OOTP, 13 Revisit: Regular Evil

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
This is episode four hundred and seventy three of Helohi
Mora for October eleventh, twenty.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
And twenty five.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Welcome to another episode of Aloho Mora, the fandom's original
Harry Potter book Club.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
I am Alison Sigurd, I'm sham Minnie Willis.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
And I'm Kat Miller and I have the distinct pleasure
of introducing our guest for this episode. It is doctor
Brent Saturley aka you may know him as his alter ego,
his drag persona, Professor Clytie Umbridge.

Speaker 5 (00:59):
Hell, Hello, good to see you all.

Speaker 4 (01:03):
Thank you so much for being here. This has been
a long time coming.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
Really, yes it has. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09):
Tell our listeners who may not know anything about you
or your backstory, give them like a like a two
minute rundown.

Speaker 5 (01:16):
Oh my gosh, Okay, everybody sit back and relax. No,
my name is doctor Bred Saturley. My students call me
doctor Brent, but most everybody calls me CLITTI and my
drag persona actually emerge from Harry Potter lore from the
implacable Dolores Umbridge, who I am in love with in
the most vile, horrible way because of who she is,

(01:38):
and that grew into Clitty. I am an academic drag queen.
I am a professor, a wide university professor of social work.
I have tenure and all that jazz, so I can
say anything I want, and I'm excited about being here
to chat about it. I'm also a licensed clinical social
worker in the state of Pennsylvania. I've been doing clinical

(02:00):
practice and higher education for thirty years or so, says
my back, and my student loans and so I'm very happy, though,
to chat about something that gives me a lot of
passion and joy, about the context of social justice, especially
as it relates to institutional oppression, which I think we're
going to talk a little bit.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
About, just a little bit, a little bit. Yeah, what
else are you?

Speaker 5 (02:25):
I'm Gryffindor as Brent social justice all that, as Clytie.
I am as you might expect Slytherin. But I have
a hufflepuff heart. I can't help it, you know, I
just don't fit in these little categories. I'm so queer.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
That's okay, I'll let you know. As Dumbledore has said,
I think sometimes we swore it too soon. I feel
like everybody has a little bit of everything. It's true,
so you know, but we do have you here for
a fantastic episode today, a great chapter. It is chapter
thirteen of Order the Phoenix Detention with Dolores, which of
course we picked for you very specifically. The last time

(03:00):
we talked about this was all the way back on
episode ninety chapter of Lies from June twenty fourteen with
myself apparently, Caleb, Laura, and Michael. So for your listening enjoyment, friends,
go listen to that episode before or after this one,
please and thank you.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
I love that title so fitting.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
It really is. We'll come up with an equally.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Good one to sure everybody's lying everywhere.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Yeah there, it is just kidding.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
And before we get started, we have first want to
thank our Patreon sponsor, who is Laura Lauren Sinclair today.
Thank you for sponsoring this episode on Patreon. Lauren, Thank you, Lauren.
We appreciate you so much. And if you don't know,
our Patreon offers a lot of great perks, including ad
free episodes, monthly meetups with the hosts, and so much more.

(03:50):
Our perks started just three dollars a month, so head
over to patreon dot com slash aloheimore to become a sponsor.
If you're looking for a non monetary way to support
the show, you can subscribe, save and share this episode
with all of your friends and to all of your
favorite Airy Potter communities. And we always appreciate the support
of every single one of our listeners. However you're able
to do so, yes.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
Lauren Returns should do it. Chapter revisit Ordro the Phoenix.
Chapter thirteen, Detention with Dolores Owl.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
The new school year starts and it absolutely sucks for Harry.
He's under scrutiny for his shouting match with Umbrage and
facing a week of detentions. He's already got buckets full
of homework. Angelina Johnson is on his case about missing
keep her tryouts. All their professors keep harping on about Owls.
Hagrid is missing still, and the Weasley twins are testing
out products on first year's stirring up Hermione. This first

(04:59):
wee is simply draining, but things go from bad to
worse when Harry starts to serve his detentions with Umbrage,
who has him used a sadistic quill that carves I
must not tell lies into his skin. Secrets, contentious relationships
and pain abound. It doesn't seem like it's going to
be a very magical year at all.

Speaker 4 (05:17):
At this point, I think you did great, was perfect.
Welcome to the real world kids, No truly, I mean
this chapter like just slaps you upside the head and
is like, yep, we're You're not in oz. I mean,
you're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 5 (05:35):
You know.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's just like reading it even I was like, I'm exhausted.
I just read this and I'm tired.

Speaker 4 (05:44):
Oh so it's almost an hour long. On the audiobook,
it is, it's four minutes.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
I was surprised when I clicked into the audiobook. I went, oh, oh,
we're going to be unpacking a lot here, okay, and there.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Is a lot to unpack.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
I listened to it a little bit as well as
just a refresher because I hadn't read this in quite
quite a while, and I was like, oh, my gosh.
And I think because of some of the time it's
been between when I first read it and when I
listen and read it subsequently, but listen to it now,
I was like, oh, I have so much more to say.
About this in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 4 (06:17):
So yeah, yeah, that's that is one benefit of having
a show that runs for well over a decade is
that what I said about this chapter back in twenty
fourteen is probably not even remotely the same as what
I'm going to say about it today.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
So yeah, it's.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
Yeah, it's bad.

Speaker 5 (06:40):
So I can I embody like being an academic queen
here for a minute and just talk about like my
initial like macro impressions as I was listening to this
please and you know, for your listeners, forgive me, but
I am an academic queen. And one of the things
that I spent a lot of time studying in my
recent sorch and stuff is the impact of colonialism and

(07:02):
how that flows through into supremacy and capitalism. And don't worry,
it all connects to this chapter. But the idea of
colonialism being the notion of what it means to have
both the right and the ability to dominate other cultures,
subsume them, transform them to look like you. We know
that this is a it's often brutal, a subjugation of

(07:23):
indigenous cultures. We've seen that all over the world, of course,
and Britain actually is the number one offender of that,
although the United States is a close second, and that
includes things like supremacy and the idea of how like
the notion that some people are better than others, right,
which of course in the wizarding world makes total sense
with regard to blood and how blood embodies, you know,

(07:47):
pure bloods have bloods, all that kind of stuff, muggle
borns and so on and so forth. And then capitalism
about the you know, the economic system of power exchange
of goods, services for resources, which usually leaves people who
are disenfranchised from having a lot of those resources. And
in this chapter we see a lot of all of

(08:09):
these things, often both in the context of white wizardry, supremacy,
human dominance, and the notion of slavery with regard to
how house elves do all this kind of labor and
which would often be considered invisible labor with good old Hermione,
you know, knitting her spew hats, or I believe you know,

(08:33):
Ron called them wooly bladders. They look like wooly bladders
that he put around the common room in griffindor I
was like ew ew and how those like supposedly disappeared
in Hermione's attempt to free the house elves from their
indentured servitude, if you will, And so I saw a

(08:55):
lot of supremacy and capitalism is flowing through there as
part of that kind of text. I just thought it
was Yeah, despite the fact that I think while Hermione
is quote unquote well intentioned, uh, there's a whole lot
of lack of cultural humility in the approach to you
know what it is that the house selves want or

(09:17):
you know, ways they find joy and embodiment and who
they are versus the experience of trauma, which I'll talk
about a little bit later.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
I'm always surprised when people say can you not bring
politics into Harry Potter, because it's like, have you did
we read the same book, Like I.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Haven't wrote the series?

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, exactly at this point in the series, it's like.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yes, Like yeah, it couldn't be more obvious. And yeah,
I mean with every yes, everything you just laid out
and like we were saying, this is a heavy this
is a heavy chapter in a heavy book. I am
beginning to realize why people don't enjoy this book.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
I love it. What do you love this book? Brent?

Speaker 5 (10:10):
Is this like Oh, my gosh, it's my favorite. It's
my absolute favorite.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Is it because of the themes or because of Umbradge
or like other reasons like.

Speaker 5 (10:17):
Well, it's I think I like it because Goblet of
Fire was so freaking long and massive in that, you know,
with doing things what I consider very action oriented, and
to me, this is much more about the insidiousness of
institutional oppression and how like from the very get go,

(10:39):
when Umbradge ultimately sent the the Dementors to go after
Harry in the off season, if you will, during the
summer months to where we are now, there's this an
insidious plan to attack who and what Harry represents sense

(11:01):
which I believe is truth and resistance in some of this.
But also then you know how she literally drools at
the notion of having Harry under her control. So for me,
it's this kind of connection of institutional oppression and how
those things actually play out in this way, plus the

(11:21):
experience of what that's like, frankly for teenagers, like for
an adolescent who's struggling with basics of adolescence, like I'm
mad all the time, you know, or or I've got
all these weird feelings when I see you know, Joe.
I mean just all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 4 (11:39):
So yeah, this book just really fits right into everything
you do as a propecially. Yeah, how old were you
when you first read it? I'm really curious now, Oh
my gosh.

Speaker 5 (11:49):
Okay. So one of the things that you all asked
me before this was, you know, where can people find me,
like in the socials and social media, you know, all
that kind of stuff and the interwebs. And I was like,
I'm a glorious gen xer, so you can find me
the Encyclopedia Britannica. That's about it. But the reality of

(12:12):
it is is that I think I was in my
oh my gosh, I was in my thirties when I
read this.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, because it's because oh three, because I was in
third grade.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, oh wow, I know, trust me.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
Wow wow, oh my gosh.

Speaker 5 (12:34):
Okay, I'm gonna have to use my emotional support dumpster
fire for this.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
That's so cute.

Speaker 5 (12:40):
So to cope with what you just said, No, it's great.
I love being fifty four, but don't say, yeah, no,
I was in my thirties.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
Because I'm always curious when people read it at a
younger age, I guess like Allison did, and then grow
up and read it. How that comes completely changes over
those decades. Ice Noman hasn't changed too much for you,
or maybe it has through your work.

Speaker 5 (13:07):
Well interestingly enough. I mean, I'm just going to share.
I mean, I'm a gay man. I know you're shocked.
I know you're surprised, clutch the pearls. But I'm a
gay man who grew up in the age of AIDS.
I cut my teeth in clinical social work as an
HIV clinical social worker before the advent of you know,

(13:28):
prote's inhibitors and the cocktail, which basically ultimately shifted HIV
and AIDS from a deadly disease to a chronic illness.
And so much of my work was sitting alongside people
who were suffering, often in silence or great shame and
cope and hearing from a lot of the world that

(13:49):
it's a good thing that you're suffering, because you should
be and you deserve it. Right. That's the stigma of
HIV and AIDS is often not understood you know about,
you know, by by younger generations, and which ultimately, I
think is the fault of the lack of history and
how we're communicating history, which I think is especially dangerous
that we're not doing that now with what's happening now

(14:13):
in twenty twenty five in the United States. But I
think ultimately the reality of it is is that one
of the areas that I felt like was super important.
How my ideas of this is for us in the
queer community, it's always been about putting us existing in
the in betweens right and you know, like bucking the

(14:36):
heteronormative system, and especially over the course of the last
thirty years with the acknowledgment of trans folks, non binary folks,
and which I think is critically important for justice, is
that being able to see how things were happening then

(14:57):
and how they transform now. My opinion of this chapter
has pretty much been consistent with survival. It's about survival
in the face of overwhelming oppression in ways, but it's
also about the ways that people who often don't seem
to have a lot of power cope, and sometimes that

(15:20):
coping is messy and sometimes it is joyful, and this
chapter is about in my opinion that it's very messy.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
Well, first, I didn't know you did that, So bless
you for that work, because that's incredible.

Speaker 5 (15:35):
It was a long time ago, very important still truly.

Speaker 4 (15:39):
We open the chapter, you know, Harry is having this
just terrible, terrible time, and people are whispering around him
because nobody really knows what actually happened with Cedric and
Valdemore at the end of at the end of Goblet,
and I wanted to ask, like, are any of you, like,

(16:01):
let's be real, who would actually believe Harry? I mean,
I'm just I'm not saying that I wouldn't. I'm not
saying you wouldn't. I just thinking about the times we
live in right now, and how messed up even firsthand
accounts of events are, how people lie and they twist
and perception and all of that. I can understand why

(16:22):
these people are having a really hard time reconciling what
happened when you know, they couldn't see the maze, which
is still like bonkers to me, how boring like, and
then he just comes back with a dead body, like
I can't even imagine.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
That's something interesting that I also picked up on because
I found it fascinating that Harry, Harry doesn't want to
talk to Dumbledore, he doesn't want to talk to adults,
most of the time.

Speaker 5 (16:51):
Right.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
We've talked about this before. Harry doesn't really trust adults
most of the time. But he makes this assumption that, well,
everybody must have believed Dumbledore at the end of last right,
which I think.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Is so fascinating.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Like he he's just made that automatic assumption of well,
everybody else believed him last year, right, so why why
has it changed?

