April 16, 2025 • 26 mins
The Institute of Internal Auditors Presents: All Things Internal Audit
In this episode, Mike Jacka talks with Anne Millage about his decision to end the “Mind of Jacka” blog after 900 posts. Mike shares some favorite posts, the origins of his ideas, and the role humor plays in his writing. He looks back at his internal audit career and offers his thoughts on the evolution of the profession.
Read Mike's 900th blog post: Mind of Jacka: 900 Posts: Now What?
Host:
Anne Millage
Director of content, The IIA
Guests:
Mike Jacka, CIA, CPA, CPCU, CLU
Chief creative pilot at Flying Pig Audit, Consulting and Training Solutions
Key Points:
Introduction [00:00-00:33]
- Overview of Mike's contributions to the internal audit community through his writing.
Mike's Journey [00:34-02:19]
- Discussion on Mike's career in internal auditing and his decision to start the blog.
- Insights into
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hi, I am Anne Millage,
content director at the I I A Welcome
to the All Things Internal Audit podcast.
Today we have a special episode as we say goodbye
to an iconic blog in the internal audit
community, the Mind of Jacka.
After 16 years and 900 posts, Mike Jacka, the blog's founder
and longtime author, is Stepping Away.
(00:22):
Mike is a true veteran of the internal audit profession,
known for his expert knowledge, insightful commentary,
and of course his signature humor
that has made his writing stand out for so many years.
In this episode, I'm thrilled to sit down
with my longtime friend to discuss his journey,
why he's decided it's time to bring the blog to an end
and what the future holds.
So grab your headphones
(00:43):
and join us as we dive into a conversation about Mike's
incredible blog adventure, filled with wisdom, laughs,
and of course, some great stories from
the world of internal auditing. Hi, Mike.
Hello. How are you?
Fine. How are you, Anne?
I'm fine. I was trying to remember
how long we've known each other.
(01:03):
I seriously don't remember the first time we met. Do you? I
Mean, I know it was before you were married
because at one point I got an edit on, I believe,
a blog post or an article,
and I said, oh, who is this person?
And I sent this very nice email,
and then later I realized it was you.
And I told you, oh, I'd have been much meaner
in the email if I'd have known it.
I do remember that. Okay.
(01:25):
So after 900 blog posts, you're finally running outta words.
Oh, no. Just ask my family.
I don't need to. Um, what made you decide
to end the Minda jacket after 900
Posts? Um,
900 was a good round number.
I've been thinking about it earlier.
I kept calling it semi-retired
because I quit working with Farmer's Insurance about 12
(01:47):
years ago and was doing this semi full-time,
doing the training, doing the speaking,
and doing the writing.
And, um, I just found myself thinking,
what else do I wanna do?
And which other directions do I wanna go?
And there was an interesting thing too.
I started feeling like I was repeating myself, which,
you know, at 900 you probably are, which kind
(02:08):
of raised questions in my mind.
One, then why are people paying attention
to why do I repeat myself?
And is anybody listening? That would be the number three.
So it was just seeing the right time based on, eh,
what's going on with everything.
And no, I, it times out Nice.
I'm also turning 70 July,
so all these nice round numbers come
(02:29):
Together.
So, question just from me specifically,
have you ever had a thought about a post
that you didn't include in the first draft of the article?
So what you know is because,
and I used to also have the, uh, column in the magazine,
which I think you gave me 300 words or something.
(02:50):
I mean, it takes me that long to say hello.
And I worked with, uh, David Erno at that time. Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I told him, look, I started about 3000 words
and then I have to cut it down.
And the blog post is very much that way.
And it's not necessarily, I try
and keep the basic thoughts, the basic ideas.
It's the fluff andross around it that I've gotta decide
(03:11):
what is important, what isn't rearranging it.
It is an interesting thing, you know, it's,
it's like the old line.
This letter would've been shorter if I'd had the time
From the very beginning.
And I just added in here of time,
you brought a much needed humorous slant, um,
to both your articles
and your blogs, you know, starting
with on the lighter side in the magazine, um,
(03:31):
and continuing with IA humor and the minder jack of blogs.
So, you know, often your humor is a hit,
but every once in a while, I guess my question is
how do I get to audit land?
And then how did you know there was a fly on your head?
Wow, we're going, jugular aren't, well,
the land one is a, is a hoot.
(03:53):
That's it up.
So I would write these pieces when I was doing the pure
humor ones, and I'll go back to one of the other comments.
When we first talked about this,
I submitted three different ideas to the, uh, committee
to see if they thought it was worth it.
One person wrote back, these two are
funny, but this one's insulting.
Somebody else wrote back and said, well, this first one is
insulting and the next two are funny.
The next ones, the next person said, none of 'em are funny.
(04:15):
And the last person said, they're all hilarious.
And I think I talked to you at
that point and said, get ready.
This will be the response you're seeing the range of it.
And so I'm gonna sidetrack from yours.
One of my favorites was I did, uh,
auditing carol's Christmas carols that were auditing based.
We got a couple of people who said, oh,
they're just reinforcing the stereotypes of the whole.
And it's like, that's the humor folks.
(04:36):
That's the part that's supposed to be funny.
Again, if this, if the profession takes itself too
seriously, it's in as much trouble as anything.
But, uh, to your point, I wrote one about audit land
and I made a comment, it was about how the IA was going
to build an amusement park.
I said, the only people that'll get all these jokes,
there's about five people in
the world that'll get all the jokes.
Because it was in jokes about audit
and in jokes about Disneyland.
(04:58):
Then you guys got a question from somebody,
a legitimate question, when was it gonna open?
And how did they get there?
And you fired that to me
and said, can you come up with a response for them?
Expertly, expertly dodging the issue.
And so I wrote back, you know,
I really appreciate when people understand the humor
(05:18):
and, you know, come, you know, and trying
to give them the benefit of the doubt on it.
And I believe a year later, the gentleman was on a tour
and actually again, legitimately asked you guys
what was going on with audio.
Yeah. You've taken you seriously
And you have to explain the fly.
I'm sorry that was you.
Well, I think, you know, your column was so unique.
(05:40):
You are so unique, um, to anything else
that's in the magazine, we had
to add something special to it.
And the fly on the head to us was just funny.
And, you know, it was just the right touch. But we did, I
Thought it was, I thought it was hilarious.
And you know, it's one of those
where people would go, why a fly?
