July 9, 2025 • 38 mins
Artists Rachel Mindrup, MFA, and Tuyet-Minh Tran, MD, discuss their artwork that was featured on the cover of Academic Medicine. They explore the inspiration and creative process behind their pieces and how medicine has influenced their art and how art has influenced how they experience medicine. They also reflect on the role of the arts and humanities in medicine and medical education and how art can foster reflection and perspective taking in physicians.
Check out the artwork discussed, read the artists’ accompanying essays, and access the episode transcript at academicmedicineblog.org.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Academic MedicinePodcast. I'm Toni Gallo.
Since 2008,
each issue of Academic Medicine hasfeatured original artwork on the cover
and an accompanying essay exploring theorigins and the inspirations for the
piece.
Artists whose work has been featuredinclude medical students and residents,
(00:24):
educators, clinicians, patients,and caregivers. On today's episode,
I'm joined by two artists whose workhas appeared on the cover of Academic
Medicine.
Rachel Mindrup's oilpainting "Ill-Fitting" is featured on the August 2023
cover and her aquatint etching"The Wristband" is featured on the
June 2025 cover and Dr.Tuyet-Minh Tran's paper quilling
(00:47):
piece "An Ode to AnatomicalDonors" is featured on the May 2025
cover. In our conversation today,
we'll talk about Rachel's and Tuyet-Min'sartwork and their experience blending
art and medicine.
We'll also talk more broadly aboutthe role of the arts and humanities in
medicine and medical education.So to start our conversation,
(01:08):
I'm going to ask each of you to introduceyourself for our listeners and also to
tell us a little bit more about theartwork that you've published in Academic
Medicine. So describe it forus. What medium did you use?
How did you create it, and what was theinspiration? Rachel, you want to start?
Sure. My name's Rachel Mindrip.
(01:28):
I'm an associate professor and theDr. Deming Endowed Chair in Medical
Humanities at Creighton University.
I was lucky enough to be able tohave two of my pieces on the covers,
as Toni mentioned. Just to give alittle background to each of them,
both of the pieces have to do with myson and his kind of journey living with
neurofibromatosis, which is an incurableand progressive genetic disorder.
(01:51):
It causes tumors to grow anywhere in oron the body. It's very unpredictable.
There's no cure right now. Of course,
there are plenty of groups and peopletrying to help kind of change that,
of course. But as far as the two pieces,
it's kind of interestingbecause they're very sequential.
The piece that was shown firstwas an oil painting called,
it's called "Ill-Fitting," mostlybecause the painting depicted my son in
(02:15):
the dressing gown that Itried to help put him in. I
quite rather unsuccessfully tried to puthim in because in the painting you'll
notice that it doesn't fit him.
And I obviously didn't know whatI was doing with the medical gown.
And sometimes those gowns, they haveso many straps and cords and things,
and you're not sometimes quitesure how to actually put them on,
(02:36):
or do they open in the front or in theback. And this one was pretty threadbare.
And so when I got done with it, hewas turned around. So I had him,
I'm looking at his back and he said,well, he goes, is it on right, mom?
Is this right? And it lookedterrible. So I was like,
and this was before he went in for hismeeting with the neurosurgeon for brain
(03:00):
surgery. But when I said,well, it is what it is,
I don't know what I'm doing.But in that moment,
the light was coming downfrom the examination room,
and it was sort of illuminating him insuch a way that I actually thought it
was, I thought it was quite beautiful.
And so I actually wanted to capture thatmoment in oil and as an oil painting.
So it really is just that picture ofmy son asking me if everything is okay.
(03:24):
It wasn't. But anyway, soI tried to, like I said,
capture that moment and with thelight. And then, like I said,
I kind of did thatbefore his brain surgery.
But then the other aquatint etchingthat I did that's on this month's issue
is that wristband. AndI know so many people,
obviously everyone who's in medicineknows to take off all the jewelry,
(03:47):
just take all of that stuff off.
And so trying to be thethoughtful mother that I am,
I try to do all this stuff, andI actually forgot of all things.
I actually forgot his wristbandthat actually says End NF on it.
And only after his brain surgery whenhe came out and he had all these other
tubes and cords and all this stuff thatyou obviously have to put on, it's like,
I saw that wristband and I was like Ican't believe I forgot the wristband.
(04:11):
So anyway, that's kind of thestory of at least both of those.
So one kind of event that led intotwo different kind of depictions.
Why did you choose the mediumsthat you did for these two pieces?
Well, first off, I should havementioned too that, I mean,
I love oil painting andI love printmaking. So that's always the decision,
am I going to draw and am I going topaint? Am I going to do printmaking?
(04:34):
What lends itself to these?
So with Henry's situation before going in,
like I said, just the way the light wascoming down on him and just my view of,
like I said, how I really horriblytied that gown, which I think,
and anyone now looking at thatpainting's going to be like, yeah,
she did a pretty bad job there.
But that one to me just sort of lentitself with the light and with the colors.
(04:57):
And even the colors on thatgown itself kind of lent color.
I thought those muted greens andblues and stuff would make for a nice
oil painting.
Printmaking and etching in particularis a laborious and talio process. It's
very method based, so you'vegot to do this before,
you can do that before.
(05:18):
And so you've got to keep dipping thisplate in acid and then stopping out where
you don't want things to etchanymore and all of this stuff.
So you kind of keep doing allof this and all these layers.
So when I saw Henry's wristband likethat and all the layers of cords and all
the intricacies and all the sort of,
I don't want to saythe minutiae of it all,
it's like that looks like somethingthat would also be captured in a
(05:42):
process that is just as technicallyprocess oriented ... layers ...
You have to get ...
aquatints and etchings you kind ofhave to get all that right or you'll
accidentally over etch oryou'll kind of mess it up.
And I have years of experiencemessing up etchings and aquatint.
So with that, I thought toothat if I do mess this up,
(06:03):
there's a little wiggle room ofspontaneity that could have acid wherever,
because what isn't such a,well, I shouldn't say this,
but I don't say unperfectkind of thing. Things happen.
Stuff happens that you didn'texpect. I'm just a caregiver,
but I am sure Tuyet can explainsome of the things that she's seen.
For sure.
(06:23):
That's why I thought the etching and theaquatint was kind of a perfect medium
for that experience.
Tuyet-Minn, you want to tell usabout your paper quilling piece,
which I think probably also requires lotsof very careful steps in creating it.
Yeah. Well, my name is Tuyet-Minh.
I just graduated from the School ofMedicine at the University of Virginia,
(06:43):
and I'll be starting my residencyin ophthalmology this summer.
The piece that I submitted is called"An Ode to Anatomical Donors," and it's
made with paper quilling.
This is an art form that usesreally thin strips of paper,
maybe a millimeter thick and maybe likethree to four millimeters high depending
on the paper you're using. So long stripof paper that you roll into a coil,
(07:04):
almost kind of like aroll of toilet paper,
and then you can pinch that coil intodifferent shapes and glue it down onto
base, a base to create a bigger image.
And so I made this piece mainlybecause it was a required assignment.
We were asked to reflect onour experiences in anatomy lab and paper quilling
has just kind of been mything for the past few years,
(07:24):
but it felt really fitting for thisassignment because anatomy is a process of
dissection. We're takingthe whole body apart,
and I feel like sometimes in that process,
you lose who the person is as a whole.
And so I thought it'd be symbolic in away to use paper quilling to take all
these tiny strips of papers that almostmimic the fibers of the muscle and to
now put the body back togetherthat I'd taken apart in anatomy.
(07:48):
So what kind of paper didyou use or did you collect?
Is this paper that you found in theanatomy lab or something that you're like,
oh, grab that and quill it,
or where'd you get thepaper and how'd you decide?
Yeah, I wish it were that symbolic,
but it's literally a kit my parentsbought for me on Amazon when I first got
into paper quilling.
I think it has to be a certain type ofthickness to be able to maintain its
(08:11):
rigidity while still being able to rollup and not have all these bends and
kinks in the paper. But I used up allmy different tones of reds for this.
I thought it'd be a nice silhouettebecause for those who haven't seen the
piece,
it's basically a silhouette of all themuscles of the back with also a little
bit of the face peeking out.
So I feel like it highlights some ofthe anatomy of the body while still
maintaining some of the humanity inthe body with that piece of the face
(08:34):
sticking out.
Yeah, it's great. Well, nowthat you ran out of the paper,
how are you going to do the othersections of the body in paper quilling?
Is that what's next with this?Curious minds want to know.
We've seen this now and we want more.
That's a great question.
Basically staying away from anythingthat involves the red muscles.
