March 21, 2025 • 54 mins
300 | Haley's Sisters
We’ve reached our 300th episode! I found my paternal side of my family 14 years ago, and I discovered that I had three younger siblings. So even though I’m the only adoptee on today’s show, I thought you’d enjoy this peek behind the curtain, exploring what was it like for my young sisters when they were told at age 9 and 12, that they had a surprise older sister.
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(00:00):
This podcast is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it, either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You're listening to AdopteesOn, the podcast where adoptees
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discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
I didn't really think that I'dreach this milestone, but it's here.
We have reached our 300th episode, andI've been thinking about this for months
and was trying to decide what specialinterview, what special topic, what
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could I bring you to mark this milestone?
And I finally decided.
that I wanted tocelebrate with my sisters.
I found my paternal side of myfamily 14 years ago, and I discovered
I had three younger siblings.
So even though I'm technically theonly adoptee on today's show, I thought
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that you'd enjoy this peek behindthe curtain, exploring what it was
like for my young sisters when theywere told at age nine and 12 that
they had a surprise older sister.
We deep dive what reunion waslike for them, the ups, the downs,
what things are like for us now.
We also have a brother.
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He was 14 when we first met, and now heis a very busy young husband and father.
And when I spoke about this recordingwith him, we had his blessing.
And I think he shares some of thesame sentiments that our sisters
are going to share with us today.
Before we get started, I want topersonally invite you to join our
Patreon adoptee community today overon adopteeson.com/community, which
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helps support you and also the show tosupport more adoptees around the world.
Oh my gosh.
Come meet my sisters.
Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased tointroduce to my listeners.
My sisters, Amy and Sarah.
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Hello, girls.
Hello.
Hello, everyone.
I should say, okay, Amy.
Who's Amy?
I am Amy, and Sarah and I have been toldwe sound really similar, so it might
sound like we're the same person talking.
Oh, no.
Okay, and Sarah,
Hi, this is me We do speak verysimilarly, but I think I don't know
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I think you'll be able to tell.
I think so.
I think so.
That's so funny.
I don't hear it maybeI should I don't know.
I love people's voices.
I'm obsessed with sound so youknow, that's the reason for my job.
Thanks for being on.
You guys are not adopted, but youhave some in depth expertise into
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my adoption reunion situation, whichI thought folks might be interested
in to celebrate 300 episodes.
So welcome.
Thanks for being brave.
The only other relativewho's been on the show.
Is your mother.
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
I do remember when mom was on the show.
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Do you?
Yeah.
I do.
I remember.
I listened to her episode.
Sarah, did you listen?
I think I listened,but it was forever ago.
I don't remember at all.
Like, how that went orwhat the conversation was.
Zero memory.
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Yeah, it's been a long time.
Speaking of, okay.
So we've been in reunion for14 years as of the time of this
recording, which is pretty amazing.
Sarah, you were nine.
Amy, you were 12.
And so we've already passed the markwhere I've been in your life more
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than not over the halfway point.
Do you remember that it was that long?
Do you have a clear delineationof before Haley and after Haley?
I do, for sure.
It was, yeah, I think really alreadya pivotal time in my life, right?
I was 12, almost a teenager, andso I have a really clear pre Haley,
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post Haley memory in my life.
It was like, oh, and I havethree siblings, not two.
So yeah, it was a really big deal.
Definitely a significantlife event in my childhood.
When I called our brother to tellhim we were doing this, he said,
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yeah, what I remember is we satdown to dinner and all of a sudden
there was a secret surprise sister.
Sarah, do you remember that?
I absolutely remember that, and I think,I don't remember the dinner itself,
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but I vividly remember after dinnerthat mom or dad had been like, we have
something to tell you, and I remembera long pause, and dad looking the most
nervous I have probably ever seen him.
He is a very clear speaker, he alwayshas something to say, and it was a little
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of him trying to get the words out andfumbling almost before saying it, I
very much remember that very clearly.
Oh my gosh, that's crazy youremember that so clearly.
I don't remember theactual moment they told us.
Yeah.
I actually don't, I remember afterand my, I was feeling so surprised
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and I remember that, but your memoryis so clear for the fact that.
Yeah it was such a thing of I don'thave a lot of memories across all
my life of Dad being frazzled.
He was nervous and frazzled to tellus this news, and so I think it was
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so out of the ordinary that I justvery much remember he was super
nervous to have that conversation.
So you don't remember that, Amy, butwhat do you remember about that time?
I remember I was feeling really upsetafter because as I don't know if your
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listeners would know but we grew up ina very Christian kind of environment and
so for me having premarital sex was likethe worst thing you could possibly do and
so I was just shocked to hear that my dadhad a baby outside of marriage when he
was super young and so that was reallyearth shattering for me as a 12 year old.
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Totally.
It's like the person I thoughtI knew is no more, right?
Cause you have this picture of who yourparents are and yeah, totally shattering.
Yeah.
So I remember that yourneighbor's dog was named Haley.
And so I felt really offended by thatbecause that was the first Haley in
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your life was a dog Haley but guesswhat I think that dog is dead so I win.
That is correct.
And I don't even remember that as my firstHaley just so you know, you're the first
Haley I don't even think about the dog.
I remember the dog sorry, Haley.
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Was it a boy dog or a girl dog?
It was a boy.
It was a boy!
And they, the only reason they had namedthe dog Haley was because they let their
eight year old daughter name the dog,who was like a year younger than me.
So it was probably, she probably namedhim when she was like, six and she
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wanted the boy dog to be named Haley.
So they were like, okay,I guess we're doing that.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
Okay, I remember sitting downto write you guys emails because
that was our first communication.
Do you remember emailing me?
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Do you remember anything that Isent you or what you sent back?
I remember all the emails.
I was so excited to email you.
It was the best thing.
I remember checking my emailsto see if Haley responded.
Oh my god!
I'm showing Amy a Full,single space typed.
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This is the first email you sent me.
It is a full page.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, this has got to be 500 words.
Yeah, and so I remember feeling, Ithink, so special because here was this
adult who, how old were you when we met?
27?
Yeah, 27, 28.
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Yeah.
27! And I just thought you were socool, and you wanted to talk to me,
and hear about my life, and you caredabout who my friends were and what I
like to do, and so I felt so special.
And I remember we met you notthat long before my 13th birthday,
and you bought me this necklace.
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Which I still have.
It's very wait, I'll go get it.
What?
I don't remember.
That was sweet.
I don't remember that.
Yeah, you bought me this necklace.
Oh my gosh.
And I remember you wrote me this note,and you were like, oh this lady hand makes
this jewelry, and each piece is unique
Aww!
And I think that's like us as humansbecause God makes each of us unique
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and you wrote this to me and seeI remember it so you I yeah, I
just felt so special and so loved.
Good job past Haley.
Wow, that's pretty good.
I love that.
I think my experience was so differentbecause I was so young, right?
That as a nine year old, I don't have avery vivid before and after of you, and I
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really do not remember a lot from emails.
I barely even remember emails.
I could not tell you a singlething that either of us said.
I think at the beginning ofreunion, I was just so excited.
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I was confused as to why therewere big feelings about it, right?
I was that young that I did not understandwhat a complex situation it was.
I was just like, yay!
I have a bonus big sister!
That's so exciting.
And I think when we maybe did a firstvideo call with you and Nick, it
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had been screenshotted or something.
Somehow I had a picture of you andI remember showing the picture to my
friends and being like, guess what?
I have a like older big sister.
And that was it.
And I know that there was a lotof intentionality on your end
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building relationship, right?
And starting to write emails andus emailing back and forth, which
really, I think I was just so readyand happy to accept and be like, yay!
This is fantastic!
And that was really it.
I don't remember a whole lotof early years whatsoever.
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I think that's really lovely forme to think about how for Isaiah,
he doesn't know any different.
You guys were always in our liveswhen he was born, and I love that.
For you, Sarah, like you don't reallyremember before Haley too much.
It's not this big delineation, notthat there's anything wrong with
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that, but that's a special thingfor you being so young in it.
And I do remember waiting for emails.
getting back.
Amy, I don't know if you remember this,but you did like a full photo tour
of the house before we ever visited.
Like I have a full, oh yeah, from thethe house you lived in when we first met.
I have a full photo tour.
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Oh my gosh.
I don't even remember that.
Wow.
Yep.
Yep.
So y'all spent time doing that.
There's a lot of pictures of the dog.
