April 4, 2025 • 50 mins
301 | [Healing Series] Wounds of Childhood with Anna Linde, Sexologist
This is a special episode in our Healing Series where we bring on adoptee experts to tackle issues that may impact our mental health. Most often we’re talking with therapists but today I invited Anna Linde, a sexologist, to talk with us about the impacts of childhood sexual abuse on adopted people. This issue is so prevalent in our community and yet hardly anyone ever talks about it. We’ve talked about so many difficult things on the show that I think we’re finally ready. So although we do keep this to a high level discussion, please take care when deciding if this a safe episode for you to listen to.
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This podcast is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to AdopteesOn the podcast where adoptees
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discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
This is a special episode in ourhealing series where we bring on
adoptee experts to tackle issuesthat may impact our mental health.
Most often we're talking withtherapists, but today I invited
Anna Linde a sexologist to talk withus about the impacts of childhood
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sexual abuse on adopted people.
This issue is so prevalent inour community, and yet hardly
anyone ever talks about it.
We have talked about so manydifficult things on this show
that I think we're finally ready.
So we do keep this to a high leveldiscussion, but please take care
when deciding if this is a safeepisode for you to listen to.
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We also always have transcripts available.
If that feels like a lesstriggering option for you, there
is a link in the show notes.
Before we get started, I wantto personally invite you to join
our Patreon adoptee community onadopteeson.com/community, which helps
support you and also the show tosupport more adoptees around the world.
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Links to everything we'll be talking abouttoday are on the website, adopteeson.com.
Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcometo Adoptees On Anna Linde.
Welcome Anna.
How are you?
Thank you.
I'm great and I'm happy to be here.
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I'm so glad to finally speak with you andyou are a multicultural world traveler.
And why don't you start by sharingjust a little bit of your story
with us, because I think it will hithow many countries you've been in.
True.
So I am adopted from Brazil.
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And I'm raised in Sweden.
So I lived maybe my first 34 yearsin Sweden, some something like this.
And then we moved to Spainand we lived in Portugal.
And we were traveling around inEurope and now we live in Thailand
since one and a half years.
Amazing.
That's a lot of places.
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And you are a sexologist, which somepeople might not know what that term is.
Can you tell us what led you tostudy that and what is a sexologist?
What led me to study sexology is when Ihad my kids and I realized how much of
my own story and background and rootsand fear that was included automatically
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in the experience of giving birth.
And then when I was sitting in thatsituation, or when I was giving birth,
and I had all of these questions comingup from my body, and I had all of the
other questions that I had already inmy head, I was hoping to find a way on
how to make meaning out of them somehow.
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And I already had mybachelor in social work.
So then when I got a divorce, I wasGoogling what was possible to study
and I found sexology for this master.
So then I thought, yeah, why not?
How could sex be boring?
What's the first
It really isn't
Somehow, but yeah.
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But of course it's different tostudy it than if you think about it.
That's a funny.
Funny thing, but it's really beenan eyeopener in so many ways.
So I'm very happy for that choice.
And so when you think about how youwere taken from Brazil and brought to
Sweden and the critiques of adoptionthat Sweden has now been having now
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in the early 2020s what was the impactthat adoption had on you and how do you
see it now from the adult perspective?
So I think it's important to makea difference in what you think
personally from your own story, becauseI think in from that perspective,
we will all have very differentexperiences or very different thoughts.
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I'm very privileged because I've beento Brazil and I met my biological mom.
I met everybody in my family.
So for me personally, I've been ableto make a little closure with that
part of me, or the not knowing partor the why did you gave me away part.
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So I think if I wouldn't have thatexperience, I would think totally
different about adoption, but.
Based on what I just said I thinkSweden deserves all the critique.
I think there's a lot of stupidity,a lot of mistakes that are not
mistakes, but that are planned.
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And there's a lot of bleepthat has been ongoing.
So I'm very happy that Swedenfinally gets critique for what is
not okay that has been going on.
But me personally, I think I have a veryprivileged situation or relationship
to my adoption with good connectionwith my adoptive parents, with good
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opportunities and not so many mentalhealth challenges as many others.
That's, that of course makesit easier to just look at the
critique and feel that I'm upset.
It's upsetting what has been goingon, but I'm also feeling more of a
calm feeling inside that finally,the truth is here and many people can
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get some ratification now instead.
Definitely.
I'm finding it very fascinating watchingthe implications for international
adoption and what countries aredeciding to do on a case by case basis.
And I think we're living ininteresting times, Anna where
the truth is being revealed.
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So that's good.
Anyway, we didn't come to talkabout that today specifically.
We came to talk about something evenmore difficult and in our first meeting
I was sharing with you that over theyears of doing this show, I have had
a heartbreaking number of adopteesreach out to me to either share their
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personal experiences with having receivedsexual abuse at either the hands of an
adoptive parent or an adopted sibling,or extended family member, or looking
for help with these things, and Ioften didn't know where to send them.
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And it's like a taboo topic andit's such a difficult thing to
talk about because I think it's waymore prevalent than people think.
And of course there's reasons forthat and we can talk about that.
One of them being, I think, like I'lljust say, when you're adopted into a
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family, then the taboo of incestuousbehavior can be quote unquote removed
for the adoptive family members.
And so I just think we're just at ahigher risk for being taken advantage of.
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What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah.
So first of all, I think exactly likeyou're saying that this is such a, this
is a difficult topic to approach, but justto remind you how important your work is
being people, being able to even reachout to you about it and you catalyzing
it like this, making an episode about itso that we can, talk about it for all of
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these individuals that have emailed you,because then this episode is for them.
Of course.
And for everybody elsethat is affected by it.
And that's really important to just,remind us that even if a lot of people
are suffering and have been suffering,this is why what we're doing counts.
And it is importantbecause they are not alone.
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They are actually not at all alone.
No.
And from a Swedish perspective,which is a pretty good example, we
have a very colorblind ideology inSweden, which means that we don't
see color because it's racist.
Which is basically how I'm raised.
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But we are in the same time over focusingin color, which means that a lot of
adoptive parents and a lot of adultshave been, it's been possible for them to
express their desire of having childrenwith almond eyes or chocolate skin or
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these type of things and, getting awaywith expressing themself in this way.
And I'm also not saying thatthese individuals or these
parents have necessarily havehad an an evil plan with that.
But as a society, this have, openedthe doors for it being accepted for
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our bodies to be desired in this way.
And, having a body that's always visible.
As a child when adults or siblingsbut like, when adults are a part of
that desire, a part in looking atour bodies as others a part in, it
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being okay for them to be curious.
That's of course moving the boundariesor, the normal or like the wished way.
We want adults to interact with childrenwhen it comes to intimacy and sexuality.
So there's a lot of pieces in the puzzlearound adoptees and adoptee bodies.
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And another part that I think mattersis that we came to this family as a
transaction, or the transaction wasa big part of it, which also gives a
different flavor on what we mean whenwe talk about quality in a relationship.
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So there's a lot of subtle thingsand there's a lot of things that,
that, makes this complicated.
And also the idea of that we should begrateful because if I am raised with the
idea that I should be grateful of what Ihave, what I got in whatever that means.
That means that I'm will probably notsay no and I need to say no 'cause
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I learned that I should be grateful.
And if we then have a child thatdoesn't learn to say no, doesn't
learn that you are supposed to sayno, you have the right to say no.
You have the right to yourbody and to have privacy.
Rather the opposite, that wehave children that are, othered,
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racialized sexualized by adults andnobody's protecting them from it.
