POA, 2 Revisit: St. Brutus Blah, Blah, Blah

Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
This is episode three hundred and seventyof a Lojamora from March twenty five,
twenty and twenty three. Welcome toanother episode of Lojamura, the fanom's original

(00:40):
Harry Potter book Club. I'm AshraSchelder, I'm Bianca Lunch, I'm Tracy
Dunstan, and we're so excited tohave our guest Rachel Hover here. Um,
what's your house, what's your youknow, all that jazz, all
the Harry Potter background. Um.So I'm a gryffindor Um. I like
to say I'm like a Neville likegryffindor Um. So I'm kind of a
watch from the sideline scriffen door.Very hufflepuff life though. So I got

(01:04):
into Harry Potter a little bit later, not actually later, because I was
pretty young. I was twelve.But my sister got into it when she
was really young, and I wascompletely disinterested in it because she was into
it, so I couldn't be intoit also, and so she tried to
get me to read it. Iread like the first chapter and I was

(01:25):
like, no, I'm not doingwith it down for years, but I
had seen like all of the moviesand everything, and so I guess when
I was a little bit older,my sister made us listen to the audiobooks
when we were in the car ona long road trip, and I've realized
how much better they were. Sothen I was like, okay, I'm

(01:45):
ready to give this a try.And yeah, the rest is kind of
history. Now. It's like forseries where like I just read it over
and over and over again. Butit's interesting because every time I get some
thing new out of it, Ithink of something, you know, that
I've never thought about before, froma perspective that I've never thought before.

(02:07):
And I think when you're an adult, you just look at things in a
different way than you did when youWhen I read it, like the first
time, I was twelve, soand then with a lowe more, I
had just finished a reread and theshutdown happened with COVID, and I was
like, what am I supposed todo now? Because I was shut at

(02:27):
home, and so I started fromepisode one and I just kept chugging through
it. So it took me likeabout a year, but I got caught
up. So, yeah, that'simpressive freedom change episodes. Yeah, were
you actually doing to reread with itor were you just listening to you?
I was just listening because I hadjust finished a reread, so like it

(02:51):
was all fresh in my mind,and I just like churned through it like
I I worked through it so fastbecause I had nothing else to do,
so U. I was in schoolat the time, and I had finished
my semester, so I just didn'tthing to do. UM. So that's
what I like filled my entire likebasically all of my time with UM.

(03:12):
And it was just a nice thingto be able to kind of do and
think about and UM. Like Iended up having discussions with my sister and
some other family members m who didnot care about Harry Potter as much as
I did, but UM, Imade them have discussions with me. Anyway.
So do you have a favorite characteror a favorite book. I don't
know about a favorite book. Ithink it changes I really reread. But

(03:37):
my favorite character I have like twodifferent favorite characters. M One is Nevil
because I just feel like I literallyam Nevill and I think his character arc
is so so amazing U. Andthen McGonagall is just classic. I think
her like motherly nature while still likekeeping structure is just fantastic. Those are

(03:58):
two great characters. So I lovethat you were saying how you were like,
oh, yeah, I was young, but like she was like really
young, and I was like,wow with twelve not really young, like
as someone who started these books whenI was, Oh my, how old
am I? When I was liketwenty seven. So for me, I'm
like, when people tell me thatthey were reading this when they were twelve,

(04:20):
I'm just like, and you say, even younger than that, wild
man, it felt like I hadheld out on it a long time because
I think my sister's older, andI think she started when she was like
eight or something like that, solike she tried to get me into it
really young, and I just wasn'tready for it yet. So I do
think it's cool that there are alot of people who started it right at

(04:41):
Harry's age, so it's like asthey were turning, you know, twelve
and thirteen, they were doing thesame thing. I do think that is
really cool. And I like whatyou said about the rereads because I agree
that you know, you just getsomething different every time, and you know
it depends on like where you arein your life, like Vince that have
recently happened to you and things justthings just completely they hit different And it
was like for me with Aloha Mora, I only whenever I started it.

(05:05):
I only listened to the podcast forthe first three books, and then I
was like, Okay, whenever theysaw a Goblet of Fire, I'm gonna
just like I'm gonna, I'm gonnaactually read it with them. And I
mean, it obviously took a lotlonger for me to get through it,
but it was literally what I needed, because I mean, who didn't who
hasn't like Red Harry Potter. Andthen it felt like I need more so

(05:28):
to start listening to Aloha Mora andto be able to just like listen to
all the conversations and the debates andto hear people who were thinking the same
thing that I was thinking, oreven more so, people who were thinking
the complete oppositey hear the different perspectives. I was just like I was blown
away because me and my husband readit together, so we would talk about
it, but like he would neverbe as dramatic about it as I needed

(05:48):
him to be, so like Alohamawas there for me. It would be
like we already talked about this.I'm like, I know, but I
need to hatch it out more andso Loha Moore. It was like a
god sin because I'm like, seeyou people get it, you get it.
They supplied the dramatics. Yeah yeah, ear Rachel, we're so happy

(06:09):
to have you. Um. Sotoday we're gonna be talking about Prisoner of
Azkaban chapter two, Aunt Marge's BigMistake. The original episode was episode twenty
called Errol and Hedwig Sing in aTree with hosts Noah, Cat, Caleb
and Rosie from all the way backin January thirteenth, twenty twenty three,
which when Asher you told me youwere ten maybe oh sorry twenty thirteen.

(06:31):
January thirteen, twenty thirteen. TenI was ten years old, urthwisl I
was not. I feel I'm like, it feels like so long ago.
That was a decade ago. It'sgreat. I first of all, I
just want to say that that wasa really great episode because I just love
all of those hosts so much.Um. And then I think it's funny

(06:56):
that you were staying twenty thirteen becauseI was having a conversation last night.
We were watching some movies and theywere talking about like the seventies, and
I was like, I'm always veryimpressed with people who can like differentiate between
decades. So well, like,oh, yeah, the sixties or was
this the seventiess I'm like, Iknow, like the nineties and then I
know like now, and I'm like, okay, so I was born in

(07:17):
the nineties, so you know,there's that I can't even I'm like,
even the two thousands, I'm like, all right, I remember that,
but something about twenty ten through twentynineteen, I'm like, if you ask
me to describe that in three words, I'm like, I don't even know.
I don't know I was there,but I don't know. So whenever,
So like now, I'm actually tryingto pay extra attention whenever thing has
come up from that decade because I'mlike, what was happening during that point

(07:41):
in time? It seems like everythingelse there were all these big things,
but I don't know, We'll see. It was a very trippy episode listened
to because it was like, Noah, they werell talking about stuff. That's
just like, I don't know,I had some he was onto something in
that town. I was knowing.Yeah, I'm just like, this is
so weird. You're talking about Pottermoreand all this stuff. You're right,
I couldn't. I mean I wasonly ten, ten years old at like

(08:03):
twenty thirteen era, but like anyI can't like tell you anything significant about
that time. I was too youngto I don't have enough memories from back
then. So it was I can'tremember it because I was like, you
know, ten to how I wassaying in twenty nineteen. Wait, I
thought I would have been seventeen.I was like ten to seventeen years old

(08:24):
between late the arc of like twentythirteen to twenty nineteen. So where is
that as the math bath thing?I don't know. But what the point
is that? Like I don't rememberanything from like before yesterday more all of
the story. Everyone needs to eatmore carrots. Yeah I wait, wait
our Harri is the one for thememory or they might be eyesight. Don't

(08:46):
even listen to me. We needto we need to just get into the
episode. This is so bad.Um okay, well um. This episode
is sponsored by Devon, who hasbeen a sponsor for Patreon twice, So
thank you, Divine, We appreciatethat. Thanks. If you are listening
and you also would like an adfree version of Alohama or if you want

(09:09):
to watch the video where you cansee all of our amazing faces, facial
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a head on over to our Patreonand become a sponsor for as little as
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(09:31):
Alohama and you can find out moreand now our shout out Maxima from episode
three hundred and sixty eight with Bianca, Jeff and Rex. There's a lot
of great comments on an episode,but the one I picked was from disc
Kid, and they said discussing Narcissagot some interesting thoughts going through my head
I had never thought about before.My first thought was a comparison between Narcissa

(09:52):
and a Nazi wife from the thirtiesand forties, where the wives of Nazi
Nazi men were technically members, butthey were not the most trusted confidence and
put in a lower le will thanher husbands. A big reason for this
is that Hitler was pretty sexist.He thought women were meant to be essentially
servants to their husbands. Voldemore isn'tquite like this, as Voldemo doesn't quite
understand romance so he likely doesn't careabout the business between husbands and wives.

(10:13):
However, do we think Voldemore mightbe a little sexist due to his mommy
issues? We know, and weknow he has mommy issues. He thinks
she was weak for dying and carriesanger at her for basically abandoning him at
the miserable orphanage. But the exceptionof Beltrick's, who he's smart enough to
know is his most loyal death eater, all of Voldemore's inner circle are of
death eaters that he trusts or aremen. Because of his issues, do
we think he might have a biastowards women and he might consider them less

(10:37):
trustworthy and even weaker in general?And I just I just thought it was
a really great quote from this kid, And I just was curious, do
we think if Harry was female,would Voldemore have a different response to him?
To even hear if Harry was female? My marrying Harrietta, Harrietta,
Harriet Harriet. Yeah, I don'tthink it would have changed at all.

(11:00):
I don't see, because even I'mtrying to think, you know, like
there's a lot of like movies andbooks where they're saying like oh, you
know, like fight me man toman or whatever, Like Voldemort was never
even like that anyways, Like I'mtrying to recall him. Ever, did
he ever bring up sex or genderin the series at all? I don't
think so. Yeah, I don't. I don't see it being I don't.

(11:24):
I can't imagine it being any different, just based on the fact that
he has never made any kind oflike references to any of that, I
don't think it would be any different. I don't. I think he just
kind of hates everyone equally. Idon't know if it really matters to him,
Like if he was really sexist,I feel like he wouldn't have trusted

(11:45):
narcissist judgment on whether or not Harrywas dead. Yeah, I agree with
I mean, like the woman,I can't trust the woman like sending another
man just to confirm, And ifhe did, then he would have then
Harry would have actually been dead.But you know, so, you know,
is he justified if he could becalling a man well in that circumstance.
Maybe, But like the point isthat I think if he really was
sexist, I think he would havebeen like I can't trust her as my

(12:09):
only option. Like, so Idon't know. I don't think here mommy
issues, yes, but on thatmakes one inherently sexist. Some people definitely
had mommy issues or a sexist,but you know, I don't think everyone
is. I think I kind ofam taking this kid's like line of thinking
on this, um. I thinkI think to your point, I think

(12:30):
that he would have I kind ofgot the impression that in that chapter when
he sent Narcissa to check to seeif Harry was alive, it was because
she was kind of disposable to him, Like I think he was concerned that
Harry was not dead and so kindof doing it as like a punishment because
he definitely knew something didn't go toplan, Like there's a reason why he

(12:52):
sent someone to find out whether hewas dead. And I think, you
know, I tell to think thathe definitely took some of those views with
him in terms of like his historywith his mother, and he definitely underestimated
the love of a mother. Weknow that, So I don't know,

(13:13):
I tend to think that he tooksome of that with him along the way,
not necessarily in like a sexist way, but like I definitely think he
didn't necessarily like value womanhood or likethe women that were a part of his

(13:33):
I guess line of thinking. Youknow, even when you when we say
that he had mommy issues, canwe even elaborate on that, because I
feel like he was more let's say, angry and resentful towards his dad because
he would be like, oh,like, you know, he left my
mom as soon as he you know, found out whatever. So so is

(13:56):
that it's definitely in the book wherehe did call his mom week, Is
that right? I think so.Yeah. He also thought that, um,
like he initially thought that his dadmust have been the wizard, Like
he just assumed that that his fathermust have been the wizard and his mom
was the muggle or like, becausehe was like looking for his name everywhere,
um initially, And so I think, yeah, I think he definitely

(14:22):
had some of those views because heliterally said, like, oh, if
my mom had been the Wizard,she wouldn't have died because she would have
been able to stop it. AndI think that's where, like, I
think he has a lot of resentmentbuilt up with his mother because she didn't
stop herself from dying. I knownow that you say that, I guess
that also falls into him not caringabout muggles at all. So that is

(14:46):
a very fair point. So allright, thank you for confirming. I
mean, I think it's I thinkit's safe to say that he just has
general parent issues. I'm sure there'sunderlying issues with his father and probably a
lot of abandonment issues too, umand the way they manifested and a turned
into a malicious thing instead of ayou know, the complete opposite, being
very timid and like you know,repressed um, which is very very weird,

(15:11):
like weird to think about comparison toHarry, who has like very similar
um situation in terms of family andkind of being dumped on the doorstep of
someone that like, you know,isn't that great to him? Um.
And then the fact that he didn'tturn out with him at all. That's
a good point, because Harry doesn't. I don't remember ever having Harry's blaming
him, not blaming his parents,but like having abandonment issues about his parents,

(15:33):
not really I mean not direct aband ament issues, like a bandon
issues in terms of like the falloutof being having had to be abandoned by
his parents, but like it wasn'tlike, you know, he'd never blamed
them. I mean, he knewwhy they died, but it's like,
um, and it's not like theydidn't neither of them left him because they
didn't you know, want him ordidn't like to find that they were wizards

(15:56):
or something that that they just bothdied to another pon who's also said about
visiting his parents, and you thinkhe'd feel bad about killing an other kids
parents, but he doesn't. Hedoesn't have any remorse about taking like doing
the same thing that he experienced someoneelse because he wants everyone to feel as
crappy as he does. And Ithink another piece there is thinking about how
that impacted the way that they trustedor didn't trust other people. Right,

(16:19):
So both of them were you know, without parents, Like even like Harry
growing up, he didn't Harry didn'thave anybody he could trust, like no,
I mean he didn't even have apet, which is just yeah anyways,
so like he had no one thathe could trust. So even for
him to you know, like goto Hogwarts and I don't know, I'm
assuming he went the same not thesame time as tom Myrtle, but like

(16:41):
they went when they were at thesame age, Like you can like tom
went not trusting anybody like very paraknown about everyone versus Harry, who was
even though he also grew up withoutparents. You know, he was very
open to meeting new friends. Andeven though he did have you know,
like a lot of moments where hewas like, oh, I don't know
if I should tell them, andyou know, he did have to work
his way up to being able tohelp or being able to accept help from

(17:04):
like a larger group. He didput that trust in Ron and Hermione like
almost right away, versus Baltimore orTom Riddle at the time, where he
just never really fully trusted anyone likehe would like he would maybe get like
to like that ninety percent mark andbe like, no, still can't do
it. But in a way,I feel like Harry doesn't trust adults completely,

