June 26, 2025 • 39 mins
Join Roxanne Derhodge as she chats with Amy Chambers about leadership's impact on work culture. Amy shares insights from her career, emphasizing effective leadership qualities, personalized employee recognition, and self-awareness. They discuss the learning zone, the seven virtues of exceptional leaders, and the differences between managing and leading. Strategies to prevent burnout, maintain work-life balance, and create a life vision statement are explored, along with the pandemic's influence on work culture. Trust and psychological safety in remote work are also covered. Amy shares her current projects and future leadership outlook, concluding with key takeaways.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:40):
Everyone, it's Roxanne Durhodge.
Thanks for tuning in again to Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Today, have a colleague that's she's in the sunall the time.
She's in California.
That's Amy Chambers, and she chambers, sorry,and she's a
chambers,
she sorry, and she's a leadership expert.
So Amy, thanks so much for giving us your timetoday.
Thank you so much for having me, Roxanne.
(01:01):
Happy to be here.
Okay.
So let me tell you a little bit about her andthe full buy will be in the show notes.
She's an executive coach, life coach, aconsultant, and a motivational speaker.
She's been in the financial industry for wellover fifteen years.
She has two Amazon bestseller books.
The one that we're gonna focus a bit more ontoday is Virtues of Exceptional Leaders, and
(01:21):
that was released in February 2023.
The second one is Six Habits of PowerfulPeople.
She's done a lot of different things, alongwith she has a graduate degree from University
of Notre Dame, where she double majored inpolitical science and philosophy, MBA from USC,
and has done a lot in business.
And I let her tell you about that.
(01:42):
And what I picked up on is that she's ranlisten to this.
I'm thinking, like, the most I've done is a 10k.
She's done two thirty half marathons.
So if we have time, we'll talk about that.
And 12 full ones.
And she's originally from Buffalo, and I'm herein Ivory Falls, New York.
So, Amy, what a path you've taken to kind ofget here.
(02:04):
So tell us a little bit about the formalwanting to get into business, went to
traditional business school.
What was kind of the path that kind of led youalong the way to get where you are today?
I remember I was babysitting for this guy thatlived down the street from me when I was a
senior in high school, and he asked if thesummer after senior year I could babysit pretty
(02:27):
much every day, all day, he'd be working andhis wife was gonna go back and try to get a law
degree.
And I said, you know, mister Gold, I reallyneed to get, like, a real job.
Not that watching Jack and Jane isn'timportant, but I think I need something for my
college resume, and all my friends have jobsat, like, grocery stores or restaurants.
I I think I need to work for a company thatwould give me a paycheck, not just hand me
cash.
(02:47):
He says, oh, why don't you just come look atthe bank?
And I was like, the bank?
I didn't even know what he did professionally.
And turns out he was a district manager at Mand T Bank, which you're probably familiar
with.
And I said, oh, okay.
So I started as a teller.
I liked it.
Always a math fan and enjoyed talking topeople.
So I did that teller job all through college.
I would work at M and T on my summers when Icame home from college, on breaks, and then was
(03:10):
also doing that back at Notre Dame in Indiana.
And when I graduated from college, I wentthrough M and T's management leadership
development program, became a branch manager.
And I was thinking about going back to lawschool myself, but I realized the power we had
to change people's lives with advice and reallyjust helping people realize how in control they
were of their saving and their spending.
(03:32):
I fell in love with it.
So I continued on into the regional managerpath, ended up as a COO.
I was very proud of that.
But what really started to get me excited wasleadership.
Started realizing that sometimes two branchesat the bank would be down the street from each
other.
And in one situation, the employees were happy,they were thriving, they were getting promoted,
(03:54):
they were at the top of the sales reports andall the recognition reports.
And the other branch, very similarly situated,same demographics of their customers, really
nothing different externally, was having allsorts of problems.
Realized it came down to leadership.
That's always the factor.
And so I begged law school, continued on inbusiness, and I really wanted to understand
(04:15):
what are these conditions where employees dotheir very best work versus they're checked out
and they're looking for other jobs and theydon't like coming to work.
Yeah, I stayed to figure that all out and endedup falling in love with it.
So all because of Rich Gold saying, why don'tyou come work at the bank?
I spent twenty one
days in never know where that start's going tobe, right?
You never do know.
So when you kind of think of those twoenvironments, like you said, same philosophy,
(04:39):
same company, like you said, same area, whatwere some of the things that you start to
recognize that were some of the instrumentalthings that I'm going to assume you probably
ended up writing about in leadership?
Like what's some of the things thatfundamentally leaders need to learn early on in
their career?
Yeah.
Probably, if I could put it in a sentence, thebiggest thing I think that separates great
(05:02):
leaders from not so great leaders is that theyknow it's not about them.
When you lead people, it's about your team.
It's about others.
It's not about what you can do anymore.
It's about what you can help other people do.
And if you start there, every action you takeor every moment of your day changes.
And so a few things that I realized conditionswhere people do great work, they get feedback,
(05:24):
they get coaching, they get development, andnot just once a year at their performance
review, but all the time.
And they get feedback on the things that theysaid were most important to them.
Great leaders ask their employees, Hey, wheredo you want to be in five or ten years?
You know, what can I help you get better at?
And, okay, it's public speaking or it's gettingthis degree or certification.
We're going to put you in environments whereyou learn those kinds of things.
(05:45):
It's a real recognition of what someone'snatural talents are and also what their
interests are and saying, we're going to putpersonalized development plans together around
you.
And the second thing is, and you mentioned itwhen we were talking before, recognition and
encouragement.
People want to be seen.
They want to be noticed, they want to know thatthe work that they're doing is mattering and
(06:06):
making a difference.
And so great leaders take the time to say thankyou.
And I thought you did awesome earlier today.
And in that moment, whatever you did or saidwas exactly what we're looking for.
Please do that again.
And they make a routine or a pattern aroundthat.
Again, it's not just once a month or once aquarter, it's almost daily.
They're looking at what people are doing andtalking about it.
(06:26):
So those are some of the conditions wherepeople do great.
When that's not there, people just wither orsort of anguish.
Yeah.
And, you know, doing the research for my bookand also from my corporate kind of work in
wellness, what we found is that everybody wantsto be seen, but in different ways.
Right?
So if you're the type, you're like the one thatwants to be at the front of the pack kind of
(06:50):
thing, that's one thing.
But sometimes you have people that want therecognition as it can be soft and subtle, but
it's really about, you know, understanding whatis Amy reading and what seems to light her up
when she's done a good job.
Is there something that I can do?
It could be an email that nobody else knowsabout.
It could be that, you know, you get theperson's favorite Starbucks coffee card and you
(07:12):
drop it on their desk and kind of say thankyou.
And it's a subtlety of recognition versus thepeople that are the extroverts are always
speaking up or part of potentially the salesand marketing teams.
Sometimes the other people that are lessinvasive but instrumental, they're also looking
for certain things and they will never say whatthey need and you have to kind of figure it out
(07:34):
as a leader.
I wrote about that in my book and probably oneof the stories I use to illustrate this point.
I was working for U.
S.
Bank back while I was getting my MBA, and theyI made some sort of recognition event for a
quarter of great work.
And they took us out of our branches for awhole day, and it just turned into what felt to
me like a punishment.
They wanted us to all ride the bus together toa surprise location.
(07:57):
And so I drove.
I got up way earlier than I normally had todrove into LA when my branch was very close to
my house just to get bused back to the areawhere I was.
It was like 100 degrees.
No one told us to wear comfortable shoes.
We went to the Getty, and we were out there in,like, heels and suits because no one bothered
to say, hey.
This is actually a casual event.
So my feet were killing me.
And then they went took us to Phogo to Chow,and I don't eat meat.
(08:20):
And so now they wouldn't have known that, andit was a group event.
And some people, of course, loved it, but Ikind of I driving home that day, I thought I
had bring people in to cover my branch thatwould normally have been off because I couldn't
be there to cover my branch.
And now because I went to this thing, I alsohave to work Saturday because I need to give
them that Saturday off.
And so it resulted in me working more hours,getting up earlier.
(08:42):
I missed out on time to do MBA homework aftermy regular workday.
And it just kind of made me chuckle in that,like, there was no maybe forethought or asking
or dialog as to, hey, you guys have won thisthing.
What do you want?
What would make you guys happy?
What sort of event would be a reward?
And I think leaders do really great when theyfigure out how their people like to be
(09:03):
recognized and they ask these questions.
Hey, Joan likes to be in the limelight in frontof all of her peers and have something handed
to her, like an award or certificate.
But Tom just actually would really appreciatethree hours back to go home and be with his
young children for like a free day off.
And Sarah actually likes that just kind ofprivate email, that pat on the back that comes
with no one seeing it.
(09:24):
I think we do much better when we know whatpeople's love languages are and what each
Absolutely.
And then you think love when you think love andwork, but really and I I think of one leader
that I interviewed for my book, and he talkedthe rewards were based on what people loved.
So he would say to everyone, pick one thing,right?
What he would do is he would cycle out of hisoffice.
(09:46):
And each person had the opportunity to have hisoffice for a certain period of time.