Not dog Haley, but your dog.
Do you remember?
Do you remember when we first met?
Did you feel like therewas an instant connection?
Or do you feel like ittook more time to build.
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I remember Sarah basically sittingin my lap the whole weekend wanting
to snuggle up, which was really cute.
Yeah, I think I felt like therewas an instant connection.
And I was just like, great,this is my big sister.
And that was really it.
For, my small brain, that's as far asI got with any of the details, was just
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like, okay, this is my big sister, andI was super happy and excited about it.
I think for me, it was different becauseI had been so used to emailing with
you, and I felt so connected to you overemail, and then I met you in person,
and all of a sudden, the sound of yourvoice is really new for me, and the
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way you speak is really new for me,and so it was almost like a switch.
I was so excited to meet you, and thenI was like, wait, this is different
than the person I was emailing.
It was like putting thetwo together, right?
Not that you acted any differently, butI wasn't used to you as a full human.
I had just had a pen pal almost.
It's like love is blind.
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Like we met in the pods and you'retalking and then you meet after and
it's oh, it's a person with a bodyand they're not like I pictured.
And
Yes, we had to go to phasetwo of the experiment.
Yeah.
Of the experiment.
Yeah, so true.
I think something I remember frommeeting in person for the first
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time was that I was more awkwardaround Nick than I was with you.
Because I think, as a young girl, itwas so much easier to be comfortable
around women than it was men and so itdefinitely took more time to be like,
okay, also she comes with a husbandand that's great, but also who is he?
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What's, what's the vibe and what isour relationship gonna look like?
That definitely took more time tobuild, I think, than it did with you.
Yeah, okay.
You probably won't remember this.
Amy wrote in her emailto me in the first one.
She's I think Sarah's probablydisappointed that you're already
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married because she would have likedto be a flower girl or something.
I think that is so true.
And Amy was right, exactly right on that.
That's amazing.
Okay, are there any similaritiesthat you guys have noticed
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between either us or me and dad?
Anything that's poppedup through the years?
I definitely notice.
Your and dad's sense of humor isreally similar, which I think was so
fun for me, especially as a teenager,because our dad has always been the
really funny one in the household.
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And so to see a woman who was also reallyfunny, it was like, oh wow, here's Haley
with the same kind of sense of humor.
So that was definitely a similarityI noticed between you and dad.
And I also really remember lovingthe fact that we look pretty similar.
Because I think mom and Sarah lookpretty similar, but I had been
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the female in our house who tookmore on dad's side of the family.
And so I just remember being like,oh my gosh, I think my sister is
so pretty and we look the same.
That's so special when I met you,so that was really nice, I think,
to feel like I had this similarity.
I'm gonna get all teary.
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Oh, I wasn't anticipating that.
Sarah, what about you?
Do you remember anysimilarities, or even now, like?
I definitely do.
Even just you and dad on paper, Ithink if dad was born when you were
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born, I think it's very possible hewould have a podcast about something.
Is that inherently?
I think our whole family our allof us siblings are very confident
public speakers and love reading andwriting and are very well spoken and
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I think that all comes from dad andhis, he is so much of that, and that
we're all very passionate people.
Also I think that's a hugesimilarity between all of us.
But I definitely remembersomething from my childhood.
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Dad had gotten me a comic book.
It was like a treasury ofall of the Ziggy comics.
I don't think it's a very well known comicseries, but essentially, the vibe of the
comics is that Ziggy is this kinda oddlooking, funny guy, and the humor is all
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very sarcastic and skeptical, and thatDad loved those comics, and Mom did not.
These comics are horrible!
They're depressing!
And he had given a book of them tome, and I loved them, and thought they
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were so so fun and entertaining andI think that we definitely share some
of the like more sarcastic humor andmore like deep skepticism like in being
funny and I think that's definitelya similarity between us and dad also.
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Do you guys remember one time Icame and I wrote little notes on
everybody's mirrors or windows I had Ion a white, with a whiteboard marker.
And because I did it right beforewe left for the airport, it was
like a secret kind of thing.
I don't even know what I wrote.
I don't know.
Just cutesy little notes, I'm sure.
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And y'all thought dad had done itbecause our writing is so similar.
And he's a lefty.
I don't understand how handwritingis genetic, but do you remember that?
I absolutely remember that and beingshocked to learn that it was you that
wrote the note on the board and just beinglike, wow, like, how is that even possible
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that your handwriting is so similar?
It was just such a funny thing.
I, yeah, I was like, what?
I don't, I didn't understand thatyou guys would think it was him
because why would he write, Idon't know, the whiteboard marker.
Okay.
Can you think of any surprises foryou in terms of our differences?
I remember when I met you guyswere vegetarian at the time.
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And I know Dad had written thatin an email, but I didn't act
like that was for, I thought hewas being joke around about it.
I didn't understand that.
No, you guys were in fact vegetarian.
And it was a huge dealbecause when we visited.
He made a steak when we came.
Do you remember that?
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I do remember that and it was a reallybig deal that dad was making steak.
It was the talk of the town fora week before you guys came.
Scandalous.
I think for me the biggest thing wasknowing that you weren't Catholic.
Oh.
That was a huge deal because eventhough you were Christian, the vast
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majority, especially at that point inmy life as a nine year old, we were
in Catholic homeschool groups and veryCatholic circles to the point where
all of my best friends were Catholicand their families were Catholic and
some of them had wayward older siblingswho weren't Catholic anymore, right?
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Which was a huge deal and I knew that atthe time that was just a really big deal.
So I remember, I think after maybethe first visit or something, having
a conversation with mom about it.
And me being concerned about youbecause you weren't Catholic,
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which is so funny now, I'm like,oh boy, I'm very deep in that.
I even worked at a church at the timeI was, all in evangelical Christianity.
You couldn't get more Christian.
I'm like,
100 percent.
But I think at some point youwore black nail polish and that's
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really concerning behavior.
I remember that.
I remember the nail polish.
What?
Yes, that was very edgy for us.
We were like, whoa, shewears black nail polish.
Yeah, we were not allowed to wearblack nail polish which is so funny.
Oh my gosh, I didn't know.
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That's good.
I'm sure there was other scandalousthings I did that I did not know were.
Also remember you had a streak inyour hair, like you had a pink streak.
And that was also edgy.
We were like, whoa, she dyesher hair a different color.
But I was gonna say, the difference thatI remember was, I think, maybe your first
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visit when we had family game night.
And our family is very loud, there'slots of trash talking, there's lots
of hype and excitement, and it isa big deal, we're very competitive.
And I remember, Haley, thatyou had to leave the table,
because it was too much for you!
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And, I just re I was so surprised,because this was normal to me.
This is how you play games.
And so the fact that it was toomuch for you, I couldn't understand.
Oh, I remember that.
It was Monopoly.
And it was so intense.
And I am actually avery competitive person.
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I'm sure I've told you guys this gamebefore, this story before, but I remember
playing this game with this other coupleand it was, it's called Ticket to Ride.
I'm sure lots of people have playedTicket to Ride and you have to build
these pathways to other cities.
And there's only so many ways youcan get to a city, and if you don't
make it there's a big point penalty.
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And we were playing with this othercouple, and the wife had a meltdown,
because her husband took the lasttrack that she needed to win the game.
And she had a temper tantrum in frontof us, and, we were in our early
to mid twenties at the time, andI was just like, this is the most
embarrassing thing I've ever witnessed.
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I'm never gonna be this again.
I cannot be this competitive.
It is not that serious.
I still remember it.
It was yesterday.
Anyway, so I really toned itback on the competitiveness.
So when you guys were playing Monopolylike it was real money and you were
gonna actually be like so wealthywhen you won this game, I was so torn
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because that is my nature is to be, butI couldn't trash talk my new sibling.
I wasn't going to get in there.
Like it was like a very I can'talienate you in the beginning.
And this is I can't, I've neverseen a family act this way,
which I know lots of families do.
This is how game night is at my house now.
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Like my kids are just the same as supercompetitive as you guys were, are.
Yeah, I remember that.
It was, I didn't know what to do.
And I had left and Ifelt so awkward about it.
It was bad.
Yeah.
Oh, I could totally see that.
You don't want to trash talkthe new family that you're
trying to win over in a way.
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The kids?
Yeah.
The kids?
I was an adult.
I'm gonna trash talk Sarah?
No.
But you guys were super into it.
Into it.
Oh my gosh.
