June 13, 2025 • 48 mins
306 | [Healing Series] Money and Worth with Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC
For our last episode before our summer break, we’re talking about adoptees and money! Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC is back and teaching us all about money, worthiness, the obvious commodification of children, the basics. Marta said it best in this episode, ”if you're adopted, it's not even about the money. It's about belonging, respect, feeling seen, feeling acknowledged, mattering to the other people and equality.”
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Episode Transcript
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Haley Radke (00:00):
This podcast is for educational and
entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to adopteeson the podcast where adoptees
(00:20):
discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
This is a special episode in our healingseries where I interview therapists
who are also adoptees themselves.
Today's show is also special becauseit's our last episode before our summer
break, and I'm gonna tell you all aboutour other summer plans and some exciting
(00:45):
announcements at the end of the show.
Before we get started though, I wannapersonally invite you to join our
Patreon adoptee community today overon adopteeson.com/community, which
helps support you and also the show tosupport more adoptees around the world.
Links to everything we'll be talking abouttoday or on the website, adopteeson.com.
(01:07):
Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcomeback to Adoptees On.
I was gonna count how many timesyou've been on, but I haven't so many.
You might be the most,
you might have the most AdopteesOn episodes at this point.
Anyway.
Marta Isabella SierraCifuentes, welcome back, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hi Haley. (01:30):
undefined
Haley Radke (01:31):
Have you kept track?
Are we at double digits yet?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think we're at double digits. (01:34):
undefined
I think I also have not counted.
Haley Radke (01:38):
If you count Patreon.
For sure.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: For sure. (01:40):
undefined
Yes.
And there's some clips from thePatreon that are on the public.
Haley Radke (01:45):
Oh, that's true.
It's so true.
So yeah, you're everywhere.
Okay so speaking of Patreon,you come on pretty regularly.
We have a show once a month wherewe do Ask An Adoptee Therapist,
and this was the impetus for ourconversation today 'cause someone
submitted a question that kind of like.
(02:06):
Lit off all the fireworks in everybody'sbrains because it just spiraled out
into a bunch of different topics.
The question was an adoptee findingout that she was not gonna inherit the
same as her biological moms kept kidswere, the will is different for her and
(02:26):
the big feelings associated with that.
And it just brought us all tothinking about adoptees and money.
Like it's a big deal.
Of course, everybody uses money andI'm curious what your first thoughts
are on how does being adopted evenshape our relationship with money?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think the relationship, first (02:48):
undefined
of all is just an interesting one.
I worked with a money coach yearsago in Seattle, and that was
when I was doing exclusively workin the eating disorders world.
And something she said to me in one ofour first meetings was so impactful,
and I still think about it all thetime and I share it with clients.
The biggest difference between likesubstance abuse and because we can
(03:10):
have addictive behavior with foodand with money is you don't need
to take substances to survive.
You can cut it out ofyour life completely.
But if you have an unhealthyrelationship with food or money,
you have to figure it out.
You cannot live without havinga relationship with food or
having a relationship with money.
So sometimes there's also aninteresting dynamic there too,
(03:33):
around the food and the money.
Like maybe we were restrictivein one place and really out of
control in the other, or vice versa.
I just thought that was an interestingway to think about it and I think I know
you've explored that a lot on the podcast.
I feel like our relationship with foodas adoptees and our relationship with our
bodies, and so yeah, money is part of thatreally complicated relationship with like
(03:57):
our brain chemistry, the spending and thesaving and then yes, of course there's
the really essential piece of that ourlives started with money changing hands,
and how does that affect how we feelabout ourselves as commodified people?
Haley Radke (04:18):
Can we pause there because I think that's one thing that a lot
of people really don't think about.
Being commodified and money changinghands, and whether or not it was
a, private a hundred thousanddollars adoption so you could get
(04:40):
the race of child that you wantedor a public, adopt from foster care
situation where maybe the adoptiveparent is the one receiving money.
Like money is happening.
It's happening in all the situations.
Someone is profiting, whether it'sthe government or the agency or the
(05:05):
adoptive parent and oh my gosh, I'veseen so many people talking about the
adoption tax credits and it's just sowhere's the therapy tax credit for us?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Then, of course tied into all of that (05:21):
undefined
in that moment and the money changinghands and like the salesmanship of
the adoption agencies, like all ofthis really yucky pieces is also this
idea that financially stable, quoteunquote adoptive parents is such a
piece of what makes them more qualifiedto raise us than our birth parents.
(05:45):
And I think that's also supercomplex because we do not all get
adopted into wealthy families.
Some families use every penny thatthey have, and then that child grows
up with a lot of financial difficultyand maybe even with the knowledge
that like their adoption is partof what put the family into a rough
(06:07):
financial situation to start out with.
And so I think there's this illusionthat if someone has enough money
to purchase a baby that they'rea certain in a certain place.
But I think as with all spending, right?
Like we can all figure out how to spenda lot of money, that's not necessarily
reflective of like how much financialstability or security we might have.
(06:32):
There are ways to get things that areout of your financial comfort zone.
Out of your budget.
I don't know.
Words are failing me.
Haley Radke (06:40):
I vividly remember talking with Renee from Saving Our Sisters.
So as a charity that is promotesfamily preservation and helps
moms in crisis get through thattemporary time period of crisis.
And I remember her telling me aboutwhen she placed her son for adoption
(07:02):
'cause she was in a temporary financialcrisis and then like later finding out.
Like the differences in salaries betweenher, actually very well paying job and
the adoptive family that adopted her son.
And it was significant.
They were significantly lower.
(07:22):
And I was like,
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes, (07:23):
undefined
Haley Radke (07:24):
okay.
Like it's true.
Like you don't know if you're like, youdon't know where your child is gonna go.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah. (07:30):
undefined
Haley Radke (07:32):
Okay, so coming to terms with the commodification of it all, most of
us don't think about that till later on.
And so do you think that's likeunderneath, like that we have some
idea of that subconsciously that isaffecting she's nodding her head at me.
Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (07:50):
undefined
I, this is embarrassing story,but I'm gonna tell it because
I think it's important.
I had I think I had so much shameabout it as a kid and so much
consciousness about it, and so muchinsecurity about my difference about
being the only kid, like in my school,in my area that was adopted, that I
(08:11):
weaponized, I turned it around, right?
Like we can often do whateverwe're insecure about, we can
turn it around and weaponize it.
So when kids would tease me aboutbeing adopted or come at me about it, I
would say you might not even have beenplanned, but I was bought and paid for.
Haley Radke (08:27):
But I've heard that.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I know it's terrible and I'm embarrassed (08:28):
undefined
about it now, but I just neededsomething to feel better about and I
think because there was so much shameabout it, I like switched the narrative
on it to try to feel empowered insome way to try to feel chosen, right?
As the story had been told, I wastrying to feel, wanted and chosen and
(08:51):
special when actually I felt discarded.
Haley Radke (08:54):
Yes.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And inhuman. (08:55):
undefined
Haley Radke (08:56):
Yeah, that's really profound and okay.
So I've been on, I've been on,I'm back on TikTok because I'm
using it to work on my new show.
Anyway I've seen a lot of videosworth people talking about that like
from a fully positive perspective.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (09:15):
undefined
Haley Radke (09:15):
It's like you see it, but you can't see it.
Like you're almost there.
You're almost there.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (09:21):
undefined
Haley Radke (09:21):
But you don't wanna pop their bubbles.
Oh.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And then I think like how that unfolds (09:24):
undefined
over time, is this really stickyrelationship with money as we get older,
like the ways that money can be used ascontrol around managing adoptees behavior
starting, I think in like adolescencemaybe with like control around allowances.
(09:49):
If you step outta line, youdon't get your allowance.
And I think all of that, dosome biological parents do that?
Sure.
But I think the way that it lands onus is different because money already
has this different weight aroundworthiness and so if adoptees are
always like bracing to be abandoned, reabandoned, sent back, I think we're also
(10:12):
bracing to be financially abandoned.
And so these threats, I think theyland different on us and create yeah, a
complicated relationship into adulthood.
Haley Radke (10:24):
This is what's coming to mind is this combination of that, the
financial safety and the adoptee loyalty,so for people who don't know what that
is, it's like you're obligated to be loyalto your adoptive family because of just
those things, like as a teenager, arethey gonna provide transportation for you?
(10:48):
Are they gonna help you buy a car?
Are they gonna help you pay for college?
If you start, you're probablythinking critically adoption
about adoption possibly.
But if you start speaking outcritically about adoption all of
those things can be taken away.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (11:06):
undefined
Haley Radke (11:07):
And.
I'm thinking of a bunchof different things.
There's all kinds of scenarios, right?
We see adoptees getting sentaway to camps to change behavior
becoming homeless, just kicked out.