Then the distance or, the time spanfor being sexually abused or having
people that are supposed to be safe.
To, walk over those boundaries or intothat private space is much, much shorter.
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And I think that's a big problem.
All of these things that I said,I think all of them separately
is a really big problem.
And then, there's probably more thingsin this that matters, but for me, those
are the things that are the most visible.
It's a perfect storm, right?
All the things together.
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Yeah.
In your experience, do youthink that adoptees are
more more affected by thisthan the general population.
I don't like, we already always critiquethat there's not enough studies on
adoptees, and so I'm assuming thatthere's not really too many studies,
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especially on this particular topiceither, when frankly, we can't even get
accurate numbers of how many adoptedpeople there are, just as like a one.
But if we look how closely relatedadoption is to human trafficking,
unfortunately, then it's also veryeasy to think that sometimes what is
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actually trafficking gets the titleor name adoption because people can
get away with that somewhere somehow.
And that's one part that makesit really tricky, I think to
actually see what is what.
Also, because of all of the differentlegalizations and laws in different
countries and corruption and all ofthese things that has been possible
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because of corruption, because of theadults working in these organizations.
But if you just look at any personwho is traumatized, they will always
have a different, understandingof the rights to have boundaries.
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They will because they have been,walked over or it could be bullied,
it could be whatever type of trauma asadoption is a trauma for that child.
Then, if you're acting out, then youare in more danger of meeting people
that are, going to answer to thosebehavior in maybe a negative way.
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Also in the same way, if you are,very different, you are very visible.
And if you're very visible,then people see you.
So there's a lot of things that Ithink makes adoptees in more danger for
things, but also because we have a lotof already mental health challenges,
issues, and all of the other, followingproblems and challenges for us in general.
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So I would say yes, based on that.
How would we not get more problems or getmore in, dangerous situations as well.
So this is one of those things that peoplemostly keep private, there's a great sense
of shame, meaning, it was my fault or Ideserved it, or those kinds of things.
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So you just keep it secret or hidden.
When someone has put that away,what are some of the things that
can happen in their lives that theymight not necessarily attribute to
this hidden childhood sexual abuse,but can come out in other ways?
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Maladaptive behaviors, let's say.
So first of all, just to,to name what we're talking
about when we're saying shame.
One thing that is really common isthat adoptees, we swallow shame better
than others because we are alreadycarrying a lot of shame around our
identities, as in not being able tostay in my own family, or the idea that
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it has to be something wrong with me.
Because my mom didn't keep me orwhatever thoughts that is, or whatever
words there is to describe it.
But many have and feel a strongsense of shame over their existence,
over their, their position inthe world over their destinies.
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So adding more shame to that mightnot be the biggest deal for some.
But it just melts in with everything else.
And then it might not affect them as muchcompared to others, but this is a very, it
can be so different from every individual.
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Also depending on which ageyou're in and everything else.
But for many people and manyadoptees that has experienced
sexual abuse or trauma are usuallypretty disconnected to their bodies.
Which means that, sex might work,it might be pretty much as it should
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from their perspective or their ideaof how a sex should work or be, but
it might also be that they're notfeeling or experiencing pleasure.
They're not feeling that sex orsexual connection is something that
is liberating, is something that isplayful, is something that is funny
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and it's something that they have theright to choose a hundred percent if
they wanna be involved with or not.
But it could also be as certain thingsor certain situations like being,
becoming pregnant, for example, orgetting the information that you know,
I'm going to be a father or whateverit might be for that person, might
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trigger something connected to thisshame, which might make it impossible
for those people to even want to touchsomebody else or wanting to be touched.
But the strong longing in general thatwe have for finding our way home and
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melting together with somebody again or,becoming one or, returning to that place
where we are supposed to be and wherethings were supposed to be different.
And I'm talking in a very subconsciouslevel now, but sex could also
be, a way to represent that.
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So between, the one side not wanting tobe intimate, not wanting to have sexual
connections at all, not enjoying it,to having much more than what might be,
in the best interest of that person inthat time because of that longing or
because we are re, redoing somethingor we are trying to figure something
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out that's not a hundred percent clear.
That could also put us in pretty trickysituations because usually we don't
feel good at all if we're having sexfor a reason, that we're actually
not really a hundred percent clear.
What that reason is
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For someone who maybe hasn't toldanybody about this at all and is
keeping it secret all these years.
It is now oh, maybe thisis impacting my life.
Maybe I should look at the pastand like maybe examine this and
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bring it into the light and workon healing from this trauma.
This can be really scaryand feel life threatening.
What are some ways that.
You can open the door or know that you'resafe to do let's say safe to look at
something that can be so terrifying.
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I've just, for majority of people,this is how it feels, that it is
terrifying, because even if we feelthat shame or that guilt or that fear
or whatever strong emotion it might be.
When we accept that it's there, itusually, blows up to a hundred percent
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strength and it feels like it mightactually kill us, but that's not,
that's not what it, what's goingto happen, or that's not how it is.
But I would say maybe write it down.
Start by writing what you remember.
Or what happened, or write downhow this episode feels to listen
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on, because it's not only, nowI'm going to go and heal this.
I need to fix it.
But it's also allowing yourself tolook at this that happened in your
own pace and being with yourself.
Because almost everyone who has beenexposed or violated sexually has
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had, have the experience of havingtheir bodies for somebody else.
And if we are going to, move back toyour bodies for you, your sexual or
intimate connections is for you, then weneed to go backwards and restore that.
In every place that it's possible.
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So writing it down what you remember, whatyou are thinking about, allowing yourself
to feel everything that you're feelingabout it, angry, sad, disappointed,
disgusted, everything then feel it, writeit down and be with yourself in that.
But also that shame andguilt, usually both.
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The tricky part is toremember and to understand and
remember that it's not yours.
The shame is not ours becausewe got exposed for something.
The shame is the other personor persons, the abusers that
overstepped your boundaries inthis like tragic and horrible ways.
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And maybe multiple times they aresupposed to feel this shame because
shame is socially here for us toknow how to navigate being with other
people and because then you feel theshame that they are supposed to feel.
It's called secondary shame.
That's also a thing.
You can Google shame and secondaryshame and just get that concept
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into your head so that you canstart to make a difference.
And that's two things that I thinkeverybody can do and should do, can do.
But I'm also thinking it'simportant to think forward.
Like what would you like, whatis the best, what is the goal?
What is the best outcome?
Like, where do you want to go?
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What does healing mean for you?
And I talk a lot about sexual liberation,then maybe also that, what does that mean?
For you personally or for the personlisten personally and start to look at
that, because with that, as in frontof us or with that as an idea, then
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it's actually possible to start tonavigate towards, but without an idea
of what it means to be free or healed.
Which maybe means, I would start to dateagain, or I would start to date, ever.
I never did or I would be more brave.
I would try new things or Iwould take initiative or, it
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can be so many different things.
So to start to think about that aswell, to not get totally stuck in
the pain or in the emotional, likeanxiety and mess that it's always a
mess when we're trying to heal us.
And what about for people who havemaintained contact or relationship
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with the perpetrators and what doesthat look like into adulthood if
you're starting to examine this?
I don't know if you have tipson this or ideas for support.
'cause this is this is a big one.
Yeah, that's a tricky one.
And the first thing I'm thinking iseverybody who does this has a reason.
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Nobody does it becauseit's logic and made sense.
And it was in the book thatwe were supposed to do it.
