Another Pass at King Arthur (2004)

Can we pull the sword and reveal a champion who can restore order to the merely mediocre 2004 film about the noble King Arthur? Lo! There is a champion who might join Case and Sam! Lauren Carter joins them to peer through the Avalonian mists and stalwartly engage with King Arthur!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm going to say, before we get started, my pitch is not very elaborate because I think this movie is not very elaborate in general. Rather than just fully rewrite the movie, I'm mostly just going to kvetch and say the things that I think should have been better. I think the movie is a lot of wasted potential. It has a great cast, decent camera work, but the color correction is ass, and there is no story.
So much potential. There were parts in the story that I just wondered what would have happened if they were different, you know, if it had gone differently.

(00:28):
Central question of the show. Welcome to certain another pass podcast with case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the another pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

(00:51):
Hi.
And today we are pulling the sword out of the earth and unlocking a movie that I saw in theaters and then kind of forgot about, frankly, until were discussing what movies to do. Today we are talking about the 2004 Clive Owen led King Arthur movie. And to have that conversation, we are joined by Lauren Carter.

(01:12):
Hi.
Thanks for having me, guys. Geez, it's been a while since we've seen each other. 17 years ago.
Yeah, it was like 2007, which I. Oh, yeah. 17 years, exactly. That's been a lot.
I didn't realize. I thought that was yesterday. Go on.
Right. I know it's these, like someone said 30 years ago, and I thought they meant the seventies, and then I realized it meant 1994.

(01:34):
Yeah.
Lauren and I used to do. Well, Lauren is still an actress, and I used to act, and we did a project called Trenches back in the day, which was a Sci-Fi film that never was released, as far as I remember. Or if it was, like, in some sort of abbreviated form, but that was back in the day of me being an actor around the DC area. We have stayed in touch in social media world. It's fun that these random connections can still, like, come back around and, like, still be people that we enjoy, like, interacting with and chatting. And I'm so glad that you're here and that we're actually talking again for the first time in forever.

(02:10):
Yes, I know. And not on social media, like, reacting to stories or posts or whatever. It's so cool. Like, yeah, trenches was definitely.
Yeah, there's a lot of heart reacts between the two.
Yeah.
Crunches was a fun set, and it was a fun time and so, like, this is cool to be talking again and be talking about movies.
Yeah. So we're talking about the King Arthur movie from 2004. I saw this in theaters. What about the two of you?

(02:39):
I watched it for this podcast. I listened to the critics and I did nothing go to see this film at all because this movie was pretty badly panned. And I was like, nope, I'm not spending my money on that. The side effect of that is, and this happens a lot when I do that. I watch the movie and I'm like, oh, that's not quite as bad as I thought it was going to be. So this is.

(03:02):
Yeah, you had built it up in your mind, right.
My bar was really low when I started it, and, like, it wasn't. Wasn't the worst experience of my life. So it gets that.
Yeah. I think there are definitely pros and cons for us to, like, go into on this movie. Lauren, how about you?
I saw it just at home and I had really high expectations because, you know, all the actors are amazing and the cinematography in the trailers looked beautiful. And it's supposed to be this epic story, and it is. So for me, you know, I saw it at home. You know, there are just times where I was like, interesting. Okay. I wonder what would happen if the story was different here and there. And so I think that was just my main question about the movie is, like, how could it have been different if the story here had gone differently?

(03:51):
Yeah. If it had more of a story.
Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah.
So rewatching it last night, I watched it a couple weeks ago and then had to rewatch it, but it occurred to me that this is the Jon Snow arc from Game of Thrones, except not being subverted in any way. We've got a knight on the wall, and I realize that Jon Snow and the wall on Game of thrones are based on Hadrian's Wall, but, like, we've got a knight on the wall who has to, like, range out into the wilderness beyond and deal with the wodes, the wildlings. Again, all this is based on the roman stuff anyway, so that's not that surprising. And then it's like, oh, well. But the bigger threat is this thing coming from the north.

(04:26):
In the case of Game of Thrones, it's the White Walkers and this, it's the Saxons, who might as well just be monsters because they are just cartoonishly evil.
They are very evil. Yes.
So there is that comparison, but it's a fairly straightforward movie. I would also draw a comparison with Troy. This came right on the heels of Troy and it's doing the same kind of thing. It is doing a. We're going to talk about some big, mythological, legendary kind of story and we are going to do. Here's the real version of it. We're going to do a 13th warrior, effectively in this case doing King Arthur instead of 13th warrior doing Beowulf or Troy doing the Iliad. You know, take those differences for what you will.

(05:05):
I think that the difference between those works and this and where this movie kind of stumbles is that those works are taking an established story and then kind of just stripping the supernatural elements out of it versus this one is taking a lot of stuff, like, it's more lore than specifically one single story and then stripping actually, most of the story elements out. We don't get the key dynamics between pretty much any of the characters that are part of, like, the arthurian lore. We don't have the affair of Lancelot and Guinevere. We don't have the individual knights stories. Like, they make references to them, but those are more kind of like league of extraordinary gentlemen style. Like, wink nudge nudge, ha. We reference Gawain's woman like, Without actually, like, doing, like, an adaptation of that story. It's just like, here's.

(05:52):
Here's kind of a broad concept of it, which should be my jam in some regards. Like, I really do love those kind of, like, deconstructions and I do rather like adding roman tapestry to everything, but.
Right, yeah, you do.
Yeah. But I think that the movie doesn't quite stick the landing because it's a. There's a lot of aesthetic that I really like which comes from having good costuming. It has good, you know, cinematography, generally speaking. It has a great cast, but then the actual. Why does anything happen? Doesn't make sense in the majority of this movie.

(06:28):
Yeah, I mean, I don't mind that they. That they get rid of the love affair. I actually think that it's a little more interesting to me to have, like, Arthur and Lancelot's big difference in just, like, how they view, like, their faith. And it is interesting to have Arthur kind of be in this position of power because he is part roman and he's part of the establishment and have his knights actually still respect him even though technically they are slaves to Rome because they're contracted out. I thought that was a little more of an interesting dynamic than just a love affair. And, like, don't get me wrong, like, I love the original story and I love the epic poem and all of that stuff. But I always kind of like, really? That's it. Like, it's. It's gonna.

(07:16):
It's gonna be love that ruins all of this. It's gonna be, like, in search of sexual delight. So I don't know. I found that a little more interesting. It's not as pronounced. It's done in such a kind of subtle way in the film that I don't think that it's, like, really drawn out. But I actually found it really interesting because it is a deviation from what you get. And there's so many King Arthur movies. There's so many.

(07:39):
That's true.
They actually didn't bother me. And I actually liked the camaraderie that he had with his table and, you know, the fact that he set them free and he was going to fight the battle on his own and that they used their freedom to come back for him because there is more of a bond that it's not just what the Romans made them do, but that they actually hold Arthur in high regard. So I actually, like, kind of like that dynamic. And that didn't really bother me in the breakdown of the myth, really. And actually, it made Arthur feel more heroic. It made me actually feel that the knights had a real love for him that's not just based on, like, well, he pulled a sword, so he's amazing, you know, like, for me, it gave Arthur a little more substance.

(08:25):
So I actually did like that in this version, that deconstruction.
I mean, I should clarify that. I'm not complaining that there was a thing removed from the story or something to that effect by itself. When I saw Troy in theaters, I was in Italy with my classical studies group. And, like, I had people who were like, well, that's not how it actually happened in the real story. And I'm like, what are you talking about? We're talking about a myth. Like, it's okay to make variations to that all. I'm not worried that, like, one particular thing was cut out. I just mean that, like, none of the arthurian legends really being represented. Aside from the basics.

(08:59):
It feels like an adaptation of the sword and the stone and then someone not familiar with anything more beyond just a quick Google search for references to put in there without actually, again, having the story be sort of an adaptation of it all. And that could theoretically be fine. It's just then what they insert to replace it is also logically difficult to really make work. Why is there a roman estate beyond the wall?

(09:23):
Good question.
That's the thing that the second act of the movie doesn't make sense.
Well, and also, the roman guy is just such a jerk.
Yes. Oh, they are cartoonishly bad. Did you all find it really funny that they put very heavy italian accents on all the characters who are supposed to be roman?
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. I thought it was cartoonishly hilarious, but.

(09:47):
Then, yeah, also super evil.
Yeah, I also, at the end, was just like, wait, so he's gonna, like, marry her? They're gonna have a child, and then that child is probably gonna, like, have to fight again. Like, be roped into this, like, continuous. I don't know. They're, like, prisoners until a certain age. Like, I just wanted them to, like, rise up against that at the end. Like, we fight for. Cause, but then, like, they don't say what calls it is, and you're like, oh, are they gonna just escape this cycle that's been going for years and years with, we have to fight for Rome until we're free? And we didn't see that, and I was like, oh, man, that would have been cool.

