyone
and not everything is the best product in the world.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, I could see how that would be the case. Well,
I mean there's so many different so many different industries
where you produce a product at multiple price points too,
you know that makes sense. Actually sort of makes me
think about something that was laughing at.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
It made me laugh the other day.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
I was thinking about all the TV movies and TV
shows and movies that I've seen over the years where
somebody goes into a bar and orders a drink, and
the way they order the drink and they say, give
me a Scotch, give me a bourbon. It's like, how
the fuck do they know what they're getting?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Just listen. There's a time in place sometimes you're just like,
give me a It's oftentimes if you notice people are like,
it's they're often coming up from like a very frustrating
scene and they sit down there like, give me a scotch,
you know what I mean? Yeah, but that would Yeah,
that's like my nightmare because then I'd be like, well,

(49:17):
what did you give me? Why did you give me that? Like,
what did you what?

Speaker 1 (49:21):
I was like, Yeah, what was your read on me
that made you decide that was the thing to give me?

Speaker 3 (49:27):
Yeah, that's funny, that's funny.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Can we take a few minutes and talk about what
might be a way in for somebody who's interested in
tasting developing a taste for whiskey bourbon?

Speaker 2 (49:48):
For sure? I think the best thing is to taste
with people, is to taste with other people. I think
that it is not it's easier said than done. Right,
live in areas where there's not a big whiskey community, right, like,
for example, even in the US. Take this as an example.
I know people who are really into scotch and they

(50:09):
live in an area where the predominant whiskey community is bourbon. Right,
Nothing wrong with that? It just is what it is.
And I know people vice versa. I know a lot
of people who are like, oh, you know, I really
love scott or I love bourbon, but like most of
the people around me are Scots shrinkers, right, And I

(50:30):
think the best thing one can do is find a
community of people who also enjoy whiskey or the spirit
that you enjoy or you want to learn more about.
And if that community isn't already established, build it yourself,
Like find a friend who wants to go on that
journey with you. And tasting things with people and talking
about what you're tasting is I think the most fun part.

(50:52):
It's something I do regularly. Like I am a quote
unquote professional, but I still regularly have people over to
my home or go over to buddies homes and we
all bring bottles do like we call them bottle shares,
and we're like tasting the same stuff and we're just
talking about it, like what are you tasting on this?

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (51:06):
What do you compare this to? Like, you know, this
is a product that's you know from this is a
gym Beam product, how does this product compare to their
other products? And honestly, just having conversations around what you're
tasting is the best way to learn because if you're
in conversation with someone else, you're going to come to
some interesting conclusions and you're gonna find you're gonna you're
gonna learn something about the spirit.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
That makes sense, that makes sense to me. Yeah, And
like if particularly if you, I guess, if you know
generally what you like, and I think that there's I
think there's maybe been an Internet ban on the on
the phrase flavor profile, or at least there should be, But.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
I I don't hate flavor actually like that that's the term. Yeah,
I'm okay with that, You're okay with it, But that's
just me. That's just me.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
But if you know that you that that you like,
you're like you're a little sweeter, You're like, you're a
little smokier, you like liquor a little a little darker,
a little lighter, a little fruitier or whatever I suppose
there pass in. But how do you I guess you
would never know if you if there are things that
you had not experienced before that don't fit those profiles

(52:22):
unless you and that you happen to end up liking,
unless you just try them, Unless you can.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
You can, I think too. The thing reason I like
drinking with people is it oftentimes helps bust your own stereotypes.
For example, like the number of bourbon drinkers that find
out they love peeded scotch, and not all scotch is
peeded by the way, right people think sometimes they think
in America, we think scotch equals smoking. No, that's not. Like.

(52:48):
We can taste some things that are delightfully light and
fruity and taste like, you know, the best bite of
papaya you've ever had, right, and like that's in the
world of scotch. But the number of bourbon drinkers feel like,
I don't like smoky stuff, and then they drink with
people and it's like, Okay, well you didn't like that.
What did you have that with smoky that you didn't like? Okay,

(53:09):
what's the context you had it in? Did you have
it right after you had a bourbon because that might
be like extra jarring, right, But maybe like this, maybe
this is this is actually a pede in scotch, but
it's in a very different flavor category or flavor profile.
So I think that Listen, sometimes you're just not gonna
like stuff right, Like, I have a buddy who has

