November 1, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge and Bernie Dyme delve into the importance of authentic leadership and mental well-being in the workplace. They discuss strategies for promoting mental health, fostering an honest culture, understanding employee needs, and adapting trauma response during a pandemic. The episode concludes with insights on Employee Assistance Programs as a hub for resources and preventative support.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
(00:37):
Our interview last week was so good that wedecided to turn it into a 2 part series.
If you missed last week, you'll find the linkin the show notes.
It's not mandatory that you listen, but wewanna make sure that you don't miss out on this
amazing conversation.
You talked about some strategies, and I I likeit.
(00:57):
So if you have lived experience, if you've had,you know, like I say, normal things that would
cause you to need to speak to someone to getthat support.
Right?
I often say it's start you said it starts witha leader.
Right?
So we want, like, you know, I talk aboutauthentic leadership.
We want that leader to have an awareness thatHere she's living their truth, in this space,
(01:21):
in this time around mental well-being.
So telling their story, What are some othersteps that leaders could consider taking to to
create that more of that, that alignment withperceptions about a mental health and reality
in some of these workplaces.
I'm gonna talk about these top tier EAPs andhow important that is EAPs are are have been a
(01:45):
little they've been beaten down a little bit,and that's because I think the partnership,
EAPs in a vacuum don't do well.
Nothing in a vacuum does well.
It needs to be a partnership.
So working with leadership and EAPs to reallykind of develop and it starts with a strategic
approach to doing this.
And in some cases, it's really about coachingthe leaders on how to be comfortable with that.
(02:08):
Or if they're not comfortable, which is fine,having other members of leadership team talk
about these things.
But leaders have to show up As you say,authentic leadership is about showing up.
When I walk down the hall of my organization, Iknow that's that doesn't happen that often
anymore.
But when I walk down the hall of myorganization, I know that people are watching,
(02:31):
and I may have just had something bad to eatthat's giving me a little indigestion, but if
I'm making faces, everybody is thinking thehorrible things are happening.
So being available, being there showing up towork in an authentic way is really important.
The other is figuring out ways to communicatewith people, not lies, not minimize, you know,
(02:52):
being able to sort of stand up in front of thegroup and say, here's what's going on.
To, react to questions in an honest, directway.
The worst thing you can do is overpromisesomething when, you know, when you can't really
give the right answer, that's not a good thing.
It's always better to say, you know what?
I don't know, but I'm gonna find out and thenmake sure you find out and get back to them.
(03:16):
So creating a communications plan, some kind ofan employee engagement plan, Right?
So in our company, when this started, I don'teven remember how many months ago, we
instituted a 15 to 30 minute every other week,town hall meeting for all of our employees.
Some of those meetings are merely sayingEverything's fine.
(03:39):
Nothing's going on.
15 minutes were in and out of there.
They asked it gave gave people an opportunityto ask questions.
Here's the irony.
We never, in all of our history ofperspectives, had a 95 to 100% participation.
At these meetings, which are also We wereaveraging 95 to 98%.
(03:59):
People are interested, and they wanna know thatyou're gonna be able talk to them as leaders
and that they're gonna be able to have accessto you.
The other thing is to try and figure out in inany way you can to simulate activities that
normally would occur in your workplace,virtual.
So how do you do that?
We have virtual cocktail allowance.
(04:21):
Right?
We don't advocate drinking, but we do advocategetting together and everybody's in their home.
Just, you know, and we break into breakouts.
Is it perfect far from it, but we're keepingconnected.
We have actually, we have a committee, a socialcommittee that came up with a topic called the
water cooler.
Meetings.
And that's just basically where every week forabout 15 minutes, people can sort of come to
(04:45):
the water cooler.
Right?
It's a digital or an electronic one.
We had a a a florist delivered to all of ouremployees these, terrariums.
I don't have mine anymore because I have ablack thumb, but they literally then we took it
out of the box They had an expert Flores teachus how to do it.
(05:05):
It was a lot of fun.
It was connect.
So those kinds of things, mixing fun with theability to share your feelings, some kind of a
strategic reentry or engagement plan, those arethings that make a huge deal difference.
And the other is to really, ensure that you'repromoting mental wellness, mental health, and
(05:27):
wellness.
I think part of the way to get out of thisstigma of mental health is, especially now,
we're talking about it being national,worldwide, su suicide awareness day, tomorrow
is is that, you know, we make it okay forpeople to talk about.
There are so many misconceptions that If youtalk about suicidal cause people to to do it,
(05:48):
that is not true.
There's research that categorically shows that,in fact, the opposite is true.
That it gives people more comfort to talk aboutit, and they're more likely to get help.
Same thing happens in general.
So I I just think dealing with mental healthmental wellness, we want a mentally fit
workplace, a place where not where peoplearen't perfect, but where people feel
(06:11):
comfortable not being verbal.
You know, that that old saying that's goingaround, and I think it's wonderful is we've
gotta train everybody in our organizations thatit's okay to not be okay.
Absolutely.
And, you know, the thing is I I think thatthat's that permissiveness to to discuss
things.
Right?
Like, you know, when you're going throughchange and we've been in flux.
(06:33):
We we're enrolling change.
Right?
So let's talk about what's uncomfortable.
Let's talk about what we're not doing well.
What's You know, we're gonna talk it.
We yes.
We can talk about the champions and who's donewhat.
But what is it that you did kind of poorly thatyou've learned from?
