DH 11, Revisit: Elf Arthritis

Episode Transcript
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(00:15):
This is episode three hundred and seventyone of Alohama for April eighth, twenty
twenty three. Welcome to another episodeof Aloha Mora, the fandom's original Harry

(00:41):
Potter book Club. I'm Bianca Lynch, I'm Rex Hadden, and I'm Alison
Sickard. And this week this episode, we are joined by Leah Jamison.
Welcome Leah. Did I say thatright? I just suddenly Yah, don't
worry. You're good. Yeah,Okay, awesome, Thanks for having me.
It is such an honor to behere. Oh, it's a pleasure
to have you. Yeah, tellus a little bit about you, about

(01:03):
how you got into Harry Potter andyour house and all those fun things that
we love to know. Yeah.Yeah, So I've been listening since I
think twenty fourteen to alhomor so it'sbeen a long time. And then,
um, I got into Potter.I think I started with the third book,
and i'd seen the first two movies, so yeah, I think I
read the third book. It wasjust one of those things that my parents

(01:26):
were like I probably heard about iton the news and like tried to give
me the book or what it means. M So I read The Prisoner of
Basket in first and then went backand read the other two and fell in
love ever since. I think likewe all sort of did. Let's see
house, griffendor I was born likelate July. I'm like a Leo,

(01:48):
like very much like griffendor Y.I'm a fire sign too, Oh my
god, yes, yeah, I'ma Sagittarius. But my risings Alio,
Oh my god, you're a doublefire sign. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
I think that's that's pretty much abrief summary. Yeah, well it's
such a pleasure. Oh sorry,Oh, I was just gonna like ask

(02:10):
Leah to like further explain who sheis, like Wantronus all that jazz?
Yes, okay, So Patronis isa dolphin. Um, yeah, it's
my best friends. Patronis is adolphin. Really, I don't have some
some people on the internet, likesomewhere have like a spread cheet that like
tells you how to get which onesand like how common they are, And

(02:31):
I think the dolphins pretty common.Um, but I know I haven't.
I got it. I've announced myPatronis. I believe on every episode that
I've been on of it being ahypograph, I got a dolphin. The
first time I did the Patronis testand I was like, absolutely not.

(02:52):
Dolphins are so great. They are, They're so do you know what they're
doing? Ocean? Why this islike they like just google it. No,
I'm not, you know what,We're not even going here. We're
not like, okay, let's talkabout the one in like one meal case,

(03:13):
or like a dolphin got a littleacross. I compare that to how
often a human gets aggressive, andthen we don't even want to say anything.
All right, well, no,they're great. I just didn't feel
like it matched me. Yeah,you don't want to like live under the
sea. Do I look like ared Jamaican crab with that background? Um?

(03:35):
A little bit, A little bit. I would love to live in
the sea. I would much ratherbe a whale. Well no, I'd
rather be an orca, which technicallyis a dolphin, but because they're actually
more I believe they're in the porpoisethe dolphins. They are definitely dolphins,
and they're the apex predator. SoI'm like, sign me up for the
orca life. I mean, Ido. I love the ocean, but

(04:00):
I think I'm more of like abird person. I'd rather be a bird.
Oh, I hate birds. I'drather die than be a bird.
Al polar opposite. Now that wehave completely derailed this copse, Yeah,
I actually going to talk about inthis episode. Oh, this is gonna
be apode. Besides um sea lifeor avian life. Um, We're also

(04:27):
going to be talking about deathly HollowsChapter eleven, the Bribe in this episode.
This was episode one and sixty one. It's Heavy Harry with hosts Allison,
Michael and Kristen and guest Hannah fromOctober twenty five, twenty fifteen.
Oh my gosh, that was solong ago. It's been a while.
That was a long time ago.That was like over two hundred episodes ago

(04:50):
and eight years and I actually listenedto that episode pretty like almost eight years,
like seven and a half. Good, then you'll remember what we said
on that, because I don't rememberanything we said. No, That's why
I'm saying, are gonna let usknow if your thoughts have changed, because
that can't happen. Well. Iwould do that to Kat all the time.

(05:12):
I would like voice know her andbe like, on this episode,
you said this, and she'd belike really, I said, I'm like
you did. That's exactly what yousaid. And there were some things where
she was like, I still standby this, and there's other things where
she's like, yeah no. Soyou know, people involved things change.
Don't be calling Allison. I haveregret in the comments. I was in

(05:32):
my undergrad then still whole different versionof Alison. It's true. I've been
teaching for seven years and now I'min grad school and things are different.
Look at that growth beautiful anyway,Speaking of growth and people who help us
grow, this episode is sponsored byLaura Vegue for their second time Thank you

(05:59):
for healthy guess. Throw the showum and if you want to join our
Patreon for an ad free version ofthe show. To watch the video of
this episode so you can see usbeing all sorts of crazy, you can
go to our patreon head on overthere. It says it starts at two
dollars a month patreon dot com slashAlohamura to find out more lots of cool

(06:21):
stuff on there, come join usand diving into the shout out Maxima for
this week. This is from episodethree hundred and sixty nine and where we
revisited Half Blood Prince Chapter fourteen FelixFelices and this was called catterpillar horn.
I'd like, I tried to practicethat before I got here, and I

(06:43):
still messed it up. So therewe are. It just rolls off the
cheng caterpillar horn. You know youdon't got to say that effortlessly. It
make me look bad, right,I mean you could have so pronunciation is
not my strong suit. Okay,okay, So this comment came Griffin prefect.
The comment says, you know howat the start of professional games,

(07:05):
the players typically run through smoke froma fog machine. What if this could
be enchanted like the Green Goot's waterfallto remove any effects from potions, spells,
etc. And wherever in detected andremoves the enchantment, the fog changes
color to let officials know that theplayer was attempting to cheat. We at
least have evidence that there are waysto remove potions like poly juice, so

(07:27):
why not felix? So my followup question to that is, let's say
this is true. What do wethink would happen if let's even say like
Harry. Let's go all the way. If Harry was about to enter into
a quidditch match and he went throughthe fog and started glowing gold and then

(07:49):
someone knew that he had the Felix. What would they do? Is the
expelled from Hogwarts Katie not play thegame? Do they just pop him on
the wrist and let him keep playing? Like? What do we think the
honishment is? Like here, thewaterfall removes everything, So I think the
fog would just remove everything and justnotify that, like, oh, this
person used this potion or spell.Yeah, but then what but it's going

(08:13):
to remove it? Yeah? No. I still think there would be consequences
though, And I think there'd bea fine, a fine, well Harry
got so he impressed, he's likeI got Gal, he's at school.
He'd lose house points. I thinkthere's definitely going to be a suspension and
stuff. I don't think there.I think that they're just a lot more
show. I'm sorry to continue,Alison, No, no, no,

(08:37):
that's fine. I want to saythat they say what the penalty is somewhere
either in half Flood or in Quidditchto the ages, and I cannot remember
off the top of my head.And if I had looked at this before,
I would have gone to look itup, but I didn't because I
did my notes three days ago.But that's fine. Um suspend from Hogwarts

(09:01):
or from quitter from the team,from the team all together. You think
they would suspend Harry Potter. Well, I guess they didn't there never mind,
I mean, I mean minus Umbridge. Do you think they would have
suspended Harry Potter. I think forsomething like this, Yes, I don't
think they would have because I feellike in at Hogwarts, so many of

(09:24):
them just kind of get like aslap on the wrist because it's like it's
magic and it's fun and their kids, and I don't know, I feel
like for something like this, they'dbe like, that's unsportsmanlike and it's not
related to Harry's like destiny. SoDumbledore's not going to step in. That's
fair because it's only when it's hedoes things that are illegal that you know

(09:45):
Dumbledore's like, it's fine, ithasn't been started up. Yeah, got
it. Well, But then kindof just going off of Harry being Harry
and the Golden Child, what ifit's random Ray even Claws student, same
thing? I think, Oh,you think Dumbledore wouldn't show favoritism to a

(10:05):
random Raven Claw. I don't thinkhe would for Harry in this case either.
Oh, I think he would showfavoritism. Are you a non Dumbledore
fan? Well, like, Iwas just like just thinking of how Dumbledore
like treats Harry in the series,like he puts him on like a pedestal.
But that's what I'm saying is helets him get away with things that
have to do with like Harry's destiny, but this doesn't really have to do

(10:28):
with that. So I think,oh my gosh, you know he's going
to be in charge of this punishmentMcGonagall And that's scarier than Doubledore being in
charge of its fair because cheating atquidditch because that's her life mm because ball
is life. Yeah, but atthe same time, she also wants a
griffriend door to win. I don'tlisteners, please chime in, let it,

(10:50):
let us know, because yeah,yeah, I feel like there's a
solid argument from all sides here.I think. Nah, I was just
thinking, Yeah, McGonagall wouldn't belike that. That's like a major internal
conflict for character, I feel.But I feel like, even as much
as she wants to win, ifsomeone's cheating to win, she's not okay
with that. Um. Also,I feel like Oliver Wood would return if

(11:11):
Harry did this and like slap himoutside the head too. I don't do
you think Oliver Wood is in likecontact with like the team after he graduates.
Oh, I'm sure I feel likehe would be. He's following their
staff. Jelena was taking tips,sending dozens of owls, just going back

(11:33):
and forth. Of course he wasmy man, Oliver retun should do it.
Chapter revisit Chapter eleven, The Bribe. Okay, now let's get into

(11:58):
the chapter Murray. Harry grows restlesswaiting for his house Elf while at Number
twelve grim Old Place. While hidingout the Golden Trio worry about ministry officials,
death theaters, or perhaps both.Outside Dreamy Rima Slopin arrives, giving
them intel on what has been goingon, mainly that death theaters control the

(12:18):
government, a nice parallel to acertain countries political climate. Today, we
learned that Talks is with child andthat Lupin is on the lamb having a
midlife crisis. We then see anarticle about the biography of Albus Dumbledore by
infamous writer Rita Skeeter. Creature thenreturns with Monogas Fletcher, where we learn
that a toad like lady bought alocket from him. No, So yeah,

(12:43):
this chapter. The thing I foundmost interesting about it that I think
is different than a lot of otherchapters in the series is it's five very
distinct scenes. I mean, theyall take place in the same location and
kind of one after another, butthe beginning and the end of each scene
is so clear, like it's likethis scene happened, this scene happened.

(13:07):
Yeah, And it was a fascinatingstructure because I can't think of another chapter
off the top of my head thatit's that distinct, and five is a
lot of scenes for a chapter.So yeah, that was kind of the
first thing that really jumped out atme was the structure happening here. So

(13:30):
I kind of broke down the dockas well into those scenes, and I
thought we could kind of go througheach one at a time, but let's
do it. Leah, you've gota note here as well. I did
put a note just like before jumpinginto individual scenes. When I was looking
through the chapter, I noticed itwas just like mostly dialogue. I don't

(13:50):
know how like how often that happens, but I found it interesting, I
guess, and it makes sense ifit's a bunch of character on character scenes.
Yeah, I don't know, likethe pacing of the story if that
has anything to do with where thischapter fits in the bigger picture of the
book. Yeah, because we arepretty early on in a lot of ways

(14:13):
in this book, and we're reallykind of at the point where kind of
the main inciting stuff has happened andnow we've got to kind of sit back
for a minute and figure out whatcomes next and kind of process everything.
And I think that's kind of likethe purpose of this chapter is to just
give the reader just insight of what'sgoing on. I think that's why Lupan's
brought in, Yeah, just tojust be like, this is what's going

(14:37):
on. Yeah. Yeah, weneed we need the context of the wider
setting to understand the stakes as wekeep going. Yeah, we need to
know we needed an update as badlyas they did. Yeah. Yeah.
But one of my favorite things thatI loved from the beginning of this chapter
is it's such a classic Harry Gryffindormoment the very first few sentences of this

(15:01):
chapter where he's pacing and he's reallyimpatient and he's like creature escaped from the
cave. He'll have done here intwo hours, and he's like really impatient
when that doesn't happen, which isalso a parallel in the ring chapter of
this which is shell Cottage is oneof the ring chapters. For this chapter,

(15:26):
I think, I think I didthat right, And in that chapter,
the beginning of that chapter, hespecifically makes the choice not to act
and to kind of accept not takingdirect action, which is a lovely little
parallel here, and I think showsjust how quickly he kind of has to

(15:46):
force himself through some maturity stages andgrowing up in just this book alone.
You know, I agree, speakingof Creature going to find Dong, I
was just kind of carry is.I know that Creature didn't end up saying
that. You know, Don isgood at kind of you know, ducking
and dodging, but I was justcurious, why do we think it took

(16:07):
him so long? Because I'm gonnabe honest with you, I'm Loki on
Harry side, like I would haveexpected you back the same day, and
I am a hufflepuff, so Iwould have had those exact same expectations,
especially because I feel like, wait, this is this is definitely hollows.
There's some point in the book whereyou get the idea that elves just have
this whole ass magic that like noone else has access to. So I

(16:33):
feel like, also at this point, that's where my expectations are so creature.
What do we think are his strengthswhenever it comes to stalking, where
do we think that he did reallywell? And maybe where he fell short?
And we don't have to go intoa long discussion here. I think
it would be cool to hear fromthe listeners, but I just wanted to
point out that I was really onthe same page as Harry, Like,

(16:55):
why did it take him so longto find him? Well, isn't mundunga
good at like hiding? Like he'sgood at like not like putting on a
disguise? Yeah, and yeah,and he's also got like accomplices and places
to hide. Does he have accomplices? I mean I assume so. He
seems kind of like a loan Idon't loan wolf. I don't really trust

(17:18):
anybody guy to me. I don'treally see him being like a team player
type of a guy. I don'tthink he's a team player. But I'm
sure he's got like hideouts and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, like other
no gooders who would be willing tolet him. Yeah, okay, got
it, Like he helped someone hidefrom like an error, so like,

(17:38):
yeah, that's I think that's exactlyhow it would be. I definitely think
though creature creatures got the like skulkingthing down and the like shadowing thing down,
because he's he's good at like hidingin shadowy corners and following people.
But I think his his weakness wouldprobably be I mean, he's an old
elf physically, he's probably gonna havea little bit of issues catching this guy.

