Maria Diemar and Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Haley Radke (00:00):
This podcast is for educational and
entertainment purposes only.
Nothing stated on it either by its hostsor any guests, is to be construed as
psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to AdopteesOn the podcast where adoptees

(00:21):
discuss the adoption experience.
I'm Haley Radke.
We have two incredible adopteeactivists with us today.
Maria Diemar and Lisa Wool-RimSjöblom, both adopted to Sweden,
joined up to elevate adopteecauses in some very impactful ways.
Maria is the subject of Lisa's latestgraphic novel, The Excavated Earth, which

(00:43):
exposes a horrific story of how thousandsof Chilean babies were literally kidnapped
and stolen to be sold for adoptionto Sweden and many other countries.
You won't believe some of theshocking details that Maria
and Lisa share with us today.
Lisa also shares a few thoughts with uson the recent findings of the South Korean

(01:07):
Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
These ladies are amazing.
I can't wait for you tohear this conversation.
We wrap up with some recommendedresources and as always, links to
everything we'll be talking about todayare on the website, adopteeson.com.
Let's listen in.

(01:28):
I'm so pleased to welcome two gueststo Adoptees On first, Lisa Wool-Rim
Sjöblom, welcome back to the show.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom (01:36):
Thank you.
Hi.
So nice to be here again.

Oh, it was so good to see you, Lisa, and for the first time.
So excited.
Maria Diemar.
Welcome Maria.

Maria Diemar (01:46):
Hi.
Thank you.

I'm so excited to talk to you ladies.
We're gonna start a little differently.
I know I always askabout what your story is.
How did you guys connect?
You were both adopted to Swedenfrom different countries, but how
did this friendship bloom for you?

Yeah.
Resources online about other cases,and I found Lisa's book Palimpsest
and I read it and then I emailedLisa and we started from there.
Yeah,

Palimpsest says, as an aside, such a gorgeous book.
If you haven't read it, Imean you're missing out.
So you emailed Lisa.
And Lisa, did you know aboutthe stolen Chilean children?

Yes.
Yeah.
'cause I, of course, as an activist,I followed the news closely about
everything going on in the adoption world.
And I had heard about stolen children in,within Chile before the new, the big news
broke about the international scandals.
So I was following the news, and thenwhen the news broke in Sweden was early
2018, I actually organized the firstadoptee led demonstration in solidarity

(03:01):
with the Chilean adoptee to make thegovernment act on the news, basically.
Yeah.
So I was very upset in my corner.
But yeah, I didn't know Maria Diemarat the time, but then you, Maria
formed an organization for Chileanadoptees, and then we connected.
So I was really happy to beasked to be involved and see

(03:22):
what I could do to help you.

Maria, if you're comfortable, would you mind
sharing a little bit of your story?
Because you didn't alwaysknow that you were stolen from
the, your country of origin.

No, exactly.
So I was born in 1975 in southern partof Chile, and I wa I always knew that I
was 10 weeks when I came to Sweden andback then it was a, what do you call it?
It was a dictatorship in Chile.
And the future adoptive parents were askednot to travel to Chile to get the kids.

(03:58):
They were told to stay in, inSweden and that we, the kids were
going to arrive to Sweden and theycould pick us up at the airport.
And it sounds so terriblewhen I say it, but yeah.
That's like 1975.
Yeah.
So I came to my adopted parents inStockholm, in Sweden where I grew up and

(04:20):
with the story that my mom was poor andthat she couldn't take care of a child.
And I think I was, they were always veryopen about the adoption and it was very
obvious that I was adopted like Lisaand other people from other countries.
It's very obvious that we are notlike Swedish people back then.

(04:45):
So they always talked about likemy background, what they knew.
And when I was 10, I think it wasn'tuntil I was 10 I realized, or I
understood like the documents that saidthat I had an older brother in Chile.
So that's why when I started to thinkabout I have to go back because my

(05:05):
mom is there and my older brotheris there, so I have to go there.
So my life, I started focus on, Ihave to learn Spanish, I have to
study about Chile, what is Chile?
And it was like a very big thing for meto understand that as a 10 or 11-year-old.
And I always knew like I wanted tolook for them, but I didn't know how.

(05:30):
So it wasn't until I finished high schoolwhen I was 19, I started my search.
And back then you had, as an adoptiveperson you had to contact the adoption
agency that brought you to Sweden,and I can mention that in Sweden there
was like one big, like it's the secondlargest adoption agency in the world.

(05:54):
They handle 30,000 cases of childrenfrom abroad, and we had to contact them
and pay them money to get informationthat they had received about us.
So still today they have mybirth certificate, for example.
I don't have it, I have a copy, but wehave to ask them for that information.

(06:17):
So I did and I paid a little money andI had to wait and after one year they
told me that they couldn't help me.
They told me that I had to go toChile on, on, on my own and to
search for my story over there.
So of course I couldn't go directlybecause it's a long trip, a long

(06:39):
journey, and it's cost a lot of money.
So I studied and I workedextra, different jobs.
And I traveled to Chile and I stayedthere for almost three months because
I wanted to learn the languagebetter and to get to know my country.
And I decided also, okay, Iwill go to Southern Chile and
look for my mom and brother.

(07:01):
And, but the thing was, in Chile I hadall the information, like I had to go
to the courthouse where the like whereit was decided that I was going to
have Swedish foster parents because Irealized that I wasn't adopted in Chile.
I was a foster child that left Chileto Sweden, and I was adopted in

(07:23):
Sweden when I was six months old.
And I went to the court to getinformation about my background.
I thought that they were going to receiveme with open arms and give me the address
to my mom, but they hold my information.
Like the secretary that I wasmeeting up with, she hold my file
and said that she couldn't showit to me because I was adopted.

(07:47):
And then from there I started togo to the orphanage where they told
me, the adoption agency told methat I had been at this orphanage.
I went there, they told me Iwas born at a certain hospital.
So I went there and everywhereI went, like the door closed.
I was welcome.
They talked to me, but they saidthere is no, like no registers, there

(08:10):
is no information, there is nothing.
So when I returned to Sweden afterthree months in Chile, I felt
like I, I don't exist in Chile.
It was so strange, but I was even moredetermined that I have to find my story.
I have to find out, where ismy mom and where is my brother

(08:32):
and, but it took me seven years.
And after seven years, I, bycoincident got in contact with
back then she was studying herlast year to become journalist, a
woman called Ana Maria Olivares.
And I mentioned her namebecause she became a friend.
But back then in 2003, shehelped me to locate my mom.