And it's almost like, well, if you have
to ask it, you don't need it.
Yeah. So, yeah.
(06:00):
And we got a question from somebody, somebody who read it,
who said, you know, do you know he has a fly on his head?
So then when I would, my last day on the committee,
you guys had a nice cake
with my picture and a fly on its head.
I remember that. Yeah.
You know, one of the most popular posts that you did,
it was actually recently was Get Off My Lawn. Um,
Popular being a relative term, the one
(06:22):
that was most viewed and commented on.
Is that a better way to put that?
Yeah, well, no, I think it, I think it was,
yeah, that's a better way to put it.
But people really, um, got into it
and wanted to comment on it and,
and it even spawned a, um, a follow up post by someone else.
So, um, yeah, I received 48 comments.
Um, a lot of conversation.
(06:42):
You were, you were saying like, a grumpy old man,
get off my lawn, that remote auditing does not work.
And people had a lot of opinions about that.
Why do you think this one created such a sensation?
Well, for one, I did take the pendulum all the way over.
Very often I try and take, you know, both sides
of the story a little bit like that.
And this one, I just went all the way with it
(07:04):
and kind of the way I feel about it too.
So I think that's why. So that people
were more active at attack about what they were seeing.
And some liked it a lot didn't like it.
And in my mind, I don't know, that whole discussion
of working from home, as you may know,
some people may know you try and raise your kids, right?
(07:24):
But my son became an internal auditor, so what could you do?
And he and I, again, this weekend we're having this very
discussion about how do you work from home?
If you're an internal auditor, how do you do it part-time?
And because right now you're seeing more
and more companies trying to bring people back in.
Okay, that's a tough, tough shift for people
who are suddenly used to the other way.
(07:45):
You're doing it all saying that at the end
of the conversation with my son,
I said, I've gotta be honest with you.
I don't know. I've never had to work in it.
I just know what worked for me.
And so I think again, that,
that it is an active discussion going on right now.
And I think that's why people jumped on it.
It's something a lot of people have very well based on my
son, they're very serious about their feelings
(08:06):
on that subject.
Is your, did you say, is your son working from home or,
Uh, he is currently three days in the
office and two days at home.
So, you know, it's hybrid like most people are.
I don't even like hybrid, but again, I'm an old man.
What can I say? I, you know, I, what I grew up in
and grew up in, in internal audit with Farmer's Insurance.
We were in the office and everybody was in the office,
(08:27):
but we had a very, I'll go
with popular internal audit department.
People would just come and talk to us.
That doesn't happen if you're not sitting your desk.
People don't call up and say, Hey,
let's have a Zoom call and just chat.
You know, when you walk into somebody's office
and you, well, okay, so I had a meeting
with somebody recently, uh, with the city council,
and I went in and the first thing I noticed on the side,
(08:48):
there was a shovel, but it had a guitar neck as the handle
instantly started, say, what's going,
what it is was from the groundbreaking, I think of a Gibson,
Gibson or Fender, I can't remember, factory in town.
Well, that's the kind of thing
that happens when you're in person, not on the phone.
You know, you start saying, oh, what's that?
Hey, let's talk. And you're, you're starting
to make connections, which is so fundamental to the success
(09:09):
of any internal audit department.
So you got me going. It doesn't take much.
Now I get people writing in about this.
So we've mentioned a couple of your, um, your popular ones
or most commented on ones.
What are the ones that are your favorites and why?
Few of them. Just a few of them. Yeah. I know.
I, you know, I'll be honest with you, I,
(09:31):
that's an off the top of the head.
I cannot think of anything I like when I'm done.
And I, my final run
through on these things is to read 'em out loud.
Just a habit I picked up a long time ago.
And when I'm done, if I get to that last line
and I go, yeah, that was it, then I've done what I like.
Um, you know, the, the long one was great just
(09:51):
because of the discussion it had.
I like any of the humor ones I threw in there.
'cause that's just me, haven't written many
of those in a very long time.
But those can be hilarious.
Uh, I just have so much fun writing them.
But other topics, well, I'll tell you an interesting one.
Uh, this will go back a number of years
because it was the beginning of social media
and I put a couple of posts out about,
(10:11):
I suddenly figured out, I've told this story of places
before, but my kids went to Comic-Con all the time.
My daughter goes to Comic-Con, comes back, she's real upset.
This is a lot of years ago, obviously.
And I said, what's up?
She goes, well, Warner Brothers had this thing,
and if you were following them on one of the,
I may have even been before Twitter, then if you went
to this room, you got a bunch of swag.
(10:32):
And she didn't realize it. Something
about that resonated with me.
And I went, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Social media is more than narcissistic naval gazing.
It's more than listing what you had for breakfast.
It was a real thing.
And so I actually did two
or three posts on the subject, uh,
just 'cause it was brand new.
Nobody else was doing it.
It turned out Farmer's Insurance, I think was one
of the first audit departments
(10:53):
to do a full social media audit within the organization
because we got the jump on it.
But for me, it led to a lot of other things.
But more importantly, it was that opportunity to,
opportunity to get the word out
and say, Hey, here's something big going on.
Pay attention. And as we all know now, it was a big thing.
I just lucked into it from the get go.
And the other part was, I, I did do training on it.
(11:14):
The interesting thing about doing
that training was I told people, look, there,
I'm not gonna be able to tell you that much,
but you're still gonna know more than
99% of the people in your company.
It's kinda like with AI now, right?
Yes. That, well, I'll tell you, that was another fun one
because it, the response to it, so I can't remember,
I threw into chatt PT something simple like gimme an,
(11:35):
gimme an audit report of, uh, accounts receivable
or accounts payable, one or the other, and it spit it out.
And so the whole post was basically that.
But I ended it with the point that,
is this any different than what you're writing right now?
You know, it looked like the bad audit
reports I've seen forever.
And so, you know, again, one more time, we can be replaced.
(11:56):
And that was the, the point of it.
And that's what we all know about ai.
Now we can be replaced if we aren't doing more
than what a computer can do.
I thought I'd try and make some real points
while we had this discussion.
That's the need for a good editor. Right.
One thing you and I do share in common,
this is very serious, is we both have a very strong dislike
(12:18):
for the word utilize.
So I'd love to know,
what are some other words that make you cringe?
Uh, cringe. No. Um, well, obviously mute point.
