OOTP, 26 Revisit: Blind Squirrel

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
This is episode four hundred and fifty five of Aloha
Mora for June seventh, twenty twenty five. Welcome to another

(00:38):
episode of Aloha Mora, the fandom's original Harry Potter book Club.
I'm Grace Candido Beecher, I'm Katherine Lewis.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
And I'm Josh Cook. And today's guest is really not
even a guest at all anymore. She's basically just a
co host at this point. It is the great and
wonderful Laurie cam Thank you Laurie for coming back.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thanks for having the episode. I'm I've been i to
talk about this for years on alohom Morris, so I'm
really excited about today.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Here we are. I am very excited to disagree with you.
Among a lot of things, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Excited to hand you the mic.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I'm excited to disagree with you and take it
on every on every point there.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
All right, So I know you've been on the pod before,
but do we want to do like the full intro,
like what's your house, what's your want?

Speaker 3 (01:27):
All the deal?

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Or do you just how you got into this? I
feel like we've probably done this before, but if you'd
love to introduce yourself again for any new listeners, Well,
let's we're jumping in at four fifty for some reason.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, we could, we could. We could do your your
house and then the projects that you have.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
LORI yes, so I am a raven Claw, although because
I write about Snape, people keep misticking me for a Slytherin,
as though you can't love a Slytherin unless you're also
a Slytherin. I wrote a book on Snape call Snape
The Definitive Analysis, and I am currently in book four

(02:06):
of a chapter reread podcast called Harry Potter After twenty twenty,
which is about how the series reads to us now,
chapter by chapter, in the era we're living in now.
And when I listened to episode one hundred and four,
which is the original recording of the chapter we're going

(02:29):
to discuss today, it really brought me back to the
years and years and years and years and years and
years that alilha More has only had Snape haters among
the hosts, which, on the one hand, everyone's reading is
what it is. On the other hand, if you can

(02:51):
only read Snape as having bad motives, that is extremely
inconvenient for understanding this chapter.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Just saying that's and that's why I'm here with you today.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Am I the only one playing the middle ground here?
I'm so happy you're here to talk about this. It's
such a cool theory that we've got ahead of us.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, it's really.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Because you, guys, I cheated. Spoiler warning. I read the
notes and they're good.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
They're real juicy.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Oh my goodness, I've been I've been trying to catch
up with Aloha Moore episodes because my life has been
a little busy. I've been working on another project. So
and also I've been catching up on episodes of Laurie's
podcast HP After twenty twenty altthomore. I've always been a
fan of Hbfter twenty twenty has given me a whole
new level to consider the books at. So I would

(03:42):
highly recommend that you guys jump in. If you like Alokhomra,
you're gonna love HB After twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, and it's brilliant. It is also I wanted to
I wanted to give Catherine the opportunity to give her
house and things too listeners. You know, Catherine is our
editor on the podcast right now, and she has she
has stepped in to be a host on this episode,
So Catherine, could you give us some mag because I
don't even know that that information. We're very happy.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
Yes, it's funny that Laurie said you don't have to
be a Slytherin to love a Slytherin. My husband is
one of Slytherin. And I'll just let you guys guess
what you think. I am that married a Slytherin.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Hufflepuff.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
I'm a huffle puffy. I'm like the plants in the background.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
It feels very old.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
Yes, and and all here too. Yeah, it's there. I'm obsessed.
But also I have on an herbology shirt. I'm very
plant obsessed. So I'm very much in my correct house.
But for a long time I said I was very
half in half, and I really am. It depends on
the day, but like a raven puff, super I enjoy
that side of things. But then on the days where

(04:54):
my brain is like super ADHD, I go more towards
the huffle puffy side because I like my project and
when my brand can't think of words and I don't
like the baby claw side of it, I like the
help up uppy. I just love it to.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
My wind.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
I actually had to look this up before I came,
just in case you guys did ask, because I ain't
got a clue. I don't know what my wand is. Shoot,
it's too Yeah, it's a fir wood. I don't know
what that means with a phoenix core. And it's thirteen
and a quarter inches long, which I think is pretty
long for a one right, yeah, long, yep, it's because awesome.

(05:31):
As a pliant flexibility, I I do go with the flow.
So I strongly reverberate with that.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
As editor of the show, I think that you have
to go with the flow of who we are.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
I could take a less out all that is, like
what's you want for dinner? You know whatever?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
I don't food.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
Thanks for asking something notable.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, yep. So very happy to have everyone here. Today's
chapter that we're going to be discussing is the Order
of the Phoenix, chapter twenty six, Seen and Unforeseen. As
Laurie had mentioned earlier, that is the original episode for
this chapter was one hundred and four back from October
twenty fourteen, with Kat, Michael, Caleb, and guest Zenia. So

(06:15):
go back and listen to that. Tell us how we're wronged.
We're not gonna change anything appreciate.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
It was naturally.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Oily, Naturally oily Matt.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
That was the name of this That's a challenge. We
have to come up with a name that's even better
than that.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
Oh, brouh uh. That's that's nasty, But you know who
isn't nasty?

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Cherry goes.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
This episode is sponsored by Cherry goes on. Go Share goe,
Go share Go. I feel like we should make a song,
but we won't. Alast moving on, Jeff, Jeff, make a song, Jeff,
come on our Patreon offers a lot of great perks,
including ad free episodes, monthly meetups with the hosts, and
so much more. Perk started just three dollars a month,

(07:02):
so head on over to patreon dot com slash alohomra
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the support of every single one of our listeners, however

(07:25):
you're able to do so, thank you.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I feel like I just got off of like a
Disney ride over warning.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Me keep that there's a movie called The Wild Robot
and you sound like the customer service voice from.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Oh yay, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
I do.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
I do want to watch that, but I I know
that I cry on every child's movie, so I know
I will cry because I've just seen the you know,
the short clips of the Oprah.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
We're all going to cry. Get in there, let's all
cry on.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
You.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Who else was also feeling like crying by the beginning
of this chapter Harry because he was in a low point,
all right? In this chapter. I'll give you guys the summary.

Speaker 4 (08:13):
Let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Three turns should do it?

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Chapter Revisit.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Drama Phoenix eight dun Umbridge eight dun Umbridge eight dun Umbridge.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
Chapter twenty six War War, War Scene and Unforeseen.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Choe refuses to talk to Harry after their fiasco of
a first date and Harry gets a crash course in
Romance one oh one from Hermione First Thing in the morning.
On the quidditch front, Genny performs admirably as a seeker,
but Gryffindor is demolished in their match against Hufflepuff. However,
their dour defeated attitude doesn't last long. Harry's interview is
published in the Quibbler, to the horror of the High

(09:03):
Inquisitor Umbradge and to the delight of the entire student body.
Harry's wonderful mood doesn't last long, of course. He's trapped
in a horrifying dream where he pierces through the eyes
of Lord Voldemort and gets an update on some of
his dastardly progress on how to get the weapon. During
his next occlumency lesson with Snape, he unsuccessfully tries to

(09:24):
hide these memories. After a tense exchange, Snape and Harry
are interrupted by the wailing of Professor Trelawney, who has
just been sacked. Thankfully, Dumbledore is a step ahead with
a replacement before Umbridge can beat him to it.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
All right, who's the replacement?

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Everyone?

Speaker 1 (09:39):
We'll find out.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
I do like the idea of a listener not knowing,
like who that revise, being.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Like I didn't read I'm gonna listen to this chapter
rear Reared podcast.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
They just they just found it, like they've only read
Sorcerer's Stone and that now they're just listening to the
random episode of war and now.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Oh my god. So but also, I will say a
lot of things happened in this chapter that I did
not remember being all scrunched into one chapter. Yeah, so
it's almost shocking.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
It's a massive chapter. It's like fifty minutes on the audiobook,
which is one of the longest. It's the one of
the longer ones in the in the series. It's not. Yeah,
I mean there may be. I don't think that there's
an hour long chapter. So, I mean we're in the
top percentage of chapter links there anyway. And but it's

(10:28):
a nice mix, you know. I Mean there's there's a
lot of big things that happen, obviously with Oxamency lesson
later and then the the Quibbler coming out, but then
like there's also some like normal Hogwarts stuff of like
sitting around the tree and like trying to figure out
what things are they are going on, So like instead
of talking about the chapter, let's talk about the chapter,

(10:48):
all right. Well, I like about the chapters that there
are a lot of different things that that are happening,
and it's a it's like an everyday kind of life
at Hogwarts verse, and these big moments that are happening
with the Quibbler coming out and the acquimancy lesson, but
like The chapter starts out with Harry sitting here kind

(11:09):
of going over in his head and doing a recap
of the interview for The Quibbler and just like why
he did it and that kind of stuff. But like,
my first thought is like, this doesn't seem like the
first edition of The Quibbler that's come out since the interview,
and Luna is like trying to explain to Harry, like, oh,
it didn't come out because of this, but you know

(11:30):
it's forking to then why is this not a priority
for xenophilias. I don't really understand, like this is this
is the story of the century, And he's just like,
I gotta talk about these Yeah, Crumpel horn storekacts.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
That's kind of what I love about it. It's it's
kind of like a love hate relationship, right, It's like
his priorities are gonna be wildly different, right.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, And I guess some of it could also come
down to just the fact that he's like, well, yes, Harry,
this is important talking about how the government is suppressing
this information and death eaters have escaped, and death eaters
are you know, out and about in the in the
normal world. But also there is this animal that may
may not exist, and I think that the public needs

(12:14):
to know about that as well so much. But I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I'm very helpful that he gives us that recap at
the front end, just in case we're reading it chapter
by chapter. Didn't before, Like, thanks, Harry, Thanks, you're a
real one.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, thanks for letting me, Thanks for letting me know
what I'm jumping into here. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Uh, solid guy.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
There, there's there's there's also just some lines there that
are very dryffindori that as a dryffindor I really appreciate Harry.
You know, it's kind of like the actions that are
happening out in the world give him like this burning
desire to do something, and it's doing something is just
this interview. Then that's that's worth doing, you know, getting that,

(12:56):
getting that out. But you know, I just I'll love
being in Harry's head for this because it's talking about
I'm glad that I did this. But it also may
confirm that people think that I'm insane, because they already
do anyway. So I don't know, I just like you, Yep.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Absolutely, it's like that one brutal reality that he's already
been going through like the worst year he's ever had,
so it's just funneling into it. Will they hate me more?

Speaker 4 (13:23):
Yeah, exactly that. Which when you do something that's not
the status quo, then you know you you're gonna get
accused of that anyway, because it's different from what people
are used to, especially after all those years.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
I know that my next comment doesn't really go with
what we were just talking about, but I think it's
interesting that George says, if Zacharias Smith beats us, so
this is in reference to their quidditch practice that they've
been having, then they've been murdered, massacred. If Zacharias Smith
beats us, I might have to kill myself. And then

(14:00):
Fred says kill him more like firmly, So why did
that matter? Like why was that included? There were quite
a few things in this chapter that I was like,
why was this included? Like why does this matter?

Speaker 1 (14:12):
The author? To me?

Speaker 4 (14:14):
Like there's so much brilliant writing. This is not a mistake.
It's not a throwaway comment. So why why was this
firmly kill him more like like not kill yourself? Like
why was that added?

Speaker 1 (14:26):
I don't know, I have my opinions on the Weasley twins.
Everyone knows.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, yeah, so I think there's just showing some like
normal life at with a school of a bunch of teenagers,
and the Weasleys are at least the Weasley twins are
immature and don't think about the words that they say
or care about a lot of other people around them

(14:51):
in general. But yeah, I think this is more of
just like they're not on the team anymore, they've been banned,
they're getting ready for this Hufflepuff quidditch match coming up,
and so like they're just discussing what could happen, and
they don't already don't like zach Ry Smith because he's
a pompous kind of idiot. But then it's just like,

(15:12):
I don't know what I view it as like one
of the twins looking at the other one and just
being like, why would you kill yourself? Like just kill him,
and then like we we're all good, like, well why not?
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
It's just it was written fun, okay, as just like
a an aside of yeah, a normal teenager conversation, not
like I I think, not like one of them.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Later, I think Fred's out of the twins. The twins
both need probably some kind of therapy, but out of
the two of them, I think Fred needs it more
than anyone. Yeah, I think Fred could because.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
I didn't name.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
I feel like if he if we could have seen him.
It's really a tragedy that he does pass. But like
it's like if we could have seen him grow a
little bit older, he might have faced down these kind
of like this kind of knee jerk reaction to get
violent or get even or get like really mean very quickly.
I don't know why it's always specifically Fred too, Like

(16:18):
it's very rarely George, who's like threatening violence. So I
feel like whenever we've got like the Quippi fun times
with the twins, it's like ooh ha ha ho ho,
it's also fun, but they are like literally bullies and
everybody knows my opinion on them. I feel like Fred
shows that way more than George does.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
Though cool, that's good points.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah he does. Yeah, I mean that is that doesn't
leaves like show the difference in them, Like too many
times they get lumped into just being the same person
over and over again, like what they what I mean,
even in Goblet of Fire whenever they're talking about blackmail
and Luna bagman. It's Fred that's ready to go. George
is the one that's kind of pulling back.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, lor I don't know if you have any like
they get me Marauders energy a little bit like the
mean part of the Marauders energy and Laurie. I don't
know if you have any opinion on.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
This one that hangs your poor snape upside down and
makes everything fall out of his pants.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
They read bully to me.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
Personally, I am in the minority. I don't like them,
I don't trust them, and I don't feel.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Safe for me, thank you. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
They are tricksters, and the thing about being a trickster
is that if you're always safe, you're not exactly a trickster.
Tricksters they are delightful, they disrupt things, but they do
cross the line sometimes. And the thing that freaks me
out is that they almost killed a Slytherin and they
don't care.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh god, I remember talking about this.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
I am not of that, and Hermione is really disturbed
about that, you know. And it's presented not as that
it's right or wrong to be who they are, just
that this is who they are they do do this
and they don't care. And if the Slytherins had shoved

(18:04):
a gryffin door into a vanishing cabinet and then those
terrifying days went by where the person was in it
and in between state, uh, then I don't think the
gryffin doors would be okay with it broken vanishing cabinet. Yeah.
So yeah, I find I find the Weekly Twins really frightening.

(18:29):
And I know that Hermione always has kind of a
jumpy reaction to them, and I'm I'm with her, and
I think that's just a temperament thing, maybe because uh,
it sure seems like the majority think that the Twins
are delightful.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
It's the comedy. If you could be a delightful psychopath,
there's not an issue.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
My husband used to be a prankster and when he
married me that stopped quickly, and I hated to be
that person, but like it would be like the kind
where I'd be alone in the house and then he
would be like that and I'm like, oh no, we
ain't doing that, baby, No, no no. And like the
couples that like do the balloon and then the pop

(19:08):
thing afterwards, and like they know it's like a balloon
full of like water and shaving cream and stuff. They
walk into the room and they shoot like a nerf
at the top and it explodes on the top of them,
and then they have like one of those surprise popper things.
They do it afterwards, and then apparently it's all in
fun games and they help each other clean up and stuff.

(19:28):
But like, that's not funny or fun to me personally.
That was scared the literal dude out of me. And
it would be a bigger cleanup than it would be
if it was just if it was just a balloon.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Oh yeah, if someone did that to me, there would
be words. Oh yeah, tout that camera because there would
be some strong words though.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that my husband would
think was funny. And I was like, well, not with me,
and I ain't funny with baby, and you do that
with your friends, Bud. Yeah, yeah, he didn't really do
that anymore. But that, to me, that is not a
like Laurie said, that's not a trustworthy quality to have

(20:13):
in a spouse, Like to think that they're thinking of
ways to scare you or thinking of ways to like
disarm you, or something that's not cute. That ain't cute.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
I'm with you on that. That's just me speaking of
bad relationships. This Harry and Show thing. Yeah, the recap.
I love the fact that Hermione walked him through like
what he did quote unquote wrong like a child.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
What almost like almost like a fifteen year old boy.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
It's like and on one hand, it's like very grounding.
It's like, oh, I feel like this has happened before.
I feel like this is this is a very realistic
conversation that someone might have over how to handship and
the differences between that. I go into this thing because
I I am Ace. I went through high school Ace

(21:05):
not knowing it. Like these conversations did not, Like I
never understood the entire dynamic of like how different people
think like girls think like this, boys think like this.
Blah blah blah blah blah. That never quite landed with me.
An entire conversation like this wouldn't land with me. And
that's like I feel like high school was more difficult

(21:27):
for me because of that, Like everyone was having a
hormonal reaction to being with one another and finding themselves.
I meanwhile, I didn't have any of that reaction. So
all of this was very confusing to me at the time.
So I get where Harry's coming He's also having a
hormonal reaction, But I get where Harry's coming from not
understanding why any of that happened.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean a lot of the a lot
of the issue that happened with Harry and Chow on
the date. At least it's really summed up in like Harry,
Harry's mentioned and like all these things that like, well,
why didn't she do this? If that's how she was feeling,
why didn't she ask these questions and her mind? He says, Well,
girls don't often ask questions like that, and like they don't.