(18:03):
He's got that. No I refuseauthorritis. That's so sad, you
know what. I what I literallyjust thought about too. So if why
is it so uncommon to see houseelves just out and about if they are,
like you, working for their masters, because aren't they the ones going

(18:26):
to the stores of pickups of likewhy are they never just like seen you
know what I mean? Because youdon't want to see or hear them.
Yes, that's that's what they say. Yeah, I think in Goblet of
Fire they say the sign of agood house elf is you don't know they're
there, So okay, they operateunder the cloak of darkness. Yeah,

(18:48):
I don't know if you guys hadto start playing the video game. But
like that's a little touch that theyput in the game. I heard about
that. I haven't played it yetbecause I have a PS four and I'm
waiting until like twelve years from nowwhen it finally releases on the PS four.
I guess maybe about the spoiler tothe game. It's a very minor
thing though, like you'll be runningaround at night, and like if there's

(19:08):
a house, they'll like pop awayif you get close to them, and
don't see them more often at nighttoo. So I kind of labeled this
scene anticipation in Grimaud Place. Andso the other thing that comes up again
in this chapter in this scene isthat we know that Snape has been to

(19:30):
Grimaud Place. But did the tonguetime curse actually work? Did it actually
tie his tongue? Is he reallyunable to speak about the location or is
he just choosing not to because Idon't know if we ever get a firm
answer on I mean not saying thathe wouldn't because I think by the time

(19:52):
we learn at the end, hewouldn't have given them the location anyway.
But I'm curious if the magic isactually working more than anything. I think
if the magic is not working,he like is choosing not too. But
like you said, Alice, andwe really don't know if the magic is

(20:17):
working. When you say are youokay? Are you talking when you say
it doesn't work? Okay, we'renot at all talking about the like Dusty
Dumbledore, right, No, okay, we're talking about the part, yeah,
the part where it would make Snapeunable to say anything about grimmat place.

(20:38):
I mean, what would that conversationlook like? Is safe? Just
like talking to death eaters? Andthen like he tries to say it,
and I mean I think so.I always pictured it as like you have
the word on the tip of yourtongue and like you just can't think of
how to say it. Okay,you imagine the more it's impatience, as

(21:02):
Snape was like um um oh,I'm like, what's worse that? Or
being like oh yeah, they're alittle they're a little see I've been sturt
it like that like that like inBruce Almighty when he was doing that too,
because he wanted does anyone know whatI'm talking about? If you're a
listener and you're listening, thank youleoh, Because so basically he wanted to

(21:26):
be like the main anchor guy onthe news that the other guy got his
job, and because he was playinglike god and the guy was like on
air trying to talk and he justtried to go on like bloa like every
time he tried to say something.And so, yeah, Alison, I
think that's kind of where I wasgoing with that. That's how I've always
pictured it, where you're like andit's at the thing, like physically you

(21:48):
can't get it out of your mouth, yes, because I just think that
would be more frustrating than being like, oh, I can't think of that.
I can't think of that, youknow. I think seeing Snap struggle
in that way for either one isjust making my day regards and I'll imagine
his audience's faith. I love thatimage. It's been saying in Baltimore,
just being like I'm sorry, Okay, we can move on. Oh flit

(22:17):
along with you guys. Yes,it has been. So the purpose of
this scene is basically that just everyoneis on edge the whole time. Like
Ron is playing with a deluminator andhe keeps turning the lights on and off,
which is driving Hermione crazy because Hermioneis trying to read Tales of Beatle
the Bard and Harry is just likepaced in the whole house and everyone is

(22:38):
like, oh my gosh, youhave got to stop. So that's really
the point here, and I thinkit does a really good job of setting
us up for what comes next.Is there's so much anxiousness happening in this
scene. It's like bleeding off thepage. Yeah, you can fail it
for sure, And I feel likewe're again. I think as a reader,

(23:00):
especially a first time reader, you'reyou're also feeling that too, like
what is going on you? Itwent from all this action and now they're
just at a house and you're justlike, what's next. Yeah. I
wanted to say, like in general, this chapter just felt to me on
the reread, like I was justimpressed by how like strongly I as the

(23:23):
reader, felt exactly what I thinkthe intention was for the trio to be
feeling like. It was just veryprobably like when Lupin comes back, you're
sort of like relieved and then you'relike, oh, I hope he stays
and like everything it was just likeI felt them. Maybe it's just because
it's like the seventh book and you'vebeen with the series for this long at
that point and like your emotions aremore in sync. But it was just

(23:45):
like impressive to me. I thinkfrom a writing standpoint that she achieved that.
Yeah, Leah, do you wantto bring up this other point you
had about Hermione or I did,well, yeah, I'll try to be
brief, but like I I like, no, because you're saying how they're
all on edge, and clearly,you know, with good reason. But

(24:06):
then I was also thinking a littlebit more about like Hermione has just gotten
like a few days ago, thislike book from Dumbledore post Mortem, and
she's like convinced that she has likefigure something out, piece something together from
it, and we like get fromthe text in this chapter that she's like
studied it three nights in a row. And I'm just like wondering what's going

(24:29):
through her head, Like what isshe analyzing? Like what was her approach
to this like quote unquote assignment fromDumbledore. Like I'm sure she coming from
an academic sort of identity like approachedthis like I feel like the stress of
solving this riddle that she was leftwas she's feeling up Well, yeah,

(24:51):
I don't know what the assignment is. One that she doesn't know what it
is because she's the one who figuredit out so often throughout the series.
It's also just kind of like aI don't know if I would call it
like a humbling moment as well.I mean, arguably Ron's over there trying
to figure out the deluminator. Soyeah, yeah, they're all kind of

(25:15):
trying to figure out their puzzles,you know, that they've been given.
And I think that also is leadingto a lot of their stress and being
on edge, is they're like,Okay, we have these clues, but
we have no idea what their cluesfor, or what's going on here or
how they're supposed to work, Sowe can't take the next step forward until

(25:37):
we understand them. That we don'tunderstand them, we have no idea,
So that's a stressor too, AndI think it's even showing a completely different
dynamic than what we're used to seeingfrom them when they were in school.
I guess typically whenever they were inschool, it was very rare that they
were all together, but not liketalking or interacting like they were normally doing
something together. To get this viewof them now outside of school, obviously

(26:03):
a completely different mission that doesn't involve, you know, passing an exam.
We see all three of them arethere, but they're not even necessarily like,
you know, conversing. It's likethey're kind of all doing their own
thing. Which I also feel likeI'm not saying exactly like it's it's like
part of adulthood, but I alsokind of feel like it kind of is
like, you know, when yougo from oh, we're all getting together

(26:23):
and doing something versus like sometimes you'rejust in company and you're just kind of
doing your own thing. So Ithought that was like an interesting progression from
what we're used to seeing at allwords, it's a breakdown of having that
structure that's placed upon you, right, which is part of becoming an adult.
All of a sudden, you don'thave you know, the structure of
the school day or or whatnot,and things are different and you have to

(26:47):
figure out, how do I livemy life if between the hours of eight
and three, I'm not you knowwhat am I supposed to be doing?
Right? Yeah? And then asan adult you realize it's just a never
ending list. It's true. Wholeother conversations, Yeah, another podcast another
time, speaking of changes though thatkind of takes us into the next scene,

(27:08):
which is where we start learning howthe world has changed so quickly and
we kind of get our outside viewof what's happening. And that really starts
when Lupin shows up that it justwalks in the door, just walks in
the door. M definitely had athought about that. Um, So at

(27:33):
this point we know that it ispossible to send a patronis to someone.
I feel like I don't know ifit was recently or in like one of
the older episodes, but I'm prettysure there was a conversation had about how
like the patronis will just like knowwhere to find you, almost like an
owl, right, So in mybrain, I'm like, you didn't want

(27:53):
us send a patronis first, orlike you didn't no, no, no,
he doesn't like to. We knowthat Lupin doesn't like to do a
full corporeal patronis because his patronis isa wolf and he hates that because he
hates that that's a reminder of hiswere wolf status, so he almost never

(28:15):
does corporeal patronis is. I feellike in the current situation, you can
get over that, like and also, let's be honest as we're going to
get like go into yeah, likelupin self hate. But yeah, but
I think I was I was goingto say, like, arguably, if

(28:37):
he would have sent the patronis,then it probably could have added to his
case later on. But we'll getthere. I just wanted to point out
there needs mental health, but hedoesn't have access to mental health, right.
But but I mean, I'm justthinking from like a common sense perspective.
Even when we're all home and youlike you hear a noise, You're
like, what's that? And I'mlike, imagine how on edge you would

(29:00):
have to be on the run afterthe entire wisiting world just basically would up
in flames and you're just gonna likebust in the door. And even the
way they described it like a cloakedfigure Rose, I was like, yeah,
I probably would have just like killedyou on the spot. I was
just like at the gate, like, I'm like that was impressive that they

(29:21):
were not like I'm I'm like fightingand asking questions, asking questions later.
So I don't know. I guessonly certain people know where Grimald places.
So they're like, all right,there's a there's a limited number of people
this could be walking in the doorat this point. Didn't they already know
that there were death Eaters out there? Or no, do they do?

(29:41):
They'd seen them walk like walking aroundthe square, but they could tell that
the death Eaters can't see the houseand can't get in the house. They
were like trying to find the nonexistent house. Yes, and so like
they know it's around there, butthey don't know where it is, so
they're not getting in. They're justconfused. Why it goes eleven thirteen trio.