(10:23):
Yeah. I think that the end, they're fighting for a cause. That is, we are fighting to prevent the Saxons from coming into England. But the problem is, we're all very familiar with the term Anglo Saxon, which means that, like, they lose. Like, they lose hard.
Yeah. And I think that at the end, they're fighting for Britain, so they're no longer fighting for Rome. And I think they say that they're fighting for Britain. But he does also say that it is a family tradition to die on the battlefield. So I think no matter what, he was expecting his child to die, I actually thought for a moment at the end that, like, they were just going to kill all of them. Like, I just thought, like, on the battlefield, like, I just thought everyone was gonna die and was like, oh, well, the Saxons win, because I know that the Saxons win. So I thought, like, when Launcelot died, that Arthur was fighting him. I thought for sure Arthur was gonna die, too.

(11:11):
And it was like, oh, maybe no one liked it, because at the end, everyone dies, and it's like, oh, well, you're King Arthur's no one. Saxons for life. And I thought that was going to be the end of the movie.
Yeah. All right, let's talk about the Saxons, because it's the big thread of this movie, and, like, I. Generally speaking, the nights, I like the casting, there's some weird stuff that we'll talk about. But, like, I generally like the actors and, like, how they, like, vibe with each other is all pretty good. Like, I really like seeing them, like, interact. Having them go on a suicide mission is, like, kind of a fun second act thing, even though it doesn't make a lick of sense. And then, like, the choices he makes once he's on the suicide mission are even weirder. But the Saxons as this overwhelming threat. So, again, the term Anglo Saxon is extremely familiar to all of us because, you know, there's a lot of baggage associated with that, and it's difficult not to be aware of that concept of.

(12:10):
And then in this movie, we've got this whole thing where it's, like, don't interbreed. Like, don't have a, you know, like, don't touch their women. Like, don't. Don't muddy our pure sex and blood. And I'm like, that is explicitly not how they operate.
Yeah, yeah.
And then they just become, like, this boogeyman again. Like, I'm comparing them with, like, the white walkers, the others from Game of Thrones, and it is just this, like, very strange, like, parallel wherever they feel, like, this force of nature coming down and attacking villages, which, again, also north of the wall, it seems that there are plenty of villages that seem just normal. There's a lot of people north of the wall that just seem like normal british people or normal, like, roman citizen style that they, like present in this world. The geography's a little bit weird on that one.

(12:56):
Yeah.
But let's talk about Stellan Skarsgard, who is a pretty famous actor doing a portrayal of sort of a monstrous kind of figure. I don't know. What did you guys think of him as, like, a main villainous?
I mean, he always makes a great villain. Like, every time.
Yeah, I watched this back to back with Dune two, by the way, so, like, talk about amazing.

(13:17):
Yeah, right? Like, I saw June 2 in theaters, too. That was amazing. And he's great in that. I just think it comes down to, like, the Saxons being, like, this archetype of, like, they're bad. Like, we're hit over the top of the head that they're bad. Just, like, as a group in the story, in general, how it's done.
Yeah. They're basically the cookie cutter invaders. They're invaders. And that is what it is. I think that, like, Skarsgrd did as much as he could with what was given to him. I just don't think that in the script there was, like. I think when villains go wrong, and I think we see this a lot in the films that we talk about is, like, a lot of times you don't understand their complete motivation, right. So, like, other than invading and destroying, we don't know why the Saxons want this land, other than, like, well, bad people want land. They like to burn villages. It's very difficult to kind of just feel like the villain is more than just an encroaching monster, right. Because really great villains always have a real drive, right?

(14:26):
They're after something specific or, like, the best villains want revenge, or they're after some sort of temple or they have a love that they want to bring back from the dead or something like that, right. And so you don't really get that with the Saxons at all. They are there, and they seem like a tribe of people who are really just bent on destruction. It doesn't even really feel like they're going to do anything after they go through and burn the place because you can't rape, because we don't want to mix bloodlines. We're not really pillaging. We never see them take any gold or any ore or anything else. And that's what we usually think of invaders. Right. So they're, like, literally there just to be a destructive force.

(15:15):
And so I think that they fall flat because as the audience member, other than, you know, that they are there. So his son mentions a campaign and he mentions going after this roman family to ransom them from Rome for payment. That could basically supply their entire campaign. But they never really say what that campaign is or what they're doing. And listen, like, feeding an army, that's expensive, for sure, but we don't really know anything else. You know what I mean? And so it makes them just bad. They're basically kidnappers in this movie. Very destructive kidnappers, now that I think about it. Because they're there to, like, kidnap the roman family and then extort the pope.

(16:02):
Right.
Yeah, because they. That's it. Like that. That is like their ocean's eleven, but, like, they're burning stuff to the ground.
Which, you know, would make sense if they had an established, we hate the pope, you know, situation. Like, frankly, like, if they were coming to rape and pillage, that would make more sense. But, like, the fact that we want them to be even more evil. We just want to kill them. We don't even want them to have, like, you know, sexual assault as, like, a motivation for them makes them even, like, less realistic characters.

(16:33):
Yeah, it's really odd.
Yeah. I think it's interesting because you said it exactly right. Like, the acting is amazing, but you can only do so much with the story that you have, and we don't have a backstory on them.
Like, Skarsgrd is. He's intimidating, which he's very good at. We know because we've seen him in other things. He's very good in this movie at being intimidating. He's good at keeping his son at bay. There's actually, like, a very distinct relationship between father and son, even in the limited amount of information given into the script. Like, you can tell that this is a very domineering father. This is a son who, if given the chance, would probably take his dad out. So those dynamics are there. The acting is there. It's just not in the script. Like, there's not more for them to do.

(17:20):
Right. And it's unfortunate because they are set up to be like, oh, here's the common enemy that the wodes and the Romans are going to come together about. So having them be this big bad is good from the perspective of, like, well, we need to have that for the story beat to make sense. But I. They just feel like a force of nature. And it's unfortunate because they are also interesting actors and we spend a lot of time with them. You know, like, if we never were really, like, with them beyond, like, very, like, limited flashes, they could be this ominous force out in the distance. But, like, the movie actually has quite a bit of screen time for Stellan Skarsgard because he's a huge name.

(17:59):
Like, he's right.
Like, on Wikipedia, he's third build before the person who's doing all the voiceovers for everything in this movie. All right, so let's flip around and let's talk about the voiceovers and then also the actual nights themselves. So, first off, I hate that we open with this, like, text crawl or not even crawl. Just, like, text block of, like, by the way, we figured out who the real King Arthur is. It's this guy. And, like, having to have, like, that block of text and then. And I'm gonna butcher this name. Joan Gruffald.

(18:33):
I think it's Yohan Griffith.
It's a Griffith, so I know it's a welsh name. Like, I'm sorry about this. Reed Richard from the Fantastic four movies. He plays Lancelot in this movie. He does the voiceover at the beginning, which, completely unnecessary. Feels like such an editorial note of, like, oh, yeah, we're requiring you to put this in because people aren't gonna understand. There's too much text up front, both between the actual text and then, like, the voiceover stuff. I don't think we needed that voiceover. It kind of muddies who's the main character in this movie. I think that, like, having any kind of focus on Lancelot is a bad choice for a bunch of reasons. One is that he's the Lancer, he's not the hero, and we're not really in his head for the whole movie.

(19:13):
Like, it'd be one thing if we had more voiceovers throughout, something about his perspective, something about him informing us, but we don't. It's really just there at the beginning to set this whole thing up. And I think the scenes that we had of him being taken away from his family would have been way more interesting if they didn't explain it and we had to pick it up from context clues. I also really don't like that the Knights are all just these boys that get sent over. I would have loved some scenes that, like, show why they're good as boys, you know, like, if they're already so well trained and so forth. Like, we see him ride on a horse, and it would have been nice if his dad just, like, showed him some more pointers about riding on horses.

(19:46):
But it's weird that all the knights are just like, here's this, like, squad that we sent over to England from Russia or Iran, really, that are just going to be here. And they're all going to be these distinct characters that, you know, because, like, the arthurian knights, they all have, like, their own separate origins. Like, it's more like an avengers style thing or like a Jason and the Argonites type story than even something like Beowulf where, like, here's the knights in my company kind of thing. Like, each one of them has their story for, like, why they ride with Arthur.

(20:14):
Right?
It's a magnificent seven type thing, which structurally speaking, would have been great for this movie because it's basically ending with a siege of their castle. You know what? That might actually become my pitch now. Like, I'm saying it out loud that.
Actually, I heard it as it was coming out. I was like, we're in pitch territory now because your case is about to change this.
That I think might have taken that. So I like the actors. I like the idea that they're Russians. You know, they say Sarmatians, but they keep on saying Rus because the Rus tribe that eventually would become between all the different intermarrying and so forth become the Russians. I don't mind that idea. I like the idea of, you know, the iranian equestrians. There's this whole story about, like, horses, like, being brought over to Europe, you know, from the Middle east. And from Asia and, like, those kinds of peoples being, like, really interesting to the Romans, like, all perfectly fine ideas. I actually want less of them when they're young. Like, I only want to see Lancelot.

(21:06):
I don't want to see the other boys so that each one could have their own story, because right now, it's a squad of teenagers that all get taken at the same time. And there used to be more of them. A bunch of died. The ones we get, I like, and, like, fuck, man. The roundtable, like, that actual, like, room is such a wonderful set piece. Like, the table itself looks great, and we get not nearly enough of it. Only a couple of scenes around the roundtable. It's so good. Like, that roundtable is such a good set piece. It feels like a great reimagining in a realistic way, of the roundtable, but it has this roman vibe to it all. Great.