Speaker 2 (17:11):
And it's not until hermione he says, well, I don't
think they did that.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Harry even entertains the thought, which is fascinating to me,
and I think speaks a lot to how Harry sees Dumbledore.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
And also, I mean it's also just a very fifteen
year old.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Right, like very naive, yeah, which I mean I work
with him every day, right, and there are times where
they're like, well so and so said, and so it
must be true, and it's like, no, okay, we gotta
we gotta unpack this, like you know, so, yeah. I
find it fascinating that he's like, well, obviously everybody believed.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Him then, so why don't they believe me now?

Speaker 1 (17:51):
And he's taking it more as a personal attack than
I think it is, because I think you're right, I
think there are a lot of questions out there. I
think is special kids who maybe grew up in the
Wizarding World are used to trusting sources like the Daily
Profit more without interrogating those sources, right, and there's not

(18:14):
like there really are other sources to cross reference with
very much that we know about. So it is it
is so fascinating though that, Yeah, it's they're all whispering,
But I also find it fascinating in the context of
a lot of these people that don't believe him are

(18:34):
people that know him, Yeah, which doesn't make sense, like
I mean, it does, but it doesn't make sense to me, right,
Like I think Seamus is the one that really gets
me every time, because it's like, dude, you've literally shared
a dormitory with him for four years, Like you know him.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
How how are you not believing him?

Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know?

Speaker 2 (18:57):
So, yeah, there's so much to unpack there. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
Do you think it's so much that they don't believe him?
Like I feel like underneath they're inclined to believe him,
but there's some skepticism there because they're all in denial
about what this could mean for the Wizarding World. So
I think they're just looking for facts and maybe a

(19:22):
more detailed account of what happened, which I would absolutely
be asking questions like what exactly happened? Who was there?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
You?

Speaker 3 (19:32):
I would want like a full rundown. But I think
I would be inclined to believe Harry for that reason,
just because if you've known him for four or five
years or whatever, you know, he's not the kind of
person who would just go out and seek this type
of attention for fun, Like, that's not Harry. He's always
trying to shy away from the attention.

Speaker 5 (19:54):
So yeah, and I think, actually, you're absolutely right. I
think the reality of it is is there's this compartmentalization
and denial that has effected so much of a student
body there that it makes it like incredibly challenging for
them to acknowledge this is what's happening, like this is

(20:14):
like because if they do, it means that war is coming,
It means that their families are in danger. It means that,
you know, again, a strong man has assumed control of
the ministry through fear. Gee, I wonder what that sounds like.
I wonder if that sounds like anyway. And the reality

(20:36):
of it is is that it's just it's a way
that paralyzes people and stops them from critically thinking. And
when you have media sources that are ultimately controlled by
the state, then they shape opinions, They shape ideas based
in fear. And when you have families that are understandably

(20:56):
afraid for themselves because of their own history of trauma
from the other war are the first wizarding war that
happened here they are again, so they're completely triggered. And
you know that he's back, He's back, He's back, and
all we know is that that troublesome Harry Potter perhaps
has killed a boy.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
Yeah, propaganda is definitely playing a big part here.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
There's also the fact I think that the oldest of
them that would have been alive during that time would
have been two, right, because that would have been the
seven years, and they would have been two when Voltimore fell,
So they most of them, even because Harry's fifteen now
Harry's a fifth year. Most of the school then at
that point they weren't even born. So all they've ever

(21:39):
heard about is like the horror stories, right, So they
don't even know what they're looking for in some regards,
like they don't even know the signs necessarily even if they've.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Learned well, I mean, they haven't learned much from bins,
but that's a different story.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
But even if they've learned, like from family, or even
if they've learned from family or from other books or
from other sources, what it may have been like, they
obviously don't know the signs leading up to it, and
their parents and the adults who maybe saw the signs

(22:15):
before the first War are probably just so frightened of
what happened at the end that they're not paying attention
necessarily and they are more in that denial, and so
the kids are just kind of parroting in some ways
what they're hearing at home, which happens all the time.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
So yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
Crazy to me though, because you would think that given
what happened before, they would be more aware. I'm most
hyper aware of what's going.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
On, But they don't. Though. That's the interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Like I've found, and this is kind of a weird
off topic, but the farther away I have kids I'm
a teacher, by the way, I should have said that.
The farther way, I have kids that were born from
like nine to eleven or something, which for me was
supremely impactful.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Right.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
But the more I have kids that are that were
born further and further from that, the less and less
they seem to understand how like.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Seismically shifting that was.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
And they they don't even understand why people get like,
you know, like the half of them don't even know
exactly what.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Happened, right.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
So it's fascinating about especially I think closer history is
for people because as long as the people, I mean,
even when I was in school, we didn't really even
learn about Vietnam, right, and that I mean I didn't
learn about a lot of that until I was an adult,
and then I was like, wait, why don't we learn

(23:44):
more about this? There's a lot of really important things
that can we can trace back to that, And so
I think that's almost a similar thing happening here, is
is people kind of forget the historical and the things
that are happening around them as part of history that
can be repeated almost.

Speaker 5 (24:03):
Hundred percent. And I think I think of growing up,
we used to have to go and sit in the hallway.
It's just a junior high for me, sit in the
hallway and duck our heads between our knees as nuclear
war practice drills like that was going to protect us
from nuclear holocaust, you know, And we used to walk

(24:26):
around thinking, well, any day and we would just look
up and I mean that was part of and that
cultural history is lost like that people thought, you know,
and that there was a daily thought process and many
times the conversations were, when are we going to need
this information in schools because we're going to be dead,
you know. And that was the thought process. And then
you add to it things like you know, AIDS and

(24:50):
poverty and homelessness and the Challenger explosion. Those were all
impactful generational moments for my generation. So I think when
you look at how those things are trans from generation
to generation, a lot of times what is communicated not
just to the media, but the family culture is caught,
not taught. That is, it's caught in ways that people communicate,

(25:12):
the words they use, the stories they tell, and when
they and it's not like they sit down with somebody
and say, okay, so I'm going to make sure that
you understand that it's terrible if a strong man takes
control of the ministry by But I suppose they'll just
tell stories about that, reflect that and kids will absorb
it like a sponge, and that shows up in this

(25:34):
kind of hesitation to believe, even from their friend like Seamus,
who was taught by his family, Like no, it was
like Harry Potter's suspect.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
Thank god they don't have social media. Could you imagine
for these wizards and for her?

Speaker 5 (25:53):
I can only imagine the abridge means.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Like I'd be interested to know the conversations that are
happening in the homes like that. Yeah, now I'm curious
to know what's being told, what's not being told, and
everyone's interpretation of what happened before versus what's happening now.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
Yeah, just imagine the level of emo Harry would be
if he was also getting roasted on.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Oh my gosh, do you think Harry would be like
the most followed person on wizarding social media?

Speaker 4 (26:23):
I mean probably up there. He'd probably be up there,
held up.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
His status would just be like leave me alone, right.

Speaker 4 (26:32):
He'd never post be empty. It would be like just
I'm just claiming this profile so nobody impersonates me.

Speaker 5 (26:38):
You know. Probably he would have a shadow one.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Yeah, he would. He'd totally have a shadow one.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
A shadow and a headwig, you know. Yeah, like it
would be a head Wigs video.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Speaking of friends, though, I do like this moment.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Where Hermione finally tells Harry to stop biting their heads off,
which I have to say, I'm actually impressed that she
held off so long, right, and she does it so calmly.
She's like, you don't need to bite our heads off, Harry,
because I think I would have snapped at like the
first I've been like, dude, why are you getting mad
at me? I believe you obviously.

Speaker 5 (27:15):
And she says something that's so important. We're on your side. Yeah,
we're on your side, right, and that that is so
powerful and important because that's really what grounds Harry.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
It's one of those things where like when you're the
most upset, you most attack or take out your anger
on those who are closest to you. Yeah, but Harry
is like next level this entire time. It's a drop
of a hat. Mood swings like crazy.

Speaker 4 (27:45):
Like I mean from experience, I've not I obviously have
never been in Harry's position. But when I'm venting to
somebody that I love and who loves me back or whatever,
it's because I know that I can do that and
they won't judge me, and they'll still love me, and
they'll still care about me, and they won't take anything

(28:05):
that I might say that might be hurtful or wrong
or whatever and hold it against me. So I can.
I mean, yes, Harry is like a level twelve and
he should be much lower than that. But I get it.
But yes, it's good for Hermione for finally being like, chill,

(28:25):
please just take a step back, Harry. Please, we're here
for you.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
We got your back, because it does weigh on you, you know,
like I think totally because I totally get it, right,
Like the people you lash out at are the people
that you know won't leave you behind, right, Like you
feel that safety to do that in but it also.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
Can be really.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Like weigh a lot on the people that you do
keep lashing out at, right, Like eventually they're gonna be like, okay, listen,
right Like it still can be hurtful if you say
these things to me, right, if I'm hearing these things
from you. So I think that's really But she does
it in such a calm way, though, which I think
is just so important to of, like, Harry, we're here, right, Like,

(29:10):
here's what's happening.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah. Well, and they've only there so we're like a week.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
No, this is day two. This chapter starts all day two.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
My gosh, cool, day two. Okay, Well, I guess Harry's lying.
He says something at the beginning that's like I'm paraphrasing,
like the first day it lasted a week or that.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Right quote Harry styles at one point, today has been
a long week for us.

Speaker 4 (29:44):
Yeah, jeez, But I mean Umbradge. You know, of course,
we we don't know too much about her yet. We've
met her, we've seen her in a couple of different settings,
we've sort of heard what Hermione thinks about her. But
Harry had that first lesson, he got those detentions, and
they're like, oh crap.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
And I think Hermione definitely has a good read on
her so far, And I do you have to say
that I'm kind of impressed with her for a kind
of questioning Dumbledore's decision to hire Umbrage because normally Hermione,
you know, rule follower, go with the flow, this is
the teacher, except that blah blah blah. But now we're
starting to kind of see her push back a little
and be like wait a minute, what was Dumbledore thinking

(30:25):
hiring this woman?

Speaker 5 (30:26):
I completely agree, And it reminds me of there's a book.
As I was reading this, it reminded me there's a
book that I really appreciated in my grad school training
by Michael Lipsky called Street Level Bureaucrats, which is really
about people who are in positions of power, who can
use discretion, like a cop can decide whether or not

(30:46):
they're going to pull you over or they're just going
to let you go because they got a cup of coffee,
right and they don't want to mess up their coffee,
or you know, you know that kind of stuff. And
in this instance, authority is granted to Hermione in the
position of prefect, you know, that year, and she then
has all of a sudden some degree of power, and

(31:07):
more so in the context of what she sees as
almost like ethical or moral responsibility about what should and
shouldn't be happening. And so I think that extents also questioned. Typically,
I think that's often thought of as questioning and controlling
and policing if you will, students and peers. But she
also then uses that to do the same up, you know,

(31:28):
and ultimately to up or to Dumbledore. So I think
that's completely on point, that the authority of the Prefect
impacts her in ways that I think are new and different.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Well, she also she knows that it wasn't Dumbledore's choice, right,
she heard She's like the only one who listened to
Umberge's speech at the welcoming feast, right, and she started
picking that apart right from the get go, right, right
from the get go, she picked it apart. And she
was like, the ministry is interfering here, right, like Fudge
put her put umbrage in this position. But so she
says in this chapter, how could Dumbledore li let this happen?

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, which I think is.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Fascinating, right, because she's she's not saying like Dumbledore hired her,
but why would he go along with this? Right? Why
would he go along with this if he like, surely
he knows what's happening, Surely he knows how this is working.
And so that is a very interesting thing to think
about because I think, especially as we'll see like a

(32:22):
little bit later in the chapter, Hermione like not letting
things go, right, She's not just gonna let things happen
if she thinks something is.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Wrong, which kind of takes us back to the common.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Room, right, which where they're they start to try and
do their homework because Harry can't deal with the arguing,
which like saying Harry. But all of a sudden they
see friend George off in the corner with these first
years and Hermione is like, oh no, because friend George

(32:57):
are testing their skiving snack boxes on first years, And
I'm like, why first years?

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Though?

Speaker 2 (33:04):
It feels like, obviously it's it's unethical to be testing.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
These things on first years, but would it be more
ethical if they because they say, well, we're paying them, right,
they're paid clinical studies to some degree, so would it
be better if they like only had recruited seventeen year
olds maybe or maybe older students because they're following the
scientific method, right, Like they've tested it on themselves. They've

(33:32):
done smaller ones. Now they're expanding the range. So I'm
just like, is there any case where this would have
been okay?

Speaker 2 (33:41):
What they're doing.

