Another Pass at Another Pass at The Hobbit Trilogy

Episode Transcript
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Case (00:00):
So I don't know. Anything you want to say before we start?

Sam (00:06):
No, only that I didn't watch these movies over again because I just couldn't bring myself to do it, nor do.

Case (00:13):
I expect you to.

Sam (00:14):
Yeah, I was like, no, not this time.

Case (00:24):
Hey everyone, and welcome back to Another Pass at Another Pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always on these trips memory lane, I am joined by my co host Sam Alicea.

Sam (00:35):
Hi.

Case (00:36):
Hey Sam. So we have gone a long way in this trip down memory lane that is our bonus episodes where we look at old episodes of another past. You might even say that we have gone there and now today we are back again.

Sam (00:51):
Oh God, that was great. But also, oh my God, go on.

Case (00:57):
Because we have gotten past the first year of the show's existence and now we are looking at the, the first episode after we did our end of the year wrap up bonus episodes that we skipped because the idea of doing a naval gazy episode where we look at what was already a naval gazy episode, like clip show episode, like was too much of that, like even for me. I could, I couldn't allow for it. So yeah, so we looked at the Hobbit trilogy and this is a Ben and Addie episode. And I was pretty happy with this episode.

Sam (01:32):
Yeah, this episode is a pretty good episode. Are you all in the same room for this episode? Is that one of these?

Case (01:38):
Okay. Yeah, so this was recorded at the quote unquote CPOV Studios. So. So yeah, we're all live and so like audio issues that happen are more because people aren't talking into the mics and in fact I can hear several spots where we bump the mics. So I, you, you can tell that like we're sitting around a table together. But the audio quality I think is overall pretty good.

(01:59):
Yeah, it's good rapport between me, Ben and Addie and I'm definitely coming more into my own as a host at this point. It was always the issue with Ben and Addie shows that I was so used to being the guest on their podcast.

Sam (02:15):
Right.

Case (02:16):
And so that's still. That's less of the case here. So why don't we actually get into the episode? It's. It's a pretty good listen. I will. Obviously we're going not super specific. Well, you actually do get pretty specific.
We're covering the whole Hobbit trilogy. We're not covering the individual movies. So like buckle up for a pretty in the weeds discussion. Right from the get go. We do not spend a lot of time beforehand. We're assuming that you have seen these movies and you know what you're talking about.

Sam (02:50):
Yeah, you jump right in.

Case (02:51):
Yep. So on that note, why don't we get into the episode?
Welcome to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast.
Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com. T. hank you for tuning in to another past podcast from Certain Point of View. I'm Case Aiken, and today I'm joined by Addy Thomas and Ben Milton.

Ben (03:21):
Yay. The band's back together.

Case (03:23):
Yeah, the whole band. This is awesome. Yeah. Without the pretext of us playing a D and D game.

Ben (03:29):
I love it.

Case (03:31):
Since you guys are here, might as well remind everyone that they can find out more from Certain Point of View by going to certainpov.com they can check out this podcast, the Certain Point of View news show, and also our aforementioned Star Wars D and D game.

Ben (03:45):
It's all there.

Case (03:46):
Yeah, all there. Just go to certain pov.com so thanks guys for joining us. And today we are talking about the Hobbit trilogy.

Ben (03:55):
Yep, there it is. There's the biggest problem this movie has.

Case (04:00):
Yeah.

Ben (04:00):
Is right there in what you said.

Case (04:02):
I think we talked about this a few times on the shows over the various shows where. And I think we're all just agreed, Right. Three movies should not have been how it was.

Addy (04:14):
Absolutely. I mean, it would have been nice for Guillermo del Toro to have the attention span to stick with. This movie was also another big thing. That would have been nice.

Case (04:22):
Oh, yeah.

Addy (04:23):
But. But yeah, two movies ultimately was the big. Is the big thing. Like, I actually, I. I've heard people go as far as it need should have been one movie. I disagree with that. I think there is definitely plenty of content for two movies and I'm even okay with some of the stuff they added from the appendices in this movie. But three movies really stretched it way far.

Case (04:47):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean. Okay, so let's talk about realism in terms of what could actually have been done. Like the Guillermo del Toro. We don't know what that looks like. We have no real solid idea. Could this have been one movie? Sure. I love the Rankin and Bass animated movie. I think that's great. And I think it does a really good job of telling the story without a lot of unnecessary fluff. And it's very tight and concise and is good. But Peter Jackson also was never going to do a Titan concise movie ever.

Addy (05:29):
The moment after he did Fellowship of the Ring. That was his last concise movie.

Case (05:33):
Yeah.

Addy (05:33):
You know, the moment. The moment he had this. He's been hurt a little bit by his success, to be honest.

Case (05:38):
Oh, yeah.

Addy (05:39):
Because. And you know what's funny is I just rewatched Two Towers two weeks ago and it was a lot more concise than I had remembered it being. And that was even the extended cut.

Case (05:48):
The extended cut was.

Addy (05:49):
Yeah. And I remember there was a lot of momentum issues with Treebeard. It was better than I had remembered. But it is still where you started seeing him suffer from not being able to edit himself down as much.

Case (06:00):
The extended cut of Two Towers is my favorite version of that movie. And the first two extended cuts are how I prefer it. The Return of the King is there's too much going on just in general.

Addy (06:11):
Oh, really?

Case (06:13):
Yeah. I might have cherry picked some stuff from the extended Return of the King, but that movie is. It was too long in theaters.

Addy (06:21):
Yeah, I totally agree.

Case (06:23):
Two Towers, the extended cut is good because all of a sudden characters actually have pathos and are worthwhile and I'm not annoyed at their existence, which I was at. The theatrical cut of Two Towers and Fellowship was just nice and fun and I thought all the extra scenes were just good scenes. Like theatrical cut is the. Is a great cut of the movie and has a great pacing and is a great introduction. And I just enjoy the longer version because it's just. Oh, it's more of all this great stuff and it's really interesting. Whereas some of these other projects he's worked on since then, I'm like, no, give me less.

Addy (06:59):
King Kong.

Case (07:00):
Yeah. I can't remember if I ever told the story of how I watched King Kong. Initially. I had loaned my car to someone in college for him to go do an interview and he was in an accident and kept calling me while I was in the movie to give me updates about what had happened. And he was out of state and so there was nothing I could immediately do. And it wasn't like a terrible accident, but it was just like, oh, yeah, I swerved to avoid a deer and this thing, you know, this bumper is cracked and here's all the updates and needs to get dragged out of where it is. So I kept leaving and coming back. And I thought the movie was great. I thought it was awesome. I was like, man, that's awesome. I was like, man, this movie, like, yeah.

(07:41):
And then someone like everyone I watched it with were like, what are you talking about? This was so painful. And Then, like, I finally watched it, like, straight through, and I was like, oh, wow, I dodged a bullet the first time. And I just jumped right back in front of that bullet this time. And yeah, that's the problem with the Hobbit movies. Like, the Hobbit movies, like, it's such a small book. It's borderline disrespectful that the Hobbit got a trilogy when Lord of the Rings is only a trilogy.

Addy (08:10):
Right. Because I think Return of the King should actually be two movies probably.

Case (08:14):
I mean, because, like, the Lord of the Rings books are actually five books and then they're just bound as three or often bound as one. And we kind of just think of them in the three book structure for it. But the Hobbit is not that book. The Hobbit is a very tight, small story about one character exploring the world. And I a ton of notes about that for the how we would do it portion. But, yeah, this movie, it's just way too long. And as a result, they force these narrative structures and conventions into each of the movies to give it an arc where it's not designed to. Like, for one thing, it's supposed to be one book, not three. So you don't have three separate tightly packed arcs.

(08:57):
And then on top of that, there's just all the other stuff going on with the.

Addy (09:01):
There's so much fluff added into it.

Case (09:02):
Yeah. But let's take a second before we get too deep into what we don't like, or what we would change. Let's talk about what we do. Like, I like the casting.

Ben (09:11):
Yep, I like casting.

Case (09:12):
I think Martin Freeman's a great choice as Bilbo. He does a really good job with it. It's fun to have him interact with this whole world. He's got the right vibe to kind of still feel like, oh, yeah, he's related to Frodo. Like Elijah Wood's Frodo specifically. And like. Oh, yeah. And he eventually, like, ages up into Ian Holmes and like all of that. Like, it fits and it's. It's Right. Yeah.

Addy (09:35):
Which I think is ultimately both, actually. One of the cool things about this trilogy, but also one of the things that hurts it is its attempt to fit it in with Lord of the Rings.

Case (09:48):
Yeah.

Addy (09:48):
It feels like the same world, but.

Case (09:50):
It doesn't in some ways.

Addy (09:52):
Right. Which. But some of that, I'm okay with it not feeling like that, but it feels like it jumps through certain hoops that it doesn't need to. To try to make it fit in. That World.

Ben (10:01):
Like what?

Case (10:03):
There's like the narrative structure of it being the book and us. It leads right before the start of the Fellowship movie. It's like the framing device for the whole series.

Ben (10:15):
Gotcha.

Addy (10:16):
Yeah, you have that framing device, but then you also have the way that they're. Jackson is trying to imitate certain things with certain characters. So he's definitely trying to use that same parallel with, with Bilbo and with Frodo. They are two different characters and they need to be treated like that. Which is why I think the first movie, as much as that has actually some of the most fluff. Well, the first and third movies have some of the most fluff in that. In that.

Case (10:45):
Oh God, does the third movie have fluff?

Addy (10:47):
The third movie is nothing but fluff. Yeah, you know, but the. But those are the ones that suffer from trying to add so much into the movie. And again, I don't have a problem with the appendices stuff. Like I was actually cool with Gandalf going to do. Doing certain things and seeing Saruman again, like getting that context in the War of the Ring is fine. But one of the problems I have is the. I don't. I can't even remember the name of the Orc. I think it was Azog. Was the Orc.