And now Monopoly isIsaiah's favorite game.
And I always win.
And he still wants to play.
I don't know.
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Can you give us the practical, like, howhave we stayed connected over the years
as you've grown into, young adulthood now.
Now you're, I don't know, can Ieven say young adults anymore?
I don't think so.
You're just adults.
I feel like I'm too old for young adults.
Okay.
Young adults.
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Sarah, you can be ayoung adult, but not Amy.
Okay.
Yeah.
From emails to what have we doneover the years to keep in touch?
I think it's definitely evolved over time.
At the beginning it was emails andthen I think there definitely were some
years where we didn't end up talkingas much and then it's evolved into
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more texting and more phone calls, andthen as I've gotten even older, visits,
either you visiting me, me visiting you.
So I would say it's changed becausemy life has changed so much since
I was 12 when we met, right?
Yeah, I think same for me, in termsof emails, even just having each
(27:12):
other on Instagram and being able torespond to stories and seeing each
other's, life updates in that wayand I think we don't talk right now
as much as we realistically could.
We do intentional phone calls everynow and then, but it's not a regular
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weekly communication between the twoof us, but it also, to me, feels very
much like my relationships with Amyand Daniel also in that, oh, it's
the phase of life, and it's, there'sso much love there, even without a
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weekly update and check in, right?
And I know, in the future, that will alsoevolve into a season of talking more,
or less, or whatever that looks like.
But it feels like a prettyaverage sibling connection to
me, where there's a big age gap.
(28:19):
Like it just feels so normal of yeah,there's not constant communication.
And also this is just kind of relationshipwhen one of you is in school and the
other one just graduated school andthe other one is an adult with kids.
With almost a teenager.
(28:40):
Literally.
Yeah.
I do appreciate howy'all roast how old I am.
That's good.
This is making me think.
I'm almost the age thatyou were when we met.
And that's crazy because in myhead you were so old and I do
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not feel that old right now.
It doesn't help that I was married.
That just makes you feelolder anyway, right?
It's oh, you're a real adult.
Fair enough.
Even though I got married when Iwas 20, okay, let's go to the hard.
Do you think of what's the most difficultthing that's been, has there been things
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difficult for us to navigate or anyparticularly super challenging times?
I think post reunion initially waspretty tough for me because as I said,
I had to re know and discover aboutwho my dad was and what my family was.
I even remember going to summercamp that summer and one of the
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classic questions you're askedis, how many siblings do you have?
And I was like, three, it usedto be this easy question and then
all of a sudden I felt stuck.
And so that was a really tough time andI think, I know the adults all went to
therapy, you and Nick and mom and dad,the adults all went to therapy and it
would have been awesome in hindsightif I had been brought into the therapy
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because I think that I was reallygoing through a rough time and that
all of the dynamics and the differentboundaries that were put in place with
communication, which were super helpfulfor the adults, were really tough on me.
And so it would have been just sonice if, I had the one, piece of
advice to give people in reunion.
It's don't leave anyone out.
(30:26):
Everyone is going to be affectedby the reunion, and if you're doing
therapy, everyone needs to be included.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I think for me, because I was so young, Idon't think I went through any difficult
periods with it, but I do remember therewas an emotional weight around the rest of
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the family, and that for a certain amountof time Mom and Dad were really going
through it, and, were in therapy and wereworking through things, but that I had
no idea what they were working through.
(31:15):
There was, like, I think, in manyways, the communication could have been
better, and maybe, like Amy said, itrealistically would have been helpful
for me to also go to a therapist.
And to have some maybe mediatedconversations about what was happening.
But I just remember in my head, youwere my sister and that was really
(31:42):
exciting and good but that mom anddad are really not okay and having a
difficult time with something which, evenas an adult, what's funny is that I'm
like I have no idea what was going on.
I still don't know what the therapy,between all of you was and what was
(32:07):
addressed, and I have no idea, and Idefinitely think it was really difficult
to know that there was this hugeemotional thing going on, that half
of the family wasn't okay, and that Ihad no concept of what was happening,
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and I think there could have been someextra communication to dumb it down to
a nine year old's level, almost, right?
Of I think I needed something to havea better idea of what was happening, to
feel more secure, I think, because theredefinitely was a time period where I
(32:48):
just knew the family did not feel stable.
Amy, do you know what theadults were all fussing about?
I do, and I did know at thetime, which I think was tough
almost in a way that I knew.
I know, Sarah, you're like,oh, I wish I would have known.
But see, I did know, and then that mademe worried, I think, for the adults.
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So yeah, I was privy to whatwas going on, which was tough.
It was just a tough situation.
Reunion is hard.
There's no easy, there's noeasy answer or path or system.
I'm trying to think about what youwould have thought were the issues.
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Even in my mind, I'm like, whatdid we talk about in therapy?
I know we talked about having rulesof how many communications and it was
very much like trying to right sizetheir relationships into more normalcy.
That's what I remember and I had Isaiah,pretty soon into reunion and so it was
(34:03):
like, oh, now I have a kid and it's whatare you going to be in terms of what
is grandparenting going to look like?
And that's the stuff I remember.
Sarah, is that what you remember, Amy?
Yeah, no, that's what I remember,and I think those rules surrounding
communication were what was really hardon me, because, I mentioned earlier,
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you were this older person who wasall of a sudden a support for me and
interested in me, and I was a prettyshy kid it was a really big deal for
me to have someone like you in my life.
And then, with the communicationrules, it blocked off our relationship.
I wasn't supposed to have private emailsback and forth anymore between you and me.
(34:49):
And it was like, all of a sudden,it's oh, here's the this person had
been brought into my life and thenall of a sudden was taken away.
And I remember sharing that.
I did share it.
And was then told, explained why therules were put in place, but I think
what I got from that situation wasthen like, okay, what I need doesn't
(35:10):
matter I'm not a priority here, we needto do this for the sake of the adults
and the dynamic, and I got that butit was like a big heartbreak for me.
It was very painful, I think especiallybecause the introduction of you into
our lives had created a lot of pain andstruggle for me internally and then I
got used to it and got close to you andthat was like, oh and upheaval again.
(35:35):
That's really hard.
Yeah, and I have so much grace forthe adults involved so much grace.
Everyone was doing their best.
It was a really hard situationeveryone was doing what they
thought was best right and as anadult, I totally understand that.
Yeah.
Aww.
Little Amy.
I know, right?
(35:56):
Poor little 12 year old Amy.
Aww.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now you can grade me.
Let's talk about, Idisrupted the birth order.
Daniel is no longer the oldest.
I'm the oldest by so manyyears, apparently, like decades.
For the listeners, you cangrade me on big sister duties.
(36:18):
As someone who grew up as an onlychild, how am I doing as a big sister?
You're doing great as a big sister.
I absolutely love havingyou as a big sister.
I often tell people how grateful Iam that you came back into our lives
because I missed out on you when youwere younger and when I was younger
and so the fact that I get to haveyou in my life is just incredible.
(36:42):
You've been such a support to me and Ithink the age gap, which I know you love
when I bring up, works out to be reallycool for me because I have this person
who does have more life experience thanme and you can be a support for me.
And there was one particular timeabout three, four years ago now that
I went through a really bad breakupand Haley flew out to come see me.
(37:06):
She flew out for the weekend and wespent an Airbnb weekend together and
traveled around and the amount ofsupport and love that I've gotten from
you has just been so meaningful for me.
I can't picture my life without you.
That's so nice.
Thank you.
Sarah?
I think you're doing greaton older sister duties.
(37:30):
Older sister.
You called yourself that.
You can't complain.
I'm so sorry, but you are older than me.
I don't know.
By so much.
I know.
Sarah, don't double down.
If it helps, I also callAmy my older sister.
(37:51):
You are both older than me.
Oh, she's very old.
Yeah.
Ancient, one would say.
Yeah, I think it is also been so lovelyfor me to have you a part of our lives.
There were definitely many yearsthat I was not close with Amy.
(38:13):
While we were living together, wereally did not, grow closer until
after high school and after we wereboth moving out and starting to make
our own life choices, which is, Ifeel like, very common for siblings.
And I think that because you never livedwith us, we always had that relationship.
(38:37):
Of there was no underlying tension andfighting about who's cleaning the bathroom
that week, which meant that you've alwaysjust been a supportive role and that
you have always just been a comfortablebig sister that I could talk about
(38:58):
with different things and that you wereolder was also a blessing to me, too.
