November 25, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge converses with Dr. Natasha Williams about her journey as a psychologist, the stigma around mental health in the Caribbean community, and the importance of cultural competency. They delve into the impact of systemic racism, corporate image, and mental wellness on productivity and customer reach. Lastly, they discuss steps for change and Dr. Williams' online course.
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(00:01):
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durgesh.
(00:40):
Hi, everyone.
It's, Rob Sand.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.
This week, I have doctor Natasha Williams.
Hi, Natasha.
How are you today?
I'm fine.
How are you?
Good.
Good.
Natasha brings, a special background with her,and, I thought she would add a really a nice
space to the podcast.
She's a psychologist, and she, we're here witha, in Ontario, and she's a done a variety of
(01:05):
things.
I'm gonna kinda tell you a little bit about herbackground.
She's the pasture of the board of directors ofwomen's health and women's hands.
It's a community health center for black womenand women of color in Toronto.
And she's also a a member of the OPA or theOntario Psychological Association Canadian
Psychological Association, and the APA, whichis the American Psychological Psychological
(01:26):
Association.
She is a currently a trainer with the AdlerGraduate Institute, and she certifies in,
people in the CBT program.
Chief, guest facilitates with, the CanadianAssociation of Mental Health.
Focusing on topics such as culturally adaptingbehavioral, cognitive behavioral therapy for
(01:46):
English speaking Caribbean people, which I'veI'm gonna be very interested in, talking to her
about that, seeing that's, I'm from Trinidad,and, she operates with psychological services
the co director of, allied psychologicalservices, where she operates an anti preface
anti oppressive private practice, looking atassessment, individual group, and family
(02:11):
therapy, and corp sorry, not family therapy,just group therapy.
Corporate consulting, research, supervision,and training to clients with different ethnic
racial backgrounds, gender, and socio economicbackgrounds.
Wow.
Thank you.
So, so I'm So you grew up in Dominica, which isa so did when when did you move to Canada?
(02:38):
So let's we'll go back a little bit.
I'm born here in Toronto.
I'm born in Toronto.
Okay.
I'm born
in Toronto.
So my parents are from the Commonwealth ofDominique.
Okay.
So I have that experience in terms of beingborn here, what being raised as, you know,
you're you're a Dominican.
That's pretty much it.
(03:00):
So you have an opposite experience to me, and Ithink we I said this to you just coming on that
I was born in turn at T'Bago.
Right.
Just when I was turning 17 to go to, grade 13and then go on to to U of T.
Right.
You know, so my most of I am Trinity, like theysay, right, and then coming and having to make
the switch, you know, as kind of a culturatingto 2 cultures, coming to Canada, having
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traveled a fair amount prior to that, but neverliving anywhere else, and then starting into
school immediately.
Yes.
So in my family, I have that experience as thatexperience in regards to we brought a cousin
over in around that time.
She was about 6 steam.
So I saw her transition.
She lived with us, and I saw her transitionfrom, you know, being in the school system in
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the Caribbean, till about a certain age.
And then from there coming in and then thesystems that were put in place to allow her to
transition.
As well into the Canadian education system.
So it was a it was a very interestingexperience to to witness on her end as well.
Right.
Because, you know, you you don't you you can'twait to, like, on that western elements.
(04:10):
Right?
We were exposed to a lot of things in theislands and, of course, media and bad media and
that time to now is different.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Oh, there was a visa, you know, more than twochannels.
Like, we had 2 and 11 than anybody sure thathe's the same thing.
Yeah.
And they signed up at 11 o'clock at night, andit was always new.
So guess what?
(04:30):
And then he come here and you know, everythingis, you know, open ended and, obviously, there
was a bit of diversity, but not a lot because Iwas in Mississauga, which is just out to
outside of Toronto for people.
And at that point, there was a bit ofdiversity, but not a lot.
And then, lots of things that were different,off the hop, like you know, their system, the
(04:53):
the academic system was a lot more lax comparedto what I was accustomed to, you know, and
just, you know, food and culture and customs,those types of things.
Now when you came, did you, did they push youback in a a back of grade kind or anything like
that, because I knew that was sort of the norm,back then.
And they did that with my cousin as well.
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And the rationale for that was so that shecould become accustomed to the Canadian
education system.
I don't know.
I don't know if they did the same thing withyou.
They didn't with me, but my math I was actuallyhaving a conversation with some friends on the
weekend, because in in the British system,which is what I grew up in with in Trinidad, or
(05:36):
with our math, you just gave the answer.
The actual steps because they figured withthese complex, you know, kind of concepts If
you got the answer, you got the answer.
Well, here, they wanted to see every step, sothey actually fast tracked me back to kind of
get up to this certain standard.
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So they made me do some, you know, catch up soI could start showing my methods.
And I was like, well, why do you need themethod?
And, in Trinidad, you know, when we're taking,tests, we're not allowed to look left or right
or back or which are forged,
because eating.
That was a very, very big norm.
Here, I guess it wasn't, and I realized thatquite quickly.
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So that people would, you know, kinda passanswers and stuff like that, which was
something that was horrifying when I kind ofexperienced for the first time.
So that's one of those things I went, oh mygoodness.
It was different.
You know, so that's one of the small things.
So to kinda tell me, you know, your path andwhat's what made you want to become a
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psychologist?
Did you always know and kind of, you know, whyyou decided to specialize where where you did?
Okay.
Well, my path was was interesting to say theleast.
I knew when I was about thirteen years old thatI wanted to be a psychologist which is strange.
Just means basically as soon as I got into highschool, I knew.
Part of it was, my mother had passed away 2weeks before I had started high school.
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So, and she was basically my role model.
Now she was not a psychologist, but to me, theway that she interacted with the community,
with the Caribbean community, our friends andand close family friends, it's symbolized being
a psychologist.
People would go to her and look to her foradvice.
(07:26):
She was always very supportive And always, youknow, was just very endearing, and always
wanted to see people level up to the nextlevel.
So Yes.
We've all immigrated here.
You know, we're all in apartments at this pointin time, but, no, we need to own property.
We need to keep on moving forward.
And if you couldn't move forward it right away,she would do things like, sell some of her her
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company stocks because she had, she would,invest in company stocks.
She worked at the telephone company.
So if you didn't have all of your down paymentfor a house, no.
Well, she would you know, cash some of herstocks to assist, you know, a family friend to
make sure that they had the down payment for ahouse so that everyone in our circles would own
pretty as an example.
So when she passed away, I knew that I wantedto be somebody like that in the community,
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somebody that would be able to to really, beable to to connect with the community.
So in that risk what I did is I decided it wasgonna be a psychologist.
So I took all the courses that I needed to, inorder to be able to get to university to be
(08:39):
able to, take the path straight.
So I did a bachelor of arts in in psychology.
My master's is in counseling psychology.
And then when I decided to do my doctor, Idecided I wanted clinical doctorate, which
meant that I didn't I didn't wanna go throughthe academic stream.
I just wanted to make sure that I had theskills to be a clinician.
(09:02):
So I took a SID instead, and I went to theUnited States to complete my doctorate.
And from there, what was interesting was wasthat being a Canadian going to an American
school, the training was a bit interesting.
And what I noticed, especially with thecultural competency component.
I found it was very, I wanna I wanna say,racist almost because what they would do is a
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lot of them a lot of the training was this ishow you work with the African American client.
This is how you work with the Asian Americanclient or the Native American client.
And I had to sit back, even though I was youngand a student, I really sat there, and I was
like, this doesn't make sense.
This this I don't understand how you can groupeverybody into you know, into a category and
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say that that's how you work with everybody.
So it really didn't make sense to me.
So when I came back, to Toronto.
I said, okay.
You know what?
I think there's more to this than the trainingthat I received.
So from there, I would start to seek outopportunities to get additional research to
read, see what was out there in regards to, youknow, how to work with And in particular, my
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community, because I I owe I already sawgrowing up that mental health and mental
illness was just not spoken about it at all.
There was huge stigma behind it, a lot ofshame, with that as well.
So I wanted to really figure out how do we thenopen the dialogue and be able to provide
(10:38):
resources or or information to the communitythat I thought that was well needed.
And hence, that's where I was able to, connectwith, the center for addiction and mental
health.
They had a research project that was funded bycitizenship and immigration Canada.
And that's where we were looking at how do weculturally adapt cognitive behavioral therapy
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for the Caribbean community.
And then what they did is they they did it indifferent, languages.
So I was one of the primary therapists for theEnglish speech Caribbean community.
They also had it in Spanish, and then they alsoeventually created a manual for the creole
French speaking community.
So that's where that piece came in.
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And I was able to participate in that pilotthat project, be able to create a manual, which
was then disseminated to community, and thenalso facilitate training for community members
that were also engaged in in, mental health.
And disseminating mental health services forthe Caribbean community.
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And I was still I've been training in that eversince.
I'm still been able to train several,practitioners in the community health center
settings and, and, and stuff like that.
So it's been a, a very fulfilling, way of ofbeing able to disseminate to the community.
And that project also then took me to theCaribbean as well to be able to train
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psychiatrists, psychologists, medical doctorsat UE or another institute.
So I've been to Trinidad.
I've been to Jamaica.
It looks like I might be heading to Dominica aswell to actually go back home, quote unquote,
to actually disseminate some of those servicesthere as well.
So now we've been able to go to the Caribbeanbecause they're asking for it, and they're
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really, they're, I think they're hurting.
A lot of, a lot of, adversity and trauma that'sbeen happening there, and they're looking at,
we can't have mental illness under the ruganymore because our community is suffering.
So it's it's been a great, adventure, to saythe least, to be able to be able to do the
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work, particularly in the community.
That that's amazing.
You know, growing up in, Trinidad, and,remember when we had issues, they had a
counselor.
I'm gonna call her a school counselor, and Iremember you know, my, you know, my parents had
some issues in their marriage, and then you'dkinda, as a child, you're you're young.
And I thought, oh, I'll I'll go talk to her,whatever.
She has a clue.
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Right?
It was like, you know, go talk to your mom anddad.
And I'm like, well, you know, they're fighting.
So I can talk to them.
And I that's where I kinda started to thinkthat I I realized there was a know, if we want
to go gap in service back then.
And then I realized that, you know, and thenyou you really relied on your friends, right,
who are Right.
The 1213 like you too.