Case (11:12):
The white Orc or whatever.

Addy (11:14):
Yeah. He was completely unnecessary in all three of the movies. I know what he wanted to do. He wanted to create a little bit more of a villain that they can faced off against. Be a problem for that. But there are the story. Fellowship of the Ring doesn't necessarily. Like, other than Sauron and the writers who are only there for very brief moments of Fellowship of the Ring. You don't have those villains driving the story. You have the chemistry of the group and the group coming together.

Case (11:49):
Yeah. You don't have antagonists.

Addy (11:51):
Right.

Case (11:51):
You have man against the evil of the world. And evil is almost a force unto its. Exactly. I mean, to get into sort of like the Tolkien lore, Sauron is sort of like the. Like fills the void of. What is it Melchior or Melkor who like was the initial one and like when he was banished, like something has to fill that void, but it's just evil as sort of like a spirit unto itself. Like once something is in. In that position, it's almost like they're not a person anymore. That's why like Sauron works so well as like a non personified enemy. Like he doesn't come in. Like he doesn't need to become like his humanoid form. At the end of the movie for them to have a big fight. It's. That's not the point.

(12:30):
The point is that evil is out there and like it all just draws into itself. That's why the trolls come together. That's why like the evil men march their armies to like unite. It's not about like this one military leader is so smart and so powerful. It's that evil itself is just so seductive and it becomes a wave of power.

Addy (12:50):
Right. And I think they felt they needed that antagonist and that hurt that movie big time. Because there's a lot of stuff like I mean throwing. Lighting up pine cones and throwing them at. At orcs. That, that was totally unneeded. You know, I was like, I was okay with you know, sort of the TR was the Goblin King. Like that sequence was fine.

Case (13:11):
Yeah. Because he's a lesser threat. I mean I don't love that sequence but I, I don't think he's offensively bad or I think because like the thing with like the Pale Orc or whatever is that it's the problem that they try to have these like arcs in it to carry them each movie individually over. Yeah. And again it's just like this artificial structure that they're putting in like the end of the first Hobbit movie feels so weird because it's.

Addy (13:39):
Right.

Case (13:40):
It's just a bullshit arc where like okay, well we made it kind of the way but we're not even close yet. We're not even to our position. Cool. I guess eventually we'll get there. It's not like Fellowship where at least like there was a big dividing point or something like that. Like they're like, oh well. Bilbo finally grew some balls. Cool.

Addy (13:59):
Which I felt that the two act structure make two movies would have been really cool with this by actually having them be more character focused movies. Because I think you have to for these stories because they're smaller in scale compared to Lord of the Rings. I thought the first movie and what they did with the first movie was sort of guided around Bilbo's arc. Like once Bilbo was accepted by the group then you know, like oh, okay, that's the end of it. And it was. But where it needed to happen was it needed to happen once they opened the door to get into.

Case (14:38):
Wow.

Addy (14:39):
I just blanked on the mountain.

Case (14:40):
The Lonely Mountain.

Addy (14:41):
Yeah. Got into the Lonely Mountain. That's that like the end of Desolation of Smaug. Like right. There those first two movies needed to be combined into one. So there's a lot of plot to get through.

Case (14:51):
Well, that's a lot that they can. Way that you say that. That's because that's actually not where I would make the cut. Yeah.

Addy (14:59):
Well, you want to give me your reason for it?

Case (15:02):
Well, yeah, from a cinematic standpoint, but.

Addy (15:04):
Well, not just from a cinematic standpoint, but if you.

Case (15:06):
I agree mostly. And it's really more just the. It's just. It's. You're a little bit later. But it's the same basic idea which is that I would do it when they're leaving Lake Town and then have them. Because that's right when they're heading to the actual mountain. So that should be that. Like Bilbo has made the decision that he's fine with this. And then the movie opens with them breaking into it. And then the first half of the movie deals with Smaug and then the final third of it is the mount or is the battle of five armies.

Addy (15:34):
Right. And the reason, the only reason I like the idea of him actually being able to open it is because then you have Bilbo fight. Earning. Earning finally his final moments of why he should be part of this group. So that the first movie is guided by Bilbo's arc. And I'd rather the second movie be guided by Thorin's arc. And I think this trilogy also suffered from completely mischaracterizing Thorin because I think Thorin needed to be a little bit. They tried to keep on making Thorin a little bit more like Aragorn.

Case (16:03):
Yeah.

Addy (16:04):
Instead of like Boromir.

Case (16:06):
Yeah. I don't want us to be too scattershot about this because I've got some. Because we're talking some structural stuff and also some Jackson changes that he made for things. Before we go too deep into where we're going to break it up, let's talk about those things that Jackson did in this movie or in these three movies that are either good or bad choices that he didn't necessarily make for Lord of the Rings. Because the Dwarves bug me in general because they don't feel like the Dwarves of Lord of the Rings. But the movie sets it like it's that world. And I, I agree.

Ben (16:49):
I agree with that. Specifically, like, I remember in the first movie, like you have like that 10 minute sequence of the Dwarves singing before anything really happens. Like before they even, like they don't. Nothing happens. And there's just like this long sequence of them, you know, coming in and dishes. And then they sit down and they sing and it's. It's okay. They look the same as the Dwarves from. From the other movies. But like, I didn't. You didn't have that type of behavior.

Case (17:19):
And they didn't really look the same. They have a lot of similar features in some regards. But like there's some really aggressive prostheses on some of them which. And some kind of bothered me. Yeah, exactly. The. The shift between some of them. Some look really abstract and others don't and that I found kind of weird. And none of them really felt like Gimli.

Addy (17:39):
You think Gloin looked like Gimli?

Case (17:41):
Yeah, he. More so than anyone. But the design of Gimli felt very uniform when we saw him with other Dwarves. There was this stoutness to them, but there was a plausibility. The Dwarves in the Hobbit movies either feel like gross caricatures or just people. And it's a little weird how that juxtaposition is there. Like, none of them feel like stout people. They either feel like bouncing balls or just regular people. And the scale is kind of the only thing.

Addy (18:16):
Right, right. Which is weird, especially for Keely and Feely. Yeah, yeah. It was a really. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you because it's an odd choice. I think it's also a little bit more of a difficult task because in Lord of the Rings you're fortunate that Gimli is really only the only Dwarf you really spend significant time with. You see other Dwarves at the Council of Elrond, but outside of that you don't see any here. One of the issues, and I do think this is a source material issue is because in the Hobbit even Bilbo is a little bit confused and disoriented and unable to distinguish between a of these different doors. So they all kind of end up blending together and they all do.

(19:03):
I do think they feel a little bit like the caricatures that they put in that movie because, you know, there is the song which is straight out of the book. Not a good reason to do it is an issue that I have because I would have liked them to give more character. I mean, you have. I don't remember who was who, which one was the older dwarf that they used. But you had the older dwarf who was the guy to give all the exposition about everybody else. And he was a little bit more friendly with Bilbo, you know. Then you had Keely and Fili. One of them ended up falling in love with Evangeline Lilly and then you had Thorin and then everybody else kind of fell into Dwarf number three.

Case (19:42):
The fact that we spend three movies and we still don't have like that kind of strong sense of it. It's not a band of brothers. Like that's the thing. Like they are this ensemble, this mass. Like it's not. And they're completely forgettable group of specific characters. They don't have different goals. They all have one shared motive, which is support their king and get back into the mountain. That's one shared mission.

Addy (20:07):
But do you think that the source material makes that difficult from the beginning in the way it's done? Because those are the only or so Balin is the one that is the older orc. So you have Balin who has the callback in Fellowship.

Case (20:22):
Yes, I do think that the source material makes it difficult. And I think that to try to steer away from that is a bad idea because you don't have enough unless you really are stretching and inventing things. They should just be this mass and they end up being this mass regardless of what you try to put in there to make them distinct characters. So why go crazy on all the designs? Why have them be, you know, all over the place? I think it should have been just left to the actors, have more subtle kind of character things to make them stand out a little bit over being like, well, here's gonna be our crazy retowned one and he's gonna be like inside a barrel with like arms sticking out and like. Yeah.

(21:06):
I have so many feelings about the series because I was so excited about it.

Addy (21:09):
Yeah, I was too.

Case (21:10):
And I still do overall like it, but I just. I'm so much more conflicted than I was coming out of even Return of the King where like I was starting to. The luster was kind of fading on the Lord of the Rings franchise, this series. Oh God. I'm not trying to beat you down on this. I'm actually trying to be positive because I do actually think that there is a great two part movie in here. Even though there's some stuff that I think Jackson should have been like, no, stop. Don't do the 48 frame film thing. Don't do all of this stuff. Everything looks a little plasticky. All the prosthetics look a little rubbery. The CGI doesn't quite look as good. But you know what? We had a great scene with Gollum. Yes, we have some great stuff going on.

Addy (22:00):
Absolutely incredible scene with Gollum.

Case (22:06):
I'm gonna shift into doing my pitch of how to structure it and make my notes while I go throughout about it. Because I think that otherwise I'm just gonna get into a ramble about particular things. Now, guys, I am cool with opening and having this framing device tying it to the Lord of the Rings movies. It's a Peter Jackson Middle Earth movie. The audience is going to make that connection. But this is not Lord of the Rings. And so I am cool with that structure. The book structure is great, but I cannot for the life of me explain why someone would put the scenes of Bilbo doing this Galadriel style exposition to set up the kingdom. And all the stuff going on with the dragon. Like the beauty of the Hobbit is that it is that Bilbo finds out about a crazy world.