(30:07):
It's like a fair first thought ifa stranger walks in, Yeah,
I seen death eaters outside, butyeah, I would be I would think
I would be like they finally figuredit out. I would not think like,
oh, it's a friend like thatwould not at all. That wouldn't
be my first second, first,second, or third assumption is that it
was a friend at all. Well, they might not know what Snape has
done as well, what do youmean that's true too? What he's done

(30:32):
about? What? Like is Snapeevil? Oh? They think he's evil
because Harry saw him kill Dumbledore atthe end of Half Blood. Yeah,
I'm like what well, yeah,but like they don't know if like Snape
was Snape like, oh Valdemort twelvethgrimote place right next to who would have

(30:52):
thought? Because Snake was like hecouldn't, but no, we can.
It was It was honestly just athought that I had, was like that
would have scared me so much.And I'm like, can I get a
warning when my husband comes home early? I'm like, he has obviously equal
rights to this house. And whenI hear like him come home early,
I'm like, why didn't you tellme that you were off early? And

(31:14):
he's like, oh, I didn'tthink I had to announce coming to my
own house. And I'm like,I'm paranoid, okay, um, And
no, I was just pointing outjust how I thought it could have been
nice to have a warning. Um. I did also make a know how
they said a cloaked I've put clockedin the dock a cloaked figure rose And

(31:34):
I was also just wondering like thatjust seemed a little dramatic, like was
it really that dark in there?Like yeah, like they said a cloaked
figure. I had flashbacks to likeSorcerer's Stone of like the Forbidden Forest.
I'm like, you know, Ron'sin here with literally extra light in his

(31:55):
hand. I'm like, why,I don't know, it was I think
it was good. It was justlike I was, it was like a
little bit horror movie vibes there forlike a solid like ten seconds of like
door burst, open, cloak figure. Like I was like, this is
some hard stuff for me. ButI also think a lot of the language

(32:15):
is just just to kind of implythe stress of this, like the world,
yeah, because it is kind ofvery scary verbiage, but the world
is very scary right now. Yeah, yeah, agree, well, and
I think it's interesting you bring upthat that does kind of flash you back
to sorry, speaking of things thatmake you jump, my neighbors slammed their
door all the time and I jumpevery time and they just didn't. Okay,

(32:37):
So that was funny. It isinteresting because I think maybe in some
ways it is meant to mirror PhilosopherStone, since the books are, you
know, mirrors of each other.So yeah, you're supposed to be thinking
about the other times there have beencloaked figures in the dark. And yeah,

(33:00):
Grimma place right now is growdy,so like I mean not when they've
been there, but it is afterlike after creature comes back and he gets
the locket he cleans it all up. I've always just pictured grimmel place,
like grungy and dusty. Well,I think as long as we're literally in

(33:23):
that it will never you'll never envisionit as a ray of sunshine. So
we do find out though that thisis remiss at the door. Um,
and I found it very interesting thatHermione and Ron were so quick to trust
him and Harry is so much moreparanoid, which I mean obviously um,

(33:43):
but I was like, shouldn't Hermioneno better to not just be like,
oh yeah, it's fine. Agree, Yeah, I feel like she should
have known better. But Harry alsolike literally just came from like stinking of
parallels, like Lupin doing the samething to him. Right, they a
rive at the borough, it's likeproof that you're Harry. So Harry sorted,

(34:05):
Yeah, play a nice game attwenty questions, Yeah, what's your
favorite jam. I think Hermione wasdefinitely off her game there. But I
do also think that because the situationis so intense right now that any and
I think you know, we allknow that in general, humans are what's

(34:27):
the word I never remember a verseversus adverse. I think it's a verse
when you don't want it. Isit a verse aversive? Okay? Humans
are averseive? Are you sure?I don't think that because it's an action
humans don't like change. Let mejust let's just take the word out.
Okay, I think humans aren't resistant. Let's go there, like even though

(34:47):
like we can deny it all wewant to, like, you know,
we like routine, we like familiar, and I think that to come into
Hermione's defense, although I do agree, like girl, what you do and
like you should not have been thatdrust thing, I do think that a
lot of it just has to dowith a familiar face because at that point
everyone's on edge. Like we saidearlier, no one even knows what's going
on. So I can definitely seehow the first instinct would be relief and

(35:14):
not suspicion. And it makes perfectsense to me why Harry, just like
I'm Leah was saying, unless youput in the in the drug and the
dogs and Nig's perfect sense, whyum, why Harry would be the one
to be the most non trusting.But I did I did want to also

(35:37):
say, because I have this thingwhenever it comes to some of these errors
in the book cough cough, Moodyand Tonks who were built up to be
these super bad ass characters, andthroughout the entire series we did not witness
them do one b A d SSSthing. Um. So, I don't

(36:00):
know, I just kind of Idisagree with that. Please Elephant tell me.
I want to know. Moody ispretty hardcore? Is it a Moody
or Bart you're thinking, yeah,that I'm thinking of Moody. Okay,
let's get let's get an example outhere on the table. I mean everything
he does is always hardcore. Imean, what has he done? Dine?

(36:29):
But I'm all ears, Alison,I'm now you've put me on the
spot, and I mean him that'sa problem for me. Well Moody for
sure. I mean when when Harrygoes back into the memories, he sees
that like Moody had a chunk ofhis nose taken out by a death eater.
Oh, you're gonna try to uselike not real life Moody. You're

(36:51):
gonna use memory mode. No,no, you cannot use memory mode.
No, no, why not?But I feel like real Moody, Yes,
I mean more more so than partyCrust Junior. Yeah, I feel
like after Goblet of Fire and everythingthat happened to him there, he was
like semi retired, which is whywe don't really see a lot of him.

(37:14):
But he did some crazy stuff backin the day, you know.
And Tonks, I think is Tonkswas his protege. I just love Tonks,
don't hate Talks whichever I do.I do not hate Tonks. I
don't hate Tonks or Moody. Ijust always was annoyed that they built them
up to be like these characters thatwere so powerful and like a freaking movement

(37:37):
chain. Really that's the Yeah,that's the best. That's the first thing
that came to mind. Yeah,I don't know, they just I mean,
they fought at the Ministry in theBattle of the Ministry, and they
did not They didn't they lost becauseBaltimore shows up. We got still lost.

(37:59):
Yeah. No, it's not herselfserious as death because she couldn't take
down Beello. No no, no, no, no. She was not
blaming herself for serious as death.She she wasn't blaming herself for serious as
death. That's what Molly and Harrythink happened. But she's really pining over
loopin. That's okay, that's fair, that's fair. But I mean arguably

(38:21):
if she had a taken out hercousin or her aunt, I don't remember
what the connection is there. I'mnot This is like not related to the
chapter. Let's bring it back wecan. Let's just bring it back to
listeners. Have you got thoughts dropthem in the comments, because I mean,
if anyone could give me a soidexample of one time that Moody or

(38:43):
Tongs did anything that was you know, or that's not memory Moody. Yeah,
that's not why that's sense, butit needs to be I RL Moody.
Yeah, I agree, it's real, like Moody, I don't know.
Yes, I think for me it'sbecause we didn't get to witness and
like Harry didn't actually like physically witnessit. Harry doesn't witness a lot of

(39:07):
things like this book is from hisperspective, So like if we don't,
if we we because Harry cannot witnessanything. Harry, because as though he
wears glasses, he has terribles.Doesn't Harry witness MODI he does take his

(39:34):
eye out, that's true. Ofwater, it's not. But yeah,
did knock over that umbrella stand shedid do that? So OK, let's
bring it back. Let's let's let'slet's bring it back. So, UM,
I have a question about the agethe underage tracker when yes, the

(40:04):
trace, thank you? When dowe think they implemented the what I'm calling
the Voldi tracker, so by likesaying his name, did you read that?
And you were like, what,it's the Valdi? Did anyone know
what I was talking about? Yeah, Alison, anyone? No? I
did? I thank you, Alison. Think I just needed one. I

(40:27):
just needed one, that's all.But I'm just curious when do they think
when do we think they implemented that, because I'm wondering if it was like
before the ministry fell also, andthis is kind of like the same question,
but like follow up, like whyare people because this isn't the first
time this came up in the book, why are they so sure that that
trace cannot be faulty? Like inmy head, I'm like, if there's

(40:49):
been multiple times throughout the book wherethey're like, oh, there's no way
that's impossible, And I'm like,you don't think that in all the history,
there wasn't one time they accidentally kepttracing someone not trace just goes away
when you're seventeen. Yeah, Ithink it's it's like attached to your age.
Yeah. The lexicon doesn't have muchon it. It pretty much just
says on the Harry Potter lexicon that, um, you have the trace until

(41:13):
you turn seventeen and that and Ithink that's all we we have on it.
But that doesn't make any sense becauseif you are so by saying that,
that sounds like when you are literallyborn, the trace has to be
on you. You can't but seebut that that can't be true because the
trace is only implemented by the Ministry, which is a government. It works

(41:36):
like you know pottermore, they dogive detail on like the registry. That's
what I was thinking too, thatlike writes all the names in the book.
Yeah, when they're born thing.It's like the same brand of magic
and see that along the lines.Yeah, me too. But I feel
like if you look at it fromthat perspective, then I don't know,

(41:57):
I just feel like it could havebeen faulty. That's all. Well,
we don't have a lot of informationon the trace, so we have not
a lot to go off of.So if you want us to pull something
on the spot. Right now,there's nothing that we can durn. We'll
just leave the question up in theair. That's fine. So, speaking
of the Ministry, we also findout that Scrimger died refusing to tell anyone

(42:24):
anything about Harry, which I thinkis a very interesting character wrinkle because he's
kind of been set up to thispoint as being like an antagonist, but
now he's kind of, you know, like dying a martyr. Basically,
how does this change how we thinkabout Scrimger as a whole. It doesn't

(42:47):
at all. He's really not me. Why not it's like Snape. I
don't think it's like Snape. Ithink it's actually the opposite. I think
it's because I've got and such asmall view of him that I almost just
honestly don't care that much. Ilike that. It did give me the

(43:07):
thought of like, awe, butit was that was like that was honestly
it. It was like awe,and I kind of kept it moving like
Kad did after Sirius died. Interestingbut like it's just like, oh he's
dead, here's a good thing abouthim. Kind of like a snape.
Also, he was never set upto be evil No, he's not.
He's not evil, but I couldhonestly care less about Scrimger. Like it's

(43:29):
not like, oh, this onething shot him to like my top ten
A favorite characters. Oh no,I'm not saying that. I just think
it's it's interesting. It's an interestinglike addition complexity to his character just as
a whole. I agree with that. So that's interesting. I saw it
as like, you know, likeif you're the captain of a ship and

(43:52):
the ship is going down, andso like, because you're the captain,
like you stay on. It's whatyou do. That's a good parallel.
I an honorable it's just what youdo. Um, I don't know what
it's called. Relationship. Yeah,parallel that's the word. But like,
yeah, it feels it feels likeI don't want to take away from what

(44:15):
he did, but it was almostlike, yeah, that's what he was
supposed to do. So everyone's asavage except Alison. She's the only one
who's like who had actually thought aboutlike we were like we were like,
oh, that's too bad. Ithink it just goes back to again what

(44:36):
I'm what I'm working on right nowin my UH grad program and with my
writing is that, like every charactershould have a why, you know,
like some backstory of why they doanything they do and that influences their decisions.
So I think I was just lookingat that for everyone and I'm like
really attuned to it right now.So I'm like, so, why did

(44:57):
scrimtre what's the backstory here? Hewas on Harry's side the whole time,
which I which he was, butI agree with Allison that he was he
was set up as an antagonist,and I feel like at this point there's
been so many gray characters in thebook. There's been like, oh,
you're a butthole, but you're notevil, and like, oh you're not

(45:19):
evil, but you're an Like there'sbeen so much gray at this point that
I see your point about just addingthat level of complexity to Time Curse.
You guys think Fudge would have donethe same? Oh, Fudge would have
folded in like half a second.Oh for sure, point of having it

(45:43):
in there is Er did better thanwhat Fudge would have done. Yeah,
yeah, Fudge would have folded inlike point two seconds. So like Harry
gets clarity on like, look,they're both like in the same role,
and so for that reason, they'recomparable, but like Fudge is a much
Scrimmager is redeemable because his actions weren'tlike he didn't completely this miss Harry.