(17:26):
Like he always feels like he hasto do everything himself. In some
ways, that's true, but Ithink when I was looking about it from
Tom Riddle's perspective, it's like hedidn't trust anyone. Like I agree,
like Harry didn't trust a lot ofpeople, but at least he had the
two like Ron and Hermione versus Baltimore, where like he even though he had
all of these friends slash followers,he never put real trust into any of

(17:48):
them, like not ones. Imean, imagine going your entire life and
not being able to confide in anyoneor like only like eighty percent of the
way. Yeah, I think that, I honestly said. The person that
Tom came close to trusting is probablylike sloghorn Um, but like he has
like this like compulsion obviously to likemanipulate anyone that gets close to him,

(18:11):
and so part of the you know, they both Harry and Tom have trust
issues, but like on opposite sideof the spectrum. When Harry has trust
his usual he kind of wants totrust someone too quickly in a sense,
even though he's still kind of likecautious about it, Like he wants to
like find someone to put his trusthim to just like have someone to confide
in and like rely on other thanhimself for once, even if he still

(18:33):
does everything himself, he still wantsto have someone that he feels like is
there to like lean on. Andthen Tom is like the complete opposite,
where like he even though people havegiven him an ample reason to trust them
and like show that they care abouthim, he still can't trust them and
rather like you know, once theyget close enough, he just manipulates them
anyway, which ends up making thetrust issues works. And I'm like,

(18:55):
oh, everyone leasing it. Theproblem. The problem is him. He's
the problem. This is like someas you think the other problem and you're
not the problem, but he's theproblem. But anyway, all right,
well we kind of get into someof what like interesting topics about how Harry
should be more less trusting than heis based on what happens when Aunt Marge.
So let's want to get into theepisode. Yeah, let's do it.
Yes, karitaun should do it.Chapter revisit Chapter two, Aunt Marge's

(19:33):
Big Mistake. So in this chapter, Harry spends another uncelebrated birthday at private
Drive until Vernon let's on that Harrywill indeed, beginning at present a visit
from the lovely Aunt Marge. Marge'shatred towards Harry and favoritism of Dudley has
resulted in every visit of hers causingsignificant trauma for Harry. I saw Harry

(19:55):
strikes up a deal with Vernon thathe'll keep up Muggle appearances and exchange or
Vernon signing off on Harry's Hoggs madepermission slip at Marge and almost spitting image
of Vernon and both looking temperament criticizesHarry from basically existing. Despite that,
Harry maintains his composure for the wholeweek. Mentally, we're sitting textbook passages
whenever Marge starts brading him. However, on the finally of her stay,
Marches insults her onto jameson Lily,and Harry finally loses his cool. Marge

(20:19):
swells and floats as a full helium. Harry packs up with Lena is starting
burning with his wand and saying thatMarge deserved it and she did as she
did. Good summary assure, Thankyou? Wait did you write that?
Yes, ma'am usa? Oh mygod, we need to write those ourselves,

(20:41):
like we hire, we hire,like someone else on to write all
the summaries. Well, you knowwhat. I was also thinking, like,
wait a minute, why don't wejust reuse the one from the brainiers?
You know what. I'm also recordingnext week, Oh no, not
next week, next week after next, and I'm like, watch the chapter
summary being mine. Whoever's listening tothis, I would do it, okay,

(21:06):
but yeah, let's definitely go aheadand jump into the discussion. One
thing that I thought was really interestingis that the chapter starts off with Harry
walking downstairs where the Dursley is alreadyeating, And I just had a thought
that this has happened a lot throughoutthe books, where like, you know,
they would either be like waking himup, or he would come to
the kitchen and Petunia was already cleaning, or Dudley was already in front of

(21:29):
the TV. And I just startedjust wondering, like, what time does
Harry get up, liked the Dursleyjust wake up super early, or does
Harry just so happened to be alate riser, or is it just kind
of like I want to say,on my room for as long as humanly
possible until I feel like I'm starvingand I have to come out because I
don't know. I just thought itwas interesting because for me, like I'm

(21:51):
an early bird, so it wassomething it was just something I was being
mindful of. So I'm curious,what do you all think. It's a
good question. That's I mean,like to put it one way, the
poor kid is like, are youseverely traumatized? Like eleven years old?
And that like makes you tired,so like I can imagine that he'd sleep
more just out of the exhaustion heprobably feels constantly mentally and physically from not

(22:14):
having anyone to like care for theconfide in um. But also I'm sure
he sticks in his room because hedoesn't want to have to come out for
as long as human a possible.But also i'd like to think that like
double functions on like infant time whine, like they have to feed him at
like seven am, where he's gonnastart wailing at the top of his lungs.
He's like me, He's just likehis whole life. But based on

(22:38):
the characterization in the book of thembeing like lazy and all this the imagery,
you'd think that they would do theopposite, like mc harry the early
riser in them, like always stayingin bed, staying late. I agree,
that's what I would saying, tropeof the fat trope that they've been
tacking onto the dur sleeves. Yeah, well, Petunia, it's really Dudley

(23:00):
and Vernon. Arguably, Petuna wouldprobably be up early to do her like
her morning cleaning than she does likeyeah, yeah, she'd probably have like
you know, horrible like NPR symelor something like that. She would listening
to something super boring, like,she would not be listening to any fun
tunes. It'd be like some droningon radio show about how the world is
dying and everyone sucks. She's probablysnooping around the neighborhood trying to see what

(23:23):
dirt she can get on le fromthe others. That's what she's like.
Morning snoop, morning cleaning, morningmeal for Dudley, and then inshort Harry.
Well, the other thing is like, we know that Harry stays up
like half the night. That's true. That is true. That's his time
where he can be alone or notbothered by anyone and maybe having all those
wretched as dreams. So maybe heneeds some more of that, more of

(23:48):
that rim fleet. He's like doinghis homework. He's getting owls like he's
up half the night, so hemust not wake up very early. So
is he up half the night becausehe doesn't want to do those things during
the day, because I mean,he's literally not doing anything else. So
in theory he has time to dothose things in the day in the daytime.
But I guess maybe it's because he'drather do it when they're asleep and

(24:11):
he doesn't have to worry about orhe has to, he doesn't have to
worry as much about being heard orsomething like that. Yeah, I definitely
think that's heard of. I thinkhe you know, because he they're asleep
and he gets the whole night tohimself to do whatever he wants, and
he does anything. Yeah, noone can hear anything of her friends snoring
at about you. So exactly,is Harry an introvert? Yeah for sure?

(24:33):
Yeah, I think at least yeah, is Ron an extrovert? Yeah,
I would say Ron's next. Ifeel like he is. What's the
mid term? Is it ambient?No, that's wrong. I think that
is right ambiver I was right,Okay, I think Ron is a bit
more maybe her mind, he's moreambiverted. I think it depends on the

(24:55):
situation that Ron has put in,because we know that he like gets anxious
like about quit it stuff and likethat. Yeah, I feel like most
extort people wouldn't even get anxious aboutlike anything in that circumstance. Way,
I think he's still introverted in somerespects, just like I feel like it's
probably also but he's like the secondto the second to last at the young
guest of the kid. So likethe amount of you know, siblings,

(25:17):
he has a kind of force almostcan't afford to be an introvert, Like
how can you be an introvert inthat house? It's like if you're an
introvert, you get stepped on.That's why Jenny is like the most bold
out of every last one of them. She's like and she still gets whacked
around like nobody's business. Let Ithink as more as like where you get
your energy from. I feel likeRon gets energy from people around him.

(25:38):
He likes having friends and people andHarry and Hermione, whereas Harry I think
likes to he likes having run hermoney around obviously, but I think he
thrives when he could kind of likehe's very introspective and likes to be a
loan. I think that's very fair. So that would make her money.
And I think she's probably middle middlezone. Yeah, yeah, okay.

(26:00):
I think it's really like Harry islike furthest on the spectrum towards like enterer,
and then her mind is like that, like probably closer to dead center
than her. Ron's like still notfor like completely for like as fury Away
all the way extrovert, but he'slike the furthest along the line of extrovert.
Okay, I'm just I don't know. I think I'm trying to like
I'm overthinking her mining because I liketo think that I am hermione as well,

(26:22):
so it's like hermione does I think? And also when I think about
her minding being an extrovert, especiallywhen she was really young, you know,
she it was kind of in theI won't say a bad way,
but it wasn't like a kind oflike a show off way, like kind
of like putting her nose in likeother people's business. And you know,
obviously in Clash, he's always theone to like raise her hand first and

(26:44):
everything. But I don't know ifI see her being super extroverted in a
sense of like let's say, Idon't know if she if she goes to
like an event where she doesn't knowanyone, she's going to be the one
to like speak up first at thetable if it doesn't have anything to do
with it's like the task at ahand. But I don't know. Um,
I definitely consider myself an introverted extrovert. So I resonate with the whole

(27:07):
in between things, Like I'm definitelya social butterfly, but I also value
alone time so much and I haveto recharge without people. Like it's not
like more people more energy, it'slike like after this call, like I'm
not going to talk for like threehours to anybody, Like I'm so happy
to be here and I'm like yeah, yeah, but after this, I'm
like I need it now, Ineed to go, and then like rewind

(27:32):
totally relate to that. Yeah,I definitely think her mind is in that
like mid zone area, because likeshe doesn't have issues with just talking to
people even in large group settings,and she has no issues with like making
her presence stone but like raising herhand, and I think a lot of
introverts, even if they know theanswer, won't raise their hand because like
it's like, oh, everyone's gonnalook at you and like kind of notice
her there. She doesn't mind that, but like she definitely needs like that

(27:55):
recharger. She's like hiding the libraryreading for hours on her own because like
she still wants that like time toherself, and that's the thing she likes
to do is learn, So itkind of gives that introverted traits while also
not mining people knowing that she existsin that sense. Also well, speaking
of Hermione, one of the thingsI want to talk about was, like
the wording in this chapter, there'sa lot of like fat pig wording stereotypes.

(28:18):
In the episode twenty, they talkeda lot about how like Hermione is
not considered pretty until later on,and she's supposedly a good character, so
it kind of breaks the trope.But I feel like um In that episode
also they talk a lot about likeauthors like Ronald ron Donald Dahl who does
the same thing with Matilda and whatnot, about how like fat ugly characters are
bad and like good characters aren't.But in this chapter, the author describes

(28:42):
something as fat or beefy or piggyeighteen times in a pretty short chapter,
So it's curious it is what youlike. They there's piggy little eyes fixed
on the screen and five chins wabblingas the eight continuously deterverted. Dudley Matuna's
considered hort's face. Vernon thinks seriousblack is bad because he has bad hair
like stuff like that. So I'mjust curious for you guys think about like,

(29:04):
is it just a trope? Isit? Like why do you think
she has so many, um,so much characterizations of like fat, ugly,
it's bad and you know everything elseis good kind of thing. Please
tell me what a trope is.A trope is like like a idea attack
onto someone thinking that it's like legitimatebecause of like bias. Gotcha. Um,

(29:26):
I don't, Yeah, I don'tthink this. I don't. Obviously
the way the author writes it,this is like we're talking about like a
book. But I think this isvery similar to real life everyone. I
mean, I sounds so pessimistic.Everyone has judged about how they look,
but we do live in a worldwhere that is pretty common. Um and

(29:48):
even like in my world where justlike outside of this, I talk a
lot about like weight, stigma andlike those types of things. M and
then also you know, being someonelike who was black and has like different
hair and so I don't, Imean, I don't think this is that
this is not like unrealistic. Obviouslyit's written in a very like cartoonish type
of way, which kind of makesit humorous. When she said five chance,

(30:08):
I was like, bro fives likethat is so that is so dramatic,
but again, it's five chins.I'm like, but it's also funny
because it kind of makes me feellike Harry's kind of like talking to and
like that's kind of how he wassaying in his head, like he's like
gonna over there with his five chinswabbling. So um. I definitely think

(30:33):
it falls under like we want thesecharacters to be noticed bad people, so
we are going to describe them thisway. But I also feel like it's
it's pretty relatable to what happens inthe real world as well. I don't
disagree. I do. I dothink that the trope of them being everlight
is definitely beaten to death in thischapter. Like it's just like, Okay,

(30:55):
we get it, we get it, we really do like you.
We don't need to keep pointing itout, like it's not giving any more
character development. They suck, that'sall that really matters. Like, I
don't like. I think it's theauthor's way of like expressing the fact that,
like I don't agree with what they'resaying something to make them sound as
horrible as possible by like making funof the way they look. And I'm
like, is that how we criticizepeople that'll make fun of the way they

(31:17):
look, but like, apparently that'show we do it, um I,
But yeah, I think it's Imean, obviously, what was it,
I remember it chapter? It wasnow, but like the last episode I
was on order the Phoenix chapter orwhatever ten ten, I don't remember the
number where I thought that Hermione wasmaking fun of Panty Parkinson because she called

(31:38):
her a was like what called herlike a troll and like Dan's And I
thought that she meant like like waitwise, and it turns out she meant
like mentality wise. But like mycriticism doesn't change, even though I'm glad
it's not like an observation coming directlyfrom a character, I'll put it that
way. It makes it at leastit's not like reflection on someone's like bad

(32:00):
character, like I would hope toassume that it's just narration. Isn't Harry
directly thinking all these things? AlthoughI think it's hysterical that he would be
sitting there like look at that,look at that, look at that.
It's so funny, But like,I don't want to think Harry is like
diluted down to someone that like wouldreally like pull appearances into like an argument

(32:21):
when it's unnecessary, and I don'tthink he ever did. I don't think
so. I think it was kindof always like the inner dialogue or just
like the way the narrator would describethem. I don't think like in an
actual I don't know, showdown thatlike Harry would be like you so ugly
like ever. Also they don't ever, they don't run Hermione and Harry are

(32:44):
not written to be super attractive either, So I think that's also an interesting
point that it's like the people.I mean, there are certain people in
this book who I feel like areway to be really attractive to someone like
Flour obviously, but not the maincharacter. So it's even kind of interesting
that, Um, it's like wecan see the author going the extra mile

(33:05):
to really talk about the Dursleys.But in general, um, there's only
a few, in my opinion,specific people in this in this in the
entire series that are obviously I'm doingair quotes for the people who were listening
on audio, but the people whoare quote unquote obviously attractive, well,
even villemar like he's super He's supposedto be super attractive in the beginning and