There was one period when I was, Ithink it was the summer when I was
in grade, maybe going into grade 8or 9, that I had come to stay with
you and Nick for a few weeks after
(39:21):
I had surgery.
And you were helping becauseI couldn't pick up the babies.
Yeah, which to me was the best thingever and it was so special for me
to have a safe place outside ofmy family that was also my family.
(39:43):
Of this isn't my house where thingsare, there's different things going
on always with the other siblings andmom and dad and it was such a safe
haven for me to be able to have familywho I loved that, yeah, were able to,
(40:03):
support me and be there for me if atthat time, my mental health was so
not good and I remember having so manybeautiful conversations, and us hanging
out, and having girl time, and somany, yeah, so many blessings in that.
Okay, I'm fine.
Everything's fine.
(40:24):
What, God, what an honor.
I, Okay.
Sorry I'm tearing up over here.
I told y'all we're gonna keep itlight and fluffy and I'm gonna
keep it super professional.
That's just, it's a sweet moment.
That's nice.
What's it like for you havingme be a podcaster and talking
(40:47):
about adoption for my job now.
I think it's fun.
I'm like, oh, my sister has a podcast.
She's big in the adopteepodcasting and adoptee world.
And sometimes I'll tell peopleto go look up your podcast.
They'll be like, oh, send it to me.
So I'll send them an episode andthey'll listen, which is fun.
(41:08):
You're helping get me downloads?
All right.
Oh, yeah.
That's pretty good.
I think it is so wonderful and I am alwaysso proud to talk about that and share
that with people I think a lot of you knowthe very Christian spaces that we were
(41:32):
in growing up, many of them very much, Iheard a lot of messaging growing up that
was, adoption is the answer, it preventsabortion, and therefore, it is fantastic.
And I've had conversations with many ofmy friends and different people in my
(41:53):
life, and I'm always so happy to sharethat this is not a perfect solution.
This is not a perfect answer and thatthere are, many flaws and difficult
things and lifelong impact to adopteesand I feel so proud as a sister that
(42:18):
this is something that you went throughthat had a huge impact on you as a
person and your life and so proudthat you share your story with people
and that you have created a beautifulspace that you needed when you were 20,
(42:41):
like I am so proud of that and reallyjust think it's the best thing ever.
Oh, thank you.
Amy, have you have your thoughts onadoption changed over the years from
either from me or listening to the show?
I know you used to listen for a while.
I don't know if you everlistened, Sarah, but
(43:01):
I did.
I used to listen as I was falling asleep.
Happy to serve you to dreamland.
My thoughts on adoption havedefinitely changed over the years.
When we first met, as Sarah said, I wasjust hearing the Christian messaging
of adoption is this beautiful, goodthing and everyone should do it.
(43:24):
I even remember, like, when I wasmaybe 11 just before I met you
I went through a phase where Iwanted mom and dad to adopt a baby.
I was like, mom, you anddad should adopt a baby.
Yeah I was fully bought in to adoptionand so I think, I've really appreciated
getting to hear all the complexitiesabout adoption, and I often talk
(43:48):
about people, talk to people about thegrief that goes along with adoption,
and I've felt that grief, right?
The grief of missing out on knowingyou for so long, and so my thoughts
on adoption have definitely changed.
I'm no longer yes,adoption is always good.
And I see the grief and heartbreak onthe side of the biological family and
(44:10):
for the adoptee and all of the mentalhealth issues that go along with the
trauma of being relinquished at birth.
So I guess I've radicalized everyone.
Excellent.
My master plan has all come into fruition.
(44:30):
I think as a very young person, likeI would say probably as a 16, 17 year
old, from knowing your story and havinglimited understanding of everything I
(44:51):
knew at that point that I was like, okay,adoption will never be an option for me.
That if I got pregnant, I would neverplace my child up for adoption, which
I think, obviously there's a lot ofprivilege that comes with that in that
I know I have family who would supportme, I have a lot of financial support,
(45:16):
but I do think that's significant.
And that, for me, I've known fora long time from having you a
part of our lives that I was like,that would never be an option.
Wow, thank you.
Thank you guys for your candor.
I really appreciate youbeing willing to share today.
It's just been so lovely to hearall these memories and stories and I
(45:42):
have tingly love feelings in my body.
It's so nice.
Do you have any last thoughts,advice for people, especially for
people who have kids in reunion,like you shared some things today
like I literally had not thoughtof, and I feel silly that I didn't.
Even those things are helpful advice, butany last thoughts that you want to share?
(46:06):
With folks.
I think I would just reiteratewhat I said before that adoption
really affects everyone.
Reunion really affects everyone andI've had to process through my own grief
and my own feelings and I think that ifyou are in reunion and you have kids.
Take everyone to therapy.
I'm certainly biased because I'm inschool to be a psychotherapist right now
(46:28):
but family therapy is really helpful.
So take your kids to therapy.
It's gonna have an impact on themand I would say that it's gonna
impact everyone differently.
I know our brother was impacted verydifferently than I was and I was impacted
very differently than Sarah was, andso everyone's gonna have really unique
needs in this situation so spending timeto, as best as possible, support each
(46:50):
person in whatever they need is awesome.
Thank you.
Sarah?
I think I would just saythat, are we, is it 14 years?
14 years out, I think we're all doingreally well, and I know I am so grateful
(47:11):
to have Haley a part of our lives andI just would give hope to anyone that's
in the trenches of processing with a newfamily that there's so much hope and so
much work went into that on all sides.
(47:32):
But, that I'm so happy that you were braveenough to send that first text to Dad.
Sarah, you're so sweet.
You're such a sweet person.
I love your optimism and everything.
That is so true.
Aww.
I have loved being a big sisterand have worked really hard at it.
(47:58):
And it's just been truly such an honorto watch you both grow up and Daniel too.
And he's got his own little familynow and to get to be there for The
milestones, the breakups, the weddings,the babies it's just been just amazing.
(48:20):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you both for sharing.
I know it's not easy to be public butwelcome, welcome to the public podcast.
Thank you for having us.
It's an honor to getto be on your podcast.
That's such a special thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so happy that we were able to dothis and so happy to be able to share a
(48:42):
little bit of our side of that journey.
Aren't they amazing?
Our brother is equally as amazing and wehad this just really special conversation.
Even once we had finished recording, westayed on and chatted about how powerful
(49:06):
it was to unpack these things and likereally have a good discussion about them.
And we talked about some heavier topics aswell, but I just thought, wow, like how,
miraculous that after all these yearsand all the work that everyone put
in that we've built this beautifulconnection in all its variations.
(49:33):
So now I get to be an auntie.
And I have a sister in law and I'm goingto be gaining a brother in law shortly.
And we're reaching all these milestonesand I'm watching my sisters decide
on their careers and pursue them.
And it just, it's just so cool to beat this new stage of life together.
(49:57):
And if we hadn't put thework in, I don't know.
Where we'd be, we wouldn't be connected.
So I do hope that this doesbring you hope, like Sarah said.
I hope that this celebratoryconversation was a happy moment
(50:17):
that you could share in our joy.
And God, I really, it was reallyspecial to bring them to you.
And I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
And I told Amy and Sarah when we weredone, I'm like, even if this never went
to air, this was just like the best.
Here it is for you.
Thank you for celebrating300 episodes with us.
(50:42):
And I know I've beentelling you about this.
I'm working on this brand new project.
It is, it's all happening, and you'll behearing more soon, but there's so many
good things happening to be excited about,and advancing adoptee advocacy and family
preservation and lots of good stuff.
(51:05):
So thank you for listening.
Thank you for celebrating300 episodes with me.
I still can't really believe it.
That's a lot of episodes.
That's a lot of talking.
So, I'll just say goodnight, Amy.
Hopefully this helped you fall asleep and.
There's humbling moments, right?
It was overall so sweet, butit's come on, you know what?
(51:25):
Tell me in the comments, does anyoneelse fall asleep to our conversations?
I have my sleep podcast too.
So it is a compliment.
I hope you laughed with us and enjoyed,thank you so much for listening.
Let's talk again soon.
This podcast is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it, either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You're listening to AdopteesOn, the podcast where adoptees
(00:20):
discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
I didn't really think that I'dreach this milestone, but it's here.
We have reached our 300th episode, andI've been thinking about this for months
and was trying to decide what specialinterview, what special topic, what
(00:42):
could I bring you to mark this milestone?