And how could you share that to say, you knowwhat?
I realized?
Wow.
You know, when I haven't slept, let's say, andhow many people are having problems with
(06:55):
sleeping right now?
Absolutely.
You know, what how do I kinda take care ofmyself through the day, even though I've still
got my 8, 10 hour day, how do I kinda how am Ican I be gentle and kind you know, to be able
to say, well, you know, I'm going to maybe beoff camera a little bit more or maybe I'm going
to you know, have my meetings in quiet?
(07:16):
I'm gonna come back in and out.
So just sharing those things, I think, is sohelpful And I think as the leader does that
more, and that, you know, and they see when theleader says, you know, I've I haven't had that
kind of, good week, and this is kind of whatI've been doing just care for myself, I always
talk about is how is the leader showing ordemonstrating his or her capacity to understand
(07:38):
that I'm under massive pressure I generally ampretty good, but, you know, what I what I've
learned this year or this month is, wow.
I need to do this, this, this, more or this abit less.
And in that sharing, like you said, normalizingit, I think then people go, wow.
The CEO just went through that.
(07:59):
And he or she is sharing this, how amazing doesthat get?
And that modeling and that that, you know,sharing what people start to recognize is if if
I'm a human being and my CEO or my seniorleaders of human being and my manager's a
normal person, it's okay for me to also share.
Absolutely.
And I think, you know, that's another thingthat
(08:20):
I think we need to really change quickly isthis whole notion that the leader has to be
above it all.
Right?
And and, you know, look, I don't I wannaadvocate.
I I don't wanna sound like I'm saying, just letit all hang out.
I'm not.
I think there is decorum, and I think there areboundaries that all leaders have to think.
But you know what?
Being more, being genuine, being somewhat selfdisclosing, there's nothing wrong with that.
(08:45):
In fact, that gets people much more invested inengagement.
So you're absolutely right.
And it's it's it's one thing to read from ascript and say dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot,
dot, dot.
But if the words don't match the deeds, peopleare not stupid.
People know that.
People know when you're lying to them.
You know, I do a lot of work with labor.
I love labor because if you lie to labor, Ifyou are the union guys, they've got you smelled
(09:08):
out right away.
Oh my goodness.
So do they ever they they have the the radaroff.
They sure do.
So you know what?
You can and you can disagree with that, butdon't ever lie.
And I think that's you know, look, I there havebeen leaders.
The best examples of leaders are during crisistimes.
I mean, anybody can be a good leader whenthings are going well.
(09:28):
During crisis times is when really good leadersreally come to the fore.
You know, you think about some of the work thatgood to great, Jim Jim Collins.
But, you know, when he talked about what hecalled the level 5 leader, These are people who
were real, who were authentic, and who alsodemanded, you know, that people were
(09:49):
accountable.
So we hold other people accountable as leaders.
We need to allow ourselves to be heldaccountable too.
So I agree with everything you're sayingRoxanne about, you know, people have to show up
as leaders at work really being authentic.
Their authentic selves are it's a hard thing todefine, but it's a critical thing to define.
But what I love about what you weren't yoursighted.
And in my book, that's coming out in the fallon it's basically return on relationships, how
(10:14):
to, you know, work how to amplify howauthentically this can amplify resilience on
their teams.
And I talk a little bit about transparent seerecognition, you know, problem solving, all
those things, but not just that the leader,okay, the leader has to assess his or her
skills, but is how is the team perceiving theleader in those areas?
(10:34):
And then going through different trainings,it's ongoing kind of analysis.
I often say, right?
We all know performance evaluation time.
Everybody covers and get that one objectivethat you have to kinda meet.
But, really, why is it just it has to be onetime a year?
Because we expect optimal.
We know about presenteeism where you get 65% ofproductivity, but if we're constantly talking
(10:57):
about things, there's the opportunities tounderstand what are my expectations of you as
my leader and vice versa.
What are your expectations of the frontlineperson for the leader ongoing, and, you know,
the more we open up that channel, then peopleare able to share and be more collaborative
with an with an overall outcome in mind.
Sometimes you're gonna miss the mark.
(11:19):
Absolutely.
But at least you'll have opportunities todiscuss why you've missed the mark.
I haven't said it any better, Roxanne.
You know, I mean, leaders are called out tomake hundreds of decisions every day.
And usually, they don't have the time to go,well, let me think about this for a week.
Right?
They're making snap decisions.
It's really tough to do that.
And, you know, when you're making a 100decisions in a day, if you're getting 700,
(11:42):
you're doing really well, but those are the 30%of the time that you fail It's okay.
And if you yourself can't allow yourself to sayit's okay to fail, but what if I learned from
this failure?
How can I move on?
I guarantee you other people that work with youand for you are not gonna be able to do it
either.
I mean, people look at you as a leader, we havean an extra obligation to understand where
(12:08):
people are at and to make it easier for them.
To be transparent with us too.
So don't walk into a room and go, I'm gonna behonest with you.
I expect you all to be honest.
They're just not gonna do So they will do thatmore if you've demonstrated your ability to do
that if you've shown your vulnerability aswell.
They're more likely to be vulnerable.
(12:29):
So you you're you're absolutely right.
And we're all reading each other.
Right?
You're reading, I'm reading your body language,your mirror neurons, we're calibrating.
We know this stuff.
People are, you know, intuitively.
That's how we're wired.