(08:56):
And it took her like one week, not evenone week, five days, to find my mom and
then her uncle that lives in the samearea went to visit my mom and to tell
about your daughter is looking for you.
So that was in 2003 and I receivedlike a very long email from the man

(09:17):
that went to visit to went to mymom's house and talked to her and
he said like that he had met my mom.
He also sent me a picture,but that she told him that she
never gave me up for adoption.
That I was taken from her.
And back then it was, I had never heardabout stolen children or children that

(09:42):
had been like forceful, forcefullytaken from their mothers in Chile.
So I didn't know what to thinkand I was thinking about it and I
contacted the adoption agency andI asked them like, why is my mom
telling me that I was taken from her?
And they told me, but, oh,don't think about that.

(10:02):
That is common.
Like the mothers, they do that, theydon't want to feel guilty for having,
leaving their babies up for adoption.
So no, it's nothing.
And I had this feeling I didn'tknow, I didn't know that woman.
I didn't know my mom, but still, thisis what she told me through this man.

(10:23):
And, but I thought, withtime I will, learn the truth.
But it took me 14 years before Icould, with help of a third person that
finally could tell me about like thecontext, like what happened in Chile.
This is, this was not, just one childor two children that were abducted it.

(10:46):
It's thousands.
So by, so in 2017 I could finallyunderstand it, but from two th 2003 up to
2017, I had been to Chile several times.
I had met siblings, I had spent timein, in Chile, but still, I couldn't
process this information becausethat wasn't what I have been, told.

So you have this, the idea in your mind, right?
That you're like she'ssaying you were taken, but

yeah.

Not really.
That's just what she's saying to.
I don't know psychologically dealwith losing you or something.

Yeah, but the thing is like growing up in Sweden, you
believe so much in the system.
You believe so much in likepaperwork, like papers.
They are the truth.
And in the paper it's said thatshe gave me up for adoption.

But it's also the, that's the story we are
told, not just from our parentsbut from everywhere in Sweden.
The narrative that we have beenrescued and that our mothers gave
us up is so prominent and so strongand at Adoptionscentrum that Maria
mentions that adoption agency, theyhave so much power and they also,

(11:59):
they own the story of adoption.
So you know, you are up against somuch and when you, because the thing
that Maria tells about understandingwhat happened to her or being told
what happened to her, it sounds verysimilar to what I went through when I
discovered the truth about my adoption.
And I started asking around and peoplejust said that I was crazy because I

(12:21):
was like maybe you are an exceptionand you write to the authorities and
to the agencies and they tell you no,this is it's just what the mothers
are saying because they feel guilty.
And they even said that onnational television and they
keep saying it today, even aftereverything that's been discovered.
So of course you think you're one caseor that you're crazy, but that's the

(12:44):
thing now, when all these investigationsare opening up and like with the Truth
and Reconciliation Commission in Koreaand lots of other commissions, and
like for me, I discovered that I wasa paper orphan and I had to Google
it and I ended up with no answers.
No one knew about this.
And now when you look atthe term paper orphan.

(13:05):
Everybody knows about it.
It's become an established term.

And just so people know what that means.

Yeah.
Sorry.
It's in my case, it's, I have knownliving parents, but I also have
an official documents assessedthat I have an unknown background.
And I was, I'm an orphan inthe true sense of the world.
I have no parents, no living parents.
I'm an orphan, but that's just acomplete lie of falsification, which

(13:32):
was needed to make me adoptable.

Sure.
So So it's like full societal gaslightingof all adopted people and both of you

Yeah.

Have completely falsified paperwork to do with your adoptions.

Yeah.

And you're not the exception.

That we grew up believing and our parents grew up
believing it and the whole society.
Yeah, supported that idea.

And I think also because as an adopted person, you understand
like when you finally find your familyand you start a relationship, it's
a lot of things going on and like togetting to know like siblings and it's
a lot to deal with and it's easierto deal with the happy feelings.

(14:19):
Oh, I'm getting to know people like I'mrelated to, by blood and all of that.
It was easier to focus on that thanto focus on like the hard stuff.
So like Lisa said, also with the papers,I never said that, but in my case.
When I started to look throughand when the journalist in Chile

(14:41):
explained this to me that, butlook at your birth certificate.
You have a Swedish name.
So in Chile I'm registeredas Ingegerd Maria Olsson
Karlsson, and the same as Lisa.
I don't have, I don't have parents.
I was, only, I just existed one day orthe 18th of August, I suddenly existed

(15:02):
in Chile with a Swedish name and in Chilenow I know, but I didn't know back then in
2003, but I have always existed in Chile.
Like I never left the country.
So I have a, like my, like hereyou have the social security number
or id, so I have a Chilean id.
I can vote, I'm a citizen.

(15:24):
I can just go to the consulate where Ilive and ask them to renew my passport
or my, ID like my identification card.
So it's like I never left.
Now I can see that, but who, no, noone could explain that to me back then.
So we have more facts today and it'seasier, I, when I can, there's this

(15:47):
page in Chile where you can search,if you look at your birth certificate
and the name you have on that paper,if you search for that on this page,
you will have the information of anaddress and you will have your number.
And it's insane if, but we didn't knowthat until, today or seven years ago.

(16:09):
So it's a lot of, it's more accessible.
Like you have more information accessibletoday through, internet and and also
by people actually knowing about this.
But back then, more than 20years ago, it was very different.
Yeah.

Okay.
I hope this isn't too in the weeds,but are you saying there was like
two, I'm just gonna use Maria's,but two Maria documented, like
there was a Maria that stayed andis a citizen, and then there's the
falsified Swedish named Maria who left.

No.

Is that what they did?
Or There was, it was always just, youappeared as Swedish Maria, and that's,
and there was no record of you leaving.

Exactly.
So the second so for me, for onegroup of people, we were registered
with Swedish names, and I can alsomention that I, in the court in Temuco
where I was given Swedish fosterparents in that court, they had.
I don't know how many applicationfrom Swedish parents that

(17:21):
were looking for children.
So what they did that they took, a couplefrom, papers from the court and they found
children and they registered the childrenwith the names that the Swedish parents
wished their future child to be called.
So I was registered with mySwedish name before the foster

(17:44):
parents in Sweden knew I existed.
So I have read like my mom, mySwedish mom, her notes about me,
and she learned about my existenceone week after I was registered
with her and her husband's names.
So that happens to some, and somesome have two or three identities in

(18:05):
Chile because I was stolen from mymom at birth, so she never saw me,
she never hold me at the hospital.
I was carried away by a social assistant.
But normally, like a mom in Chile,give birth to the child and she gets
this note from the doctor or from themidwife that on this day, this mom,

(18:29):
this woman gave birth to this child.
And after a few weeks, themother can walk with the child
to the, what do you call it?
To the registers to register the childand then you make this birth certificate.
But in my case, and for many othersthat were stolen, it was made this

(18:51):
document would help or witnesses.
So two men, they, signed a paperthat I was this baby with a Swedish
name and they signed that paper,and then I suddenly existed in
Chile, like someone without parents.
But now when I know about all this, I cansee in the documents from the court that,

(19:14):
that my mom is mentioned, her name isthere, but in so she could decide to give
me away and so I could be sent to Sweden.
So there, they mentioned her name, but inmy birth certificate she doesn't exist.
So it's very convenient that she canexist in some documents and in others not.