(22:11):
I saw I sorry, listeners, but I saw a meme
the other day that was like when she gives you
this look, and it was just like it was just
like a woman's eyes going like like looking like whatever,
it's just a woman's eyes. And it was like one,
am I supposed to pick up from that? You know
what I mean? So like I listen the Boys fifteen
shows fifteen and like can't explain how she wants a

(22:35):
relationship to go. Harry is clueless and tactless, and you know,
especially when you're on IF. While he was on the day,
he mentioned his best friend that is also a girl
that had just recently got her teeth fixed in the
last book or so magically debut.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Yes, so she told them, how ugly you think I am?
But I don't think you're ugly, that's beside the point. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
So, I mean it's it's just engrace with I hope
you don't take a fit. This is like a typical
teenage like interaction that's happening here, and just like no
one understands what the other one.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
It makes sense. It makes sense because it didn't make
sense to me as I write it again as an adult,
I was like, well, this thing isn't made for me.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
That's fine, Yeah, that particular brand.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
I'm glad I got married at twenty four. I don't
have to deal with this anymore.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
Amen, for sure.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
So so Hermione goes on after the romance lesson that
she gives and she was talking about quidditch and I
love this note that you guys brought up full disclosure listeners.
I was busy with this other project. I'm working on
the Voldemort book right now. I didn't I'm the lazy one.
I did not include any notes anything brilliant that you

(23:56):
guys hear. That's all them. I'm here on purely vibes.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Okay, bobs are good though.

Speaker 4 (24:03):
Vib Yeah, there we go.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Bring in the good vibes and also a twenty ounce
of wah wah coffee. That's what I'm here with. Okay,
this is a brilliant note and I'd love to go
into this.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah. So so, yeah, we're setting around, we're setting around
the breakfast table and things like that. The greffindorl quiddage
team comes in and it's just it's just discussion of
like how the team's going, how practice is going, and
and and some discussion on that. And then Catherine, you
had brought up some some good questions. I think Hermione
is asking thank you.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
I mean, is she wrong when she says that quidditch
creates bad feelings and tension between the houses, Like, I
don't think she's wrong. I think it adds an extra
layer of competition that's not necessary. It creates division in
the school. It would be like one thing if they
were playing like what do they call it, like the
practice squad, when like the house is playing again like

(24:56):
your your team's playing against your team, and then like
that'd be one thing if they were practicing for other schools,
but like house versus house, like in house, that's to
me is wrong.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
It makes a lot more sense for them to go
against other schools than it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, maybe yeah
for practice squads, for bringing up a team.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
Itself like that, it'd be like your high school playing
against your high school. But like for bragging rights not and.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Also constantly it's like all.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
The constantly yeah, and that's all you're doing is preparing.
And can you even have friends that are in opposite houses,
that are on opposite quidditch teams as you, because you
can't share your secrets with them. You can't, I would think,
like you wouldn't want to show them your new moves
or anything because you're about to play against them and
if they use your move against you, they're not your

(25:46):
print anymore. And like that, just like it's huge, like
we already have house points, now we have quidditch. We
already have like the preconceptions of each house of you know,
Slytherins are bad and the whatever is what? Oh apparently
I can use hand gestures on there we're not gonna
do that. It popped up and everybody froze. I'm sorry,

(26:07):
but we have the you know that Slytherins are bad
and mean and evil, and then we've got that Gryffindors
are hot hit. I'm sorry, you'all already know all this.
You know, we've already got all these preconceptions, and then
you're adding in unnecessary on top of it. Yeah, house points,
and like, what the heck?

Speaker 2 (26:26):
That's where I think Hermione's missing the point though, Like,
it's not quiddage that brings the bad feelings. It may
bring more bad feelings, but like the way that Hogwarts is,
the way that Hogwarts is set up is already house
against house. So so let's say you just did house
points and you took quiddage out, the houses are still
going up against each other four points, so.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
Like yeah, but like I feel like that's more it's
more equal because most of it is on academics and
academics yep, and which we see later that you know
they get. The teachers can just add whenever they want
to if they're wanting to show the secret support, which
we'll talk about later, but they can do whenever they
want to, you know, like yeah, if a if sprout

(27:12):
sees that, you know, Gryffindor is getting better. Oh he
passed me the water and can five points a hulf
a buff you know, like they can if they want to.
So yeah, and I think kids can do extra credit
for that too. So I know that's probably more for
the raven claus to want to do extra credit and
stuff like that. But then like you got people like
me who would be in the herbology room all the
time being like, what can I do to help you

(27:34):
with this plant? What can I do for this plan?
Let's make postion ingredients, Let's do this, Like I would
be looking for different ways to get extra credit too.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, I think that the I think the quotea is
just it. It does exacerbate a problem that is already there.
I just I don't know it. It's really I think
that if it were just quotag and you didn't have
the house stuff there, like you can have separate teams
and then like you may end up in the same issue,
you know what I mean, instead of having the quidditch

(28:02):
team the whatever, hey form your own team almost do
it like inter murals of like form your own team.
With whoever you want, and then that's who you go
up against all your long But I don't know. I
like the system as it is in place. I like
the I like the team as far as like fighting
other schools or like are you playing against other schools?

(28:25):
We see other schools in one book of the entire.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
But like it should make sense, right, yeah, they should.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
It should be with the with the universe and and
and the canonical information that we have. I think that
this does make sense. I just think that it's childish,
but it's not a fifteen year old childish thing. Like
the most mature statement said throughout this entire conversation is
her mindy saying that her happiness doesn't depend on Ron's

(28:56):
goalkeeping skills, and like I love that so much. Like
I am in West Virginia, everyone the Westernia University Mountaineers
football team, all the stuff. I have friends. I am
thirty four years old. I have friends that their weekend
is ruined if they lose a football game.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
I know, I get it.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Wow, so you know Alabama and Auburn, right.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah, so like it. It's that it's that kind of
stuff that like it's so much. It doesn't it's just immaturity,
you know, like I just I love I love that
statement because it took me a long time to get there,
Like I was in I was in my mid twenties
before I was like, oh, I'm putting my like my
mood is based on eighteen to twenty one year old kids. No,

(29:41):
I'm not doing that anymore. That's creepy.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
So yeah, that much.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, I know it's a deeper issue. I know, Laurie,
I know that you have some opinions about like the
house preferences, and I feel like this is just kind
of at the root, well not at the root, but
at one of the different roots that go into these
housing preferences kind of issues. Because we know that Snape
shows preferential treatment towards Slytherins, but he's like literally the

(30:09):
only one that does.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
That's true. Well, the yeah, the differences in the house
is because you sort according to personality. There is some
more tribal feeling with the Slytherins, and because they tend
to be more pure blood, they come in there already
knowing that they're in the crosshairs of this conflict that's

(30:34):
been going on in this society for a while, and
that They're going to school with the children of people
where their families might have been fighting with these other
students' families, so that tension is already there between the houses.
And I'm not sure that what Hermione's pointing out can
be avoided because competitive testosterone, aggression, hostility, the feelings, those

(31:01):
are natural, those are part of life, and not competing
is also an imbalanced way of living.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
True, true, I.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Don't know, it's I mean, what what I've heard, I
am so the opposite of a job. But what I've
heard from people who do sports is that it helps
train you to become familiar with those feelings and know
how to handle them, Like, okay, I'll say it.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
For though, I'm so with Hermione on this where I'm like,
I've never had my feelings hinged on a team and
full disclosure listeners, I live in a city where where
we famously get very upset if our team loses. So
it's just like if you can get it, look or
it's just I've never quite understood that entire mania that

(31:51):
an entire city will go through, and it really does
read just a little bit immaturity. But also I'm looking
at it from the outside because I've never been tied
to sports, so I think that there there's a lot
of spirit and there's a lot like there's a lot
tied to something like that. So I think that I
see where you're coming from. Where I my personal opinion,
and this is a little bit out of left field.

(32:11):
I feel like they should just resort every year just
to see if there are any changes, if anyone's changed
their mind. If they resort every year, yeah, there's going
to be a lot of people that just go with
the same one. But if you have a change of heart,
maybe you go somewhere else, you make some new friends
in another house. I feel like there's shoaning to be
any issue with resorting every single year every student, just
to have them make that decision.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
So and they have magic is fun, so if your
robes don't match, you can just use magic. Oh my gosh,
I love that. I've never thought about that.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Madam Madame Malcolms will go out of business.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Live oh true, Yeah, I like.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Her, yeah, Grace. So I mean, just on that point,
I was I like the idea of I don't like
the idea of Thornton first year, you know, like you're
I think I think Thornton every year may be too much.
But like, but honestly, I'm sitting here. As soon as
you said it, I was like, oh, why would you
do that? And I was like, well, why who cares?
If you want to do it, do it? You know

(33:07):
what I mean? Like yeah, yeah, So, I mean anybody
else about the houses and things like that. The last
thing that I've got is, while I do think that
it may be it may be a negative for inner
house relationships, I do think that what the way that

(33:29):
they do quiddage is very positive for the houses themselves.
The people that are in your dormitory, that are in
your common room, that going up against the separate houses
are is good for building those relationships.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
Super agreed, that's true.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, Or you could just do it where like everybody
is against leather and so it's really good for three houses.

Speaker 5 (33:50):
Really since passing guys, I don't know to tell you,
we know who put it quits is very good for Jenny.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Jenny's amazing at.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
It, yep.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
And we find out how she got amazing at it,
and it's because she refused to be ignored growing up
in a house of all these boys that are good
at quiddage or you know, I mean, we know that
that Bill was good. Charlie. Charlie played. We don't know
if he was like excellent or anything, but we know
that Bill was good. I'm pretty sure whatever is it?

Speaker 1 (34:26):
One of them was captain right, yeah, Charlie.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Charlie children Percy doesn't play, but then friend George do
Ron ends up playing, and nobody was ever like, hey, Jenny,
do you want to do? You want to play here?
Like in the world she has to go steal the
brooms out of the broom cover like whatever.

Speaker 4 (34:46):
I totally forgot about that, and I love that her mind.
He is just kind of was like, you know, since
you didn't ask, she did it herself. I was like,
dang bro Yeah, okay, call him out. You should call
him out more than that. Okay, let's make a scene.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Hell.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
And it's such a that both of those things are
such a Hermione and Jenny move of like Hermione being like, hey,
how are you also dense that you would never even
invite her to play? And to Jenny's just like, I
want to play, so I'm gonna go do it like
s true you guys, I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Not knowing friendship, which is very nice. It's nice to
see something growing in the direction.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, and there's only one way for Hermione to know that,
and it's for them to have had a relationship and
talked about it. Yeah, you know over the summer at
the at the at Grandmold Place or wherever the times
at the borough and that. So yeah, Hermione has found
out about this because she's building that that relationship.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
I can imagine them hanging out and Hermione like sitting
in their orchard just reading or researching or something, and
then Jenny doing that and then Hermione like ing Guardium
leviosa and throwing you know, balls and bloodgers and all
that out I mean pace though right, Oh, I didn't
think about that, sorry man.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
So it's very sweet though, and still as possible, just
not probably this year.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
It never happened. I'm sorry, But I do.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
I do think that that is one friendship that we
as a fandom and as a podcast don't talk about
very much because like we get these little hints of like, oh,
they have a real friendship and relationship because we know that,
we know that Hermione has given Jenny advice on like, hey,
be yourself around Harry and hell big, he'll notice you
and that works, you know what I mean? So like

(36:33):
she's not telling her that if they're not friends or
they don't feel you know, yeah, the only other, the
only other thing. I wanted to talk on this before
we head on and listeners to Johnny Long, I just
hope that you're cool with that. Charge your arapods now
if you're ready, But.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
If you're commuting to work, will be here while yeah,
we'll be here when you commute home.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, Jenny and Harry are talking about about quiddage in general,
and and Harry mentioned something about he'll never be able
to play quiddage again, and and Genny's Jenny's sounds a
lot like McGonagall when she says, you're only banned as
long as Umbradge is at the school, and then you
can you can put that right up against McGonagall later

(37:18):
saying to Umbradge or yeah, later saying to Umbradge that
Dumbledore's only only gone as long as Fudge's minister. And
I just I love that. I love that these two strong,
smart women are mirroring each other and how they're fighting
against this one terrible human being.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
It's it's crazy because we get in this chapter all
these people thinking on a separate level like Hermione is
thinking on another level, saying that her happiness is not
tied to the outcome of a quidditch game. That's another
level of maturity. We get another level of maturity with
with Jenny thinking that these are bad times, but these
bad times don't last forever because she can't last forever.
So once she's out of here, you're.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
Good, Gucci Gimbchee by its.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
When you're caught in the worst times, you can't see
stuff like that. You really need people around you that
are able to see past it.

Speaker 4 (38:07):
Agreed, speaking of bad times, you know when you have
a cold bad times, I just I just put I
don't know, that's dumb. I put in here that uh,
summer bee has a cold and sneezed. You know, Genny's
telling about Oh well, he's because Harry says that she

(38:28):
did a good job grabbing the snitch and she's a
summer bee has a cold. He sneezed. It was just
the right timing or whatever. And I was a teacher
for ten years and anytime you ever send a kid
to the nurse's office, they just get like an ice
pack and they're like, hey, be a right, just have
a good day, you know, do you wanna do you

(38:48):
wanna sit down for a second. Here's an ice pack,
you know, and all right, well, all right, send you
back to class.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
You have a fever.

Speaker 4 (38:54):
Oh well, we'll.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
Call your moms.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
Here's a nice pack. Go back to class, like and
you have to wait. And and sometimes if there's too
many kids in the nurse's office, they go back to
class with all the other kids with their ninety eight
degree ninety nine degree fever. Oh god, do we think
that she gives out ice packs or and here's a

(39:18):
nice pack. Go, yeah, yeah, go back to class. But like,
he's playing quidditch, and Josh, I see that. You say
that Madame Pomfrey gives them pepper up potions, but obviously
he hasn't had one. Why is he still allowed to
go out to play quidditch if he's infecting all these people.
He probably sneezed on the snitch and then Genny caught it,

(39:39):
and then Jenny, Jenny gets a cold in the next
you know, a week or so, and it's from him
playing freaking summer bee man playing with a cold, like go.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
To man'll take care of that real quick.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
And he's not just gonna like give him a talk
of to like he's gonna give him a talk.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
He's gonna kill him.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
He's never gonna have a cold again.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Never. He'll just be cold. He will just be cold.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
And zero to sixty real quick, real quick. You don't
deserve to.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
Breathe our air.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
You've painted the air. When they're cold, you're gonna die.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
Oh my god. But yeah, I mean, I like, I
would love to think that Madame Pomfrey is a little
bit more attentive because I just I complete bias here.
I just like her. But maybe there is like the
magical equivalent of a pat on the back and a
tile and all.

Speaker 4 (40:35):
Yeah and being like you be I yeah, like and
I don't know. And as a teacher, like with them
just saying the Slytherin's making fun of heron like Weasley
is our king ha ha. Like as a teacher, you
have obvious bullying, like they'd all be written up. There's
no ifans are buds about it. You're bully get ridden

(40:58):
that period.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
It's documented wild that they get away with so much
of that, you know, like in I'm not even talking
just to Slarians, like in general, I believe, Yeah, I agreed.

Speaker 4 (41:07):
It's so much and like, but this is specifically in
front of a teacher, and we know more than once
and filtered it and filter was the only one that
banned it. But like, it's a freaking magical school. It's
a magical school and fantastic beasts and where to find them.
I don't remember which one it was McGonagall. We do
the flashback or whatever of them being in school. McGonagall

(41:28):
takes that girl's mouth away, like her mouth doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Could it's the second one?

Speaker 4 (41:35):
Could we not do this? Cast Salencio, like shut your mouth?
Why what you was talking about? Boom, there you go.
You ain't got a mouth? Like there are nothing we
can do?

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Well they they didn't. They say during the Goblet of
Fire that like, casting magic on students is strictly prohibited
because of the whole Mattie Moody the ferret thing.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Yeah, yeah, well thefore this that happened before this, Yeah,
I think.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
I think, I think mcg says that using magic as
a punishment, is it not.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
She did it?

Speaker 4 (42:10):
Maybe she learned her lessons, she matured like.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
All these that's a that's that's an alternate universe.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
I consider it cannon. I mean, like okay, but like Sialencio,
even that, like over time, it says that it wears
off and that they could speak again. I think that's
a fair punishment for a student who's bullying. Maybe not
completely taken their mouth away, but like you don't speak
until you've learned at least a little bit of a lesson.
We're gonna do something about this.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
I mean, I don't God, how would you even handle
something like this. You would know better than I would,
because you've actually taught children. So I feel like my
answer is to panic.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
And a lot of times, like the immediate, like the
phone call to the parents, sometimes that nips it in
the book immediately because it's like my child. You say
that your child was exhibiting like bullying behavior, and that
was like bullying this specific student. A lot of parents
freak at the word of bully associated with their child,

(43:16):
and it's like they take care of it for you.
But you're talking about in this particular case, you're talking
about Slytherins whose parents taught them to be that bully,
and they taught them that. You know, these people are
lesser than their you know whatever. And even though Ron
is a pure blood, he is poor and that's something

(43:38):
to bully. So you know, like they've taught them this
from home. So what good would it do to give
the phone call of your child's bullying?

Speaker 2 (43:46):
Well?

Speaker 4 (43:46):
Good, what else did he do?