(23:02):
Bilbo is not particularly worldly and he's in fact less worldly than Frodo. Like Frodo has heard all these stories and is much more curious innately. He's been galvanized by stories from his uncle who has already been changed and made a part of the world. Bilbo is not a part of the world. Bilbo does not care. He just wants to hang out, have some nice food, smoke a pipe. He's cool and thus he's a great viewpoint character for the audience. This is why both series starts in the Shire. Why D and D games start in the Tavern. Because then you get to go out and find out about the weirdness. And so to have this whole setup being like, well, there is this great kingdom with these great minds and like, then the dragon came and blah, blah, blah. No, why bother start with him?

(23:48):
Just because if you've never seen the Lord of the Rings movie and you just start with an older Bilbo kind of walking around his house, like working on the book and being like, I'm going to tell you a bit more about my adventures and then go right into him just meeting up with Gandalf and then being subjugated and into being the thief on this party of people who are a little bit bigger than him. And you're like, what's going on with the world? It still works. You don't have to have seen the Lord of the Rings movies, right?

Ben (24:15):
Yeah, I think Jackson got too enamored with the fact that, hey, I'm making a Hobbit movie. So I'm just going to keep winking at the idea that I'm making the Hobbit so that everybody who's watching this knows that I'm making the Hobbit because it's the Hobbit. And I think, like, he just. He couldn't resist that urge to just like, hey, it's the Hobbit. Guys, we're gonna go see Smaug.

Case (24:37):
Like, it's, you know, all the exposition should be people talking to Bilbo. It should not be Bilbo explaining it to the audience like, yeah.

Addy (24:45):
In Defense of Jackson a little bit. Because it's very easy to crap on him on some of this. And again, you know, who knows how much of this we know of what happened there. There was a lot of pressure him to put this out on a particular timetable. So he easily reverted to what he was familiar with doing with Lord of the Rings because he even admits it in the behind the scenes for Battle of the Five Armies, that he just clears the set completely. And it's just like, I have no idea how I'm gonna get this movie done on time. There's just straight up, like, this guy was like, I think del Toro leaving. And then because he was only going to produce the movie, he ended up having to kind of.

Case (25:29):
Oh, yeah. And he didn't have, like, years of prep time like he did for Lord of the Rings, where he could be dreaming about making this movie and then pitching this movie and then, like, fighting to, like, make it and have, like, all these, like, clear ideas. I get it. Yeah, I get it. And, like, look, we're talking about a short book.

Addy (25:44):
Yeah.

Case (25:44):
So we can't really talk about, like, how big a change to the story. Like, I. We're only talking about, like, the added pieces or, like, where would I cut from the book. Or, like, keep from the book. Like, we've got a very well written classic fantasy piece and it's very straightforward because more so than Lord of the Rings, this is a children's work.

Addy (26:08):
See, the reason I was gonna tie back to he feels enamored that he's making the Hobbit movie. And I do have issues with a lot of those moves. Like, he brings in Evangeline Lilly's character, Toriel, I think it was. Yeah. Actually. So here's the thing. I actually don't have a problem with him bringing Legolas back just for the first movie.

Case (26:29):
I liked Legolas addition here, actually, because it made sense.

Addy (26:33):
Yeah. For him to be in Thranduil's part.

Case (26:34):
Because he was part of that group.

Addy (26:36):
Yes. Like, he's a Mirkwood elf. He's the son of Thranduil. So.

Case (26:40):
Right.

Ben (26:41):
Having him there is fine.

Addy (26:42):
But then not for the subsequent.

Ben (26:44):
Right.

Case (26:44):
Yeah. Yeah, like, forcing reasons for him to be around is weird.

Addy (26:48):
Yeah.

Case (26:48):
But it made perfect sense for him to be there because he would have. Like, we just hadn't met him as a protagonist yet. So he is just the guy standing in the side. But he was one of those elves in those scenes. Like, he may not have been the main point one, but, yeah, he was there. That's fine.

Addy (27:03):
But then they did make him so much bigger of a character than he was supposed to, which is weird.

Case (27:07):
Yeah.

Addy (27:07):
And that hurt because he never was that interesting to begin with. He was a great side character in Lord of the Rings.

Case (27:13):
But yeah, because here's my question about these movies. Are they a prequel? Are they a sequel? Are they related? Because the Hobbit is a standalone book and it is very. It's not a prequel. It's just the first book in the series. And then the big chunk of it is the Lord of the Rings. Right. But these movies exist in a world not too long after the Lord of the Rings movies have come out. Like, so not long that old actors who are in the first ones are still reprising their roles. So it's clearly built, assuming that the audience is connecting all these dots and that it's part of the same series.

(27:52):
But unlike, say, the Star wars prequels, this is one where, yeah, it really is something you should be able to come into completely and just watch by itself and then not have it ruin the next group of movies. So this is a true prequel in a way that the Star wars prequels aren't.

Addy (28:10):
Right. Since the Hobbit was the original book.

Case (28:12):
Yeah. So I think this movie owes it to be a movie that you can jump into without knowing everything and then have the world explained to you, but not explain so much that it ruins the Lord of the Rings drama.

Addy (28:25):
So this is where it does get a little. I think it gets a little bit more hazy on that point. Only because even though the Hobbit is a standalone story that was written and published before the Lord of the Rings proper, you still have Tolkien's world building that was done beforehand. And yes, the elements that are present in the text of the Hobbit, which are really just riddles in the dark, getting Sting and the Darkness that's overtaking Mirkwood, those are really the only three elements that contribute to the story of the War of the Ring directly. But then all the stuff that Gandalf is off doing, which are covered in the appendices, you know, do connect with the bigger scale of the War of the Ring.

Case (29:16):
I Don't mind having tie ins to Lord of the Rings. Sorry, I don't mean to make that point or to make it sound like that. I don't think most of what he does in this movie actually ruins the narrative of Lord of the Rings. It's not like in.

Addy (29:31):
It's not like the Star wars prequels.

Case (29:33):
Well, yeah, again, it's not like in Revenge of the Sith where we find out that Luke and Leia are brother and sister and the children of Vader. Like, that ruins part of the original Star wars movies. I don't think there's anything in this movie that outright ruins anything. And there's plenty of references in the Hobbit to the Necromancer and the Enemy. And there's stuff going on. Bilbo doesn't know about it, but it's fine. And I don't mind those cutaway bits. I'm just saying that the movie should start where Bilbo is an uninformed individual living in what feels very much like kind of a quaint English town. And then expand out into the world. Like, have him be explained what happened to the Dwarves, which he has to have happen anyway.

(30:17):
But just move that narrative bit over so that it's there instead of at the beginning of the movie. And he's explaining it to the audience. Like, have Bilbo be the one finding out because we're with him on this quest. Yeah. You know, and then you can kind of like cut down a little bit throughout just to sort of keep it tight. Like I said, I want to end the first movie in Lake Town where they're making the decision to actually go to the mountain. It is the closest thing that Bilbo has known to civilization since the Shire. It's the thing that he understands the most. And it gives him an out to sort of stop and be like, okay, I kind of got caught up in this quest. A lot of it was about surviving.

(30:58):
But now I'm back in sort of like a civilized point. This could be my breakaway. Like, as opposed to being like, I just got away from a bunch of orcs with you guys. I'm up on a tree having just been dropped off by eagles. I have literally no choice but to stand with you. Or not. Like, he can't go home again from there, but he can from Lake Town. Lake Town is a spot where, yeah, sure, they're very close to their final goal. But it's that final mile that might be the big stretch. Like he's gotten them To a very close point. And if he goes any further, that's real harm. Like, that's him choosing to go into danger. Whereas before they've just been attacked. Like, he happened to be around and dangerous shown up.

(31:39):
So I like the idea of if they ended the movie with them like either traveling away and then you just pan up on the mountain the way they kind of end the first movie anyway. But put that closer where it's not like, I guess eventually we'll get there.

Addy (31:53):
And it fulfills the arc of him being a part of that team big time. Yeah, I like that a lot. I actually really like that.

Case (31:59):
I feel like we spent way too much time in Lake Town. I don't think it's that interesting. In the book. They really fluffed it out for the second movie.

Addy (32:05):
Yeah. Well, that's because they made the battle of the five armories much bigger than it was ever supposed to be.

Case (32:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. They just keep on expanding. I think you could easily crop it down a lot. Like I said, this is a movie that I think you could edit into existence of perfection. Like you could remove a lot of the drama in Lake Town and just sort of kind of focus on a few couple key bits to get Bard in position so that he's able to shoot Smaug when he comes. Like, that's. That's it. Because like when Smaug attacks the town at the end of the movie, that is weird spot to cut.

Addy (32:37):
Yes, that was.

Case (32:38):
That's a TV show cut. But that is not a movie cut. Like, yeah, that is like movies that are direct sequels like that already feel weird. Like Fellowship, I remember got a lot of flack when it first came out.

Addy (32:50):
Yeah.

Case (32:51):
Because people weren't used to that kind of movie. And we still really aren't. Like, movies are supposed to be a self contained thing. We're cool with sequels. We're cool with big world building stuff.

Ben (33:03):
Yeah. But not massive cliffhangers.

Addy (33:05):
Yeah.

Case (33:05):
Very rarely are we okay with it. And only when it feels like, oh, my God, I can't wait till this next thing.

Ben (33:12):
Because the first thing that we've been dealing with is over.

Case (33:15):
Right?

Ben (33:16):
Yeah. Not God, I wonder how it's gonna end.

Case (33:18):
Yeah. Because even movies that people generally like the Two Partedness, I'm thinking like Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. That's a pretty good cliffhanger. It's not. In the middle of the scene when Voldemort gets the wand, you're like, oh, the stakes have just been raised a lot I can't wait to come back. But still, audiences don't naturally like to end a movie that confused. Audiences are much happier to have a sequel that picks up, you know, a few days later or a few weeks later or something like that. Even if it's the next day, they like to have it be, story one is done. Story two is starting.