(08:54):
I actually paper quilled a set of threepieces for one of the doctors who wrote
me a letter of recommendationfor residency. Luckily, she's an ophthalmologist,
so I used up some of my last strips ofred for the muscles that go around the
eye. And then I did a fun one ofthe iris and then one of the retina,
so that nerve layer atthe back of the eye,
but I have to buy another kitat this point for the reds.
(09:16):
I was going to say, are wegoing to be able to see those?
I was just curious if we were going tosee some eyes that are done in paper
quilling.
I would love to submit some,
so I made sure to take some good picturesof the pieces before I gifted it away.
Yeah, I look forward to seeing those too.
You mentioned this is somethingyou started as an undergraduate,
and how has that connection with,
(09:36):
particularly as you're thinking aboutanatomy and how has that shaped your
experience as a medical studentand now as you go into residency,
do you think this is somethingthat you'll continue?
Definitely something I'll continue.
I think art is really nice becausesometimes it can be literal,
but other times it has an element ofsubjectivity and you start to think about
(09:58):
your process before you put it onto paper.
And so art has been a way for meto translate the literal things I
do in life and kind ofput some thought into it,
into how medicine impacts not only me,but also the patient, also their family,
also their caregivers, and thenetwork that they exist in.
And also me as a physician,but also as a person.
(10:20):
So kind of just being able to useart as a form to reflect on my
experiences.
Well, and you mentionedthat this was actually,
the genesis was from anassignment. So it seems like,
so you were given the option of whetherto maybe write a reflection or to
portray these thoughts throughartistic medium. Is that correct?
Yes, that's correct. Basically,the world was our oyster.
(10:43):
We could have done whatever we wanted,
and I just thought paperquilling was fitting,
the strips of paper almost mimickedthe muscle layers you see. And again,
just that symbolism of, hey, wetook the body apart in anatomy.
Let's put it all backtogether with this piece.
How big is your piece?What are the dimensions?
I think the piece of paper that it'smounted on is six by six, so the ...
(11:06):
six by six inches. So the quillingitself ... yeah, not six feet.
I was like, you'redoing a life size. Okay.
Yeah, no, no, no, no. Thatwould've taken forever.
You'd still be working on it right now.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, so that's really small andintimate then. Yeah, really detailed,
which I feel like lends itself tomimicking parts of the body with all the
(11:29):
detail, the nerves, thedifferent fascial layers.
There's so much complexity to the body.Yeah, very cool.
And Rachel, what about you?
Your role teaching art to medicalstudents or incorporating art into
the medical curriculum.
Can you tell us a little bit about thatand then maybe how that's affected your
own art?
Yeah, there's a nicerelationship with both.
(11:50):
I get the privilege to work with firstand second year students in Creighton
School of Medicine doing some of thesimilar things that Tuyet was talking
about, but at least at Creighton,
we've got the humanities sort ofwoven in to those first two years,
which is kind of nice.
So I've been lucky enough to get toactually work directly with the students
with different projects like that.Nothing, maybe not paper quilling,
(12:13):
haven't gotten to do that.
But I'm also able to bring exhibitionsto Creighton that have that nice
relationship of medicalhumanities. So over the years,
we've been able to bring exhibitions ofjust different artists who work in that
intersection of medical humanities.
A couple of years ago webrought in Jeff Hanson.
He was a legally blind artist who had NF,
(12:34):
but he was creating paintings by feelwith all these textures and everything.
Even with that, what we call orthink of as perhaps a limitation,
didn't really stop him.
His paintings were absolutelyamazing and gorgeous and wonderful,
and he was able to sell 'em at thesedifferent gala events and stuff.
So by the time he was 20 years old,
he had already raised amillion dollars for charity,
(12:54):
and so his goal was to raise $10 millionfor charity by the time he turned 30,
but he passed away because of his NF, sohis brain tumors had a different plan.
So I brought in his parents who werecontinuing that legacy. What was fun was,
besides bringing in his artwork,and we work with our undergrads too,
so our undergrad students and our medstudents will work together and stuff,
(13:17):
but they worked with the Hansons andactually created Jeff Hanson inspired
artwork,
having to try and figure out how tomake artwork if you were also visually
impaired. And we did that. We hadEileen Powers work with our students.
She was an artist out inBoston who had leukemia,
so she had lost her hair just fromall the different chemotherapy.
(13:38):
And at the time, she said for her,when you're going through chemotherapy,
everybody wants to help,
and the best way we know howto help is to give people food.
And so she said her freezer wasstuffed, so at some point, no more food.
So she had come up with this,
can you make hair for me kindof project and not like literal
wigs, don't really make hair forme. But she wanted everybody just,
(14:01):
if you can find stuff aroundthe house, it could be noodles,
it could be some Velcro youhave laying around, film strips,
just what's kind of stuff that you take,you don't even realize that you have,
and could you make some sort of hair outof that? Our med students made hair for
Eileen, so they broughtstuff from home. I mean,
(14:21):
some of it was tinfoil.One med student brought,
she brought nuts and bolts, which Ithought was really funny and these cords.
And then she told me later that she didn'trealize that her dad did not want her
cutting up all these cordsand taking all the bolts,
but she made this really cool "hair" thatthen we shipped all this work back to
Eileen, and she took photos of it.Then we had an exhibition of her work,
(14:43):
but it was all the "hair" thatthe Creighton students had made,
and when we do this stuff,
then of course Eileen was on Zoom talkingwith our students the whole time about
what it's like to actually go throughchemo and a nice time to actually ...
and I think med students have such a ...
I don't want to say anadvantage a little bit,
because they can actually spend a littlebit more time sometimes with patients.
(15:06):
That's just my opinion. Imean, I'm just a caregiver,
but it just seems like med studentssometimes do get to have a little bit more
time so they can actually have thesemeaningful conversations. So for Eileen,
she's talking with the different medstudents while they're making the hair for
her,
but they're having these nice organicconversations about what is life actually
when you're living withcancer. So like I said,
(15:26):
we've just been able tohave some really, I think,
impactful medical humanitythemed exhibitions that both our undergrads and our
med students, I mean, they just remember,
it's hard to not remember that impactof either making hair or like I said,
and that's just two of 'em. I'vebeen doing this for a while,
so I won't take over the wholepodcast with all the stuff we've done,
(15:48):
but I try to keep it something thatwill be really engaging for the medical
students to help put themselves insomeone else's shoes if possible.
I find it so interesting that you referto yourself as "just" a caregiver.
I feel like that's actually themost important perspective to have.
You get to see the ins andout of a person's life, whereas on the medical team,
(16:08):
sometimes we're just therefor a glimpse of things,
and it's really the context that peoplelive in that really affects them the
most.
Oh gosh. I dunno. Like Isaid, well, all of you,
the med students and thephysicians, and I mean,
I am just grateful you guysare, we need you. So yeah,
I just represent the public here,the caregiver, but it's like, no,
(16:31):
we so need you guys. Yeah, I'm just sograteful and stuff. And like I said,
I really am just a caregiver. I canonly give those perspectives. I mean,
I am not jumping in trying to figureout the diagnosis and figure out ...
that's what ... all of usare so ... like I said,
we're all just grateful for everybodyin the health fields too. I mean,
when it comes to my son's surgery, Iam grateful to everybody, of course,
(16:55):
the neurosurgeon, but the nurses,all of the people coming in,
oh my goodness, which for brain surgery,
it's like 20 peoplelater. It's like, wait,
what's your role? There's all thesepeople coming together like a huge
interdisciplinary team tobasically make sure my son
is going to be fine. So yeah,
(17:16):
I just always operate outof a realm of gratitude.
But some of mine are, and really, sothe artwork too, the ones on the cover,
it's like that's really a caregiver'sperspective. I bet anything,
if you asked some of the people on Henry'steam, what artwork would they make?
I am sure they'd come up with acompletely different type of visual.
(17:39):
So that's kind of funny. I didn't knowI was referring as just a caregiver,
but I just want to make sureeverybody knows I am not a physician.
I'm not qualified to be giving anysort of advice in that sort of way.
But yeah, as a mom with a kid withan incurable genetic disorder,
we've definitely spent sometime in various hospital
(17:59):
settings and clinics.
I think that's the beauty of artwork too,
is that it calls all of those differentperspectives into play at different
times because sometimes what somebodysees through the lens of a caregiver or a
parent is very different from whatthe people in the medical team are
seeing. And I don't think eitheris more important than the other.
It's sometimes a nice reality check toremember exactly what it is that you're
(18:23):
dealing with, which isa life and a person.
And I think both what you've said heretoday and also the art that you are
talking about brings outthat this is a person,
not just a disease,
and whether it's ananatomical donor or a patient,
how do you think thatrole of art in sort of
(18:45):
centering the patient as aperson as opposed to just
treating a disease,
either from an educator perspectiveor a learner perspective,
can you maybe reflect on that alittle bit of how art can uniquely do
that?