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So, you know, you can understand the level ofit.
And I that's where I kind of born, my sense ofwhat I wanted to become as a psychotherapist
because I recognize what I needed as a, youknow, a young adolescent, with someone to speak
to And then if it was within the family, it'slike, where do you go?
Like, you know, you had nowhere to go.
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Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And a lot of times you didn't really goanywhere because you needed to keep it within
your four walls.
So, I mean, even sharing it with friends was alittle bit of an issue because the societal
stigma was that you know, either you're good oryou're crazy.
So if you even started to even talk about anytension or or mental health issues that that
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you were going through, you know, you would belabeled right away.
So you really either kept it to yourself more.
You really kept it in your house.
If even if you did go outside quite possibly,you know, a lot of times, clergy, you know, are
you religious leaders where the places that youwould go to for solace?
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So anything about, you know, going to atherapist is ecologist or or anything of that
nature.
There was no such thing.
You you didn't you didn't brandish yourbusiness.
Right.
Right.
For sure.
Because that means you're you're telling yourfamily business.
Business.
Yes.
Well, talk to you.
Don't talk to your family business.
Right?
That that's what they would say.
Right?
Absolutely.
So what I found is, well, I worked, I don'tknow if you probably don't know, but I when I
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start one of my very first jobs, it was I waswith victim services with the Metro Toronto
Police.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I was finished my undergrad, and I was in gradschool.
And I, you know, back then, you know, you'reyou're quite young.
I'm gonna say twenty four years old and becauseof I was of Caribbean descent, what they would
do is and I'll I'll never forget these callsbecause they would say, okay.
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I've because what would happen is a lot of the,individuals that were of creating background
would not talk to anybody, you know, that wasCanadian.
So they would send me in with my partner.
And, I'll never forget this.
Day 71, and I still have this memory in mybrain It was a family, a Caribbean.
Trinidad in family, it was a murder suicide.
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Oh, I see.
And they had 6 kids.
You know, and, you know, what, of course, thatpoint wasn't done very well.
The police, because they didn't I think havethe skill.
They called us in which we should not have beenobviously reporting, but we had to talk to all
children you know, to be able to support themto kind of tell them, you know, obviously we're
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just a bridge.
We didn't do any of this.
We just did the crises, you know, at that time.
And then you guys should have accordingly, but,you know, that impact, and I'm talking back in
I'm talking back in 1990 to, you know, was soimportant because what would happen is when I
would go in, there would be a more opennesswhere she's from Trinidad, you know, what
she's, you know, quote and quote one of us.
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So, you know, she can understand.
She can understand culture.
She can understand why this is so difficult.
Those types of things.
So I'm just curious with with what you learned.
And I I went to I did my undergrad, my, sorry,my grad school in that in, Lewis to New York.
So my university courses were also focused onmore of the Black American identity and things.
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And I would always say I'm Trinidadian, and myculture is a mostly a black culture, even
though I'm of Easternian descent, so it's acombination Wait.
Well, that is not the reality of a of a personthat's African African descent of, Caribbean
descent.
And they would go, well, no.
What do you mean?
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And I'm like, it's very, very different.
It's not the same.
And then they would, you know, try tounderstand what I was saying, and they, you
know, a lot of times the professors would get asense of what I was explaining.
Right.
You know, so with you, I could see what you'resaying with when you were doing your your,
doctorate.
So tell me with the Caribbean community now.
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What is it that you're seeing, or not just theCaribbean, but all ethnic groups?
What are you seeing now?
Wonder in, that when people are coming in incorporations, you know, people seeking mental
health service and things like that.
Well, I I think there's an interesting shifthappening is I I think that's the best way I
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can say it.
They want more open dialogue.
They, I think the communities and a lot ofethnic communities.
So I, I, I could branch out in outside of notjust the Caribbean.
What I'm really finding is is that they'relooking for dialogue.
They know that, you know, I think generallywhere we're seeing that mental illness is being
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spoken about more.
They'll let talk and a lot of these thingswhich are opening up the dialogue.
But I think what a lot of times they'renoticing is is that that dialogue doesn't
necessarily completely speak to my experience,you know, coming from an from an ethnic
community, but we need to have this dialogue.
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So what I'm finding is is that we are having alot of a lot of ethnic communities feeling more
open to actually speak.
About, mental illness.
And that, even generationally, I'm sort ofnoticing that some of the gaps are starting to
decrease So where it at, whereas it's, youknow, the this generation now, I mean, I'm in
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my forties, but, you know, this is sort of thethe twenty, twenty year old to thirty, forty
year olds are, becoming more open, to actuallyhaving the dialogue coming in for for mental
health or for psychotherapy, which is a hugedifference in comparison to not even wanting
to, to, to come out of your home.
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Never mind going see someone who was, as acomplete stranger, but even older generations
starting to even question what they've learnedfrom beforehand and what they've understood
culturally in terms of mental health and mentalillness and starting to challenge some of the
some of that, you know, long term ingrained,thought process that they would have had in
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regards to, what is mental illness, what whohow does it really manifest is it that this
person is really crazy?
Or, you know, there are so many factors thatare that are coming into play when someone says
that they're stressed or that they're happy tocultier or that they're depressed or that
they're they're they're there's, they're shyingaway from other people or or whatever the case
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may be.
So the I find that there's more dialogue.
What I the other thing that I'm seeing is isthat a lot of people in ethnic communities are
so happy to see people in the profession thatare also from ethnic communities.
Huge thing.
So a lot of times when I have people callinginto the office, they are looking for, yes, not
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only do I wanna discuss what is going on withme and discuss my mental health.
But do you have somebody there that is also,you know, African Canadian or or or whomever
because I want them to also understand.
It's not just about depression.
I want them to also understand what are some ofthe cultural implications how this, how my
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circumstances came to be also from a culturalvantage point.
So I don't wanna teach or explain this to atherapist who is not from my background as as
as well meaning as they would want to be.
I need someone who possibly understands myjourney, understands how I walk in this world,
you know, coming from an ethnic community.
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So that's why when I talk about my practice andbeing from an anti oppressive framework, it
goes beyond just, I treat depression, anxiety,trauma, whatever, we also have to understand
some of the essence that are also in placewhich also perpetuate mental illness and is
also a part of it.
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So racism, sexism, classism, how all of thesethings interplay in terms of somebody's
presentation.
So when they are looking for somebody, they'relike, yeah, listen.
I I really need someone who also understandshow that oppression and oppressive frameworks
have also contributed to, my my mental illnessor my problems.
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So there is an openness.
We still have a long way to go.
So, you know, it's it's interesting, right,because I'm I'm in the Niagara Falls, and I
moved here.
So it was very it's it's now becoming a bitmore diverse, but it's still not.
Right.
So a lot of my clients are Canadians.
Right?
And I'll give you an example of something thatI, you know, because I trained, you know, I'm
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my graduate degree was back in 1994, moved hereand kind of went into corporate consulting and
then and then went back to practice.
And I
I remember I had a, you know, a biracial,person who was a I work with trauma and Right.
She'd come in and we were, you know, I wasjust, you know, supervising as a clinical
supervisor, you get it, and we're talking, andshe was of Chinese and Canadian descent visibly
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beautiful woman.
And but she looked.
You could tell she was a bit Chinese and So Iwas de we were deconstructing kinda where she
was at and, you know, kinda, you know, lookingat the backgrounds and stuff like that.
I had done it that briefly, but I the questionthat I was remiss in asking was, what were the
cultural implications that she may have beenimpacted by and how that may have impacted her
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self esteem or self worse, a lot of the otherthings with the trauma.
And my clinical supervisor said to me, and I'mpretty astute.
She goes, do you think about that?
And I go, do I?
And I said, not consciously.
She said, but you're you've gotta understandyour way of presenting to the world and what
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you bring coming from the Caribbean, havingbeing exposed where the president's and maybe,
you know, your doctor and your dentist were alla different color.
You saw the you see the world in a differentway.
And I'm And, no, I'm struck.
Right?
I'm like, I'm a pretty astute person.
And then she said to me, what was her realitygoing up here?
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Back in, you know, obviously, next session, westart to talk, and she talked a lot about
bullying because she didn't look wide enough,and she didn't look Chinese enough.
And types of things and, how her reality wasthat you also had to struggle to fit and, you
know, you know, I'm not Canadian but I'm halfCanadian, but I'm half Chinese and those types
of things.
So it's interesting when you talk about fromyour framework, you know, deconstructing, what
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that's that reality is in someone's mind andthen how it might be presenting with the
problem or the issue that they're they'recoming with.
Absolutely.
You
know?
So I think very, very fascinating.
Now with with people coming into corporations,I wanna chat and and pivot a little bit there
and tell me how our core if we're talkingabout, you know, you know, diversity in in in
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therapy.
And and I'm sure I know your practice.
I'm I'm gonna assume there's several practicesthroughout the GTA, but I don't know.
Like yours, what about corporations?
What are they doing get getting ready, for theinflux of what we know is, you know, with the
diversity in Canada or even in the US.
(25:08):
I think the corporations, it's it's veryinteresting.
I find that a lot of them aim to get ready by,you know, having diversity training for
example, and what does that look like?
But I I think it's fascinating.
A lot of times when you put when you saydiversity training, a lot of times it it it I
(25:32):
don't I it doesn't end up being I think ascomprehensive as it needs to be.
A lot of it is just okay.
Very surface.
Let let let's let's put it that way.
So it's like, okay, be prepared.
There's gonna be, you know, there's there'speople in this, you know, that are gonna be
part of our team, but are gonna be from alldifferent backgrounds and religions.
(25:52):
And and, you know, we have to be encompassingand and and mindful of all of these, all of the
all of the different ethnic groups.
I think a lot of times what corporations don'tnecessarily understand is is that within that
corporation, there's there's still continues tobe a systemic racism that permeates through
(26:14):
through that, that organization.
And a lot of times it is seen throughmicroaggressions.
And and microaggressions meaning, you know, alot of the the the the things that are being
said or some of the nuances that are being saidto other, people from ethnic communities that
over time become very multilayered, liketraumas.
(26:40):
So I have a client, for example, who, you know,for her, it was every day, the the little
things that are that were being said.
The spaces that she was not allowed to take,you know, being in an office, but basically
saying that, you know, why are you why are yousitting here?