Ben (33:54):
Yeah, well, I think a lot of that has to do just, like, the nature of, like, well, God, now I gotta wait a year or at the best, six months to get this next story. Whereas with tv, you can get away with that because it's like, oh, well, I gotta wait a week. Yeah, you know, so, yeah, you can't. You just can't. It's hard to have that kind of patience with a story in that medium to do that.

Case (34:14):
But imagine if the second movie opens with them kind of like brushing away at the side of the mountain and you're trying to find the door. Like, they're there, all that material where.

Addy (34:23):
They'Re just walking from Lake Town to.

Case (34:26):
The Lonely Mountain and they're pissed off because they can't find the door. And you can use that time to catch up everyone on what just happened in the previous movie.

Addy (34:34):
See, I would think that would have been a great. If you went with the idea of Thorin being the backbone of the second story. I would have liked the prologue that they do use in the first movie where they're explaining the Dwarves and that lore. I thought that would have made a much better spot because you could also see them coming back to tell that story to quickly reacquaint everybody with the story. But to tell it from that perspective.

Case (34:59):
Oh, yeah. I can see that being not a bad spot to put that.

Addy (35:01):
Well, one is also. Because you have that perspective from the Doors which is, again, unnatural for Bilbo to tell that story. But then two, you can also have them walking through the ruins of their own home and moments that you saw just a second ago that were just destroyed by Smaug that they defended and were the halls and, you know, the places that was, you know, they've just gotten back to the home that they lost.

Case (35:25):
Yeah. Oh, I do like that, actually. Like. So, again, in the scenario where we're just cutting it together.

Addy (35:30):
Yeah.

Case (35:30):
Like, you could even have Bilbo's voiceover still for this year because, like, we're opening the movie and he's now been sort of briefed on all of this and the opening of him about to go in. And we also saw Lake Town in the previous movie. So we know about the remnants of those people. So this. It, like, fills in. Oh, that's why they're there. Like. Oh, okay. I like this as a cutting point there.

Addy (35:51):
Yeah.

Case (35:52):
Cool. All right. I like that the Smaug stuff again, way too long.

Addy (35:57):
Yes.

Case (35:58):
Like, all of this is just, like. It just feels so padded. Like, all these scenes are so tight in the book.

Addy (36:03):
So did you think so with which Smaug scenes in particular? Because I did like, Smog and Bilbo.

Case (36:10):
Yes. That is good. Again, the stuff where they basically are taking the book. And I'm not trying to be, like, book purists.

Addy (36:16):
Yeah.

Case (36:16):
Because, like. But it's just one where it's hard.

Addy (36:20):
As a Tolkien fan not to be a purist, though I will say.

Case (36:23):
I mean, there's stuff that I find kind of tough with Tolkien sometimes. Like, I feel like it drags a lot. I. Yeah. Like, look, I always say that Two Towers. The extended cut with Helm's Deep is a great take on a thing that is not that in the book. Like, the book is a chapter I forgot about when I heard about the movie.

Addy (36:43):
What do you feel about the elves coming back, though, for that? What's your thought on that? Because that's sort of one. I agree. Helm's Deep is so much cooler in the movie than in the books.

Case (36:57):
Him showing up there, I don't really mind it.

Addy (36:59):
Yeah.

Case (37:02):
It's the first time we really got to see the elves have, like, a military presence in it other than the prologue. Yeah. So it wasn't terrible. And it still ended up making the scene work fairly well. And it made for this really badass sort of alliance component to it. Again, it's changing the nature of the battle. The battle of Helm's Deep, as I read it, felt like a one off in this, like, sequence of things that was happening building up to ultimately everything going on in Gondor and all that, like. But with what they do in the movie, it's this huge epic point that they actually come to and it's like cutting off Saruman's ambition. So that's a worthwhile bit right there. And again, everything they did to it made it interesting.

Addy (37:51):
Right. So then coming back around to the Hobbit and sort of. That sort of, like, being a purist option with Smaug. Yeah, Smaug, if you prefer Smaug.

Case (38:01):
The desolation is Smaug. That's the thing. Jackson does a really good job of taking scenes that are so iconic and interesting and putting it on screen. The conversation with Gollum is great. The conversation with Smaug is great. Those are good scenes. And we're realizing it and we're adding this sort of snaky tendriliness to Smaug and we're making, like, Gollum, like, interesting in a way that I. It's. You know, Gollum is one where he, in the Lord of the Rings has a sort of pitiable component to him. But in the. In the Hobbit, he doesn't really. He's. He's terrifying. He's a voice in the darkness. And you. You feel like he's a true threat. And I think they do a good job of sort of balancing that in the first Hobbit movie. So that's a nice scene.

(38:51):
And, like, so Jackson is great at taking a scene and bringing it to life. I think sometimes when he is tasked with expanding upon a scene, sometimes it goes a little awry. But the moments that are the true moments from the book are great. I just think there's way too much time running around trying to trick him. That ultimately is just like, fuck this, I'm going out and burning stuff. There's no narrative stake to it. They don't win at the end and nor do they really lose. They just sort of don't die. And he gets annoyed with them. And so that's bad storytelling because there's no real escalation in a way that matters. He could have always just chosen to do that and they could have always just chosen not to be there.

Addy (39:34):
Yeah, I have mixed feelings on that scene because there is as elaborate and over the top as that scene is with all the levers and reawakening the forges and all of that. That was one of the few places where I felt I was with Lord of the Rings dwarves. And I felt like I was finally able to see what Moria at its height would have been like. Obviously now we're seeing the Lonely Mountain. So it needs an even greater dwarven culture. You know, there are two moments, actually that stand out in the trilogy for me. It's that and it's when. What's the freaking Iron Dwarf's name who shows up at Battle of the Five Armies.

Case (40:17):
Oh, God, yeah.

Addy (40:19):
It was. The one good scene in Battle of the Five Armies is when he shows up.

Ben (40:23):
Kelly Connolly's character showing up.

Addy (40:26):
Yeah.

Ben (40:26):
Right in the.

Case (40:27):
Was he Boar or a boar?

Addy (40:31):
Yeah, I mean, but those were the decidedly. Like. Yes. I finally got to see the Dwarves that I like because, I mean, the Dwarves are my favorite from Lord the Rings. So getting to See that as over the top and ridiculous as the forges were, there was something kind of cool with it.

Case (40:51):
But yeah, I'm not saying cut it all. I'm just saying cut it down.

Addy (40:55):
Cut it down.

Ben (40:56):
Turn one forge.

Addy (40:57):
And again, yeah, it's true.

Case (41:01):
The narrative weight of it isn't really there. If this was their opening salvo at the beginning of a movie, it might be a lot more interesting. But by this point it's not. And the resolution of it all is just that he leaves and he's annoyed and so he's gonna go hurt other people. It's not even their people.

Addy (41:20):
Yeah.

Case (41:20):
So if the whole thing is just.

Ben (41:21):
Like, doesn't make a lot of sense.

Case (41:23):
It's not that it doesn't make sense, it's just that it doesn't. Or rather it doesn't make sense in the, like the scene itself makes sense to happen. Yeah, but the narrative purpose for putting that scene there.

Ben (41:34):
Why is it that weird? Yep.

Case (41:35):
And if it was just different at a different position in the arc so that it's at the beginning of the story and this like drives the dragon and the dragon's destruction is what drives the hostility between the dwarves and the humans. So that when the elves show up it's just then like a lot more bickering. And then the battle feels so natural at that point. Right, but and you also, the same movie that you got the dragon destroying the man's town you also get the Dwarves trying to reclaim their home and putting a lot of effort into it. And thus they feel that they triumphed and that they have a claim to killing the dragon. That the humans also feel they have a claim to killing the dragon. And also that they suffered a lot at the dragon.

(42:20):
And thus it all feels together like everyone is right and that's why they all hate each other claim, which they don't right now because it's in one movie the Dwarves try to do something and we end with the dragon just being like you guys. And then the next movie, mankind is attacked by a terrible fire breathing monster and they do everything they can to save themselves. And finally one human so heroically takes the dragon down and then these Dwarves are just like, eh, you guys, whatever.

Addy (42:49):
Yeah, well, they totally reneged their deal.

Case (42:51):
With the split up the narrative stakes in a way that makes it so that the three movies, you just lose these bits. Like Bilbo has already come into his own as a hero for the second movie so that he doesn't gain anything by Going into the dragon's lair that he hadn't already gained by being like, I guess I'm not afraid of orcs anymore. Like the. The final movie. Everyone's been at each other's throats just as a matter of course. By the time we get to the five armies, as opposed to. As an elevation of their natural state of things.

Addy (43:23):
Yeah.

Case (43:24):
And so if we just compress it all, it feels much more real and tangible and right there.

Ben (43:29):
That makes sense. Yeah, you're right. Because everything does in this movie does kind of feel. Everybody's motives feel disjointed. You know, and there's just.

Case (43:40):
Distant is even a better word on that one. Because that's the thing. They have these huge gaps in both, what, our actual screen time of seeing the driving forces and us actually kind of feeling it there. Yeah. Like Thorin. Everything with him, like working as a blacksmith and hating, you know, everything that's at the beginning of the first movie. So by the time we get to him actually reclaiming his. His throne, it's been six hours since the last time since we saw him. Really, truly the ramifications of his loss. But if the second movie and final movie in the series opens with us getting a flashback where we see him in his youth. And it would have been nice if he looked particularly different between the two eras. But no, he doesn't do whatever they.

Addy (44:29):
Were really trying to make him. Like, Aragorn had so many.

Case (44:31):
I wish he was just a little bit older. Like, again, I'm kind of biased by the Rankin Bass production where he's super old, but I would have liked him to be like a little bit older. Yeah. Like pretty gray with, like, you know, black and gray, like mixed with.

Addy (44:44):
I mean, every. All of the Dwarves, it looked like it was last week that they got kicked out of.