Well, I would say atleast with visual artwork,
(19:05):
but this could be applied to poetryor novels or anything like that.
But I mean, you do actually invitethe viewer to just simply pause.
I mean, think of how we're alwaysgoing. We've got a million things to do,
all this stuff, but I mean, when youstop to look at a piece of artwork, well,
you really are just actually pausing.
You're actually stopping to lookat it for a moment and linger.
(19:28):
And so it's like, well, of course thenyou're kind of wondering, what is this?
Then maybe who is this? Or what is thisabout? What's going on in this picture?
Why was this even created? I mean, allof those questions are kind of going on,
and I just think art, especiallywhen it comes to healthcare,
I think sometimes visual art cansort of break down, honestly,
some of the complexities going on intoa digestible format for the rest of
(19:51):
us to ponder and consider.
Yeah, I think my piece startedout as a very technical piece.
I was deliberate about thesilhouette, but as a piece itself,
it's a bunch of muscles there.But I think, like Rachel said,
it's about that pause and how the viewerinterprets it that's really powerful.
And so a lot of times when peoplehave taken a look at the piece I made,
(20:13):
they're like, wow, this looks sointricate. Look at all the little coils.
And it's like, yes, this is art, but alsothe human body is just that intricate.
You have these tiny nerves just coursingbetween muscles and all the pieces of
the spine and how the fasciaconnect things together.
And so the intention ofthe people making the art
portrays one thing,
but a lot of the time the beauty is inthe eye of the beholder and how they
(20:36):
interpret the piece of art itself.
And what do you think on theother side of being the viewer,
whether personally or justsort of physicians in general,
what that experience is likeand how it can sort of help you?
We had an episode about the medicalhumanities last year where the guests
(20:56):
talked about learners will come intoa healthcare system that is not ideal,
that maybe they wish could be better,
and the art can help them process allof that. What are they experiencing?
What is their place in thegreater world of medicine?
How do you think about all ofthat being a viewer of art?
Well, again, I think it dependson the different pieces,
(21:19):
but a lot of times it kind oflets you know you're not alone.
So sometimes you have these feelings,depends on what your experiences are.
I think all of us at some pointhave been a patient as well.
So I feel like all of us have had that.
But sometimes you can look at a piece ofartwork and it's like, oh, okay, yeah,
I've been there. I actually know exactlywhat that, so the way somebody, just,
(21:40):
the way they create a sceneand it's like even with ...
I shared that Henry hasNF and that kind of stuff.
I'm not sure you need to have NFto look at my artwork to say that
you kind of know what's going on,you understand the feelings I had,
but you don't need to suddenly haveyour PhD and all the intricacies of
(22:01):
neurofibromatosis to look at thework and feel like you understand,
or same with Tuyet's piece.
You don't have to be a master of anatomyto look at her work and appreciate that
and think about it and thatsort of thing. So for me,
a lot of times it's just that ideaas an onlooker that you're not alone.
This is kind of a shared,
maybe a bit of a shared experienceabout the human condition.
(22:23):
I think for me, with artwork also,
it kind of challenges my own perspectiveon things. So for example, Rachel,
with your piece "Ill-Fitting"depicting the gown.
Sometimes for me when I'm helping apatient take off their gown, I'm like,
why are these straps so annoying.Why are they always tangled up?
Why is this gown alwaysin the way? And of course,
it shouldn't be that way to fallinto that pitfall of thinking,
(22:45):
but for other people,
that gown is something that's coveringup a patient's body day in, day out.
It's a loss of their ability to weartheir favorite clothing, their shorts,
they're kind of stuck to the bed.
And so it's just a nicecall to think about how your
perspective isn't the only one andhow there's so many different parties
involved, especially in the careof a patient and a person overall.
(23:08):
Yeah, I really like that.
Have you all had conversations with othersabout either the pieces we're talking
about here or other art that you'vedone and what it means to them,
what it means to you?
What's represented and itsconnection to medicine?
Well, I certainly have,
so besides the two pieces I was talkingabout with my son that appeared on the
(23:31):
covers, in addition to that,
I've been painting portraits of peoplewho live with neurofibromatosis for about
15 years. Most of my work isgoing to be portraits of people.
So I have lots ofconversations. Of course,
I'm very lucky to get to meetall sorts of different people.
But it's kind of fun too,because in one sense,
the genetic disorder is what kindof unites us all with this project.
(23:51):
But when you look at thepaintings, it's like, well,
their paintings are usually each personis just doing what he or she enjoys
doing. So when you look at mypaintings, it's like, oh, well,
this person's baking a cakeand this person's whatever,
watching birds or whatever theirpersonalities are. So I mean,
we have a lot of conversations aboutbasically you are who you are, and then,
oh, by the way, you also have NF.But in those paintings it's like, well,
(24:15):
whoever you are or whateveryour interest is is forefront.
And then the genetic disorderstakes a backseat to that. So yeah,
so as far as other artwork, I'veobviously been doing a lot of that.
And then like I said, it just with Henry,
then I get to do or I tend to do thingsthat are a little bit more personal.
So those are probably a little bit moreme showing what I'm thinking as a mom,
(24:39):
whereas the others are muchmore outward facing portraits.
And those really are also just to raiseawareness about neurofibromatosis.
I'm not sure, I know many of us,
and many of the people who probably arelistening to the podcast are familiar
with NF, but a lot of peoplein the general public just,
they just aren't surewhat you're talking about.
(24:59):
So the portraits have always been reallya good way for me to raise awareness
about the genetic disorder and actuallyshow that there's no face to it.
So that's always the irony is I'm aportrait painter who's trying to show you
what NF looks like,
and there's no actual face to the disorderbecause it presents differently from
person to person.
It's interesting. I feel like myartwork is a lot more literal,
(25:20):
and sometimes it's not quite thatthought provoking on the surface,
but I feel like most of the conversationsI've had about my pieces are usually
about how delicate they are, thesmall scale, and they're like, oh,
is this why you wanted to pursueophthalmology? And in a sense, it was,
I really like small detailedsurgeries rather than the big scale
ones. And so that connected ina sense. But I feel like for me,
(25:43):
art is a really nice way to sustain thatinterest with the hand skills in a way
that's still a hobby that'sstill fun for me on the side.
You mentioned when we were talkingearlier that this piece took you about as
long to create as the backdissection actually took.
Yes. Yeah. So the piece I made,
the "Ode to Anatomical Donors," thattook about 25 hours to put together again
(26:07):
for that six inch by six inch piece.
And I went back after I made the pieceand I calculated how much time we spent
in anatomy lab for all themusculoskeletal system,
and it was about that long.So just a fun parallel, again,
just how intricate the artwork is andjust how intricate it is to take apart the
body and really understand it.
(26:27):
Well, as a fellow artist,
I so appreciate that becauseI think sometimes the best,
most beautiful artwork are thesesmall, intimate little things.
It's like when you go tothe art museum sometimes.
Sometimes people will just run and rundown the hall and go to the biggest
painting they can find and stare at it,
and it's like you might've just ran pasta whole bunch of little miniatures or
(26:50):
little etchings or little drawings onyour way to run to this big painting or
something. So as an artist, I appreciate... sometimes I just appreciate ...
and then just the time, I totallybelieve that that took that long. I mean,
there's no way you can look at that pieceand not know that that took some major
time to do that.
Speaking of detail, I raninto this artist in Portland.
(27:12):
Her name is Sienna Art Studios,
and she basically puts together thesepieces that are just equations written
again and again, and then it forms thebigger piece of art. So for example,
she had a piece of I think the eye,
and it was written with all of theequations for the optics of the lens and
vision. She has one of the kidneys, thebrain, all sorts of stuff in nature too.
(27:32):
So I think it's sometimes that detailednitty gritty that makes your picture,
that's just so fascinating.
Oh, yeah, I know that I wouldfind that cool. For sure.
I just appreciate sometimesjust for me too, the intimate,
so the fact that your piece isonly six inches by six inches,
but you have to actually really stopand really look at that and see all the
(27:52):
time and the energy into thislittle intimate piece. Yeah,
I say that having ... as the ladywho just made the 30 what ...
36 by 48 into oilpainting, but I really do,
and sometimes I have toactually tell my students too.
I think sometimes they think thatthey've got to make big, big stuff,
make big paintings, and it's like, no,
you don't have to alwaysmake big paintings.
(28:14):
You can make a beautiful statementabout whatever it is you want to say,
but sometimes you can make a beautiful,nice, intimate little statement.
So sometimes I have to convince him.