You know, this is, this is you're not supposedto be needing here or or something.
(27:02):
So, again, her feeling like that she wasn'tallowed to take the same space, that some of
her her Caucasian colleagues could take.
Or if she would say anything, oh, here comesthe angry black woman.
So not being able to express herself or or tostate her opinion for fear of, well, she's
this, you know, tall, you know, very commandingblack woman.
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So she's very intimidating.
So a lot of the a lot of these nuances thatwould occur in these spaces where you then
don't feel that you can be yourself, or and bewho you are.
It's like, I cannot be I cannot be my ethnicself.
I have to conform to what this either Europeanor Caucasian or westernized paradigm is so that
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I can fit in.
And to do that, that means I cannot be myauthentic self.
I have to put on a mask.
So that I can not only fit in, but then so thatI could thrive.
So where some of that difficulty lies, it waswhere a lot of corporations don't understand a
lot of those underlying mechanisms that areoccurring, which are then intimidating a lot of
(28:15):
of people that are working in those workplacesthat, are aiming to either get ahead or to
actually have a space where they feel safe.
There's there's a lack of safety that a lot of,people from ethnic communities that are working
in these organizations feel that they do nothave.
Because they cannot be their authentic self.
I have one client that basically says, I cannotI I feel like I can't be a my my black self.
(28:40):
For fear of coming across as too tooaggressive.
And I'm like, well, what does that mean?
She's like, Well, I, you know, if I have anopinion, I'd like to voice it.
But then when I do voice that opinion, I comeacross as the angry black woman.
So then what I usually do is just not sayanything.
So that I
very stifling, which is very stifling.
(29:01):
Very stifling.
And I think a lot of, corporations, again,don't understand that that, underlying
foundational mechanism that I think isoccurring within, within organizations or
corporations, which are causing your your youryour workforce to not be as productive because
(29:23):
they're they're not be able they're not able tobring their authentic self.
Now mind you, I'm not talking about bullying oror being aggressive, literally.
But if I cannot bring my authentic self or havemy voice for fear of being labeled or
typecasted or or not being able to see as tofit, then I I think, you know, your workforce
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can function at a 100% because you're askingpeople who are from ethnic communities to
conform to what you believe is eitherWesternized or European paradigm is.
And that, I think, ends up being a hugeproblem, which will impact productivity.
For sure.
So if you're saying, you know, we have aeurocentric frame.
Right.
(30:05):
It's so in bread and obviously has been, youknow, here since the inception of Canada,
right, less, So to kind of, you know, I'll I'llgive you an example.
So I married someone from Canada.
And, so picture this.
I'm a little you know, town here of 7000 peopleand I show up.
Yes.
I'm twenty two years old.
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So we're talking, you know, 30 years ago.
And, you know, I and then people weren't surewhere to put me, and I think I may have shared
this with you over lunch.
You're like, oh, I think she's Jamaican.
Which is pretty good English.
And, you know, and that that was the extent ofit until people got to know me, and they And
and, my ex husband at the time said heoverheard his mother saying, well, she speaks
(30:49):
proper English.
She says she's quite articulate and things likethat because it was it was it was a it was an
ignorance.
And, I mean, mind you, I could say I was oneonce my my community got to know me, I'm
completely embrace here.
It's a small little town, like like an islandthat I grew up in, and I love it.
But at the beginning, it was the fact that itwas different, and people are afraid oftentimes
(31:14):
of different.
And, and then, you know, they I would say, youknow, people would say something is simple, and
this silly, but I'm like, where is Trinidad?
And I'd be like, well, you know what theequator is?
And, you know, and then I would say, you know,the most shoveling Caribbean island just above
the equator and then there's South America.
Oh, because a lot of times people wouldn't knowwhere it was or things like that.
(31:37):
So Sometimes you're so right.
It's that not knowing that people would andthey would be afraid to ask the question, like,
oh, you know, did you you know, did you grow upin a normal home?
I said, well, yeah, I grew up in a home likethe one I live in now.
Oh, okay.
What was your school system like?
Well, it was British.
Oh, okay.
(31:58):
It was very strict.
And, you know, and then then again, so I it'sinteresting when you say these things about
microaggressions, and people don't know and howthey proceed.
Per perpetuates probably that, you know, thatwhole thing of because search, that person's
different.
That must mean they something, you know, theythey won't fit.
(32:19):
And then what's interesting is what a lot ofpeople will do is try to find a category to put
you in.
And a lot of times, that is for their comfort.
You know, it's like, okay.
Let me see.
She looks like this.
But, yes, she speaks this way.
So, you know, let me try and figure out whatcategory I could put her in, but that is for
their comfort and and to ease their curiosityto be more than anything else.
(32:42):
Right?
And then once I could create this category,okay, this is where we'll fit her in for now.
Right?
Until something else comes up and you're like,oh, wait a minute.
You know, again, she's she's quite articulatebecause god forbid, somebody from an ethnic
community cannot cannot speak.
Right?
And god forbid an accent means that you are notarticulate.
Right.
Right?
(33:02):
You need to speak the the queen's English.
You know, to be seen as articulate.
But the minute you have an accent, then all ofa sudden, the, you know, an accent means you're
not articulate.
So again, those in and of itself are then thosemicroaggressions in regards to how close is
this person to urocentric views or Eurocentricstandards.
(33:23):
And if they're not close enough, they're seenas different and other and not good enough.
So I'm I'm curious because when you're sayingthat this diversity training and I, you know,
we've all been there in those, and, you know,it's we're hitting the surface.
I would think, you know, from what I've beenexposed to in my corporate consulting, that
(33:44):
that surface just it just touches the top.
And
Right.
There's certain things that systemically needto be addressed for us to start having, I'm
gonna call it real authentic connection and andconversations about work.
Right, about productivity, about being present,about being, you know, available, but not
producing at your, you know, at at a 100%.
(34:07):
So what kind of things are being suggested tocompanies that you see now or what things
should be, should companies or people listeningin senior management to this podcast be
thinking about looking at it in reference toget themselves up, on a metric to to get more,
I'm gonna use it the word culturally aware.
(34:28):
Right.
And I and I I appreciate that because I know wetalk about other cultural sensitivity and and
all of the these terms and I I find that to me,those are just buzzwords.
They don't necessarily describe, I think, whatwould possibly be needed.
For for for corporations.
I think the first pieces is that thecorporation has to be open and willing enough
(34:53):
to have the uncomfortable conversation.
And a lot of times the diversity training is,again, for comfort.
Yeah.
It's to say it's to actually say, look.
We've had this diversity training.
Right.
But let us have the uncomfortable conversation,and that and that will allow us to go deeper.
(35:15):
It's to understand how the corporation couldthen be perpetuating that systemic racism.
And what does that system what does thatsystemic racism look like?
And how does your company possibly perpetuatethat?
Right?
Because I think a lot of times lack ofawareness and ignorance is what fuels systemic
(35:37):
racism.
You know, if the if the backward facingcustomer is now becoming a different colored
face or a different religious space, personcoming in, your customer coming in is all
potentially ethically different also.
Absolutely.
So it's like a double it's like a double edgekind of conundrum because if, let's say, myself
(36:00):
or you go to work into that corporation andpeople don't know much about us, They tip 2
around us.
They make assumptions, all those things, andwe're and I'm on guard.
So I'm gonna be, you know, there's gonna be alot of presenteeism because I'm gonna guard it,
kinda trying to do my job.
I'm not really productive.
And and your people coming into yourcorporation and whatever elements, they're also
(36:22):
potentially different how are they perceivingyour frontline or your middle management?
That's it.
That's it.
Because I think a lot of times what a lot ofcorporations don't realize is how they present
them.
Themselves.
You know, if you're, you know, top tier or or,you know, your management and everything does
not represent the community that you're tryingto reach stomach racism that is going on within
(36:51):
your company.
So I mean, it is important for them tounderstand how their hiring practices how they
present themselves in terms of acquiringbusiness and and and that sort of thing.
How does that impact they're a bottom linebecause we live in a diverse, you know,
society, and it diversed.
(37:11):
I mean, yes, I'm in Toronto, but that doesn'tmean you know, Toronto is the be all end all,
but Toronto, there's what, over 3,500,000, youknow, individuals widely diverse.
And if you're wanting to tap into that, butalso understanding that the the forward face of
your company is primarily caucasian.
(37:33):
Right.
But it it's not going to it it's not gonna behelpful, and it'll actually it actually will
will reduce your productivity because you havepeople from other ethnically diverse
communities that would not want to buy intoyour product or wanna come to you or or
whatever the case may be.
So you also have to look at what face are youpresenting you know, as the forward face of
(37:57):
your company.
And and that sometimes is the difficultdiscussion that they, you know, they'll say,
well, we hire so and such or whatever.
I go, what what how does your company presentitself?
You know, do I look at your your your, not onlyyour CEOs, but your management and and whatever
case maybe, and do I see ethnically diverse,individuals?
(38:20):
And I and I also ask a company to look at someof the terminology they use.
A lot of times, we'll talk about ethnicallydifferent, and I said different in comparison
to whom.
That's good points.
Right?
So we have to look at that.
And that's why I use ethnically diverse versusethnically different because when we talk about
We're looking at something that is the norm andeverything outside of that is something
(38:44):
different, which means we're still putting theEurocentric views as sort of the the top or the
main state and everything after that has to bejudged by by the eurocentric view.
So I go, what terminology are you using in inin your materials in in sort of how you present
yourself as a company in the training that youhave received.
(39:07):
Right?
So a lot of that then we we have to get intothe uncomfortable conversations, which a a lot
of times companies or organizations do not wantto do.
But if you're able to do that and start thatdiscussion, you can then start to, peel back.
And not only peel back.
(39:28):
I think it's, just being able to unravel someof these, these, these systems that have been
in place for a long time.
So it's it's not a one conversation thing.
It's something that is not gonna also happenovernight as well.
But as you start entering in theseuncomfortable, conversations, what you end up
(39:51):
having is the place that is going to be moreopen to have a ethnically diverse, individuals
and, and, and people, individuals within withinthe, within the organization, which means your
organization will be able then to reach out tomore people.
Which is then going to be increase yourproductivity.
(40:11):
So one will be get the other be get the other.
Right?