And I finally decided.
that I wanted tocelebrate with my sisters.
I found my paternal side of myfamily 14 years ago, and I discovered
I had three younger siblings.
So even though I'm technically theonly adoptee on today's show, I thought
(01:05):
that you'd enjoy this peek behindthe curtain, exploring what it was
like for my young sisters when theywere told at age nine and 12 that
they had a surprise older sister.
We deep dive what reunion waslike for them, the ups, the downs,
what things are like for us now.
We also have a brother.
(01:25):
He was 14 when we first met, and now heis a very busy young husband and father.
And when I spoke about this recordingwith him, we had his blessing.
And I think he shares some of thesame sentiments that our sisters
are going to share with us today.
Before we get started, I want topersonally invite you to join our
Patreon adoptee community today overon adopteeson.com/community, which
(01:49):
helps support you and also the show tosupport more adoptees around the world.
Oh my gosh.
Come meet my sisters.
Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased tointroduce to my listeners.
My sisters, Amy and Sarah.
(02:10):
Hello, girls.
Hello.
Hello, everyone.
I should say, okay, Amy.
Who's Amy?
I am Amy, and Sarah and I have been toldwe sound really similar, so it might
sound like we're the same person talking.
Oh, no.
Okay, and Sarah,
Hi, this is me We do speak verysimilarly, but I think I don't know
(02:39):
I think you'll be able to tell.
I think so.
I think so.
That's so funny.
I don't hear it maybeI should I don't know.
I love people's voices.
I'm obsessed with sound so youknow, that's the reason for my job.
Thanks for being on.
You guys are not adopted, but youhave some in depth expertise into
(02:59):
my adoption reunion situation, whichI thought folks might be interested
in to celebrate 300 episodes.
So welcome.
Thanks for being brave.
The only other relativewho's been on the show.
Is your mother.
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
I do remember when mom was on the show.
(03:20):
Do you?
Yeah.
I do.
I remember.
I listened to her episode.
Sarah, did you listen?
I think I listened,but it was forever ago.
I don't remember at all.
Like, how that went orwhat the conversation was.
Zero memory.
(03:40):
Yeah, it's been a long time.
Speaking of, okay.
So we've been in reunion for14 years as of the time of this
recording, which is pretty amazing.
Sarah, you were nine.
Amy, you were 12.
And so we've already passed the markwhere I've been in your life more
(04:01):
than not over the halfway point.
Do you remember that it was that long?
Do you have a clear delineationof before Haley and after Haley?
I do, for sure.
It was, yeah, I think really alreadya pivotal time in my life, right?
I was 12, almost a teenager, andso I have a really clear pre Haley,
(04:25):
post Haley memory in my life.
It was like, oh, and I havethree siblings, not two.
So yeah, it was a really big deal.
Definitely a significantlife event in my childhood.
When I called our brother to tellhim we were doing this, he said,
(04:45):
yeah, what I remember is we satdown to dinner and all of a sudden
there was a secret surprise sister.
Sarah, do you remember that?
I absolutely remember that, and I think,I don't remember the dinner itself,
(05:07):
but I vividly remember after dinnerthat mom or dad had been like, we have
something to tell you, and I remembera long pause, and dad looking the most
nervous I have probably ever seen him.
He is a very clear speaker, he alwayshas something to say, and it was a little
(05:35):
of him trying to get the words out andfumbling almost before saying it, I
very much remember that very clearly.
Oh my gosh, that's crazy youremember that so clearly.
I don't remember theactual moment they told us.
Yeah.
I actually don't, I remember afterand my, I was feeling so surprised
(05:57):
and I remember that, but your memoryis so clear for the fact that.
Yeah it was such a thing of I don'thave a lot of memories across all
my life of Dad being frazzled.
He was nervous and frazzled to tellus this news, and so I think it was
(06:17):
so out of the ordinary that I justvery much remember he was super
nervous to have that conversation.
So you don't remember that, Amy, butwhat do you remember about that time?
I remember I was feeling really upsetafter because as I don't know if your
(06:41):
listeners would know but we grew up ina very Christian kind of environment and
so for me having premarital sex was likethe worst thing you could possibly do and
so I was just shocked to hear that my dadhad a baby outside of marriage when he
was super young and so that was reallyearth shattering for me as a 12 year old.
(07:06):
Totally.
It's like the person I thoughtI knew is no more, right?
Cause you have this picture of who yourparents are and yeah, totally shattering.
Yeah.
So I remember that yourneighbor's dog was named Haley.
And so I felt really offended by thatbecause that was the first Haley in
(07:30):
your life was a dog Haley but guesswhat I think that dog is dead so I win.
That is correct.
And I don't even remember that as my firstHaley just so you know, you're the first
Haley I don't even think about the dog.
I remember the dog sorry, Haley.
(07:51):
Was it a boy dog or a girl dog?
It was a boy.
It was a boy!
And they, the only reason they had namedthe dog Haley was because they let their
eight year old daughter name the dog,who was like a year younger than me.
So it was probably, she probably namedhim when she was like, six and she
(08:13):
wanted the boy dog to be named Haley.
So they were like, okay,I guess we're doing that.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
Okay, I remember sitting downto write you guys emails because
that was our first communication.
Do you remember emailing me?
(08:33):
Do you remember anything that Isent you or what you sent back?
I remember all the emails.
I was so excited to email you.
It was the best thing.
I remember checking my emailsto see if Haley responded.
Oh my god!
I'm showing Amy a Full,single space typed.
(08:54):
This is the first email you sent me.
It is a full page.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, this has got to be 500 words.
Yeah, and so I remember feeling, Ithink, so special because here was this
adult who, how old were you when we met?
27?
Yeah, 27, 28.
(09:15):
Yeah.
27! And I just thought you were socool, and you wanted to talk to me,
and hear about my life, and you caredabout who my friends were and what I
like to do, and so I felt so special.
And I remember we met you notthat long before my 13th birthday,
and you bought me this necklace.
(09:36):
Which I still have.
It's very wait, I'll go get it.
What?
I don't remember.
That was sweet.
I don't remember that.
Yeah, you bought me this necklace.
Oh my gosh.
And I remember you wrote me this note,and you were like, oh this lady hand makes
this jewelry, and each piece is unique
Aww!
And I think that's like us as humansbecause God makes each of us unique
(09:59):
and you wrote this to me and seeI remember it so you I yeah, I
just felt so special and so loved.
Good job past Haley.
Wow, that's pretty good.
I love that.
I think my experience was so differentbecause I was so young, right?
That as a nine year old, I don't have avery vivid before and after of you, and I
(10:31):
really do not remember a lot from emails.
I barely even remember emails.
I could not tell you a singlething that either of us said.
I think at the beginning ofreunion, I was just so excited.
(10:53):
I was confused as to why therewere big feelings about it, right?
I was that young that I did not understandwhat a complex situation it was.
I was just like, yay!
I have a bonus big sister!
That's so exciting.
And I think when we maybe did a firstvideo call with you and Nick, it
(11:20):
had been screenshotted or something.
Somehow I had a picture of you andI remember showing the picture to my
friends and being like, guess what?
I have a like older big sister.
And that was it.
And I know that there was a lotof intentionality on your end
(11:43):
building relationship, right?
And starting to write emails andus emailing back and forth, which
really, I think I was just so readyand happy to accept and be like, yay!
This is fantastic!
And that was really it.
I don't remember a whole lotof early years whatsoever.
(12:08):
I think that's really lovely forme to think about how for Isaiah,
he doesn't know any different.
You guys were always in our liveswhen he was born, and I love that.
For you, Sarah, like you don't reallyremember before Haley too much.
It's not this big delineation, notthat there's anything wrong with
(12:31):
that, but that's a special thingfor you being so young in it.
And I do remember waiting for emails.
getting back.
Amy, I don't know if you remember this,but you did like a full photo tour
of the house before we ever visited.
Like I have a full, oh yeah, from thethe house you lived in when we first met.
I have a full photo tour.
(12:53):
Oh my gosh.
I don't even remember that.
Wow.
Yep.
Yep.
So y'all spent time doing that.
There's a lot of pictures of the dog.
Not dog Haley, but your dog.
Do you remember?
Do you remember when we first met?
Did you feel like therewas an instant connection?
Or do you feel like ittook more time to build.
(13:14):
I remember Sarah basically sittingin my lap the whole weekend wanting
to snuggle up, which was really cute.