Speaker 5 (33:43):
I'm doubting they had any kind of informed consent. Yes,
well we know they just what's gonna happen. They were like, well,
they might fall asleep and never wake up, but you know,
you know, we've tested it on ourselves, so it's okay.
So yeah, and Hermiony kind of then attacking Fred and
George and trying to get Ron to join her, and

(34:07):
Ron's like that is on you, you know, which to
me is one of the first times it sets up
this dynamic family conflict. Plus, it's not my business versus Okay,
what happens if ultimately the first years fall asleep and
never wake up, Like, how's Rong going to feel about that?
If he didn't do anything, you know, And that's what
we would call complicity. It's it's hard. It is a

(34:27):
tough one in moments like that.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
I one hundred percent think that they chose the first
years simply because they are first years and they can
easily manipulate them into doing whatever they want. I do
think it would have been better for them to choose
students who were of age, because then they could at least,
you know, legally decide for themselves if they want to
take on this risk, and maybe have some forms for

(34:53):
them to sign, you know, keep it legal. You know,
we release any any reliability, any liability you reliability too.

Speaker 4 (35:05):
That is so cute that you think any wizard cares
about like I read it was.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Also it was the nineties, like.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
Everything's loosey goosey, looks whatever. Right, yeah, whatever. But I'm curious,
how do you make an edible magical object? Because we
see them collecting certain ingredients. It's got to be just chemistry, right,

(35:39):
Like are they actually charmed in some way? Is it
just the chemistry of the magical ingredients?

Speaker 2 (35:46):
It's got to be a little bit of both.

Speaker 4 (35:47):
I think I'm kind of baffled.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
I think it's got to be some of that chemistry,
but then there's got to be something where they can
like enhance it or only bring out certain properties or
something like that.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
Mm hmmm hmm.

Speaker 5 (36:01):
Well, I mean I have to like stick up for
my chemistry colleagues in the chemistry department at my university.
They would say chemistry is magic.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
Chemistry is I mean, that's fair and.

Speaker 5 (36:14):
It's but I I think it's I mean, it's a
good point. But it's one of those areas that I
think is like it goes back to life. I mean
we're talking capitalism and or do any of that. They
need the money, they need some serious galleons, uh and them,
So you know, it kind of starts and then everything else,
like no matter how it happened, they had the access

(36:36):
to make it happen.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
So well, the thing, the thing that always gets me,
I agree, chemistry is magic for the record, but the
thing that always gets me is like, so Lee walks around,
he just sets the suites into their open mouths, and
it just gives me like nearly headless nick polyjuice potion vibes,
Like how you mean? Yeah, that's what I meant. Yes,

(37:02):
I was like, how does that? I know, it's like
plot and whatever.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Maybe they dissolve, but maybe maybe, especially for like the
fainting ones, it's just it dissolves.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
And because I've always been a believer that they like
put the man Drake dropt in like a like a
squirt bottle and like spray Oliver, because like, how do
you give that to a dead ghost? You know, I
don't know the whole thing is. I mean, it's supposed
to be a comedy, right, it's supposed to be comedy.
I don't think Friend George are that funny personally. I

(37:38):
think they're incredibly dark characters. That's another episode. But yeah,
I mean they're they're obviously clever. Yeah, they're obviously clever.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
I do have to say to you, I love this
bit of Hermione knows, like how well Hermione knows people right.
She knows that any normal school punishment is going to
do nothing for friend George. And they kind of with
that too, They're like, oh, yeah, what are you gonna do?
What are you gonna do? But she's like, oh, you
know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna write to your mother.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
And they're like.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
And that calls real fear in them, which I think
is just it's so funny, but it also just I
think speaks to how well Hermione knows, like she can
read people right, she knows anything else I could do
will do nothing for them.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
They don't care.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
But getting in trouble with Molly, oh they will do
anything to not right, They're like, we will not cross
that line, which I almost think is is why Ron
doesn't do anything, because he's like, I don't want it
getting back to mom right, like, and it gets back
to Mom that I had to go after them, like
what am I gonna do? You know?

Speaker 4 (38:48):
Yeah, well, especially after the ruckus that Mollie threw over
the summer about you know, them bringing the suites and
the ton tongue toffee, which I never say correctly, you know,
like all of that. Yeah, it's it's a pretty it's
a it's a hot button subject for Moli. So that
that that's quite the quite the cold threat there by,

(39:10):
Miss Gringer.

Speaker 5 (39:12):
Can I go back though to Fred and George for
a second, because of course I think that they are Yes,
I think they're dark in lots of ways, but I
think that they are the seeds of rebellion that are
some of the first time like because later on we
see them like being like we're out, you know, we're out,

(39:32):
and they you know, they they like do this whole big,
big jinx in the school with the swamp and and
and they create this resistance for the first time publicly
against umbrage in front of teachers and students, and it's
the first time that any of them resist like this.

(39:56):
Teachers haven't done it, the students, other students haven't done it,
you know. And it's one of those areas that it's.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Open because because the.

Speaker 5 (40:07):
Like going on, well yeah yeah, and I think that
that is something that is such a powerful and important part.
And the ways that they ended up doing that was
by breaking the rules. Yeah, by doing something that Hermione,
who in this police position, didn't want to have happened
because it was going to cause problems. And to me,
that's a big part of what I would call respectability politics.

(40:29):
We want everything to be nice, we want everybody to
get along, we want everything to be like quiet. And
I'm like, if there was a house that was going
to say we're gonna buck this, it's got to be
Gryffindor and you know, so, I mean, it's not going
to be Hufflepuff. It's not going to be the intellectual
raven clause.

Speaker 6 (40:46):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (40:46):
And so it's just one of those things that I
think is powerful about Fred and George in that respect,
they sow the seeds of rebellion.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
What do you think radicalizes Hermione? When does she start
to change her mind and go from that state to
I know this is a book quote, maybe a movie quote.
Maybe it's a book quote, but where she's like, oh,
isn't it fun breaking the rules? I'm pretty sure that's
just the movie.

Speaker 5 (41:08):
Yeah, that's just a movie.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
Where's that change for her? What do you all think?
I mean, it's clearly Umbradge is the impetus but like,
what moment is it when she finds out about Harry's hand.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yeah, I think it's a hand. It's a combination of
the hand and also the moment when they're in class
and they have to put their books away and they
find out they're not learning any magic at all, Like
that's a small turning point. And then when she finds
out about Harry's hand is when it's all like, oh no,

(41:40):
there's something very wrong here and we have to stand
up against this.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
See, I actually think I have to disagree.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
I think she actually has that change all the way
back in Sorcerer's Stone, and I think examples like this,
Hermione has.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Very clear I think.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
I say, this is someone who you know has identified
with her for my entire life. She has very clear
like lines that she will and will not cross right
and something like this like stopping Fred and George from
testing things on first years, I think goes more into
like a moral line of she's like, that's not right, right,

(42:19):
it's not right again to she wants everyone to be
what's the word I'm looking for. I don't know, I
can't think of it. But there are certain things where
where she has kind of like a moral code that
she very much sticks to, and so Fred and George
testing on first years goes against that moral code, so

(42:41):
she's going to be against that. But also everything Umbridge
is doing obviously goes against that moral code, so she's
against that too. So I don't necessarily see it as
like an either or for her. I see it more
as she sticks to her code, and she has kind
of lines that she thinks can be crossed maybe in

(43:02):
certain situations, and lines that you think should never be crossed,
and if somebody comes up against that line, she's going
to go stop them no matter what it is.

Speaker 5 (43:12):
I appreciate that, and it makes sense. I think, you know,
human beings don't wake up one day and decide they're
going to steal a car, well, unless you're Harry and Rock.
But the idea is that, you know, in the Muggle world,
you know, it's often a series of cultural scripts and
lived experiences, hardships, trauma, even things like poverty that limit

(43:37):
access to resources, capitalism, you know, and one of the
ways that end up leading people to making decisions which
from a societal point of view would be considered immoral
or unethical, but from an internal community point of view
would be about you know, survival, like we're being put
in this awful position and we have to be able
to buck that system in order to be able to
make sure that we have our basic needs and the

(44:00):
idea of Hermione growing and changing and experiencing that over time.
And I agree, like when a Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner
of Azkaban, there was a lot of bucking of the
system and you know, breaking the rules and stuff with
a little bit of sanctioning from the from the top,
you know, you know. But I think the reality of

(44:21):
it is is that I really think that when while
she was very upset that the first years were going
to get possibly like drugged, you know, non consensually, I
think she hit a wall when she saw the scar
because it was to her dear friend Harry, who she
loved and cared about, and this was direct evidence. Yes,

(44:43):
I think when she was not able, when when Umbradge
was not going to teach them practical magic. Oh see
what I did there, practical magic but the but then
but when she saw the scar and what that meant,
and I think it was a little shift for her.
So I don't think it was this huge boom. But
it was like, oh no, we can't, we can't abide this.

Speaker 4 (45:04):
Mm hmmm hmm. Yeah, it's it's like she went from that, Okay, well, friend,
George are doing something that they really shouldn't be doing
that I disagree with because maybe they're putting the first
years in harm maybe they're not. But I've also known
them a long time and I like trust them in
a sense, so it's like I don't like it, but
I'm not going to do too much about it to
like actual torture. Yeah, that's a big I mean, it's.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
A big jump.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
It's a big jump.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Big demp Okay, Yeah, I guess I guess if we're
talking about like that shift, I would agree it's it's
when she finds out what's been happening to Harry. But
I do think her seeds are rebellion like that come much.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Sooner, I guess. I guess I kind of misunderstood a
rum looking at there.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
But no, I mean Hermione's Harmione is the perfect example
of someone who either sticks to you know, sticks to
her guns and her code, or is just like it
out the window, like it's there's there's really no black
and white with Hermione. It's like, we're doing it this
way or we're doing it that way. Yeah, So, which

(46:11):
is really interesting then when you think about this, the
way she treats the Hogwarts elves. Yes, yeah, this is
obviously as many listeners know and all of you know,
long time, long time discussion in this fandom about Hermione
and Spew and the elves and these wooly bladders like dude.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing here is just is
it ethical for her to trick them in this way?

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Like, here's what I'd like to note too.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
I'd like to note that Ron makes it clear that
he's not a posed to these elves being set free
like this, but he wants them to have a choice
in the matter, right, Like he wants them to know
what they're picking up and to not be tricked into it.
And so that's kind of of what got me thinking, like, well, okay,
is it then ethical for Hermione to be trying to

(47:07):
trick them because she kind of thinks she knows better.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
So interestingly enough, for our I think it was episode
ninety that I said that basically this whole thing was
our podcast question of the Week, and it was all
about is it right? Does it even work? And like
just feedback on Hermione, And so I picked this one
comment that I thought could help us with our conversation here.

(47:35):
It's from sired Lock. They say, is it a magical
contract or just one that the elves feel very strongly
to fulfill. If it is indeed a magical contract, then
Hermione's clothes would not set them free. If it was
not a magical contract, then I suppose the choice of
leaving could be left up to the individual heal self.

(47:55):
I believe that it is not a magical contract, and
that elves can stay out of a sense of obligation
and or tradition. In chamber Lucia's does not mean to
hand Dobby the sock. But Dobby still chose to leave
because he was unhappy with the Malfoys. So that just
really brings up I mean, this whole thing is just
more questions than it is answers, which is I know

(48:17):
how it goes in these books sometimes, but yes, is
it on ethical? Does it even work? Can it even work?
Is it a contract? Is it a choice? I don't
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, because it gets it gets messy when we think
about the folklore that they're based on two right, like
because in folklore Brownie's offer being offered clothes. They leave
because they're offended, not because there's like a contract.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
That's usually how it goes.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Is that is that they leave because they're offended. And
and so I guess it's like which which is fascinating
then here because we learn later when Dobby says the
other house elves are offended, right, that Hermione's been leaving
these things around.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
And that's why he's been doing it himself. So yeah, no,
it does. It just gets so messy about what's happening here.

Speaker 5 (49:14):
I don't think like it feels very much like you know,
the proverbial white Knight coming in too, you know, set
people free and all that. It just it just smacks
so much of the supremacy of I know what's best
and and they they just don't know what they want
and things like that. I appreciate what sil Siedluck said

(49:37):
here that makes I like the thought process about the
notion of a magical contract and staying out of a
sense of obligation or tradition, I mean, and uh, and
the idea though of like the history of indentured servitude
or slavery throughout the world is a horrific one where
people often you know, can be reared into a culture

(49:57):
of indentured servitude and or a cult sure of slavery. Uh.
And that doesn't necessarily make it right, uh, you know,
and magine and and again I come back to, like
the exchange of goods and services for resources, Like, what
is it that the house elves are getting out of this?
Are they getting out of it a sense of accomplishment?
Are they getting out of it a sense of we're fulfit,
We're providing honor to our family, our health family by

(50:22):
doing this. Are we you know, versus if you're working
at Hogwarts versus if you are a house elf to
the Malfoys. That's a very different lived experience, I have
no doubt.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (50:33):
And even the verbiage master you know and you know
is like that's a those are those things are smack
of racial overtones in ways that are not very nice.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (50:45):
And and so and I think of the the pieces
here that are critical, like I often saw actually a
lot of Hermione's intentions of like making all of these
hats and putting them around as a kin to what
Ron and Fred were or excuse me, Fred and George
were doing, because there was no informed consent, there was

(51:07):
no choice. There was just you're going to do this,
and we want you to do this and that kind
of stuff. And so I found it quite shocking that,
you know, her deciding to employ her authority as a
prefect but still being like I have the authority of
her knowing what's best for the house.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
Else it was very hypocritical of her to go over
and try to reprimand them, and then she's turning around
and doing this being so unethical herself. Like I'm I
agree with Ron, if if this was to work, like
if this did truly set them free, I feel like

(51:42):
they should have had the choice and been able to
see what they were picking up, not being tricked into it,
because what if they had nowhere else to go?