Everybody has a reason and that reason,whatever that reason is, it's okay.
We cannot do more than our best.
And staying in contact withthat person or those persons.
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And if it's the parents or therelatives, which is, common.
Also siblings, like you said, also common.
It's also the, it might be the onlyfamily we got and if you're in that
position that you feel no, thatthis is the only family you got.
You also heard that you'resupposed to be grateful.
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And you're trying to balancethat, that experience with, I
might lose exactly everybody, andI'm nobody and nobody wants me.
That that's that's not funny.
That's a bleep situation to be in.
So for anybody who felt that they neededto choose between those two things,
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that choice cannot have been easy.
And it's probably haunting them every day.
And a lot of respect for everybody inthat situation, trying to do their best
with something that is really hard forpeople in general to understand or to
even grasp, because people don't get it.
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And it's the same with a lotof people having a hard time
leaving a partner that is abusive.
But it's a similar fear because ifthe fear of abandonment or the fear of
being alone is that strong, we cannotleave, then, that's a strong fear.
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Otherwise, it would've been easierto make a decision based on logic.
But majority of people are not doing that.
So it's not, it's not so easy.
Also, actually people who have theexperience of being sexually abused
or, physically abused, it's veryeasy to accidentally also become
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somebody that is abusing others.
And then the shame and guilt is double.
And then how, how the hell,what, how do you get out of that?
Because you usually get a lot of,moral and punishment from the society
from being an abuser or somebody thatis violating other people's rights.
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And it's also important thatmajority of, people abusing others
have this experience as well.
They were abused when theygrew up, and that's it.
Like we need to remember that as well.
And I do this type of work.
I coach people also around sexual traumaof course, because it's a very big thing.
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So I'm thinking if somebody like havean immediate question or feels like they
would like to know more or have more,I don't know, ideas on what to do, then
they could just send me an email maybeand better than emailing you in this case.
I would also say.
Yeah, I can't help you.
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I can't help you.
No.
If people ever wonder why I closed downall my dms and why my emails are private,
it's things like this, Anna, I'm laughingabout it, but it's so difficult to
hear people's deep traumatic events andknow, there's nothing I can do to help.
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I'm so sorry.
It just, it's a weight that peoplecarry and I don't I don't want you
to have to carry that, I want you toget help and support and heal from
these things, and I can't help you.
No, but it's not, you're notsupposed to know how to do it
unless you learn how to do it also.
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Yes.
Because it's, it is tricky.
And it was tricky for me, and I thinkevery, every professional experience
that it's tricky in the beginning andit's probably different for us that
have experience of similar thingsor similar experiences, probably
different for us in this position.
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But I would say it's, it's important toprotect yourself from getting overwhelmed
because then we are accidentally in anew trauma somehow, then I would say
it's better to do this, that we talkand we are talking about it like this.
And if also if I get a lot of question,we can do a follow up and we could
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answer those questions together.
This could also be a way to pin downthings not to traumatize everybody else
but we can probably make that work.
Some point.
Let's talk about this.
How would you like, give us some tips,like what are some things we can do to
navigate, so you talked about writing aletter to ourselves or like recording what
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happened or what you hope will happen ifyou examine this and do some healing work.
How do you find supports.
I don't think this is something peopleshould be doing on their own, frankly,
because it is so it's such a deep wound.
Anything sexual, it's just such a deepcore woundedness, that you're touching.
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Yeah, it is, and I think we are alittle, in general, we're a little out
of resources to handle, sexual health ingeneral in the world, which is a sad part.
I put together a group together withKatherine Garland, and she wrote a
book about being addicted to sex orlike overusing sex and what she did,
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how she did, and why she did it.
So we have a two day course or a twoday two session workshop where we're
going to talk more about this in May.
So for anybody who's interested, you canfind that link at your page somewhere.
Yeah, we'll definitely put it inthe show notes for folks for sure.
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And if you're listening in thefuture, we'll put whatever else
Anna's got coming up for you.
But I would say it'sexactly like you're saying.
We do need to heal in communitybecause we need community as well.
But I would suggest that we lookcloser to what does it actually mean?
Because you already survived this.
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You survived it big time.
Now we just need to look closer atthe symptoms and at the consequences
of your survival and make surethat you are reaching the best
level in your sexual health in yourlife in, what it means for you.
But you can always, remindyourself that you are a survivor.
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You're not, this is not something that,you know, even if you replay this in
your head, but if this is not somethingthat is happening to you now, today,
tomorrow, yesterday, then you survivedit, and that's really important.
Because you, you did already.
And then you can look at what did I do?
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Like what strategies haveI been using already?
And are they good or are they not?
But I also am thinking if you have areally good friend, then maybe it's
possible to tell that friend thatsomething bad happened to me when
I was younger and I never thoughtabout it this much as I'm doing now.
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But I am, and I'm going to look for away to handle this differently 'cause
I realize that, this is affecting mea lot and I just needed to say it.
With, with, keep the information,keep most of the details for you
because people are really badin handling details in general.
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Around adoptees we very often get tohear that we're supposed to be grateful.
What would've happened if you stayed,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, which is a hundred percentnot what you wanna hear when you're
sharing something that is important.
So also, keep yourself safe from that.
When people are starting to look at thisand examine and do some healing work, like
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what are some things you can look for toknow that your, your work on it is helping
and is freeing you from this shame?
That's a really good question.
And it's hard work.
It's like everything we do, it's hardwork and our sexual identity is one of
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the layers of identities that we haveand that we walk around in every day.
And for, for me to express mysexuality in a way that, I can
incorporate that I deserve pleasure.
That means that my sexual identity andeverything else that I'm carrying in my
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body needs to be in line with I deservepleasure or I deserve to have a good life.
And sometimes these two things are not,they're not correlating, but only from,
a sexual perspective, a sexual healthperspective, is that you deserve pleasure.
And that's the first thing I would say.
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You deserve it.
You're not supposed to do anythingor have sex because you should,
because that's what we do.
That's what expected, no,it's not like it's not.
We have the right to redefine this andwe should continue to redefine this all
the time and the right to feel pleasure.
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It's not only sexually, but that'semotionally, that's mentally that,
physically, that socially we have theright to feel pleasure about what we're
doing, where we are in the contextwe're in, or what, whatever's going on.
And one way to look at that is ofcourse, what does it mean for me to feel
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pleasure sexually and how is that insituations where I'm alone with my body?
I want to touch myself.
I want to explore then do Iknow what is pleasurable or not?
Do I feel it?
Do I know?
Do I, do I, could I write thelist of five things I like or is
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it just a, a surprise every time?
Because then maybe exploringourselves more what we actually like.
It's like choosing writing a listof five dishes you like to eat.
Because we are supposed toactually know what we like, so
we can navigate towards that.
And with that, of course,take the time to redefine sex.
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What does it mean?
What kind of attitudes do we have?
What kind of ideas do I haveabout what is normal or not?
What is okay or not what I should do ornot like, what is going on in my head?
And usually these normsmirror, the society as it is.
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But it could also mirror theidea I have about myself and
the ideas I have about sex.
So if I have a lot of negative experiencesor one negative experience, then I
might, think or feel that sex is, it isunsafe for me to have sex, it's unsafe
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for me to be in sexual connection.
And it's, that's how it is.
And we can make new meanings.
We have the right to do that.
But then again, we need to know whatkind of new moods we want to have.
And what is important.
Okay.
I'm gonna interrupt the questionbecause I'm curious what you think
(36:48):
about this in trying to think abouteven what we like and you mentioned
like dishes we like and things.