But on top of that, what he did was he so let'ssay I wanna run a marathon like you and I'm
training and I'm with a club and maybe I withyour I'm sure you go through shoes when you're
training.
Yeah.
He can give that person a certificate to beable to accomplish that.
And I thought, how impressive.
(10:08):
Because that meant you really had to drill downto understand what that person what lights up
that person outside of work.
Yeah.
And you're kind of saying to them, wow, goodfor you.
I'm so happy you're doing things that you love.
And this is the reward that we're going to giveyou for doing such a good thing at work.
Yeah.
I know you mentioned in your own book thatconnection is one of your tenants and then also
(10:29):
recognition.
This is where I think connection andrecognition really meet, where we know what
people's lives are like out of work and we careabout that.
And so we're aware that someone's training fora marathon and we say, I'm going to give you a
certificate to the shoe store because I knowyou've been talking about you need new shoes
like we're paying attention and work isn't justabout work.
Realize people are whole and complete peopleoutside of work.
(10:50):
I think that's where it gets really exciting.
Individuality.
Can imagine getting something like that, right?
And you're like working hard on something andsomething like that, you get rewarded like that
because you're doing a great job and you'regoing to come back and you're going to I'll say
that most of us wanna do well at work.
We may have things that we're maybe goingthrough in our lives.
But for the most part, I would say that most ofus that's where we spend most of our time.
(11:13):
Right?
And we want meaning and purpose and all thosethings.
Even though at times maybe there's differencesat work or whatever, we're spending eight to
ten hours sometimes there and you're wanting tomake a difference with whatever you're doing.
So to add that on top of that, and I talk aboutthings like leaders being aware, just their
internal awareness, like what makes you feelrecognized?
(11:34):
Because if you're not aware within yourself,what my thing might be, yeah, you could say
send Roxanne an email to say, hey.
By the way, I saw you you mastered that skill,and I know how tough it is for you.
And I just wanna let you know that the you helpthe team save this much time.
But say you send it to me in email and notmaybe kind of bringing it up in the team
(11:54):
meeting is a better way.
That awareness starts with the leaderultimately, and then he or she translates that
down.
Because if I'm realizing that you're verydifferent from me, Amy, I'm gonna say, wow, I
missed the mark on Amy there.
Could tell.
I obviously need to learn a little bit moreabout her style or her strategy because if we
(12:15):
think that you're well intentioned in givingsomething over to as a leader and that person's
kind of that shows you that there's a bit morework that you need to do to understand some of
the differences.
This goes back to that original comment I madeof it's not about you, it's about others.
I think a lot of people feel like I'm theleader.
The team will adapt to me.
This is how I do things.
(12:35):
And really, it's the leader's job to adapt totheir people.
And I think it's exactly what you're talkingabout is I need to figure them out.
And then I adjust and adapt my methodologiesdepending on who I'm with or what the situation
is.
But, yeah, that's my job as the leader.
I'm the one that makes the flexible adjustment.
And that takes a lot of humility and selfawareness and a lot of openness to feedback and
(12:57):
asking questions and having dialogues andlearning instead of saying this is just how I
do things, and you'll all deal with it.
Right.
You'll you'll have to join the train Yeah.
To figure me out.
And I think that what I hear is you're talkingabout the opposite of ego.
Right?
I know leaders get hired because they havecertain acumen and capacity.
But really, the when we say the soft skills arereally that's what I think separates out, you
(13:20):
know, the leaders that are just okay to theleaders that really seem to kind of excel.
And at that point, they're completely intoservice because they're thinking about how is
it that I bring out the most in this person infront of me?
And I'm just trying to kind of and then beforeyou're just kind of sometimes you're still
having fun.
I've been in leadership And I think when youget to learn people's sometimes their fears,
(13:45):
sometimes what their gifts are and what theirlimitations are, and then you play to their
strengths but assist them with theirweaknesses, then people just flourish.
Yep.
I love it.
I think great leaders keep people slightlyoutside of their comfort zones.
Maybe that's what I would call the learningzone, but they don't let their individuals go
(14:05):
into the panic zone.
Because you're right.
I think a lot of us struggle with change or wedon't like to be uncomfortable.
And so helping someone advance and grow andbecome a better version of themselves, whether
they're in health care or they're an engineeror whether they're in academics, there's always
something we should be kind of growing andmoving towards.
But without great leaders, sometimes we justkind of stay stuck and we remain the same year
after year.
(14:26):
A good leader will say, these are my person'sstrengths.
These are also some of their blind spots.
And I'm going to just kind of pull them or sortof push them or kind of walk alongside them
gently, but nudge them into a place wherethey're a little uncomfortable and awkward.
There may be cracking a little, but they're notfumbling.
I think great leaders have the insight and theawareness and the perception to figure out what
(14:46):
that looks like for each individual.
Yeah.
Where that subset is because fear andexhilaration could kind of be they kinda share
a space.
Right?
Because if you think about when a a company isgrowing, it's exciting, but it's also scary.
If we don't?
What if we made a mistake?
And then if you're, as a leader, if your fearcomes out where people can absorb it or feel
it, or even if you're seeming like you're fine,you're all good, you're all shining a bright,
(15:11):
but everybody knows this.
There's a lot of fear in the crowd.
Not owning it or even naming it sometimes makespeople feel so incongruent, and that's where
you miss the opportunity to really kind ofspeak to what's happening in the room.
Absolutely.
With the book, tell me what are the sevenvirtues of, exceptional leaders?
(15:31):
Because I I mean, I'm sure we've already talkedabout policies, but what are some of the the
qualities that we haven't chatted about thatthat, that's in the book?
Yeah.
When I first published this book, I was alwaystelling people, it's an acronym, and that means
the letters for something.
Everyone was like, we know what an acronym is.
And, I can tell it's an acronym, like, becauseof the periods between the words.
Right.
Sounds
like you're highly intelligent and insightful.
(15:54):
I'll just run you through the acronym or themodel.
I call it a framework as well.
V is for vision, I is for involve, which we'vetalked about a little bit.
R is for routines.
T is for talk.
U is for understand.
E is for encourage and S is for showcase.
And within each of these seven virtues, there'spractices and processes that I encourage people
(16:15):
to do very actionable steps of like, this iswhat talk terrifically looks like, or this is
within encourage energy, how you will encourageenergy.
But those at a high level, those are what theseven virtues are.
What do you find as with beginning leaders, forinstance, what do you find are some of the
challenges generally with beginning leadersversus leaders?
(16:38):
Oh, that's a great question.
And they're all things that I failed at andmade mistakes around when I first got in
leadership, which got me inspired to write thebook.
Cause I'm like, let me just share.
Me as an early leader and how much I screwed itup before I realized.
Few things come to mind right off the bat.
These are common things I see.
I think, you know, beginning first timeleaders, they struggle with empowerment and
(16:59):
probably most people call it delegation.
But I like the word empowerment.
I don't feel like we're delegating.
I feel like we're turning over the keys to thecastle.
It's a good thing.
Like, people are gonna grow because of that.
But they sort of feel like they have to do itall themselves.
A lot of people get promoted into leadership insome department division industry because they
were a great person that they're about tomanage.
(17:20):
They were an awesome engineer.
Now they're the leader of the other engineers.
They were a great whatever it was.
And and so they feel like I did this reallywell.
I've kind of got these strategies or thesethings that work.
And so when they see others doing itdifferently, I can't handle that.
I'll take it back and I'll own it.
And I can do it faster and better myself.
And so I guess along with this is kind of thesecond thing, they don't want people to make
(17:43):
mistakes or fail in the same ways they did.
And so instead of just saying, you know, youhire that person that I don't I wouldn't hire
if I were you, and we'll just see how it worksout for you.
One of us is going to learn something eitherI'm going be wrong or you're going to be wrong,
and then we'll talk about it.
They're not able to do that.
I guess this is in a scenario where they'remanaging other leaders.
They would say, Hey, I don't think you shouldhire them.
I would take this person.
(18:04):
Here's why I really want you to do it that way.
They they won't let people kind of discover forthemselves.
They feel like they have to answer questionsinstead of asking the questions.
And I think what this does unintentionally isit robs the people around them of their own
journey.
The people become dependent on the leader.
I've got to go ask my boss what they think Ishould do.
(18:24):
And so the leader will say, you should do thisbecause like, that's why I'm in leadership,
just to know what to do.
But I think more advanced leaders say, what doyou think we should do about this?
What have you come to so far?
What research did you do?
What questions have you asked?
Okay, yeah, why don't you try that?
Like, maybe it's not going to work out, butthen we're all going to learn something.
They don't want to go have other people gothrough that pain.
(18:45):
And I do think that cuts off a learningprocess.
And so again, I think more advanced leaders sayit's okay to fail.
It's okay to make mistakes.
It's okay to get uncomfortable and struggle andhave challenges.
And that's how I'm going to help people grow.
But I am not going to do things for people.
I'm going to let people bumble through itthemselves.
And I'm going to allow myself to beuncomfortable watching that because I got to
(19:05):
have a stronger team next year than I have thisyear.
And that's the way to make it happen.