Speaker 4 (51:50):
Yeah, well, and you know, imagine too, Let's let's pretend
for S and g's that like this does somehow work,
which is crazy in the first place, Like how do
they do laundry? You know, like like I'm sorry, no,
but Dumbledore, like how would he like we know that

(52:13):
Dumbledore is whatever he supports Dobby, Dobby wants to be paid,
so he pays Dobby. But like if all of a
sudden Hermione has quote unquote freed half of the elves
at Hogwarts, Like, what does Dumbledore do you know? If

(52:34):
half of them pick up the clothes and they do
want to leave, what does that say about the school?
What does you know? I hmm, Like I said, more
questions than answers, at.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Least in the laundry case. I think there's got to
be something about intent with the clothes. Well, right, I
mean that's the yeah then well but would it though,
because if you intend, if you still like laundry, right,
if you're still like this is still mine, right, like,

(53:09):
then that's different than I want to get rid of
this and I'm handing it off.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
But I think the intent has to come from the
elves side, like.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Oh yeah, well yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
You know because like like our throwback comment example from
sired luck, you know they reference Lucius. Lucius didn't even
give Dobby a sock. He he gave Dobby a diary
stuff like stuffed inside of a sock, I think is
what it is in the book, right, So yeah, and
then Dobby's like, wow, a sock, like.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
He interpreted it.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Well, he throws the sock away basically, and Dobby catches it.

Speaker 4 (53:48):
Is that what happens? I don't remember?

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Yeah, so I think that's a technicality, a loophole. But
can you put intent into the object, like as she's
making them, can she say I want any elf who
picks us up to be set free?

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Well?

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Or is it the intent of just? Or is it
the intent of just? Like I am making these hats
for elves? Does that make sense instead of being like
I'm making this hat for a person and it just
gets left in the common room and they pick it up.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Whatever?

Speaker 5 (54:21):
You know, we need a norma ray houself, like a
serious union houseelf, you know, like the idea of if,
the if the intention here? Because I struggle with intention
simply because you know so much pain has been caused
from intention and then engaging in harmful behavior. But the

(54:42):
idea of this is so powerful, like I would because
then it makes me think a little bit about Unbridge's quill.
If we can give intention, if we can charm intention
into objects, what happens when people pick it up and
engage particular behavior? I don't know. It's it's the kind

(55:03):
of things that I struggle with because I still see
Hermione as having this moral superiority, which because and ultimately,
if Dobe is getting paid, is he getting paid as
much as Filch or as some of the professors? What
are the benefits? You know? Where is their labor equitable
distribution here? I mean, and if all of this house

(55:25):
selves were suddenly freed, how would that translate it into harbor?

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Well, because we know that, I think, what is it?
Dobby says he gets like a gallion a week or
something gallion a week and Dumbledore I had originally offered
him ten, right, and he was like, no, I can't
do that, right, that's too much. So that's the other
thing that comes into play here that I think every
time we bring up house elves, we're like, what is
actually happening here? Because there's so much that almost like

(55:52):
contradicts each other.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Yeah, that you can't really get a clear read on.
Is it a magically binding contract? Is is it something else?
Is there?

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Like do they just enjoy it? Is that just something
that gives them fulfillment in life?

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Is there? Like?

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Like there is that ye just conditioned into them? Is
what is going on? Like?

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Is it a contract? But do they have their freedom
to negotiate the contract. And is it like an open,
open terms kind of situation, were at any time they
can end their contract and they're not like locked into
a certain number of years or.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Are they just born into it and they're just magically
indentured for the rest of their life? Wow, Like yeah,
without choice, you know.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
And again you drawing from like because they're very specifically
from a very specific type of folklore, right, and so
like where does that come into play? But then also
these other things that complicate that.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
It's so much.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
Yeah, I think I think we should move that move
on and leave that to our listeners to continue to
pon them, because they were like four hundred comments on
the original podcast Question of the Week, so it's a
hot butter topic. Yeah, truly.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Well, a random question that I have that has probably
nothing to do with anything. We see them at breakfast
the next morning and Hermione mentions that she's pouring coffee,
and I think this is the first time that we
see coffee appear at all, because it's usually you know,
a cup of tea or a pumpkin juice. So is

(57:29):
this something that's only available to like the older students
because they know that they're staying up later doing more work.
Oh or has the coffee always been there? Wor did
the coffee come from?

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Which?

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Again I know this this completely overthought, but it just
it was random to me, like Hermione's pouring coffee.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Wait what, I would assume it's always been there.

Speaker 4 (57:53):
I've never paide attention. I'm not a coffee drinker, so I.

Speaker 5 (57:55):
Never noticed that I am a coffee drinker. I was like,
is this some kind of American influence here? You know
what kind of coffee is it? Is it like watery
coffee or is that delicious Brazilian coffee?

Speaker 1 (58:06):
You know?

Speaker 5 (58:06):
What is it?

Speaker 3 (58:07):
This is good coffee, back coffee coffee.

Speaker 5 (58:09):
You know.

Speaker 4 (58:10):
I know a couple of Brits who drink coffee, but
they don't drink it anywhere anywhere near like Americans do. No, yea,
not even close. And it's usually in the evening, not
the mornings. I don't know Brent that I think that's
an interesting question. Is it an American influence here?

Speaker 2 (58:31):
I mean, I know, I know it happens. I mean,
tea is the more preferred, so I would assume it's
been there.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
But maybe just I think like most younger kids. Just
I mean, I don't know because I don't. I don't
drink coffee, but just from observing students, most of them
don't get hooked on that until they're a little bit old, older,
like fourteen fifteen anyway. Yeah, so it would make sense

(59:06):
that this is kind of when.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
So maybe it was there, but yeah, I ever noticed it, Yeah,
which I just I found it weird that it was
even there. So I'm like, coffee, We're in Scotland, are they.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
They do they do drink coffee.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
I mean I know they drink coffee, but like it
was just it was weird to me. It was odd.
That was all. Like, it was just it was really odd.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Hermione's had a night.

Speaker 5 (59:30):
She's like she has She's had said most of the night.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, She's like, this is this is time for emergency
right stream.

Speaker 5 (59:41):
I need some coffee.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
She need the bringing the big guns, Like the coffee
tea is not going to work today, pumpkin juice, it
ain't gonna kind of team were even beyond that.

Speaker 5 (59:55):
So can we talk about the teachers?

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Yes, oh god, they go to class.

Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Okay. So when I was reading this and re listening
to this, I was like, oh my god. And I'm
because I'm a professor and I teach. Teaching is like
what I do. And I was just like, I can't
imagine talking to my students this way like a Snape
does with his with his students. And but I think

(01:00:25):
more so, if I've often said, I think, frankly, one
of the best teachers in this whole place, besides McGonagall,
is actually hagrid because he engages in what I like
to call experiential learning, is that he's not a threatening presence.
He's approachable, he's available, he's accessible, and he lets students
engage in like what is a an experiential learning process

(01:00:51):
with you know, I mean, granted, the judgment is a
little bit skewed there because they're often deadly dangerous animals,
you know. But besides that, you know, but your had
folks like Grubbly Plank, who's just like business as usual
in this episode, well in this in this chapter, and
you have you know, Snape, who's a bully as usual, uh,

(01:01:13):
And and you have McGonagall, who's a bit of a rebel,
like have a biscuit, botterr have a biscuit. When he's
telling her about what happened in Umberge's classes, and of
course Umbradge is the epitome of the state, like she
represents the ministry like and again she's using like her
power of discretion, all street level bureaucrats as you know,

(01:01:35):
like she gets to make that stuff up in the moment,
all under the guise of a ministry approved curriculum, right,
and you have this ridiculous notion that she brings the
power of the entire ministry behind her, which ultimately she
does in trying to navigate it, and how the students
respond is quite rebellious.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
I just have to say what you said about Hagrid,
I had a full on Captain Holt vind Cash.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Hagar is a controversial figure on this podcast with some
of our husky Yeah, so a good thing YouTube would
be in fisticuffs right now.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
So vindicated.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
But I also picked up on that because every time
I read that bit, because I teach high school English,
so I think about this and especially with these kids,
these teenagers, like finding that balance between making sure that
kids take things like that seriously because they don't always
think long term, but you know, like taking that seriously

(01:02:47):
but not stressing them out unduly is so difficult, and
I think I think they all do it to different levels.
Like I think McGonagall obviously probably does it the best,
where she's like, this is how it is, this is important,
but she's like, but I think if you all put
in the work, you're all gonna be fine, right, And
she even has that bit to Neville where she's like, yes,

(01:03:07):
even you long Bottom, you can get an owl in
this class if you bet in the works.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
And then there's there's Flitwick, who maybe gets close to
it and doesn't quite he's just kind of like, your
owls are coming and they're important, right, And then there's
Snape who's terrible about it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
You know whatever, we don't have to go down that
rabbit hole we've got down in a lot. But yeah,
it's it's just such a balance I do have. I
think Hagrid's teaching.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
The thing about Haggard's teaching in this chapter that I
think is funny is that it specifically says like Harry
knows he had just seen an exemplary care of magical creature's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Lesson and he was very annoyed about.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
It, Like he's so Hagrid, though, I do think you're right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
I mean, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Grubbley Plank to an extent is trying to do the
same thing too, with like the the experience, right, because
she's like, here's here's the actual bow truckles, and you're
going to look at them and you're gonna draw a
diagram and whatever. But I also think at the same time,
she's like, I'm going to staying out of some of
this craziness that's happening in Hogwarts, Like I'm just not
gonna get involved because I'm here as a substitute.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I don't need to be involved.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Well, yeah, all of the emphasis on ow wells though
I mean me as a student, I hear you that
some of them do it better than others. It would
stress me out because like, imagine having to choose your
entire future at fifteen, because I looked it up and Muggles,
the average Muggle has three to seven career changes in

(01:04:38):
their lifetime. Do wizards have that many? How do they
change careers? Because as far as we know, other than
if you're going to become a healer or an orr,
there's like no post Hogwarts school, there's no higher education
in the wizarding world. So are you just screwed. Like,

(01:04:58):
let's say let's you you know, Let's say Charlie's like, yeah,
I want to go work with dragons, and then a
dragon bites his legs off and you can't work with
dragons anymore? Is he just sool like, oh, well, that's
the only training I have. So I guess I'm just retired.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
That's an interesting question because I don't think we ever
see anyone change careers like that. Everyone.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
I mean, Ludo Bagman was a quidditch player and then
became a politician. But I feel like anybody can become
a politician. Yeah, I feel like that's like, that's the
only example I could really. I guess Kharkarov death theater
to headmaster, but maybe he wanted to be a teacher before.
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
I mean, I think it would almost be like choosing
a major in some degree, right, Like you were going
towards one direction and then there are certain skills that
could be applicable to other fields that maybe then you
could switch that way and you could be like, oh, yeah,
I used to work in.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Uh can I think of anything right now? No, of
course not, but but I.

Speaker 4 (01:06:09):
Mean it used to be Barty crouches now, but I
mean they're.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
They're kind of is some of that right, Like, yeah,
let's take Pershy for example, right, he's writing these reports
on like cauldron bottom thickness and like regulation, and so
those skills of being able to do that kind of
like technical writing and like data collection and analysis and
those kinds of things would probably be applicable to another

(01:06:43):
department or another I mean, he could probably even be
like go into like quality assurance at Weasley's Wizard just bureacracy.

Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
I mean that's not like, well, yeah, but when you
think about change, you know, I hear you.

Speaker 5 (01:07:00):
But if you think a little bit about it though,
like when they're having a conversation in this chapter about
what they want to do, I agree with you. Fifteen
year old is entirely too much pressure, even though like
the whole notion of adolescence is a like Western Eurocentric concept.
In other cultures and countries, adolescence doesn't really exist. You like,

(01:07:21):
you've hit a certain age and you're expected to get
a trade or get married or have kids or what
have you. But and that you know the idea of
what it means at that age or trying to figure
out what you want to do. I like the notion
of trying to figure out, like what your major is.
That makes it that's a great, great connection. But I
think they were they were talking about, you know, I
want to be an Orr. It's so cool. I want

(01:07:42):
to be an Orr, you know that kind of stuff.
And I was like, Okay, what are you going to
do if like you get all of the dark Wizards?
What do you do?

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Then?