So many of us struggle withboundaries and this is so connected.
Yeah.
Yes.
It is because if we're not, ifwe don't know what a true no is.
(37:11):
And it's very hard for us to know howa yes feels and they come together.
It's really, it's a lot of people thatthinks and feels that it's scary to say,
no, we don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings.
We don't wanna make anybody sad.
We might never learn thatit's okay for us to say no.
(37:31):
And when we say no, somebody's, giving usguilt or shaming us for what we're saying.
If we're never able to express a no,that's not for me, or no, I'm not hungry,
or no I don't want it, or whatever itmight be, then we will have a really hard
(37:52):
time knowing where our yes are as well.
So for anybody who, feels this, thatwe're saying, a lot of people are
bad in saying no and not feelingthat it's okay to have boundaries.
Then I would say, you can remindyourself of who is the person that
(38:12):
is the most difficult to say no to,and who around you is the person that
is the most easiest to say no to?
And remind yourself that's howdifferent it could be only between
people that you met or that youhave around you, but also in which
(38:33):
situation is it okay for you to say no?
Is it okay to say no thank youI'm not going to buy anything when
you're walking out from a store?
Or do you also get a bad feeling, notbuying anything because you think whatever
you might think about the person workingthere, being sad or whatever it might be.
(38:54):
But also in, a sexual setting we're notsupposed to do anything that we don't want
so that the other person will not get sad.
I'm like that's a very, that's avery not beautiful and not amazing
way to look at sexual health.
And I try to say this to kids, toteenagers, when I have those type
(39:18):
of groups and especially to theirparents that do you want your
13-year-old to give somebody a blowjobafter school because otherwise that
person would get, would feel sad.
Is that a valid, is it a valid reason?
Because it's not, and thenthis is not how we're supposed
to think about it in general.
(39:39):
That's a good point.
That's a very good point Anna.
Um, I really appreciate you talking tous about this extremely difficult topic.
I think you've given usa lot to think about.
Is there any last things youwanna leave us with before we tell
people where we can connect withyou and find out more resources?
(40:02):
I think, the more youthink about sexual health.
The more you think about sexology,the more you realize that it's not
only something about me and somebodyelse, or me and other people, but
it's about norms in the societythat tells us what is okay or not.
(40:23):
And it's about ideas from culture orfrom religions or from politicians
that are creating what is actuallypossible to do or not in so
many different ways and levels.
And we can, we canchallenge this all the time.
(40:44):
And one way that I, it's funnyto challenge for yourself is to
just, you can ask yourself, whichwords am I comfortable in using?
If I would describe my body, forexample, then which words am I
actually comfortable in using?
Would I like when you, now maybe I cannotsay these words now because I realize that
you're going to air this and you, mightget sensored but which words is okay?
(41:08):
Which words can you use?
And is there other words that you're notusing and what happens if you use them?
What happens if you useone of those words instead?
Can you practice?
What happens if yousay that word 10 times?
It could be so easy.
So so to say the word period,like I'm on my period.
(41:30):
Okay.
But is that are you feeling stressedor anxious about using that word?
Then maybe that's something to practice.
That's a thing.
That's how we can actually changewhat we're doing and what is going on.
Okay.
I was thinking in my head of all thewords and I was like, please don't make
(41:52):
me say any of these words and you didn't.
So thanks.
Trying not to say them out loud becauseusually I just say them out loud.
Yes.
And now I was like.
Maybe you need to cut them off.
No, that's a lot of work.
That's tricky.
And then I thought, okay, I reallyneed to work now not to say that.
We'll just have a string ofbeeps in here and then people
(42:13):
will just imagine what you said.
No.
Okay.
Where can we connect with you online andfind out about working with you or other
courses or things that you're offering?
I do a lot of things.
A lot of things.
So I have an individual coachingprogram where there is prerecorded like
(42:35):
sessions or like homework sessions,exercises, and you still get, I think
it's nine, I don't remember right now.
I think it's nine individualsessions and the handouts to every
team that we're working with.
So that's one way that is maybethe easiest one to work with me.
(42:56):
Otherwise, I have groups togetherwith other professionals and
other colab partners becauseit's funny to do things together.
This group in May that I was talking aboutis the closest one or one closest in time.
Easiest is to find meat, I think Substack,
(43:17):
theadoptedsexologist.Substack.com.
And on Instagram, I'malso theadoptedsexologist.
Which is also my webpage,theadoptedsexologist.com.
I'm trying not to be so complicated.
Let's see.
I, it's too complicated anyway, but Ithink Substack is the best place because
(43:37):
there I also have some recordingstrying to do some podcasting on my own.
Upload some freebies and stuff.
That's fun.
Perfect.
We will link to all those things.
And your newly published article,Who I Am or Who You Make Me To
Be, Adult Adoptees Imprisoned byExpectations and Intimate Meetings.
(43:57):
So folks can read a littlemore of your research there.
That's correct.
I don't celebrate that enough actually.
Thank you for reminding us.
Oh, absolutely.
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to share thisepisode with listeners and for folks
to pass it on to, people who've beenimpacted by childhood sexual abuse.
(44:18):
I hope it's super helpful for them.
Thank you, Anna.
Thank you.
It was very nice to be here and very nicethat you take on such an important topic.
I hope that was helpful for you tothink through some of the impacts
(44:38):
that this may have had on you.
And I think, I don't think we've reallytalked about this in the episode, but I
really have this belief that our brainslet us know when we're ready to open
the next thing to work on, if we reallyexamined our whole lives and all the
(45:03):
traumatic things that have impacted usand we like, opened our brains up like a
book and just saw everything all at once.
No, nobody can handle that.
No human can handle.
And looking back at all these likecrazy things that have happened to them.
But I think our brains do things, acouple things at a time so we can be safe.
(45:26):
So only examine this if this feels likea safe time for you and you'll know.
I think you'll know.
I love that Anna is doing a workshop.
There are some resources linked in theshow notes for you and I, it's really
neat that she's a sexologist and she'slike a total expert in this area.
(45:48):
Lots of trauma-informed therapistslike that you may already be working
with will also be skilled and able tohelp you through some of these things.
If you're able to ask your therapistand open up that convo if they're not
able to, I'm sure they can also referyou on to a specialist in that area.
(46:09):
So get the professionalsupport that you deserve.
I know sometimes therapycan feel inaccessible and
often it is for many folks.
But there are so many amazingfree resources therapy supports
(46:29):
for adopted people expertsin this field more and more.
Don't just be like, oh, Ijust can't, don't do that.
Take good care of yourself.
We need you to be here.
And the more we work on these things,like we're just able to show up
for ourselves more and our peoplemore, and have a happier, healthier,
(46:56):
joy-filled, meaningful life.
And that's, isn't thatwhat it's all about?
I don't know.
That's my personal opinion.
Anyway, thank you for taking thetime to listen and I really hope you
had some good takeaways from this.
And if you do know someone who's had,who's experienced childhood sexual abuse
(47:22):
of some kind maybe share this episode withthem if you think it might be helpful.
And it can be a resource hopefully.
Thank you so much for listening.
Let's talk again soon.
This podcast is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to AdopteesOn the podcast where adoptees
(00:20):
discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
This is a special episode in ourhealing series where we bring on
adoptee experts to tackle issuesthat may impact our mental health.
Most often we're talking withtherapists, but today I invited
Anna Linde a sexologist to talk withus about the impacts of childhood
(00:43):
sexual abuse on adopted people.