Speaker 1 (43:48):
You know, that's realistic because the world is like I
feel like the world is like that. Sometimes some parents
are going to teach that kind of behavior.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
And they do. And as a teacher you get to know,
like which one you can call and be like, look,
this little jerk was being a tird today, Like I
need you to take care of this at home, and
they'll be like, I'm on it. He's not gonna have
that iPad for two weeks, you know. And then you've
got the other ones that are like and and what
do you want me to do about it? You're the
one at school. He's doing at school, you take care

(44:18):
of it, And it's like, all right, well that was
years last.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
I am having an eye opening experience as to how
some parents.

Speaker 6 (44:25):
No I'm sorry, okay, no, no, no, don'ty of it,
because this is I need to know this stuff I got,
and I've got it to me to take care of
almost two and.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
We're reaching the terrible two phase. It's just it's just
toddler's it's just toddlers. Yeah, I got to keep it
in mind. You know that's good?

Speaker 4 (44:46):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
I want to bring up one thing that's really annoying
to me in this chapter they talked. They mentioned twice
about Ron giving up fourteen goals. A quidda's goal is
worth ten pole, it's fourteen times ten, it's one hundred
and forty. They said that the Hufflepuff team scored two
hundred and forty points. Where are the other goals at?

(45:10):
And why aren't we talking about them?

Speaker 4 (45:12):
Maybe they pulled her on out.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
They don't have backups. They famously well, they've actually end
up with backups eventually, or like pull but not during
the match. I wish, Catherine, maybe they pulled him out
to go do something else, like, hey, you're so bad
at this, just just go try to find the snitch
if it just falls into your mouth like it did Harry, don't.
I'm not looking for an answer on this, Ron, I'm

(45:34):
not looking for an answer. I'm just letting everyone know.
How annoying that it is to me twice.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
I just feel bad for period.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Oh I thought you felt bad for me because I
was annoyed with it.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
I feel bad for you too, for you wish I
could you notice something?

Speaker 1 (45:50):
I definitely did not.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
I didn't either, girl. No, I'll be like, I don't know.
They pulled him out, idp Roster.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Need you math? Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2 (46:01):
I think well, And I think that's the author's issue,
is that she's.

Speaker 4 (46:04):
Like the only math that it is plant math, and
if you can propagate it, it doesn't count. Sorry, it's stupid.
That's cool. Okay, that's cool.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
We're done.

Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yes, all right, we were in.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
The past.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
Four Yeah, I guess we have to go back to
the past. Josh. Sorry, where Lourie was talking about people
disliking Snape.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
The thing about disliking Snape is if you're really invested
in thinking that he has only bad intentions in the
Acquamancy lessons, I don't know how you can make sense
of this chapter. There are things he does in this
chapter that I think can't be understood unless you allow
for the possibility that he is doing some of it

(47:00):
in good faith or at least you know, with an
agenda that aligns with Dumbledore's and against against Boldemort. And
I know that, for example, there's a fandom theory that
is quite loved where people think that Snape is setting
Harry up on purpose to never be able to learn
acclemency for some reason. And that's a reading that is

(47:22):
really hard to sustain in this chapter, I find because
there are just things he does in this chapter as
we go through it that we'll see they wouldn't make
sense if that's what he was motivated by. Anyway, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Even know that was a fan theory, Like, I didn't
know that people were talking about that. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Well, also, as you can imagine, if you have done,
if you've made any sort of pro Snape argument, you
become a magnet for everybody's most anti Snape watching. So
I've heard it all.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
Yeah, oh god, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Yeah. I really do think to come. I really do
think that it is unfair for every reader or host
or whatever to come at Snape and not believe that
he has any positive motive in what he's doing, because
at the end of the day, like he could have
just said no, he's doing this for a reason.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
And that's that's he Yeah, that's the joy of this chapter.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
I don't think I don't it's right. I don't think
Dumbledore would have forced Snape to do it. I think
that they had good reason to do it, and Snape
understood why, or at least understood it was a good
idea to do. Okay, we'll see.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
I don't know if any of them. It's not that
it was ever a good idea. It's just that every
other idea was worse, and every other option was worse.
Because that's the thing about what they're going through in
the war at this time. They don't have any good options.
They're very desperate, they're losing the war. They don't know
what they're doing. Baltimort also doesn't know what he's doing,
but he's a little bit he's ahead right now, and

(48:58):
there's kind of throwing ever they can at this to
see what they can do. But they don't actually understand
the nature of the connection between Baltimore and Harry. They've
never seen anything like it before.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, what I get what I'm what I had meant
by being a good idea, It really just rests on
the fact of like, with the information that they have,
they don't have a lot of things that they can do,
So let's try this because it's the acculements, the legitimates.
It is the closest thing to what's happening. I personally
don't think that this was ever going to stop the

(49:32):
connection between Voldemort and Harry. I don't think that he
could have been a tremendously good Acklamans and still had
this connection because it's a horror corrects and soul connection
and not mind to mind.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
I don't agree.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
I knew that while I was talking don't worry, but
I lost my thought. Oh shoot, do.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
We just want to hop in? Like I know that
we've got more.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah, Like we can just go through the chapter?

Speaker 1 (50:03):
And I love no, no, no, I think I love
the idea of going through the equivalent. But we're like,
we're in stride right now. Do we want to talk
about the lesson?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
It's all of me. You're running the show. Let's do
it me.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Oh, I'm running nothing, sir.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Well.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
Where we are in the chapter right after uh they
talk about the quidditch game, is Harry knows that he
has the acclimancy lesson coming up with Snape, and he
knows that he has the assignment all the time to
empty his mind before he goes to sleep, because he's
more vulnerable than and he can't do it. He can't

(50:38):
do it because thinking about Umbridge makes him too angry,
so he's even having more emotion than usual, and then
remembering Snape telling him that he has empty his mind
makes him mad at Snape too, so he really needs
some help. And that puts this bright spotlight on the
central mystery of the UK see Lessons, which I think

(51:01):
it's so brilliant that it's not named, but it is
the spotlight. Why is Snape never giving Harry the instructions?
He gives this very clear directive, you have to empty
your mind, and he never says how, and Harry even
asks him at one point, you tell me to do this,
but you're not telling me how, and we never get
the answer to that. And that mystery is really important,

(51:23):
you know, because it turns out Snape he can't say
it because Valdemort is in Harry's head. Baltimore is spying
on Snape through Harry's eyes, and Snape is, along with Dumbledore,
the only person that has ever successfully occluded Valdemort that
they know of and he cannot let Baltimore know how

(51:47):
he's doing it.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
I love this theory that you have. I think it's
really cool and really interesting, very multifaceted. It actually helped
to like open my eyes about these scenes a little
bit more.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
I Oh, where was I going with this?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I was under the impression like I don't know if
you guys sometimes will do this. I like to do
a little bit of meditation to get myself to calm
down before I go to sleep sometimes if my mind
is like really going like crazy, and when I do
these meditations, I'll usually do like a guide to one
off a YouTube. It's a very cringe, it's very fun
for me. But usually they give the instruction to empty
your mind, which is like the same thing that Snape

(52:22):
is telling Harry right now, but they never include more
instructions as to how to do that. Typically it's just
like empty your mind. Just go ahead, let those thoughts
run out, so that all of those instructions that is
no help. Typically when people do meditation, you kind of
just have to go with the flow. And my impression

(52:43):
of that instruction of empty your mind was the same
thing of like if you don't get what I'm talking about.
You ain't never gonna get what I'm talking about. Okay.
If you got it, you got it. If you don't,
you're screwed. So I understand where you're coming from when
you say, like Snape never explain it. I assumed that
there was. Oh, there is that you just basically have.

(53:04):
If you're going to empty your mind, you gotta empty
your mind.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Now, what we have to look at the difference between
what Snape tells Harry and what he does, because there
are there's an instance that we've already seen in which
Harry is successful at blocking Snape, and that's in the
first lesson when he thought about Choe and he says,
you're not looking at that memory. That's private, and then
he succeeds in throwing off Snape, and Snape there that

(53:30):
Harry did a thing, and that is not empty in
your mind. That's thinking about who you want to protect
and that strength of that love and protect if this
becomes greater than the temptation to submit to Voldemort, you know,
picking out your curiosity, and that's something that Snape can't

(53:50):
say directly while Baltimore is spying on him and we'll
see later on this chapter that something similar happens again.
He cannot say out leud what he does because he
Snape knows how to incclude Baltimore. But if Harry looks
at Snape and Valdemort looks through Harry's eyes, then Valdemort

(54:11):
will be able to see through Harry thinks about Snape
that Baltemort himself can't see.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Yeah, yeah, I'm on board with that. Well you can, Grace,
I'll change my mind. I'd like to just do like,
go through the chapter as it's as it happens Tom Lawnish,
and then get to that as the end. I think
that go on all this stuff and then coming back
to the quibbler. I think it's going to be difficult,
So all right, let's do that. Okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
So I do have to say, and I'll actually get
into this more, but I have a bit of a
different theory as to what Tom might have been thinking.
But I also like, I feel like your theory about
this enriches the reading a great deal, and I love
thinking about it this way. So I don't know, I
kind of love both. You know, there's no set on this.

(54:58):
I think that we can just sort of like abble
and whatever. We want to think about what's going on
behind here, which I love.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Yeah, so Harry does finally get to go to sleep.
It says that ron snores are finally Ron should really
be like studying for sleep apnea. Probably he probably the
boy probably needs a seapap machine for sure. But Harry,
like like most of most of his evenings like this
go he's he has a normal dream or like you know,

(55:25):
normal like funny dream at least, so Catherine, I know
that you've what you got?

Speaker 4 (55:31):
Well, you know, he dreams about McGonagall playing the bagpipes
and Neville and who is it Madam Sprout or Madame Pomfrey,
one of them dancing anyway, they were dancing on the floor. Yeah, yeah,
I should have remembered, Sorry, but she was playing the bagpipes.
But it reminded me of a few episodes ago when

(55:52):
Jeff Jeff mentioned that, well in the episode McGonagall had
like a purple megaphone at a quidditch match and John,
now I'm saying Josh instead of Jeff from the other
way around. Jeff pointed out, yes you were, Yes you were.
Jeff pointed out that McGonagall is often a sign of

(56:14):
unintentional humor, and it was like, I never thought of
it that way. But like, so, since Harry dreamed this,
does that mean like he sees that too, Or is
it because she's Scottish and she has Scottish bagpipes? Like
is that the correlation? Or or is the author putting

(56:36):
in another unintentionally humorous situation for us to see McGonagall
in thoughts.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
I feel like mcgonagall's character leans in so hard to
doing something like just putting her in a ridiculous situation
just to get a laugh is very fun, especially for readers.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
I feel like, yeah, I think it's to show that
this dream is so far fetched, it's really far away
from what we're getting ready to delve into, you know.

Speaker 4 (57:01):
Oh yeah, oh a dark contrast.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
I like that, mm hmm. Yeah. So the dream, the
dream shifts and now Harry is viewing things from in
a dark corridor. So, Laurie, I know you had you
had a thought on the line that he had the
strangest feeling that this time he's going to get lucky
at last and find the way to open the door.

(57:25):
Being in there.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
That was that made me think, Wow, Baltimore's getting better
at this because this strangest feeling Harry has that's not
coming from himself. This is happening. Baltimore has just learned
because of Harry seeing nic Guinea attacking Arthur Weasley. Baltimore
has just learned that they're sharing visions and that he

(57:50):
can maybe plant thoughts and feelings in Harry. So he's
he's starting. You know, he later on gets better at it,
but this is, you know, just the beginnings of him starting.
And that's Harry, you know, in his sleep having this
strange feeling. You know, Voldemort wants to get him more
and more curious because he wants to push him toward this.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
Door, and he thinks that Harry's gonna somehow know how
to open the door, be the key to opening the door. Like,
what does it in this dream? Like? What does snape?
I obviously haven't read this book in a while. What
does the dream with Voldemort going through his mind like, Oh,
I'm going to open it. I'm going to open it.

(58:32):
If Harry were to get it open, what does that
do for Voldemort? Can you remind me?

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Baltimore needs Harry to get at the prophecy, and he
wants to get Harry knowledgeable enough about where the prophecy
is so that Harry can then be lured to physically
retrieve it. So right now Harry doesn't know what he's
looking for or where it is.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
Yes, I was like, what's the point? Okay, got it?

Speaker 3 (58:58):
But he's the only one other than Baltimore he can touch.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Me, right, yeah, okay, thank you?

Speaker 2 (59:04):
Which he which he finds out about that in this
chapter whatever he's talking to Rookwood about Avery, Avery gave
him poorer information than that anyway. But as far as
finding out that they shared the vision, like Laurie had
said the chapter Acqulemency is whenever they're discussing that. But
like when Harry when the alarms were raised about Arthur's

(59:27):
attack from the Guinea, that's whenever everything kind of went
into place of like all that they could only have
known about this if there's a shared connection.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Okay, and thanks if this was already said, but this
was that was the moment that Tom knew about it too.
It was the moment that Tom connected and he knew
that his thoughts were now leaking into Harry.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
And that's that's when Dumbledore panicked and said, somebody needs
to teach you acqulemency, and unfortunately for all of us,
there's only one candidate.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
There's only one person good enough, baby, And well, here's
the here's the interesting thing is that like the telltale
sign that Tom, this isn't this is a Tom special,
this is a Tom production. Is like not only the
feelings that he's feeling, but how perfectly like I remember
right after the event happened, Harry describes it as though
a film began to play in the back of his head.

(01:00:17):
And that feels very Tom to me. That feels very
like this is a whole production stage. We are going
down the hallway together and you want that door so bad,
you want to open up that door. So it's just
it's just getting more like there's more feelings stacked on
top of this, and that's how you can tell that
Tom is really actively trying to do this, and we

(01:00:40):
see so many other crossovers where he doesn't actively try it.
And that's part of the theory that I'm going to
talk about later with with the with the scene with ecquimency,
like the actual lesson. But just take note right now
of how perfected this scene is, down to the very
footsteps so of Harry running down the hallway. So like

(01:01:01):
this is very much has Tom's hands, all of Tom's fingerprints,
his spindily little fingerprints all all over.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Yeah, it's not organic, you know if you compare it
to McGonagall dancing around with bagpipes or purple megaphone, so
that's organic. It makes no sense. But this is in directed.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Yeap. So Harry wakes up. He ends up saying I
think that his scar is hurting so bad that he
has to buy his pillow or buy his blankets, and
not making a sound that that kind of stuff. So,
you know, moving on this next morning, we got we
we got through that vision with Voltemore. Now it's the

(01:01:40):
next morning. Everyone is said to would be weighed eagerly
waiting on their daily profit paper to come because they
want more information than the escape death eaters. And then
a bunch of owls lay in front of Harry. Hermione
pieces it together fast because it's Hermione. Imagine that, and
they open up Harry's copy of the Quibbler, and the

(01:02:02):
across the front it says Harry Potter speaks out at
last the truth about he who must not be named,
and then not I saw him return and so we
get letters coming for that, and then kind of the
great haul is in an uproar about the quibbler itself anyway,
So but we do get a weird letter that comes in,

(01:02:23):
and I know there are others to talk about, but
I do want to talk about this probably most likely
grown woman sending a letter with a picture.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
Of fifteen of course, thinking back, like to teacher things,
I mean, was it necessary to mention that the reader
included a photo which like, I'm sure it isn't an
inappropriate picture because they're it's a teenager there at school,
Like hopefully this person has a little bit of forethought,
and I assume it is a grown behind woman, you

(01:02:55):
know what I'm saying. But I mean, like, even though
these books are being progressively like more mature, the further
on the books we go, the more mature they get.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
But like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
The first thought of a wow photo is not an
appropriate one for a teenager to see what y'all think.
I'll know, I'll be like wow, you know, like you
get that in the background, like yeah, wow, why are
you send an imagine the thirty seven year old sending

(01:03:29):
a picture to a fifteen year old? You know what
I'm saying that's wrong on any level?

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
Why is it?

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
Isn't they to show that people are inappropriate at all times.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
In all.

Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
Wizarding or not all things?

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
That was supposed to be like a one off?

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
Ha ha.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Isn't this so funny? It does seem wildly inappropriate though,
Like I for some reason I didn't even like la
certainly weirdly something whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
And I think that's Leo.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
Being fifteen and getting a picture.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Bro.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Yeah, absolutely, no, oh b.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Sorry, no, I mean And as far as the chapter reads,
I think that it's just supposed to. It's supposed to
just read as all, look at all these people that
are interested in what was said and all this stuff,
and then there are there are so many things, and Laurie,
you do a wonderful job on your on your podcast
about hitting these things of like, Okay, you could just

(01:04:27):
read over it and glance over it and it is
what it is. But once you dig into like this part,
what is it actually what's happening here? You know what
I mean? And it's gross just as gross. Now now
I am I am of the same mind as Catherine.
It is not an inappropriate picture. It's inappropriate action, not
an inappropriate picture. But still it's just it's just weird.