(21:45):
I want these guys to be hanging out, actually feeling like, I don't know, the Justice League that they are by the end of it all.
I hear what you're saying. I think we had enough roundtable. It was beautiful. But I don't think this movie would have been helped by them sitting at it anymore than anything else they did.
I think a strategy beating would have been nice later in the movie. But, you know, in terms of the actors, I find it strange that they all have, like, the exact names from arthurian legend, like, the fact that we have artorias, and then they, like, go out of their way to be, like, Artorias Arthur, you know? You know. You know who we're talking? Like, every time they say, artorias Arthur do this, like, you know, they keep on going that way.

(22:26):
Well, just in case any of us get confused in the audience.
But all of the knights have names from arthurian legend, but it's weird that they do for, like, one thing. Lancelot is a french name and is also a character that was introduced to the legend after the norman invasion because it's a french part of the story. And that's why there's, like, the weird, like, romance situation with Guinevere, because it's two different stories that are being intermingled with each other. And I did see a lot of people at the time complain about, like, where those deviations are occurring, and if you're like, oh, this is our actual story of King Arthur from a realistic perspective. It is weird when you have the stuff that we know for a fact came from other sources being mingled into it all.

(23:05):
I also get that Lancelot is without a doubt the knight that everyone can name besides Arthur in King Arthur's court without having to try.
Right. Even people who are not super into the myth of it, everyone kind of knows the name of Lancelot.
So I kind of wish that they had bastardized the names and made them kind of russian sounding rather than just going with, like, straightforward the name. Did either of you see the Northmen?

(23:28):
No, I did not get to. No.
With a Skarsgard, Alexander Skarsgard in the lead role. But it's Hamlet, but it's going full on in the danish names, so everything is, like, super danified for it. So all the characters have their equivalents to Hamlet, but it's going with, like, well, this is the Amleth kind of original story kind of thing, or likewise 13th warrior. All the characters in there have, like, much more, like, old english versions of the names than what actually appear in the Beowulf story, or I guess, more either swedish or possibly danish. And I think just having that, like, a small layer of abstraction between, like, the character names, like, either everyone has their names exactly right or they don't. And if you're gonna, like, lean into the Artorias part, like, I would rather lean into everyone else being, like, just a little bit different, because why not?

(24:12):
Especially since the characters are only nods to the existing characters from the arthurian lore, as opposed to being, like, perfect representations of it.
Yeah, it could offer, like, an interesting twist just to not be such a nod towards the original names.
Yeah, I think you could have fun with that as well.
And then you can kind of, like, go into some of the variations and have it not be so weird. Like Dagonet, Ray Stevenson's character. He is not a major character in the arthurian lore. They buff him up a lot in this part, and it's like, oh, cool, that's fun. And it's Ray Stevenson. I always am here for Ray Stevenson. Like, he's great. It's so sad that he passed away. So I happy to have him in this movie. He's playing the exact part that I expect him to play, which is the badass dad role, as opposed to the badass father of bastards, which is Ray Winstone. It's really funny that the two rays are the two bald, big guys that are on the team.

(25:08):
He plays boars, but dag is, like, the one who's going to be, like, your surrogate father who finds an orphan and takes care of him and is, like, will die nobly and so forth. Like, that's what I expect for Ray Stevenson, like, that's the kind of part he's going to play Zachary.
And I love those parts, too. Like, when we got little glimpses into their lives, too. Like, I was like, oh, that's so cool. Like, either they're all so different, you know, and they each have all these different perspectives, but they, like, have this shared trauma together that bonds them. You know? Even though they have such different outlooks on life, they're still bonded together. And I liked that. I liked those little snippets into their lives. That was cool. And, yes, it seemed fitting.

(25:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And then boars, as this, like, father of so many bastards. Like, I adored that.
I love that.
That was great.
And the way the team, like, joked about it, and he joked back about it, and it was just like. But he, like, at the end, he was like, you know, I really love those bastards. I would take them with me.
Right. Especially number three. He's a good fighter.

(26:09):
And then Lancelot was like, that one's mine. And everyone started laughing.
Yeah. Those moments where they're, like, riding together had, like, good camaraderie. I really like that.
Yeah, yeah.
It's very, like Lord of the Rings around the fire, like, kind of feel to it. Just my favorite part, actually.
Yeah.
We got mads Mikkelsen popping up pretty early in his career.
Yeah.

(26:29):
As their scout.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
He was my favorite because he had a falcon and I was my favorite.
Yeah. It's funny, the 13th wear comparison. He's the most, like, the scout character on that crew. Like, to the point where, like, the clothing is very similar, which kind of makes sense. Like, he's the ranger of the group, but it's just, like, fascinating being like, oh, he would become so much bigger as an actor. Like, so many of the characters in this, like, oh, their careers are gonna go in some interesting places after this. Like Keira Knightley, who we should probably segue over to. This is not. This is not a complaint about Keira Knightley. Keira Knightley actually very much complained about this movie at the time because in all the promotional material for, it increased the size of her bust.

(27:12):
Oh, really?
Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah. So if you look at the posters, and it's not, like, a ton because she is, like, wafer thin as a person. So it was like a wafer with a bump, as opposed to, like, just a wafer, but they, like, aggressively, like, do so at all the posters for it. She's very young in this. Like, she's, like, 14 years younger than Clive Owen at this point, he's, like, almost 40 when he shot this movie, and she is, like, 20. It's weird from that perspective. But on the other hand, it's not weird in Hollywood to do that. It also wouldn't have been that weird in the real world in the third or fourth century for that to happen. I think she's fine as Guinevere. I like the detail of her being rescued and being a wode and being a fighter.

(27:54):
It does feel very cliche that she's the archer of the group.
Yeah. But I don't know if we would have believed her in any other fight class. I mean, like, listen, I decided to look up some of the reviews just to rem, like, you know, after I had watched it, and a lot of people were incredibly unkind to her in the review, and a lot of it was very critical of her body and how thin she was. And they honestly did not even believe that she could be an archer. So I think, like, it would have hurt even more if they had tried to get her to swing a sword because especially in the time in the day and age that was already, like, her just being an archer garnered so much backlash. Like, one review I read was like, this waif of a person probably couldn't even pick up a bow.

(28:49):
So, yeah, I mean, like, I understand what you're saying. Like, oh, woman, distance, range, things like that. But in terms of to minimize whatever backlash would be there, I feel like it's probably the better option.
Yeah, it just seems cliche is really the only thing that bothers me. And in the last battle, she's rushing in with two short swords. So it's not like she's purely the archer in the team. It's just, like I said, it just feels kind of cliche, but hearing that, it does rankle my feathers because I'm like, no, but she's fine in this movie. I don't get the hate.

(29:22):
She got a lot of hate. Critics were not kind about this film in general, and I think part of it is right that it is King Arthur, and people have a certain expectation for King Arthur's stories, but she took a big brunt of it, and part of it was because of the poster with her final battle scene outfit that's just basically a strap, and the increasing of her bust on the posters and her complaining about it, and people were just really cruel about her in a lot of the reviews. And I don't think that she did, like, a terrible job. I actually think that, like, it was interesting that they kind of.

(30:01):
I felt like there was a weird kind of, like, a mixing of what would be, like, a Guinevere, a woad warrior, and, like, a little bit of like a morgaine Morgana kind of thing. Right. Because she's kind of there to also champion the woads and bring Arthur to this realization of, like, kind of seducing him into being, like, you must fight for, like, our cause. Like, a united people of this land kind of cause thing. Like, I didn't mind it at all, but some of the reviews did have a problem with, like, kind of seeing Guinevere in a more, I don't know, proactive role rather than just kind of someone who, like, Arthur had won the heart of. Or, like, Lancelot had, which is kind of crazy because she does cheat on her husband.

(30:49):
Right?
Like, I don't know. It's a little weird. It's like this weird thing that was happening on the reviews and in the online world. But I thought Kira was fine. I thought she was fine. You can tell she's very young. You can tell that Clive is older than her. But she seems sure of herself. She actually looks pretty decent in all of the battle scenes. I mean, I think this is after pirates, though, right? So she's already kind of swashbuckled once.

(31:15):
Yeah. And this is a Jerry Bruckheimer produced movie also.
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that for what it's worth and for what the movie is, she's fine. And by this time, she has let go of that kind of bad habit she had with, like, always showing her teeth. That drove me crazy. And bend it like Beckham. Even though I really liked her in that, I don't. She's just, like, kind of like to show her bottom and top teeth in a weird way. But she stopped doing that by this movie. And so it was fine. She was fine.

(31:44):
Yeah. I like that you brought up the, like, the Morgan Le Fay kind of comparison. Like, that is, I think, the biggest thing that I feel like could have been, like, teased or played with in this movie. And it would have been really interesting if they just, like, said fuck it to Guinevere as a character. And we're just like, she's Morgan le Faye, and just leaned into it and didn't say that. It's like, it's Arthur's half sister, but let it kind of linger. That is, frankly, for me, the big Arthur story that is worth talking about, which is Arthur, after the pulling of the sword, Arthur being seduced by his half sister breeding Mordred and then having his nemesis be his own son, that could have been played around with in this sort of setting.