So that's kind of the most common thing I atleast see when starting out.
Yeah, that's the difference between managingand leading.
Yes.
That's that line.
And every time you go up a level, right?
You have to get comfortable with the fact thatwas more tactical and that was leading, but
it's that discomfort, that dysregulation withinyourself because you're thinking this may put
(19:30):
us back.
But really, the point that what you're doing isthat whole concept of get them a fish or teach
them how to fish kind of thing becauseeventually, I mean, people may not do it the
way you do it.
Yes.
But that ability to problem solve and thenproblem solve and maybe even go back to their
other team members and be able to have thoseconversations and figure it out.
(19:51):
How valuable is that?
Because then they could kind of go back in therecesses of their mind to say, oh, that didn't
work so well, but this is better, or thisseemed to be a better approach with my team or
things like that.
That's right.
You have said it so well, better than I was.
And so I guess I'll summarize what I heard yousay, because I think it's so true.
Yeah, they probably manage and supervise morethan they lead and empower.
(20:12):
They focus on short term results more than thislong term journey.
Yeah, they get very wrapped up in tactics andkind of the day to day the weeds versus the
strategy and the bigger picture.
They don't make kind of this transition to,hey, the things I used to do now, I've got
people to do that for me and I need to let themdo that.
And I need to get out of the way they're notcomfortable with that.
(20:34):
Yeah, I think it's it's I just love the way youput it really good.
In reference to like I talked to a lot withburnt out leaders, right?
Leaders that are not taking care of themselves.
What are you finding out there with leadership?
Obviously, we know that the leaders in Swirl,we're in that bit of that huddle, like with you
guys, or just globally.
There's so much going on.
(20:55):
What are
you finding with the leaders that you'redealing with?
How are they dealing with their ability to copewith all that's on their plate?
You ask great questions.
This is a hot topic right now.
Guess I feel it's always been.
I do think a lot of people struggle withburnout and that's because they're afraid to
set boundaries with their boss or their companyor even themselves.
(21:17):
They're underestimating the importance of thatwhole complete person and that whole complete
life and balance.
They feel like they've got to be perfect andthey're people pleasing.
I can't leave early because we got this projectcoming up.
And what might that look like?
And what will people say about me if theynotice that I went out the door at 05:00 when
there was more work to be done?
(21:37):
And so I'm just going to kind of call my wifeand tell her I'll miss the little league game
that Billy's in because I just need to be hereright now.
They tell themselves these stories of like, itwon't always be this way.
I'll do Dip Better next month when the projector the initiative is over.
But then this becomes a pattern of behavior andthey're not practicing just saying no.
And I've got more important things to do at themoment.
(21:59):
Not that work isn't important, but today,Thursday afternoon, I have a kid playing his
first little league game.
Like I'm that's where I said I was gonna be,and I have to be that.
I'm going to be there.
They blow things off.
And then I think that becomes, yeah, a practicethat they engage in for years.
And then they have this kind of unhealthyrelationship with their work and they skip
vacations and they won't just walk out thedoor.
(22:21):
And I really respect I've had a few leadersthat just would go and say, like, I got a
family commitment.
My family is important to me.
It's actually number one.
It's more important than work in the greaterscheme of my life.
So I'm here my fifty hours or forty or whateverit is.
But in this moment, I'm not going to make acompromise.
And so you guys will figure it out.
I'll be back tomorrow.
Have a great night.
(22:42):
Don't call me.
And when the leader does that, I think otherpeople realize they can do that well.
Then they can fall in pattern and that movesright into my I remember when I was in
corporate, I took piano lessons with my son.
Oh, what's sweet.
Right?
And I was always hightailing it to try to getto piano lessons, oftentimes late, and I would
get the luck from him, right?
(23:03):
But would you say that sector impacts thecapacity for leaders to feel like they can take
the time because if it's normative not to and Iremember at my time, you know, it was kind of
starting to get there, Amy, but it wasn't thereyet.
(23:23):
Do you think that different sectors is dip eventoday is different about people taking that
time?
I do.
And I also think even within a sector, acompany can create a culture where it's like,
this is the norm.
And I guess I have these thoughts on it.
Regardless of it, like, hey.
It's it makes you feel that way.
I guess I feel we have this responsibility tobe the change that we want to see.
(23:46):
And if we work at it and say it's a dead end,I'm, you know, operating this way and then I'm
getting judged for it or talked to about it andHR is not supportive.
I just believe people should leave, whetherit's the company or the sector, but they should
kind of stand up for the overall life that theywant to have.
And this gets into a much deeper conversationof like life vision statements.
(24:06):
I'm a big believer in them having a purposestatement or a vision statement for your whole
life.
And if you say most people who do it, they dohave family personal hobbies and pursuits,
their faith or their religion on there kind oftowards the top.
And I'm just a big believer that if you've gota job or a work that is in constant conflict
with that or you're allowing it to be like,you're not in the right place.
(24:29):
And if you're talented, you can go somewhereelse and you'll have opportunities.
I do believe, even though it might be, youknow, sometimes sector specific or company
specific, great leaders in all industries canlead in ways where the amount of time it takes
to get things done actually goes down andpeople don't need to be there as much as we
think.
And a lot of people are highly inefficient withthe actual activities they're doing.
(24:53):
And if you really dig into like, what arepeople doing with their time?
It's a ton of busy work or it's a lot of goingback and fixing stuff because communication was
poor.
And so I just also think great leadership fixesthese problems.
Okay, we got to work our asses off.
I hope it's okay to say that word, but work ourbutts off to get this stuff done.
It's not that way.
You usually get 80% of your results from 20% ofyour efforts.
(25:13):
And so I think great leaders dig in and say,how are we spending our time?
And they find all sorts of red tape andbureaucracy and then they dismantle that and
then everybody can have a healthy life.
Maybe I'm an optimist, but those aren't mybeliefs.
No, and I think when I'm talking that I leftcorporate in 2010, right?
So at that time as a female executive, it wasdifferent.
And I had a young child as well.
(25:34):
But now, and I think obviously the pandemic putthe Bunsen burner under it for people to
recognize what people are juggling between homeand work.
You always feel split when you're a youngparent.
Yes.
And things like that, when they saw what peoplewere actually coping with, I would call it work
life effectiveness, there's no balance there.
If you're always kind of teeter totteringsomewhere along the way, And now people have
(25:59):
gone back to the office and stuff like that.
I think that they're going back with adifferent lens and we can't go backwards like
we were, thank goodness.
I went virtual in 02/2004.
So we were that was a long time ago.
Yeah.
I remember even being at home and my neighborswould think, what is she you know, kinda like,
what's she doing at home?
And I've been working and they didn't because Ilive in a little town on a little cul de sac.
(26:23):
And then you now you realize that generallypeople are we've adapted to a different
paradigm, which is phenomenal, I think.
And but now there's tensions between how do youkind of adjust back and how do you stay
connected, all those different kinds of issuesbased on the stage that we're in now.
Such great points.
(26:43):
And I I do feel that there's lot of negativethings that came out of the pandemic, the least
of which is not like I don't know if it's thefinal duff count.
Six million people passed away.
Awful.
But one of the positives that I think came outof it is it did show the world a different way
to work and companies did survive.
And in some cases through 2021, '22 had greatresults and their entire workforce was at home.
(27:04):
I was in a credit union space and we figuredout how to get all of our call center employees
working out of their own living rooms andbedrooms.
It took some technology workarounds.
But when it first came, I was kind of not theinnovator.
I was like, well, the call center staff's goingto have to come in because, I mean, they're on
the system and we like what they use and theprograms, but also like the just everything
(27:26):
that they're broadcasting over these phonelines.
They're not gonna be able to do that in theirown homes.
And sure enough, we got the whole call centerhome within a few months, and I'm listening to
the quality of the calls, I'm like, it's great.
It sounds exactly the same as them when they'rehere in the call center.
And that was like a big accomplishment.
I do see now the struggle for some companies isthey want everyone back in the office and
employees don't want to go because they'velearned how nice it is to at least a few days a
(27:49):
week not have to get up, press a suit, get inthe shower, drive, spend their gas, park, fight
traffic for a couple hours, and they can bejust as effective at home, throw a load of
laundry in on their lunch break or run thedishes in between a couple of calls, and their
life feels better and fuller.
And I see the companies struggling with thisthe most.
From my perspective, there's a lack of trust.
(28:11):
It's like we don't know what our employees aredoing unless we can watch them.
It's like, that's a huge foundational problemthat you're going to have, whether they're in
there in person or not, that there is not thisvalue exchange of we pay them.
And we believe that we've hired the righttalent.
And we believe that there is just as investedin our goals as we are.
And we don't need to watch them and see them totrust that they're going to do great work.
(28:33):
It's a There's a huge erosion there.
And in a lot of those organizations, you see alot of struggles right now.
Because like the concept is FaceTime when I wasin corporate was FaceTime, right?
Then you look up that concept basicallyfourteen, fifteen years later, and it's if you
don't have the capacity to allow others thatyou've employed, and you've brought them on
(28:54):
your team to do their jobs, then how are youcreating psychological safety?