Sometimes a smaller painting is sometimeswill say what you need it to say.
Sorry, can you tell myteacher thing is on now?
It doesn't always have to be somesix foot painting you guys. Yeah,
(28:34):
sometimes just the best stuff canbe nice and intimate and small.
I thought it was interesting too.
You compared the fine motor skillsbetween the paper quilling technique
and some of the clinical skills.
And that feels like anotherconnection where kind of those small
detailed movements andmotions make a difference.
(28:56):
Yeah, especially with paper quilling,it's such small strips of paper,
and once you bend it into shape, youkind of don't want to mash it around.
So I'm usually using tweezers to kind ofdip each piece into glue and then place
it down really precisely.
I think the toughest ones are when I'mjust gluing down the strips before I've
coiled them up. So again,
maybe a millimeter thick and I'm cuttingit to the precise shape or precise
(29:18):
length that I want, andthen placing it down.
So I knew I always wanted to use my hands,
whatever field I went into in medicine.
And so I thought maybe somebigger surgical subspecialty.
And then I realized I really likedthe teeny tiny, tiny surgeries.
At what point did you decide that?
Where in your educationaljourney did you decide?
(29:41):
I want the small intricate ...
I was always interested in ophthalmologyjust because of my own background,
but I kept an open mind going intomedical school and really tried to explore
other subspecialties. And I rememberdistinctly, it was during a colonoscopy,
they were looking for something, andin the words of the GI doctor, he said,
sometimes we just have to poke arounduntil we find it. And I was like,
(30:04):
I hate that. I just want to beprecise. Want to nail it down pat.
So I think there was some time inmy third year when I was like, yeah,
I think it's actually the small stuffthat I find the most satisfaction in.
That's so interesting.
So my son also sees aneuro-ophthalmologist just because he's got this optic
glioma and stuff. Butwhat's interesting is,
(30:25):
so we've been seeing thisneuro-ophthalmologist ever since he was a baby,
but the other neuro-ophthalmologist thathe works with, I was chatting with her,
so she did one of those, Hey, Igot to talk to you. So she's like,
you're an artist. And I'm like, yeah,she does these eyeball paintings.
So she's also this artistwho's a neuro-ophthalmologist,
and in her free time she's doing theseamazing paintings of eyeballs and stuff.
(30:49):
So now you've got me wondering,
is everybody who's in ophthalmologyor is everybody a visual artist?
There must be a link here. But yeah, shegoes, I love painting eyeballs. Anyway,
and they were really cool. Of coursethey were. But yeah, so I'm like,
maybe there's a link.
It's fun because ophthalmologyis a very visual subspecialty.
(31:11):
You get to look at patient's eyesunder the microscope up to 40
times of magnification.
You can see all the way to theback of the eye through the pupil.
And so I get to look in and see exactlyeverything I need to see just through
the microscope.
I think it's kind of neat.
We're talking a lot about howthe arts and humanities can help
(31:31):
learners learn about themselves and maybewhere they want to go in their career
and also learn about medicine andwhat it's like to be a clinician.
You both talked aboutcourses or curricula at your
institutions.
Are there other things that are happeningin the way that the arts have been
incorporated into medicine or medicaleducation that either is really
(31:55):
neat or where there are still some gapsthat you would love to see addressed?
At least at UVA, we offer acourse called Healers Art,
I think in the firstyear in medical school.
And that's offered at severalmedical schools across the nation.
So it's not just UVA,
but it's basically a course that callsstudents to reflect on their experiences,
(32:16):
not just within thenitty gritty of medicine,
but more so with coping with grieffor the patient and the provider,
with wellness,
with kind of sustaining your own wellbeingas a clinician when all of your life
is kind of dedicated tothe wellbeing of others.
And so I think in this coursethere was less of the visual arts,
but more so written art, prose,self-reflection, journaling.
(32:39):
But that was great in the first year.
And I think UVA does a really good jobof trying to sustain that throughout all
of medical school,
but sometimes it becomes a time constraintwhere you're spending so much time in
clinic and you just have to be a littlebit more deliberate about debriefing
about it.
But I thought UVA did a fantasticjob with it throughout my four years.
Well, just to second that, I do thinkit's much more prevalent and stuff.
(33:02):
I think different universities and schoolsjust around the country and stuff are
all kind of realizing the benefit ofmedical humanities and seeing that it does
indeed have an impact.Creighton, of course,
has the Master's ofMedical Humanities program.
I just feel like there's thisneed for it, obviously. I mean,
a lot of these different institutionsare kind of seeing that the students also
(33:23):
are actually very interested in this,
and some of it is also fortheir preservation and how do they process? I mean,
when I work with med students too, it'slike how do you process some of this?
These are heavy topics and heavy thingsthat they are encountering now and will
encounter as a physician.And in some regards,
we want to make sure there isn't physicianburnout. And so how can we also let
(33:45):
the arts and beyond visualart for sure, poetry writing,
some of these other sort of outlets,
but are we making sure that we arealso preparing our physicians to be
well-rounded full human beings,
not just basically burning outand just after every six minutes
you're running to see another patient.
It's like our physicians are peopletoo who need this and need an outlet.
(34:10):
And I think the medical humanitiesallows that opportunity.
And obviously beyond Creighton,
there is what's called theHealth Humanities Consortium.
So every year rotates fromdifferent universities. Creighton,
our medical school in Phoenix hosted itlast year, but it was at Case Western,
it was at Vanderbilt. Itmoves around the country.
So that's a nice coming togetherof like-minded people all sort of
(34:35):
looking in different waysof how to incorporate the
humanities either into thecurriculum or for their own research.
So I think it's getting more and moresort of, I don't want to say accepted,
but thought of and integrated. Soactually when I started, honestly,
I didn't know I was doing medicalhumanities. So when I started,
(34:56):
I'm not sure there was actuallya term for it. I was like,
maybe that just means I'm old,
but it's like I'm just paintingportraits of people with NF.
I just want to raise awareness. Andthen over the years it's like, okay,
this actually has a term. Andit's just more and more people,
I think are sort of seeing the value ofwhat this is and what it can do and how
it can be helpful, like I said,
in that conference or that consortiumis kind of a nice coming together of
(35:19):
people all over the country and stuff,kind of sharing thoughts and ideas.
Yeah, I agree witheverything you said, Rachel.
I think it's nice that within medicine,
people are starting to actively createspace for the medical humanities.
I know at UVA, there's alsothe Hook Scholars program,
which takes about maybe six studentsa year and they dedicate some time to
creating a project within therealm of medical humanities.
(35:42):
So I think it's just a nice facet ofmedicine that we don't always think about
when we're stuck in the nitty grittyof the kidneys or something like that.
Just something to bring us back to whywe came here and who it is that we care
for.
Yeah, well stated.
So we're just about atthe end of our time.
I want to give you each a chance ifyou have any final thoughts you want to
share,
and if you want to tell listenerswhere else they can find you and your
(36:07):
artwork if they're interested in learningmore. Rachel, you want to go first?
As far as where to find my artwork,feel free to just go to rminddrip.com.
I post everything there. That's justmy website. Or of course, Instagram.
Not quite as savvy on that one. Somaybe just the website's good. But yeah,
(36:28):
you can find me there.And thanks for having me.
I've enjoyed our conversation today.
I'm not as high tech. I don'thave my art in a platform yet,
but I was asked that so many times onthe interview trail that I've started
thinking about putting together somesort of portfolio on a website or
Instagram. But as of right now, youcannot find my artwork on the internet.
But thank you for having me.
(36:50):
Most of the time, the pieces that I'mmaking are gifted to other people,
and so it's not too often that I actuallycreate artwork that I keep for myself,
but I should do a better job ofdocumenting it all. And I think overall,
just getting to do art,
make art is a really nice way forme to reflect on things that I
see in daily life.
(37:11):
Just calls into question the otherperspectives and makes me grow as a person
and a clinician. Sothank you for having me.
Thank you both for being here.
And I want to encourage our listenersto look for the covers that we talked
about today with Rachel'sand Tuyet-Minh's artwork.
The cover art feature ... We have anopen call for artwork every other year,
(37:32):
so in 2026 will be our nextcall. If you are an artist,
please submit your workand we'd love to see it.
Perhaps we'll see some otherpaper quilling eyeballs or other
things. But take a looknext year for that call.
And thank you both again for beinghere. This was a great conversation.
Thanks for having me.Thank you.
From Academic Medicine's website,
(37:54):
you can also access the latestarticles and our archive dating back to
1926,
as well as additional contentincluding article collections.
Subscribe to Academic Medicine throughthe subscription services link under the
journal info tab or visitshop.lww.com and enter
Academic Medicine in the search bar.