(32:28):
They talk about how he's half Britain and you could have done something with that. I don't know where you would have fitted in, necessarily. So not like hard pitch territory, but like I said, if Keira Knightley was just Morgan le Fay or just Morgan or Morgana, or however you want to make it all historically, blah, blah, yeah, you could have had that be, like, a lingering thing out there. And then everyone in the audience who's aware, being like, oh, I know what's going to happen when they have a kid. It's not going to be good. It's not going to be good guys.

(32:58):
Which, honestly would have made more sense because we know eventually the Saxons will come back and take over. So, I mean, I think one of the biggest failings of this film is, like, the heroic speeches. They were so popular at this time. Those kind of fell flat in this film.
All of the speeches about freedom fell flat for me. For one thing, it's a movie about, like, a character who's going to become king, talking about how every man is free, right?

(33:25):
It doesn't make sense. He's going to be the once and future king, right? He's the king of legend and he's talking about equality. It's not that he's bringing real freedom. It's weird to be like, the Romans are leaving, so we're getting rid of them and we're gonna get rid of the Saxons. But don't worry, I, your leader, your one leader, will bring you freedom for everyone.

(33:50):
Right? Like, I get that there is a stance of, like, well, England was never as feudal as, like, France or Germany or, you know, the Holy Roman Empire. A lot of the sort of, like, old concepts of, like, the vassal states and fiefdoms and so forth. Like, a lot of that is mainland Europe in a way that, like, the Anglo Saxon controlled, like, old english era of England, is not egalitarian. But, like, it was a little bit more so than after the norman conquest when, like, much more traditional kind of. At that point, european, like, nobility structures was, like, imposed. And I get that England has this whole thing about the magna Carta and being, like, a constitutional monarchy and having a lot of that doesn't make sense for this period, like, at all, for anyone involved.

(34:33):
And this movie has a big chip on its shoulder when it comes to, like, the church.
Yeah, for sure.
So I was a practicing Catholic when I saw this movie, and I'm much more agnostic nowadays. So, like, it's interesting where I was watching it then and, like, kind of fine with being like, well, yeah, but some of them are monsters and bastards. Like, Roman Catholicism has a lot of bad shit associated with it, especially when it comes to purging out different people's points of view about how Catholicism should work. So the pelagious arc, I think, is totally fine, except it's weird where it's just like, he was just talking about how people are free and that's why we have to kill them. And then the roman estate again, north of the wall, everyone's listening to this guy for some fucking reason. I don't understand where they're just torturing people and locking them up to die and so forth. Like, that's pretty extreme.

(35:23):
So much so that they care about doing it, like, when they're on their way out. Seems pretty nuts. And then it's kind of just there for Arthur to be like, oh, you've gone too far. We have to balance our faith with the faiths of the people and have freedom of religion for everyone as well as every man is born free. It just feels very, like rah. Like, kind of rah America, which is weird in a movie about the king of England.

(35:45):
Well, it's kind of rah. Like Church of England. I mean, a little bit too definitely. Like. Like, you Catholics are evil, we Anglicans, right?
Like, when they. There's that whole walled up house thing, right? Which I don't know how he knows that people are in there. I guess he just assumes maybe I missed it, but he's like, well, he.

(36:09):
Notices that they keep on, like, walling it up while they're, like, trying to pack up.
Okay. Because he's like, we must get in there. We have to get in there. And he, like, gets in there and it's, like, horrible. And we're all like, I get like, yeah, it's horrible. But it gives you this feeling of, like, it's set up for us to say, wow, look at King Arthur. He is calling attention to the fact that this is terrible. It feels, like, very set up. I just wondered if they could have maybe not done with that scene or maybe did the story differently there. I don't know. What do you guys think?

(36:43):
Yeah, it's like, almost the point of comedy by the end of it all. Like, the two monks or priests or whatever that, like, the. Where they. They're in there ready to, like, sit out their days until, like, they starve to death or whatever. Then Arthur, like, breaks down the wall, pulls them out, pulls out the victims, puts them back in, re bricks them up. Then the Saxon show up, takes them out, then puts them back in there at the end of it all.

(37:10):
And then burns the house.
Well, burns the house, presumably, yes, but.
Like, because that's what the Saxon. They just light everything on fire.
Yeah. When they take that estate. That estate was pretty nice like that. Like, just make that your base of operations at that point.
That's not what they're about. They're about total destruction. Remember, they don't have any goal.
What do they. Like, what is their goal? Yeah, I wanted to, honestly, setting that.

(37:34):
A state makes no sense because they were going there specifically to kidnap these people, to ransom the pope for them. Right. But, like, those people ran and, you know, they left stuff behind because they're roman, and there's no way they could have packed up all of their crap into the wagons, which means, like, they probably could finance whatever their said campaign is from the stuff in the house alone.

(38:02):
Right.
So, like, why would you burn it down?
Yeah. It's also, like, a very nice italian villa. Everything, when they're, like, showing Roman is such shorthand for, like, okay, so, like, there's this whole thing about how, like, in movies, we always show Rome as if it was, like, during the time of Julius Caesar, which is very much true in this movie. And so even though this is, like, 5th, 6th century, something, like, I keep sliding it down, but, like, we'll say, even though this is, like, fifth century, everything is shown as, like, republican Rome as we can get it. The villa looks like what you see in the italian countryside that were, like, built in the first century BC or the first century ad. And, like, their armors are all this way. They all have the italian accents.

(38:43):
It's almost like italian occupiers of Britain that the wodes were fighting, and now the Saxons have shown up, and now the wodes have a chance to freedom, or however you want to get into all that. But, yeah, the choices made, to have them be so cartoonishly evil themselves and also be living north of the wall, which is just weird, creates this whole situation where Arthur does the dumbest shit ever in the name of just espousing freedom, when he's like, every one of you has been free your entire lives, blah, blah, blah. And then he, like, walls him back up. I'm like, just fucking, like, shut the door. Like, you don't need to wall him up. Like, you don't. You're wasting so much goddamn time.

(39:19):
I thought when you're on the run.
I thought that I was like, whoa, you don't have time. What are you doing? Yeah, yeah.
And the crazy thing is that the whole going into this prison, it is, like, specifically, the only thing you really get is an adorable child. And Keira Knightley, like, that is what that is set up. And honestly, you probably could have introduced both of those characters any other way.

(39:46):
Yeah. Like, have them stumble across the party. I mean, even having them there isn't the end of the world. It's the fact that after he, like, frees them, he wastes so much goddamn time afterwards and, like, just gives a bunch of speeches.
Yeah. I mean, like, I was just like, if you're gonna wall, like, you know, wall them, why don't you just, like, kill him or set him free or spit on him and keep going? Like, it's just like, the Saxons are coming anyway. They're gonna die if they stay.

(40:09):
Yeah. Why even leave them to be informants? Like, just fucking kill them. Like, if you're that disgusted by them, like, execute them for being horrible people, because that's what you're doing by, like, locking them up.
You're just doing it the long way. Wasting time.
Slavery with extra steps.
It is. Yeah.
That's what you thought he was. He was giving them their wish, though, you know? Like, oh, fine, we'll put you back where we found you. But it just feels. It feels really weird.

(40:34):
Put them in the cages. Put them in the cages. Shut the door. Like, he says, wall them up again. It's the choice of words because we don't see the action. So, like, who knows if they actually do, but, like, everything feels like they don't have nearly enough time to do anything. And then he takes more time to waste on this all. And, like I said, it becomes comedic at the end when the Saxons show up and then put them back in there again, this time with more fire. I will say, though, this then segues into them having what is a pretty good action scene and a good explanation of how they're able to deal with, like, the superior numbers that's chasing them, which is like, the ice field. I actually rather laugh.

(41:08):
Oh, I love the ice field. Yes.
I love the archery. Used to try to keep them together to get the weight heavier on it. I think that's pretty cool. It's a good dramatic sacrifice by Ray Stevenson. Good stuff there. It's really funny when it's just like, they're outside of the range of our archers, and it's just like, we're going to show you that we're better archers, right? Which also, I was like, is that like an english longbow thing? Like, are they also trying to, like.

(41:31):
Is this all it could be? Again, honestly, could be. It really did feel like, at some point, english propaganda of this film, right?
Like, we, the English, like, we have a constitutional monarchy, so we are more free than any other monarchy. It's not an autocratic state. We also are Anglican as opposed to Catholic, because the Catholics, they go too far. But we don't go too far with our religion. We don't behead women for marriage purposes.

(41:56):
Only when we first started the church.
Only then, thousands of years later, and we've got the best archers.
But, you know, King Arthur would have never done that with the Church of England.
Just fun fact about the english longbow. So when it became a popular weapon of the english military, it was actually so important that people develop the arm strength to use the longbow because it's really hard that other games were banned. So archery contest became, like, the de facto thing at, like, bars and stuff, because, like, that was the only, like, game that they were allowed to do because they had to, like, strengthen their arms to do it. It was just like, no, you should be practicing your bow all the time, which is wild to think about. Like, oh, well, instead of darts, what about. What about handguns? So anyway, so we get the icing, which is actually really cool, then they come back and they bring alecto back to the bishop, and they are now free men. Yada, yada.