And yeah, maybe things might trip along for abit and your numbers are going to be good, but
eventually people want to feel validatedbecause if you're second guessing me and you're
my leader, then there's going to be thatdeterioration in my capacity to believe that
(29:17):
you think I can do a good job, and theneverything goes south from there quite
literally.
Right?
I remember a stern talking to I got probablyten years ago.
I was at Bank of America, and I said to my bossat the time I'm managing 15 branches.
I've got, yeah, 15 branch managers that allhave their own office and I'm saying to her,
you know, with this one particular thing, I Ijust don't know if I can trust this manager of
(29:38):
mine to do that and she just went loose on me.
She says, Amy, you you pay this person almost a6 figure salary.
You've had, they've got the keys to the vault.
Their vault closes with over half a milliondollars every night.
You can't trust her.
Why the heck is she working for you?
If there's a real trust problem, there'sspecific things she's done to, you know, make
you question trust.
She should be out of disciplinary action andyou should be you you should have a wreck open
(30:00):
right now.
What do you trust there?
And I really had to think about that.
And my boss was absolutely right.
If I if things had specifically happened wheretrust had been broken and we couldn't rebuild
it, they just shouldn't be with me.
And if we do keep the people with us and wethink really highly of them, that's why we've
employed them, then like we've got to turn overthe kind of the keys to the castle and the
decision making powers to them and believe inthem.
(30:22):
I had another boss that said, you know, you'drate someone a four on their performance review
out of five, like an exceeds expectations, doesit ever make sense to make a decision for them?
And I was like, maybe sometimes.
And he was like, I think the answer should beno.
It's like you will.
You put them in a place of power.
You let them make their own decisions and youtrust they'll come talk to you when it's kind
of going off the rails and they'll enlist yourhelp when, you know, when they need to and ask
(30:45):
advice at the right times.
But you got to have some faith in them.
And I love this topic.
I think a lot of people really saw
Well, no, because I completely believe inpsychological safety, right?
So if you're saying, and I remember when I wasyoung, I was running a unit of the hospital and
I came in, of course, in both my psychologicalbackground into management.
These are all highly trained people, I'm theyoungest.
(31:07):
I'm half their age probably at this point.
And I went in and spoke to capacity and allthose things.
And because they had been led under a lack oftrust, that poured on to me as the new leader,
thinking that what's she up to?
I'm gonna scatter the liar until I see whatyou're doing.
And then I'm like, no, no, no.
(31:27):
This is actually you're gonna see with timethat this is who I am, and I truly believe that
it's possible.
Took two years.
Yep.
Two years of a lot and they were working hard,but it still took two years for them to just
settle down because previously, a couple of, Iguess, cycles of management were not trusting
(31:49):
of them and then they were second guessingtheir capacity all those So that corrosive
element is so destructive long term.
Absolutely.
We talk about childhood trauma a lot and thisis kind of a buzzword now in today's day and
age.
And I think really what you're talking about iskind of professional trauma of previous
leadership.
And I probably wouldn't call it leadership, butprevious management having instilled these
(32:11):
beliefs in them of I can't quite believe thisleader, like what they say they're going to do.
I'm going to need to see it.
I do have this belief.
It's a model I call Ebar experiences lead tobeliefs, beliefs lead to actions, actions lead
to results.
And so I think the reason it takes two years isbecause they had, I don't know how many years
of previous experiences, but developed somepretty strong beliefs of, you know, there is no
(32:32):
trust here.
And so someone comes in saying all the rightthings, but it's you're going to have to show
me and give me these new experiences, the paveover the old ones before I'm going to really
develop new beliefs.
And then you'll see my actions align with that.
I have had some teams that have been reallyscarred by micromanaging leaders that didn't
have their back, that would say one thing anddo another, or sometimes be actually out to get
(32:53):
them.
And they had to be very careful and watch theirevery step.
And I would show up and be like, Okay, well,don't know what happened, but I can see that's
going on or you're telling me about it.
Day in court here.
And they would be like, okay, but it would takemonths and months and upwards of two years
before you really could say we've recoveredfrom that.
And I've shown them something new and I thinkit's really important work.
(33:14):
So Bravo to you having that experience.
It's fun.
Like you used the word fun earlier.
I think it's fun to actually help peoplerecover and develop.
Yeah.
Because, you know, and and what they did wasafter a while, I think I had stayed there in
that that management role, and I was young.
Right?
It was in my twenties.
Yeah.
Right?
Grad school.
And at the time I had left and I was consultingwith them, they were a self functioning team.
(33:37):
I love it.
Right?
But it took some instrumental things.
I remember that one of the first things that Idid, which was so insignificant, but I got them
it was Christmas time, and I got them all redshirts that set the department and, you know,
had a little logo that told me something abouttheir personality and their name.
(33:58):
We had a little get together off-site, and thatwas like it was about two years in the making,
and then it's almost like they finally said,Okay, we can breathe.
Yeah.
We can just breathe.
And I think that's ultimately what people aretrying to do as they work in environments where
they're trying to make a difference and theyfeel like they're being pushed the wrong way of
(34:18):
achieving good results for themselves.
I love it.
So this has been, I think you and I have, likewe said before, we have alignment and tell us
what you're up to.
I know you also do you speak as well and you doother coaching.
So tell everybody a little bit more about yourbusiness and where they can get a hold of you
(34:40):
Amy.
Absolutely.
Okay.
I I just a quick what am I doing now?
I am working on a third book.
It's called couldn't run a mile.
I did run my two hundred and fifty fifth halfmarathon last weekend, and everyone always
says, wow, that's so many of them, but it wasonly ten years ago.
I could not make it to the end of the blockwithout running.
And I just have developed this really biginterest, passion need to put in a book, what
(35:03):
it was that made the difference betweencouldn't get to the end of the block, could not
run a mile to now almost 15,000 miles ofrunning later.
So that's what I'm working on.
Amazing.
Amazing.
I have to read that.
I've never ran over my years, but it has beenmy thing when my son was young.
It was the best investment of time.
So I knew what a five ks was and I had theexact roots.
(35:26):
Probably a little bit different from me.
I'd be like, okay, I know I'm leaving now.
I know I could just put on my shoes and getthere and it'll be done like it, you know, I
wasn't doing too bad back then, twenty twominutes or so, probably slowed by your
standards.
Oh wow, no, I But
I knew exactly.
And I was like, gotta just breathe throughthis.
But I'm more the type, I like CrossFit stufflike that.
But
Oh, wow.
(35:47):
Know, to me that's you know?
And but it's it I would love to hear the stepsof that.
So Yeah.
Everybody thinking about and it's not I wouldsay it's not just about running.
It's about It is not.
Something that's difficult.
Right?
You know, it's most of it is mental and it was,probably the book is sort of turning into, like
these 10 principles and almost all of them aredecisions I made from a mindset standpoint of
(36:08):
like, hey, it's okay if it's hard and struggleis a good thing.
And not all days are created equal.
You can go out and have a great day.
It isn't linear.
It's gonna be all over the map with progress.
So it's all things that would be applicable topeople's relationships and their professional
lives.
But it did make the difference of why I finallywas able to stay with running and then,
continue it in the relationship I formed withhow I thought about it.
(36:29):
But it's the same stuff that we need to know atwork and apply in a relationship.
So there's that.
Amymchambers.com is where people can find me.
There's a calendar link on there to scheduletime with me or a free call.
There's also a link on there to both of mybooks.
We've talked a lot today, which was great aboutthe leadership and business book.
The second book was all about personalhappiness and joy and the relationship we have
(36:51):
with ourselves.
And so Virtues 15 and Habits 15 takes 15% offeach book respectively.
But people can learn more about my one on onecoaching, leadership consulting that I do with
small businesses, buy the books, everything isthere.
Amymchambers.com.
So that's where people can reach me.
I'm also on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook,LinkedIn, all the things all under Amy
(37:13):
Chambers.
I'll find them both.
So just send them your So what am I takingaway?
I'm taking away that ultimately, you know, whenpeople are in leadership positions, they're
learning like everybody else when they'restarting off.
And what they need is someone to guide them andreassure them when they hit their blind spots,
(37:33):
because we all have them.
We all have things we're phenomenal at, and wehave things that we're not so good at.
And instead of looking at it as being adetriment to as the leader to say, how is it
that I can engage this individual to to movethem along?
It's gonna be uncomfortable to what Amy'spoint, but holding the space for them so that
(37:54):
when they do trip up and bump their knee andfall down and don't feel good, they're gonna
learn from it versus you telling them exactlyhow they should have steered through that
decision.
And at year end performance, you can have thosereflective conversations, which would probably
give them much more depth from that person.
And then their learning plans and stuff likethat would probably be a natural extension of
(38:17):
what they've learned.
So, Amy, thanks again for spending the timewith us.
Everyone, again, thanks so much for hanging outwith us.
If you're not subscribed, please go on andsubscribe to the podcast.
Guests like Amy are possible because you go inand you subscribe to the podcast.
And as you know, I'm starting a new course onthe ROR book, and it's starting mid June.
(38:38):
So please reach out.
We can jump on a call.
I can give you all the steps.