(01:04:49):
I did I did have one thing. There is a chance,
what if there was a chance that this is a
homeschooled student at another teenager that did do it. But
I know that it's not. They are allowed to be
homeschool in Britain.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
It's not.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
It's not obligated to get to hard boards. But it's not.
We know that it's not. It's just weird. Ron gets
all excited about it because he gets he Ron loves
him an older woman.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
So sorry, Ron is having the exact high school experience
that I never did. My brain does not function in
the same way.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
I can relate anyway. I do like the like the
letters that they get are pretty like interesting at least,
like we know that. I guess they're shock therapy at
Saint Mungo's, for I wonder if Lockhart had to go
through that. But then you know, it talks about people
that are convinced, people that think that he is crazy,
and like you have the whole smorgas by word of

(01:06:01):
opinions that you could have. But do we think that
the article did did more good than bad? I think
that the answer to that is pretty universal but just
just in case I'm missing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Something, I feel like in this chapter, Harry entered, uh
like just a just a taste of Twitter.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Yeah that's true, just a little.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
He posted something up and got a million unsolicited opinions. True,
usually how else? How else are you gonna do it?

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Yeah, that's true. I mean we think we think about like,
you know, celebrities from decades past, like the only way
to get in touch with them typically was like fan
mail kind of stuff, you know what I mean, so
like and and it would be that's what this is.
I mean, it's it's And that's what makes the OWL
system a little messed up. Is like, at any point,
at any moment, you could send a letter to someone.

(01:06:52):
You don't have to have their address anything. Like you
know that the student is at Hogwarts, you just send
them a letter. Like that's a little weird. Yeah, anyway,
at least, like if I was going to send a
celebrity in like the sixties or seventies a hateful letter,
I had to write the letter, I had to find
the address to send it to, I had to put

(01:07:13):
a stamp on, I had to put it in the mail,
and all this stuff. These guys are just like Harry
Potter Hogwarts owl.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
What a loser? Yeah, I believe you said that about him.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Yeah, so real. Obviously there's quite a commotion from people
reading the letters, from the number of owls that are
coming that Dolores Jane Umbridge, our fearless leader, has to
uh has to come over and find out what's going on.

Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
The author writes her in such a such the best
way that when I was reading this through this chapter again,
it was like I freaking hate her, Like, what the heck?
What a loser?

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Like, oh my god, she's feeling panics though that control
slipping away slowly but surely.

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):
Yeah, so makes me sick.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
There was when I was when the end, like this
isn't revealing a ton about the book, but this is
something really insightful that I found. I found like I
got a lot from uh. When Laurie did like a
really insightful like she did the developmental edits for my book.
She was incredible at it. And she pointed out one

(01:08:22):
section where I was talking about Umbrage and is it
okay if I just like basically reveal our conversation about Umbrage.
I originally went into this section about Umbridge I was
talking about, like people typically think that Umbrage is worse
than Tom, and it's a really strange, sort of like
zig zaggy argument, because like she doesn't do even half

(01:08:44):
the atrocities, any of the atrocities that Tom does, but
people consider her to be worse worse than him. And
my argument was that, like she it's just because she's relatable,
she doesn't do nearly as much damage. And then Laurie,
you made this brilliant comment of like she does a
different type of damage and we really shouldn't like downplay

(01:09:05):
the amount of damage that someone like her can do.
I thought that was brilliant, and I changed my article
because the article my section because of that is just
really insightful.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
She's the real life fascination on control, the real life
teacher that you had. I think, I want to say
Alison said something like that, like she's the real life
teacher bully that you had that everybody thought from the
outside was like the kind person and then you really
get to know them and then they're like truthfully evil.

(01:09:38):
It's like Snape but more secretive to me. I know
that's wrong. I'm sorry, I never said that wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
So Laurie, do you want to reveal like more of
your thoughts on arm boards, like because with her loss
of control here, I feel that we see more of
like her insanity.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Oh man, I wish I could hear what everyone was saying.
The screen and the the feed keeps blocking out. Okay,
so did you just ask me generally to say what
I think of Umbrage?

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
But basically, like your Umbrige in this moment is starting
to ouse control, Like and you said that insightful thing
when we were doing the edits.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
That she was more that her type of evil shouldn't
be ignored. It has to necessarily say that she was
worse than Tom because it's, yeah, that's what Grace was
talking about when.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
When fandom says that, when fandom says Umbridge is worse
than Baltimore, although I disagree, I know it's getting at something,
which is that they hit at different parts of you,
you know, as a reader, because something about Baltimore he's distant,
it's hard to understand what he's doing, where he is

(01:10:51):
and how great the range of his evil is. Umbradge
is right in front of your face. She's in your head,
she's you know, stealing your books. She's getting her quill
to cut into you. So what I hear when I
hear people say Umbridge is worse than Baltimore who she's not?

(01:11:13):
Is the part of the of your mind that she
scares is more immediate?

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
Oh yeah yeah, and the damage she does is more incremental.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
It's it's hard, you know. Harry has such a hard
time convincing the rest of the wizard Wizarding world that
Baltimore is back and really doing the things he's doing
because that evil is so big people are afraid to
really open their minds to understand it. But Umbrich just
gets literally right under your skin.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Yes, true, Yeah, so we do. We finally do have
this like confrontation between Umbrage and Harry that comes up here.
She seems to be confused about what an interview as, No,
what do you think, Catherine?

Speaker 4 (01:12:03):
I love I love sassy Harry Man, like I wish
we got more of him in the movies, just like
I wish we got more of actual Jenny with a personality,
but alas we do not. Uh, And he says an interview.
Oh no, she says, an interview, What do you mean?
What did you mean? And he goes, I mean a
reporter asked me questions and I answered him like dummy,

(01:12:28):
ss you know what I'm saying, like I'm did I
have decesed, like I love it so much and my
brain doesn't work, yes, like my brain does not work
like that, Like I would have been like, well, uhuh
I got in an interview, like you know what? Word
like that would be me. I would be tripping over
my words because I wouldn't be that. I mean a

(01:12:52):
reporter asked me questions and I answered him like what
else do you think? I mean an interview, which like
what what come at me? Bro? Like I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Harry because he says the things that I wish I
could think of in the moment. If I were put
on the spot like him, I'd be like, oh same.

Speaker 4 (01:13:13):
I think about that in the shower after we've had
that conversation and I'm replaying on her hand.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
In bed, reviewing all your failures from the.

Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
What God guy could have said that right there? And
it really what a jab?

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Yes, you know, would be so clever, so cool man, I.

Speaker 4 (01:13:31):
Really, But then it was then I think what was
she say in response to that? And then I'd get
in trouble and then and then which.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
Get in trouble anyway, he needed the interview you get
in trouble. That's true, in trouble with the other teachers market.

Speaker 4 (01:13:47):
That's what I'm saying. Man, Like I love it because
I would be the one. But they didn't even he
didn't even have to ask, Like you know, they all
hear and this stuff. They all know how she is,
and they're like, I.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
Do think that they are trying to make up for
the fifty points that she took from him for doing
it too. So like I guarantee that the Griffin dorms
got their fifty points back pretty quick.

Speaker 4 (01:14:09):
And maybe then some a little bit, you know, just
like a spite that just blessed my heart when I
because I forgot it was like Harry got ten points
for passing the the water and can the professor sprout?
And I'm like, oh, that blesses my heart, you sweetheart.
You think you just go out the head, give her
some some dung while you're at it, and get another five,

(01:14:33):
you know, And I forgot that sugar mice were a
thing that Flitwick presses a box of sugar mice to
his chest and like like a drug dealer, like just
just keep it between me and you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
Flip like first one's free.

Speaker 4 (01:14:51):
Yeah yeah, I was like, that's is that a king?
I forgot about that eating mice with eating frogs, Like,
I'm good. I don't want things that are like real
things that that creeps me out.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
But but the.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
Idea behind it was like, yeah, excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
Boy, what we can sprout our real ones for sure? Yeah, yeah,
I love of them.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
So what we are also specifically talking about is that
because of the because of the Quibbler interview, Educational Decree
number twenty seven is pasted. It is any student found
in possession of the magazine the Quibbler will be expelled.
And Hermione thinks of this as the best thing that
has ever happened. And then I wanted I went back

(01:15:35):
to episode one oh four and found a previous comment
from huffle Pug talking about like the I guess the
psychology behind banning the Quibbler and why it worked out.
Hermione talks about this some you know, the best thing
that you could do for a group of teenagers, and
stell of them, don't do it.

Speaker 4 (01:15:55):
Guilty or children or in general thirty four.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Year old people. Hey, but huffle Pug wrote I love
the social commentary that comes with Umbrage's banning of the quibbler.
It makes me think of how band books end up
being some of the most popular books ever because people
want to know what all the hop is about. Hermione
was one step ahead because she knew exactly how Umbridge

(01:16:22):
would react and how the students would respond to that,
which is an example of how she's socially intelligent as
well as academically intelligent. This, combined with Hermione's manipulation of
Rita Skeeter, brings out some Slytherin in her in my opinion,
and it's the very best kind of Slytherin example, willingness
to alter the environment and break the rules, to work

(01:16:44):
backward for lack of a better term, the greater good.
I don't think that Hermione has very much Slytherin in her,
but that that's beside the point of the comment. I
think the comment makes makes a lot of sense as
far as yeah, we know it's it is the best
thing that that that they could do, because how many
people wouldn't have read it just because they're jealousy of

(01:17:07):
Harry uh discreditation of Harry, all those different things.

Speaker 4 (01:17:12):
Their parents' comments about you know who he is and
what he's going after, and yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
The outing of the Death Theater kids, the kid, Yeah,
there's only Death Theater kids. A little later in the
next book.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah, the jew the Death Theaters in training, little meeting
that they had because they can't talk about it.

Speaker 4 (01:17:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's how he said. He knew, like that
was his ultimate last box to be checked. That they're upset.
They like they've read it too, and it was like okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
Yep, yeah, Luna's Luna says that this is the most
popular edition of The Equippler ever and that he has
to reprint it. It says that Xenophilius is he can't
believe it because it seems like you are more interested
in this band, the crumple Horn Storkak.

Speaker 4 (01:18:09):
So oh god, what a guy.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
It's so interesting. I love that comment.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Yeah, it was good.

Speaker 4 (01:18:21):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
So so we're back. We're back. Yeah, we're back in
the uh, we're back in in the dormitory for that evening.
Harry is ready to go to bed, and we get
another vision that comes through, this one with with Rookwood
discussing kind of how all of the planning for getting

(01:18:43):
the prophecy has gone down, we get we get the
backstory of why Bode was killed in Saint Mungo's all
that kind of stuff and kind of the information that
he had. So, you know, honestly, I'll just I'll let
you all hammer this one because there's there's a lot
here and then then we can move on to the

(01:19:06):
just a.

Speaker 4 (01:19:06):
Small aside because mine is not of any importance whatsoever here.
But I thought it was cool because I play Hogwarts Legacy.
Totally got a PS five just to play Hogwarts Legacy.
It's my birthday present. Very excited. But I thought it
was a cool connection between this chapter and Hogwarts Legacy.
So one of the main antagonists is Victor Rookwood, who

(01:19:28):
is of course I had to look it up because
I was like Rookwood, I mean, obviously this is not him,
because this was I think it's later or before. I
can't remember before, Harry, I don't know what. I don't
really talk about, Harry. Yes, was it before or after?
It before?

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
It's way beforehand, it's actually even before.

Speaker 4 (01:19:48):
Yeah, yes, okay, thank you clear that up. I play it.
I've already created two characters, and I still didn't have
answer to that to.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
That, Okay, look, I love the game. I I I
got my game used from game Stop. At some point,
I've been having so much fun, Like midway.

Speaker 4 (01:20:03):
Through, it's so good. It's so good. It's so hard
to not just go try to fight people all the time.
Like that's that's why I created my second player, was
just go fight people. But I did read that Victor
Rookwood is a descendant of the death Eater. In this
particular chapter, I guesstus Rookwood, So I thought that was
neat that they they are also nerds like us and

(01:20:26):
tried to do all the little detailing things of including people,
you know, like that's so cool.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
It was really cool meeting there rendered because you know,
I've I famously am like an only books kind of person,
Like I don't consider anything outside of the books to
be cannon. I did have a lot of fun playing
around with different things that they have going on within
the Hogwarts Legacy game. The whole Victor Rookwood thing was
super fun. With this crazy top hat. I loved it.
I thought it was really interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:20:53):
Very cool.

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
I also love, like, I love the little storylines that
they were coming up with. I couldn't.

Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
Yes, me too.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
I feel like they could have pushed it even further.
But like that's that's a whole issue with game development
in general, people not giving them enough time or enough
money to do that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (01:21:09):
But hopefully we'll have another opportunity if they come out
with like the next year and the next year and
mm hmmm, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):
Yeah now now that but I have of this generation, yes,
I have got so Okay, my head cannons for Rookwood
are based in literally nothing. I've got whole story lins
for Rookwood in the back of my head based off
of just me thinking too hard. But I love the
character of Victor Rookwood apropos of nothing. We get nothing
on the page. I just really like zoned in on

(01:21:39):
this one escaped to death eater who does a bunch
of evil crap by literally like just farrying information from
the ministry to Tom. But this Lauria had this incredible
thought here about how Harry sees the the the scene.

Speaker 3 (01:21:55):
Oh God, I'm so sorry. I wish I could hear
what you just said. OKAYR yeah, I love you. Had
this incredible thought about how I love this writing this
entire chapter is written so expertly and confidently, And this
dream that Harry has, it's different in nature from some

(01:22:16):
of the other visions he's had. He it's written so
that Harry thinks in the first person of himself and
he's Voldemort, which is terrifying. You know, where is the
line between his identity in Baltimore's identity? Is he turning
into Voldemort? Are they the same person? And he sees

(01:22:37):
a cracked age spotted mirror hung on the wall in
the shadows, which is such good writing because yeah, Voldemort
is cracked in age spotted, but it doesn't even say that.
It's yeah, just setting the scene. And so Harry goes
to look at himself and he's Baltimore. That shows us
the reader that this connection, this vision in Harry's head,

(01:23:01):
it's not voluntary. Baltimore is not planting it. It's not
like Voldemort is saying, you want to know what's behind
that door. He is letting Harry into spying on this
scene and finding out things that the real Baldemort would
not want Harry to know. So that's what the different

(01:23:23):
levels going on here are so subtle and confusing and masterful,
and I think that's part of the excitement of this
chapter is that it's actually difficult to understand.

Speaker 4 (01:23:34):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Yeah, okay, so I have a question whenever whenever uh Voldemort,
Harry is walking around and they go get a closer
look in the mirror. The next line in the in
the book, it's just a quote of no and that that,
and then Harry is waking up in his bed. Who

(01:23:56):
is or it may be both like it and it
may be both for different reasons. It's is that Harry
screaming no in because he is scared of like, hey,
I saw myself as Baltimore, Like we know that he
as he's having these visions, like he he always mentions
his hands, you know, just like his first person's perspective
of being able to see hands. But this is the
first time he ever sees Baltimore's face during the vision.

(01:24:19):
So you have that part and then exactly what Laurie
just said, it's also Baltimore going like, oh crap, Harry
can see what I'm talking about, and I'm clearly talking
about the prophecy.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
Here dastardly plan, I just lovely plan.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
They're both having the same reaction to different two different
events from the same That's what's.

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
So brilliant about it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:42):
What the man that's like either one of.

Speaker 1 (01:24:45):
Them could be screaming no, I dam. This is one
of the interesting times where we see some people theorize
that Harry has darker skin because of how shocked he
is to see white hands, and that could because Tom's
so deathly pale, skeletal, pale, whatever. Yeah, we know that
he's super pale. But also it's one of those moments

(01:25:06):
where you have a comparison of like, oh, are Harry's
hands darker because of that?

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Is that why that shocks him so much when he
sees it. So I love that little theory personally. It's
not set in stone, but I love to think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:19):
I think when we hear the scream, know it turns
out that it is definitely Harry. I don't think Baltimore
knows that Harry has been in his mind this way
and the scream of no wakes up ron So I
think it is.

Speaker 4 (01:25:34):
So you're saying that Baltimore doesn't know that Harry's in
there cell, That's what I think. But I thought he
was using it against him, or is it that this
particular time he didn't. It's that that he was seeing
this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
Valdemort is not any more experienced than Harry about this
connection that the two of them have had since the
end of Goblet of Fire, and Valdemort was unaware of
Harry's presence in his mind until Arthur Weasley getting bitten
by Neguinei. So this was happening to Harry for a

(01:26:08):
long time before Boldemort was even conscious of it. So
he's just starting to He has training wheels on about
this and with Baltimore, the more agitated and emotional he is,
the less control he has. So this how is he
this whole scene where he's upset because he's found out

(01:26:31):
that his death theaters have fed him the wrong information
and he's been wasting all this time and he's he's
really upset that emotion is leaking through. It's so the
way that the people who have magical scars shared with Baltimore,
the way that that works when he's conscious of it,
he can turn it on and off, you know, he

(01:26:53):
can occlude them or he can make them think it.
But it also works when he's not conscious of it,
like a volume control. Like if Waldemorod is just kind
of feeling whatever, then you're not conscious of it. But
when he has huge surges of joy or rage or terror,
then that bleeds through and everybody who's got either a

(01:27:17):
dark mark or a magical scart feels it. And in
this case, when he's.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
An interesting like what an interesting viewpoint to think that
the dark marks are also linked.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
Yeah, the thing to remember is Baltimore is not that
far ahead of Harry and figuring out how to handle this.
They're they're all really scared.