So attraction, because if you think of the, youknow, the millennials coming up and, you know,
all the the your talent more than likely isgonna be that that combination or ratio of you
know, ethnically diverse, you will get acombination of how are you gonna attract them?
And even if you do attract them, how are yougonna keep them?
(40:34):
Absolutely.
Right.
So that's it.
And, you know,
feeling uncomfortable in in in that setting.
You can you can get me, but how do you maintainme?
Right.
Thanks for sure.
You know, how do you maintain your client, orhow do you maintain your employee?
If I'm not feeling safe, in in in my workplace.
I don't know how long I'm gonna stay there for.
(40:55):
And if I am staying there, how productive am I,in a space where I don't feel safe or I don't
feel comfortable?
Well, I think, you know, you made a a valid,valid point that if I'm stifling, as any human
being, and we know this as a psychologist and apsychotherapist, that eventually that stuff has
to it has to find a way out Right?
(41:16):
You know, so suppression will take forms inmore arbitrations, more conflict in the
workplace, more lost days, incidental absences,harassment, all those things that are the
metrics that you look for, how productive areyou at at work, and your bottom line is gonna
be on the increase and just from going throughsomething as simple as, simple but not easy.
(41:40):
How what does it take to meet every individualsafe at work regardless of what background
they're coming from.
Absolutely.
And then again, a lot of times from a corporateviewpoint, when we talk about long of
productivity, the biggest thing thatcontributes to loss of productivity is mental
illness.
So if your workplace or your workforce is notwell, anxiety, depression, those types of
(42:04):
things, that is going to directly impact yourbottom line.
So it is, it is of the utmost importance notfor you to do diversity training and, and all
of these types of things, but to address, youknow, ethnic diversity within your workplace.
For sure.
And I think it's, you know, from a perspective,looking at mental wellness.
(42:25):
And I also say it's mental wellness all the wayup to, you know, potentially people that have
to go off because they're, you know, there'sdefinite psychiatric concerns But, really, we
know that if people are more connected, they'reable to recognize their stress response if
they're able to do that.
They're able to internally take responsibilityfor what they need to take out within care of
it within themselves.
If they're recognizing it bigger than them,they go to who they need to to get the
(42:48):
appropriate support so they could stay at work.
Right.
If all those things aren't in place, then, youknow, obviously, things are gonna fall down and
it's gonna impact, you know, what what it'scausing the company just overall.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So now I, I know you have a course coming up,which is a bit of a pivot.
(43:10):
So I want them just before we step off the, theelements on diversity, if that there's any,
managers or even C suite people that arelistening that are thinking, What should what
how do I decide where we are and if I couldmake an impact, what would be one thing that
they could do or, you know, to be able to kindof gauge where they are as a company.
(43:34):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, a lotof times, a lot of times, I think organizations
pull in a lot of stats.
A lot because you're always looking atstatistics and always looking at, you know,
where your company where your company is atthis point in time, how productive it is the is
(43:59):
the company.
So a lot of times, the numbers
Yeah.
Themselves do not lie.
Yeah.
And if you're noticing, for example, that yourcompany your company's statistics are stagnant,
or or not necessarily growing exponentially,there could be a clue there in regards to,
(44:21):
productivity and the culture, or, you know,checking the pulse of your your your department
because is it just that, you know, Is it onefor one numbers, or is there something going on
here where you have to check the wellness ofyour, of your group, of your team?
(44:46):
Yeah.
So a lot of times, the first place to go is isand again, a lot of times managers will do this
is sort of looking at the statistics, sort of,productivity of the company.
And the productivity will speak volumes.
And if it's just that, okay, is it flat?
Is there is there actually a decline inproductivity?
And it's not necessarily that you have to, youknow, try to get forced them to do more versus
(45:09):
what check the pulse or how sick is is the, isthe is the group.
Is there a is there a unwillingness for lack ofa better way of saying it Is there something
that is unwell with the team that we canaddress, that we can address a bit further?
And then from there, Again, stats and all ofthat is one thing.
(45:33):
A lot of times, from what I have seen with withsome of the clients that I've worked with
there's an absolute disconnect betweenmanagement and staff.
Mhmm.
And that absolute disconnect, really causes,again, a lot of the, the lack of productivity.
So a lot of it is then gonna be how do managersconnect And it's human connection.
(45:55):
It's not just, okay, you're not meeting thesenumbers or whatever the case may be.
A lot of it is human connection.
Yeah.
You know, what is going on?
You know, how are you faring?
How are you feeling?
What are some of the things that you may needindividually to thrive?
So it's taking a pulse of your not only justthe organization, but even if we go to the
(46:16):
management team level, being able to be able totake that pulse.
And from there, open up the dialogue to providewhatever is needed for that, that, that
individual or the team, to allow the team toget well.
A lot of it is, like, a a a sickness and how tosickness and wellness kind of, kind of.
(46:38):
I don't feel
like metrics is, like, from early interventionall the way up to prevention all the way up to
keeping somebody at work, which, you know,they, you know, we know with, long term
disability claims, you know, if you don'tmanage people well and the stressors, you know,
it's not always that they've had it in theirfamily.
It it may be that some people have But if ifpeople aren't able to, to, you know, get what
(47:03):
they need, so they, they, they implodesomewhere.
Exactly.
And I think also managers have to look atturnover.
Yeah.
I think that's a huge thing as well.
And a lot of times, they don't you have to lookat your statistics in terms of how how many
times has your has your team or your staffturned over?
(47:24):
If there is a high turnover rate, you may alsohave to look at the the culture of your team.
And what is contributing to that as well.
And again, they're they're in and of itself maylie some of the answers in regards to, you
know, what do I need to, to, to put in, put inplace to decrease that turnover.
(47:50):
There's something here that is causing that.
What can I put into place to to, not onlyincrease productivity, but increase the
wellness of that workplace environment so thatyou have a lower instance of turnover?
Yeah.
That makes so much sense, Natasha, just kindawhat is your pulse?
And then based on just human connection again,you're gonna get some of the answers and then
(48:15):
know what you need to start applying so to tobe able to make change.
And, of course, change doesn't happenovernight.
Absolutely not.
But it's starting to take the steps necessary.
Absolutely.
So I know we need to, start wrapping up, but Iknow you do have a course coming up.
So I would would like you to tell people where,what it's, maybe what it's about and where they
(48:37):
can get ahold of you I'm sure companies andexecutives that are listening, would be quite
interested in reaching out to.
So if
you let
them know about your website, that would befantastic.
Okay.
So that's great.
So, I do have a course that's coming up.
It's an online course.
So anybody can, you know, can hop on and, andbe able to participate.
(48:57):
So the course is called reclaiming yoursuperwoman, and it's how to find your voice
after divorce.
So the reason that this course came about waspart of it is is sort of my personal journey as
well, going through a divorce myself.
And having difficulty initially, how do Inavigate that?
But then how do I get to a space of finding myauthentic voice?
(49:19):
And being able to to speak my own truth in themidst of that without feeling stifled.
So in regards to that.
The the course, again, it's online.
We're gonna be starting it in April, 1st weekin April.
My, my info is, my email is in full, info atdoctor Natashawilliams.com.
(49:41):
People can feel free to reach out to me there.
And from there, what would I usually do iswe'll book a 30 minute consultation in which
we'll start to discuss a little bit more ofwhat some of your issues are and what you
would, ideally like to see happen in regardsto, being able to reclaim your voice and being
able to to move forward.
When you look at things such as the corporatelease that a lot of women have in regards to
(50:06):
themselves and particularly in a, in arelationship and if the relationship is is sort
of unraveling.
And what needs to happen from a clinicalperspective.
I also use a bit of faith as well.
So it's a clinical perspective faith in my ownpersonal experience that have been curated into
into this online course to help a woman findher voice and be able to live her own life and
(50:30):
her own truth.
No compromise.
So where has a lot of this compromising comefrom?
Where has a lot of these poor beliefs andvalues come from?
And how do we get to a space where we can startchallenging that?
But then also being able to, what I usuallycall the term how do you become comfortable
with being uncomfortable?
Mhmm.
And a lot of times, we we run away fromdiscomfort and what we do is then compromise.
(50:56):
And then we're unable to be there often toself.
So how do we get to a space in which we canthen be comfortable with being uncomfortable
and be able to then change the trajectory ofour lives, to be able to then walk in our own
truth, no compromise.
So I'll I'll do a 30 minute consultation.
And then from there, I, anyone would be able toregister for the master class.
(51:20):
And it's a 4 week introductory math masterclass.
And from there, you would then be eligible forI do have a more intensive 3 month 6 month
program as well once you complete theintroductory master class.
And if you wanna continue to work with me, tocontinue along that journey.
Awesome.
Well, what I will do, for, Natasha is I willinclude a link.
(51:43):
So you can just check the bottom of, thepodcast, and there will be a link that you can
just go right on.
And, you know, it sounds like an amazing,amazing class.
And the opportunity to work with you as aclinical psychologist with all the things that
you're bringing with you, along with the faithbased element to things having been there
myself.
You know, you did that importance of spendingthat time taking care of yourself when you're
(52:08):
going through something like this is is very,very key.
So, again, thanks so much, Natasha, forspending your time.
Thank you so much, Roxanne, for having me.
I appreciate it.
Awesome.
So for for for leaders, I want you to reallythink about, how are you being aware of the
needs of who is in front of you?
When in any realm, obviously today we'retalking a bit about, diversity, but just
(52:34):
overall, how are you ensuring that you know whois in front of you and addressing what their
needs are.
Like Natasha said, if we feel safe at work, we,we are completely on, and we're gonna be most
productive because I feel safe and secure.
And I'm just gonna relish my space because Igenerally all of us wanna do really, really
(52:55):
well at work.
So to keep that in mind, and if that'ssomething that's not occurring, to start to ask
yourself, What is it that I need to do to toget connected to the pulse of what's needed
within my organization that impacts the bottomline?
So again, thanks again for tuning in, and we'llchat with you soon.
If you're needing more information on me, youneed to go to roxanderhodge.com, and, we can
(53:18):
connect.
Take care, everyone.
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne visit
Roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
(53:39):
We'll see you next time.
An authentic living with Roxanne.
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durgesh.
(00:40):
Hi, everyone.
It's, Rob Sand.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.
This week, I have doctor Natasha Williams.
Hi, Natasha.
How are you today?