That's, that's just one that will drive me crazy.
Not using the Oxford comma will drive me crazy.
Oh, not, not supposed to go down that road, are we?
(12:38):
Um, oh God. You know, that, that's one of the big ones.
The bigger one. I,
we won't go into news too much other than the fact
that news readers really should read what they're gonna say
before it comes up.
I we're going down a different road, for example,
just recently, uh,
a newscaster here in Phoenix was talking about Belarus
and she called it Ris mispronunciations of things
(13:01):
that you're supposed to know that in general,
mispronunciations will drive me crazy.
Um, there's certain phrases, it'll be what it'll be,
you know, I know it'll be okay, let's go.
I mean, use judiciously. It's okay.
Not utilize judiciously, but used judiciously.
Um, you know, cliches and, and trust me, I live
(13:23):
and die on cliches.
One of the things I used to try
and watch for when I was writing was when I used a cliche
and if nothing else turned it into an audit one, you know,
like get our ducks in a row.
You just simply say, get our mechanical pencils in a row.
Something like that. You know,
Change it up.
Okay, now I'm gonna get a little more serious.
So you've helped the magazine, you know, with our,
(13:44):
as we were talking about earlier with our editorial content,
as far back as I can remember, as a writer,
as a committee member, as a member
of the magazine's editorial advisory board,
what first drew you, I guess to the i i a
and to the magazine specifically into its committees?
Just the love of writing or was
There Well, we'll start with the i i a
(14:05):
and just so everybody knows how long ago we're talking,
I started working in internal audit in 83
and uh, at Farmers we were getting the magazine.
So I was seeing the magazine and I saw the certification.
And so I actually was one
of the first people in Farmer's Insurance.
Not the first, but one of the first
to get the designation by taking the test.
(14:26):
Most everybody else who had it had grandfathered in.
So I continued to read the magazine,
I was learning the information from it.
So it became, right off the bat, it became a great resource
for a new auditor to find out
what was going on in the world.
Then, I mean, I just writing something
that I've always wanted to do.
One of these days I'm gonna get something published in a
science fiction magazine, fingers crossed.
(14:48):
But I've always kind of written it things.
And so there was something that came up
and I thought, hey, let's give this a shot.
So I sent it to the magazine
and that was Anne Graham was the editor then.
Did you ever work with Anne?
I know, I mean it may have been a short time, but
No, but I've heard wonderful things about her. Yeah.
Anybody who worked with her absolutely fantastic.
And part of the reason the magazine is as was as good
(15:11):
as it was when you were able to be involved to take it
to higher levels, thought I'd do that for you.
Um, but I got back one
of the nicest rejection letters you ever saw in your life.
And it was great. And it would,
it drove me to want to do more.
And I think my second or third one
got accepted or something like that.
Okay, so you ask for the back
of the story, you're gonna get the whole story. They
(15:32):
Won It here. Arizona
State University has a western branch, a SU West.
And so we started talking to them about internships
and some people out there when they remember Stanley Chang,
he was very active in the I I a, um,
and he was one of the professors there.
He said, oh, you submitted something? I said, yes.
And he said, Hey, lemme do this.
And he put me on the committee. Next thing I know,
(15:54):
he's nominated me for the committee and I'm knee deep in it.
And so, alright, that's fine, you get into it.
But right off the bat, interesting group
of characters, A lot of fun.
A lot of those early days had some interesting people,
I won't use their names out loud,
but you know, the battles I'm talking about
Anne, that were going on.
And so it just grew from that.
So the more I got involved, the more I got back,
(16:17):
the more fun it was, the more interesting it was.
Got into the training aspect of it,
actually pub published a couple of books through the I i a,
it was just all, you know, it meshed perfectly with what
as a professional I was trying to do.
So as you've mentioned, you've been in the profession
for many, many years and you've written a lot about it.
Um, what have you seen
(16:38):
as the cha the profession's biggest challenges?
And then what are you, what are your thoughts on
where the profession is today? Two big questions.
Yeah. I think the biggest challenge, oh,
lemme go down an interesting road.
We are seen as the secondary to the accounting world.
We are perceived that way.
People go get an accounting degree
and oh, I guess I'll wind up an internal audit.
(16:59):
And it is a mindset that's out there.
There's a lot that don't.
I had an auditor working for me who actually went to school
to become an internal auditor.
I used to pick on him mercilessly for that.
But we still have that image issue
and we still have a lot of auditors
that are ticking in tying, we still have a lot of auditors
who are doing old school work.
I could even get off on a rant about socks right now,
(17:20):
but I'm not gonna do that
because we get stuck in our old ways.
And I talk about that creativity
and that ability to do that.
That's how we get out of it.
I think the biggest challenge has always been for us
to be seen as more than accountants, more than just
suppliers of information, but to, you know, we, we used
to talk about being a major partner.
(17:40):
You know, it's almost being on the right hand of the CEO.
That role is so important for us to try and get up.
I see also,
and this may be related to it, we are not fast adapters
and I'll use ai, I'll use data analysis, all of that.
I've been to a lot of, lot of conferences
(18:01):
where they talk about, you know, wow,
we need to do this in data analytics.
We need to do this in cats. We need to do this.
I would guess that 20% of what people talk about trying
to accomplish, they actually do.
I got busy with an audit. I got busy with this.
It's about refocusing on the important things I made up
to 20%, by the way, I dunno.
I mean, so that's the challenge. Now, keep in mind,
(18:21):
having been in this profession this long,
the changes I've seen have been phenomenal.
I mean, when I started in audit, we used
to write an audit report and here's what's wrong, bye.
And we were out. You know, now we work,
most audit departments work consultatively, but a real word.
Sure. Why not with the client to come up with solutions
that really will make a difference.
(18:42):
We used to say, you got 63 files wrong. Talk to you later.
Now it's okay. Why? What's the process? What's happening?
Not just that they're wrong. So right off the bat,
that's just been so huge for us
and part of why we do have value,
why we haven't just been thrown into the dustbin of history.
We're able to do those kinds of things.
And so, you know, we just, we talked a second ago about ai,
(19:04):
how are we gonna adapt it?
How are we gonna adapt robotics?
How are we gonna adapt all
these things that we're talking about.
And that needs to happen to continue that forward thrust
that, you know, I've seen over 30 years.
Okay, so the editor of the magazine, um,
Tim McCollum had wanted me to ask you this question.
