June 12, 2024 • 40 mins
We’re excited to bring you another gripping episode of All Things Wildfire, where we dive deep into the world of wildfire mitigation and mental health in firefighting. This week, host OP Almaraz is joined by Steve Orr, a seasoned firefighter and paramedic with decades of frontline experience. Tune in to discover transformative insights and actionable strategies to protect both your property and your well-being.
Joining us today is a seasoned veteran in the field, with over 22 years at West Metro Fire Rescue in Lakewood, Colorado. As a firefighter, lieutenant, paramedic, and wildfire mitigation specialist, our guest brings a wealth of experience. He holds numerous NWCG qualifications and has been actively involved in wildfire assignments across the Western US for the past 15 years. A committed member of both the Fire Adapted Communities Learning Network and Fire Adapted Colorado, he has also contributed as a Training and Network Specialist for FACO. During this tenure, he served on the Community Mitigation Assistance Team and as an instructor for Community Wildfire Mitigation Best Practices. Currently, he is enhancing community safety as a Community Risk Reduction Specialist with Boulder Fire-Rescue. Sit back, relax, and arm yourself with knowledge as we explore how to safeguard against disaster with our expert guest.
Wildfire Experiences and Lessons:
Steve discusses his firsthand experiences with destructive fires, such as the Black Forest fire in 2013 and the High Park fire in 2012. These experiences deeply influenced his interest in wildfire mitigation and the implementation of strategies to protect communities from similar disasters.
Wildfire Mitigation Strategies:
Steve details various strategies and practices adopted over the years, such as managing wildland training and equipment, emphasizing the importance of noncombustible building materials, and improving community awareness and preparedness. He highlights significant challenges and successes in altering community and firefighter perceptions regarding wildfire risks.
Financial Support and Industry Collaboration:
The episode touches on the availability of grants and financial support for homeowners looking to make their properties more defensible against wildfires. Steve also discusses collaborations with various industry groups to align mitigation strategies and insurance policies.
Mental Health in Firefighting:
A substantial part of the conversation is devoted to discussing the psychological impact of firefighting and witnessing destruction, emphasizing the importance of mental health support for first responders. Steve shares his personal experiences with PTSD, underlining the evolving understanding and destigmatization of mental health issues within the firefighting community.
Highlights:
- Steve Orr's extensive experience with wildland and urban firefighting and his transition into focusing on wildfire mitigation.
- Discussion on the use of non-combustible materials in home construction and la
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the All ThingsWildfire podcast, where we delve into
the latest trends and hot topicsin protecting properties against wildfire.
So sit back, relax and join us as we arm
you against disaster.
(00:50):
Absolutely.
And I really appreciate the opportunity.
I've really been enjoying the the podcast.
So, thanks for having me.And thanks for having the podcast.
Great conversations.
Yeah.
(01:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I startedmy, fire service career in 1999,
with West Metro FireRescue in Lakewood, Wheat
Ridge, Morris in Colorado,which is basically the west southwest,
suburbs, edge of the city, butts up
(01:47):
to the foothills,here in the Front Range.
I worked as a firefighter paramedic.
I was with them for 22 years.
I spent quite a bit of time,
on the ambulance early on my in my careeras a paramedic field instructor.
we we they all say we sometimes in Vegas.
I'm no longer with West Metro, but,we have ALS.
(02:11):
ambulances.
And that was a big part of,it was really our bread and butter.
70 to 80% of our calls were medical calls,just like many,
of the suburbanfire departments across the country.
yeah.
And, but then I got really involved,with the wildland fire program.
(02:31):
I think the first fire's timethat I went on was the,
I can't remember the name of the fire now,but it was in, in Wyoming.
I went out on a type six engine,I think this was 2005 or 2006,
and just really, enjoyed the,the experience.
and it just really was, a part offirefighting that really appealed to me.
(02:55):
just my background as an outdoorsperson and,
and mapping and, and just some of thosedifferent challenges.
so I worked mostly out of our,station nine,
which was our wildland, hub,where we did, a lot of the training.
We're responsiblefor all the training, for our department.
a lot of the equipment,we manage the fire assignments,
(03:19):
a lot of different things.
And we really were runninga wildland division out of that station.
so, it grew a lot over the years.
And one of the things that,
I started getting interestedin was wildfire mitigation.
And that was a result of going on,a couple of fires
in 2012 and 2013that were really destructive,
(03:42):
in here in Colorado.
And one was the Black Forest fire in 2013outside of Colorado Springs.
The other was the High Park fire in 2012,
outside of Fort Collins.
And then right during that time,the Waldo Canyon Fire occurred,
which was a fire that was,in the forest west of Colorado Springs
(04:03):
and ended up, getting into the community
and destroying 500 plus homes,you know, residential community.
so, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
(04:29):
Yeah.
Great question.
And, seeing homesdestroyed is really, sobering.
You know,we see a lot of different, images.
we see all images all the time,you know, with, with all the technology
(04:50):
and the screens, but to stand amongst,
smoking foundations,as I say, and seeing,
just the absolute destruction of a home.
And then there's a visceral,
it's a visceral experience,and there's a, smell as well.
But one of the
a lot of different senses involved,and it really, like, stuck with me.
(05:11):
and one of the,
(05:34):
It's, it's devastating.
You know, it's,it's really hard to put into words, and
I think that it affects firefightersas well.
like I said, just walking through,
are sifting through the, the ruins of the house.