(53:30):
a great palette. He's a he's a big bourbon drinker,
and he doesn't like rye whiskey, so he prefers bourbons
with a low with he prefers whiskey with low rye
content or.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
No rye interest, right.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
And most bourbon in the US has some rye in it.
It's it's it's a flavoringingrain. It adds a little bit
of it adds a little bit of something something to
a lot of bourbon. There's also bourbon with no rye,
but as the rye content increases, he tends he tends
to like the spirit less. And this is a tried
everything under the sun, and that's just what he likes

(54:03):
and doesn't like.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
But I think flavors often contextual, not always, but often contextual,
And what you like in a certain setting might be
different than what you like in a different setting. And
I think that's why it's so fun to be in
conversation with these things and be in conversation with people
about them.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Do do you find that people have different people have
a fallow in a different points in the spectrum of
being able to like if they're tasting, being able to
sort of put the last thing aside and clear their
palate enough to move on to the next thing.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
No one's as good at that as they want, as
they they like, as they want to be, not as
they think they're but as they want to be. It's tough,
and your your palette fatigues is a real thing.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, it is. Yeah, I just.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Sometimes it's sometimes it's easy, like and I'm and I've
I think I've tasted more beers in beer flights then
I have have whiskeys, and I think you're maybe not
as conscious of.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Trying to clear your palate in between. There's like, oh,
it's take a little this, a little bit of that, whatever.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
And it's often that kind of the second time around
when you come back to it, that you have a
different feeling about it and you might actually like.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
It better than the first time. Yeah, And I don't
know why that is exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
There's just something necessarily something about it that that rises
and part of it has has been sitting there longer,
and so it opens up a little bit and it's
a little friendlier.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
It's also like if we don't know what to expect,
if what we try. And sometimes if we try something,
if it's very different than what we're expecting, it can
be an unpleasant experience. Sometimes it can be a pleasant experience.
But if our expectations are a little more tempered, sometimes
we can enjoy it more. Right, Like if you give
a bourbon again to use a smoke example, if you

(55:57):
give a bourbon drink or something try this and they
are a too to bourbon and they try something that's
a heavily peded scotch, it they might not love it, right,
But if they know going in it's like, hey, I
actually would love to try you on some impeded scotches
And if they're open to would you be open to that? Right?
And it's like okay, they might go in with a

(56:19):
more open mind and it's not going to be this
like this odd juxtaposition between what they expected and what
they got. The two things might be more in line
or more sympatic or more SYMPATICO.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
What's your feeling on investing in Like I'm not necessarily
calling out for for for suggestions, this is not a
fantasy football, but what is your feeling about that?

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Is that? Is that something that.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
That is worthwhile and only at certain levels, or is
it not worthwhile at all?

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Or I think that is. I do not give investment
advice or really make much commentary on investing in spirits.
Spirits are consumable, they are perishable. Yeah, the market is unpredictable. Yeah,
proceed at your own risk.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
I mean people everybody's always pursuing the the undervalued asset, right,
I mean, and they want to capitalize on an undervalued
asset and then eventually flip it to somebody at some point.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
And I think we're seeing a softening right now of
the risky market. I don't think it's going to stay
that way forever. I think these thinks ebb and flow right,
but proceed, proceed with caution, do your research.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
Actually, that's a that's just kind of sort of my
final question in the spirits.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
Area here, what what is your gut on on the
market in general for spirits in the US.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
My really, my good friend Isaac Winter, who's the master
blender of High West, said it well, and he said
he thinks we're in an overhang where production has outstripped demand.
And I think that the spirit's market is I do think.
I'm not I'm not bearish on it, but I think
that we are going through a market correction such that

(58:19):
maybe COVID was not the best indicator of long term Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Yeah, it's like housing, same same story with housing, I think, Yeah, yeah,
that sort of makes sense. Well, David, I want to
thank you very much. I enjoy every conversation with you,
but recording them and sharing with other them with others
helps me keep the show going to be.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
I know you did.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
You did Barbin on your own for quite a while,
and so you understand the whole dynamic of keeping a
show going largely by yourself.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
But I do understand, and I ampathy and I listen.
I love that I was a fan of your podcasting
before I was your friend, and it's an honor to
be on here, and I so appreciate you having me,
and I hope people enjoy this conversation as much as
I've enjoyed talking to you.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
Jim awesome. How can people find you, David?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
You can find me on Instagram at David Thomas twe
You can find me on x at d underscore tow. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Those are great, excellent. I was you ever noticed it?

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Like authors and and and serial killers.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Three names.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Well, you know, I'm not gonna say which I am.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
But I know it's I totally get it, all right.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Well, thanks a lot, David,