(19:36):
So in Chile they only decided that I,the court in Chile only decided that
I can leave the country and that I cantravel to foster parents in Sweden.
So I was never adopted in Chile.
It happened in Sweden and they didn'tsend the papers back or something
so we never left the country.

(19:58):
So it's it, I think they talk about20,000 children and even more, but that
they know of have left the country, butthey don't know where all children are.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: It's so similar to Korea. (20:10):
undefined

That is like any normal person listening to that.
It's gotta be like, that is bananas.

Yeah.

It that, my gosh, you guys could see my face.
I'm just getting madderand madder now okay.

But that's the thing, when you start actually listing it
like that, 'cause you're so used to, totalking about certain aspects of adoption,
but when you actually start listing whatreally happened, it's absolutely insane.
And it's so obviously criminal.

Yes.

Because the Swedish adoption agency is still
trying to pretend that it was all onChile, that they can admit that maybe
they were, the system wasn't great,but they had nothing to do with it.
But the fact that Maria had a Swedishname in a birth certificate when
she left before she even had beenassigned parents and adopted by them.

(21:04):
It's a crazy gamble to begin with, butit's also, it's proof that Swedish people
were there on location making thesedecisions 'cause she couldn't have gotten
the Swedish name by a Chilean person.
It's a very specific Swedish name too.
I could say.
It's quite traditional, so it's not justsomething you would pick up from a book,
make up like, oh, this sounds Swedish.

(21:25):
It's a proper Swedish name.
So it's proof that they were there,they were acting knowingly and they
still tried to pretend oh no, this wasall Chilean the Chilean responsibility.

Colluding.
Big time.
Lisa, can we just talk a little bitabout like most of our listeners
probably are quite familiar with Koreanadoptees because there's so many of you.

Yeah.

So can you just, but can you just do a little history on Korean
adoption, like the reasons, and likesome of this nonsense of course was
happening there too, just because Iwant Maria to contrast that with what
was happening in Chile at the time.
Like I'm talking about macro level reasonswhy Korean was exporting other babies.

I do a super brief summary 'cause we can talk for a
long time, but Korea had been througha devastating war between 50 and 53.
So it left a lot of actual, realorphans and there were a lot of
foreign aid workers and a lotof presence of foreign soldiers,
mainly US soldiers who were there.

(22:28):
And they could see the plightof the children basically.
And that's when people whowere worried about these kids,
what was gonna happen to them.
And some had been were theresult of relationships between
US soldiers and Korean women.
So I think it was we can say thatit started with the US that there,

(22:50):
there was a evangelical couple therecalled Harry and Bertha Holt, who
started bringing real orphans over tothe US and basically marketing them.
Look, we're taking care of these poorchildren from Korea who are left orphaned.
And you could also do the same thing.
So it is, it's basically a campaignfor parents to, or people who want to

(23:10):
adopt a child to get their own Korean.
And then it became so popularthat's how the industry started.
But the real orphansrun out quite quickly.
It's just like in Chile that they startedthe demand was so high, so they had to
find another way to produce orphans.

(23:31):
And that's when coercion startedand actual theft and kidnapping
and the falsified paperwork.
But on the Korean side, thiswas also an opportunity for
them to rebuild the country.
I don't know if you've heard thisdescription of Korea, but it's called
the economical wonder because theyrebuilt the country so quickly and became

(23:54):
one of the richest countries in theworld quite quickly, quite drastically.
So you can compare to other countriesthat were on the same level of
poverty after the Korean War, andthen how quickly they rose from
that compared to other countries.
So we're in the similar situation,and my body is part of that, that
they built their wealth on my body andpossibly up to 250,000 other people.

(24:20):
But the numbers vary.
Just like in Chile, a lot of theadoptions were registered and they
were dodgy and under the table.
So the official figure is lower, it'slower than 200,000, but usually 200,000
people as a number that it's shared.
So through this, they got a lot ofAmerican dollars coming into the

(24:42):
country, but they also saved lotsand lots of money on social welfare.
So they didn't need to build up asocial welfare system for themselves
'cause they could just send us off.
And just like in Chile, it was also, andafter all the insanity that was going on,
then there was a military dictatorshipfor many years that ended in 87.
So it was a military rulequite a long time in Korea.

(25:06):
The human rights abuse wereprominent just like in Chile.
And this is one thing that Maria and Ikeep coming back to when we talk about all
this is that how can the adoption agenciesconvince themselves that adoptions in,
in these insanely corrupt countriesthat are ruled by the military and are
constantly committing crimes againsthumanity against their own population

(25:29):
and particularly against poor people,how can they think that adoption can
exist in like this ethical little bubble?
In these countries and convince them.
I don't think that they actuallytruly believe that, but they
managed to convince other people.
That's how it works.
That we know that these children,that everything, that's the whole

(25:50):
system is perfectly ethical.
And yeah, in line with laws andregulations, everything else is messed up.
Like I usually take this example likewith Chile, that Sweden were boycotting
Chilean goods and also lots of refugeesfrom Chile came into Sweden that we
knew that they had been tortured.
But babies perfectly fine.

(26:12):
Yeah, it's crazy.

You're saving the babies.
You're saving all those poor babies.

Yeah, but that,

oh goodness,

that poor women were able to give consent.
And I think that it's in your papers,Maria, it actually says that your
mother wanted you to go to Sweden.

Yeah.

It's yeah.

They cooked up a great story.
The other thing, like there weregovernment workers in Korea,
patrolling, like looking for babieslike they had jobs to do just that.
Oh my gosh.

Yeah.
That's one of the things that'sbeen revealed now, of course many
years ago, but now it's becomewidespread knowledge is of course,
that every, everyone was in on it.
Like midwives, doctors, orphanages,adoption agencies, civil servants,
the police and government officials.
There was child finders.

(27:06):
Yeah.
Like you just said.
Yeah.
Finding children.

And everybody was getting tips along the way, like everybody
was getting paid for something.
So I know you two connected and you couldcommiserate on all of these similarities.
Maria, can you tell us about thestate of Chile in this time, where
all these children were takenand what sort of led to that?