Like all of those kinds of pieces.
So that can control and forcedloyalty, whether or not that's
(11:30):
really what they're experiencing.
How do I put this?
You know what I mean?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: The choice is, ends up being for, I (11:34):
undefined
think a significant portion of us iscompliance or a lack of financial safety.
Haley Radke (11:44):
Yep.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And that's a really brutal (11:46):
undefined
situation to be put in.
And we all make our ownchoices around that.
But yeah, I think I have known severaladopted and trafficked people who are, who
stay in unhealthy dynamics because of thefinancial stability that it provides them.
And I'm, I would never judge anadopted or trafficked person for
(12:07):
whatever choices they're making thatare safety based and they should not
be in that situation to begin with.
Haley Radke (12:14):
It's the yes and.
It's like you'reexperiencing this, we get it.
And you shouldn't have had to.
Yeah.
Okay.
What are you seeing with clients?
Have you have, do clients come andtalk about money things with you?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Absolutely. (12:29):
undefined
Again, I think to the, for the food link,like it just, it touches everything and I
think money is so linked to care, right?
I think there's a lot of dynamics wherethe only care people experience from
their adoptive parents is financial,and so it does carry that meaning.
Maybe if there's not a lot of attunementor emotional connection, but there is this
(12:52):
financial help, then it comes to mean somuch and then there can be like a hyper
fixation on things and like expensivethings and different things like that.
I think I see a lot of, yes in theaddiction realm, like overspending,
compulsive spending, and it's that likeseeking of the pleasure and the soothing.
(13:13):
I think even around like buying, ifyou've never had a parent cook for you.
Buying yourself, takeout ordelivery can feel like that.
You're giving yourself that care.
And again, which is, that'scertainly something that I go to
when I'm feeling not cared for.
That's a way that I will care for myself.
But it, of course, there's a lineit can get really out of hand.
(13:36):
And of course we want that, right?
I think what is self carethat doesn't involve money.
It's a short list.
And so even when we're talkingabout taking care of ourselves,
there's financial decisions beingmade in all of that all the time.
Haley Radke (13:51):
That's the self-care without money.
That's yeah, that great point.
Deep breathing, sit in the sunshine.
Go for a walk.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hot shower. (14:02):
undefined
But you do pay that water bill.
Haley Radke (14:04):
Yeah.
Yeah,
tell me how I know I have a teenson who really likes long showers.
I've seen, I don't see the,I'm not a therapist, right?
And I don't see clients, but I've seenso much of this in the adoptee community.
Like I've seen the overspending thepeople who hoard just like total
(14:29):
irresponsibility, and then also this pieceof trying to be as successful as possible.
And building wealth to prove worthiness.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC (14:42):
And the fear is woven into that too, right?
With the scarcity mindset.
Yes.
I cannot have enough money.
I don't, yeah, like you said, thehoarding, I don't wanna spend any money.
And that's about a lack of safety.
And again, this association thatwe have with that more money can
buy you safety, which sometimes itvery literally can, that's not a,
that's not a feeling, that's a fact.
(15:02):
And yes, I think that there, because Ithink we don't think about it this way
because of adoptions often happening ininfinite, early childhood, but there's
time in those timelines in all of ourstories where we were houseless, where
we were family less and houseless.
Where we had no resource and nostability, and so that's in there deep.
(15:26):
And so we fear that even if asan adult you've never experienced
houselessness, you, you may still havethat fear like coded into your DNA.
And so in a world that we're livingin right now where housing abuse of
housing costs has never been worse.
The last few years I have hadso many clients be in really
(15:49):
rough housing situations.
I've been in some rough housingmoments in the past couple years, and
it, the trigger vibrates all the waydown to the primal wound so quickly.
Haley Radke (16:01):
I never thought about it.
But you're so right.
All the people who were, eveninfant adoption, sometimes
there's foster care in between.
I was at the hospital for 10days before I ever went home.
Like there is a gap.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (16:19):
undefined
Haley Radke (16:20):
For a lot of people.
Wow.
Sorry, that sort of, just one more ofthose great light bulb moments from you.
Okay.
So one of the things the question thatgot asked initially, I'm gonna read it
out here, and it touched a nerve forme because I have a personal experience
(16:46):
of I remember this vividly, and Idon't know if I was in reunion yet
or not, but I was adopted by parentsthat were just a little bit older.
And so my parents always were, seemedolder to me than anybody else's parents.
And they're around the same ageas my maternal grandparents,
(17:09):
just to give a sense.
Okay?
And so I remember asking myadoptive mother at one point.
Growing up as an only child.
They were already retired atthis point, and I just said,
do you guys have current wills?
Do you guys have a plan in place?
Just literally Marta, the only, Iwas just asking because I thought,
(17:34):
man, they're getting older.
Who knows?
And it's on me.
And so
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes, (17:41):
undefined
Haley Radke (17:41):
I just want like, where can I find it?
I'd like to know your wishes.
It's pretty basic, so
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes, (17:47):
undefined
Haley Radke (17:48):
I've talked, even when I was young married person, I used to joke
around with our friends saying we shouldhave a funeral planning party just because
you never know and let's talk about it.
Let's normalize it.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (18:03):
undefined
Haley Radke (18:03):
I remember I told you, I always thought maybe at some
point I'd work at a funeral home.
I don't know, maybe when I'm older.
Anyway, I asked my adoptive mother,do you guys have current wills?
She went to 10.
Just shut down.
She was angry that I asked, and then itwas like, we are not talking about this.
(18:25):
And then she gave me thesilent treatment for awhile.
Which is the same thing that happenedwhen I got my second holes in my ears.
Ear piercing.
Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Oh my God. (18:34):
undefined
Haley Radke (18:35):
Anyway, so that's why this question hit a buzzer with
me because I was like, it's notscandalous to talk about wills.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC (18:44):
No,
Haley Radke (18:45):
We should know.
It shouldn't be a surprise.
And yeah, it's not, I don't know.
Okay.
Let me read this questionthat was submitted.
Can we talk wills?
I promise I'm not moneygrubbing, but this has me livid.
I found out that my bio mom hasleft her kept kids everything, and I
won't get anything when she passes.
(19:05):
Where is the equality?
This could break our reunion, frankly.
What is the ethical thingto do in this situation?
I don't even know how to bring it up withher without sounding like I'm counting
her money and waiting for her to die.
Am I the only one?
Tell me I'm not crazy.
She doesn't know I know.
And I think she's hiding it becauseshe knows it's not fair or equal.
(19:28):
So I don't know if you wanna reiterateyour answer to that question.
Or if we should just talk aboutwills and this situation where
it's not necessarily fair norequal and you find out by surprise.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I think, at its core (19:46):
undefined
its not about the money.
That being said, some people in thesesituations might really need again, right?
They might really need that resource.
And so of course, maybe thereis a piece of it, but I think
emotionally, it's not about the money.
It's about am I a person to you?
And so many adopted and traffickedpeople already feel so erased, right?
(20:10):
Like they erase our birthcertificates, like there, there's
eraser from the beginning.
There's a erasure, culturally, socially,still about our truths, our stories.
And so this is like yet anotherexperience of am I not real to you?
And I think whether we'retalking biological parents or
adoptive parents, it's still thattrigger of am I a person to you?
(20:33):
Am I real?
Am I not worthy of being claimed?
And of course, this is extremelypainful to find out that you've
been left out in any way.
Haley Radke (20:46):
Have you seen people like, I've heard of this before, but
like in an adoptive family where biokids get one treatment and adoptive
kids get a different treatment.
For example, I was just scrollingobituaries the other day again, showing
my age and I thought there was oneand it was listing off all the, the
(21:12):
people that are still remain with us.
And then they're listed off the kidsand then it said, and his adopted
son so and and I was like, oh, wow.
You even get an asterisk in the obit.
Good for you.
You got included but weknow you're not equal.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think that yes, the treatment can (21:31):
undefined
go, I know we're talking wills, butI think it can start way before that.
Like that biological kids getdown payments for their first
homes and adopted kids get to paytheir own way through undergrad.
Like I absolutely have seen thosesituations where the treatment
financially way before we're eventalking wills is completely different.
Haley Radke (21:53):
What do you do?
What do you do?
Do you speak up for yourself?
Do I don't even know.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Of course, I'm pro using your (22:00):
undefined
voice and there are points wherethat's doesn't matter anymore.
You know where people have alreadytried and there's a point right where
we can't change the other people.
So I think to go back to the willspiece, I think it's absolutely worth
a conversation and trying to expressthe emotions first, the feelings first.
This is how this landed on me.
(22:22):
You know what's going.
What's going on for you?
I think with the birth parent piecespecifically, there's an extra complex
layer of whatever their shame is, right?