(33:29):
then as he gets more evil,he gets more ugly. Fact, are
there any characters who are just prettybut evil in this I don't think so.
Narcissa, well, I know someof the people are going to argue
me on that, but um,she's not. I don't think she's described
as beautiful. But I think theway she's described, it's like implied that

(33:50):
she is attractive. Oh yeah,I wouldn't argue that Lucia's awful and that
hair is Um isn't attractive. Butis hair a movieism or is it?
I feel like it's do you evenneed to talk about his hair in the
book? I don't remember. Ithink I would like to assume that the
hair is is consistent, that thathair is everything we stand luscious walks,

(34:15):
Yeah, we all stand. SoI like reading this chapter. I kind
of am on board with Asher whereit just feels like this was just like
beat to the very end. Um. And I think like it's really important
to recognize um, you know,as someone myself who has struggled like with

(34:35):
weight or appearances or you know,like trying to become like a healthier version
of myself. Um, I thinkit's really important to just like recognize and
state that like health and wellness looksdifferent for every person. UM, being
overweight is obviously not necessarily indicative oflike overindulging or being lazy. UM.
And of course it's a very likesensitive topic. UM. Like, as

(35:00):
you know, as someone who struggledwith it myself, and as someone as
like I'm also a nurse, Ithink it's important to recognize that there are
a lot of emotional, psychological,physical factors that play into it that have
nothing to do with that. AndI think obviously this chapter doesn't do a
great job of conveying it, andit's not really like the job of the

(35:20):
chapter to convey that. But allof that being said, I never really
was bothered by this chapter reading it, and like the reason why is I
always kind of read the perspective ascoming from Harry's point of view. So
I think it's interesting that one ofyou was saying that, like you hope

(35:42):
that it wasn't coming from Harry's pointof view. I think it makes perfect
sense coming from Harry's point of view, because it really is just highlighting the
contrast between Dudley and I think basicallyeverything Dudley has is in excess. He
like literally in the first books roomjust for all of his stuff, and
Harry was stuck sleeping under the stairswith all the spider And that's not to

(36:05):
say that that's Dudley's fault, becausebeing spoiled and getting everything you could ever
want is obviously going to cause alot of damage for Dudley, and he
comes to terms with that, Ithink later in the series. I think
he starts to realize that that wasn'tgood for him, And I mean Dumbledore
even points it out in book sixwhen he sees Dudley and he talks to

(36:29):
Vernon and Betunia that there was alot of damage done by like what their
approach was to giving him everything thathe wanted, and like where Dudley gets
everything he wanted and like is verylike over and like is very over indulged.
Harry's literally starved, and so likethe Dursleys are using these like food

(36:52):
and like gifts and material goods aslike an expression of their love. And
that's like super problem attic because like, I mean you can even see when
he gets put on a diet inbook four, like he just like emotionally
loses it, and like that makesperfect sense, but at the same time
for Harry, they'rewithholding those things therewithholdingthose food and material goods, and they

(37:15):
use it as like a form ofmanipulation and punishment. So it's like the
complete opposite and neither is good.But I think it makes perfect sense that
from Harry's perspective, where he's beinglike starved and neglected, he looks at
Dudley and sees this over indulgence andobviously sees it as a very negative thing.
And so that's why I think,like the narrator ends up like exaggerating

(37:39):
a lot of these descriptions because toHarry it's all very excessive. Like,
of course we know that Dudley likenever got to the weight of what like
in one of the books, it'slike that he got to the weight of
like a killer whale or something like. Obviously we know that's not a practical
thing. But I think from theperspective, from the perspective of Harry,

(38:02):
like as or like Harry's perspective andthe narrator, I think it makes perfect
sense. So kind of like away of showing how both sides of abuse
in a way kind of yeah,I can I can love with that,
I can accept that as a fact. I still think it's a little overkill,
but like it does make sense,like they has to find of course,
you'dn't want to find something to likecriticize them about if if the whole

(38:25):
narration is from Harry's point of view, because like you can't talk bad about
them to their face, and Ithink the only way to get his anchor
out is to kind of like criticizethem on the side, and um,
obviously criticize them for his treatment ofhim would make sense, but like they
throw jobs about his appearance all thetime, so I kind of get like
trying to sort of return the favor. Essentially. That's a good point that

(38:49):
they actually do talk about Harry's appearancea lot. And thanks to Kat,
I have been reading the Sue Graftonseries The Alphabet Mystery, and in that
book, the main character Kinsey,she actually is always like talking about people's
appearances. So obviously it's not likethe same situation. The target audience is

(39:10):
definitely different. But you know,she might make an observation like, oh,
this she might be describing Oman,and she might say something like,
oh, whose hair has clearly thinnedout over the years, or her makeup
was this or paint or his hairthat started balding ten years too soon or
something like that. Like it's it'slike a but in that book it's a

(39:34):
or in that book series. It'sa very like observational type of thing.
It's not even judgment. And Ithink that, you know, just being
very honest and transparent. We alldo that, right, Like we might
look at someone and be like,oh, well that I don't know those
pants are a little big, orthey're a little high water where, oh
that makeup is put on pretty thickand and and whatever. Let's be honest,

(39:54):
we're human. Maybe sometimes we arejudging, but sometimes it's just a
matter of this is what my eyessee, right like, and I mean,
and obviously people do it to usas well. So do you want
to move on to birthdays and moresadly abused? Yeah, yeah right,

(40:14):
I'm sure. Reason when I wasreading this, I was thinking about how
like Dudley's birthday is only a monthbefore Harry's, but like the complete comparison
between, like the over indulgence forDudley and then like completely ignoring Harry's birthday.
I'm kind of a birthday person,so I just the fact that like
he's like, what if he inthis book thirteen and they're just like completely
ignored birthday would give him dog food. It's just really sad to me.

(40:36):
I don't know, Sarcy were thesame. My birthday is like a holiday,
like I literally, but I'm alsothe same with like the birthdays of
people in my life. It's like, this is the day that like we're
gonna show you that you were specialand to be for it to just not
even be acknowledged, man, AndI think that Harry actually did say something
like it didn't bother him, likehe was used to it, or maybe

(40:58):
that wasn't specific to his birthday.Maybe that was just when he was talking
about how they didn't acknowledge him comingin the room. But I'm like,
that's bs it had, even ifeven if on the surface it doesn't like
feel like that impact that there's noway that like, yeah, that was
it was. That was very sadand Petunia like it's her sister's son.
I just find it so weird howshe's so like maybe she has to detach

(41:22):
herself to like get over it orwith all the issues she has with Lily,
but it's just to not even belike, hey, happy birthday,
nephew. I don't know. Imentioned that later. I mentioned that later,
But yeah, I think it's likealso interesting that she like makes it
so special for Dudley and so umlike ignored I guess for Harry. Um

(41:43):
it almost makes you wonder whether it'slike an intentional choice on her part in
terms of like how she felt inher childhood, like she felt like Lily
was like the special one and shewas kind of shunted to the side,
and so maybe in like her wayof kind of getting like I don't know,
like I don't know for revenge isthe right word, but like kind
of like making it even where she'staking it down on hair and she wants

(42:04):
like Dudley to feel very like specialover Harry because she felt that way like
as a child, whether like rightor wrong, whether that was actually what
happened, like that was her likelived experience, and so if that,
if that's how she felt, Iguess it could be that she's kind of
trying to transfer that onto Harry.I love that comparison to so much.

(42:28):
I have never thought about it thatway, and that actually makes a ton
of sense to me. Like tenthousand percent. Yeah, when you think
about like the way that Lily isalmost like Voldemort's name in that house where
it's like, wait, you donot speak it, and you know that
all of that comes from like jealousyand just like bitterness and resent and resentment

(42:51):
like it. I think that actuallymakes perfect sense. Like from her perspective,
it's almost like she was like Harryis Petunia whenever they were younger and
forgot his name Dudley, and Dudleyis Um is Lily. And going back
to what we were saying earlier whereit's like, oh, you would think
that because you know what that feelslike, you wouldn't want someone else to

(43:14):
feel that way. It's actually theopposite, And unfortunately, I think we,
I mean we see that that happensin real life a lot, right,
Like you know, you have traitsof your parents and things that you
know you maybe you don't maybe tracethat. You have some trace that you
like, but you have something thatyou don't like, but you do you
have those ones that you're like,oh, I said I would never do
this, and then you do it. It's generational abuse in trauma, sadly

(43:35):
a very um common and I'm surethat plays a huge role, But I
would like to think that like Harrygets all of the presidents that Dudley gets
bored of with him like a weekafter having them, like you know,
that's still a hand me down.It's like he gets to said, they're
like, Okay, a week fromnow, I'll get the first like ten
gifts. We'll get tired of themand have play with them already, Like
yeah, I feel like Dudley's verymuch like he plays it for five minutes

(43:58):
He's done. Yeah, my turn, because because Dudley's just an overgrown baby,
it's like children like that. That'swhat I did. I mean in
this case from Toy Story and theway definitely put like weird together. Yeah,
and I think, you know,speaking of characters that I don't like,

(44:22):
as we're talking about Petunia and howshe treated Harry and how you know,
Tracy was just making the whole pointabout how um you know, thinking
about oh, you would think like, oh, this is Lily soun cough
cough, can we talk about anothercharacter? Um snape? Because I just
I wanted to note here that asHarry was like reminiscing on like his very

(44:45):
fond a lot of sarcasm, veryfond memories of Aunt Marge, and he
talks about how he was literally chasedup a tree by a dog and had
to stay in that tree for whoeven knows how long. It just like
the level of traumatizing that is.I personally, like, I absolutely love
dogs. When I hear stories aboutpeople getting bit by a dog, like

(45:07):
it really just like hurts my heart. And also like, I can't imagine
how traumatizing that is, especially fordogs, because they're they're everywhere, right,
Like, if you are a personwho is afraid of dogs, I
mean where you're gonna go, becauselike dogs are they're literally they're they're literally
all over point being that's obviously anextremely traumatizing experience along with all of the

(45:30):
other horror stories that we've heard aboutHarry. And then you know, we
still got people who are out herelike, oh, well, you know
snay pat at that childhood and I'mlike and so yeah, sorry, not
sorry, snape lovers. It's actuallyreally funny you mentioned that because you think

(45:50):
you think that you think that thatHarry would be scared of dogs after this,
but like he never It's like weirdbecause he like it's it just shows
like he never I want to say, takes the trauma to like heart in
the sense that he never like istraumatized, like using the trauma against someone.
Does that make sense? Like likethe trauma doesn't manifest the way that

(46:12):
he like gains a fear of thething that traumatize him. Like he doesn't
seem all too afraid of the durst. He's like very still willing to stand
up to them despite the fact thatlike they've abused him and tried to like
whip him into not doing that,and he's still like is willing to stand
up to them, and he's notscared of dogs. Like he doesn't like
have like any kind of like fearrelated to the trauma of like Aunt Marge
or it doesn't like you know,like seem hesitant to like be around her

(46:36):
other than just not enjoying the conversationsthat she brings up. Like he doesn't
seem to like have those traumas manifestand took a fear of anything. It
kind of just like turns into likehim, well he doesn't he doesn't like
go anywhere past like him being traumatized. I almost feel like that because this
is kind of still a children's book. Yeah, he never internalizes those traumas
or like has like a like hasthose like manifests. It's like a fear

(47:00):
of anything. Yeah, Harry wentthrough an insane amount of trauma as a
kid, like you mentioned, andhe came out like crazy well adjusted,
like the fact that he just isn'tafraid of everyone and everything, and like
I don't know he trusted strangers enoughto like hop along with Hagrid to diagon
Alley, Like I have no ideahow he came out of it all so

(47:22):
well, yeah, I have noclue. Um, But like what do
you think it would have been likeif he had like if Hogwarts wasn't a
thing, which, like I mean, he would have just had a miserable
life. We know that, Butlike how do you think that would have
affected like the trauma from his childhood? Like I think he definitely would have
continued to accumulate trauma, but likehow like do you think he still would

(47:45):
have been relatively well adjusted because that'sjust like his personality and how he is,
or would he have like with thecontinuation of this led to like a
very different place. I thought thatwas really he brought it up. I
do think that we more or lesssee some level of improvement with the Dursleys

(48:06):
over time. I think that thatcould have still been possible if he didn't
go to Hogwarts, if not moreso, because they wouldn't have been like
had that him being a wizard tackedonto the reason they hate him, because
like, you know, like hewent from the cupboard, he went to
an actual room. Like they weremaking slow amounts of progress over time.
You know, eleven years is along time to get him to move from

(48:29):
one room from under the under thestairs to an actual room. But like
eleven years they finally decided to likegive him that extra space. So I
think over time it might have notimproved, but like he would have become
a little less horrendous on him.But at the same time, they also
we saw where they wanted to sendhim. They want to send him.
They in their ideal fantasy universe ofwhat was happening with Harry and in their

(48:52):
household. He would have been atSaint Brutus's blah blah blah blah blah.
Sorry, I don't know the wholethe whole title. It's criminally uncurable boys,
whatever it is, Like they wantedto send him there, and if
he had gotten sent there, Ido think that the trauma he would have
experience would have been like tenfold worsesomeone he would experience in the Dursleys,
because we know, like it's obviouslyit's a it's a prison slash boys school,

(49:16):
and both of those things combined islike the worst thing you could ever
think of. I think you gotyou got the all of the like you
know, breaking down of like what'sthe word for like like self like confidence
and um whatever that word is thatlike me like dignity of a prison plus
like a boys school, which isoften you know, exposed the place of

(49:37):
extreme abuse. I think he wouldexperience like the worst abuse and he could
ever experience the dursleis and probably frombeing honest, probably sexual abuse too,
if we're being completely honest, itis a boys school plus prison, I'm
sure that would have definitely happened fromwhether that be staff or other kids are
both. I think the trauma hewould have gotten from going off to some

(49:59):
boarding school like that would have beensignificantly worse. So I think Hogwarts probably
saved his skin on that end,because I don't doubt they would have eventually
sent him off to something like thateventually, were they planning on setting him
off to boarding school where may likecompleting that something else? Wasn't that something
that they mentioned that that was aplan of theirs? I think so was
the boarding score or was it publicor wasn't a regular school because I thought

(50:21):
that it was Dudley. Yeah,I think Dudley was the one who was
Yeah, yeah, they're not goingto pay for Harry to go anywhere.
Yeah true, Yeah they're not verytrue. Oh yeah yeah. Really thinking
at Hogwarts, like, even thoughhe has all the people who supports them,
he still experiences pretty bad trauma anyway, because he has like you know,
Boldimer trying to kill him. Hegets tortured by um what's your faith?