Yeah, I think I felt like therewas an instant connection.
And I was just like, great,this is my big sister.
And that was really it.
For, my small brain, that's as far asI got with any of the details, was just
(13:39):
like, okay, this is my big sister, andI was super happy and excited about it.
I think for me, it was different becauseI had been so used to emailing with
you, and I felt so connected to you overemail, and then I met you in person,
and all of a sudden, the sound of yourvoice is really new for me, and the
(13:59):
way you speak is really new for me,and so it was almost like a switch.
I was so excited to meet you, and thenI was like, wait, this is different
than the person I was emailing.
It was like putting thetwo together, right?
Not that you acted any differently, butI wasn't used to you as a full human.
I had just had a pen pal almost.
It's like love is blind.
(14:20):
Like we met in the pods and you'retalking and then you meet after and
it's oh, it's a person with a bodyand they're not like I pictured.
And
Yes, we had to go to phasetwo of the experiment.
Yeah.
Of the experiment.
Yeah, so true.
I think something I remember frommeeting in person for the first
(14:43):
time was that I was more awkwardaround Nick than I was with you.
Because I think, as a young girl, itwas so much easier to be comfortable
around women than it was men and so itdefinitely took more time to be like,
okay, also she comes with a husbandand that's great, but also who is he?
(15:08):
What's, what's the vibe and what isour relationship gonna look like?
That definitely took more time tobuild, I think, than it did with you.
Yeah, okay.
You probably won't remember this.
Amy wrote in her emailto me in the first one.
She's I think Sarah's probablydisappointed that you're already
(15:30):
married because she would have likedto be a flower girl or something.
I think that is so true.
And Amy was right, exactly right on that.
That's amazing.
Okay, are there any similaritiesthat you guys have noticed
(15:53):
between either us or me and dad?
Anything that's poppedup through the years?
I definitely notice.
Your and dad's sense of humor isreally similar, which I think was so
fun for me, especially as a teenager,because our dad has always been the
really funny one in the household.
(16:15):
And so to see a woman who was also reallyfunny, it was like, oh wow, here's Haley
with the same kind of sense of humor.
So that was definitely a similarityI noticed between you and dad.
And I also really remember lovingthe fact that we look pretty similar.
Because I think mom and Sarah lookpretty similar, but I had been
(16:38):
the female in our house who tookmore on dad's side of the family.
And so I just remember being like,oh my gosh, I think my sister is
so pretty and we look the same.
That's so special when I met you,so that was really nice, I think,
to feel like I had this similarity.
I'm gonna get all teary.
(17:00):
Oh, I wasn't anticipating that.
Sarah, what about you?
Do you remember anysimilarities, or even now, like?
I definitely do.
Even just you and dad on paper, Ithink if dad was born when you were
(17:22):
born, I think it's very possible hewould have a podcast about something.
Is that inherently?
I think our whole family our allof us siblings are very confident
public speakers and love reading andwriting and are very well spoken and
(17:46):
I think that all comes from dad andhis, he is so much of that, and that
we're all very passionate people.
Also I think that's a hugesimilarity between all of us.
But I definitely remembersomething from my childhood.
(18:09):
Dad had gotten me a comic book.
It was like a treasury ofall of the Ziggy comics.
I don't think it's a very well known comicseries, but essentially, the vibe of the
comics is that Ziggy is this kinda oddlooking, funny guy, and the humor is all
(18:34):
very sarcastic and skeptical, and thatDad loved those comics, and Mom did not.
These comics are horrible!
They're depressing!
And he had given a book of them tome, and I loved them, and thought they
(18:55):
were so so fun and entertaining andI think that we definitely share some
of the like more sarcastic humor andmore like deep skepticism like in being
funny and I think that's definitelya similarity between us and dad also.
(19:20):
Do you guys remember one time Icame and I wrote little notes on
everybody's mirrors or windows I had Ion a white, with a whiteboard marker.
And because I did it right beforewe left for the airport, it was
like a secret kind of thing.
I don't even know what I wrote.
I don't know.
Just cutesy little notes, I'm sure.
(19:42):
And y'all thought dad had done itbecause our writing is so similar.
And he's a lefty.
I don't understand how handwritingis genetic, but do you remember that?
I absolutely remember that and beingshocked to learn that it was you that
wrote the note on the board and just beinglike, wow, like, how is that even possible
(20:06):
that your handwriting is so similar?
It was just such a funny thing.
I, yeah, I was like, what?
I don't, I didn't understand thatyou guys would think it was him
because why would he write, Idon't know, the whiteboard marker.
Okay.
Can you think of any surprises foryou in terms of our differences?
I remember when I met you guyswere vegetarian at the time.
(20:30):
And I know Dad had written thatin an email, but I didn't act
like that was for, I thought hewas being joke around about it.
I didn't understand that.
No, you guys were in fact vegetarian.
And it was a huge dealbecause when we visited.
He made a steak when we came.
Do you remember that?
(20:50):
I do remember that and it was a reallybig deal that dad was making steak.
It was the talk of the town fora week before you guys came.
Scandalous.
I think for me the biggest thing wasknowing that you weren't Catholic.
Oh.
That was a huge deal because eventhough you were Christian, the vast
(21:16):
majority, especially at that point inmy life as a nine year old, we were
in Catholic homeschool groups and veryCatholic circles to the point where
all of my best friends were Catholicand their families were Catholic and
some of them had wayward older siblingswho weren't Catholic anymore, right?
(21:40):
Which was a huge deal and I knew that atthe time that was just a really big deal.
So I remember, I think after maybethe first visit or something, having
a conversation with mom about it.
And me being concerned about youbecause you weren't Catholic,
(22:03):
which is so funny now, I'm like,oh boy, I'm very deep in that.
I even worked at a church at the timeI was, all in evangelical Christianity.
You couldn't get more Christian.
I'm like,
100 percent.
But I think at some point youwore black nail polish and that's
(22:29):
really concerning behavior.
I remember that.
I remember the nail polish.
What?
Yes, that was very edgy for us.
We were like, whoa, shewears black nail polish.
Yeah, we were not allowed to wearblack nail polish which is so funny.
Oh my gosh, I didn't know.
(22:49):
That's good.
I'm sure there was other scandalousthings I did that I did not know were.
Also remember you had a streak inyour hair, like you had a pink streak.
And that was also edgy.
We were like, whoa, she dyesher hair a different color.
But I was gonna say, the difference thatI remember was, I think, maybe your first
(23:11):
visit when we had family game night.
And our family is very loud, there'slots of trash talking, there's lots
of hype and excitement, and it isa big deal, we're very competitive.
And I remember, Haley, thatyou had to leave the table,
because it was too much for you!
(23:32):
And, I just re I was so surprised,because this was normal to me.
This is how you play games.
And so the fact that it was toomuch for you, I couldn't understand.
Oh, I remember that.
It was Monopoly.
And it was so intense.
And I am actually avery competitive person.
(23:55):
I'm sure I've told you guys this gamebefore, this story before, but I remember
playing this game with this other coupleand it was, it's called Ticket to Ride.
I'm sure lots of people have playedTicket to Ride and you have to build
these pathways to other cities.
And there's only so many ways youcan get to a city, and if you don't
make it there's a big point penalty.
(24:17):
And we were playing with this othercouple, and the wife had a meltdown,
because her husband took the lasttrack that she needed to win the game.
And she had a temper tantrum in frontof us, and, we were in our early
to mid twenties at the time, andI was just like, this is the most
embarrassing thing I've ever witnessed.
(24:39):
I'm never gonna be this again.
I cannot be this competitive.
It is not that serious.
I still remember it.
It was yesterday.
Anyway, so I really toned itback on the competitiveness.
So when you guys were playing Monopolylike it was real money and you were
gonna actually be like so wealthywhen you won this game, I was so torn
(25:04):
because that is my nature is to be, butI couldn't trash talk my new sibling.
I wasn't going to get in there.
Like it was like a very I can'talienate you in the beginning.
And this is I can't, I've neverseen a family act this way,
which I know lots of families do.
This is how game night is at my house now.
(25:25):
Like my kids are just the same as supercompetitive as you guys were, are.
Yeah, I remember that.
It was, I didn't know what to do.
And I had left and Ifelt so awkward about it.
It was bad.
Yeah.
Oh, I could totally see that.
You don't want to trash talkthe new family that you're
trying to win over in a way.
(25:45):
The kids?