Well, no, He said, you know,
we all know you're a big Disney fan.
(19:25):
Mm-hmm. So if you were gonna send the Disney imagineers
to reimagine the profession, what would you want them to do?
Wow. You don't know what a wheelhouse you hit here
we were having, you know me, you ask a question,
I go somewhere else with it, right?
We were having at farmer's insurance discussions about what
(19:45):
to do with internal audit and how to make a difference.
And I was on the, the shuttle at LAX
and y'all, any of you have been to LAX, you know
how exciting that can be.
And a bus went by, that was a Disney bus.
And I thought, man, you know, that would be fun.
And then suddenly it hit me, how do we make working
with internal audit like Disneyland?
And that became the thrust of all our meetings.
(20:07):
We had 10 regional offices, we had separate meetings,
you know, we went out and visited them all.
And that was the thrust of our conversation.
How do we make it like going to Disneyland?
What would imagineers do with it?
Well, first off, they'd probably come up
with an audio animatronic, CAE.
But besides that, um, you know,
I think that's where they would focus.
Disney is about experience
(20:29):
and it's about immersive experience.
You know, you walk past, you take Disneyland,
you walk past the berm, and suddenly you're immersed.
You're not in the world, you're on Main Street
or you're in Tomorrowland or you're in whatever one.
The rides are very immersive.
You go on the new Star Wars rides,
you are in the middle of it all.
Okay, how do we make an immersive experience?
They would try and make immer an immersive experience
(20:51):
where people suddenly are in somewhere they wanna be.
And that, again, struck, that speaks to
what are internal auditors doing
that will make things better
and different for the organization.
I like to think we came as close as anybody could
at Phoenix at the Farmer's Audit Department
because once a year we'd have an open house.
And by the way, if you give people free
(21:12):
food, they will show up.
Trust me, you can do an internal audit department.
But people would come in
and they were suddenly in this internal audit department.
We had a very weird one as you, you know, a little bit like
what you could see behind me on the screen here.
Oh, I'm sorry. They can't, you can see. And, um,
Othered messy.
Yeah, I know. They became, you know,
they were seeing the experience
of being a part of internal audit.
(21:34):
So the immersive experience is the part.
And so I think it's important
for audit departments, auditors, anybody.
What do you think that immersive experience should be?
What is the experience that customer should have?
One of the fascinating things that I did in some training
with some people was to go through
and talk about what the customer wants and needs.
And I said, wait a minute.
Your internal audit though, this isn't your organization.
(21:56):
What do your clients expect at the end of this?
What do they want at the end of it?
And most internal auditors that makes their heads hurt.
They do not think in terms of what is success
to the client other than getting you out of their office.
Right. And so, I mean, I think
that's where it all needs to go.
The audit, the audit departments need to take,
spend the time, drop one audit, what's gonna happen
(22:19):
to the world when you don't do that petty cash audit.
Drop that audit and spend the time exploring
what you are doing and how the customers care,
the clients care, and which direction you need to go
to get to that point.
And with that, I'll get off my pulpit. Go ahead.
That's great answer. So what would your advice be
for other internal auditors about writing
(22:39):
or about following their passions?
Um, in the writing aspect of it, I've,
I've actually told a couple of the people this,
about articles about presenting.
Very often you think everybody already knows what you know,
and there's a good chance they don't, uh,
or they don't know it the way you do
or the spin you have on it.
So take a swing at it now. I know.
(23:01):
Um, I'm real big about,
I'll just write it and see what happens.
And I know a lot of people can't do that.
They're better off working with the outline
and I know the magazine will work closely
with them if they're given an outline to work from.
But, um, I ultimately, that's it.
You think you got a good idea enough
to put together an article
and flesh it out and talk about it?
I will say that one of the big things that's important for
(23:21):
so much of the writing is
as much practical as you can get into it.
You know, there's a,
that's one of the problems I always have.
I have a lot of great
theories, but what does it really mean?
And do I have proof it works?
So there's that, that's goes on.
But there's part two,
which is follow your passion to that whole thing.
And for my, in my case, the passion aligned with
what was going on with internal audit.
(23:42):
But you gotta find what's fun. Yeah. What is it you enjoy?
What are you doing? Maybe it'll work in with it.
Maybe it won't. It's also about working your brain
and doing different things with your
brain than just internal audit.
Again, to that, making those connections
or whichever way you go, that's huge in
allowing yourself the flexibility to just be a human being.
(24:03):
One of the things, I have a slide in one of my presentations
that says, simply be a human being.
And I've had more than one person come up
and go, that's the most important slide you gave all day.
Which may speak to the other slides too,
but at least it's that piece of it.
We're humans and we have to be humans
and we have to be humans around others.
And that means more than just internal audit.
Excellent. So what's next for Mike Jacka?
(24:25):
Well, let's see. I'm gonna New York in June
because my wife and I love Broadway actually.
So I did this whole retirement thing.
And then next thing I know, I get a contact from
training department and they need somebody to, uh,
co-facilitate New York.
In December, my wife said,
you do not turn down December jobs
because we love gonna Broadway.
So, you know, it's not like all that is gonna end.
I'll still be doing stuff that you and I have discussed.
(24:46):
The fact that, yeah, feel free to send you guys things,
real articles, new blog posts, whatever, tickles my brain
and makes something weird come out.
So, I mean, that's a piece of it,
but there's just a lot of stuff.
I, I have joked about writing
and so, you know, I'm working with some ideas.
I, I still write a lot whether it's worth anything
or not, that's another thing entirely.
But fiction type things, music's
(25:07):
still a big part of what I do.
Um, I put myself through college two different times,
playing a country rock band.
My favorite thing is song parodies, by the way.
Don't go answer Waterfall.
That'll make the blog go on too long. Yeah.
So the music part is still a piece of it.
Our band is having gonna have its 50th
anniversary, so we're still playing.
(25:28):
Disneyland will be a part of it. Again, I'm turning 70.
I, as you know, Ann,
I was born the day Disneyland opened
literally day, date and year.
But for my 70th birthday, we'll go
to Disneyland's 70th birthday.
I still like to travel a lot. I don't know.
I'll make it up as I go along. That's been my entire career.
Make it up and dumb luck.
Thank you very much for talking with me
and con seriously, congratulations on 900 blog post.
(25:51):
That's incredible.