This issue is so prevalent inour community, and yet hardly
anyone ever talks about it.
We have talked about so manydifficult things on this show
that I think we're finally ready.
So we do keep this to a high leveldiscussion, but please take care
when deciding if this is a safeepisode for you to listen to.
(01:06):
We also always have transcripts available.
If that feels like a lesstriggering option for you, there
is a link in the show notes.
Before we get started, I wantto personally invite you to join
our Patreon adoptee community onadopteeson.com/community, which helps
support you and also the show tosupport more adoptees around the world.
(01:29):
Links to everything we'll be talking abouttoday are on the website, adopteeson.com.
Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcometo Adoptees On Anna Linde.
Welcome Anna.
How are you?
Thank you.
I'm great and I'm happy to be here.
(01:49):
I'm so glad to finally speak with you andyou are a multicultural world traveler.
And why don't you start by sharingjust a little bit of your story
with us, because I think it will hithow many countries you've been in.
True.
So I am adopted from Brazil.
(02:09):
And I'm raised in Sweden.
So I lived maybe my first 34 yearsin Sweden, some something like this.
And then we moved to Spainand we lived in Portugal.
And we were traveling around inEurope and now we live in Thailand
since one and a half years.
Amazing.
That's a lot of places.
(02:31):
And you are a sexologist, which somepeople might not know what that term is.
Can you tell us what led you tostudy that and what is a sexologist?
What led me to study sexology is when Ihad my kids and I realized how much of
my own story and background and rootsand fear that was included automatically
(02:58):
in the experience of giving birth.
And then when I was sitting in thatsituation, or when I was giving birth,
and I had all of these questions comingup from my body, and I had all of the
other questions that I had already inmy head, I was hoping to find a way on
how to make meaning out of them somehow.
(03:21):
And I already had mybachelor in social work.
So then when I got a divorce, I wasGoogling what was possible to study
and I found sexology for this master.
So then I thought, yeah, why not?
How could sex be boring?
What's the first
It really isn't
Somehow, but yeah.
(03:42):
But of course it's different tostudy it than if you think about it.
That's a funny.
Funny thing, but it's really beenan eyeopener in so many ways.
So I'm very happy for that choice.
And so when you think about how youwere taken from Brazil and brought to
Sweden and the critiques of adoptionthat Sweden has now been having now
(04:07):
in the early 2020s what was the impactthat adoption had on you and how do you
see it now from the adult perspective?
So I think it's important to makea difference in what you think
personally from your own story, becauseI think in from that perspective,
we will all have very differentexperiences or very different thoughts.
(04:32):
I'm very privileged because I've beento Brazil and I met my biological mom.
I met everybody in my family.
So for me personally, I've been ableto make a little closure with that
part of me, or the not knowing partor the why did you gave me away part.
(04:52):
So I think if I wouldn't have thatexperience, I would think totally
different about adoption, but.
Based on what I just said I thinkSweden deserves all the critique.
I think there's a lot of stupidity,a lot of mistakes that are not
mistakes, but that are planned.
(05:13):
And there's a lot of bleepthat has been ongoing.
So I'm very happy that Swedenfinally gets critique for what is
not okay that has been going on.
But me personally, I think I have a veryprivileged situation or relationship
to my adoption with good connectionwith my adoptive parents, with good
(05:36):
opportunities and not so many mentalhealth challenges as many others.
That's, that of course makesit easier to just look at the
critique and feel that I'm upset.
It's upsetting what has been goingon, but I'm also feeling more of a
calm feeling inside that finally,the truth is here and many people can
(06:00):
get some ratification now instead.
Definitely.
I'm finding it very fascinating watchingthe implications for international
adoption and what countries aredeciding to do on a case by case basis.
And I think we're living ininteresting times, Anna where
the truth is being revealed.
(06:22):
So that's good.
Anyway, we didn't come to talkabout that today specifically.
We came to talk about something evenmore difficult and in our first meeting
I was sharing with you that over theyears of doing this show, I have had
a heartbreaking number of adopteesreach out to me to either share their
(06:45):
personal experiences with having receivedsexual abuse at either the hands of an
adoptive parent or an adopted sibling,or extended family member, or looking
for help with these things, and Ioften didn't know where to send them.
(07:05):
And it's like a taboo topic andit's such a difficult thing to
talk about because I think it's waymore prevalent than people think.
And of course there's reasons forthat and we can talk about that.
One of them being, I think, like I'lljust say, when you're adopted into a
(07:30):
family, then the taboo of incestuousbehavior can be quote unquote removed
for the adoptive family members.
And so I just think we're just at ahigher risk for being taken advantage of.
(07:52):
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah.
So first of all, I think exactly likeyou're saying that this is such a, this
is a difficult topic to approach, but justto remind you how important your work is
being people, being able to even reachout to you about it and you catalyzing
it like this, making an episode about itso that we can, talk about it for all of
(08:16):
these individuals that have emailed you,because then this episode is for them.
Of course.
And for everybody elsethat is affected by it.
And that's really important to just,remind us that even if a lot of people
are suffering and have been suffering,this is why what we're doing counts.
And it is importantbecause they are not alone.
(08:39):
They are actually not at all alone.
No.
And from a Swedish perspective,which is a pretty good example, we
have a very colorblind ideology inSweden, which means that we don't
see color because it's racist.
Which is basically how I'm raised.
(08:59):
But we are in the same time over focusingin color, which means that a lot of
adoptive parents and a lot of adultshave been, it's been possible for them to
express their desire of having childrenwith almond eyes or chocolate skin or
(09:23):
these type of things and, getting awaywith expressing themself in this way.
And I'm also not saying thatthese individuals or these
parents have necessarily havehad an an evil plan with that.
But as a society, this have, openedthe doors for it being accepted for
(09:45):
our bodies to be desired in this way.
And, having a body that's always visible.
As a child when adults or siblingsbut like, when adults are a part of
that desire, a part in looking atour bodies as others a part in, it
(10:09):
being okay for them to be curious.
That's of course moving the boundariesor, the normal or like the wished way.
We want adults to interact with childrenwhen it comes to intimacy and sexuality.
So there's a lot of pieces in the puzzlearound adoptees and adoptee bodies.
(10:32):
And another part that I think mattersis that we came to this family as a
transaction, or the transaction wasa big part of it, which also gives a
different flavor on what we mean whenwe talk about quality in a relationship.
(10:53):
So there's a lot of subtle thingsand there's a lot of things that,
that, makes this complicated.
And also the idea of that we should begrateful because if I am raised with the
idea that I should be grateful of what Ihave, what I got in whatever that means.
That means that I'm will probably notsay no and I need to say no 'cause
(11:15):
I learned that I should be grateful.
And if we then have a child thatdoesn't learn to say no, doesn't
learn that you are supposed to sayno, you have the right to say no.
You have the right to yourbody and to have privacy.
Rather the opposite, that wehave children that are, othered,
(11:35):
racialized sexualized by adults andnobody's protecting them from it.
Then the distance or, the time spanfor being sexually abused or having
people that are supposed to be safe.
To, walk over those boundaries or intothat private space is much, much shorter.
(11:59):
And I think that's a big problem.
All of these things that I said,I think all of them separately
is a really big problem.
And then, there's probably more thingsin this that matters, but for me, those
are the things that are the most visible.
It's a perfect storm, right?
All the things together.
(12:19):
Yeah.
In your experience, do youthink that adoptees are
more more affected by thisthan the general population.