Yeah.
The kids?
I was an adult.
I'm gonna trash talk Sarah?
No.
But you guys were super into it.
Into it.
Oh my gosh.
And now Monopoly isIsaiah's favorite game.
And I always win.
And he still wants to play.
I don't know.
(26:06):
Can you give us the practical, like, howhave we stayed connected over the years
as you've grown into, young adulthood now.
Now you're, I don't know, can Ieven say young adults anymore?
I don't think so.
You're just adults.
I feel like I'm too old for young adults.
Okay.
Young adults.
(26:27):
Sarah, you can be ayoung adult, but not Amy.
Okay.
Yeah.
From emails to what have we doneover the years to keep in touch?
I think it's definitely evolved over time.
At the beginning it was emails andthen I think there definitely were some
years where we didn't end up talkingas much and then it's evolved into
(26:51):
more texting and more phone calls, andthen as I've gotten even older, visits,
either you visiting me, me visiting you.
So I would say it's changed becausemy life has changed so much since
I was 12 when we met, right?
Yeah, I think same for me, in termsof emails, even just having each
(27:12):
other on Instagram and being able torespond to stories and seeing each
other's, life updates in that wayand I think we don't talk right now
as much as we realistically could.
We do intentional phone calls everynow and then, but it's not a regular
(27:35):
weekly communication between the twoof us, but it also, to me, feels very
much like my relationships with Amyand Daniel also in that, oh, it's
the phase of life, and it's, there'sso much love there, even without a
(27:57):
weekly update and check in, right?
And I know, in the future, that will alsoevolve into a season of talking more,
or less, or whatever that looks like.
But it feels like a prettyaverage sibling connection to
me, where there's a big age gap.
(28:19):
Like it just feels so normal of yeah,there's not constant communication.
And also this is just kind of relationshipwhen one of you is in school and the
other one just graduated school andthe other one is an adult with kids.
With almost a teenager.
(28:40):
Literally.
Yeah.
I do appreciate howy'all roast how old I am.
That's good.
This is making me think.
I'm almost the age thatyou were when we met.
And that's crazy because in myhead you were so old and I do
(29:00):
not feel that old right now.
It doesn't help that I was married.
That just makes you feelolder anyway, right?
It's oh, you're a real adult.
Fair enough.
Even though I got married when Iwas 20, okay, let's go to the hard.
Do you think of what's the most difficultthing that's been, has there been things
(29:21):
difficult for us to navigate or anyparticularly super challenging times?
I think post reunion initially waspretty tough for me because as I said,
I had to re know and discover aboutwho my dad was and what my family was.
I even remember going to summercamp that summer and one of the
(29:43):
classic questions you're askedis, how many siblings do you have?
And I was like, three, it usedto be this easy question and then
all of a sudden I felt stuck.
And so that was a really tough time andI think, I know the adults all went to
therapy, you and Nick and mom and dad,the adults all went to therapy and it
would have been awesome in hindsightif I had been brought into the therapy
(30:06):
because I think that I was reallygoing through a rough time and that
all of the dynamics and the differentboundaries that were put in place with
communication, which were super helpfulfor the adults, were really tough on me.
And so it would have been just sonice if, I had the one, piece of
advice to give people in reunion.
It's don't leave anyone out.
(30:26):
Everyone is going to be affectedby the reunion, and if you're doing
therapy, everyone needs to be included.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I think for me, because I was so young, Idon't think I went through any difficult
periods with it, but I do remember therewas an emotional weight around the rest of
(30:54):
the family, and that for a certain amountof time Mom and Dad were really going
through it, and, were in therapy and wereworking through things, but that I had
no idea what they were working through.
(31:15):
There was, like, I think, in manyways, the communication could have been
better, and maybe, like Amy said, itrealistically would have been helpful
for me to also go to a therapist.
And to have some maybe mediatedconversations about what was happening.
But I just remember in my head, youwere my sister and that was really
(31:42):
exciting and good but that mom anddad are really not okay and having a
difficult time with something which, evenas an adult, what's funny is that I'm
like I have no idea what was going on.
I still don't know what the therapy,between all of you was and what was
(32:07):
addressed, and I have no idea, and Idefinitely think it was really difficult
to know that there was this hugeemotional thing going on, that half
of the family wasn't okay, and that Ihad no concept of what was happening,
(32:27):
and I think there could have been someextra communication to dumb it down to
a nine year old's level, almost, right?
Of I think I needed something to havea better idea of what was happening, to
feel more secure, I think, because theredefinitely was a time period where I
(32:48):
just knew the family did not feel stable.
Amy, do you know what theadults were all fussing about?
I do, and I did know at thetime, which I think was tough
almost in a way that I knew.
I know, Sarah, you're like,oh, I wish I would have known.
But see, I did know, and then that mademe worried, I think, for the adults.
(33:13):
So yeah, I was privy to whatwas going on, which was tough.
It was just a tough situation.
Reunion is hard.
There's no easy, there's noeasy answer or path or system.
I'm trying to think about what youwould have thought were the issues.
(33:36):
Even in my mind, I'm like, whatdid we talk about in therapy?
I know we talked about having rulesof how many communications and it was
very much like trying to right sizetheir relationships into more normalcy.
That's what I remember and I had Isaiah,pretty soon into reunion and so it was
(34:03):
like, oh, now I have a kid and it's whatare you going to be in terms of what
is grandparenting going to look like?
And that's the stuff I remember.
Sarah, is that what you remember, Amy?
Yeah, no, that's what I remember,and I think those rules surrounding
communication were what was really hardon me, because, I mentioned earlier,
(34:26):
you were this older person who wasall of a sudden a support for me and
interested in me, and I was a prettyshy kid it was a really big deal for
me to have someone like you in my life.
And then, with the communicationrules, it blocked off our relationship.
I wasn't supposed to have private emailsback and forth anymore between you and me.
(34:49):
And it was like, all of a sudden,it's oh, here's the this person had
been brought into my life and thenall of a sudden was taken away.
And I remember sharing that.
I did share it.
And was then told, explained why therules were put in place, but I think
what I got from that situation wasthen like, okay, what I need doesn't
(35:10):
matter I'm not a priority here, we needto do this for the sake of the adults
and the dynamic, and I got that butit was like a big heartbreak for me.
It was very painful, I think especiallybecause the introduction of you into
our lives had created a lot of pain andstruggle for me internally and then I
got used to it and got close to you andthat was like, oh and upheaval again.
(35:35):
That's really hard.
Yeah, and I have so much grace forthe adults involved so much grace.
Everyone was doing their best.
It was a really hard situationeveryone was doing what they
thought was best right and as anadult, I totally understand that.
Yeah.
Aww.
Little Amy.
I know, right?
(35:56):
Poor little 12 year old Amy.
Aww.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now you can grade me.
Let's talk about, Idisrupted the birth order.
Daniel is no longer the oldest.
I'm the oldest by so manyyears, apparently, like decades.
For the listeners, you cangrade me on big sister duties.
(36:18):
As someone who grew up as an onlychild, how am I doing as a big sister?
You're doing great as a big sister.
I absolutely love havingyou as a big sister.
I often tell people how grateful Iam that you came back into our lives
because I missed out on you when youwere younger and when I was younger
and so the fact that I get to haveyou in my life is just incredible.
(36:42):
You've been such a support to me and Ithink the age gap, which I know you love
when I bring up, works out to be reallycool for me because I have this person
who does have more life experience thanme and you can be a support for me.
And there was one particular timeabout three, four years ago now that
I went through a really bad breakupand Haley flew out to come see me.
(37:06):
She flew out for the weekend and wespent an Airbnb weekend together and
traveled around and the amount ofsupport and love that I've gotten from
you has just been so meaningful for me.
I can't picture my life without you.
That's so nice.
Thank you.
Sarah?
I think you're doing greaton older sister duties.
(37:30):
Older sister.
You called yourself that.
You can't complain.
I'm so sorry, but you are older than me.
I don't know.
By so much.
I know.
Sarah, don't double down.
If it helps, I also callAmy my older sister.
(37:51):
You are both older than me.
Oh, she's very old.
Yeah.
Ancient, one would say.
Yeah, I think it is also been so lovelyfor me to have you a part of our lives.
There were definitely many yearsthat I was not close with Amy.
(38:13):
While we were living together, wereally did not, grow closer until
after high school and after we wereboth moving out and starting to make
our own life choices, which is, Ifeel like, very common for siblings.