Speaker 5 (01:07:49):
Are you a police? Like what do you do? You know?
And to some oars get desk duty? Is there an
ia of ors?

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
You know?

Speaker 5 (01:07:58):
You know and all that, But then thinking about like
Hermione was like, no, I want to do something that's
really going to make a difference. I want to do
something that's really going to make a difference in that
And they were like, well what and she her answer
was spew. That's what she was. She was like, I
want to see what I could do with spew. She
wants to pursue advocacy in her own mind. Regardless of

(01:08:19):
what you think about Skew spew. I think it's a
quite a powerful moment for her to think about, like
I want and it's her. I think again, it's her
gryffindor passion for justice to try to I want to
continue to do this kind of work. And I think
at that point Harry and Ron are not thinking along
those lines. They're like, uh, you know, I want to

(01:08:40):
be an area. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
I mean I think I think to some degree too,
It's like Harry feels like his path has.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Already been laid in front of him, right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
He's like, if I got to take on Baltimore anyway,
I might as well go be part of this group, right,
And I think Ron to some extent has been like
I was kind of lost until Harry and I became friends, right,
Like I was kind of just whatever, And that also
kind of gave me a point.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Nobody get mad at me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
They all though, kind of do shift right Like Hermione
takes her advocacy and goes into certain departments of the
ministry and then finally leads herself up to Minister for Magic.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Right in that advocacy to try and do those things.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Ron goes and becomes an or for a little bit,
and then is finally like, I think I'm done with this,
and so he goes and he works for Weasley's wizard
Reazes and he becomes a house spouse, right, which I
love that for him so much. So, you know, like
they do kind of shift that way they find the
things that they do. Like it's so fascinating too, because

(01:09:41):
obviously owls are the equivalent of like GCSEs, right, and
newts are like the equivalent of a levels And it's
like that happens in Europe all the time, right, So
I always find it fascinating to be like, how did
you be?

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Like this is what I'm doing for my life.

Speaker 5 (01:09:59):
Again, I come to the notion of capitalism, which is
pushing the idea of you have to figure out who
you're going to be, you know, as opposed to you know,
which translates into what you do, like for the good
of society.

Speaker 4 (01:10:12):
How do you make money?

Speaker 5 (01:10:14):
How do you make money? How do you do all
this economic you know, how do you keep our economic
system functioning? And all that? And I've you know, owls
certainly and newts certainly represent all of that notion about
this is how we quantify whether or not you're good enough, right, supremacy,
This is how we quantify with And that's what gres are,
That's what SATs are, That's what all of these ideas

(01:10:36):
of how we kind of navigate that, and you know,
and that's often an inequitable challenge. I mean, Christopher Emden
says that education is the civil rights issue of our time,
and I think this is one of the areas that
is so inequitable. Like how are people supported at Hogwarts
if they don't do as well and their owls are newts?
Like what do they do after they graduate? Do they

(01:10:57):
go into poverty if they can't get a good job
and make enough galleons? You know? Versus like what does
it mean to pursue a job at Hogwarts or in
the ministry or you know doing something you know, like
getting opening a shop and diagonally?

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
Well, yeah, I mean we've talked about that before. Like
let's say you only get one owl, you only pass
one subject? Do you just take one subject in your
six and seventh year at Hogwarts? Is that do you learn?
Do you don't get to learn anything else? They just
cut you off, like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Well they're you know, there are remedial.

Speaker 4 (01:11:34):
Can you can you like, as a sixth year, can
you take potions with the fourth years and like get
better at it? You know, I don't know, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Like can you take a lower level class.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
I don't know if you can take a lower level class,
but we do know there are remedial options offered.

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
I think those are fake.

Speaker 6 (01:11:52):
But yeah, so we we are at this care of
Magical Creature's lesson, which is kind of the biggest lesson
we because beyond that we just kind of see the
teacher said this, and where Haggard is is causing Harry
a lot of stress.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
And then of course Malfoy has to poke the bear,
which I'm always just like, piss off Malfoy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Like song such a snot o.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
Greviley Flank doesn't know where Haggard is, right, I don't
think she does.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Actually, I think we find out. Yeah, I think we
find out that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
Like when Umbrage interviews her, she's just like Doubledore just
got in contact, said you want a couple weeks of
work and I said sure.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
And that I was here.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
Yeah, Like she has no idea where he's at.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Because she's just she's just a sub. She doesn't have
to care about all that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Yeah, she's there to teach her lesson and collective via
gallions and then go on about her life.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Like she live her life.

Speaker 5 (01:12:53):
And overall the students are actually quite pleasant for a
sub Yeah. They were like, okay, we're gonna learn about
Just don't make sure the boat truckles, you know, poke
your eyes out with their sharp claws.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Just care and don't make loud noises.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
She's She's like, I'm here, I'm gonna eat some nice
food from Hogharts, I'm gonna get paid. I'm gonna teach
some kids about creatures ten out of ten.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
Like everything else not my business.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Speaking of people's business, though, I think we get one
of Harry's most underrated sassy lines in this chapter, where
when Hermione is like, don't don't get into it with
Malfoy this year. Right, He's a prefect he you know,
he can make your life difficult, and Harry goes, Wow,
I wonder what it'd be like to have a difficult life.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
It's underrated. It's brilliant. It's just incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
That is gold and that least to.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Going to the greenhouses.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Sorry, here comes Luna bust it out of the greenhouses
to come proclaim how she believes Harry and everything. And
I think it's so interesting because we really get this
social dichotomy here right where everybody is like Luna is weird, right,

(01:14:26):
and Harry when.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
She says that is like, oh, I'm kind of uncomfortable here.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
Right, But then Ernie stands up and says, I also
believe you. And Ernie has just so much more social
capital that his support carries such different weight, right, he
just has such a different ethos than Luna does that
It really, I mean, it is this dichotomy of like, oh,

(01:14:49):
only weirdos believe him, but then Ernie stands up and says, no,
I believe him. And so I think there's almost that
shift of like, oh, well, maybe if other people who
maybe have more wa in their opinions here. It's just
a very interesting study and like perceptions and ethos and
in kind of how we see those things.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Well a little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:15:11):
Yeah, yes, let's believe the white boy instead of the girl.

Speaker 5 (01:15:17):
And her opinion is also discounted because of her connection
to her father and the quibbler, you know, and once
again we have media influence on right, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
And it's also it's a shame that the girl, Hermione,
doesn't that she's so openly what is the word, not
hostile but like disapproving of Luna that she puts her up,
Oh you can do better than her, you don't need
her support, like Hermione, What I come on.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
I think that's more Hermione and Luna's just classic personalities like.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Ron and Harry. They're uncomfortable, but they're not openly rude
to her the way there Hermione is. And that's always
kind of bothered me because I'm like hermid that was unnecessary,
like she was just unnecessarily rude in this meaning.

Speaker 4 (01:16:04):
It's just also not helping the situation. If Harry Potter's
best friend is like, oh, well, you can do better
than her, why should others like take anything either of
them have it? It is rude, It is awful. It's
Hermione's inability to like let go sort of in a

(01:16:26):
sense of what other people think about her, which we
see examples a lot. It's why she shrinks her front
teeth right because people have made fun of them and
she's hated them her whole life. Hermione really struggles a
little bit with that. Like I don't want to say
self confidence maybe like self identity word I think you get.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
I mean, yeah, and no, I agree, I do think
to some degree, it's more just Hermione and Luna have
very clashing personalities, and that's why she's so kind of
dismissive of her.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
But it is, it is that thing I think that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
Hermione, in a very griffind her way, and I say
this as one myself and as Hermione incarnate, is very stubborn.
She's very stubborn, and she only wants the best of
the best, and in that kind of search for justice, right,
she's like, we go straight to the top, and we
get the best of the best, and we only have
the best showing for us, and like that's how we

(01:17:25):
like dominate her, right is. And again it is also
that sense of her of thinking like she knows best, right,
I know best. You don't need people like that who
are weird. You need better people, and you will have
better people. And so that's kind of the Yeah, it's
very hard.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
But isn't Isn't that wildly hypocritical though, because she just
got done preaching for justice and equality for these households,
but here's this person and now it's just like, oh,
we're going to cast this person aside because she's not
good enough, because she's strange.

Speaker 5 (01:18:02):
I think it's actually consistent with her character and that
there's this superiority right, that she has a sense of like,
I know what's best for the house elves, and I
also know it's best for you, Harry, to have your
friend that's that's not really your friend. I mean, look
at her, just look at her, you know, look at
how strange she is and that kind of thing, and
that for me, that still has the flavor of superiority

(01:18:23):
or rather supremacy, even in ways that you know, I
don't think I'm malevolent per se, it can cause harm.
It's one of the things about analyzing characters in this
particular chapter, especially where we see folks who have I
think a lot of really great attributes and a lot
of flaws, uh, you know at the same time, which
is kind of one of the things I think make
for good characters for discussion in a chapter like this,

(01:18:46):
until we get, of course, to umbrage.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
Yeah, which we're we're getting there. But I know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Three Harry's walk into her office and he gets he
gets accosted by Angelina Johnson basically, who comes running in
and is like, how dare you not be a part
of this team?

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
Man?

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
I just have to say, I think it's one of
my favorite like funny lines when Harry's like, should we
go chuck with check with Puddlemere united that Oliver Wood
didn't die because I think Angelina is channeling his spirit.
I'm just I love that so much, which I think
it's so funny, And you all know how much I

(01:19:37):
love my quidditch.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
Teams and my Oliver Woods.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
It just cracks me up as the dressing down she
gives him is definitely woodworthy.

Speaker 4 (01:19:48):
Yes, it's nice to see Harry have a moment of
brevity amongst all of the awfulness that is this first
week at Hogwarts. It's a nice little break for the
Raider too. It's like, oh, okay, I can laugh for
a second. I can like step out of the awfulness,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
But I mean Harry also feels bad, right, He's like,
does she think I want think someone? But he's also like, yeah,
I know I screwed up. I was supposed to be there.
I know we'd had this like yeah, okay, you know.
So he he kind of understands what he did, but
it is also very funny of.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
Him to be like, what do you think I wanted
to do? Angelina? Like, what do you think is happening here?
And that I think, is that taking.

Speaker 3 (01:20:34):
Us to their homework.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
Oh, yes, because they do have homework before he leaves Homer.

Speaker 3 (01:20:42):
Oh my god, the mountain of homework. This is so
wild to me. So I got a little bit confused
when I was listening to this because didn't it used
to be where they didn't have all their classes every day?
They don't, didn't, Okay, So if they don't have all
of their classes ever every day, why are they having

(01:21:03):
to get this stuff done so quickly? But then it's
but there's a point where it's Harry or Hermione and
someone says that their essay about the boat truckles is
due tomorrow back in Care of Magical Creatures, So this
is suggesting that they do have their classes every day.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
So they don't have classes every day. But I think
they just don't want it to pile up like the
work because they're getting I mean, they have to write
like full essays about everything.

Speaker 5 (01:21:35):
Well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:35):
But then mcgonaga tells them when they're doing the vanishing
the vanishing charms bee, go home and go back to
the common room wherever and practice and be prepared to
come back tomorrow to do it again.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
Might have some classes every day or like on repeating
days or subsequent days, they have like a because I've
tried to figure this out, they have almost like a
block schedule, but not like it's it's a very interesting timetable. Sorry,
I'm looking to see if I can figure out.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
Like it was just it's very strange to me.

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):
A lexicon has the detail.

Speaker 5 (01:22:13):
Yeah, I will say that the the type of homework,
like as a as a teacher who assigns homework, the
types of homework, I was like, okay, they actually are
quite the breadth of it is quite great because it
uses all different parts of the brain. Like they have
to draw the boat truckle right, which is a lot

(01:22:34):
of creativity and like you know, thought to like manual dexterity.
They have to write essays like what is it a
foot and an inch on moonstones? The properties and potions.
They have to then keep a dream journal like which

(01:22:54):
is reflexivity and all of this. Like as a teacher,
I'm like, oh, they the teachers have done a great,
great job with diversifying these homework assignments.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
And practicality of practicing the spell of vanishing spells.

Speaker 5 (01:23:08):
Right exact skills, right skills, and I just I thought
it was great. And then of course you have umbrage
who's like nothing, you know, because read your freaking book.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
I will get into this. She has no pedological training,
and that's why she sucks that part. She sucks so much.

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
Because she has zero pedological training. And it's the exact
it's the same thing of if I can get on
a soapbox permanent. Anyone who comes in and says I
think I know what we should do with education, who
has not been in a classroom like as a teacher,
needs to shut up because you have no idea what
it's actually like to be sitting in front of thirty

(01:23:47):
some odd kids trying to balance that and trying to
differentiate for all of them and do classroom management.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
And teach them content. When you know, Johnny and Susie
over here are having a tiff because they used to
be dating and now they're not anymore. And these people
over here.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
Having an issue because so and so said something rude
at lunch, and these it's a nightmare. So don't come
and try and tell me how to do anything.