Case (44:48):
Yeah. And I realize that they don't age that much or relatively speaking, but I don't know, man.

Addy (44:54):
It's enough for their society to be completely fractured. So they should look aged to some extent.

Case (44:59):
Yeah. I wanted them to all look middle aged at youngest.

Addy (45:03):
Right.

Case (45:04):
And they look generally younger, middle aged, too young in most cases with only a few of them looking kind of old.

Addy (45:10):
Well, and it was fine for some of the Dwarves looking a little younger. Like Kili and Fili are, you know, are Thorn's nephews. So it made sense for that.

Case (45:18):
Right.

Addy (45:18):
You know, but outside of that. Yeah, you're right. They should have been.

Case (45:21):
They're not elves. Yeah. Like, that's the key thing there. Yeah. And Thorne is An Aragorn who's like, oh, I'm actually 60 or whatever. He says 83. Yeah, exactly.

Addy (45:30):
Yeah. I only know that because I just watched two weeks ago.

Case (45:35):
Yeah, exactly. The Demi elf. I will say this in terms of straying from the books. You couldn't have ended this movie franchise with Bilbo just sitting out the fight and just kind of being like, oh, that's some shit that's going down over there.

Ben (45:56):
Let me just sit up here and watch.

Case (45:58):
I'm gonna write about it in my journal. And so those battles went on and I. I chronicled and I went home. And now the book you're now reading that you could not have done that in a movie. Like, so I completely understand them changing that I was not. That was fun that they made that change. You know, I don't think it felt perfect, but. But again, the last time we really saw, like, the pale Orc being a threat was. Was like, six hours earlier. So all of that, you know, again, if we just compress a lot of these scenes. Not quite as big a deal.

Addy (46:33):
Yeah, well, there were a number of things that were built too, that they didn't pay off. Like, man, it's been a while since I've watched the Hobbit. It's funny, like, talking about it. I kind of want to rewatch the first two movies. I don't want to rewatch Battle of the Five Armies, which I've never actually watched. The extended cut. I've watched the extended cuts for.

Case (46:48):
I got it just for this recording.

Addy (46:51):
Did you really? Yeah. I just couldn't bring myself to rewatch that movie. That's how much I disliked it.

Case (46:56):
Yeah. It's so fluffy. Which is weird because, like, the fight sounds so epic, but it Ultimately, you know, that's the weird thing. Like, the Jackson has a great job of taking small moments and making them seem huge and epic, but when he takes scenes that are already kind of epic, they seem kind of just, like, flat.

Addy (47:12):
Yeah.

Ben (47:14):
Is that because he expands those small moments so big that it's impossible to expand those bigger moments? Or do you think it's just. I don't know.

Addy (47:23):
Because I felt like the battle of Middle Minas Tirith, though, also like, another one. I guess it is also not. Well, there's some big moments in the battle of Minas Tirith in the book. Like, it scales. It is a good chunk of that first half of Return of the King, so. I don't know. I think the thing is, the battle of the Five Armies isn't what he did. He was Trying to recreate sort of that mat. Like, he. You see almost like kind of beat for beat. He tries to create reflect moments in Lord of the Rings. And he was really trying for that skill of Minas Tirith with the Lonely Mountain, with Battle of the Five Armies. And it doesn't. It just. That material just doesn't exist for that.

Case (48:07):
Yeah. I think they're missing a little bit of desperation. That would have been interesting where they shouldn't. I felt that they all felt too big in general, as armies go. Like, yeah, it's five armies, but it's like, they're smaller armies. Yeah, they're smaller armies.

Addy (48:21):
Goblins and spiders are one of them.

Case (48:22):
Right. And I realized that coming off the Lord of the Rings movie, it's hard to do a movie that's about one Legion when you just showed a movie about all the legions of man united against the greatest adversary ever. But I think that's the thing that Jackson going into this, because he is riding off of, doing a story about the ultimate evil triumphing that. Doing a story about a small battle that has key ramifications on that later, one wouldn't feel natural.

Addy (48:52):
Right.

Case (48:52):
And that. So he was pressured by studios and also by his own style to do, like, well, this. I've got to have it be huge. Yeah. And if they, you know, it'd be again, I think you could cut it down and make it still work pretty well. But small groups being like, oh, shit, we need to, like, fight to survive. Because effectively, a wolf pack has surrounded our, like, couple of warring tribes, kind of feel. As opposed to, like, this is our civilization on the verge of collapse. Because it's not for any of them. Like, we know that the, like, Lake Town is not mankind. This is not all Dwarf kind. This is not all Elf kind. This is these particular subsets banding together to survive this particular fight. This fight. Yeah.

(49:39):
And it should be an epic fight in the sense that, like, oh, isn't it crazy that these three factions that never like each other stood together because of this? And what does that say about down the road? Oh, there is hope for men and for Dwarf and for Elf, but it shouldn't be that. Oh, and for Elf, everything's on the line.

Addy (49:57):
Let's not forget the airdrop Beorn guys.

Case (49:59):
Yes.

Addy (50:00):
Who doesn't? You don't get to see him do anything.

Case (50:02):
Yeah.

Addy (50:03):
And like, of course, it's so disappointing.

Case (50:06):
And of course, the Eagles show up, which is. And, like, save the day. Because this is still a kid's book where it's just like, well, gonna win. So that's my pitch. Addy, I feel like you and I have been bouncing back on this a lot. Ben, do you have some particular thoughts? I feel like you've been a little quiet.

Ben (50:23):
I am so tired.

Case (50:25):
That's okay. Watching all three of these movies the way you did today would make anyone very tired. I'm gonna watch both the regular and extended cuts.

Ben (50:35):
Yes. Twice. No, I. I agree completely with what you guys are saying. I grew up watching the Rampart, the cartoon version of it. And it's so concise and it's so simple and that book is so simple. I think there is a case to be made about even making it one movie, to be honest with you. It's such a simple story. It doesn't need to be bigger. We were just talking about this, about how he tries to inflate the story to be more important and bigger and on scale with what it is. And I think in some ways they would have been better to start with this story instead of Fellowship. But I mean, that's not what we got. Yeah, that's not what we got. We got this in the sequence where it is.

(51:29):
I think though, like, making it a more personal story, making it a smaller scale story and giving some more depth to these characters instead of looking for a lot more action. Like, we got like a lot of like stupid scenes. Like, like the barrel scene.

Case (51:46):
I was just gonna say that. I fucking hate that goddamn scene.

Ben (51:49):
It's such a shit.

Case (51:50):
It's so terrible. Like, it's not a huge. Like it's a. It's cool. And he makes jokes about it later when he's like talking to Gollum and it's like, right, Gollum? Yeah, yeah. Like, well, no, no.

Addy (52:01):
It's.

Case (52:01):
It's after Gollum. Oh, when he's talking to Smaug.

Sam (52:05):
Right?

Addy (52:05):
Yeah.

Case (52:05):
Barrel. Right. Barrel.

Sam (52:06):
Right.

Addy (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.

Case (52:07):
Where it's like, cool. He's inflating, but it's not a big scene. It's him talking about how some of the awesome things he's done which aren't that big. The biggest thing he's ever done is encountering the dragon.

Ben (52:19):
Right.

Case (52:20):
Everything else has been fairly small and other people have usually solved the problem. It's just he might have been able to get out of the way or put someone in the right position to win.

Ben (52:29):
Right?

Case (52:29):
And that's how they beat Smaug too. He gets the message out. It's like, oh, aim for this.

Ben (52:34):
And that's it.

Case (52:35):
Yeah, yeah. Bilbo is never like, I'm the killing blow guy. Bilbo is. I noticed that detail and I convey.

Ben (52:41):
That information guy, to somebody who can actually do the work. Yeah, yeah.

Case (52:46):
I don't.

Ben (52:46):
You know, I love this story. I grew up with this story. My mom, like, read this story to me when I was a kid, even before I could read. Like, I remember like sitting down on Saturday afternoons by a fire and my mom reading this story to me. So, like, the story is really dear to my heart. Growing up and becoming a fantasy lover, this story is really key to me. The thing that breaks my heart about this trilogy is that it doesn't feel like that to me. There's nothing about this movie that has that sentimental pull to it. I think it's for all the reasons that you guys have both said. It's trying to do too much and it's taking weird aspects and blowing them up and then it's sticking in these weird situations. Like the barrel ride of.

(53:31):
Well, let's just make a video game scene here because, you know, this will translate well into the video game that we're gonna maybe release. Or it'll make a cool Lego set.

Case (53:39):
Or like a game or something. Yeah, yeah.

Ben (53:41):
You know, it's like, okay, like, there's just too much of that. Like, I think this is such a concise small story that's really all it is. Like. And to do more of that, I don't like, it just doesn't work for me. Even when you add the appendices stuff to it. Like, I didn't like that. Yeah, like, I thought that was just. That was too much. Like, again, being like, hey, we're making a Lord of the Rings prequel. Come on, guys.

Case (54:07):
Like, this is.

Ben (54:08):
This all ties in together. Like, it didn't need that.

Case (54:11):
Some of that and have it work.

Ben (54:12):
Together, like having Legolas there, like in that one scene, fine, that works. But you didn't. I didn't need the rest of like, it didn't need that. All that. That to me is. Is additional fluff that you don't need.

Case (54:24):
To tell that story. Why is Legolas not directly interacting with Bilbo all the time when they actually go to the council in Lord of the Rings, like, or in Fellowship, like Bilbo's there, so is Legolas. Yeah, it should be a bigger scene in that regard. It's true. It's weird. I think that one movie I would feel cheated because they'd have to race through it. Even a huge movie, like a four hour movie. I would feel like they're running through these things, which they can do in the cartoon. But for the Peter Jackson Hobbit movie, it probably would have to be two movies. One would just be crazy, either cropped or all the scenes would have been just not how Jackson makes the movie. I don't know.