(46:12):
Like it's like he kind of caredabout Harry. I don't know. I
like that. I like putting theredeemable pace in there. Yeah, did
we did, Harry? I alreadyforgot. Did Harry have thoughts or feelings
on that or no, He's they'rejust kind of shocked by it. There
was no liken this thing. Imean not even it's just like, wow,
he shocked, you know, um, like he can't really believe it,

(46:37):
and I you know that Actually,I just had a thought, this
may be the thing that helps HarryrEFInd confidence in the ministry because at this
point he's like the ministry sucks andthere against me, you know, um,
I mean even before the death theaterstake over. But that may be

(46:58):
a thing that makes him think,hey, maybe there's some redeemable things here
that could be built up, andmaybe that's why he ultimately kind of accepts
being an error and like joins theministry. That feels real stretchy. Well
yeah, I'm not saying it's likethe one thing that had did that it

(47:21):
was the first step, you know, like the first little seat. I
know what you mean. Anyway,Okay, here's the other thing. Speaking
of the ministry, I have gotto know what you guys think, because
obviously they're saying, Okay, HarryPotter is public enemy number one because he

(47:44):
was involved in Dumbledore's death. Buthow do they explain burning down houses and
using the Cruciati's curse and all theseterrible things so quickly, like in like
two days they've started doing this.Well, because when the ministry does it,
it's good. But if you dothat, it's bad. But at

(48:05):
this point they wait a minute,remind me, do they I know Voldemar
comes back in book five, butby book six, does the whole world
know that he's back? Yes,they know by the end of book So
at this point it's already been likea year. Yes, but he's still
could have shadowy, but they knowthat, like death leaders are active at

(48:27):
this point. Does he kill likethe parents of certain students in number three?
Yeah? But isn't it really hushhushed still, isn't it? I
feel like it doesn't it's still notcompletely confirmed yet like to the public.
I mean, like there's not enough. It's only an I mean, it's
such a small amount that so manypeople can still be in denial at this

(48:50):
pure that's true. But Alison,this question has bugged me since the first
time I ever read this series,and listeners, I would love to hear
your thoughts as well, because Ihave always wondered the exact same thing.
Like, I mean, I'm atit. I'm not saying that I expect
everyone to jump up and be ahero, but that was weird, and
I know that that isn't this isn'tthis chapter. But even when they like

(49:12):
go to the ministry and they seeall the stuff that they're doing, I'm
like, how would you just startcoming to work two days later and just
start like like that has always beenreally really weird to me. Do we
think they could have possibly done theimperious I mean, curs, they don't
think they could have done something thatBig Luvin says later, right, And

(49:36):
I have this this point a littlebit later, that the coup is honestly
pretty brilliant if it's if you know, I mean, it's evil, but
it's it's a brilliant, pretty brilliantcoup. They take over without really making
it obvious, but there's so muchdistrust out there that people even feel like
they can't even talk openly. ButI still have a really hard time and

(50:00):
I try, and maybe maybe peoplehave shown this, And you know,
I love if listeners you have somelike concrete historical examples, because I mean,
I think the thing we compare thistakeover to all the time is Nazism,
right, the real life parallel.So if anybody has like concrete examples

(50:22):
of how quickly like public public opinionchanged in those things, if they can
like point out that, because it'sjust that the timeline is just so short
to me to go from like webelieve Harry Potter too, Harry Potter is
terrible, and we're going to breakdown everybody's house who's associated with him looking

(50:45):
for him, and everybody's just goingto be fine with that. But I
really struggle to accept this, andI think that for me, it's like
the general public, I still thinkit's weird, but I could, I
could. I feel like you canmake the argument. What really blows my
mind is the ministry employees, Likehow is it that you just go to

(51:07):
work the next day and you're justprinting these papers about how muggle Borns are
like, that's so weird. Imagineyour manager just like you go to work
tomorrow where they're like, yeah,so I need you to write up a
whole thing on how X group ofhumans we're talking about humans here, like
and like, that's weird. Imean, I think I think the obvious

(51:30):
answer is plot. But I Alicesaid we were on the same page or
that, Like every time I readthat, I'm like that I just needed
something else there that was just tooconvenient. Well, it could have been
something like starting off small, slowlybuilding it too, like something as big
as Muggles are evil, But theyclearly didn't start off small because that wasn't

(51:52):
might have just we Harry was notworking at the ministry, and we do
not know when did the statute change, right, yeah, it changes later.
Um, I think it changes afterbecause they see it when they break
in, But we don't know whenit changes. We only know when we
saw it. Because that feels likea big thing, like a big shift,
you know, it's not like anice subtle, gradual thing like you're

(52:14):
yeah, yeah, I I wonder. I mean, for the ministry employees,
my biggest thought is it's obviously it'sfear. It's fear if you say
anything, you or your family couldget you know, accused next or you
could lose your job, and thenhow are you going to care for your
family? You know, I canI can see that, I think.

(52:37):
So. Are you not surprised thatlike they didn't just like not all of
them obviously, but some people didn't, like quit and like flee. Oh.
I'm sure some people that like theymight die, yeah, because they
have the first Wizarding War and they'relike, okay, we're like in the

(52:57):
second one. And I think too. I mean, yeah, it's it's
one of those tough I'm sure somepeople quit and left. Like especially if
you were muggle Born and this stuffwas going around, I'd be like,
yeah, I'm now we're getting outof here or hopefully you like see the
writing on the wall and you're likewe're getting out of here. Yeah,
because because man, because there hasto have been little things that led up
to this. It's the Harry Well, the muggle Born stuff. The hairy

(53:22):
stuff specifically is the stuff that getsme. It's weird. There's a delay
when the news the report we're riderslike slandering Harry for or suggesting he killed
Dumbledore to the public. That doesn'thappen until like, like, don't we
get that breaking news? And yeah, like and that's why I'm confused,
right, so it's been months orweeks. Yeah, But I don't think

(53:45):
it was ever a case where everyonewas team Harry. It was probably always
divided, Like there was never apoint where it was like Harry was one
hundred percent of the villain or onehundred percent the hero. There were always
some people who believe him and somepeople who didn't. So I don't necessarily
think it was it was always likea three sixty because I feel like they
made it very clear that a lotof people were in denial because nobody wanted

(54:08):
to believe that this was happening againthirteen years later, like people were I
mean, how long it took seemedjust I mean, people were still scared
to say the name. But that'sinteresting. I wonder how many more years
would have needed to go by beforethey weren't afraid to say the name anyways.
Yeah, I just don't think itwas ever really like a full three
sixty. There were always some peoplewho believe Harry and some people who didn't,

(54:31):
and overall I mean ignorance is bliss, I guess, yeah, well,
and it's something that kind of likea parallel with today. This could
also be very wrong of like whatI'm like thinking of it, like not
a parallel, but like so inthe States, there's like a lot of

(54:52):
like anti transit, anti LGBT lawsthat are being passed throughout the country,
and I personally don't think a lotof people know about it, just because
as a gay man, it's allover my social media. I'm very aware
of the laws that have passed inthe South. And I was at a

(55:15):
drag brunch on Sunday, the Sundaybefore recording this, and there's this group
of straight girls next to us,and one of the drag queens was talking
about, Oh, make sure tocome and a vote in the Chicago mayoral
election runoff that's happening soon. Idon't know when, because like there's kind

(55:37):
of a candidate who's very anti LGBT, and we have seen what has happened
and we are we don't know whatthat candidate could do to the city of
Chicago. And just educating the girlsat the table next to me about just

(55:59):
what has happened in the South andlike, oh, if you go to
Nashville for your bachelorette party, likeyou really can't. You won't be seeing
drag queens like out and about becausea child might see them and like,
oh, that's the devil incarnate rightthere. I mean, I think it
does. It fits with the ideaof like echo chambers, you know that

(56:22):
we all kind of live in.And definitely, I mean, if we
remember these books are taking place inthe nineties, you know, there's less
of that kind of like social mediaand stuff, but still people just have
like their there're certain communities they're in, you know. Yeah, so I

(56:42):
guess that does make sense if you'rejust like a part of the Wizarding Worlds
and you don't know Harry personally orhave any connection, I guess yeah.
It adds color to the general overall, like gives Bianca's point with like,
you know, there's always some thateven some that don't. And even within
those, it's not like black andwhite. There are people who you know,

(57:05):
would if they knew more or andit's just being like educated on the
topic because there are things going onthat I'm just unaware of because like I
just really don't know about. Yeah, and it's probably the same in the
result because you can't know everything.Like that's just being human, right,
especially with only one media and thepeople are it's part to be well.

(57:28):
Though. We could argue that thevisiting world is significantly smaller than definitely,
but then that will probably just putthis conversation in circle. So that's not
we haven't even made it to loopit. Yeah, but I mean talking
about these changes of the ministry too. I think the hairy thing is different
from the muggle born thing, whichthe muggleborn regisy thing, like it's not

(57:52):
the anti semitism one O one basically, like it is a clear parallel the
use of research as a reason.I had kind of forgotten about that that
they were like the Department of Mysteriesis saying this blah blah blah and it
makes zero sense and they pick outthe flaw in it in like two seconds.

(58:13):
They're like, if you can stealmagic, there'd be no squibs.
This makes no sense, right,Um, But I do have to say
this moment where Ron says, I'lltell everyone Hermione's my cousin. I'll help
her, like and Hermione's like,no, it's okay. And Hermione,
and Ron's like, no, Iwill help you memorize my family tree,
like I will do anything to makesure you are safe, like fight me,

(58:35):
Ron, haters. This is sucha good moment. This is a
good, wonderful Ron moment. Thisis Ron at his core. I will
fight you. That's a good moment. Like he loves Hermione. I'm not
saying like love like in a romanticway, like I know they get together,
but like he doesn't want her todie. Yeah, so he wants

(58:57):
to which is very sweet and likekind of going back with like the conversation
about like the Nazism thing, likeVoldemart has controlled the ministry and Hogwarts,
so like he's controlling the Hogwarts students, which is essentially like Hitler's youth,
just because it's easier to brainwash achild than an adult. Oh my gosh,

(59:23):
that line that where Harry thinks abouteleven year olds who just got their
supplies and are so excited to goto Hogwarts and he's like they don't know
that they'll never see it, orthat they could never even see their families
again or anything. That one getsme every time, Like, oh,

(59:45):
the timeline of that though, likekind of confuses me because so they just
got their Hogwarts letters, Like they'restill getting letters even though they're mobile borns,
like they haven't changed. Well,if they've been sent out before,
which I think they usually get sentout a little bit before Harry's birthday or

(01:00:06):
well, no, it's a littlebit after. Is that weight because it's
birthday August? Were definitely in Augustat this point, Yeah, because the
wedding in Harry's birthday are back backWait, no, Harry's birthday and then
the wedding is August first, Ibelieve. I think that's correct. I
need to look at the calendar again, but Alexicon, that's the day.

(01:00:30):
Yeah, and so we're like earlyAugust. Do you want to do them?
Yeah? Yeah, I'm so likedo they all do all first years?
Just like get their letter on youknow what, late July or is
it like stag or whenever they turneleven. I think some of it has
to do two with remember that somebodyusually goes to muggle Borne's houses to explain

(01:00:55):
people just well maybe they did,maybe there were some that did earlier in
the summer. Harry's convinced that,like there are some and like with those
kids. So do you think theyjust like went to ask a Band?
I don't Know's a good question.Yeah, like what next? Oh that's

(01:01:17):
horrifying. Well because okay, wait, so when they're in the ministry and
they're trying to save Ron's not Ron'swife Mary Katam, right, was she
going to be sent to ask aBan? I believe so. I believe
so because she's muggle Born, soshe clearly stole her A slightly different because
she's an adult obviously, but like, yeah, so like with the kids,

(01:01:38):
I don't know, Well, thekids don't have a longed yet.
Yeah, so, like they haven'tstolen anything different crime, it's not a
crime. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm sorry this is this is a
weird fan fic to want, butyou guys, I want the fan fic
of everybody in Askaban at that time, and like these muggle borns like band

(01:02:00):
ending together almost like zombie apocalypse moviestyle there. Yeah, dementias are there,
some are not because they've joined Voldemort'sside, but well they've all joined
his side, so obviously they'd bedoing what he wants in Aska band,
right, Yeah, they split upnow they all have to like some like

(01:02:20):
five are just like outside of Askaband like being like thanks, that's a
very specific number. Sorry. Thelast thing too, that I thought was
kind of interesting about this ministry takeoverbefore we go to the next scene,
we've got here because we've we've beenhere for over an hour and we're still

(01:02:44):
talking you. We're like two scenesin. We learned that the new minister
is Pious thickness Um, which isanother one of these names where it's like,
yeah, this is very obvious,same about what your point is,
because pious comes from the word piouspious, which can mean devoutly religious,
making a hypocriticals display of virtue,or sincere but unlikely to be fulfilled like

(01:03:07):
a hope, which is very fittingfor this very puppet leader. And thickness
is another pretty obvious one. Youknow. Thick is British slang for like
stupid, but I think it's actuallyalso a real surname, which kind of
sucks for them because there seems tobe a family that originates from Straffordshire and

(01:03:32):
traces their anstress try back to theNorman conquest with this last name that I
found, So I was like,oh, that's unfortunate, but anyway,
so after we learn about the ministry, we get loop in, and so
it's time it's time to dive intolupin. I One thing I really love

(01:04:00):
is, you know, once ateacher, always a teacher. It doesn't
leave you. Your teacher voice isalways going to be there. Yeah,
You're like, here, I'm takingin control of this situation. I'm going
to teach you who was always there. So that made me laugh. He's
like, oh yeah, okay,Yeah, well I think that's part of
the reason why Ron and Hermione arerelaxed once they find out hits himp.