Or fear, I think that birth parentscan have a lot of fear about what
their other kids will feel, notjust about us returning, right?
(22:43):
Like that reunion moment andhaving to tell them most likely
for the first time, like I had apregnancy, I had a child, right?
All of that.
I think there's so much shame, butthen I think that still courses forward
in the dynamic and so I don't know.
I'm wondering if this birth mother feltlike not able not that she thought it was
(23:05):
right but maybe she felt unable to say notonly all of this, not only have I lied,
not only am I this, whatever the negativestory is in her mind, but also now you
get less because your sibling came back.
And I don't know I just think it'sa lot more complicated than just
what we see on the surface, right?
Or when we personalize it,it's just more complex.
(23:29):
And so can we ask in that moment,can you tell me about this decision?
Because I'm hurtingand I don't understand.
Haley Radke (23:39):
It's so complicated.
Because it's not just about yourrelationship with them either 'cause
it does impact the others as well.
Yeah.
That's tricky.
So tricky.
So what would it do to someoneif they really have that happen?
(24:01):
Where they're just excluded fromthe will and they had a good reunion
for, 30 years, whatever you thinkyou're in, everything's good.
And you're just not.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think like this person said (24:12):
undefined
it, it could be a breaking point.
It could, because it could be thatpainful, it could be that wounding.
I think it, it would bring in doubt, ifit had been a quote unquote good reunion
that whole time of, what has this allbeen and what do I really mean to you?
Where do I belong in your life?
Do I have a place in your life?
Haley Radke (24:34):
Okay, so let's talk a little bit more, more about reunion.
I remember early, an early on episodethat you and I talked about this,
and I don't know how much made itto air, but I think some of it did.
But talking about reunion ininternational countries, sorry, for
international adoptees who are inreunion, who may be asked for money
(24:55):
from their adoptee, especially ifthey're in an impoverished nation.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So yeah, I don't love that (25:00):
undefined
language impoverished countriesisn't sitting so well with me.
I would prefer something like countrieseconomically crushed under global
colonialism and white supremacy becausethere is an intergenerational legacy
of abuse that results in the financialhardships of these countries that
(25:25):
most transnational adoptees come fromthat have been ex so exploited for
whatever valuable resources remain.
That also includes babies.
Haley Radke (25:37):
Such a good point.
Yes.
Thank you for the correction.
I think a lot of people didn't knowthat in South Korea, for example, like
one of their main economic boons wasinternational from international adoption,
and if folks listen to, you haven't heardthis yet, but the episode that will be
(26:00):
out just before this one, we're talkingwith adoptees who were adopt one was
adopted from Chile to Sweden, and she'stelling us about there were Swedish
social workers that like lived in Chile inorder to export these kids out to Sweden.
A wealthier at the time nation, yeah.
It's complicated.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And I think it's easy to judge (26:22):
undefined
Korea for being the largest exporterof babies, and why were they in
that situation in the first place?
If you look further back in that country'shistory, there's a reason that they were
in that position in the first place.
And so the, coercion that we talkabout with birth moms, like that
(26:44):
all happens on a global level aswell, on a country to country level.
And so I would say that anycountry that has an international
transnational adoption trade hasbeen, has suffered under the weight
of global colonialism in some way.
And so then if we zoom backinto the individual real
(27:04):
quick, what does that do to us?
Transnational, transracial adopteeswhen we're in reunion and there
maybe is financial hardship issuffering in our birth family.
Some of us don't have the means tohelp, and actually I think that's more
concrete and can be simpler as faras, I just, I really can't help you.
(27:27):
Where is it when maybe we can,but maybe we're not comfortable.
Maybe we don't feel safe, meaning.
How do you trust in the fact thatif you don't give the money that the
people will still be around and evenif you give it freely, it's care.
(27:49):
We talked to us earlier in the episode.
There's an associationwith money and care.
So what is it as an adult, adopted,trafficked person to provide care
for people that did not care for you?
And how do we make peace with that?
It's just all extremely complicated.
I'm moving through so muchof this myself right now.
(28:11):
Having moved home to Columbia,my mother's health is not well.
She has had a tremendously difficult life.
She worked harder then maybeanyone I know sacrificed her body.
That's what's going onwith her health right now.
Quite literally, like she sacrificedher body for years working on her
(28:33):
hands and knees, cooking, sewing, sleepdeprivation, like so many sacrifices
just to keep my siblings clothed and fed.
And now at this stage in her life, herhealth is so bad that she cannot work.
How is that fair?
What is she supposed to do?
What am I supposed to do?
(28:54):
Just watch her suffer.
But also, I am a 38-year-old child,free by choice woman that chose
financial independence for a reason.
I have financial independence thatmy female ancestors could never
dream of, and now I'm taking onthis responsibility for my mom.
Not all the time, but when she's with me,I'm 100% financially responsible for her
(29:19):
and the emotions that have come with that,even though I have clarity of thought.
And clarity of heartabout what I wanna do.
That doesn't mean that there'snot younger parts of me screaming
and flipping out about how unfair,but what is the concrete solution?
(29:39):
Sometimes there isn't one, and again,we're back to this injustice that I
think is at the center of so many adoptedand trafficked feelings of the intense
injustice from the individual levelto the community level, to the country
level, to the global level, right?
It just billows out and who getscrushed at the center of it.
Haley Radke (30:01):
I just thought we were just taking a really light subject.
No, it's not light, but,
okay.
So we've really set up all the hard, thecomplicated, all the things for folks.
How can we set up and build a sense offinancial safety, abundance confidence
(30:29):
with money decisions now, if thoseare things that we're struggling with?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I think also what was (30:36):
undefined
our financial education?
What did it look like in thefamilies we were raised in?
Was there any, or was money one ofthose things that was not talked about?
And again, I'm like still on injustice ofcourse, because it's not fair that if you
did not receive any financial educationeither in your home or in school.
(30:57):
I could also rant about that, how we,that's not part of our education and
even those of us sometimes with likeadvanced degrees, it was never part of it.
No financial training,no business training.
That it's, yeah.
Like we don't have enough things todo around our healing, but I do, I
would advise adopted and traffickedpeople to seek some education if you
(31:20):
don't feel financially literate toseek out some education around that,
whether that's like reading a bookor listening to podcasts or hiring
a coach or whatever that looks like.
Because I do think we're at risk to havean unhealthy relationship with money
and we deserve security and safety.
Haley Radke (31:41):
What are like one or two things that we can do just as practice.
I'm thinking like how do weteach ourselves that it's
safe, we're in charge of it.
Those kinds of things even be it.
(32:02):
Making with making decision making,just like how you were explaining your
situation with your mom right now.
Like how do you set yourself up forsuccess with, okay, I know I'm able
to do this and this is my boundary,any sort of things like that, little
advice, things you can give on that.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: It's a little giant one, right? (32:19):
undefined
Do you know how much money you have?
Do you know what'scoming in and coming out?
A lot of us have shame about evenlooking directly at those numbers,
and I think technology makes iteasier than ever to look away.
If you don't want to,we just go click bing.
(32:41):
We click a button, or we like tapand it's all, and none of it's real.
And so a first step, and this was myfirst step years ago when I did money
coaching, is to look into the numbers,to literally sit and look at them and
confront whatever comes up about that.
Haley Radke (32:59):
Be in reality.
Let's welcome you to reality.
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (33:02):
undefined
Yeah.
Haley Radke (33:03):
That's great.
And there's so many things about budgetingand there's so many resources about that,
that doesn't have to be anything adopteerelated, but if you're struggling more
in this area, I think it'd be a greatthing to dig into with your therapist.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Absolutely. (33:22):
undefined
Haley Radke (33:23):
Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Take it to therapy and because there (33:23):
undefined
are so many emotions involved, andthen I think my other advice would
be my classic Marta advice, whichis don't be alone with it too.
Like I've had a lot of clients that havethe big shame triggers around money.
All these things seeksupport from loved ones.
If looking at those numbers isoverwhelming, can someone who loves
(33:45):
you sit next to you while you dothat and help you regulate your
nervous system while you confrontthe reality of whatever's going on?
Haley Radke (33:55):
I'm working on this new show and I'm about to need a bunch of
money, so it's really stressful to askfor people to help when you're so used
to doing everything by yourself andbeing fully independent and just, yeah,
it feels very difficult to ask for help.
(34:15):
But.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think that's such an important piece. (34:16):
undefined
They're highlighting too, around thetriggers around all of this, which
is like if we do get ourselves intorough financial situations, like how
much powerlessness comes up, right?
And powerlessness is again oneof those feelings that vibrates
right down to the primal wound.
And I think, we know adoptedand trafficked or not.
(34:40):
People can make really extreme decisionswhen they feel out of control financially.
It's a high risk factor to have.