Yeah, it's, you know, I,
I think I make made the comment in the post.
How did you get to 900? Well, I started with 899.
It was easy. Yeah, it just happens.
So I just wanna point out,
readers can read Mike's final blog post titled 900 Posts.
Now What on internal auditor.org. Now thanks again, Mike.
(26:15):
Oh, thank you. It's fun.
If you like this podcast, please subscribe and rate us.
You can subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
You can also catch other episodes on YouTube or@theiia.org.
That's TH iia.org. A g.
Hi, I am Anne Millage,
content director at the I I A Welcome
to the All Things Internal Audit podcast.
Today we have a special episode as we say goodbye
to an iconic blog in the internal audit
community, the Mind of Jacka.
After 16 years and 900 posts, Mike Jacka, the blog's founder
and longtime author, is Stepping Away.
(00:22):
Mike is a true veteran of the internal audit profession,
known for his expert knowledge, insightful commentary,
and of course his signature humor
that has made his writing stand out for so many years.
In this episode, I'm thrilled to sit down
with my longtime friend to discuss his journey,
why he's decided it's time to bring the blog to an end
and what the future holds.
So grab your headphones
(00:43):
and join us as we dive into a conversation about Mike's
incredible blog adventure, filled with wisdom, laughs,
and of course, some great stories from
the world of internal auditing. Hi, Mike.
Hello. How are you?
Fine. How are you, Anne?
I'm fine. I was trying to remember
how long we've known each other.
(01:03):
I seriously don't remember the first time we met. Do you? I
Mean, I know it was before you were married
because at one point I got an edit on, I believe,
a blog post or an article,
and I said, oh, who is this person?
And I sent this very nice email,
and then later I realized it was you.
And I told you, oh, I'd have been much meaner
in the email if I'd have known it.
I do remember that. Okay.
(01:25):
So after 900 blog posts, you're finally running outta words.
Oh, no. Just ask my family.
I don't need to. Um, what made you decide
to end the Minda jacket after 900
Posts? Um,
900 was a good round number.
I've been thinking about it earlier.
I kept calling it semi-retired
because I quit working with Farmer's Insurance about 12
(01:47):
years ago and was doing this semi full-time,
doing the training, doing the speaking,
and doing the writing.
And, um, I just found myself thinking,
what else do I wanna do?
And which other directions do I wanna go?
And there was an interesting thing too.
I started feeling like I was repeating myself, which,
you know, at 900 you probably are, which kind
(02:08):
of raised questions in my mind.
One, then why are people paying attention
to why do I repeat myself?
And is anybody listening? That would be the number three.
So it was just seeing the right time based on, eh,
what's going on with everything.
And no, I, it times out Nice.
I'm also turning 70 July,
so all these nice round numbers come
(02:29):
Together.
So, question just from me specifically,
have you ever had a thought about a post
that you didn't include in the first draft of the article?
So what you know is because,
and I used to also have the, uh, column in the magazine,
which I think you gave me 300 words or something.
(02:50):
I mean, it takes me that long to say hello.
And I worked with, uh, David Erno at that time. Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I told him, look, I started about 3000 words
and then I have to cut it down.
And the blog post is very much that way.
And it's not necessarily, I try
and keep the basic thoughts, the basic ideas.
It's the fluff andross around it that I've gotta decide
(03:11):
what is important, what isn't rearranging it.
It is an interesting thing, you know, it's,
it's like the old line.
This letter would've been shorter if I'd had the time
From the very beginning.
And I just added in here of time,
you brought a much needed humorous slant, um,
to both your articles
and your blogs, you know, starting
with on the lighter side in the magazine, um,
(03:31):
and continuing with IA humor and the minder jack of blogs.
So, you know, often your humor is a hit,
but every once in a while, I guess my question is
how do I get to audit land?
And then how did you know there was a fly on your head?
Wow, we're going, jugular aren't, well,
the land one is a, is a hoot.
(03:53):
That's it up.
So I would write these pieces when I was doing the pure
humor ones, and I'll go back to one of the other comments.
When we first talked about this,
I submitted three different ideas to the, uh, committee
to see if they thought it was worth it.
One person wrote back, these two are
funny, but this one's insulting.
Somebody else wrote back and said, well, this first one is
insulting and the next two are funny.
The next ones, the next person said, none of 'em are funny.
(04:15):
And the last person said, they're all hilarious.
And I think I talked to you at
that point and said, get ready.
This will be the response you're seeing the range of it.
And so I'm gonna sidetrack from yours.
One of my favorites was I did, uh,
auditing carol's Christmas carols that were auditing based.
We got a couple of people who said, oh,
they're just reinforcing the stereotypes of the whole.
And it's like, that's the humor folks.
(04:36):
That's the part that's supposed to be funny.
Again, if this, if the profession takes itself too
seriously, it's in as much trouble as anything.
But, uh, to your point, I wrote one about audit land
and I made a comment, it was about how the IA was going
to build an amusement park.
I said, the only people that'll get all these jokes,
there's about five people in
the world that'll get all the jokes.
Because it was in jokes about audit
and in jokes about Disneyland.
(04:58):
Then you guys got a question from somebody,
a legitimate question, when was it gonna open?
And how did they get there?
And you fired that to me
and said, can you come up with a response for them?
Expertly, expertly dodging the issue.
And so I wrote back, you know,
I really appreciate when people understand the humor
(05:18):
and, you know, come, you know, and trying
to give them the benefit of the doubt on it.
And I believe a year later, the gentleman was on a tour
and actually again, legitimately asked you guys
what was going on with audio.
Yeah. You've taken you seriously
And you have to explain the fly.
I'm sorry that was you.
Well, I think, you know, your column was so unique.
(05:40):
You are so unique, um, to anything else
that's in the magazine, we had
to add something special to it.
And the fly on the head to us was just funny.
And, you know, it was just the right touch. But we did, I
Thought it was, I thought it was hilarious.
And you know, it's one of those
where people would go, why a fly?
And it's almost like, well, if you have
to ask it, you don't need it.
Yeah. So, yeah.
(06:00):
And we got a question from somebody, somebody who read it,
who said, you know, do you know he has a fly on his head?
So then when I would, my last day on the committee,
you guys had a nice cake
with my picture and a fly on its head.
I remember that. Yeah.
You know, one of the most popular posts that you did,
it was actually recently was Get Off My Lawn. Um,
Popular being a relative term, the one
(06:22):
that was most viewed and commented on.