(01:04:24):
You know, it's like when youfirst become an adult and you're like,
I don't know what to do.I need an adult, and then you're
like, shoot, I am anadult, I need a more adult adult's
adult. Yeah. Well, he'sdefinitely definitely was that type of person with
the Marauders when they were like growingup. He was the more responsible one.
Yeah. Um. I also likedit caught this description when they go

(01:04:48):
into the kitchen where it says thatHermione lights a fire and it gives the
illusion of coziness, which is fascinatingbecause it's again kind of hinting at what's
gonna go down here? Right,they think, oh, we've got a
real adult here. They're going tobe here to help. You know,

(01:05:09):
we trust remus, he's never ledus astray, and yet there's this hint
of this is not going to bewhat we wanted to be. Nahum,
I thought it was neat the littledetail because like that's totally what we do,
like when we have like people over, like guests for like dinner,
just like as normal people were like, Oh, we're gonna clean up or

(01:05:30):
like we're gonna like make the ambiancelike yeaher than what you would do for
yourself. I guess like I thoughtit was that they try to put for
us like more of your best self, Like they don't need to know I
didn't wash the dishes last night thatlet me put up that laundry. There's
there's this accountability for that. Yeah, it was just like it's cute,
but it's also kind of sad thatthey wouldn't like do that for themselves,

(01:05:53):
like you're living there too, youcould. I mean they're like se and
they just got there. I mean, how to give them a little bit
of a break. They're doing theirbest, they're they're they're doing their best.
Okay, Ron's playing with that deluminator, determined to figure it out.
Well, they're they just don't knowwhat they're supposed to do. And I

(01:06:15):
think they see Remus as the teacherto tell them the assignment. Yeah,
a teacher almost a father figure insome ways, you know, because they
didn't even graduate school, right,It wasn't even like that mutual preparation of
like, oh, I'm about togo into the like they were like thrown
into it. I mean, arguablythey did have like a little bit of

(01:06:39):
time to prepare, but they didn'thave like that full year if you know,
when you're like a senior and you'relike, yeah, you know,
they didn't really have a lot.And they also went from Molly Weasley's very
well run house where she like haseverything going, you know, all the
time for her big family. Too. We don't know how to take care
of ourselves. Yeah, I meanit's like, as honestly, did they

(01:07:00):
even think about the food. Iknow there's that law or whatever, but
I believe that you can multiply it, right, so arguably you can even
be like stuff in that bag.Yeah, I'm not sure. I think
she had some stuff but you canmultiply food. Yeah, that's what I'm
saying. Though. That wouldn't makesense though, because if you can multiply
food, then why were they thenwhy were they ever having food issues?

(01:07:24):
I know this is another chapter,but um, maybe it's hard to multiply
food. Nothing's hard for hermione.I'm kidding. I know that's not true.
Yeah, nothing relevant. I mean, wow, we're not going to
go there. The shade has started. We're already going to fight about lupin,

(01:07:45):
so we can't fight about quidage.Yes, oh man, no,
I like quidage. I'm kidding.Yeah, you had another question. Yeah,
I just wanted to, like brieflyjust logistically, right, has been
on the run for three days,right, and it's the UK. It's
like what summer? He's got threebutter beers just wear like honestly, like

(01:08:12):
how much he's like on the run. And I don't know. I guess
that tells me that they have caps, right, like beer bottles, or
maybe they're in I think so becauseI think as a child, like my
first like mental image, which wasridiculous, was just like an open like
jug of like coffee, Like ohmy god, It's like no one wants

(01:08:38):
that they all come like that.I completely missed that, So I literally
just read that and thought it wasso I completely when did this happen?
Yeah, like, how did helike literally did he need the wedding?
Oh? Oh wait, you knowwhat I need? I need to remember
some butter beer because when we getthere, because well, I see,

(01:09:01):
I wonder if it's funny that yousay that, because I wonder if he
has like a satchel or something underneathhis cloak that we just can't see,
because he had to eat something atsome point too, So maybe he like
it was part of his emergency supply. Maybe he spiked it because he wanted
to get them drunk so he couldprepare them for the bribe. That's terrible.

(01:09:26):
I don't know. It is funnythough, because it is very much
kind of like you know when peoplelike go to someone's house and they bring
like a dish for the meal ora bottle of wine, yeah, or
something. It's so it's funny thatyou mentioned before the like Hermione trying to
clean up and make it more homeybecause they have a guest, and like
the guest is also trying to dothose same kind of manners. Yeah.

(01:09:53):
Nice. I didn't even up onthat. Yeah, that is very cute.
Another thing that has all he's reallystood out to me with this scene
is this is one of the firsttimes I think Harry really looks at Remus
as as an equal more Um andstarts to see beyond just his teacher that
he's always known Um. I mean, it's the first time that they really

(01:10:15):
start calling him Remus in dialogue.The narrative. The narration stays with Lupin
More, but the characters use hisfirst name More, which is fascinating,
and hermione age uses his first name. I remember graduating high school and then

(01:10:39):
some teachers being like, Oh,call me like this now because we're colleagues,
and I thought that was just oh, I still can't do that.
I can't do that. I waslike, I've never had a tea job.
There's like as soon as we're graduated, I like saw them and they're
like, oh, you can callme this now, and I was like,
no, I will not. That'snot your name. Now. You
have a role in my life andyou can't take that back now. But

(01:11:02):
I guess Remus is a little bitdifferent because he wasn't just their teacher.
He was also one of Harry's parentsbest friends, you know, and Serious's
best friend. And he's also likehe's like straddling this quarter. But yeah,
but what is so I was thinkingabout other adults in the series or

(01:11:24):
like they never like write like McGonagall, you know, Doubledoor, Like there's
people like missus Weasley would slap them. Okay, that's fair, But what
I'm saying is she basically does toremind there are a lot of other adults
in the books were like they neverdid that. They continue to call them

(01:11:45):
their last name. So when isit even really because you're saying that they
look at him as more as anequal. And I'm not saying that it's
supposed to be a bad thing,but I feel like I guess that actually
is the Yeah, I was gonnasay, I would see, That's what
I was thinking. I was likemore of almost like a friend. Wait,
no, no, no, no, Haggard's his last name. Yeah
exactly, So like it's not consistent. I think it's the point I'm trying

(01:12:10):
to make because you have you know, obviously he called Serious serious and even
though he looked at him as afather figure and then you know, obviously
we have like Lupin, who wasI don't know, I mean obviously he
was a teacher, who was ateacher serious was never a Teacher'd be really
weird if they called him mister Black. Okay, that's true. There is
there is a moment where it shiftsin Prisoner Rastaban from referring to him as

(01:12:34):
black all the time and starting torefer to him as serious. Oh,
isn't that kind of one. He'sgood, Yes, that the moment Harry
finds out the truth behind that.You see that shift in how he's referred
both in the dialogue and in thenarration for serious, which is fascinating.
Well, then what about Hagrid,Like why did they always call him Hagrid?

(01:12:55):
Because I think just because he tellsthem to call him Haggard, because
every one just calls him Hagrid.But it's not. But even like Draco
Malfoy, like they call him Malfoy, which is his last name. Well,
yes, because that's um I thinkthat's that's a very like British school
tradition of referring to people of thetime. It's also yeah, like like

(01:13:19):
some boys just go by their lastname, which is weird. So I
just feel like it's not consistent.That's the only celebrity. Yeah, well,
I mean I guess it's it dependson the character too, you know.
I mean that's people are like thattoo. I think the point being
would be, like it was anintentional decision in the third book, like

(01:13:43):
he said Alison, like yeah,which is from black to series like and
again here like this is clearly intentional, like she has editors at this point,
you know, like people are lookingat this. This is like a
this is conscience, like a consciousdecision. Yeah. And what was the
reason then? Was it to like, I mean what I came up with
was I don't know. I'm willingto debate or hear other others' is input,

(01:14:04):
but like, is it to contrastHermione being like more grown up developed
than Run. And that's why Idon't think it's about Ron. I think
it's more about Harry and I thinko'harmony could have arguably even been more as

(01:14:25):
an act as like an afterthought.I think it's primarily about Harry and Lupin
because they're like the they even youknow, for them, even though it
wasn't a friendship, because you know, he was his teacher in a way,
it was right. I think allof us have had at least one
teacher where they're not your friend.They're not gonna be like, hey,
let's go out Friday night, butlike they're not just your teacher. Yeah,

(01:14:45):
yeah, I mean I have severalfrom high school that, like,
there's one the woodshop teacher from ourhigh schools a family friend, like because
he taught all of us and justanyway. But what we do see speaking
Hermione, though, is that Hermioneonce again is the is the sensitive one
who picks up on the emotional issues. Imagine that happening here because there are

(01:15:11):
a lot of emotional issues going onhere. Yeah, and we gotta we
got a lot of thoughts in here. Last everyone go for it because I
I we're gonna we're gonna debate becauseI have so many thoughts about what's going
on here. So my first questionis if you think about the words that

(01:15:33):
are used to describe loop In andlike the way like he's acting or I
don't remember it verbatim, but Iknow the words like cold and indifferent we're
used whenever, and this is literallywhen talking about talks and his family and
the bribe, And I just thoughtthat it was interesting that it wasn't like,

(01:15:55):
oh, we had a look oflike anguish or like hopelessness or fear,
because to me that actually would havegarnered sympathy from the readers. But
to specifically say that he looked coldand indifferent, it's almost like it was
intentionally set up to be like,you know, homeboy was wrong, Like
that's just that's how Alison's face islike, no, you go ahead,

(01:16:18):
because because he's wrong. Yes,he's wrong. But I think when we
understand Lupin's backstory and again going backto this, why why is he making
these decisions, it's so clear thatright now he is shutting everything down because
Lupen is being driven by fear rightnow, driven by his worst fears and

(01:16:41):
his self hatred. In this entireincident, she I had like a whole
bunch of notes. She we knowjust from the books and from his longer
backstory that was published on Pottermore,that he has such an internalized hatred of

(01:17:01):
himself and his condition as a werewolffrom his whole life, that she will
his kind of default is shut peopleout. And I think especially some of
the arrested development that I think allthe marauders, to all the surviving marauders

(01:17:23):
I should say, suffer from becauseof the trauma that happened to them,
really leads to his impulsiveness and hischoice to run instead of kind of confront
why he's afraid. And I thinkhis his background has taught him this is

(01:17:44):
his big misbelief. Lupin's big misbeliefis that he is not worth loving and
he is less than and he feelslike he's gone too far by letting Tonks
in. I mean, his experiencehas taught him that if you let people
in, bad things happen, becausethat's basically what happened with his best friends,

(01:18:05):
right, And so that's his bigmisbelief. And he's fallen in love
with Tonks, and I think hefeels like he let it go too far?
Right, What are the things thathappen whenever he let his best friends
in? All the yeah, allthe danger he could have put them in,
um, but none of them diedat all related to him being aware
Wolf. Everything was completely unrelated tothem. No, no, but he

(01:18:29):
thinks that, yeah, yeah,it still all gets mixed up into this
big misbelief that if they didn't meetLupin, they would still be alive,
that is what essentially to some degree, Yeah, he thinks I don't think
that, well, they wouldn't be. They wouldn't be. I think he
thinks, um, he has someto blame because he thinks they couldn't trust

(01:18:54):
him because he was a werewolf whenthey did the u um an amazing Fidelia's
charm, I couldn't think the wordum, right, And so he thinks,
well, they couldn't trust me becauseI'm aware wolf, so they didn't
tell me And so wait where wasthat? When was that said? It's
implied in Prisoner and and he hasall this self hatred. I mean we

(01:19:17):
talked a little bit a bit earlierabout how he won't even do a corporeal
patronis just because it happens to bea wolf, not aware wolf, just
a normal wolf. But that's closeenough. I mean, we know that
his father is alive during the books, at least to some degree, and
yet he like stays away from him. Lupin is so man, it's it's

(01:19:42):
really sad. Um. Yeah,Alison, I think the father thing is
the best defense for your argument there, right, Yeah, like of letting
people in, like he doesn't lethis father. Sorry, no, no,
no, that's fine, that's no, because it's it's true. And
I think this drives his character choicesand he's so I think he does really
love Tonks and so he thinks Ilove her so much, I should not