We're not necessarily, doing the restoration kind of stuff.
You do, but just putting out hotspotsand there's, parts
(05:57):
of, furniture or, different possessions
that are either completely turned to ashor, again, partially destroyed.
And it's just, it's a wow.
It's a really a wow experience.
and I think the one of the biggest thingsthat impacted me,
during the Black Forestfire is that, on the first day
(06:21):
we arrived, it was, pretty extremefire behavior in the, canopy.
So like an active brown firethat moved through the community
and destroyed quite a few homes.
one of the
things that really impacted mewas the following day,
you know, so, like, 24 hoursafter the fire front has passed,
there were homes that were ignitingand burning.
(06:41):
And the concept that we had been teaching
is, or learning aboutwas that it's not just the fire front,
but it can be, embers, of course,traveling some distance
in front of the fire,but also, low intensity,
surface fire after the fire front
that is creeping and could ignite a partof the structure that then destroyed.
(07:04):
So seeing homes go up 24 hoursafter the fire front passed was really,
I'd say shocking, but like, it
hit home those lessons, and those things that we had taught.
And then there was one part of thatcommunity that was newer, that had
that, was the homes were built out of,
(07:24):
more noncombustible materials.
And only one home in this,
covenant enclave.
The smaller community was destroyedand we saw, so,
yeah, a lot of those pieces, came togetherduring that.
those experiences.
And then I think the key thingwas when I went back to,
our districtand I started looking around,
(07:47):
especially on that western edge of the,those communities,
the conditionslook really similar to those,
in those other fires that had,
had massive destruction.
And what I realizedis that we needed to do
some work to raise awarenessabout the wildfire risk,
(08:08):
and we needed to start workingwith residents to make those changes,
and start mitigatingand preparing for, wildfire.
I think the sentimentwas these large destructive fires
that happens in California.
And then when those fires occurred,right along the frontrillionange,
(08:32):
we use the term Wake-Up call,
but people have a short memory.
So you can kind of get some momentumright after those fires.
But then if we don't have continuingdestructive fires,
which we didn't have as many,for another 6 or 7 years,
it kind of went back to or that'sa problem that happens in the mountains,
(08:57):
that happens in the forested areasor again,
that just happens in Colorado or,excuse me, California.
So it was hard to sustain momentumand really get people, including people,
in our department, you know, peoplethat do suppression to really recognize,
the risk and the potential.
(09:19):
And then what can we we do about it?
So, but.
Yeah.
(09:39):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
(10:06):
Right.
Yeah.
(10:40):
Yes. For sure.
all along, you know these communitiesthat we're talking about.
Denver, Colorado Springs, FortCollins, Boulder
were all positioned at basicallythe western edge of the Great Plains.
We are on the edge of where the GreatPlains meet, the Rocky Mountains.
And so the predominant fuel type is grass
(11:03):
all along.
again, this frontrillionange,I think we all knew
that a, wind driven grass fire,
which is a very common, type of incident,especially in the fall
when the grass fall through the spring,when the grass, is dry.
you know, it's cured out.
And if there's not snow on the ground,we also get, significant winds.
(11:29):
the Marshall fire was a,somewhat extraordinary wind event.
but we commonly get, wind events
that are in the 30 to 40 milean hour range with gusts to 50 or 60.
So we knew that a wind drivengrass fire would impact,
a community in, along the front lines.
(11:49):
I don't think anyone thought that1100 structures would be destroyed, but,
it was really
an eye opening experience, for many of usthat, yes,
it can happen here in the grasslands and,
and, well, what can we do about it? So
there's been a lot of,emphasis on grasslands management.
(12:14):
as a piece of the puzzle.
And so some of the folks, in this industryhave been working with some of the
other folks from the Great PlainsFire Science Exchange, that have done
a lot more work and research into,grassland fires and, and management.
so we're looking at what are thedifferent options, whether it be grazing,
(12:38):
sheep, cattle, prescribed fire, of course.
mowing, different types of, treatments.
And what can we do on a fuels managementstandpoint that
not only is going to reduce the fire risk,but we also have to
these lands are being managedfor recreation,
esthetics, wildlife.
(12:58):
And so there's just somecompeting interests, but there's a lot of,
attention and efforts
on, trying to better manage,the fuels component,
but then the home ignition zone piece, that's one of the other
one of the pieces of the puzzlethat we're really emphasizing,
(13:18):
our department,because there are things that people
can doto prevent their homes from igniting.
one of the big thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
(14:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
And a lot of this goes back to the work
of doctor Jack Cohen,who you probably are familiar with.
the groundbreaking researchthat he did in the 90s,
actually, and,you know, over the last several decades.
and then, of course, a lot of,
there's been a lot more casestudies, many of which are,
(14:26):
from California, of course.
And then all the laboratory studiesthat have been going on with IBS,
excuse me in courtor should be Nest and others,
we have some really good information about
how homes ignite during wildfiresand what people can do
to modify their home and their property,to reduce the risk of that occurring.
(14:50):
so we really try to focus
on, science based proven methods.
So I'll talk about the Marshall Fire.
one of the thingsthat was really a significant contributor
to, home ignitions and, firespread was wooden fences.
some of which really ignited. And,
(15:12):
a lot of
pathway directly to homeswhere homes ignited.
and then also those cedar, wood
fences are a great source of embersthat travel downwind.
So the best practice
would be to not have,a combustible fence at all.