Speaker 2 (01:27:41):
Yeah, well, m Harry. Harry even speaks to that, you know,
in just a bit. He says that when he's recapping
kind of everything that they're talking about, Harry tells Ron like, ah,
Valtimore's on the right track again because Rookwood's don't help him.
So like it's and it's everything, it's the prophecy, it's
the it's the connection, like they're kind of all. Baltimore

(01:28:06):
is ahead of Harry and the weapon obviously because he's
going after it and Harry's still trying to figure that
piece out. But he got Baltimore was slowed for a
long time and now he's back on the right track.
But but Laurie, I think that I think that this
scene here is another spot where Baltimore gets back on

(01:28:27):
the right track with the connection, because I think that
when the scene starts, Baltimore does not know that Harry's there.
I agree with you, but I think that when Harry
realizes what's happening and he says no, I think that
Baltimore is also reacting in the same way because I
think that I think he saw that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:47):
If he's going to know that Harry is there, I
think this book would be the book because he doesn't know.
Later on, more and more often, because it becomes like
I feel, he becomes more and more unhinged as he's
losing those pieces of himself. There's a good chance at
either one of those. I think personally, I believe that
he doesn't know, but I think that it could be

(01:29:08):
read in many differs.

Speaker 3 (01:29:09):
I'm gonna say that Valdemort does not figure it out
because he is too upset about the Rookwood and avery
issue that is gripping his emotions. Because very soon after this,
Harry wakes up and he has a conversation with Ron,
and then his scar is in agony because Voldemort is punishing.

Speaker 4 (01:29:34):
That's where he's yet and that pillow that happens very
soon after.

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
I don't think Baltimort has time or energy to be
focusing on Harry Potter at the moment. He's he's just
really angry at his followers.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
He's upset at his family again, family issues with Tom.
I would love to.

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
Hear somebody needs again.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Exactly. Oh my god, I'd love to talk about the
dark Marks again versus the scars, because I never thought
of the Dark Marks this way. I think it's it's
an interesting way of enriching the thought of how Tom
is connected to his family, his chosen family. I personally
read it as though his emotions don't connect to his

(01:30:19):
followers specifically because he wants to appear to them like
a god. It's like he's the head of their family,
and he's the god together the world. He's the lord of
the world. So if there there was like a specific
situation where happiness might be able to bleed through, he
wouldn't want them to know he's feeling it. He wouldn't
want them to know he's pleased unless he tells them

(01:30:40):
he's pleased. I would feel like he would want that
additional control over that relationship. So I don't know. Like
from how I read the dark Mark, my viewpoint is
that it only can burn and cause pain or appear
in a darker fashion. I don't think that it can
transfer emotions in the same way that the scar can,
because the scar is unintentional. The scar is his soul

(01:31:04):
clinging to something that it should not have technical by
his standards, it should not be there. So this connection.
There's a really insightful quote from Snape later on when
they're talking about when he's talking to Dumbledore about the
Scar connection, where he's talking about, are we're talking of
souls not of minds. It's like something a court akin

(01:31:25):
to that, where they're talking about how their minds are
connected and their souls are connected versus one or the other,
and then Dumbledore says something like, when we're talking about this,
they're very much interlinked. I think that the scar connection
is a much more powerful connection. The dark Mark connection
is something that Tom has complete control over. So he
only wants them to feel pain or see that scar

(01:31:48):
darkening when he thinks it's appropriate.

Speaker 3 (01:31:51):
I think that's what he wants, and I think that's
most of the time true. But Tom is not always strong.
When we see him back to life in Goblet of Fire,
and Karkaroff and Snape are feeling things in their dark
marks intensify Tom. At that time, you've got me doing

(01:32:12):
Tom right, Tom slash Voldemort. He is not in control,
and we see this again later in Deathly Hallows when
he is losing a grip on himself, and again he's
not so much in control. We see that Baltimore uses

(01:32:34):
acclemency against everybody all the time. You know, when at
the end of this book, when he decides that he's
never going to share mind with Harry again because it's
too painful, then he accludes Harry permanently, and that's something
that he can do when he's in control. And then
as he loses control, as he loses bits of himself,

(01:32:55):
he's less and less able to do that. And I
think a moment when he discovers that Rookwood and Avery
are have really let him down here and he's lost
control so much that he's going to be punishing them,
it's a moment that bleeds. He's so upset and that
I think it's a moment that bled through the connection

(01:33:17):
into Harry's consciousness. Even though normally Voldemort would have had
the control to include that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
Now, I actually I agree with you on this. My
question is, and also I don't think he was punishing Rookwood.
I think he was punishing just Avery favorite.

Speaker 2 (01:33:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:31):
Yeah, but it's okay, and.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
I Rookwood's safe. He's like, you're the good family member.
This one is on my But my question is, and
I possibly forgot because I've been so Tom focused that
maybe I miss something about this. Do they Is there
ever anything in the material that says like Snape felt

(01:33:53):
this through his mark or like he says something like that,
or is it just that they see it darkening and
painting them.

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):
It only so this is this is where me and
Laurie do disagree on the last episode that we were on.
This is one of the things that we did that
we went a little back and forth on and I
just yeah, we yeah, we moved on to Comport, we
stopped talking about it. I think that in Goblet of Fire,
whenever that's happening, Like I know that Cokerov and Snape
both talk about how the scar burned, and it talks

(01:34:22):
about how it gets stark throughout the year, So like
that that is all happening. But I think that when
it when. Because they only talk about it burning one time,
and we know that Baltimort touched the mark on Peter
Pettigrew to call the death Eaters, I think that's whenever
that burns. So I do think that that was an
intentional and I'm not saying that it's not possible to

(01:34:46):
go outside of the realm of that, But whenever you're
comparing Baltimore and Harry Scar connection to Dark Mark Scar
in Baltimore, I think that you have to look at
it as involuntary, voluntary. There's nothing that we can do
about the hair well, there's there's nothing really that controllable

(01:35:10):
about the Harry Voltimort connection in Baltimore. Because he created
the death the dark Mark, he can control what gets
passed through there.

Speaker 1 (01:35:20):
That's my opinion.

Speaker 4 (01:35:21):
Yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:35:23):
I think I think that's that. I think it's a
very interesting discussion to have. I think that bringing up
more and more about the about the death Eater dark
Mark Voltimort connection, I think it's really interesting. I don't
I struggle finding that on a page.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):
I think that at the root of this is just
sort of observing the way that Tom thinks about his
family because he's never had a family. The ones that
he does manage to entrap, like capture, He marks them
and he cages them because they will never get away
from him, or he will kill them like that is.

(01:36:00):
That is how he thinks of people who have connected
themselves to him. And some people, as you see, like
the Bellatrix is, the Bardi Crouch Juniors, the the Rookwood
Redolph is all of these people. They love that about him, right, Uh.
They love to be entrapped by him. Reasonable. Other people
who are thinking, probably on a more healthy level, see
that and they get nervous about it. And other people

(01:36:23):
like Lucius are willing to overlook it because they think
that the rules don't apply to them in a certain sense.
I haven't looked as much into I haven't studied Lucius
as much, but the impression that I get is that
he thinks that he is above the rules in most circumstances.
So it's playing fast and loose with those rules.

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
So weird a rich person thinking the rules don't apply
out of them?

Speaker 3 (01:36:45):
Crazy?

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
All right, next morning, let's do the let's do the
break down with Harry Ron Hermione going over what happened
last night.

Speaker 4 (01:36:56):
Yeah, so Hermione starts, or Harry starts, telling them about
the dream and everything that's happened and how horrible it was.
But then also like saw all that and the saw
the hands, saw your face, and he's like and then
Hermione just says, like, just try to forget everything you
just saw. And I'm like, huh, like what She's so

(01:37:19):
adamant about him trying to forget it? Like it makes
me angry because I mean, yeah, he he chose to
follow it. I would have done the same thing, Like
I'm not a Gryffindor.

Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
But like I would have, he didn't, you know, Tom
forced him to.

Speaker 4 (01:37:32):
Okay, But but.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
Harry puts all this stuff on himself all the time.
Tom pushes most of these bad situations onto him. Let's
put it back to where the source is. Hermione's blaming Harry,
but it's not his fault.

Speaker 4 (01:37:47):
I don't know, okay, I mean innocence, it's not. But
also like and and granted, I think I mostly wrote
that about the first vision where he felt the excitement,
but we also know that Harry would have done it
anyway whether or not Voldemort had pushed the excitement on him.
He still is the kind of person that's like, I
want to figure this out, and so that's why he

(01:38:10):
sat there. To me, that's why he sat there the
whole freaking time this dream was happening, because he wanted
to know what was happening. Like, I think that is
I know it's dangerous, but like if if Voldemort already
knows that he can see a lot of the things
that's happening, which granted we just talked about the fact
that he did not think that Harry could see this

(01:38:31):
particular night, But if he already knows he can see stuff,
then why not stay in it a little bit longer?
He hasn't like other than his scar hurting, he doesn't
physically hurt him. He doesn't like strangle him or kill
him in his sleep or anything. He just sees. So like,
how do they not see that this is a particularly

(01:38:52):
good vantage point for them to know what's coming at them,
Like it saved Arthur's life? Like how is this scene
as a bad thing? Like help me.

Speaker 3 (01:39:07):
I don't blame either Harry or Hermione. I think the
confusion that they're feeling is an artifact of God slash
Dumbledore not being here anymore in this volume. Dumbledore, when
he was communicating with them, told them, as Hermione correctly remembers, Harry,

(01:39:30):
it's really important for you to shut this out. But
Dumbledore has not communicated enough to explain why. And the
reason why we later find out is because if Harry
is receptive to Voldemort's manipulation, then Valdemorre can just make
him do all sorts of really dangerous, destructive things. But
Dumbledore didn't explain that Hermione has the incomplete instruction from Dumbledore,

(01:39:56):
and she still has faith, you know, in Dumbledore and
says we have to do what he says, even if
we don't know why. Meanwhile, Harry has been so battered
by the lack of communication with Dumbledore that any long
ago instruction it doesn't have any hold on him compared
to the desolation he's feeling at all of this fear

(01:40:19):
and the constant temptation from what Baltimore is giving him.
What Dumbledore didn't manage to convey to Harry is, if
you want to be able to resist this temptation from Baltimore,
you have to think about who you can protect by
resisting it. Oh yeah, because we see later on that Voldemort. Yeah,

(01:40:43):
he actually, you know, when we see how Harry responds
to anything about serious, Sirius tries on purpose to connect
with Harry, and Harry's like, oh no, no, no, no,
I will not respond to serious because that might endanger him.
You know, it's natural what Harry. Harry does have that
natural response. If Dumbledore had been in a safe position

(01:41:08):
to explain to Harry, think about who you're protecting by
not giving in, it would have worked. But that's not
the kind of desperate war situation they're in, and Dumbledore
hasn't been around, so Hermione, I'm she's completely right to
think that Dumbledore wouldn't have said that without reason, but
they don't. It's not possible for Harry and Hermione to

(01:41:30):
know what to do at this point. Yeah, and Dumbledore
also is not It's not like he's choosing to be unavailable.
He's fighting as hard as he can. Also, it's right,
that's what war is like.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
Yeah, it's a strange, multi layered tragedy that they're kind
of caught in at this point. Because I agree with
what you're saying, Laurie, and also it's it's also like
a layer of how both Tom and Dumbledore work where
it's like, put your complete faith in me, I have
victory in mind, don't question. So it's and it keeps

(01:42:11):
happening too, like it happens right up until the end
of the series. But that's kind of just like how
they function, and it's how they win in a lot
of ways, because if too many people know what they're doing,
that's more people that can up up upah and tell
someone else. Yeah, so only certain people know somethings and
only certain people know other things. It's just it's just
how they're working. It's a clever way to work, but

(01:42:32):
it's also a really scary way to work, and it
demands a lot of faith, especially from kids.

Speaker 3 (01:42:37):
Yeah, the problem with Hermione saying you have to do
what Dumbledore says is that Hermione doesn't know how to
do that either. Nobody, including Hermione, has any idea how
Harry's supposed to try to forget and Snape is about
to have a whole lesson where he wishes he could
convey that and can't.

Speaker 2 (01:42:54):
Well, I personally think that that's why Hermione keeps coming
back to what them said. Is like in a situation
like this, I think that Hermione is just scared to
death because she doesn't understand what's happening. All she has
is information is a statement that is given by Dumbledore
of hey, do this, and she's like, well, we're gonna

(01:43:15):
do this because I don't know what else to do,
and I'm scared, and there's our snakes and spiders and
Voldemort's and terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:43:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:43:29):
Sorry, so down.

Speaker 1 (01:43:31):
I like a picture right now, the snakes and spiders
and then Voldemort crawling around.

Speaker 4 (01:43:35):
Oh, I was thinking of the Wizard of Oz snakes.

Speaker 3 (01:43:44):
So yeah. The relationship between Harry and Dumbledore, at least
in Harry's mind right now, is at such a low
point because that's a risk you have with any teenager.
The age of that, Harry is, if you're an adult,
if you talk one way to the teenager and you
don't trust them with explanations, you lose their trust. And

(01:44:05):
if the teenagers don't get information from you, then they
stop asking you, they stop becoming willing to communicate because
it's no use. That's any teenager, And then Harry's situation
is infinitely more precarious. So of course he is not
at all believing in Dumbledore at the moment and not

(01:44:25):
that Dumbledore's around to challenge that either, So he's really
vulnerable right now.

Speaker 4 (01:44:32):
It's not just like it's one thing like it. It
keeps happening. And I think as I mean, even as humans,
like like the joke where it's like I told you
I loved you the day that I married you, and
I didn't have to tell you again. I'll tell you
when I change my mind, like he keeps like, I
need that reaffirmation that what am I doing, I need

(01:44:54):
to do that. I still need to keep doing this. Yes,
keep forgetting about it. I need you to keep forgetting
but well, well they just I just felt this guy
torturing him. You just need to keep forgetting about it.
You need to keep working on it. And he's not
there to give that continued reassurance after and he can't
be the thing and thing and thing. Yeah, I mean
that's true. And as a fifteen year old, you're not

(01:45:15):
necessarily thinking that he's not here because he can't be here.
But then his track record proves he probably wouldn't have anyway,
like he wouldn't have said anything like that anyway other
than yeah, just keep doing it. You're on the right track.
Just keep going and it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
Just keep making talking directly to his destiny.

Speaker 4 (01:45:36):
Yeah, the frustration of not only not having answers, but
feeling like you're not they're not there for you, and
stuff keeps happening to you. You can't even get a
break in your sleep, like, and then when you wake
up you have umbrage and then there's not in Where
is the adult that I can go to talk to?
I can't And then I've got you know, Hermione over

(01:45:57):
here being like you just forget everything you said because
that's what dumbled Dorres has to do and we gotta
trust him and blah blah, and it's like they can't
can't get a freaking break. Man. It's a rough year
for Harry for sure. Yeah, And there's nobody supporting that,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:11):
And that's what That's exactly what's leading up to the
to the big Occlemency lesson that we're getting ready to see,
is Harry. The narration even says it says the week
didn't improve as it went along. He got right, he
got he's worried about Haggard getting fired. He's worried about
this and that, and so like all these things that
are weighing on this boy's mind and now he's going

(01:46:33):
into Snape to.

Speaker 4 (01:46:35):
Be Yeah, I can't even imagine the mental acrobats that kid,
you know, goes through on the daily basis, Like blessed
I love.

Speaker 3 (01:46:45):
This is one of my favorite segues in this whole
series because the writing is so good. He tried to
push the matter to the back of his mind. Unfortunately
the back of his mind was no longer the secure
place that had once been Get.

Speaker 1 (01:46:58):
Up, so it was perfect wow.

Speaker 3 (01:47:02):
Because that segue it moves you in time. That's two
weeks and it moves you in place. And when you
hear get up Potter, you know, why would you say
to somebody get up? Because it's just fallen? Because you know,
so we're like in the middle of the lesson, Harry
has failed again. I'm sure Snape's floor is very hard

(01:47:23):
and cold. And the way that the way get up Potter,
and you know exactly how it sounds. It's like everybody's
worst nightmare of the voice in your head that you
don't want and there it is so just the confidence
in this writing just blows me away. So yeah, two

(01:47:48):
weeks later, there's Harry transition. It works so well, So Harry,
you know, now his knees hurt and he's in his
least favorite place, and Snape asks about the memory concerning
a man kneeling in the middle of a darkened room.
And Snape has just Harry has just been in the

(01:48:10):
middle of a rush of super disorganized sounds and memories,
including stuff that he didn't even know he remembered. And
out of all of that huge mess, Snape has been
sifting on purpose. He Snape is tracking the scar connection
to see to monitor how that's going. So he's pulled

(01:48:30):
that out and you know, harr He's like, huh what
And Snape's low, dangerous voice he says, you know, asking
why I'm giving up my evenings to this tedious job.
Like his irritation is for real. He he gets irritated
like that when he's afraid.

Speaker 2 (01:48:52):
Yeah, so Laurie, you had you had just mentioned uh,
you know, he sifts them through, He sifts them through
all this. I love. I love the information gathering style
that Snape has. I think that that's why he suited
for the job that he has here. Do we know
how much correspondent Snape and Bouldemort are having throughout the

(01:49:12):
school year you said, you said, Alee, of those questions,
you said, a couple of weeks have gone by, Yeah,
since since Rookwood was since the Rookwood Vision and that
kind of stuff. So do we know if Snape and
Baltimore would have been able to have a conversation in
between then and now?