(01:20:05):
be near her because I'm a dangerand I've ruined her life. And I
mean he even refers to the factthat they're having a baby as my kind
don't breed, like yeah, oh, and kind of going off of that
my kind don't breed thing, becausethere's just the huge parallel with like antherapy

(01:20:30):
and HIV and AIDS. Yes,I think Lupin kind of sees it as
he really doesn't know what's going tohappen to Teddy. Yeah, Like he's
like, is he going to beawarewolf? And that I kind of see
it as like if someone who canget pregnant is pregnant but they have HIV,

(01:20:53):
they might think they are going topass that on to the baby,
so they might want they might reallywant a kid, but they're like,
I don't want to bring a kidthat has HIV, so they might abort
it because they don't want that tobe the reason why someone comes into this
world with this condition, though welike there are so many treatments out there

(01:21:15):
to like really prevent the transmission ofHIV to an unborn child. Well,
and there's such a stigma in theWizarding World too with Wearable specifically that you
know they're they're bad and they're terribleand no one wants to be around them.
And yeah, I mean that's Lupinhas so much of a why at

(01:21:38):
this moment where I think I thinkLupin in some ways was hoping to die
during this war because mielief, wellbecause because his misbelief was telling him everything
would be better for the people youlove if that happened, which is absolutely

(01:21:59):
heartbreaking. Well, I think alsobecause he just was never had this like
this entire series, he was justalways miserable, like I don't know how
many people will y'all. And thenalso listeners recall in the last Twilight movie,
Breaking Dawn part two, when Idon't know if it was Dmitri,
but one of them right right beforethis wasn't like the obviously they didn't actually

(01:22:20):
die, but this was like rightbefore I don't remember, someone was about
to kill them and then he goesFinally, I literally remember voice noting cat
and being like that is exactly howI felt that Lupin felt when he died,
Like he was just like, thankGod, this is over. And
I mean, I shouldn't laugh,it's not funny, but I'm just I'm
making the point because and I knowthat at this point we're kind of all

(01:22:43):
over the place with the dog becausequestion. So, my question was specifically
about him coming across as cold andindifferent because to me, having all of
this self hatred and all of this, you know, things that happened growing
up, doesn't necessarily mean that whenyou're talking about leaving your wife and child

(01:23:09):
that you come across as cold andindifferent. And as much as I am
absolutely not a Snape fan, Ikind of feel like everything you're saying,
there's somebody else over there who canmake that exact same argument for a Snape.
And for the record, I agreewith everything you're saying about, like
the self hatred and how it's sodeeply rooted. I agree with all of
that. I just think that itstill doesn't it doesn't excuse what he did.

(01:23:31):
I feel like the argument is builtup like, oh, well,
because he has this why and oh, well I didn't know he could bread
Well guess what, like you couldhave prevented that, like you now you've
been pregnated a woman. You're talkingabout leaving a woman and a child.
And I just feel like the defensealways goes to loop in because he hates
himself. But I'm like, he'snot the only person who hated himself.

(01:23:54):
You don't get to get somebody pregnantand trying to leave just because you hate
yourself. I definitely think you're right, and I don't think it's excusing him.
I think it's just understanding. AndI think the difference that happens is
that he does see his mistakes andhe goes back and that's the real big
thing. And I think Harry helpshim kind of see that that and again

(01:24:16):
I think he goes back to thatkind of arrested development that the marauders and
State have because you're right, You'reright, they're all kind of stuck in
need therapy. A loving harmione islike the only I mean, think about
the people in this theory. Mostof these people had screwed up childhoods.
They look they all look differently.It's a different level of screwed up.

(01:24:38):
But there's so many people who hada screwed up childhood and I feel like,
and I can't speak for you know, everyone obviously, and Leah,
I actually don't know. Are youlike, are you like hardcore Lupin fan?
Are you anti Lupin? Or areyou in the middle. My thoughts
on Lyuben, I don't. Ithink I'm like projecting on him, but
I'm impatient by his character, likehis lack of like coming to terms with

(01:25:01):
like your self. Pity is abarrier you're creating for yourself. And yes
it's imposed by like society, andlike I understand where it came from,
and it's not his fault that itBut there comes a time I think when
you I want to sound bad.I feel like it might be an unpopular
opinion, but it's like kind oflike tough love, like these are your

(01:25:25):
cards seat and you've got to youknow, you you need to address He
needs to address his internal demons,and he never does and so makes me
patient. I think we see himgo through some waves of getting there almost.
I think the times that he seemshappier, you know, I think
those are the times where he's startingto get there. But again, I

(01:25:47):
think this whole war In situation keepshim back from doing that work that he
needs to do, which is unfortunate. I think he was doing really well
well up until Tonk's got pregnant,and then what do you mean really well?
Best of him? Because don't theyeven say in the book that he

(01:26:10):
never like he had no point?Did he ever look happy to be married
to her? Well, I justI feel like I'm looking, I'm looking,
I'm looking, I'm looking. Ingeneral, I think that my challenge,
my problem with there being so muchloop and love in the world.
It's it's actually very similar to whatI said about Tongs and Moody is like,

(01:26:31):
where's the evidence outside of Lupin beinga great teacher. I will give
him that he was a great teacher. You know, he taught Harry had
to do a patronus. His classwas really fun. And I'm not saying
that educators are biased because of that, but I'm just saying, outside of
Lupin being a great teacher, whatelse did Lupin do in this entire series
that was great? Like, again, I think where's the evidence? I

(01:26:55):
think he's I mean, he's atie to James Lily, which is very
important for Harry. Um, thatdoesn't make him great. I think I
think it makes him Peter Pettigrew withthe tie to James and Lily. Yes,
but but Remiss is a an almostmore stable which considering all we talked

(01:27:15):
about, it's kind of funny,but he's definitely more stable than Serious is
as a tie in a lot ofways. And he was a mentor to
Harry and yeah, and that wasabout it. I think, thank you,
That is all I have been tryingto say. It's like I don't
and I don't even hate Lubin.Let me just say that I don't.
I think that his character is interesting, but I'm always intrigued by the people

(01:27:40):
who are so like put him ona pedestal, because outside of book three,
when he was a great teacher,there was nothing else I saw throughout
the entire series other and then andthen I feel like and obviously this is
of course tied to how it waswritten and that and that was um the
other thing that I was going tobring up, Like I just thought it
was a little manipulative to be like, oh Dumbledore would have wanted this,

(01:28:00):
and you know, like that waslike to me, it was just I
understand, like he's human, hehas a right to have like an emotional
reaction. I get it, Likehe was like I even understand the whole
perspective of he thought that he wasdoing the thing that did you by leave
right like Harry was gonna leave atsome point too, to protect people.
I get all of that. Ijust think that I don't I just don't

(01:28:25):
understand why he could. He justgets such a pass for having a crappy
childhood when so many people in thisstory had a crappy childhood and they got
over it and still needed to dowhat needed to be done. And this
man is older and then got someonepregnant. Oh I didn't know that we
could breed. Well you took thatrisk, didn't you. Well he's done
what married people do, which Iknow we can't talk about in the podcast.

(01:28:46):
But and me, it's just Idon't know. To me and I'm
not I mean, I sound realtriggered right now, but I just think,
like, you know, you justthink about how like in real life,
this is a thing, right,Like people get people pregnant and then
they skip out on that responsibility whenin reality, you could have skipped out
on that responsibility with a preventative methodfor him to have all of these feelings

(01:29:08):
now after he's already pregnant. Ireally just kind of feel like, how
dare you? And you know thesekids are alone, you know that they
want help, and you're like,oh, this is what your dad would
want, this is what doubledore andwant. Let me come with you.
No, you're just he's having amidlife crisis. Yeah, well but no,
but yeah, I mean he's alsohe's only in about as mid thirties.
Well, but like I feel likeI've had like twelve midlife crisis.

(01:29:30):
Oh, I mean that's true.That's true, which means that when when
you turn fifty, we need tocheck in because you're gonna be like,
Okay, those who are not midlife crisis now I am really I do
think though, that's actually the momentwhere Harry sees what Lupin is trying to
do and why it's a problem.Is the moment Lupin brings up James,

(01:29:53):
because that triggers Harry to being like, um so, Harry's great trauma,
right is the loss of his parentsand the loss of his family, family
and closeness is Harry's like lifelong goal, right, we know that is his
heart's desire is family. And sothe moment that Lupin brings up James and
says James would have wanted me todo this, Harry is like, oh,

(01:30:15):
nah, because James would not beokay at least the James and Harry's
head would not be okay with splittingup a family. And so that's the
moment that Harry is like, yeah, we want help, but I'm also
not willing to let that happen tosomebody else. And so again it's there,

(01:30:35):
it's their desires and their misbeliefs,and they clash here and it all
I think comes down to that momentwhere he says James would have wanted me
to come with you, and Harryis like, oh, don't even bring
that up because this is a problem. And that's that's almost like an overarching

(01:30:55):
question in the series is what wouldHarry's parents think, What would they do?
Would they be supportive? I wasjust yeah, not only like using
the post mortem like sort of wouldbe wishes of the dead characters, Like
I feel like that's not just Jan's, it's it's Dumbledore too, Like yeah,
throughout this entire book, they're sortof operating based on what Dumbledore would

(01:31:17):
have wanted or would have intended.And here, James, I don't know
if that's like I'm just thinking ofthis now, so like I don't know
if it's throughout the rest of theseries where like that consideration of like a
dead person's wishes, like respecting whatthey would like what Harry bringing up his
mom to convince Slughorn. Yeah,it's yeah, I mean it's it's definitely

(01:31:40):
used throughout the series, and II really think again, a large part
of it is really the way thatit's written. I think that if Lupin
had have come in there and hewas very honest with him, honest with
them about how he was feeling,I think it's cold, It's could have
gone so differently. But I thinkthat the way he went about it was
just very cowardly and even says thatlike he couldn't even look them in the

(01:32:02):
eye. I just and again likeobviously he was having a human moment,
right, humans have human moment.We all got things that we're not browed
of. I get that, butagain, the way it was written,
it was just really disgusting. Tome to be reading it. I was
like, Lupin, what are you? These are children, Like, that's
what are you doing right now?That's why I think he doesn't why he's

(01:32:25):
not honest with them, because firstof all, I don't think he's being
honest with himself. I think he'strying to shut down all of his emotions
in a way. That's why heseems like cold and indifferent. But I
also think he's also not seeing themas growing up in a way, right,
He's still seeing them as kind ofI need to be your guardian,
I need to protect you, andthat would be a mission that would make
my life worth it. Right.And so when these kids come back at

(01:32:49):
him, and when Harry especially islike, that's not the right thing to
do, I think Lupin, deepdown inside knows that he's not doing the
right thing, but it takes Harryhauling him out on it for him to
actually face up to that and belike, yeah, I'm not doing the
right thing. I need to Ineed to reevaluate and it's it's worth those
things too. Like the way hewent about it, like he didn't seem

(01:33:12):
to have a plan to Like whenhe was going to reveal that he and
Talks were pregnant. I don't thinkthat's yeah, what was his game plan
for that? Like they were youknow, the whole thing was just too
weird. And I know that he'snot a communications teacher, and arguably he
was only a teacher for one year, which doesn't mean you can't call yourself
a teacher. But I'm just sayinghe didn't have a ton of experience.
But I was just disappointed because Ifelt like he could have he could have

(01:33:35):
approached it better. He could havehad his set of bullet points of like
why and like it's something, buthe's just like, oh, yeah,
Thoms is pregnant, by the way, can I come with you? And
it was literally like whip blash.You were like, what did you just
say? And they're two completely they'recontradicting statements. You just announced what in

(01:33:57):
theory ask a parent. I'm notone, so I don't know. You
just announced that one of the happiestin theory moments of your life. And
then you're like, in the immediatelyyou jumped to I want to leave,
And I guess, if anything,I'm more so just curious about why it
was written that way, because Itliterally was like it was written for us
to be upset about it, becauseI do think that if he had to

(01:34:19):
just told them, like, youknow, Tons is pregnant and you know,
I've just been having a lot ofyou know, blah blah blah,
I think that it just could haveIt would have been received differently and there
would be a lot more like empathy. But the way that he did it
was just it was just the opposite. Like they built him up in this
series. It's like the mature likeyou were even saying with the Marauders,

(01:34:41):
right, like you're the mature person, Like he's always been the most level
headed, and like, obviously evenif you are really level headed, again,
you're entitled to your human moments.But the fact that your human moments
involved you bringing in like kids,and again like that, the whole thing
with the dad, I don't know, it was just it wasn't a good
look. I think. I thinkwe're supposed to be disappointed in him.