It's a live course with live Thanks
for tuning in to Authentic living with Roxanne,creating the space for positive healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitroxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
(39:01):
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Coaching, and I think the spots are filling uppretty quick.
So, again, Amy, thanks so much.
And for everybody, thanks again, and we'll chatwith you next week.
Take care.
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:40):
Everyone, it's Roxanne Durhodge.
Thanks for tuning in again to Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Today, have a colleague that's she's in the sunall the time.
She's in California.
That's Amy Chambers, and she chambers, sorry,and she's a
chambers,
she sorry, and she's a leadership expert.
So Amy, thanks so much for giving us your timetoday.
Thank you so much for having me, Roxanne.
(01:01):
Happy to be here.
Okay.
So let me tell you a little bit about her andthe full buy will be in the show notes.
She's an executive coach, life coach, aconsultant, and a motivational speaker.
She's been in the financial industry for wellover fifteen years.
She has two Amazon bestseller books.
The one that we're gonna focus a bit more ontoday is Virtues of Exceptional Leaders, and
(01:21):
that was released in February 2023.
The second one is Six Habits of PowerfulPeople.
She's done a lot of different things, alongwith she has a graduate degree from University
of Notre Dame, where she double majored inpolitical science and philosophy, MBA from USC,
and has done a lot in business.
And I let her tell you about that.
(01:42):
And what I picked up on is that she's ranlisten to this.
I'm thinking, like, the most I've done is a 10k.
She's done two thirty half marathons.
So if we have time, we'll talk about that.
And 12 full ones.
And she's originally from Buffalo, and I'm herein Ivory Falls, New York.
So, Amy, what a path you've taken to kind ofget here.
(02:04):
So tell us a little bit about the formalwanting to get into business, went to
traditional business school.
What was kind of the path that kind of led youalong the way to get where you are today?
I remember I was babysitting for this guy thatlived down the street from me when I was a
senior in high school, and he asked if thesummer after senior year I could babysit pretty
(02:27):
much every day, all day, he'd be working andhis wife was gonna go back and try to get a law
degree.
And I said, you know, mister Gold, I reallyneed to get, like, a real job.
Not that watching Jack and Jane isn'timportant, but I think I need something for my
college resume, and all my friends have jobsat, like, grocery stores or restaurants.
I I think I need to work for a company thatwould give me a paycheck, not just hand me
cash.
(02:47):
He says, oh, why don't you just come look atthe bank?
And I was like, the bank?
I didn't even know what he did professionally.
And turns out he was a district manager at Mand T Bank, which you're probably familiar
with.
And I said, oh, okay.
So I started as a teller.
I liked it.
Always a math fan and enjoyed talking topeople.
So I did that teller job all through college.
I would work at M and T on my summers when Icame home from college, on breaks, and then was
(03:10):
also doing that back at Notre Dame in Indiana.
And when I graduated from college, I wentthrough M and T's management leadership
development program, became a branch manager.
And I was thinking about going back to lawschool myself, but I realized the power we had
to change people's lives with advice and reallyjust helping people realize how in control they
were of their saving and their spending.
(03:32):
I fell in love with it.
So I continued on into the regional managerpath, ended up as a COO.
I was very proud of that.
But what really started to get me excited wasleadership.
Started realizing that sometimes two branchesat the bank would be down the street from each
other.
And in one situation, the employees were happy,they were thriving, they were getting promoted,
(03:54):
they were at the top of the sales reports andall the recognition reports.
And the other branch, very similarly situated,same demographics of their customers, really
nothing different externally, was having allsorts of problems.
Realized it came down to leadership.
That's always the factor.
And so I begged law school, continued on inbusiness, and I really wanted to understand
(04:15):
what are these conditions where employees dotheir very best work versus they're checked out
and they're looking for other jobs and theydon't like coming to work.
Yeah, I stayed to figure that all out and endedup falling in love with it.
So all because of Rich Gold saying, why don'tyou come work at the bank?
I spent twenty one
days in never know where that start's going tobe, right?
You never do know.
So when you kind of think of those twoenvironments, like you said, same philosophy,
(04:39):
same company, like you said, same area, whatwere some of the things that you start to
recognize that were some of the instrumentalthings that I'm going to assume you probably
ended up writing about in leadership?
Like what's some of the things thatfundamentally leaders need to learn early on in
their career?
Yeah.
Probably, if I could put it in a sentence, thebiggest thing I think that separates great
(05:02):
leaders from not so great leaders is that theyknow it's not about them.
When you lead people, it's about your team.
It's about others.
It's not about what you can do anymore.
It's about what you can help other people do.
And if you start there, every action you takeor every moment of your day changes.
And so a few things that I realized conditionswhere people do great work, they get feedback,
(05:24):
they get coaching, they get development, andnot just once a year at their performance
review, but all the time.
And they get feedback on the things that theysaid were most important to them.
Great leaders ask their employees, Hey, wheredo you want to be in five or ten years?
You know, what can I help you get better at?
And, okay, it's public speaking or it's gettingthis degree or certification.
We're going to put you in environments whereyou learn those kinds of things.
(05:45):
It's a real recognition of what someone'snatural talents are and also what their
interests are and saying, we're going to putpersonalized development plans together around
you.
And the second thing is, and you mentioned itwhen we were talking before, recognition and
encouragement.
People want to be seen.
They want to be noticed, they want to know thatthe work that they're doing is mattering and
(06:06):
making a difference.
And so great leaders take the time to say thankyou.
And I thought you did awesome earlier today.
And in that moment, whatever you did or saidwas exactly what we're looking for.
Please do that again.
And they make a routine or a pattern aroundthat.
Again, it's not just once a month or once aquarter, it's almost daily.
They're looking at what people are doing andtalking about it.
(06:26):
So those are some of the conditions wherepeople do great.
When that's not there, people just wither orsort of anguish.
Yeah.
And, you know, doing the research for my bookand also from my corporate kind of work in
wellness, what we found is that everybody wantsto be seen, but in different ways.
Right?
So if you're the type, you're like the one thatwants to be at the front of the pack kind of
(06:50):
thing, that's one thing.
But sometimes you have people that want therecognition as it can be soft and subtle, but
it's really about, you know, understanding whatis Amy reading and what seems to light her up
when she's done a good job.
Is there something that I can do?
It could be an email that nobody else knowsabout.
It could be that, you know, you get theperson's favorite Starbucks coffee card and you
(07:12):
drop it on their desk and kind of say thankyou.
And it's a subtlety of recognition versus thepeople that are the extroverts are always
speaking up or part of potentially the salesand marketing teams.
Sometimes the other people that are lessinvasive but instrumental, they're also looking
for certain things and they will never say whatthey need and you have to kind of figure it out
(07:34):
as a leader.
I wrote about that in my book and probably oneof the stories I use to illustrate this point.
I was working for U.
S.
Bank back while I was getting my MBA, and theyI made some sort of recognition event for a
quarter of great work.
And they took us out of our branches for awhole day, and it just turned into what felt to
me like a punishment.
They wanted us to all ride the bus together toa surprise location.
(07:57):
And so I drove.
I got up way earlier than I normally had todrove into LA when my branch was very close to
my house just to get bused back to the areawhere I was.
It was like 100 degrees.
No one told us to wear comfortable shoes.
We went to the Getty, and we were out there in,like, heels and suits because no one bothered
to say, hey.
This is actually a casual event.
So my feet were killing me.
And then they went took us to Phogo to Chow,and I don't eat meat.
(08:20):
And so now they wouldn't have known that, andit was a group event.
And some people, of course, loved it, but Ikind of I driving home that day, I thought I
had bring people in to cover my branch thatwould normally have been off because I couldn't
be there to cover my branch.
And now because I went to this thing, I alsohave to work Saturday because I need to give
them that Saturday off.
And so it resulted in me working more hours,getting up earlier.
(08:42):
I missed out on time to do MBA homework aftermy regular workday.
And it just kind of made me chuckle in that,like, there was no maybe forethought or asking
or dialog as to, hey, you guys have won thisthing.
What do you want?
What would make you guys happy?
What sort of event would be a reward?
And I think leaders do really great when theyfigure out how their people like to be
(09:03):
recognized and they ask these questions.
Hey, Joan likes to be in the limelight in frontof all of her peers and have something handed
to her, like an award or certificate.
But Tom just actually would really appreciatethree hours back to go home and be with his
young children for like a free day off.
And Sarah actually likes that just kind ofprivate email, that pat on the back that comes
with no one seeing it.
(09:24):
I think we do much better when we know whatpeople's love languages are and what each
Absolutely.
And then you think love when you think love andwork, but really and I I think of one leader
that I interviewed for my book, and he talkedthe rewards were based on what people loved.
So he would say to everyone, pick one thing,right?
What he would do is he would cycle out of hisoffice.
(09:46):
And each person had the opportunity to have hisoffice for a certain period of time.
But on top of that, what he did was he so let'ssay I wanna run a marathon like you and I'm
training and I'm with a club and maybe I withyour I'm sure you go through shoes when you're
training.
Yeah.
He can give that person a certificate to beable to accomplish that.
And I thought, how impressive.