Is that a better way to put that?
Yeah, well, no, I think it, I think it was,
yeah, that's a better way to put it.
But people really, um, got into it
and wanted to comment on it and,
and it even spawned a, um, a follow up post by someone else.
So, um, yeah, I received 48 comments.
Um, a lot of conversation.
(06:42):
You were, you were saying like, a grumpy old man,
get off my lawn, that remote auditing does not work.
And people had a lot of opinions about that.
Why do you think this one created such a sensation?
Well, for one, I did take the pendulum all the way over.
Very often I try and take, you know, both sides
of the story a little bit like that.
And this one, I just went all the way with it
(07:04):
and kind of the way I feel about it too.
So I think that's why. So that people
were more active at attack about what they were seeing.
And some liked it a lot didn't like it.
And in my mind, I don't know, that whole discussion
of working from home, as you may know,
some people may know you try and raise your kids, right?
(07:24):
But my son became an internal auditor, so what could you do?
And he and I, again, this weekend we're having this very
discussion about how do you work from home?
If you're an internal auditor, how do you do it part-time?
And because right now you're seeing more
and more companies trying to bring people back in.
Okay, that's a tough, tough shift for people
who are suddenly used to the other way.
(07:45):
You're doing it all saying that at the end
of the conversation with my son,
I said, I've gotta be honest with you.
I don't know. I've never had to work in it.
I just know what worked for me.
And so I think again, that,
that it is an active discussion going on right now.
And I think that's why people jumped on it.
It's something a lot of people have very well based on my
son, they're very serious about their feelings
(08:06):
on that subject.
Is your, did you say, is your son working from home or,
Uh, he is currently three days in the
office and two days at home.
So, you know, it's hybrid like most people are.
I don't even like hybrid, but again, I'm an old man.
What can I say? I, you know, I, what I grew up in
and grew up in, in internal audit with Farmer's Insurance.
We were in the office and everybody was in the office,
(08:27):
but we had a very, I'll go
with popular internal audit department.
People would just come and talk to us.
That doesn't happen if you're not sitting your desk.
People don't call up and say, Hey,
let's have a Zoom call and just chat.
You know, when you walk into somebody's office
and you, well, okay, so I had a meeting
with somebody recently, uh, with the city council,
and I went in and the first thing I noticed on the side,
(08:48):
there was a shovel, but it had a guitar neck as the handle
instantly started, say, what's going,
what it is was from the groundbreaking, I think of a Gibson,
Gibson or Fender, I can't remember, factory in town.
Well, that's the kind of thing
that happens when you're in person, not on the phone.
You know, you start saying, oh, what's that?
Hey, let's talk. And you're, you're starting
to make connections, which is so fundamental to the success
(09:09):
of any internal audit department.
So you got me going. It doesn't take much.
Now I get people writing in about this.
So we've mentioned a couple of your, um, your popular ones
or most commented on ones.
What are the ones that are your favorites and why?
Few of them. Just a few of them. Yeah. I know.
I, you know, I'll be honest with you, I,
(09:31):
that's an off the top of the head.
I cannot think of anything I like when I'm done.
And I, my final run
through on these things is to read 'em out loud.
Just a habit I picked up a long time ago.
And when I'm done, if I get to that last line
and I go, yeah, that was it, then I've done what I like.
Um, you know, the, the long one was great just
(09:51):
because of the discussion it had.
I like any of the humor ones I threw in there.
'cause that's just me, haven't written many
of those in a very long time.
But those can be hilarious.
Uh, I just have so much fun writing them.
But other topics, well, I'll tell you an interesting one.
Uh, this will go back a number of years
because it was the beginning of social media
and I put a couple of posts out about,
(10:11):
I suddenly figured out, I've told this story of places
before, but my kids went to Comic-Con all the time.
My daughter goes to Comic-Con, comes back, she's real upset.
This is a lot of years ago, obviously.
And I said, what's up?
She goes, well, Warner Brothers had this thing,
and if you were following them on one of the,
I may have even been before Twitter, then if you went
to this room, you got a bunch of swag.
(10:32):
And she didn't realize it. Something
about that resonated with me.
And I went, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Social media is more than narcissistic naval gazing.
It's more than listing what you had for breakfast.
It was a real thing.
And so I actually did two
or three posts on the subject, uh,
just 'cause it was brand new.
Nobody else was doing it.
It turned out Farmer's Insurance, I think was one
of the first audit departments
(10:53):
to do a full social media audit within the organization
because we got the jump on it.
But for me, it led to a lot of other things.
But more importantly, it was that opportunity to,
opportunity to get the word out
and say, Hey, here's something big going on.
Pay attention. And as we all know now, it was a big thing.
I just lucked into it from the get go.
And the other part was, I, I did do training on it.
(11:14):
The interesting thing about doing
that training was I told people, look, there,
I'm not gonna be able to tell you that much,
but you're still gonna know more than
99% of the people in your company.
It's kinda like with AI now, right?
Yes. That, well, I'll tell you, that was another fun one
because it, the response to it, so I can't remember,
I threw into chatt PT something simple like gimme an,
(11:35):
gimme an audit report of, uh, accounts receivable
or accounts payable, one or the other, and it spit it out.
And so the whole post was basically that.
But I ended it with the point that,
is this any different than what you're writing right now?
You know, it looked like the bad audit
reports I've seen forever.
And so, you know, again, one more time, we can be replaced.
(11:56):
And that was the, the point of it.
And that's what we all know about ai.
Now we can be replaced if we aren't doing more
than what a computer can do.
I thought I'd try and make some real points
while we had this discussion.
That's the need for a good editor. Right.
One thing you and I do share in common,
this is very serious, is we both have a very strong dislike
(12:18):
for the word utilize.
So I'd love to know,
what are some other words that make you cringe?
Uh, cringe. No. Um, well, obviously mute point.
That's, that's just one that will drive me crazy.
Not using the Oxford comma will drive me crazy.
Oh, not, not supposed to go down that road, are we?
(12:38):
Um, oh God. You know, that, that's one of the big ones.
The bigger one. I,
we won't go into news too much other than the fact
that news readers really should read what they're gonna say
before it comes up.
I we're going down a different road, for example,
just recently, uh,
a newscaster here in Phoenix was talking about Belarus
and she called it Ris mispronunciations of things
(13:01):
that you're supposed to know that in general,
mispronunciations will drive me crazy.