(38:15):
Follow us and interact with the journalstaff on LinkedIn at Academic Medicine
Journal. Subscribe to this podcastanywhere podcasts are available.
Be sure to leave us a ratingand a review when you do.
Let us know how we're doing.Thanks so much for listening.
Welcome to the Academic MedicinePodcast. I'm Toni Gallo.
Since 2008,
each issue of Academic Medicine hasfeatured original artwork on the cover
and an accompanying essay exploring theorigins and the inspirations for the
piece.
Artists whose work has been featuredinclude medical students and residents,
(00:24):
educators, clinicians, patients,and caregivers. On today's episode,
I'm joined by two artists whose workhas appeared on the cover of Academic
Medicine.
Rachel Mindrup's oilpainting "Ill-Fitting" is featured on the August 2023
cover and her aquatint etching"The Wristband" is featured on the
June 2025 cover and Dr.Tuyet-Minh Tran's paper quilling
(00:47):
piece "An Ode to AnatomicalDonors" is featured on the May 2025
cover. In our conversation today,
we'll talk about Rachel's and Tuyet-Min'sartwork and their experience blending
art and medicine.
We'll also talk more broadly aboutthe role of the arts and humanities in
medicine and medical education.So to start our conversation,
(01:08):
I'm going to ask each of you to introduceyourself for our listeners and also to
tell us a little bit more about theartwork that you've published in Academic
Medicine. So describe it forus. What medium did you use?
How did you create it, and what was theinspiration? Rachel, you want to start?
Sure. My name's Rachel Mindrip.
(01:28):
I'm an associate professor and theDr. Deming Endowed Chair in Medical
Humanities at Creighton University.
I was lucky enough to be able tohave two of my pieces on the covers,
as Toni mentioned. Just to give alittle background to each of them,
both of the pieces have to do with myson and his kind of journey living with
neurofibromatosis, which is an incurableand progressive genetic disorder.
(01:51):
It causes tumors to grow anywhere in oron the body. It's very unpredictable.
There's no cure right now. Of course,
there are plenty of groups and peopletrying to help kind of change that,
of course. But as far as the two pieces,
it's kind of interestingbecause they're very sequential.
The piece that was shown firstwas an oil painting called,
it's called "Ill-Fitting," mostlybecause the painting depicted my son in
(02:15):
the dressing gown that Itried to help put him in. I
quite rather unsuccessfully tried to puthim in because in the painting you'll
notice that it doesn't fit him.
And I obviously didn't know whatI was doing with the medical gown.
And sometimes those gowns, they haveso many straps and cords and things,
and you're not sometimes quitesure how to actually put them on,
(02:36):
or do they open in the front or in theback. And this one was pretty threadbare.
And so when I got done with it, hewas turned around. So I had him,
I'm looking at his back and he said,well, he goes, is it on right, mom?
Is this right? And it lookedterrible. So I was like,
and this was before he went in for hismeeting with the neurosurgeon for brain
(03:00):
surgery. But when I said,well, it is what it is,
I don't know what I'm doing.But in that moment,
the light was coming downfrom the examination room,
and it was sort of illuminating him insuch a way that I actually thought it
was, I thought it was quite beautiful.
And so I actually wanted to capture thatmoment in oil and as an oil painting.
So it really is just that picture ofmy son asking me if everything is okay.
(03:24):
It wasn't. But anyway, soI tried to, like I said,
capture that moment and with thelight. And then, like I said,
I kind of did thatbefore his brain surgery.
But then the other aquatint etchingthat I did that's on this month's issue
is that wristband. AndI know so many people,
obviously everyone who's in medicineknows to take off all the jewelry,
(03:47):
just take all of that stuff off.
And so trying to be thethoughtful mother that I am,
I try to do all this stuff, andI actually forgot of all things.
I actually forgot his wristbandthat actually says End NF on it.
And only after his brain surgery whenhe came out and he had all these other
tubes and cords and all this stuff thatyou obviously have to put on, it's like,
I saw that wristband and I was like Ican't believe I forgot the wristband.
(04:11):
So anyway, that's kind of thestory of at least both of those.
So one kind of event that led intotwo different kind of depictions.
Why did you choose the mediumsthat you did for these two pieces?
Well, first off, I should havementioned too that, I mean,
I love oil painting andI love printmaking. So that's always the decision,
am I going to draw and am I going topaint? Am I going to do printmaking?
(04:34):
What lends itself to these?
So with Henry's situation before going in,
like I said, just the way the light wascoming down on him and just my view of,
like I said, how I really horriblytied that gown, which I think,
and anyone now looking at thatpainting's going to be like, yeah,
she did a pretty bad job there.
But that one to me just sort of lentitself with the light and with the colors.
(04:57):
And even the colors on thatgown itself kind of lent color.
I thought those muted greens andblues and stuff would make for a nice
oil painting.
Printmaking and etching in particularis a laborious and talio process. It's
very method based, so you'vegot to do this before,
you can do that before.
(05:18):
And so you've got to keep dipping thisplate in acid and then stopping out where
you don't want things to etchanymore and all of this stuff.
So you kind of keep doing allof this and all these layers.
So when I saw Henry's wristband likethat and all the layers of cords and all
the intricacies and all the sort of,
I don't want to saythe minutiae of it all,
it's like that looks like somethingthat would also be captured in a
(05:42):
process that is just as technicallyprocess oriented ... layers ...
You have to get ...
aquatints and etchings you kind ofhave to get all that right or you'll
accidentally over etch oryou'll kind of mess it up.
And I have years of experiencemessing up etchings and aquatint.
So with that, I thought toothat if I do mess this up,
(06:03):
there's a little wiggle room ofspontaneity that could have acid wherever,
because what isn't such a,well, I shouldn't say this,
but I don't say unperfectkind of thing. Things happen.
Stuff happens that you didn'texpect. I'm just a caregiver,
but I am sure Tuyet can explainsome of the things that she's seen.
For sure.
(06:23):
That's why I thought the etching and theaquatint was kind of a perfect medium
for that experience.
Tuyet-Minn, you want to tell usabout your paper quilling piece,
which I think probably also requires lotsof very careful steps in creating it.
Yeah. Well, my name is Tuyet-Minh.
I just graduated from the School ofMedicine at the University of Virginia,
(06:43):
and I'll be starting my residencyin ophthalmology this summer.
The piece that I submitted is called"An Ode to Anatomical Donors," and it's
made with paper quilling.
This is an art form that usesreally thin strips of paper,
maybe a millimeter thick and maybe likethree to four millimeters high depending
on the paper you're using. So long stripof paper that you roll into a coil,
(07:04):
almost kind of like aroll of toilet paper,
and then you can pinch that coil intodifferent shapes and glue it down onto
base, a base to create a bigger image.
And so I made this piece mainlybecause it was a required assignment.
We were asked to reflect onour experiences in anatomy lab and paper quilling
has just kind of been mything for the past few years,
(07:24):
but it felt really fitting for thisassignment because anatomy is a process of
dissection. We're takingthe whole body apart,
and I feel like sometimes in that process,
you lose who the person is as a whole.
And so I thought it'd be symbolic in away to use paper quilling to take all
these tiny strips of papers that almostmimic the fibers of the muscle and to
now put the body back togetherthat I'd taken apart in anatomy.
(07:48):
So what kind of paper didyou use or did you collect?
Is this paper that you found in theanatomy lab or something that you're like,
oh, grab that and quill it,
or where'd you get thepaper and how'd you decide?
Yeah, I wish it were that symbolic,
but it's literally a kit my parentsbought for me on Amazon when I first got
into paper quilling.
I think it has to be a certain type ofthickness to be able to maintain its
(08:11):
rigidity while still being able to rollup and not have all these bends and
kinks in the paper. But I used up allmy different tones of reds for this.
I thought it'd be a nice silhouettebecause for those who haven't seen the
piece,
it's basically a silhouette of all themuscles of the back with also a little
bit of the face peeking out.
So I feel like it highlights some ofthe anatomy of the body while still
maintaining some of the humanity inthe body with that piece of the face
(08:34):
sticking out.
Yeah, it's great. Well, nowthat you ran out of the paper,
how are you going to do the othersections of the body in paper quilling?
Is that what's next with this?Curious minds want to know.
We've seen this now and we want more.
That's a great question.
Basically staying away from anythingthat involves the red muscles.
(08:54):
I actually paper quilled a set of threepieces for one of the doctors who wrote
me a letter of recommendationfor residency. Luckily, she's an ophthalmologist,
so I used up some of my last strips ofred for the muscles that go around the
eye. And then I did a fun one ofthe iris and then one of the retina,
so that nerve layer atthe back of the eye,
but I have to buy another kitat this point for the reds.