I don't like, we already always critiquethat there's not enough studies on
adoptees, and so I'm assuming thatthere's not really too many studies,
(12:43):
especially on this particular topiceither, when frankly, we can't even get
accurate numbers of how many adoptedpeople there are, just as like a one.
But if we look how closely relatedadoption is to human trafficking,
unfortunately, then it's also veryeasy to think that sometimes what is
(13:06):
actually trafficking gets the titleor name adoption because people can
get away with that somewhere somehow.
And that's one part that makesit really tricky, I think to
actually see what is what.
Also, because of all of the differentlegalizations and laws in different
countries and corruption and all ofthese things that has been possible
(13:30):
because of corruption, because of theadults working in these organizations.
But if you just look at any personwho is traumatized, they will always
have a different, understandingof the rights to have boundaries.
(13:50):
They will because they have been,walked over or it could be bullied,
it could be whatever type of trauma asadoption is a trauma for that child.
Then, if you're acting out, then youare in more danger of meeting people
that are, going to answer to thosebehavior in maybe a negative way.
(14:13):
Also in the same way, if you are,very different, you are very visible.
And if you're very visible,then people see you.
So there's a lot of things that Ithink makes adoptees in more danger for
things, but also because we have a lotof already mental health challenges,
issues, and all of the other, followingproblems and challenges for us in general.
(14:39):
So I would say yes, based on that.
How would we not get more problems or getmore in, dangerous situations as well.
So this is one of those things that peoplemostly keep private, there's a great sense
of shame, meaning, it was my fault or Ideserved it, or those kinds of things.
(15:02):
So you just keep it secret or hidden.
When someone has put that away,what are some of the things that
can happen in their lives that theymight not necessarily attribute to
this hidden childhood sexual abuse,but can come out in other ways?
(15:24):
Maladaptive behaviors, let's say.
So first of all, just to,to name what we're talking
about when we're saying shame.
One thing that is really common isthat adoptees, we swallow shame better
than others because we are alreadycarrying a lot of shame around our
identities, as in not being able tostay in my own family, or the idea that
(15:52):
it has to be something wrong with me.
Because my mom didn't keep me orwhatever thoughts that is, or whatever
words there is to describe it.
But many have and feel a strongsense of shame over their existence,
over their, their position inthe world over their destinies.
(16:12):
So adding more shame to that mightnot be the biggest deal for some.
But it just melts in with everything else.
And then it might not affect them as muchcompared to others, but this is a very, it
can be so different from every individual.
(16:32):
Also depending on which ageyou're in and everything else.
But for many people and manyadoptees that has experienced
sexual abuse or trauma are usuallypretty disconnected to their bodies.
Which means that, sex might work,it might be pretty much as it should
(16:54):
from their perspective or their ideaof how a sex should work or be, but
it might also be that they're notfeeling or experiencing pleasure.
They're not feeling that sex orsexual connection is something that
is liberating, is something that isplayful, is something that is funny
(17:16):
and it's something that they have theright to choose a hundred percent if
they wanna be involved with or not.
But it could also be as certain thingsor certain situations like being,
becoming pregnant, for example, orgetting the information that you know,
I'm going to be a father or whateverit might be for that person, might
(17:40):
trigger something connected to thisshame, which might make it impossible
for those people to even want to touchsomebody else or wanting to be touched.
But the strong longing in general thatwe have for finding our way home and
(18:04):
melting together with somebody again or,becoming one or, returning to that place
where we are supposed to be and wherethings were supposed to be different.
And I'm talking in a very subconsciouslevel now, but sex could also
be, a way to represent that.
(18:25):
So between, the one side not wanting tobe intimate, not wanting to have sexual
connections at all, not enjoying it,to having much more than what might be,
in the best interest of that person inthat time because of that longing or
because we are re, redoing somethingor we are trying to figure something
(18:48):
out that's not a hundred percent clear.
That could also put us in pretty trickysituations because usually we don't
feel good at all if we're having sexfor a reason, that we're actually
not really a hundred percent clear.
What that reason is
(19:08):
For someone who maybe hasn't toldanybody about this at all and is
keeping it secret all these years.
It is now oh, maybe thisis impacting my life.
Maybe I should look at the pastand like maybe examine this and
(19:29):
bring it into the light and workon healing from this trauma.
This can be really scaryand feel life threatening.
What are some ways that.
You can open the door or know that you'resafe to do let's say safe to look at
something that can be so terrifying.
(19:52):
I've just, for majority of people,this is how it feels, that it is
terrifying, because even if we feelthat shame or that guilt or that fear
or whatever strong emotion it might be.
When we accept that it's there, itusually, blows up to a hundred percent
(20:15):
strength and it feels like it mightactually kill us, but that's not,
that's not what it, what's goingto happen, or that's not how it is.
But I would say maybe write it down.
Start by writing what you remember.
Or what happened, or write downhow this episode feels to listen
(20:38):
on, because it's not only, nowI'm going to go and heal this.
I need to fix it.
But it's also allowing yourself tolook at this that happened in your
own pace and being with yourself.
Because almost everyone who has beenexposed or violated sexually has
(21:05):
had, have the experience of havingtheir bodies for somebody else.
And if we are going to, move back toyour bodies for you, your sexual or
intimate connections is for you, then weneed to go backwards and restore that.
In every place that it's possible.
(21:26):
So writing it down what you remember, whatyou are thinking about, allowing yourself
to feel everything that you're feelingabout it, angry, sad, disappointed,
disgusted, everything then feel it, writeit down and be with yourself in that.
But also that shame andguilt, usually both.
(21:52):
The tricky part is toremember and to understand and
remember that it's not yours.
The shame is not ours becausewe got exposed for something.
The shame is the other personor persons, the abusers that
overstepped your boundaries inthis like tragic and horrible ways.
(22:16):
And maybe multiple times they aresupposed to feel this shame because
shame is socially here for us toknow how to navigate being with other
people and because then you feel theshame that they are supposed to feel.
It's called secondary shame.
That's also a thing.
You can Google shame and secondaryshame and just get that concept
(22:41):
into your head so that you canstart to make a difference.
And that's two things that I thinkeverybody can do and should do, can do.
But I'm also thinking it'simportant to think forward.
Like what would you like, whatis the best, what is the goal?
What is the best outcome?
Like, where do you want to go?
(23:03):
What does healing mean for you?
And I talk a lot about sexual liberation,then maybe also that, what does that mean?
For you personally or for the personlisten personally and start to look at
that, because with that, as in frontof us or with that as an idea, then
(23:23):
it's actually possible to start tonavigate towards, but without an idea
of what it means to be free or healed.
Which maybe means, I would start to dateagain, or I would start to date, ever.
I never did or I would be more brave.
I would try new things or Iwould take initiative or, it
(23:47):
can be so many different things.
So to start to think about that aswell, to not get totally stuck in
the pain or in the emotional, likeanxiety and mess that it's always a
mess when we're trying to heal us.
And what about for people who havemaintained contact or relationship
(24:12):
with the perpetrators and what doesthat look like into adulthood if
you're starting to examine this?
I don't know if you have tipson this or ideas for support.
'cause this is this is a big one.
Yeah, that's a tricky one.
And the first thing I'm thinking iseverybody who does this has a reason.
(24:35):
Nobody does it becauseit's logic and made sense.
And it was in the book thatwe were supposed to do it.
Everybody has a reason and that reason,whatever that reason is, it's okay.
We cannot do more than our best.