Speaker 3 (01:49:34):
Don't that's possible? There's nothing, Yeah, there's nothing about it.
But you have to pretty much assume that Snape never
slept that whole year. So probably if Woldemort was feeling
bored and anxious, probably called people over to him all
the time.

Speaker 1 (01:49:50):
Tom's never bored, but he's always anxious. I love the
idea of Snape is I feel like one of the
most brilliant characters for how much he's able to sift
through at once. I feel like Tom is very intelligent.
I feel like Snape is able to comprehend things on

(01:50:11):
different levels that that Tom is able to like. I
feel like Snape and Dumbledore are two of these characters
that can really parse down through emotions and really read
situations like this. So I love hearing your your thoughts
on like this the lesson and what Snape is doing
in the background, and like what he may or may

(01:50:31):
not have been ordered to do and like how it
works out. So I love that we're getting.

Speaker 4 (01:50:36):
Into this theory.

Speaker 3 (01:50:38):
So do we want to go into that question in blue?
Is that kind of Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:50:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:50:43):
I was just saying it in response to your when
Snape was talking in his low dangerous voice. You were
saying that it's that he was giving up his evenings
to this tedious job, that this is someone who really
wants Harry to learn occlemency, And like I was like,
I hate to even write this, but like, is it

(01:51:05):
someone who wants to learn a cut? Like if he
knows Baldemort's power, the fact that he's literally part of
Harry now and Baldemort knows it now, wouldn't that be
different than like protecting an outsider from trying to probe
his mind? Like isn't Harry accluding Snape different from Boldemort?
Like we kind of touched on this earlier, but like

(01:51:26):
Harry can't even stop Snape, so granted, like there's that
he can't do yet, but then like, and Snape's known
for his ability to do that, so we're like a master,
but like, wouldn't its basically be useless to somebody who
like is you or like, is.

Speaker 1 (01:51:41):
Is one with you?

Speaker 4 (01:51:42):
Like? And I feel like Snape knows this, So it's
it's still gonna be even a whole other level than
trying to occlude Snape, because Snape's just going into his mind.
Freaking Baltimore is in his mind. So how how is
this somebody who really won't Harry to learn ac clemency
because like it's impossible.

Speaker 3 (01:52:04):
Isn't it. I don't think they know. That's what Snape
is trying to find out, right now. That's what Dumbledore
is trying to find out. The night that Arthur got bitten,
he casts that spell with the two headed Snake and
he says, oh, but they're in essence divided. That's Dumbledore

(01:52:24):
wondering if Harry is turning into Voldemort, if Voldemort is
possessing him, or if the real Harry is still there
and has his own boundaries and the real Voldemort is
still there with his own boundaries, but they have somehow
a connection. That's Dumbledore is wanting to know that because
Voldemort's best and easiest skill is possession. That's what he does.

(01:52:50):
He takes over other people and crowds out their true
selves until he just takes over and then when he's
done with them, he leaves and they die like it's
not a fun thing. And Dumbledore, of course would like
to know if there's any way to protect Harry in
any way from this, but they have nothing to compare

(01:53:12):
it to. They've never seen this kind of connection before.
And meanwhile, Snape has many times, for many years been
in Baltimore's presence, able to lie to his face, able
to occlude him. So let's see if the one person
we know who has survived this experience can in any

(01:53:35):
way team up with Harry and figure out what's going
on and maybe in part something. But they're desperate, and
you know, and we know on the other side of
things that Baltimore is not that far ahead of them.
He doesn't, you know, this is a whole new toy
for him to.

Speaker 1 (01:53:50):
So this is actually what I wanted to talk to
you about. Go ahead, Josh.

Speaker 2 (01:53:54):
I do think Baltimore is a head on how to
manipulate that connection, like we had just talked about with
the with that the last vision in the hallway, But
I think that Dumbledore is at least ahead in how
to combat it, not that Baltimore's really looking to combat
it at this point anyway, But like if you go
back to the attack and it's kind of the aftermath

(01:54:15):
when they're at Grandma's placed, Harry's talking to Serious and
he and he tells Sirius like, hey, when I was
leaving in that port, key, like I wanted to attack Dumbledore.
And I think with that information, I think that dumbled
because I fully believe that Serious would tell Dumbledore. Dumbledore
and Snake will talk about that. So like you have
that line of information that comes out, and that is

(01:54:36):
Dumbledore understanding like you, like like you had said, Laurie,
something different is happening here. It's not just a sharing
of the minds. It's a sharing of emotions and sharing
of motives almost, And I think that that is where
Dumbledore gets out ahead of how can we stop this

(01:54:58):
even though we don't understand truly what's happening? Yeah, all right,
would you have grace full disclosure?

Speaker 1 (01:55:05):
This is all just theories here, because like there's there
I'm of two minds about this, right, this like brilliant
theory that like Tom is in more control over, like
is a little bit more experimental with it. With the
connection that he has with Harry, is I think something
that holds water. He loves experimental magic, and he's not

(01:55:27):
afraid to try something that will gain him more power.
But on the other hand, he's also very set on control,
like control is the one thing that gives him true comfort,
is as much comfort as he can find in this
world as to be in control of something. He recognizes
through this book that he thinks that he has certain
elements of control, and then moments happen like Nageni Ornaghini.

(01:55:50):
I always get the name wrong. I'm so sorry, I'm
such a bad tom Stan, But Naghini, like during that attack,
he lost control because Harry was able to see it,
and like the proof is in the pudding because they
reacted like that to it and they managed to save
mister Weasley. So I don't even know if he truly

(01:56:11):
knew that Harry was in the mindset, because he might
have gotten that information from the fact that they were
able to save him later, So that was how he
became aware of it. So with all these breadcrumbs planted
where like all these things are bleeding through where he
doesn't have complete control over the connection, it makes me
think that he might be on the more guarded side

(01:56:31):
of saying that maybe maybe I need to prepare a
little bit more because all of my steps of oversight,
all the thing, all the mistakes that I've made have
can really be rooted down to me not being prepared
enough in certain circumstances. So him choosing like my, I know, Laurie,

(01:56:51):
you have this brilliant theory that like he's peering through
Harry's eyes, he's actually spying on snape as it's as
the lesson is happened. And part of me thinks that
sounds incredible, like maybe that is something that Tom would do.
It sounds like some way that he might be paranoid
and keeping watch over his precious family member here and

(01:57:12):
making sure that he stays in line and is trying
to like keep him from ucluting completely, like because I
could totally see him being like, crack that mind open
like an egg so I can make some omelets, okay,
and then we all have breakfast tomorrow. But then the
other hand, I'm thinking, like he doesn't have so much
control that things don't start bleeding through, like the joyous

(01:57:36):
moment that Harry felt when there was the Askaban breakout,
or this exchange that he has with Rookwood over Avery's failure. Like,
I'm really of two minds here, because he could have
said to Snape, yes, please make sure that you do
these lessons so that we can make sure to like,
don't don't teach him anything, make sure that you open

(01:57:58):
it up for me. Or it's on the other hand
where it's like Snape is really trying to guard him,
and I'm getting lost in my own theories here. I
just feel like he could have gone into completely different
directions and it would make sense.

Speaker 3 (01:58:13):
Well, we do know Voldemort, I think, is trying to
feed some hints to Snape because he, Waltemort believes Snape
is totally on his side, So great, excellent. You know,
Voldemort on the outside wants the destruction of Harry Potter
and he's got his inside man, Snape. Yeah, you know,

(01:58:34):
so he he thinks that Snape is gleefully joining in
on this, trying to deliver Harry to him. And what
we do know from the first acclimency lesson is Snape
says that time and space matter and magic and until
now Voldemort has never been able to see through into

(01:58:54):
Hogwarts until the scar connection with you. So until now,
while he was at Hogwarts, Snape was safe from Voldemort.
He could, you know, he didn't have to work so
hard to be the double agent. But now whenever Harry
Potter looks at him and Voldemort is in Harry's eyes,
Snape has to double his defenses.

Speaker 4 (01:59:17):
It's got to be exhausting.

Speaker 1 (01:59:19):
Here's the interesting part. I love that thought. I'm of
a mind that we see Harry dip into Tom's mindset
would just whenever, just like it kind of just connects
it when there's moments of strong emotion. So there might
be moments of strong emotion where Harry where Tom is

(01:59:40):
able to see through Harry's eyes as well. I don't
think that Tom is able to control it because Harry's
not able to control it. And they're on equal footing
when it comes to this connection. If anything, Harry has
better control over the connection than Tom does in a
lot of ways because and this is going on a
completely different level, but his soul is pure, He's not

(02:00:01):
hurt by these kind of things. So, and we even
see it when Tom loses in the duel in the graveyard,
because their wands connect and he's able to push those
beads of light back to Tom's wand he wins at that.
Because his soul is pure at an emotional and like
a soul level, he's able to be more powerful than Tomas.

(02:00:22):
He's able to appreciate these things. So it's possible that
this connection that they have, he's also able to wield
it in a better sense. And we see that a
lot more later on in the story. Now, at this
first establishment of it, I feel like we don't see
it quite as much.

Speaker 3 (02:00:38):
Oh man, I have three different One of the things
is that, as Dumbledore always says, Harry is stronger in
some ways because he has an intact soul. So yeah,
when the two of them are fighting, you know, one
on one, as they did at the end of Goblet
of Fire, then yeah, Harry does have that advantage, and

(02:01:02):
you it helps me to think, what is the allegory
that this is trying to point to. The allegory is
what if there is a kid who has been really
hurt by a mass murderer who's killed his family and
is still coming after him, and the people who are
trying to raise this teenager want him to be able

(02:01:25):
to hold onto a sense of self and say, you
don't have to become your torturer. You know that person
has shaped your life, has molded you, has made you.
And they might want to say, don't you hate me,
don't you want to become just like me? Maybe you
are me, maybe you're alike, You don't really have yourself,
You're me. I made you. And the people on Harry's

(02:01:46):
side are trying to say you are you. There's a
you that was there before him and that's going to
be there after him that he cannot touch. But it's
very difficult because he has been scarred for life by
this guy who has not let up. So if you
think of what it is that Dumbledore and even Snape

(02:02:07):
are trying to do on Harry's side, is don't give
into that to the torturer trying to say, you have
no self, you can't resist me. You are mine, You're
my property, like you don't want to lose the kid.

Speaker 2 (02:02:24):
Well, I mean that is that why Snape is asking
the question, like, hey, does this stuff make you feel special?

Speaker 4 (02:02:30):
Like?

Speaker 2 (02:02:30):
Is that? Why is he trying to like gage to
that kind of stuff?

Speaker 3 (02:02:36):
Snape is saying that for a number of reasons. One
of those one of the reasons Snape is saying that
is he has to find out if Harry has the
element that all death theaters have, which is a natural
human desire to feel important, to feel like, ooh, you
know that important person noticed me, because that's how Baltimore

(02:02:58):
gets them, That's how he gets his that theaters is
he makes him feel special. And Snape is trying to
find out do you have that to Potter, And what
he finds out when he asks that is no, Harry
does not have that. He he has an immunity to that.

Speaker 2 (02:03:15):
But as a SPA shouldn't. The last four years as
a should in the last four years of Harry's interactions
across the board points Snape to the direction of like,
this kid doesn't want to be special. Yes, he doesn't
want to be important. He runs from it at all.
At every chance that he gets, he gets he gets

(02:03:37):
pulled into these things. And like, I just I appreciate
why Snape was asking the question. I just don't think
that it's a question that's necessary. If if a SPA
was doing in SPA stuff.

Speaker 4 (02:03:50):
I just read it as him being cruel.

Speaker 3 (02:03:52):
But Harry, no, it's not that it's never that well, no,
he his cruelty doesn't come up in these situations. His
cruelty is something that we have seen beforehand, so that
we understand just how difficult it is for somebody of

(02:04:13):
that ill temper to actually rise above and become like
a normal, good human. But in this case, no, Harry,
even though you know, up till year four, Harry has
demonstrated that he doesn't want to be special. That's one
of Snape's that's snapes first and enduring weird misperception about

(02:04:35):
Harry is that Harry wants to be a star, and
Snape has zero reason to believe that. But from the
first day, you know, our new celebrity, Like what that's
pure projection from Snape. But the other thing that's new
is that Harry having this vision just saved mister Wesley's life.
So Baltimore might be onto something. Might you know, if

(02:04:57):
Harry is usually immune to feeling like his special connection
makes him, you know, sets him apart, Well, this, you know,
this could change Harry's mind for real, you know, And
Harry does have that thought, like, well, isn't it useful
the Weasleys will be orphans? I remember that. It's very

(02:05:17):
much Yeah, it's very much of the moment. Because Snape
knows perfectly well, that Voldemort has completely accelerated his attempt
to try to hit Harry and reach Harry and have
access between Harry and Baltimore that nobody else has. And
in the story, in the the structure of this chapter,

(02:05:39):
that question is super beautiful and important because that's when Harry.
That's one of those moments that you guys were talking
about when Harry says the perfect thing instead of thinking
about it later, where he just it just comes right
at him. Oh No, that's not my job. That's your job,
isn't it. And that is such a record scratch. That's

(02:06:04):
that is such a huge moment in this series because
you think Harry thinks, I certainly thought probably a lot
of readers think he's going to get the punishment of
his life for that.

Speaker 4 (02:06:18):
He stepped at it again, and.

Speaker 3 (02:06:20):
It's totally it's totally the opposite. He totally does not
get in trouble for that. Snape. We see Snape thinking
for a really long time before he answers and then
he says the safe answer for once, it's safe to

(02:06:40):
tell the absolute truth. Yes, Potter, that is my job, Pottery.
Every single story that Snape is trying to maintain this
truth is allowable in all of those timelines. It's one
of the few moments that Snape gets to be his
true self. He can stop hiding his agenda, and he

(02:07:05):
is satisfied. He's happy because he has been seen. And
it's really stressful to never be seen as a person,
especially when you are working as hard as Snape is
for no thanks. And when you think that the whole volume,
Dumbledore has been telling everybody don't tell Harry anything, and

(02:07:27):
you think, can Dumbledore have possibly authorized Snape to say, yes, Potter,
that is my job. Well, first of all, he's not here,
is he? I mean, that's been the point, the point
the whole time has been led Where is Dumbledore? He's
not here. But the other point is it doesn't break
any rules. Harry does know. This is Snape's job. So

(02:07:50):
Snape makes a decision here. And the really weird, unexpected,
miraculous thing here is that this is the first time
this whole school year that an adult is giving Harry
a real answer. This is the first time that an

(02:08:11):
adult is telling Harry that's my job. What if that's
Snape's job, If it's not Harry's job to figure out
what the dark Lord is telling his followers, then what's
Harry's job? If Snape is doing that job, then Harry's
job is what it's to be a kid. Not a
single adult has given that to Harry. This entire year,
Harry has been forced to save Dudley for the de Mentors.

(02:08:34):
He's been forced to face down the entire wizing. He's
been forced to take all of Dumbledore's orders without a
single question. He has to take on umbrage by himself.
He doesn't even tell Hermione what I'm just doing. This
is the first time somebody's saying that's my job. I'm
a grown up. I'm taking on something dangerous, so you,

(02:08:54):
fifteen year old Harry Potter don't have to. And he's
telling Harry the complete truth about it. And this moment
where Snape is being seen, what he's being seen for
is that Harry has seen his true calling is espionage.
That is why Snape is such a terrible teacher and

(02:09:15):
yet puts enormous effort into being a teacher. It's this
is his truth. Harry has recognized it, he has called
it out. Snape has confirmed it. Harry has been trusted
with the truth. He has been not kindly but truly
been supported that gives Harry enough emotional stability so that

(02:09:37):
the next time, right after, when Snape goes in and
attacks in with legitimacy again, he has the security to
remain present in his mind and cast a protago that
can fight back against the legitimacy attack. And the point
about Harry being able to see Snape, the point that

(02:09:57):
makes it so dangerous for Snape that Voldemort can be
in Harry's mind looking at Snape, seeing things that Waldemort
can't understand about Snape. The point is that Harry has
his mother's eyes. No one can see Snape but Lily
and now Harry. This is super dangerous for Snape.

Speaker 4 (02:10:17):
Ruh, I didn't think about.

Speaker 1 (02:10:20):
That very interesting, And I also, just as a lesser note,
I think it's an interesting way to word it because
I know you brought up the fact that he asked
this question of like do you feel proud of this connection,
and how other people might feel proud of that connection,
and the fact that they're in a sense there's a
reason to question it. Again. The most unexpected people get

(02:10:44):
caught up in cults all the time. No one ever
suspects certain people, So the fact that he's checking in
I think makes sense to me because he was caught
up and even his answer here of saying like, yes,
it is my job, because I was caught up in
this nonsense. So I think it makes sense that he
would ask him again at this point just because like

(02:11:06):
he could get caught up. And he even shows that
capability in Deathly Hollows. He gets caught up in the
and it's scary. It's a very scary chapter where he yeah, yeah,
there's a there's a reason for people checking in about
like cult mentality kind of stuff, because it sneaks up
on you. I really love the theory of like Tom

(02:11:29):
watching and I don't know, I feel like it's giving
almost too much credit to Tom and his control of
the connection that he would be able to look in
at these these meetings. But also there's always the possibility
of it. He could always like just not be telling
Snape that he's trying to do it. So there's there's
so many there's so many different layers of what could

(02:11:51):
be going on.