No, but this happened before the dictatorship.
This happened earlierand it happened after.
So in Chile you had the dictatorshipbetween 1973 and 1990, I think they had
the first Democratic elected president.
But so children were stolenafter also up to 2000 something.

(27:54):
But like the peak was duringthe year of the dictatorship.
And like you said, one thing thatis very in Chile, they actually did
an investigation in the Parliament.
So they decided to have a group ofpoliticians to investigate what had
happened to all the children and why.

(28:15):
And they concluded like it was becausethere was this big demand from abroad,
money coming in into Chile and whenit's about Sweden, we know because it's
documented in Sweden that the adoptionagency, they actually paid Chilean

(28:36):
social workers, like monthly salary.
Salary to, I don't know.
To do what?
So they were paid from Sweden, and if youare a social assistant in Chile, why are
you supposed to get money from Sweden?
But they are very open about itbecause, I don't know, but they paid at
least three, three social assistants.

(28:58):
And in Sweden, we areofficially through this agency.
We are 2,100 people around that number.
And then you have maybe200, 300 other people.
They worked hard to get so many childrento a small country as Sweden and also

(29:20):
because the police in Chile, theyhave been investigating adoption like
cases where children like me, wherewe have left the country and they have
investigated cases, many cases, and theyuse my case like a kind of a pilot study

(29:40):
quite early on back in, they started in2018 the crime investigation regarding
children that have left Chile started inFebruary, 2018 and it's still going on.
And they concluded I think two,two years ago that I was kidnapped,

(30:01):
I was, I am a victim of a crime.
And who did it, like who is responsible?
They also concluded that, but the judgethat they said was mostly like responsible
for me ending up in Sweden she diedin 2022, so there is no one to punish.

(30:23):
So it's a little bit frustrating.
But they had two, two situationswhere they talked to her like this
judge, and she was, and I haveall the documentation in my file.
It's 440 pages, the police investigation.
And there she say that, oh, Sweden, theyhad monopoly on children until 1982.

(30:50):
So the children from her court insouthern Chile, all the children came
only to Sweden, but she decided toopen up to other countries in 1982.
But that is, it is so insane when youread about it today and still people

(31:10):
say that, no, maybe this didn't happen.
And we have all of those, proof.
But still, like Lisa said earlier, thatin Sweden, when they talk about what
happened in Chile and that Sweden wasvery involved, and they say, oh, but
we don't know maybe this didn't happen.
So we are like caughtbetween two countries.

(31:32):
But still it's, I don't know.
It needs to, something needsto happen, but it's hard
because it's two legal system.
But still, if you know that thishappened to so many, and that's one,
one thing that we have been talkingabout, Lisa, that the amount of cases,

(31:52):
the amount of mothers that are stilllooking for their, dead because many
children were declared dead so theycould leave the country and, but they
are looking for the children still today.
And not only the judge thatwas responsible for, stolen
children in southern Chile, themothers, they're also dying.

(32:14):
And we have, we, yeah, we, so it's soimportant that not only to speed up the
investigation to make people aware of it,but it is so hard to fight the system.
It's so hard and yeah, we can talkabout it and we want to talk about it,
but still, how can we speed this up?

So you said there is around 20,000 worldwide, right?
Adopted out.
Ish, I'm not quite sure of the number.

Yeah.
So that so the thing is, and this happenedso long ago, the police investigation
in Chile, that is the number they use.
So until they update it,it's the number I would use.

Okay.

But it could be more.

And so around 10% of those went to Sweden or a little higher.
And so I know they went toother countries as well.
Do you know of any other countries thathad also their names on birth certificates
or like lists of waiting parents?

So Switzerland, I know because they are mentioned in
my documentation from the judge,but they, Italy, you have Italy,
France, Germany, Holland, Norway,Denmark, Australia, US, Mexico.
You have so many.
I think they're talking about morethan 20 countries where we ended up.

(33:37):
But some people, so what happenedwith children that were stolen and
adopted within Chile is that theywere like the adoptive parents.
They came to the hospital and theyregistered a stolen child as their own.
And that is what happened with, alsowith children that left the country.

(34:00):
So it's hard, they can't say a number.
And also like we know, the thing iswith Sweden, because we love documents,
so in Sweden we, we at least havesome false documents, but we can
see patterns in the documentation,like the same hospitals or the same,
doctors or the same social assistants.

(34:21):
So we, so it has been easy to followwhat happened to us and also because
adoption agency, they have all, over2000 people's records in, at their,
archives in Sweden, in Stockholm.
But I know it's harder with othercountries like the US they don't
know how many, because it wasprivate adoption, churches and not

(34:46):
everyone even knows about that.
They were adopted.
Because yeah.
So it's may maybe not asobvious as when you ended up in
Sweden, so it is it's a mess.
It's a mess.

One last comment on that and I wanna talk about how you guys,
how, I mean your story is so compelling.
Obviously Lisa wrote about it, so wewere gonna get to that right away.
Just the last comment on, so thesewere for majority, I'm assuming
children of impoverished mothers.

(35:21):
I think your mom can readand write, is that correct?
I'm listening to thatin another interview.
So they were intentionally stealingfrom areas of poverty to, because
those people couldn't fight back.
They're trying to eradicate povertyin some way by taking away children.
Can you say more about that?

No, but it's what they have concluded.
We have an historian for example,in Southern Chile, Karen Alfaro.
She's been investigating this foryears and she, what she has seen is
like the target population poor singlemothers of an indigenous background.
And yeah, I think in my mom is exactly,what she has concluded and that is, it

(36:08):
is, I don't know, it's just so terrible.
And you have, for us growing up inSweden yeah, because of history.
People don't like to talk aboutrace, like ethnicity or race.
But many of us that ended up in Sweden,we ha have the same background as me,
like partly or full like indigenousbackground and in Chile, the children

(36:35):
that were adopted, they hadn't thesame background, so they were whiter
that the children that stayed in Chile.
So and so it is, that is somethingthat I am laughing, but it's terrible.
But that is what happened.
So they could export indigenous children.
It was easier to get people abroadto accept that even though my parents

(37:00):
and all the parents that adoptedchildren through adoption, the adoption
agency, Adoptionscentrum, they could,they filled out this chart like how
brown could their future baby be?
What age?
So they filled out that, and I ama little darker than the wish my
adoptive parents had, but yeah.
And, but that is something because.