So there's a varietyof different materials.
(15:33):
And that industry,I think, is really going to grow
as far as some metal options.
For instance, there's just, a lot ofpeople building cedar picket fences.
That's kind of the most common.
But if you can you, you know,
change your fence to have anoncombustible fence, that's really great.
But if you can't afford that or don'tyou know that's not part of your budget,
(15:56):
you know,the studies and others have shown
that if you replace the final,we say five feet.
Now nested is recommendeight feet, the last eight foot section
that's attached to your housewith something noncombustible
that goes a long way towardspreventing your,
home from igniting, roofs.
the use of shingle roofs were outlawed,
(16:18):
for lack of a betterterm, decades ago here in Boulder.
we're
seeing vulnerabilities with wood siding.
in some cases,there is still cedar shakes
siding on some of the homesthat were built in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
So, replacing your sidingwith noncombustible
materialssuch as cement, fiberboard is is huge.
(16:41):
But and we also have the message of
if you can't replace your,all of the siding in your home,
if you replace the lowest six inches,I think think that's the standard.
although I think this is sayingmaybe up to 24in, but
so at least the bottom six inchesshould be noncombustible.
that goes a long ways for preventing,ignitions from embers and,
(17:06):
things that, accumulate at the base of,the walls.
And then,we see a lot of wood decks and those sorts
of when they're ground level,it can be hard to clean underneath them.
so enclosing the underside of your deck,keeping,
keeping the deck underneath the deck cleanbecause those are the spots where,
(17:30):
leaves and needles accumulate.
And then also in those junctionswhere you have a deck,
connected to, again, combustible siding.
That's whereall the needles and leaves accumulate.
So if you can keep that cleanat a minimum, which doesn't cost anything
or replace those materials,
or what can you do to preventthat deck from igniting, you know,
(17:53):
around the perimeter and having nothingcombustible within the first five feet.
all of those are really thethe things we're seeing the most of,
as far as the recommendationswe're making, in terms of,
of course. Thank you.
Thank you. Yes, absolutely.
SOF advance, are pretty common here.
(18:16):
we do see some, gable and vents
and then, of course, the roof vents that are the outflow vents.
We absolutely suggest that you either useone eight inch or finer,
mesh screening, because that is startingto evolve a little bit.
We used to say one eighth, but one eighth
or finer, or, of course, the flameand ember resistant vents.
(18:38):
or another great option.
So depending on one's budget, what arethe other recommendations we're making?
We try to prioritize to help peopleprioritize because we know that people,
may or may not have an unlimited budgetto do all those things, but
we. Yeah.
(19:00):
No. Nope.
Go ahead.
Yep. Thank you.
(19:57):
Yeah.
(20:54):
Yeah.
I was going to say,
one thing in terms of,
financial support of the state of Colorado
does have a,
defensible space and home hardening,
grant program.
it's a pilot program.
so we're we're giving it a try.
(21:17):
It wasn't funded at a super high levelthis year, but the hope is that,
they will be able to show, some positive outcomes and
and get more funding and continuewith that program.
our county has some programs,some of which,
so Boulder County has a wildfire partnersprogram that's been going for a decade.
They recently won, National WildfireMitigation Award, which is fabulous.
(21:40):
It's actually like, wow, theythey should have won this five years ago.
We kind of assume they did,you know, like it's it's long forthcoming.
So we work closely with themto try to have consistency.
with what we're recommending.
you know,they have a slightly different structure.
But again,we try to really work closely with them.
So our residents get a similar,if not the same message.
(22:02):
They have some, funding opportunitiesfor fuels mitigation.
they're actually releasinground two here.
this week our city is looking at a,
same similar defensible space and homehardening grant program.
So that's in process to try to providesome financial, support for folks.
(22:27):
the insurance piece, we have
started seeing in some parts of Coloradoinsurance carriers.
I they're saying we're not writingany more policies
or we're actually going to canceland pull out.
that has been happening in like,evergreen.
Bailey.
at a minimum, up in Jefferson County,just just west of where I worked
(22:51):
for West Metro.
We haven't seen that much.
in the city,I think we've I've heard of 1 or 2 people
that received lettersthat, were, mandating,
some specific actions that the homeownersneeded to take to stay insured.
but the insurance, topic is a hot one, and,
(23:16):
you know, we're doing our bestto follow best practices.
that again, that science base and hope
hoping that the insurance carrierswill recognize, our program
or other programsthat are doing these assessments and,
and have some consistencywith what they're recommending as well.
But I wouldn't say it's the Wild West.
(23:37):
It's just it's evolving.
It's it's and we yeah.
Yeah.
(25:04):
Absolutely.
We look to California.
for many things, trying to understandwhat has occurred there.
that.
What can we possibly anticipate is goingto, occur here.
And actually recently,fire adapted Colorado,
which is a statewide network of wildfireresources professionals.
(25:24):
that I've been involved with for,about Buboy.
What's it been?
8 or 9 years?
and actually worked for them, for a yearafter I left West Metro,
we hosted a or they hosted a, webinar,
on insurance where we had, some folks,including Mike Thayer from,
(25:45):
from California that, youknow, was one of your, former employees
and just, to raise awarenessabout, again, what has happened
in California,what are the trends here in Colorado?
and sharingthat with, like, practitioners.
So and some of our residents attendedthat as well.
and we really,
(26:05):
are at this point doing education.
we are not enforcing any code,with our hot, detailed home assessments.
so we're really, again, trying to provideeducation in, empower residents
to take action and, again, basingthat all on, best practices.