And staying in contact withthat person or those persons.
(24:55):
And if it's the parents or therelatives, which is, common.
Also siblings, like you said, also common.
It's also the, it might be the onlyfamily we got and if you're in that
position that you feel no, thatthis is the only family you got.
You also heard that you'resupposed to be grateful.
(25:17):
And you're trying to balancethat, that experience with, I
might lose exactly everybody, andI'm nobody and nobody wants me.
That that's that's not funny.
That's a bleep situation to be in.
So for anybody who felt that they neededto choose between those two things,
(25:38):
that choice cannot have been easy.
And it's probably haunting them every day.
And a lot of respect for everybody inthat situation, trying to do their best
with something that is really hard forpeople in general to understand or to
even grasp, because people don't get it.
(25:59):
And it's the same with a lotof people having a hard time
leaving a partner that is abusive.
But it's a similar fear because ifthe fear of abandonment or the fear of
being alone is that strong, we cannotleave, then, that's a strong fear.
(26:19):
Otherwise, it would've been easierto make a decision based on logic.
But majority of people are not doing that.
So it's not, it's not so easy.
Also, actually people who have theexperience of being sexually abused
or, physically abused, it's veryeasy to accidentally also become
(26:43):
somebody that is abusing others.
And then the shame and guilt is double.
And then how, how the hell,what, how do you get out of that?
Because you usually get a lot of,moral and punishment from the society
from being an abuser or somebody thatis violating other people's rights.
(27:05):
And it's also important thatmajority of, people abusing others
have this experience as well.
They were abused when theygrew up, and that's it.
Like we need to remember that as well.
And I do this type of work.
I coach people also around sexual traumaof course, because it's a very big thing.
(27:27):
So I'm thinking if somebody like havean immediate question or feels like they
would like to know more or have more,I don't know, ideas on what to do, then
they could just send me an email maybeand better than emailing you in this case.
I would also say.
Yeah, I can't help you.
(27:47):
I can't help you.
No.
If people ever wonder why I closed downall my dms and why my emails are private,
it's things like this, Anna, I'm laughingabout it, but it's so difficult to
hear people's deep traumatic events andknow, there's nothing I can do to help.
(28:11):
I'm so sorry.
It just, it's a weight that peoplecarry and I don't I don't want you
to have to carry that, I want you toget help and support and heal from
these things, and I can't help you.
No, but it's not, you're notsupposed to know how to do it
unless you learn how to do it also.
(28:31):
Yes.
Because it's, it is tricky.
And it was tricky for me, and I thinkevery, every professional experience
that it's tricky in the beginning andit's probably different for us that
have experience of similar thingsor similar experiences, probably
different for us in this position.
(28:52):
But I would say it's, it's important toprotect yourself from getting overwhelmed
because then we are accidentally in anew trauma somehow, then I would say
it's better to do this, that we talkand we are talking about it like this.
And if also if I get a lot of question,we can do a follow up and we could
(29:12):
answer those questions together.
This could also be a way to pin downthings not to traumatize everybody else
but we can probably make that work.
Some point.
Let's talk about this.
How would you like, give us some tips,like what are some things we can do to
navigate, so you talked about writing aletter to ourselves or like recording what
(29:37):
happened or what you hope will happen ifyou examine this and do some healing work.
How do you find supports.
I don't think this is something peopleshould be doing on their own, frankly,
because it is so it's such a deep wound.
Anything sexual, it's just such a deepcore woundedness, that you're touching.
(29:59):
Yeah, it is, and I think we are alittle, in general, we're a little out
of resources to handle, sexual health ingeneral in the world, which is a sad part.
I put together a group together withKatherine Garland, and she wrote a
book about being addicted to sex orlike overusing sex and what she did,
(30:24):
how she did, and why she did it.
So we have a two day course or a twoday two session workshop where we're
going to talk more about this in May.
So for anybody who's interested, you canfind that link at your page somewhere.
Yeah, we'll definitely put it inthe show notes for folks for sure.
(30:47):
And if you're listening in thefuture, we'll put whatever else
Anna's got coming up for you.
But I would say it'sexactly like you're saying.
We do need to heal in communitybecause we need community as well.
But I would suggest that we lookcloser to what does it actually mean?
Because you already survived this.
(31:09):
You survived it big time.
Now we just need to look closer atthe symptoms and at the consequences
of your survival and make surethat you are reaching the best
level in your sexual health in yourlife in, what it means for you.
But you can always, remindyourself that you are a survivor.
(31:32):
You're not, this is not something that,you know, even if you replay this in
your head, but if this is not somethingthat is happening to you now, today,
tomorrow, yesterday, then you survivedit, and that's really important.
Because you, you did already.
And then you can look at what did I do?
(31:54):
Like what strategies haveI been using already?
And are they good or are they not?
But I also am thinking if you have areally good friend, then maybe it's
possible to tell that friend thatsomething bad happened to me when
I was younger and I never thoughtabout it this much as I'm doing now.
(32:18):
But I am, and I'm going to look for away to handle this differently 'cause
I realize that, this is affecting mea lot and I just needed to say it.
With, with, keep the information,keep most of the details for you
because people are really badin handling details in general.
(32:42):
Around adoptees we very often get tohear that we're supposed to be grateful.
What would've happened if you stayed,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, which is a hundred percentnot what you wanna hear when you're
sharing something that is important.
So also, keep yourself safe from that.
When people are starting to look at thisand examine and do some healing work, like
(33:07):
what are some things you can look for toknow that your, your work on it is helping
and is freeing you from this shame?
That's a really good question.
And it's hard work.
It's like everything we do, it's hardwork and our sexual identity is one of
(33:27):
the layers of identities that we haveand that we walk around in every day.
And for, for me to express mysexuality in a way that, I can
incorporate that I deserve pleasure.
That means that my sexual identity andeverything else that I'm carrying in my
(33:49):
body needs to be in line with I deservepleasure or I deserve to have a good life.
And sometimes these two things are not,they're not correlating, but only from,
a sexual perspective, a sexual healthperspective, is that you deserve pleasure.
And that's the first thing I would say.
(34:11):
You deserve it.
You're not supposed to do anythingor have sex because you should,
because that's what we do.
That's what expected, no,it's not like it's not.
We have the right to redefine this andwe should continue to redefine this all
the time and the right to feel pleasure.
(34:34):
It's not only sexually, but that'semotionally, that's mentally that,
physically, that socially we have theright to feel pleasure about what we're
doing, where we are in the contextwe're in, or what, whatever's going on.
And one way to look at that is ofcourse, what does it mean for me to feel
(34:55):
pleasure sexually and how is that insituations where I'm alone with my body?
I want to touch myself.
I want to explore then do Iknow what is pleasurable or not?
Do I feel it?
Do I know?
Do I, do I, could I write thelist of five things I like or is
(35:18):
it just a, a surprise every time?
Because then maybe exploringourselves more what we actually like.
It's like choosing writing a listof five dishes you like to eat.
Because we are supposed toactually know what we like, so
we can navigate towards that.
And with that, of course,take the time to redefine sex.
(35:42):
What does it mean?
What kind of attitudes do we have?
What kind of ideas do I haveabout what is normal or not?
What is okay or not what I should do ornot like, what is going on in my head?
And usually these normsmirror, the society as it is.
(36:04):
But it could also mirror theidea I have about myself and
the ideas I have about sex.
So if I have a lot of negative experiencesor one negative experience, then I
might, think or feel that sex is, it isunsafe for me to have sex, it's unsafe
(36:27):
for me to be in sexual connection.