(37:22):
Oh, I can mention, I really would liketo mention this, that like for the
Swedish cases, because we were veryearly on compared to other countries
so the first child that were likeexported from Chile, it was in 71, so
it was very like early before the coup.
But then they have statistics that saidthat in 1974, 16 children, 16 children

(37:47):
left Chile to be adopted in Sweden.
The year I was born in 1975,we were 97 children that left
Chile to be adopted in Sweden.
The year after in 1976 itwas almost 200 children.
So it's, so they had this kind ofworked out, this process and speeding

(38:13):
and more children and it's insane.
But what I wanted to say in my casewas there was so little information.
I, okay, we had my mom's name andthat she was poor and couldn't
read or write, and she wanted meto be adopted in Sweden somehow.
But it never, there were no informationabout my background that I'm indigenous.

(38:36):
So that is something I understood eightyears ago, because we have been taught
in Sweden, don't talk about race, don'tlike, even though you have another
color, it's oh, we are all the same, butstill we have so much racism in Sweden.
So that is something I'm still processingthat what does it mean to be indigenous?

(38:59):
And it feels like this puzzle ofwho I am is like ongoing forever
and what is the next news for me?
It's feels like it's always something.
So yeah.
So yeah, that was, thatis my comment about that.

Oh my goodness.
Okay.
So Lisa, you we're gonna go back tothe beginning of our conversation.
You and Maria Connect.
You're an activist, you've gotpublished Palimpsest with is, which
is your amazing story, and you'rethis brilliant artist and you hear
Maria's story and you're like.

Yeah, after we met the, that meeting we were
bringing up the idea about how canwe preserve witness accounts and
stories to make people listen to us.
'cause we are sharing themamong each other, but we need
to make other people listen.
So we were talking back and forth aboutwhat we could do and we were talking about

(39:55):
like exhibitions and collecting storiesand publishing an anthology or something.
But I was a bit cynical about that.
I remember 'cause I said that the onlypeople who are gonna read an anthology
with adoptee voices are adoptees andpeople who are already in the know.
And then during our conversations, that'swhen I realized how the incredible work

(40:17):
that Maria had done and was still doing,that she had traveled many times to,
I talk about you in third person noweven though you sitting in front of me.
Yeah.
All the work.
And because you were.
The only one, one of thefew speak Spanish as well.
You had access to information in adifferent way, and I just started admiring
everything you were doing and suggestedthat, would it be okay if I write a

(40:43):
book about you, if I make a comic aboutyou, but by writing about you, I can
also include other people's stories.
Because I thought that, I noticed withPalimpsest that people were actually
listening and not just people whowere already involved in the issue.
So I thought that could be agood way to get this story out.
But then also, I'm a big admirer ofcourse, of activist work and I feel

(41:08):
that a lot of the reporting that hadthat was done through the media was
focused solely on the sensational bits.
And about reunions and they hadtheir own agendas that didn't really
fit what we wanted to communicate.
And you were like, oh, soyou're gonna write about me?
Yeah.
Okay.

(41:28):
Yeah.
And I said, I'm gonna do it.
Great.
It is gonna be great.
And then I also want to add thatwe shouldn't go in too much on this
'cause we have very limited time,but you also have, of course have a
younger brother who was also adoptedand also stolen from another family.
So I thought it was insanethat the stolen people ended

(41:50):
up in the same adoptive family.
And since then we'vehad even crazier things.
But anyway, so I thought it, itcould be quite interesting to put
you next to each other in the book.
So I talked to your brother as well,so he, his story is also a big part
of the book that I made in the end.

So like you said it like about me Yes.
About my brother.
Yes.
But what was, what is incredibleimportant is that you also tell
the story about the mothers.
So you tell you, you tell about familiesthat where the children disappeared
and it's so important because bothfor Korea and Chile, our parents

(42:29):
are first parents are so far away.
So people can't, I don't know,feel what they feel or understand
what has happened, what the crimesthat were, committed against them.
And a big part of that we workedtogether with representatives of Hijos
y Madres del Silencio or Mothersand Childrens of Silence in Chile.

(42:52):
And I also wanted to comment on that.
One of the people that are workingin Chile with this group is the
journalist that helped me foundmy mom more than 20 years ago.
So we have like really reconnectedfrom 2017 and she has been, she
and other people of course alsofrom the organization, they

(43:15):
have been very important to,for us to be able to do this.
Yeah.

Yeah so I mean we started working by, basically by
talking a lot and I started structuringthe story and quite early on I asked
do you think that we can talk to someof the parents in Chile as particularly
your brother's mother 'cause she hadbeen talking a little bit, she was
quite open about what happened toher, unlike your mother, for instance.

(43:44):
So we didn't want to intrude on her.
So we asked her, and then thatled to other, that we could
talk to other mothers as well.
So it was really incredible to be able toinclude their stories with their words,
because I just need to add that therehas been some interviews with mothers,
or they've been included in some mediareporting, but it's very skewed and a

(44:06):
lot of it is focused on how gratefulthey are to the adoptive parents.
And that is not the story at all.
But that's how the Swedish and or otherinternational journalists skewed the
stories, like focusing on the poverty andalmost making it a bit of a, almost like
fetishized poverty like it so often isand this kind of white savior perspective,

(44:30):
that they are so grateful that the childgot to grow up healthily and being cared
for by these beautiful adoptive parents.
So it was really interesting to beable to talk to the mothers 'cause
they are not grateful at all.
They are angry and they aregrieving and they are traumatized
and they want their children back.
They want what was lost back of course.

(44:51):
And they want justice.
And I was lucky enough to geta grant to go to Chile, but
unfortunately Covid happened.
So in the end we had to do it
online.

But still.
So I wanted to add that.
So what is so important in all of thisis that Lisa also speaks Spanish so to
be able to talk to the mothers and theother people we talk to in Spanish, that
is, that has been like such a advantagebecause we, when we've, when you follow
other media or other, there's alwayspeople that have to, what do you say?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: They use an interpreter. (45:26):
undefined

Yeah.
Yeah.
And you can hear that so much is missing.

Yeah.

From, what the mothers or the families are saying.
So I think this was so incredible.
Incredibly great.
What to Yeah.
What we were able todo because of language.
And so I also want to likereally underline that.
So like language and to let themothers tell their stories that is.

Yeah.
And I asked them before the, in,we started the interviews like,
what is it that you want to conveywith the space that you get here?
What is, what do youwant me to communicate?
So I told them of course, what thestructure of the story was and that, yeah,
it's focusing on Maria and her brother.
But what is it that you think isimportant to tell what you want

(46:16):
now when you can choose 'cause I'mnot going to change anything to
fit my fit the book, so to speak.
So they're almost like littleportraits that are put in the
story and then they pop up.
But they, of course, theyare about stolen children.
So we, we chose mothers who had lost theirchildren through criminal activities.