(10:08):
Because that meant you really had to drill downto understand what that person what lights up
that person outside of work.
Yeah.
And you're kind of saying to them, wow, goodfor you.
I'm so happy you're doing things that you love.
And this is the reward that we're going to giveyou for doing such a good thing at work.
Yeah.
I know you mentioned in your own book thatconnection is one of your tenants and then also
(10:29):
recognition.
This is where I think connection andrecognition really meet, where we know what
people's lives are like out of work and we careabout that.
And so we're aware that someone's training fora marathon and we say, I'm going to give you a
certificate to the shoe store because I knowyou've been talking about you need new shoes
like we're paying attention and work isn't justabout work.
Realize people are whole and complete peopleoutside of work.
(10:50):
I think that's where it gets really exciting.
Individuality.
Can imagine getting something like that, right?
And you're like working hard on something andsomething like that, you get rewarded like that
because you're doing a great job and you'regoing to come back and you're going to I'll say
that most of us wanna do well at work.
We may have things that we're maybe goingthrough in our lives.
But for the most part, I would say that most ofus that's where we spend most of our time.
(11:13):
Right?
And we want meaning and purpose and all thosethings.
Even though at times maybe there's differencesat work or whatever, we're spending eight to
ten hours sometimes there and you're wanting tomake a difference with whatever you're doing.
So to add that on top of that, and I talk aboutthings like leaders being aware, just their
internal awareness, like what makes you feelrecognized?
(11:34):
Because if you're not aware within yourself,what my thing might be, yeah, you could say
send Roxanne an email to say, hey.
By the way, I saw you you mastered that skill,and I know how tough it is for you.
And I just wanna let you know that the you helpthe team save this much time.
But say you send it to me in email and notmaybe kind of bringing it up in the team
(11:54):
meeting is a better way.
That awareness starts with the leaderultimately, and then he or she translates that
down.
Because if I'm realizing that you're verydifferent from me, Amy, I'm gonna say, wow, I
missed the mark on Amy there.
Could tell.
I obviously need to learn a little bit moreabout her style or her strategy because if we
(12:15):
think that you're well intentioned in givingsomething over to as a leader and that person's
kind of that shows you that there's a bit morework that you need to do to understand some of
the differences.
This goes back to that original comment I madeof it's not about you, it's about others.
I think a lot of people feel like I'm theleader.
The team will adapt to me.
This is how I do things.
(12:35):
And really, it's the leader's job to adapt totheir people.
And I think it's exactly what you're talkingabout is I need to figure them out.
And then I adjust and adapt my methodologiesdepending on who I'm with or what the situation
is.
But, yeah, that's my job as the leader.
I'm the one that makes the flexible adjustment.
And that takes a lot of humility and selfawareness and a lot of openness to feedback and
(12:57):
asking questions and having dialogues andlearning instead of saying this is just how I
do things, and you'll all deal with it.
Right.
You'll you'll have to join the train Yeah.
To figure me out.
And I think that what I hear is you're talkingabout the opposite of ego.
Right?
I know leaders get hired because they havecertain acumen and capacity.
But really, the when we say the soft skills arereally that's what I think separates out, you
(13:20):
know, the leaders that are just okay to theleaders that really seem to kind of excel.
And at that point, they're completely intoservice because they're thinking about how is
it that I bring out the most in this person infront of me?
And I'm just trying to kind of and then beforeyou're just kind of sometimes you're still
having fun.
I've been in leadership And I think when youget to learn people's sometimes their fears,
(13:45):
sometimes what their gifts are and what theirlimitations are, and then you play to their
strengths but assist them with theirweaknesses, then people just flourish.
Yep.
I love it.
I think great leaders keep people slightlyoutside of their comfort zones.
Maybe that's what I would call the learningzone, but they don't let their individuals go
(14:05):
into the panic zone.
Because you're right.
I think a lot of us struggle with change or wedon't like to be uncomfortable.
And so helping someone advance and grow andbecome a better version of themselves, whether
they're in health care or they're an engineeror whether they're in academics, there's always
something we should be kind of growing andmoving towards.
But without great leaders, sometimes we justkind of stay stuck and we remain the same year
after year.
(14:26):
A good leader will say, these are my person'sstrengths.
These are also some of their blind spots.
And I'm going to just kind of pull them or sortof push them or kind of walk alongside them
gently, but nudge them into a place wherethey're a little uncomfortable and awkward.
There may be cracking a little, but they're notfumbling.
I think great leaders have the insight and theawareness and the perception to figure out what
(14:46):
that looks like for each individual.
Yeah.
Where that subset is because fear andexhilaration could kind of be they kinda share
a space.
Right?
Because if you think about when a a company isgrowing, it's exciting, but it's also scary.
If we don't?
What if we made a mistake?
And then if you're, as a leader, if your fearcomes out where people can absorb it or feel
it, or even if you're seeming like you're fine,you're all good, you're all shining a bright,
(15:11):
but everybody knows this.
There's a lot of fear in the crowd.
Not owning it or even naming it sometimes makespeople feel so incongruent, and that's where
you miss the opportunity to really kind ofspeak to what's happening in the room.
Absolutely.
With the book, tell me what are the sevenvirtues of, exceptional leaders?
(15:31):
Because I I mean, I'm sure we've already talkedabout policies, but what are some of the the
qualities that we haven't chatted about thatthat, that's in the book?
Yeah.
When I first published this book, I was alwaystelling people, it's an acronym, and that means
the letters for something.
Everyone was like, we know what an acronym is.
And, I can tell it's an acronym, like, becauseof the periods between the words.
Right.
Sounds
like you're highly intelligent and insightful.
(15:54):
I'll just run you through the acronym or themodel.
I call it a framework as well.
V is for vision, I is for involve, which we'vetalked about a little bit.
R is for routines.
T is for talk.
U is for understand.
E is for encourage and S is for showcase.
And within each of these seven virtues, there'spractices and processes that I encourage people
(16:15):
to do very actionable steps of like, this iswhat talk terrifically looks like, or this is
within encourage energy, how you will encourageenergy.
But those at a high level, those are what theseven virtues are.
What do you find as with beginning leaders, forinstance, what do you find are some of the
challenges generally with beginning leadersversus leaders?
(16:38):
Oh, that's a great question.
And they're all things that I failed at andmade mistakes around when I first got in
leadership, which got me inspired to write thebook.
Cause I'm like, let me just share.
Me as an early leader and how much I screwed itup before I realized.
Few things come to mind right off the bat.
These are common things I see.
I think, you know, beginning first timeleaders, they struggle with empowerment and
(16:59):
probably most people call it delegation.
But I like the word empowerment.
I don't feel like we're delegating.
I feel like we're turning over the keys to thecastle.
It's a good thing.
Like, people are gonna grow because of that.
But they sort of feel like they have to do itall themselves.
A lot of people get promoted into leadership insome department division industry because they
were a great person that they're about tomanage.
(17:20):
They were an awesome engineer.
Now they're the leader of the other engineers.
They were a great whatever it was.
And and so they feel like I did this reallywell.
I've kind of got these strategies or thesethings that work.
And so when they see others doing itdifferently, I can't handle that.
I'll take it back and I'll own it.
And I can do it faster and better myself.
And so I guess along with this is kind of thesecond thing, they don't want people to make
(17:43):
mistakes or fail in the same ways they did.
And so instead of just saying, you know, youhire that person that I don't I wouldn't hire
if I were you, and we'll just see how it worksout for you.
One of us is going to learn something eitherI'm going be wrong or you're going to be wrong,
and then we'll talk about it.
They're not able to do that.
I guess this is in a scenario where they'remanaging other leaders.
They would say, Hey, I don't think you shouldhire them.
I would take this person.
(18:04):
Here's why I really want you to do it that way.
They they won't let people kind of discover forthemselves.
They feel like they have to answer questionsinstead of asking the questions.
And I think what this does unintentionally isit robs the people around them of their own
journey.
The people become dependent on the leader.
I've got to go ask my boss what they think Ishould do.
(18:24):
And so the leader will say, you should do thisbecause like, that's why I'm in leadership,
just to know what to do.
But I think more advanced leaders say, what doyou think we should do about this?
What have you come to so far?
What research did you do?
What questions have you asked?
Okay, yeah, why don't you try that?
Like, maybe it's not going to work out, butthen we're all going to learn something.
They don't want to go have other people gothrough that pain.
(18:45):
And I do think that cuts off a learningprocess.
And so again, I think more advanced leaders sayit's okay to fail.
It's okay to make mistakes.
It's okay to get uncomfortable and struggle andhave challenges.
And that's how I'm going to help people grow.
But I am not going to do things for people.
I'm going to let people bumble through itthemselves.
And I'm going to allow myself to beuncomfortable watching that because I got to
(19:05):
have a stronger team next year than I have thisyear.
And that's the way to make it happen.
So that's kind of the most common thing I atleast see when starting out.
Yeah, that's the difference between managingand leading.
Yes.
That's that line.
And every time you go up a level, right?
You have to get comfortable with the fact thatwas more tactical and that was leading, but
it's that discomfort, that dysregulation withinyourself because you're thinking this may put
(19:30):
us back.