Haley Radke (34:49):
All right, so we welcome you all to be in reality with us.
Thank you so much, Marta.
I really loved your originalanswer to this question, so we're
gonna cut it and we're gonna putit at the very end of the show.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. (35:03):
undefined
Haley Radke (35:04):
For people to listen to so they can hear our hot takes.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I don't remember what I said. (35:06):
undefined
Haley Radke (35:08):
Oh it was great, and I had some great observations too, so
we both, we just both come out on top.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. (35:13):
undefined
Great.
Haley Radke (35:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I don't really remember either.
But we're gonna, we're you'll, you'regonna hear it very soon, right away.
But first, I know you'redoing lots of amazing things.
Now that you have relocated andare doing all this online work,
where can people connect with you,hear what's coming up for you?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So I do have a public Instagram (35:32):
undefined
now it's Sierra, S-I-E-R-R-A, dotspeaks dot verdad, V-E-R-D-A-D.
That's truth in Spanish.
You can follow me there.
And there's information on the groupsthat I'm running and probably will
continue to add some more new groupsthis coming year, so stay tuned.
(35:54):
That's a great way to just be inthe know if you are interested in
groups with me and my practice emailis also on my Instagram, which is
also on the Adoptees On website, butthat's martasierralmhc@gmail.com.
And I have three groupsthat are taking members.
I have a wait list right now for asecond cohort of navigating transnational
(36:15):
reunion, a therapeutic support group fortransnational adult adoptees, currently
navigating transnational reunionswhere you travel back and forth and
your heart is in two places at once.
That time is TBD, because I'm gonna waittill the cohort fills and get everybody's
consent on a time, but a weeknight.
Sometime between 6:00 to 8:00PM Eastern Standard is probably
(36:38):
generally where that will land.
All my groups are $25 via Venmo.
I also have room in my homecominggroup that's a therapeutic support
group for transnational adultadoptees currently living in their
homelands or planning to move backeither temporarily or permanently.
So that group is running, so that'sMondays 6-7:15 Eastern Standard biweekly.
(37:03):
The other one's biweekly as well.
So I have room in that for new members.
And then I'm starting upLiberation and Abolition Group.
That's a therapeutic support group foradult survivors of adoption, adoptees
of color, currently navigating theterror of trying to survive under
empire who are oriented towardsliberation and abolition in all forms.
(37:23):
To be in community together andraise our voices against oppression.
This is an affinity space forpeople of the global majority
and an open process group.
And that is Thursdays 6-7:30Eastern Standard Time biweekly.
Come join us.
Haley Radke (37:40):
Okay.
That is amazing.
I love that you have those and so neededand the wait list, like of course Marta's
an expert in all these things and Iknow that she can help guide many of
you through as an expert through reallychallenging circumstances that you're
navigating yourself and have navigated.
So thank you.
(38:00):
What a gift to our community.
Thank you so much for your wisdom, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Thanks Haley. (38:04):
undefined
Haley Radke (38:05):
What a pleasure to get to talk with you.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Always great to chat. (38:08):
undefined
Thanks, Haley.
Haley Radke (38:12):
I've been waiting to ask you this question.
This is my most anticipatedquestion for you.
Okay?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. (38:18):
undefined
Haley Radke (38:20):
Finally, someone said it out loud.
Can we talk wills?
I promise I'm not moneygrubbing, but this has me livid.
I found out that my bio mom has lefther kept kids, everything, and I
won't get anything when she passes.
Where is the equality?
This could break our reunion, frankly.
(38:42):
What's the ethical thingto do in this situation?
I don't even know how to bring it up withher without sounding like I'm counting
her money and waiting for her to die.
Am I the only one?
Tell me I'm not crazy.
She doesn't know that I know, andI think she's hiding it because
she knows it's not fair or equal.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Ugh. (39:00):
undefined
Yeah I was glad to see this question too.
I think that it, yeah.
A lot of people aren't maybe talkingabout it like, I love the start, right?
Can we talk about this?
Yes, we could talk about it.
Of course.
We could talk about it.
And I think issues around inheritanceon both sides, on adoptive and
biological sides are huge triggers.
(39:21):
Everybody has a lot of feelings about it.
And the biggest, I think.
I don't wanna say mistake,but misunderstanding about it
is that it's about the money.
And I think because of that'swhy there's silence around it.
And why people don't wanna talkabout this topic in public or
in front of other people becauseit sounds like it's about money.
(39:41):
'cause we're talking wills andwe're talking inheritance, but
it's not about money at all.
If you're adopted, it'snot even about the money.
It's about belonging, respect, feelingseen, feeling acknowledged, mattering
to the other people and equality asshe said, and about being an equal
with whether that's other siblings orother family members, whatever it is.
(40:04):
So I just, again, for anyone strugglingwith this, I just wish for you to
wrap your feelings and compassionand shake that shame off because
this isn't, it's not about money.
Our feelings about money arelinked to feelings about care.
So it's a really emotional topic, truly.
And I think, my advice and aroundbringing this up would be to go
(40:27):
to, to stay in that, to stay in thefeelings, not the why am I not getting
anything, but why did you decide this?
Can you tell me about that?
Because I feel really hurt.
The impact of finding this out andfinding it out not from you, is that
I don't matter and, and I would justlike to know a little bit about your
(40:49):
thinking and your feeling around it.
Versus why did you leave me out?
Really going to like what?
Because as I often say when we'retalking reunion stuff it's so easy
to make assumptions about why someonedid what they did or didn't do, what
they didn't do, and it's just can be alot more complicated and most likely.
(41:10):
Fear is driving decisions.
So if this person really wants answers,what, how much curiosity can they bring
to this conversation of, I'd love toknow like why you decided this, if
you can tell me a little bit about it.
Because I feel really hurt and I feelreally confused and really overwhelmed
and I don't wanna feel any of those ways.
But the impact of this on mewas feeling like I'm not as
(41:33):
important as your other kids.
And.
I am gonna imagine that'snot how you want me to feel.
So can you tell me a littlebit about why you did this?
Haley Radke (41:42):
Also sometimes when we hear secondhand information,
it's not always accurate, so I'mnot saying that in this case, but.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: No, I love that. (41:49):
undefined
That's a great point Haley.
Is this true?
That's a great place to start.
Haley Radke (41:55):
Yeah.
People love stirring updrama when bio or adopt,
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: especially around this topic too. (42:00):
undefined
Yes.
Haley Radke (42:03):
Sure.
Yeah.
And if you have a falling out,maybe you won't get anything like,
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC (42:09):
yes
Haley Radke (42:09):
it's a, you don't always know what people's intentions are.
Okay, friend.
This is our last episode untilwe'll be back in September with
brand new episodes for you.
In the meantime, there's lots of bonuscontent over on our Patreon, which also
(42:32):
will be still going through the summer.
So if you wanna join us for a bookclub, ask an adoptee therapist,
our adoptees off script parties.
Just come.
We would love to have you.
It's, we're a good time, I promise.
And if you think I can't filter myselfon the main feed here, you'd be surprised
(42:54):
of the things I say on off script.
I'm surpris, I'm surprised ofthe things I say on off script.
I would like to sharewith you my exciting news.
I'm actually not takinga vacation this summer.
Instead, I am full in workingon a brand new podcast.
You may have heard me talkabout this show before the hopes
(43:19):
and dreams for this project.
You have likely heard me talkabout why I make you know, biweekly
episodes instead, it's because I'vebeen working on this project in
the background for all this time.
Which has meant a lot of brainstorming,connecting with people, team
(43:41):
building lawyering, all kinds oflogistical adulty things, if you will.
I am so excited andpassionate about this project.
I believe that it's our turn to telleveryone about adoptions impact on
adoptees and birth first parents, and sowe are making the podcast to do just that.
(44:08):
If you want to stay informed andup to date on what we are doing,
you can go to onadoption.net.
It has a newsletter, sign up.
And we invite you to join ournewsletter list, you'll be the
first to know if we're looking forguests, you wanna be a part of it.
(44:30):
If you're looking to get involvedin some way, the opportunities will
first show up on that newsletter.
And we also have our social mediagoing on Instagram @onadoption.
I hope to bring you many more greatupdates, but right now I'm in the midst of
(44:51):
recording with some very special motherswho've placed child for adoption and they
are bearing their souls and it is reallydifficult work and so important, and I
can't wait to be able to share this witheveryone because it's so deeply important.
(45:18):
Family preservation is justa deep passion of mine.
I know it is of many of yours.
And so we also are starting a newnonprofit that's called Adoptees for
Family Preservation, and we're gonnatell you more about that soon as well.
So many huge things happening.
(45:40):
Thank you for being a part of it.