(46:40):
But yeah, that, that was really great.
And the, to move forward a bit, 'cause Icould talk about this forever, but it was
published in Sweden, in Swedish, in 2022.
And then yeah, earlier thisyear in January, I think it
came out finally in Spanish.
And that was what we had workedfor the entire time that it
would be published in Spanish.

(47:01):
So when that happened, we decided totake the book, bring it back to Chile,
to the mothers and where it all started.
And it coincided with a big Congressas well, organized by Hijos y Madres
del Silencio . So we knew, so we gotinvited to talk about the book there.
But then when we mentioned to people thatare we coming to Chile, we're bringing

(47:24):
the book, other people jumped on thebandwagon and we were invited to, or I
was invited to four other events as well.
And four of those you were alsoincluded 'cause we wanted to do a
little book tour, share it between us.
So I talked about the making of thebook and how I worked on it, but we
also thought it was really importantthat you got to tell your story and it

(47:47):
was relevant of course, because that'sthe story that I tell in the book.
So it was a really nicecollaboration, I think.
And it was so beautiful to, to be in Chileand to meet the mothers face to face.
And unfortunately we had a mishapwith the actual book coming on time
to Chile, but we could, we were stillthere in the flesh and saying, I

(48:08):
could say thank you to them in person.

Yeah.
Yeah.
So the first event we did in Chile,the first day we arrived in, southern
Chile, two of the moms were in, like inthe audience, and we didn't know that.
So it was so beautiful.
And yeah, one of the mothers were,it's is my adoptive brother's mom.

(48:33):
She was there, sitting and holding myhand while we were waiting to talk.
And then the other mom, she was therewith her granddaughter and yeah, you
wrote about her in the book, but we foundso her son is a friend of mine, and by
a coincidence, we found her back in 2019and knocked on her door and, talked about

(48:55):
her son and they got connected afterwards.
So Lisa tells about that inthe book, but she was there and
so I helped to interpretate.
Like the first meeting between her andher son online and the granddaughter
was with her then, and it wasso beautiful to meet them again.
But it's also it's also a strugglebecause one thing that Patricia,

(49:18):
my adopted brother's mom, what shesaid is we are so alone in this.
Like we really need support.
We need really need, help with everythingfrom, because what we have noticed for
myself also, but you open a big trauma,you know the, you know when you find,
if you're lucky enough to find yourfamily or to find your child, you open

(49:43):
this big trauma and it's impossibleto explain to someone like what you're
going through and even to understand ityourself, because I have been talking
about my story now, but what I havedone, I haven't processed, like what
happened to me for years and years.

(50:04):
What I have done is I have been travelingto Chile to talk to politicians.
I've been in Sweden like we havebeen organizing, an organization been
doing so much work, so to processthat you are a victim of a crime.
That I can't understand it untiltoday that I was kidnapped as
a baby because it's so insane.

(50:25):
And also to, I didn't know about it.
Like I, I really think I knew, but Ididn't know it the way a mom experiencing
being separated from your baby.
Or from your, child.
So actually to hear the mothers talkabout this, it is very important.

(50:50):
And so I think again, the story that youtell their stories, Lisa, and that people
listen to them, I think it's so important.
And unfortunately yeah,they're not all here.
They're already like dying.
But some are here and Yeah important.

In Chile.
Are they believed?

Yeah, they are.

Okay.

But the problem is the probably so now.
They for years and years they weren't,but now they are in another way.
I think it's a lot have changed andfor me, for the first time this time
in Chile, because I've been back andforward many times, but this time was
the first time I felt that also theindigenous community, like the Mapuche

(51:37):
community, that they also had realizedthat they have lost a generation,
like so many children has been stolen.
And that wasn't the caselike five years ago.
So we have been working on tellingand showing up like I am one
of the babies that disappeared.

(51:58):
So that is like have been my workto just show like we are here.
And that was very nice to feellike the indigenous community
have understood or have seen us.
Or heard and heard us andalso want to include us.
So I think that is very important.
Like little by little,but still it's so slow.

(52:21):
Everything.
Yeah.

So I think most people are gonna be irritated when I say
this, but Excavated Earth is inSwedish and got translated in Spanish.
Hooray.
It's not translated into Englishyet, and I'm assuming a lot, most of
my listeners are English speakers.
So if you're a publisher andyou wanna get this in English,
we have a lineup of customers.

(52:43):
When we did book club with Lisa,people were very irritated.
They couldn't read her next book.
So there's a greatdemand for it over here.
So if you know of someonewho can translate this into
English and get it published inEnglish, that would be amazing.
Can you guys talk about yourrecommendations now because
it's connected to this story?

(53:04):
And Maria, you mentioned oneof the organizations already
that you wanted to talk about.

Yeah, because in, in Chile, like this scandal with stolen children,
it already appeared back in 2014.
So they knew about stolen childrenwithout the, within the country back then.
So it, several organization they, ornetworks, they started back then in 2014.

(53:32):
And for us, like in, for mepersonally, like Hijos y Madres
del Silencio they have, they aredoing such a great job with mothers
and like they are a community today.
They meet up every week andthey support each other.
And like Lisa said, they do this,those big events like yearly where they

(53:56):
invite everyone from the police that, isinvestigating this and people from abroad,
like author Lisa and like they do this,those big and important things both in
like in the daily life of the mothers andthe families, but also the big events.

(54:16):
So I really, and they, okay, so they,what they do is that you can contact
them through email or they haven't, weare going to share that information.
So you, so this is just one organization,but I feel for them and they are
very dear to me because they aredoing such a like big, huge work.

(54:37):
And so what they do they help, if youare in an adoptee, you need to speak,
have someone around you that can helpyou with Spanish because they are mostly
Spanish speaking, but you can searchif you are looking for your family, you
can contact them and they can help you,guide you how you search your family.
Same thing like from if there isa mom in Chile looking for the

(54:59):
child, they also inform, theyhave, they are on Instagram and on.
Facebook.
So they publish those squares, Ithink they're called busquedas so like
search pictures, posters where you haveinformation about the mom or vice versa
about, and so they do that and theywork with the investigation in Chile.

(55:22):
That is the people that areinvestigating the crimes and yeah.
So that is a big, you can look forthem, but it has a very long name.

And also I just want to add that they do this for free.

Yeah,

it's a non-profit, voluntary based and completely
free for adoptees and mothers touse 'cause they don't want to make
money 'cause they feel that peoplehave already made money out of us.
So I just wanted to know that as well.

Yeah.

That's a good note.
We'll make sure to link tothem on the, in the show notes.
And as I did, I went and I clicked.
You can click translate on thewebsite if you're in Google Chrome.
And I looked through the picturesyou were talking about on Facebook,
Maria, and I was like, oh my gosh,this is, it's really heart wrenching.
So good for them for doing that.