(09:16):
I was going to say, are wegoing to be able to see those?
I was just curious if we were going tosee some eyes that are done in paper
quilling.
I would love to submit some,
so I made sure to take some good picturesof the pieces before I gifted it away.
Yeah, I look forward to seeing those too.
You mentioned this is somethingyou started as an undergraduate,
and how has that connection with,
(09:36):
particularly as you're thinking aboutanatomy and how has that shaped your
experience as a medical studentand now as you go into residency,
do you think this is somethingthat you'll continue?
Definitely something I'll continue.
I think art is really nice becausesometimes it can be literal,
but other times it has an element ofsubjectivity and you start to think about
(09:58):
your process before you put it onto paper.
And so art has been a way for meto translate the literal things I
do in life and kind ofput some thought into it,
into how medicine impacts not only me,but also the patient, also their family,
also their caregivers, and thenetwork that they exist in.
And also me as a physician,but also as a person.
(10:20):
So kind of just being able to useart as a form to reflect on my
experiences.
Well, and you mentionedthat this was actually,
the genesis was from anassignment. So it seems like,
so you were given the option of whetherto maybe write a reflection or to
portray these thoughts throughartistic medium. Is that correct?
Yes, that's correct. Basically,the world was our oyster.
(10:43):
We could have done whatever we wanted,
and I just thought paperquilling was fitting,
the strips of paper almost mimickedthe muscle layers you see. And again,
just that symbolism of, hey, wetook the body apart in anatomy.
Let's put it all backtogether with this piece.
How big is your piece?What are the dimensions?
I think the piece of paper that it'smounted on is six by six, so the ...
(11:06):
six by six inches. So the quillingitself ... yeah, not six feet.
I was like, you'redoing a life size. Okay.
Yeah, no, no, no, no. Thatwould've taken forever.
You'd still be working on it right now.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, so that's really small andintimate then. Yeah, really detailed,
which I feel like lends itself tomimicking parts of the body with all the
(11:29):
detail, the nerves, thedifferent fascial layers.
There's so much complexity to the body.Yeah, very cool.
And Rachel, what about you?
Your role teaching art to medicalstudents or incorporating art into
the medical curriculum.
Can you tell us a little bit about thatand then maybe how that's affected your
own art?
Yeah, there's a nicerelationship with both.
(11:50):
I get the privilege to work with firstand second year students in Creighton
School of Medicine doing some of thesimilar things that Tuyet was talking
about, but at least at Creighton,
we've got the humanities sort ofwoven in to those first two years,
which is kind of nice.
So I've been lucky enough to get toactually work directly with the students
with different projects like that.Nothing, maybe not paper quilling,
(12:13):
haven't gotten to do that.
But I'm also able to bring exhibitionsto Creighton that have that nice
relationship of medicalhumanities. So over the years,
we've been able to bring exhibitions ofjust different artists who work in that
intersection of medical humanities.
A couple of years ago webrought in Jeff Hanson.
He was a legally blind artist who had NF,
(12:34):
but he was creating paintings by feelwith all these textures and everything.
Even with that, what we call orthink of as perhaps a limitation,
didn't really stop him.
His paintings were absolutelyamazing and gorgeous and wonderful,
and he was able to sell 'em at thesedifferent gala events and stuff.
So by the time he was 20 years old,
he had already raised amillion dollars for charity,
(12:54):
and so his goal was to raise $10 millionfor charity by the time he turned 30,
but he passed away because of his NF, sohis brain tumors had a different plan.
So I brought in his parents who werecontinuing that legacy. What was fun was,
besides bringing in his artwork,and we work with our undergrads too,
so our undergrad students and our medstudents will work together and stuff,
(13:17):
but they worked with the Hansons andactually created Jeff Hanson inspired
artwork,
having to try and figure out how tomake artwork if you were also visually
impaired. And we did that. We hadEileen Powers work with our students.
She was an artist out inBoston who had leukemia,
so she had lost her hair just fromall the different chemotherapy.
(13:38):
And at the time, she said for her,when you're going through chemotherapy,
everybody wants to help,
and the best way we know howto help is to give people food.
And so she said her freezer wasstuffed, so at some point, no more food.
So she had come up with this,
can you make hair for me kindof project and not like literal
wigs, don't really make hair forme. But she wanted everybody just,
(14:01):
if you can find stuff aroundthe house, it could be noodles,
it could be some Velcro youhave laying around, film strips,
just what's kind of stuff that you take,you don't even realize that you have,
and could you make some sort of hair outof that? Our med students made hair for
Eileen, so they broughtstuff from home. I mean,
(14:21):
some of it was tinfoil.One med student brought,
she brought nuts and bolts, which Ithought was really funny and these cords.
And then she told me later that she didn'trealize that her dad did not want her
cutting up all these cordsand taking all the bolts,
but she made this really cool "hair" thatthen we shipped all this work back to
Eileen, and she took photos of it.Then we had an exhibition of her work,
(14:43):
but it was all the "hair" thatthe Creighton students had made,
and when we do this stuff,
then of course Eileen was on Zoom talkingwith our students the whole time about
what it's like to actually go throughchemo and a nice time to actually ...
and I think med students have such a ...
I don't want to say anadvantage a little bit,
because they can actually spend a littlebit more time sometimes with patients.
(15:06):
That's just my opinion. Imean, I'm just a caregiver,
but it just seems like med studentssometimes do get to have a little bit more
time so they can actually have thesemeaningful conversations. So for Eileen,
she's talking with the different medstudents while they're making the hair for
her,
but they're having these nice organicconversations about what is life actually
when you're living withcancer. So like I said,
(15:26):
we've just been able tohave some really, I think,
impactful medical humanitythemed exhibitions that both our undergrads and our
med students, I mean, they just remember,
it's hard to not remember that impactof either making hair or like I said,
and that's just two of 'em. I'vebeen doing this for a while,
so I won't take over the wholepodcast with all the stuff we've done,
(15:48):
but I try to keep it something thatwill be really engaging for the medical
students to help put themselves insomeone else's shoes if possible.
I find it so interesting that you referto yourself as "just" a caregiver.
I feel like that's actually themost important perspective to have.
You get to see the ins andout of a person's life, whereas on the medical team,
(16:08):
sometimes we're just therefor a glimpse of things,
and it's really the context that peoplelive in that really affects them the
most.
Oh gosh. I dunno. Like Isaid, well, all of you,
the med students and thephysicians, and I mean,
I am just grateful you guysare, we need you. So yeah,
I just represent the public here,the caregiver, but it's like, no,
(16:31):
we so need you guys. Yeah, I'm just sograteful and stuff. And like I said,
I really am just a caregiver. I canonly give those perspectives. I mean,
I am not jumping in trying to figureout the diagnosis and figure out ...
that's what ... all of usare so ... like I said,
we're all just grateful for everybodyin the health fields too. I mean,
when it comes to my son's surgery, Iam grateful to everybody, of course,
(16:55):
the neurosurgeon, but the nurses,all of the people coming in,
oh my goodness, which for brain surgery,
it's like 20 peoplelater. It's like, wait,
what's your role? There's all thesepeople coming together like a huge
interdisciplinary team tobasically make sure my son
is going to be fine. So yeah,
(17:16):
I just always operate outof a realm of gratitude.
But some of mine are, and really, sothe artwork too, the ones on the cover,
it's like that's really a caregiver'sperspective. I bet anything,
if you asked some of the people on Henry'steam, what artwork would they make?
I am sure they'd come up with acompletely different type of visual.
(17:39):
So that's kind of funny. I didn't knowI was referring as just a caregiver,
but I just want to make sureeverybody knows I am not a physician.
I'm not qualified to be giving anysort of advice in that sort of way.
But yeah, as a mom with a kid withan incurable genetic disorder,
we've definitely spent sometime in various hospital
(17:59):
settings and clinics.
I think that's the beauty of artwork too,
is that it calls all of those differentperspectives into play at different
times because sometimes what somebodysees through the lens of a caregiver or a
parent is very different from whatthe people in the medical team are
seeing. And I don't think eitheris more important than the other.
It's sometimes a nice reality check toremember exactly what it is that you're
(18:23):
dealing with, which isa life and a person.
And I think both what you've said heretoday and also the art that you are
talking about brings outthat this is a person,
not just a disease,
and whether it's ananatomical donor or a patient,
how do you think thatrole of art in sort of
(18:45):
centering the patient as aperson as opposed to just
treating a disease,
either from an educator perspectiveor a learner perspective,
can you maybe reflect on that alittle bit of how art can uniquely do
that?
Well, I would say atleast with visual artwork,
(19:05):
but this could be applied to poetryor novels or anything like that.