(50:44):
Umbridge? Uh, he dies technically, you know, like all that
stuff, and like he sees peopledying. And I feel like the way
Harry internalizes all the trauma from Micheldeis that he looks for his own found
family. And I think even ifhe didn't go to Hogwarts, he would
still try to find people that hecould make his phone. So I think
I could see him turning out similarin the sense that I think he would

(51:05):
just try and find friends or peoplethat he could make his own, like
family. I think that's a reallygood point. I would love to know
what the listeners thoughts are on this. Let me put that plug in there.
But I think that's a really goodpoint Tracy about the friends, because
I was thinking he went to Hogwartswhen he was eleven, so I'm thinking,
Okay, he's going to go topublic school between the ages of eleven

(51:28):
and seventeen or eighteen. And youknow, even like Asher kind of bringing
up like the potential sexual abuse andwe saw and gobbled a fire right when
like the puberty was really hitting.I was gonna say, I think that
there's gonna be a lot of otherthings that he would have had to gone
he would have had to go throughas far as like developing like feelings for

(51:50):
girls or boys or whoever. Andalso really, I mean, obviously you
can get bullied when you're you know, younger, but I feel like it
just it can go to another levelwhenever you're old enough to know that,
like you can really wound someone rightlike a ten year old being like,
oh, you know, you're ugly. I'm not saying that's not hurtful,

(52:10):
but you know, even as I'msaying all of this, in my head,
I'm like, he's still got allof that from Draco Malfwick. So
even as I'm saying all of this, I kind of feel like, to
what Tracy was saying, a lotof those things, he actually did go
through them at Hogwarts. But againgoing back to what Tracy said, I
think the biggest difference is, likehe had his tribe there, So if

(52:34):
he did happen to go to apublic school, it would be critical for
him to have like that foundation offriendship, whether that was only one person
or two or whatever, but Ithink that would be absolutely critical to have
that because at the end of theday, like we're humans, like right,
like we're social beings, And ifhe were going through this for the

(52:55):
next X amount of years and hestill didn't have anyone who he could we
don't even have to say, confidein anyone who could take him away from
that, I do think that thatwould have been a whole other level of
just like down ah, like awhole other down level if he didn't have
that. But again, it's notlike his life at Hogwarts was all,

(53:17):
you know, daisies and roses.But I think the other really cool thing
about Hogwarts, which a lot ofus don't get in a school, is
that it was also his home,right, So you're also looking at it
from the perspective of if he wentto public school, even if he you
know, whatever happened in school,he would have he would literally have been
coming home to the Dursleys every singlenight. So I do think there would

(53:39):
have been a difference, but Ithink we can call out differences and similarities.
Again, I would I would loveto hear what the listeners think about
this some other perspectives. I thinkthe Dursleys definitely would have tried their very
hardest to isolate Harry and and Iknow, like I'm gonna talk about I'm
gonna end up talking about that alittle bit later, but like they really

(53:59):
tried to isolate him to the pointwhere he couldn't have any friends. He
couldn't like, I mean, hetried. They tried to keep him from
his friends from Hogwarts. They triedto keep him from going to Hogwarts so
that he could stay isolated. Sothat's, you know, I think that
would have been a big issue.And I think the other thing is he
really learned how to stand up tothe Dursleys because he went to Hogwarts and

(54:21):
because he was able to like getaway from it. I don't know that
he would have been able to standup to them as much as he did,
because he also used his magic toleverage big time. Like he they
were scared of him, and hethat in a brilliant way most of the
time. But I'm not sure thatwould have been the case if he didn't

(54:42):
have magic to kind of threaten themwith magic or the crazy um godfather who
broke out of Wizard President. Yeah, that's that's a good point. That's
a lot of leverage that he wouldnot have he never discovered Hogwarts. I
also liked the thing I think,Rachel, you bring us up leader,
but it obviously one of the issues, Like one of the things that was

(55:02):
so good about Hogwarts is because noone knew the Dursleys and it wasn't part
of like their small town where likeall of whatever rumors they felt like passing
on. People could have already hadlike misconceptions about him because like obviously word
travels because there was other kids asidefrom Dudley bullied Harry because of Dudley and
things like that, like people likeheard things about him. Obviously they talked

(55:24):
about him clearly because Aunt Marge hassome very bad misconcepsions about Harry that I'm
sure they were telling her to makeher hate him as much as she does.
So I'd like to think that maybemaking friends would have been harder for
him because he didn't get to gosomewhere like no one knew who wore who
he was. Well, that's notactually true, because everyone knows who he

(55:45):
is, but no one has asmisconceptions about him as everyone just thinks he's
a great person because he's survived.He's the only one that survived Baltimore,
like the mist Like the ideas peoplehave about Harry in like the Wizarding World
are like all positive as opposed tolike in his area of like circle back
in the Pero Drive or all probablynegative and people great finding different things about

(56:07):
Harry. Now, Oh, hewas dumped on these poor people's doorstep,
and like, you know, he'sjust weird, like he's misbehaved and disrespectful
and blah blah blah blah blah kindof thing where you know, he doesn't
get a chance to even like fightyou for his side because everyone's been saying
all these horrible things about him,probably since he was dropped off there.
Yeah, it's almost like you couldeven add like a third potential storyline and

(56:30):
there of what would Harry be likeif he had gone to Hogwarts as a
regular student who was not the chosenone, like he did not have that
spotlight, I mean, because hewould still I mean arguably, you know,
Ryan and Hermione would still be hisfriends, and he would still have
the same group of friends. Itwould just be like, you know,
not someone trying to kill you orsome crazy thing happening at the end of

(56:52):
every school year, all the moreso thoughtful like that he always waits until
school's done. I feel like,is it weird to think that, like
if he didn't go through all thethings he did at Hogwarts and he was
just a regular person, that thetrauma he experienced at the Dursleys would have
been a lot less like processed through, and it would have caused a lot
more issues later for him. Isthat weird to say that? But I
don't even think it was processed.But I'm saying, like, I think

(57:15):
I think that the trauma he experiencedin the Dursleys would have been a lot
more significantly impactful to him if hedidn't go through all the things he did
at Hogwarts, because that like tookthat took precedent over everything that happened because
the additional trauma, yeah, welladditional trauma. But also like in between
all the moments of trauma, there'ssome very good moments that come from him
being the chosen One. Like hestill gets like some great moments and like

(57:37):
great experiences because he's a chosen One, but like all of the trauma experiences
from that kind of overtakes all thetrauma he got at the Dursleys because at
the point, like what's what's thedifference, Like you know, like that
was like nothing compared to like seeinghis friend die or you know, being
trying to be killed like like howmany times in a row? None of
that even compares. So if hewas a normal student, I would say

(57:59):
that he probably would be more likewould be dealing with the trauma of the
Dursley is a lot more and probablyhaving a lot more tule processing that slash
getting over that, because that's stillvery significant trauma. I think it's just
it was the way it kind oflike, you know what the more significant
trauma was all the near death experienceshe had that let me think about Okay,

(58:22):
do you think that Ron would havestill been his friend if he didn't
have the Chosen One thing? Ithink part of the perk for Ron is
like he hates it, but Ithink he also loves the fact that,
like, he's best friends with HarryPotter. So I wonder if he would
have talked to him on the trainright away, if that's the reason Hermione
talked to them too, because sheknew that he was Harry Potter. Wait

(58:43):
did Ron No? I knew Hermioneknew. I don't think Ron knew.
Ron did no before he met him, he knew? Yeah, yeah,
So I think one of the othersiblings. Yeah, I think one of
the other siblings make it pass.Maybe I have a movie in my head.
Yeah, I think it was theTwins. I think the twins mentioned
at first, and they see himon the platform, it's like, oh,
that's Harry Potter kind of thing.I do think that Ron would have

(59:06):
still been his friend. I thinkit was one of those things where it's
it's probably more like, honestly,like an icing on the cake type of
thing, like Ron was drawn tothat because we already know that Ron has
like this complex of like I'm notenough. But I think that if Harry
wasn't the chosen when in the seatwas empty, like Ron would have been
like, oh you're not I don'tthink that Ron would be like, oh
you're not special, so I'm notgoing to talk to you. But I

(59:29):
also I'm a Ron fan, sothere's that good point. Yeah, that's
true. No, I agree.I think he's still have been friends with
him, but I think him beinga chosen one made a little bit more
of a droll like I think maybeit might not become friends as fast as
they did, but I think itmight have been more like, i'll we
met each other like or second orthird night of Hogwarts kind of thing,
as opposed to like meeting emulate onthe tram because they were drawn to him
because he's Harry Potter kind of thing. Yeah, and of course they're gonna

(59:52):
be drawn to him, Like it'snot like a bad thing per se,
because you see a celebrity in thewild kind of thing you're gonna be you
know, you're gonna want, You'regonna have like a desire to go over
and sit with them and talk tothem kind of thing, like it's kind
of the same deal where it's likeI get it, Like of course they
don't want to like sit with HarryPotter, like he's Harry Potter, Like
they've been here about him in thepast, like however long they've been alive.
So but Hermione hadn't been hearing aboutHermione had only learned about Harry Potter

(01:00:14):
like very recently. And I thinkthat Hermione, Well, we could make
the argument about Lockhart, but whatI was going to say is I think
that Hermione has been very much likeI don't care about like your status.
And I also think that with Lockhartit was more about it was more from
like it was more of like abookish thing slash like a crush, Like

(01:00:36):
it was like, oh, likehe actually has all of these books,
Like it's not just that like he'sgood looking. That was just kind of
again the icing on the cake.But Asher, you said something earlier.
You said you said something to theeffect of he had all these good things
happened to him since he was achosen one, And immediately my brain was
like like what so, I'm justI'm genuine I was really trying to think

(01:01:00):
of something. I was like,what is something that was really great that
happened to him at Hogwarts because hewas the chosen one? Like, what
are some of these things? Imeant, like anyone can answer, because
I'm really I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm like, obviously we know about
all like the craziness, but isthere anything that happened for Harry that would

(01:01:24):
specifically And I'm not even talking aboutlike, oh the da I just mean,
like just Harry specifically, anything thathappened to him or for him that
was really good because he was thechosen one that he actually wanted and enjoyed.
I would argue that quidditch is oneof those things. No, the
quiddit Quidditch wasn't related at all.Quidditch was because he just so happened to

(01:01:45):
be a good flyer that had nothingto do that was actually did he say
that in the book? Didn't hesay that that's one of the things he
loved about Quidditch's Put this way,the quidditch thing would have never happened because
if he wasn't Harry Potter, hewouldn't have had the rift with Draco Malfoy,
and then there would have been thereason he wouldn't go after Neville's Remember
remember it's and I think mcgonagall's likewhole like soft spot for Harry. You

(01:02:10):
can't tell me that it isn't alsopartially because he's the chosen one. He's
Harry Potter and she knew him asa baby. I'll give you the reason
that she had a soft spot.I don't I don't not gonna say that
if if he wasn't the chosen one, if she had seen that same scene
playout, that she wouldn't have offeredhim the position on quidditch. But I
think she was like motivated because he'sthe chosen one and because like she like

(01:02:30):
had a soft spot for him andwanted to see him kind of integrated into
doing something that he was obviously goodat because she knew what the situation was
like for him prior. Like,I think that it did play a role
into getting him the spot on thequidditch team, of him being honest,
and I'm talking about like not evenjust like that, but also his entire
assassin quidditch was help was propelled bythe fact that he's the chosen One,
and like it was also helpful thathe was good at it and it was

(01:02:52):
in his jeans. But I won'tsay that his his status of the chosen
one didn't get him like small perkshere and there, like being allowed to
have a broom as a first yearand you know, like just small little
details. I'm not saying that overallit like it wasn't a lot of like
craziness and you know, cockamami whateverwe want to call it all the time,
but like he had, like therewas some perks that came with his

(01:03:14):
status has chosen one here and there, like the girls wanting after him,
um cancer that they weren't flunny afterhim because he was the chosen one.
They definitely were, Like there waseven though the overallness of like of like
you know, the of like thetribe was a tournament sucked, there was
some positives and strewn in there likethat he got to experience some good moments
where people like were like praising himin a way that he actually like kind

(01:03:37):
of like didn't hate it. Likehe makes it seem like he really hates
it, but like, let's bereal, like he kind of ended up
liking at a times because he likedthe attention he got from the girls and
like things like that, like smallsmall little things all along the way that
I was like, yeah, likeit. It like doesn't make the Chosen
One satus all too horrible all thetime, because there were some good moments
here and there, Like no one'sgonna like no one, you know,

(01:03:59):
celebrit enjoy being celebrities but also hatebeing celebrities. Like it's kind of like,
you know, I was not asignificantly, they're not experiencing year death
experiences every every few months, butlike, you know, like he had
his moments where he enjoyed it,I would say, and they gave him
certain perks and like people like kindof turning up blind. Like he didn't
get in trouble with Ministry Magic forusing for using underage magic. I think
they would have gotten him in troubleif he wasn't the Chosen One. Wait

(01:04:23):
are you talking about it this multiplebooks book because he did get in trouble
in book two. In book three, he didn't get in trouble because they
thought Serious Black was after him,So that's not necessarily truth be told.
I think that even if Serious Blackwas not after whom he probably still would
have gotten someone of a path,because do you really want to be the

(01:04:44):
person who expelled the chosen when?So I do agree, Like I said,
I really was just curious, umand listeners. If you have any
other examples, I love that youbrought on because other stuff. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, I think otherpeople should chime in as well. I
think it's mainly that he probably shouldhave been expelled like seventeen times through his
time at Hogwarts, but because hewas Harry Potter, he like somehow wiggled
out of it every time. It'slike the main thing because but I feel

(01:05:08):
like also that's because it was literallydangerous for him to not be there sometimes.
Yeah, and Neville has basically thesame backstory and doesn't get half the
perks that Harry did or they tensioned. But Neville also didn't have to fight
Boldemort. Yeah, we don't reallywe can't really compare that either because we

(01:05:29):
don't we don't see Neville getting intoany like significant trouble like that. He
doesn't. He always like he getsyelled at for doing things that he doesn't
mean to do, like by Snapeespecially, but like he doesn't do anything
that like would explicitly cause him tobe in trouble because there's something he's doing
that's like breaking the rules per se. But if he had broken the rules,
I wouldn't even though he's not ChosenOne, I would. I would
still like to say that I thinkhe would be still dealt with us harshly

(01:05:51):
because people know his backstory and knowthe fact that like he's going he's really
going through it. Also like hestill has like his grandmother's I wouldn't say,
is that much better than the Dursleys, but any means at least has
a bit magic thing. But likeI still think they would have been like
you know, a little more understanding. I think Harry is Harry's position as
the Chosen One is the only reasonthat people turn on flying out also just
feel bad for him, And I'msure people still feel bad from Neville just