And whether you're supporting AdopteesOn Patreon listening to the episodes,
sharing them with your friends, anyof those things, you are helping
this ecosystem stay alive and well.
And I thank you for it.
Thank you for prioritizing adoptee voices.
(46:01):
Thank you for listening.
Let's talk again very soon.
This podcast is for educational and
entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to adopteeson the podcast where adoptees
(00:20):
discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
This is a special episode in our healingseries where I interview therapists
who are also adoptees themselves.
Today's show is also special becauseit's our last episode before our summer
break, and I'm gonna tell you all aboutour other summer plans and some exciting
(00:45):
announcements at the end of the show.
Before we get started though, I wannapersonally invite you to join our
Patreon adoptee community today overon adopteeson.com/community, which
helps support you and also the show tosupport more adoptees around the world.
Links to everything we'll be talking abouttoday or on the website, adopteeson.com.
(01:07):
Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcomeback to Adoptees On.
I was gonna count how many timesyou've been on, but I haven't so many.
You might be the most,
you might have the most AdopteesOn episodes at this point.
Anyway.
Marta Isabella SierraCifuentes, welcome back, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hi Haley. (01:30):
undefined
Haley Radke (01:31):
Have you kept track?
Are we at double digits yet?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think we're at double digits. (01:34):
undefined
I think I also have not counted.
Haley Radke (01:38):
If you count Patreon.
For sure.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: For sure. (01:40):
undefined
Yes.
And there's some clips from thePatreon that are on the public.
Haley Radke (01:45):
Oh, that's true.
It's so true.
So yeah, you're everywhere.
Okay so speaking of Patreon,you come on pretty regularly.
We have a show once a month wherewe do Ask An Adoptee Therapist,
and this was the impetus for ourconversation today 'cause someone
submitted a question that kind of like.
(02:06):
Lit off all the fireworks in everybody'sbrains because it just spiraled out
into a bunch of different topics.
The question was an adoptee findingout that she was not gonna inherit the
same as her biological moms kept kidswere, the will is different for her and
(02:26):
the big feelings associated with that.
And it just brought us all tothinking about adoptees and money.
Like it's a big deal.
Of course, everybody uses money andI'm curious what your first thoughts
are on how does being adopted evenshape our relationship with money?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think the relationship, first (02:48):
undefined
of all is just an interesting one.
I worked with a money coach yearsago in Seattle, and that was
when I was doing exclusively workin the eating disorders world.
And something she said to me in one ofour first meetings was so impactful,
and I still think about it all thetime and I share it with clients.
The biggest difference between likesubstance abuse and because we can
(03:10):
have addictive behavior with foodand with money is you don't need
to take substances to survive.
You can cut it out ofyour life completely.
But if you have an unhealthyrelationship with food or money,
you have to figure it out.
You cannot live without havinga relationship with food or
having a relationship with money.
So sometimes there's also aninteresting dynamic there too,
(03:33):
around the food and the money.
Like maybe we were restrictivein one place and really out of
control in the other, or vice versa.
I just thought that was an interestingway to think about it and I think I know
you've explored that a lot on the podcast.
I feel like our relationship with foodas adoptees and our relationship with our
bodies, and so yeah, money is part of thatreally complicated relationship with like
(03:57):
our brain chemistry, the spending and thesaving and then yes, of course there's
the really essential piece of that ourlives started with money changing hands,
and how does that affect how we feelabout ourselves as commodified people?
Haley Radke (04:18):
Can we pause there because I think that's one thing that a lot
of people really don't think about.
Being commodified and money changinghands, and whether or not it was
a, private a hundred thousanddollars adoption so you could get
(04:40):
the race of child that you wantedor a public, adopt from foster care
situation where maybe the adoptiveparent is the one receiving money.
Like money is happening.
It's happening in all the situations.
Someone is profiting, whether it'sthe government or the agency or the
(05:05):
adoptive parent and oh my gosh, I'veseen so many people talking about the
adoption tax credits and it's just sowhere's the therapy tax credit for us?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Then, of course tied into all of that (05:21):
undefined
in that moment and the money changinghands and like the salesmanship of
the adoption agencies, like all ofthis really yucky pieces is also this
idea that financially stable, quoteunquote adoptive parents is such a
piece of what makes them more qualifiedto raise us than our birth parents.
(05:45):
And I think that's also supercomplex because we do not all get
adopted into wealthy families.
Some families use every penny thatthey have, and then that child grows
up with a lot of financial difficultyand maybe even with the knowledge
that like their adoption is partof what put the family into a rough
(06:07):
financial situation to start out with.
And so I think there's this illusionthat if someone has enough money
to purchase a baby that they'rea certain in a certain place.
But I think as with all spending, right?
Like we can all figure out how to spenda lot of money, that's not necessarily
reflective of like how much financialstability or security we might have.
(06:32):
There are ways to get things that areout of your financial comfort zone.
Out of your budget.
I don't know.
Words are failing me.
Haley Radke (06:40):
I vividly remember talking with Renee from Saving Our Sisters.
So as a charity that is promotesfamily preservation and helps
moms in crisis get through thattemporary time period of crisis.
And I remember her telling me aboutwhen she placed her son for adoption
(07:02):
'cause she was in a temporary financialcrisis and then like later finding out.
Like the differences in salaries betweenher, actually very well paying job and
the adoptive family that adopted her son.
And it was significant.
They were significantly lower.
(07:22):
And I was like,
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes, (07:23):
undefined
Haley Radke (07:24):
okay.
Like it's true.
Like you don't know if you're like, youdon't know where your child is gonna go.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah. (07:30):
undefined
Haley Radke (07:32):
Okay, so coming to terms with the commodification of it all, most of
us don't think about that till later on.
And so do you think that's likeunderneath, like that we have some
idea of that subconsciously that isaffecting she's nodding her head at me.
Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (07:50):
undefined
I, this is embarrassing story,but I'm gonna tell it because
I think it's important.
I had I think I had so much shameabout it as a kid and so much
consciousness about it, and so muchinsecurity about my difference about
being the only kid, like in my school,in my area that was adopted, that I
(08:11):
weaponized, I turned it around, right?
Like we can often do whateverwe're insecure about, we can
turn it around and weaponize it.
So when kids would tease me aboutbeing adopted or come at me about it, I
would say you might not even have beenplanned, but I was bought and paid for.
Haley Radke (08:27):
But I've heard that.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I know it's terrible and I'm embarrassed (08:28):
undefined
about it now, but I just neededsomething to feel better about and I
think because there was so much shameabout it, I like switched the narrative
on it to try to feel empowered insome way to try to feel chosen, right?
As the story had been told, I wastrying to feel, wanted and chosen and
(08:51):
special when actually I felt discarded.
Haley Radke (08:54):
Yes.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And inhuman. (08:55):
undefined
Haley Radke (08:56):
Yeah, that's really profound and okay.
So I've been on, I've been on,I'm back on TikTok because I'm
using it to work on my new show.
Anyway I've seen a lot of videosworth people talking about that like
from a fully positive perspective.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (09:15):
undefined
Haley Radke (09:15):
It's like you see it, but you can't see it.
Like you're almost there.
You're almost there.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (09:21):
undefined
Haley Radke (09:21):
But you don't wanna pop their bubbles.
Oh.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And then I think like how that unfolds (09:24):
undefined
over time, is this really stickyrelationship with money as we get older,
like the ways that money can be used ascontrol around managing adoptees behavior
starting, I think in like adolescencemaybe with like control around allowances.
(09:49):
If you step outta line, youdon't get your allowance.
And I think all of that, dosome biological parents do that?
Sure.
But I think the way that it lands onus is different because money already
has this different weight aroundworthiness and so if adoptees are
always like bracing to be abandoned, reabandoned, sent back, I think we're also
(10:12):
bracing to be financially abandoned.
And so these threats, I think theyland different on us and create yeah, a
complicated relationship into adulthood.
Haley Radke (10:24):
This is what's coming to mind is this combination of that, the
financial safety and the adoptee loyalty,so for people who don't know what that
is, it's like you're obligated to be loyalto your adoptive family because of just
those things, like as a teenager, arethey gonna provide transportation for you?
(10:48):
Are they gonna help you buy a car?
Are they gonna help you pay for college?
If you start, you're probablythinking critically adoption
about adoption possibly.
But if you start speaking outcritically about adoption all of
those things can be taken away.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (11:06):
undefined
Haley Radke (11:07):
And.
I'm thinking of a bunchof different things.
There's all kinds of scenarios, right?
We see adoptees getting sentaway to camps to change behavior
becoming homeless, just kicked out.
Like all of those kinds of pieces.
So that can control and forcedloyalty, whether or not that's
(11:30):
really what they're experiencing.
How do I put this?
You know what I mean?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: The choice is, ends up being for, I (11:34):
undefined
think a significant portion of us iscompliance or a lack of financial safety.