Speaker 5 (01:24:17):
I think that you are my sister from another myster
I have to say, because the reality I am so
all there, like, my doctorate is in education, and so
when it's it's it's and I teach pedagogy, right, And
so one of the things that makes me nuts is
when the people like people who will get a big

(01:24:40):
degree and they go to a university or college or whatever,
and they get a job as a professor and they're
handed a syllabus and they're told go teach, and they've
not had one class on pedagogy or how to teach,
not even about educational theory or learning styles or anything right,
not to mention culture or trauma. But the the heart

(01:25:00):
that's powerful then is that it's the notion of what
it means to take time and energy to learn, how
to navigate all of that stuff with regard to scope
and sequence, what's your educational philosophy, you know, blah blah
blah blah blah. And I think the challenges is that
so many people feel it's equivalent of saying, well, you

(01:25:22):
graduated with a doctorate in chemistry, so now you're going
to do critical incident debriefing with a fifteen year old
who is struggling with depression and anxiety, and you're going
to do systematic desensitization to help navigate those things in
a trauma informed way go. They have no training how
to do it, and it's one of the reasons why

(01:25:45):
our salaries Yep, because I had.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
To bring this up actually just a little bit ago.

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
Is because you know, the whole big push now is
AI AI teaching the kids how to use AI.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
And I had to.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Bring this up to somebody who works at the district
who has never been in a classroom before, and I
was like.

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
So, children's and adolescent brains.

Speaker 1 (01:26:05):
Don't function the way adults do, and they're not going
to be able to do some of these things that
you think they should do, and how an adult would
approach AI because their brains don't work that way. And
it was like, I was like, why is no one
understanding this? Like does no one who works in these
positions have any clue about like childhood and adolescent brain development?

(01:26:29):
Like I had to take classes on that and anyway,
So yeah, no, it is. It's one of those things
I think that makes me so upset about umbrage is
like she obviously she's like she's like admin or district
or like or government people right who step in and
say education should be like this, and it's like, you

(01:26:50):
have no idea what you're talking about because you have
never actually spent time in a classroom. Yeah, looked at
you know, had to deal with let me jump one
hundred and sixty kids plus.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
Every day, you know, and.

Speaker 5 (01:27:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the things
about Umberds, can I go now.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
With the yeah, we're here, we're there.

Speaker 5 (01:27:16):
And please interrupt me or whatever, just because I have
a But one of the things that I struggle with sometimes,
which I think is good, that gets me in my
own way of being able to just say, oh, she's
a much is the notion of what it means is
in my training, is to see someone's like their behavior
in the moment as just an extension of stuff that
has occurred throughout their lives and their attitudes and their histories.

(01:27:39):
And so whenever I see you know, even the name
umbrage is you know, it means sorrow, right, which I
think embodies so much of who she is as a
person because of her own history of trauma and how
her own trauma basically it gets completely played out on
anybody in front of her, you know, with her history
of being a half blood and having a muggle and

(01:28:00):
a squib brother and a failing wizard of a father
who ultimately ends up being for all intentsive purposes, a
custodian at the at the Ministry, and her whole history
of being othered and bellied at Hogwarts, then going to
Hogwarts is a complete trigger for her. I think she
is having a massive psycho episode. Uh, you know when

(01:28:22):
she goes to Hogwarts, because she is suddenly imbued with
power and authority of the of some of the greatest kind,
not just governmental but magical, right, and she then is
able to exert domination. And this is all one big
reaction to a trauma trigger, coupled with a long standing

(01:28:46):
plan to deal with Dumbledore and ultimately kind of diffuse
the Potter problem, if you will, And she does that
by domination and machinations. I'vesolutely love. I mean, later we
see her, uh you know kind of ban quidditch, you know,

(01:29:06):
through banning or student organizations and all kinds of stuff
which you can't tell me that she was not super
happy about and was drooling over because of the domination
over athletics in that moment. Uh. And what athletics mean
that any institution is often one of great power, social capital,
and money. But in that moment, it was like, oh yeah,

(01:29:27):
I get to And she is the epitome of the
notion of control. And when umbradge, when her control is
threatened in class by students overall hermione first, right, and
everybody's staring at hermione when her hands up like this,

(01:29:49):
what she wants to talk? Uh? You know? And and
is you know? And then and she continues to impose
the classroom management style of students will raise their hands
when they wish to speak in my class, and people
continually don't do that, and she continually redirects them and
corrects them. And you know, Alison thinking of it, the

(01:30:10):
notion of what if it was one hundred and fifty
students in that class, you know, she would have been overrun,
you know, but it wasn't. And I think in many ways,
Harry in those moments represents a lot of the history
of the people who abuse Dolorous and you know, and
he of course represents a sense of truth, resistance and

(01:30:33):
so on and so forth. Now, I don't want to
paint a sympathetic picture of Dolores, Like you know, people
are responsible for their own freaking behavior, especially adults, right,
And her trauma is being played out in ways that
are evil and tortuous and malignant and infectious, which to

(01:30:54):
me is like the notion of dominance. It's this huge framework.
And that is how she functions in the world. Go
in and you dominate, and you do that with lots
of different tools. You do that through pink laughter, you
do that through feminine wiles, you do that through torture,
you do that through murder, you do that through machinations,

(01:31:18):
uh and direct confrontation and intimidations. Uh And and I
think that's one of the things that is so powerful,
Like torture is the foreplay of authoritarianism. Like that's what
it is, uh it it And and as she is
torturing Harry, she is embodying her own approach to how

(01:31:44):
she feels like students should behave. Uh And and that
the role that she is a teacher, uh you know,
the ultimately you know, still the undersecretary from the ministry,
but still serving as soon to be the head mistress
of Hogwarts, you know. But what that means is her

(01:32:05):
role there is powerful. And she continues to bring Harry
back because she wants the scars to be evident. She
wants people to see the scars and to end up
using them as fear disguised as a teaching or rather
intimidation tool. And may I say that that is happening

(01:32:26):
right now in the United States where we see the
current president of the United States. Yes, I am going there,
you know, is using that kind of dominance and torture. Yes,
I believe that, and to build and create visible scars
to intimidate forces of resistance from higher education institutions, politicians,

(01:32:51):
people in their own party, et cetera, to bow and
I think one of the biggest factors in that is
where we're left with the notion that cruelty isn't just
the point, it's the policy. Cruelty isn't just the point,
it's the policy. And that is where we meet Umbrage

(01:33:14):
in that moment of great internal psychological trauma, trigger reaction
with an appetite for dominance because she has the access
through the minister and through ultimately her own personality, which
is just one of dominance in torture. And I have
other things, but I want to shut up for a second.

Speaker 1 (01:33:36):
That may be the single most nuanced and getting not
absolutely sympathetic, but getting close to sympathetic, like breakdown of
Umbrage I have ever heard my entire life, and it
was brilliant.

Speaker 5 (01:33:50):
Oh thanks. I obsessed about her a bit because I.

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):
Think it is so easy to just be like she's
awful and just to completely hate her.

Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
But I think it is also so important to to
break down why she does what she does, like without
excusing her, but to break that down and to understand
that nuance, because yeah, this is it's horrific. What happens
during these detentions, like this quill is horrible, Like, yeah,

(01:34:26):
we know it's of her own invention and it's terrible
on the quill itself. But I guess what my question
then came to is knowing this quill is so horrific
and it's a form of torture. Is Harry being unethical
by not telling someone about it, because if he'd had,
he may have prevented future harm to himself and others.

Speaker 4 (01:34:49):
I don't know if ethical is the word. I feel
like the whole, the whole thing is so beyond ethical.
I mean it, What Umbrage is doing to Harry is
physical and psychological torture. And the fact that as you said,
she invented this herself. Just speaks to everything Brent pointed

(01:35:11):
out about the fact that she this is who she
is as a person, and this is how she feels
like she can exert control over some of these people.
And the cruelty is the point. The cruelty is the point.
And I feel like that has become such a prevalent
saying in life these days. But it's so applicable here.

(01:35:32):
But I mean, is I mean like unethical, yes, but
it is so far beyond that. And I do think
that Harry is shirking a responsibility here to speak up.
You know, he's got this saving people thing. Where is it?

(01:35:53):
Is it gone?

Speaker 2 (01:35:55):
Like?

Speaker 4 (01:35:55):
Why aren't why are you not saving other people here?
That is something that he loves to do.

Speaker 3 (01:36:02):
You know, I don't think it's I don't think unethical
is necessar the word that I would use, And I
don't think he's necessarily shirking a responsibility to save other people.
I think Harry is so within himself right now that
he's thinking that this is only happening to him, that
she's targeting him, And I don't think he sees the
bigger picture and realizes, hey, this might be happening to

(01:36:25):
other people too. He truly just sees that it's just him.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Well, because that's almost Harry's saving people thing, right is
He's like, if I stand up and I'm the one
who gets it, then no one else will get hurt, right.

Speaker 2 (01:36:38):
He's almost I mean it's it's almost in a.

Speaker 1 (01:36:42):
Weird way, it's almost a foreshadowing of what he's going
to do in Deathly Hallows right where he's like, if
I take it like he sacrifice, I am the sacrifice,
then nobody else gets hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:36:52):
And so yeah, that could be what he's doing.

Speaker 5 (01:36:54):
I think though that the one of the challenges here
is that like, yeah, it's an ethical but beyond you know,
just the whole, the whole thing. I don't know if
I would apply that to Harry per Se, simply because
I don't think. I mean, remember, he's an adolescent and
he's just been tortured and you know, and so my
guess is, like most like any of us, I think

(01:37:18):
the psychological defense mechanism of dissociation is a completely an
appropriate outcome in a moment like that, because he's constantly
harming himself, that blood is running down his arm and
stuff and so what does he do. He situates himself
in the office so that he can see out the
window and put himself out in the quidditch match in

(01:37:38):
the pitch to see what's happening. And like that is
like in any kind of trauma work, that is classic dissociation, right,
And when people are dissociating, they're not thinking about protecting
other people. They're gone, like they're absent. They are thinking
about just being absent, you know, in that to get

(01:37:59):
through this moment. But I think that the experience of
the whole environment is one like detention is a psychology
of dominance in torture, was starting with the office itself,
which is like this systematic environment designed to create an
alien experience where you feel a sense of uncertainty. What

(01:38:22):
is this? It feels fake? And Harry's been in that
office when there have been so many different experiences of
a defense against the dark arts. He's just where he's
felt welcome and where he's not, you know, and where
he's felt lied to, and where he feels like people
speak the truth. The whole attitude of umbrage is what
I like to call like the definition of whining, which

(01:38:44):
is raged through a tiny hole like, and that's what
umbrage is. She's like, she's screaming, She's screaming at us
in that moment when she speaks in that sing song
petulant little voice as a way of like that, because
that's how she has taught that she can get what

(01:39:05):
she wanted. And then of course it's detention, and then
Harry experiences it, and then he has to wait until
the next one and it becomes this psychologic, psychological torture
of dread. That is one of the things if anybody
has ever had to go to gym class the night before,
I always used to get sick because I dreaded it

(01:39:25):
because of what would happen right as part of it.
And umbert uses the quill like the feather quill, which
is a tool of torture that's just disguised as normalcy.
It's just like, this is what we use, this is
what we do, and you know, and when in her
first time, when she's presenting it, like I've often said,

(01:39:46):
the most terrifying line in the whole series to me
is the one that she says when she gives instructions
after Harry has questioned her, like I don't have any ink.
She says, Oh, you won't need any like to me.
That's just like wow, Like she knows exactly what's gonna happen.
She's excited and slobbering at the that the like the

(01:40:08):
torture and pain that's gonna happen. And then the whole
process is this slow, methodical realization of how the victim
can experience pain and she revels in it, and you know,
and and when he tried to be like ask her request, right,
can you please maybe let me go so I can

(01:40:28):
do quidditch? He just put the cherry on top for her.
She was like, Hello, you're gonna sit here, and I'm
gonna love it. She's like sopping it up with a biscuit, right,
And and I think Harry's not telling people is really
about like when he comes to himself twofold, you know,

(01:40:51):
later after the experience and he started to come back
to himself. Is his determination to resist by either not
crying out or telling anybody, is that he feels like
that is part of how I don't think he's thinking
that she's going to hurt anybody. I don't think he's
there yet, you know. I think he feels like in
what you have all said that he can absorb that

(01:41:13):
for other people ultimately, and by doing that, he's not
going to bother or a Dumbledore with this. So I
think it's just that it's such a vicious moment. The
whole experience of detention is both evil and one that
I think we see understandably fold out from somebody who
is damaged.

Speaker 1 (01:41:35):
Speaking, So like, okay, so if Harry doesn't say anything, though,
here's my next question.

Speaker 2 (01:41:40):
Should Ron have said something? Though?

Speaker 1 (01:41:42):
I was gonna bring this up later, but is Ron
refusing to go to an adult.