(01:06:15):
his background is a lot less,like you know, known compared to Harry.
It's just because of the level ofprolificness. But McGonagall and those Nevill's
background and example, he's really goodat hrpology, and I feel like no
one really like tries to make himfeel good about the fact that he has
one good thing he's good at,like how Harry's good at flying no and
she puts him on the team.Yeah, well that's again I think it's

(01:06:38):
just a level of favoritism of thechosen one versus the one that could have
been the chosen one. Also,we're talking about sports versus plants. Even
in real life, people or peopleare going to glorifye Yeah, like people
are going to glorify and at likebeing athletic over you know, yeah,
even though arguably it's probably a lotmore challenging to do herbology. I hate

(01:07:00):
the I hate the favoritism of sportsand school aspect. It's one of the
my least favorite things because my school, the Drawing Apartment, we got like,
like i'm gonna say, like acouple of thousands a year for funding
for all four of our shows,and then the sports team's got like like
tens of thousands of dollars and fundingsfrom New Year uniforms and everything every single
year, and we're just like,I love the favoritism worlds Like really,

(01:07:30):
but let's get back on topic toVernon, and I guess I think it's
really left off a lot of abusein TRAU and the topics. More to
come, guys, keep listening doesn'tstop here. Um. They talked about
a lot in episode twenty, Butum, do we think Harry was actually

(01:07:50):
abused physically by the Dursley start hislife? Brinon threatens to hit Harry,
But I was kind of offense ifI thought it was an empty threatter it's
actually something that happened in the past. What do you guys think? I
mean, I I they I knowthis is more of a movieism, but
like we know that they get handywith him. I'll put it that out.
They're like aren't afraid to kind ofgrab onto him and like yank him

(01:08:11):
away and like things like that.I wouldn't be surprised if they've hit him.
I don't know if I would saylike that, like they beat him
significantly. I don't think he wouldhave ever had to like go to the
hospital kind of extreme amount. ButI wouldn't be surprised that like stopped him
across the face or like you know, shoved him around or like things with
that, like or like Dudley likekind of like you know, rough House
with him, but like really it'shim getting like you know, unfairly like

(01:08:33):
beaten by DUDLEI kind of thing.I feel like it's like turning a blind
eye when Dudley would like kind ofhurt him or when it margined him with
her stick kind of thing. Ithink, I don't think it's anything like
horrible, like I said, likenothing hospital like hospital needing, but like
they definitely probably like were like morelike aggressive and physical with him, and

(01:08:54):
they should be. Yeah, Iremember this episode, and I remember there
was a fear very very very lengthydiscussion about there is there's a very it
was. I think this is oneof the great debates, is was Harry
physically abused and was he not?And I think, going back to what
Asher was saying, I also don'tpersonally believe it was ever a situation of

(01:09:15):
like you know, he was likeput in the hospital or anything like that.
But you know, we also madethe argument if you think of where
we are today in the world andwhere we were back then, like it
was a very normal thing and alot of households to like to like spank
your child or in my world calledto straight up an ass whooping or something
like that, or for like aparent to like pop you. So I
think that it's it's just it's justnot really a black or white type of

(01:09:40):
situation. And it also again itdepends on what you would call abuse.
Like there are people now they mightlike pop their child on the hand or
whatever, and there are some peoplewho were like, that's abuse, you
should never put your hand on achild, and other people who don't agree
with that. So I do Idon't doubt that there was some I think
we called it rough housing. Wellthey might like you know, grab him
or whatever, but I don't thinkanyone was ever like punching or kicking Harry.

(01:10:03):
I don't think those types of thingswere happening. Yeah, I can't
imagine Harry like stumbling around the blackeye or like like you know, bleeding
or something that I don't think Iever got to that, like where the
damage was that significant. In myopinion, they don't seem like they get
that. They don't. They're they'reemotionally violent, but I don't see them
being like physically violent like that.Also, I kind of don't even really

(01:10:25):
see Harry tolerating that, to behonest, And it maybe not like in
a sense of like he's gonna likesquare up with him and be like,
you know, like that, butI mean maybe even being more of him
running away, but I also,yeah, I don't I don't see Harry's
sticking around for that somehow, Idon't know exactly what he would do,
and especially obviously like he's like alot smaller, but um, yeah,

(01:10:46):
I don't envision it that way.I think Dudley does. Like, yeah,
like you were saying, I thinkhis friends and him like kind of
beat up on them a little bit. Yeah, but because they're the same,
I don't really look like that aslike, I mean, not this
someone can't abuse you. But that'sto me, that's like, okay,
they were he was bullied, butI mean as far as like in a
sense of like people who were older, who like mentally and emotionally no better

(01:11:10):
versus Dudley where unfortunately he doesn't eventhink that what he's doing is wrong.
Yeah. Agree, I think Icould see Vernon being like, oh,
yeah, you got him, ButI don't think he they like physically touched
him either. Yeah. I meanI kind of just questioned that Derse is
parenting in total, because I justdon't get, like, I know,
we talked to this up earlier.I don't get how like Petunia can like

(01:11:33):
not have any kind of paternal likelike emotion towards Harry, and because like
I feel like most people and obviouslyit's not always the case, but I
feel like most mothers have like apaternal instinct towards other children, especially someone
of that close of a relation toher, that's like her sister's child,

(01:11:55):
because like we know that like theydidn't Lily and Petunia didn't get along.
By I don't deny that that she'sstill obviously has is mourning her in some
way. Like it's like when Lilyis like kind of mentioned throughout this chapter,
like by like you know, auntMars, like Petunia like kind of
like doesn't respond, so she kindof like freezes up and like doesn't mention
anything. And I don't know ifit's because Petunia is more like a Baltimore

(01:12:15):
type really if they mentioned her name, like, or it's because, like
I think in some way she's stilllike is like like internally in a way
by like her sister being this theyou know, the subject of criticism as
opposed to like her son, likeit's okay to beat up on Harry and
like like you know, make funof Harry. But then when like Petunia's
own like own like direct relation ismentioned, it's kind of like, oh,
okay, I don't think Vernon wouldever like be like with like criticize

(01:12:40):
the lovely kind of thing. AndI just like I think in a way,
Dudley's like the way Dudley was raisedis still somewhat a form of abuse,
because over indulgence and like that levelof spoiling is still very abusive in
terms of the fact that like thechild, your child's gonna turn out like
very badly if that's the way ifthey live. And I still think it's

(01:13:00):
a way like a form of likenot great parenting. They're not like you
know, proprimanded your child or likelike you know, discipline them in any
way kind of thing. And Ithink he's going to end up like growing
up to like hate his parents becauseI think a lot of the reason he
hates Harry is a lot of brainwashing, because we see that he kind of
has a better arc later on becausehe's able to start thinking for himself.
But obviously there's a lot of likeideas shoved down a start about Harry and

(01:13:25):
how he should treat him and viewhim, because like they're like feeding literally
and mentally feeding him bad things.I have a soft spot for Dudley.
I kind of like, I thinkI read like a fan fiction or something
where they were saying that they thinkthat one of his kids grows up to
going to Hogwarts, And I don'tknow, I like that oh poetic justice

(01:13:45):
that Rachel it had. I thinkit was Rachel. He had some good
comments about yeah, the physical abuseof stuff. I listened to the episode
to episode twenty yesterday, and maybethat's why, like it really was coming
to mind. But honesty, evenbefore I listened to that episode, when
I was reading this chapter, II don't know necessarily like whether I I

(01:14:08):
think he actually was physically abused.Um, but I think, like and
maybe it's just like through my lens, like I'm a nurse, I'm a
mandated reporter, like I am trainedto like be able to identify like a
lot of red flags around abuse becausea lot happens like behind closed doors.
And I think like even if theywhether they like did or did not abuse

(01:14:31):
him, I think there are alot of like pretty significant red flags for
like the potential for physical abuse.I think, you know, we definitely
know that he's verbally and emotionally abusedpretty much throughout his life with the Dursleys.
M. We also know that Harrywas like neglected, underfed, um

(01:14:55):
even starved at times, like hewas shut up locked into his cupboard where
he couldn't you know, he isn'tgoing to get food for a week.
And granted, like he had somepretty good like survival tactics of like you
know, he'd listen for when theywent to bed and then he'd come out.
And he also has fighters. Imean, he has fighters. We
can't have that. I can onlyuse the bathroom leg twice a day,

(01:15:17):
yeah, yeah, exactly, orlike the in this is It the second
book where like they're putting like colda can of cold soup like through his
door, and like that's all hegets for the whole day. He has
to share it with Hedwig. Likewe know that there were times where he
had pretty significant like neglect and starvationUM, and like those kinds of things

(01:15:39):
have the potential to devolve into physicalabuse. And now whether it ever got
to that point, like it's notcanonical, you can't really like there's there's
not a whole lot of proof.Besides, like I guess that's debatable because
of the scenes where like you knowPetunia is like throwing a pan at Harry
and like, um, like,I guess that's debatable, but like,

(01:16:00):
I mean, there's even a linefrom Dumbledore in book five where he says
indifference and neglect often do much moredamage than outright dislike, And I think
that definitely honestly, like Dumbledore probablydidn't even have to say that to Harry
because I think Harry probably knows thatto be true. I think, you
know, if it didn't like,if if he wasn't physically abused, I
think it's likely that it would havedevolved into that. Like we were talking

(01:16:24):
earlier about like what would it havebeen like if Harry hadn't gone to Hogwarts.
I think if if he had beenpresent in the Dursley's house more as
he was growing up, I thinkit's likely that it could have gotten to
that point. But the other likekind of like red flagger like risk factor
that um, Harry had was andwe talked about this a little bit earlier,

(01:16:45):
was like he was very isolated,like to the point where like he
didn't you know, they hardly hadhim interacting with the neighbors, Like he
went I mean, he went overto like be with missus fig like very
rarely and like the nameghbors were likelike the neighbor kids were afraid of him
because of all of like the rumorsof him going to brutuses or whatever.

(01:17:06):
When he was in like primary schoolwith Dudley, like the other kids didn't
want to be friends with him becausethey were worried that Dudley was going to
beat them up. There just werelike a lot of signs that like he
wasn't close to a lot of people. And I think like that level of
isolation, like when that happens,I mean you think about situations where like

(01:17:26):
kids don't go to school, they'relike homeschooled or whatever. When kids are
isolated, that's definitely a risk factorfor abuse because people aren't around to notice
things. And like, again,I know this is like a really tough
topic, but like I think it'simportant to discuss as well, Like there
are a lot of things that happenbehind closed doors that are very difficult to

(01:17:47):
pick up on. And so likeI mean I guess like whether it actually
like happened, I mean, it'sa book, but like it is important
to note that sometimes there are riskfactors that are present that are very difficult
to identify, and so like,I mean, that's kind of the point.
Who knows whether he was physically abusedor not. But the other thing

(01:18:09):
that I noticed is Dudley's very mucha bully, which, like we know
he just is. He's just alittle jerk, and like that doesn't necessarily
mean anything, but he's like ata very young age beating up other children,
um, and and it kind ofbegs the question, like, is
it possible that he does that becausethat's what he sees being done to Harry

(01:18:30):
under his own roof. Um.I'm not saying that the answer is yes
or no, but I think it'sa valid question to ask. I mean,
like I have to like imagine whatkind of like like the home situation
because of Harry, it was alwayskind of like difficult, like match,
I have to like kind of imagineit's not easy to be like raised around
that level of indifference towards someone elsein your household. Like that's like it's

(01:18:54):
like being like, you know,being raised around someone like like in a
way, being raised around like twoparents that are state fighting, you know
all the time for like the firsthowever many years of your life until they
finally get divorced. Like I feellike it's very similar in terms of like
being stuck in a very like hostilesituation at times because they hate Harry so
much that like part of the reasonhe might act the way he acts because

(01:19:15):
he thinks that he's you know,appealing to what his parents want for him,
isn't afraid of what the latter wouldbe if he doesn't. He might
it might be partially fear because youknow people, you know, parents can
like kind of use their weaponize theirkids in a way like I couldn't imagine.
I can imagine that that they kindof like have been like ingrained in
him that he has to act theway they want him to act and like
be the child they want him tobe. Him like you know, be

(01:19:36):
horrible to Harry or they will dothe same thing to him, and he's
kind of like, you know,scared of that. I wouldn't be surprised
if that's partially the reason he isthe way he is. Um. I
would also say, you know,it's very it's the way Dudley is written
is essentially stupid. I don't saythat's what you mean. It's that I

(01:20:00):
mean. Harry even says it right, Like he's he's written to be a
character that's not that intelligent, andyou know, there's there's a lot of
I don't know, like quotes,theories, whatever out in the world that
you know it talks about the mindversus the body. Right, So if
you look at it from the perspectiveof someone who you know is not considered

(01:20:25):
really smart or really intelligent, butyou want to do something that is that,
I mean, what else are yougoing to do other than be people
up, Because it's not like he'sgonna go toe to toe gets Harry with
anything else, Like he's using whathe has this advantage, which based on
the way the story is written,is size. Like that is like the
one quote unquote advantage that Dudley has, Like if he's going to be mean,

(01:20:49):
according to the writing, he's notreally smart enough to do anything else,
Like he's not gonna necessarily do theselike really crafty like pranks or even
like words he does like you know, kind of pick on Harry a little
bit later in the book, likeoh when the whole thing with Cedric,
But it's not like Dudley is likea super witty person. So if you
also look at it from the perspectiveof what does he have that he could

(01:21:11):
use as a strength to overcome someoneelse. It's pretty much just his physical
size. It's survivals he's using.He's using the resources he has to survive.
Yeah, exactly versus like you know, um, almost sad. Dudley,
Vernon and Petunia. They are hisparents at this point, so they

(01:21:32):
have power. They have like themost power you know, while he's in
that house right Like they can starvehim, they can threaten, and they
can do all these things. LikeDudley, I mean, what else is
he gonna do to harry other tobeat mean or rude? There's nothing else
he's gonna do other than beat himup. Well, um, moving on
to us as the year getting toolovely on March. Also think it's funny

(01:21:58):
that I think everyone knows there's aand I says, and I say aunt.
But anyways, moving on. Onething that I thought was interesting is
and Asher. I had to gogoogle is to don't put bat. I
couldn't remember the entire name either.Why is Saint Brutus's secure center for incurably
criminal boys? Why is that evena name? Like I would just love

(01:22:19):
to know And I don't know ifthis was ever on pottern more or not.
But I'm like, what is yourmission statement? Because honestly, for
you to just I mean sounds madeup. I mean, your goal cannot
be to help people because by you, if someone invites you to something and

(01:22:41):
they literally are saying like there's nohelp for you, you are incurably criminal.
It's kind of like, so thenwhy am I even here? Like
what are they doing there? Isit just like are there just like cages
and you just sit there all day? Which I mean is terrible, But
I don't know, Like every timeI every time I read that and I
hear incurably criminal, I'm just likeshesh, I mean talk about being stripped

(01:23:04):
of any kind of like hope,positivity, anything. But I guess you
know this, it kind of goesalong with you know how anything with the
Dursleys is extremely like dramatized. SoI just wanted to point that out.
It sounds so it seems like burninglike it is like it's like I let
you throw as many buzzwords into thistitle as possible to make sure that it

(01:23:25):
really like makes sure that you knowthat he's a terrible kid, like just
not even just like a center forlike, you know, delinquent kids.
No, incurably criminal I know.I'm like, I'm sorry, Harry's a
criminal now like this it just escalated. So good is he at this age?
The car crash, he is thereason that his parents crashed the car.