Speaker 2 (02:11:52):
I think it's incredible he could also just not be
trying to do it. Harry's not trying to get into
his mind either. No, we know that Harry's Harry's mind
is weakest at these points. I assume that Voldemort sleeps
if he is, like what if it's just doing it reverse.
Harry's mind is being pricked, he's being upset, he's he's

(02:12:14):
all over the place. He is he is, he can
be an emotional erect during these meetings. And if Voldemort,
I don't know, is having a dream about Bellatrix for
instances and then all of a sudden, now you're staring
at Snape.

Speaker 4 (02:12:34):
Is she like, is she gonna be a snake charm
around going to refute it?

Speaker 1 (02:12:39):
You shim you do? You do where your heart go,
where your heart leads you.

Speaker 2 (02:12:44):
So I mean we're gone, Yeah, go ahead, Lourie.

Speaker 3 (02:12:50):
We're gonna see a couple of pages later on that. No,
Baltimore is doing it on purpose. Also, I think that
every time Harry's scar is prickling, it's because valdemor what
is in his head.

Speaker 1 (02:13:02):
It's a possibility. I won't say that, it's yes, why not?

Speaker 4 (02:13:08):
Yeah, you said, uh, Laurie, but do you praised him?
He even like went as far as to praise him
for using this shield charm?

Speaker 3 (02:13:16):
I love that. Yeah, Yeah, when when Snape. Let's see
what does we got to find this moment because it's
one of two times that Snape ever praises Harry, so
we have to know what's he saying. Well, Potter, that
was certainly an improvement. I don't remember telling you to

(02:13:37):
use a shield charm, but there's no doubt that it
was effective. That's a compliment. Oh my god, what the he?

Speaker 1 (02:13:45):
I never that with his full chest.

Speaker 4 (02:13:48):
Yeah, I never remembered Snape ever praising Harry like in
a real way, like sarcastically.

Speaker 3 (02:13:54):
Right, Harry. Harry thinks Snape is about to punish him.

Speaker 4 (02:13:58):
That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (02:13:59):
Yeah, no he doesn't. He doesn't get punished, He only
gets praised. He has just seen Snape's really vulnerable, not
very noble, dignified memories. Snape doesn't care. He he doesn't
even think about that. He's just reinforcing the successful thing

(02:14:21):
that Harry has done. And this disproves that. Yeah, this
proves that. Later on when he tells Boltimore, oh, Harry
Potter has no skills, He's completely ordinary, he is lying.
He knows that Harry has aptitude and defense against the
dark arts that you rarely see. And you know this
is this is how they talk when they're actually in

(02:14:44):
a lesson together. And you know, this is the only
way that Snape can reinforce Harry, like whatever you just did,
do more of that.

Speaker 1 (02:14:53):
It's good to see them actually connecting. Like Harry thinking
about how like the crying little boy that he saw,
it's discarning to see that he's finally connecting with Snape
in a certain way.

Speaker 3 (02:15:05):
That's super dangerous for Snape because that is that's like
the very beginnings, the baby baby whisperings of possible empathy
that Harry might have for this terrible human being, and
that that's dangerous. And also it's we're capturing the moment
just that any fifteen year old changes into being mature

(02:15:28):
enough to see the humanity of an authority figure. It's
it's kind. I mean, that's beautiful even under these circumstances.
Oh wow, look at Harry growing up right in front
of us.

Speaker 2 (02:15:37):
Yeah, Laurie, you had made mention of of Harry seeing
Snape in this very vulnerable position. But like we also
know that Snape is putting his most vulnerable pieces inside
the pen seve right, So like I know later on,
whenever Harry sees sees the the memory of James bullet

(02:15:59):
name and flying them upside down and that kind of stuff.
Is that that's at a later that's not that's not here,
that's at a later point than this, right right, So
I wonder, I wonder if there's a chance of, like,
you know, the the memory that Harry sees here is
of a girl laughing at Snape, as of a young

(02:16:22):
Snape being kind of bucked off of a broom, and
that kind of stuff. So I wonder if what's in
the pen sieve here in this chapter is just Snape,
Voldemort and Dumbledore conversation so that nobody can see, and
then later on the embarrassing things get added in to
the pen sieve so that they can't see anymore. I mean,

(02:16:43):
it doesn't matter in the context of what we're talking about,
but like, I like the idea of like Snape hiding
the most important information and then here something kind of
embarrassing happening and being like, all right, I'm dumping all
this that has to do with your family too.

Speaker 3 (02:16:58):
Okay, I heard about one out of every five words
that you said, So I'm gonna just take a guess
and answer as best as I can. We see the
three memories that Snape puts into de pensive Later in
The Prince's Tale, we see exactly which three he has taken,
and they those are the three where if Voldemort saw them,

(02:17:20):
Voldemort would understand Snape's true loyalties and how Snape has
been including Voldemort. And the purpose of the memories that
Harry sees in this scene where Snape is not very
dignified is to show that Snape truly, honestly has nothing
to hide. He really isn't self conscious around Harry. He's

(02:17:42):
not trying to look impressive in front of Harry. He
does not care what Harry sees. He cares what Voldemort sees.

Speaker 1 (02:17:49):
Okay, interesting, never thought about it.

Speaker 3 (02:17:52):
I mean really, if I were Snape and a fifteen
year old saw those memories of me, I would be mad.
I would be defensive. Doesn't even care.

Speaker 4 (02:18:01):
Like, boy, get out of there. What you're looking at.
Let's private, you know, I take some maturity just to
be like you said, to be Either that that he
did he did something successfully. I think that's really cool.

Speaker 3 (02:18:14):
Either that or you have perspective because things are really
that bad, because I mean it's not Snape is not
winning any prizes. For maturity ever, right, I mean that's.

Speaker 1 (02:18:26):
Not what's going one time, right, because he's mature enough
to know that that those memories don't matter. I think
he has perspective on this specifically, right, he has like
a perspective.

Speaker 3 (02:18:36):
He's scared.

Speaker 1 (02:18:37):
Yeah, it's got every right to be.

Speaker 2 (02:18:39):
Yeah, sorry, Laura, I was looking at I had forgotten
that the the scene after Snape and James's a w
l's I forgot that that was in the Princess Tale.

Speaker 4 (02:18:51):
So thank you, shedah one to know.

Speaker 3 (02:18:56):
Well in the Prince's Tale, Harry just doesn't bothered with
that memory. He's like, oh god, this one, uh all right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:19:04):
All right, if we're being perfectly honest. I looked it
up and then I went, well, I didn't remember because
Harry didn't even act get through it. It's just it's
just us the word mug blood at the end. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:19:16):
So now that now that Harry has successfully pushed Snape
out of his mind and even further legitimized snape and
gotten only praised for it and not punished at all. Yeah,
and is therefore now thoroughly confused. Then they try again,

(02:19:41):
and then this passage I love. He was hurtling along
the corridor toward the Department of Mysteries. He was moving
so fast he was going to collide with it. That
is Voldemort being clumsy. Voldemort is all excited, like, oh good,
Snape is there to help a lot. I really really
really want Harry Potter to be interested in this door.

(02:20:02):
And he's rushing Harry so much. Harry's practically tripping. And
this is right after Harry read Snape's mind. Uh this
is anyway, That's what indicates to me that Voldemort is
intentionally doing this. I and, yeah, go ahead, I.

Speaker 1 (02:20:22):
Read it differently, which is to the surprise of no one.
But I actually think that you're almost giving Tom too
much credit here in how much control he's able to have.
I think there's a possibility he definitely was there and
he saw everything that was happening. I think that perhaps
he did consciously or subconsciously jump in and watch a

(02:20:43):
little bit. I think that there's there's a chance that
he was preparing this moment, just for any moment where
Harry's mind was susceptible to it, and maybe it had
been like a time when he had wanted him to
be asleep. That's when he had assumed it was going
to be. It reads to me a little bit unprepared
as well, Like when I initially read this again in

(02:21:05):
the reread, it actually like coming from a bit of
an animation background, this read to me like your pre
render to an actual render, like you're rushing through it
to make sure you hit the beats. You haven't done
the actual timing to it yet, so your key frames
are all off. Everything's moving too fast. He's in the
moment right now of trying to prepare that nice little

(02:21:26):
animation for when Harry goes goes to sleep later on,
but like right now he was trying to get it together.
It happened too quickly. Harry tapped into it right when
Snape was doing their thing, the lesson was going on.
It seems like an accident to me, because nothing, it
doesn't seem like the full production. It doesn't have it
doesn't all have all the goods and the razmataz you know.

Speaker 3 (02:21:49):
Yeah, yeah, he's he's learning on the.

Speaker 1 (02:21:51):
Job, Tom.

Speaker 4 (02:21:55):
It feels so bad and they're putting him on the
spot here.

Speaker 3 (02:22:00):
I mean, but you know this is better, Like something's happening.
You know, he's not unhappy about it. Snape is very
unhappy about it. Snape is furious.

Speaker 2 (02:22:13):
Yeah, Harry Potter, Harry calls that out of like it
seems he's never seen Snape this angry and much more
angry than he was a few minutes ago whenever he
saw it to his own memory. And I think that
that can be fear. I think that because there's so
many unknowns about this connection that I think that Snape
is a bit fearful about whether or not Voldemort is

(02:22:35):
seeing what's happening right here and seeing these lessons yeah
taking place.

Speaker 3 (02:22:41):
So yes, Snape is angrier. Explain yourself, you are not
working hard enough. He's angrier than when Harry saw his
own memories. That's something that's not personal. There's something that
Snape really cares about that's happening.

Speaker 4 (02:22:57):
Here and like, and you say that because he knows
that Valdemort is using the connection and that's why he's
it's not personal. He's like, oh my gosh, he's using
this connection, you idiot? You know? Is that why you
say that?

Speaker 3 (02:23:12):
I think so. And because Snape has this double confirmation.
He is in Harry's head and he sees this, and
he also has his own dark mark connection so that
he knows that Voldemort is really into this, so he knows,
you know, the stakes are being raised. And meanwhile, this

(02:23:35):
fifteen year old, he's just Snape, is standing. They're watching
it just happen to Harry, and that must be a
really terrifying position to true.

Speaker 1 (02:23:47):
I have a separate theory, which I think that will
not be very popular. And I understand this.

Speaker 4 (02:23:54):
I okay, I.

Speaker 1 (02:23:56):
Already spoke about how I don't really think that the
Dark Marks have the same kind of connection as the
as the Scar connection, but also it could be read
either way because it's so nebulous and how much time,
how much control Tom wants to have in this situation.
I think that my I feel like Snape has a

(02:24:17):
foot in both worlds, and he knows the world that
should win morally. I feel like his his loyalties, he
wants them so strongly to like to be a good person,
to side with Dumbledore completely, but he feels more at home,
perhaps with the Death Eaters, because Tom treats him like

(02:24:38):
he's an asset. Tom treats him like he's as about
as close to a friend as you could possibly have
with Tom, which is saying something I feel like there
is a moment earlier on and it might be acting
on Snape's part, but it fooled me in this situation
where he says, yes, that's my job and we discussed

(02:24:59):
that a but that could also be him in a
sense being like, yes, it is my job. He does
trust me that much. I am his right hand, I
am bold, he's bestie in a certain sense.

Speaker 4 (02:25:11):
Oh I remember now and this that him said, because.

Speaker 1 (02:25:14):
Hearing this again and being like oh oh no, no no, no, no, no,
no no no, no, no no, you're not Actually he's
not supposed to be winning. Stop that, stop that right now, Like,
don't let him do that. So like half of like
there's a part of his heart that's like Tom actually
trust Like these people respect me. They treat me with
all of the respect that the side of the Order

(02:25:36):
of Phoenix does not, and it kills me. And I'm
happy to be there because they treat me without respect.
But in a sense he knows that they shouldn't be
winning because morally they're reprehensible, they're reprobates, like they're not
great people. So he's like, I feel like this is
almost a moment of him pulling back and being like, no,

(02:25:56):
you should not be letting that happen. Even if I'm
to be Voldi's bestie, you shouldn't be letting that happen.

Speaker 3 (02:26:03):
Oh God, I wish I had heard. I wish I
had heard most of it. I got bits of it.

Speaker 1 (02:26:11):
Oh, you are the vast majority of it in my book.

Speaker 3 (02:26:14):
I mean, yeah, what we do know when Snape asks
why do you feel important? Potter? Does it make you
feel special? We do know that Snape absolutely has that vulnerability.
That's one of his biggest weak spots. And that's just
the truth about him. And yeah, he is darn proud

(02:26:34):
of having worked his way up from nothing and gotten
his promotions. Yeah, although the problem with feeling secure and
appreciated within the Death Leaters and by Boltimore is that
you know that there's an expiration date on it. Yes,
you know that, you know you'll be his favorite as
long as you're his favorite, and then at some point
he's just going to decide that you're next. So there's

(02:26:57):
a limit to hell to how great that can feel.
But meanwhile, Snape is you know, he's like counting his
awards and everything.

Speaker 2 (02:27:08):
Yeah, I mean that that's why Snape has the problem
with Dumbledore is that, you know, we see we see
Snape's jealousy that Harry is giving some more information than
what Snake does and deathly hallowed No Halfwood Prince, well, yeah,
that's that scene has really happened during the time period

(02:27:29):
of Halfwood Prince where he's like, you're telling that you're
telling a teenager more than you're telling me, and Dumbledore
his response is, well, yeah, this teenager isn't that the
right hand or on the right arm of Voltimore, But
that teenager is also in a worse position because yes,
Snape is at the right hand of Voldemort, but Harry

(02:27:51):
is in Baltimore's head literally, Like I mean, I don't
know's I do it. I do agree that he's getting
a lot more information where he's getting a lot more
credit from the Death Theater side than he is and
he ever would from the Order of the Phoenix side.
But I do think that's by design. I think that
Voltimort is using some of that as as a as

(02:28:13):
a persuading method of keeping Snape here.

Speaker 1 (02:28:17):
It would make sense.

Speaker 2 (02:28:18):
Ye. Now, really the scene ends. I wish I wish
so much that we had the rest of this because
of how honest. Snape has been with Harry just prior
to this. But the the line, Harry goes, well, can
I ask you a question? Why do you call him
the dark Lord? I thought only death theaters did that,

(02:28:39):
and Snape goes to answer. Snake gets angry and he
goes to answer. But because Snape has been so was
so honest about Yeah, that's my job. I want this
answer so bad because because in my head the answer is, well, parter,
I am a death theater. What else am I supposed
to call him?

Speaker 4 (02:28:57):
You know?

Speaker 2 (02:28:59):
You know that, you know I have a death dark mark.
You know who I am. That's why I don't know.
I really want the.

Speaker 1 (02:29:08):
Immediately.

Speaker 2 (02:29:09):
I don't care about ker Larney at all. I could
cut all the end of this and just get the
rest of this scene. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:29:19):
I love that particular moment that you just called out
when I I've given talks about Snape where I read
that passage and everyone is completely on the answer their seats,
you know, wanting the answer to that question. Because Harry's
question is the right question, that's exactly right, and the
Harry and Snape are genuinely communicating with each other, and

(02:29:43):
the fact that Snape opens his mouth to give an answer,
and then a scream cuts the tension. And you know
when we hear the scream, you know, I put down
the paper and I look at the audience and say,
this author is really good, isn't she?

Speaker 2 (02:29:57):
Yeah? Because also one of the few times in history
that a stream cut the tension.

Speaker 4 (02:30:04):
Oh right, like literally a couple of paragraphs earlier.

Speaker 1 (02:30:09):
No, do you guys think? Okay? The answer is there's
a lot of different answers to why he's using the
dark Lord name. So I what are your what are
your opinions? I'm readers feel free to readers, right, listeners
feel free to clock in about this too. What is
your opinion as to why he uses the name?

Speaker 2 (02:30:27):
Can I go first? My my personal thought is that
they use something similar to the taboo that we see
in Deathly Hallows to where if you have a dark mark,
you are forced to call him the dark Lord, and
if you don't, he knows, and he will you'll be
punished for it.

Speaker 4 (02:30:44):
Wouldn't it be just as respectful to call him Lord Voldemort?

Speaker 1 (02:30:47):
Though, No, because that's the name of a god. You
don't take that, you don't you don't speak that name. Oh,
that's my opinion anyway, I literally.

Speaker 4 (02:30:57):
Have it on my wrists. Can you see?

Speaker 2 (02:31:00):
Yeah, it'd be funny if it was Lordmore No.

Speaker 4 (02:31:05):
I was, I can't.

Speaker 1 (02:31:06):
I don't know how to show expecting that for a second,
I was gonna.

Speaker 4 (02:31:09):
Be like, no, I have have I have his wand
over there, I'd transcribe it for you on the screen. No,
I don't know. I just thought, like I don't know,
I thought that was still respectful enough to be like,
not a bad thing to call him. You know, he
likes it. He made it up himself, like we don't

(02:31:29):
call him Tom. I know, I know, like Snape's not
calling him Tom, like he's respectfully I'm the dog lord.
Why don't you call him Lord Voldemort. It's there's not
the taboo on it yet. So I mean, I think
it would be just as respectful and just as I

(02:31:51):
don't know, I think he does it in my opinion
at a habit. I'm just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:31:57):
That is the most human answer if I'm just.