Speaker 2 (01:41:46):
Which, on the one hand, I'm like that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:41:49):
Right for four kids, that kind of like code of
secrecy is a big deal, right, and and that's just
kind of developmental and whatever, And that's why you have
to tell kids, right, Like, if something's happening to someone, you.

Speaker 2 (01:42:01):
Need to sell an adult, right. But should Ron have
said something once he knew this?

Speaker 1 (01:42:07):
Should he have gone to McGonagall and been like, Harry's
literally being tortured, Like, should he have said something?

Speaker 3 (01:42:14):
I think in this moment, Ron is hesitant to say
something just because of the frame of mind that Harry
has been in for you know, this entire you know,
couple of weeks well from the summertime up until now,
and he knows Harry has explicitly said no, I don't
want to tell anyone. If he was to go against that,
that would then create such backlash and another rift between

(01:42:38):
him and Harry, and I don't think Ron wants to
step into that.

Speaker 4 (01:42:41):
Well, it begs the question then, I mean, when Hermione
eventually finds out, it takes her a long time to
say or do anything about it. I mean, she just
sort of comes up with the essence of ditty and
is sort of soothing Harry. So I mean you could
almost ask, I mean not almost, you could ask the
same question there, why doesn't Hermione say anything? Hermione, the

(01:43:02):
one who we have talked about h has this line,
and she, you know, she does obviously do something. They
start a Dumbledore's army and she sort of starts her
own private rebellion. But where is that? Where is that?
Why isn't she telling anybody? And where is that sort
of trust in the adults that we know Harry doesn't have.

(01:43:27):
But it sort of transfers to the two of them
a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:43:30):
I think, especially in these cases, almost too.

Speaker 1 (01:43:32):
It's they've come to trust Harry so much that if
Harry says he's not going.

Speaker 2 (01:43:38):
To trust anyone else, then they're going to stick with him.

Speaker 4 (01:43:42):
Well until we get to have blood prints, and then
they don't trust him at all.

Speaker 5 (01:43:45):
But that's but I think that here they're being adolescents,
Like they're just being fifteen year olds whose brains are
still developing, and they're just like, oh, we don't know
what to do. You know, this is terrible. What should
we do? And Harry's like, do anything, I will handle it.
And the thing is is that Harry has, like what

(01:44:05):
four big stories behind him were Ultimately Harry handled a
lot of it and he was smart and a lot
of things. Now granted he would have completely not been
successful had it not been for his friends, But I
think that that's adolescent. I'm thinking, right, there's concrete thinking,
there's absolute, and there's also trauma. Like, there's trauma this.

(01:44:27):
I mean, this kid has been through so much and
so it doesn't surprise me. He's like, just don't don't
just let it, let it be. I'll handle it.

Speaker 4 (01:44:35):
That makes me so sad, it does.

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):
It really is?

Speaker 3 (01:44:38):
It's yeah, this is heavy, No, it is hard stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:44:45):
And it's one of those things I think you don't
realize the weight of until you're older. Like we've talked
about this before. How Like when I was younger and
I read this book, I would get so angry at Harry,
and I'd be like, just stop yelling at the people
who care about you. I think as I've gotten older,
I've come to understand. I still don't agree with him
necessarily because I'm like, Harry, these people want.

Speaker 3 (01:45:05):
To help you, but I don't understand why.

Speaker 1 (01:45:09):
Yeah, yeah, And I understand, yeah, like why he does
what he does.

Speaker 5 (01:45:14):
My question is where are the adults? They know who
Umbridge is. Where are the adults? I mean, one of
the worst things about being a gay kid in the
nineteen eighties in rural Pennsylvania in high school, being called
all kinds of horrible names and being tortured was the
silence of all the adults who knew exactly what was

(01:45:35):
going on, who basically communicated that that was okay. You
can't tell me that the Great Dumbledore who knows all
doesn't have at least an inkling that maybe this person
should be watched a bit more closely.

Speaker 1 (01:45:49):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think they know about the
Quill until that comes out, until later.

Speaker 2 (01:45:56):
And I think they are watching.

Speaker 1 (01:45:58):
But I mean, I honestly think to some degree Dumbledore
probably could have and should have done something more, but
he's off doing other things when he should be running
a school.

Speaker 2 (01:46:08):
But I think other teachers that part.

Speaker 1 (01:46:11):
It's really hard, I think, to step into there someplace
when they also know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
The government's looking.

Speaker 1 (01:46:17):
Over our shoulder basically, and they're looking for ways to
take us apart. And so it's one thing I've always
kind of loved about McGonagall in this book is McGonagall
does her bit, almost that rebellious bit of I will
take care of my own right, and she's like, I will,
I will encircle my little chickadees in my you know,
my students in.

Speaker 2 (01:46:36):
My as much as I can. But in order to.

Speaker 1 (01:46:43):
I mean, because we see it by the end of
the book, right when Umbridge starts going after professors, and
she starts she fires Trelawney, she goes after Hagrid, she
goes she starts doing these evaluations that are completely biased
and unfair, and I think there's almost this this fear
of I need to for some of these professors. If

(01:47:03):
I need to stay here to help these kids, right
like someone has to be here to help protect them
because and so I kind of need to like keep
my mouth shut in certain situations and work more behind
the scenes so that I can help these kids because
otherwise it could be a whole lot worse for them
for them, which I totally get that that instinct, but

(01:47:26):
it also is very frustrating, right Yeah, to be like
say something.

Speaker 5 (01:47:33):
Yeah, where's the oversight?

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
Yeah, for real, that Board of Governors is useless.

Speaker 4 (01:47:41):
Well, come on, lucious, of course it's useless usus lucious.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
Lucious lucious.

Speaker 4 (01:47:51):
Yeah, say that five times fast. Huh.

Speaker 5 (01:47:54):
You have to write that on the back of your hand.
That would be awful. Oh wow, it's gonna be.

Speaker 3 (01:48:00):
I do have to say something that's probably a little
bit controversial about on bridge where Harry. Harry first of all,
actually has the balls to even ask her about delaying
his attention, like okay, okay, Harry, But the fact that
that bridge basically tells him no, that would defeat the

(01:48:21):
purpose of a punishment. If I give you what you
want for your convenience, absolutely not, which I mean I
have to agree, like that detention is here as a punishment.
It's not on your schedule. Now again, let me let
me put my disclaimer on here. I am in no
way saying that this punishment is deserved or anything like that.
But she was absolutely correct in what she said about

(01:48:45):
not giving him what he wanted because he was there
to be punished, not for a person.

Speaker 4 (01:48:51):
Yeah, yeah, a broken clock is right twice a day. Okay, So.

Speaker 2 (01:48:58):
No, she is.

Speaker 1 (01:49:00):
I have to give Harry props though, for yes, he
had the audacity to ask, but he also didn't keep
pushing the issue once the answer was no, because I
got to tell you, that's one of my number one
things that like drives me nuts is when I'm like,
this is the answer, and then like a kid tries
to argue with me, and I'm like, this is just
the answer.

Speaker 5 (01:49:18):
It's not gonna change, right, it's not happening.

Speaker 4 (01:49:22):
Well, an Umbridge would have just given him more detention
if I pushed. So that was that was that was
smart on him.

Speaker 5 (01:49:28):
Yeah, But and and I think that what it shows
is that his even that he knew what the answer
was going to be before he even asked it. But
I think the part that was so painful was that
and she loved was that she was she was withholding
something that he desperately wanted, and she that the malevolent
joy that she got from that is quite different from

(01:49:52):
you know, yes, a detention should be some kind of
a punishment or what have you. Although I have to
admit as a gen xer who grew up watching The
Breakfast Club, where you know, basically it was just you
sat in the library and made friends with people who
are completely different from you in different groups, and said
you were going to be bestie friends and then never
spoke to each other again, you know, after that in

(01:50:12):
high school angst and drama. But the part that is
so powerful here is that that she was able to
do this alone in an office with the door closed.
You know, like even now as a teacher, I very
rarely am alone with that with a student, and you
know that even adult students, you know, in that way.

(01:50:33):
So it's it's just very different. But come into my
office and the spider to the fly.

Speaker 4 (01:50:38):
It was the nineties, I know, As I mentioned, I
work at a boarding school. I work at a boarding
school and we aren't allowed to have doors that don't
have windows in them. There are no solid doors anywhere
in our school for that exact reason. So, but it's

(01:50:59):
Hogwarts who gives an f right whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
Speaking of but not having very many f's to give
Harry and his homework, I just do have to say
he like scribbles in his dream diary about buying shoes,
and I just love where he's like, she can't make
anything weird out of this, which I think is both
very funny and it's it's kind of funny, but it
also is going to this theme of in this chapter

(01:51:26):
and in this whole book of perceptions and stories and
how you present something right and how people then interpret it,
because that's kind of at the root of what's happening
with all these people not believing Harry, right, is they
got one version of the story, then they were getting
other versions of the story, and they didn't quite know

(01:51:47):
what to believe, and so things were getting confused and
misinformation and lost in translation, and yeah, it becomes a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
But here he is, He's like, I'm just buying shoes.
It's nothing weird. She can't make anything weird out of this.

Speaker 1 (01:52:02):
But it's like Harry, you know, Trelawne, She'll make something
weird out of everything. But I appreciate the effort and
poor Harry staying up in desperation to do his homework
and then just collapsing on the bed like.

Speaker 2 (01:52:19):
Poor boy. It's too relatable, but it also is like, yeah,
you should.

Speaker 5 (01:52:24):
Know her there.

Speaker 4 (01:52:27):
I can't relate to that. But that's just me.

Speaker 2 (01:52:30):
I don't anymore. I have learned that my procrastination does
be no good.

Speaker 3 (01:52:38):
Oh wow, Alon, I'm so proud of you saying.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
I'm good about it. I'm not saying I'm one hundred percent,
but I have learned.

Speaker 3 (01:52:46):
I have not learned, so I I will continue to
go down the path of destruction because it works.

Speaker 5 (01:52:57):
Oh my yes, My my husband likes to say I
put the ass in procrastination. I was like, thank you,
thank you. So I am not a procrastinator. I'm a
detail oriented person who plans obsessively in advance. So I
appreciate that though I do.

Speaker 4 (01:53:14):
Yeah, I really like this exchange that we get between
Ron and Harry in the hallway. I don't know, it
gives me like Harry trying to sneak down the witch's
hump vibes from prisoner. I don't know, there's something about it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:32):
Yeah, I do have to say though it's kind of
sad that Harry almost sorry, Ron almost seems to doubt
that Harry would have supported him in this, like of
course he's gonna want you're his best friend, Like of
course he's gonna want you to be on the team.

Speaker 2 (01:53:46):
He's gonna want to not.

Speaker 1 (01:53:47):
Like Yeah, Like, I just feel I find it kind
of sad, And I mean, obviously it would have made
Harry so much happier, I think, to like have this
to look at, look forward to, or to almost focus
on in some ways. And I also think it would
have made Ron happier to like and probably would have

(01:54:08):
improved Ron's performance right to know Harry was supporting him.
And again I think this just I mean, it obviously
just goes to Ron's like self esteem issues right where,
especially with Harry, he never thinks he's as good as Harry,
and so here he is not only in the shadow
of Harry, but also going to be in the shadow
of at least three brothers right trying out for this team.

Speaker 2 (01:54:32):
And it just makes me sad, Like.

Speaker 5 (01:54:37):
I thought that one of the things that was sad
about that conversation. Yes, I agree with you, but honestly,
the part for me was that Harry was completely in
his trauma right in the moment of that because of
what we're I'm sure we're going to talk about what
happened when Umbridge touched him the last time in detention
and his scar like shot with pain and and what

(01:55:00):
Harry thought about that, But the experience of Harry was
all there, and what happened is Ron then saw him
and was in a very different in what I would
call typical adolescent developmental experience, and it just to me
it contrasted and compared again a sad moment in this
chapter the normative experience of what Ron was having with

(01:55:24):
a great deal of celebration and joy.

Speaker 2 (01:55:26):
I made the team.

Speaker 5 (01:55:27):
I mean, this kid has wanted to make the team
forever and all that kind of stuff, and Harry was
just had to almost shake himself out of his own
trauma in order to be able to acknowledge, even just acknowledge,
because people want to be seeing, heard and known. That's
what Ron wanted in that moment. I wanted to be seen,
heard and known. This is what is normal, and that

(01:55:49):
Harry was not there, to me, that is just the
tragedy of the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (01:55:54):
Yeah, I will have to give it up for Ron though.
The second he sees the scars on Harry's hand, he
like cut himself off and is like, what the heck
is that? And why didn't you tell me what was
actually happening? And he's like a gas right. I think
it even says he actually like grabs Harry's hand so
Harry can't hide it, so he can look at what's happening,
and he like won't let him go for a minute, even,

(01:56:15):
which is you know, being British and teenage boys is
not something that's very usual, right to have that kind
of like physical contact like Ron.

Speaker 2 (01:56:26):
Once Ron knows what's going on, he.