And in some cases, people want to drilldown into further technical aspects.
(26:28):
so I shared this, links to the ebooks,
videos and studies,the nest studies, and all that.
So we have a lot of resourcesthat we, try to connect people with.
I also wanted to share that the, softwarethat we are using is called fireside.
And they they were basedthere based in Marin County.
(26:48):
and so we are also looking to,some of the agencies in California
that have been using the, softwarefor some time to learn from them.
What are some tricks of the trade?
what are some new featuresor new ways to,
to reach homeowners and, and measure,what they're doing?
(27:09):
Because we really that'sone of the tricky parts is
how do we measure outcomes versus outputs.
Like to saywe handed out this many brochures
about, well, for mitigation, okay.
That's an output.
we've done this many home assessments.
that's also an output.
But what are the outcomes.
So we're really trying to stay in contactwith our residents
(27:30):
that we've, done assessmentsfor to let us know what you have done.
so we can document that and then also know
what are the barriers, you know,are they financial barriers?
are they or some of the barrierswe're seeing is having a being able
to find a contractoror someone to do this work?
because people are not,
(27:52):
really familiarwith some of these retrofits.
they're not necessarily hard, but,
it's a burgeoning industrythat, that, you know, all about.
And a lot of the contractorshere are busy rebuilding homes
from the Marshall Fire or doing, big remodels in Boulder.
So they may not beinterested in, small job,
(28:15):
yeah.
Oh, yeah.
(28:38):
Right.
Right.
(29:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
(30:02):
Yeah.
(30:26):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I will share that I'm actuallyon disability
for work related PTSD.
and that includes.
I mean, and it was not one single event.
(30:46):
it's for me, accumulation of thousands
upon thousands of calls.
and having those different experiences
and then not knowing how to, talkabout it, not knowing what to do.
You know, you just gotta get back on themission, you know, you have a bad call.
(31:06):
but you're still on duty, you know?
And so, especially when I first started in99, there was not much.
If there was no conversation
about mental health forprobably the first 15 years of my career.
So, we are getting a better awarenessof this problem and starting
to connect people with tools, to dealand to, to mitigate the effects.
(31:28):
But the work isn't changing.
You know, we're running more calls.
we're having bigger fires.
that's going to all continue.
So and it's really affects us at all levels.
I think for the longest time we thoughtPTSD was a military, combat veteran.
those were the only onesthat were really affected.
(31:51):
And slowly we've realized, wow, allthe different levels of first responders,
including dispatchers,
it's really can be really traumatic.
And then even people at the practitionerlevel are working.
I say that like mitigation professionals,
when we're working with these communitiesand then a fire impacts them.
And I'm sure there's feelings ofwhat did I do wrong,
(32:13):
or I didn't do enough or just,oh my God, this is just a horrible thing.
but then I'll even trickle down furtherwhere I was just, doing a home assessment
for some of the other day,and they said that they get,
a little worried and stressed,and he used the word PTSD when it's windy
because of that wind drivendry grass fires.
(32:35):
I either Marshall fire,my son has made similar comments.
So, it's affecting people throughoutour community and I'll share that.
Unfortunately,there was also a mass shooting when which
I believe it was ten people were killedat our local grocery store.
just the way his at 3 or 4 years.
so our community has been impactedby a lot of, different, events.
(33:00):
And so,
again, there are tools available.
We are talking about it more,
there are more and more mental healthprofessionals that are,
what we call culturally competent,that are familiar
with, our, our work
in the scheduleand the types of things that we see.
(33:22):
And experience.
So that's all, like I said, real positive.
I think the main thingis talking about it.
And destigmatizing, we used to think of,mental health as a weakness.
Like, dry your eyes,get back on that ambulance.
I don't want to hear it.
or just like I said,just stuffing it down or alcohol.
(33:46):
For a lot of, firefighters, alcohol wasthe self was
and is the self medication.
so I feel really bad for some of the,the older generation,
you know, that guysthat just, didn't have the tools
and my dad is a, was a Vietnam vet,so that whole generation,
we just didn'ttalk about it. So I think,
(34:11):
All of us are impacted, and we have to,
again, we have to talk about it.
We have to raise awareness.
We have to, support one another.
because healing can occur.
these are not necessarily permanent.
yeah, yeah.
And there's.
Yeah. Yep.
(34:40):
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(35:05):
yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
(35:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know that, our department,as well as West Metro, who I used to work
for, we,we have in our building relationships
with, groups.
I can't think of the name right now.
I'm sorry, but a, mental health
professional, groupthat has multiple practitioners,
(36:01):
that are doing mental annual mentalhealth, check ins,
as well as being available for,you know, ongoing services.
and some of the timesthey've gone and done right along, spent
time in the station and just againbuilding that relationship
and, understanding again,what we're facing in the stresses.
(36:21):
So there's a lot of different,
like I said, resources available,even just like peer support.
you know, where we have, firefighters
that are, trained to, listen
and help connect other membersto, additional resources.
So sometimes peopledon't want to go see a therapist.
(36:43):
And maybe the first step is callingand talking to one of their.
Or it can just be someone that's not,trained in peer support,
you know, one of your brothersor sisters on the department.
or there are the peer support folksthat have some additional training,
that are is is safe, anonymous,
confidential,I should say, place to to start
(37:04):
venting, or sharing or crying or whateveryou need to do.
so we're, we're trying to really,change the culture.
and like you said,we aren't superheroes.