And I think that because you never livedwith us, we always had that relationship.
(38:37):
Of there was no underlying tension andfighting about who's cleaning the bathroom
that week, which meant that you've alwaysjust been a supportive role and that
you have always just been a comfortablebig sister that I could talk about
(38:58):
with different things and that you wereolder was also a blessing to me, too.
There was one period when I was, Ithink it was the summer when I was
in grade, maybe going into grade 8or 9, that I had come to stay with
you and Nick for a few weeks after
(39:21):
I had surgery.
And you were helping becauseI couldn't pick up the babies.
Yeah, which to me was the best thingever and it was so special for me
to have a safe place outside ofmy family that was also my family.
(39:43):
Of this isn't my house where thingsare, there's different things going
on always with the other siblings andmom and dad and it was such a safe
haven for me to be able to have familywho I loved that, yeah, were able to,
(40:03):
support me and be there for me if atthat time, my mental health was so
not good and I remember having so manybeautiful conversations, and us hanging
out, and having girl time, and somany, yeah, so many blessings in that.
Okay, I'm fine.
Everything's fine.
(40:24):
What, God, what an honor.
I, Okay.
Sorry I'm tearing up over here.
I told y'all we're gonna keep itlight and fluffy and I'm gonna
keep it super professional.
That's just, it's a sweet moment.
That's nice.
What's it like for you havingme be a podcaster and talking
(40:47):
about adoption for my job now.
I think it's fun.
I'm like, oh, my sister has a podcast.
She's big in the adopteepodcasting and adoptee world.
And sometimes I'll tell peopleto go look up your podcast.
They'll be like, oh, send it to me.
So I'll send them an episode andthey'll listen, which is fun.
(41:08):
You're helping get me downloads?
All right.
Oh, yeah.
That's pretty good.
I think it is so wonderful and I am alwaysso proud to talk about that and share
that with people I think a lot of you knowthe very Christian spaces that we were
(41:32):
in growing up, many of them very much, Iheard a lot of messaging growing up that
was, adoption is the answer, it preventsabortion, and therefore, it is fantastic.
And I've had conversations with many ofmy friends and different people in my
(41:53):
life, and I'm always so happy to sharethat this is not a perfect solution.
This is not a perfect answer and thatthere are, many flaws and difficult
things and lifelong impact to adopteesand I feel so proud as a sister that
(42:18):
this is something that you went throughthat had a huge impact on you as a
person and your life and so proudthat you share your story with people
and that you have created a beautifulspace that you needed when you were 20,
(42:41):
like I am so proud of that and reallyjust think it's the best thing ever.
Oh, thank you.
Amy, have you have your thoughts onadoption changed over the years from
either from me or listening to the show?
I know you used to listen for a while.
I don't know if you everlistened, Sarah, but
(43:01):
I did.
I used to listen as I was falling asleep.
Happy to serve you to dreamland.
My thoughts on adoption havedefinitely changed over the years.
When we first met, as Sarah said, I wasjust hearing the Christian messaging
of adoption is this beautiful, goodthing and everyone should do it.
(43:24):
I even remember, like, when I wasmaybe 11 just before I met you
I went through a phase where Iwanted mom and dad to adopt a baby.
I was like, mom, you anddad should adopt a baby.
Yeah I was fully bought in to adoptionand so I think, I've really appreciated
getting to hear all the complexitiesabout adoption, and I often talk
(43:48):
about people, talk to people about thegrief that goes along with adoption,
and I've felt that grief, right?
The grief of missing out on knowingyou for so long, and so my thoughts
on adoption have definitely changed.
I'm no longer yes,adoption is always good.
And I see the grief and heartbreak onthe side of the biological family and
(44:10):
for the adoptee and all of the mentalhealth issues that go along with the
trauma of being relinquished at birth.
So I guess I've radicalized everyone.
Excellent.
My master plan has all come into fruition.
(44:30):
I think as a very young person, likeI would say probably as a 16, 17 year
old, from knowing your story and havinglimited understanding of everything I
(44:51):
knew at that point that I was like, okay,adoption will never be an option for me.
That if I got pregnant, I would neverplace my child up for adoption, which
I think, obviously there's a lot ofprivilege that comes with that in that
I know I have family who would supportme, I have a lot of financial support,
(45:16):
but I do think that's significant.
And that, for me, I've known fora long time from having you a
part of our lives that I was like,that would never be an option.
Wow, thank you.
Thank you guys for your candor.
I really appreciate youbeing willing to share today.
It's just been so lovely to hearall these memories and stories and I
(45:42):
have tingly love feelings in my body.
It's so nice.
Do you have any last thoughts,advice for people, especially for
people who have kids in reunion,like you shared some things today
like I literally had not thoughtof, and I feel silly that I didn't.
Even those things are helpful advice, butany last thoughts that you want to share?
(46:06):
With folks.
I think I would just reiteratewhat I said before that adoption
really affects everyone.
Reunion really affects everyone andI've had to process through my own grief
and my own feelings and I think that ifyou are in reunion and you have kids.
Take everyone to therapy.
I'm certainly biased because I'm inschool to be a psychotherapist right now
(46:28):
but family therapy is really helpful.
So take your kids to therapy.
It's gonna have an impact on themand I would say that it's gonna
impact everyone differently.
I know our brother was impacted verydifferently than I was and I was impacted
very differently than Sarah was, andso everyone's gonna have really unique
needs in this situation so spending timeto, as best as possible, support each
(46:50):
person in whatever they need is awesome.
Thank you.
Sarah?
I think I would just saythat, are we, is it 14 years?
14 years out, I think we're all doingreally well, and I know I am so grateful
(47:11):
to have Haley a part of our lives andI just would give hope to anyone that's
in the trenches of processing with a newfamily that there's so much hope and so
much work went into that on all sides.
(47:32):
But, that I'm so happy that you were braveenough to send that first text to Dad.
Sarah, you're so sweet.
You're such a sweet person.
I love your optimism and everything.
That is so true.
Aww.
I have loved being a big sisterand have worked really hard at it.
(47:58):
And it's just been truly such an honorto watch you both grow up and Daniel too.
And he's got his own little familynow and to get to be there for The
milestones, the breakups, the weddings,the babies it's just been just amazing.
(48:20):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you both for sharing.
I know it's not easy to be public butwelcome, welcome to the public podcast.
Thank you for having us.
It's an honor to getto be on your podcast.
That's such a special thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so happy that we were able to dothis and so happy to be able to share a
(48:42):
little bit of our side of that journey.
Aren't they amazing?
Our brother is equally as amazing and wehad this just really special conversation.
Even once we had finished recording, westayed on and chatted about how powerful
(49:06):
it was to unpack these things and likereally have a good discussion about them.
And we talked about some heavier topics aswell, but I just thought, wow, like how,
miraculous that after all these yearsand all the work that everyone put
in that we've built this beautifulconnection in all its variations.
(49:33):
So now I get to be an auntie.
And I have a sister in law and I'm goingto be gaining a brother in law shortly.
And we're reaching all these milestonesand I'm watching my sisters decide
on their careers and pursue them.
And it just, it's just so cool to beat this new stage of life together.
(49:57):
And if we hadn't put thework in, I don't know.
Where we'd be, we wouldn't be connected.
So I do hope that this doesbring you hope, like Sarah said.
I hope that this celebratoryconversation was a happy moment
(50:17):
that you could share in our joy.
And God, I really, it was reallyspecial to bring them to you.
And I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
And I told Amy and Sarah when we weredone, I'm like, even if this never went
to air, this was just like the best.
Here it is for you.
Thank you for celebrating300 episodes with us.
(50:42):
And I know I've beentelling you about this.
I'm working on this brand new project.
It is, it's all happening, and you'll behearing more soon, but there's so many
good things happening to be excited about,and advancing adoptee advocacy and family
preservation and lots of good stuff.
(51:05):
So thank you for listening.
Thank you for celebrating300 episodes with me.
I still can't really believe it.
That's a lot of episodes.
That's a lot of talking.
So, I'll just say goodnight, Amy.
Hopefully this helped you fall asleep and.
There's humbling moments, right?
It was overall so sweet, butit's come on, you know what?
(51:25):
Tell me in the comments, does anyoneelse fall asleep to our conversations?
I have my sleep podcast too.
So it is a compliment.
I hope you laughed with us and enjoyed,thank you so much for listening.
Let's talk again soon.
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