But I mean, you do actually invitethe viewer to just simply pause.
I mean, think of how we're alwaysgoing. We've got a million things to do,
all this stuff, but I mean, when youstop to look at a piece of artwork, well,
you really are just actually pausing.
You're actually stopping to lookat it for a moment and linger.
(19:28):
And so it's like, well, of course thenyou're kind of wondering, what is this?
Then maybe who is this? Or what is thisabout? What's going on in this picture?
Why was this even created? I mean, allof those questions are kind of going on,
and I just think art, especiallywhen it comes to healthcare,
I think sometimes visual art cansort of break down, honestly,
some of the complexities going on intoa digestible format for the rest of
(19:51):
us to ponder and consider.
Yeah, I think my piece startedout as a very technical piece.
I was deliberate about thesilhouette, but as a piece itself,
it's a bunch of muscles there.But I think, like Rachel said,
it's about that pause and how the viewerinterprets it that's really powerful.
And so a lot of times when peoplehave taken a look at the piece I made,
(20:13):
they're like, wow, this looks sointricate. Look at all the little coils.
And it's like, yes, this is art, but alsothe human body is just that intricate.
You have these tiny nerves just coursingbetween muscles and all the pieces of
the spine and how the fasciaconnect things together.
And so the intention ofthe people making the art
portrays one thing,
but a lot of the time the beauty is inthe eye of the beholder and how they
(20:36):
interpret the piece of art itself.
And what do you think on theother side of being the viewer,
whether personally or justsort of physicians in general,
what that experience is likeand how it can sort of help you?
We had an episode about the medicalhumanities last year where the guests
(20:56):
talked about learners will come intoa healthcare system that is not ideal,
that maybe they wish could be better,
and the art can help them process allof that. What are they experiencing?
What is their place in thegreater world of medicine?
How do you think about all ofthat being a viewer of art?
Well, again, I think it dependson the different pieces,
(21:19):
but a lot of times it kind oflets you know you're not alone.
So sometimes you have these feelings,depends on what your experiences are.
I think all of us at some pointhave been a patient as well.
So I feel like all of us have had that.
But sometimes you can look at a piece ofartwork and it's like, oh, okay, yeah,
I've been there. I actually know exactlywhat that, so the way somebody, just,
(21:40):
the way they create a sceneand it's like even with ...
I shared that Henry hasNF and that kind of stuff.
I'm not sure you need to have NFto look at my artwork to say that
you kind of know what's going on,you understand the feelings I had,
but you don't need to suddenly haveyour PhD and all the intricacies of
(22:01):
neurofibromatosis to look at thework and feel like you understand,
or same with Tuyet's piece.
You don't have to be a master of anatomyto look at her work and appreciate that
and think about it and thatsort of thing. So for me,
a lot of times it's just that ideaas an onlooker that you're not alone.
This is kind of a shared,
maybe a bit of a shared experienceabout the human condition.
(22:23):
I think for me, with artwork also,
it kind of challenges my own perspectiveon things. So for example, Rachel,
with your piece "Ill-Fitting"depicting the gown.
Sometimes for me when I'm helping apatient take off their gown, I'm like,
why are these straps so annoying.Why are they always tangled up?
Why is this gown alwaysin the way? And of course,
it shouldn't be that way to fallinto that pitfall of thinking,
(22:45):
but for other people,
that gown is something that's coveringup a patient's body day in, day out.
It's a loss of their ability to weartheir favorite clothing, their shorts,
they're kind of stuck to the bed.
And so it's just a nicecall to think about how your
perspective isn't the only one andhow there's so many different parties
involved, especially in the careof a patient and a person overall.
(23:08):
Yeah, I really like that.
Have you all had conversations with othersabout either the pieces we're talking
about here or other art that you'vedone and what it means to them,
what it means to you?
What's represented and itsconnection to medicine?
Well, I certainly have,
so besides the two pieces I was talkingabout with my son that appeared on the
(23:31):
covers, in addition to that,
I've been painting portraits of peoplewho live with neurofibromatosis for about
15 years. Most of my work isgoing to be portraits of people.
So I have lots ofconversations. Of course,
I'm very lucky to get to meetall sorts of different people.
But it's kind of fun too,because in one sense,
the genetic disorder is what kindof unites us all with this project.
(23:51):
But when you look at thepaintings, it's like, well,
their paintings are usually each personis just doing what he or she enjoys
doing. So when you look at mypaintings, it's like, oh, well,
this person's baking a cakeand this person's whatever,
watching birds or whatever theirpersonalities are. So I mean,
we have a lot of conversations aboutbasically you are who you are, and then,
oh, by the way, you also have NF.But in those paintings it's like, well,
(24:15):
whoever you are or whateveryour interest is is forefront.
And then the genetic disorderstakes a backseat to that. So yeah,
so as far as other artwork, I'veobviously been doing a lot of that.
And then like I said, it just with Henry,
then I get to do or I tend to do thingsthat are a little bit more personal.
So those are probably a little bit moreme showing what I'm thinking as a mom,
(24:39):
whereas the others are muchmore outward facing portraits.
And those really are also just to raiseawareness about neurofibromatosis.
I'm not sure, I know many of us,
and many of the people who probably arelistening to the podcast are familiar
with NF, but a lot of peoplein the general public just,
they just aren't surewhat you're talking about.
(24:59):
So the portraits have always been reallya good way for me to raise awareness
about the genetic disorder and actuallyshow that there's no face to it.
So that's always the irony is I'm aportrait painter who's trying to show you
what NF looks like,
and there's no actual face to the disorderbecause it presents differently from
person to person.
It's interesting. I feel like myartwork is a lot more literal,
(25:20):
and sometimes it's not quite thatthought provoking on the surface,
but I feel like most of the conversationsI've had about my pieces are usually
about how delicate they are, thesmall scale, and they're like, oh,
is this why you wanted to pursueophthalmology? And in a sense, it was,
I really like small detailedsurgeries rather than the big scale
ones. And so that connected ina sense. But I feel like for me,
(25:43):
art is a really nice way to sustain thatinterest with the hand skills in a way
that's still a hobby that'sstill fun for me on the side.
You mentioned when we were talkingearlier that this piece took you about as
long to create as the backdissection actually took.
Yes. Yeah. So the piece I made,
the "Ode to Anatomical Donors," thattook about 25 hours to put together again
(26:07):
for that six inch by six inch piece.
And I went back after I made the pieceand I calculated how much time we spent
in anatomy lab for all themusculoskeletal system,
and it was about that long.So just a fun parallel, again,
just how intricate the artwork is andjust how intricate it is to take apart the
body and really understand it.
(26:27):
Well, as a fellow artist,
I so appreciate that becauseI think sometimes the best,
most beautiful artwork are thesesmall, intimate little things.
It's like when you go tothe art museum sometimes.
Sometimes people will just run and rundown the hall and go to the biggest
painting they can find and stare at it,
and it's like you might've just ran pasta whole bunch of little miniatures or
(26:50):
little etchings or little drawings onyour way to run to this big painting or
something. So as an artist, I appreciate... sometimes I just appreciate ...
and then just the time, I totallybelieve that that took that long. I mean,
there's no way you can look at that pieceand not know that that took some major
time to do that.
Speaking of detail, I raninto this artist in Portland.
(27:12):
Her name is Sienna Art Studios,
and she basically puts together thesepieces that are just equations written
again and again, and then it forms thebigger piece of art. So for example,
she had a piece of I think the eye,
and it was written with all of theequations for the optics of the lens and
vision. She has one of the kidneys, thebrain, all sorts of stuff in nature too.
(27:32):
So I think it's sometimes that detailednitty gritty that makes your picture,
that's just so fascinating.
Oh, yeah, I know that I wouldfind that cool. For sure.
I just appreciate sometimesjust for me too, the intimate,
so the fact that your piece isonly six inches by six inches,
but you have to actually really stopand really look at that and see all the
(27:52):
time and the energy into thislittle intimate piece. Yeah,
I say that having ... as the ladywho just made the 30 what ...
36 by 48 into oilpainting, but I really do,
and sometimes I have toactually tell my students too.
I think sometimes they think thatthey've got to make big, big stuff,
make big paintings, and it's like, no,
you don't have to alwaysmake big paintings.
(28:14):
You can make a beautiful statementabout whatever it is you want to say,
but sometimes you can make a beautiful,nice, intimate little statement.
So sometimes I have to convince him.
Sometimes a smaller painting is sometimeswill say what you need it to say.
Sorry, can you tell myteacher thing is on now?
It doesn't always have to be somesix foot painting you guys. Yeah,
(28:34):
sometimes just the best stuff canbe nice and intimate and small.