(01:35:04):
I really do think we are,because I disappointed or disgusted, because I
would have been disappointed regardless somewhere,I mean somewhere between, because I think
a big part of this book isseeing heroes right, like Harry's heroes and
the people that he's looked up toseeing them as actual humans, right and

(01:35:24):
seeing their flaws, And that's partof it. I mean, it's a
it's a very like big part ofgrowing up, right as you start to
see the adults in your life andthe people you've looked up to, you
start to see that they're not perfect. And so I mean he sees this
this Dumbledore, Um, he definitelysees this for serious with the whole creature
situation. He gets it with Lupinum, he gets it a little bit,

(01:35:46):
well, not as much in thisone with his parents, because he's kind
of already gotten that, you know. He starts to see the human complexities
of the people that he has reallylooked to to tell him what to do
in life, and he has tofigure out that they're not always gonna be
right. I think we could probablydebate this until we're blue into face,

(01:36:08):
so we should probably just I wouldn'teven say I agree to disagree, because
I do think we actually agree onlike I mean again, I agree with
everything you said. Um, it'sjust and we age. Like the way
it was written, it was definitelyset up to show a huge character flaw.
So yeah, yeah, listeners byall means, I think it's it's

(01:36:30):
we like agree on the basic thingsthat are happening, but our reactions to
that are different. We feel aboutI agree, you give a lot more
empathy than I do. I'm like, I'm like, get over it.
Well, But so lup and leavesafter Harry kind of goes for him,
and pretty much right away, Harryfeels bad about what he says because he

(01:36:51):
tells them I gotta I gotta flipto the page now, and what he
says specifically coward. Yeah, sohe says anyway, Hermione and Ron are
like, Harry, how could you? And um, And then Harry calms
down a little bit, um becausehe's thinking about his parents. And so

(01:37:12):
harry parents said Harry shouldn't leave theirkids unless unless they've got to. Harry
had said Hermione, stretching out aconsoling hand, blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah. Hefelt a sickening surge of remorse. Um.
He turned around and caught them turninghurriedly away from each other. I
know I shouldn't have called him acoward. No you shouldn't, said Ron
at once. But he's acting likeone all the same, said Hermione.

(01:37:32):
I know, said Harry, butif it makes him go back to Tonks,
it'll be worth it, won't it. He could not keep the plea
out of his voice. And thenwould James have backed Harry and what he
had said to Lupin or would hehave been angry at how his son had
treated his old friend. So Idefinitely think he regrets it, like right
away, he knows he he couldhave handled it better. They both could

(01:37:54):
have thanks could have gone so differently, Louie. You know, if there
were still a podcast question of theWeek, I would want to know,
like, let's just pretend that thishappened in a completely different way. What
are what are some other alternatives thatthat that could have happened where it did
not end in like Harry getting blastedinto a wall and loop and storming out

(01:38:18):
the door. I mean, eventhough that moment was disappointing, it was
hard to see him go because thenyou did you lost that like damn we
had a person like we had Yeah, Like you were like wait wait,
like I'm mad, but they'll comeback like yeah, and we do know
that they make up, right,they make up leading the book, and

(01:38:38):
Loopin I think recognizes everything he's donewrong right when he shows up at shell
Cottage, which again shell Cote parallelsee your room here, um, and
he's like ecstatic once Study's born andhe's just so excited and he and he
asks Harry to be his godfather.And it's like it's like a perfect reflection,

(01:39:01):
right, Like they introduce this hugeconflict between Harry Lupin and then it's
like resolves. Yeah, it's avery it's a very realistic view of true
human emotions. I mean, howmany times have you said, like I'm
never going to be friends with thatperson again, or I'm not dating this
person. I mean it's like humans, we change our minds all the time.

(01:39:27):
And I feel like that's probably beenone of my biggest like personal growth
lessons is like not well not beingso judging for other people for doing it,
but also myself like not being likeBianca, you're not crazy because yesterday
you wanted to murder that person andnow you love them cough cough, my
husband, You're not You're not crazy. Like this is a yeah, it's

(01:39:48):
a thing like this is. Imean, that's the things. That's the
thing about emotions, right Like,emotions they come and they go. I
think the trick is to not latchon to every emotion that you know comes
over you, Like you got tobe able to at least temporarily remove yourself
sometimes and be like, let menot react to that right now, let

(01:40:09):
me well. And also just gettingon a slight little soapbox here. That
was me climbing on the soapbox ifyou're watching the video. I think that's
a thing that is really hard fora lot of people in our in our
world now where time and space withlike the Internet and social media has just
been flattened, where people can't believethat people could have grown and changed from

(01:40:33):
any time, or that people cangrow and change, And so we don't
give people that benefit of the doubt, and we don't approach them in a
way that offers them the chance tolearn and grow. You know. Um,
oh my gosh, who who saidit? Why can't I think of

(01:40:53):
it? It's it's on a wallat my in my classroom. Um.
The quote that says when you doas the best you can and with what
you know, and then when youknow better, do better? Is that
maya Angelou. I literally can seethe quote, and I can't see who
it's by right now. That isa problem for me. But you know,
I think I think that's the thingthat a lot of us don't do

(01:41:15):
in our day and age, andwe should, right and maybe this incident
with Lupin is something we should lookat as a lesson of, like,
you can make really big, massivemistakes, but you can also make the
choices to change and grow from thosemistakes, and that's something that we need
to allow people to do. Andthe concept of like remorse, which I

(01:41:39):
think is quote I think Harry feelsremorse right in this chapter, And isn't
that like I don't know, likewith Tom Riddle ultimately not being capable of
that, and that's like gonna bea lesson. Yeah, that kind of
draws that line between good and evil. Absolutely, you can make mistakes,
but either to face them, andloupen does speaking of people changing and growing

(01:42:03):
and information, the shortest scene ofthese five scenes of this chapter is this
extract from the Life and Lies ofAlbus Dumbledore. M man Oh so much
so much is getting set up here. A couple of things I noticed.

(01:42:24):
I like that Harry notices that PercivilleDumbledore has twinkling eyes, because that's very
much the description that's always used forAlbus right is that he has twinkling eyes.
And obviously there's that first connection toGodrick's Hollow, and for the first

(01:42:45):
time Harry kind of learns that theyshared a place. Something funny I found
from reading this article is plangent timeshave got to be a complete invention,
right, like a magical plant ofsome sort, because I was looking for
them everywhere. They don't exist,you guys, but but they do sound

(01:43:09):
a little bit like plan Attachments,which was a long ruling family in England
that began with like a dynasty thatbegan with Henry the Second. So I'm
like, what are plantin times?Like? What are they? What do
they do? Exactly? Is thefunction? Why do you have to pick

(01:43:30):
them in the middle of the night, Like what's happening here? So if
anyone has any ideas listeners to youtoo, please tell me what is the
function of a plantists out there?Yeah? I mean, are they like
clementines kind of? Are they?I don't know? Anyway. This is

(01:43:57):
also where we get the beginning ofthe Ariana story, which rough yeah,
yeah, and I think there's somehistorical parallels here, but I couldn't put
my finger on any in particular unlessit was me and like this can't yet,

(01:44:17):
but unless it was like the becausethat happened in Britain for a long
time, where like unwed girls whogot pregnant would be sent to these homes
basically, you know, and thenthey would have the babies and then the
babies would kind of be spirited away. Basically. That was the only really

(01:44:40):
parallel I thought of, unless there'sanything else historically that anybody can think of.
Like I felt like there was somethingthere was like something on the edge
of my brain and I couldn't thinkof what it was. So maybe a
listener or somebody knows, because thisstory is is sad, Like I didn't
have many comments on this section,but like I did think that the little

(01:45:04):
piece where we see Kendra and Ariannalike walking around outside, like with the
firm grip on the side. Idon't know, there's just like such strong
imagery for me, like it definitelybelongs in a scarinity. I don't know,
like it's just I don't know,it's creepy creepy vibes. Lots of
creepy vibes in this chapter. Theybegin, it begins with creepy vibes and

(01:45:27):
it ends with creepy vibes. It'slike, as the witness to that,
like you were, like, whatthe heck is happening. It's like the
middle of the night, she's gotlike I don't know, yeah, you
know, I know that there wasn'tany social media back then, but it's
it's funny, how you know,even when I think about this, it
just it reminds me of social mediain a sense of how people viewers.

(01:45:53):
There's like a certain level of likeentitlement that people feel like they have to
other people lives and um, youknow, feeling like they know everything about
them or they can kind of piecetogether their own version of a story by
like you know, little clips,and um, I think that for me,

(01:46:15):
I was just really extra annoyed athow Harry immediately believed Rita, especially
considering Rita set him up for theoaky doke multiple times, multiple times,
and he even he'd even said somethingto Molly whenever Molly had believed her,
whenever she had written about Hermione.So the fact and I understand that Harry's

(01:46:39):
emotions are all over the place rightnow, but I don't. To me,
that was just very disappointing, Likeyou've known Dumbledore a lot longer than
you've known Rita Skeeter and the factthat you would look at that and then
I don't know. And I reallyenjoy this book in general, like I
liked it. I mean, Ienjoy all of them. Definitely. Hollows
is not even my least favorite,let me say that, but every time

(01:47:01):
I read this book, this isanything involving Harry's conflicted emotions around Dumbledore has
always annoyed me so much, LikeAda's just always felt like Harry, like
pull it together. I don't understandwhy you feel like Dumbledore owed you his

(01:47:23):
life story. He did not.He literally did, and he was a
he was the principal at your school, and yeah, he was also a
mentor to you. And I agree. Not mentioning Godred hollow It would make
me question it as well. ButI don't know the way that he really
just gotten his feelings all the time, Like why didn't Dumbledore tell me this?

(01:47:45):
Dumbledore, l it was just likeBrah, he just didn't owe you.
He didn't owe that to you.Well, I think it's because Harry
felt I think especially in Half BloodPrince, Harry felt like they developed a
sort of closeness, especially after whathappened at the Lake in Everything, which
obviously I mean Dumbledore dies right afterthat. But I think he's searching for

(01:48:06):
answers, and I think he feltlike Dumbledore knew the answers, and he's
asking, well, then why didn'the tell me? Right, why didn't
he tell me anything? He didn'teven tell me these basics about himself,
right, but why would he withsuch little time? Like But that's that's
also a very a very teenage brainthing to think that's right. You know,

(01:48:28):
he's not fully developed brain. AndI think one of the reasons he's
almost willing to believe Rita is becausehere's some like concrete information he could potentially
do something with. Right and rightnow, Harry wants to do something.
He doesn't care what it is,but he's like, I just need action,
Like I can't sit here anymore andkeep waiting for things to show up

(01:48:50):
at my door. I need togo find something. And this gives him
something maybe to latch onto, tobe like, well, Dumbledore was in
Godrick's Hollow. Maybe then there's somethingin Godrick's Hollow or do I even have
to follow what Dumbledore said? Right? Maybe he was keeping sinister secrets about
his whole life, and so maybehe didn't know what he was talking about

(01:49:12):
when he was telling me what todo. And I think he really is
grappling with what to believe in whatto do now that his pedestals that his
heroes have been on are falling down. Yeah, I think his reaction or
his take on the whole, likeDumbledore reveal, like if it were like
the uncle was saying, just likeHarry feeling but hurt that he wasn't like

(01:49:36):
let in that far. Yeah,and Dumbledore's confidence, Like, I think
that's one aspect of it. ButI think what you just said, Alison,
like, I think the other reasonit sort of affects Harry to learn
these things is that he's his trustin Dumbledore is getting shaken and it's so

(01:49:56):
key right now to be like that'sliterally all he's going on is Dumbledore's plans
and he's out in these streets rightnow for Dumbledore. Yeah, yeah,
exactly, And so like if there'sanything suggesting that like Dumbledore was dishonest,
Like, what does that mean forHarry's journey? Like, oh no,
no, that's fair. And Ido think Alison, I didn't also like
your point about him being a teenagerbecause it made me think about how when

(01:50:19):
we were younger and we would havelike our friends, they would be like,
I'm your best friend. I can'tbelieve you didn't tell me that,
or that whole idea of because youand someone are friends, they owe you
all of their secrets. Yeah,and I think you know now that.
Well, actually I realize I don'teven know how old most people are,
but I am thirty, and soI know that for me, it's a
completely different thing. Right, ifyour friend does confide to you about something,

(01:50:43):
You're not like, I can't believeyou didn't tell me that, right,
Like you you're more understanding, Likeyou understand there are things people want
to keep to themselves, or maybeit's something that they need to work through
in Harry is nowhere near at apoint in his development where he would be
thinking like that. We forget sometimes, especially reading these later books, we
forget that they are legit teenagers,like they are still kids, not even

(01:51:08):
like about to go into twenty,they're still like years sixteen, seventeen,
And it's like, I work withkids that age on a daily basis,
and let me tell you who.Sometimes they think the things they do.
You're just like what, You're like, why why would you ever? Yeah?