We're humans.
And any of the I mean, the things that,
we see and do,
(37:26):
sometimes are just really,horrific and really, traumatic.
And if you don't, like you said,talk about it, process it.
I have examples of how Itook it out, at home, how I,
acted out, let's
say, and had, PTSD, like flashbacks.
If you maybe you want to call themthat had nothing to do.
(37:48):
What was happening at home.
It was all, you know, stuffI had brought home
and my nervous system was dysregulatedand and all that stuff.
So it impacts our families.
And we know the divorcerate is really high.
the substance use and alcohol use is high.
But there's other solutions,there's other tools
(38:10):
and there's other people that really care.
And I mean, I'm happyto talk about, my experiences
if if there's anyone I actually, really feel like that would be
a great next step for me in my journey,you know?
Yeah.
(38:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
(39:04):
Yeah.
(39:51):
All right.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
All right.
That's all for this episode of All ThingsWildfire.
If you liked this episode,be sure to subscribe to our show
(40:13):
and follow us on social media.
To stay up to date on all things wildfire.
And as always, thanks for listening.
Welcome to the All ThingsWildfire podcast, where we delve into
the latest trends and hot topicsin protecting properties against wildfire.
So sit back, relax and join us as we arm
you against disaster.
(00:50):
Absolutely.
And I really appreciate the opportunity.
I've really been enjoying the the podcast.
So, thanks for having me.And thanks for having the podcast.
Great conversations.
Yeah.
(01:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I startedmy, fire service career in 1999,
with West Metro FireRescue in Lakewood, Wheat
Ridge, Morris in Colorado,which is basically the west southwest,
suburbs, edge of the city, butts up
(01:47):
to the foothills,here in the Front Range.
I worked as a firefighter paramedic.
I was with them for 22 years.
I spent quite a bit of time,
on the ambulance early on my in my careeras a paramedic field instructor.
we we they all say we sometimes in Vegas.
I'm no longer with West Metro, but,we have ALS.
(02:11):
ambulances.
And that was a big part of,it was really our bread and butter.
70 to 80% of our calls were medical calls,just like many,
of the suburbanfire departments across the country.
yeah.
And, but then I got really involved,with the wildland fire program.
(02:31):
I think the first fire's timethat I went on was the,
I can't remember the name of the fire now,but it was in, in Wyoming.
I went out on a type six engine,I think this was 2005 or 2006,
and just really, enjoyed the,the experience.
and it just really was, a part offirefighting that really appealed to me.
(02:55):
just my background as an outdoorsperson and,
and mapping and, and just some of thosedifferent challenges.
so I worked mostly out of our,station nine,
which was our wildland, hub,where we did, a lot of the training.
We're responsiblefor all the training, for our department.
a lot of the equipment,we manage the fire assignments,
(03:19):
a lot of different things.
And we really were runninga wildland division out of that station.
so, it grew a lot over the years.
And one of the things that,
I started getting interestedin was wildfire mitigation.
And that was a result of going on,a couple of fires
in 2012 and 2013that were really destructive,
(03:42):
in here in Colorado.
And one was the Black Forest fire in 2013outside of Colorado Springs.
The other was the High Park fire in 2012,
outside of Fort Collins.
And then right during that time,the Waldo Canyon Fire occurred,
which was a fire that was,in the forest west of Colorado Springs
(04:03):
and ended up, getting into the community
and destroying 500 plus homes,you know, residential community.
so, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
(04:29):
Yeah.
Great question.
And, seeing homesdestroyed is really, sobering.
You know,we see a lot of different, images.
we see all images all the time,you know, with, with all the technology
(04:50):
and the screens, but to stand amongst,
smoking foundations,as I say, and seeing,
just the absolute destruction of a home.
And then there's a visceral,
it's a visceral experience,and there's a, smell as well.
But one of the
a lot of different senses involved,and it really, like, stuck with me.
(05:11):
and one of the,
(05:34):
It's, it's devastating.
You know, it's,it's really hard to put into words, and
I think that it affects firefightersas well.
like I said, just walking through,
are sifting through the, the ruins of the house.
We're not necessarily, doing the restoration kind of stuff.
You do, but just putting out hotspotsand there's, parts
(05:57):
of, furniture or, different possessions
that are either completely turned to ashor, again, partially destroyed.
And it's just, it's a wow.
It's a really a wow experience.
and I think the one of the biggest thingsthat impacted me,
during the Black Forestfire is that, on the first day
(06:21):
we arrived, it was, pretty extremefire behavior in the, canopy.
So like an active brown firethat moved through the community
and destroyed quite a few homes.
one of the
things that really impacted mewas the following day,
you know, so, like, 24 hoursafter the fire front has passed,
there were homes that were ignitingand burning.
(06:41):
And the concept that we had been teaching
is, or learning aboutwas that it's not just the fire front,
but it can be, embers, of course,traveling some distance
in front of the fire,but also, low intensity,
surface fire after the fire front
that is creeping and could ignite a partof the structure that then destroyed.
(07:04):
So seeing homes go up 24 hoursafter the fire front passed was really,
I'd say shocking, but like, it
hit home those lessons, and those things that we had taught.
And then there was one part of thatcommunity that was newer, that had
that, was the homes were built out of,
(07:24):
more noncombustible materials.