And it's, that's how it is.
And we can make new meanings.
We have the right to do that.
But then again, we need to know whatkind of new moods we want to have.
And what is important.
Okay.
I'm gonna interrupt the questionbecause I'm curious what you think
(36:48):
about this in trying to think abouteven what we like and you mentioned
like dishes we like and things.
So many of us struggle withboundaries and this is so connected.
Yeah.
Yes.
It is because if we're not, ifwe don't know what a true no is.
(37:11):
And it's very hard for us to know howa yes feels and they come together.
It's really, it's a lot of people thatthinks and feels that it's scary to say,
no, we don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings.
We don't wanna make anybody sad.
We might never learn thatit's okay for us to say no.
(37:31):
And when we say no, somebody's, giving usguilt or shaming us for what we're saying.
If we're never able to express a no,that's not for me, or no, I'm not hungry,
or no I don't want it, or whatever itmight be, then we will have a really hard
(37:52):
time knowing where our yes are as well.
So for anybody who, feels this, thatwe're saying, a lot of people are
bad in saying no and not feelingthat it's okay to have boundaries.
Then I would say, you can remindyourself of who is the person that
(38:12):
is the most difficult to say no to,and who around you is the person that
is the most easiest to say no to?
And remind yourself that's howdifferent it could be only between
people that you met or that youhave around you, but also in which
(38:33):
situation is it okay for you to say no?
Is it okay to say no thank youI'm not going to buy anything when
you're walking out from a store?
Or do you also get a bad feeling, notbuying anything because you think whatever
you might think about the person workingthere, being sad or whatever it might be.
(38:54):
But also in, a sexual setting we're notsupposed to do anything that we don't want
so that the other person will not get sad.
I'm like that's a very, that's avery not beautiful and not amazing
way to look at sexual health.
And I try to say this to kids, toteenagers, when I have those type
(39:18):
of groups and especially to theirparents that do you want your
13-year-old to give somebody a blowjobafter school because otherwise that
person would get, would feel sad.
Is that a valid, is it a valid reason?
Because it's not, and thenthis is not how we're supposed
to think about it in general.
(39:39):
That's a good point.
That's a very good point Anna.
Um, I really appreciate you talking tous about this extremely difficult topic.
I think you've given usa lot to think about.
Is there any last things youwanna leave us with before we tell
people where we can connect withyou and find out more resources?
(40:02):
I think, the more youthink about sexual health.
The more you think about sexology,the more you realize that it's not
only something about me and somebodyelse, or me and other people, but
it's about norms in the societythat tells us what is okay or not.
(40:23):
And it's about ideas from culture orfrom religions or from politicians
that are creating what is actuallypossible to do or not in so
many different ways and levels.
And we can, we canchallenge this all the time.
(40:44):
And one way that I, it's funnyto challenge for yourself is to
just, you can ask yourself, whichwords am I comfortable in using?
If I would describe my body, forexample, then which words am I
actually comfortable in using?
Would I like when you, now maybe I cannotsay these words now because I realize that
you're going to air this and you, mightget sensored but which words is okay?
(41:08):
Which words can you use?
And is there other words that you're notusing and what happens if you use them?
What happens if you useone of those words instead?
Can you practice?
What happens if yousay that word 10 times?
It could be so easy.
So so to say the word period,like I'm on my period.
(41:30):
Okay.
But is that are you feeling stressedor anxious about using that word?
Then maybe that's something to practice.
That's a thing.
That's how we can actually changewhat we're doing and what is going on.
Okay.
I was thinking in my head of all thewords and I was like, please don't make
(41:52):
me say any of these words and you didn't.
So thanks.
Trying not to say them out loud becauseusually I just say them out loud.
Yes.
And now I was like.
Maybe you need to cut them off.
No, that's a lot of work.
That's tricky.
And then I thought, okay, I reallyneed to work now not to say that.
We'll just have a string ofbeeps in here and then people
(42:13):
will just imagine what you said.
No.
Okay.
Where can we connect with you online andfind out about working with you or other
courses or things that you're offering?
I do a lot of things.
A lot of things.
So I have an individual coachingprogram where there is prerecorded like
(42:35):
sessions or like homework sessions,exercises, and you still get, I think
it's nine, I don't remember right now.
I think it's nine individualsessions and the handouts to every
team that we're working with.
So that's one way that is maybethe easiest one to work with me.
(42:56):
Otherwise, I have groups togetherwith other professionals and
other colab partners becauseit's funny to do things together.
This group in May that I was talking aboutis the closest one or one closest in time.
Easiest is to find meat, I think Substack,
(43:17):
theadoptedsexologist.Substack.com.
And on Instagram, I'malso theadoptedsexologist.
Which is also my webpage,theadoptedsexologist.com.
I'm trying not to be so complicated.
Let's see.
I, it's too complicated anyway, but Ithink Substack is the best place because
(43:37):
there I also have some recordingstrying to do some podcasting on my own.
Upload some freebies and stuff.
That's fun.
Perfect.
We will link to all those things.
And your newly published article,Who I Am or Who You Make Me To
Be, Adult Adoptees Imprisoned byExpectations and Intimate Meetings.
(43:57):
So folks can read a littlemore of your research there.
That's correct.
I don't celebrate that enough actually.
Thank you for reminding us.
Oh, absolutely.
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to share thisepisode with listeners and for folks
to pass it on to, people who've beenimpacted by childhood sexual abuse.
(44:18):
I hope it's super helpful for them.
Thank you, Anna.
Thank you.
It was very nice to be here and very nicethat you take on such an important topic.
I hope that was helpful for you tothink through some of the impacts
(44:38):
that this may have had on you.
And I think, I don't think we've reallytalked about this in the episode, but I
really have this belief that our brainslet us know when we're ready to open
the next thing to work on, if we reallyexamined our whole lives and all the
(45:03):
traumatic things that have impacted usand we like, opened our brains up like a
book and just saw everything all at once.
No, nobody can handle that.
No human can handle.
And looking back at all these likecrazy things that have happened to them.
But I think our brains do things, acouple things at a time so we can be safe.
(45:26):
So only examine this if this feels likea safe time for you and you'll know.
I think you'll know.
I love that Anna is doing a workshop.
There are some resources linked in theshow notes for you and I, it's really
neat that she's a sexologist and she'slike a total expert in this area.
(45:48):
Lots of trauma-informed therapistslike that you may already be working
with will also be skilled and able tohelp you through some of these things.
If you're able to ask your therapistand open up that convo if they're not
able to, I'm sure they can also referyou on to a specialist in that area.
(46:09):
So get the professionalsupport that you deserve.
I know sometimes therapycan feel inaccessible and
often it is for many folks.
But there are so many amazingfree resources therapy supports
(46:29):
for adopted people expertsin this field more and more.
Don't just be like, oh, Ijust can't, don't do that.
Take good care of yourself.
We need you to be here.
And the more we work on these things,like we're just able to show up
for ourselves more and our peoplemore, and have a happier, healthier,
(46:56):
joy-filled, meaningful life.
And that's, isn't thatwhat it's all about?
I don't know.
That's my personal opinion.
Anyway, thank you for taking thetime to listen and I really hope you
had some good takeaways from this.
And if you do know someone who's had,who's experienced childhood sexual abuse
(47:22):
of some kind maybe share this episode withthem if you think it might be helpful.
And it can be a resource hopefully.
Thank you so much for listening.
Let's talk again soon.
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