Um, there's certain phrases, it'll be what it'll be,
you know, I know it'll be okay, let's go.
I mean, use judiciously. It's okay.
Not utilize judiciously, but used judiciously.
Um, you know, cliches and, and trust me, I live
(13:23):
and die on cliches.
One of the things I used to try
and watch for when I was writing was when I used a cliche
and if nothing else turned it into an audit one, you know,
like get our ducks in a row.
You just simply say, get our mechanical pencils in a row.
Something like that. You know,
Change it up.
Okay, now I'm gonna get a little more serious.
So you've helped the magazine, you know, with our,
(13:44):
as we were talking about earlier with our editorial content,
as far back as I can remember, as a writer,
as a committee member, as a member
of the magazine's editorial advisory board,
what first drew you, I guess to the i i a
and to the magazine specifically into its committees?
Just the love of writing or was
There Well, we'll start with the i i a
(14:05):
and just so everybody knows how long ago we're talking,
I started working in internal audit in 83
and uh, at Farmers we were getting the magazine.
So I was seeing the magazine and I saw the certification.
And so I actually was one
of the first people in Farmer's Insurance.
Not the first, but one of the first
to get the designation by taking the test.
(14:26):
Most everybody else who had it had grandfathered in.
So I continued to read the magazine,
I was learning the information from it.
So it became, right off the bat, it became a great resource
for a new auditor to find out
what was going on in the world.
Then, I mean, I just writing something
that I've always wanted to do.
One of these days I'm gonna get something published in a
science fiction magazine, fingers crossed.
(14:48):
But I've always kind of written it things.
And so there was something that came up
and I thought, hey, let's give this a shot.
So I sent it to the magazine
and that was Anne Graham was the editor then.
Did you ever work with Anne?
I know, I mean it may have been a short time, but
No, but I've heard wonderful things about her. Yeah.
Anybody who worked with her absolutely fantastic.
And part of the reason the magazine is as was as good
(15:11):
as it was when you were able to be involved to take it
to higher levels, thought I'd do that for you.
Um, but I got back one
of the nicest rejection letters you ever saw in your life.
And it was great. And it would,
it drove me to want to do more.
And I think my second or third one
got accepted or something like that.
Okay, so you ask for the back
of the story, you're gonna get the whole story. They
(15:32):
Won It here. Arizona
State University has a western branch, a SU West.
And so we started talking to them about internships
and some people out there when they remember Stanley Chang,
he was very active in the I I a, um,
and he was one of the professors there.
He said, oh, you submitted something? I said, yes.
And he said, Hey, lemme do this.
And he put me on the committee. Next thing I know,
(15:54):
he's nominated me for the committee and I'm knee deep in it.
And so, alright, that's fine, you get into it.
But right off the bat, interesting group
of characters, A lot of fun.
A lot of those early days had some interesting people,
I won't use their names out loud,
but you know, the battles I'm talking about
Anne, that were going on.
And so it just grew from that.
So the more I got involved, the more I got back,
(16:17):
the more fun it was, the more interesting it was.
Got into the training aspect of it,
actually pub published a couple of books through the I i a,
it was just all, you know, it meshed perfectly with what
as a professional I was trying to do.
So as you've mentioned, you've been in the profession
for many, many years and you've written a lot about it.
Um, what have you seen
(16:38):
as the cha the profession's biggest challenges?
And then what are you, what are your thoughts on
where the profession is today? Two big questions.
Yeah. I think the biggest challenge, oh,
lemme go down an interesting road.
We are seen as the secondary to the accounting world.
We are perceived that way.
People go get an accounting degree
and oh, I guess I'll wind up an internal audit.
(16:59):
And it is a mindset that's out there.
There's a lot that don't.
I had an auditor working for me who actually went to school
to become an internal auditor.
I used to pick on him mercilessly for that.
But we still have that image issue
and we still have a lot of auditors
that are ticking in tying, we still have a lot of auditors
who are doing old school work.
I could even get off on a rant about socks right now,
(17:20):
but I'm not gonna do that
because we get stuck in our old ways.
And I talk about that creativity
and that ability to do that.
That's how we get out of it.
I think the biggest challenge has always been for us
to be seen as more than accountants, more than just
suppliers of information, but to, you know, we, we used
to talk about being a major partner.
(17:40):
You know, it's almost being on the right hand of the CEO.
That role is so important for us to try and get up.
I see also,
and this may be related to it, we are not fast adapters
and I'll use ai, I'll use data analysis, all of that.
I've been to a lot of, lot of conferences
(18:01):
where they talk about, you know, wow,
we need to do this in data analytics.
We need to do this in cats. We need to do this.
I would guess that 20% of what people talk about trying
to accomplish, they actually do.
I got busy with an audit. I got busy with this.
It's about refocusing on the important things I made up
to 20%, by the way, I dunno.
I mean, so that's the challenge. Now, keep in mind,
(18:21):
having been in this profession this long,
the changes I've seen have been phenomenal.
I mean, when I started in audit, we used
to write an audit report and here's what's wrong, bye.
And we were out. You know, now we work,
most audit departments work consultatively, but a real word.
Sure. Why not with the client to come up with solutions
that really will make a difference.
(18:42):
We used to say, you got 63 files wrong. Talk to you later.
Now it's okay. Why? What's the process? What's happening?
Not just that they're wrong. So right off the bat,
that's just been so huge for us
and part of why we do have value,
why we haven't just been thrown into the dustbin of history.
We're able to do those kinds of things.
And so, you know, we just, we talked a second ago about ai,
(19:04):
how are we gonna adapt it?
How are we gonna adapt robotics?
How are we gonna adapt all
these things that we're talking about.
And that needs to happen to continue that forward thrust
that, you know, I've seen over 30 years.
Okay, so the editor of the magazine, um,
Tim McCollum had wanted me to ask you this question.
Well, no, He said, you know,
we all know you're a big Disney fan.
(19:25):
Mm-hmm. So if you were gonna send the Disney imagineers
to reimagine the profession, what would you want them to do?
Wow. You don't know what a wheelhouse you hit here
we were having, you know me, you ask a question,
I go somewhere else with it, right?
We were having at farmer's insurance discussions about what
(19:45):
to do with internal audit and how to make a difference.
And I was on the, the shuttle at LAX
and y'all, any of you have been to LAX, you know
how exciting that can be.
And a bus went by, that was a Disney bus.
And I thought, man, you know, that would be fun.
And then suddenly it hit me, how do we make working
with internal audit like Disneyland?
And that became the thrust of all our meetings.
(20:07):
We had 10 regional offices, we had separate meetings,
you know, we went out and visited them all.
And that was the thrust of our conversation.
How do we make it like going to Disneyland?
What would imagineers do with it?
Well, first off, they'd probably come up
with an audio animatronic, CAE.
But besides that, um, you know,
I think that's where they would focus.
Disney is about experience
(20:29):
and it's about immersive experience.
You know, you walk past, you take Disneyland,
you walk past the berm, and suddenly you're immersed.
You're not in the world, you're on Main Street
or you're in Tomorrowland or you're in whatever one.
The rides are very immersive.
You go on the new Star Wars rides,
you are in the middle of it all.
Okay, how do we make an immersive experience?
They would try and make immer an immersive experience
(20:51):
where people suddenly are in somewhere they wanna be.
And that, again, struck, that speaks to
what are internal auditors doing
that will make things better
and different for the organization.
I like to think we came as close as anybody could
at Phoenix at the Farmer's Audit Department
because once a year we'd have an open house.
And by the way, if you give people free
(21:12):
food, they will show up.
Trust me, you can do an internal audit department.
But people would come in
and they were suddenly in this internal audit department.
We had a very weird one as you, you know, a little bit like
what you could see behind me on the screen here.
Oh, I'm sorry. They can't, you can see. And, um,
Othered messy.
Yeah, I know. They became, you know,
they were seeing the experience
of being a part of internal audit.
(21:34):
So the immersive experience is the part.
And so I think it's important
for audit departments, auditors, anybody.
What do you think that immersive experience should be?
What is the experience that customer should have?
One of the fascinating things that I did in some training
with some people was to go through
and talk about what the customer wants and needs.
And I said, wait a minute.
Your internal audit though, this isn't your organization.
(21:56):
What do your clients expect at the end of this?
What do they want at the end of it?
And most internal auditors that makes their heads hurt.
They do not think in terms of what is success
to the client other than getting you out of their office.
Right. And so, I mean, I think
that's where it all needs to go.
The audit, the audit departments need to take,
spend the time, drop one audit, what's gonna happen
(22:19):
to the world when you don't do that petty cash audit.
Drop that audit and spend the time exploring
what you are doing and how the customers care,
the clients care, and which direction you need to go
to get to that point.
And with that, I'll get off my pulpit. Go ahead.
That's great answer. So what would your advice be
for other internal auditors about writing
(22:39):
or about following their passions?
Um, in the writing aspect of it, I've,
I've actually told a couple of the people this,
about articles about presenting.
Very often you think everybody already knows what you know,
and there's a good chance they don't, uh,
or they don't know it the way you do
or the spin you have on it.
So take a swing at it now. I know.
(23:01):
Um, I'm real big about,
I'll just write it and see what happens.
And I know a lot of people can't do that.
They're better off working with the outline
and I know the magazine will work closely
with them if they're given an outline to work from.
But, um, I ultimately, that's it.
You think you got a good idea enough
to put together an article
and flesh it out and talk about it?
I will say that one of the big things that's important for
(23:21):
so much of the writing is
as much practical as you can get into it.
You know, there's a,
that's one of the problems I always have.
I have a lot of great
theories, but what does it really mean?
And do I have proof it works?
So there's that, that's goes on.
But there's part two,
which is follow your passion to that whole thing.
And for my, in my case, the passion aligned with
what was going on with internal audit.
(23:42):
But you gotta find what's fun. Yeah. What is it you enjoy?
What are you doing? Maybe it'll work in with it.
Maybe it won't. It's also about working your brain
and doing different things with your
brain than just internal audit.
Again, to that, making those connections
or whichever way you go, that's huge in
allowing yourself the flexibility to just be a human being.
(24:03):
One of the things, I have a slide in one of my presentations
that says, simply be a human being.
And I've had more than one person come up
and go, that's the most important slide you gave all day.
Which may speak to the other slides too,
but at least it's that piece of it.
We're humans and we have to be humans
and we have to be humans around others.
And that means more than just internal audit.
Excellent. So what's next for Mike Jacka?
(24:25):
Well, let's see. I'm gonna New York in June
because my wife and I love Broadway actually.
So I did this whole retirement thing.
And then next thing I know, I get a contact from
training department and they need somebody to, uh,
co-facilitate New York.
In December, my wife said,
you do not turn down December jobs
because we love gonna Broadway.
So, you know, it's not like all that is gonna end.
I'll still be doing stuff that you and I have discussed.
(24:46):
The fact that, yeah, feel free to send you guys things,
real articles, new blog posts, whatever, tickles my brain
and makes something weird come out.
So, I mean, that's a piece of it,
but there's just a lot of stuff.
I, I have joked about writing
and so, you know, I'm working with some ideas.
I, I still write a lot whether it's worth anything
or not, that's another thing entirely.
But fiction type things, music's
(25:07):
still a big part of what I do.
Um, I put myself through college two different times,
playing a country rock band.
My favorite thing is song parodies, by the way.
Don't go answer Waterfall.
That'll make the blog go on too long. Yeah.
So the music part is still a piece of it.
Our band is having gonna have its 50th
anniversary, so we're still playing.
(25:28):
Disneyland will be a part of it. Again, I'm turning 70.
I, as you know, Ann,
I was born the day Disneyland opened
literally day, date and year.
But for my 70th birthday, we'll go
to Disneyland's 70th birthday.
I still like to travel a lot. I don't know.
I'll make it up as I go along. That's been my entire career.
Make it up and dumb luck.
Thank you very much for talking with me
and con seriously, congratulations on 900 blog post.
(25:51):
That's incredible.
Yeah, it's, you know, I,
I think I make made the comment in the post.
How did you get to 900? Well, I started with 899.
It was easy. Yeah, it just happens.
So I just wanna point out,
readers can read Mike's final blog post titled 900 Posts.
Now What on internal auditor.org. Now thanks again, Mike.
(26:15):
Oh, thank you. It's fun.
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You can subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
You can also catch other episodes on YouTube or@theiia.org.
That's TH iia.org. A g.
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