And only one home in this,
covenant enclave.
The smaller community was destroyedand we saw, so,
yeah, a lot of those pieces, came togetherduring that.
those experiences.
And then I think the key thingwas when I went back to,
our districtand I started looking around,
(07:47):
especially on that western edge of the,those communities,
the conditionslook really similar to those,
in those other fires that had,
had massive destruction.
And what I realizedis that we needed to do
some work to raise awarenessabout the wildfire risk,
(08:08):
and we needed to start workingwith residents to make those changes,
and start mitigatingand preparing for, wildfire.
I think the sentimentwas these large destructive fires
that happens in California.
And then when those fires occurred,right along the frontrillionange,
(08:32):
we use the term Wake-Up call,
but people have a short memory.
So you can kind of get some momentumright after those fires.
But then if we don't have continuingdestructive fires,
which we didn't have as many,for another 6 or 7 years,
it kind of went back to or that'sa problem that happens in the mountains,
(08:57):
that happens in the forested areasor again,
that just happens in Colorado or,excuse me, California.
So it was hard to sustain momentumand really get people, including people,
in our department, you know, peoplethat do suppression to really recognize,
the risk and the potential.
(09:19):
And then what can we we do about it?
So, but.
Yeah.
(09:39):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
(10:06):
Right.
Yeah.
(10:40):
Yes. For sure.
all along, you know these communitiesthat we're talking about.
Denver, Colorado Springs, FortCollins, Boulder
were all positioned at basicallythe western edge of the Great Plains.
We are on the edge of where the GreatPlains meet, the Rocky Mountains.
And so the predominant fuel type is grass
(11:03):
all along.
again, this frontrillionange,I think we all knew
that a, wind driven grass fire,
which is a very common, type of incident,especially in the fall
when the grass fall through the spring,when the grass, is dry.
you know, it's cured out.
And if there's not snow on the ground,we also get, significant winds.
(11:29):
the Marshall fire was a,somewhat extraordinary wind event.
but we commonly get, wind events
that are in the 30 to 40 milean hour range with gusts to 50 or 60.
So we knew that a wind drivengrass fire would impact,
a community in, along the front lines.
(11:49):
I don't think anyone thought that1100 structures would be destroyed, but,
it was really
an eye opening experience, for many of usthat, yes,
it can happen here in the grasslands and,
and, well, what can we do about it? So
there's been a lot of,emphasis on grasslands management.
(12:14):
as a piece of the puzzle.
And so some of the folks, in this industryhave been working with some of the
other folks from the Great PlainsFire Science Exchange, that have done
a lot more work and research into,grassland fires and, and management.
so we're looking at what are thedifferent options, whether it be grazing,
(12:38):
sheep, cattle, prescribed fire, of course.
mowing, different types of, treatments.
And what can we do on a fuels managementstandpoint that
not only is going to reduce the fire risk,but we also have to
these lands are being managedfor recreation,
esthetics, wildlife.
(12:58):
And so there's just somecompeting interests, but there's a lot of,
attention and efforts
on, trying to better manage,the fuels component,
but then the home ignition zone piece, that's one of the other
one of the pieces of the puzzlethat we're really emphasizing,
(13:18):
our department,because there are things that people
can doto prevent their homes from igniting.
one of the big thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
(14:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
And a lot of this goes back to the work
of doctor Jack Cohen,who you probably are familiar with.
the groundbreaking researchthat he did in the 90s,
actually, and,you know, over the last several decades.
and then, of course, a lot of,
there's been a lot more casestudies, many of which are,
(14:26):
from California, of course.
And then all the laboratory studiesthat have been going on with IBS,
excuse me in courtor should be Nest and others,
we have some really good information about
how homes ignite during wildfiresand what people can do
to modify their home and their property,to reduce the risk of that occurring.
(14:50):
so we really try to focus
on, science based proven methods.
So I'll talk about the Marshall Fire.
one of the thingsthat was really a significant contributor
to, home ignitions and, firespread was wooden fences.
some of which really ignited. And,
(15:12):
a lot of
pathway directly to homeswhere homes ignited.
and then also those cedar, wood
fences are a great source of embersthat travel downwind.
So the best practice
would be to not have,a combustible fence at all.
So there's a varietyof different materials.
(15:33):
And that industry,I think, is really going to grow
as far as some metal options.
For instance, there's just, a lot ofpeople building cedar picket fences.
That's kind of the most common.
But if you can you, you know,
change your fence to have anoncombustible fence, that's really great.
But if you can't afford that or don'tyou know that's not part of your budget,
(15:56):
you know,the studies and others have shown
that if you replace the final,we say five feet.
Now nested is recommendeight feet, the last eight foot section
that's attached to your housewith something noncombustible
that goes a long way towardspreventing your,
home from igniting, roofs.
the use of shingle roofs were outlawed,
(16:18):
for lack of a betterterm, decades ago here in Boulder.
we're
seeing vulnerabilities with wood siding.
in some cases,there is still cedar shakes
siding on some of the homesthat were built in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
So, replacing your sidingwith noncombustible
materialssuch as cement, fiberboard is is huge.
(16:41):
But and we also have the message of
if you can't replace your,all of the siding in your home,
if you replace the lowest six inches,I think think that's the standard.
although I think this is sayingmaybe up to 24in, but
so at least the bottom six inchesshould be noncombustible.
that goes a long ways for preventing,ignitions from embers and,
(17:06):
things that, accumulate at the base of,the walls.