Haley Radke (11:44):
Yep.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And that's a really brutal (11:46):
undefined
situation to be put in.
And we all make our ownchoices around that.
But yeah, I think I have known severaladopted and trafficked people who are, who
stay in unhealthy dynamics because of thefinancial stability that it provides them.
And I'm, I would never judge anadopted or trafficked person for
(12:07):
whatever choices they're making thatare safety based and they should not
be in that situation to begin with.
Haley Radke (12:14):
It's the yes and.
It's like you'reexperiencing this, we get it.
And you shouldn't have had to.
Yeah.
Okay.
What are you seeing with clients?
Have you have, do clients come andtalk about money things with you?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Absolutely. (12:29):
undefined
Again, I think to the, for the food link,like it just, it touches everything and I
think money is so linked to care, right?
I think there's a lot of dynamics wherethe only care people experience from
their adoptive parents is financial,and so it does carry that meaning.
Maybe if there's not a lot of attunementor emotional connection, but there is this
(12:52):
financial help, then it comes to mean somuch and then there can be like a hyper
fixation on things and like expensivethings and different things like that.
I think I see a lot of, yes in theaddiction realm, like overspending,
compulsive spending, and it's that likeseeking of the pleasure and the soothing.
(13:13):
I think even around like buying, ifyou've never had a parent cook for you.
Buying yourself, takeout ordelivery can feel like that.
You're giving yourself that care.
And again, which is, that'scertainly something that I go to
when I'm feeling not cared for.
That's a way that I will care for myself.
But it, of course, there's a lineit can get really out of hand.
(13:36):
And of course we want that, right?
I think what is self carethat doesn't involve money.
It's a short list.
And so even when we're talkingabout taking care of ourselves,
there's financial decisions beingmade in all of that all the time.
Haley Radke (13:51):
That's the self-care without money.
That's yeah, that great point.
Deep breathing, sit in the sunshine.
Go for a walk.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hot shower. (14:02):
undefined
But you do pay that water bill.
Haley Radke (14:04):
Yeah.
Yeah,
tell me how I know I have a teenson who really likes long showers.
I've seen, I don't see the,I'm not a therapist, right?
And I don't see clients, but I've seenso much of this in the adoptee community.
Like I've seen the overspending thepeople who hoard just like total
(14:29):
irresponsibility, and then also this pieceof trying to be as successful as possible.
And building wealth to prove worthiness.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC (14:42):
And the fear is woven into that too, right?
With the scarcity mindset.
Yes.
I cannot have enough money.
I don't, yeah, like you said, thehoarding, I don't wanna spend any money.
And that's about a lack of safety.
And again, this association thatwe have with that more money can
buy you safety, which sometimes itvery literally can, that's not a,
that's not a feeling, that's a fact.
(15:02):
And yes, I think that there, because Ithink we don't think about it this way
because of adoptions often happening ininfinite, early childhood, but there's
time in those timelines in all of ourstories where we were houseless, where
we were family less and houseless.
Where we had no resource and nostability, and so that's in there deep.
(15:26):
And so we fear that even if asan adult you've never experienced
houselessness, you, you may still havethat fear like coded into your DNA.
And so in a world that we're livingin right now where housing abuse of
housing costs has never been worse.
The last few years I have hadso many clients be in really
(15:49):
rough housing situations.
I've been in some rough housingmoments in the past couple years, and
it, the trigger vibrates all the waydown to the primal wound so quickly.
Haley Radke (16:01):
I never thought about it.
But you're so right.
All the people who were, eveninfant adoption, sometimes
there's foster care in between.
I was at the hospital for 10days before I ever went home.
Like there is a gap.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (16:19):
undefined
Haley Radke (16:20):
For a lot of people.
Wow.
Sorry, that sort of, just one more ofthose great light bulb moments from you.
Okay.
So one of the things the question thatgot asked initially, I'm gonna read it
out here, and it touched a nerve forme because I have a personal experience
(16:46):
of I remember this vividly, and Idon't know if I was in reunion yet
or not, but I was adopted by parentsthat were just a little bit older.
And so my parents always were, seemedolder to me than anybody else's parents.
And they're around the same ageas my maternal grandparents,
(17:09):
just to give a sense.
Okay?
And so I remember asking myadoptive mother at one point.
Growing up as an only child.
They were already retired atthis point, and I just said,
do you guys have current wills?
Do you guys have a plan in place?
Just literally Marta, the only, Iwas just asking because I thought,
(17:34):
man, they're getting older.
Who knows?
And it's on me.
And so
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes, (17:41):
undefined
Haley Radke (17:41):
I just want like, where can I find it?
I'd like to know your wishes.
It's pretty basic, so
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes, (17:47):
undefined
Haley Radke (17:48):
I've talked, even when I was young married person, I used to joke
around with our friends saying we shouldhave a funeral planning party just because
you never know and let's talk about it.
Let's normalize it.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (18:03):
undefined
Haley Radke (18:03):
I remember I told you, I always thought maybe at some
point I'd work at a funeral home.
I don't know, maybe when I'm older.
Anyway, I asked my adoptive mother,do you guys have current wills?
She went to 10.
Just shut down.
She was angry that I asked, and then itwas like, we are not talking about this.
(18:25):
And then she gave me thesilent treatment for awhile.
Which is the same thing that happenedwhen I got my second holes in my ears.
Ear piercing.
Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Oh my God. (18:34):
undefined
Haley Radke (18:35):
Anyway, so that's why this question hit a buzzer with
me because I was like, it's notscandalous to talk about wills.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC (18:44):
No,
Haley Radke (18:45):
We should know.
It shouldn't be a surprise.
And yeah, it's not, I don't know.
Okay.
Let me read this questionthat was submitted.
Can we talk wills?
I promise I'm not moneygrubbing, but this has me livid.
I found out that my bio mom hasleft her kept kids everything, and I
won't get anything when she passes.
(19:05):
Where is the equality?
This could break our reunion, frankly.
What is the ethical thingto do in this situation?
I don't even know how to bring it up withher without sounding like I'm counting
her money and waiting for her to die.
Am I the only one?
Tell me I'm not crazy.
She doesn't know I know.
And I think she's hiding it becauseshe knows it's not fair or equal.
(19:28):
So I don't know if you wanna reiterateyour answer to that question.
Or if we should just talk aboutwills and this situation where
it's not necessarily fair norequal and you find out by surprise.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I think, at its core (19:46):
undefined
its not about the money.
That being said, some people in thesesituations might really need again, right?
They might really need that resource.
And so of course, maybe thereis a piece of it, but I think
emotionally, it's not about the money.
It's about am I a person to you?
And so many adopted and traffickedpeople already feel so erased, right?
(20:10):
Like they erase our birthcertificates, like there, there's
eraser from the beginning.
There's a erasure, culturally, socially,still about our truths, our stories.
And so this is like yet anotherexperience of am I not real to you?
And I think whether we'retalking biological parents or
adoptive parents, it's still thattrigger of am I a person to you?
(20:33):
Am I real?
Am I not worthy of being claimed?
And of course, this is extremelypainful to find out that you've
been left out in any way.
Haley Radke (20:46):
Have you seen people like, I've heard of this before, but
like in an adoptive family where biokids get one treatment and adoptive
kids get a different treatment.
For example, I was just scrollingobituaries the other day again, showing
my age and I thought there was oneand it was listing off all the, the
(21:12):
people that are still remain with us.
And then they're listed off the kidsand then it said, and his adopted
son so and and I was like, oh, wow.
You even get an asterisk in the obit.
Good for you.
You got included but weknow you're not equal.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think that yes, the treatment can (21:31):
undefined
go, I know we're talking wills, butI think it can start way before that.
Like that biological kids getdown payments for their first
homes and adopted kids get to paytheir own way through undergrad.
Like I absolutely have seen thosesituations where the treatment
financially way before we're eventalking wills is completely different.
Haley Radke (21:53):
What do you do?
What do you do?
Do you speak up for yourself?
Do I don't even know.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Of course, I'm pro using your (22:00):
undefined
voice and there are points wherethat's doesn't matter anymore.
You know where people have alreadytried and there's a point right where
we can't change the other people.
So I think to go back to the willspiece, I think it's absolutely worth
a conversation and trying to expressthe emotions first, the feelings first.
This is how this landed on me.
(22:22):
You know what's going.
What's going on for you?
I think with the birth parent piecespecifically, there's an extra complex
layer of whatever their shame is, right?
Or fear, I think that birth parentscan have a lot of fear about what
their other kids will feel, notjust about us returning, right?
(22:43):
Like that reunion moment andhaving to tell them most likely
for the first time, like I had apregnancy, I had a child, right?
All of that.