(01:23:46):
Yeah, that's thirty. Tiny hereached his tiny little infant hands for
it to turn the wheel like thatand crashed them both. And that's why
he is incurably criminal. It feelsthat dramatic. Honestly feels like it is
tiny little baby festing a reach forward, grasped the car reel. Yeah,
yeah, they would, they would. They really went all the way with

(01:24:10):
that one. That's all I'm saying. And why is that the thing that
sets Harry off? Like all thething they say to him there, he's
like he kind of gets that's thefirst time he gets really angry when he
tells people he go into school.It's like, why does that surprised him
versus everything else? I think itwas probably more about at Marge than it
was the school. I think becausein general, to know how she feels

(01:24:30):
about him, it's like, nowyou're giving her more fuel and you know,
and again like to call Harry acriminal. It's like, you know,
you you can treat me all ofthis, you know whatever, but
to try to make it seem likeI'm a bad person, I don't know.
I'm kind of like that, LikeI'm the kind of person who,
like I respect brutal honesty a lotmore than like there's this saying and I

(01:24:51):
will, I will clean it upfor this podcast, but it's something along
the lines of like you can tinkleon my face, but don't tell me
it's raining. That's kind of howI feel and like in this, like
in this scenario of like at thevery least be willing to admit that you're
like a bad person, but likedon't try to flip it. So I
feel like maybe that's kind of howI read it, Like you're gonna call

(01:25:13):
me a criminal, like you're literallythe child abuse, the child neglect and
all of that, but you're goingto say that I am a thirteen year
old incurable criminal, Like and youwant me to confess this to someone who
hates me, Like nah, Imean, yeah, she would have got
blown up a last owner and hadthat of it me nineteen ninety nine,

(01:25:33):
Like there's no way this school wouldexist with this name. Oh yeah,
no, no, yeah, absolutelynot. I don't see aunt Marge's being
a fact checker ass. You'd probablyjust like get makes sense. Yeah,
I'll buy it. And also itseems like weirdly enough the Dursley's or no,
no, no, because she's no, she is a Is her last

(01:25:54):
name Dursley? Do we know?Is that confirmed? Yeah? I think
she's Yeah, I think so.Um, they're obviously close and like they
really love and trust each other,which is I guess nice? And what
her last nabe Dursley is? Itwasn't? Was it not imply ma'am ron?
Was it imply that she was originallymarried? At one point she liked
somebody? But yeah, that colonelguy like colonel guy. Yeah, but

(01:26:16):
filibuster. No his name, thatwasn't his name. It wasn't his name,
but you know that guy. Imean, but she's a piece of
to wisiting world. It's Marge Dursley, Okay, okay? Is a subster?
Was that was the guy? Lastname? Wasn't? It wasn't.

(01:26:40):
I don't remember. I think it'ssubster because a filibuster is something to do
with uh some kind of I kindof like that better colonels colonel what subster
pubster pubsterlubster lobster flubster. Wow?Is that supposed to be another fat joke?

(01:27:03):
Oh? Probably yeah, flubber vibes. This chapter is super stuff.
I was also supposed to like assumethat Aunt Marge is breeding like fighting dogs
kind because that's what I'm kind ofgetting. I was wondering that too.
I was like, I feel likebulldogs are so sweet, so like reading

(01:27:23):
this, I was like, Wow, they're just normally just kind of like
chunky and slow. And the waythat she mentioned like having that colonel drown
that one God Asher, I don'ttalk about it like she's she's breeding fight
dogs, like that's what she's doing, because on Wisney World she made it
a correction. She said, Iregret making Aunt Marge a breeder of bulldogs,

(01:27:45):
as I now know them to benon aggressive breed, but she picked
them because they look grumpy and itseemed like it would suit Aunt Marge.
I guess even when we think aboutthe name bulldog, you know, you
could argue that they sound aggressive,although some of us would that there are
no such thing as aggressive breeds,but that could be for another podcast or
another day, but no pool dogsdog them aggressive. I mean, well,

(01:28:10):
there it is because she's aggressive.But if anyone could do it,
it's March. Yeah. Yeah,agreed for sure. I mean I think
all dogs have the any animal Woden'sjust say dogs, any animal has the
most animals have the chance to beaggressive and given the right, but the
right raising, like the way thatthey're raised. Yeah, just like a
human. Yeah, so I meanshe's raising these dogs in a very aggressive

(01:28:34):
and competitive environment. Just sounds likeshe is that she probably makes them fight
over all of the Like she probablyputs one plate of food down and they'll
have to fight for it. Yeah, she's probably like you know, she's
like it's the equivalent of like peopleplaying the SAMs. Like she like enjoys
like the the like you know,competition of like controlling the competition of the
dogs and like the best one winskind of fans like whoever gets out of

(01:28:57):
the pool kind of thing. Youknow, Like, sorry, why I
don't know wine making a Sims reference. Like, So one other thing that
I was wondering is this whole likeHarry Headwig relationship. So Harry literally goes
in there and of course he talksthe headwig all the time, but he
goes there and he says that shelooked at him with these quote unquote reproachful

(01:29:17):
eyes after after he told her,like, you know, we need you
to scadaddle for a little bit.And I'm just wondering, is it ever
confirmed just how much owls know.I know that like in real life they're
not really intelligent, but obviously inthe Harry Potter series there they are.
And I'm just kind of wondering howmuch do we think Headwig really understands because

(01:29:44):
and I know, I like kindof made a note in here that was
kind of a joke about like mydog. I like, sometimes I feel
like my dog will look at mewith reproachful eyes, although in reality,
I know he's not really judging.But obviously, you know, the animals
are smart. Like if I grabbedmy suitcase oide of the closet, I'm
telling my dog knows I'm got togo somewhere, He's like not happy,
like it's we know that you knowour cats know? Yeah exactly, so

(01:30:05):
you know, but to say somethingsuper specific like hey, I need you
to go, like are they Imean, are they really that intelligent?
Like does she actually understand everything?And obviously we're theorizing because do we really
have the answer to this? Idoubt it. I feel like he personifies
her a lot more than I thinkshe even is, like characterized in not

(01:30:28):
in real life, like in theWizarding World. I think because it's like
the only friend he has when he'snot at school, that he's kind of
like, you know, trying tomake it seem like she's more of a
of a interactive being than she reallyis, because I somehow doubt that anyone
else personifies their owl that much,and I don't know if I would.

(01:30:49):
I don't know if I really believethat the owls have that much like individuality,
Like they obviously at some level oflike understanding, because like they know
what they're like, they know likeif when someone says something like you're gonna
go like go fly to Ron,they know that like who Ron is,
and presumably Errol will know who Harryis more to go for Harry. But

(01:31:10):
like birds, I mean, obviouslyit's carry your pigeons really worked, so
that's kind of a mood point.But like they know that much, but
I somehow don't know if they reallyare as personified to everyone else's Harry makes
it out to be for the sakeof happening, a friend, a friend
of some sort. Yeah, Andthe other thing I'm wondering is, in

(01:31:31):
theory, wouldn't an owl prefer tobe like out flying, probably at the
borough where there's a lot more foodfor them and just appreciation versus being stuck
up in a crate in a bedroomwhere you're getting like nasty cold do So,
I mean, I'm not saying thatHeadbook doesn't love Harry. Obviously Headbook

(01:31:51):
does love Harry, so it doesmake sense. I mean again, like
you're a pet, right, Like, you're a pet wants to be by
your side no matter what you're doing. Right in theory, sometimes they do
get a little antisocial. You're like, why are you leaving? But but
for the most part, your petdoesn't want to be by your side.
But when he said that, Iwas like, really, head Be doesn't

(01:32:11):
want to leave because I'd be like, hey, bye, see you in
a week. Well, you wouldn'thave to even win. He's like,
I'm gonna need you, and she'slike it's already already, like already got
Yes, That's how I would envisionit like, Okay, you're probably on
something there. I think it's likethe stupid bars, move the bars.

(01:32:38):
Let's struggling out behind him. Idon't go. Yeah, No, Arrow's
like trying to struggle to keep upwith a head wigs. He just can't
do they say how old head wigis? Do we ever find that out?
Or no? Like even when hefirst got her, definitely died prematurely.
I think she had quite a fewyears left when she died. Okay,

(01:33:00):
Yeah, I just I'm like,I mean, I'm assuming she's a
fairly young owl, but I'm notthinking about it. I guess we don't
have any proof of that. Yeah, I'm not sure, which is curious
what the age gap was between herand Arrow, because snowy owls can live
up to twenty eight years in captivity. Wow, so she died extremely pleanmaturely.
Well, we don't know that becausefor all we know she was twenty

(01:33:20):
seven. We have no idea shewas. I wouldn't say, well,
it doesn't say in the book,but in the movie isn't. And it
seemed like she wasn't. That wasn'ta full outlet. She seemed like she
was at least a few years old, So I don't have to say that
she probably died like twenty years prematurely, maybe a little less, yeah,
I would. I would guess that, which really sucks. That's what makes

(01:33:41):
her death a little more even sadderis that she was like, had a
lot of time left with Harry,Rest easy, Hedwig Forever in our hearts,
salute plus left of pay respects.So why do we think Marche dislikes
Harry so much? She sees themtwice a year, and like, well,
I would kept pretting this is likewhy don't they just keep him away
while he's whilst he's there? Itjust seemed like they're kind of like trying

(01:34:04):
to make conflict between the two andit seems unnecessary. I feel like they
get off from the fact that,like someone else other than them can throw
even more creative insults at Harry thanthey have. Like they're probably like running
on really old material now, likeit's like, oh, we can bring
the guests writer. They only havelike twice a year to come in and
like rate some new material for uskind of thing. I agree with that,

(01:34:24):
But going back to Tracy's point,I think that now that Harry is
older and he's kind of showing thathe's a little bit more you know,
sassy, and a little bit morewilling to stand up for himself and he
was before. It does also surpriseme that they wouldn't just like send him
to Miss Big because I feel likebefore it wasn't really that much of a
risk, you know, he didn'tknow he was a wizard, etc.
But now now that he's a littlebit more armed and he has more leverage,

(01:34:47):
I am also surprised that they wouldn'tjust, you know, make him
disappeared. I think Rachel lad evenhad a comment earlier about the whole Saint
Brutis's thing of like, well,if he's there, then why is he
even home right now? Right?So? I mean, I think we
know the ultimate answer is it's forthe plot, Like we know the answer.
But I also was wondering that exactsame thing. I was like,
why wouldn't they just if you're sodetermined, like you better behave But I

(01:35:11):
tell her anything, it's like youcould have easily solved that it just sent
him away. But yeah, Ialso sincerely doubt that, in the event
that Harry had not caused any issuesthat entire week, she was staying there.
I don't think Vernon would have everended up signing the submission slip anyway.
Agree. I was like, yeah, I don't think he would ever
willingly, even if Harry is stuckto his part of the deal, had

(01:35:35):
signed that slip, it would havehad to be like when Marge was still
there, like Harry would have hadto be like it's her last day here,
like before she leaves, you haveto sign this otherwise, like it's
all going it's all going up rightnow. Yeah, exactly. I agree,
it's all blowing up right now.Literally. Yeah, no, I
agree with that, Tracy. Yournext line has me I'm not gonna lie

(01:35:58):
roll my eyes a little bit here. I'm like, Okay, I was
trying to give them a little bitof credit. I feel like they did
take in two children all at once, and just like raising two kids that
once must not have been the easiestthing. When they didn't take into they
only took in one the other onewas there. Yeah, but then like
they're you know, doubling their numberof it. I just I'm curious how

(01:36:21):
they treated baby Harry, because it'show it's like, how do you neglect?
Curious and frightened to know at thesame time, Yeah, like where
did the baby? Did the babyharry asleep? Yeah? I don't know.
Yeah, but I don't. Idon't give them any credit for that
because I kind of I kind offeel like it's people who were like teachers
and they are like I am very, very self aware to the point where

(01:36:45):
I know I was not meant tobe a teacher, not in like a
classroom. I don't. I justI don't have the patience in general,
I don't have I don't really havethe patience for um children and a lot
of scenarios and that's okay, LikeI'm not gonna go try to be a
teacher. And like my sister isthe nurse, and you know, like
I hear like really horrible things aboutlike some nurses that like they don't take
care of their patients and they're they'rejust like lazy or they you know,

(01:37:08):
won't go check on them in etc. And like those are the kind of
things that really Um who used tosay grinds my gears was that family guy?
Um? It just it really it'sreally infuriating to me because it's like
if you don't you don't get tobe like, oh I took you in
so so now I get to bea butthole, like no, like like

(01:37:29):
he probably would have been better offin an orphanage, like he probably won't
probably not be a stretch, Imean at least fifty fifty chance, Like
I mean that he would have gottentreated better in um. Even if you
argue, like where where Tom Riddlewas that? We know that was not
a bad place. Sure it wasprobably not like a super fun place,
but he was never again like yeah, like based on what we know,

(01:37:54):
like he was kind of the buttholethere. He was messing with the other
kids, right, So you shouldhave took him to an orphanage, aman,
like here you go, because youclearly did not want to be his
parent. To take him in justto treat him like that makes you even
worse than deciding to give him away. In my opinion, why didn't they
though, because like you said inthe other note, they get off on

(01:38:15):
being buttholes. I think Petunia waslike, here's my chance, Oh Lily,
oh, this is Lily son,Lily the Golden Child. Give him
here, like I'm sorry, Ijust and it's kind of abusive to like
hold it over his head and belike, well, I took you in
so therefore, and Marge was sodramatic about that, like, oh they

(01:38:40):
were so kind, you know yourparents just your parents went off and died
and left you with these decent people. And I'm just like, Brah,
this is delusion on a whole otherlevel right here. Thinking about the nurse
who was caring for baby Harry isactually like guy game maybe because I'm just

(01:39:00):
like sort did like Petunia like breastfeedhim too, Like where did she like
you know, refuse like but shewas he almost I don't think breed Dudley.
Well, luckily he's one, soat least he made it that fun
because I'm not sure what's like didthey check up like they just want him
cry it out? Like was hesleep the end of the stairs the whole
time? Like the scar isn't actuallyfrom Voltimore's Actually no, you can't ignore

(01:39:31):
a baby either. That's gonna cutLike I just yeah, I surprised,
like Rachel was saying that he madeit to adulthood or not adulthood, but
to eleven. Yeah, there's somethere's some significant like m like do they
have like a higher living nanny justlike care for them? Like un totally
here. I don't know who knowscan they afford a nanny. I've always
been curious about how much money theDarleys have, Like where do they fall?