And then,we see a lot of wood decks and those sorts
of when they're ground level,it can be hard to clean underneath them.
so enclosing the underside of your deck,keeping,
keeping the deck underneath the deck cleanbecause those are the spots where,
(17:30):
leaves and needles accumulate.
And then also in those junctionswhere you have a deck,
connected to, again, combustible siding.
That's whereall the needles and leaves accumulate.
So if you can keep that cleanat a minimum, which doesn't cost anything
or replace those materials,
or what can you do to preventthat deck from igniting, you know,
(17:53):
around the perimeter and having nothingcombustible within the first five feet.
all of those are really thethe things we're seeing the most of,
as far as the recommendationswe're making, in terms of,
of course. Thank you.
Thank you. Yes, absolutely.
SOF advance, are pretty common here.
(18:16):
we do see some, gable and vents
and then, of course, the roof vents that are the outflow vents.
We absolutely suggest that you either useone eight inch or finer,
mesh screening, because that is startingto evolve a little bit.
We used to say one eighth, but one eighth
or finer, or, of course, the flameand ember resistant vents.
(18:38):
or another great option.
So depending on one's budget, what arethe other recommendations we're making?
We try to prioritize to help peopleprioritize because we know that people,
may or may not have an unlimited budgetto do all those things, but
we. Yeah.
(19:00):
No. Nope.
Go ahead.
Yep. Thank you.
(19:57):
Yeah.
(20:54):
Yeah.
I was going to say,
one thing in terms of,
financial support of the state of Colorado
does have a,
defensible space and home hardening,
grant program.
it's a pilot program.
so we're we're giving it a try.
(21:17):
It wasn't funded at a super high levelthis year, but the hope is that,
they will be able to show, some positive outcomes and
and get more funding and continuewith that program.
our county has some programs,some of which,
so Boulder County has a wildfire partnersprogram that's been going for a decade.
They recently won, National WildfireMitigation Award, which is fabulous.
(21:40):
It's actually like, wow, theythey should have won this five years ago.
We kind of assume they did,you know, like it's it's long forthcoming.
So we work closely with themto try to have consistency.
with what we're recommending.
you know,they have a slightly different structure.
But again,we try to really work closely with them.
So our residents get a similar,if not the same message.
(22:02):
They have some, funding opportunitiesfor fuels mitigation.
they're actually releasinground two here.
this week our city is looking at a,
same similar defensible space and homehardening grant program.
So that's in process to try to providesome financial, support for folks.
(22:27):
the insurance piece, we have
started seeing in some parts of Coloradoinsurance carriers.
I they're saying we're not writingany more policies
or we're actually going to canceland pull out.
that has been happening in like,evergreen.
Bailey.
at a minimum, up in Jefferson County,just just west of where I worked
(22:51):
for West Metro.
We haven't seen that much.
in the city,I think we've I've heard of 1 or 2 people
that received lettersthat, were, mandating,
some specific actions that the homeownersneeded to take to stay insured.
but the insurance, topic is a hot one, and,
(23:16):
you know, we're doing our bestto follow best practices.
that again, that science base and hope
hoping that the insurance carrierswill recognize, our program
or other programsthat are doing these assessments and,
and have some consistencywith what they're recommending as well.
But I wouldn't say it's the Wild West.
(23:37):
It's just it's evolving.
It's it's and we yeah.
Yeah.
(25:04):
Absolutely.
We look to California.
for many things, trying to understandwhat has occurred there.
that.
What can we possibly anticipate is goingto, occur here.
And actually recently,fire adapted Colorado,
which is a statewide network of wildfireresources professionals.
(25:24):
that I've been involved with for,about Buboy.
What's it been?
8 or 9 years?
and actually worked for them, for a yearafter I left West Metro,
we hosted a or they hosted a, webinar,
on insurance where we had, some folks,including Mike Thayer from,
(25:45):
from California that, youknow, was one of your, former employees
and just, to raise awarenessabout, again, what has happened
in California,what are the trends here in Colorado?
and sharingthat with, like, practitioners.
So and some of our residents attendedthat as well.
and we really,
(26:05):
are at this point doing education.
we are not enforcing any code,with our hot, detailed home assessments.
so we're really, again, trying to provideeducation in, empower residents
to take action and, again, basingthat all on, best practices.
And in some cases, people want to drilldown into further technical aspects.
(26:28):
so I shared this, links to the ebooks,
videos and studies,the nest studies, and all that.
So we have a lot of resourcesthat we, try to connect people with.
I also wanted to share that the, softwarethat we are using is called fireside.
And they they were basedthere based in Marin County.
(26:48):
and so we are also looking to,some of the agencies in California
that have been using the, softwarefor some time to learn from them.
What are some tricks of the trade?
what are some new featuresor new ways to,
to reach homeowners and, and measure,what they're doing?
(27:09):
Because we really that'sone of the tricky parts is
how do we measure outcomes versus outputs.
Like to saywe handed out this many brochures
about, well, for mitigation, okay.
That's an output.
we've done this many home assessments.
that's also an output.
But what are the outcomes.
So we're really trying to stay in contactwith our residents
(27:30):
that we've, done assessmentsfor to let us know what you have done.
so we can document that and then also know
what are the barriers, you know,are they financial barriers?
are they or some of the barrierswe're seeing is having a being able
to find a contractoror someone to do this work?
because people are not,
(27:52):
really familiarwith some of these retrofits.
they're not necessarily hard, but,
it's a burgeoning industrythat, that, you know, all about.