I'm fine.
How are you?
Good.
Good.
Natasha brings, a special background with her,and, I thought she would add a really a nice
space to the podcast.
She's a psychologist, and she, we're here witha, in Ontario, and she's a done a variety of
(01:05):
things.
I'm gonna kinda tell you a little bit about herbackground.
She's the pasture of the board of directors ofwomen's health and women's hands.
It's a community health center for black womenand women of color in Toronto.
And she's also a a member of the OPA or theOntario Psychological Association Canadian
Psychological Association, and the APA, whichis the American Psychological Psychological
(01:26):
Association.
She is a currently a trainer with the AdlerGraduate Institute, and she certifies in,
people in the CBT program.
Chief, guest facilitates with, the CanadianAssociation of Mental Health.
Focusing on topics such as culturally adaptingbehavioral, cognitive behavioral therapy for
(01:46):
English speaking Caribbean people, which I'veI'm gonna be very interested in, talking to her
about that, seeing that's, I'm from Trinidad,and, she operates with psychological services
the co director of, allied psychologicalservices, where she operates an anti preface
anti oppressive private practice, looking atassessment, individual group, and family
(02:11):
therapy, and corp sorry, not family therapy,just group therapy.
Corporate consulting, research, supervision,and training to clients with different ethnic
racial backgrounds, gender, and socio economicbackgrounds.
Wow.
Thank you.
So, so I'm So you grew up in Dominica, which isa so did when when did you move to Canada?
(02:38):
So let's we'll go back a little bit.
I'm born here in Toronto.
I'm born in Toronto.
Okay.
I'm born
in Toronto.
So my parents are from the Commonwealth ofDominique.
Okay.
So I have that experience in terms of beingborn here, what being raised as, you know,
you're you're a Dominican.
That's pretty much it.
(03:00):
So you have an opposite experience to me, and Ithink we I said this to you just coming on that
I was born in turn at T'Bago.
Right.
Just when I was turning 17 to go to, grade 13and then go on to to U of T.
Right.
You know, so my most of I am Trinity, like theysay, right, and then coming and having to make
the switch, you know, as kind of a culturatingto 2 cultures, coming to Canada, having
(03:26):
traveled a fair amount prior to that, but neverliving anywhere else, and then starting into
school immediately.
Yes.
So in my family, I have that experience as thatexperience in regards to we brought a cousin
over in around that time.
She was about 6 steam.
So I saw her transition.
She lived with us, and I saw her transitionfrom, you know, being in the school system in
(03:47):
the Caribbean, till about a certain age.
And then from there coming in and then thesystems that were put in place to allow her to
transition.
As well into the Canadian education system.
So it was a it was a very interestingexperience to to witness on her end as well.
Right.
Because, you know, you you don't you you can'twait to, like, on that western elements.
(04:10):
Right?
We were exposed to a lot of things in theislands and, of course, media and bad media and
that time to now is different.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Oh, there was a visa, you know, more than twochannels.
Like, we had 2 and 11 than anybody sure thathe's the same thing.
Yeah.
And they signed up at 11 o'clock at night, andit was always new.
So guess what?
(04:30):
And then he come here and you know, everythingis, you know, open ended and, obviously, there
was a bit of diversity, but not a lot because Iwas in Mississauga, which is just out to
outside of Toronto for people.
And at that point, there was a bit ofdiversity, but not a lot.
And then, lots of things that were different,off the hop, like you know, their system, the
(04:53):
the academic system was a lot more lax comparedto what I was accustomed to, you know, and
just, you know, food and culture and customs,those types of things.
Now when you came, did you, did they push youback in a a back of grade kind or anything like
that, because I knew that was sort of the norm,back then.
And they did that with my cousin as well.
(05:15):
And the rationale for that was so that shecould become accustomed to the Canadian
education system.
I don't know.
I don't know if they did the same thing withyou.
They didn't with me, but my math I was actuallyhaving a conversation with some friends on the
weekend, because in in the British system,which is what I grew up in with in Trinidad, or
(05:36):
with our math, you just gave the answer.
The actual steps because they figured withthese complex, you know, kind of concepts If
you got the answer, you got the answer.
Well, here, they wanted to see every step, sothey actually fast tracked me back to kind of
get up to this certain standard.
(05:57):
So they made me do some, you know, catch up soI could start showing my methods.
And I was like, well, why do you need themethod?
And, in Trinidad, you know, when we're taking,tests, we're not allowed to look left or right
or back or which are forged,
because eating.
That was a very, very big norm.
Here, I guess it wasn't, and I realized thatquite quickly.
(06:19):
So that people would, you know, kinda passanswers and stuff like that, which was
something that was horrifying when I kind ofexperienced for the first time.
So that's one of those things I went, oh mygoodness.
It was different.
You know, so that's one of the small things.
So to kinda tell me, you know, your path andwhat's what made you want to become a
(06:40):
psychologist?
Did you always know and kind of, you know, whyyou decided to specialize where where you did?
Okay.
Well, my path was was interesting to say theleast.
I knew when I was about thirteen years old thatI wanted to be a psychologist which is strange.
Just means basically as soon as I got into highschool, I knew.
Part of it was, my mother had passed away 2weeks before I had started high school.
(07:06):
So, and she was basically my role model.
Now she was not a psychologist, but to me, theway that she interacted with the community,
with the Caribbean community, our friends andand close family friends, it's symbolized being
a psychologist.
People would go to her and look to her foradvice.
(07:26):
She was always very supportive And always, youknow, was just very endearing, and always
wanted to see people level up to the nextlevel.
So Yes.
We've all immigrated here.
You know, we're all in apartments at this pointin time, but, no, we need to own property.
We need to keep on moving forward.
And if you couldn't move forward it right away,she would do things like, sell some of her her
(07:54):
company stocks because she had, she would,invest in company stocks.
She worked at the telephone company.
So if you didn't have all of your down paymentfor a house, no.
Well, she would you know, cash some of herstocks to assist, you know, a family friend to
make sure that they had the down payment for ahouse so that everyone in our circles would own
pretty as an example.
So when she passed away, I knew that I wantedto be somebody like that in the community,
(08:19):
somebody that would be able to to really, beable to to connect with the community.
So in that risk what I did is I decided it wasgonna be a psychologist.
So I took all the courses that I needed to, inorder to be able to get to university to be
(08:39):
able to, take the path straight.
So I did a bachelor of arts in in psychology.
My master's is in counseling psychology.
And then when I decided to do my doctor, Idecided I wanted clinical doctorate, which
meant that I didn't I didn't wanna go throughthe academic stream.
I just wanted to make sure that I had theskills to be a clinician.
(09:02):
So I took a SID instead, and I went to theUnited States to complete my doctorate.
And from there, what was interesting was wasthat being a Canadian going to an American
school, the training was a bit interesting.
And what I noticed, especially with thecultural competency component.
I found it was very, I wanna I wanna say,racist almost because what they would do is a
(09:30):
lot of them a lot of the training was this ishow you work with the African American client.
This is how you work with the Asian Americanclient or the Native American client.
And I had to sit back, even though I was youngand a student, I really sat there, and I was
like, this doesn't make sense.
This this I don't understand how you can groupeverybody into you know, into a category and
(09:54):
say that that's how you work with everybody.
So it really didn't make sense to me.
So when I came back, to Toronto.
I said, okay.
You know what?
I think there's more to this than the trainingthat I received.
So from there, I would start to seek outopportunities to get additional research to
read, see what was out there in regards to, youknow, how to work with And in particular, my
(10:18):
community, because I I owe I already sawgrowing up that mental health and mental
illness was just not spoken about it at all.
There was huge stigma behind it, a lot ofshame, with that as well.
So I wanted to really figure out how do we thenopen the dialogue and be able to provide
(10:38):
resources or or information to the communitythat I thought that was well needed.
And hence, that's where I was able to, connectwith, the center for addiction and mental
health.
They had a research project that was funded bycitizenship and immigration Canada.
And that's where we were looking at how do weculturally adapt cognitive behavioral therapy
(11:00):
for the Caribbean community.
And then what they did is they they did it indifferent, languages.
So I was one of the primary therapists for theEnglish speech Caribbean community.
They also had it in Spanish, and then they alsoeventually created a manual for the creole
French speaking community.
So that's where that piece came in.
(11:21):
And I was able to participate in that pilotthat project, be able to create a manual, which
was then disseminated to community, and thenalso facilitate training for community members
that were also engaged in in, mental health.
And disseminating mental health services forthe Caribbean community.
(11:42):
And I was still I've been training in that eversince.
I'm still been able to train several,practitioners in the community health center
settings and, and, and stuff like that.
So it's been a, a very fulfilling, way of ofbeing able to disseminate to the community.
And that project also then took me to theCaribbean as well to be able to train
(12:08):
psychiatrists, psychologists, medical doctorsat UE or another institute.
So I've been to Trinidad.
I've been to Jamaica.
It looks like I might be heading to Dominica aswell to actually go back home, quote unquote,
to actually disseminate some of those servicesthere as well.
So now we've been able to go to the Caribbeanbecause they're asking for it, and they're
(12:29):
really, they're, I think they're hurting.
A lot of, a lot of, adversity and trauma that'sbeen happening there, and they're looking at,
we can't have mental illness under the ruganymore because our community is suffering.
So it's it's been a great, adventure, to saythe least, to be able to be able to do the
(12:51):
work, particularly in the community.
That that's amazing.
You know, growing up in, Trinidad, and,remember when we had issues, they had a
counselor.
I'm gonna call her a school counselor, and Iremember you know, my, you know, my parents had
some issues in their marriage, and then you'dkinda, as a child, you're you're young.
And I thought, oh, I'll I'll go talk to her,whatever.
She has a clue.
(13:11):
Right?
It was like, you know, go talk to your mom anddad.
And I'm like, well, you know, they're fighting.
So I can talk to them.
And I that's where I kinda started to thinkthat I I realized there was a know, if we want
to go gap in service back then.
And then I realized that, you know, and thenyou you really relied on your friends, right,
who are Right.
The 1213 like you too.
(13:31):
So, you know, you can understand the level ofit.
And I that's where I kind of born, my sense ofwhat I wanted to become as a psychotherapist
because I recognize what I needed as a, youknow, a young adolescent, with someone to speak
to And then if it was within the family, it'slike, where do you go?
Like, you know, you had nowhere to go.
(13:51):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And a lot of times you didn't really goanywhere because you needed to keep it within
your four walls.
So, I mean, even sharing it with friends was alittle bit of an issue because the societal
stigma was that you know, either you're good oryou're crazy.
So if you even started to even talk about anytension or or mental health issues that that
(14:15):
you were going through, you know, you would belabeled right away.
So you really either kept it to yourself more.
You really kept it in your house.
If even if you did go outside quite possibly,you know, a lot of times, clergy, you know, are
you religious leaders where the places that youwould go to for solace?
(14:36):
So anything about, you know, going to atherapist is ecologist or or anything of that
nature.
There was no such thing.
You you didn't you didn't brandish yourbusiness.
Right.
Right.
For sure.
Because that means you're you're telling yourfamily business.
Business.
Yes.
Well, talk to you.
Don't talk to your family business.
Right?
That that's what they would say.
Right?
Absolutely.
So what I found is, well, I worked, I don'tknow if you probably don't know, but I when I
(14:59):
start one of my very first jobs, it was I waswith victim services with the Metro Toronto
Police.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I was finished my undergrad, and I was in gradschool.
And I, you know, back then, you know, you'reyou're quite young.
I'm gonna say twenty four years old and becauseof I was of Caribbean descent, what they would
do is and I'll I'll never forget these callsbecause they would say, okay.
(15:21):
I've because what would happen is a lot of the,individuals that were of creating background
would not talk to anybody, you know, that wasCanadian.
So they would send me in with my partner.
And, I'll never forget this.
Day 71, and I still have this memory in mybrain It was a family, a Caribbean.
Trinidad in family, it was a murder suicide.
(15:44):
Oh, I see.
And they had 6 kids.
You know, and, you know, what, of course, thatpoint wasn't done very well.
The police, because they didn't I think havethe skill.
They called us in which we should not have beenobviously reporting, but we had to talk to all
children you know, to be able to support themto kind of tell them, you know, obviously we're
(16:05):
just a bridge.
We didn't do any of this.
We just did the crises, you know, at that time.
And then you guys should have accordingly, but,you know, that impact, and I'm talking back in
I'm talking back in 1990 to, you know, was soimportant because what would happen is when I
would go in, there would be a more opennesswhere she's from Trinidad, you know, what
she's, you know, quote and quote one of us.
(16:27):
So, you know, she can understand.
She can understand culture.
She can understand why this is so difficult.
Those types of things.
So I'm just curious with with what you learned.
And I I went to I did my undergrad, my, sorry,my grad school in that in, Lewis to New York.
So my university courses were also focused onmore of the Black American identity and things.
(16:49):
And I would always say I'm Trinidadian, and myculture is a mostly a black culture, even
though I'm of Easternian descent, so it's acombination Wait.
Well, that is not the reality of a of a personthat's African African descent of, Caribbean
descent.
And they would go, well, no.
What do you mean?
(17:09):
And I'm like, it's very, very different.
It's not the same.
And then they would, you know, try tounderstand what I was saying, and they, you
know, a lot of times the professors would get asense of what I was explaining.
Right.
You know, so with you, I could see what you'resaying with when you were doing your your,
doctorate.
So tell me with the Caribbean community now.
(17:31):
What is it that you're seeing, or not just theCaribbean, but all ethnic groups?
What are you seeing now?
Wonder in, that when people are coming in incorporations, you know, people seeking mental
health service and things like that.
Well, I I think there's an interesting shifthappening is I I think that's the best way I
(17:52):
can say it.
They want more open dialogue.
They, I think the communities and a lot ofethnic communities.
So I, I, I could branch out in outside of notjust the Caribbean.
What I'm really finding is is that they'relooking for dialogue.
They know that, you know, I think generallywhere we're seeing that mental illness is being
(18:15):
spoken about more.
They'll let talk and a lot of these thingswhich are opening up the dialogue.
But I think what a lot of times they'renoticing is is that that dialogue doesn't
necessarily completely speak to my experience,you know, coming from an from an ethnic
community, but we need to have this dialogue.
(18:37):
So what I'm finding is is that we are having alot of a lot of ethnic communities feeling more
open to actually speak.
About, mental illness.
And that, even generationally, I'm sort ofnoticing that some of the gaps are starting to
decrease So where it at, whereas it's, youknow, the this generation now, I mean, I'm in
(18:59):
my forties, but, you know, this is sort of thethe twenty, twenty year old to thirty, forty
year olds are, becoming more open, to actuallyhaving the dialogue coming in for for mental
health or for psychotherapy, which is a hugedifference in comparison to not even wanting
to, to, to come out of your home.
(19:19):
Never mind going see someone who was, as acomplete stranger, but even older generations
starting to even question what they've learnedfrom beforehand and what they've understood
culturally in terms of mental health and mentalillness and starting to challenge some of the
some of that, you know, long term ingrained,thought process that they would have had in
(19:46):
regards to, what is mental illness, what whohow does it really manifest is it that this
person is really crazy?
Or, you know, there are so many factors thatare that are coming into play when someone says
that they're stressed or that they're happy tocultier or that they're depressed or that
they're they're they're there's, they're shyingaway from other people or or whatever the case
(20:10):
may be.
So the I find that there's more dialogue.
What I the other thing that I'm seeing is isthat a lot of people in ethnic communities are
so happy to see people in the profession thatare also from ethnic communities.
Huge thing.
So a lot of times when I have people callinginto the office, they are looking for, yes, not
(20:33):
only do I wanna discuss what is going on withme and discuss my mental health.
But do you have somebody there that is also,you know, African Canadian or or or whomever
because I want them to also understand.
It's not just about depression.
I want them to also understand what are some ofthe cultural implications how this, how my
(20:58):
circumstances came to be also from a culturalvantage point.
So I don't wanna teach or explain this to atherapist who is not from my background as as
as well meaning as they would want to be.
I need someone who possibly understands myjourney, understands how I walk in this world,
you know, coming from an ethnic community.
(21:20):
So that's why when I talk about my practice andbeing from an anti oppressive framework, it
goes beyond just, I treat depression, anxiety,trauma, whatever, we also have to understand
some of the essence that are also in placewhich also perpetuate mental illness and is
also a part of it.
(21:41):
So racism, sexism, classism, how all of thesethings interplay in terms of somebody's
presentation.
So when they are looking for somebody, they'relike, yeah, listen.
I I really need someone who also understandshow that oppression and oppressive frameworks
have also contributed to, my my mental illnessor my problems.
(22:05):
So there is an openness.
We still have a long way to go.
So, you know, it's it's interesting, right,because I'm I'm in the Niagara Falls, and I
moved here.
So it was very it's it's now becoming a bitmore diverse, but it's still not.
Right.
So a lot of my clients are Canadians.
Right?
And I'll give you an example of something thatI, you know, because I trained, you know, I'm
(22:28):
my graduate degree was back in 1994, moved hereand kind of went into corporate consulting and
then and then went back to practice.
And I
I remember I had a, you know, a biracial,person who was a I work with trauma and Right.
She'd come in and we were, you know, I wasjust, you know, supervising as a clinical
supervisor, you get it, and we're talking, andshe was of Chinese and Canadian descent visibly
(22:51):
beautiful woman.
And but she looked.
You could tell she was a bit Chinese and So Iwas de we were deconstructing kinda where she
was at and, you know, kinda, you know, lookingat the backgrounds and stuff like that.
I had done it that briefly, but I the questionthat I was remiss in asking was, what were the
cultural implications that she may have beenimpacted by and how that may have impacted her
(23:15):
self esteem or self worse, a lot of the otherthings with the trauma.
And my clinical supervisor said to me, and I'mpretty astute.
She goes, do you think about that?
And I go, do I?
And I said, not consciously.
She said, but you're you've gotta understandyour way of presenting to the world and what
(23:36):
you bring coming from the Caribbean, havingbeing exposed where the president's and maybe,
you know, your doctor and your dentist were alla different color.
You saw the you see the world in a differentway.
And I'm And, no, I'm struck.
Right?
I'm like, I'm a pretty astute person.
And then she said to me, what was her realitygoing up here?
(23:57):
Back in, you know, obviously, next session, westart to talk, and she talked a lot about
bullying because she didn't look wide enough,and she didn't look Chinese enough.
And types of things and, how her reality wasthat you also had to struggle to fit and, you
know, you know, I'm not Canadian but I'm halfCanadian, but I'm half Chinese and those types
of things.
So it's interesting when you talk about fromyour framework, you know, deconstructing, what
(24:23):
that's that reality is in someone's mind andthen how it might be presenting with the
problem or the issue that they're they'recoming with.
Absolutely.
You
know?
So I think very, very fascinating.
Now with with people coming into corporations,I wanna chat and and pivot a little bit there
and tell me how our core if we're talkingabout, you know, you know, diversity in in in
(24:48):
therapy.
And and I'm sure I know your practice.
I'm I'm gonna assume there's several practicesthroughout the GTA, but I don't know.
Like yours, what about corporations?
What are they doing get getting ready, for theinflux of what we know is, you know, with the
diversity in Canada or even in the US.
(25:08):
I think the corporations, it's it's veryinteresting.
I find that a lot of them aim to get ready by,you know, having diversity training for
example, and what does that look like?
But I I think it's fascinating.
A lot of times when you put when you saydiversity training, a lot of times it it it I
(25:32):
don't I it doesn't end up being I think ascomprehensive as it needs to be.
A lot of it is just okay.
Very surface.
Let let let's let's put it that way.
So it's like, okay, be prepared.
There's gonna be, you know, there's there'speople in this, you know, that are gonna be
part of our team, but are gonna be from alldifferent backgrounds and religions.
(25:52):
And and, you know, we have to be encompassingand and and mindful of all of these, all of the
all of the different ethnic groups.
I think a lot of times what corporations don'tnecessarily understand is is that within that
corporation, there's there's still continues tobe a systemic racism that permeates through
(26:14):
through that, that organization.
And a lot of times it is seen throughmicroaggressions.
And and microaggressions meaning, you know, alot of the the the the things that are being
said or some of the nuances that are being saidto other, people from ethnic communities that
over time become very multilayered, liketraumas.
(26:40):
So I have a client, for example, who, you know,for her, it was every day, the the little
things that are that were being said.
The spaces that she was not allowed to take,you know, being in an office, but basically
saying that, you know, why are you why are yousitting here?
You know, this is, this is you're not supposedto be needing here or or something.
(27:02):
So, again, her feeling like that she wasn'tallowed to take the same space, that some of
her her Caucasian colleagues could take.
Or if she would say anything, oh, here comesthe angry black woman.
So not being able to express herself or or tostate her opinion for fear of, well, she's
this, you know, tall, you know, very commandingblack woman.
(27:27):
So she's very intimidating.
So a lot of the a lot of these nuances thatwould occur in these spaces where you then
don't feel that you can be yourself, or and bewho you are.
It's like, I cannot be I cannot be my ethnicself.
I have to conform to what this either Europeanor Caucasian or westernized paradigm is so that
(27:52):
I can fit in.
And to do that, that means I cannot be myauthentic self.
I have to put on a mask.
So that I can not only fit in, but then so thatI could thrive.
So where some of that difficulty lies, it waswhere a lot of corporations don't understand a
lot of those underlying mechanisms that areoccurring, which are then intimidating a lot of
(28:15):
of people that are working in those workplacesthat, are aiming to either get ahead or to
actually have a space where they feel safe.
There's there's a lack of safety that a lot of,people from ethnic communities that are working
in these organizations feel that they do nothave.
Because they cannot be their authentic self.
I have one client that basically says, I cannotI I feel like I can't be a my my black self.
(28:40):
For fear of coming across as too tooaggressive.
And I'm like, well, what does that mean?
She's like, Well, I, you know, if I have anopinion, I'd like to voice it.
But then when I do voice that opinion, I comeacross as the angry black woman.
So then what I usually do is just not sayanything.
So that I
very stifling, which is very stifling.
(29:01):
Very stifling.
And I think a lot of, corporations, again,don't understand that that, underlying
foundational mechanism that I think isoccurring within, within organizations or
corporations, which are causing your your youryour workforce to not be as productive because
(29:23):
they're they're not be able they're not able tobring their authentic self.
Now mind you, I'm not talking about bullying oror being aggressive, literally.
But if I cannot bring my authentic self or havemy voice for fear of being labeled or
typecasted or or not being able to see as tofit, then I I think, you know, your workforce
(29:45):
can function at a 100% because you're askingpeople who are from ethnic communities to
conform to what you believe is eitherWesternized or European paradigm is.
And that, I think, ends up being a hugeproblem, which will impact productivity.
For sure.
So if you're saying, you know, we have aeurocentric frame.
Right.
(30:05):
It's so in bread and obviously has been, youknow, here since the inception of Canada,
right, less, So to kind of, you know, I'll I'llgive you an example.
So I married someone from Canada.
And, so picture this.
I'm a little you know, town here of 7000 peopleand I show up.
Yes.
I'm twenty two years old.
(30:25):
So we're talking, you know, 30 years ago.
And, you know, I and then people weren't surewhere to put me, and I think I may have shared
this with you over lunch.
You're like, oh, I think she's Jamaican.
Which is pretty good English.
And, you know, and that that was the extent ofit until people got to know me, and they And
and, my ex husband at the time said heoverheard his mother saying, well, she speaks
(30:49):
proper English.
She says she's quite articulate and things likethat because it was it was it was a it was an
ignorance.
And, I mean, mind you, I could say I was oneonce my my community got to know me, I'm
completely embrace here.
It's a small little town, like like an islandthat I grew up in, and I love it.
But at the beginning, it was the fact that itwas different, and people are afraid oftentimes
(31:14):
of different.
And, and then, you know, they I would say, youknow, people would say something is simple, and
this silly, but I'm like, where is Trinidad?
And I'd be like, well, you know what theequator is?
And, you know, and then I would say, you know,the most shoveling Caribbean island just above
the equator and then there's South America.
Oh, because a lot of times people wouldn't knowwhere it was or things like that.
(31:37):
So Sometimes you're so right.
It's that not knowing that people would andthey would be afraid to ask the question, like,
oh, you know, did you you know, did you grow upin a normal home?
I said, well, yeah, I grew up in a home likethe one I live in now.
Oh, okay.
What was your school system like?
Well, it was British.
Oh, okay.
(31:58):
It was very strict.
And, you know, and then then again, so I it'sinteresting when you say these things about
microaggressions, and people don't know and howthey proceed.
Per perpetuates probably that, you know, thatwhole thing of because search, that person's
different.
That must mean they something, you know, theythey won't fit.
(32:19):
And then what's interesting is what a lot ofpeople will do is try to find a category to put
you in.
And a lot of times, that is for their comfort.
You know, it's like, okay.
Let me see.
She looks like this.
But, yes, she speaks this way.
So, you know, let me try and figure out whatcategory I could put her in, but that is for
their comfort and and to ease their curiosityto be more than anything else.
(32:42):
Right?
And then once I could create this category,okay, this is where we'll fit her in for now.
Right?
Until something else comes up and you're like,oh, wait a minute.
You know, again, she's she's quite articulatebecause god forbid, somebody from an ethnic
community cannot cannot speak.
Right?
And god forbid an accent means that you are notarticulate.
Right.
Right?
(33:02):
You need to speak the the queen's English.
You know, to be seen as articulate.
But the minute you have an accent, then all ofa sudden, the, you know, an accent means you're
not articulate.
So again, those in and of itself are then thosemicroaggressions in regards to how close is
this person to urocentric views or Eurocentricstandards.
(33:23):
And if they're not close enough, they're seenas different and other and not good enough.
So I'm I'm curious because when you're sayingthat this diversity training and I, you know,
we've all been there in those, and, you know,it's we're hitting the surface.
I would think, you know, from what I've beenexposed to in my corporate consulting, that
(33:44):
that surface just it just touches the top.
And
Right.
There's certain things that systemically needto be addressed for us to start having, I'm
gonna call it real authentic connection and andconversations about work.
Right, about productivity, about being present,about being, you know, available, but not
producing at your, you know, at at a 100%.
(34:07):
So what kind of things are being suggested tocompanies that you see now or what things
should be, should companies or people listeningin senior management to this podcast be
thinking about looking at it in reference toget themselves up, on a metric to to get more,
I'm gonna use it the word culturally aware.
(34:28):
Right.
And I and I I appreciate that because I know wetalk about other cultural sensitivity and and
all of the these terms and I I find that to me,those are just buzzwords.
They don't necessarily describe, I think, whatwould possibly be needed.
For for for corporations.
I think the first pieces is that thecorporation has to be open and willing enough
(34:53):
to have the uncomfortable conversation.
And a lot of times the diversity training is,again, for comfort.
Yeah.
It's to say it's to actually say, look.
We've had this diversity training.
Right.
But let us have the uncomfortable conversation,and that and that will allow us to go deeper.
(35:15):
It's to understand how the corporation couldthen be perpetuating that systemic racism.
And what does that system what does thatsystemic racism look like?
And how does your company possibly perpetuatethat?
Right?
Because I think a lot of times lack ofawareness and ignorance is what fuels systemic
(35:37):
racism.
You know, if the if the backward facingcustomer is now becoming a different colored
face or a different religious space, personcoming in, your customer coming in is all
potentially ethically different also.
Absolutely.
So it's like a double it's like a double edgekind of conundrum because if, let's say, myself
(36:00):
or you go to work into that corporation andpeople don't know much about us, They tip 2
around us.
They make assumptions, all those things, andwe're and I'm on guard.
So I'm gonna be, you know, there's gonna be alot of presenteeism because I'm gonna guard it,
kinda trying to do my job.
I'm not really productive.
And and your people coming into yourcorporation and whatever elements, they're also
(36:22):
potentially different how are they perceivingyour frontline or your middle management?
That's it.
That's it.
Because I think a lot of times what a lot ofcorporations don't realize is how they present
them.
Themselves.
You know, if you're, you know, top tier or or,you know, your management and everything does
not represent the community that you're tryingto reach stomach racism that is going on within
(36:51):
your company.
So I mean, it is important for them tounderstand how their hiring practices how they
present themselves in terms of acquiringbusiness and and and that sort of thing.
How does that impact they're a bottom linebecause we live in a diverse, you know,
society, and it diversed.
(37:11):
I mean, yes, I'm in Toronto, but that doesn'tmean you know, Toronto is the be all end all,
but Toronto, there's what, over 3,500,000, youknow, individuals widely diverse.
And if you're wanting to tap into that, butalso understanding that the the forward face of
your company is primarily caucasian.
(37:33):
Right.
But it it's not going to it it's not gonna behelpful, and it'll actually it actually will
will reduce your productivity because you havepeople from other ethnically diverse
communities that would not want to buy intoyour product or wanna come to you or or
whatever the case may be.
So you also have to look at what face are youpresenting you know, as the forward face of
(37:57):
your company.
And and that sometimes is the difficultdiscussion that they, you know, they'll say,
well, we hire so and such or whatever.
I go, what what how does your company presentitself?
You know, do I look at your your your, not onlyyour CEOs, but your management and and whatever
case maybe, and do I see ethnically diverse,individuals?
(38:20):
And I and I also ask a company to look at someof the terminology they use.
A lot of times, we'll talk about ethnicallydifferent, and I said different in comparison
to whom.
That's good points.
Right?
So we have to look at that.
And that's why I use ethnically diverse versusethnically different because when we talk about
We're looking at something that is the norm andeverything outside of that is something
(38:44):
different, which means we're still putting theEurocentric views as sort of the the top or the
main state and everything after that has to bejudged by by the eurocentric view.
So I go, what terminology are you using in inin your materials in in sort of how you present
yourself as a company in the training that youhave received.
(39:07):
Right?
So a lot of that then we we have to get intothe uncomfortable conversations, which a a lot
of times companies or organizations do not wantto do.
But if you're able to do that and start thatdiscussion, you can then start to, peel back.
And not only peel back.
(39:28):
I think it's, just being able to unravel someof these, these, these systems that have been
in place for a long time.
So it's it's not a one conversation thing.
It's something that is not gonna also happenovernight as well.
But as you start entering in theseuncomfortable, conversations, what you end up
(39:51):
having is the place that is going to be moreopen to have a ethnically diverse, individuals
and, and, and people, individuals within withinthe, within the organization, which means your
organization will be able then to reach out tomore people.
Which is then going to be increase yourproductivity.
(40:11):
So one will be get the other be get the other.
Right?
So attraction, because if you think of the, youknow, the millennials coming up and, you know,
all the the your talent more than likely isgonna be that that combination or ratio of you
know, ethnically diverse, you will get acombination of how are you gonna attract them?
And even if you do attract them, how are yougonna keep them?
(40:34):
Absolutely.
Right.
So that's it.
And, you know,
feeling uncomfortable in in in that setting.
You can you can get me, but how do you maintainme?
Right.
Thanks for sure.
You know, how do you maintain your client, orhow do you maintain your employee?
If I'm not feeling safe, in in in my workplace.
I don't know how long I'm gonna stay there for.
(40:55):
And if I am staying there, how productive am I,in a space where I don't feel safe or I don't
feel comfortable?
Well, I think, you know, you made a a valid,valid point that if I'm stifling, as any human
being, and we know this as a psychologist and apsychotherapist, that eventually that stuff has
to it has to find a way out Right?
(41:16):
You know, so suppression will take forms inmore arbitrations, more conflict in the
workplace, more lost days, incidental absences,harassment, all those things that are the
metrics that you look for, how productive areyou at at work, and your bottom line is gonna
be on the increase and just from going throughsomething as simple as, simple but not easy.
(41:40):
How what does it take to meet every individualsafe at work regardless of what background
they're coming from.
Absolutely.
And then again, a lot of times from a corporateviewpoint, when we talk about long of
productivity, the biggest thing thatcontributes to loss of productivity is mental
illness.
So if your workplace or your workforce is notwell, anxiety, depression, those types of
(42:04):
things, that is going to directly impact yourbottom line.
So it is, it is of the utmost importance notfor you to do diversity training and, and all
of these types of things, but to address, youknow, ethnic diversity within your workplace.
For sure.
And I think it's, you know, from a perspective,looking at mental wellness.
(42:25):
And I also say it's mental wellness all the wayup to, you know, potentially people that have
to go off because they're, you know, there'sdefinite psychiatric concerns But, really, we
know that if people are more connected, they'reable to recognize their stress response if
they're able to do that.
They're able to internally take responsibilityfor what they need to take out within care of
it within themselves.
If they're recognizing it bigger than them,they go to who they need to to get the
(42:48):
appropriate support so they could stay at work.
Right.
If all those things aren't in place, then, youknow, obviously, things are gonna fall down and
it's gonna impact, you know, what what it'scausing the company just overall.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So now I, I know you have a course coming up,which is a bit of a pivot.
(43:10):
So I want them just before we step off the, theelements on diversity, if that there's any,
managers or even C suite people that arelistening that are thinking, What should what
how do I decide where we are and if I couldmake an impact, what would be one thing that
they could do or, you know, to be able to kindof gauge where they are as a company.
(43:34):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, a lotof times, a lot of times, I think organizations
pull in a lot of stats.
A lot because you're always looking atstatistics and always looking at, you know,
where your company where your company is atthis point in time, how productive it is the is
(43:59):
the company.
So a lot of times, the numbers
Yeah.
Themselves do not lie.
Yeah.
And if you're noticing, for example, that yourcompany your company's statistics are stagnant,
or or not necessarily growing exponentially,there could be a clue there in regards to,
(44:21):
productivity and the culture, or, you know,checking the pulse of your your your department
because is it just that, you know, Is it onefor one numbers, or is there something going on
here where you have to check the wellness ofyour, of your group, of your team?
(44:46):
Yeah.
So a lot of times, the first place to go is isand again, a lot of times managers will do this
is sort of looking at the statistics, sort of,productivity of the company.
And the productivity will speak volumes.
And if it's just that, okay, is it flat?
Is there is there actually a decline inproductivity?
And it's not necessarily that you have to, youknow, try to get forced them to do more versus
(45:09):
what check the pulse or how sick is is the, isthe is the group.
Is there a is there a unwillingness for lack ofa better way of saying it Is there something
that is unwell with the team that we canaddress, that we can address a bit further?
And then from there, Again, stats and all ofthat is one thing.
(45:33):
A lot of times, from what I have seen with withsome of the clients that I've worked with
there's an absolute disconnect betweenmanagement and staff.
Mhmm.
And that absolute disconnect, really causes,again, a lot of the, the lack of productivity.
So a lot of it is then gonna be how do managersconnect And it's human connection.
(45:55):
It's not just, okay, you're not meeting thesenumbers or whatever the case may be.
A lot of it is human connection.
Yeah.
You know, what is going on?
You know, how are you faring?
How are you feeling?
What are some of the things that you may needindividually to thrive?
So it's taking a pulse of your not only justthe organization, but even if we go to the
(46:16):
management team level, being able to be able totake that pulse.
And from there, open up the dialogue to providewhatever is needed for that, that, that
individual or the team, to allow the team toget well.
A lot of it is, like, a a a sickness and how tosickness and wellness kind of, kind of.
(46:38):
I don't feel
like metrics is, like, from early interventionall the way up to prevention all the way up to
keeping somebody at work, which, you know,they, you know, we know with, long term
disability claims, you know, if you don'tmanage people well and the stressors, you know,
it's not always that they've had it in theirfamily.
It it may be that some people have But if ifpeople aren't able to, to, you know, get what
(47:03):
they need, so they, they, they implodesomewhere.
Exactly.
And I think also managers have to look atturnover.
Yeah.
I think that's a huge thing as well.
And a lot of times, they don't you have to lookat your statistics in terms of how how many
times has your has your team or your staffturned over?
(47:24):
If there is a high turnover rate, you may alsohave to look at the the culture of your team.
And what is contributing to that as well.
And again, they're they're in and of itself maylie some of the answers in regards to, you
know, what do I need to, to, to put in, put inplace to decrease that turnover.
(47:50):
There's something here that is causing that.
What can I put into place to to, not onlyincrease productivity, but increase the
wellness of that workplace environment so thatyou have a lower instance of turnover?
Yeah.
That makes so much sense, Natasha, just kindawhat is your pulse?
And then based on just human connection again,you're gonna get some of the answers and then
(48:15):
know what you need to start applying so to tobe able to make change.
And, of course, change doesn't happenovernight.
Absolutely not.
But it's starting to take the steps necessary.
Absolutely.
So I know we need to, start wrapping up, but Iknow you do have a course coming up.
So I would would like you to tell people where,what it's, maybe what it's about and where they
(48:37):
can get ahold of you I'm sure companies andexecutives that are listening, would be quite
interested in reaching out to.
So if
you let
them know about your website, that would befantastic.
Okay.
So that's great.
So, I do have a course that's coming up.
It's an online course.
So anybody can, you know, can hop on and, andbe able to participate.
(48:57):
So the course is called reclaiming yoursuperwoman, and it's how to find your voice
after divorce.
So the reason that this course came about waspart of it is is sort of my personal journey as
well, going through a divorce myself.
And having difficulty initially, how do Inavigate that?
But then how do I get to a space of finding myauthentic voice?
(49:19):
And being able to to speak my own truth in themidst of that without feeling stifled.
So in regards to that.
The the course, again, it's online.
We're gonna be starting it in April, 1st weekin April.
My, my info is, my email is in full, info atdoctor Natashawilliams.com.
(49:41):
People can feel free to reach out to me there.
And from there, what would I usually do iswe'll book a 30 minute consultation in which
we'll start to discuss a little bit more ofwhat some of your issues are and what you
would, ideally like to see happen in regardsto, being able to reclaim your voice and being
able to to move forward.
When you look at things such as the corporatelease that a lot of women have in regards to
(50:06):
themselves and particularly in a, in arelationship and if the relationship is is sort
of unraveling.
And what needs to happen from a clinicalperspective.
I also use a bit of faith as well.
So it's a clinical perspective faith in my ownpersonal experience that have been curated into
into this online course to help a woman findher voice and be able to live her own life and
(50:30):
her own truth.
No compromise.
So where has a lot of this compromising comefrom?
Where has a lot of these poor beliefs andvalues come from?
And how do we get to a space where we can startchallenging that?
But then also being able to, what I usuallycall the term how do you become comfortable
with being uncomfortable?
Mhmm.
And a lot of times, we we run away fromdiscomfort and what we do is then compromise.
(50:56):
And then we're unable to be there often toself.
So how do we get to a space in which we canthen be comfortable with being uncomfortable
and be able to then change the trajectory ofour lives, to be able to then walk in our own
truth, no compromise.
So I'll I'll do a 30 minute consultation.
And then from there, I, anyone would be able toregister for the master class.
(51:20):
And it's a 4 week introductory math masterclass.
And from there, you would then be eligible forI do have a more intensive 3 month 6 month
program as well once you complete theintroductory master class.
And if you wanna continue to work with me, tocontinue along that journey.
Awesome.
Well, what I will do, for, Natasha is I willinclude a link.
(51:43):
So you can just check the bottom of, thepodcast, and there will be a link that you can
just go right on.
And, you know, it sounds like an amazing,amazing class.
And the opportunity to work with you as aclinical psychologist with all the things that
you're bringing with you, along with the faithbased element to things having been there
myself.
You know, you did that importance of spendingthat time taking care of yourself when you're
(52:08):
going through something like this is is very,very key.
So, again, thanks so much, Natasha, forspending your time.
Thank you so much, Roxanne, for having me.
I appreciate it.
Awesome.
So for for for leaders, I want you to reallythink about, how are you being aware of the
needs of who is in front of you?
When in any realm, obviously today we'retalking a bit about, diversity, but just
(52:34):
overall, how are you ensuring that you know whois in front of you and addressing what their
needs are.
Like Natasha said, if we feel safe at work, we,we are completely on, and we're gonna be most
productive because I feel safe and secure.
And I'm just gonna relish my space because Igenerally all of us wanna do really, really
(52:55):
well at work.
So to keep that in mind, and if that'ssomething that's not occurring, to start to ask
yourself, What is it that I need to do to toget connected to the pulse of what's needed
within my organization that impacts the bottomline?
So again, thanks again for tuning in, and we'llchat with you soon.
If you're needing more information on me, youneed to go to roxanderhodge.com, and, we can
(53:18):
connect.
Take care, everyone.
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne visit
Roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
(53:39):
We'll see you next time.
An authentic living with Roxanne.
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