(01:39:54):
Are they middle class? I'd sayupper middle class? Upper middle Okay,
there are literally studies and I'm like, I didn't look any of these
up or anything, but like andand maybe like it was better because he
was a little bit older. Um, but like if you, I mean,
if you leave babies to cry,it's really really sad. I don't
even know if I should say this, but like if you leave babies to
cry, like they'll if they cried, they won't get what they need,

(01:40:16):
so they'll just lie. And thatdoesn't mean that they don't need anything,
which is really sad. But that'skind of how I like imagine hanging,
Like he just learned that like cryingwasn't gonna crying, or like fussing wasn't
going to meet his needs, andso he just like didn't, which is
really sad. Oh does that doesthat mean? Like? Is that and

(01:40:40):
in opposition of the idea that ifa baby is crying when you try to
put them to sleep, that youshould let them cry it out, as
opposed to like going in and likehuddling them every time I start crying or
is that aside? I think it'sless extreme, Like this is like a
more on a more extreme level,where like they're like intentionally ignoring them all
the time. Yeah, because Iknow that. But that process, because
is like highly recommended a lot oftimes. If a baby won't go to

(01:41:02):
sleep on their own, just countlet them cry themselves to sleep. It's
like still controversial. I think that'sa very controversial. Yeah, but it's
on like this is on like amuch more like neglectual level. I think
that's what my parents did of methough, So I'm talking about all of
the horrible things. I'm sorry,no episode it's like dark and like not

(01:41:25):
even in like the like evil BoulderWark way, but it's still just like
a really yeah, it's just it'sit just shows that like they're like the
odds of Harry's survival rate if thiswasn't a book, a fantasy book would
have been like so much lower.Oh yeah for sure. Yeah, Like
the prospects would not be in veryhigh if this was like a legitimate situation.

(01:41:46):
She moved on to talking about AuntMarge as a whole let's do.
It's our one thing that stuck outwith me that like she gives him donk
biskets for Christmas, Like who givesan actual child dog biscuits for Christmas?
And the fact that like Fetinia ashis aunt, Like I know, we

(01:42:06):
keep talking about this, but likePetinia is just it's just a weird character.
Like I just don't get why shedoesn't have any sort of tiny bit
of like feeling bad about these things. I mean, I don't know if
Petinia was there when that thing happenedwith the dog chasing him up a tree.
But when you say, like,oh, she would give him dog
biscuits, I'm like, brush,she literally let a dog chase him.
Like, can we just like takea moment to acknowledge how petrified it would

(01:42:28):
have to be to run from reallyany animal that like you know, could
like physically harm you. I mean, shout, I couldn't even get up
a tree. I'd just man,I'd have to just fight it. I'm
always impressed with people in movies andshows that run. I'm like, nah,
I'm hiding or I'm fighting that runningthing. That's not going to work
out for me. I'm just happyto take my chance. When I was

(01:42:49):
younger, my friends I live acrossthe street from me, has had a
beagle, And there was one pointin time where she like was like on
edge weirdly for like a few weeksand she knew me for like ever.
And one day we're out and theyare playing and she just like goes like
like runs at me and lunges atmy at my arm and like I like

(01:43:09):
lift my arm up out of theair and she like literally jumped up after
my arm and tried to snap atmy arm. And they had like a
tree house. It was like ahouse they built on onto the tree,
but like it wasn't really a treehouse, like it wasn't relying on the tree
as the foundation. Uh. AndI like had to hide up there because
she like she was like like Iran up to the treehouse because she was
like chasing after me, trying tobite me. For some reason. Happened

(01:43:31):
again, Wow, that's on again. After that, but she like went
was like like like her feral likeher ferreal era that day and she was
like she was going like she knewme for like like a year or two
at least before that, and likethat one day she was just like there
was something up and she like likelike darted at me, and like like
I knew she was going from myarm. I went like this and like

(01:43:53):
literally she like jumped up out ofthe air like I like tried to snap
my arm and think I moved itfast enough, and I'm like, what
was going on? I'm a fewgirl, And it was fine, that's
horrible. Beagles are crazy. Andthen she ended up getting like super fat
and to the point of what shecould not to the chapter like a small

(01:44:15):
little gate like gap in between thefence and the gate, and she got
so fat that she couldn't like makeit more than a few feet without even
take a breath. And I'm like, girl, at least she stopped running
away. She couldn't run away anymoreafter that full circle the chapter. You
know, I think it's interesting thatMark is like even worse than Vernon,

(01:44:36):
because like Vernon's pretty darn bad um. And I mean I think she's I
think I've read somewhere that she's theolder like older sister. Is that right?
Yeah, I want to say,yeah, I'm just really curious about
like what their childhood was like,and like I don't know if I mean

(01:44:57):
like, I think it's pretty obviousthat like their physical needs are met.
Obviously they were fed and like takingcare of. But like I just want
to know, Like they talk aboutcorporal punishment all the time. They're like
I'm full support, They're like thedeath penalty and like threatening to beat Harry
and um, you know Marge islike super obsessed over Harry getting beatings at

(01:45:17):
Saint Brutus is Like I just reallywant to know. Is this like a
scenario where like they were like corporallypunished and like they have like that mentality
of like, well my parents didn'tme and I turned out great, So
like that's where this is coming from. Or are they just like that,
Like I just I'm really curious becausewe know so much about we know so

(01:45:42):
much about like Petunia, and wejust don't know anything about like Vernon and
what made Vernon the way that heis because he's just the worst. Yeah,
No, that's fair. Um Iwould I would assume that that was
something that they experienced for sure.Again, like generational use and trauma being
passed only doing the same things yourparents did, even if you promise not

(01:46:04):
too, because that's the like thereaction you learned was the way to get
results kind of thing. And that'sthere, like that that was like what
they learned as like okay, Iwouldn't be surprised if they were also like
physically abused and kind of see thatas like the way as at the end,
I'll be all way of like gettingyour child to listen to you,
or like you know, or likedisciplining anyone in essensially the death penalty like

(01:46:26):
they like him. That's like,oh, like you know, harsh,
harsh like punishment like you know,it gets better results kind of thing.
Yeah. One question that I hadis does Harry really think that he would
get expelled for breaking a glass?I also had a question where I was
wondering was it confirmed that it washim who broke the glass? I know
there was that moment where he waslike, oh, I better chill before

(01:46:49):
it gets any worse. But doesthat mean that we're positive? Because low
key and whenever Marge was like,oh that happened a few weeks ago,
I was like, dang, she'sjust like out here just like close round
glasses like it's normal. So isthey confirmed that it was definitely Harry who
did that? I think it's alittle bit too. I'm not sure if
it's confirmed. Okay, I thinkit's you know, open ended in the

(01:47:09):
sense that we really don't know ifit was him or not. I mean,
and after him being at Hogwarts fortwo years, yeah, which is
I guess is enough, right,even after him being at Hogwarts for two
years. I don't know why.Whenever I was reading this time around,
I was like, why would youthink you would get expelled for that?
But maybe I'm maybe I do realizethat it was later on in this exact
book where Fudge was like, oh, you know, we don't put people

(01:47:32):
in ascaban for blowing up their aunts, So maybe maybe it's a little bit
premature for me to think that hewould know that, Hey, these accidental
things happen with young wizards. Ijust remember thinking, like, to think
that you would be kicked out ofschool for that. Then again, there
was the whole thing with Dobby andthe hover charm. That was my thought
too, though, Like I reallywas wondering, like even with blowing up

(01:47:54):
an marked, like would that besomething that he was expelled for? I
know they brought it up like muchlater and they were like, well he
did this, and they were like, yeah, but you let him go
on that. But like realistically,I know, like until they're eleven and
until they go to Hogwarts, likethey kind of let it go. But
like it just seems kind of crazyto me that they would then take a

(01:48:15):
thirteen year old who's only two yearsolder and say like, oh, because
you lost control in your like pubescentemotional state, like we're going to expel
you from Hogwarts. Like it justseems kind of aggressive. Where Like,
I mean, there have to besituations like this, It can't just be
hairy where like teenagers lose their coolfor sure, magic unintentionally, not with

(01:48:38):
their wands. And he's just newteenager too, he so has like he
still has a few more years ofteenage emotions. He's just now entering into
that. So yeah, I completely, I completely agree with that. I
think it might also depend on thecircumstances of the situation because like his response

(01:48:58):
wasn't anything like that violent or likeyou know, malicious, Like it was
just like a like a defense responseto like the situation at hand. Well,
I'm sure there's like situations of likepeople. I'm sure Tom is probably
an example. I can't remember ifit is, is directly or not of
like people like getting upset and reactingin a way that ends up hurting the
other party like significantly because of theway that they're magic manifests. So I'm

(01:49:21):
sure that the situation ain't like thereason that they were so like it's,
oh, don't worry about it's like, you know, acting the magic isn't
like a big thing. Also becauselike it didn't cause any like legitimate damage
to March, Like she was fine, that didn't cause any legitimate damage.
Yeah, because of the memories whatwell, Yeah, I'm just saying like
like I'm just saying like it wasn'tlike she got like significantly burnt or like

(01:49:42):
you know, like or it waslike you don't really really hurt like she
like you know, a couple coupleyou know, hours in the air.
That's not that bad. You're justinflating and like floating away into the world.
Not that big of Yeah, lookingback, looking back, it was
actually kind of fun. She wentinto orbit for a little bit. Yeah,

(01:50:06):
just some of us dream of that. You know, I'm surprised there
wasn't like a joke about like howlike you know, because she was like
up in the air, like shecaused like gravitational like change. Oh my
god, there probably is kind oflike they really could have like you know,
nailed home like the whole, likeyou know, the fat joke,
and that really could have. Likeoh, well, you didn't really cause

(01:50:26):
any significant damage to like your aunt, like don't worry, but you did
cause the rotation of the sun togo out of whack for just there was
an elise like but we did,like I will, we will have to
blame climate change on this, likeon this issue that you caused the ant
because it caused the whole like youknow, Universe, you got a whack

(01:50:49):
for minute because you sent someone ofthat mass up into space. But sometimes
we got ro Harry, don't worryabout it. You're the chosen one.
It's okay. I find it sofunny that very um maybe Harry. He
was like he was grabbing Harry andsaying, like to come back here,
like make her right, and Iwas like, dude, you do not

(01:51:09):
want to do that. Like he'she's like even more emotional now like if
he first of all, he doesnot know the magic to get her back
to normal, but also like ifhe went into that room, like she'd
be dead like there's he would dosomething even worse to her rather than like
helping this situation, like he's gottago someone else needs to deal with,
Like, yeah, that's fair.Um, should we talk about snarky Harry

(01:51:34):
for a little bit. Let's talkabout snarky Harry. I love snarky Harry.
I like the part where Vernon askedDudley if he wants to come get
Marge and Dudley says now, andthen Harry he thinks that Harry wants to
come, and Harry's just like he'slike, I'm not taking you, and
Harry's like, like I wanted tocome. I love that so much,
oh man, just the growth,the growth. Yeah, he's learned,

(01:52:00):
and to stand him always like you'retrying to reiterate that, and him trying
to reiterate that, like he'll becivil if she is, like only if
she is if she is nice,like kind of thing like and how like
Vernon just kind of ignores it.And that's also another reason why I was
saying I don't really think that Harrywould tolerate physical abuse because he just even
like even like you were saying,um, I believe Asher was you who

(01:52:23):
was saying earlier about like his liketrauma responses like typically if someone like that
would result in someone who would likecower from you, like but you're afraid
to say anything back, And thefact that he was just clapping back.
I was like, yeah, Harry, Yeah, Harry, he's a wizard
now, he really we talked.He's got that leverage now because they're afraid

(01:52:45):
of him. It's like, Ikilled Baltimore three times already. I don't
need to care about what you guysthink at all. Also, this is
completely unrelated to him, and tobring it up earlier, But do we
think that Petunia knew whose Serious Blackwas Because I doesn't. It doesn't really
give us any textual evidence to knowwhether or not she does or not.
Like they opposite like are making passingcomments about him, and obviously Vernon has

(01:53:08):
no idea who he is. ButI said, but the way she kind
of like was like looking out thewindow at the mention of his name kind
of gave me the impression that shekind of knew who he was. Like
it's it seems like her response waslike very like like trying not to like
seem like she was really worried aboutit. But like she was like not
like she was barely like like entertainingVernon's like whole like criticization of the way

(01:53:29):
he looks, because like I feellike it's seem like I'm kind of a
nervous like I know who that iskind of thing, Like I think she
like kind of knew that like hemight have been he was the reason that
her sister is dead. Like Ifeel like she knew. I don't see
her knowing because by the time Lilywent to Hogwarts, to my knowledge her
and puts when you and Ever closeagain, And Lily didn't even really start
like rocking with James until she hadbeen in Hogwarts for a year or so.

(01:53:53):
Um, I don't. I don't. I don't imagine that they would
know each other. I feel likethat's fair. But I also feel like
it's possible that well, she knew, so she knows some amount of information
she knew. It's implied that theyknow who Voltimore is. Like this imply
that she knows that that's who likekind of killed her sister and her husband.