And a lot of the contractorshere are busy rebuilding homes
from the Marshall Fire or doing, big remodels in Boulder.
So they may not beinterested in, small job,
(28:15):
yeah.
Oh, yeah.
(28:38):
Right.
Right.
(29:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
(30:02):
Yeah.
(30:26):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I will share that I'm actuallyon disability
for work related PTSD.
and that includes.
I mean, and it was not one single event.
(30:46):
it's for me, accumulation of thousands
upon thousands of calls.
and having those different experiences
and then not knowing how to, talkabout it, not knowing what to do.
You know, you just gotta get back on themission, you know, you have a bad call.
(31:06):
but you're still on duty, you know?
And so, especially when I first started in99, there was not much.
If there was no conversation
about mental health forprobably the first 15 years of my career.
So, we are getting a better awarenessof this problem and starting
to connect people with tools, to dealand to, to mitigate the effects.
(31:28):
But the work isn't changing.
You know, we're running more calls.
we're having bigger fires.
that's going to all continue.
So and it's really affects us at all levels.
I think for the longest time we thoughtPTSD was a military, combat veteran.
those were the only onesthat were really affected.
(31:51):
And slowly we've realized, wow, allthe different levels of first responders,
including dispatchers,
it's really can be really traumatic.
And then even people at the practitionerlevel are working.
I say that like mitigation professionals,
when we're working with these communitiesand then a fire impacts them.
And I'm sure there's feelings ofwhat did I do wrong,
(32:13):
or I didn't do enough or just,oh my God, this is just a horrible thing.
but then I'll even trickle down furtherwhere I was just, doing a home assessment
for some of the other day,and they said that they get,
a little worried and stressed,and he used the word PTSD when it's windy
because of that wind drivendry grass fires.
(32:35):
I either Marshall fire,my son has made similar comments.
So, it's affecting people throughoutour community and I'll share that.
Unfortunately,there was also a mass shooting when which
I believe it was ten people were killedat our local grocery store.
just the way his at 3 or 4 years.
so our community has been impactedby a lot of, different, events.
(33:00):
And so,
again, there are tools available.
We are talking about it more,
there are more and more mental healthprofessionals that are,
what we call culturally competent,that are familiar
with, our, our work
in the scheduleand the types of things that we see.
(33:22):
And experience.
So that's all, like I said, real positive.
I think the main thingis talking about it.
And destigmatizing, we used to think of,mental health as a weakness.
Like, dry your eyes,get back on that ambulance.
I don't want to hear it.
or just like I said,just stuffing it down or alcohol.
(33:46):
For a lot of, firefighters, alcohol wasthe self was
and is the self medication.
so I feel really bad for some of the,the older generation,
you know, that guysthat just, didn't have the tools
and my dad is a, was a Vietnam vet,so that whole generation,
we just didn'ttalk about it. So I think,
(34:11):
All of us are impacted, and we have to,
again, we have to talk about it.
We have to raise awareness.
We have to, support one another.
because healing can occur.
these are not necessarily permanent.
yeah, yeah.
And there's.
Yeah. Yep.
(34:40):
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(35:05):
yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
(35:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know that, our department,as well as West Metro, who I used to work
for, we,we have in our building relationships
with, groups.
I can't think of the name right now.
I'm sorry, but a, mental health
professional, groupthat has multiple practitioners,
(36:01):
that are doing mental annual mentalhealth, check ins,
as well as being available for,you know, ongoing services.
and some of the timesthey've gone and done right along, spent
time in the station and just againbuilding that relationship
and, understanding again,what we're facing in the stresses.
(36:21):
So there's a lot of different,
like I said, resources available,even just like peer support.
you know, where we have, firefighters
that are, trained to, listen
and help connect other membersto, additional resources.
So sometimes peopledon't want to go see a therapist.
(36:43):
And maybe the first step is callingand talking to one of their.
Or it can just be someone that's not,trained in peer support,
you know, one of your brothersor sisters on the department.
or there are the peer support folksthat have some additional training,
that are is is safe, anonymous,
confidential,I should say, place to to start
(37:04):
venting, or sharing or crying or whateveryou need to do.
so we're, we're trying to really,change the culture.
and like you said,we aren't superheroes.
We're humans.
And any of the I mean, the things that,
we see and do,
(37:26):
sometimes are just really,horrific and really, traumatic.
And if you don't, like you said,talk about it, process it.
I have examples of how Itook it out, at home, how I,
acted out, let's
say, and had, PTSD, like flashbacks.
If you maybe you want to call themthat had nothing to do.
(37:48):
What was happening at home.
It was all, you know, stuffI had brought home
and my nervous system was dysregulatedand and all that stuff.
So it impacts our families.
And we know the divorcerate is really high.
the substance use and alcohol use is high.
But there's other solutions,there's other tools
(38:10):
and there's other people that really care.
And I mean, I'm happyto talk about, my experiences
if if there's anyone I actually, really feel like that would be
a great next step for me in my journey,you know?
Yeah.
(38:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
(39:04):
Yeah.
(39:51):
All right.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
All right.
That's all for this episode of All ThingsWildfire.
If you liked this episode,be sure to subscribe to our show
(40:13):
and follow us on social media.
To stay up to date on all things wildfire.
And as always, thanks for listening.
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