I thought it was interesting too.
You compared the fine motor skillsbetween the paper quilling technique
and some of the clinical skills.
And that feels like anotherconnection where kind of those small
detailed movements andmotions make a difference.
(28:56):
Yeah, especially with paper quilling,it's such small strips of paper,
and once you bend it into shape, youkind of don't want to mash it around.
So I'm usually using tweezers to kind ofdip each piece into glue and then place
it down really precisely.
I think the toughest ones are when I'mjust gluing down the strips before I've
coiled them up. So again,
maybe a millimeter thick and I'm cuttingit to the precise shape or precise
(29:18):
length that I want, andthen placing it down.
So I knew I always wanted to use my hands,
whatever field I went into in medicine.
And so I thought maybe somebigger surgical subspecialty.
And then I realized I really likedthe teeny tiny, tiny surgeries.
At what point did you decide that?
Where in your educationaljourney did you decide?
(29:41):
I want the small intricate ...
I was always interested in ophthalmologyjust because of my own background,
but I kept an open mind going intomedical school and really tried to explore
other subspecialties. And I rememberdistinctly, it was during a colonoscopy,
they were looking for something, andin the words of the GI doctor, he said,
sometimes we just have to poke arounduntil we find it. And I was like,
(30:04):
I hate that. I just want to beprecise. Want to nail it down pat.
So I think there was some time inmy third year when I was like, yeah,
I think it's actually the small stuffthat I find the most satisfaction in.
That's so interesting.
So my son also sees aneuro-ophthalmologist just because he's got this optic
glioma and stuff. Butwhat's interesting is,
(30:25):
so we've been seeing thisneuro-ophthalmologist ever since he was a baby,
but the other neuro-ophthalmologist thathe works with, I was chatting with her,
so she did one of those, Hey, Igot to talk to you. So she's like,
you're an artist. And I'm like, yeah,she does these eyeball paintings.
So she's also this artistwho's a neuro-ophthalmologist,
and in her free time she's doing theseamazing paintings of eyeballs and stuff.
(30:49):
So now you've got me wondering,
is everybody who's in ophthalmologyor is everybody a visual artist?
There must be a link here. But yeah, shegoes, I love painting eyeballs. Anyway,
and they were really cool. Of coursethey were. But yeah, so I'm like,
maybe there's a link.
It's fun because ophthalmologyis a very visual subspecialty.
(31:11):
You get to look at patient's eyesunder the microscope up to 40
times of magnification.
You can see all the way to theback of the eye through the pupil.
And so I get to look in and see exactlyeverything I need to see just through
the microscope.
I think it's kind of neat.
We're talking a lot about howthe arts and humanities can help
(31:31):
learners learn about themselves and maybewhere they want to go in their career
and also learn about medicine andwhat it's like to be a clinician.
You both talked aboutcourses or curricula at your
institutions.
Are there other things that are happeningin the way that the arts have been
incorporated into medicine or medicaleducation that either is really
(31:55):
neat or where there are still some gapsthat you would love to see addressed?
At least at UVA, we offer acourse called Healers Art,
I think in the firstyear in medical school.
And that's offered at severalmedical schools across the nation.
So it's not just UVA,
but it's basically a course that callsstudents to reflect on their experiences,
(32:16):
not just within thenitty gritty of medicine,
but more so with coping with grieffor the patient and the provider,
with wellness,
with kind of sustaining your own wellbeingas a clinician when all of your life
is kind of dedicated tothe wellbeing of others.
And so I think in this coursethere was less of the visual arts,
but more so written art, prose,self-reflection, journaling.
(32:39):
But that was great in the first year.
And I think UVA does a really good jobof trying to sustain that throughout all
of medical school,
but sometimes it becomes a time constraintwhere you're spending so much time in
clinic and you just have to be a littlebit more deliberate about debriefing
about it.
But I thought UVA did a fantasticjob with it throughout my four years.
Well, just to second that, I do thinkit's much more prevalent and stuff.
(33:02):
I think different universities and schoolsjust around the country and stuff are
all kind of realizing the benefit ofmedical humanities and seeing that it does
indeed have an impact.Creighton, of course,
has the Master's ofMedical Humanities program.
I just feel like there's thisneed for it, obviously. I mean,
a lot of these different institutionsare kind of seeing that the students also
(33:23):
are actually very interested in this,
and some of it is also fortheir preservation and how do they process? I mean,
when I work with med students too, it'slike how do you process some of this?
These are heavy topics and heavy thingsthat they are encountering now and will
encounter as a physician.And in some regards,
we want to make sure there isn't physicianburnout. And so how can we also let
(33:45):
the arts and beyond visualart for sure, poetry writing,
some of these other sort of outlets,
but are we making sure that we arealso preparing our physicians to be
well-rounded full human beings,
not just basically burning outand just after every six minutes
you're running to see another patient.
It's like our physicians are peopletoo who need this and need an outlet.
(34:10):
And I think the medical humanitiesallows that opportunity.
And obviously beyond Creighton,
there is what's called theHealth Humanities Consortium.
So every year rotates fromdifferent universities. Creighton,
our medical school in Phoenix hosted itlast year, but it was at Case Western,
it was at Vanderbilt. Itmoves around the country.
So that's a nice coming togetherof like-minded people all sort of
(34:35):
looking in different waysof how to incorporate the
humanities either into thecurriculum or for their own research.
So I think it's getting more and moresort of, I don't want to say accepted,
but thought of and integrated. Soactually when I started, honestly,
I didn't know I was doing medicalhumanities. So when I started,
(34:56):
I'm not sure there was actuallya term for it. I was like,
maybe that just means I'm old,
but it's like I'm just paintingportraits of people with NF.
I just want to raise awareness. Andthen over the years it's like, okay,
this actually has a term. Andit's just more and more people,
I think are sort of seeing the value ofwhat this is and what it can do and how
it can be helpful, like I said,
in that conference or that consortiumis kind of a nice coming together of
(35:19):
people all over the country and stuff,kind of sharing thoughts and ideas.
Yeah, I agree witheverything you said, Rachel.
I think it's nice that within medicine,
people are starting to actively createspace for the medical humanities.
I know at UVA, there's alsothe Hook Scholars program,
which takes about maybe six studentsa year and they dedicate some time to
creating a project within therealm of medical humanities.
(35:42):
So I think it's just a nice facet ofmedicine that we don't always think about
when we're stuck in the nitty grittyof the kidneys or something like that.
Just something to bring us back to whywe came here and who it is that we care
for.
Yeah, well stated.
So we're just about atthe end of our time.
I want to give you each a chance ifyou have any final thoughts you want to
share,
and if you want to tell listenerswhere else they can find you and your
(36:07):
artwork if they're interested in learningmore. Rachel, you want to go first?
As far as where to find my artwork,feel free to just go to rminddrip.com.
I post everything there. That's justmy website. Or of course, Instagram.
Not quite as savvy on that one. Somaybe just the website's good. But yeah,
(36:28):
you can find me there.And thanks for having me.
I've enjoyed our conversation today.
I'm not as high tech. I don'thave my art in a platform yet,
but I was asked that so many times onthe interview trail that I've started
thinking about putting together somesort of portfolio on a website or
Instagram. But as of right now, youcannot find my artwork on the internet.
But thank you for having me.
(36:50):
Most of the time, the pieces that I'mmaking are gifted to other people,
and so it's not too often that I actuallycreate artwork that I keep for myself,
but I should do a better job ofdocumenting it all. And I think overall,
just getting to do art,
make art is a really nice way forme to reflect on things that I
see in daily life.
(37:11):
Just calls into question the otherperspectives and makes me grow as a person
and a clinician. Sothank you for having me.
Thank you both for being here.
And I want to encourage our listenersto look for the covers that we talked
about today with Rachel'sand Tuyet-Minh's artwork.
The cover art feature ... We have anopen call for artwork every other year,
(37:32):
so in 2026 will be our nextcall. If you are an artist,
please submit your workand we'd love to see it.
Perhaps we'll see some otherpaper quilling eyeballs or other
things. But take a looknext year for that call.
And thank you both again for beinghere. This was a great conversation.
Thanks for having me.Thank you.
From Academic Medicine's website,
(37:54):
you can also access the latestarticles and our archive dating back to
1926,
as well as additional contentincluding article collections.
Subscribe to Academic Medicine throughthe subscription services link under the
journal info tab or visitshop.lww.com and enter
Academic Medicine in the search bar.
(38:15):
Follow us and interact with the journalstaff on LinkedIn at Academic Medicine
Journal. Subscribe to this podcastanywhere podcasts are available.
Be sure to leave us a ratingand a review when you do.
Let us know how we're doing.Thanks so much for listening.
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