Yeah.
And one, one important thing is ifyou are an adoptee and you feel like,
oh, I don't really understand like mystory, or I have questions there, you
can always contact the investigationin Chile, the crime investigation.
And I have noticed that people in theUS, they are a little bit like careful

(56:38):
about that because they ask you forinformation like, what was your name in
your in your Chilean passport, and whatis, what do you do for a living today?
So they have the, this form so thepolice want you to fill out a form
because they are very traditionaland old fashioned in Chile.
So they have this form and weare going also going to link.

(57:01):
So in Sweden, the authorities, theyhave published the form, you can
download it, fill out your informationand email it to the police in Chile.
So they also have a big databaseof mothers or family that are
searching for the children.
So they do not only investigate likethe crimes, but they also have this

(57:26):
big bank of people looking, searching.
And I also want to mention that you canalways do like a DNA, you know those
big American companies, you can do thethose DNA tests, but also if you're
part of the investigation, they want youto do this governmental like they have

(57:48):
other DNA tests they want you to do.
So I know, for example, theystarted with this after they
started to investigate my case.
Today they say they want me to dothe DNA test and my mom in Chile
just to make sure I have done onealready during the commercial one.
But for the crime investigation,they do it another one.

(58:10):
So you have to go to the consulatewhere you live to do the tests.

To make sure you weren't switched around or something.

Yeah.
And also I guess for thelegal, the legal terms.
So that is something so we canalso share where you can download
that documents to fill out.

Okay.
So if you're a Chilean adoptee or ifyou know someone that was adopted from
Chile, like you likely, you might noteven know that this has all transpired.
So it's, we wanna know the truth, right?
Even if it's difficult.
I hope that people engage with this.
Thank you.

Yeah.
And also like for the future, we arereally trying to like both Hijos y
Madres del Silencio as an organizationand different adoptee, different groups
of adoptees in different countries.
We are trying to get, like in Korea,like a recognition like this happened,
and we want them to also actually startthis preparation and, but we what we

(59:12):
want for the future because maybe you asan adopted person, maybe you don't want
to know because it's scary to, to learnthe truth, but we also have the next
generation, we also have our children.
So in sometimes the children are theones that are searching for the truth.
So if we have this DNA bank, as inArgentina for example, if we have

(59:37):
that, then we will make sure thatthose crimes, that what happened to
us or that the future generation,that they will have something, a
place to go to, to learn the truth.
So it's very important with agovernmental DNA database and
not only those, commercial ones.
So yeah, it's a lot to, to work for.

(59:58):
And you know it, I know this willtake years and I was connected to
an adopted person from Chile in theUS that is, he's building up this.
What do you call it?
Like this group of lawyers and peopleworking to fight for justice and they

(01:00:20):
are making this case about suing theChilean government or this Chilean,
the state of Chile because theydidn't look out for us as babies.
So you have many different,like I said, groups and
organization and what we work for.
But yeah, there's a lot out there.

Haley Radke (01:00:38):
Thank you, Maria.
Okay.
I'm just gonna do a quick aside withLisa, because I know you have been working
with the Korean Truth and ReconciliationCommittee and also very exciting.
Congratulations.
You just reclaimed yourKorean citizenship.

(01:00:59):
I know you've been livingthere for a little while.
Can you talk about those things 'causethere's some big things that have
happened and as we're recording this,like it's gonna come out, in a month
or so, but just as things are today ifyou have comments on that and why did
you decide to reclaim your citizenship?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom (01:01:16):
If we start with the citizenship, I lived in New
Zealand when I applied for it andwe, my family and I had just been in
Korea then, and I had been talkingin a national assembly, the Korean
Parliament, about what happened to me.
I had been involved in a bigexhibition with adoptee only and

(01:01:37):
it had transformed me in a way.
And my kids fell in love withKorea completely and started this
campaign about us moving there.
So I thought that this could bea good time to try and see if
I can restore my citizenship.
So I started the process in New Zealandand they said that yeah, it could take
half a year or a bit longer than that.

(01:01:59):
And it was an insane process becauseI had to explain to them, 'cause they
had no knowledge about adoption really,that a lot of my documents that you want
to see are actually falsified, so youcan't really trust what's in it, but
hopefully we can work this out anyway.
And then they told me that theyrecommended me not to move to Korea

(01:02:20):
until this had been finalized.
But my kids were pushing and saidwe need to move to Korea now.
So in the end, we decided toleave New Zealand and move to
Korea before I got my citizenship.
And it was lucky because I was grantedit two years after the application.
So it took a long time.
And yeah, I did it partlybecause I thought that it would

(01:02:42):
make things easy with a move.
But yeah, we moved before it wasfinalized, but also that symbolically
and emotionally, it felt like animportant step because activists had
fought for adoptees to be able to dothis because Korea doesn't actually
allow doubles or dual citizenship.
Sweden does, but not Korea.

(01:03:02):
So they have an exceptionfor adoptees only.

Oh.

Yeah.
But the thing is, which is a littlebit different, 'cause my kids have
dual citizenship too, but not Korean.
They Swedish and British, whichmeans that they are, yeah,
they are my kids, they have twocitizenships, but they are one person.
But me, I'm restoring my citizenship.
So I am actually becomingChung Wool-Rim again.

(01:03:30):
So now I'm both Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom.
A Swede and Chung Wool-Rim , a Korean.
So I have two identities, which isinsane and it's probably gonna cause
some sort of administrative chaos.
But yeah, we'll see about that.
But I've been asking around withother adoptees who had restored

(01:03:51):
citizenship and yeah, it is a bit ofa mess, but it's also working so yeah.

But two identities, that's just that's really reclaiming your
adoptee identity 'cause we're all likesplit in some way, I'm sure inside.

Yeah, it feels very, I don't know telling, but the
beautiful thing is that I got to havea ceremony with other people too,
who got a citizenship and I boughta beautiful handbook and I got a
big nice Korean flag to wave aroundand yeah, it all felt very special.
But now I'm in this yeah, chaoswith everything I need to do.

(01:04:24):
I need to change a lot of things here.
Yeah.
So a lot of paperwork to fillout, which I absolutely hate it.
I'm not looking forward to that, but

what?

It still feels incredible.

I thought you were raised in Sweden.
I was told you all love paperwork.
No.
Okay.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Oh yeah, that's true. (01:04:40):
undefined
I'm the exception.

You're the exception.
Yeah.
Do you have comments on thefindings of the commission?
Any of the recent media reports on that?