Ben (55:13):
Yeah, it would take a different film, so it would take a different director to make that into one film. You're not gonna get that out of Peter Jackson for sure.

Addy (55:21):
So coming back to the appendices stuff. So, like, do you. The. The way they. They use Saruman was that one. So, like, that didn't do anything at all for you? I like again.

Case (55:32):
I know. I mean, it's.

Ben (55:33):
It's nice fan service and it's a nice callback to like, oh, hey, that we're in the Lord of the Rings world and this is happening at the same time. Is it necessary to tell that story?

Addy (55:44):
Right, I get. Yeah, I guess.

Case (55:46):
I mean, I liked having him there just to sort of reinforce the. The world that you could not have done without knowing later. Same deal as having Legolas there. I feel like it's fine to have him and it's fine to remind you this is where things are, what, 40 years before the Fellowship. So that's all cool. I thought Radegast, they spent way too much time with.

Addy (56:12):
They definitely spent way too much time with Radagast. I am sort of interested to see though, and maybe I'll try this as much as I don't like Battle of the Five Armies. But I was always interested to see what the experience of watching this from the Hobbit through Lord of the Rings would be like.

Case (56:30):
I have also always wanted to do that and have not been able to allocate a day of my life to do that. But I would be down for it if you.

Addy (56:38):
I might do a series of days. I may not do one day for.

Case (56:42):
It all, but if you wanted to dedicate a week and then live, tweet it with me, like, that could be a cool.

Addy (56:47):
That might be fun. Yeah. Well, here's the reason why I say that. Because it does chronicle a little bit of Saruman's fall, if you look at it from that perspective. Because the way they do portray Saruman in the Hobbit is he's still a hero. He's still a good guy. Which was a little like. It was almost a little bit jarring just because I remember him only as the bad guy. But it was cool. I did really like that. Point of. Okay, here he is someone who is Fighting for good. And by the time you get to Fellowship, he's just like, no, things are way too bad.

Case (57:20):
He's swept up in the wave of evil.

Addy (57:22):
Right. Yeah. I have to ally with Sauron at this point. So I like aspects of that. Absolutely. There is plenty of fan service. I absolutely hate the moment in Battle of the Five Armies where Thranduil is talking to Legolas about going to find Aragorn. And he doesn't even use Aragorn's name because you have to earn it. But he's known as Strider.

Ben (57:47):
So awful. So awful.

Addy (57:50):
There's really a lot of terrible stuff in there. I'm not a hater of the barrel rider scene, but it's not a good scene.

Ben (57:58):
Oh, I despise that scene.

Addy (58:01):
I understand.

Ben (58:02):
To me, that scene is just. Just as bad as the droid factory scene.

Addy (58:07):
Oh, that bad.

Ben (58:08):
Yeah.

Case (58:09):
It feels more necessary because at least it's their escape.

Addy (58:13):
Yeah.

Case (58:13):
Like, it's bad. It's not droid factory scene. Where when I was playing around for my cut of the prequels into one movie like, you can just cut that scene completely and you're good.

Addy (58:24):
See? And I also enjoyed at the beginning of the Barrel Riders scene, the little battle between the elves and orcs there. I did enjoy that section of Now. Then the barrel ride and then fighting orcs and, like, everyone tossing, you know, axes to each other. And then, you know, and then hot garbage. And then whatever. The fat door.

Case (58:43):
Too frantic.

Addy (58:44):
Yeah.

Case (58:44):
Like, it's just a lot. Like, it's video gamey.

Addy (58:47):
It was. And the video gamey aspect of all three of these movies is ridiculous. Because that's the thing with Lord of the Rings, you know, it never has that video game.

Case (58:55):
Well, yes, it does.

Addy (58:57):
A couple of video games.

Ben (58:57):
Yes, he does.

Case (58:58):
But it's moments.

Ben (58:58):
It's moments.

Case (58:59):
And he is weird. He is an elf. And they kind of use that to set up, like. Oh, but elves are so different from people. And they're not just, like an actor with pointy ears. Because look at these things. They do.

Addy (59:08):
Yeah, but they don't have him doing, like, the Mario blocks running up the way he does.

Ben (59:13):
Yes, you're right.

Addy (59:15):
Yeah. Like, they have him use. We get, like, a shield used as a surfboard and we get him, like, jumping up on. Climbing up onto an Oliphon. Yeah, that's kind of it. You know, so.

Case (59:26):
Yeah, that's an argument for the later Lord of the Rings movies because he's not so much doing that in the first one. The first one, he has Some badass moments and people loved it. And so they exacerbate it for the later ones. In the first movie, he's got the moment where he stabs the guy with the arrow and then shoots it at someone else. And people are like, that's great. I love this Legolas guy. And so they kept building around that. The same way the no one tosses a Dwarf joke in the first movie made Gimli. All of a sudden, the joke of the next two movies that he wasn't really in the first one. They. Even though the movies came very quickly, they were doing reshoots between. Yeah.

(01:00:02):
And they were definitely exacerbating or really like focusing on shots to really make it so. Yeah. And surely they wouldn't, when they were making it, were like, oh, that was a good moment. Let's. Let's add to it.

Ben (01:00:13):
Build on that.

Addy (01:00:13):
Yeah, right.

Case (01:00:14):
Because they kept working on those movies throughout. Yeah. You know, the barrel ride scene and like, stuff like that in these movies are the jarring difference between the Hobbit as a piece of work versus the Lord of the Rings, where it's much more a child's, like a children literature kind of thing. And with a book you can shift gears like that. Especially a book where one came out and then 15 years later the next three came out versus in this case, they do things in the movie to set it in the world of the Lord of the Rings movies. If this was a totally different director with a totally different art style and everything was just different. I think that barrel ride scenes and whatn. If you're like, oh, this is a kids movie and they made a kids movie, Hobbit wouldn't feel weird.

(01:01:01):
It would feel natural. Right.

Ben (01:01:02):
Because Peter Jackson's name's attached to it.

Case (01:01:04):
Right. Then they tie it into the Lord of the Rings movies because it has gravitas to it. Yeah. And so they put in, you know, a Dwarf that's in a barrel that's spinning. Because that's a neat trick.

Ben (01:01:16):
Well played, sir. Well played. Drink?

Case (01:01:20):
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. I think you could cut this down to being a much more interesting movie. I think there's still some stylistic choices that are at odds with the material that they're using and that they don't do enough. And in some cases they embrace both directions. And so it's like kind of pulled apart. But I think if you just made a tighter movie or tighter pair of movies from these three that we've got, you could have an interesting work. You could have something that is satisfying and actually builds towards the world that we're in and then doesn't diminish the next movies because it doesn't need to be a serialized like, well, we face the greatest evil ever and then the next movie, the new greatest evil ever, he's even greater. That some series could get into.

(01:02:06):
Like, this is a slightly smaller scale where we have terrifying monsters and there's terrible things out there. And then the next three movies we deal with, the world itself is just in the death throes as evil kind of like as a cancer takes hold. And those would work great together. It wouldn't feel like a challenge.

Ben (01:02:28):
You don't feel. Movie audiences would have felt like, oh, this is a step back.

Case (01:02:32):
Well, that's the danger. But that's the thing. They felt the need to try to rise to that occasion and they missed completely. So I'd rather keep it smaller and keep it truer and have it. Yes, theatrical audience might feel cheated of another huge Peter Jackson movie. And like I said, I would have felt cheated if we only got one Hobbit movie. I wouldn't have gotten all the things I wanted out of a Peter Jackson take on these scenes. But if you look at it from the perspective of us now, what, five years later looking at these movies, I have a hard time imagining doing that six movie sit down without it being a challenge to do it. It's not a natural thing. Whereas the Lord of the Rings movies in college, we constantly watched all three in a row.

Addy (01:03:21):
Exactly.

Case (01:03:22):
Because were dumb and we had time. And I'm like, I could have really had time. I could have created art. Instead, I watched all three Lord of the Rings movies again. I used to watched the Hobbit cartoon and then all three Lord of the Rings movies.

Addy (01:03:35):
Oh, really?

Case (01:03:36):
Yeah, because it, again, it was a very jarring change, but it was a different source. It was a different material, but also an adaptation of the same source kind of world. And it actually worked fairly well. This movie is just so big and weighty and it feels like we're just repeating ourselves in a bad way. As opposed to sort of an interesting example of poetry where they rhyme.

Addy (01:04:01):
Again.

Case (01:04:01):
You're just full of it tonight, man. Look at you.

Ben (01:04:04):
I'm impressed, sir.

Case (01:04:08):
But yeah, I mean, if everyone wants to chime in and say what they think could make this movie better, they're welcome to@ certainpow.com I don't have a lot else to say. Do you guys have a lot else.

Ben (01:04:21):
To say about this outside of changing the director completely like yeah, shortening the movies.

Addy (01:04:27):
Somebody's a change out chain down Guillermo del Toro when he agrees to do a movie. Like there needs to be a that like they need somebody or there needs to be Guillermo del Toro insurance on movies. This guy can't focus.

Ben (01:04:44):
He's got the. He is the epitome of commitment issues.

Addy (01:04:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Although I guess I think there were other issues though with this movie because I know Jackson was also embroiled in that whole like the he would he didn't get paid properly for fellowship and all sorts of stuff. So I think that was also in.

Ben (01:04:59):
The mix going on. Yeah, I thought that had been resolved by the time they got Hobbit Gun.

Case (01:05:06):
I mean Peter Jackson is now a well known name in like in movie making in a way that he was not before. Like I think that his career is set and it's forever going to be tied to this franchise no matter what he does next. But yeah. So if anyone wants to chime in with other thoughts about it, if they think we are dumb and that there's great stuff to be added or that really the longest possible cut is the best way to go, they are welcome to@ certainpov.com where we have a message board where people can say stuff about individual episodes. They can also check out our other shows, the Certain Point of View new show as well as our D20 Star wars game, the Scruffy Nerf Herders.