Speaker 1 (01:56:28):
Is like locked in on what the heck this is
sick and twisted and evil and you have to tell someone.
And he's kind of like let go of his own
issues at that moment when he sees Harry is more
having worse issues.

Speaker 4 (01:56:45):
Yeah, I need to take us slightly unserious for a minute,
because so Harry's sitting there, I think this is the
last attention.

Speaker 2 (01:56:54):
Of the week Friday.

Speaker 4 (01:56:56):
Yeah, yeah, and he's watchingquote unquote watching the tryouts and
he can't tell who any of the keepers are. He
has no idea who the keepers are, but he can
tell that Katie is scoring on the keepers, and I
just think it's funny that he he knows that that's
Katie Bell, probably from like her flying style or her

(01:57:17):
hair or something, but he has no idea who the
keepers are because I doubt they're wearing the uniforms or
like their names on the back. It just yeah, I
just needed to go un serious for a minute because
that made me kind of go.

Speaker 1 (01:57:29):
Yeah, no, I I think you're right. It is funny
and I but I do think it is like he's
just played with Katie for so long he recognizes sure
her in the air, and I mean I also wonder
like where, like what the orientation of the field is, right,
like are the keepers farther away? And so that's why
he can't And then if he sees a chaser going up,
it's closer, and so please they're still they're like, no,

(01:57:51):
but it's true.

Speaker 2 (01:57:51):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (01:57:52):
It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure you don't recognize.

Speaker 2 (01:57:56):
Your best friend's bright red hair.

Speaker 1 (01:57:59):
Yeah right, yeah, anyway, Okay, thank you for that moment
of brevity. I do just have to throw out you
know how I love to appreciate writing craft, this Friday dawned,
sullen and sodden like.

Speaker 2 (01:58:16):
Beautiful turn of phrase.

Speaker 4 (01:58:17):
I love it immediately sets the mood, yes, especially for
what Harry is going to.

Speaker 1 (01:58:23):
Experience, and the way it just rolls off the tongue. Oh,
it's beautiful anyway. So we get through the last attention,
which is the worst, but I love that when Harry
goes back to the common room and he confides in
Harmione what happened at that last attention. She again, Hermione

(01:58:43):
just knows them so well, right, she knows right away
what he's worried about. She knows right away that your
scar hurt when Umberge touched you. You're worried that she's
somehow being controlled by Boltimore, and so she's able to
then say the most comforting thing she possibly could say
in that moment. And I just it is just beautiful,
the emotional intelligence that I think Hermione has in some regards.

Speaker 2 (01:59:10):
Sometimes she doesn't, but I think.

Speaker 1 (01:59:13):
Sometimes we don't give her credit for We don't give
enough people credit for emotional intelligence. And she but she
really does know. She knows right away this is what
you're worried about. And let me logically walk you through
why it's probably not happening. How you think it's happening,
because that will lower the temperature maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:59:35):
A little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:59:36):
I mean, but what is happening? What is happening?

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
This is when it's just a coincidence, right.

Speaker 4 (01:59:46):
I mean that's what I thought, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:59:47):
It's just a coincidence, because what happens this moment is.

Speaker 2 (01:59:54):
Wish one is this isn't.

Speaker 4 (01:59:56):
There like an announcement in the next chapter that something
happened or something. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:00:00):
Yes, that's what I'm looking for, because I don't remember
which one it is. It's not the big breakout.

Speaker 4 (02:00:06):
I mean, it really speaks to the evilness of her
though if Harry can but also but also, but also
it adds to it, and it detracts from it because
it makes her an ultimate evil and doesn't just it
sort of removes that, like, oh, she's just a regular evil,

(02:00:27):
you know what I mean, quote unquote, She's just a
crappy person who is doing this to people. She I'm
muddling my words, but I think you get what I'm saying.
She can't be super mad. She must be magical evil.
She can't just be regular Yes.

Speaker 1 (02:00:45):
Evil, magical evil, not regular evil.

Speaker 3 (02:00:52):
There's like levels to levels to evil. This is evil
level one.

Speaker 7 (02:00:56):
Yeah, yeah, I think that the you know, because she's
not a death eater, you know, she's she's an evil
in enough herself, and you know that was crafted and
created and conjured in her childhood and adolescence and then

(02:01:17):
you know, given power to foster and fester into this
pink menace.

Speaker 5 (02:01:22):
Right, and so we end up having this horror story
that touches Harry and has consistently touches Harry, who is
now super vulnerable and in pain and uh and can't
can't protect himself from that, you know that the like
he's raw and this and even before he has acclemency lessons,

(02:01:44):
you know and all that kind of stuff, he can't
protect himself then from whatever that that Boltemore is doing
out in the world that perhaps simultaneously occurs with a
touch of Umbrage. Whether or not that is a coincidence,
it's a good question. It might also just be that,
I mean, yes, Harry Scar was born through Voldemore's attack,

(02:02:09):
you know, but doesn't mean it only ever is touched
by Voldemore. Can his scar hurt or be almost a
Spidey sense if you will, from other kinds of ultimate evil.
And that's a great question.

Speaker 4 (02:02:27):
I mean, she's the only other one that's even remotely
close to Voldemore's level as far as evil that he
crosses paths with. And many, you know, many would argue
worse because she is quote unquote regular evil and not
the magical evil.

Speaker 5 (02:02:43):
I think she's worse by far.

Speaker 2 (02:02:45):
Yeah. Sorry, I'm still looking for where is it? Because
he definitely he we figure this.

Speaker 4 (02:02:55):
Out, all right, keep looking and we'll we'll just wrap
up the chapter while you figure that out. But uh, yeah,
he and Hermione have that conversation. He's like, you know
what I'm gonna write to serious and Hermione he's like,
wait a minute, no, don't put you know, we specifically
we're told not to put that stuff in a letter.
And he's like, listen, I can figure it out. I'm smart,

(02:03:15):
I got it. Don't worry about me, Hermione, I got it,
you know. And one could argue does he figure it out,
because you know, he thinks the letter is really good
that he ultimately writes, But then Malfoy says some stuff.
I mean, that's another chapter, so we don't have to
go there. But frustrating because.

Speaker 5 (02:03:40):
The mirror.

Speaker 1 (02:03:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's I even went and looked it up.
I was like, has he given him the mirror? Bor
at this point he doesn't. He doesn't get in the
mirror until Christmas, And I was like, Bro, you knew
since the summer that letter communications could be tracked and we're.

Speaker 2 (02:03:59):
Intercepted, so why didn't you do it?

Speaker 3 (02:04:01):
Then?

Speaker 2 (02:04:03):
Just frustrating as from that. Tell him how to.

Speaker 3 (02:04:07):
Use it, don't just give him the mirror, tell him
what to do.

Speaker 4 (02:04:12):
Shove it in his hand like it's a dirty object
that's really going to help. Basically take this, Yeah, take it.
But Alison, we're done.

Speaker 2 (02:04:23):
So I know somebody. Somebody will find it.

Speaker 1 (02:04:26):
Somebody will find it and remind me what it is
that he associates.

Speaker 4 (02:04:31):
Why you know where you should probably look for it
in the chapter opposite this, like you know ring theory.

Speaker 2 (02:04:38):
You're right? What chapter is it?

Speaker 4 (02:04:41):
I don't know. I don't know off hand. Don't worry
about it.

Speaker 2 (02:04:43):
The listeners will find it.

Speaker 1 (02:04:45):
It don't come to me at like ten o'clock tonight
and I'll be like, oh, no, shell.

Speaker 4 (02:04:52):
On black and tell us and yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:04:54):
I haven't had listeners. Your your task for attention is
to find this other opulent experience.

Speaker 4 (02:05:02):
But yes, friends, that is where we are going to
leave our chapter. Today. We have to thank Brent aka
Clytie Umbridge for being here with us. I hope you
had a good time.

Speaker 5 (02:05:15):
I had a ball. I had such a great time.
I'm really honored to be here, and i just want
to say thanks for a chance to talk about my
favorite character in the most vile, evil ways that she is.
I mean, it's my favorite. My favorite holiday is Halloween
and it's a season of the Witch Baby, so it's
time it is.

Speaker 4 (02:05:34):
Indeed. Yeah, I know you mentioned it briefly before, but
please remind our listeners if they want to find you
or read any of your any of your scholarship, anything
like that.

Speaker 5 (02:05:47):
Sure, I am actually a real life professor at Widner
University w I D. E. N E. R. Widner, and
i am a professor of social work and I'm on
Facebook and Instagram, Brent Saturley on Facebook, BA Saturday on
Instagram and Blue Sky. I think I'm halloweener. So what

(02:06:08):
you could deal with that with you want, But the
best thing to do is if you're interested in finding me,
is google me. And you'll find my scholarship and junk
online and and it's a lot of fun. I really
appreciate the chance too. I've done some scholarships previously on
Harry Potter. I'm actually going to be speaking on Umbradge

(02:06:29):
as an overseer, you know, similar to what's happening at
Columbia and Penn right now, because there's a metaphor for
exactly what happened with Umbradge as the person who is
going in evaluating teachers and curriculum, which is happening now
at Penn and Columbia because of the oversight of the
federal government, which committe is completely antithetical to education and

(02:06:52):
academic freedom. But the idea is that using some of
that and that will be presented online at the Harry
Potter Academic Conference for Chestnut Hill and Chestnut Hill College, Pennsylvania.
So I love this kind of work. It's great.

Speaker 4 (02:07:07):
Yeah, that's where that's where I met you and found
out about you through all of the through the everybody,
through the everybody. So yeah, we've talked about it. We've
talked about, you know, the Chestnut Hill Conference many times
on this show. But folks, it's online this year.

Speaker 5 (02:07:25):
So no excuses. They go back and forth between on
lining in person.

Speaker 4 (02:07:29):
Right, if you couldn't make it to Pennsylvania in years before,
you can make it online this year. And I think
the registration is like fifteen dollars.

Speaker 5 (02:07:36):
Yes, it's cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.

Speaker 4 (02:07:38):
And you get like twenty different panels and a keynote
and yeah, totally worth it anyway, but I look forward
to that, Clyti, so thank you.

Speaker 5 (02:07:47):
Yes, Clytie will be there in her full form.

Speaker 4 (02:07:49):
Excellent, excellent, She's.

Speaker 5 (02:07:51):
Very moist to meet all of you rows. Although straight
men just can't find me. I don't know why.

Speaker 4 (02:08:01):
Yeah, it's terrible.

Speaker 5 (02:08:06):
I love drag humor, it's so good.

Speaker 2 (02:08:11):
Well speaking of a very street man. Our next chapter
will be.

Speaker 4 (02:08:18):
You could also argue is in drag of some harm?

Speaker 3 (02:08:21):
True?

Speaker 1 (02:08:21):
Yes, true, yes Fire Chapter thirteen Mattai Moody thank you my.

Speaker 3 (02:08:32):
Friends, well friends. If you don't know by now, you
can follow us on pretty much any social media outlet
at alohamor MN or on Facebook at open Dumbledore and
make sure you check out our Instagram to see which
moment is going to be voted for this week. So
this week we have our discovery of what punting is

(02:08:53):
supposed to mean in the books, or learning about ring theory.
So make sure you check it out to figure out
which one of those is going to be voted for
the favorite. And personally, I think the punting is pretty funny.

Speaker 4 (02:09:08):
I mean, it's funny, but everybody better vote for Ring
fail or we're gonna stop. This episode.

Speaker 2 (02:09:18):
Very very very iconic.

Speaker 4 (02:09:22):
They are, Yes, they are moment. I'm just gonna say
only one of them inspired a spin off podcast, but
that is true.

Speaker 3 (02:09:28):
But you know that's true.

Speaker 1 (02:09:29):
I think punting like rewired all of our brains because
we were, like I did.

Speaker 4 (02:09:35):
It's iconic. It's iconic. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:09:37):
Oh, we're getting closer to crowning the top a little more.
A moment of all time, and the competition is fierce.
So remember to subscribe, save, and share this episode with
all of your friends. And with that, this has been
episode seventy three of the Final one hundred.

Speaker 2 (02:09:52):
I'm Shamani, I'm Allison, and I'm kat.

Speaker 4 (02:09:55):
Thank you for listening to episode four hundred and seventy
three of Alohimorra.

Speaker 5 (02:10:00):
Open the Double Door. M m m.

Speaker 8 (02:10:09):
Hm hm. Aloha Mora is produced by Tracy Dunstan. This
episode was edited by Patrick muselek Aloha Mora was co
created by Noah Breed and Cat Miller, and is brought
to you by A p W B d LLC.

Speaker 3 (02:10:27):
M h.

Speaker 2 (02:10:30):
M h.

Speaker 1 (02:10:33):
M hm.

Speaker 2 (02:10:39):
Do do Do Do Do Do Do do do do
do Do Do Do do.

Speaker 4 (02:10:53):
Just eating banana bread from my Internet. We can for
being the Horison

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