Oh yeah, I, and I am gonna try and keep this short as well.
So I just wanted to mention firstthat I was personally involved in
making sure that 21 Swedish cases weresubmitted to the commission in 22.
And this was another, a Swedish case too.
But me and my network, theSwedish Korean Adoptees Network,
we are representing 21 of these.

(01:05:13):
And it's been quite a process and a longtime just waiting for things to happen.
And now, as you might know, there'sbeen a bit of a political chaos in
Korea because of the impeachment of thesitting president and the impeachment
of the president that replaced him.
So we are gonna have a, anelection in June, so I get to vote.

(01:05:36):
Very soon, which is also incredible.
So the current TSC, which is, we canjust loosely call it TSC two because
it was relaunched in 21, I thinkit could be 2020, I could be wrong.
Started in 2005 and then ended in2010 and then relaunched again.

(01:05:58):
So 311 cases out of 367 submitted intotal remained to be investigated.
So we were very worried because thefinal report was gonna come in May.
We were very worried about what theywere gonna do with the remaining cases.
So a lot of the media now is sayingthat they're closing, but it's rather

(01:06:20):
that they are putting it on hold.
So our cases, the 311 remaining is saidthat they are unresolved, not closed,
they're unresolved until further notice.
So what we are hoping for and what wethink will happen is that the TSC three
will open with a new government and ourcases will continue to be investigated.

(01:06:43):
And we are also hoping and workingfor that they will be able to, that
other adoptees will be able to submittheir cases now so that the 367
cases will be joined by new cases.
Because a lot of people have asked, canwe submit our case too, can we submit?
And it's been closed for newcases, so hopefully this will

(01:07:06):
actually lead to something better.
A new fresh government and more roomto work with our cases, the ones
that already have been submitted,but also the acceptance of new cases.

Amazing.
Thank you for that information andif we ever hear that there's opening
for more cases or things that like,we're following along with those
news and we'll let you know andwe'll keep people up to date on that.
Thank you so much, Maria and Lisa.
What an honor to hear your story mariaand I love this friendship of you built.
What I wanna recommend folks check outis you guys have a podcast together and

(01:07:41):
I hope you start recording more episodes.
I know podcasting is a lot of work,but you're a delight together.
I love hearing your voices.
It's called Lifting the Adoption Fogand listening to it, I was like, oh
man, these are my kind of girls becauseyou sorry to call you girls, women
because you're so passionate aboutadoptees, you're activists, organizers,

(01:08:04):
like you're getting stuff done.
Like people will love hearingyou talk about adoptee issues.
And so I hope folks go and check that out.
Where can we connect with youonline and follow and hopefully
hear news that we're gonna see anEnglish copy of Excavating Earth?
Why can I have such a horrible saying thatExcavating Earth, what is it in Swedish?

Den uppgrävda jorden which is even more tricky
to say than Den uppgrävda jorden.

Okay, and then in Spanish.

Tierra Excavada.

Okay.

Which is the literal translation so that's
beautiful that they kept it.
Yeah.

All right.
Amazing.
Okay, so Maria, where can weconnect with you and follow online?

Maria Diemar (01:08:44):
Yeah, so I have an Instagram account and
connected to a Facebook account.
I own my story, Maria Dimer.
I think it said, I hope you link it.

I will link it and yes, that's what it's called.

It's such a long name.
Yeah, and Lisa and I, we have the podcast,we have the Instagram for that too.
We are more frequently, we recordmore frequently in Swedish, and that
is Den Talande Tystnaden, but yeah,like you said, we have the Lifting
the Adoption Fog, so yeah, that's.

We can link to your Swedish podcast.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, it's a bit more active.

And I'm sure we have some Swedish listeners.

Yeah.
And you can also find me onInstagram on Chung Wool-Rim.
And it's good if you share the link'cause no one knows how to spell that.

I, yeah, one of these days I'll get it right when I pronounce it.
What a delight.
Thank you so much.
You both thank you for yourwork for adoptees, truly.
And I am so glad that you'reboth in this world working.
We're all working alongside each other.

Yeah.
Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, thank you.

Sometimes people ask me like, why I keep podcasting?
Oh, you just talk about thesame things adoptees we should
just get over it by now.
When you hear a story like this,okay, where at a minimum 20,000 babies

(01:10:20):
we're kidnapped and stolen and soldto other countries, like how can you
not become radicalized in some way?
Literally how in one thing.
We didn't get it, we didn't get intoit in this interview 'cause two people,

(01:10:43):
there's so many things I wanna get into.
The story is fascinating.
I wanted to ask them like somany more questions, but like
we, we already went over time.
Like you, I'm sure you get it.
But we didn't get into this except forafter I was saying to them how Maria in
this interview says the skin color shadingright determines whether or not they could

(01:11:09):
possibly find places for these children.
And the racism of it all, I remindedthem, I was like the United States
that the babies that are available forinternational adoption from the United
States are almost all black babies.
If you think these things stillaren't happening today you're

(01:11:32):
just not paying attention.
Like this isn't just like some old storyof, oh, this happened back in the day.
These things are still happeningin current day countries.
Like now this is happening all over.
I know what's happeningin the United States.

(01:11:52):
Perhaps not children being literallykidnapped, but might as well be
with the amount of coercion that'shappening from adoption agencies.
And that's my opinion anyway.
I hope you follow along withLisa and Maria, there's so many

(01:12:15):
amazing adoptee activists, likebringing these stories to light.
Like we can't forget these, thishistory because we're repeating it
and we just can't be doing that.
Like we can't be stealing babies fromwomen just 'cause they're poor, like

(01:12:36):
babies are not a commodity, right?
Like
I'm laughing 'cause it's so egregiousand just I, there's no words for it.
It's shocking, it's horrifying.

(01:12:57):
And if you look at the practices ofthings that are happening today, we're
just calling it something different.
And we're still stealing babies frompoor mothers who don't have supports.
Oh my goodness.
Anyway, I appreciate you listening.

(01:13:18):
I know some of these thingsare so hard to listen to.
It's, it is, it's very hard.
And to think of the impacts it hashad on those, say 20,000 plus adoptees
from Chile, and many of them likelydon't even know that they were stolen.
And like you and me, perhapshave this idea like Maria did.

(01:13:45):
Oh, like your mom gave youaway when in truth, in Maria's
experience, she was forcibly taken.
So things to think about.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for listening to adoptee voices.
If you want Adoptee design to continueto exist in this world, please

(01:14:06):
consider joining us on Patreon.
It's adopteeson.com/community,and we do our best to help support
you and also the show to supportmore adoptees around the world.
We would love to haveyour support over there.
Thanks for listening.
Let's talk again soon.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Maria Diemar and Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom