January 29, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge engages with Michael Kerr to discuss his new book and the concept of cultural leadership. They explore the definition and impact of culture leadership in the workplace, highlighting the emergence of culture officers and the role of culture consulting. The conversation underscores the power of humor in enhancing workplace culture and addresses the challenges of implementing cultural change within companies. They emphasize the importance of embracing diversity and learning from successful departments. The discussion also touches on leadership legacy and the significance of "small moments, big outcomes," with reflections on resilience in leadership. The episode concludes with closing remarks and a teaser for the next episode.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:41):
Hi, Ron.
It's, Roxanne Duroch.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.
Today, I have this is the second time, MichaelKerr.
Yeah.
Peace.
Yes.
Yes.
This is the 2nd time you're on the podcast.
It's an honor.
So I didn't mess up too much No.
No.
And I'm like, okay.
He's doing gesticulation for anybody that can'tsee the video, and I'm like
I'm interpreting.
I'm yes.
(01:01):
I'm interpreting.
Sound.
Is it Michael Kerr?
I should know it's Michael Kerr.
He's trying to mess me up.
Michael is a a dear, I would say, friend andcolleague, and, we're both, members of the,
Canadian Association of Professional Speakers.
Michael has been at at this bid a lot longerthan me.
We're saying 1998 was the first book, butmembership probably longer than that, I would
(01:24):
assume, Mike.
And today, Mike's come on to talk a little bitmore about he's written 9 books, and he has a
recent book, small moments, big outcomes aboutleadership that we wanna chat about.
Beautiful cover.
Anybody can see it.
And so we're gonna talk a lot about that today.
So, Mike, tell me what what made you wannawrite this book.
(01:45):
You've written 8 before.
This is 9th.
What made you want to write this particularbook?
Yeah.
It's a culmination really of years of workleading up to this book, of years of research
going into companies, interviewing leaders,CEOs, presidents of companies all over the
world.
I've spoken for 20 plus years as you say, but,god, I guess close to 26 years.
(02:07):
That's insane.
Wow.
I know.
That's crazy.
About humor in the workplace, I first was inthat space and speaking about eventually
workplace culture.
And my previous books kind of funneled up intothis book.
So this book is kind of my culmination, Ithink, of a lot of research, of a lot of
thinking in this area.
(02:28):
And so the book very much is geared to thisidea that leaders need to think of themselves,
1st and foremost, as a leader and not just amanager, not just a boss, not just a
supervisor, that there is a difference thatgoes beyond semantics between being a leader
and being the manager, being a leader and beingthe boss.
But more than that, Roxanne, being a cultureleader and thinking of themselves in this day
(02:52):
and age, 1st and foremost, as a culture leader.
K.
So define you know, I hear obviously, I eitherthink culture, and I'm gonna assume or leader.
Right?
So tell me what the definition how do youdefine a culture leader?
I define a culture leader as somebody whoobsessively thinks about culture first and
(03:13):
foremost in everything they do.
By culture, first of all, I just how I defineculture is it's your workplace mojo.
It's the feel of the place.
It's the personality of the place.
It's the unique set of rituals, traditions,values, behaviors that make you and different
than your nearest competitor.
It's your number one competitive advantage, buthere's why culture leadership matters.
(03:35):
Great cultures don't just happen.
You can't fake it.
You can't go buy your culture at IKEA.
Even if you did, you wouldn't understand theinstructions.
You'd have parts left over.
So you need to because it is your number onecompetitive advantage, because it impacts every
aspect of your organization, includingemployees' health and wellness and how well you
(03:56):
communicate and work together and collaborate,how creative and innovative you are, how you
provide customer service and outstandingcustomer experience, how happy employees are
because it affects all that.
Being a culture leader is simply about beingintentional in everything you do as a leader in
regards to your culture and recognizing that asa leader, you have a disproportionate impact on
(04:21):
your culture, that everything you do and sayeither adds to your workplace culture in some
way or detracts from your workplace culture.
So being intentional about your culture meanseverything from hiring with your culture in
mind so that you are hiring people who aren'tjust a match for your culture, but people grow
your culture in the direction you want yourculture to grow.
(04:43):
It's about training with culture in mind.
It's about communicating relentlessly what yourcultural norms and values are.
And as a culture leader, it's about gettinginto the habit of always thinking about when
you make a decision as a leader, are youbuilding the culture that you wanna build, and
(05:04):
does this decision reflect the culture that youwant?
So always keeping your culture front and centerin the back of your mind in everything you do
say and in all of your decisions that guideyour business.
I'm gonna assume over your your tenure in doingthis kind of work, you've seen, I gotta say,
(05:24):
iterations or metamorphosis around that wholeconcept.
Right?
So I'm thinking 20, 25 years, we've gone we'veseen such shifts.
And even as, you know, soon as the pandemic,we've already seen that the companies that are
excelling are the ones that really take thisconcept to fruition.
The ones the leaders that made the phone callsor had the one to ones or did the Zooms or did
(05:49):
the Facebook lives are the ones that really gotit.
And when you started way back when, I'm notcalling you old, but way back when, how has
that shifted, that whole concept of culturebased on what you're talking about today, which
makes it makes so much sense.
Like, you'd think that everybody would getthis, but not a lot of people still get it
today.
(06:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sadly, not a lot.
Certainly, way more than when I started.
When I started, I think, yeah, people talkedabout culture, but it was it was very minimal.
I think it was off the radar.
It wasn't talked about or written about allthat much.
We talked about all sorts of other things, andI think often in a very hodgepodge kind of way.
So we talked about all these these the separatetopics.
(06:34):
So culture kinda pulls everything together,right, too.
And, really, it's just been, I would say, inthe last, what are we, 2025 now in the last 10
years
Yes.
15 years that you've really seen a shift in alot of organizations where they're recognizing
and appreciating the importance of culture andputting putting a priority on that.
(06:54):
And you can see that in terms of how they spendtheir money.
You can see this in terms of even a lot ofcompanies hiring chief culture officers.
Mhmm.
Often, they have different names, but a aposition related to that, people to help
champion the culture and to drive initiativesto help educate their employees about the
culture and support their values and bring themto life.
(07:15):
So there has been a huge shift, but but I thinkthere's still a long ways to go.
Absolutely.
I would think that companies are comingforward, and they want this concept.
They would have probably been companies thathave been doing bits and bites of the the work
along the way, or they maybe have gone throughsome kind of crisis in market share or there's
(07:37):
something like that when they're thinking, wow.
We seem to be generally, you know, keeping thetempo with the competitors, but now we've kind
of been left behind, and we're not sure whythat's happening.
So when you get called in, I I know a lot of itcomes from keynoting, but are there other times
where you get calling for consulting or justlike we're trying to kind of figure out how to
(07:58):
keep up with the competitors?
How might people come to you to kind of delveinto this whole concept of culture leadership?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And and you hit on a really good point.
That is often when companies or leaders for thefirst time start to think about their culture,
when a crisis hits.
Right?
Mhmm.
Or when they have a huge change in theirorganization.
And they realize, sometimes much to theirchagrin, that they don't really have the right
(08:22):
culture in place to deal with change, to dealwith innovation and creativity and uncertainty
and all this the stuff that leaders today haveto think about.
I do get called in very often to do coaching orto to give advice and help.
I do longer I do longer full day and multi daytraining workshops as well to help implement
(08:42):
some of these ideas to really help them putthings into practice, to help them shift their
culture.
And very often, companies will contact me whenthey've introduced some new values, actually
mean something and they actually stick and thatpeople take them seriously.
I wish sometimes they would call me before theycame up with their values because sometimes I
(09:05):
would I would have some advice on the valuesthey came up with.
Like, maybe 18 values is a little bit too much.
So that is, though, why a lot of companies andleaders reach out to me that they've they've
got a new strategic plan or they've got newvalues in place.
And so we wanna get our employees excited aboutthis.
We want employees to embrace our values, andand we want you to help us trans excuse me.
(09:28):
Trent I got choked up talking about thisbecause it's so exciting to translate those
values into observable behaviors, and andthat's what great culture leaders have to do.
Right?
We have to make sure we are translating whatthose suckers mean.
Right?
Because here's what I joke about all the time.
Here's what I joke about in my talk.
You know?
Culture is held together by the values.
(09:48):
Right?
But everybody talks about values like this.
Right?
Like, the these
So I'm trying for people that won't see thevideo, I'm looking at my what is that?
It's a flower hat.
He's got
a pink flower hat.
Everybody asks if if you're not watching thisthe video.
I just
kind of swing with him as he's got a flowerhead on his head.
Yes.
Yes.
This is, you know, this playfulness, Michael
(10:09):
Yep.
Which is what I love about what you since I'vemet Michael and the kind of work that he does.
You bring such a playfulness to a culture,
as as
you kind of come from the external kind ofworld.
Do you find that sometimes you go in and somecultures are like the CEOs a little bit they're
like, they're so serious.
(10:31):
Right?
And they want their values, and they they, youknow, they want the tactical outcomes, and they
want investor buy in or, you know, they havethose quarterly meetings with the ROIs and all
that stuff that they don't get that sometimesthey have to shift a bit.
Oh, for sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And and you're right.
Everything that I talk about and everything inthis book, has humor throughout the book.
(10:51):
I'm a huge proponent, and that is one of mymain messages and themes I bring to audiences
is the importance of humor, of having fun.
That humor is both a driver of morecollaborative, inspiring, productive, humane
workplace cultures, but also humor is the endproduct of working in a positive, humane,
collaborative culture where people feel goodabout themselves, where it's easy to bring in a
(11:13):
good attitude to work and have a little bit offun because you feel appreciated and valued and
respected.
And so it's easy to bring that sense of humoralong.
But for sure, I meet leaders like that, andhere's one of my messages when it comes to
humor.
Humor is not about telling jokes.
It's not about being
funny.
Not?
Noun.
Sometimes well, sometimes it can be, but it'snot about being the stand up comedy of the
(11:36):
other comedian of the office or being theoffice clown.
And it's not always even about being funny.
It's about being more human, more authentic,more real, being more balanced.
It's about finding the funny in your work livesthat's out there waiting waiting to be found,
the especially the things that you can'tcontrol, right, which some days is probably a
147%.
(11:57):
And it's especially, back to your point aboutthe stern CEOs, It's about laughing at yourself
more.
Is it not a truism after all, Roxanne, that themore seriously a person takes themselves, the
less seriously we tend to take that person,which is ironic because people take themselves
so bloody seriously in the hopes that everyonewill take me seriously.
And the reality is, I'm sorry, no one takes youseriously because you are taking yourself so
(12:24):
seriously.
So it's about being able to show your humanside to laugh at yourself, which as a leader
makes you more approachable.
It makes you connect with your employeesbetter.
It creates psychological safety in yourenvironment so people do ask those challenging
questions and suggest outrageous ideas andpoint out issues that need pointing out because
they feel safe and comfortable to do so.
(12:46):
We know from studies that leaders who embrace apositive sense of humor now that's important.
Right?
Not a sarcastic, cynical, biting, cutting senseof humor, but a positive sense of humor.
Leaders who think about how their use of humorwill make the people around them feel better,
that we trust those leaders more because theyseem more real, more genuine.
(13:06):
We know it's one of the most powerful stressbusters available to us.
It creates more resilient teams.
We know from studies that workplaces, the teamsthat embrace a lot of fun tend to have lower
employee turnover rates, lower absenteeismrates.
Everything moves in the right direction.
So one of my messages too is, you know, even ifadding more humor into your workplace culture
(13:28):
or into your leadership style, even if itdoesn't generate all these benefits that I
suggest it will, what would you rather have?
The same level of success at work in yourbusiness and less fun or at least the same
level of success and at least enjoy the journeya little bit more.
Right?
It's it's
Right.
Because you have to spend so much time there.
Right?
So you might as well you might as well havefun.
(13:50):
And I like, I mean, I ran clinics, addictionsclinics, and stuff like that.
And at end of the day, you're dealing withpeople's lives, for instance, right, over the
years.
And then you realize, like, at the end of theday, we would we'd have these little jokes, and
then you'd realize you're not making fun ofpeople.
You're just trying to alleviate the stress thatyou'd be dealing with when, say, somebody has
kind of dealt with a bad situation with afamily member or the public or the media or
(14:14):
something like that.
And then we would talk about it and, you know,somebody would bring something up.
We'd have a good little chuckle, and then thestress level, to your point, goes down, and
then people can kinda go off and go, I can dothis again.
Right?
And and that's so important.
And you make such a good point, Roxanne.
It's it's not about taking your clients, yourpatients, your customers less seriously or
(14:36):
lightly.
It's about taking yourself lightly in order tobe more professional in your job.
I've spoken a lot to funeral homes, to funeralpeople, to our doctors and nurses and people in
these high stress jobs, and they tell me timeand time again about how they need to have a
healthy sense of humor in order to maintaintheir professionalism, in order to cope with
(14:58):
the job, with the demands of the job.
So as long as you're doing it in a safe way,respectfully behind the scenes, and sometimes
it is very black humor.
It can be galloped humor.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
But that's okay
if it helps you distance yourself from thatstress and it helps you maintain your sanity
and your resilience so you can be professional,then, of course, it's something we need to
(15:19):
learn to embrace.
Now, Mike, I'm curious.
Right?
Like, when have you come across companies thatthey think they're ready?
They're like, Mike Kerr, we heard you speak,and we wanna, you know, embrace this whole
concept in a workplace, and you have theconsultation, and you go, I don't know.
You know, if we can kind of work with you.
(15:40):
Have you come across scenarios like that overkind of your time working with companies where
you kinda give them some homework and tellthem, let's talk again at a later point?
I I'm trying to think of ones where I'veactually said, no.
I don't think this is a fit.
I I know there are some examples where Ithought, okay.
This is not a long term relationship I wannapursue
(16:02):
Right.
Right.
Because they're not serious about it.
They're not gonna take it seriously.
They're not ready to shift their culture inthis way.
There's just too much resistance, still toomuch Yeah.
Skepticism, I think.
Yeah.
So there there certainly are those examples.
I think most, though, I would say the majorityare open to shifting the way they do things.
And and the number one way I find that they getexcited, that they get inspired to shift things
(16:26):
is through the examples that I share.
So I hear this time and time again, especiallyfrom senior leaders where because I share so
much research and I share examples frombusinesses all over to show that this stuff
works.
So even when you do some of these silly crazythings, here's the end result of this silly
craziness, though.
Mhmm.
So this works, and that kinda sets off a lot oflight bulbs, I think.
(16:49):
When they see it in action, they get the ideathat it's relevant that this this is something
that they maybe need to pay more attention to.
Absolutely.
Right.
And I think it's kinda like the congruencebetween all the levels of the organization as
well.
I've been assume, like, most times, like, withmyself, you're kind of probably maybe at upper
leadership, but then kind of looking at howfrom your senior leadership goes down to middle
(17:14):
management, to your frontline leaders ormanagers, to the public.
Right?
So it's kinda you have to have that cascadingelements.
And I've worked with some companies, and thesenior leadership team has a concept that they
wanna deliver, but they're not acting incongruence with what they want the culture to
be like.
And then they're wanting the, you know,frontline, say, employees to act a certain way,
(17:37):
but there's that disconnect.
And working with them to say, well, you know,if you're kind of mentally, you know, not
mentally resilient and you're reactive, butyou're saying to employees that are dealing
with customers that you can't kind of lose yourcool, they need to see it demonstrated.
So that whole kind of thread through becomesreally important.
I'm gonna assume that when you're doing workaround your cultural leadership, that's what
(18:00):
you're looking for as well.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
When I was I'm putting on my flower hat againwhen when I was talking about this
not giggling because he's got a pink little
Pink flower hat on.
Yes.
Pink flower hat.
Yeah.
My point in this was that too many companiesjust treat their values like window dressing.
Right?
Like this superficial they put up their valueson a nice poster with the puppies and rainbows,
(18:21):
and they sing we are the world once a year withtheir team.
And then, you know, that's it.
There's our values.
What what great culture leaders do veryintentionally is they translate what those
suckers actually mean in terms of specificbehaviors, attitudes.
They turn it into fun top ten list videosstarring their own employees.
Example after example, stories.
(18:42):
They do a values blitz.
They use all these creative ways to make surepeople understand what their values are.
But then and you were just talking about this.
The second thing that's absolutely critical is,of course, modeling our values out loud, making
sure you're seen to be living your values outloud.
And I've talked to a lot of very inspiringleaders where I've gone in for interviews, and
(19:03):
very often, the CEO of a company will be out inthe parking lot picking up garbage or helping a
customer carry bags out to their car orwhatever it may be, and they're doing that
purposefully to be shown to be seen, sorry,living their values out loud and to be sending
the message, no job is beneath anyone here, andthis is what I expect of all of our employees.
(19:28):
Now the other the other thing I do see,Roxanne, is to that point of it cascading down
throughout the organization.
And this I find fascinating too is I've goneinto big companies very often and worked with
one department where the department isobviously miles ahead with their culture.
They've got a fun, humor filled culture.
They're collaborative.
(19:49):
They're open minded, curious, creative, all thethings you want in a great culture.
And then I speak to another department, samecompany, but a little different.
A little soul sucking, fun sucking culture inthis department over here.
And I'm sitting there thinking, holy smokes.
You work for the same company?
And it's like night and day.
(20:10):
And so I think that speaks volumes to theimportance of the senior leader in those
departments because it it probably, in thosecases, is cascading down from those different
leaders.
And one has done an exceptional job at buildinga great positive culture and the other one, not
so much.
Yeah.
And and what you can learn, the crosspollination, right, potentially without calling
(20:32):
out someone to say somebody could be, you know,transporting this over.
Maybe the leader shifts things a bitdifferently or maybe they communicate
differently or maybe they just go do little gettogethers in a different way
Yeah.
Where they structure their their meetingsdifferently, where they check-in, or they maybe
have a funny story, or they they talk about asuccess.
There's so many like, to your point, you canhave 2 entities within the same culture, one
(20:56):
getting a positive and one getting a negative.
But with even within the culture, I'm surethere's pockets that they can learn from each
other.
I don't know what cross I was gonna say crosscontaminators.
That's the wrong word.
Pollinators.
Cross relation is is
a natural term I think.
So that they could kind of learn from eachother and not take it personally.
I'm not leading well.
But in fact that, oh, this actually worksbetter or maybe we can use this or the case
(21:19):
study kind of sharing that I'm sure that you dowith a lot of your trainings.
Yeah.
Well, benchmarking within your own organizationand learnings from your stars, whether it's
employees or teams or entire departments,looking at at the different cultures, looking
at the different numbers even and going, hey.
How come this department has such a lowemployer turnover rate?
(21:39):
Mhmm.
And over here, not so much.
What's going on over here that we could maybelearn from and apply?
So, you know, you're right on making sure thatpeople aren't working in silos where they
aren't sharing information and hoggingresources and hogging ideas, making sure you
have those open forums from differentdepartments where people connect.
I love this idea actually, Roxanne, that someof my clients do where they do now this is at
(22:01):
an individual level, but but they rave aboutthe impact.
They do random coffee dates where everybody'sname goes into a random name generator
throughout the entire company, and then theymeet for a coffee.
So you meet with people, and some of them do itin groups of 4.
You go and you have coffee with people thatsometimes you've never met even if it's a big
company or at the very least people that youdon't see on a regular basis or work with on a
(22:25):
regular basis.
And it just helps build this greater sense ofcommunity and the cross fertilization that
happens with ideas when people get talkingabout their challenges and work and then people
are, oh, you guys are doing that.
That's so cool.
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell my boss about that.
Or you could play marketing with accounting orsomething together.
Right?
We're totally out.
Like, for us with familiarity.
(22:46):
We're gonna go you know, for an accounting,we're gonna go sit with the person that's
generally dealing with finance.
Or if we're in marketing, we're gonna go andtalk with maybe marketing and r and d.
But to put 4 random people together, what whatI would say a gift.
Right?
Because then you're gonna be able to say, wow.
I hadn't thought about that, like, from thatperspective and just to grow an appreciation
(23:07):
for what everybody's responsibilities are atthe end of the day to the business unit or just
the overall culture.
Yeah.
And and that's how we know creativity andinnovation thrives, right, from getting
different perspectives.
I love the old saying that if you have 2executives or 2 employees that think alike, one
of them is redundant.
So if we can get more different perspectivesaround the table, that's how you get new ideas.
(23:33):
Everybody sees different things from theirvantage point depending on what their role is
in the company.
But, also, everybody has different backgrounds,different educational backgrounds, different
totally different backgrounds.
So they we all see things in a different way.
So tapping into those different perspectivesand ideas.
In fact, Steve Jobs, when he redesigned PixarStudios, when he took over Pixar, that was one
(23:54):
of his major goals was in redesigning theoffice space, the the building, was to make
sure there was more synchronicity in how no.
Not that's not the word.
It's not serendipity.
That's the word.
I knew it started with s.
There was more serendipity in terms of peoplejust running into each other randomly so that
(24:14):
this cross fertilization of ideas would happen.
Well, this is amazing.
Now in reference to the book, if you're whatshould people expect?
Where can they go to pick up a copy?
And do you have any last words for any leadersout there or people just if you're on their
frontline and they want they're liking theconcepts that we've you've kind of introduced
(24:37):
in the book that you might want to have themsome thought or something to ponder about the
con the content we talked about today.
Yeah.
For sure.
Here's the last thing I would just remindpeople of, and and you mentioned it early on,
Roxanne, that, you know, work consumes a bigchunk of our time.
It's the single biggest use of your energy,your talents during the short thing called
(24:58):
life.
And we have and I talk about this in the book.
The re one of the reasons I call it smallmoments, big outcomes is because, you know,
life is made up of small moments.
That's all we've got.
In fact, on average, in Canada, we are givenabout 4000 weeks in this thing called life,
which doesn't sound a lot when you put it intoweeks.
Right?
Because weeks go by really fast, and most of uslistening or watching this have probably used
(25:22):
up more than half of those weeks.
Right?
So work has this enormous impact in this shortjourney called life.
It affects our mental and physical health, ourhappiness, our personal lives, our
socialization, where we live very often.
It has huge impacts on our lives, and you as aleader have a disproportionate impact on all of
(25:43):
those things in terms of your employees.
You impact your employees' families' lives.
You impact impact your employees in substantialways that perhaps you're not even aware of.
So I challenge you to think about what do youwant your legacy to be as a leader?
What do you wanna build day in and day out?
(26:04):
And it is through the small moments.
That's the second reason I called it smallmoments.
It is through those small moments that make orbreak your leadership.
It is the small simple things that you do thatyour employees notice, and it is the small
things, I guarantee you, that will irritate theheck out of them and annoy them.
So I challenge you to think about your legacy.
(26:25):
The book is available on Amazon.
You can get a Kindle version, the e version, orthe hard copy version through Amazon.
It is packed with relevant ideas.
It goes into different traits of leadership.
It talks about the importance of communicationin the workplace, how to run your meetings, the
importance of employee recognition andappreciation, the importance, of course, of
having fun at work, how to build a servicefirst culture, how to build a more resilient
(26:50):
culture.
It is packed with ideas, packed with a load offun.
So I I hope that if you pick up a copy of thebook, it will help you on your leadership
journey and help you leave behind a morepositive, substantial, lasting legacy.
Awesome.
Well, Mike, it's always a pleasure.
Mike always makes me evil every time I see him.
(27:13):
And, again, I love the hat.
For those that, you know, aren't seeing thehat, it was very pretty and pink.
And and I'm trying to take him seriously yetagain.
So, you know, for me, what am I taking away?
I talk a lot about, you know, leaders knowingtheir mental resilience, and Mike talks about
that much more.
(27:33):
Leader knowing thyself.
Who are you?
What is that what is that imprint?
When you're no longer in that space, what isthe legacy?
What will they say about the Michael Kors ofthe world when he is no longer there?
For you as a leader, think, what is it that youwant people to embody or remember with your
leadership?
And I often say as leaders, making the place abetter before you leave the environment, making
(27:56):
that environment that much better so peopleremember something special about you.
So for everyone, thanks again for tuning in.
If you wanted to know how you're connected inrelationships, just go to
roxieanddurhamodge.complarge@quiz.
Well, you'll do a really quick quiz, and we'lltell you kind of either at home or at work
where you are in reference to relationships andsome next steps so that how to make things
(28:18):
better.
So, again, Michael, thanks so much foreverybody with everybody hanging out with us.
Thanks so much for hanging out with us, andwe'll chat with you again next week.
Okay, Mike.
Thank
you, Roxanne.
Thank
you.
Take care.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
(28:41):
To work with Roxanne, visitroxandurhage.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:41):
Hi, Ron.
It's, Roxanne Duroch.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.
Today, I have this is the second time, MichaelKerr.
Yeah.
Peace.
Yes.
Yes.
This is the 2nd time you're on the podcast.
It's an honor.
So I didn't mess up too much No.
No.
And I'm like, okay.
He's doing gesticulation for anybody that can'tsee the video, and I'm like
I'm interpreting.
I'm yes.
(01:01):
I'm interpreting.
Sound.
Is it Michael Kerr?
I should know it's Michael Kerr.
He's trying to mess me up.
Michael is a a dear, I would say, friend andcolleague, and, we're both, members of the,
Canadian Association of Professional Speakers.
Michael has been at at this bid a lot longerthan me.
We're saying 1998 was the first book, butmembership probably longer than that, I would
(01:24):
assume, Mike.
And today, Mike's come on to talk a little bitmore about he's written 9 books, and he has a
recent book, small moments, big outcomes aboutleadership that we wanna chat about.
Beautiful cover.
Anybody can see it.
And so we're gonna talk a lot about that today.
So, Mike, tell me what what made you wannawrite this book.
(01:45):
You've written 8 before.
This is 9th.
What made you want to write this particularbook?
Yeah.
It's a culmination really of years of workleading up to this book, of years of research
going into companies, interviewing leaders,CEOs, presidents of companies all over the
world.
I've spoken for 20 plus years as you say, but,god, I guess close to 26 years.
(02:07):
That's insane.
Wow.
I know.
That's crazy.
About humor in the workplace, I first was inthat space and speaking about eventually
workplace culture.
And my previous books kind of funneled up intothis book.
So this book is kind of my culmination, Ithink, of a lot of research, of a lot of
thinking in this area.
(02:28):
And so the book very much is geared to thisidea that leaders need to think of themselves,
1st and foremost, as a leader and not just amanager, not just a boss, not just a
supervisor, that there is a difference thatgoes beyond semantics between being a leader
and being the manager, being a leader and beingthe boss.
But more than that, Roxanne, being a cultureleader and thinking of themselves in this day
(02:52):
and age, 1st and foremost, as a culture leader.
K.
So define you know, I hear obviously, I eitherthink culture, and I'm gonna assume or leader.
Right?
So tell me what the definition how do youdefine a culture leader?
I define a culture leader as somebody whoobsessively thinks about culture first and
(03:13):
foremost in everything they do.
By culture, first of all, I just how I defineculture is it's your workplace mojo.
It's the feel of the place.
It's the personality of the place.
It's the unique set of rituals, traditions,values, behaviors that make you and different
than your nearest competitor.
It's your number one competitive advantage, buthere's why culture leadership matters.
(03:35):
Great cultures don't just happen.
You can't fake it.
You can't go buy your culture at IKEA.
Even if you did, you wouldn't understand theinstructions.
You'd have parts left over.
So you need to because it is your number onecompetitive advantage, because it impacts every
aspect of your organization, includingemployees' health and wellness and how well you
(03:56):
communicate and work together and collaborate,how creative and innovative you are, how you
provide customer service and outstandingcustomer experience, how happy employees are
because it affects all that.
Being a culture leader is simply about beingintentional in everything you do as a leader in
regards to your culture and recognizing that asa leader, you have a disproportionate impact on
(04:21):
your culture, that everything you do and sayeither adds to your workplace culture in some
way or detracts from your workplace culture.
So being intentional about your culture meanseverything from hiring with your culture in
mind so that you are hiring people who aren'tjust a match for your culture, but people grow
your culture in the direction you want yourculture to grow.
(04:43):
It's about training with culture in mind.
It's about communicating relentlessly what yourcultural norms and values are.
And as a culture leader, it's about gettinginto the habit of always thinking about when
you make a decision as a leader, are youbuilding the culture that you wanna build, and
(05:04):
does this decision reflect the culture that youwant?
So always keeping your culture front and centerin the back of your mind in everything you do
say and in all of your decisions that guideyour business.
I'm gonna assume over your your tenure in doingthis kind of work, you've seen, I gotta say,
(05:24):
iterations or metamorphosis around that wholeconcept.
Right?
So I'm thinking 20, 25 years, we've gone we'veseen such shifts.
And even as, you know, soon as the pandemic,we've already seen that the companies that are
excelling are the ones that really take thisconcept to fruition.
The ones the leaders that made the phone callsor had the one to ones or did the Zooms or did
(05:49):
the Facebook lives are the ones that really gotit.
And when you started way back when, I'm notcalling you old, but way back when, how has
that shifted, that whole concept of culturebased on what you're talking about today, which
makes it makes so much sense.
Like, you'd think that everybody would getthis, but not a lot of people still get it
today.
(06:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sadly, not a lot.
Certainly, way more than when I started.
When I started, I think, yeah, people talkedabout culture, but it was it was very minimal.
I think it was off the radar.
It wasn't talked about or written about allthat much.
We talked about all sorts of other things, andI think often in a very hodgepodge kind of way.
So we talked about all these these the separatetopics.
(06:34):
So culture kinda pulls everything together,right, too.
And, really, it's just been, I would say, inthe last, what are we, 2025 now in the last 10
years
Yes.
15 years that you've really seen a shift in alot of organizations where they're recognizing
and appreciating the importance of culture andputting putting a priority on that.
(06:54):
And you can see that in terms of how they spendtheir money.
You can see this in terms of even a lot ofcompanies hiring chief culture officers.
Mhmm.
Often, they have different names, but a aposition related to that, people to help
champion the culture and to drive initiativesto help educate their employees about the
culture and support their values and bring themto life.
(07:15):
So there has been a huge shift, but but I thinkthere's still a long ways to go.
Absolutely.
I would think that companies are comingforward, and they want this concept.
They would have probably been companies thathave been doing bits and bites of the the work
along the way, or they maybe have gone throughsome kind of crisis in market share or there's
(07:37):
something like that when they're thinking, wow.
We seem to be generally, you know, keeping thetempo with the competitors, but now we've kind
of been left behind, and we're not sure whythat's happening.
So when you get called in, I I know a lot of itcomes from keynoting, but are there other times
where you get calling for consulting or justlike we're trying to kind of figure out how to
(07:58):
keep up with the competitors?
How might people come to you to kind of delveinto this whole concept of culture leadership?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And and you hit on a really good point.
That is often when companies or leaders for thefirst time start to think about their culture,
when a crisis hits.
Right?
Mhmm.
Or when they have a huge change in theirorganization.
And they realize, sometimes much to theirchagrin, that they don't really have the right
(08:22):
culture in place to deal with change, to dealwith innovation and creativity and uncertainty
and all this the stuff that leaders today haveto think about.
I do get called in very often to do coaching orto to give advice and help.
I do longer I do longer full day and multi daytraining workshops as well to help implement
(08:42):
some of these ideas to really help them putthings into practice, to help them shift their
culture.
And very often, companies will contact me whenthey've introduced some new values, actually
mean something and they actually stick and thatpeople take them seriously.
I wish sometimes they would call me before theycame up with their values because sometimes I
(09:05):
would I would have some advice on the valuesthey came up with.
Like, maybe 18 values is a little bit too much.
So that is, though, why a lot of companies andleaders reach out to me that they've they've
got a new strategic plan or they've got newvalues in place.
And so we wanna get our employees excited aboutthis.
We want employees to embrace our values, andand we want you to help us trans excuse me.
(09:28):
Trent I got choked up talking about thisbecause it's so exciting to translate those
values into observable behaviors, and andthat's what great culture leaders have to do.
Right?
We have to make sure we are translating whatthose suckers mean.
Right?
Because here's what I joke about all the time.
Here's what I joke about in my talk.
You know?
Culture is held together by the values.
(09:48):
Right?
But everybody talks about values like this.
Right?
Like, the these
So I'm trying for people that won't see thevideo, I'm looking at my what is that?
It's a flower hat.
He's got
a pink flower hat.
Everybody asks if if you're not watching thisthe video.
I just
kind of swing with him as he's got a flowerhead on his head.
Yes.
Yes.
This is, you know, this playfulness, Michael
(10:09):
Yep.
Which is what I love about what you since I'vemet Michael and the kind of work that he does.
You bring such a playfulness to a culture,
as as
you kind of come from the external kind ofworld.
Do you find that sometimes you go in and somecultures are like the CEOs a little bit they're
like, they're so serious.
(10:31):
Right?
And they want their values, and they they, youknow, they want the tactical outcomes, and they
want investor buy in or, you know, they havethose quarterly meetings with the ROIs and all
that stuff that they don't get that sometimesthey have to shift a bit.
Oh, for sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And and you're right.
Everything that I talk about and everything inthis book, has humor throughout the book.
(10:51):
I'm a huge proponent, and that is one of mymain messages and themes I bring to audiences
is the importance of humor, of having fun.
That humor is both a driver of morecollaborative, inspiring, productive, humane
workplace cultures, but also humor is the endproduct of working in a positive, humane,
collaborative culture where people feel goodabout themselves, where it's easy to bring in a
(11:13):
good attitude to work and have a little bit offun because you feel appreciated and valued and
respected.
And so it's easy to bring that sense of humoralong.
But for sure, I meet leaders like that, andhere's one of my messages when it comes to
humor.
Humor is not about telling jokes.
It's not about being
funny.
Not?
Noun.
Sometimes well, sometimes it can be, but it'snot about being the stand up comedy of the
(11:36):
other comedian of the office or being theoffice clown.
And it's not always even about being funny.
It's about being more human, more authentic,more real, being more balanced.
It's about finding the funny in your work livesthat's out there waiting waiting to be found,
the especially the things that you can'tcontrol, right, which some days is probably a
147%.
(11:57):
And it's especially, back to your point aboutthe stern CEOs, It's about laughing at yourself
more.
Is it not a truism after all, Roxanne, that themore seriously a person takes themselves, the
less seriously we tend to take that person,which is ironic because people take themselves
so bloody seriously in the hopes that everyonewill take me seriously.
And the reality is, I'm sorry, no one takes youseriously because you are taking yourself so
(12:24):
seriously.
So it's about being able to show your humanside to laugh at yourself, which as a leader
makes you more approachable.
It makes you connect with your employeesbetter.
It creates psychological safety in yourenvironment so people do ask those challenging
questions and suggest outrageous ideas andpoint out issues that need pointing out because
they feel safe and comfortable to do so.
(12:46):
We know from studies that leaders who embrace apositive sense of humor now that's important.
Right?
Not a sarcastic, cynical, biting, cutting senseof humor, but a positive sense of humor.
Leaders who think about how their use of humorwill make the people around them feel better,
that we trust those leaders more because theyseem more real, more genuine.
(13:06):
We know it's one of the most powerful stressbusters available to us.
It creates more resilient teams.
We know from studies that workplaces, the teamsthat embrace a lot of fun tend to have lower
employee turnover rates, lower absenteeismrates.
Everything moves in the right direction.
So one of my messages too is, you know, even ifadding more humor into your workplace culture
(13:28):
or into your leadership style, even if itdoesn't generate all these benefits that I
suggest it will, what would you rather have?
The same level of success at work in yourbusiness and less fun or at least the same
level of success and at least enjoy the journeya little bit more.
Right?
It's it's
Right.
Because you have to spend so much time there.
Right?
So you might as well you might as well havefun.
(13:50):
And I like, I mean, I ran clinics, addictionsclinics, and stuff like that.
And at end of the day, you're dealing withpeople's lives, for instance, right, over the
years.
And then you realize, like, at the end of theday, we would we'd have these little jokes, and
then you'd realize you're not making fun ofpeople.
You're just trying to alleviate the stress thatyou'd be dealing with when, say, somebody has
kind of dealt with a bad situation with afamily member or the public or the media or
(14:14):
something like that.
And then we would talk about it and, you know,somebody would bring something up.
We'd have a good little chuckle, and then thestress level, to your point, goes down, and
then people can kinda go off and go, I can dothis again.
Right?
And and that's so important.
And you make such a good point, Roxanne.
It's it's not about taking your clients, yourpatients, your customers less seriously or
(14:36):
lightly.
It's about taking yourself lightly in order tobe more professional in your job.
I've spoken a lot to funeral homes, to funeralpeople, to our doctors and nurses and people in
these high stress jobs, and they tell me timeand time again about how they need to have a
healthy sense of humor in order to maintaintheir professionalism, in order to cope with
(14:58):
the job, with the demands of the job.
So as long as you're doing it in a safe way,respectfully behind the scenes, and sometimes
it is very black humor.
It can be galloped humor.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
But that's okay
if it helps you distance yourself from thatstress and it helps you maintain your sanity
and your resilience so you can be professional,then, of course, it's something we need to
(15:19):
learn to embrace.
Now, Mike, I'm curious.
Right?
Like, when have you come across companies thatthey think they're ready?
They're like, Mike Kerr, we heard you speak,and we wanna, you know, embrace this whole
concept in a workplace, and you have theconsultation, and you go, I don't know.
You know, if we can kind of work with you.
(15:40):
Have you come across scenarios like that overkind of your time working with companies where
you kinda give them some homework and tellthem, let's talk again at a later point?
I I'm trying to think of ones where I'veactually said, no.
I don't think this is a fit.
I I know there are some examples where Ithought, okay.
This is not a long term relationship I wannapursue
(16:02):
Right.
Right.
Because they're not serious about it.
They're not gonna take it seriously.
They're not ready to shift their culture inthis way.
There's just too much resistance, still toomuch Yeah.
Skepticism, I think.
Yeah.
So there there certainly are those examples.
I think most, though, I would say the majorityare open to shifting the way they do things.
And and the number one way I find that they getexcited, that they get inspired to shift things
(16:26):
is through the examples that I share.
So I hear this time and time again, especiallyfrom senior leaders where because I share so
much research and I share examples frombusinesses all over to show that this stuff
works.
So even when you do some of these silly crazythings, here's the end result of this silly
craziness, though.
Mhmm.
So this works, and that kinda sets off a lot oflight bulbs, I think.
(16:49):
When they see it in action, they get the ideathat it's relevant that this this is something
that they maybe need to pay more attention to.
Absolutely.
Right.
And I think it's kinda like the congruencebetween all the levels of the organization as
well.
I've been assume, like, most times, like, withmyself, you're kind of probably maybe at upper
leadership, but then kind of looking at howfrom your senior leadership goes down to middle
(17:14):
management, to your frontline leaders ormanagers, to the public.
Right?
So it's kinda you have to have that cascadingelements.
And I've worked with some companies, and thesenior leadership team has a concept that they
wanna deliver, but they're not acting incongruence with what they want the culture to
be like.
And then they're wanting the, you know,frontline, say, employees to act a certain way,
(17:37):
but there's that disconnect.
And working with them to say, well, you know,if you're kind of mentally, you know, not
mentally resilient and you're reactive, butyou're saying to employees that are dealing
with customers that you can't kind of lose yourcool, they need to see it demonstrated.
So that whole kind of thread through becomesreally important.
I'm gonna assume that when you're doing workaround your cultural leadership, that's what
(18:00):
you're looking for as well.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
When I was I'm putting on my flower hat againwhen when I was talking about this
not giggling because he's got a pink little
Pink flower hat on.
Yes.
Pink flower hat.
Yeah.
My point in this was that too many companiesjust treat their values like window dressing.
Right?
Like this superficial they put up their valueson a nice poster with the puppies and rainbows,
(18:21):
and they sing we are the world once a year withtheir team.
And then, you know, that's it.
There's our values.
What what great culture leaders do veryintentionally is they translate what those
suckers actually mean in terms of specificbehaviors, attitudes.
They turn it into fun top ten list videosstarring their own employees.
Example after example, stories.
(18:42):
They do a values blitz.
They use all these creative ways to make surepeople understand what their values are.
But then and you were just talking about this.
The second thing that's absolutely critical is,of course, modeling our values out loud, making
sure you're seen to be living your values outloud.
And I've talked to a lot of very inspiringleaders where I've gone in for interviews, and
(19:03):
very often, the CEO of a company will be out inthe parking lot picking up garbage or helping a
customer carry bags out to their car orwhatever it may be, and they're doing that
purposefully to be shown to be seen, sorry,living their values out loud and to be sending
the message, no job is beneath anyone here, andthis is what I expect of all of our employees.
(19:28):
Now the other the other thing I do see,Roxanne, is to that point of it cascading down
throughout the organization.
And this I find fascinating too is I've goneinto big companies very often and worked with
one department where the department isobviously miles ahead with their culture.
They've got a fun, humor filled culture.
They're collaborative.
(19:49):
They're open minded, curious, creative, all thethings you want in a great culture.
And then I speak to another department, samecompany, but a little different.
A little soul sucking, fun sucking culture inthis department over here.
And I'm sitting there thinking, holy smokes.
You work for the same company?
And it's like night and day.
(20:10):
And so I think that speaks volumes to theimportance of the senior leader in those
departments because it it probably, in thosecases, is cascading down from those different
leaders.
And one has done an exceptional job at buildinga great positive culture and the other one, not
so much.
Yeah.
And and what you can learn, the crosspollination, right, potentially without calling
(20:32):
out someone to say somebody could be, you know,transporting this over.
Maybe the leader shifts things a bitdifferently or maybe they communicate
differently or maybe they just go do little gettogethers in a different way
Yeah.
Where they structure their their meetingsdifferently, where they check-in, or they maybe
have a funny story, or they they talk about asuccess.
There's so many like, to your point, you canhave 2 entities within the same culture, one
(20:56):
getting a positive and one getting a negative.
But with even within the culture, I'm surethere's pockets that they can learn from each
other.
I don't know what cross I was gonna say crosscontaminators.
That's the wrong word.
Pollinators.
Cross relation is is
a natural term I think.
So that they could kind of learn from eachother and not take it personally.
I'm not leading well.
But in fact that, oh, this actually worksbetter or maybe we can use this or the case
(21:19):
study kind of sharing that I'm sure that you dowith a lot of your trainings.
Yeah.
Well, benchmarking within your own organizationand learnings from your stars, whether it's
employees or teams or entire departments,looking at at the different cultures, looking
at the different numbers even and going, hey.
How come this department has such a lowemployer turnover rate?
(21:39):
Mhmm.
And over here, not so much.
What's going on over here that we could maybelearn from and apply?
So, you know, you're right on making sure thatpeople aren't working in silos where they
aren't sharing information and hoggingresources and hogging ideas, making sure you
have those open forums from differentdepartments where people connect.
I love this idea actually, Roxanne, that someof my clients do where they do now this is at
(22:01):
an individual level, but but they rave aboutthe impact.
They do random coffee dates where everybody'sname goes into a random name generator
throughout the entire company, and then theymeet for a coffee.
So you meet with people, and some of them do itin groups of 4.
You go and you have coffee with people thatsometimes you've never met even if it's a big
company or at the very least people that youdon't see on a regular basis or work with on a
(22:25):
regular basis.
And it just helps build this greater sense ofcommunity and the cross fertilization that
happens with ideas when people get talkingabout their challenges and work and then people
are, oh, you guys are doing that.
That's so cool.
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell my boss about that.
Or you could play marketing with accounting orsomething together.
Right?
We're totally out.
Like, for us with familiarity.
(22:46):
We're gonna go you know, for an accounting,we're gonna go sit with the person that's
generally dealing with finance.
Or if we're in marketing, we're gonna go andtalk with maybe marketing and r and d.
But to put 4 random people together, what whatI would say a gift.
Right?
Because then you're gonna be able to say, wow.
I hadn't thought about that, like, from thatperspective and just to grow an appreciation
(23:07):
for what everybody's responsibilities are atthe end of the day to the business unit or just
the overall culture.
Yeah.
And and that's how we know creativity andinnovation thrives, right, from getting
different perspectives.
I love the old saying that if you have 2executives or 2 employees that think alike, one
of them is redundant.
So if we can get more different perspectivesaround the table, that's how you get new ideas.
(23:33):
Everybody sees different things from theirvantage point depending on what their role is
in the company.
But, also, everybody has different backgrounds,different educational backgrounds, different
totally different backgrounds.
So they we all see things in a different way.
So tapping into those different perspectivesand ideas.
In fact, Steve Jobs, when he redesigned PixarStudios, when he took over Pixar, that was one
(23:54):
of his major goals was in redesigning theoffice space, the the building, was to make
sure there was more synchronicity in how no.
Not that's not the word.
It's not serendipity.
That's the word.
I knew it started with s.
There was more serendipity in terms of peoplejust running into each other randomly so that
(24:14):
this cross fertilization of ideas would happen.
Well, this is amazing.
Now in reference to the book, if you're whatshould people expect?
Where can they go to pick up a copy?
And do you have any last words for any leadersout there or people just if you're on their
frontline and they want they're liking theconcepts that we've you've kind of introduced
(24:37):
in the book that you might want to have themsome thought or something to ponder about the
con the content we talked about today.
Yeah.
For sure.
Here's the last thing I would just remindpeople of, and and you mentioned it early on,
Roxanne, that, you know, work consumes a bigchunk of our time.
It's the single biggest use of your energy,your talents during the short thing called
(24:58):
life.
And we have and I talk about this in the book.
The re one of the reasons I call it smallmoments, big outcomes is because, you know,
life is made up of small moments.
That's all we've got.
In fact, on average, in Canada, we are givenabout 4000 weeks in this thing called life,
which doesn't sound a lot when you put it intoweeks.
Right?
Because weeks go by really fast, and most of uslistening or watching this have probably used
(25:22):
up more than half of those weeks.
Right?
So work has this enormous impact in this shortjourney called life.
It affects our mental and physical health, ourhappiness, our personal lives, our
socialization, where we live very often.
It has huge impacts on our lives, and you as aleader have a disproportionate impact on all of
(25:43):
those things in terms of your employees.
You impact your employees' families' lives.
You impact impact your employees in substantialways that perhaps you're not even aware of.
So I challenge you to think about what do youwant your legacy to be as a leader?
What do you wanna build day in and day out?
(26:04):
And it is through the small moments.
That's the second reason I called it smallmoments.
It is through those small moments that make orbreak your leadership.
It is the small simple things that you do thatyour employees notice, and it is the small
things, I guarantee you, that will irritate theheck out of them and annoy them.
So I challenge you to think about your legacy.
(26:25):
The book is available on Amazon.
You can get a Kindle version, the e version, orthe hard copy version through Amazon.
It is packed with relevant ideas.
It goes into different traits of leadership.
It talks about the importance of communicationin the workplace, how to run your meetings, the
importance of employee recognition andappreciation, the importance, of course, of
having fun at work, how to build a servicefirst culture, how to build a more resilient
(26:50):
culture.
It is packed with ideas, packed with a load offun.
So I I hope that if you pick up a copy of thebook, it will help you on your leadership
journey and help you leave behind a morepositive, substantial, lasting legacy.
Awesome.
Well, Mike, it's always a pleasure.
Mike always makes me evil every time I see him.
(27:13):
And, again, I love the hat.
For those that, you know, aren't seeing thehat, it was very pretty and pink.
And and I'm trying to take him seriously yetagain.
So, you know, for me, what am I taking away?
I talk a lot about, you know, leaders knowingtheir mental resilience, and Mike talks about
that much more.
(27:33):
Leader knowing thyself.
Who are you?
What is that what is that imprint?
When you're no longer in that space, what isthe legacy?
What will they say about the Michael Kors ofthe world when he is no longer there?
For you as a leader, think, what is it that youwant people to embody or remember with your
leadership?
And I often say as leaders, making the place abetter before you leave the environment, making
(27:56):
that environment that much better so peopleremember something special about you.
So for everyone, thanks again for tuning in.
If you wanted to know how you're connected inrelationships, just go to
roxieanddurhamodge.complarge@quiz.
Well, you'll do a really quick quiz, and we'lltell you kind of either at home or at work
where you are in reference to relationships andsome next steps so that how to make things
(28:18):
better.
So, again, Michael, thanks so much foreverybody with everybody hanging out with us.
Thanks so much for hanging out with us, andwe'll chat with you again next week.
Okay, Mike.
Thank
you, Roxanne.
Thank
you.
Take care.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
(28:41):
To work with Roxanne, visitroxandurhage.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
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