Speaker 4 (02:32:00):
That's what I call him. I don't know, that's his name,
like you calling him Tom, I don't know that's his name.
That's what I call him.

Speaker 3 (02:32:08):
It also keeps it keeps the person out of your head.
If you say something that's like a euphemism, you know,
saying something that's a beautiful compliment, then that's different from
saying you know, like we see with the Illuminator later
when they say Ron's name, Saying the name of a

(02:32:30):
person crystallizes them in your emotions more. They have more
of a connection to you. This is it's just a
general way of feeling more connected to people that Voltimore
keeps using, like later on when he does use the taboo. Oh,
anyone who feels like there might equal enough to just
throw my name around is someone who's going to be
an enemy. That saying the dark Lord is the opposite

(02:32:51):
of that. It's like putting all this respect into the conversation,
into your mentality. It's a way to protect yourself so
that if the boss is going around looking for the
unfaithful to punish, that you scan as a faithful person.

Speaker 1 (02:33:07):
I think that tracks my personal opinion from how I
read Snape is that he calls Tom the dark Lord
because he believes it he in his mind as far
as I can tell in the text, and what what
I've interpreted is that like he does believe that Tom
is extremely powerful and is extremely controlling and has the

(02:33:29):
ability to do the changes that he says he's going
to do, but he also knows that that is wrong
and he needs to be stopped. And that's what makes
him all the more courageous for doing this. It's like,
I believe you when you say you are the Lord,
you are the dark Lord, but also I'm going to
stand here in your way, and that's that's so courageous

(02:33:49):
to me. That's that is another level of courage of fortitude.

Speaker 2 (02:33:55):
Well, quite honestly, I think that Snape and Baltimore has
gotten a lot of that this chapter. For going back
and forth, we also do need to remember that dolorous
umbrage is also the worst. She is so much maybe
not the worst, but the worst here, the worst in
this general radius around Harry, the worst.

Speaker 1 (02:34:21):
We know the professor within a five mile radio Yes,
that's yeah, there.

Speaker 2 (02:34:26):
We know. Now we we the stream that we heard,
we go out to investigate that, and that is Professor
Trelawney being sacked, relieved of her duties as Divination professor.
And behind that is obviously the Lori's umbrage that has
been setting this up for quite a while Haggard is
going to be next. But we get to see this

(02:34:48):
scene and this power struggle and this and this, this
show of power from Dumbledore of hey, I still have
some control over the school.

Speaker 1 (02:34:57):
Here is anybody else like so pissed at how they
this in the movie?

Speaker 4 (02:35:01):
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (02:35:04):
Movie they have what there's a dumble Doore runs in
and is like really pissed during the movie, and there's
a there's a lot of Dumbledore choices that happen that
people are opposed to. If I'm being honest with you,
I actually don't really care about the like the meme,

(02:35:28):
I don't really give too much of a crap about that.
It's fine you want to make that change. By the way,
this is a this is a pumpkin. I'm holding a pumpkin.
If anybody is wondering, I'm gesturing with a plushy everyone
who's listening, If they want to make that change, that's okay.
But if when we see it here he's like showing
so much control over the scene despite kind of losing

(02:35:50):
a bit of control, and so much confidence. He's exuding
confidence that having him react in the way he did
in the movie always kills me. A little bit. I'm like,
why he had so much confidence in the book. He
was so calm, he was so put together, like he
countered immediately.

Speaker 2 (02:36:08):
Well, the way that you described the movie happening sounds
like there wasn't a plan. But the way that the
book plays out is that Dumbledore knew this was gonna happen.
Dumbledore McGonagall had already figured out. Okay, hey, by the way,
because you didn't know, Sybil's not doing a great job.
She's not a good like divination professor regardless, but like

(02:36:30):
so she's already going to be fired. Dumbledore has to
have a plan, and that's what this whole scene reads
as is, listen, hey, Minerva, you need to be ready
for when this happens to be able to step in
and comfort Sybil, and then I will step in and
have to go up against umbrage, because I mean, there

(02:36:51):
there's obviously a plan because Forrenzi is just standing out back.

Speaker 1 (02:36:55):
He's ready for the dramatic entrance. Yeah, so there can
I push back against you for a second thought.

Speaker 2 (02:37:03):
Thank you for asking, though, Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:37:08):
I know that the general agreement is that Trelawny is
a terrible devnation. I actually I push back against that
because I think that she's a terrible professor. But devination
is not the reason a lot of I feel like
a lot of people, especially within the books, tend to
be like Trelawney's terrible because devnation is terrible. I don't

(02:37:30):
believe that. I'm a Tarot card enthusiast. I love reading
the cards. I feel like devnation is a really cool
subject and they should have considered it a little bit
more strongly and it should have been a cooler part
of the books. But whatever, That's just my opinion. But
the reason why Trelawny is not a good teacher is
because she keeps teaching that it's only for certain people,

(02:37:50):
Like that is a surefire away to kill your entire course, Like,
how dare you do that to kids? Just just let
everyone be a part of the life.

Speaker 2 (02:38:00):
I agree. I agree with you. When I said it,
in the back of my head, I was like, you
could go on to this tangent, but I didn't know
that it was necessary. It's necessary, as we can now
see it isn't. I don't think that she is a
terrible professor. I think that she I think that she

(02:38:22):
could teach the subject in a way that makes sense
and in a way that is applicable. But I think
that she is so self conscious about not actually being
a seer. No, but she is one, but she doesn't
know that. She doesn't know that she has had the
like she yeah, she thinks that she is because of

(02:38:44):
all this, but like the two prophecies that we know
that she has made.

Speaker 3 (02:38:47):
That were correct, that were correct, but she doesn't know that.

Speaker 4 (02:38:52):
She's not her when she gives them. She isn't conscious
when she gives those prophecies and doesn't know what she did,
and nobody takes the town to be like, hey, look.

Speaker 7 (02:39:03):
At you you just did a prophecy. Let's see if
this actually PANSI yeah, yeah, exactly. But nobody does that,
and so she has no memory of that whatsoever. But
we as the reader know and can see later on.
But she's never been like no, I don't think anybody's
ever been like, look, hey, we had this prophecy that
you gave us, and then holy cow, like two books

(02:39:24):
later it actually came true, like look at you go.

Speaker 4 (02:39:29):
She's just the butt of a joke.

Speaker 1 (02:39:30):
I'm I'm of the opinion that even even Trelawne's like
BS predictions like when she's like, you were born in
the winter, will you not? Oh my goodness, I'm so mystical.
She's reading Tom. Tom is right there on his head,
like she's just reading Tom. So I'm of the opinion
that like, even when she's giving those little bs prophecies,

(02:39:50):
they are real prophecies, like even the crazy ones. And
I'd love to do it. Like, I can't back up
this theory everybody. So if you're gonna come at me
in the comments like Grace, you're insane, I totally get it.
And you can do that if you'd like. But I
haven't done a Trelawney specific reread. Maybe I will next time.
But I my my theory is that like they all

(02:40:10):
hold water. But I don't know that for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:40:14):
But what what makes her a poor professor is that
she she wants so badly for people to look at
her in this ethereal.

Speaker 4 (02:40:25):
Like lavender brown like that, Yeah, the ones that are
crying in the background as they're dragging her.

Speaker 1 (02:40:35):
I would probably be one of those people. But also
like I know me, okay, I know my limitations. I'd
probably be one of those people, not.

Speaker 4 (02:40:44):
For but also like does she just and I don't know,
I don't remember this is probably stated, But does she
just get this position because of her her lineage?

Speaker 2 (02:40:56):
No, she got it because Dumbledore was trying to protect her.

Speaker 4 (02:41:00):
Yeah, well then never mind. I was gonna say she
ain't go through teaching, like she didn't get any training
on how to teach this anyway, Like she just making
it up off the seat of her pants. I guess
I was thinking it was because of her lineage, and
so now she's got to prove.

Speaker 3 (02:41:14):
Yeah. Dumbledore says later that she's not aware of the
correct predictions, and he says, and I think it would
be unwise to enlighten her. So it's not that nobody
has bothered. He's actively determined that she doesn't have the
stability to handle her gift. She's forgotten, she'll make herself unsafe.

Speaker 1 (02:41:41):
This is a this is another executive decision. Pretty much,
there's a lot of harm and he doesn't even realize it.

Speaker 4 (02:41:49):
But also she hadn't been she's not a teacher, so
there's that.

Speaker 2 (02:41:53):
Yeah. So like throughout the scene, like I said earlier,
I love seeing that like it is a planned out
event that's happening here. Uh, there's already a replacement. Yeah,
one of the one of the like underrated like funny
lines that the Dumbledore says, is here for me. Uh,
whenever he's talking to Umbrage about like, well you can

(02:42:17):
like you can fire, like you can sack my professors,
but like you can't ban them from the you know,
from the castle, and Umbradge is saying something about like replacement,
and then the Dumbledore says, well, on this occasion, I
have been successful, like pointing it like back in her
face of like you're only here because I couldn't find
somebody to do your job right now, which, like I

(02:42:38):
don't know how much the Ministry would have would have
stepped in if he had a replacement in mind, and
then the Ministry was still like half attacking, so he
may have just relented one eventually anyway on Umbradge. But
I just love I just love that coming back to
her of like you're only here because I couldn't find
somebody either, So yeah, I found somebody.

Speaker 1 (02:43:00):
What's your opinion on Trelawney.

Speaker 3 (02:43:02):
I think most of the successful predictions she makes are
because if you're vague enough, you can make them fit,
and that humans want to see conspiracies, and I think
She's very careful to be vague like that, because later on,
when Harry mentions to her the prediction that he that

(02:43:24):
she gives about Wormtail going back to Voltemore, she's offended
and she says, I certainly would never have predicted something
as outlandish as that, which is a really funny way
of her telling on herself, like, yes, she's completely unaware
of her true gift, and yes she knows that she's bullshit,
but what she's revealing is that she has a really

(02:43:47):
specific strategy for it, and she has professional pride in
pointing out to Harry that what he just suggested that
doesn't that's not in her professional CoA. She wouldn't have
done that. So she has a method.

Speaker 4 (02:44:02):
To go back to earlier in the conversation where we
were having where the teachers gave them house points and
such and gave them the map the mice up against him.
It says that Trelawney changed her prediction about Harry dying
at the end of the year to him like living
a long, happy, prosperous life. And it's like, okay, but

(02:44:23):
is that another one of those where she just gave
up an obscure thing because we know that he does
die because his connection dies eventually. But then we also
know that he lives a long and happy and successful life.
So like, is that another one of those vague predictions
that actually comes to be true or is she just

(02:44:44):
doing that for.

Speaker 2 (02:44:46):
A blonde squirrel found another?

Speaker 4 (02:44:48):
She found Tzuto. She said he died and then he didn't.

Speaker 2 (02:44:51):
That's pretty good, pretty good, that's good luck. Okay, all right.

Speaker 3 (02:44:58):
She does teach them divination in terms of history and
different methods. When you leave her class you do actually
have some grounding in the subject. It's the act that
is embarrassing that, you know. She creates a division among
her students between people who believe and people who are

(02:45:19):
embarrassed by the act. And that's, you know, something that
if she were a better teacher, wouldn't be happening. But
they do leave her classroom with some knowledge of divination,
different methods, different histories.

Speaker 2 (02:45:32):
I have a.

Speaker 1 (02:45:32):
Personal opinion of the people who like really hate divination.
Like you hear about how McGonagall is very much against
divination and how Dumbledore doesn't put much stock into it.
In general, my general opinion is the people that you
find in Harry Potter who don't like divination are those
that don't like introspection, because most of the methods that

(02:45:53):
you find of divination are introspective methods, Like you're trying
to look at things that are within yourself and how
that might lead you down a path in the future.
So when I'm reading the Tarot cards, I don't necessarily
read the future. I will try to read where possibilities
might lead you should you choose a certain path. So
I whether or not I believe like like this, this

(02:46:15):
is the thing. I don't think that I have the
power to predict anything, but the cards will sometimes come
up with some eerie connections, and whether or not, like
it's all comes down to how you read it. And
you're right in a sense in saying that things are
general enough as to wear a thing, and it can
do with anything in your life.

Speaker 2 (02:46:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (02:46:33):
All the cards are supposed to be aspects of someone's life,
but the fact that certain ones come up and force
you to look within that is something that makes people.
Some people deeply uncomfortable, and I find that whenever we
find people in the series that buck up against that,
it's usually people that don't want to look in the mirror.

Speaker 3 (02:46:51):
You know, Well, one thing about what they might find there. Yeah,
one thing about what this series believes about divination. There
is definitely a portrayal of Trelawney as kind of a
fake and it's kind of laughable. But when it comes
down to it, the series really calls heavily upon the
power of prophecy, and you know, whether or not it

(02:47:15):
predicts the future, you know, obviously what's important about the
prophecies is what you make of them. But they're important
and they that draws on a power that is not
something that we can explain scientifically, that maybe greater than
we are. And that's something that this series really respects.
When you look at what the series does. It Actually

(02:47:35):
the prophecies hold a really powerful part in the series.

Speaker 1 (02:47:39):
Because of reflection though, Like I really do believe that.

Speaker 3 (02:47:42):
What you do with it, what you make of the
thing that you heard about your faith.

Speaker 1 (02:47:48):
How much maturity you have to look at yourself about that?
That is so important.

Speaker 2 (02:47:52):
That's so true, speaking of maturity. Is it cool to
have like a government official like rule that has sack
in it? Like is that the correct term? I know
that I understand what sacked is, Like I it just
doesn't seem like it should be an official government correspondence.

Speaker 4 (02:48:12):
That the title of is called of dismissal, but they
use sack with three yeah, three times in like two paragraphs.

Speaker 1 (02:48:23):
It's in the is it that just kids like whisper
it has been?

Speaker 4 (02:48:26):
She reads the official statement from the ministry instead of
dismiss or terminate or let go. In the official Order
of dismissal, it says that I have the authority to
sack any blah blah blah, and then I sacked you,
and you sack and sack, and it says it over

(02:48:47):
and over again, and it's like, why.

Speaker 2 (02:48:53):
The the the narration says, well, it's not the narration
what UMBERD says. Under the terms of education fill the
creer number twenty three. The High Inquisitor of Hogwarts has
the power to inspect, placed upon probation, and sack any
teacher she feels is not performing up to the standard
required by the Ministry of Yeah, it's just it's just

(02:49:13):
it's just a stupid little thing.

Speaker 4 (02:49:18):
Like geez, it's a lot Why don't you just dismiss, terminate,
let her go.

Speaker 1 (02:49:24):
It sounds a lot softer too when you say it, though,
that which like what I'm gonna throw Umbridge in a sack,
throw her off the cling.

Speaker 4 (02:49:33):
That would be nice. We'd like that very much, thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:49:37):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (02:49:38):
All well, this has been a brilliant discussion. It's been enlightening,
and we have Laurie to thank for it, and also you, Catherine.
It's a wonderful having you on as well. You're a
host but also a guest here and an editor. But Laurie,
your thoughts have been brilliant. Where can listeners find more
of those those wonderful thoughts that you've got?

Speaker 3 (02:49:57):
Well, I think, Catherine, it's going to turn out to
be so us your hero having to audio edit all
of this. Thank you in advance, Sorry in advance.

Speaker 4 (02:50:06):
Ti girl, I got you so.

Speaker 1 (02:50:09):
HP after twenty twenty is the podcast that you're running, Laurie,
and laurikim dot com is where you can find a
lot of your like thoughts and blog posts. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (02:50:19):
Yep? Okay, all right, cool.

Speaker 1 (02:50:21):
And everyone please listen to HP after twenty twenty. It's
wonderful yep.

Speaker 4 (02:50:25):
And our next episode will be the chapter revisit Gobblet
of Fire chapter twenty four Rita Skeeters Ski.

Speaker 2 (02:50:33):
And if if you want to keep up with the show.
You can follow us on pretty much any social media
outlet at Elohimura MN or on Facebook at Open the Dumbledore,
and please remember to subscribe, save and share this episode
with your friends. This has been episode fifty five of
the Final one hundred. I'm Josh, I'm.

Speaker 1 (02:50:51):
Catherine, I'm Grace, and thank you for listening to episode
four fifty five of below. Maura Holkong, Hello is your
Mind and open m h m hm m hm m hm.

Speaker 4 (02:51:17):
Hm.

Speaker 8 (02:51:18):
Aloha Mora is produced by Tracy Dunstan. This episode was
edited by Catherine Lewis. Alohamra was co created by Noah
Freed and Kat Miller, and is brought to you by A.

Speaker 4 (02:51:29):
P W B d llc mm hm.

Speaker 3 (02:51:36):
M hm.

Speaker 4 (02:51:41):
Who that's audio? Is that coming here?

Speaker 2 (02:51:46):
We're at a service. Now there's uh, there's a music
playing ice cream.

Speaker 3 (02:51:50):
I think there's that's no, it's me, it's my neighborhood.

Speaker 4 (02:51:55):
I can't no, no, no.

Speaker 3 (02:51:58):
It is like thirds of what you guys are saying.
But you can hear the ice cream truck.

Speaker 4 (02:52:03):
I am so perfectly that. Now you're good. Don't talk
a lot of ice cream trucks going through though,

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