But really, the point that what you're doing isthat whole concept of get them a fish or teach
them how to fish kind of thing becauseeventually, I mean, people may not do it the
way you do it.
Yes.
But that ability to problem solve and thenproblem solve and maybe even go back to their
other team members and be able to have thoseconversations and figure it out.
(19:51):
How valuable is that?
Because then they could kind of go back in therecesses of their mind to say, oh, that didn't
work so well, but this is better, or thisseemed to be a better approach with my team or
things like that.
That's right.
You have said it so well, better than I was.
And so I guess I'll summarize what I heard yousay, because I think it's so true.
Yeah, they probably manage and supervise morethan they lead and empower.
(20:12):
They focus on short term results more than thislong term journey.
Yeah, they get very wrapped up in tactics andkind of the day to day the weeds versus the
strategy and the bigger picture.
They don't make kind of this transition to,hey, the things I used to do now, I've got
people to do that for me and I need to let themdo that.
And I need to get out of the way they're notcomfortable with that.
(20:34):
Yeah, I think it's it's I just love the way youput it really good.
In reference to like I talked to a lot withburnt out leaders, right?
Leaders that are not taking care of themselves.
What are you finding out there with leadership?
Obviously, we know that the leaders in Swirl,we're in that bit of that huddle, like with you
guys, or just globally.
There's so much going on.
(20:55):
What are
you finding with the leaders that you'redealing with?
How are they dealing with their ability to copewith all that's on their plate?
You ask great questions.
This is a hot topic right now.
Guess I feel it's always been.
I do think a lot of people struggle withburnout and that's because they're afraid to
set boundaries with their boss or their companyor even themselves.
(21:17):
They're underestimating the importance of thatwhole complete person and that whole complete
life and balance.
They feel like they've got to be perfect andthey're people pleasing.
I can't leave early because we got this projectcoming up.
And what might that look like?
And what will people say about me if theynotice that I went out the door at 05:00 when
there was more work to be done?
(21:37):
And so I'm just going to kind of call my wifeand tell her I'll miss the little league game
that Billy's in because I just need to be hereright now.
They tell themselves these stories of like, itwon't always be this way.
I'll do Dip Better next month when the projector the initiative is over.
But then this becomes a pattern of behavior andthey're not practicing just saying no.
And I've got more important things to do at themoment.
(21:59):
Not that work isn't important, but today,Thursday afternoon, I have a kid playing his
first little league game.
Like I'm that's where I said I was gonna be,and I have to be that.
I'm going to be there.
They blow things off.
And then I think that becomes, yeah, a practicethat they engage in for years.
And then they have this kind of unhealthyrelationship with their work and they skip
vacations and they won't just walk out thedoor.
(22:21):
And I really respect I've had a few leadersthat just would go and say, like, I got a
family commitment.
My family is important to me.
It's actually number one.
It's more important than work in the greaterscheme of my life.
So I'm here my fifty hours or forty or whateverit is.
But in this moment, I'm not going to make acompromise.
And so you guys will figure it out.
I'll be back tomorrow.
Have a great night.
(22:42):
Don't call me.
And when the leader does that, I think otherpeople realize they can do that well.
Then they can fall in pattern and that movesright into my I remember when I was in
corporate, I took piano lessons with my son.
Oh, what's sweet.
Right?
And I was always hightailing it to try to getto piano lessons, oftentimes late, and I would
get the luck from him, right?
(23:03):
But would you say that sector impacts thecapacity for leaders to feel like they can take
the time because if it's normative not to and Iremember at my time, you know, it was kind of
starting to get there, Amy, but it wasn't thereyet.
(23:23):
Do you think that different sectors is dip eventoday is different about people taking that
time?
I do.
And I also think even within a sector, acompany can create a culture where it's like,
this is the norm.
And I guess I have these thoughts on it.
Regardless of it, like, hey.
It's it makes you feel that way.
I guess I feel we have this responsibility tobe the change that we want to see.
(23:46):
And if we work at it and say it's a dead end,I'm, you know, operating this way and then I'm
getting judged for it or talked to about it andHR is not supportive.
I just believe people should leave, whetherit's the company or the sector, but they should
kind of stand up for the overall life that theywant to have.
And this gets into a much deeper conversationof like life vision statements.
(24:06):
I'm a big believer in them having a purposestatement or a vision statement for your whole
life.
And if you say most people who do it, they dohave family personal hobbies and pursuits,
their faith or their religion on there kind oftowards the top.
And I'm just a big believer that if you've gota job or a work that is in constant conflict
with that or you're allowing it to be like,you're not in the right place.
(24:29):
And if you're talented, you can go somewhereelse and you'll have opportunities.
I do believe, even though it might be, youknow, sometimes sector specific or company
specific, great leaders in all industries canlead in ways where the amount of time it takes
to get things done actually goes down andpeople don't need to be there as much as we
think.
And a lot of people are highly inefficient withthe actual activities they're doing.
(24:53):
And if you really dig into like, what arepeople doing with their time?
It's a ton of busy work or it's a lot of goingback and fixing stuff because communication was
poor.
And so I just also think great leadership fixesthese problems.
Okay, we got to work our asses off.
I hope it's okay to say that word, but work ourbutts off to get this stuff done.
It's not that way.
You usually get 80% of your results from 20% ofyour efforts.
(25:13):
And so I think great leaders dig in and say,how are we spending our time?
And they find all sorts of red tape andbureaucracy and then they dismantle that and
then everybody can have a healthy life.
Maybe I'm an optimist, but those aren't mybeliefs.
No, and I think when I'm talking that I leftcorporate in 2010, right?
So at that time as a female executive, it wasdifferent.
And I had a young child as well.
(25:34):
But now, and I think obviously the pandemic putthe Bunsen burner under it for people to
recognize what people are juggling between homeand work.
You always feel split when you're a youngparent.
Yes.
And things like that, when they saw what peoplewere actually coping with, I would call it work
life effectiveness, there's no balance there.
If you're always kind of teeter totteringsomewhere along the way, And now people have
(25:59):
gone back to the office and stuff like that.
I think that they're going back with adifferent lens and we can't go backwards like
we were, thank goodness.
I went virtual in 02/2004.
So we were that was a long time ago.
Yeah.
I remember even being at home and my neighborswould think, what is she you know, kinda like,
what's she doing at home?
And I've been working and they didn't because Ilive in a little town on a little cul de sac.
(26:23):
And then you now you realize that generallypeople are we've adapted to a different
paradigm, which is phenomenal, I think.
And but now there's tensions between how do youkind of adjust back and how do you stay
connected, all those different kinds of issuesbased on the stage that we're in now.
Such great points.
(26:43):
And I I do feel that there's lot of negativethings that came out of the pandemic, the least
of which is not like I don't know if it's thefinal duff count.
Six million people passed away.
Awful.
But one of the positives that I think came outof it is it did show the world a different way
to work and companies did survive.
And in some cases through 2021, '22 had greatresults and their entire workforce was at home.
(27:04):
I was in a credit union space and we figuredout how to get all of our call center employees
working out of their own living rooms andbedrooms.
It took some technology workarounds.
But when it first came, I was kind of not theinnovator.
I was like, well, the call center staff's goingto have to come in because, I mean, they're on
the system and we like what they use and theprograms, but also like the just everything
(27:26):
that they're broadcasting over these phonelines.
They're not gonna be able to do that in theirown homes.
And sure enough, we got the whole call centerhome within a few months, and I'm listening to
the quality of the calls, I'm like, it's great.
It sounds exactly the same as them when they'rehere in the call center.
And that was like a big accomplishment.
I do see now the struggle for some companies isthey want everyone back in the office and
employees don't want to go because they'velearned how nice it is to at least a few days a
(27:49):
week not have to get up, press a suit, get inthe shower, drive, spend their gas, park, fight
traffic for a couple hours, and they can bejust as effective at home, throw a load of
laundry in on their lunch break or run thedishes in between a couple of calls, and their
life feels better and fuller.
And I see the companies struggling with thisthe most.
From my perspective, there's a lack of trust.
(28:11):
It's like we don't know what our employees aredoing unless we can watch them.
It's like, that's a huge foundational problemthat you're going to have, whether they're in
there in person or not, that there is not thisvalue exchange of we pay them.
And we believe that we've hired the righttalent.
And we believe that there is just as investedin our goals as we are.
And we don't need to watch them and see them totrust that they're going to do great work.
(28:33):
It's a There's a huge erosion there.
And in a lot of those organizations, you see alot of struggles right now.
Because like the concept is FaceTime when I wasin corporate was FaceTime, right?
Then you look up that concept basicallyfourteen, fifteen years later, and it's if you
don't have the capacity to allow others thatyou've employed, and you've brought them on
(28:54):
your team to do their jobs, then how are youcreating psychological safety?
And yeah, maybe things might trip along for abit and your numbers are going to be good, but
eventually people want to feel validatedbecause if you're second guessing me and you're
my leader, then there's going to be thatdeterioration in my capacity to believe that
(29:17):
you think I can do a good job, and theneverything goes south from there quite
literally.
Right?