I think there's so much shame, butthen I think that still courses forward
in the dynamic and so I don't know.
I'm wondering if this birth mother feltlike not able not that she thought it was
(23:05):
right but maybe she felt unable to say notonly all of this, not only have I lied,
not only am I this, whatever the negativestory is in her mind, but also now you
get less because your sibling came back.
And I don't know I just think it'sa lot more complicated than just
what we see on the surface, right?
Or when we personalize it,it's just more complex.
(23:29):
And so can we ask in that moment,can you tell me about this decision?
Because I'm hurtingand I don't understand.
Haley Radke (23:39):
It's so complicated.
Because it's not just about yourrelationship with them either 'cause
it does impact the others as well.
Yeah.
That's tricky.
So tricky.
So what would it do to someoneif they really have that happen?
(24:01):
Where they're just excluded fromthe will and they had a good reunion
for, 30 years, whatever you thinkyou're in, everything's good.
And you're just not.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think like this person said (24:12):
undefined
it, it could be a breaking point.
It could, because it could be thatpainful, it could be that wounding.
I think it, it would bring in doubt, ifit had been a quote unquote good reunion
that whole time of, what has this allbeen and what do I really mean to you?
Where do I belong in your life?
Do I have a place in your life?
Haley Radke (24:34):
Okay, so let's talk a little bit more, more about reunion.
I remember early, an early on episodethat you and I talked about this,
and I don't know how much made itto air, but I think some of it did.
But talking about reunion ininternational countries, sorry, for
international adoptees who are inreunion, who may be asked for money
(24:55):
from their adoptee, especially ifthey're in an impoverished nation.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So yeah, I don't love that (25:00):
undefined
language impoverished countriesisn't sitting so well with me.
I would prefer something like countrieseconomically crushed under global
colonialism and white supremacy becausethere is an intergenerational legacy
of abuse that results in the financialhardships of these countries that
(25:25):
most transnational adoptees come fromthat have been ex so exploited for
whatever valuable resources remain.
That also includes babies.
Haley Radke (25:37):
Such a good point.
Yes.
Thank you for the correction.
I think a lot of people didn't knowthat in South Korea, for example, like
one of their main economic boons wasinternational from international adoption,
and if folks listen to, you haven't heardthis yet, but the episode that will be
(26:00):
out just before this one, we're talkingwith adoptees who were adopt one was
adopted from Chile to Sweden, and she'stelling us about there were Swedish
social workers that like lived in Chile inorder to export these kids out to Sweden.
A wealthier at the time nation, yeah.
It's complicated.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And I think it's easy to judge (26:22):
undefined
Korea for being the largest exporterof babies, and why were they in
that situation in the first place?
If you look further back in that country'shistory, there's a reason that they were
in that position in the first place.
And so the, coercion that we talkabout with birth moms, like that
(26:44):
all happens on a global level aswell, on a country to country level.
And so I would say that anycountry that has an international
transnational adoption trade hasbeen, has suffered under the weight
of global colonialism in some way.
And so then if we zoom backinto the individual real
(27:04):
quick, what does that do to us?
Transnational, transracial adopteeswhen we're in reunion and there
maybe is financial hardship issuffering in our birth family.
Some of us don't have the means tohelp, and actually I think that's more
concrete and can be simpler as faras, I just, I really can't help you.
(27:27):
Where is it when maybe we can,but maybe we're not comfortable.
Maybe we don't feel safe, meaning.
How do you trust in the fact thatif you don't give the money that the
people will still be around and evenif you give it freely, it's care.
(27:49):
We talked to us earlier in the episode.
There's an associationwith money and care.
So what is it as an adult, adopted,trafficked person to provide care
for people that did not care for you?
And how do we make peace with that?
It's just all extremely complicated.
I'm moving through so muchof this myself right now.
(28:11):
Having moved home to Columbia,my mother's health is not well.
She has had a tremendously difficult life.
She worked harder then maybeanyone I know sacrificed her body.
That's what's going onwith her health right now.
Quite literally, like she sacrificedher body for years working on her
(28:33):
hands and knees, cooking, sewing, sleepdeprivation, like so many sacrifices
just to keep my siblings clothed and fed.
And now at this stage in her life, herhealth is so bad that she cannot work.
How is that fair?
What is she supposed to do?
What am I supposed to do?
(28:54):
Just watch her suffer.
But also, I am a 38-year-old child,free by choice woman that chose
financial independence for a reason.
I have financial independence thatmy female ancestors could never
dream of, and now I'm taking onthis responsibility for my mom.
Not all the time, but when she's with me,I'm 100% financially responsible for her
(29:19):
and the emotions that have come with that,even though I have clarity of thought.
And clarity of heartabout what I wanna do.
That doesn't mean that there'snot younger parts of me screaming
and flipping out about how unfair,but what is the concrete solution?
(29:39):
Sometimes there isn't one, and again,we're back to this injustice that I
think is at the center of so many adoptedand trafficked feelings of the intense
injustice from the individual levelto the community level, to the country
level, to the global level, right?
It just billows out and who getscrushed at the center of it.
Haley Radke (30:01):
I just thought we were just taking a really light subject.
No, it's not light, but,
okay.
So we've really set up all the hard, thecomplicated, all the things for folks.
How can we set up and build a sense offinancial safety, abundance confidence
(30:29):
with money decisions now, if thoseare things that we're struggling with?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I think also what was (30:36):
undefined
our financial education?
What did it look like in thefamilies we were raised in?
Was there any, or was money one ofthose things that was not talked about?
And again, I'm like still on injustice ofcourse, because it's not fair that if you
did not receive any financial educationeither in your home or in school.
(30:57):
I could also rant about that, how we,that's not part of our education and
even those of us sometimes with likeadvanced degrees, it was never part of it.
No financial training,no business training.
That it's, yeah.
Like we don't have enough things todo around our healing, but I do, I
would advise adopted and traffickedpeople to seek some education if you
(31:20):
don't feel financially literate toseek out some education around that,
whether that's like reading a bookor listening to podcasts or hiring
a coach or whatever that looks like.
Because I do think we're at risk to havean unhealthy relationship with money
and we deserve security and safety.
Haley Radke (31:41):
What are like one or two things that we can do just as practice.
I'm thinking like how do weteach ourselves that it's
safe, we're in charge of it.
Those kinds of things even be it.
(32:02):
Making with making decision making,just like how you were explaining your
situation with your mom right now.
Like how do you set yourself up forsuccess with, okay, I know I'm able
to do this and this is my boundary,any sort of things like that, little
advice, things you can give on that.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: It's a little giant one, right? (32:19):
undefined
Do you know how much money you have?
Do you know what'scoming in and coming out?
A lot of us have shame about evenlooking directly at those numbers,
and I think technology makes iteasier than ever to look away.
If you don't want to,we just go click bing.
(32:41):
We click a button, or we like tapand it's all, and none of it's real.
And so a first step, and this was myfirst step years ago when I did money
coaching, is to look into the numbers,to literally sit and look at them and
confront whatever comes up about that.
Haley Radke (32:59):
Be in reality.
Let's welcome you to reality.
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. (33:02):
undefined
Yeah.
Haley Radke (33:03):
That's great.
And there's so many things about budgetingand there's so many resources about that,
that doesn't have to be anything adopteerelated, but if you're struggling more
in this area, I think it'd be a greatthing to dig into with your therapist.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Absolutely. (33:22):
undefined
Haley Radke (33:23):
Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Take it to therapy and because there (33:23):
undefined
are so many emotions involved, andthen I think my other advice would
be my classic Marta advice, whichis don't be alone with it too.
Like I've had a lot of clients that havethe big shame triggers around money.
All these things seeksupport from loved ones.
If looking at those numbers isoverwhelming, can someone who loves
(33:45):
you sit next to you while you dothat and help you regulate your
nervous system while you confrontthe reality of whatever's going on?
Haley Radke (33:55):
I'm working on this new show and I'm about to need a bunch of
money, so it's really stressful to askfor people to help when you're so used
to doing everything by yourself andbeing fully independent and just, yeah,
it feels very difficult to ask for help.
(34:15):
But.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think that's such an important piece. (34:16):
undefined
They're highlighting too, around thetriggers around all of this, which
is like if we do get ourselves intorough financial situations, like how
much powerlessness comes up, right?
And powerlessness is again oneof those feelings that vibrates
right down to the primal wound.
And I think, we know adoptedand trafficked or not.
(34:40):
People can make really extreme decisionswhen they feel out of control financially.
It's a high risk factor to have.
Haley Radke (34:49):
All right, so we welcome you all to be in reality with us.
Thank you so much, Marta.