So we're constantly we're judging.
We're we're you know, we're kind of adaptingour behaviors, those types of things.
So I think, the more that authentic that peoplecome to work I like to your point.
(12:53):
Yes.
I'm not talking that you're gonna it's notgonna be verbal diarrhea, but being aware that
there's a certain you know, expectations ofyourself as the leader.
And when you set that poise, you have certainexpectations.
And in turn, you know, a flow that you wantthings to go in.
And then you like you said, that overallcorporate culture gets defined versus kind of
(13:15):
thinking it's gonna happen in those quarterlymeetings and a 1 year retreat, and we're all
good, and we're gonna wrap it up, and we'regonna go off again.
We know that so much more.
And I I think that's the beauty the thepositive of the pandemic that has brought to
light is that, okay, transparency has been aconcept we've been talking about, but this is
really put our feet to the fire in that we itit we have no choice now but to be transparent.
(13:39):
If not, you know, people are using their feetto to leave and you're losing your talent.
You're not able to, you know, attract goodtalent.
You're not able to retain them.
And then ultimately, keep the people productiveas well.
And that's the main thing.
And right now, you're absolutely right.
We are in an employee's market, and that'llchange.
It shifts back and forth, but employees andthis is the other thing I think leaders need to
(14:03):
realize.
It's not just about the money, especially foryounger work I'm not saying money is
unimportant.
Everybody wants more money.
They wanna earn more.
They wanna grow.
I get that, but it's really about theorganization And what you do during these
crisis times as a leader is gonna set the stagefor your future.
And believe me, people talk, especially nowwith social media.
(14:25):
So think about yourself as getting Yelp reviewsall the time, and it's gonna go on.
So, you know, if if you're trying to start overand create a culture that's been negative now,
you're really pushing a boulder uphill.
It can be done, but it's gonna take some work.
Really, it's important to use this time toreally create a culture of caring of
(14:47):
transparency of safety, of of, you know, ofcollegiality those things are what people in
the future will make use as decision makers foreither staying, leaving, or going to your
place.
More than a couple of extra bucks.
We've we've seen this in some of ourorganizations where people have been recruited
(15:09):
away because there is a labor shortage rightnow.
And they've been asked for more money.
And in many situations, they've come back totheir employers and said, look, I don't wanna
leave.
They were offering me this ridiculous moment.
I'll take a little less, can I stay?
Cause I really like this organization.
I think that says something, and I think that'sreally you know, it it you know, you said it
(15:30):
about the job performance evaluation too.
That one shot deal is almost bad because itgives leaders and managers an excuse to not do
what they need to do all year round.
Exit interviews to me are the same thing.
I always ask when somebody says, let's do anexit interview.
I always say, well, isn't that a little late?
You know, shouldn't we have had this interviewbeforehand?
(15:50):
Shouldn't we we should not, as leaders, besurprised when somebody's leaving us?
We really should
We should know.
You know, I I wanna ask you one thing.
I know I'm we're almost at time, but I I'mcurious.
This is my concept in my brain, not living inthe EAP world.
As much anymore.
You know, when traumatic responses, you havetrauma, response teams, I, you know, when I my
(16:14):
early career, I would go out as part traumateam.
So trauma happens within 24 hours.
You get in.
You educate.
You educate.
You educate 72 hours.
You do a debriefing.
And then you identify kind of what are thefacts, what's happening.
With the pandemic, right?
We've been in an ongoing need for traumaresponses.
(16:37):
So from a bigger level, how does that kind ofimpact companies now, right?
Because They've had they've had to educate,educate, educate.
They've had to look at employee.
Well, virtually, connect with employees enoughto identify who needs more support.
(16:58):
So after or I shouldn't say after because toyour point that this is not gonna end.
How does companies think about that?
We've been in a traumatic, I'm gonna see Stancefor well over 2 years, and it's not going away
as we can see as we get into the fall with someof the numbers with the different strains
coming.
(17:18):
What's what recommendations would you give fromthat frame to to leaders?
That's a great question.
So I I think it begins with I think what you'retalking about, and for the benefit of your your
listeners and and viewers, so we're talkingabout critical incidents response right, where
something occurs at the workplace, whichrequires an intervention that's almost
(17:42):
organization.
Somebody's on-site, unfortunately, becausepeople don't go on-site anymore, a lot of these
are being done by Zoom.
By the way, it can be done and has been doneeffectively.
I think though that those are related to orresponses to traumas or incidents, that people
have have had a reaction to.
I think we have to define trauma verydifferent.
(18:03):
I think we have to broaden the definition oftrauma.
So, again, I'm gonna go back to what these toptier EAPs do.
Right?
The cops you're reusing and not the ones whereyou check the box, these are the ones that are
basically saying, look, we're here.
If you're having an issue, call us We'd rathersay, you know what?
That doesn't require a group response.
In most cases, it probably will, but call us.
(18:26):
Let's have a conversation about that.
So we've been doing a lot more of that.
And and what traditionally was we go on-site,we meet groups, we do education, now is a
little different.
We may be doing with 2 or 3 people.
We may be going on-site or doing a Zoom thing.
We may be doing these on an ongoing basis.
(18:47):
We have we have a lot of health careinstitutions.
We've developed a program using technologywhere These are people who are working on COVID
units.
And so they don't have the time to sort of sitdown, make an appointment, or talk by phone, or
get to a computer, So we now have text basedstuff that is a way to just do in the moment
counseling.
I would consider that response to trauma.
(19:10):
We also talk about professionals who areworking on this stuff and say, you know what?
People who are exposed to repeated trauma needhelp.
And I don't care if they say I'm okay.
I do this all the time.
You see this in the news all the time.
If you want people to burn out, don't respondto them and don't be proactive.
If you want them, however, not to burn out,create a proactive problem that requires them.
(19:34):
To take time on, that requires them to speakwith people, that requires them to meet in a
group, and use your top tier EAP to do that.
I don't know if that if that exists.
No.
No.
I I love it.
I love it because I I often thought.
Right?
How do you extrapolate, you know, that concept?
Because It's it's not going away.
You people still have to go back to those COVIDunits.
(19:55):
People still, you know, have just lost a familymember.
Somebody family member is in the hospital orthey're recovering or somebody's isolating
because
somebody in school that
it's going on.
It's like you know, it's not plate, like, theplates of the circus.
It's constantly.
It's it's been twirling and twirling.
And you look over here and it's, oh, it'sslowing down.
I gotta look over here, and it's we've been inthat state.
(20:17):
So that's what my concern was, what, thinkingabout the, you know, what is it that's being
done, and it's good to hear that the top tierEAPs I'm not the assessor refer and go on to,
you know, get 3 sessions.
I'm talking about the re real core fundamentalpeople that are saying, what change do you
need?
How can I support you and how can I beavailable really 247, which is really what I
(20:41):
would see that people would need on an ongoingbasis, you know, to to to to get through this
time?
And I know we're running out of time.
We're out of time, but let me just say one lastthing.
Your EAP should be a hub.
It should be the place that everybody goes forto when they need a resource counseling
childcare, elder care, any kind of wellnessresources.
(21:02):
And you're reading a lot about these singlepoint solutions where you know, you can get CBT
on on on on your phone or, artificialintelligence.
I'm not against any of those things.
I just feel like sometimes what you're doing isyou're you know, what do they say if, you know,
to a hammer, everything everything looks like anail or vice versa.
I always get that wrong.
(21:22):
We're we kinda see ourselves as being, ashaving a quiver with all of those things in
there.
But when you call me, Roxanne, I'm gonna tryand figure out what quickly, what you need,
what many resources you might need, and thenI'm gonna get you that that's where your top
tier EAPs are.
We're not a 1800 assessment referral.
I I could get my my son who owns a floralbusiness to do that.
(21:46):
That's not what we're looking for.
These are people that can help sort of modify.
So that's, I think, where EAP is coming in.
Right.
And because, you know, prevention is soimportant.
And I think we really, really that's where someof the assess and refer, companies really
unfortunately, didn't help the field ofbehavioral health because we re we recognized
(22:08):
Yes, it's 20 fourseven, but people are forpeople to actually pick up the phone, Bernie,
and you know this, and I know this.
It takes so much strength to be able to dothat.
And to say to them now, oh, by the way, that'sdone.
We don't, you know, we need to send yousomewhere else.
That's hard for any human being to be able todo to open up, say, I'm really struggling.
Oh, and by the way, oh, you're at your 3rdsession.
(22:29):
It's time to send you off, and we know that theat this point, that people would disconnect.
So I'm so glad to hear that that's availableand to for leaders to hear that when you are
making choices to make the choice to decideokay, where can I offer support ongoing?
Because the earlier you get people on apreventative level, you're gonna you're gonna
to keep people.
(22:50):
You're gonna they're gonna be emotionallyhealthier.
They're gonna get support.
They're gonna learn how to communicate.
They're if it's trust management that's neededwithin your organization, all those things are
gonna be identified under one umbrella.
So, these kind of services are something that,you know, I'm sure through this time has, you
know, been invaluable for, companies.
And I would say most companies need to geteducated about what are they buying to support
(23:15):
people's mental health right now?
Amen.
Amen.
You are absolutely correct.
Thank you, Roxanne.
You said So I would love you and I, like Isaid, when Bernie and I met, we both belong to
Forbes.
I said, and I listened to one of trainings.
I said, oh my goodness.
I have to meet this man, and I knew we wouldhave an amazing conversation.
So, Bernie, for anyone listening, anyleadership leadership teams, or anyone, looking
(23:37):
to, you know, explore things for further withthe AP services, or the organizational
consulting tool, everyone where they can reachyou.
Sure.
So you can always go to our websitewww.perspectivesltd.com.
I'm available at BSD.
That's Bob sam Dine@perspectasltd.com, pleasefeel free to reach out with an email, and I'll
(24:02):
be glad to answer any questions you might have.
And and if we can help you, great.
If not, I'll be glad to tie you up with aresource that can because I really do feel
passionate about people and organizations andleaders doing the right thing for their
employees.
It really, you know, it's gonna make a lot moresense in the long and and that's what that's
what I've always wanted to do.
And I'm I've been very blessed to be able to.
(24:24):
So I hope that helps, Roxanne.
Thanks so much.
So for anybody you're listing out there, ifyou're a leader, share, you know, even if it's
something that you may think is insignificant.
And, you know, if you're needing, moreinformation on authentic leadership and
resilience for your teams.
Please connect with me.
Just go to chat with roxanne.com and book acall to meet with me.
(24:45):
And, again, Bernie, thanks so much again foryour time.
And for everyone, hang in there, and we'll talkto you next week.
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living withRoxanne.
Create the space for positive healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
(25:08):
We'll see you next time on authentic livingwith Roxanne.
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
(00:37):
Our interview last week was so good that wedecided to turn it into a 2 part series.
If you missed last week, you'll find the linkin the show notes.
It's not mandatory that you listen, but wewanna make sure that you don't miss out on this
amazing conversation.
You talked about some strategies, and I I likeit.
(00:57):
So if you have lived experience, if you've had,you know, like I say, normal things that would
cause you to need to speak to someone to getthat support.
Right?
I often say it's start you said it starts witha leader.
Right?
So we want, like, you know, I talk aboutauthentic leadership.
We want that leader to have an awareness thatHere she's living their truth, in this space,
(01:21):
in this time around mental well-being.
So telling their story, What are some othersteps that leaders could consider taking to to
create that more of that, that alignment withperceptions about a mental health and reality
in some of these workplaces.
I'm gonna talk about these top tier EAPs andhow important that is EAPs are are have been a
(01:45):
little they've been beaten down a little bit,and that's because I think the partnership,
EAPs in a vacuum don't do well.
Nothing in a vacuum does well.
It needs to be a partnership.
So working with leadership and EAPs to reallykind of develop and it starts with a strategic
approach to doing this.
And in some cases, it's really about coachingthe leaders on how to be comfortable with that.
(02:08):
Or if they're not comfortable, which is fine,having other members of leadership team talk
about these things.
But leaders have to show up As you say,authentic leadership is about showing up.
When I walk down the hall of my organization, Iknow that's that doesn't happen that often
anymore.
But when I walk down the hall of myorganization, I know that people are watching,
(02:31):
and I may have just had something bad to eatthat's giving me a little indigestion, but if
I'm making faces, everybody is thinking thehorrible things are happening.
So being available, being there showing up towork in an authentic way is really important.
The other is figuring out ways to communicatewith people, not lies, not minimize, you know,
(02:52):
being able to sort of stand up in front of thegroup and say, here's what's going on.
To, react to questions in an honest, directway.
The worst thing you can do is overpromisesomething when, you know, when you can't really
give the right answer, that's not a good thing.
It's always better to say, you know what?
I don't know, but I'm gonna find out and thenmake sure you find out and get back to them.
(03:16):
So creating a communications plan, some kind ofan employee engagement plan, Right?
So in our company, when this started, I don'teven remember how many months ago, we
instituted a 15 to 30 minute every other week,town hall meeting for all of our employees.
Some of those meetings are merely sayingEverything's fine.
(03:39):
Nothing's going on.
15 minutes were in and out of there.
They asked it gave gave people an opportunityto ask questions.
Here's the irony.
We never, in all of our history ofperspectives, had a 95 to 100% participation.
At these meetings, which are also We wereaveraging 95 to 98%.
(03:59):
People are interested, and they wanna know thatyou're gonna be able talk to them as leaders
and that they're gonna be able to have accessto you.
The other thing is to try and figure out in inany way you can to simulate activities that
normally would occur in your workplace,virtual.
So how do you do that?
We have virtual cocktail allowance.
(04:21):
Right?
We don't advocate drinking, but we do advocategetting together and everybody's in their home.
Just, you know, and we break into breakouts.
Is it perfect far from it, but we're keepingconnected.
We have actually, we have a committee, a socialcommittee that came up with a topic called the
water cooler.
Meetings.
And that's just basically where every week forabout 15 minutes, people can sort of come to
(04:45):
the water cooler.
Right?
It's a digital or an electronic one.
We had a a a florist delivered to all of ouremployees these, terrariums.
I don't have mine anymore because I have ablack thumb, but they literally then we took it
out of the box They had an expert Flores teachus how to do it.
(05:05):
It was a lot of fun.
It was connect.
So those kinds of things, mixing fun with theability to share your feelings, some kind of a
strategic reentry or engagement plan, those arethings that make a huge deal difference.
And the other is to really, ensure that you'repromoting mental wellness, mental health, and
(05:27):
wellness.
I think part of the way to get out of thisstigma of mental health is, especially now,
we're talking about it being national,worldwide, su suicide awareness day, tomorrow
is is that, you know, we make it okay forpeople to talk about.
There are so many misconceptions that If youtalk about suicidal cause people to to do it,
(05:48):
that is not true.
There's research that categorically shows that,in fact, the opposite is true.
That it gives people more comfort to talk aboutit, and they're more likely to get help.
Same thing happens in general.
So I I just think dealing with mental healthmental wellness, we want a mentally fit
workplace, a place where not where peoplearen't perfect, but where people feel
(06:11):
comfortable not being verbal.
You know, that that old saying that's goingaround, and I think it's wonderful is we've
gotta train everybody in our organizations thatit's okay to not be okay.
Absolutely.
And, you know, the thing is I I think thatthat's that permissiveness to to discuss
things.
Right?
Like, you know, when you're going throughchange and we've been in flux.
(06:33):
We we're enrolling change.
Right?
So let's talk about what's uncomfortable.
Let's talk about what we're not doing well.
What's You know, we're gonna talk it.
We yes.
We can talk about the champions and who's donewhat.
But what is it that you did kind of poorly thatyou've learned from?
And how could you share that to say, you knowwhat?
I realized?
Wow.
You know, when I haven't slept, let's say, andhow many people are having problems with
(06:55):
sleeping right now?
Absolutely.
You know, what how do I kinda take care ofmyself through the day, even though I've still
got my 8, 10 hour day, how do I kinda how am Ican I be gentle and kind you know, to be able
to say, well, you know, I'm going to maybe beoff camera a little bit more or maybe I'm going
to you know, have my meetings in quiet?
(07:16):
I'm gonna come back in and out.
So just sharing those things, I think, is sohelpful And I think as the leader does that
more, and that, you know, and they see when theleader says, you know, I've I haven't had that
kind of, good week, and this is kind of whatI've been doing just care for myself, I always
talk about is how is the leader showing ordemonstrating his or her capacity to understand
(07:38):
that I'm under massive pressure I generally ampretty good, but, you know, what I what I've
learned this year or this month is, wow.
I need to do this, this, this, more or this abit less.
And in that sharing, like you said, normalizingit, I think then people go, wow.
The CEO just went through that.
(07:59):
And he or she is sharing this, how amazing doesthat get?
And that modeling and that that, you know,sharing what people start to recognize is if if
I'm a human being and my CEO or my seniorleaders of human being and my manager's a
normal person, it's okay for me to also share.
Absolutely.
And I think, you know, that's another thingthat
(08:20):
I think we need to really change quickly isthis whole notion that the leader has to be
above it all.
Right?
And and, you know, look, I don't I wannaadvocate.
I I don't wanna sound like I'm saying, just letit all hang out.
I'm not.
I think there is decorum, and I think there areboundaries that all leaders have to think.
But you know what?
Being more, being genuine, being somewhat selfdisclosing, there's nothing wrong with that.
(08:45):
In fact, that gets people much more invested inengagement.
So you're absolutely right.
And it's it's it's one thing to read from ascript and say dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot,
dot, dot.
But if the words don't match the deeds, peopleare not stupid.
People know that.
People know when you're lying to them.
You know, I do a lot of work with labor.
I love labor because if you lie to labor, Ifyou are the union guys, they've got you smelled
(09:08):
out right away.
Oh my goodness.
So do they ever they they have the the radaroff.
They sure do.
So you know what?
You can and you can disagree with that, butdon't ever lie.
And I think that's you know, look, I there havebeen leaders.
The best examples of leaders are during crisistimes.
I mean, anybody can be a good leader whenthings are going well.
(09:28):
During crisis times is when really good leadersreally come to the fore.
You know, you think about some of the work thatgood to great, Jim Jim Collins.
But, you know, when he talked about what hecalled the level 5 leader, These are people who
were real, who were authentic, and who alsodemanded, you know, that people were
(09:49):
accountable.
So we hold other people accountable as leaders.
We need to allow ourselves to be heldaccountable too.
So I agree with everything you're sayingRoxanne about, you know, people have to show up
as leaders at work really being authentic.
Their authentic selves are it's a hard thing todefine, but it's a critical thing to define.
But what I love about what you weren't yoursighted.
And in my book, that's coming out in the fallon it's basically return on relationships, how
(10:14):
to, you know, work how to amplify howauthentically this can amplify resilience on
their teams.
And I talk a little bit about transparent seerecognition, you know, problem solving, all
those things, but not just that the leader,okay, the leader has to assess his or her
skills, but is how is the team perceiving theleader in those areas?
(10:34):
And then going through different trainings,it's ongoing kind of analysis.
I often say, right?
We all know performance evaluation time.
Everybody covers and get that one objectivethat you have to kinda meet.
But, really, why is it just it has to be onetime a year?
Because we expect optimal.
We know about presenteeism where you get 65% ofproductivity, but if we're constantly talking
(10:57):
about things, there's the opportunities tounderstand what are my expectations of you as
my leader and vice versa.
What are your expectations of the frontlineperson for the leader ongoing, and, you know,
the more we open up that channel, then peopleare able to share and be more collaborative
with an with an overall outcome in mind.
Sometimes you're gonna miss the mark.
(11:19):
Absolutely.
But at least you'll have opportunities todiscuss why you've missed the mark.
I haven't said it any better, Roxanne.
You know, I mean, leaders are called out tomake hundreds of decisions every day.
And usually, they don't have the time to go,well, let me think about this for a week.
Right?
They're making snap decisions.
It's really tough to do that.
And, you know, when you're making a 100decisions in a day, if you're getting 700,
(11:42):
you're doing really well, but those are the 30%of the time that you fail It's okay.
And if you yourself can't allow yourself to sayit's okay to fail, but what if I learned from
this failure?
How can I move on?
I guarantee you other people that work with youand for you are not gonna be able to do it
either.
I mean, people look at you as a leader, we havean an extra obligation to understand where
(12:08):
people are at and to make it easier for them.
To be transparent with us too.
So don't walk into a room and go, I'm gonna behonest with you.
I expect you all to be honest.
They're just not gonna do So they will do thatmore if you've demonstrated your ability to do
that if you've shown your vulnerability aswell.
They're more likely to be vulnerable.
(12:29):
So you you're you're absolutely right.
And we're all reading each other.
Right?
You're reading, I'm reading your body language,your mirror neurons, we're calibrating.
We know this stuff.
People are, you know, intuitively.
That's how we're wired.
So we're constantly we're judging.
We're we're you know, we're kind of adaptingour behaviors, those types of things.
So I think, the more that authentic that peoplecome to work I like to your point.
(12:53):
Yes.
I'm not talking that you're gonna it's notgonna be verbal diarrhea, but being aware that
there's a certain you know, expectations ofyourself as the leader.
And when you set that poise, you have certainexpectations.
And in turn, you know, a flow that you wantthings to go in.
And then you like you said, that overallcorporate culture gets defined versus kind of
(13:15):
thinking it's gonna happen in those quarterlymeetings and a 1 year retreat, and we're all
good, and we're gonna wrap it up, and we'regonna go off again.
We know that so much more.
And I I think that's the beauty the thepositive of the pandemic that has brought to
light is that, okay, transparency has been aconcept we've been talking about, but this is
really put our feet to the fire in that we itit we have no choice now but to be transparent.
(13:39):
If not, you know, people are using their feetto to leave and you're losing your talent.
You're not able to, you know, attract goodtalent.
You're not able to retain them.
And then ultimately, keep the people productiveas well.
And that's the main thing.
And right now, you're absolutely right.
We are in an employee's market, and that'llchange.
It shifts back and forth, but employees andthis is the other thing I think leaders need to
(14:03):
realize.
It's not just about the money, especially foryounger work I'm not saying money is
unimportant.
Everybody wants more money.
They wanna earn more.
They wanna grow.
I get that, but it's really about theorganization And what you do during these
crisis times as a leader is gonna set the stagefor your future.
And believe me, people talk, especially nowwith social media.
(14:25):
So think about yourself as getting Yelp reviewsall the time, and it's gonna go on.
So, you know, if if you're trying to start overand create a culture that's been negative now,
you're really pushing a boulder uphill.
It can be done, but it's gonna take some work.
Really, it's important to use this time toreally create a culture of caring of
(14:47):
transparency of safety, of of, you know, ofcollegiality those things are what people in
the future will make use as decision makers foreither staying, leaving, or going to your
place.
More than a couple of extra bucks.
We've we've seen this in some of ourorganizations where people have been recruited
(15:09):
away because there is a labor shortage rightnow.
And they've been asked for more money.
And in many situations, they've come back totheir employers and said, look, I don't wanna
leave.
They were offering me this ridiculous moment.
I'll take a little less, can I stay?
Cause I really like this organization.
I think that says something, and I think that'sreally you know, it it you know, you said it
(15:30):
about the job performance evaluation too.
That one shot deal is almost bad because itgives leaders and managers an excuse to not do
what they need to do all year round.
Exit interviews to me are the same thing.
I always ask when somebody says, let's do anexit interview.
I always say, well, isn't that a little late?
You know, shouldn't we have had this interviewbeforehand?
(15:50):
Shouldn't we we should not, as leaders, besurprised when somebody's leaving us?
We really should
We should know.
You know, I I wanna ask you one thing.
I know I'm we're almost at time, but I I'mcurious.
This is my concept in my brain, not living inthe EAP world.
As much anymore.
You know, when traumatic responses, you havetrauma, response teams, I, you know, when I my
(16:14):
early career, I would go out as part traumateam.
So trauma happens within 24 hours.
You get in.
You educate.
You educate.
You educate 72 hours.
You do a debriefing.
And then you identify kind of what are thefacts, what's happening.
With the pandemic, right?
We've been in an ongoing need for traumaresponses.
(16:37):
So from a bigger level, how does that kind ofimpact companies now, right?
Because They've had they've had to educate,educate, educate.
They've had to look at employee.
Well, virtually, connect with employees enoughto identify who needs more support.
(16:58):
So after or I shouldn't say after because toyour point that this is not gonna end.
How does companies think about that?
We've been in a traumatic, I'm gonna see Stancefor well over 2 years, and it's not going away
as we can see as we get into the fall with someof the numbers with the different strains
coming.
(17:18):
What's what recommendations would you give fromthat frame to to leaders?
That's a great question.
So I I think it begins with I think what you'retalking about, and for the benefit of your your
listeners and and viewers, so we're talkingabout critical incidents response right, where
something occurs at the workplace, whichrequires an intervention that's almost
(17:42):
organization.
Somebody's on-site, unfortunately, becausepeople don't go on-site anymore, a lot of these
are being done by Zoom.
By the way, it can be done and has been doneeffectively.
I think though that those are related to orresponses to traumas or incidents, that people
have have had a reaction to.
I think we have to define trauma verydifferent.
(18:03):
I think we have to broaden the definition oftrauma.
So, again, I'm gonna go back to what these toptier EAPs do.
Right?
The cops you're reusing and not the ones whereyou check the box, these are the ones that are
basically saying, look, we're here.
If you're having an issue, call us We'd rathersay, you know what?
That doesn't require a group response.
In most cases, it probably will, but call us.
(18:26):
Let's have a conversation about that.
So we've been doing a lot more of that.
And and what traditionally was we go on-site,we meet groups, we do education, now is a
little different.
We may be doing with 2 or 3 people.
We may be going on-site or doing a Zoom thing.
We may be doing these on an ongoing basis.
(18:47):
We have we have a lot of health careinstitutions.
We've developed a program using technologywhere These are people who are working on COVID
units.
And so they don't have the time to sort of sitdown, make an appointment, or talk by phone, or
get to a computer, So we now have text basedstuff that is a way to just do in the moment
counseling.
I would consider that response to trauma.
(19:10):
We also talk about professionals who areworking on this stuff and say, you know what?
People who are exposed to repeated trauma needhelp.
And I don't care if they say I'm okay.
I do this all the time.
You see this in the news all the time.
If you want people to burn out, don't respondto them and don't be proactive.
If you want them, however, not to burn out,create a proactive problem that requires them.
(19:34):
To take time on, that requires them to speakwith people, that requires them to meet in a
group, and use your top tier EAP to do that.
I don't know if that if that exists.
No.
No.
I I love it.
I love it because I I often thought.
Right?
How do you extrapolate, you know, that concept?
Because It's it's not going away.
You people still have to go back to those COVIDunits.
(19:55):
People still, you know, have just lost a familymember.
Somebody family member is in the hospital orthey're recovering or somebody's isolating
because
somebody in school that
it's going on.
It's like you know, it's not plate, like, theplates of the circus.
It's constantly.
It's it's been twirling and twirling.
And you look over here and it's, oh, it'sslowing down.
I gotta look over here, and it's we've been inthat state.
(20:17):
So that's what my concern was, what, thinkingabout the, you know, what is it that's being
done, and it's good to hear that the top tierEAPs I'm not the assessor refer and go on to,
you know, get 3 sessions.
I'm talking about the re real core fundamentalpeople that are saying, what change do you
need?
How can I support you and how can I beavailable really 247, which is really what I
(20:41):
would see that people would need on an ongoingbasis, you know, to to to to get through this
time?
And I know we're running out of time.
We're out of time, but let me just say one lastthing.
Your EAP should be a hub.
It should be the place that everybody goes forto when they need a resource counseling
childcare, elder care, any kind of wellnessresources.
(21:02):
And you're reading a lot about these singlepoint solutions where you know, you can get CBT
on on on on your phone or, artificialintelligence.
I'm not against any of those things.
I just feel like sometimes what you're doing isyou're you know, what do they say if, you know,
to a hammer, everything everything looks like anail or vice versa.
I always get that wrong.
(21:22):
We're we kinda see ourselves as being, ashaving a quiver with all of those things in
there.
But when you call me, Roxanne, I'm gonna tryand figure out what quickly, what you need,
what many resources you might need, and thenI'm gonna get you that that's where your top
tier EAPs are.
We're not a 1800 assessment referral.
I I could get my my son who owns a floralbusiness to do that.
(21:46):
That's not what we're looking for.
These are people that can help sort of modify.
So that's, I think, where EAP is coming in.
Right.
And because, you know, prevention is soimportant.
And I think we really, really that's where someof the assess and refer, companies really
unfortunately, didn't help the field ofbehavioral health because we re we recognized
(22:08):
Yes, it's 20 fourseven, but people are forpeople to actually pick up the phone, Bernie,
and you know this, and I know this.
It takes so much strength to be able to dothat.
And to say to them now, oh, by the way, that'sdone.
We don't, you know, we need to send yousomewhere else.
That's hard for any human being to be able todo to open up, say, I'm really struggling.
Oh, and by the way, oh, you're at your 3rdsession.
(22:29):
It's time to send you off, and we know that theat this point, that people would disconnect.
So I'm so glad to hear that that's availableand to for leaders to hear that when you are
making choices to make the choice to decideokay, where can I offer support ongoing?
Because the earlier you get people on apreventative level, you're gonna you're gonna
to keep people.
(22:50):
You're gonna they're gonna be emotionallyhealthier.
They're gonna get support.
They're gonna learn how to communicate.
They're if it's trust management that's neededwithin your organization, all those things are
gonna be identified under one umbrella.
So, these kind of services are something that,you know, I'm sure through this time has, you
know, been invaluable for, companies.
And I would say most companies need to geteducated about what are they buying to support
(23:15):
people's mental health right now?
Amen.
Amen.
You are absolutely correct.
Thank you, Roxanne.
You said So I would love you and I, like Isaid, when Bernie and I met, we both belong to
Forbes.
I said, and I listened to one of trainings.
I said, oh my goodness.
I have to meet this man, and I knew we wouldhave an amazing conversation.
So, Bernie, for anyone listening, anyleadership leadership teams, or anyone, looking
(23:37):
to, you know, explore things for further withthe AP services, or the organizational
consulting tool, everyone where they can reachyou.
Sure.
So you can always go to our websitewww.perspectivesltd.com.
I'm available at BSD.
That's Bob sam Dine@perspectasltd.com, pleasefeel free to reach out with an email, and I'll
(24:02):
be glad to answer any questions you might have.
And and if we can help you, great.
If not, I'll be glad to tie you up with aresource that can because I really do feel
passionate about people and organizations andleaders doing the right thing for their
employees.
It really, you know, it's gonna make a lot moresense in the long and and that's what that's
what I've always wanted to do.
And I'm I've been very blessed to be able to.
(24:24):
So I hope that helps, Roxanne.
Thanks so much.
So for anybody you're listing out there, ifyou're a leader, share, you know, even if it's
something that you may think is insignificant.
And, you know, if you're needing, moreinformation on authentic leadership and
resilience for your teams.
Please connect with me.
Just go to chat with roxanne.com and book acall to meet with me.
(24:45):
And, again, Bernie, thanks so much again foryour time.
And for everyone, hang in there, and we'll talkto you next week.
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living withRoxanne.
Create the space for positive healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
(25:08):
We'll see you next time on authentic livingwith Roxanne.
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