(01:05:49):
You can find all that out@ certainpov.com Next time we are going to be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then stay Scruffy my Nerf Herders. Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast.

Addy (01:06:05):
Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and.

Case (01:06:08):
Review the show on itunes. Just go to certain pov.com.

Sam (01:06:39):
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Case (01:06:44):
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Sam (01:06:55):
We assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or.

Case (01:06:59):
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Sam (01:07:07):
Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play.

Case (01:07:10):
Or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Yeah. So Sam, yeah, I take it you did not have the chance to re watch the entire Hobbit trilogy. Especially not the extended cuts before we recorded this episode, Right?

Sam (01:07:29):
No, no, absolutely not. No, I didn't. I did watch these originally, and I did go see them in theater.

Case (01:07:38):
I think we might have seen a couple of them together, actually.

Sam (01:07:41):
Yeah, I think so. And listen, I think that this episode is right on with the fact that no matter what, no matter how you slice it, these needed to not be a trilogy. Like, for sure this needs to not be a trilogy. And the thought of re. Watching all three films to come and talk about this app. App episode was like, yeah, I don't. I don't think I have enough time in my life for that. That's just. That's not worth the use of my time right now.

Case (01:08:23):
No, it's not. And that. That's the. The. That's the wild part about this trilogy in particular. I. Because I maintain that there is good quality stuff in there, but yeah, it's. It's just too long, especially by the time you get to the battle of five armies, then what are we even doing here? But. But from the first movie, and. And I knew it from that first one, that it just was. Was taking its sweet time in a way that was not good.

Sam (01:08:57):
I mean, like, I think that it's always a challenge when you're taking what is one book and trying to extend that. I know they have the appendices, and I think you're right. In the episode, you did say that, you know, there's. There's plenty to expound on, and that's. That's not a problem. Kind of like containing, you know, kind of doing the beautiful work of expanding on the universe and blending these stories together. There's certainly room for that. I just. I agree with you that they tried to do too much with everything. I will give. I want to give a positive note about this film. As per usual, costumes were gorgeous. Everything looked beautiful on all On. On all the people.

Case (01:09:45):
Okay.

Sam (01:09:45):
Oh, wait, you have a caveat. Is it about. Wait, is it about. I'm specifically speaking elvish stuff. Go on. I like. You have a caveat.

Case (01:09:56):
Okay, so I. I have two. One, which is that no one actually looked good in these movies because of the 48 frame rate. Okay, fair enough. So, like, I. I hear what you're saying about the costumes, but then also. Yes, I. I think that Even without the 48 frames per second issue that made things look. Look particularly fake, because they are fake in a lot of cases and made the makeup really apparent and. And all. All those problems. In addition to that, I'm Not a big fan of the Dwarves in the series.

Sam (01:10:32):
I, I think you're gonna see Dwarves. I knew you're gonna see dwarfs, but go on.

Case (01:10:36):
I agree that, like, there's. There's good work being done on a lot of stuff. And like, there's even good work being done on making somehow sexy Dwarves, which is, you know, boggles the mind if you told someone that they were going to do that before the movie actually was made.

Sam (01:10:51):
Yeah, that was. That felt a little weird, but go on. Yeah, I remember when I first saw it being like, oh, okay, I guess we have to have some sex appeal, I guess.

Addy (01:11:02):
Yeah.

Case (01:11:03):
But I complained in this episode, and I stand by this complaint that the Dwarves of this movie, unlike Gimli and his, you know, the other Dwarves that we see him with briefly at the Council of Elrond, like, the Dwarves in this movie look really all over the place, but they don't actually look like the Dwarves of the Lord of the Rings movies. They either look comically fake or they don't look like they're doing very much to make them look like Dwarf. You know, to look like Dwarves. Like, like Philly, you know, looks a lot like just a human, just with, you know, just in some fantasy clips does.

Sam (01:11:44):
Yeah, that's true. He does.

Case (01:11:46):
Yeah. So. And, and like, Thorin, like, you know, they're not. They're not doing a lot to make him look old, which is another problem there. Or at least they didn't make him look particularly older than his, like, young self, which is own thing that. That's in there. But, but they're not doing a lot to like really like, make them look like Dwarves and like.

Sam (01:12:11):
No, they're not.

Case (01:12:12):
Well, you know, I, I think that there's that. And then like, they're. The movies in general aren't doing enough to really make the Dwarves, like, feel like distinct characters in like a band of brothers type situation. And, and I, I don't think the costumes help in that either.

Sam (01:12:31):
Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. The Dwarves are definitely overall an issue, honestly, which is crazy because they're kind of very. They are actually very Central to.

Case (01:12:44):
They're 1214 of the main cast. I mean. Oh, my gosh, the Dwarves. It's Bilbo. It's Gandalf.

Sam (01:13:00):
Pretty much. Yeah. Okay, I'll take it back. I was trying to think of something nice. I was trying to think of something. There is good things. There are good things.

Ben (01:13:11):
Yeah.

Case (01:13:12):
I don't want this just to Be negative. I stop myself in the episode because we did have a habit of sometimes getting a bit negative in the early days, and I really didn't want to go too far down the negative road, but it is a really hard trilogy to revisit. You did not for this. Ben. Did not for the episode. Like, when. When I watched, I think it was the Desolation of Smog in theaters. I could not be brought to, like, rewatch it until I had to for this podcast. Like, my wife and I, like, I. I saw that separately, which is why I think I might have seen it with you, because were doing, like, the Friday morning movies.

Sam (01:13:54):
Yeah.

Case (01:13:55):
So. But. So I didn't see it with her, and she wanted to go see it, and I was like, I just can't. I don't have the energy to do that. And I saw all of the Lord of the Rings movies multiple times in theaters.

Sam (01:14:08):
Yeah, I did, too. I even sometimes snuck in a snack, some fruit and some cheese with me because it felt appropriate and I was hungry through a lot of the first movie.

Case (01:14:21):
I'm going to choose to interpret that as being a cheese plate in general and with lots of options, even though I'm assuming it was just a little, like. Like some craft single or not craft singles. But, you know, like, I actually.

Sam (01:14:34):
I actually chopped up, like, it actually kind of had a few options because I did chop up some, like, cheddar pieces in some Monterey Jack, and then I, like, it was like, you know, like in a bento box kind of thing. And then I brought, like, some, like, I had chopped up some strawberries and some blueberries, so it just. It felt very kind of was. It kind of was, but in a much smaller way.

Case (01:14:57):
Yeah. Nice. And that's how you have a food digression, which without it being too much of an issue for the. For the movie in question.

Sam (01:15:05):
Right, right, right. Yeah, Long films. So, like, you did need a snack.

Case (01:15:14):
Again. It's. It seems like we're just a broken record on this one, but it's just not three fucking movies. Like. Like, that's the thing about this. And what. And because it's not three movies, I'm so exasperated when I talk about not only did they make three movies, they made three long movies and three long movies that have even longer extended cuts, which I fucking watched for this, and I'm never getting that time back, which.

Sam (01:15:41):
I'm amazed that you watch the extended cuts for this. Like, I definitely watch the extended cuts from the original series, you know, just from the Lord of The Rings trilogy. Well, of course they're very enjoyable. I like them, but I, I don't. I could not do that for this. I. I could not.

Case (01:16:03):
Yeah. Yeah, and it sucks because, like, I, I want to point to, like, oh, here's all the things that I, I desperately need to make sure that we save and. But because almost every scene from the book is well executed when we have it happen. It just. They all need to be trimmed down like crazy and like, chopped up. And I'm actually, I feel pretty good about my suggestion about like, where to cut it. I, I feel like that's a pretty good start of like, okay, Lake Town is done, and then we're gonna pick up with. With. With smug. Also, I love in the episode how we just like, keep on getting. Getting weirder with our pronunciation of smeg.

Sam (01:16:48):
Smeg. Yeah.

Case (01:16:51):
But I, I felt pretty good about that, that pitch there and I felt good about this episode just. Just to circle it around to positivity and that at least is positivity about the episode itself. I, I felt very good because it was an episode where were pretty thorough on an edit pass as opposed to like a, like an editing bay pass, as opposed to a screenwriting pass or something to. To keep the scenes that were shot and just trim them down.

Sam (01:17:25):
Yeah, I mean, honestly. Yeah, I, I do think that all of that would work. I, I think that there's so many things that are too long in here. And I actually, I really liked your cut at Lake Town. I actually thought. And I. What really stood out for me was when you talked about like, the. The end of like this first movie, like being kind of. Or maybe not the first movie. The end of the movie, though one of the movies being very jarring, you know, to the point that, like, it just was abrupt and like, how awkward that was. And that's exactly how I felt, you know, like there was so much like, it's like, yes, we know another one is coming, but it's forever. You know, it's not going to come right away. And.

Case (01:18:19):
Honestly, I kept expecting me to relate this to Halo 3 in the episode when Halo 2 came out. It was this huge update to Halo 1 and was a great video game in general. And then it ends on a cliffhanger. And I always said that it ends like what feels like without the last level. But then it sets up Halo 3 and the story does not support a full video game worth of story. It really was. They had the story for one more level and they were like, let's make another video game as a sequel for it. And it really feels the same way when. Especially when we get to, like, you know, end of desolation or smeg, he, like, flies off pissed off that. And he's gonna, like, burn all the humans. And then we.

(01:19:18):
We pick up and, you know, that's only so much. And then. Then we have to just, like, have this, like, decompressed battle of five armies that we have to, like, make seem like a big deal when it.

Sam (01:19:28):
Right.

Case (01:19:28):
You know, it could have been the third act of a movie. It doesn't need to be like. Like the whole fucking movie.

Sam (01:19:34):
I also remember that it's so long.

Case (01:19:37):
Like, the battle is so long, so painfully long.