I really loved your originalanswer to this question, so we're
gonna cut it and we're gonna putit at the very end of the show.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. (35:03):
undefined
Haley Radke (35:04):
For people to listen to so they can hear our hot takes.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I don't remember what I said. (35:06):
undefined
Haley Radke (35:08):
Oh it was great, and I had some great observations too, so
we both, we just both come out on top.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. (35:13):
undefined
Great.
Haley Radke (35:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I don't really remember either.
But we're gonna, we're you'll, you'regonna hear it very soon, right away.
But first, I know you'redoing lots of amazing things.
Now that you have relocated andare doing all this online work,
where can people connect with you,hear what's coming up for you?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So I do have a public Instagram (35:32):
undefined
now it's Sierra, S-I-E-R-R-A, dotspeaks dot verdad, V-E-R-D-A-D.
That's truth in Spanish.
You can follow me there.
And there's information on the groupsthat I'm running and probably will
continue to add some more new groupsthis coming year, so stay tuned.
(35:54):
That's a great way to just be inthe know if you are interested in
groups with me and my practice emailis also on my Instagram, which is
also on the Adoptees On website, butthat's martasierralmhc@gmail.com.
And I have three groupsthat are taking members.
I have a wait list right now for asecond cohort of navigating transnational
(36:15):
reunion, a therapeutic support group fortransnational adult adoptees, currently
navigating transnational reunionswhere you travel back and forth and
your heart is in two places at once.
That time is TBD, because I'm gonna waittill the cohort fills and get everybody's
consent on a time, but a weeknight.
Sometime between 6:00 to 8:00PM Eastern Standard is probably
(36:38):
generally where that will land.
All my groups are $25 via Venmo.
I also have room in my homecominggroup that's a therapeutic support
group for transnational adultadoptees currently living in their
homelands or planning to move backeither temporarily or permanently.
So that group is running, so that'sMondays 6-7:15 Eastern Standard biweekly.
(37:03):
The other one's biweekly as well.
So I have room in that for new members.
And then I'm starting upLiberation and Abolition Group.
That's a therapeutic support group foradult survivors of adoption, adoptees
of color, currently navigating theterror of trying to survive under
empire who are oriented towardsliberation and abolition in all forms.
(37:23):
To be in community together andraise our voices against oppression.
This is an affinity space forpeople of the global majority
and an open process group.
And that is Thursdays 6-7:30Eastern Standard Time biweekly.
Come join us.
Haley Radke (37:40):
Okay.
That is amazing.
I love that you have those and so neededand the wait list, like of course Marta's
an expert in all these things and Iknow that she can help guide many of
you through as an expert through reallychallenging circumstances that you're
navigating yourself and have navigated.
So thank you.
(38:00):
What a gift to our community.
Thank you so much for your wisdom, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Thanks Haley. (38:04):
undefined
Haley Radke (38:05):
What a pleasure to get to talk with you.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Always great to chat. (38:08):
undefined
Thanks, Haley.
Haley Radke (38:12):
I've been waiting to ask you this question.
This is my most anticipatedquestion for you.
Okay?
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. (38:18):
undefined
Haley Radke (38:20):
Finally, someone said it out loud.
Can we talk wills?
I promise I'm not moneygrubbing, but this has me livid.
I found out that my bio mom has lefther kept kids, everything, and I
won't get anything when she passes.
Where is the equality?
This could break our reunion, frankly.
(38:42):
What's the ethical thingto do in this situation?
I don't even know how to bring it up withher without sounding like I'm counting
her money and waiting for her to die.
Am I the only one?
Tell me I'm not crazy.
She doesn't know that I know, andI think she's hiding it because
she knows it's not fair or equal.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Ugh. (39:00):
undefined
Yeah I was glad to see this question too.
I think that it, yeah.
A lot of people aren't maybe talkingabout it like, I love the start, right?
Can we talk about this?
Yes, we could talk about it.
Of course.
We could talk about it.
And I think issues around inheritanceon both sides, on adoptive and
biological sides are huge triggers.
(39:21):
Everybody has a lot of feelings about it.
And the biggest, I think.
I don't wanna say mistake,but misunderstanding about it
is that it's about the money.
And I think because of that'swhy there's silence around it.
And why people don't wanna talkabout this topic in public or
in front of other people becauseit sounds like it's about money.
(39:41):
'cause we're talking wills andwe're talking inheritance, but
it's not about money at all.
If you're adopted, it'snot even about the money.
It's about belonging, respect, feelingseen, feeling acknowledged, mattering
to the other people and equality asshe said, and about being an equal
with whether that's other siblings orother family members, whatever it is.
(40:04):
So I just, again, for anyone strugglingwith this, I just wish for you to
wrap your feelings and compassionand shake that shame off because
this isn't, it's not about money.
Our feelings about money arelinked to feelings about care.
So it's a really emotional topic, truly.
And I think, my advice and aroundbringing this up would be to go
(40:27):
to, to stay in that, to stay in thefeelings, not the why am I not getting
anything, but why did you decide this?
Can you tell me about that?
Because I feel really hurt.
The impact of finding this out andfinding it out not from you, is that
I don't matter and, and I would justlike to know a little bit about your
(40:49):
thinking and your feeling around it.
Versus why did you leave me out?
Really going to like what?
Because as I often say when we'retalking reunion stuff it's so easy
to make assumptions about why someonedid what they did or didn't do, what
they didn't do, and it's just can be alot more complicated and most likely.
(41:10):
Fear is driving decisions.
So if this person really wants answers,what, how much curiosity can they bring
to this conversation of, I'd love toknow like why you decided this, if
you can tell me a little bit about it.
Because I feel really hurt and I feelreally confused and really overwhelmed
and I don't wanna feel any of those ways.
But the impact of this on mewas feeling like I'm not as
(41:33):
important as your other kids.
And.
I am gonna imagine that'snot how you want me to feel.
So can you tell me a littlebit about why you did this?
Haley Radke (41:42):
Also sometimes when we hear secondhand information,
it's not always accurate, so I'mnot saying that in this case, but.
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: No, I love that. (41:49):
undefined
That's a great point Haley.
Is this true?
That's a great place to start.
Haley Radke (41:55):
Yeah.
People love stirring updrama when bio or adopt,
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: especially around this topic too. (42:00):
undefined
Yes.
Haley Radke (42:03):
Sure.
Yeah.
And if you have a falling out,maybe you won't get anything like,
Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC (42:09):
yes
Haley Radke (42:09):
it's a, you don't always know what people's intentions are.
Okay, friend.
This is our last episode untilwe'll be back in September with
brand new episodes for you.
In the meantime, there's lots of bonuscontent over on our Patreon, which also
(42:32):
will be still going through the summer.
So if you wanna join us for a bookclub, ask an adoptee therapist,
our adoptees off script parties.
Just come.
We would love to have you.
It's, we're a good time, I promise.
And if you think I can't filter myselfon the main feed here, you'd be surprised
(42:54):
of the things I say on off script.
I'm surpris, I'm surprised ofthe things I say on off script.
I would like to sharewith you my exciting news.
I'm actually not takinga vacation this summer.
Instead, I am full in workingon a brand new podcast.
You may have heard me talkabout this show before the hopes
(43:19):
and dreams for this project.
You have likely heard me talkabout why I make you know, biweekly
episodes instead, it's because I'vebeen working on this project in
the background for all this time.
Which has meant a lot of brainstorming,connecting with people, team
(43:41):
building lawyering, all kinds oflogistical adulty things, if you will.
I am so excited andpassionate about this project.
I believe that it's our turn to telleveryone about adoptions impact on
adoptees and birth first parents, and sowe are making the podcast to do just that.
(44:08):
If you want to stay informed andup to date on what we are doing,
you can go to onadoption.net.
It has a newsletter, sign up.
And we invite you to join ournewsletter list, you'll be the
first to know if we're looking forguests, you wanna be a part of it.
(44:30):
If you're looking to get involvedin some way, the opportunities will
first show up on that newsletter.
And we also have our social mediagoing on Instagram @onadoption.
I hope to bring you many more greatupdates, but right now I'm in the midst of
(44:51):
recording with some very special motherswho've placed child for adoption and they
are bearing their souls and it is reallydifficult work and so important, and I
can't wait to be able to share this witheveryone because it's so deeply important.
(45:18):
Family preservation is justa deep passion of mine.
I know it is of many of yours.
And so we also are starting a newnonprofit that's called Adoptees for
Family Preservation, and we're gonnatell you more about that soon as well.
So many huge things happening.
(45:40):
Thank you for being a part of it.
And whether you're supporting AdopteesOn Patreon listening to the episodes,
sharing them with your friends, anyof those things, you are helping
this ecosystem stay alive and well.
And I thank you for it.
Thank you for prioritizing adoptee voices.
(46:01):
Thank you for listening.
Let's talk again very soon.
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