(42:51):
Everyone is told to leave because the Romans are pulling out and the Saxons are coming, and Arthur's like, I'm gonna stay, and he gets them all. I like when everyone shows up in their full armor. I actually dig the look of the different styles. Like, Arthur has this very roman design to the armor that he wears, and the rest of them had this very russian design to it. I keep saying Russian instead of Rus Ian, because language, fuck off. But, yeah, I dig the different kind of styles for it. I find that the strategies are kind of weak in terms of how they win against this unending force of Saxons. If the wodes are so numerous that they're able to do anything, it feels weird that they even need Arthur, really. They just need a good base or a good plan.

(43:38):
And as a result, I kind of feel like the third act, the second act doesn't need to happen, and then the third act is too fast. Like, now that I have this idea of, like, well, what if it was seven samurai? Or magnificent seven style. The siege of Hadrian's Wall should have been way more of the movie because as it is, it's the final battle, but it's like kind of an uninteresting battle by itself.

(43:58):
Yeah. I mean, honestly, if you cut out most of that building the wall back up and speeches about freedom, you could do that. You could afford to do that without affecting the runtime too badly.
Yeah. And this is a movie that had a director's cut, so it had stuff that they wanted to put in there. Like Pelagius actually shows up as opposed to just being referenced a lot, but he's only in the director's cut.

(44:19):
Huh. Interesting.
In flashback, you know?
Oh, yeah. Because I was like, wait, isn't he dead? How did he get there?
Right. It's not like he just all of a sudden appears. It'd be great if he was their Merlin.
They didn't murder me. I ran away. I'm here to join Britain and create a new church, the Church of England.
So we should probably take a second to mention Merlin, who in this is reimagined as being a leader of the wodes, as opposed. They say, oh, he's a dark magician, but we see nothing that really corresponds to it.

(44:47):
Right. It's just more like he's got tricks in the woods. He can really manipulate you through the woods, and people kind of see him as a dark wizard and ghostly because of that. That's probably because of guerrilla warfare, because it's what the wodes seem to be good at.
Yeah. Speaking of Game of Thrones connections. So this is Steven Delane, who was Stannis Baratheon, who. I did not realize that until I looked up because full beard and long hair just does not look like this balding knight character from a totally different series.

(45:21):
Right. And he's mostly blue and shot in a lot of shadow.
There were several spots where he was sitting with his war council, and I could not track which one was Merlin because they're all just dirty men with big beards.
Yeah. It's still more light than the last fight scene in season eight of Game of Thrones, so.
That's true. I could see slightly better. They all look the same, but I could actually see them. I do wish that there was something to kind of set up more of, like, the magic part of it or like, to keep the reputation part of it. I guess what I'm getting at is because act two is kind of an inconsequential side mission for them, and then they come back and deal with the main thing, I would have rather spent more time with the wodes to see them. We spend a ton of time with the Saxons, but I would have loved to see more of a sense of why the wodes are so scary and why they would be huge allies for this force.

(46:11):
I think you only get a piece of that when Arthur's men are in the woods on their way to go save the family. And it's like the really cool scene with all the shooting of the vines out and kind of, like, trapping them and kind of leading them through the forest the way that the roads would like them to.

(46:32):
I love that. Yeah.
Very aggressive means, but I do think that's kind of cool. And that can be, like, at night, seem like magic, and that's not necessarily a problem. Like, you know, like, I thought, like, that was a really cool scene, and I actually thought that would come more into play in the final battle against the Saxons. But I do think that, like, at the end of the day, it is kind of like you only get a taste of it and just not enough, really.

(47:03):
Yes. I totally agree. I think they were trying to give you a sense of the magic. Right. But we don't see that at all, which is interesting, because they don't kill them. Right. They're like, you know, direct them here where we want them to go in the forest, but they don't end up killing them. I just wanted to see a little more with why they wanted to partner up. I kind of was a little lost there and wanting more with that.

(47:34):
It's done, like, verbally, but you don't really, like a tell and not a show in any way. You know, it's like, the Saxons are here, so now we have to team up. And it's just kind of like, cool, cool, cool. Yeah. All right. You know, and Arthur walks away from that. Like, he never actually says to Merlin, you got yourself a deal, bub. Like, he walks away because the Roman in camp, who's a jackass, decides to hurt the kid, which, I mean, I don't know, because he's religiously fanatic and he needs to kill the kid because he should have died for God because he's pagan. I'm not even sure why he grabbed, like, these people are here to get you out of your situation, and then you take a hostage. Yeah, I don't like. I didn't like.

(48:25):
I was like, where are we going with this? Why are you taking a hostage?
Why are you so hostile about the pagans while they're running for their lives. Like, it's. Again, it's the whole thing about, like, the catholic church makes no sense in this movie, right?
And then basically, like, that's when, like, they run back, and then Keira Knightley shows up to shoot him and, like, oh, well, I guess we have a truce now because she shot a guy. I don't know. Like, it doesn't.

(48:52):
She shot the guy he's supposed to be protecting.
Right? Like, it's like, what?
Yeah, I was very confident. Confused by that also. There's, like, no ramifications from that at all. It's just kind of like, oh, right.
The sun's fine with it. The son's like, oh, yeah, my dad lost his way. Which is, like, sure. Like, you know, a very emotionally, like, mature perspective, but at the same time, like, also not realistic. Right?

(49:14):
Yeah. The son was like, my dad was a dick. I'm so glad. Thank you so much for shooting him.
I hated that. I was like. I mean, my God, you know, I get that he was a jerk, but I. Yeah, I don't know. I'd be pretty pissed.
It was, like, really funny, because, of course, Arthur is a better person, so he, like, rides up to the window. He's like, I'm really sorry for your loss. Like, I'm really sorry my future wife murdered your dad. Oh, yeah.

(49:41):
And I also, like. Like, there's no feeling of, like, shit. Like, were supposed to be protecting this family, and, like, now he's dead. Like, this could be bad for us. Like, there's none of that. They're just like, nah, it'll be cool. No problem.
Yeah. Like, if the son had been pissed off about it, they would have been killed when they got back to the wall.

(50:01):
Right? Well, also, like, the bishop isn't upset about it at all either.
Like, so we all agree that the dad was a dick.
I know that the son was, like, priority, right? But, like.
Like, protect this family, but when the dad dies, it's fine.
Like, he's not the favorite of the pope, so that's cool. No problem.
Well, but let's, like, actually explore that logic, though, because, like, sure, Alecto is supposed to be the favorite of the pope, okay. Or, like, the favorite godson of the pope, which implies that his dad, or at least his family, has, like, strong connections to the pope already. Like, and they are given up. He's like, oh, Rome gave us this, like, chunk of land north of the wall, which is, like, cool beyond our protection. Like, you go live in the frontier surrounded by.

(50:42):
Which, like, makes me think that the pope didn't really like him, but go on.
You can have walls at that goddamn villa. Like, what the fuck? Like, they're north of, like, roman defenses, and it's just like, oh, here's our space. So. But you would think that, like, the dad would, as a result, be, like, well connected and, like, kind of liked by them, or at the very least, like, you know, have, like, family connections that sort of require them to, like, put up with them again. It's just weird that, like, there. There's nothing that happens because the dad dies.

(51:09):
Right.
Well, and, like, none of those other soldiers, like, said anything because, like, okay, like, Arthur's men, they're not going to say anything. And, like, probably the people traveling with them, like, the servants and shit, like, he seemed like a dick, so, like, they're not going to say anything, but his soldiers were totally down with trying to kidnap the kid at his order, and they're not going to go back and just be like, you know, aside from the fact that, yes, a lot of roman soldiers at this time were also slaves and they really honestly didn't care. Maybe that's the fall of the roman empire, but that's not the point. The point is he had soldiers and they said nothing.

(51:43):
Right? Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
It was, like, such a weird, like, moment. It was like, so, like, no one's in trouble because, like, he was told when he, like, basically when he told the kid's father, the Roman, to, like, get his stuff and just move, like, when. And he kind of freed all the slaves and all that stuff and did all the things, like the Romans. Like, when you get back, you're gonna be court martialed. You're gonna pay for this. Right. So he, like, did feel like he had authority to, like, threaten Arthur's, like, role within Rome, but, like, then he died and I guess no one cared, right? Everyone.

(52:22):
Everyone was like, all right, we'll just all have the same backstory that this, like, guy got shot or eaten by, like, a bear or something along the way. Everyone just had the same backstory, I guess, and it was like, cool.
Yeah, he fell down the cliff. He was trying to take a piss and. No, no.
Right?
It's like. So we have an easy out, which is we just say it was the Saxons. No, no. We all agree he violently shit himself to death. Okay. Yeah. So we're all agreed.

(52:45):
Violently shit.
That's the way to go. Yeah. Okay. I think so. We've sort of summarized this whole movie at this point because were talking about, like, goods and bads. And the whole movie is like, this whole one thing I do want to, like, bring up color correction on this movie. So the cinematography itself is pretty good. Like, there's a lot of, like, jib work. There's probably some helicopter shots in there. A lot of things look really good in this movie. But the color correction looks like ass. The shade of green that they use for, like, any sort of natural effect, like, grass is like the sickly shade of green. Like, the color correction on everyone. Like, just, like, looks a little off. There's, like some kind of filter going on. And I get it. It's 2004 in the wake of the Matrix being successful.

(53:31):
We're coming right off of a brother wear out thou in terms of like, oh, shit. We can do color correction and do a lot of digital stuff. And we're right before we get into the wave of everything being like, teal and orange. So I understand why the color is bad, but it's bad. It's really bad.
It's a lot of green.
Yeah.
It feels very drab. And it makes what is already a movie with not a lot of depth in it feel really dour. Like, it just feels bleh. Right? Because, like, the color is just so, ugh. I think they're trying to make it feel, like, gritty, realistic, and it just makes it look boring.

(54:11):
Yeah. And it's unfortunate because realistic wouldn't have been a bad choice for this movie. It's just, it's not really that realistic. It just, like, it just. It looks like you crank the hue and the saturations and, like, weird ways. Long story short, while the movie is shot well, it ends up not looking that great. Like, it's fine. I would say overall this movie is, like, not a good movie. But it's like, I'm not mad that I watched it once. I am mad I watched it twice.

(54:38):
I think if it's like, something that's on tv and you leave it on while you're, like, folding laundry and shit, like, it's perfectly fine. Like, this is not necessarily a bad movie. Like, if this was a movie that back in the eighties channel eleven had bought to play over and over, like, every Saturday for a month, I probably would have put it on a couple of times. I would have changed the channel a couple of times. But, like, while I was cleaning or doing something, it'd be fine. Be fine.

(55:04):
Yeah.
Again, it just has so much potential, you know? Like, the actors are fucking amazing. Right? It's just like the story, man. I just wanted to see it go a different way or, you know, go.
Away, go some direction, or it just didn't add up.
So, yeah. I mean, was I mad that I watched it? No. Would I watch it again? No.

(55:26):
Yeah. So, good rental, not a great buy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think there's something to be said for a good enough looking movie with good actors doing cool scenes. There's always going to be a space for that in movies. And, like, there's a couple cool scenes in this one. There's not enough for the runtime, but there's a couple cool scenes in this one. So, like, yeah, it's fine, but it could have been better. So why don't we take a break and when we come back, we are going to have some pitches for this movie. And until then, see you in a few.

(56:00):
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And we're back. All right, so, Lauren, we're now in pitch territory. There's one rule and one guideline for how we approach the pitch section. So the guideline is that we are trying to take it from the perspective of when this movie came out. So, like, understanding the circumstances, understanding the field of movies that were out there, understanding that, like, if an actor is going to go on to be big but isn't big yet, you can't be like, oh, his part should just be bigger. As a result, recasting is a thing, but we try to go against it because there are reasons why you end up with the cast that you did. Trying to understand the logic for why this movie was made is why we play with this as opposed to just fully script doctoring it.

(57:12):
And then the other thing is that I am not allowed to go before Sam, so I can go in any spot besides first. Basically, as long as Sam goes before.
Me, trust me, it's for the best.
So, Lauren, you are our guest. We could do this collaboratively because I don't have, like, hard notes. Honestly, my pitch came together while were talking so we could do this, like, all collectively, but, like I can't take the first swing at it. So if you want to take the first swing or have Sam take the first swing, that's up to you. You're our guest, so you can decide. I'm just not allowed to go before. Sam.

(57:42):
Sam, do you want to lead the charge?
Sure. Sure, I will. Before I begin, I didn't, although I did bring up a lot of good points while joking. I actually didn't, like, hate this film. So, like, my notes are kind of very simple. Like, case, I think that we have to choose between the placard card in the front, like, the words or the voiceover. And I'm okay with leaving, like, words, like the placard card in, but I think we should get rid of the voiceover because I think it's actually really confusing that Lancelot is speaking because I thought this was going to be a movie from the perspective of Lancelot. So I would, as case actually suggested earlier, I would actually just kind of have that moment of Lancelot getting taken, that kind of thing.

(58:31):
I will add, I do like the thought of, like, having his name be one thing and maybe having the Romans change it. I'm fine with that. Right. And just being like, have him have a different name and then have someone be like, your name's now Lancelot. Get in the, you know, get in the cart.
Oh, like an Ellis island scene.
Yeah. Like, like, from here on out, that's your name. Just to kind of give us, like, that feeling of total loss of identity. Because I think, like, what's implied in this movie is the knights all have this loss of identity. Right. Because they're taken from their families by the Romans to kind of defend in this land that they don't know. And so I think it's fine to do it like that. I think it's fine to have them have, like, more athletic names when they're picked up and then, like, have the Romans just, like, rename them, like, whoever's training them, like, no, that's too hard to say. Your new name is this. So kind of that way we can still have, like, a continuity with that stuff? I'm fine with them, like, growing up.

(59:30):
And although I did, like the case, like, we should give them individual, like, moments. I'm fine with how it transpires into the future, whatever. And I'm kind of okay that this is not fully 100% like, the regular run of the mill, like, one of the many stories told about King Arthur's court. I would absolutely, positively, if not cut down or cut out. I would cut down the roman villa scene behind the wall. God, it's so stupid. I'm gonna leave it in because I just don't even know where else to go. I'm like, look, it's dumb. It's dumb because why would he go beyond the wall? But we're just gonna leave it in and we're gonna let him see Kira Knightley. But we are gonna cut out so much of that.

(01:00:16):
She's just gonna be working there, kind of enslaved, and he is going to free her. But this is also a plant by the woads. And as they are traveling back through, the woads are actually going to help them in the woods, kind of, like, thin the ranks, because I want more of them. I need more of them. And this can happen before or after the ice scene, which has to stay. Absolutely must, must stay. Probably after. I think it's better. But I think that we need something to solidify these two teams coming together. And I think that the only way to really do that is after the ice scene, our lovely bad guys get back on track. Our white walkers. I'm just gonna call them white walkers.

(01:01:01):
Our white walkers get back on track, and as they're heading towards the wall, you know, they're karting their bodies and they're a little bit slower, and they think that they're actually done for, which actually adds more tension. And that's when the woads come out and start doing exactly what they did to them when they first started their journey, except now they're doing it to our white walkers and using their gorilla warden warfare to kind of hold back and delay this, because I think that we don't have a real reason other than, like, Guinevere's hot, and so now I'll consider her. And I'm so good and kind as Arthur. So I think, like, that's where I would.

(01:01:41):
I would basically just like, fine, you can do the rescue mission, if only because it gives you tension to getting back, but you have to cut out, like, the first conversation. Do the ice scene, and forget about the fucking monks. Just find Keira Knightley on the grounds. That's it. Forget about the monks. Forget about that stuff. Tell all the people to go free. You can still tell the Britons that are working for the Romans to go free without a speech of freedom. And then the ice scene, and then another mad dash through the forest where the wodes help and trapdez and kind of then Arthur and he make peace. And then you get the final battle, which is a larger siege with some tide and gorilla warfare, which I thought, like, the oiling of the ground was pretty cool.

(01:02:26):
Like, the prep stuff was cool. I like the prep scenes for that. So I would leave that in, but I would definitely have that happen. And then I'm fine with the running horses and blah, blah. The knights will live on forever. That's fine. Okay, anyone else?
Okay. I agree with a lot of that. It's like, I don't know that I mind the voiceover. I don't even mind that it's Lancelot. I think it's, like, different that way. But I think if it's going to be a LanceloT voiceover, we need it to be like, I'm giving my view about King Arthur and his background because we get Lancelot's background and we don't get King Arthur's background. We don't get King Arthur and his family and all that situation stake for him. You know, his family perish. You can keep the Lancelot narration, just make it more King Arthur focus, like, up front. And then I kind of want to see more of the other nights.

(01:03:23):
We get bits of that, but, like, we're supposed to get this feeling of, like, camaraderie and that they've been fighting together for all these years, but we don't see that. Like to see a little bit of that more. I would like to see more tension. Is it okay, Karen Knightley and that whole crew, the wodes? Is that what they're called?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay. I want to see more tension there and then I want to see, like, why they're agreeing to work together with them because it just kind of doesn't come together for me. It's not clear that they make this pact or why. I love what you said, the guerrilla warfare and why their tactics against all of these numbers are going to defeat them. You know, nevertheless, even though, you know, they're outnumbered. That would be cool. There's not enough interaction with the wodes about why they pair up the wall thing and building the wall and putting the people back in. Like, that could go.

(01:04:17):
Yeah. I mean, I think also to your effect, I mean, like, if we had a moment, and I think this would give the Saxons more screen time. If we had a moment where there was a run in with Saxons and woads.
Yes.
Right. Like, then we have a moment of, like, oh, shit, like, we're not safe because, like, at this time, right, like, Arthur is basically, like, he's part Britain, he's part Roman, but he's seen as a tool of the Romans and the two of them have fought each other forever, and there are clearly people on the council for Merlin, for the wodes, who don't agree with Merlin about Arthur. And so, like, there is a lot of wasted potential of possible political intrigue here. Right? Because not everyone's going to be on board with what. But if they have a run in with the Saxons, then people are more on board, and then that gives you a little more, like, yeah, I wanted.