(01:54:15):
Is it that, like, uhyou mean like specifically tied to like
the story of like what happened?Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see
what you mean. I wouldn't.I don't think it's unfathom ole for her
to like know, like, oh, like, well they had a friend
Sirius Black that might like I hada friend named Sirius Black or Black that
might have been like the reason thatlike kind of found out where my sister
was and her husband were living.Like I feel like she might have known
the name, and that's why shewas like so like you know, like

(01:54:38):
kind of like distant from the wholeconversation of like of when he escaped in
the whole like news stories, likebecause she like kind of knows who that
is really passing. She knows thatshe recognized the name of someone that like
kind of betrayed her sister and herhusband. She may not care that much,
but she obviously cares enough for herto be kind of be concerned.
We know that. Yeah, Soyeah, I guess my last point to

(01:54:59):
wrap this up a little bit isa there's so many mentions of dogs in
this chapter, Like every time Marchspeaks, she's referred to as barking.
She breeds dogs for a living,She got the hairry the dog biscuits.
She calls hit Lily a bit Harrya pup um. I was looking up
like symbolism in literature, and usuallydogs are supposed to me like fidelity,
faithfulness, protection, um, butthen here it's just the complete opposite.

(01:55:24):
So it's just kind of curious whyyou guys think there's so much dog mentions
here? Is it kind of aany want to include yell? I should
say it's a bookend to the factthat like the dogs are mentioned here,
which are like kind of alluding tooserious in a way that interesting. I
would not have I would I wouldnot have made that connection. Possibly.

(01:55:45):
I think that it's not out ofcharacter for the author to, you know,
compare people to animals. It justdepends like the Dirsley, so like
the pig, excuse me, likethe pig and the horse, and you
have like Snape is like the bat, and I think I just think that
when it comes to Marge, it'sit's the dog like that. That's what
kind of came up for me becauseI was going to, like, you

(01:56:06):
know, obviously, if it's alludingto series, it's kind of giving us
a context of like, oh,Harry doesn't have the best relationship with dogs
because of the experiences he had withant Mars and like you know, the
dogs that she owns. And thenlike you know him then like shortly after
this scene, like what he thoughtwas like a you know, like a
like a wolf of some sort likestaring at him like you know, yeah,

(01:56:28):
this kind of thing like you cankind of make us think like,
oh, well, maybe that's him, like you know, turning that like
his this bit of trauma into likesomething he's like you know, seeing like
like hallucina a bit like a youknow, stress hallucination kind of thing,
like kind of like making us thinglike oh, it's like kind of tied
to the Aunt Marge thing just kindof like you know, give us an
illusion to like what's about like twowho we're going to meet, but also

(01:56:48):
like trying to keep us off thetrail in the same way, like thinking
like oh, it's just Harry's kindof response like the trauma we saw and
heard him talk about earlier in thebook kind of thing, or maybe even
for shattering of just like of what'sto come. Um, you know,
they're most of the I mean,I think and I think this is what
you know. Tracy is pointing outall of the dog compares as in this

(01:57:10):
chapter are negative. So then wheneverHarry sees the dog, which is serious,
like we in our minds like sheit's it's like the seeds that dogs
are bad are being planted in ourhead. And so then whenever we see
a dog, it's like, youknow, it's not the original thing,
which a lot of us would feellike, all a doggie, it's like
it's it's kind of like setting thestage for dogs are bad, dogs are

(01:57:33):
scaried, etc. Yeah, that'swhat's gonna say, Like A maybe it's
just trying to fake the reader out, like don't trust dogs, the dogs
aren't great. And then at theend, oh, actually it's ends up
being his you know, god bothering, he's great, so you should trust
dogs. He ends up getting thecompanionship that you should be getting from a
dog from Serious who also happens tobe a dog. That's true. Yeah,

(01:57:53):
they're playing off on the like bothof the two different competing symbolism is
in there, all right, So, um, Rachel don a close to
start with your point. Sure,Um, I just kind of the whole
chapter was under the impression that Petuniajust like is not a huge fan of
March. Like I kind of thinkshe just tolerates and like, I'm amazed
at March is there for a week, but like, I think she just

(01:58:15):
tolerates her because like Vernon kind ofruns that show. But I'm just curious
as to like whether you guys alsogot that impression, like she just doesn't
like the she doesn't like the cleanlinessissue. She doesn't like. But she's
also like, I don't know,I kind of I kind of just get
the impression that she just doesn't likehaving her around. Even the way it
said that they bumped cheeks, right, it's like everyone else got like a

(01:58:38):
hub and it was like it's likethe formalities, Oh my god, I
just I love to envision that righttime. It makes me laugh. I
think she does not like Marge fora number of reasons. First of all,
I think Marge is judging towards nonheavy set people, which I might

(01:59:00):
out of be out of some sortof like jealousy of some sort, because
obviously it's a familial, generational likepartial part playing into the reason that they're
that she's like heavy set coming fromsomeone of that same generational you know,
having heavier parents and things with that, like, you know, it makes
sense that she might have some kindof like, you know, um jealousy

(01:59:23):
towards non heavy set people because ofthat, because you see her kind of
like that being her one of hercriticisms of Harry, and you know,
she says that, you know,Dudley is gonna make a perfect man because
he's you know, because he's like, you know, thicker as opposed to
Harry, who's like getting in scrawny. Like that was like a big complaint
of hers, which is like,you don't see that a lot. Usually
it's the opposite. But she,in her circumstance, you know, that's

(01:59:44):
the reason that she does like oneof the complaints about Harry, and the
same ghost for probably Petunia is sheprobably has that same kind of like disdain,
although not expressed expressed outwardly. Ialso think that she's the only one
that I think is able to mentionLily in the household and not get orated
for it. I do, forsome reason, think that there is a

(02:00:05):
band on Vernon passing judgment on Lilyand James and not just being the criticism
being directed at Harry. Even thoughthey didn't get along, it's still there's
this I feel like there is there'sa sister bond that you're kind of like
like have internalized that, Like Idon't think she would like be okay with

(02:00:26):
consistent like jabs at her sister regardlessof how she thought about her. I
think it would kind of like twingeat her like familial blood like sister bond
type of thing, because they didn'talways hate each other. It became a
lot worse when Lily was a witchand she wasn't kind of thing. So
I think that's a lot of ittoo. Is Marge, like you know,

(02:00:46):
makes passing comments about things that otherwisewouldn't be allowed to be said,
but because Petunia is too nice tokeep him, wants to keep appearances,
and she doesn't say anything, butI think she has you know, I
think there's at times where I thinkshe obviously feels that Marge goes off board,
which even though she doesn't say anythingout loud, like it's like like,
why doesn't she say anything out loudand say like hey, like it's

(02:01:08):
a lot and it's enough. Butobviously she will never do that. But
I think that there's a lot ofinternalize like, oh, I know this
is wrong, but I'm not goingto do anything about it, because what
can I do. And yeah,even that awkward pause whenever Aunt Marge was
and then I know this was thisis more about James and Lily, but
even that awkward pause would never shewas like, oh what did he do

(02:01:29):
again? And then it was likeit got kind of quieted. Vernon was
like, oh he didn't work likeor you know whatever. It was like
that pause of like and of courseI could also be tied to, oh,
he actually didn't really do anything wrong. Let me try to make something
up. But regardless, I Rachel. I loved at this point because that
has always been very intriguing to mebecause you know, normally Vernon and Petunia

(02:01:53):
are very like aligned on everything.So I just thought I loved that gray
area of like, oh, herewe can actually see something related to Vernon
where Petunia does not agree and youknow, something that I was thinking about
earlier when we were when we firststarted this episode. We don't have to
dive into it, but listeners,I would love, love love to know

(02:02:13):
your opinions is do have we hasn'tever been discussed why Petunia was made to
be thin and not and not likeheavy like Vernon and Dudley. That would
be like questioned like Part A,Part B would be would the story be
any different if they were all heavy? Like I mean, and I don't

(02:02:35):
know if maybe it's because again,you know, we kind of talk about
like weaight stigma and how you know, people who are heavier can be like
perceived as like you know, morelike you know, slappy, or maybe
not as cleaner whatever. Maybe maybeit was like, oh, well,
we can't have her be heavier andalso be a clean freak. I don't
know, I'm just I'm just verycurious about what you guys's thoughts are,

(02:02:56):
because if if we are going,if we are going under the impression of
oh, like they're they're heavier,and they're like you know, kind of
like I don't even know how theydescribe them, but you know, all
of like the dramatic ways, andit's kind of like what attracted Petunia to
him, I'll say, because notdeadly, but what attracted Petunia and him?
So listeners, let us know yourthoughts. I know I could talk

(02:03:21):
about and detail what I do thinkthat part of it is because they want
to like maintain the connection between Harryand Petunia just a little bit more to
show that she's not as fully downthe line as Vernon is like he still
has like the tiniest bit of likeconnection to Harry that she's not willing to
like explore, but like it's stillkind of there and you can see it

(02:03:41):
like at times, like like yousaid, like her kind of like not
answering immedia about like James, likeyou kind of like you can see that
she has like a hesitance towards likelike jobs being made about like her,
like about like her sister and herfamily. Yeah, just like even though
magical policies like I'm not not she'slike I know, it's not a reflection
on you. Like you can stillsee like obviously she has said that because
she saw that there was a levelof like response with Petunia. Yeah,

(02:04:03):
no, I like that five minutesinsulting her family like like not just like
like she doesn't just sit there andinsult like Harry's mother and father, but
like she just sits there insulting likeHarry's mother and the bloodline like it's horrible,
Like I it's terrible. Yeah,And Petunia probably actually felt like kind
of like oh, I can't likeyou know, like I can't say anything,

(02:04:26):
and I mean and if you know, We've all probably been in these
situations at least once, whether itwas boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, or
even if it was just like afriend where there's kind of like that awkward
thing of like you're not really it'snot I shouldn't even say you're not at
liberty because I mean, we canall by all means stand up and you
know we can't do that, butthere's a little bit of tension or like

(02:04:49):
you know, if you you know, maybe I might, I might say
something negative about someone in my family, like oh, you know that's why
I like she always doing that.But you know if somebody you say,
you're kind of like, okay,but that's my family. Yeah, because
I don't see Marge being someone thatreally apologizes for things that she says.
But the way she's kind of likenot that it's a reflection on you,

(02:05:11):
of course, kind of makes itseem like like like Petunia's face was kind
of like, yeah, a littlestbit like showing a little bit of like
disdain towards the things that she wasabout to say. I mean, it's
like whenever people will say something likeoh, like oh, you're pretty for
a black girl, or you're prettyfor a dark skinned girl, or like
you don't oh well not you Bianca, and I'm like, all, yeah,

(02:05:31):
it's the or like you're or likeyou know, like you're you're look
a lot like a real real manfor a trans person, that kind of
thing. Yeah, exactly, youknow, backhanded compliment. Well good,
like we all need a deep bread, Yes we did. I did not
see that coming with that, withthat chapter. We thought we were just

(02:05:56):
going to talk about half funter wasto blow up on Marge and nah,
so angry though, yeah that howcould you do this to a child?
It never really gets easier to listento that, like I'm still I mean,
and then you think about the moviehow, um I don't know that.
I don't know the actress's name,but obviously she also plays um,

(02:06:18):
oh my god and Matilda something witha tea trum like I can never,
I can never. I just can'tunsee it, like I just yeah,
so I feel like even as I'mreading it, I have that full immagery
and I'm like, she made thatboy eat that whole chocolate cake, which
is like a hole, which islike not even the same story, but

(02:06:40):
then literally like it's blown up inmy mind, like yeah, she's actually
the same. It's in the sameuniverse. And like you know, after
she got fired from her position asas head of the school, she moved
on to breading fighting dogs and youknow, bading her poor or nephew A

(02:07:01):
yeah, nephew, familial person sortof. Well, Um, this is
great. Thank you everyone, specialthank you to Rachel. It was so
great to have you here. Um, if there is a place where listeners
can visit you online if they wantto, you know, follow up,

(02:07:23):
maybe have a little like Griffin doormeet up or whatever. I don't know,
I don't know what you Griffins.I'm actually like, I'm a Hupple
pop, but like my husband isa is a Griffin Door. Um.
And when you said that you're likea Nevill HUPPLEP, I was like I
felt that, um or Nevill GriffinDoor. I'm sorry, ady who If
people would like to get in touch, UM, let us know where they

(02:07:45):
can find you. UM. SoI don't have a very large digital sutprint,
but I definitely will try to hopinto the comments section um on this
episode. And um, yeah youcould probably listen me up and find me
somewhere. UM. But yeah,yeah, I'll definitely try to make my
way into the comments and see whateverI'm saying and try to respond to some

(02:08:05):
some people. Yeah, we hadwe asked some great questions, so I'm
definitely looking forward to seeing, yeahwhat some other people are going to say.
Yeah, Rachel, you were great. We loved having you on the
Oh, thank you. Our nextepisode is going to be a chapter visit
of my favorite book and also wonthe our little Battle of the Books,
which I'm excited about. Deathitely Hallowschapter eleven, The Bribe. This is

(02:08:30):
the chapter where Nis tries to jointhe trio. And if you want to
do more like question answers, there'sa Promptly Potter episode one seventy three which
asks how might Lupin have helped thetrio if he accompanied them even for a
short time and with his desire tojoin them. Valid just little plugs for
Promptly Potter, and please please jointhat episode because I'm also on that episode

(02:08:50):
and I am not a loopin fanso and I'm on that episode with a
loop and fan so tu an endlisteners plan to do. I'm very excited
in for this episode. I've beenwaiting since the beginning of a Loohomura.
I've been waiting for my chance toget on this an episode and talk about
Lupin. So all I'm saying isdon't miss it. And then of course

(02:09:13):
you can always visit our website Alohamoapodcast dot com if you want to be
on the show. Just like Rachelhas joined us today, all you're gonna
do is follow the instructions on thewebsite under the tab choose beyond the show
and send us your audition. Ofcourse, we also you can find us
on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube andSpotify at a loohomoa MN, Facebook at

(02:09:35):
open the Dumbledore, and of courseour email is a lohomore podcast at gmail
dot com. And thank you againto Devin for sponsoring this episode. Thank
you again for sponsoring us for asecond time. We really appreciate that.
And keep in mind that if youwould like an add an add free version
of Alohamoura, or if you wouldlike to watch this episode where you can

(02:09:56):
see all of our faces, interactions, etc. Then head on over to
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If you do decide to become aPatreon sponsor, you will also have access
to Dumbledore's office episodes, sponsoring exclusiveclibs, bonus episodes, and more so.
Thank you everyone for listening again.I'm Bianca Lynch, I'm ASHR Shoulder,

(02:10:18):
I'm Tracy Junpson, and thank youfor listening to episode three hundred and
seventy of Alohamore. Do you likeHegwin can get the heck out of Dodge
and open the Dumbledore Alohamra is producedby Tracy Dunston and edited by Patrick Musleak.

(02:10:45):
It was co created by Noah Freedand Cat Miller and is brought to
you by ap WB, d lllcH. Butthole like kind of the butthole being buttholes

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