(01:51:30):
Like what possibly could have gone throughyour brain to make you think that
that was what should have happened orthat's what was happening you know. Yeah,
those are like nine years from thefrontal loom. Yeah, yeah,
but I think we forget sometimes becausethey're doing these you know, big world
saving things. Um, it's likewe do to them what he's doing,

(01:51:51):
the Dumblodore. We put them intopedestal and we expect them to be perfect,
and then whenever they are not perfect, we're like, oh that's dumb.
Yeah, but it's like it's ahuman thing. Yeah it is,
It really is. And it's it'spart of what obviously makes good literature because
if they did everything perfectly all thetime, it boring story. But they

(01:52:14):
got to screw up to and fixit to make us love them. So
Harry feels real bad now after Loopinand after Jumbledore, everything sucks, and
then we get Creature returning with mugdunnas Fletcher, and we get the mention
of the bribe that gives this chapterit's title. Ah, so yeah,

(01:52:40):
creature comes up back with dung whosucks. By the way, I do
not like ming dungnas and dumb things. It has to do with what happened
with Mattie, which like, yeah, you suck, it's your fault.
We also get a flashback to himstealing the goblets that Harry catches him with
in half food prints. Oh gosh, Dus is just a terrible human,

(01:53:05):
like so scunny, I can't doit. Yeah, well they do call
him down. They do, soit's fitting it sucks, and so they,
you know, start trying to askhim questions for why he's there.
I thought it was interesting. Itwas like, now the Trio gets to

(01:53:28):
interrogate someone, whereas like Lupin justarrived in this chapter with news on like
the Death Eaters interrogating Order members.Yeah, and I wonder if we are
supposed to as readers like see thatcontrast. And then I was looking,
I don't know when this reread,I noticed the way that Mandungus is treated

(01:53:50):
is like it's kind of intense,like he gets he gets tackled, he
gets his eyebrows set on fire,he gets hit in the head with a
saucepan, he gets water shot outof like it's a very like physical light,
like he went for a lot today. You know. It's funny though

(01:54:11):
that somebody mentions this is their firstinterrogation and it's kind of chaotic. And
my first thought was in Spider ManHomecoming when Peter goes to a chaircase a
Donald Glover's character and he's like,you've never done this before. He's like,
I, yeah, they're not verynice too, but that comes up.

(01:54:38):
I feel like it's come up afew times in the series where we
see violence towards like Nan Tag inhis character. And then you know,
especially like you know like Hagridd andDougley, Dougley, Hagrid, Dougley,
Arid and Dudley. I'm like,is that his name? Yeah, I

(01:54:58):
promise it has been a long week. Um, and then even like the
twins and Um and Dadley with thewhole tongue thing, and you know,
they're you know, there are alot of people who feel really strongly about
how that's not okay just because he'slike a bad character or whatever. So
Um, I mean personally, I'mnot really that mad about the situation with
Doug. I think to be hitwith a fag pan is pretty Yeah that

(01:55:20):
that what That one sucks. Idon't know how. But also I'm thinking
about like the size of a house, Elf, and I'm like, I
don't know, yeah, but whatthe eyebrow thing that was accidentally? Right?
Yeah? That was Yeah, Idon't think there wasn't any nothing was
really intentional. Yeah, nothing wasn'treally intentional other than the tackle and the

(01:55:41):
fag pan. But he tackled himbecause he was trying to run. So
yeah, So in reality, creatureis the only one to blame here now
that we've really did The humans didnothing wrong. There could have been sauce
pan something right, Like, there'sso many questions about what creature was doing

(01:56:06):
that. I just I just Ineed I need to get the fan fake
for Bianca. What was day one? Looking for dung hunting dung? Day
one? I just gave me thebreakdown. Yes, I just want to
see this like old Harry, Elf, which is out of stalking. I

(01:56:29):
just I need details, y'all,please, thank you? Yes, um,
really important quote that we've kind oftalked about a little bit, but
at this moment Harry says, itfelt wonderful to have something to do,
someone of whom he could demand somesmall portion of truth. And this is
just so where Harry's at right now. I think, like again, that
need for action, that need fortruth so that he knows what he needs

(01:56:53):
to be doing, and ringing itback to shell Cottage, which begins with
Harry's really big decision and to nottake action, right, I mean that
that's one of the biggest turning pointsI think in this book for me,
is when Harry says he had neverdecided not to take action like that before.

(01:57:15):
And it's just such a parallel,you know. I mean, it's
it's they're so often in this chapterwhere he's like, I need answers,
I need truth, I need todo something, and then we get the
ring of I need to give ittime and I can't just launch into things
yet. Oh so much happening,so much happening, and a lot of

(01:57:42):
pressure because I wanted hermione to here. He's got two other people sitting here
like, yeah, what do wedo? So it's like it's it's one
thing to be by yourself and tobe restless, but to also have two
other people who were like, so, what we're doing and like he can't
give them an answer like that hasto be extremely frustrating and it only gets
worse. That's go campaigns that itdoes camping time. They also ring finding

(01:58:05):
out about a horcrux, right becauseat the end of this chapter they find
where the locket is, and atthe end of shell Cottage they find they
figure out that there's a horcrux andgreen gotsum and both chapters also like sort
of I think of it as bookending the camping trip, yes, like
yeah, it's like our portal intoand our portal out of are in these

(01:58:30):
two houses. And then also ringiness. I don't know, this is probably
all covered on a full circle.But the um the trio is like planning
a big like mass infiltration in thesort of both sections of the book,
right, like they're about to breakinto the ministry, they're about to break
into Green gots both like he said, like for a horcrux, I don't

(01:58:56):
know, it's yeah nice, yeah, fine parallels. Also, I have
to say I thought this time whenreading it, I was like the author's
definitely had to censor what dung issaying, because Dung is the type who
would drop an F bomb every otherword, like and not just saying effing
like he does here, like youcan go in the whole way. Yeah,

(01:59:19):
I agree. Oh well, Ithink not just like this scene.
I can't think of any other scenesoff the top of my head, but
they're definitely like censored. Oh yeah, yeah, like throughout the series.
If this wasn't it, Yeah,if this wasn't a children's book, there
would be more colorful, spicy languagehere. Um, who would be the

(01:59:45):
biggest defenders if it's not Dung,Fred and George Yeah? Ron Ron,
Yeah, Ron has a potty moo. Yes he does. I could see
snape o that. I could seesnape like using it with Neffel. I

(02:00:06):
can't. I feel like he's toolike I don't know, I don't see
him being like I'm gonna cush youout. It's more like his words and
more like venomous. Look at that. Yeah. And that's how the chapter
ends, by finding out that Dungbribed a certain ministry official with the locket,
and this certain ministry official looked likea toad with a bow in her

(02:00:29):
hair and scars on Harry's hand.Tingle. Oh my god, can I
I know we're ending this, butcan I just say that I was to
day years old whenever I learned thatthe bribe was about Dung. I always
thought it was about Lupin. Really, no one else. I had to
remind myself, like I was,like, the bribe, what is that

(02:00:50):
referring to? Maybe I did drive? Yeah, every red. I've always
thought that the bribe was talking aboutLupin trying to bribe the trio to let
them go with him. So it'sfunny. If anyone else thought that,
please drop a comment so I canfeel a little bit better about myself.
That's all. But the next episodeit was about man Dongas. Yeah.

(02:01:14):
No, yeah, y'all can bequiet. Y'all don't gotta do that.
Y'all don't gotta do that. Butwe want to thank Leah for being here
with us and having some excellent pointsto bring up. Um, is there
anywhere that you want listeners to visityou online? If you've got a website,
business, social media, whatever anythingyou want to plug Ah, it

(02:01:35):
was it was an absolute pressure tobe here. Oh my god, you
guys have no idea. Um My, I'm you know, I'm on Instagram
as like me like Leah Jamison um. And then I do have like a
baking blog. It's called a ChioSugar. It's so that like it's a

(02:01:56):
Chio underscore figure on Instagram. Andthen like the link is in the bio.
I'm a follow you right now,you know, and vegangan? How
can it be secretly vegan? Well, because like you know, I have
a problem when people are like presentingdishes that are vegan and like they have

(02:02:17):
to like say, oh, thisis vegan lasagna, and it's like you're
just sort of like oh you're ohyou're more so like, oh, here
are these cookies. Yeah, theyjust look at the ingredients. There's no
like eggs or dairy exactly. Yeah, Like can we just like normalize it,
like food is food. Everything doesn'thave to have a leg Yeah,
it can just be here's a cookie. There's like people come back to you,

(02:02:41):
they're like, oh, this isa great cookie, like this is
a great cookie for a vegan cookie, and it's like no, no,
no, I want to be agreat cookie. Yeah for a cookie.
I support that. Yeah, Ilove that. Okay, So make sure
you follow Leah for all things HarryPotter and baking. I'm very excited.
Just that name is I love thatname. I just did and I'm already

(02:03:03):
excited. I'm in marketing, solike anytime I hear like a clever user
name, which is why and thishas been said over and over on Ilaha
Moor, but the user names oflike the forum. I mean, just
so one point, not mine.Mine is lame. Um, I just
admire everyone else's. But any who, Um, Leah, it was definitely

(02:03:24):
a pleasure, and um, Iloved so many of the points that you
brought up. Thank you for joiningus, Thank you for having me.
The next episode will be a chapterrevisit of Chamber of Secrets, Chapter six.
Gilderoy lockhearts so because guess what's comingdown soon? You know, because

(02:03:46):
you were at the meeting. Okay, yes, everyone gonna shake. That
was so amazing. I was alsotrying to get people excited. Okay,
something exciting. I'm gonna put thatplug in there. I'm here for my
jaws are store from laughing so muchin this episode to be very off.

(02:04:13):
Oh man. If you want tobe like Leah and guesth host, visit
our website Alohamoa Podcast dot com andjust choose beyond the show, there's a
little forum some questions. Maybe Idon't know the last time I looked at
that, so I really don't knowwhat it looks like. It's really easy
though, um um, and makesure to follow us on social media on

(02:04:35):
Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and Spotifyat alohamore at m N that is m
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to give another big thanks to LauraVeg for their second time sponsoring as they

(02:04:55):
sponsored this episode. Yeah yeah,and make sure to head over to to
uh patreon dot com sash a littleMara and for as little as two dollars
a month, you can sponsor usadd free version of the show to watch
the video, there's Patreon content wedo chats um. I think we're reviving
our discord a little bit um Dumbledore'sOffice on Facebook. There's lots of really

(02:05:19):
cool stuff only on Patreon. Andwith that, we're we're gonna go h
be like Creature and go hunt somedirty round scoundrels ourselves. I'm House,
I'm Rex, I'm Bianca. Thankyou for listening to episode three hundred and

(02:05:41):
seventy one of Alohamra open the dumbledoorand then get hit with a frying pan.
I don't know open you open thedumble door and then you're like you
appear as of an employed and you'reyou're just like you. I love the

(02:06:12):
spirit. That's the spooky part.Aloba Mora is produced by Tracy Dunstan and
edited by Patrick Musli, who wasco created by Noah Freed and Cat Miller,
and is brought to you by ap W B d LLLC. I
would, I would. I wasgonna do his whole spiel of of you

(02:06:33):
know, I am Rivers John Lupinwhere we'll blah blah blah married or whatever.
But I was gonna do it forme. But then I was like,
I don't think everybody putting your wholegovernment out on the podyat. Here's
my social security Oh my god,here's my address, here's my credit card
number, here's the CBC. Anyoneheard from Alison? Oh oh boy? Okay

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