(01:05:14):
To see, like, what was that stake for them? Are the wodes, like, worried about, you know, their survival? Have they been treated like shit in the past? Like, I just. I wanted to see some more of that. For sure would be great.
I feel like, since mine isn't, like, a full pitch, let me throw out something that would actually, like, address issues that both of you had, which is that, what if, instead of it being a roman villa, like, that's north of the wall, what if the wodes, because we have them sneak south of the wall and making attacks, what if they capture this family and pull them off? And then it's a rescue mission, but it's a rescue mission where they take prisoners, including Guinevere, if you want to do it that way, where we can set up that. Like. No. They have this huge enemy in the form of the woads, which, by the way, the wode part is in reference to the color of the dye, so it's supposed to be a nickname that they have in the movie.

(01:05:58):
They're the picks, is what they're supposed to be from a historical perspective, but they're called the woads in the movie. So have the woads be a force that they have to contend with that we actually see? Like, it's not just that one fight at the beginning of the movie. Like, that they consistently are at odds with. And, like, the first time that they actually come together at all is when the woad prisoners that they have help fight the Saxons, when the Saxons start catching up with them. Them. So that way you can have sort of, like, that transition of the common enemy being the thing that brings them together.

(01:06:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And then that way, you can occupy the first half of act two with that, as, like, you think that the main problem is this, and, like, you hear that there are Saxons in the north, but that is only something that they reference, and then the Saxons actually catch up to them, so we don't show them, like, arriving and so forth, unless you want to, like, do a shot of them attacking or something like that. We do not need to spend a lot of time with the Saxons early in the movie because it should be a misdirect that really, like, we're focusing on the bad guy that we're used to fighting, which is the loads, and they are bad and they are rough and they are hard to deal with. And then it's like, oh, there's actually a bigger bad.

(01:07:00):
They are worse, and it's like, actually, we can kind of see the humanity in both sides because now we're forced to because there's this bigger bad coming our way.
Right.
And so that way you can segway from that. You still get the ice scene because that's when the Saxons catch up with them. That's where they actually start to make the alliance. And then you can get to Hadrian's wall faster. And then bringing the woads in and joining up with it can be sort of like one of the big tensions of the all. I realize that, like, this alliance is exactly what happens in Game of Thrones. It is, but that's because the story is already the same. Like, this movie is doing the exact same story, and I just think, have some more attention there would be helpful. And then, like I said, third act should be more the siege. But this way, you get the woads being the big bad in the first half of the movie until we segue away.

(01:07:48):
Right. And, you know, you can still have kind of this Arthur Guinevere mutual respect thing, sexual tension, blah, blah. But, like, it makes more sense. And you can do the prep scene and all of those things, and in exchange of knowledge, which is always kind of fun, you know, setting up some traps and booby traps, that's always fun. I love that in movies where people are like, no. Like this. It's like, oh, yeah.

(01:08:15):
Like, we do guerrilla warfare. That that's how we out beat the numbers, you know? Like, yeah, that'd be cool.
Like, here are the spikes that came out because, like, some of the stuff in the scene where they're in the woods, like, heading towards the north, it's really cool. Like, it was very formal. Like, barbed wire adventures coming out, being shot by arrows, those picket wooden blocks. I don't remember what they're called. I know they have a real name. Being, like, kind of shot up and kind of spooking the horses. All of that stuff's really cool. And that's only happened with the votes in, like, the woods. Other than that, the last battle is mostly, like, flaming arrows and, like, CGI fire pits all over the place.

(01:09:00):
Yeah. It's unfortunate that we don't see more of their tricks being used against the Saxons. Like, I think you hit the nail on the head that, like, the second half of act two should have been way more of them doing guerrilla hits on the Saxons and using the wodes that way. Or maybe the wodes are trying to fight the Saxons and losing, and so that way we get the alliance at the start of act three. Yeah, actually, now that I'm saying that part out loud, we should have seen Merlin's forces try to deal with the Saxons separately way more and have a little bit of effect, but keep on pulling back and keep on failing to defeat the Saxons and the saxon army being so large and powerful that they get pushed the way to the wall.

(01:09:38):
It's interesting because it, like, I guess partially to keep the mystery, but they kind of just sit in the woods and, like, someone brings a knife to him and he's like, oh, Saxons, okay, we're. We're in really big trouble. Like, I don't know. Like, he had the Internet. Like, he knew what kind of people they would be. Like, well, if you google them, they just burn everything to the ground and leave nothing behind.

(01:10:00):
No, I did my own research.
Exactly.
Exactly.
We really needed to establish that conflict and that the Saxons are such a big threat that Merlin can't deal with them. Yeah, that's not in this movie.
Right. Because he's, like, supposedly magical, too. Right.
I mean, even if it was just tricks, I mean, like, you get a little bit of, like, a smoky effect that I assume is brought on by the wodes when, like, the Saxons first, like, kind of go beyond the wall. You know, like, they get the first groove that are just spotter, but they don't really show you. Like, I wish they had, like, kind of shown, like, you know, the smoke being made and, like, someone, like, fanning it out or something like that. Ooh, the mist. The woads. They're scary Marlin magic. You know, like, just kind of, like, if it's just, like, sleight of hand, that's fine, you know, and that adds to the legend. That would be cool.

(01:10:51):
In fact, I feel like that's what they're trying to do here, and they need to do more of it.
Right. You don't really quite. Quite. It doesn't listen. I do think that audiences are smart enough, but sometimes I wish they'd show a little bit more. In this movie specifically.
Yeah, this movie is unfortunately cut down a lot. And so even if they had some of those scenes, it's unfortunate that we don't have more of them in the final product because, like, this is a King Arthur story that is being made in this sort of, like, more realistic kind of concept, or at least like a non celtic tradition kind of concept. But mysticism is stripped away on purpose. And I think that, like, considering that this comes out in 2004, this is in the wake of the Lord of the Rings trilogy being, you know, a massive hit. And one of the things about the Lord of the Rings trilogy is that it is taking, like, english folklore and trying to sort of, like, replicate a lot of it.

(01:11:42):
There's a lot of references to arthurian legend in it and a lot of subversions of it, but where the world is more magical in that world, and then this is one where it's like, well, what if the world wasn't more magical, but it was still epic? And so I agree. Having sleight of hand, having the trickery, having the reputation of being a magician be Merlin's because he's so cunning and so creative. It's like Aristotle, where supposedly the Romans were afraid of him because he just was so goddamn smart and whip up something that could destroy them. Have Merlin gain that kind of reputation. And then you're subverting the arthurian legend very intentionally as opposed to just sort of, like, hinting that, like, maybe it's not magic. Maybe he's just clever.

(01:12:22):
Yeah, right? I just wanted more of that. I just think things like that would be fun. Other than that, like, in the end battle, you're just making this other tribe kind of like fodder, right? Because, like, we've spent so much time just kind of watching this very small roman legion, right. Because it's just Arthur and his knights for all this things. They're just like a Navy SeaLs team. That's basically what they're like. They're specialists in some level to defend this wall. And then, I mean, they do have men, I suppose, like, they have villagers, but just feels like the wodes are doing all the heavy lifting and they're just doing regular battle, which didn't really feel like what they had been doing previously. They had been jumping out at carts. They had been kind of ambushing. I wanted to see more Trixie. Trixie.

(01:13:16):
I just wanted to have more fun with it. Even if it's more realistic, it should be more fun.
Like I said, it's disappointing that it is such a straight battle at the end because then it's like, well, what is the benefit of Arthur? Because a small cavalry of seven people is not enough to make a huge difference in a war. And so it's nice that they're good soldiers, but they're not making that much of a difference, which means that the loads are doing most of the work in that battle. And as a result, if they're doing most of the work and it's just a straightforward battle, weren't they already kind of going to win? Or at least weren't they in a good position to win before we got to the final battle? It seems to be more of two even sides facing each other as opposed to an underdog really coming through.

(01:13:54):
Right?
Yeah, I think we're all kind of in agreement here. If this was a bit more like a seven samurai, magnificent seven kind of end, like, have the second half of the second act and then all of act three, be much more about the siege of Hadrian's wall, I think that would have allowed for us to spend some more time in the cool set pieces that they built. We could have had a cool, like, scene where Merlin comes in and they actually strategize at the roundtable and get more of that, if nothing else, so that we can have a scene of them, like, discussing strategy there. It's too good of a table for how little we see it.

(01:14:27):
Yeah.
I'm normally not being like, man, the furniture in that movie is really good, but it's a really good looking fucking roundtable. I'm really happy with that one. And then. And this is a thing that I don't think you could actually do because the director's cut is bloodier. I think this movie needed to be more realistic in terms of the violence. I think that the fact that it is so tame. And again, I think that at the time, this part's not really plausible. The movie logic of the early two thousands was PG 13 was where it was at. They weren't really pushing for r rated movies. But this movie really needed to have that degree of violence because it's trying to subvert the much more fairy tale esque form of the classic arthurian legend.

(01:15:05):
So we need it to be grimy and dirty and sad and violent. I'm not saying that violence is always the answer, but in this particular one, it would have been.
I think you're right on that. Honestly, though, some more Trixie ness would have done for me.
I think, like, a little bit more blood when actual fights occur.
Maybe a spike going through a flight.
Yeah, yeah. Especially if the heroes had to deal with some more of it where it's just like, oh, yeah. Like, bad stuff happens on the battlefield, regardless of if you're the good guy or the bad guy, a little bit more of just like, yeah. Sometimes there's just unfortunateness to the world that you're in, and it doesn't distinguish based on if you're the protagonist or antagonist of the movie.

(01:15:39):
I mean, I actually think that, like, in this movie, the one thing that they did do is that they made sure that some of the good guys did die, which is, like, I was actually, like, kind of surprised because the rest of the movie has no teeth.
Right.
So, like. So it was, like, a very, like, distinct choice to make. Like. Like, literally, like, they killed off, like, three of Arthur's men by the end of the movie, which was, like, more than I expected. I definitely expected Rey. Once he made the bond with the child, I was like, oh, he's. He's gonna die. But, like. Right. It's just so. Especially for that era. Like, it was like, oh, no, he loves something. He showed affection. He's gonna go. But, like, I was actually surprised that I was like, oh, okay. Like, wow, they killed off mads. They killed off Lancelot. Like, wow, that. That was real. That was. That really happened, because the rest of the movie is so, like, stormtroopers shooting around. Like, it's just like, the bad guys fell.

(01:16:41):
But first of all, you only really know two of the bad guys, and everyone else that falls, you don't really care about. I'm actually gonna give them credit. They killed off two of the maintain.
Yeah, nice.
Good for you. Movie should have been a little more harsh in the battle scenes, I think.
I did want to see more guerrilla warfare. I really. I really. There was such an opportunity for that we don't get to see it, and I I just wanted to see, especially.

(01:17:05):
Because I think that if you have an invading force, this is King Arthur. It's not strictly historical. You should always try to employ the home alone method, I think.
I love that. It's so much fun, though, to watch, too, you know? Like.
Right.
Traps. We like traps.
Yeah, we do love traps.
We love a montage where they set up traps and then we see the traps happen.

(01:17:28):
I mean, like, that's one of the things that I, like, loved in the 13th warrior, too. Right? But, like, here you have the Saxons. They don't know this land. We don't know why they're here, but they don't know this land. They don't think. But the truth is that Arthur, his knights and the wodes, they know a lot about this land, and so, like, they should use it they should use this land. And it's fine. It's fine if people, like, if people make the argument like, whoa, well, a guerrilla warfare, blah, blah, Europe, blah, it doesn't matter because the Saxons will win anyway. And, like, this knowledge will be gone. So, like, let it happen. Let it us have fun. Let us have fun.

(01:18:10):
Set some dune where they hide in the sand. Right. And they have that, like, straw that they breathe through.
Yeah, I was going to bring that up if we didn't reference it. Dune two is very good for guerrilla warfare.
Yeah.
If anyone has any doubts about seeing that movie, like, yeah, I should see the first one first. But. Because there are so many words in that series that you will not understand. But it's very good at having these, like, surprise traps. I was thinking about that a lot when I was watching, especially the woad ambush at the beginning of the movie. I was like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, it's like Dune.

(01:18:41):
Yeah.
Then we don't get more of it. And that's what this movie really needed.
I couldn't agree more.
Either home alone or Dune new. That's what this movie needed.
Well, I mean, like, when you really get down to it, isn't home alone just an adaptation of Dune part two? Isn't there that great scene where Macaulay Culkin just stares at the camera and goes, the spice must flow.

(01:19:12):
And then he tells him to leave the pizza on the counter.
And there's that great line from Paul Atreides. Keep the change to filthy animal.
Exactly.
Okay, so I think we're kind of just, like, all in agreement here, which is the movie could have used a little bit more violence, but definitely needed more traps. And honestly, the whole subplot of, well, we have to go to this roman villa up north. Could have been a way to explore the relationship between Arthur and the wodes a lot more than what we got. And I think we're all kind of, like, okay with one of the bits of opening stuff. If it was the text block or the narration. If it was the narration, I feel like we should have gotten a little bit more. And I would have rather spent more time in Lancelot's head as opposed to kind of just jumping into the modern movie so quickly.

(01:19:57):
I wish that the knights weren't all established as being like these teenage boys that are riding off, you know, just show Lancelot and just allow the others to have an air of mystery about what their backgrounds are. But I think we're kind of all in agreement, like a little more guerrilla warfare some more traps, have the siege matter a bit more, have some more sequences about it, not just, like, one big battle at the end. Would have been really nice. Yeah, and don't have, like, such straw Catholics and straw Saxons in both scenarios. They're just needlessly evil for the sake of being evil. And it would have been nice to at least have them be a little bit more relatable and believable in your movie. That's supposed to be the more relatable, believable King Arthur.

(01:20:35):
Yeah. More backstory there would have been good so that I could connect.
I mean. What do you mean? I'm a Roman Catholic. I put people and pizza in the same muffin. Oh, my God.
I was like, where are you going?
I was aborting it halfway through, and I was like, it's too late.

(01:20:56):
But. But they. They definitely are, like, playing into some italian stereotypes in this movie.
It's so bad. It's so bad, though. Like, it's so bad. Like, listen. People listening. You never, ever have to watch this movie. But his accent is so thin for no reason, and he hates everybody. And, like, when they're like, we have to leave. And he's like, no, this is my house. I'm not leaving, like, at all.

(01:21:21):
Like, how annoying was that, too? It was like, oh, my God, dude, like, you have to leave. Like, I wish the story was different that he was like, oh, yeah, I guess I'm gonna die if I don't leave. I get it. Right?
Like, right?
Like, he was gonna ask to speak to the manager, right? Yeah.
God. Did you know there's a video game based on this movie?

(01:21:42):
No, I did not.
Yeah.
You know what? That kind of makes sense, though, because some of the battles felt very different.
Yeah. It's one of those, like, ps two era. So it's like a God of war clone, kind of like the Lord of the Rings one.
Oh, wow.
Yeah. So it's just. Oh, man. This. Okay, I will say this. If you listen to this episode and haven't seen the movie yet. And again, I'm always confused when we get to this point in the episode, but if you haven't seen this movie, I would say watch the 13th warrior first, because it's doing a lot of the same things and doing it a lot better. I think that this one is fine, and if you're just looking for a thing to throw on, that's, like, enjoyable. Cool. I wouldn't buy it. I would rent it. That is my final assessment of this movie.

(01:22:22):
Yeah. And if you can find it for free. Do that.
That's even better because there are scenes that you'll enjoy, and then there's a lot of spots that you'll just scratch your head. But I think we're all kind of, like, in agreement on how this movie could have been stronger and a little bit better. Lauren, you are a guest. Do you have anything else you want to say about it?
Again, actors are amazing. So much potential there. I think we're all in agreement about where the story could have been different and the movie could have looked a lot differently from that. So.

(01:22:51):
Yeah.
Yeah. Good cast?
Oh, yeah.
Cinematography, just bad color correction and not really a story in this one.
It's just story could have been different.
Yeah. I don't mind stripping away stuff from the legend. It's just they didn't have, like, insert new stuff to replace it. They also could have hinted at Arthur having a half sister that I would have appreciated just to have a hint. If you're going to hint at everything else, like, hint there as well. Well, Lauren, thank you for coming on and thank you for bringing this movie. Where can people find you and follow you on the interwebs?

(01:23:18):
You can find me on Instagram. Laurencarter 9273. Definitely enjoyed being on the show. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming.
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. Sam, where can people find you and follow you?
They can find me on our discord when I occasionally remember it. And other than that, they can't find me anywhere because I will be locking myself, building a wall, locking myself on the inside, having someone build the wall on the outside for my attempted humor with that italian bit. And so, no, they will not be able to access me. They will only be able to complain to case at.

(01:23:55):
Well, you can find me on most platforms at case Aiken, except for Instagram, where I'm holding on to my aim screen name from high school for dear life. So you can find me there at quetzalcoatl five because I was pretentious even then. Also, you can find this show and all the other great shows on the certain pov [e-mail]. We've got a ton of great shows. You can also find a link to our discord [e-mail]. It's an open invite. Come hang out. It's a really good vibe there. There are a lot of discord servers that are either too dead or too busy, and I find that we're kind of, like, in a good space of, like, there's usually a couple notifications.

(01:24:31):
There's constant chats going on, but it's not the type of discord server where if you leave for five minutes, you will never figure out who responded to you because you'd have to keep scrolling.
Thank gosh, because I often come in and very late on conversation, but you.
Can actually follow the conversation, which is a really nice part. And there are conversations and I'm really happy with a lot of the feedback that we've been getting. There have been some new faces around there, so. So check that out. On that note, you should also check out our YouTube channel, certain POV Media, where there are now full episodes of this show and Men of Steel up there, as well as all the clips that we've been doing and the Superman analog series. So check out that we've got some crazy high view counts on some of those podcast episodes. Now that I'm scared because like, I know what our numbers are and it's a lot more. So it's impressive. Check that out.

(01:25:20):
It's been fun coming up with ways to do visualizers that make it visually interesting to look at a podcast episode as a video without at the same time having the entire thing be video camera stuff, because we don't do that. So check all that out, then come back here for the next episode. Sam, what have we got coming up next?
Well, next time we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening, but until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

(01:25:48):
Thanks for listening to certain point of View's another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.
Another pass is a certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alizea and case Aiken. The show is edited by Jeff Moonan. Our logo and episode art is by case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

(01:26:17):
Cpov certainpov.com dot.