I remember a stern talking to I got probablyten years ago.
I was at Bank of America, and I said to my bossat the time I'm managing 15 branches.
I've got, yeah, 15 branch managers that allhave their own office and I'm saying to her,
you know, with this one particular thing, I Ijust don't know if I can trust this manager of
(29:38):
mine to do that and she just went loose on me.
She says, Amy, you you pay this person almost a6 figure salary.
You've had, they've got the keys to the vault.
Their vault closes with over half a milliondollars every night.
You can't trust her.
Why the heck is she working for you?
If there's a real trust problem, there'sspecific things she's done to, you know, make
you question trust.
She should be out of disciplinary action andyou should be you you should have a wreck open
(30:00):
right now.
What do you trust there?
And I really had to think about that.
And my boss was absolutely right.
If I if things had specifically happened wheretrust had been broken and we couldn't rebuild
it, they just shouldn't be with me.
And if we do keep the people with us and wethink really highly of them, that's why we've
employed them, then like we've got to turn overthe kind of the keys to the castle and the
decision making powers to them and believe inthem.
(30:22):
I had another boss that said, you know, you'drate someone a four on their performance review
out of five, like an exceeds expectations, doesit ever make sense to make a decision for them?
And I was like, maybe sometimes.
And he was like, I think the answer should beno.
It's like you will.
You put them in a place of power.
You let them make their own decisions and youtrust they'll come talk to you when it's kind
of going off the rails and they'll enlist yourhelp when, you know, when they need to and ask
(30:45):
advice at the right times.
But you got to have some faith in them.
And I love this topic.
I think a lot of people really saw
Well, no, because I completely believe inpsychological safety, right?
So if you're saying, and I remember when I wasyoung, I was running a unit of the hospital and
I came in, of course, in both my psychologicalbackground into management.
These are all highly trained people, I'm theyoungest.
(31:07):
I'm half their age probably at this point.
And I went in and spoke to capacity and allthose things.
And because they had been led under a lack oftrust, that poured on to me as the new leader,
thinking that what's she up to?
I'm gonna scatter the liar until I see whatyou're doing.
And then I'm like, no, no, no.
(31:27):
This is actually you're gonna see with timethat this is who I am, and I truly believe that
it's possible.
Took two years.
Yep.
Two years of a lot and they were working hard,but it still took two years for them to just
settle down because previously, a couple of, Iguess, cycles of management were not trusting
(31:49):
of them and then they were second guessingtheir capacity all those So that corrosive
element is so destructive long term.
Absolutely.
We talk about childhood trauma a lot and thisis kind of a buzzword now in today's day and
age.
And I think really what you're talking about iskind of professional trauma of previous
leadership.
And I probably wouldn't call it leadership, butprevious management having instilled these
(32:11):
beliefs in them of I can't quite believe thisleader, like what they say they're going to do.
I'm going to need to see it.
I do have this belief.
It's a model I call Ebar experiences lead tobeliefs, beliefs lead to actions, actions lead
to results.
And so I think the reason it takes two years isbecause they had, I don't know how many years
of previous experiences, but developed somepretty strong beliefs of, you know, there is no
(32:32):
trust here.
And so someone comes in saying all the rightthings, but it's you're going to have to show
me and give me these new experiences, the paveover the old ones before I'm going to really
develop new beliefs.
And then you'll see my actions align with that.
I have had some teams that have been reallyscarred by micromanaging leaders that didn't
have their back, that would say one thing anddo another, or sometimes be actually out to get
(32:53):
them.
And they had to be very careful and watch theirevery step.
And I would show up and be like, Okay, well,don't know what happened, but I can see that's
going on or you're telling me about it.
Day in court here.
And they would be like, okay, but it would takemonths and months and upwards of two years
before you really could say we've recoveredfrom that.
And I've shown them something new and I thinkit's really important work.
(33:14):
So Bravo to you having that experience.
It's fun.
Like you used the word fun earlier.
I think it's fun to actually help peoplerecover and develop.
Yeah.
Because, you know, and and what they did wasafter a while, I think I had stayed there in
that that management role, and I was young.
Right?
It was in my twenties.
Yeah.
Right?
Grad school.
And at the time I had left and I was consultingwith them, they were a self functioning team.
(33:37):
I love it.
Right?
But it took some instrumental things.
I remember that one of the first things that Idid, which was so insignificant, but I got them
it was Christmas time, and I got them all redshirts that set the department and, you know,
had a little logo that told me something abouttheir personality and their name.
(33:58):
We had a little get together off-site, and thatwas like it was about two years in the making,
and then it's almost like they finally said,Okay, we can breathe.
Yeah.
We can just breathe.
And I think that's ultimately what people aretrying to do as they work in environments where
they're trying to make a difference and theyfeel like they're being pushed the wrong way of
(34:18):
achieving good results for themselves.
I love it.
So this has been, I think you and I have, likewe said before, we have alignment and tell us
what you're up to.
I know you also do you speak as well and you doother coaching.
So tell everybody a little bit more about yourbusiness and where they can get a hold of you
(34:40):
Amy.
Absolutely.
Okay.
I I just a quick what am I doing now?
I am working on a third book.
It's called couldn't run a mile.
I did run my two hundred and fifty fifth halfmarathon last weekend, and everyone always
says, wow, that's so many of them, but it wasonly ten years ago.
I could not make it to the end of the blockwithout running.
And I just have developed this really biginterest, passion need to put in a book, what
(35:03):
it was that made the difference betweencouldn't get to the end of the block, could not
run a mile to now almost 15,000 miles ofrunning later.
So that's what I'm working on.
Amazing.
Amazing.
I have to read that.
I've never ran over my years, but it has beenmy thing when my son was young.
It was the best investment of time.
So I knew what a five ks was and I had theexact roots.
(35:26):
Probably a little bit different from me.
I'd be like, okay, I know I'm leaving now.
I know I could just put on my shoes and getthere and it'll be done like it, you know, I
wasn't doing too bad back then, twenty twominutes or so, probably slowed by your
standards.
Oh wow, no, I But
I knew exactly.
And I was like, gotta just breathe throughthis.
But I'm more the type, I like CrossFit stufflike that.
But
Oh, wow.
(35:47):
Know, to me that's you know?
And but it's it I would love to hear the stepsof that.
So Yeah.
Everybody thinking about and it's not I wouldsay it's not just about running.
It's about It is not.
Something that's difficult.
Right?
You know, it's most of it is mental and it was,probably the book is sort of turning into, like
these 10 principles and almost all of them aredecisions I made from a mindset standpoint of
(36:08):
like, hey, it's okay if it's hard and struggleis a good thing.
And not all days are created equal.
You can go out and have a great day.
It isn't linear.
It's gonna be all over the map with progress.
So it's all things that would be applicable topeople's relationships and their professional
lives.
But it did make the difference of why I finallywas able to stay with running and then,
continue it in the relationship I formed withhow I thought about it.
(36:29):
But it's the same stuff that we need to know atwork and apply in a relationship.
So there's that.
Amymchambers.com is where people can find me.
There's a calendar link on there to scheduletime with me or a free call.
There's also a link on there to both of mybooks.
We've talked a lot today, which was great aboutthe leadership and business book.
The second book was all about personalhappiness and joy and the relationship we have
(36:51):
with ourselves.
And so Virtues 15 and Habits 15 takes 15% offeach book respectively.
But people can learn more about my one on onecoaching, leadership consulting that I do with
small businesses, buy the books, everything isthere.
Amymchambers.com.
So that's where people can reach me.
I'm also on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook,LinkedIn, all the things all under Amy
(37:13):
Chambers.
I'll find them both.
So just send them your So what am I takingaway?
I'm taking away that ultimately, you know, whenpeople are in leadership positions, they're
learning like everybody else when they'restarting off.
And what they need is someone to guide them andreassure them when they hit their blind spots,
(37:33):
because we all have them.
We all have things we're phenomenal at, and wehave things that we're not so good at.
And instead of looking at it as being adetriment to as the leader to say, how is it
that I can engage this individual to to movethem along?
It's gonna be uncomfortable to what Amy'spoint, but holding the space for them so that
(37:54):
when they do trip up and bump their knee andfall down and don't feel good, they're gonna
learn from it versus you telling them exactlyhow they should have steered through that
decision.
And at year end performance, you can have thosereflective conversations, which would probably
give them much more depth from that person.
And then their learning plans and stuff likethat would probably be a natural extension of
(38:17):
what they've learned.
So, Amy, thanks again for spending the timewith us.
Everyone, again, thanks so much for hanging outwith us.
If you're not subscribed, please go on andsubscribe to the podcast.
Guests like Amy are possible because you go inand you subscribe to the podcast.
And as you know, I'm starting a new course onthe ROR book, and it's starting mid June.
(38:38):
So please reach out.
We can jump on a call.
I can give you all the steps.
It's a live course with live Thanks
for tuning in to Authentic living with Roxanne,creating the space for positive healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitroxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
(39:01):
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Coaching, and I think the spots are filling uppretty quick.
So, again, Amy, thanks so much.
And for everybody, thanks again, and we'll chatwith you next week.
Take care.
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