Sam (01:19:41):
And so for the last film, I actually got to go to a special screening, and Lee Pace was there and one of the other actors, probably the sexy dwarf, and I. And I. They were there, and they did, like, a Q and A. And I wanted to be so happy, but my friend got us the ticket. Like. Like, she and I, the tickets. And were there, and I was just like. I remember just sitting there during the battle, and I was like, this is going on forever. Like, I was so. I was like, oh, I'm so over this. Can we end this battle finally?

Case (01:20:26):
Yeah, It's. It's so painfully long. I mean, you know, we. We talk about this in the episode, and I. I agree that, like, they had to have Bilbo be a more active participant in the battle than the way it is in the books. Like, sure, that makes enough sense and, you know, you can flesh some of that out. But that battle needed to be, at most, the third act of a movie. It. It did not need to be the majority of a movie.

Addy (01:20:50):
It.

Case (01:20:51):
It is just absurd.

Sam (01:20:54):
Yeah, it was so much.

Case (01:20:59):
So. Yeah. I mean, like, I. I've always been a little bit hesitant of. Of putting praise on the. On this trilogy in general, going back to the first Hobbit movie where, like, the. The. The Pale Orc subplot never quite rubbed me the right way. And like, I said that the. The ending where they're like, you know, the eagles drop them off, and it's just like, yeah, we still have a lot more ways to go, but, like, we're. We're in this together, and he doesn't really have a choice at that moment. Like, he. He kind of has to be all rah for it because he's right. You know, like, they're out in the middle of the wilderness and they just escaped a bunch of orcs. Like it's like cult in terms of like getting people like rooting for you at that level.

(01:21:47):
Like, like what they were just doing there is like, yeah, we just put you through mortal danger and now you're like bought your trauma bonded to us. And like that's the uplifting ending of the first Hobbit movie.

Sam (01:21:59):
Yeah, it's really hard.

Case (01:22:05):
And then the second one, you know, like, didn't do much better because it ends on what is like I, I keep think coming back to this phrasing of it being like a DND cliffhanger because like, you know, presumably no one knows what this next session is going to be, but you know that it's going to take a long ass time. So you definitely want to end on those kind of like moments right before like what is a big epic sequence that's about to occur. But it's a bad movie. Cliff Tiger is the long.

Sam (01:22:38):
Yeah.

Case (01:22:39):
And so it didn't do great on the second one and then it really didn't stick the landing because the battle of five armies is garbage. I mean again, they're good scenes in it. Good, good scenes in it. I, I really don't want to be too harsh about that, but like it's the, it is the worst of the Lord of the Rings sextilogy.

Sam (01:23:02):
Yes. Yeah, I, yeah, I, I think that there are, they're good performances and half decent wigs at least on the elves. Some of the dwarf hair is a little weird.

Case (01:23:19):
Billy Conley is funny in it. Like, you know.

Sam (01:23:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not the worst. Like, you know what, like if the first movie is on TV and I'm cleaning might leave it on. I Definitely not the last one. Definitely not the last one. Maybe, maybe the second one. But you know, that's pretty much how I would rank them in terms really.

Case (01:23:54):
But yeah, I, I think I prefer Desolation of Smog just because like we actually get smog.

Sam (01:24:03):
Well, fair enough.

Case (01:24:05):
But yeah, I, I, I mean it.

Addy (01:24:11):
Yeah.

Case (01:24:12):
You know, like again, like not trying to be too negative about this all. Like the material is there. The, the problem is there is too much material.

Sam (01:24:23):
There's too much and they're trying to do too much with all of that and they are doing it very slowly.

Case (01:24:37):
Yeah. So I, I legitimately think that it, that a, a really good two movie cut exists in there. And honestly, even if you just took the footage and just changed where it cut so that it was only two movies and you cut at Lake Town, which I think puts you roughly about 50 in terms of the overall production. I think that's even still better because the actual cuts between the movies are awkwardly positioned so you can even just turning it into two movies, it's all of a sudden better. But, but really trimming it down and making it tighter would really help the overall production. But it's there. Like, the footage is there.

Sam (01:25:25):
Yeah, for sure.

Case (01:25:29):
And that's just what's maddening about it because, like, I can't help but that, but come off as negative because I just, I'm like, well, could you imagine if they cut this and then cut this and, you know, and all it sounds like I'm like, well, remove this and remove these things that annoy me about it because, you know, it goes without saying that, like, the sequences with like, you know, quizzing Bilbo are really good or the, the scene with Gollum is really good, you know.

Sam (01:25:58):
Yeah.

Case (01:26:00):
So, yeah, that, that's the, the thesis I have about this. And I, I don't have that much to add because I think that were, I think it was a pretty good episode. We were pretty on point. Addy and I bounced off each other really well. And Ben ultimately, I think, agreed with us enough about this all. It just, you know, it was just, he was more negative about the trilogy as a whole.

Sam (01:26:25):
Yeah, I mean, I, I think once you go from, you know, something that is so well put together as the first trilogy, and then you kind of are in this one and you get the third movie and it felt so much like a cash grab, you know, just like another way to get you back into theater for an extended period of a time, I could see how a person would feel pretty negative on the whole experience.

Case (01:27:01):
Yeah.

Sam (01:27:02):
So.

Case (01:27:05):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, did you have any edits that you would make that we didn't discuss?

Sam (01:27:11):
No, no, I, I, I think that there was a lot of really good stuff. And honestly, like, without re. Watching it, I don't think I could, like, honestly add. But again, I am not spending what feels like 10 hours of my life. Well, maybe more, but still, that's an entire work shift, so it's been years.

Case (01:27:35):
Since they've been in theaters, so I get it. Yeah.

Sam (01:27:37):
Yeah.

Case (01:27:38):
Yeah. All right, well, on that note, why don't we get into some house cleaning?

Sam (01:27:43):
Yeah.

Case (01:27:44):
Or housekeeping. I Should say, pardon me. When this episode drops, we will have just released our episode on Super Mario Bros. Will be the most recent episode of Another Pass at this point. And then following that coming up will be Alien Resurrection. And then as far as app episodes go. So again, we skipped the, we. We skipped the clip show episodes. So we just did x men 3 and right now we're doing Hobbit trilogy. So next up is Captain the First Avenger, which is gonna be a wild one because I still really like that goddamn movie. I think that. But it's mostly a positive episode where we're just like little touch ups because we wanted to talk about it.

Sam (01:28:35):
Okay. Yeah. Because I do enjoy that film.

Case (01:28:38):
Oh, I think it's amazing. I think it's the best of Phase One outside of the first Avengers movie and possibly better.

Sam (01:28:46):
Agreed.

Case (01:28:47):
Yeah. And that is with my friend Drew, who is not a podcast person but has been on a couple of times and we recorded that in person. So the audio quality I think is going to be where I start getting a bit better with. With my editing of the audio. But we shall see. We'll find out when we actually listen to it.

Sam (01:29:10):
Oh, we'll be revealed then.

Case (01:29:13):
Yeah. But otherwise I think that wraps up all the. All the stuff we've got.

Sam (01:29:19):
Yeah.

Case (01:29:20):
Cool. All right, well, Sam, where can people find you and follow you? You.

Sam (01:29:24):
They can find me here on app episodes and also our regular episodes and you know, come visit us at the Discord, which sometimes I remember exists. But yeah, other than that, if you have any complaints about how I decided not to rewatch, basically eight hours plus of film for this episode, you can find.

Case (01:29:50):
I gotta tell you, it's more like 10 plus.

Sam (01:29:53):
Yeah, I said 8 plus. It is 10 hours. It's like three shift and plus, you know, over eight hours of. Of EP of movie to talk about this episode. You can lodge all of those complaints with Case at.

Case (01:30:13):
Well, the easiest place to find me is frankly the Discord server. You can find links in the episode description. It's all over our website, certainpow.com or message me if you can't find it and I'll shoot you a link. It's a great time. We have a really great community that is growing and is thriving and it's a lot of fun just interacting with people on there. Otherwise you can find me on the blue ski. That's the social media that I'm choosing to push at the moment. And you can find me there at case eight taken, which is, you know, what I go by on most social media platforms, but yeah, I don't know if. If you enjoyed this episode, please let everyone else know. What you should do is you should pass it on.

Addy (01:31:04):
All right, Jose, let's go through our new comic day stack.

Case (01:31:07):
We have a lot to review. I know.

Addy (01:31:09):
Maybe we've got to far. Let's see. Marvel, of course, dc.

Case (01:31:14):
I got Image, Dark Horse, Black Mask.

Sam (01:31:17):
Boom.

Addy (01:31:17):
Idw.

Case (01:31:19):
Aftershock, Vault, of course.

Addy (01:31:21):
Mad Cave Pony, Valiant, Scout, Magma, Behemoth. Wow, that's a lot. Well, all we need now is a name for our show.

Case (01:31:31):
We need a name for a show.

Addy (01:31:32):
About reviewing comic books every week. Something clever.

Case (01:31:35):
Clever?

Addy (01:31:36):
The not too clever like a pun.

Case (01:31:39):
It's kind of cheesy.

Addy (01:31:40):
Yeah, it's something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in.

Case (01:31:46):
Yeah, we'll think of something.

Addy (01:31:47):
Join Keith and Osway for we have Issues. A weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week available on Geek Elite Media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Sam (01:31:58):
Yeah. Stay scruffy, Nerf Herders.

Case (01:32:04):
Just couldn't. We just couldn't not have that happen.

Sam (01:32:08):
Nope. Nope.

Case (01:32:12):
And the episode goes here. And the episode goes here. And the episode goes here. And the episode goes here. And the episode goes here. My brain is rotting because I have a child.

Sam (01:32:26):
It goes right here. Case.

Case (01:32:33):
Certainpov.

Addy (01:32:34):
Com.

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